WEBVTT - What Mind Control Feels Like 0:00:03.080 --> 0:00:05.920 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind from how Stuff 0:00:05.920 --> 0:00:15.600 Works dot Com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. 0:00:15.680 --> 0:00:18.400 My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. And 0:00:18.440 --> 0:00:21.120 today we're going to be following up the episode that 0:00:21.239 --> 0:00:25.160 you just did with Christian most recently about mind flares. 0:00:25.280 --> 0:00:27.600 Today we wanted to take a broader look at the 0:00:27.680 --> 0:00:32.519 idea of mind control in fiction in reality. If it's possible, 0:00:32.880 --> 0:00:36.599 can you really control someone's mind from a distance, And 0:00:36.680 --> 0:00:40.600 if so, what's it like to have your mind controlled? Yes? Now, 0:00:40.640 --> 0:00:43.040 this is not a part two, So if you didn't 0:00:43.080 --> 0:00:45.879 listen to the last episode on mind flares or all 0:00:45.920 --> 0:00:48.600 the Dungeons and dragon stuff turns you off, do not worry. 0:00:48.920 --> 0:00:51.639 You will not need that level of expertise to continue 0:00:51.680 --> 0:00:54.560 on listening to this episode. Robert, I'm sure you can 0:00:54.600 --> 0:00:57.600 give a brief summary course on mind flares for us. 0:00:57.640 --> 0:00:59.840 I will, But before we do that, let's let's just 0:01:00.040 --> 0:01:04.560 us a few other pop culture, cultural literary examples even 0:01:05.120 --> 0:01:08.800 of mind control. Well, one of the classics has got 0:01:08.800 --> 0:01:12.240 to be The Manchurian Candidate, a movie I've never seen, 0:01:12.400 --> 0:01:15.800 but I'm familiar with just through reputation. It's based on 0:01:15.840 --> 0:01:22.480 a novel and it stars uh Frank Sinatra, which I 0:01:22.880 --> 0:01:25.440 have to be sad about because I I can't stand 0:01:25.480 --> 0:01:28.480 that crooner stuff. You you can't I want to use 0:01:28.520 --> 0:01:31.559 another word other than stuff. It's no, I'm not into 0:01:31.600 --> 0:01:34.000 the crooners. Oh I appreciate some creon in every now 0:01:34.040 --> 0:01:36.880 and then. Now that kind of surprises me. Yeah, well, 0:01:37.000 --> 0:01:38.960 you know, it's kind of like I think I'm a 0:01:39.000 --> 0:01:41.639 big fan of Soma FM, which is an internet radio 0:01:42.000 --> 0:01:45.920 station free supported by listeners free plug as well. Uh 0:01:45.920 --> 0:01:48.760 and they have a number of different channels with various 0:01:48.800 --> 0:01:51.360 different types of like electronic and spacey music. But they 0:01:51.360 --> 0:01:54.200 also have one called Secret Agent Radio, and so they 0:01:54.200 --> 0:01:55.960 have a lot of it's like a lot of James 0:01:55.960 --> 0:02:01.080 Bond audio snippets in between, sometimes lounge your tracks, but 0:02:01.120 --> 0:02:04.160 occasionally something a little occasionally, I think they'll drop a 0:02:04.160 --> 0:02:06.400 little Sinatra in. Okay, well, I guess I could get 0:02:06.440 --> 0:02:09.640 into that. But the crooner stuff itself, I'm not a 0:02:09.680 --> 0:02:13.120 fan of. Anyway, back to the Manchurion candidate. So the plot, 0:02:13.560 --> 0:02:16.480 if you're not familiar with it, basically, there are some 0:02:16.520 --> 0:02:20.560 American soldiers who get brainwashed behind enemy lines. I think 0:02:20.560 --> 0:02:25.000 they're taken prisoner by some communists, and these communists hypnotize 0:02:25.080 --> 0:02:27.840 them and turn them into sleeper agents. So you've got 0:02:27.880 --> 0:02:32.400 a character who has been under hypnosis given this post 0:02:32.440 --> 0:02:37.399 hypnotic suggestion that given a certain trigger that activates him, 0:02:37.440 --> 0:02:41.080 he will become an unwitting assassin and will carry out 0:02:41.160 --> 0:02:45.079 his preordained orders from his communist overlords, which are to 0:02:45.240 --> 0:02:49.760 assassinate some American official. Okay, this is very playing in 0:02:50.000 --> 0:02:52.639 a way upon like the the the the very Cold 0:02:52.639 --> 0:02:56.560 War idea, real life idea that contact with the enemy 0:02:56.880 --> 0:03:00.960 even when captured and not you know, brain, that's gonna change, 0:03:01.080 --> 0:03:03.880 it's gonna contaminate you with a with a foreign way 0:03:03.919 --> 0:03:06.080 of thinking. Yeah, and the season on both sides with 0:03:06.200 --> 0:03:09.320 the Soviets, uh and with the and with the US. Yeah. 0:03:09.360 --> 0:03:12.079 And this was also it's very similar to stuff people 0:03:12.120 --> 0:03:15.480 were really saying about things that happened to, for example, 0:03:15.520 --> 0:03:19.080 American prisoners of war during the Korean War, but with 0:03:19.120 --> 0:03:23.119 a critical historical approach, most of those stories about American 0:03:23.160 --> 0:03:25.799 POWs in the Korean War, I think that's all been 0:03:25.840 --> 0:03:29.359 pretty much debunked these days, though of course, there is 0:03:29.400 --> 0:03:32.680 a lot of you know, in any prison or scenario, 0:03:32.720 --> 0:03:36.360 there's gonna be a lot of psychological manipulation. Just bite 0:03:36.360 --> 0:03:39.640 the inherent nature of what's going on and sure, that 0:03:39.800 --> 0:03:41.360 is the thing that we're going to have to explore 0:03:41.400 --> 0:03:44.960 at length in this episode. Is what's the difference between regular, 0:03:45.040 --> 0:03:48.360 run of the mill psychological manipulation, which we all acknowledge, 0:03:48.400 --> 0:03:51.160 we're all familiar with. It's a It's actually a part 0:03:51.160 --> 0:03:53.600 of everyday life. It's not just something that happens under 0:03:53.600 --> 0:03:58.360 extreme duress and wartime scenarios. Psychological manipulation happens in your job. 0:03:58.560 --> 0:04:01.040 It happens in your relations and chips. So this is 0:04:01.120 --> 0:04:04.000 utterly mundane, We're all familiar with it. What's the difference 0:04:04.080 --> 0:04:07.440 between that and the kind of mind control that we 0:04:07.480 --> 0:04:10.880 see in fiction? And wonder if it could be real? Yeah? 0:04:10.920 --> 0:04:12.520 I mean if I read a self help book. Let's 0:04:12.560 --> 0:04:14.320 say I pick up an Eckart tote total a book 0:04:14.320 --> 0:04:17.159 and I started reading it, I'm allowing Eckhart totally to 0:04:17.279 --> 0:04:20.960 write in my brain with his ideas and essentially control 0:04:21.040 --> 0:04:24.080 who I am. Is that a good thing? Uh? Yeah? 0:04:24.279 --> 0:04:27.080 I like, Yeah, I think, yeah, I I do. I like. 0:04:27.160 --> 0:04:29.520 I like a number of Eckart Tootal's ideas. But it's 0:04:29.600 --> 0:04:32.000 that I think we're all okay with that idea. You're allowing, 0:04:32.120 --> 0:04:34.960 You're you're reading a book, You're you're willingly opening the 0:04:34.960 --> 0:04:38.000 doors and letting ideas come in. But where does it 0:04:38.040 --> 0:04:40.159 become a bad thing? Where where do we draw that line? 0:04:40.200 --> 0:04:42.960 Where does it become the Manchurian candidate. Well, we'll get 0:04:43.000 --> 0:04:45.480 into that later. I see, Robert, you have some comic 0:04:45.480 --> 0:04:47.839 book villains here for us, right, Yeah, there are. There 0:04:47.880 --> 0:04:50.680 are a few other I think really noteworthy ideas, some 0:04:50.720 --> 0:04:54.240 of them more recent than others that you see in fiction. 0:04:54.360 --> 0:04:57.920 Different visions of what mind control would be like. Uh, 0:04:57.960 --> 0:05:00.680 there was, of course a really cool one that was 0:05:00.720 --> 0:05:04.440 on the Netflix show Jessica Jones. If you're not familiar 0:05:04.480 --> 0:05:07.080 with this, this is a superhero show. Uh, that's like 0:05:07.080 --> 0:05:10.200 a street level, um Hell's kitchen kind of a thing. 0:05:10.560 --> 0:05:13.240 Jessica Jones is a former superhero with super strength and 0:05:13.240 --> 0:05:16.760 now she's a She's a p I and the enemy 0:05:16.839 --> 0:05:19.599 she goes up against is this guy, Mr Purple, the 0:05:19.640 --> 0:05:25.880 Purple Man, uh Zebadiah Killgrave. And this character's power is 0:05:25.960 --> 0:05:28.400 that he can. He tells you to do something and 0:05:28.440 --> 0:05:30.560 you do it. He tells you to believe something, you 0:05:30.600 --> 0:05:33.840 believe it. That's a very formidable power. Yeah, it's a 0:05:33.839 --> 0:05:36.280 it's a wonder. I'm a big fan of that, at 0:05:36.360 --> 0:05:39.000 least that that first season, the season that's out of 0:05:39.080 --> 0:05:41.479 Jessica Jones, because they do a great job of exploring 0:05:42.680 --> 0:05:48.040 how this this just overpowered character works and it seems 0:05:48.080 --> 0:05:50.839 he can defeat Superman so easily. Right. Yeah, he just 0:05:50.880 --> 0:05:53.320 tells people what to do and they do it. So 0:05:53.360 --> 0:05:55.680 what kind of world has he built for himself? What 0:05:55.839 --> 0:05:58.240 kind of of mind does he have? Like what sort 0:05:58.240 --> 0:06:01.280 of you know, his inner trauma, but also the trauma 0:06:01.320 --> 0:06:03.480 he lives in it he leaves in his wake, because 0:06:03.520 --> 0:06:06.440 eventually people wake up from their mind control and they realized, oh, 0:06:06.480 --> 0:06:09.039 I did all these awful things for this guy who 0:06:09.080 --> 0:06:12.760 just walked into my life and started telling me who 0:06:12.800 --> 0:06:15.960 I was and what I wanted to do for him. 0:06:16.240 --> 0:06:18.800 And then the important thing, too, is that what what 0:06:18.880 --> 0:06:21.719 he tells you to do, you do it willingly. It's 0:06:21.760 --> 0:06:25.000 not a situation of of oh I don't want to 0:06:25.040 --> 0:06:26.919 serve the Purple Man, but I'm doing it. No, you 0:06:27.000 --> 0:06:29.840 just do what the Purple Man tells you to do, 0:06:30.279 --> 0:06:32.080 as if not as if he's the voice of God, 0:06:32.120 --> 0:06:34.960 as if he's your voice. He wears you like a 0:06:34.960 --> 0:06:37.280 glove and makes you do the things you do, and 0:06:37.360 --> 0:06:40.480 you do them of your seemingly of your own volition, 0:06:40.720 --> 0:06:44.680 subject and master, indivisible and will exactly. Okay, so I 0:06:44.760 --> 0:06:47.160 got another one. Okay, I know you love this movie 0:06:47.240 --> 0:06:49.360 video Drone. Oh yes, it's been a while since I've 0:06:49.360 --> 0:06:52.359 actually plugged it into the old VCR or even you know, 0:06:52.480 --> 0:06:56.240 my torso. But yeah, Cronenberg's video Drune is a classic. Yeah, 0:06:56.279 --> 0:06:59.080 and I think there's a lot of metaphorical relationships going 0:06:59.120 --> 0:07:01.680 on now in the lot of videodrome. It's it's a 0:07:01.760 --> 0:07:04.360 it's a nasty body horror movie, but a very smart 0:07:04.440 --> 0:07:08.120 and inventive one about this sleazy TV producer who gets 0:07:08.120 --> 0:07:10.560 caught up in this conspiracy of people who are trying 0:07:10.600 --> 0:07:13.400 to use TV programming to kill people and the control 0:07:13.480 --> 0:07:17.080 minds James woods yes, James Woodson, and he he ends 0:07:17.120 --> 0:07:21.640 up becoming sort of like in the Maturian Candidate, a 0:07:21.640 --> 0:07:25.400 a mindless assassin that is being controlled by these people 0:07:25.440 --> 0:07:29.040 who are who are bombarding his brain with different video signals. 0:07:29.400 --> 0:07:32.840 And there's definitely a lot of commentary in it about 0:07:33.280 --> 0:07:36.440 about how media influences us I think there's some media 0:07:36.520 --> 0:07:41.200 as mind control type suggestions. But he he in the 0:07:41.240 --> 0:07:43.320 plot of the movie, on the face of it, literally 0:07:43.400 --> 0:07:47.360 becomes a mind controlled sleeper assassin running around with his 0:07:47.400 --> 0:07:50.640 flesh gun, lasting people. But they do explain it, not 0:07:50.720 --> 0:07:53.320 just in the mundane sense of media control, as in, 0:07:53.360 --> 0:07:56.080 you know, media is feeding us ideas, and we consume 0:07:56.160 --> 0:07:59.000 those ideas and are sometimes convinced and influenced by them. 0:07:59.000 --> 0:08:01.680 But there is actually like a sci fi explanation. You know, 0:08:01.760 --> 0:08:05.760 he's been given some kind of special brain waves that 0:08:05.800 --> 0:08:08.640 mess him up and cause him to lose his personal 0:08:08.680 --> 0:08:12.480 will and autonomy. Okay, yeah, that's a That's a great example. 0:08:12.520 --> 0:08:15.559 Another example that came to my mind is from another 0:08:15.920 --> 0:08:19.760 actually ties into another James Woods film. So did you 0:08:19.800 --> 0:08:23.120 see John Carpenter's Vampires film. I have tried to watch 0:08:23.200 --> 0:08:26.400 that movie and was unable to finish. It was just 0:08:26.720 --> 0:08:29.880 awful and one of those movies that is so ugly 0:08:30.040 --> 0:08:32.640 to look at that you can't keep your eyes on 0:08:32.679 --> 0:08:36.400 the screen. Yeah I will. I will not defend that 0:08:36.480 --> 0:08:38.520 movie at all. And I'm saying that as a Carpenter fan. 0:08:38.559 --> 0:08:40.679 I think a lot of us have the same uh 0:08:40.840 --> 0:08:44.800 relationship with that film. It's all the more tragic though, 0:08:45.240 --> 0:08:49.679 not only because of Carpenter's filmography and how many you know, 0:08:49.720 --> 0:08:52.200 how many films in that filmography we just love so much, 0:08:52.720 --> 0:08:55.640 but also it's based on the book by John Steakley 0:08:55.800 --> 0:08:59.360 titled Vampires, and the book itself is really empires with 0:08:59.360 --> 0:09:01.439 a doll are signed. I think sometimes it has a 0:09:01.480 --> 0:09:06.120 dollar sign. Yeah. Um. John Steckley now now now the 0:09:06.320 --> 0:09:11.079 departed from this mortal coil. He uh he wrote two books. Basically, 0:09:11.120 --> 0:09:13.360 he wrote Vampires and he wrote a book called Armor 0:09:13.679 --> 0:09:16.760 uh an. Armor is kind of a Starship Troopers uh 0:09:16.960 --> 0:09:20.640 riff involving you know, power armor and inhuman enemies and 0:09:20.679 --> 0:09:23.319 a sci fi future. Both of these books are are 0:09:23.360 --> 0:09:27.199 really good. I recommend them their pactful action. But Vampires 0:09:27.200 --> 0:09:31.280 in particular has these the the vampire characters that are 0:09:31.360 --> 0:09:34.559 encountered by the hunters are just really terrifying because they 0:09:34.559 --> 0:09:37.720 have this at least one of them in particular, has 0:09:37.800 --> 0:09:42.760 this this terrible purple man type mind control power. So 0:09:42.880 --> 0:09:46.800 the covenant vampires will just happen upon some people and 0:09:46.840 --> 0:09:49.280 they'll you know, drain some of them, but then they'll 0:09:49.320 --> 0:09:53.200 also just toy with the others by mind controlling them 0:09:53.240 --> 0:09:57.400 into doing just awful things and then leaving them to 0:09:57.520 --> 0:10:01.559 come to terms with the things that they did seemingly willingly, 0:10:02.240 --> 0:10:04.840 you know that they're just traumatized by the experience, and 0:10:04.880 --> 0:10:08.680 that these awful vampires uh that are parading around like 0:10:08.720 --> 0:10:11.760 little gods, they enjoy it. So that's kind of strange. 0:10:12.000 --> 0:10:16.160 The characters remember doing what they've done under the influence 0:10:16.160 --> 0:10:19.400 of mind control, yet they remember it as something that 0:10:19.440 --> 0:10:22.720 they will personally had the will to do or did 0:10:22.760 --> 0:10:25.880 not personally have the will to do. If I remember correctly, 0:10:25.920 --> 0:10:28.560 it's that they remember loving it. So if they're you know, 0:10:28.600 --> 0:10:30.880 they're told to do this and love it, they'll do 0:10:30.920 --> 0:10:32.680 it and love it. And then even after the power 0:10:32.720 --> 0:10:35.240 of the vampires is left, they're still coming to terms 0:10:35.240 --> 0:10:37.480 of like, what's what's the matter with me? Why did 0:10:37.520 --> 0:10:39.600 I do those things? Why not I enjoy doing those things? 0:10:39.800 --> 0:10:40.960 And I guess a lot of that is kind of 0:10:40.960 --> 0:10:43.720 commentary on, you know, on various things in life. We 0:10:43.720 --> 0:10:46.000 can all look back on memories and we asked, why 0:10:46.000 --> 0:10:49.080 did we do that? And and do so willingly? We 0:10:49.120 --> 0:10:51.520 don't most of us do not have the luxury of 0:10:51.559 --> 0:10:55.360 having the mistakes in our lives dictated to us by 0:10:55.840 --> 0:10:59.640 alien or vampire overlords. It's true. It can often feel 0:10:59.720 --> 0:11:01.840 like when you think back on a memory of something 0:11:01.880 --> 0:11:04.280 you did that you're very not proud of that. You 0:11:04.640 --> 0:11:07.320 think that was a different person, almost as if you 0:11:07.360 --> 0:11:09.920 imagine you were under some form of mind control, but 0:11:10.000 --> 0:11:12.679 the power controlling you at the time was who you 0:11:12.720 --> 0:11:15.680 were at the time, which is no longer who you 0:11:15.720 --> 0:11:20.000 are now. It's true. Okay, but how about those mind flares? Yes, 0:11:20.360 --> 0:11:23.760 the mind flares. So these are monsters, right? Yeah? Yeah, 0:11:23.760 --> 0:11:26.160 these are from the dungeton Dragons World. I won't I 0:11:26.200 --> 0:11:28.839 won't hit you with all the details again, Christian and 0:11:28.880 --> 0:11:32.200 I just recorded an entire episode about them. But yeah, 0:11:32.200 --> 0:11:35.840 their lovecraft Ian octopus headed batties who are always using 0:11:35.880 --> 0:11:41.280 their psionic powers to manipulate and outright mind control their enemies, uh, 0:11:41.360 --> 0:11:44.520 which is often the players of the game. And they're 0:11:44.600 --> 0:11:46.920 using them for thralls, They're using them to like clean 0:11:47.000 --> 0:11:49.040 the elder brain, but also to you go out and 0:11:49.040 --> 0:11:54.199 assassinate people. They just they just totally overuse their overpowered, 0:11:54.559 --> 0:11:58.040 uh psychic abilities. Now, is this like a Manchurian candidate 0:11:58.120 --> 0:11:59.960 kind of thing where they'll, you know, you'll be going 0:12:00.040 --> 0:12:03.400 about your business and suddenly they activate you and you 0:12:03.440 --> 0:12:06.560 are now under their control. Or once you're under their control, 0:12:06.679 --> 0:12:09.599 are you just thereafter under their control? I think you 0:12:09.800 --> 0:12:12.880 can fall out of their control either by I guess 0:12:12.880 --> 0:12:16.680 doing with a skill check okay, a role if you 0:12:16.840 --> 0:12:19.280 roll sufficient to score on a D twenty, you can 0:12:19.280 --> 0:12:22.840 break free, but also without outside of the gaming system itself. 0:12:23.040 --> 0:12:26.640 It's like, for instance, mindful ayres themselves are kind of 0:12:27.000 --> 0:12:30.320 uh tied to this elder brain, and if they happen 0:12:30.400 --> 0:12:33.120 to uh you know, leave the colony and get far 0:12:33.200 --> 0:12:36.160 enough away from it, then they fall out of its influence. Okay, 0:12:36.200 --> 0:12:39.680 but it's often described that, especially when the more powerful 0:12:39.679 --> 0:12:44.200 mind flayers mess with your mind, they are rewriting your identity. 0:12:44.240 --> 0:12:48.160 They're rewriting your personality permanently. Yeah, yeah, they can. They can. 0:12:48.200 --> 0:12:50.400 They can certainly do that to where they change who 0:12:50.480 --> 0:12:54.760 you are by reaching into your brain with their psychic powers. 0:12:54.800 --> 0:12:57.120 And there's no reset button. Yeah, there's no reset button 0:12:57.120 --> 0:13:00.480 on that. Oh man, that's brutal. Yeah, okay, well that 0:13:00.480 --> 0:13:02.439 that does make me think about another interesting thing. We'll 0:13:02.440 --> 0:13:03.840 have to come back to a lot of this later. 0:13:03.880 --> 0:13:06.120 After we looked at some of the research. But yeah, 0:13:06.120 --> 0:13:10.160 there there is often this idea in fiction and media 0:13:10.240 --> 0:13:13.880 where after somebody has been under mind controlled, they revert 0:13:14.080 --> 0:13:17.920 to their previous state once it has concluded. But surely 0:13:17.920 --> 0:13:20.520 the experience would sort of change, you, wouldn't it, even if, 0:13:20.640 --> 0:13:22.960 even if you were doing things against your will. If 0:13:23.000 --> 0:13:26.200 that's possible, I think so. I mean, if you remove 0:13:26.559 --> 0:13:32.200 just pure magical interpretations and you base your vision of 0:13:32.240 --> 0:13:35.760 this ultimately kind of fantastic mind control on what we 0:13:35.800 --> 0:13:38.680 know about psychology and you know science, uh, yeah, it 0:13:38.720 --> 0:13:41.560 would be it would be this weird experience. It would 0:13:41.600 --> 0:13:44.360 be like having been worn by a glove, worn as 0:13:44.360 --> 0:13:47.160 a glove by this other hand, but you were still 0:13:47.800 --> 0:13:49.679 you still did all those things, you still have those 0:13:49.679 --> 0:13:52.520 fingerprints on it. Huh. Okay, So well, let's try to 0:13:52.559 --> 0:13:55.120 define our terms here and talk about what is mind 0:13:55.120 --> 0:13:57.439 control for the purpose of today's episode. What what are 0:13:57.440 --> 0:14:00.000 we talking about and what are we not talking about 0:14:00.000 --> 0:14:02.240 out First of all, I think we should say that 0:14:02.400 --> 0:14:07.280 we already have technologies for controlling people's beliefs, perceptions, desires, 0:14:07.320 --> 0:14:10.240 and behavior, and they're familiar to all of us. We 0:14:10.280 --> 0:14:13.760 mentioned this earlier. They're known as culture and education and 0:14:13.880 --> 0:14:17.960 rhetoric and speech, media, art, entertainment. All these things are 0:14:18.400 --> 0:14:21.160 if you want to really broaden the definition mind control, 0:14:21.200 --> 0:14:24.200 we're all trying to control each other's minds all the time. 0:14:24.520 --> 0:14:26.800 But that's not really what you have in mind when 0:14:26.840 --> 0:14:29.880 you think about mind control, is it. Because there's no 0:14:29.920 --> 0:14:32.800 doubt that these systems do control our minds, but they're 0:14:32.880 --> 0:14:35.040 part of what I would think of as the above 0:14:35.120 --> 0:14:39.000 the table battle for the public will. If you're following 0:14:39.040 --> 0:14:41.000 my metaphor, you know it's some kind of chess game. 0:14:41.280 --> 0:14:43.720 These are all the pieces on the board that you 0:14:43.760 --> 0:14:47.040 can see, and we all acknowledge their making bids for 0:14:47.160 --> 0:14:50.600 influence over our thoughts and our will, and generally, as 0:14:50.600 --> 0:14:52.800 long as we can see all the pieces, we think 0:14:52.840 --> 0:14:55.560 the game is fair. Right, Like, for instance, if I 0:14:55.600 --> 0:14:57.160 were talking to you and I said, hey, Joe, what 0:14:57.200 --> 0:14:59.040 are you doing after lunch? And you say, oh, I 0:14:59.080 --> 0:15:01.520 have to go Christmas shop thing. And I was to say, no, 0:15:01.880 --> 0:15:04.800 you should blow that off and let's go watch Rogue 0:15:04.840 --> 0:15:07.160 One in the theater, and you would say, no, no, no, 0:15:07.200 --> 0:15:09.280 I gotta do my Christmas shopping. And I'm trying to 0:15:09.400 --> 0:15:11.680 I'm trying to convince you to go see rogue one. Instead, 0:15:12.640 --> 0:15:14.920 this is above the table, like, there's no mystery here. 0:15:15.040 --> 0:15:18.280 What's going on? I am trying to convince you to 0:15:18.280 --> 0:15:21.880 to to change your mind about a decision. Sure, and 0:15:21.960 --> 0:15:25.040 it's all like that you see, you know commercial on TV. 0:15:25.200 --> 0:15:27.200 It's trying to change your mind about whether you need 0:15:27.240 --> 0:15:30.520 a product, see by a product, not be a product, 0:15:30.680 --> 0:15:34.240 be a product. Yeah. Well you know, actually though, what 0:15:34.240 --> 0:15:36.600 the commercials do sell you is a vision of yourself, 0:15:36.680 --> 0:15:40.000 isn't it. They're not this person, not who you are 0:15:40.080 --> 0:15:43.720 now exactly, but that they are doing that, at least 0:15:43.760 --> 0:15:45.720 in a certain way above the table, you know what 0:15:45.760 --> 0:15:49.920 they're doing. Anybody who's uh somewhat literate in in rhetoric 0:15:50.000 --> 0:15:52.960 and media culture and stuff like that, you recognize what's 0:15:52.960 --> 0:15:56.280 going on. But well that's not most people. Well I 0:15:56.320 --> 0:15:58.200 don't know. I mean, I think one of the threads 0:15:58.240 --> 0:16:01.600 we're gonna keep coming back to is throughout this episode 0:16:01.720 --> 0:16:04.080 is that all of this is going to depend on 0:16:04.480 --> 0:16:07.080 the speaker and the listener, like the the like who's 0:16:07.240 --> 0:16:09.360 trying to do the mind control? And what is the 0:16:09.400 --> 0:16:12.880 mind that's being control? Yeah, maybe the power of mind 0:16:12.880 --> 0:16:17.560 control lies somewhat in the in the fortifications of the subject. Yeah, 0:16:17.600 --> 0:16:19.600 what are the what are the stats for the mind flayre? 0:16:19.680 --> 0:16:23.760 What are the stats for the player character that's being affected? Right, 0:16:23.800 --> 0:16:26.160 But to come back to my sort of chess metaphor, 0:16:26.200 --> 0:16:28.640 what we're looking for is like the hidden piece that 0:16:28.760 --> 0:16:31.440 the way to cheat is, is there a magnet under 0:16:31.520 --> 0:16:34.760 the table moving the pieces around without our knowledge, a 0:16:34.800 --> 0:16:39.080 way to get around our usual cognitive defenses that we 0:16:39.160 --> 0:16:41.600 do our best to keep well fortified against all these 0:16:41.760 --> 0:16:45.200 forces in the world that are making bids for our 0:16:45.240 --> 0:16:48.760 minds and our attention. So originally the term mind control 0:16:48.960 --> 0:16:51.440 was used in a Cold War context, right. It was 0:16:51.520 --> 0:16:56.720 to refer to the supposed practices of realigning people's beliefs, values, 0:16:56.760 --> 0:17:00.480 and motives against their will, often the con text of 0:17:00.520 --> 0:17:04.679 torture and imprisonment, for example, like we mentioned earlier in 0:17:04.720 --> 0:17:07.160 the Korean War. And I would say this usage has 0:17:07.280 --> 0:17:10.400 somewhat fallen out of fashion, and from what I understand, 0:17:10.400 --> 0:17:13.399 there's very little evidence that this ever really took place 0:17:13.440 --> 0:17:17.440 on a significant scale, especially in the original example of 0:17:17.520 --> 0:17:21.520 like American prisoners being held by opposing forces in the 0:17:21.600 --> 0:17:24.600 Korean War that they were, you know, had their minds 0:17:24.680 --> 0:17:28.760 changed by coercive persuasion. Yeah, Now, of course you can. 0:17:28.800 --> 0:17:31.320 It depends on how you classify these things. Because if 0:17:31.359 --> 0:17:34.800 you if you count just pure political re education programs, 0:17:35.560 --> 0:17:38.080 as of two thousand thirteen, there were still three hundred 0:17:38.119 --> 0:17:42.119 and fifty Liaodong Jile Young facilities in China. These are 0:17:42.359 --> 0:17:46.399 re education through labor camps um that that have like 0:17:46.480 --> 0:17:50.040 a political agenda. Yeah, and I guess the question there 0:17:50.200 --> 0:17:54.239 is um. Now, it's obvious that if you are in 0:17:54.440 --> 0:17:57.119 a culture, that culture is going to have a strong 0:17:57.320 --> 0:18:00.359 influence over your mind. And to what extent can culture 0:18:00.400 --> 0:18:03.879 be defined as, you know, a regime that you exist 0:18:03.920 --> 0:18:06.600 in every day. So if you know, for long periods 0:18:06.640 --> 0:18:09.359 of time you're completely surrounded by people who think a 0:18:09.400 --> 0:18:12.440 certain way, that surely is going to have an influence 0:18:12.480 --> 0:18:14.360 on you. People who think a certain way and tell 0:18:14.400 --> 0:18:17.119 you to think a certain way. I think, Uh, you know, 0:18:17.280 --> 0:18:19.800 we see that in our own lives, right, we we 0:18:19.800 --> 0:18:21.480 we looked at we look back to say like a 0:18:21.560 --> 0:18:24.480 high school scenario and where we all were, and then 0:18:24.520 --> 0:18:27.560 we see where we've all gone, what kind of people 0:18:27.560 --> 0:18:30.199 were surrounded with? And yeah, you can see you can 0:18:30.200 --> 0:18:34.920 see reflections of that in in each person's personal trajectory. 0:18:34.960 --> 0:18:37.399 But can I tie a person into a chair in 0:18:37.440 --> 0:18:40.240 a room for a week and deprive them of sleep 0:18:40.400 --> 0:18:44.479 and and psychologically harass them into believing that, you know, 0:18:45.080 --> 0:18:47.640 their body is made of beetles. I don't know about 0:18:47.840 --> 0:18:51.199 that football is good that kind of thing. Yeah, that 0:18:51.200 --> 0:18:55.119 that the results are not in that that kind of 0:18:55.119 --> 0:18:57.920 thing is so much possible, or at least not widely possible. 0:18:57.920 --> 0:19:01.119 It might be with certain people. Um, but another common 0:19:01.200 --> 0:19:03.280 use of the term mind control is to refer to 0:19:03.320 --> 0:19:07.800 the kind of supposed brainwashing or re education that sometimes 0:19:07.840 --> 0:19:11.000 happens in cults or what's known as new religious movements 0:19:11.760 --> 0:19:15.479 to use a nice euphemism, or even in extremist circles 0:19:15.520 --> 0:19:18.960 within traditional religions. And again, the concept of brainwashing here 0:19:19.040 --> 0:19:22.320 has been a very scientifically controversial one. I'm sure you've 0:19:22.359 --> 0:19:25.760 seen this research before that there's a lot of back 0:19:25.760 --> 0:19:28.439 and forth in the history of psychology, especially in the 0:19:28.480 --> 0:19:31.399 second half of the twentieth century, about to what extent 0:19:31.560 --> 0:19:35.000 brainwashing is a real thing or is this just sort 0:19:35.040 --> 0:19:39.480 of a non rigorous, made up concept based on intuitions 0:19:39.520 --> 0:19:42.920 and not really based on research. Again, there's no doubt 0:19:42.920 --> 0:19:45.840 that one person can influence the thoughts of the other. 0:19:45.920 --> 0:19:47.920 But the idea that you can engage in this full 0:19:48.000 --> 0:19:52.680 coercive persuasion where you revolutionize someone else's mind completely against 0:19:52.680 --> 0:19:56.280 their will, I think that's not widely supported. Yeah, and 0:19:56.320 --> 0:19:58.399 it went away. It's just too simple, right, It's like 0:19:58.440 --> 0:20:02.680 saying the basic idea being, oh, well, this person is 0:20:02.720 --> 0:20:04.560 who they are, and they believe what they believe because 0:20:04.600 --> 0:20:07.760 they they are privy to these influences. If we cut 0:20:07.760 --> 0:20:10.960 off all of those influences and I'm the only influence, 0:20:11.000 --> 0:20:13.280 then surely I can decide who they are for them, 0:20:13.840 --> 0:20:18.480 which sounds simple enough and just doesn't seem to really 0:20:18.520 --> 0:20:21.399 relate to how we to the human condition. Right, And 0:20:21.440 --> 0:20:23.840 you're not the only influence. They're bringing all of their 0:20:23.880 --> 0:20:27.040 past influences with them in memory. Yeah, it's not just 0:20:27.680 --> 0:20:31.360 we're not little water wheels turning in a stream. That's 0:20:31.359 --> 0:20:33.760 a good metaphor. We are not. I always fall back 0:20:33.800 --> 0:20:37.200 on water metaphors. Yeah, and so it will be worth 0:20:37.240 --> 0:20:39.320 taking a bit of a look at that someday, I think, 0:20:39.359 --> 0:20:42.600 But in my estimation to whatever extended actually happens. This 0:20:42.720 --> 0:20:46.679 is also a somewhat different phenomenon from the kind of 0:20:46.760 --> 0:20:50.800 mind flare, like uh, type mind control that we're talking 0:20:50.800 --> 0:20:54.480 about earlier. Right, it's less It's not that it's less serious, 0:20:54.960 --> 0:20:57.439 but there isn't so much a real time loss of 0:20:57.480 --> 0:21:00.959 control over one's thoughts and behavior. It's rather just the 0:21:01.040 --> 0:21:05.640 introduction of a very strongly influential set of beliefs and relationships, 0:21:05.720 --> 0:21:09.720 maybe aided in their inception by stress and social pressure 0:21:09.760 --> 0:21:13.040 and power dynamics between people and stuff like that. Yeah, 0:21:13.119 --> 0:21:15.280 this is very much a topic I'd like to return 0:21:15.320 --> 0:21:19.040 to the future to especially especially as it relates to cults, 0:21:19.640 --> 0:21:22.960 to con artists. Um. Yeah, and and a number of 0:21:23.000 --> 0:21:25.679 other scenarios come to mind. Some of the uh, you know, 0:21:25.720 --> 0:21:29.960 to get into extremist religious models, for instance, the whole 0:21:30.240 --> 0:21:32.919 you know, prey prey away, the gay kind of re 0:21:33.119 --> 0:21:37.600