Speaker 1: Comeback Stories is a production of Inflection Network and iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2: I'm super excited for today's guests. She's a speaker, addiction
Speaker 2: recovery advocate, a writer, a holistic wellness coach. She is
Speaker 2: dedicated to empowering women and I've been able to witness
Speaker 2: her journey throughout this whole process, and it's been it's
Speaker 2: been an honor to witness it. And I know you've
Speaker 2: recently celebrated or you have sixteen years of continuous sobriety.
Speaker 2: And most importantly, I think is that after sixteen years,
Speaker 2: you broke your silence around your recovery. So I'm excited
Speaker 2: and I'm excited to introduce to our Comeback Stories family.
Speaker 2: Hillary Phelps, Welcome.
Speaker 3: Thank you, thank you so much for having me. And yeah,
Speaker 3: I've been following your journy me as well, and you
Speaker 3: know you've been such a huge support, So I'm excited
Speaker 3: to have this conversation.
Speaker 2: We start probably like you've used to, You've been used
Speaker 2: to starting sharing your story about growing up, Like what
Speaker 2: was growing up for you?
Speaker 3: Like I mean, I say normal, right, like in the
Speaker 3: sense of I had a really happy childhood. My parents
Speaker 3: were married, had a brother and a sister. I was
Speaker 3: a straight A student. I was a swimmer, so I
Speaker 3: started swimming at the age of seven. I swim competitively
Speaker 3: through college, where I had a college scholarship. But it
Speaker 3: was pretty normal, you know, on the outside. I had
Speaker 3: all of the things that looked really good, meaning I
Speaker 3: was a straight A student, you know, at twelve, and
Speaker 3: at eleven and twelve, I was the fastest swimmer in
Speaker 3: the country for my age group, so it's a distant swimmer.
Speaker 3: I was at Nationals. I was the youngest at national
Speaker 3: So I had all of these things on the outside
Speaker 3: that looked really, really good. And I started, you know,
Speaker 3: as I got kind of into my teens, I started
Speaker 3: to feel not good, you know, and I didn't understand it.
Speaker 3: But you know, my parents are super supportive. You know.
Speaker 3: We went to the beach every summer, you know, kind
Speaker 3: of that traditional American family that you would think of,
Speaker 3: and so I didn't have a lot of you know,
Speaker 3: external trauma growing up. It was pretty it was a
Speaker 3: pretty happy childhood, you know. But at the age of fourteen, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen,
Speaker 3: I just started to feel like that, you know, and
Speaker 3: I know, Donnie, we've talked about this, that not good
Speaker 3: enough thing. Like, I just felt not good enough in
Speaker 3: any situation in space I was in. So I was
Speaker 3: never smart enough or pretty enough, or funny enough in
Speaker 3: any room. And that started to become really heavy, and
Speaker 3: that really loud voice in my head that kind of
Speaker 3: overtook everything else, including all the great accomplishments that I've
Speaker 3: had or the external, you know, positive influences. That was
Speaker 3: the one that became the loudest.
Speaker 2: And Coach Donnie coming in here too. Just make sure
Speaker 2: that you're not diminishing just how awesome of a swimmer
Speaker 2: you were. I know that you were, at thirteen years old,
Speaker 2: were the country's fastest swimmer, and you didn't mention that
Speaker 2: in like your little spiel. So I just wanted to
Speaker 2: bring that to the like because that's a big deal. Well,
Speaker 2: it's a big deal. It's a big deal for many reasons. One,
Speaker 2: you were the nation's fastest swimmer, but it still wasn't enough.
Speaker 2: So I know we're going to touch a bunch on that.
Speaker 2: But you know, I think I talk a lot about
Speaker 2: how people with this not enough story achieve a lot.
Speaker 2: It is the not enough story that drives people to
Speaker 2: the top and to the idea or their definition or
Speaker 2: somebody's definition of success. Yeah, Darren's raising his hand for
Speaker 2: those that are listening, Yeah, we got so. Yeah, this
Speaker 2: is I know we're gonna I'm excited for the audience
Speaker 2: to listen to this conversation because I just know it's
Speaker 2: gonna flow and and be natural because your story is
Speaker 2: so much similar to both of ours, and especially Darren's.
Speaker 2: And I'll let Darren chime in a little bit about
Speaker 2: the the commonality between the two of you and the
Speaker 2: not enough story.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I don't even know where to begin.
Speaker 4: I mean, kind of like you said, of having all
Speaker 4: the things on the outside, but just feeling like not good.
Speaker 4: That started happening very early for me, since I was
Speaker 4: a kid. I mean I always knew I was good
Speaker 4: at sports and good in school and stuff like that,
Speaker 4: but it's always something that's just like this is doing nothing,
Speaker 4: and the emptiness and the void kept growing no matter
Speaker 4: how much stuff you fed it, how much stuff you
Speaker 4: tossed into it, even being like in the NFL and
Speaker 4: getting to the NFL and being like, man, this is it,
Speaker 4: like ain't none. There's got to be more to it
Speaker 4: than this, Like this is what I was promised to
Speaker 4: would make me feel happy and successful and you know,
Speaker 4: important and feeling none of those things. And it's just
Speaker 4: a real it's a reality. I fel like it's real
Speaker 4: for people in all walks of life. Not many people
Speaker 4: maybe want to talk about it, but it is a
Speaker 4: it's a real thing. I mean I I still feel
Speaker 4: it sometimes.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's kind of like that Kyle. You know, the
Speaker 3: more that you pour into it, like the more I did,
Speaker 3: you know, the more I tried to fit in or
Speaker 3: the more you know success with someone said, well, if
Speaker 3: you try and if you train harder, and if you
Speaker 3: study more, you'll be faster and you'll get better grades.
Speaker 3: And I remember I still have this a book report
Speaker 3: that's like a plus plus. And you know, I was
Speaker 3: had National Adsprit records, I had all the things, and
Speaker 3: I was like, oh so that's not good enough. Okay,
Speaker 3: Well I'm going to try harder to be better. And
Speaker 3: it's like you just you know, keep pouring in a
Speaker 3: cup that has a hole in the bottom, right, It
Speaker 3: just is it just no matter how fast you do
Speaker 3: it or how many things do you do to try
Speaker 3: to be better, it just steal. It feels so empty.
Speaker 3: I remember Donnie was sharing that story Aaron about you,
Speaker 3: and I was like what And the way that we
Speaker 3: look at people, I'm like, wait, how how he's amazing
Speaker 3: and he's this incredible football player and he's got what
Speaker 3: And it's like we all have that. Yeah, you know, Donnie,
Speaker 3: You're right, like we all have that feeling not enoughness.
Speaker 2: Yeah. As soon as why we're doing the podcast, you know,
Speaker 2: we've sat, we've had We've had your brother Michael, and
Speaker 2: you know he and it's the same thing, you know,
Speaker 2: And I think this is why we've started it, right
Speaker 2: because people might think when Darren's all armored up in
Speaker 2: his football gear and a helmet, that he's immortal and
Speaker 2: doesn't have a heart and emotions and struggles and like
Speaker 2: all of those things. And so when we have guests
Speaker 2: like yourself, like Deren, like Michael, we can't bankrupt that
Speaker 2: story for that one person that might be sitting there
Speaker 2: right now listening and think that their problems are unique
Speaker 2: or that they they're different. It's like no, because I
Speaker 2: was telling myself the same thing at my rock bottom,
Speaker 2: and the truth was there were plenty of people that
Speaker 2: can relate exactly to what I was going through, and
Speaker 2: they found a way out. But I was telling myself,
Speaker 2: doctor screwed me over. Everybody's out to get me, you know.
Speaker 2: And so this is the importance the stories that we
Speaker 2: tell ourselves.
Speaker 3: Stories, right, I shared this recently. It's like feelings exist,
Speaker 3: like those feelings are last in our body for sixty
Speaker 3: to ninety seconds, like the actual feeling, the anger, the saddest,
Speaker 3: will love, the joy, whatever. And it's the story that
Speaker 3: we tell ourselves over and over again in our mind
Speaker 3: about that emotion that keeps us stuck in it. It's
Speaker 3: and it's and that's so true, that's so true.
Speaker 2: We want to I want to talk a ton about
Speaker 2: just where you're at now and the coaching that you're
Speaker 2: doing specifically to women. And the truth is, like you
Speaker 2: can be a coach and you can send a message
Speaker 2: to women, but I believe that same message men can
Speaker 2: hear that same message if we're talking about speaking our
Speaker 2: voice or losing our voice, or having our emotion or
Speaker 2: feeling our emotions, like this is for everybody. But I
Speaker 2: really want to dive into some of the stuff that
Speaker 2: you do that maybe we can give our listeners some
Speaker 2: applicable tools going into the holidays. Because Darren and I
Speaker 2: have committed to kind of just stepping up and you know,
Speaker 2: bringing guests on that can actually give tools and integrate
Speaker 2: some of of these tools into the challenges. We just passed. Thanksgiving.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's it's it's it's portrayed as these holidays
Speaker 2: with like all these amazing things that happened, but it's
Speaker 2: so challenging for so many people, including myself, you know,
Speaker 2: and so we want to arm our guests with tools.
Speaker 3: Okay, So the first, the best, the best advice I've
Speaker 3: ever given or think I love. Have you heard about,
Speaker 3: you know, Bob Procter, Change Your Paradigm, Change Your Life.
Speaker 3: It's one of the best books I've ever read, and
Speaker 3: I've I've listened to it an audible over ten times.
Speaker 3: Every once in a while pop it on kind of
Speaker 3: like a twelve step meeting and kind of because I
Speaker 3: get something different because I'm in a different space, so
Speaker 3: I hear it differently. But something that we've learned, right,
Speaker 3: is that paradigm of like you should be around family.
Speaker 3: You have to do this, like it doesn't matter their blood,
Speaker 3: and it's like if it's detrimental to your mental emotional
Speaker 3: well being, like we don't have to do anything, you know,
Speaker 3: but that's really hard and it's kind of like getting sober.
Speaker 3: It's like doing that first thing for the first time.
Speaker 3: And you know, something that I've been working with a
Speaker 3: lot of people and recently, or those boundaries because for me,
Speaker 3: because for me, it was like it felt like if
Speaker 3: I say, this is what I need and like keeping
Speaker 3: it to me, like not, you need to do this,
Speaker 3: like you know, I need to leave it since really
Speaker 3: eight o'clock, I need to leave it eight o'clock because
Speaker 3: that's my bedtime. And then people saying like, well, just
Speaker 3: stay another light, just do this, just do this. It's like, no,
Speaker 3: this is what I need for me so I feel better,
Speaker 3: so I'm a better human and they start giving pushback,
Speaker 3: and it's really hard the first time, you know, because
Speaker 3: it's like I'm going to do what I need to
Speaker 3: do for me, and then you get to choose how
Speaker 3: you feel about those boundaries that I'm putting up for myself.
Speaker 3: But that's hard because as someone that's a self sacrificer,
Speaker 3: a people please or all of those things that came along,
Speaker 3: that's why I drank, you know, to try to figure
Speaker 3: out how I can get in. But something that you
Speaker 3: know I've talked about a lot recently, is that it
Speaker 3: wasn't I was never wrong, like our voices, like my
Speaker 3: voice is never wrong, like my voice my intuition. But
Speaker 3: for so long I buried it in alcohol, hoolism, a
Speaker 3: toxic marriage. And what I found is I'm just in
Speaker 3: the wrong rooms, right, And so what it took for me,
Speaker 3: and I use this analogy of like walking down a
Speaker 3: hallway and you see all these doors, and you kind
Speaker 3: of walked out of the wrong room and you're on
Speaker 3: this long hallway and they are all these open doors
Speaker 3: and you're like, I don't know which ones for me, right,
Speaker 3: Like I don't know what door do I open? Which
Speaker 3: one is the right room? And the right room for
Speaker 3: me has always been that listening to your inner voice,
Speaker 3: listening to the guidance, And for so long I was
Speaker 3: told that voice was wrong, you know, And which is
Speaker 3: why I didn't share about my addiction and my recovery,
Speaker 3: because I was told it's shameful, it's embarrassing, people aren't
Speaker 3: going to like you, and so I kept it really quiet.
Speaker 3: But I found that once I shut in that space
Speaker 3: of just honoring that and saying like this is who
Speaker 3: I am and this person doesn't like me, then this
Speaker 3: is my person over here. But that's really hard, you know,
Speaker 3: and it takes that practice of like chipping away right,
Speaker 3: like one thing at a time and slowly doing that.
Speaker 3: I think, I don't know, you know, like the tools
Speaker 3: for me when I first got sober was really important
Speaker 3: to like, and people say, like, what do I do
Speaker 3: with the holidays? And it was like, don't do you
Speaker 3: guys do this too? Like I'd always have a drink
Speaker 3: in my hand and it was always sparkling water or
Speaker 3: diet coke or something like that, where people were never
Speaker 3: asking me like can I fill your drink up? Or
Speaker 3: can I get this or you know, things like that.
Speaker 3: And also what I realized is most people are thinking
Speaker 3: about themselves a lot of the time. You know. They're
Speaker 3: not thinking about me, and they're not worried about me
Speaker 3: leaving or they're not worried about what I'm doing, but
Speaker 3: they are worried about how it's going to impact them,
Speaker 3: you know. And so what I had to realize was
Speaker 3: that I'm the only one, you know, I need to
Speaker 3: worry about me and my my emotional well being. And
Speaker 3: so if I'm in the wrong room, I just need
Speaker 3: to step out.
Speaker 2: Those boundaries. I mean, I'm you. When you started talking
Speaker 2: about boundaries, I immediately I just went to Darren because
Speaker 2: I feel like I have so much more, much more
Speaker 2: empathy and compassion towards his price of setting boundaries. It's
Speaker 2: got to be so fucking confusing and like you know,
Speaker 2: where you set the boundary and watch family members. I mean,
Speaker 2: I can't even imagine like how much time, like an
Speaker 2: energy that must consume some people, especially when it is
Speaker 2: family or it's someone that we've known for twenty years
Speaker 2: and we feel obligated to like still give that person
Speaker 2: our time or energy, but we have like nothing in
Speaker 2: common with that person anymore. So Yeah, Darren, I don't know,
Speaker 2: I don't really have a question, but I just like,
Speaker 2: you know, I can't even imagine what that what that
Speaker 2: work looks like for you.
Speaker 4: Yeah, No, it's a lot. And I'm just sitting here
Speaker 4: kind of thinking more towards the route. And it's like,
Speaker 4: you know, I've been somebody that is uh you know,
Speaker 4: kind of like you Hillary. I've people pleaser really could
Speaker 4: struggle with self esteem so much. We had a guest
Speaker 4: on the show, our guy, Neil uh He comedian and
Speaker 4: it won his stand ups. Was talking about how if
Speaker 4: somebody gave him a trophy and like he described his
Speaker 4: body and was like a trophy case or like, and
Speaker 4: he looks inside of himself, and if somebody puts a
Speaker 4: trophy on that case and that shelving like he described
Speaker 4: it as, it would just slide down because he didn't
Speaker 4: even have the framework or the inner world to be
Speaker 4: able to support and hold up a comment. So I
Speaker 4: look at boundaries and I'm like, you have to be
Speaker 4: able to stand up for yourself. But if I don't
Speaker 4: feel that great about myself, how am I gonna stand
Speaker 4: up for myself time in time again and stick to
Speaker 4: those things like I'm going to succumb and be like, oh, well,
Speaker 4: you know, maybe I should do this like kind of
Speaker 4: like you said, like the things that we've been taught
Speaker 4: in condition to do. And it's like that's where it struggles.
Speaker 4: That's where it gets hard for me. And it's still
Speaker 4: a constant practice of trying to figure that out because
Speaker 4: there's more and more intimate relationships being married, you know,
Speaker 4: trying to maintain friendship amidst work in projects and things
Speaker 4: that I have going on, and it's like sometimes you
Speaker 4: just get so overwhelmed.
Speaker 3: I guess yeah, And I think that goes to like,
Speaker 3: you know, figuring out what it is that we like,
Speaker 3: like what do I like? And what have I been told?
Speaker 3: Right in that paradigm, you know, of like I've been
Speaker 3: told that this is what you do, and you know
Speaker 3: you do this, you do that, you do that, and
Speaker 3: so the right waiting the way I'm raising my son.
Speaker 3: I have a six year old and he's like, well,
Speaker 3: when I get older, I'm gonna get married and have
Speaker 3: a baby. And they said, is that what you want
Speaker 3: to do? And he's like, I don't know. And I'm like,
Speaker 3: you're six, you don't have to decide that. And if
Speaker 3: you don't want that, that's okay. And he's like, but no,
Speaker 3: you you have to have grandkids. I'm like, but I don't.
Speaker 3: It's your life, right, you know what I mean? But
Speaker 3: you know, I think like we've been taught a certain way,
Speaker 3: like this is what you do. But if you don't know,
Speaker 3: if I don't know what I like, then how can
Speaker 3: I stand up for myself?
Speaker 4: You know?
Speaker 3: And something I recently heard which I love is in
Speaker 3: the self sacrificing space is we can stop lighting ourselves
Speaker 3: on fire to keep others warm?
Speaker 4: Oh who keeps? Yeah?
Speaker 3: Man, I mean that's like I when I heard that,
Speaker 3: it's like, yes, oh my gosh, yes, Like that's that
Speaker 3: doesn't have to be a thing anymore. I don't have
Speaker 3: to set myself on fire to keep others warm? Right, Yeah,
Speaker 3: what's your lesson?
Speaker 4: Oh? Yes, And I was just gonna build off of
Speaker 4: that because I hear that and I think of, you know,
Speaker 4: my past and dealing with you know, relationships and just life.
Speaker 4: It's like like I'm leaning into codependency or self sabotage
Speaker 4: or like or maybe like a combination of two in
Speaker 4: the middle, and it's like, you know, I need I
Speaker 4: need somebody else to feel good, to feel great in
Speaker 4: order for me to be okay. But if this thing
Speaker 4: gets too good for the standards or what I tell
Speaker 4: myself I deserve, I'm gonna blow this thing up. Like
Speaker 4: I'm gonna take I'm a tear thing to the ground.
Speaker 4: And I'm just like, I don't know, And it's still there.
Speaker 4: It's still there. Still I want to eat at me.
Speaker 4: It still wants to show up in the workplace, It
Speaker 4: wants to show up in marriage, It wants to show
Speaker 4: up in relationships, and it's something I got to keep
Speaker 4: digging on, you know. I tell like the audience that
Speaker 4: that's listening. I'm not hosting the show because I've reached
Speaker 4: this place where everything is figured out and I have
Speaker 4: no more problems. I got plenty issues that I'm still
Speaker 4: trying to work through while also kind of giving myself
Speaker 4: credit for the growth. But yeah, dealing with it that
Speaker 4: just the inner world is can be chaotic, all right.
Speaker 3: I think I go like just giving people like I
Speaker 3: love what you said. You know that you don't have
Speaker 3: it all figured out and you're not perfect, and it
Speaker 3: goes to the grace of being able to give other
Speaker 3: people grace when they're going through something too, and space,
Speaker 3: you know. But to your point, it's like that's where
Speaker 3: I think for me, like the challenge comes in is
Speaker 3: when like I've got my stuff, like I've got you
Speaker 3: know what I mean, But I don't ever want to
Speaker 3: have somebody else carry my shit, Like I want to
Speaker 3: work on it myself before I can, you know. But
Speaker 3: if there's there's that's hard, that inner stuff is hard,
Speaker 3: and I I and it's for competitive athletes too. I
Speaker 3: find that it's really challenging because right you're taught to
Speaker 3: beat people harder, faster, stronger, whatever it takes. But then
Speaker 3: you know, it's kind of like a split. Yeah, it's tough.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I imagine like there's got to be a
Speaker 4: lot of things going on in your world if I
Speaker 4: try to put myself in your shoes back in the
Speaker 4: day when you were this competitive swimmer, swimmer also a woman,
Speaker 4: and I want to know, like when you are a
Speaker 4: woman in that space, just a woman in general who
Speaker 4: wants to achieve and set high goals for herself. Like
Speaker 4: when you were dealing with your issues, do you feel
Speaker 4: like you kind of had to stuff them away to
Speaker 4: like not show a sign of weakness, to show yourself
Speaker 4: as like a strong being in this world? Like, how
Speaker 4: do you go about dealing with that? Because as a man,
Speaker 4: don't I don't know, Like I can listen, but I
Speaker 4: don't really know the struggles of a woman that's trying
Speaker 4: to set the bar high and achieve. Yeah, give the audience,
Speaker 4: I guess a picture to that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So you know I was, I mean I think
Speaker 3: I was joyful and happy and so I loved the
Speaker 3: competition and I love being the best, until you know,
Speaker 3: it came to a place where I wasn't the best,
Speaker 3: meaning I was so good at all these things, a
Speaker 3: great swimmer, a great athlete. I was really happy. And
Speaker 3: then for me, I think it and this goes back
Speaker 3: to like we were talking about, like self confidence, right
Speaker 3: for me, I think it went back to like I
Speaker 3: had a little bit of depression, probably undiagnosed depression, which
Speaker 3: is incredibly common going through puberty, you know, all of
Speaker 3: the things that people do. But I was told like
Speaker 3: just to you know, ignore it and it'll go away.
Speaker 3: You know, it's just a phase. It'll just go And
Speaker 3: I was like, okay, well I'm just gonna push harder
Speaker 3: because that's all I knew how to do was just
Speaker 3: work harder, push harder, you know, and it wasn't working.
Speaker 3: And so for me, my solution was like, okay, figure out,
Speaker 3: like right, like, figure out how to make this work
Speaker 3: with the limited knowledge that I have and the tools
Speaker 3: that I have. How do I be better? How do
Speaker 3: I And so that's kind you know, when I started
Speaker 3: finding drugs and alcohol and it was like that would okay,
Speaker 3: well this makes me feel better. I'm not doing any better,
Speaker 3: Like my swimming is tanking, my grades are starting to slip,
Speaker 3: but at least I'm really good at something now, you know,
Speaker 3: like I'm good at not being bad, but like I'm
Speaker 3: good at the opposite. And so that gave me a
Speaker 3: sense of accomplishment because I think at the end of
Speaker 3: the day, we just want to be loved, appreciated and
Speaker 3: seen like everybody. And so for me, you know, I
Speaker 3: wasn't getting the accolades from swimming, so I surrounded myself
Speaker 3: with people that were looking to numb out and escape
Speaker 3: like I was, you know, and that's when I start
Speaker 3: changing like people, places and things, like everything started shifting
Speaker 3: and changing. And you know, when I got sober, I
Speaker 3: had to do the same thing. I recently got a
Speaker 3: note today from someone and she was like, I struggle
Speaker 3: with relapse, Like what do you do? Like I can't.
Speaker 3: I just keep going back in to treatment, I keep
Speaker 3: trying to get sober, and I keep how do you do?
Speaker 3: I was like, you know what, I had to change
Speaker 3: people's places and things. I did not go to the parties,
Speaker 3: you know, not go to the bar, get a whole
Speaker 3: new set of friends. And I think that's hard. And
Speaker 3: I also think, you know, like you're asking about what
Speaker 3: it's like as a woman in sports or women in
Speaker 3: competitive I think it's also hard for in my opinion.
Speaker 3: You know, there's this just read this. I don't know
Speaker 3: if you guys have women that run with the wolves?
Speaker 3: Have you heard of this book?
Speaker 4: I have not.
Speaker 3: So it talks about the wild woman archetype, right, because
Speaker 3: most women like going to that paradigm. We're told like,
Speaker 3: you shouldn't sweat, keep your feet on the floor, you
Speaker 3: don't curse, right like you have children and that's your job.
Speaker 3: And that's kind of like what we're told to do.
Speaker 3: And it's like, but what about the woman that doesn't
Speaker 3: want to shave her armpits and just be sweaty, so
Speaker 3: there's something wrong with her? And it's like, no, she's
Speaker 3: okay too. And so I love this idea of and
Speaker 3: it goes back to competitive sports like that wild woman archetype,
Speaker 3: like just being being able to be competitive but then
Speaker 3: also being feminine and you know, being able to I
Speaker 3: don't know, spit or but then also being able to
Speaker 3: put makeup on like it's all okay, you know. And
Speaker 3: I think that it's just I think a big story
Speaker 3: was just allowing people not to be who they are,
Speaker 3: you know, and accepting them and that goes back to
Speaker 3: being in the room, Like if I don't like them,
Speaker 3: I don't have to be around them, but I can
Speaker 3: give them the space to just be themselves and that's okay,
Speaker 3: and I can just back out. You know, it's tough.
Speaker 4: That's a lot of wisdom, right, dear Donnie. I know,
Speaker 4: I know he lost you for a second. But I
Speaker 4: asked Hillary, you know what it was like being a
Speaker 4: woman as you know, a competitor, as somebody that was
Speaker 4: trying to set the bar high and set standards for herself,
Speaker 4: And if it was tough for her to navigate that
Speaker 4: space of trying to be successful, but also like you know,
Speaker 4: do I have to stuff my feelings and my emotions
Speaker 4: away in order to keep going and put off this
Speaker 4: strong image? Just trying to gain a little bit of
Speaker 4: a perspective for her and women in their own walks.
Speaker 4: So I thought she, I thought she handled it amazing.
Speaker 2: I got a question for oh, I got a question
Speaker 2: for you. I want to know and maybe people would
Speaker 2: be curious of, like what it what it was like
Speaker 2: and what it is like to be Michael Phelps, the
Speaker 2: greatest Olympian of all time. Sister, Like, tell me the
Speaker 2: good and then maybe the challenges of that as you
Speaker 2: rode that wave as a family.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, you know, it's so funny because and
Speaker 3: I'll say this, and I've said this every time, like
Speaker 3: the medals are great, right, like his accolades, and they
Speaker 3: important to the accomplishments are in like anything we've ever seen,
Speaker 3: and I don't think i'll see in my lifetime like
Speaker 3: it's on it's phenomenal. But I think I'm most proud
Speaker 3: of himp is just stepping out and talking about his
Speaker 3: mental health and being an advocate for mental health, hands down,
Speaker 3: because as we all know on this channel and this conversation,
Speaker 3: it is so hard to be vulnerable and for someone
Speaker 3: and Darren you know too, like to have all of
Speaker 3: those things and say, like, you know what, you all
Speaker 3: think I'm perfect, but this is what's going on in
Speaker 3: the inside, right, Because sometimes one of the reasons I
Speaker 3: got sober was because I literally felt like I was
Speaker 3: burning alive on the inside, right, And so trying to
Speaker 3: keep all that stuff in is just painful and at
Speaker 3: some point you either let it out or you just continue,
Speaker 3: you know, just to suffer. And so hands down, like
Speaker 3: and I think everybody in our family and all of
Speaker 3: his you know, friends would say the same thing. You know,
Speaker 3: the challenge came I think after the Only The only
Speaker 3: challenge was kind of for eight when nobody knew what
Speaker 3: to expect, you know, because it was he'd been this
Speaker 3: great athlete and the swimming world really knew him. But
Speaker 3: in eight, when it was a called Metals, it kind
Speaker 3: of launched him into the international scene. I mean, he'd
Speaker 3: been in the international swimming scene, but kind of pulled
Speaker 3: him into this athletic stratosphere that so you know, few
Speaker 3: people are in. And overnight he became recognizable. And in
Speaker 3: that moment, you know, things just kind of changed and
Speaker 3: the thing, you know, to small things like going out
Speaker 3: to dinner became impossible because Darren, I'm sure you like
Speaker 3: people come up to you and the funny thing like,
Speaker 3: I hate to bother you, but but I'm gonna do
Speaker 3: it anyway.
Speaker 2: Not the awareness down, Your awareness is down. You know
Speaker 2: you're bothering me, but you're doing it anyway.
Speaker 4: So.
Speaker 3: You know, and then you know, and when some of
Speaker 3: the you know, the public challenges were really hard because
Speaker 3: it's hard not to fight for people you love, and
Speaker 3: so when people are saying really negative and hurtful and
Speaker 3: mean things about somebody that you've love so deeply as
Speaker 3: a sibling. It brings out the worst in me and
Speaker 3: my family, you know, because you just want to protect them.
Speaker 3: And so that was really hard because the bats.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I really I want to fight Darren's all the
Speaker 2: time sometimes on Instagram, but like you know, it's like
Speaker 2: it's it's it's that knee jerk, you know. And this
Speaker 2: is why I'm so grateful for the gifts of just
Speaker 2: mindfulness and all this work that we do, that we
Speaker 2: can actually have space to make better decisions and not
Speaker 2: react from a place fear, ego, because someone's talking shit
Speaker 2: about my friend, like somebody behind a keyboard that never
Speaker 2: played football or quit, you know, their senior year, so
Speaker 2: they're now living vicariously through everybody else. But I want
Speaker 2: to go back and talk about what you're so proud,
Speaker 2: what you were most proud of, Michael, because I said
Speaker 2: the exact same thing on our podcast when we interviewed.
Speaker 2: I'm like, the medals are great, Like that's all awesome,
Speaker 2: but what you're doing now and sharing this message and
Speaker 2: you know that moment when we interviewed Michael, that was
Speaker 2: the first in person interview that Darren and I ever did,
Speaker 2: so we just did it virtually. Yeah, we started it
Speaker 2: during COVID and Darren's first game was that season was
Speaker 2: against the Ravens and they were coming in for Monday
Speaker 2: Night and Michael's a Ravens fan, so we were able
Speaker 2: to line it up. And we didn't even have a
Speaker 2: podcast studio, and we use the podcast studio from Bluewire,
Speaker 2: our old producer, and we didn't we had never done
Speaker 2: an in person interview. And here we're in the wind casino,
Speaker 2: people are watching outside and it was such a surreal moment.
Speaker 2: But the best part about it was the rawness, the vulnerability,
Speaker 2: Michael's wife sitting in the studio crying as we're having
Speaker 2: this interview. And most importantly, I think Michael's talking about
Speaker 2: his still current life struggles that he has and just
Speaker 2: how bad it got for him over COVID. So yes,
Speaker 2: I'm the same way, but I'm most proud of and
Speaker 2: the same thing for you, like speaking up after sixteen years.
Speaker 2: Something you said that I've heard in your story, how
Speaker 2: you thought you were going to be no fun when
Speaker 2: you stop drinking. And I used to say the same thing,
Speaker 2: like I thought my life was over when I had
Speaker 2: to stop partying, but the truth was it was really
Speaker 2: getting started.
Speaker 3: But I had no evidence to prove that right, And
Speaker 3: so that's the fear part too. It's like stepping out
Speaker 3: into the space of the unknown and saying, but this
Speaker 3: is fun, and it's like, is it? It's all I
Speaker 3: knew for fun, Like blacking out, it's not fun, not
Speaker 3: knowing what happened the night before, Like, really, it's not fun.
Speaker 3: But I had somebody tell me when I stopped drinking.
Speaker 3: She's like, well, you're no fun anymore. And for someon
Speaker 3: on this two months sober, because that's all I wanted
Speaker 3: to be. I wanted to be anybody other than who
Speaker 3: I was, you know, because I'm I'm not funny. I mean,
Speaker 3: i can kind of be sarcastic, but I'm not exceptionally
Speaker 3: Like my sister and my brother are funny like i'm
Speaker 3: and they're also way cooler, like I think. I look
Speaker 3: at them and I'm like, they're just cool, like I'm
Speaker 3: I'm not. I don't think I am, you know what
Speaker 3: I mean. And so like I wanted to be that,
Speaker 3: or I wanted to be super funny, or I wanted
Speaker 3: to be able to recite everything I read in the book.
Speaker 3: I wanted to be all these things, and it was like,
Speaker 3: I'm not any of those, and that's okay, But being
Speaker 3: fun was the hard one.
Speaker 2: I think that the key to what you said, like
Speaker 2: that's okay at the end of it, right, because some
Speaker 2: of that can show up is not enough, especially if
Speaker 2: our siblings are all of these things that were not,
Speaker 2: you know, and then our level of whatever our standard
Speaker 2: were of success, we're measuring against theirs.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: I have a brother that was extremely successful in sports,
Speaker 2: more successful than ninety eight percent, but maybe not as
Speaker 2: successful as me. So then it was always kind of
Speaker 2: looked at, I think sometimes as well, you know, not
Speaker 2: as successful as you. So once again, there's not enough story.
Speaker 3: Well I joke about my family too, like I was,
Speaker 3: you know, I was full scholarship Division one collegiate swimmer.
Speaker 3: It's pretty good. My sister was third in the world
Speaker 3: at fourteen, really good. My brother's the greatest swimmer of
Speaker 3: all times. So I'm the least successful in my family. Right,
Speaker 3: So to your point, like measuring that by anybody else,
Speaker 3: it would be like that's really you're great, Like have
Speaker 3: you seen them? They're really good? But yeah, it's also
Speaker 3: that measuring our insides to other people's outsides, you know.
Speaker 3: So I look at Darren doing these great things on
Speaker 3: the football field and having all this great success, and Honey,
Speaker 3: you leading these ethic retreats, and I'm like, oh my gosh,
Speaker 3: they're living the life, you know, where meanwhile, you have
Speaker 3: the same feelings on the inside as I do. But
Speaker 3: I'm just looking at the external things and seeing what
Speaker 3: you're presenting is as your internal truth too, And I
Speaker 3: think that's where it's really hard. Yeah, comparison.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I could draw a parallel from you know,
Speaker 4: our inner world to you talking about sobriety is going
Speaker 4: to be no fun, to even to your brother and
Speaker 4: his mental health journey. It's like we have to give
Speaker 4: people permission to like go along their journey and give
Speaker 4: themselves time to believe this new truth like that, you know,
Speaker 4: speaking on mental health can be stronger than any amount
Speaker 4: of championships, one medals, one Like I got to give
Speaker 4: myself time to grow into the truth that my life
Speaker 4: is going to get better from the point that I
Speaker 4: stopped drinking, Like I have to give myself time to
Speaker 4: grow into thinking that what's on the inside matters, and
Speaker 4: I don't have to compare that to anybody else. And
Speaker 4: it's just like, well, let the people know, like your
Speaker 4: journey can take time. It doesn't have to change overnight.
Speaker 4: It doesn't have to be fixed all at once, like
Speaker 4: it's an ongoing process, and just give yourself a little
Speaker 4: bit more time, like just hang on like for today
Speaker 4: even if you even if that's all that it takes.
Speaker 3: So Donnie, you sent me this great podcast and Mark
Speaker 3: Groves Sarah Baldwin podcast, and it talks about healing your
Speaker 3: nervous system. So where I am in ten years, I'm
Speaker 3: not prepared for the successes or the happiness of the
Speaker 3: joys that I'll have in ten years because I haven't
Speaker 3: healed my current nervous system to be able to hold that.
Speaker 3: When I heard that, I was like, oh wait, that
Speaker 3: makes it, Like that makes so much sense of these
Speaker 3: little things, you know, Like so I just have to
Speaker 3: keep doing today the best I can do today, and
Speaker 3: you repeat that tomorrow and in ten years I'll be
Speaker 3: ready for whatever it is the universe has for me
Speaker 3: and then presents itself to me. And it's like that
Speaker 3: makes sense. But it's those little nuggets of things that
Speaker 3: you hear, you know. And when I got sober, someone
Speaker 3: said that it's like your elevator is going down. You
Speaker 3: can get off at any time, Like, oh, I have
Speaker 3: a choice, huh, you know it's yeah. I love those
Speaker 3: little like wisdom soundbites.
Speaker 2: Well, we get them. We get them all the time,
Speaker 2: especially when we're having conversations like this. I don't know
Speaker 2: about YouTube, but I just always believe that God or
Speaker 2: spirit or whatever you choose to call it, speaks through
Speaker 2: the mouths of people. For me, that's where I hear
Speaker 2: it because I can still struggle to decipher if I'm
Speaker 2: sitting quietly, is that my head or is that God
Speaker 2: talking or where? You know, what's the difference, But where
Speaker 2: I do hear it, and especially when I start to
Speaker 2: hear the same shit over and over again, it's like,
Speaker 2: there's a reason why you're why you're why you're seeing that,
Speaker 2: and why you're hearing that, and even like because you know,
Speaker 2: life is a mirror. I would always, you know, have
Speaker 2: this thing with my coaching clients. If there was something
Speaker 2: that was repeatedly happening into them, I would say, well,
Speaker 2: where are you doing that? Because that's usually I mean,
Speaker 2: we're the common denominator. And if you believe in karma,
Speaker 2: what you put out comes back to you. So if
Speaker 2: something keeps happening to you, there's somewhere in your life
Speaker 2: you're doing that same thing, you know. And so it's
Speaker 2: like this is why we especially this time of the year,
Speaker 2: as we get into the new year, it's the time
Speaker 2: to like take a real hard, deep, honest look within
Speaker 2: yourself so that you can see what, like what's stopped you.
Speaker 2: Like that's the big thing I'm talking about, like leading
Speaker 2: up to the new Year's like, Okay, what's one thing
Speaker 2: you need to stop? Just one thing? What is that
Speaker 2: one thing that is in the way that is stopping
Speaker 2: you and getting in the way of you know, and
Speaker 2: just simplify that, and then what do we need to do?
Speaker 2: What would your life look like if you were able
Speaker 2: to let that go?
Speaker 4: You know?
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think to your point about you know,
Speaker 3: like what am I doing? Like why is this pattern continuing?
Speaker 3: Sometimes it's not that we're I found that it's not
Speaker 3: that like we're doing anything, but we're allowing it, you
Speaker 3: know what I mean. Like it's not like I am
Speaker 3: putting out negative or whatever it is, but I'm allowing
Speaker 3: other people to speak to me in a certain way
Speaker 3: or like you know, and I had to have this
Speaker 3: conversation someone with someone that's going to be in my
Speaker 3: life for the next twelve years, and I had to
Speaker 3: have this conversation. And I said, at least and I'm like,
Speaker 3: you can't talk to me like this anymore. If you do,
Speaker 3: I'm going to hang up the phone or I'm going
Speaker 3: to walk away. This is my boundary and if you
Speaker 3: And it took a couple of times for me to
Speaker 3: be like, I'm I'm not doing it. I'm not doing it,
Speaker 3: you know what I mean. So it's it's not maybe
Speaker 3: i'm you know, someone's not doing it, but it's the allowing.
Speaker 3: And it's that continuous pattern of allowing someone else to
Speaker 3: disrespect or angry or whatever it is. And that's hard
Speaker 3: too because if that's what we're used to or a
Speaker 3: patterning or what we've been to it, it's really hard
Speaker 3: to break that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, on that topic of you had talked about You're
Speaker 2: getting your Nervous System Ready, which is a download marcros podcast.
Speaker 2: Listen to all of his episodes. He's been on our
Speaker 2: podcast and he's a friend of ours and just amazing
Speaker 2: but yeah, she was talking about how we need to
Speaker 2: train our parents and our teachers to train them to
Speaker 2: train their nervous systems and get them ready. But there's
Speaker 2: that aspect of it, and then there's this whole idea
Speaker 2: of like the upper limit and training our upper limit. Right,
Speaker 2: So our upper limit is what we think we're worthy
Speaker 2: of receiving. So when all the abundance and all the
Speaker 2: good comes into our lives, we have this up limit.
Speaker 2: And once we surpassed that upper limit, if we don't
Speaker 2: believe we're worthy of it, we will do something or
Speaker 2: do nothing. You talked about actions, but sometimes it's also
Speaker 2: the inaction, the procrastination. I mean, that's the word I
Speaker 2: think about me when I think about procrastination, and so
Speaker 2: this is the word, you know, And this is like
Speaker 2: for anybody listening, if you're just listening and not watching,
Speaker 2: when I said procrastination, they both like, you know, made
Speaker 2: a face like me too, So you know, if you're
Speaker 2: there too, like and you're beating yourself up for doing it,
Speaker 2: like pretty normal these days, especially in a world that
Speaker 2: like we've just been really really distracted, and that's why
Speaker 2: we have to have these practices.
Speaker 3: Well, Darren, that goes back to what you were saying
Speaker 3: about smashing it. You know, we were talking about this,
Speaker 3: Donnie when we lost you for a second. He was
Speaker 3: talking about, like the good starts to happen, then you
Speaker 3: kind of self sabotage. It's like, nope, nope, I'm not ready.
Speaker 3: I'm not from this. Smash this with a hammer, you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, or like yeah, my mom My mom used to
Speaker 2: say that when I would start to get sober and
Speaker 2: do things well and things would start coming into my life,
Speaker 2: She's like, it's almost like you're doing it on purpose.
Speaker 2: And it was because I did not believe in myself
Speaker 2: because of the way I was acting and the way
Speaker 2: I was living, So my self worth was shot so
Speaker 2: that if any good came in, it's like.
Speaker 4: Oh no, no, I'm not worthy of this.
Speaker 2: And you know, I'll never forget. I sat with a
Speaker 2: fellow friend, a medicine leader, one of our friends, Don Bergeron,
Speaker 2: who when I went through a medicine journey, and you know,
Speaker 2: we got to the point where we were just talking
Speaker 2: about the relationship I was in and this attachment that
Speaker 2: I had to it, and I just you know, in
Speaker 2: the journey, there was this energy of attachment and he
Speaker 2: at the end said, do you believe that you are
Speaker 2: worthy of love?
Speaker 4: And I said yes?
Speaker 2: And he said do you believe that you are love?
Speaker 2: And I said yes? And he said, well, okay, then
Speaker 2: if it's not her, it's going to be something better
Speaker 2: because you're worthy of it now if you believe that.
Speaker 2: And Wow, like that moment when he said that, it
Speaker 2: broke an attachment that I had to her, which allowed
Speaker 2: me to actually be more connected to her now and
Speaker 2: trust that like I don't know what the fuck's going
Speaker 2: to happen a year from now, Like we don't know anything,
Speaker 2: and so yeah, I think it just comes back to
Speaker 2: that whole idea of self love. And you know, Hillary,
Speaker 2: I think we need to probably bring you back for
Speaker 2: round two because we've just like scratched the surface, and
Speaker 2: I know both of you are limited on time, but yeah,
Speaker 2: I think we could go in round two and just
Speaker 2: share a little bit more about your journey. And also
Speaker 2: I want to be able to give the audience just
Speaker 2: more tools and practical tools and you know, pull the
Speaker 2: coach out of you to teach us some stuff and
Speaker 2: our listeners.
Speaker 3: Yeah, drop, let's do this.
Speaker 2: Let's give us some nuggets, like just give us something
Speaker 2: to kind of land on, and then we'll just we'll
Speaker 2: try to bring you back like next next week, so
Speaker 2: we can go back to back. But I would say
Speaker 2: some nuggets to give people some positive momentum going into
Speaker 2: the end of the year.
Speaker 3: I think the easiest thing and that I used to
Speaker 3: roll myize out is gratitude list hands down. And it's like,
Speaker 3: but every single night before my son goes to bed,
Speaker 3: will I in bed with him and I say, what
Speaker 3: are the three things you're grateful for? Like just list,
Speaker 3: you know. And sometimes he's like hot wheels, you know, whatever,
Speaker 3: like things right, you know, because he's sick. But for me,
Speaker 3: the days that I'm feeling shitty, like just so our friend,
Speaker 3: don you know, I was talking to him like he's like,
Speaker 3: how are you. I'm like, you know, right now it's gray.
Speaker 3: It's really gray, little dark, like it's just tough right now.
Speaker 3: And he's like, be grateful for the darkness so you
Speaker 3: can really appreciate the joys when they come, not be great,
Speaker 3: you know, And I'm like, oh my gosh, you're right.
Speaker 3: That changed like that. It's like because without the lows,
Speaker 3: you can't appreciate the high. So the gratitude lists for
Speaker 3: me is exceptionally powerful, and not just writing it like what,
Speaker 3: but feeling it, like closing my eyes and saying, Okay,
Speaker 3: what am I grateful for? And some days it's a
Speaker 3: shower or you know, my phone so I can text
Speaker 3: a friend. Sometimes it's really not you know, it's really basic.
Speaker 3: Something else that has been incredibly helpful to me is
Speaker 3: when I'm feeling discontent and agitated, as I just sit
Speaker 3: in a chair with my feet on the floor, and
Speaker 3: sometimes i just hug myself and I close my eyes
Speaker 3: and I'll say, over and over and over and over
Speaker 3: and over, what do you need? What do you need?
Speaker 3: What do you need? Because my head's gonna tell me
Speaker 3: one thing. I need to work out, I need to
Speaker 3: move my body, I need to call, I need to
Speaker 3: do this, but my heart, I just I burst into
Speaker 3: tears before, and that's all I need is that release.
Speaker 3: I just need to cry. Or I need to take
Speaker 3: a bath. And sometimes it's eleven o'clock in the morning,
Speaker 3: and I'm like, who says you can't take a bath
Speaker 3: at eleven o'clock, you know? But we're like, oh, it's
Speaker 3: not nighttime, I can't do it. So I fill it
Speaker 3: up with magnesium, sults and all kinds of and I
Speaker 3: just get in and I get out, and I'm like, Okay,
Speaker 3: I feel better, you know. But it tells me. But
Speaker 3: I find that my intuition and my heart will tell
Speaker 3: me what I need versus my head, like what I
Speaker 3: should do or what I need to do, or what's
Speaker 3: on my list for today, Like when I'm just feeling
Speaker 3: really discontent, and I think one more thing is community.
Speaker 3: And I've talked about this a lot, and I'm sure
Speaker 3: you guys feel the same and said it a million times.
Speaker 3: But surrounding yourself with people who really have your back,
Speaker 3: you know. Like I have a group of five girlfriends
Speaker 3: that I call my board of directors, and they're all different.
Speaker 3: One is like a reverend and she smokes cigarettes. She's sober,
Speaker 3: and she's British and she's hilarious and I will call
Speaker 3: her if I want to just you know, complain event
Speaker 3: and get really funny. My other friend's super spiritual and
Speaker 3: she's you know, if I'm like I just need to.
Speaker 3: So I have this like group of women that I
Speaker 3: can go to at any time, you know. And so
Speaker 3: I think those are my three off the top of
Speaker 3: the head tips that have been really important that I
Speaker 3: could call it midnight if I had to and they'd
Speaker 3: pick up the phone, you know. But I didn't have
Speaker 3: that into Brie, I didn't have that. I mean when
Speaker 3: I was drinking everyone had been passed out right or
Speaker 3: not forig on the phone.
Speaker 4: Yeah. I think it's so important for people just to
Speaker 4: have fundamentals like those things that you just listed, because
Speaker 4: you know, maybe looking for that shift in your life
Speaker 4: or turning it around can seem daunting. It can seem
Speaker 4: like it's like, oh, man, like I really got to
Speaker 4: flip this thing on his head real quick. When it's
Speaker 4: like all you gotta do is start applying these little
Speaker 4: changes and allow those small victories to stack up and
Speaker 4: you look up one day and it's a huge victory.
Speaker 4: Your life changed and great things are happening, things you
Speaker 4: never imagined, and you don't feel like you have to
Speaker 4: blow it up, you.
Speaker 3: Know, like exactly like if I'm in self sabotaze mold,
Speaker 3: I will blow shit up, right. I will be like,
Speaker 3: I'm gonna send this email. I'm not you know, I'm
Speaker 3: gonna do what I'm gonna I'm gonna show them or
Speaker 3: I'm gonna whatever versus like I'm responsible for my actions
Speaker 3: and we as we like in the you know, the program.
Speaker 3: It's like there's sometimes I don't do things because I
Speaker 3: don't want to make an amends. However that sounds which
Speaker 3: is good because I'm not doing something that's harmful. But
Speaker 3: then I you know, I know if I do like,
Speaker 3: I'm gonna have to go back and say I'm sorry.
Speaker 3: There are times when I've said it and I'm like,
Speaker 3: I'm really sorry for the way I I spoke to
Speaker 3: you yesterday. But that's how we live our life because
Speaker 3: that's what we do when we get soberbs. You know
Speaker 3: what I've chosen to do when I got sober exactly.
Speaker 4: But yeah, I mean, we appreciate you joining us today.
Speaker 4: You know, I know you could be a lot of places,
Speaker 4: doing a lot of things, and for you to share
Speaker 4: your time and your energy with us, uh, we're grateful
Speaker 4: for that. It's like everybody else listening can definitely take
Speaker 4: something that's going to make their day better. And yeah,
Speaker 4: I just want thank you for coming on and we
Speaker 4: appreciate you. We hope to see you again soon, Like like.
Speaker 3: Donnie said, thank you for having me.
Speaker 4: This has been great, all right, thank you guys. See
Speaker 4: y'all next week.
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