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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson.

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Speaker 2: I'm a journalist who's spent the last twenty five years

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Speaker 2: writing about true crime.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 3: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 2: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 2: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 3: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 3: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 2: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 2: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 3: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 2: This is buried Bones.

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Speaker 3: Hey Paul, Hey Kate, how are you.

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Speaker 1: I'm doing well.

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Speaker 2: I am tasking you with doing the summary from last

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Speaker 2: week's episode of The Mess that is in the Colorado

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Speaker 2: Territory in eighteen sixty three.

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Speaker 1: It's awful.

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Speaker 2: Tell me what you remember, and then I'll tell you

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Speaker 2: you were wrong about.

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Speaker 1: All of that. Just kidding you know.

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Speaker 3: So I have to look at my notes from last week.

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Speaker 3: But so it appears in March of eighteen sixty three,

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Speaker 3: we start having a series of men being robbed and killed.

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Speaker 3: The first one Franklin. He's on, you know, driving a

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Speaker 3: stagecoach with horses down to a sawmill, and he's found

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Speaker 3: shot through the heart and has a cross carved into him.

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Speaker 3: And then in short order, we have a series of

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Speaker 3: other men that are being killed, either being shot or

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Speaker 3: an axe has been used on them over the course

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Speaker 3: of you knowmultiple weeks. But relative to the distances that

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Speaker 3: these crimes are occurring, the offender is moving around and

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Speaker 3: is attacking in short order, and at least at this

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Speaker 3: point in time, it appears that this is an offender

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Speaker 3: that is committing these crimes for financial motive. But I'm

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Speaker 3: not entirely convinced about that. And so that's where I'm

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Speaker 3: curious to see details or hear details about other crimes

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Speaker 3: and ultimately you know who was committing these crimes.

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Speaker 1: Yep.

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Speaker 2: And let's go through just the victims, just to remind everybody,

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Speaker 2: because sometimes I have to go back and say people's names.

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Speaker 2: So the first victim we have is Franklin. He was

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Speaker 2: at his sawmill and that was not very far from

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Speaker 2: his home in Kingan City.

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Speaker 1: Then we had the next.

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Speaker 2: Day, Henry, and he was the one who was supposed

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Speaker 2: to be cooking inside the cabin. He was found with

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Speaker 2: you know, axe hacks all over his body and he

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Speaker 2: was shot.

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Speaker 1: Then we have.

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Speaker 2: March thirty first, which is eleven days later, we have

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Speaker 2: John Addleton and John was murdered at away station and

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Speaker 2: it looks like rob the place was tossed completely.

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Speaker 1: Then we have about eight.

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Speaker 2: Days later after that, much further north, we have Jacob

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Speaker 2: Binkley and Abram Shoop and they are out of campsite

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Speaker 2: and they are murdered. And the sequencing is difficult in

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Speaker 2: that one, but it looks like Abram tried to get away.

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Speaker 2: And what I thought was interesting Paul's it looks like

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Speaker 2: there's only one shot per victim, and I don't know

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Speaker 2: what that means. So it says, you know that Addleton

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Speaker 2: was shot in the head, John was shot in the head,

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Speaker 2: Henry was shot through the head, also forehead, and then

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Speaker 2: you have Franklin who was shot through the heart. Now

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Speaker 2: we have Jacob who was shot in the back. And

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Speaker 2: then Shoop was found at the bottom of the gulch.

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Speaker 2: He was not shot, he was stabbed. They didn't say

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Speaker 2: anything about an axe. So is this somebody who is

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Speaker 2: just a really good shot or I mean one shot

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Speaker 2: for each of these victims. It sounds like except for

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Speaker 2: one of them.

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Speaker 3: Well, I think just like what I was talking about

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Speaker 3: last week, with these sounds like black powder weapons. You know,

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Speaker 3: I'm not convinced that they would be able to identify

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Speaker 3: the type of weapon. You know, it's not like they're

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Speaker 3: looking at, you know, the general rifling characteristics that we

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Speaker 3: look at today in order to determine making model of

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Speaker 3: the weapon that fired a projectile. These are black powder guns,

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Speaker 3: and it very well may be that the weapon that

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Speaker 3: the offenders using only could fire one round before being reloaded,

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Speaker 3: and it takes a while to reload these black powder weapons,

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Speaker 3: so that may be just a practical reason why there's

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Speaker 3: only one shot. And these weapons are not accurate relative

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Speaker 3: to modern firearms. So these victims particularly, I believe it

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Speaker 3: was you know, Henry who shot inside you know, this

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Speaker 3: cabin and he shot in the forehead. That would suggest

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Speaker 3: because of the inaccuracy of these weapons. You know, Henry's

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Speaker 3: not being sniped from a distance. He the offender is

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Speaker 3: probably within that cabin and at close range and is

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Speaker 3: able to shoot him in the forehead. So you know,

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Speaker 3: that's my sense with the gun. You know, the question,

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Speaker 3: of course, is is okay, So why do we see

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Speaker 3: a firearm, an axe, and a knife being used across

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Speaker 3: the series so far. Does the fact that you know,

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Speaker 3: two different weapons are used with the last case that

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Speaker 3: you talked about with Jacob and was Abram yep, yep,

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Speaker 3: Jacob and Abram, you know, does that suggest that maybe

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Speaker 3: you have two offenders? It could, however, a single offender

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Speaker 3: could possibly accomplish the same thing depending on the.

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Speaker 2: Sequence, you know, and the other ones. You've got one

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Speaker 2: person there who is the victim, and this is the

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Speaker 2: first time that we've seen two victims at the same time.

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Speaker 2: So the escalation, I know is not the right word,

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Speaker 2: but the development of what is happening with each of

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Speaker 2: these murders is interesting.

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Speaker 3: Well, I think, you know, probably the only thing I

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Speaker 3: would I would draw upon the fact that the last

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Speaker 3: case had had two men that were victims, just tells

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Speaker 3: me that the offender had the confidence. If it's a

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Speaker 3: single offender had the confidence to be able to take

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Speaker 3: on two men in order to commit the crime. Chances

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Speaker 3: are it's not like the offender is thinking, oh, I

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Speaker 3: got to go out and find two men for the

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Speaker 3: next case, you know, That's not what's going on. This

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Speaker 3: is probably a situation in which these two men may

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Speaker 3: have been stumbled across by the offender. You know, they

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Speaker 3: were truly victims of opportunity, and the offender size them

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Speaker 3: up and goes, I can deal with them with the

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Speaker 3: control aspects that I have with the gun and the knife.

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Speaker 3: But then you also have the possibility of two offenders

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Speaker 3: going yep, let's do this. It just happened that Abraham

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Speaker 3: and Jacob were out camping together and they were sized

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Speaker 3: up by the offender as being Okay, these are targets,

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Speaker 3: and they'd likely have money or any other things of

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Speaker 3: financial value that the offender wanted.

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Speaker 2: It's just so interesting because I have you ringing in

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Speaker 2: my head, take out the male first, right, if you're

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Speaker 2: attacking a whole family, you want the most aggressive person

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Speaker 2: who could fight back, who's going to be the biggest threat,

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Speaker 2: to take out the biggest threat first. And here they

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Speaker 2: are or here this is happening, you know, with people

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Speaker 2: who are just you're only attacking big threats, and these

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Speaker 2: are all young guys too well.

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Speaker 3: But you also have to take it like, right now,

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Speaker 3: we know nothing about Jacob and Abram in terms of

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Speaker 3: their physical characteristics. You know, it's possible the offender is

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Speaker 3: looking at these two men, going, well, that's the alpha male.

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Speaker 3: I have to take him out first, you know. So

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Speaker 3: that aspect, that processing aspect by the offenders is still

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Speaker 3: in play. We just don't know.

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Speaker 2: Well, let's move over, because I did give you quite

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Speaker 2: a bit teas. I will say, we have five men

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Speaker 2: dead in about three weeks over upwards of one hundred miles.

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Speaker 2: It sounds like there's been some traveling. So let's talk

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Speaker 2: about what happens next. I told you that, you know,

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Speaker 2: we have somebody else who has been killed, and we

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Speaker 2: have also a survivor for the first time. So about

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Speaker 2: three weeks after the murder at the campground in the

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Speaker 2: same area, there's a man named Edward Metcalf. He's leading

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Speaker 2: Oxen through a mountain pass. Earlier in the day there

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Speaker 2: was an acquaintance of his name, Bill Carter, who had

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Speaker 2: passed Edward on the road. They were going in the

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Speaker 2: same direction. Later in the day, when he's returning going

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Speaker 2: on the same road, he sees Bill's body on a

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Speaker 2: snowbank on the side of the road. So this is

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Speaker 2: the guy who passed him. So Bill had been shot

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Speaker 2: and attacked with an axe. The overcoat that Bill had

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Speaker 2: been wearing and Edward saw it when he passed him.

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Speaker 1: Is gone.

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Speaker 2: So Edward is trying to figure out what the hell

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Speaker 2: happened to his friend. He's sitting on his wagon. The

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Speaker 2: Oxen are still attached. He is shot in the chest.

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Speaker 2: On the left hand side.

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Speaker 3: Edward is Edward.

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Speaker 2: Yes, he's looking at his friend's dead body on a

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Speaker 2: little snowbank, and he is shot. The bullet must have

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Speaker 2: gone through to his heart. But Edward had been carrying

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Speaker 2: a bundle of mail and a copy of the Emancipation

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Speaker 2: Proclamation in his breast pocket, so the bullet got this

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Speaker 2: is just what you were talking about before. The bullet

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Speaker 2: doesn't go through, It hits the Emancipation Proclamation, and when

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Speaker 2: the Oxen, when they hear the gun shot, flip out

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Speaker 2: and they bolt, and there's a second shot that misses Edward.

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Speaker 2: Now Edward's wagon hits a rock. He's that poor guy.

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Speaker 2: He's bounced out onto the ground. He hears nearby shots

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Speaker 2: and it sounds like he sees two men in the

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Speaker 2: dist Another person also sees or hears the shooting and

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Speaker 2: rides into fair Play to get help. There's a party

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Speaker 2: that comes to the area. They find Edward he is alive,

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Speaker 2: and he survives, and they also recover Bill's body. So

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Speaker 2: two men, if we believe these are our offenders, but

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Speaker 2: there's no one else around except somebody hearing a shot

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Speaker 2: and then going to fair play.

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Speaker 3: So Bill is killed, and you know, he's shot and

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Speaker 3: attacked with the acts. And then when Edward comes across

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Speaker 3: Bill's body, and I'm not sure you know what kind

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Speaker 3: of time frame we're talking about, you know, in terms

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Speaker 3: of Edward and Bill passing each other, and then Edward

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Speaker 3: circling back round, but the offender is still in the

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Speaker 3: same area, but Edward's not seeing the offender and he

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Speaker 3: gets shot in the chest. So now this suggests that

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Speaker 3: you have an offender who is shooting from a distance,

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Speaker 3: possibly undercover. And then Edward says that he saw two men.

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Speaker 3: So now possibly we're dealing with two offenders. One offender

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Speaker 3: that is armed with a firearm of some sort and

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Speaker 3: is competent enough to be able to shoot and hit

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Speaker 3: a target from a distance. And I'm wondering if there

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Speaker 3: is a rifle being used versus a handgun. But then

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Speaker 3: you also have another offender with Bill that's possibly armed

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Speaker 3: with an axe, So I could see where Now if

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Speaker 3: you have let's say, these two offenders that are working

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Speaker 3: in concert, where you have one offender that in essence

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Speaker 3: stays concealed and is armed with a firearm and the

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Speaker 3: other offender is interacting with them and is armed with

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Speaker 3: a knife end or an axe. It's not necessarily that way,

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Speaker 3: But now it's like, okay, you know, did the offenders

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Speaker 3: after they killed Bill? Did they stay knowing that there

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Speaker 3: would be other victims that would be passing through, like

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Speaker 3: this is a thoroughfare, and so now they're just low

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Speaker 3: and wait for the next victim, and it happens to

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Speaker 3: be Edward. Yes.

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Speaker 2: And Edward makes things a little more complicated by saying

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Speaker 2: he did not get a good look at the attackers,

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Speaker 2: but good enough to say he believes that they were

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Speaker 2: both of Mexican descent, which is not helpful because that's

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Speaker 2: a large portion of Colorado.

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Speaker 3: But still, okay, you now have these men of Mexican

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Speaker 3: descent that had a good life going for them, and

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Speaker 3: then that life is disrupted by these white settlers. And

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Speaker 3: now you have these Mexican men that are basically becoming

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Speaker 3: missionary offenders. They have a mission and they're committing that

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Speaker 3: anger italiatory type of offender. Where Edward and Bill aren't

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Speaker 3: necessarily men that they had any interpersonal angst about this

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Speaker 3: is that they represented the white settler and now they

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Speaker 3: are taking their anger and retaliating against anybody that is

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Speaker 3: of that white settler type of characteristic.

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Speaker 2: Well, so now we're thinking that this might be a

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Speaker 2: switch from robbery victims of opportunity to targeting specific types

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Speaker 2: of me. You're right, they're all the same demographic. There

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Speaker 2: are men who are clearly you know, they're working and

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Speaker 2: living in residence, and they're working at sawmills and driving

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Speaker 2: oxen and everything. The only thing taken I said from

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Speaker 2: Bill was an overcoat. But they might have felt like

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Speaker 2: they didn't have any time. Clearly, this is a road

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Speaker 2: that's traveled. If you've got two men who were passing

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Speaker 2: each other, So there's that too. Maybe they didn't have

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Speaker 2: an opportunity. Sure, if it is vengeance, then robbery is

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Speaker 2: the minor motive or is it a motive at all?

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Speaker 2: And it's just like, well, I might as well take

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Speaker 2: this to make my life a little bit easier. If

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Speaker 2: there's money or an overcoat to be warming, is that

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Speaker 2: what that would be?

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Speaker 3: Sure, the financial aspect of these crimes may be secondary

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Speaker 3: if this is the if the motive is truly retaliating

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Speaker 3: against a white settler, and there may be an undercurrent

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Speaker 3: by the uh these offenders that if we do this,

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Speaker 3: we're going to drive out the white settlers are going

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Speaker 3: to realize this isn't a place they want to be.

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Speaker 3: We're going to scare them away. But I think that

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Speaker 3: the financial side, you know, they're just taking advantage of Okay,

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Speaker 3: now we have access to potentially money or whatever else

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Speaker 3: it is, in order to be able to enhance their

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Speaker 3: lifestyle in whatever way. And it sounds like they're traveling

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Speaker 3: around a lot. You know, they're probably going to need

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Speaker 3: money as they stop in various towns in order to

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Speaker 3: get food or whatever. I don't know if they have

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Speaker 3: horses with them. This is a a version. If this

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Speaker 3: is the reason they're they're doing this is because of

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Speaker 3: this vengeance. As you said, this retaliatory type of attack.

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Speaker 3: I mean, this is a type of serial killer. It's

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Speaker 3: not fantasy motivated. It's very different, a different type of criminal.

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Speaker 3: But you know, in some ways, the DC snipers are

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Speaker 3: kind of popping into my head, you know, in terms

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Speaker 3: of sort of the psychology of the reason to commit

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Speaker 3: the crimes. So maybe this is what's going on, But

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Speaker 3: until we identify these offenders right now, I mean, Edward,

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Speaker 3: is he's being shot at, you know, is he is

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Speaker 3: he actually accurate about these guys? Are of Mexican descent?

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Speaker 3: Are they actually his you know, his attackers, you know,

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Speaker 3: if he's seeing them in a distance.

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Speaker 2: So now we have six dead and Edward who survived.

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Speaker 2: And now there's that, you know, Edward's a witness, so

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Speaker 2: obviously whoever's doing this knows this. But the next day

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Speaker 2: we have more victims. We have two men again, Frederick

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Speaker 2: Lehmann and Soul Sega. They're found northeast of fair Play.

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Speaker 2: So there's still saying the offender or offenders to say, well,

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Speaker 2: let's just go at this point with offenders, because Edward

279
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Speaker 2: says he saw two people, So if he's confident enough

280
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Speaker 2: to say of Mexican descent, he's clearly competent enough to

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Speaker 2: say two people. So they are staying in this area.

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Speaker 2: Frederick and Soul had been traveling with a group, though

283
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Speaker 2: they were a large distance ahead of the rest of

284
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Speaker 2: the caravan, so no one saw this attack. And when

285
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Speaker 2: they were discovered, the bodies were still warm.

286
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Speaker 1: There's a little bit of.

287
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Speaker 2: Legend mixed in with fact tears what Ali says, the

288
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Speaker 2: way that people tell the story. One of these two

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Speaker 2: men had a crucifix carved in his chest. The other

290
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Speaker 2: had his head crushed in with a rock. Newspaper reports

291
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Speaker 2: say that they had been attacked. Both of them had

292
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Speaker 2: been attacked with an axe. And we also know from

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Speaker 2: an interview with one of the people who discovered these

294
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Speaker 2: men that Lehman's paper collars. So that is Frederick's paper collar.

295
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Speaker 2: So that was the paper that they would keep underneath

296
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Speaker 2: their collar, I believe, like from his shirt.

297
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Speaker 1: Do you know what a paper collar is?

298
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Speaker 3: No, you know, I'm wondering if it's something to help

299
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Speaker 3: keep the collar, Yeah, kind of shaped, right.

300
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Speaker 2: So a paper collar in the eighteen hundreds were detachable,

301
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Speaker 2: and they were designed to be worn with shirts and

302
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Speaker 2: or a practical solution to the labor and sits of

303
00:17:26,320 --> 00:17:30,199
Speaker 2: task of laundering and ironing. One little account said, you

304
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Speaker 2: neither need a wife or you need the money to

305
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Speaker 2: have them launder.

306
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Speaker 1: You need to have a wife, you need to have.

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Speaker 2: Wandered anyway, back to this part. The reason the paper

308
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Speaker 2: collar is important is because Frederick's paper collar was nailed

309
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Speaker 2: to a nearby tree and somebody wrote something on it

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Speaker 2: in Spanish. In English it says vengeance is to be

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Speaker 2: reaked upon Americans as a sacrifice to the Virgin.

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Speaker 3: So now, I mean, this is just spilling the beans.

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Speaker 3: The offenders are sending a message, right, and they're they're clarifying.

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Speaker 3: It was somewhat vague with the cross on the first victim, Frederick,

315
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Speaker 3: you know, but now they're letting it be known why

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Speaker 3: they're committing these crimes. And it's kind of what I was.

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Speaker 3: I was thinking. They have felt slighted by the white

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Speaker 3: settlers moving in. They are vindictive about that. They're they're

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Speaker 3: retaliating against anybody that's representative of, you know, the reason

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Speaker 3: why their lifestyle had changed. And you know, the cross.

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Speaker 3: One of these last victims had a you said, a

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Speaker 3: crucifix carved, which that's cross, right, But crucifix if if

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Speaker 3: I'm right. Being born and raised Catholic, obviously we know

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Speaker 3: that individuals of Mexican descent there was it was a

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Speaker 3: strong Catholic background. And so now sort of to your

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Speaker 3: point in the first episode, is that the cross is

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Speaker 3: indicative of their religious philosophy. Now, why only certain victims

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Speaker 3: have a cross? You know, that would be interesting to

329
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Speaker 3: find out. You know, is this because there's something about

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Speaker 3: that particular victim that they felt compelled that they needed

331
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Speaker 3: a cross, you know, for whatever reason to save their soul.

332
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Speaker 3: Who knows, or was it just kind of random as

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Speaker 3: to who they carve crosses it? But this is now

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Speaker 3: just showing, Okay, the motive of these crimes is anger retaliatory.

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Speaker 2: You know.

336
00:19:35,119 --> 00:19:39,720
Speaker 3: And now they're letting them know. They're they're writing in Spanish,

337
00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:43,720
Speaker 3: they are indicating that they have a certain religious philosophy

338
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Speaker 3: and they take they have a certain victimology that they're

339
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Speaker 3: going after, you know, and this is no different than

340
00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:52,920
Speaker 3: how we evaluate offenders today. You know. This is where

341
00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:55,200
Speaker 3: now you see, based off of these crimes, you can

342
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Speaker 3: start to piece together who your suspect pool might be.

343
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Speaker 2: Well, right now, the suspect pool would be all of

344
00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:07,600
Speaker 2: the people of Mexican descent in Colorado Territory, which I

345
00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:12,840
Speaker 2: think once we start figuring out you know, who is where,

346
00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:15,720
Speaker 2: and you're going to need some dumb luck in some

347
00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:20,200
Speaker 2: ways for this to come together. So particularly with Abram Shoop,

348
00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:22,760
Speaker 2: but with the last of these men. Now we have

349
00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:26,400
Speaker 2: a total of eight men dead, one man who survived

350
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Speaker 2: when Edward's story comes out, about two men of Mexican descent.

351
00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:34,880
Speaker 2: Now law enforcement really starts to take action, and there's

352
00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:39,200
Speaker 2: an organized militia that starts to come together. So Fredericknsoll

353
00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:42,640
Speaker 2: live in an area called California Gulch. It's somewhat more

354
00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:46,399
Speaker 2: populous than any of these other areas, and there's a

355
00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:51,200
Speaker 2: big community of prospectors who come together. So about seventeen men,

356
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Speaker 2: led by a man named John mccannon, volunteered to spearhead

357
00:20:55,359 --> 00:20:58,640
Speaker 2: this investigation. I don't know what spurs this, or if

358
00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:02,080
Speaker 2: it's simply the number keeps piling up, or if it's

359
00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:06,080
Speaker 2: Frederick and Sole being connected to this particular area that

360
00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:11,000
Speaker 2: has a large prospector population. But this really sends people

361
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Speaker 2: into a fury and they start to gather these militias.

362
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Speaker 3: What do you think, Well, well, I think there's there's

363
00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:21,959
Speaker 3: multiple layers as to you know, the reason for the

364
00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:25,520
Speaker 3: prospectors to band together, and part of it is just

365
00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:29,760
Speaker 3: probably a simple economic reason. If you have, you know,

366
00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:35,719
Speaker 3: fear starting to interfere with their ability to make money.

367
00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:38,320
Speaker 3: You know they now are going we have to stop

368
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Speaker 3: whoever's doing this. Now, do you know, is there a

369
00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:48,280
Speaker 3: an aspect of a US versus them? Where Now they're going, oh,

370
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Speaker 3: this is somebody from Mexico that's doing this to us,

371
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Speaker 3: you know, and we have to put an end to this.

372
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Speaker 3: And so they're banding together recognizing that there's a threat.

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Speaker 2: Well, they are first of all trying to secure the

374
00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:06,920
Speaker 2: areas that have already seen murders. So they are trying

375
00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:10,640
Speaker 2: to lock down and guard Canyon City, and they're trying

376
00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:12,919
Speaker 2: to lock down and guard fair Play. Of course, at

377
00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:15,239
Speaker 2: the same time, you know, they're trying to figure out

378
00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:20,480
Speaker 2: who did this. So John mccannon is the main person here,

379
00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:25,840
Speaker 2: the main investigator, and they realize that Edward's description and

380
00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:30,480
Speaker 2: the violence of these crimes might match the description of

381
00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:33,800
Speaker 2: two men who robbed a wagon that had been carrying

382
00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:37,840
Speaker 2: supplies to a priest in New Mexico late last year.

383
00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:42,040
Speaker 2: So we were in March, end of March eighteen sixty three,

384
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Speaker 2: so they're talking about probably December of eighteen sixty two.

385
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Speaker 1: Now this is in.

386
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Speaker 2: New Mexico, but remember the border thing, so it's New

387
00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:55,600
Speaker 2: Mexico ish, So it's New Mexico and the New Colorado border.

388
00:22:56,080 --> 00:23:00,200
Speaker 2: So this happened on or near the San Luis Valley.

389
00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:02,560
Speaker 2: In that incident, there was a man who had been

390
00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:06,720
Speaker 2: driving a wagon and he had been able to identify

391
00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:09,879
Speaker 2: exactly who robbed him. And the priest writes to the

392
00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:13,480
Speaker 2: authorities at Fort Garland, which is a military base in

393
00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:17,600
Speaker 2: southern Colorado, and the man knew who these two guys were.

394
00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:21,280
Speaker 2: The guys robbed them, and he says to the priest

395
00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:25,159
Speaker 2: it was these two brothers, and they're named vivian and

396
00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:29,959
Speaker 2: Filippe Espinoza. And this is actually a pretty famous story.

397
00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:34,560
Speaker 2: The Espinoza family had been punished for this robbery terribly.

398
00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:38,600
Speaker 2: They lived in a plaza called San Rafael. In January

399
00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:42,240
Speaker 2: of sixty three, so probably about a month after the

400
00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:45,040
Speaker 2: robbery and a few months before the killings, a USh

401
00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:49,000
Speaker 2: marshall brought sixteen soldiers to their plaza to arrest them.

402
00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:52,199
Speaker 2: And at first they tried to get them to come peacefully,

403
00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:57,320
Speaker 2: but Vivianne and Felipe, you know, don't fall for this story.

404
00:23:57,600 --> 00:23:59,720
Speaker 2: The US marshalls said, we're recruiting for.

405
00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:00,840
Speaker 1: The un army.

406
00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:04,240
Speaker 2: The US marshall says, you know, okay, we can come

407
00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:06,960
Speaker 2: back tomorrow because they didn't want to cause a big

408
00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:10,080
Speaker 2: ruckus and maybe be outnumbered. And so when they do

409
00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:13,720
Speaker 2: come back looking for these two brothers, they had been

410
00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:17,200
Speaker 2: barricaded in the back room of one of the houses.

411
00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:21,159
Speaker 2: There's gunfire and one of the soldiers is killed and

412
00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:23,600
Speaker 2: the guys jump a wall. The brothers jump a wall

413
00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:27,159
Speaker 2: and they escape, but that leaves their families in the

414
00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:29,880
Speaker 2: hands of very angry soldiers. At least one of their

415
00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:33,520
Speaker 2: houses is burned down. The soldiers confiscated all of their

416
00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:37,200
Speaker 2: property in their livestock, which is eleven cows and oxen

417
00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:40,680
Speaker 2: and a steer, four beds, one trunk, two water buckets,

418
00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:44,720
Speaker 2: and leaves the surviving family with nothing. Both of the

419
00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:47,760
Speaker 2: brothers are married, so it's the wives and children who

420
00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:50,640
Speaker 2: have to deal with all of this when the brothers

421
00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:54,560
Speaker 2: come back after escaping this confrontation with the marshals. So

422
00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:57,960
Speaker 2: this is the story, and this is what people think

423
00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:01,480
Speaker 2: triggered this murderous rampage, which would just start, you know,

424
00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:02,480
Speaker 2: a month or two later.

425
00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:05,000
Speaker 1: So as far as motive, yeah, what do you think?

426
00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:09,320
Speaker 3: You know? I thought maybe their motive was land dispute,

427
00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:14,880
Speaker 3: but the way that they were handled, obviously was brutal. Right,

428
00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:17,760
Speaker 3: and you could see where the anger would be. Now

429
00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:20,840
Speaker 3: they brought the attention to themselves because they went out

430
00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:24,520
Speaker 3: and committed that that robbery. But this is just where

431
00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:27,880
Speaker 3: now they in their own minds, have been wronged and

432
00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:31,760
Speaker 3: they are now taking that anger out on people who

433
00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:36,919
Speaker 3: are representative of the soldiers and the you know, the

434
00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:40,920
Speaker 3: white settlers in terms of who's impacted their lives personally.

435
00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:44,640
Speaker 2: And one thing that I thought was interesting was when

436
00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:47,639
Speaker 2: they robbed the you know, the guy who was driving

437
00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:50,000
Speaker 2: the wagon to deliver these supplies to a priest.

438
00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:50,840
Speaker 1: They didn't kill him.

439
00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:53,320
Speaker 2: I don't know if they had killed anybody before this,

440
00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:57,040
Speaker 2: but that was not something that investigators found at all.

441
00:25:57,200 --> 00:25:59,560
Speaker 2: It seemed to start with the what you had said

442
00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:02,720
Speaker 2: sort of happened with the US marshall and you know,

443
00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:05,920
Speaker 2: destroying all of their property. There's one account that says

444
00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:09,200
Speaker 2: that Felipe wanted to avenge the land theft, that he

445
00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:11,400
Speaker 2: just felt like all of their neighbors were having their

446
00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:15,680
Speaker 2: land taken away from them by the white settlers. So yeah,

447
00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:18,600
Speaker 2: I mean, we're right there. That is that is what

448
00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:19,360
Speaker 2: sounds like.

449
00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:21,000
Speaker 1: Is the motive for all of this.

450
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:24,199
Speaker 2: I always come back to this the idea that when

451
00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:27,840
Speaker 2: when people think this is such an extraordinary case, one

452
00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:30,639
Speaker 2: that happened, you know, two months ago, and they're not,

453
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:32,719
Speaker 2: I mean, these are the kinds of cases that happened.

454
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:35,439
Speaker 2: This is not a spree killing though, right, No, what

455
00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:38,520
Speaker 2: would the category be for this. They're killing people they

456
00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:41,360
Speaker 2: don't know with spaces apart. But it's not the traditional

457
00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:43,280
Speaker 2: serial killer. Do you still think serial killer?

458
00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:46,400
Speaker 3: Well, I wouldn't use the term serial killer, even though

459
00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:49,560
Speaker 3: I mentioned it is a form of serial killer. But

460
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:52,520
Speaker 3: by definition I would not characterize what they're doing as

461
00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:57,200
Speaker 3: being serial killers. That they are committing a series of crimes.

462
00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:00,840
Speaker 3: This is an essence, you know, a series of robberies,

463
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:03,280
Speaker 3: it's like what we see today. But they're committing a

464
00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:07,639
Speaker 3: series of homicides and there is a robbery component. But

465
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:09,679
Speaker 3: I think you know, when you start talking about the

466
00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:12,960
Speaker 3: financial aspect of this crime, they feel that they've been

467
00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:17,520
Speaker 3: wronged and there you know, their friends, their family, they

468
00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:21,120
Speaker 3: you know, the other people of Mexican descent have been

469
00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:25,600
Speaker 3: financially wronged. So the financial motive of the crimes, in

470
00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:30,240
Speaker 3: the homicides that they're committing, may be representative in their

471
00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:32,879
Speaker 3: minds to what part of the wrong was done to

472
00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:35,800
Speaker 3: the people that they care about. I also just think

473
00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:39,040
Speaker 3: it's practical. You know, they're away from home, they're marauding

474
00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:41,680
Speaker 3: around the countryside, you know, you think about it. I'm

475
00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:44,280
Speaker 3: sure they're probably pretty good at living off the land,

476
00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:48,600
Speaker 3: you know, finding food, you know, finding shelter, But there

477
00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:52,480
Speaker 3: is still probably in eighteen sixties, even though they're living

478
00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:54,920
Speaker 3: off the land to a point, they probably need to

479
00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:59,840
Speaker 3: have some ability to pay for things. And that may

480
00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:03,199
Speaker 3: be what they're doing is they're killing these men in

481
00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:06,560
Speaker 3: order to you know, have the vengeance. But then they're

482
00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:10,199
Speaker 3: taking advantage of having access to these men's resources to

483
00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:14,760
Speaker 3: continue committing these crimes. Now, is it a spree type killing?

484
00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:19,960
Speaker 3: You know, usually when you see the spree type cases,

485
00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:24,520
Speaker 3: there isn't that cooling off period, you know, the significant

486
00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:27,000
Speaker 3: cooling are They're just boom boom boom boom boom as

487
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:29,520
Speaker 3: they go and commit these crimes back to back to back.

488
00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:36,800
Speaker 3: So I don't study the spree type killers. Maybe there's

489
00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:41,200
Speaker 3: a way that this series would be labeled as a spree.

490
00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:44,480
Speaker 3: For me, it's a series that that's kind of how

491
00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:45,360
Speaker 3: I would label it.

492
00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:49,280
Speaker 2: I wonder why they don't go after specific people who

493
00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:52,960
Speaker 2: have wronged them, like tracking down the US marshall who

494
00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:55,800
Speaker 2: you know, instigated that whole thing, or some of the

495
00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:59,360
Speaker 2: soldiers who were there, or the deputies were there. Surely

496
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:03,400
Speaker 2: somebody in their plaza had land taken away, and now

497
00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:05,960
Speaker 2: the white person, the white settlers living there.

498
00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:08,800
Speaker 1: I mean, why why not? Why not be specific?

499
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:13,480
Speaker 3: Well, I think that there's a very fundamental and practical

500
00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:17,800
Speaker 3: reason why not. Is here, there's these two brothers, and

501
00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:22,240
Speaker 3: you're going to go attack a battalion of soldiers. Yeah right.

502
00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:27,440
Speaker 3: It may just have been that we cannot be successful

503
00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:31,480
Speaker 3: with that group or having even access to that group,

504
00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:36,000
Speaker 3: versus you know, men who have isolated themselves, you know,

505
00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:39,040
Speaker 3: driving the oxen or riding on the stage coach down

506
00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:42,320
Speaker 3: to the sawmill. You know, those are much more vulnerable

507
00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:47,320
Speaker 3: and easier victims that are lower risk to these brothers

508
00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:52,400
Speaker 3: than them charging at armed soldiers at some fort. You know.

509
00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:55,720
Speaker 3: That's that's what I would would say to that. If

510
00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:58,040
Speaker 3: they could ban together, let's say, a group of one

511
00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:01,240
Speaker 3: hundred men that had the same experience as they did

512
00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:03,720
Speaker 3: in the same anger, then you could see where they

513
00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:08,360
Speaker 3: would maybe go after the various entities that directly harm them.

514
00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:11,560
Speaker 3: But they don't have that capability, so now they're using

515
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:14,840
Speaker 3: these other men as proxies in order to be able

516
00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:16,520
Speaker 3: to get the vengeance that they seek.

517
00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:19,400
Speaker 2: Well, it's clear that McKennon knows who to look for.

518
00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:22,600
Speaker 2: Now he's looking for the brothers and they find them.

519
00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:26,320
Speaker 2: I always find this so shocking. Within less than a week.

520
00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:31,160
Speaker 2: It sounds like the militia group spots two horses grazing

521
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:35,520
Speaker 2: in an area called four Mile Creek and they see

522
00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:41,800
Speaker 2: in the distance Vivian Espinoza approaching the horses. And you know,

523
00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:45,200
Speaker 2: I don't know why they thought specifically this was him,

524
00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:46,920
Speaker 2: but they were pretty sure and they turn out to

525
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:50,120
Speaker 2: be right. And I always think, how can they track

526
00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:53,000
Speaker 2: people down that quickly when they could literally be anywhere?

527
00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:54,880
Speaker 2: And part of it, I'm sure is luck, and part

528
00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:57,720
Speaker 2: of it is knowing the places where people are capable

529
00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:01,400
Speaker 2: of staying by water where they can survive. But then,

530
00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:04,200
Speaker 2: you know, I always impress when people track, you know,

531
00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:06,920
Speaker 2: folks down in major cities too, with all of the

532
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:10,080
Speaker 2: people around them, So maybe I shouldn't be so shocked,

533
00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:11,120
Speaker 2: but they find him.

534
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:17,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, well it's impressive. These prospectors, John what's his name,

535
00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:20,680
Speaker 3: John McKinnon you know, they have knowledge of the area,

536
00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:23,920
Speaker 3: and so maybe when you know, this particular area, when

537
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:26,280
Speaker 3: they see the horses and they see, you know, a

538
00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:29,800
Speaker 3: male of Mexican descent from Afar, They're going to go, well,

539
00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:33,800
Speaker 3: that doesn't look right. We need to, you know, investigate further.

540
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:35,959
Speaker 3: And it turns out it's it's one of these brothers.

541
00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:41,280
Speaker 3: I'm envisioning the old wanted posters, you know, wanted dead

542
00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:44,200
Speaker 3: or alive, right, you know, with a reward and the

543
00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:48,000
Speaker 3: photos of you know, the individuals, and you know, I'm

544
00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:50,320
Speaker 3: kind of curious to see if something like that was,

545
00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:53,520
Speaker 3: you know, posted out there at certain places.

546
00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:55,240
Speaker 1: No, I don't think so.

547
00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:57,400
Speaker 2: And I was just thinking, Okay, where would be the

548
00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:02,480
Speaker 2: common places. I guess in californ gulch where the prospectors are,

549
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:04,440
Speaker 2: but I don't know what they would do. I guess

550
00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:07,680
Speaker 2: at waste stations like where John was killed. Sure, you

551
00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:09,200
Speaker 2: know you would put them at places where you know

552
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:10,480
Speaker 2: that they're sort of foot traffic.

553
00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:13,080
Speaker 1: I guess you could nail them to trees. Who knows.

554
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:17,719
Speaker 2: They identify Vivian mcannon's party fires and they hit him,

555
00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:20,840
Speaker 2: but they don't kill him. He starts shooting back and

556
00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:24,720
Speaker 2: then somebody from the militia shoots him between the eyes

557
00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 2: and he dies.

558
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:27,800
Speaker 3: This is FILIPI or Vivian.

559
00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:29,080
Speaker 1: This is Vivian Vivian.

560
00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:33,440
Speaker 2: Okay, they do see Philippe, but there is a member

561
00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:38,080
Speaker 2: of the party who is also of Mexican descent, who

562
00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:41,000
Speaker 2: is in the militia, and so you know, there has

563
00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:43,200
Speaker 2: been chaos with all the shooting and people spread out.

564
00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:47,800
Speaker 2: When they see Felipe, which they correctly see Felipe, they

565
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:49,960
Speaker 2: think it could be a member of their party. So

566
00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:52,280
Speaker 2: Mcan says, don't shoot, and it turns out to be

567
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:55,640
Speaker 2: the bad guy, and Felipe escapes. I mean, that's nice

568
00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:59,200
Speaker 2: that they don't shoot any random man the way he

569
00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:01,800
Speaker 2: might be on our team, but Felipe.

570
00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:04,040
Speaker 3: Escapes the way that you're telling the story. They're very

571
00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:07,440
Speaker 3: certain that the Espinoza brothers are the ones responsible for

572
00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:11,080
Speaker 3: this series. But think about it right now, you know,

573
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:14,080
Speaker 3: at this point where they've they've killed Vivian, what evidence

574
00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:16,760
Speaker 3: do they have? You know, how can they be so

575
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:20,680
Speaker 3: certain that these are the ones that are responsible? You know,

576
00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:23,400
Speaker 3: So I'm looking at it from okay, so how are

577
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:26,080
Speaker 3: you going to build this case, you know, and prove

578
00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:28,720
Speaker 3: that these two brothers are the ones responsible for all

579
00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:31,800
Speaker 3: those these homicides, you know, and this is where now

580
00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:34,680
Speaker 3: it's like, do they have the firearm that was used

581
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:37,640
Speaker 3: in you know, the various cases, do they have the acts?

582
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:40,200
Speaker 3: You know, start building up. Even though you can't do

583
00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:45,040
Speaker 3: modern forensics on potential evidence from these weapons, you know,

584
00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:49,120
Speaker 3: you most certainly could see how these weapons may you know,

585
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:51,560
Speaker 3: if they have access to them, that they that is

586
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:54,520
Speaker 3: a you know, it's it's a form of physical evidence,

587
00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:57,120
Speaker 3: but it's somewhat circumstantial. It's like, Okay, yeah, they had

588
00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:01,000
Speaker 3: they had the weapons available be able to commit these

589
00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:03,160
Speaker 3: crimes over the last three or four weeks or however

590
00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:03,840
Speaker 3: long it was.

591
00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:09,080
Speaker 2: And I'm assuming that any guys like the Espinoza brothers

592
00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:11,920
Speaker 2: who are out camping, if they're innocent and there are

593
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:14,319
Speaker 2: a bunch of white prospectors firing at them, they're going

594
00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:15,520
Speaker 2: to fire back and run.

595
00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:18,280
Speaker 1: So you're right, I mean, there's not that proof.

596
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:21,400
Speaker 2: Except I love stories like this because I find it

597
00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:23,440
Speaker 2: so fascinating why people do things.

598
00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:25,680
Speaker 1: They look at Vivian's.

599
00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:29,880
Speaker 2: Body and the camp site, they find items that were

600
00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:32,880
Speaker 2: stolen from several of the men who had been killed.

601
00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:35,920
Speaker 2: I'm assuming, like the coat and some of the other things.

602
00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:40,560
Speaker 2: There's also something that's described as an article of agreement,

603
00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:44,160
Speaker 2: but it's really kind of a manifesto. Okay, actually we're

604
00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:46,320
Speaker 2: not sure which one of the brothers wrote it, but

605
00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:50,040
Speaker 2: Vivin had it. It says that the brothers plan to

606
00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:55,160
Speaker 2: kill six hundred white men as retribution for their stolen property.

607
00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:57,400
Speaker 1: And you know what happened with the US Marshall.

608
00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:01,360
Speaker 2: There's another document that is also found on Vivian's person

609
00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:04,680
Speaker 2: that says that their father had also been a murderer,

610
00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:09,800
Speaker 2: and that Vivienne is compelled to commit fifty additional murderers

611
00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:14,680
Speaker 2: to atone for his father's sins. Ali, the researcher, says,

612
00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:16,600
Speaker 2: I don't know what that means, but that's what the

613
00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:17,880
Speaker 2: paper apparently said.

614
00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:18,960
Speaker 1: So there are.

615
00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:22,799
Speaker 2: Those two things, and for good measure, mccannon cuts off

616
00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:25,320
Speaker 2: Vivian's head and brings it back to fair play is proof.

617
00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:27,359
Speaker 1: So what do you think about those?

618
00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:30,040
Speaker 2: You know, they find some stolen items which could have

619
00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:31,800
Speaker 2: been discarded by the real killer, and they.

620
00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:33,839
Speaker 1: Picked up and took with who knows, you.

621
00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:37,040
Speaker 3: Know, yeah, you know, but I would say, you know,

622
00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:41,279
Speaker 3: they got the right guys. You know, the manifestos. This

623
00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:44,120
Speaker 3: is where I'd used the term before. You know, this

624
00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:48,680
Speaker 3: missionary type of offender. This is somebody who has a philosophy.

625
00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:52,080
Speaker 3: They're on a mission to you know, uphold this philosophy,

626
00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:56,879
Speaker 3: and this is where you see them writing these manifestos.

627
00:35:56,880 --> 00:36:00,560
Speaker 3: Most famously as the Unobobber. You know, Ted Kaczinski, he

628
00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:04,120
Speaker 3: had a mission. You know, you most certainly had an

629
00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:08,799
Speaker 3: anti social aspect, anti technology aspect. But there's other examples

630
00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:13,200
Speaker 3: of missionary type of offenders. You know. It's interesting. You know,

631
00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:16,040
Speaker 3: there's this phrase that criminality runs in families, and we

632
00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:18,640
Speaker 3: see that in law enforcement that select families through the

633
00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:22,360
Speaker 3: generations just always seem to be on the wrong side.

634
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:26,520
Speaker 3: And you know, with with dad being a you know,

635
00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:28,759
Speaker 3: he's a murderer, you know, and now you got his

636
00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:34,920
Speaker 3: two sons, it's just something that is not surprising at all. So,

637
00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:37,160
Speaker 3: you know, with with what you've told me, you know,

638
00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:41,400
Speaker 3: I'm confident they got the right guys. You know, but

639
00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:45,560
Speaker 3: it's an interesting kind of you know, relating the series

640
00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:48,600
Speaker 3: into the modern times. I mean, it's no different than

641
00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:54,480
Speaker 3: what we've seen the history between the Colorado Territory New Mexico,

642
00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:58,120
Speaker 3: you know, the White settlers move agin you know, the

643
00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:03,200
Speaker 3: gold rush, if you will, in this particular area. You know,

644
00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:07,200
Speaker 3: in essence, you have, you know, a group of individuals

645
00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:11,719
Speaker 3: and particularly Vivian and Felipe, that felt that they were

646
00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:16,200
Speaker 3: harmed and that they were going to seek vengeance. And

647
00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:18,200
Speaker 3: that's what we see all the time.

648
00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:21,080
Speaker 2: Well it keeps going, Paul, I mean, Felipe is not

649
00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:23,200
Speaker 2: going to be discouraged as easily.

650
00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:24,360
Speaker 1: He's on the run.

651
00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:27,160
Speaker 2: They didn't catch him because of that other guy who

652
00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:30,120
Speaker 2: could have been him, and they held fire. He goes

653
00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:34,440
Speaker 2: back to the campsite where his brother's body is mcannon

654
00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:38,120
Speaker 2: and party took the head, and Felipe berries what's left

655
00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:42,440
Speaker 2: Vivianne and then he brings Vivian's foot with him. It

656
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:44,960
Speaker 2: means something to him, you know, just like the killing

657
00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:48,280
Speaker 2: of a fifty additional white guys. He goes back home

658
00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:51,759
Speaker 2: and now the militia people know who is doing this.

659
00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:56,480
Speaker 2: Nobody's there. When he gets there, he recruits his teenage nephew.

660
00:37:56,760 --> 00:37:59,480
Speaker 2: We think his name is Jose It's disputed. Sometimes there's

661
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:02,200
Speaker 2: a lot of sort of interesting legends that happen with

662
00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:04,919
Speaker 2: this story because it is well known. And they go

663
00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:09,799
Speaker 2: to Vivian's place and stay there, which is not far

664
00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:13,160
Speaker 2: it's nearby. I think it's in the same plaza. So

665
00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:17,319
Speaker 2: when they killed Vivian it was the beginning of May.

666
00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:20,920
Speaker 2: He is on the run with his nephew until at

667
00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:23,720
Speaker 2: least the end of June. At the end of June,

668
00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:28,200
Speaker 2: his quest to kill six hundred white men continues. They

669
00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:32,480
Speaker 2: kill a fisherman named William Smith. This is to the south,

670
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:35,080
Speaker 2: which is close to where the Espinosas live. They think

671
00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:37,759
Speaker 2: that there are likely more attacks that happened, you know,

672
00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:41,160
Speaker 2: it's just is something maybe they don't know about, or

673
00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:44,040
Speaker 2: the person went missing and it was never reported. But

674
00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:47,200
Speaker 2: this is the thing that sort of upsets me is

675
00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:50,319
Speaker 2: in October they attack a man and a woman who

676
00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:53,960
Speaker 2: are driving a wagon near Fort Garland. The woman's name

677
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:57,319
Speaker 2: is Dolores Sanchez and the man's last name is Philbrook.

678
00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:01,000
Speaker 2: We can figure out his first name. That two people

679
00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:06,200
Speaker 2: run an opposite directions. Once they rob the wagon, they

680
00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:10,120
Speaker 2: catch Dolores and they raper the man she was with

681
00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:13,440
Speaker 2: and Dolores both survive and they find each other in

682
00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:16,480
Speaker 2: Fort Garland, where they report the attack. I don't know

683
00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:18,560
Speaker 2: why I found that surprising. It was a big switch

684
00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:20,960
Speaker 2: to me sexually assaulting someone.

685
00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:25,239
Speaker 3: Well, you have offenders that commit a wide variety of crimes,

686
00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:29,640
Speaker 3: and you know, I go to my case history where

687
00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:34,280
Speaker 3: I've got guys involved in gangs selling dope. They're killing

688
00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:38,920
Speaker 3: each other over territory. They're also sexually assaulting women. It

689
00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:42,520
Speaker 3: just seems like, you know, once you pass a certain

690
00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:46,719
Speaker 3: threshold of criminality, everything's on the table. This just kind

691
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:49,719
Speaker 3: of underscores to me. You know that there may be

692
00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:54,440
Speaker 3: arguments that there's some justification for Vivian and Philippa being

693
00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:57,319
Speaker 3: so outraged with what happened to them, But at the

694
00:39:57,320 --> 00:39:59,960
Speaker 3: same time, it looks like they have an in name

695
00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:05,920
Speaker 3: criminality trait, and now you're starting to see they're willing

696
00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:08,279
Speaker 3: to do just about anything to anybody.

697
00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:12,480
Speaker 2: Now, let's just to wrap this up. We'll talk about

698
00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:17,279
Speaker 2: how things go with Felipe. So now it feels like

699
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:21,040
Speaker 2: the whole Colorado territory knows about this, and the entire

700
00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:26,239
Speaker 2: southern half has sort of been frozen with transit. There

701
00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:29,279
Speaker 2: is no one doing any big movement of mail or

702
00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:33,320
Speaker 2: freights without a military escort. The commander at Fort Garland

703
00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:36,920
Speaker 2: asks an esteam tracker who is a mountain guide and

704
00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:40,600
Speaker 2: an army scout named Tom Tobin, who I had heard of,

705
00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:43,560
Speaker 2: and he says, you got to find the Espinosas, and

706
00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:47,400
Speaker 2: he's given fifteen soldiers to work with. He ends up

707
00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:50,359
Speaker 2: being like a famous frontiersman in the wild West. He's

708
00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:54,360
Speaker 2: nicknamed Rocky Mountain Tom. It takes Tom one day to

709
00:40:54,560 --> 00:41:00,600
Speaker 2: find the trail. He finds ox and tracks near Lavieta,

710
00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:03,279
Speaker 2: and they find one ox on the trail and they

711
00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:05,600
Speaker 2: can see a lot of crows circling in the sky

712
00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:11,680
Speaker 2: above the woods that line the trail. So Tom thinks

713
00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:14,880
Speaker 2: that the Espinosas had brought the other ox to the

714
00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:17,560
Speaker 2: camp site to kill and eat it, and they start

715
00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:21,920
Speaker 2: kind of moving towards the crows. I was curious about crows.

716
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:25,280
Speaker 2: You know, I've written about vultures, and they can float

717
00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:25,759
Speaker 2: around on it.

718
00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:27,280
Speaker 1: They're not flying. They're on the wind.

719
00:41:27,040 --> 00:41:30,560
Speaker 2: Currents and their circle gets tighter and they get lower

720
00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:32,960
Speaker 2: as they get closer to the prey. But it's pretty

721
00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:37,120
Speaker 2: organized crows. The most common reason that I read that

722
00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:40,759
Speaker 2: they are circling is because they've been disrupted and they're

723
00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:42,640
Speaker 2: sort of on the wind current also and they're kind

724
00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:45,240
Speaker 2: of waiting. But it also could be, you know, something

725
00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:47,160
Speaker 2: else having to do with prey. But I had not

726
00:41:47,239 --> 00:41:51,040
Speaker 2: heard of crows circling over what potentially could be, you know,

727
00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:53,480
Speaker 2: a death site. So they come to the campsite and

728
00:41:53,560 --> 00:41:56,960
Speaker 2: they see Felipe sitting with his back to a rock

729
00:41:57,320 --> 00:41:59,880
Speaker 2: in front of a fire. And then someone steps on

730
00:41:59,920 --> 00:42:04,000
Speaker 2: the damn twig and always a twig, I mean, even

731
00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:08,040
Speaker 2: in horror movies, and Felipe immediately goes for his gun.

732
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:11,720
Speaker 2: Tom is faster and he shoots Felipe in the side.

733
00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:16,480
Speaker 2: Felipe falls into the campfire, yelling for his nephew to run,

734
00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:20,200
Speaker 2: but the party sees him and Tom shoots him and

735
00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:23,280
Speaker 2: kills him. Felipe crawls out of the fire and tries

736
00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:25,759
Speaker 2: to get to his gun. By that point, Tom and

737
00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:28,680
Speaker 2: his men are down at the campsite and there's no

738
00:42:28,719 --> 00:42:31,239
Speaker 2: getting away from it, and he ends up, you know,

739
00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:34,839
Speaker 2: killing him and then beheading Filipe. That is a very

740
00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:39,320
Speaker 2: Hollywood dramatic ending to you know, this sort of story.

741
00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:42,440
Speaker 2: They find a diary Filipe had been keeping. It kind

742
00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:44,759
Speaker 2: of indicates the same thing, why why they're doing this

743
00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:47,279
Speaker 2: to begin with, But he says that he and his

744
00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:49,640
Speaker 2: brother and his nephew had killed a total of thirty

745
00:42:49,719 --> 00:42:54,360
Speaker 2: two people in eight months, and you know, in October

746
00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:57,880
Speaker 2: they bring Felipe's head back to Fort Garland.

747
00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:00,560
Speaker 3: So the head has just proof that I got the

748
00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:04,319
Speaker 3: guy right. Yeah, and probably Tobin is being paid once

749
00:43:04,360 --> 00:43:05,520
Speaker 3: he delivers the head.

750
00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:07,400
Speaker 1: I'm sure a lot of money. Yeah.

751
00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:11,400
Speaker 3: Well, I think it's interesting that Felipe has a diary,

752
00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:13,640
Speaker 3: and again I think that that's what you see with

753
00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:17,560
Speaker 3: these missionary type of offenders. They're they're recording how they

754
00:43:17,640 --> 00:43:21,320
Speaker 3: are satisfying, you know, what their goals are, how they're

755
00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:24,480
Speaker 3: you know, meeting the agenda. Who is he going to

756
00:43:25,239 --> 00:43:28,160
Speaker 3: show that diary too? Is he taking it back to

757
00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:32,360
Speaker 3: certain individuals and saying, hey, look, this is I've atoned for,

758
00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:36,560
Speaker 3: you know, the wrong that everybody around here was subjected

759
00:43:36,600 --> 00:43:39,719
Speaker 3: to by the US soldiers or whatever. But from from

760
00:43:39,719 --> 00:43:44,279
Speaker 3: my perspective, just the series itself is the way that

761
00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:48,719
Speaker 3: it played out is okay. Yeah, It's like if you

762
00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:52,520
Speaker 3: have today, you have somebody that's committing multiple home invasion robberies.

763
00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:55,680
Speaker 3: You know, it's just it's you have that happening, and

764
00:43:56,600 --> 00:44:00,200
Speaker 3: it just turns out that Vivian and Felipe, you know,

765
00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:04,360
Speaker 3: they had a mission on top of you know, whatever

766
00:44:04,360 --> 00:44:05,839
Speaker 3: financial motive may have been.

767
00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:08,640
Speaker 2: Present, And I wonder if they knew six hundred was

768
00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:12,200
Speaker 2: not well, six fifty was not realistic, and they were

769
00:44:12,239 --> 00:44:15,200
Speaker 2: just going to keep going until sure it stopped. And

770
00:44:15,239 --> 00:44:17,600
Speaker 2: this is a way to get their story out. You know,

771
00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:22,400
Speaker 2: whatever we think about them, their complaint of having land

772
00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:26,520
Speaker 2: that was theirs for generations and their people having it

773
00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:30,919
Speaker 2: taken away is you know, totally different than the atrocities

774
00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:34,040
Speaker 2: that they committed. But still that way, you know, he

775
00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:36,440
Speaker 2: has it on record that this is what we were doing.

776
00:44:36,520 --> 00:44:39,160
Speaker 2: We're taking responsibility from it. But I mean, I can't

777
00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:41,160
Speaker 2: even imagine he thought he was going to survive this.

778
00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:44,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, but also it's sort of you take a look

779
00:44:44,680 --> 00:44:48,239
Speaker 3: at the timeframe and they're saying that they killed thirty two.

780
00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:51,000
Speaker 3: I mean, I wouldn't be surprised. This is what did

781
00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:53,680
Speaker 3: people have back in the day to actually link all

782
00:44:53,719 --> 00:44:56,160
Speaker 3: the cases that they committed together. Yeah, you know, so

783
00:44:57,080 --> 00:44:59,040
Speaker 3: you know, maybe they did think, you know, they would

784
00:44:59,080 --> 00:45:02,120
Speaker 3: be able to keep going because there's no way that

785
00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:05,680
Speaker 3: whatever version of law enforcement was available back in the day.

786
00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:09,120
Speaker 3: They're like, nobody's going to be able to figure us out.

787
00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:13,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, Now, do the crosses make sense? To you in

788
00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:16,520
Speaker 2: a different way. The crucifix. This is not for the guys.

789
00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:18,719
Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure this is not for their victims.

790
00:45:19,080 --> 00:45:25,880
Speaker 3: I would probably lean towards the crosses are a way

791
00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:30,480
Speaker 3: that they are atoning for the sin of killing these victims,

792
00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:34,520
Speaker 3: just with that Catholic aspect to their up of bringing,

793
00:45:34,560 --> 00:45:37,840
Speaker 3: which I don't know if that was ever explicitly stated

794
00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:41,080
Speaker 3: in the details, but I'm presuming that that's the case,

795
00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:44,680
Speaker 3: you know. So that's what I'm thinking, you know, is

796
00:45:44,719 --> 00:45:47,479
Speaker 3: that this is this is something they are doing this

797
00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:51,840
Speaker 3: in a way. You know, it's like Vivian writing about

798
00:45:52,520 --> 00:45:57,320
Speaker 3: killing fifty more to atone for his father. Right. Yeah,

799
00:45:57,360 --> 00:46:01,640
Speaker 3: they've permuted some of the traditional Catholic traditions into a

800
00:46:01,719 --> 00:46:06,440
Speaker 3: way to where now they are somehow justifying and or

801
00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:08,760
Speaker 3: atoning for the crimes that they're committing.

802
00:46:09,040 --> 00:46:09,759
Speaker 1: Yeah.

803
00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:13,439
Speaker 2: Well, it made them infamous and in such an awful way.

804
00:46:14,239 --> 00:46:16,960
Speaker 2: But like I said, these kinds of stories, the stories

805
00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:20,279
Speaker 2: about strangers killing random people that is not connected to

806
00:46:20,360 --> 00:46:24,240
Speaker 2: some kind of serial killer or you know, couples killer,

807
00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:27,640
Speaker 2: zodiac type stuff, This to me was pretty different, and

808
00:46:27,719 --> 00:46:31,560
Speaker 2: it did remind me of the DC sniper story that

809
00:46:31,800 --> 00:46:34,080
Speaker 2: was I mean quite a long time ago, but I

810
00:46:34,120 --> 00:46:37,440
Speaker 2: remember it was an older man with a younger teenage boy,

811
00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:40,680
Speaker 2: and you know, it was so complicated. I do remember,

812
00:46:40,719 --> 00:46:42,560
Speaker 2: and I don't know if this is right. I feel

813
00:46:42,560 --> 00:46:45,880
Speaker 2: like I've read before that people who commit mass shootings

814
00:46:45,920 --> 00:46:49,160
Speaker 2: like Vegas almost never intend or like the tower at

815
00:46:49,200 --> 00:46:52,400
Speaker 2: the University of Texas, almost never intend to survive. They

816
00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:55,280
Speaker 2: don't want to survive. Have you felt like that's true

817
00:46:55,360 --> 00:46:55,560
Speaker 2: or no?

818
00:46:56,480 --> 00:47:00,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that that's probably correct. You know, the

819
00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:03,480
Speaker 3: mass shooters, I mean, you think about the school shootings,

820
00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:08,400
Speaker 3: you know these I mean, these shooters know law enforcement's

821
00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:12,640
Speaker 3: going to respond in force, and just based off of history,

822
00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:16,080
Speaker 3: most of those shooters never survive, and many of them

823
00:47:16,239 --> 00:47:19,160
Speaker 3: ultimately take their own lives once they realize that, you know,

824
00:47:19,280 --> 00:47:22,080
Speaker 3: law enforcement is there. So I would say that that's

825
00:47:22,120 --> 00:47:26,040
Speaker 3: probably a correct interpretation of the psychology of the mass shooter.

826
00:47:26,200 --> 00:47:29,880
Speaker 3: They basically want to go out in many ways what

827
00:47:29,960 --> 00:47:32,440
Speaker 3: you'd call a blaze of glory. You know, they're trying

828
00:47:32,440 --> 00:47:34,439
Speaker 3: to make a name for themselves. They want their names

829
00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:38,440
Speaker 3: in the headline. There is a in their minds, a

830
00:47:38,480 --> 00:47:41,320
Speaker 3: certain level of vengeance to the crimes that they're committing.

831
00:47:41,960 --> 00:47:44,160
Speaker 3: But they're doing it all in one foul swoop, which

832
00:47:44,200 --> 00:47:47,400
Speaker 3: is different than Vivian and Felipe. You know, they are

833
00:47:47,520 --> 00:47:51,600
Speaker 3: being strategic. They are trying to be able to continue

834
00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:55,560
Speaker 3: to offend over a period of time, but they stay

835
00:47:55,600 --> 00:47:59,560
Speaker 3: on track. This is where with like the prototypical serial

836
00:47:59,640 --> 00:48:02,400
Speaker 3: killer that we talk about, those types of offenders that

837
00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:05,520
Speaker 3: I've worked on, you know, there's this cooling off period

838
00:48:05,560 --> 00:48:08,680
Speaker 3: in between committing each crime, and so it shows that

839
00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:11,520
Speaker 3: the next time that they commit a crime, they can't

840
00:48:11,560 --> 00:48:16,319
Speaker 3: make an argument that they acted in a fit of

841
00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:19,799
Speaker 3: rage because they had the cooling off period and then

842
00:48:19,840 --> 00:48:23,000
Speaker 3: they reoffend, and then they reoffend, and that's what's happening

843
00:48:23,000 --> 00:48:26,480
Speaker 3: with Vivian and Felipe. It's just not for sexual gratification

844
00:48:26,680 --> 00:48:30,120
Speaker 3: or for fantasy aspects. It is anger retaliatory.

845
00:48:30,760 --> 00:48:31,520
Speaker 1: What a story.

846
00:48:31,760 --> 00:48:34,480
Speaker 2: And I did not intend for this to be a

847
00:48:34,520 --> 00:48:36,839
Speaker 2: two parter, but once we got into it and I

848
00:48:36,840 --> 00:48:38,880
Speaker 2: saw how interested you were in it and it is

849
00:48:38,920 --> 00:48:42,480
Speaker 2: a really interesting story, then I said, okay, well we're

850
00:48:42,480 --> 00:48:44,560
Speaker 2: going to have to expand on this because you know,

851
00:48:44,600 --> 00:48:46,680
Speaker 2: who are these people and why are they doing it?

852
00:48:47,120 --> 00:48:50,640
Speaker 2: This is one of the more complicated motives that I

853
00:48:50,680 --> 00:48:53,920
Speaker 2: feel like we've covered vengeance, I understand, but sort of

854
00:48:53,960 --> 00:48:56,279
Speaker 2: the mindset and the way they're going to go about

855
00:48:56,320 --> 00:49:00,839
Speaker 2: it is really very Hollywood and so sad. And I

856
00:49:00,840 --> 00:49:03,480
Speaker 2: believe them when they say that they've killed thirty two

857
00:49:03,480 --> 00:49:08,120
Speaker 2: people because you know, they had a purpose and they

858
00:49:08,120 --> 00:49:10,680
Speaker 2: could have said six hundred, you know, and we reached

859
00:49:10,680 --> 00:49:13,719
Speaker 2: the goal, but they said thirty two. And it reminds

860
00:49:13,800 --> 00:49:16,560
Speaker 2: me so much of the people who probably have been

861
00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:19,720
Speaker 2: killed by the serial killer in modern days, and there's

862
00:49:19,800 --> 00:49:21,759
Speaker 2: just no way to connect them. And you have these

863
00:49:21,760 --> 00:49:24,160
Speaker 2: families who just spend the rest of their lives wondering

864
00:49:24,200 --> 00:49:24,840
Speaker 2: what happened.

865
00:49:25,320 --> 00:49:27,759
Speaker 3: No, no, for sure, you know it's in you know,

866
00:49:28,320 --> 00:49:32,040
Speaker 3: in some ways you see this, I guess, this battle

867
00:49:32,120 --> 00:49:37,000
Speaker 3: between two groups, you know, in the Colorado territory, and

868
00:49:37,560 --> 00:49:40,719
Speaker 3: you know it's it's sad that humans go after each

869
00:49:40,719 --> 00:49:43,840
Speaker 3: other this way, you know. But then now you see

870
00:49:44,200 --> 00:49:50,160
Speaker 3: how that type of environment created, you know, these two

871
00:49:50,280 --> 00:49:52,880
Speaker 3: brothers to have a mission, and that mission was to

872
00:49:52,880 --> 00:49:53,640
Speaker 3: go out and kill.

873
00:49:54,040 --> 00:49:58,040
Speaker 2: Well, next week you will be in Colorado. Sadly, we

874
00:49:58,120 --> 00:50:01,319
Speaker 2: will not be in Colorado. We will definitely be in

875
00:50:01,400 --> 00:50:05,719
Speaker 2: a different stick well, our territory. Who knows who knows

876
00:50:05,760 --> 00:50:08,799
Speaker 2: this is our first territory too, So get some rest

877
00:50:08,920 --> 00:50:11,280
Speaker 2: because I'm sure I'm going to have another compelling.

878
00:50:10,840 --> 00:50:11,440
Speaker 1: Story for you.

879
00:50:12,160 --> 00:50:14,560
Speaker 3: All right, Well, once again, I'm looking forward to it and.

880
00:50:14,560 --> 00:50:15,040
Speaker 1: See you later.

881
00:50:15,320 --> 00:50:16,560
Speaker 3: All right, sounds good.

882
00:50:20,320 --> 00:50:23,640
Speaker 2: This has been an exactly right production for our sources

883
00:50:23,640 --> 00:50:26,800
Speaker 2: and show notes go to exactly Rightmedia dot com slash

884
00:50:26,840 --> 00:50:30,759
Speaker 2: Buried Bones Sources. Our senior producer is Alexis Emirosi.

885
00:50:31,080 --> 00:50:35,320
Speaker 3: Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin, and Kate Winkler Dawson.

886
00:50:35,600 --> 00:50:37,880
Speaker 2: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

887
00:50:38,160 --> 00:50:40,440
Speaker 3: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

888
00:50:40,680 --> 00:50:42,720
Speaker 2: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

889
00:50:42,960 --> 00:50:47,120
Speaker 3: Executive produced by Karen Kilgaroff, Georgia hard Stark, and Daniel Kramer.

890
00:50:47,400 --> 00:50:50,759
Speaker 2: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

891
00:50:50,880 --> 00:50:52,000
Speaker 2: Baried Bones Pod.

892
00:50:52,480 --> 00:50:55,040
Speaker 3: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

893
00:50:55,040 --> 00:50:57,080
Speaker 3: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

894
00:50:57,080 --> 00:50:58,560
Speaker 3: criminal mind, is available

895
00:50:58,600 --> 00:51:03,440
Speaker 2: Now, and Paul's selling memoir Unmasked, My life Solving America's

896
00:51:03,480 --> 00:51:05,520
Speaker 2: Cold Cases is also available now