1 00:00:03,080 --> 00:00:05,920 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind from how Stuff 2 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:15,600 Speaker 1: Works dot Com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. 3 00:00:15,680 --> 00:00:18,400 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. And 4 00:00:18,440 --> 00:00:21,120 Speaker 1: today we're going to be following up the episode that 5 00:00:21,239 --> 00:00:25,160 Speaker 1: you just did with Christian most recently about mind flares. 6 00:00:25,280 --> 00:00:27,600 Speaker 1: Today we wanted to take a broader look at the 7 00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:32,519 Speaker 1: idea of mind control in fiction in reality. If it's possible, 8 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:36,599 Speaker 1: can you really control someone's mind from a distance, And 9 00:00:36,680 --> 00:00:40,600 Speaker 1: if so, what's it like to have your mind controlled? Yes? Now, 10 00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:43,040 Speaker 1: this is not a part two, So if you didn't 11 00:00:43,080 --> 00:00:45,879 Speaker 1: listen to the last episode on mind flares or all 12 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:48,600 Speaker 1: the Dungeons and dragon stuff turns you off, do not worry. 13 00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:51,639 Speaker 1: You will not need that level of expertise to continue 14 00:00:51,680 --> 00:00:54,560 Speaker 1: on listening to this episode. Robert, I'm sure you can 15 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:57,600 Speaker 1: give a brief summary course on mind flares for us. 16 00:00:57,640 --> 00:00:59,840 Speaker 1: I will, But before we do that, let's let's just 17 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:04,560 Speaker 1: us a few other pop culture, cultural literary examples even 18 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:08,800 Speaker 1: of mind control. Well, one of the classics has got 19 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:12,240 Speaker 1: to be The Manchurian Candidate, a movie I've never seen, 20 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:15,800 Speaker 1: but I'm familiar with just through reputation. It's based on 21 00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:22,480 Speaker 1: a novel and it stars uh Frank Sinatra, which I 22 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:25,440 Speaker 1: have to be sad about because I I can't stand 23 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:28,480 Speaker 1: that crooner stuff. You you can't I want to use 24 00:01:28,520 --> 00:01:31,559 Speaker 1: another word other than stuff. It's no, I'm not into 25 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:34,000 Speaker 1: the crooners. Oh I appreciate some creon in every now 26 00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:36,880 Speaker 1: and then. Now that kind of surprises me. Yeah, well, 27 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:38,960 Speaker 1: you know, it's kind of like I think I'm a 28 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:41,639 Speaker 1: big fan of Soma FM, which is an internet radio 29 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:45,920 Speaker 1: station free supported by listeners free plug as well. Uh 30 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:48,760 Speaker 1: and they have a number of different channels with various 31 00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:51,360 Speaker 1: different types of like electronic and spacey music. But they 32 00:01:51,360 --> 00:01:54,200 Speaker 1: also have one called Secret Agent Radio, and so they 33 00:01:54,200 --> 00:01:55,960 Speaker 1: have a lot of it's like a lot of James 34 00:01:55,960 --> 00:02:01,080 Speaker 1: Bond audio snippets in between, sometimes lounge your tracks, but 35 00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:04,160 Speaker 1: occasionally something a little occasionally, I think they'll drop a 36 00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:06,400 Speaker 1: little Sinatra in. Okay, well, I guess I could get 37 00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:09,640 Speaker 1: into that. But the crooner stuff itself, I'm not a 38 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:13,120 Speaker 1: fan of. Anyway, back to the Manchurion candidate. So the plot, 39 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:16,480 Speaker 1: if you're not familiar with it, basically, there are some 40 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:20,560 Speaker 1: American soldiers who get brainwashed behind enemy lines. I think 41 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:25,000 Speaker 1: they're taken prisoner by some communists, and these communists hypnotize 42 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:27,840 Speaker 1: them and turn them into sleeper agents. So you've got 43 00:02:27,880 --> 00:02:32,400 Speaker 1: a character who has been under hypnosis given this post 44 00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:37,399 Speaker 1: hypnotic suggestion that given a certain trigger that activates him, 45 00:02:37,440 --> 00:02:41,080 Speaker 1: he will become an unwitting assassin and will carry out 46 00:02:41,160 --> 00:02:45,079 Speaker 1: his preordained orders from his communist overlords, which are to 47 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:49,760 Speaker 1: assassinate some American official. Okay, this is very playing in 48 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:52,639 Speaker 1: a way upon like the the the the very Cold 49 00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:56,560 Speaker 1: War idea, real life idea that contact with the enemy 50 00:02:56,880 --> 00:03:00,960 Speaker 1: even when captured and not you know, brain, that's gonna change, 51 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:03,880 Speaker 1: it's gonna contaminate you with a with a foreign way 52 00:03:03,919 --> 00:03:06,080 Speaker 1: of thinking. Yeah, and the season on both sides with 53 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:09,320 Speaker 1: the Soviets, uh and with the and with the US. Yeah. 54 00:03:09,360 --> 00:03:12,079 Speaker 1: And this was also it's very similar to stuff people 55 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:15,480 Speaker 1: were really saying about things that happened to, for example, 56 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:19,080 Speaker 1: American prisoners of war during the Korean War, but with 57 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:23,119 Speaker 1: a critical historical approach, most of those stories about American 58 00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:25,799 Speaker 1: POWs in the Korean War, I think that's all been 59 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:29,359 Speaker 1: pretty much debunked these days, though of course, there is 60 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:32,680 Speaker 1: a lot of you know, in any prison or scenario, 61 00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:36,360 Speaker 1: there's gonna be a lot of psychological manipulation. Just bite 62 00:03:36,360 --> 00:03:39,640 Speaker 1: the inherent nature of what's going on and sure, that 63 00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:41,360 Speaker 1: is the thing that we're going to have to explore 64 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:44,960 Speaker 1: at length in this episode. Is what's the difference between regular, 65 00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:48,360 Speaker 1: run of the mill psychological manipulation, which we all acknowledge, 66 00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:51,160 Speaker 1: we're all familiar with. It's a It's actually a part 67 00:03:51,160 --> 00:03:53,600 Speaker 1: of everyday life. It's not just something that happens under 68 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:58,360 Speaker 1: extreme duress and wartime scenarios. Psychological manipulation happens in your job. 69 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:01,040 Speaker 1: It happens in your relations and chips. So this is 70 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:04,000 Speaker 1: utterly mundane, We're all familiar with it. What's the difference 71 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:07,440 Speaker 1: between that and the kind of mind control that we 72 00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:10,880 Speaker 1: see in fiction? And wonder if it could be real? Yeah? 73 00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:12,520 Speaker 1: I mean if I read a self help book. Let's 74 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:14,320 Speaker 1: say I pick up an Eckart tote total a book 75 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:17,159 Speaker 1: and I started reading it, I'm allowing Eckhart totally to 76 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:20,960 Speaker 1: write in my brain with his ideas and essentially control 77 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:24,080 Speaker 1: who I am. Is that a good thing? Uh? Yeah? 78 00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:27,080 Speaker 1: I like, Yeah, I think, yeah, I I do. I like. 79 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:29,520 Speaker 1: I like a number of Eckart Tootal's ideas. But it's 80 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:32,000 Speaker 1: that I think we're all okay with that idea. You're allowing, 81 00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:34,960 Speaker 1: You're you're reading a book, You're you're willingly opening the 82 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:38,000 Speaker 1: doors and letting ideas come in. But where does it 83 00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:40,159 Speaker 1: become a bad thing? Where where do we draw that line? 84 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:42,960 Speaker 1: Where does it become the Manchurian candidate. Well, we'll get 85 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:45,480 Speaker 1: into that later. I see, Robert, you have some comic 86 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:47,839 Speaker 1: book villains here for us, right, Yeah, there are. There 87 00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:50,680 Speaker 1: are a few other I think really noteworthy ideas, some 88 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:54,240 Speaker 1: of them more recent than others that you see in fiction. 89 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:57,920 Speaker 1: Different visions of what mind control would be like. Uh, 90 00:04:57,960 --> 00:05:00,680 Speaker 1: there was, of course a really cool one that was 91 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:04,440 Speaker 1: on the Netflix show Jessica Jones. If you're not familiar 92 00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:07,080 Speaker 1: with this, this is a superhero show. Uh, that's like 93 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:10,200 Speaker 1: a street level, um Hell's kitchen kind of a thing. 94 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:13,240 Speaker 1: Jessica Jones is a former superhero with super strength and 95 00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:16,760 Speaker 1: now she's a She's a p I and the enemy 96 00:05:16,839 --> 00:05:19,599 Speaker 1: she goes up against is this guy, Mr Purple, the 97 00:05:19,640 --> 00:05:25,880 Speaker 1: Purple Man, uh Zebadiah Killgrave. And this character's power is 98 00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:28,400 Speaker 1: that he can. He tells you to do something and 99 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:30,560 Speaker 1: you do it. He tells you to believe something, you 100 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:33,840 Speaker 1: believe it. That's a very formidable power. Yeah, it's a 101 00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:36,280 Speaker 1: it's a wonder. I'm a big fan of that, at 102 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:39,000 Speaker 1: least that that first season, the season that's out of 103 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:41,479 Speaker 1: Jessica Jones, because they do a great job of exploring 104 00:05:42,680 --> 00:05:48,040 Speaker 1: how this this just overpowered character works and it seems 105 00:05:48,080 --> 00:05:50,839 Speaker 1: he can defeat Superman so easily. Right. Yeah, he just 106 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:53,320 Speaker 1: tells people what to do and they do it. So 107 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:55,680 Speaker 1: what kind of world has he built for himself? What 108 00:05:55,839 --> 00:05:58,240 Speaker 1: kind of of mind does he have? Like what sort 109 00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:01,280 Speaker 1: of you know, his inner trauma, but also the trauma 110 00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:03,480 Speaker 1: he lives in it he leaves in his wake, because 111 00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:06,440 Speaker 1: eventually people wake up from their mind control and they realized, oh, 112 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:09,039 Speaker 1: I did all these awful things for this guy who 113 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:12,760 Speaker 1: just walked into my life and started telling me who 114 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:15,960 Speaker 1: I was and what I wanted to do for him. 115 00:06:16,240 --> 00:06:18,800 Speaker 1: And then the important thing, too, is that what what 116 00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:21,719 Speaker 1: he tells you to do, you do it willingly. It's 117 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:25,000 Speaker 1: not a situation of of oh I don't want to 118 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:26,919 Speaker 1: serve the Purple Man, but I'm doing it. No, you 119 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:29,840 Speaker 1: just do what the Purple Man tells you to do, 120 00:06:30,279 --> 00:06:32,080 Speaker 1: as if not as if he's the voice of God, 121 00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:34,960 Speaker 1: as if he's your voice. He wears you like a 122 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:37,280 Speaker 1: glove and makes you do the things you do, and 123 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:40,480 Speaker 1: you do them of your seemingly of your own volition, 124 00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:44,680 Speaker 1: subject and master, indivisible and will exactly. Okay, so I 125 00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:47,160 Speaker 1: got another one. Okay, I know you love this movie 126 00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:49,360 Speaker 1: video Drone. Oh yes, it's been a while since I've 127 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:52,359 Speaker 1: actually plugged it into the old VCR or even you know, 128 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:56,240 Speaker 1: my torso. But yeah, Cronenberg's video Drune is a classic. Yeah, 129 00:06:56,279 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 1: and I think there's a lot of metaphorical relationships going 130 00:06:59,120 --> 00:07:01,680 Speaker 1: on now in the lot of videodrome. It's it's a 131 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:04,360 Speaker 1: it's a nasty body horror movie, but a very smart 132 00:07:04,440 --> 00:07:08,120 Speaker 1: and inventive one about this sleazy TV producer who gets 133 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:10,560 Speaker 1: caught up in this conspiracy of people who are trying 134 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:13,400 Speaker 1: to use TV programming to kill people and the control 135 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:17,080 Speaker 1: minds James woods yes, James Woodson, and he he ends 136 00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:21,640 Speaker 1: up becoming sort of like in the Maturian Candidate, a 137 00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:25,400 Speaker 1: a mindless assassin that is being controlled by these people 138 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:29,040 Speaker 1: who are who are bombarding his brain with different video signals. 139 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:32,840 Speaker 1: And there's definitely a lot of commentary in it about 140 00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:36,440 Speaker 1: about how media influences us I think there's some media 141 00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:41,200 Speaker 1: as mind control type suggestions. But he he in the 142 00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:43,320 Speaker 1: plot of the movie, on the face of it, literally 143 00:07:43,400 --> 00:07:47,360 Speaker 1: becomes a mind controlled sleeper assassin running around with his 144 00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:50,640 Speaker 1: flesh gun, lasting people. But they do explain it, not 145 00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:53,320 Speaker 1: just in the mundane sense of media control, as in, 146 00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:56,080 Speaker 1: you know, media is feeding us ideas, and we consume 147 00:07:56,160 --> 00:07:59,000 Speaker 1: those ideas and are sometimes convinced and influenced by them. 148 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:01,680 Speaker 1: But there is actually like a sci fi explanation. You know, 149 00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:05,760 Speaker 1: he's been given some kind of special brain waves that 150 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:08,640 Speaker 1: mess him up and cause him to lose his personal 151 00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:12,480 Speaker 1: will and autonomy. Okay, yeah, that's a That's a great example. 152 00:08:12,520 --> 00:08:15,559 Speaker 1: Another example that came to my mind is from another 153 00:08:15,920 --> 00:08:19,760 Speaker 1: actually ties into another James Woods film. So did you 154 00:08:19,800 --> 00:08:23,120 Speaker 1: see John Carpenter's Vampires film. I have tried to watch 155 00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:26,400 Speaker 1: that movie and was unable to finish. It was just 156 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:29,880 Speaker 1: awful and one of those movies that is so ugly 157 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:32,640 Speaker 1: to look at that you can't keep your eyes on 158 00:08:32,679 --> 00:08:36,400 Speaker 1: the screen. Yeah I will. I will not defend that 159 00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:38,520 Speaker 1: movie at all. And I'm saying that as a Carpenter fan. 160 00:08:38,559 --> 00:08:40,679 Speaker 1: I think a lot of us have the same uh 161 00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:44,800 Speaker 1: relationship with that film. It's all the more tragic though, 162 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:49,679 Speaker 1: not only because of Carpenter's filmography and how many you know, 163 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:52,200 Speaker 1: how many films in that filmography we just love so much, 164 00:08:52,720 --> 00:08:55,640 Speaker 1: but also it's based on the book by John Steakley 165 00:08:55,800 --> 00:08:59,360 Speaker 1: titled Vampires, and the book itself is really empires with 166 00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:01,439 Speaker 1: a doll are signed. I think sometimes it has a 167 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:06,120 Speaker 1: dollar sign. Yeah. Um. John Steckley now now now the 168 00:09:06,320 --> 00:09:11,079 Speaker 1: departed from this mortal coil. He uh he wrote two books. Basically, 169 00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:13,360 Speaker 1: he wrote Vampires and he wrote a book called Armor 170 00:09:13,679 --> 00:09:16,760 Speaker 1: uh an. Armor is kind of a Starship Troopers uh 171 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:20,640 Speaker 1: riff involving you know, power armor and inhuman enemies and 172 00:09:20,679 --> 00:09:23,319 Speaker 1: a sci fi future. Both of these books are are 173 00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:27,199 Speaker 1: really good. I recommend them their pactful action. But Vampires 174 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:31,280 Speaker 1: in particular has these the the vampire characters that are 175 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:34,559 Speaker 1: encountered by the hunters are just really terrifying because they 176 00:09:34,559 --> 00:09:37,720 Speaker 1: have this at least one of them in particular, has 177 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:42,760 Speaker 1: this this terrible purple man type mind control power. So 178 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:46,800 Speaker 1: the covenant vampires will just happen upon some people and 179 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:49,280 Speaker 1: they'll you know, drain some of them, but then they'll 180 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:53,200 Speaker 1: also just toy with the others by mind controlling them 181 00:09:53,240 --> 00:09:57,400 Speaker 1: into doing just awful things and then leaving them to 182 00:09:57,520 --> 00:10:01,559 Speaker 1: come to terms with the things that they did seemingly willingly, 183 00:10:02,240 --> 00:10:04,840 Speaker 1: you know that they're just traumatized by the experience, and 184 00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:08,680 Speaker 1: that these awful vampires uh that are parading around like 185 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:11,760 Speaker 1: little gods, they enjoy it. So that's kind of strange. 186 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:16,160 Speaker 1: The characters remember doing what they've done under the influence 187 00:10:16,160 --> 00:10:19,400 Speaker 1: of mind control, yet they remember it as something that 188 00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:22,720 Speaker 1: they will personally had the will to do or did 189 00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:25,880 Speaker 1: not personally have the will to do. If I remember correctly, 190 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:28,560 Speaker 1: it's that they remember loving it. So if they're you know, 191 00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:30,880 Speaker 1: they're told to do this and love it, they'll do 192 00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:32,680 Speaker 1: it and love it. And then even after the power 193 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:35,240 Speaker 1: of the vampires is left, they're still coming to terms 194 00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:37,480 Speaker 1: of like, what's what's the matter with me? Why did 195 00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:39,600 Speaker 1: I do those things? Why not I enjoy doing those things? 196 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:40,960 Speaker 1: And I guess a lot of that is kind of 197 00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:43,720 Speaker 1: commentary on, you know, on various things in life. We 198 00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:46,000 Speaker 1: can all look back on memories and we asked, why 199 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:49,080 Speaker 1: did we do that? And and do so willingly? We 200 00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:51,520 Speaker 1: don't most of us do not have the luxury of 201 00:10:51,559 --> 00:10:55,360 Speaker 1: having the mistakes in our lives dictated to us by 202 00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:59,640 Speaker 1: alien or vampire overlords. It's true. It can often feel 203 00:10:59,720 --> 00:11:01,840 Speaker 1: like when you think back on a memory of something 204 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:04,280 Speaker 1: you did that you're very not proud of that. You 205 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:07,320 Speaker 1: think that was a different person, almost as if you 206 00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:09,920 Speaker 1: imagine you were under some form of mind control, but 207 00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:12,679 Speaker 1: the power controlling you at the time was who you 208 00:11:12,720 --> 00:11:15,680 Speaker 1: were at the time, which is no longer who you 209 00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:20,000 Speaker 1: are now. It's true. Okay, but how about those mind flares? Yes, 210 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:23,760 Speaker 1: the mind flares. So these are monsters, right? Yeah? Yeah, 211 00:11:23,760 --> 00:11:26,160 Speaker 1: these are from the dungeton Dragons World. I won't I 212 00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:28,839 Speaker 1: won't hit you with all the details again, Christian and 213 00:11:28,880 --> 00:11:32,200 Speaker 1: I just recorded an entire episode about them. But yeah, 214 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:35,840 Speaker 1: their lovecraft Ian octopus headed batties who are always using 215 00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:41,280 Speaker 1: their psionic powers to manipulate and outright mind control their enemies, uh, 216 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:44,520 Speaker 1: which is often the players of the game. And they're 217 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:46,920 Speaker 1: using them for thralls, They're using them to like clean 218 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:49,040 Speaker 1: the elder brain, but also to you go out and 219 00:11:49,040 --> 00:11:54,199 Speaker 1: assassinate people. They just they just totally overuse their overpowered, 220 00:11:54,559 --> 00:11:58,040 Speaker 1: uh psychic abilities. Now, is this like a Manchurian candidate 221 00:11:58,120 --> 00:11:59,960 Speaker 1: kind of thing where they'll, you know, you'll be going 222 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:03,400 Speaker 1: about your business and suddenly they activate you and you 223 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:06,560 Speaker 1: are now under their control. Or once you're under their control, 224 00:12:06,679 --> 00:12:09,599 Speaker 1: are you just thereafter under their control? I think you 225 00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:12,880 Speaker 1: can fall out of their control either by I guess 226 00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:16,680 Speaker 1: doing with a skill check okay, a role if you 227 00:12:16,840 --> 00:12:19,280 Speaker 1: roll sufficient to score on a D twenty, you can 228 00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:22,840 Speaker 1: break free, but also without outside of the gaming system itself. 229 00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:26,640 Speaker 1: It's like, for instance, mindful ayres themselves are kind of 230 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:30,320 Speaker 1: uh tied to this elder brain, and if they happen 231 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:33,120 Speaker 1: to uh you know, leave the colony and get far 232 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:36,160 Speaker 1: enough away from it, then they fall out of its influence. Okay, 233 00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:39,680 Speaker 1: but it's often described that, especially when the more powerful 234 00:12:39,679 --> 00:12:44,200 Speaker 1: mind flayers mess with your mind, they are rewriting your identity. 235 00:12:44,240 --> 00:12:48,160 Speaker 1: They're rewriting your personality permanently. Yeah, yeah, they can. They can. 236 00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:50,400 Speaker 1: They can certainly do that to where they change who 237 00:12:50,480 --> 00:12:54,760 Speaker 1: you are by reaching into your brain with their psychic powers. 238 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:57,120 Speaker 1: And there's no reset button. Yeah, there's no reset button 239 00:12:57,120 --> 00:13:00,480 Speaker 1: on that. Oh man, that's brutal. Yeah, okay, well that 240 00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:02,439 Speaker 1: that does make me think about another interesting thing. We'll 241 00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:03,840 Speaker 1: have to come back to a lot of this later. 242 00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:06,120 Speaker 1: After we looked at some of the research. But yeah, 243 00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:10,160 Speaker 1: there there is often this idea in fiction and media 244 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:13,880 Speaker 1: where after somebody has been under mind controlled, they revert 245 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:17,920 Speaker 1: to their previous state once it has concluded. But surely 246 00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:20,520 Speaker 1: the experience would sort of change, you, wouldn't it, even if, 247 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:22,960 Speaker 1: even if you were doing things against your will. If 248 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:26,200 Speaker 1: that's possible, I think so. I mean, if you remove 249 00:13:26,559 --> 00:13:32,200 Speaker 1: just pure magical interpretations and you base your vision of 250 00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:35,760 Speaker 1: this ultimately kind of fantastic mind control on what we 251 00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:38,680 Speaker 1: know about psychology and you know science, uh, yeah, it 252 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:41,560 Speaker 1: would be it would be this weird experience. It would 253 00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:44,360 Speaker 1: be like having been worn by a glove, worn as 254 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:47,160 Speaker 1: a glove by this other hand, but you were still 255 00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:49,679 Speaker 1: you still did all those things, you still have those 256 00:13:49,679 --> 00:13:52,520 Speaker 1: fingerprints on it. Huh. Okay, So well, let's try to 257 00:13:52,559 --> 00:13:55,120 Speaker 1: define our terms here and talk about what is mind 258 00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:57,439 Speaker 1: control for the purpose of today's episode. What what are 259 00:13:57,440 --> 00:14:00,000 Speaker 1: we talking about and what are we not talking about 260 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:02,240 Speaker 1: out First of all, I think we should say that 261 00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:07,280 Speaker 1: we already have technologies for controlling people's beliefs, perceptions, desires, 262 00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:10,240 Speaker 1: and behavior, and they're familiar to all of us. We 263 00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:13,760 Speaker 1: mentioned this earlier. They're known as culture and education and 264 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:17,960 Speaker 1: rhetoric and speech, media, art, entertainment. All these things are 265 00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:21,160 Speaker 1: if you want to really broaden the definition mind control, 266 00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:24,200 Speaker 1: we're all trying to control each other's minds all the time. 267 00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:26,800 Speaker 1: But that's not really what you have in mind when 268 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:29,880 Speaker 1: you think about mind control, is it. Because there's no 269 00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:32,800 Speaker 1: doubt that these systems do control our minds, but they're 270 00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:35,040 Speaker 1: part of what I would think of as the above 271 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:39,000 Speaker 1: the table battle for the public will. If you're following 272 00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:41,000 Speaker 1: my metaphor, you know it's some kind of chess game. 273 00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:43,720 Speaker 1: These are all the pieces on the board that you 274 00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:47,040 Speaker 1: can see, and we all acknowledge their making bids for 275 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:50,600 Speaker 1: influence over our thoughts and our will, and generally, as 276 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:52,800 Speaker 1: long as we can see all the pieces, we think 277 00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:55,560 Speaker 1: the game is fair. Right, Like, for instance, if I 278 00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:57,160 Speaker 1: were talking to you and I said, hey, Joe, what 279 00:14:57,200 --> 00:14:59,040 Speaker 1: are you doing after lunch? And you say, oh, I 280 00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:01,520 Speaker 1: have to go Christmas shop thing. And I was to say, no, 281 00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:04,800 Speaker 1: you should blow that off and let's go watch Rogue 282 00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:07,160 Speaker 1: One in the theater, and you would say, no, no, no, 283 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:09,280 Speaker 1: I gotta do my Christmas shopping. And I'm trying to 284 00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:11,680 Speaker 1: I'm trying to convince you to go see rogue one. Instead, 285 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:14,920 Speaker 1: this is above the table, like, there's no mystery here. 286 00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:18,280 Speaker 1: What's going on? I am trying to convince you to 287 00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:21,880 Speaker 1: to to change your mind about a decision. Sure, and 288 00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:25,040 Speaker 1: it's all like that you see, you know commercial on TV. 289 00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:27,200 Speaker 1: It's trying to change your mind about whether you need 290 00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:30,520 Speaker 1: a product, see by a product, not be a product, 291 00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:34,240 Speaker 1: be a product. Yeah. Well you know, actually though, what 292 00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:36,600 Speaker 1: the commercials do sell you is a vision of yourself, 293 00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:40,000 Speaker 1: isn't it. They're not this person, not who you are 294 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:43,720 Speaker 1: now exactly, but that they are doing that, at least 295 00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:45,720 Speaker 1: in a certain way above the table, you know what 296 00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:49,920 Speaker 1: they're doing. Anybody who's uh somewhat literate in in rhetoric 297 00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:52,960 Speaker 1: and media culture and stuff like that, you recognize what's 298 00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:56,280 Speaker 1: going on. But well that's not most people. Well I 299 00:15:56,320 --> 00:15:58,200 Speaker 1: don't know. I mean, I think one of the threads 300 00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:01,600 Speaker 1: we're gonna keep coming back to is throughout this episode 301 00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:04,080 Speaker 1: is that all of this is going to depend on 302 00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:07,080 Speaker 1: the speaker and the listener, like the the like who's 303 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:09,360 Speaker 1: trying to do the mind control? And what is the 304 00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:12,880 Speaker 1: mind that's being control? Yeah, maybe the power of mind 305 00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:17,560 Speaker 1: control lies somewhat in the in the fortifications of the subject. Yeah, 306 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:19,600 Speaker 1: what are the what are the stats for the mind flayre? 307 00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:23,760 Speaker 1: What are the stats for the player character that's being affected? Right, 308 00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:26,160 Speaker 1: But to come back to my sort of chess metaphor, 309 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:28,640 Speaker 1: what we're looking for is like the hidden piece that 310 00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:31,440 Speaker 1: the way to cheat is, is there a magnet under 311 00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:34,760 Speaker 1: the table moving the pieces around without our knowledge, a 312 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:39,080 Speaker 1: way to get around our usual cognitive defenses that we 313 00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:41,600 Speaker 1: do our best to keep well fortified against all these 314 00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:45,200 Speaker 1: forces in the world that are making bids for our 315 00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:48,760 Speaker 1: minds and our attention. So originally the term mind control 316 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:51,440 Speaker 1: was used in a Cold War context, right. It was 317 00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:56,720 Speaker 1: to refer to the supposed practices of realigning people's beliefs, values, 318 00:16:56,760 --> 00:17:00,480 Speaker 1: and motives against their will, often the con text of 319 00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:04,679 Speaker 1: torture and imprisonment, for example, like we mentioned earlier in 320 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:07,160 Speaker 1: the Korean War. And I would say this usage has 321 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:10,400 Speaker 1: somewhat fallen out of fashion, and from what I understand, 322 00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:13,399 Speaker 1: there's very little evidence that this ever really took place 323 00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:17,440 Speaker 1: on a significant scale, especially in the original example of 324 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:21,520 Speaker 1: like American prisoners being held by opposing forces in the 325 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:24,600 Speaker 1: Korean War that they were, you know, had their minds 326 00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:28,760 Speaker 1: changed by coercive persuasion. Yeah, Now, of course you can. 327 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:31,320 Speaker 1: It depends on how you classify these things. Because if 328 00:17:31,359 --> 00:17:34,800 Speaker 1: you if you count just pure political re education programs, 329 00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:38,080 Speaker 1: as of two thousand thirteen, there were still three hundred 330 00:17:38,119 --> 00:17:42,119 Speaker 1: and fifty Liaodong Jile Young facilities in China. These are 331 00:17:42,359 --> 00:17:46,399 Speaker 1: re education through labor camps um that that have like 332 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:50,040 Speaker 1: a political agenda. Yeah, and I guess the question there 333 00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:54,239 Speaker 1: is um. Now, it's obvious that if you are in 334 00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:57,119 Speaker 1: a culture, that culture is going to have a strong 335 00:17:57,320 --> 00:18:00,359 Speaker 1: influence over your mind. And to what extent can culture 336 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:03,879 Speaker 1: be defined as, you know, a regime that you exist 337 00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:06,600 Speaker 1: in every day. So if you know, for long periods 338 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:09,359 Speaker 1: of time you're completely surrounded by people who think a 339 00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:12,440 Speaker 1: certain way, that surely is going to have an influence 340 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:14,360 Speaker 1: on you. People who think a certain way and tell 341 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:17,119 Speaker 1: you to think a certain way. I think, Uh, you know, 342 00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:19,800 Speaker 1: we see that in our own lives, right, we we 343 00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:21,480 Speaker 1: we looked at we look back to say like a 344 00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:24,480 Speaker 1: high school scenario and where we all were, and then 345 00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:27,560 Speaker 1: we see where we've all gone, what kind of people 346 00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:30,199 Speaker 1: were surrounded with? And yeah, you can see you can 347 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:34,920 Speaker 1: see reflections of that in in each person's personal trajectory. 348 00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:37,399 Speaker 1: But can I tie a person into a chair in 349 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:40,240 Speaker 1: a room for a week and deprive them of sleep 350 00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:44,479 Speaker 1: and and psychologically harass them into believing that, you know, 351 00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:47,640 Speaker 1: their body is made of beetles. I don't know about 352 00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:51,199 Speaker 1: that football is good that kind of thing. Yeah, that 353 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:55,119 Speaker 1: that the results are not in that that kind of 354 00:18:55,119 --> 00:18:57,920 Speaker 1: thing is so much possible, or at least not widely possible. 355 00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:01,119 Speaker 1: It might be with certain people. Um, but another common 356 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:03,280 Speaker 1: use of the term mind control is to refer to 357 00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:07,800 Speaker 1: the kind of supposed brainwashing or re education that sometimes 358 00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:11,000 Speaker 1: happens in cults or what's known as new religious movements 359 00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:15,479 Speaker 1: to use a nice euphemism, or even in extremist circles 360 00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:18,960 Speaker 1: within traditional religions. And again, the concept of brainwashing here 361 00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:22,320 Speaker 1: has been a very scientifically controversial one. I'm sure you've 362 00:19:22,359 --> 00:19:25,760 Speaker 1: seen this research before that there's a lot of back 363 00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:28,439 Speaker 1: and forth in the history of psychology, especially in the 364 00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:31,399 Speaker 1: second half of the twentieth century, about to what extent 365 00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:35,000 Speaker 1: brainwashing is a real thing or is this just sort 366 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:39,480 Speaker 1: of a non rigorous, made up concept based on intuitions 367 00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:42,920 Speaker 1: and not really based on research. Again, there's no doubt 368 00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:45,840 Speaker 1: that one person can influence the thoughts of the other. 369 00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:47,920 Speaker 1: But the idea that you can engage in this full 370 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:52,680 Speaker 1: coercive persuasion where you revolutionize someone else's mind completely against 371 00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:56,280 Speaker 1: their will, I think that's not widely supported. Yeah, and 372 00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:58,399 Speaker 1: it went away. It's just too simple, right, It's like 373 00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:02,680 Speaker 1: saying the basic idea being, oh, well, this person is 374 00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:04,560 Speaker 1: who they are, and they believe what they believe because 375 00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:07,760 Speaker 1: they they are privy to these influences. If we cut 376 00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:10,960 Speaker 1: off all of those influences and I'm the only influence, 377 00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:13,280 Speaker 1: then surely I can decide who they are for them, 378 00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:18,480 Speaker 1: which sounds simple enough and just doesn't seem to really 379 00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:21,399 Speaker 1: relate to how we to the human condition. Right, And 380 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:23,840 Speaker 1: you're not the only influence. They're bringing all of their 381 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:27,040 Speaker 1: past influences with them in memory. Yeah, it's not just 382 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:31,360 Speaker 1: we're not little water wheels turning in a stream. That's 383 00:20:31,359 --> 00:20:33,760 Speaker 1: a good metaphor. We are not. I always fall back 384 00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:37,200 Speaker 1: on water metaphors. Yeah, and so it will be worth 385 00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:39,320 Speaker 1: taking a bit of a look at that someday, I think, 386 00:20:39,359 --> 00:20:42,600 Speaker 1: But in my estimation to whatever extended actually happens. This 387 00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:46,679 Speaker 1: is also a somewhat different phenomenon from the kind of 388 00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:50,800 Speaker 1: mind flare, like uh, type mind control that we're talking 389 00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:54,480 Speaker 1: about earlier. Right, it's less It's not that it's less serious, 390 00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:57,439 Speaker 1: but there isn't so much a real time loss of 391 00:20:57,480 --> 00:21:00,959 Speaker 1: control over one's thoughts and behavior. It's rather just the 392 00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:05,640 Speaker 1: introduction of a very strongly influential set of beliefs and relationships, 393 00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:09,720 Speaker 1: maybe aided in their inception by stress and social pressure 394 00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:13,040 Speaker 1: and power dynamics between people and stuff like that. Yeah, 395 00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:15,280 Speaker 1: this is very much a topic I'd like to return 396 00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:19,040 Speaker 1: to the future to especially especially as it relates to cults, 397 00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:22,960 Speaker 1: to con artists. Um. Yeah, and and a number of 398 00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:25,679 Speaker 1: other scenarios come to mind. Some of the uh, you know, 399 00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:29,960 Speaker 1: to get into extremist religious models, for instance, the whole 400 00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:32,919 Speaker 1: you know, prey prey away, the gay kind of re 401 00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:37,600 Speaker 1: education efforts you see, which are not very successful because 402 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:40,640 Speaker 1: it again it comes down to, oh, this person who 403 00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:43,200 Speaker 1: they are based on, you know, not only their influences, 404 00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:46,639 Speaker 1: but just they're the way they were born. We're going 405 00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:49,080 Speaker 1: to change all that just by shutting off the other 406 00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:52,359 Speaker 1: influences and just coming at them straight with the prayer. 407 00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:55,160 Speaker 1: I think in many cases it's just taken a chalk 408 00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:58,280 Speaker 1: eraser too. It is to something written in sharpie. I mean, 409 00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:00,800 Speaker 1: you're not getting the job done. You might have smudge 410 00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:03,879 Speaker 1: it a little bit. But okay, So maybe we we 411 00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:06,480 Speaker 1: need a different kind of distinction because those aren't the 412 00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:09,040 Speaker 1: types of mind control we're really talking about that, and 413 00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:10,880 Speaker 1: I think the distinction will be I'm going to try 414 00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:13,760 Speaker 1: to introduce some terminology. We'll see how this goes the 415 00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:18,760 Speaker 1: difference between mind seeding and mind management. So what I 416 00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:24,440 Speaker 1: mean by that is that mind seating is planting ideas, arguments, images, 417 00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:28,040 Speaker 1: social impressions in somebody's mind that are designed to have 418 00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:30,960 Speaker 1: an influence on how they think and act, and down 419 00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:33,560 Speaker 1: the road will have some kind of influence on how 420 00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:36,840 Speaker 1: they think and act, whereas mind management is more what 421 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:40,199 Speaker 1: we see in dungeons and dragons or in these you know, 422 00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:44,840 Speaker 1: science fiction type scenarios, actively controlling the people's thoughts and 423 00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:49,000 Speaker 1: behaviors in close to real time. So mind seating is 424 00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:55,320 Speaker 1: manipulation or inception. Mind management is complete domination. It's the 425 00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:57,480 Speaker 1: mind flare thing is you know, I'm going to make 426 00:22:57,520 --> 00:22:59,840 Speaker 1: you go over there and pick up that dagger and 427 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:02,680 Speaker 1: attack the paladin. And this is the kind of mind 428 00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:06,720 Speaker 1: control where you're no longer in control of yourself you've 429 00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:10,040 Speaker 1: lost autonomy over your thoughts and actions. You feel you're 430 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:14,040 Speaker 1: being controlled by an external entity. And in fiction, of course, 431 00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:19,280 Speaker 1: as we've explored, these external entities would often be possessing spirits, 432 00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:23,440 Speaker 1: people with psychic powers, or science fiction mind control devices. 433 00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:25,679 Speaker 1: You know, somebody's got a little remote control with a 434 00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:28,600 Speaker 1: beam going at your head, and that they allow us 435 00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:33,080 Speaker 1: to be externally reprogrammed. But magic and science fiction aside, 436 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:37,359 Speaker 1: are these kinds of schemes possible in reality? And if so, 437 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:40,919 Speaker 1: if it's possible to have your mind controlled in this way, 438 00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:43,800 Speaker 1: what would it be like to be controlled from the 439 00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:49,359 Speaker 1: outside while still having a conscious experience of thought? All right, 440 00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:51,120 Speaker 1: well hold that thought. We're gonna take a quick break, 441 00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:53,919 Speaker 1: and when we come back, we will dive into this 442 00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:55,760 Speaker 1: question and try and figure out what it would be 443 00:23:55,800 --> 00:24:03,680 Speaker 1: like to have your mind controlled. So we were talking 444 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:07,000 Speaker 1: about mind flares earlier, and you were talking about mind 445 00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:11,800 Speaker 1: seeding versus mind management. I actually found the discussion of this, uh, 446 00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:15,439 Speaker 1: this very scenario that involves mind flares. Okay, yeah, it 447 00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:20,719 Speaker 1: was a doctoral dissertation at Harvard University by a humanist scholar, 448 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:24,159 Speaker 1: James Croft, and this was available online. I think it 449 00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:26,600 Speaker 1: still is available, but it was available as of like 450 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:30,280 Speaker 1: the other day. Pretty entertaining as far as doctoral dissertations. Yeah, 451 00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:33,480 Speaker 1: it was you know, really well written, very very very long, 452 00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:36,040 Speaker 1: and it did not all relate to mind flares. I 453 00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:39,439 Speaker 1: don't want him to give anyone the wrong impression. Uh. 454 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:42,960 Speaker 1: He merely brings up mind flares as an example something 455 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:45,640 Speaker 1: he was really into when he was younger, and using 456 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:49,040 Speaker 1: it to discuss uh free will. So he comes he 457 00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:52,960 Speaker 1: basically boils down mind control to two scenarios. He has 458 00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:57,000 Speaker 1: the novice mind flare scenario or in MF, in which 459 00:24:57,080 --> 00:25:01,680 Speaker 1: the mind flare commands your your actions but not your thoughts. 460 00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:03,640 Speaker 1: So this is one of those where you're like, ah, 461 00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:06,840 Speaker 1: the mind flare is making me attack the palatin. I 462 00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:09,240 Speaker 1: don't want to do this, as you hack the pallet 463 00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:12,000 Speaker 1: into death. So your consciousness is sort of an unwilling 464 00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:15,560 Speaker 1: prisoner in the vehicle of your body, and the body 465 00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:17,840 Speaker 1: is out of your control. Yeah, the very it's a 466 00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:21,520 Speaker 1: very nightmarish scenario, right, like, I can't I'm not in 467 00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:24,919 Speaker 1: control someone else's and I must live this experience. And 468 00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:27,880 Speaker 1: then the other one is the ultimate mind flare scenario 469 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:30,760 Speaker 1: or scenario or U m F in which the mind 470 00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:35,000 Speaker 1: flare commands not only your actions but also your underlying 471 00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:38,919 Speaker 1: thoughts and desires. So again, this comes down to I 472 00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:41,320 Speaker 1: want to pack the palate into death. This is what 473 00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:43,879 Speaker 1: I want more than anything. This is my choice, and 474 00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:46,000 Speaker 1: I am okay with it. So this is not being 475 00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:49,840 Speaker 1: a prisoner inside a body that's acting outside of your control, 476 00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:53,840 Speaker 1: but no longer being you having yourself or sense of 477 00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:58,639 Speaker 1: self changed by the outside controlling entity. That's right now, 478 00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:01,040 Speaker 1: I'd say both of these are more These are more 479 00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:04,840 Speaker 1: the mind management type. They're directly controlling your actions in 480 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:06,760 Speaker 1: next to real time. It's not just sort of like 481 00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:09,679 Speaker 1: having an influence on how you rank. Yeah. Yeah, these 482 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:12,280 Speaker 1: would both be examples of of the stronger form, but 483 00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:14,640 Speaker 1: but two different versions. And I think these are two 484 00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:17,080 Speaker 1: different versions that we do see utilize a lot in 485 00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:20,040 Speaker 1: fiction because they're both kind of neat right like the 486 00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:22,040 Speaker 1: first ones, I feel like a little more old fashioned 487 00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:24,800 Speaker 1: the idea of someone's dominating me and I'm not in control, 488 00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:27,400 Speaker 1: in control of my own actions. And sometimes I feel 489 00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:29,199 Speaker 1: like we have a tendency to want to rewrite our 490 00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:32,919 Speaker 1: past experiences, especially our mistakes, in that light, you know, like, 491 00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:36,240 Speaker 1: oh I was it was the drugs, it was the stress, 492 00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:40,120 Speaker 1: it was whatever is the the outside force, whatever your 493 00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:44,040 Speaker 1: personal mind flare is going to be uh as opposed 494 00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:47,520 Speaker 1: to the other, but both allow you to externalize the 495 00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:51,080 Speaker 1: source of your pain. But of course this idea of 496 00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:54,200 Speaker 1: especially the u m F idea, this ultimate mind flare idea, 497 00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:56,439 Speaker 1: this idea that you're just hit, you would have a 498 00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:59,879 Speaker 1: force rewriting your memory and personality as needed and just 499 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:03,040 Speaker 1: and you can't even tell it just feels like your decision. 500 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:06,919 Speaker 1: Uh Croft points out that this isn't really out of 501 00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:09,280 Speaker 1: keeping with how we live our lives all the time. 502 00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:12,480 Speaker 1: He says, quote, this is not to say that in 503 00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:15,679 Speaker 1: the normal course of events, when unburdened with a mindful air, 504 00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:19,399 Speaker 1: we're at total liberty to select what we value or desire. 505 00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:22,399 Speaker 1: Our values and desires are frequently an outcome of our experiences, 506 00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:24,919 Speaker 1: and we cannot change them through conscious effort. But to 507 00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:28,040 Speaker 1: be autonomous, I argue we need not be in total 508 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:31,280 Speaker 1: control over this aspect of our mental furniture. Rather, we 509 00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:34,199 Speaker 1: must learn to examine the values and desires that we, 510 00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:38,119 Speaker 1: for whatever reason, have developed, and consider to what extent 511 00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:40,960 Speaker 1: we wish to indulge them, resist them, or seek to 512 00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:43,600 Speaker 1: change them if we can. That's a good point. I 513 00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:47,159 Speaker 1: didn't pick my desires, you didn't pick your desires, and 514 00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:49,840 Speaker 1: yet we do have some kind of sense of agency 515 00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:52,960 Speaker 1: over to what extent we pursue them. Yeah. Now, granted, 516 00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:55,120 Speaker 1: we don't want to go too far into the absolute 517 00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:59,960 Speaker 1: abyss of a philosophical and neuroscientific contemplations of a free will, 518 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:02,720 Speaker 1: ill and human consciousness. So that's you know, that's the 519 00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:04,280 Speaker 1: topic we've hit on in the past, and I will 520 00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:05,960 Speaker 1: keep coming back to it because that's kind of the 521 00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:10,000 Speaker 1: human experience, the human condition in a nutshell, and it's 522 00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:13,120 Speaker 1: just one of the most interesting mysteries of reality. Yeah, 523 00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:15,800 Speaker 1: nobody's got an answer to the problem of consciousness, at 524 00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:17,840 Speaker 1: least as far as I've come across. Yeah, and there's 525 00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:22,280 Speaker 1: some great ideas, some pervasive theories, but nothing that's just 526 00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:26,280 Speaker 1: really gotten the stamp of absolute approval whoever would be 527 00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:29,119 Speaker 1: in a position outside of the human condition to stamp 528 00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:31,879 Speaker 1: that approval. But a lot of this comes down to 529 00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:36,159 Speaker 1: the basic idea of you know, the determinist view and 530 00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:39,760 Speaker 1: the indeterminist view. So the views of free will from 531 00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:44,080 Speaker 1: free will. Yes, So the philosophers Democratus and Lucippas saw 532 00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:47,880 Speaker 1: the universe is wholly governed by natural laws and composed 533 00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:51,640 Speaker 1: of indivisible atoms and this, so they took this determinous 534 00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:55,840 Speaker 1: view of a life propelled down a flowing stream. There's 535 00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:59,360 Speaker 1: the water of events. Aristotle, on the other hand, stressed 536 00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:03,560 Speaker 1: the individ juwele's responsibility for their actions, the indeterminates view 537 00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:07,000 Speaker 1: of life as a boat propelling itself through a body 538 00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:11,360 Speaker 1: of water. Uh. Yeah, I I've always so, I've encountered 539 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:14,080 Speaker 1: this philosophical distinction before, you know, like, are you a 540 00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:17,320 Speaker 1: determinist or not? And essentially that's saying like it does, 541 00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:21,680 Speaker 1: do you follow the laws of physics or not? And 542 00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:24,080 Speaker 1: so I have to think, well, then, of course, yeah, 543 00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:27,080 Speaker 1: the answer is yes, I followed the laws of physics. 544 00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:29,560 Speaker 1: My brain is composed of matter and it follows the 545 00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:32,360 Speaker 1: laws of physics. But I don't. And so a lot 546 00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:34,959 Speaker 1: of people would take this and say, okay, you're a determinist. 547 00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:37,760 Speaker 1: Then you think you don't really choose what you do. 548 00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:41,960 Speaker 1: Obviously that's untrue. I have a subjective experience of choosing 549 00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:45,120 Speaker 1: what I do, and I am choosing. But I think 550 00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:48,600 Speaker 1: where the determinus versus indeterminus view of the world comes 551 00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:51,280 Speaker 1: in is while I do choose the things I do, 552 00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:55,920 Speaker 1: there's no evidence that I could have chosen otherwise. Yeah. Yeah, 553 00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:58,280 Speaker 1: that's what it comes down to, Like, Yeah, you're choosing, 554 00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:01,160 Speaker 1: you're having the experience of choosing, But could you have 555 00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:04,360 Speaker 1: really made another choice in the in the multiple we 556 00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:07,040 Speaker 1: like to think of sometimes where I like to think 557 00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:09,520 Speaker 1: of like this multiverse where there's a different universe to 558 00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:12,480 Speaker 1: represent every little decision that you you could have made, 559 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:16,800 Speaker 1: for example, flossing your teeth. I am I am a 560 00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:21,239 Speaker 1: big proponent of flossing your teeth. You should absolutely do it. 561 00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:24,560 Speaker 1: I know a lot of people have trouble getting around 562 00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:28,600 Speaker 1: to it. So you might think there's an alternate universe 563 00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:32,160 Speaker 1: in the multiverse where last night you flost your teeth 564 00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:34,400 Speaker 1: like you were supposed to. But in reality, is it 565 00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:38,000 Speaker 1: just a myriad of universes and in all of them you, 566 00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:41,760 Speaker 1: or rather in none of them, there's tooth flossing. You're 567 00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:44,520 Speaker 1: just the flosco is unused in every single one of 568 00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:47,200 Speaker 1: them because you were not the type of person that 569 00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:51,600 Speaker 1: floss is their teeth, or at least you're not ready 570 00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:54,400 Speaker 1: to become that person yet. Well, whether you did last 571 00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:57,200 Speaker 1: night or not. What's the evidence that you could have 572 00:30:57,240 --> 00:31:01,120 Speaker 1: done differently than you did given the exact same starting circumstances. 573 00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:08,680 Speaker 1: I call it the the infinite too Floss theorem. Yes, well, 574 00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:11,800 Speaker 1: I mean this does bring up an interesting thing Croft's metaphor. 575 00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:15,800 Speaker 1: I think, is there too to emphasize this point about 576 00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:19,360 Speaker 1: free will? Like if you were really somehow being controlled 577 00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:23,440 Speaker 1: against your will, uh, and it was such that the 578 00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:27,000 Speaker 1: control was this ultimate mind flair type deep desire, you know, 579 00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:31,720 Speaker 1: your your consciousness is realigned to the outside controller's will, 580 00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:35,840 Speaker 1: and you didn't realize it. How would this type of 581 00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:40,840 Speaker 1: mind control be at all distinguishable from free will? Yeah? Yeah, 582 00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:44,640 Speaker 1: if if essentially, if God is using you as a puppet, 583 00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:49,280 Speaker 1: if God is influencing the world through you, would it 584 00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:51,120 Speaker 1: just maybe feel I mean maybe it would feel a 585 00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:53,360 Speaker 1: little thrilling with you know, who doesn't want to be 586 00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:57,680 Speaker 1: the glove of the almighty? But yeah, could you tell 587 00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:00,760 Speaker 1: the difference between that and just going about your normal business? 588 00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:03,200 Speaker 1: So this does seem to suggest that on some level, 589 00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:05,960 Speaker 1: if such a thing as mind control were possible, and 590 00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:09,040 Speaker 1: it were this deep type you know, deep mind management, 591 00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:12,440 Speaker 1: controlling not just your actions but your desires, you might 592 00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:15,080 Speaker 1: not even know what was happening. Yeah, we could all 593 00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:18,640 Speaker 1: be controlled, not to get to Just for the sake 594 00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:21,480 Speaker 1: of argument, I'm not putting forth the conspiracy theory here, 595 00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:23,480 Speaker 1: but yeah, we could be all We could all be 596 00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:26,520 Speaker 1: controlled at any given moment, and it would just feel 597 00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:29,000 Speaker 1: like our normal lives. Right. Okay, Well, maybe I think 598 00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:31,600 Speaker 1: we should hit some hard solid ground. Let's let's let's 599 00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:33,960 Speaker 1: return to the surface and try to figure out No, 600 00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:37,760 Speaker 1: wait a minute, we've talked about the possibilities of mind 601 00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:41,600 Speaker 1: control and how it would interact with our conceptions philosophical 602 00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:45,160 Speaker 1: conceptions about free will are conscious experience. But how could 603 00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:47,959 Speaker 1: you do it if you were really gonna try? Like, 604 00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:51,360 Speaker 1: do we have neuro technology devices that allow you to 605 00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:57,200 Speaker 1: completely control the thoughts and actions of another person? Short answer, 606 00:32:57,560 --> 00:33:00,520 Speaker 1: I want to say no, uh, and I don't think 607 00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:03,280 Speaker 1: we're going to, But we we do have the power 608 00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:08,840 Speaker 1: to have some kind of very very simple, prescribed types 609 00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:12,080 Speaker 1: of influences on people's brains. Yes, I would say that 610 00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:15,440 Speaker 1: we do not have precision instruments, but we do have 611 00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:18,440 Speaker 1: blunt instruments. Yeah, that's a good way of putting it. 612 00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:20,680 Speaker 1: So let me give you a quick look through here. 613 00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:22,520 Speaker 1: If you want to really in depth look at the 614 00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:25,800 Speaker 1: state of brain computer interfaces and brain to brain interfaces. 615 00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:29,360 Speaker 1: You should go back to our decemberisode called Brain to 616 00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:32,120 Speaker 1: Brain the Science of Techno Telepathy, where we talked about 617 00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:35,320 Speaker 1: a lot of these experiments in detail. Do you think 618 00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:38,560 Speaker 1: there's something to this that when it comes to the holidays, 619 00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:40,320 Speaker 1: we can't help but think about mind control? Is it 620 00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:43,600 Speaker 1: something to do with how the holidays and Christmas are 621 00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:45,880 Speaker 1: just really pounded into your skull by the media. I 622 00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:49,000 Speaker 1: think there there may very well be something there, especially 623 00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:52,200 Speaker 1: because Santa Claus is getting into our brain. That's right, 624 00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:57,760 Speaker 1: he knows he's not just watching your behavior, he's really 625 00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:02,040 Speaker 1: manipulating it is uh okay, So brief refresher on on 626 00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:05,520 Speaker 1: these neural interfaces. So there are ways to get information 627 00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:09,080 Speaker 1: into and out of the human brain without the usual channels. 628 00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:12,440 Speaker 1: In other words, this means brain output without speech or 629 00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:16,880 Speaker 1: body movement and brain input without perception through the senses. 630 00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:20,880 Speaker 1: And to get information out of a brain without speech 631 00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:24,000 Speaker 1: or body movement. They're they're two major approaches. You split 632 00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:28,280 Speaker 1: them into minimally invasive and more invasive. The minimally invasive 633 00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:32,080 Speaker 1: things are there are things like electro and cephalography, caps 634 00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:34,480 Speaker 1: or e G caps, and this looks like a swim 635 00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:38,040 Speaker 1: cap covered in electrodes. Put some goo on your head. 636 00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:40,719 Speaker 1: You put the thing over your head, and they can 637 00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:45,520 Speaker 1: read electrical activity of the brain. But they're very, very crude, 638 00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:49,040 Speaker 1: because they're trying to read your brain through your skull. 639 00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:52,040 Speaker 1: One really good metaphor I've read to explain this was 640 00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:55,080 Speaker 1: a researcher who compared reading the brain activity through an 641 00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:58,720 Speaker 1: e G cap too trying to follow a professional soccer 642 00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:01,240 Speaker 1: game by standing outside at the stadium in the parking. 643 00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:05,399 Speaker 1: You can tell when somebody scored a goal right when 644 00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:09,080 Speaker 1: there's huge sudden activity, but you can't call the game 645 00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:12,040 Speaker 1: play by play. And I would add maybe with some microphones, 646 00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:15,719 Speaker 1: you know, a train computer algorithm and some feedback, you 647 00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:18,480 Speaker 1: can pick out sound profiles of a few other types 648 00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:22,239 Speaker 1: of events, which is somewhat true along in the e 649 00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:25,520 Speaker 1: G analogy, But it's just not a very sensitive instrument 650 00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:29,040 Speaker 1: in terms of deep complexity of the brain. Uh. More 651 00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:33,200 Speaker 1: invasive methods are more sensitive, For example, implanted micro electrodes 652 00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:35,920 Speaker 1: inside the brain, putting little wires running out through the 653 00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:39,600 Speaker 1: skull to a wired connection or a transmitter antenna, and 654 00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:42,719 Speaker 1: you can read the activity down at the neuron level 655 00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:46,520 Speaker 1: really in much more detail. But these require surgery connection 656 00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:49,080 Speaker 1: to external equipment, and it's not like we can just 657 00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:52,959 Speaker 1: read the electrical activity of the brain and and read 658 00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:55,840 Speaker 1: it like a you know, like a screen output or something. 659 00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:58,200 Speaker 1: You know, we don't know the language that it's speaking. 660 00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:00,920 Speaker 1: So what would be the soccer met for for that 661 00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:07,439 Speaker 1: one you're watching aliens play a sport in another language. No, 662 00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:11,279 Speaker 1: that's not quite so anyway, But that's the output. So 663 00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:14,400 Speaker 1: for mind control, we're actually primarily interested not in output 664 00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:19,319 Speaker 1: methods but an input in unconventional methods of putting information 665 00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:23,360 Speaker 1: into the brain such that it has a desired effect 666 00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:25,400 Speaker 1: upon the mind of the subjects, such as like the 667 00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:29,080 Speaker 1: inception of a belief or a perception or causing action, 668 00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:31,319 Speaker 1: and putting it into the brain in such a way 669 00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:35,520 Speaker 1: that it bypasses the normal filters we have for incoming 670 00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:38,640 Speaker 1: information and commands. So if it does know better than 671 00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:42,040 Speaker 1: somebody telling you verbally to do something, then that's no good, 672 00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:44,719 Speaker 1: right it has to be trying to go straight to 673 00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:47,120 Speaker 1: some deeper part of your brain that's not going to 674 00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:51,400 Speaker 1: meet an information filter. With these input methods, there are 675 00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:57,799 Speaker 1: also minimally invasive methods, for example, transcranial magnetic stimulation or TMS, 676 00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:02,080 Speaker 1: And this is actually a simple. It means you put 677 00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:06,000 Speaker 1: a big electromagnetic coil very carefully over a very specific 678 00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:09,239 Speaker 1: part of the skull, and then you can generate effects 679 00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:12,640 Speaker 1: in the person's brain and body when you pass current 680 00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:15,279 Speaker 1: through the coil. One common example would be causing an 681 00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:19,440 Speaker 1: involuntary twitch of the hand if you position it just right. 682 00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:21,359 Speaker 1: And this is because, of course, the brain is an 683 00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:26,480 Speaker 1: electrochemical machine and it's got If you run magnetic fields, 684 00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:29,320 Speaker 1: they interact with the electrical current. You may have observed 685 00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:32,120 Speaker 1: this if you ever held a powerful magnet too close 686 00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:34,080 Speaker 1: to an old TV screen. Did you ever do that 687 00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:37,080 Speaker 1: for fun? I don't think I did well anyway. Yeah, 688 00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:40,640 Speaker 1: so yeah, okay, well with a maybe with a TV 689 00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:44,160 Speaker 1: that you don't need anymore. Um, I don't know how 690 00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:46,600 Speaker 1: damaging it actually is. I wouldn't recommend it with any 691 00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:51,520 Speaker 1: prized electronic equipment. But but basically, yeah, you can interfere 692 00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:53,400 Speaker 1: with the brain and you can cause some kind of 693 00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:56,800 Speaker 1: blunt instrument type effects like I made your leg twitch 694 00:37:56,920 --> 00:38:00,960 Speaker 1: or I made your hand twitch. More invasive methods are 695 00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:03,479 Speaker 1: pretty much the same as the output methods. They run 696 00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:08,200 Speaker 1: wires into your skull with microelectrodes attached to carefully uh 697 00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:11,920 Speaker 1: designated little spots inside the brain, and then they've got 698 00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:15,240 Speaker 1: to run out through your skull. But from what I've read, UM, 699 00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:18,960 Speaker 1: these motor control takeovers who do with these input and 700 00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:22,960 Speaker 1: output methods, they are they're they're they're just perceived as 701 00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:26,319 Speaker 1: an involuntary twitch. Like sometimes this happens to you, You're 702 00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:28,360 Speaker 1: just like, oh, I just twitched. You know, you didn't 703 00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:31,000 Speaker 1: plan on doing it, It just happened. And that's sort 704 00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:33,480 Speaker 1: of what it feels like like when you're just going 705 00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:35,799 Speaker 1: about your daily businessessarily get a shiver, like a full 706 00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:39,160 Speaker 1: body shiver. Yeah, Like maybe that is the mind controlling 707 00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:42,120 Speaker 1: agent pulling out of your body, but they're not getting 708 00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:45,560 Speaker 1: much done just by making the making you shiver, right, Yeah. 709 00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:48,560 Speaker 1: I mean some of these TMS experiments have been called 710 00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:51,000 Speaker 1: mind control in the media, but I don't buy it. 711 00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:54,320 Speaker 1: I don't think that's an accurate description because a twitch 712 00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:57,080 Speaker 1: of the hand or another common thing is um the 713 00:38:57,160 --> 00:39:00,680 Speaker 1: perception of non existent lights behind closed diyes. These are 714 00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:03,919 Speaker 1: called phosphenes. If you close your eyes and they put 715 00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:08,680 Speaker 1: the t MS coil over your your ocular your your vision, 716 00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:11,880 Speaker 1: you know, visual cortex. They can make you see these lights. 717 00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:16,400 Speaker 1: These are not mind control. These are extremely simple, imprecise stimuli, 718 00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:19,120 Speaker 1: and for the foreseeable future, it seems like would be 719 00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:21,799 Speaker 1: nearly impossible to use them to get somebody to do 720 00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:25,080 Speaker 1: something complex that they didn't really want to do, like 721 00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:28,560 Speaker 1: I'm going to make you assassinate our target or whatever. Yeah. 722 00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:31,080 Speaker 1: Like the idea that you're controlling the mind is ridiculous 723 00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:33,400 Speaker 1: because the mind, I like to think the mind is 724 00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:36,799 Speaker 1: the shadow cast by the physical brain. And they're not 725 00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:39,920 Speaker 1: even trolling the brain here. They're basically controlling the body 726 00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:45,160 Speaker 1: or certain since information since reinformation by essentially poking at 727 00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:47,920 Speaker 1: the brain, right, And these are for what I was 728 00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:50,000 Speaker 1: trying to focus on, motor control. And now, of course, 729 00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:53,439 Speaker 1: there are other types of neurotechnology that have been used 730 00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:58,160 Speaker 1: to sort of change people's uh susceptibility to certain types 731 00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:00,640 Speaker 1: of feelings. You know, we've talked about the the research 732 00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:02,880 Speaker 1: on the god helmet and stuff like that. Yeah, and 733 00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:05,920 Speaker 1: there's a lot of cool research out there that that 734 00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:09,279 Speaker 1: indicates the future of even mental health treatment. Who's going 735 00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:11,600 Speaker 1: to revolve around some of these technologies, But it comes 736 00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:14,560 Speaker 1: down to that that situation where we don't have the 737 00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:17,560 Speaker 1: precise instruments, yet we have the blunt instruments exactly. Even 738 00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:20,160 Speaker 1: the things like that are blunt instruments that they're just 739 00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:24,480 Speaker 1: capable of producing a very generalized effect. Probably doesn't work 740 00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:28,040 Speaker 1: on everybody, doesn't work every time, and it's and it 741 00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:34,120 Speaker 1: and it doesn't lead to complex motor responses and programmed behaviors. 742 00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:36,760 Speaker 1: It just is like it's a one trick pony generally. 743 00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:40,360 Speaker 1: So this makes me think, Okay, if hard neurotech can't 744 00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:43,760 Speaker 1: get us to anything like real mind control, getting somebody 745 00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:46,600 Speaker 1: to you know, go carry out the covert assassination or 746 00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:50,359 Speaker 1: whatever like that, are there any scientifically plausible ways other 747 00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:54,080 Speaker 1: ways to bend someone to your will with complex, meaningful 748 00:40:54,640 --> 00:41:00,600 Speaker 1: program to behaviors, beliefs, and perceptions. How about hypnosis? If 749 00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:03,960 Speaker 1: if TV is any indication, then yes, anybody can just 750 00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:07,040 Speaker 1: wander in with a medallion, like like a gold medallion 751 00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:09,200 Speaker 1: and a chain started pocket watch you have. The pocket 752 00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:13,320 Speaker 1: watch is a big one. Start wiggling that around and wammo, 753 00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:16,520 Speaker 1: you're enthralled. Well, I think we should take a quick 754 00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:18,640 Speaker 1: break and when we come back, we will look at 755 00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:21,360 Speaker 1: the science of hypnosis, Is it real? Is it bunk? 756 00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:24,040 Speaker 1: If so, how far can a hypnotist to take you? 757 00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:32,080 Speaker 1: And what does it feel like? So for years I 758 00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:36,160 Speaker 1: have been very suspicious of the use of hypnosis in science, 759 00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:38,440 Speaker 1: and I admit I'd never really read all that deeply 760 00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:40,440 Speaker 1: into it. It was just one of those things I 761 00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:43,120 Speaker 1: was peripherally aware of. I knew it from popular culture, 762 00:41:43,640 --> 00:41:47,120 Speaker 1: and I would often just look at, you know, stuff 763 00:41:47,160 --> 00:41:50,680 Speaker 1: about hypnosis and think, is this real? Is this real science? 764 00:41:51,640 --> 00:41:55,480 Speaker 1: It's obvious to me that many uses of hypnosis are 765 00:41:55,600 --> 00:42:00,200 Speaker 1: bogus thirty ways. It's a lot of it is just garbaege, 766 00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:03,080 Speaker 1: and a lot of it is uh not not necessarily 767 00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:06,080 Speaker 1: just garbage, but it is people playing along in a 768 00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:09,560 Speaker 1: kind of social game, if that makes any sense, that 769 00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:13,239 Speaker 1: there are social pressures to behave a certain way, it's 770 00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:18,200 Speaker 1: not necessarily garbage. Depending on how it's presented, like like basically, 771 00:42:18,239 --> 00:42:21,080 Speaker 1: aside from the TV hypnotist, the thing that often comes 772 00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:23,640 Speaker 1: to mind or stage hypnotist, they're putting on a show, 773 00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:27,080 Speaker 1: maybe at an office Christmas party, and it depends how 774 00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:29,200 Speaker 1: that's presented. If it's presented like here's a person with 775 00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:33,720 Speaker 1: magical powers or powers over the mind. Maybe you should 776 00:42:33,719 --> 00:42:35,560 Speaker 1: give them money. Yeah, that's bad. But if it's presented 777 00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:39,160 Speaker 1: is like, here's the evening's entertainment, and it's you know, 778 00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:42,040 Speaker 1: not necessarily anything nefarious going on there, but it's also 779 00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:45,920 Speaker 1: very much like a magician's act. I shouldn't have said garbage. No, no, 780 00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:48,920 Speaker 1: but but I I get what you're saying, but just 781 00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:50,960 Speaker 1: flushing it out a little bit here. That there depends 782 00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:56,120 Speaker 1: on the context. Uh, garbage and entertainment depend on what 783 00:42:56,239 --> 00:42:59,840 Speaker 1: sort of fees your you're requiring of the participants, I guess, 784 00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:02,480 Speaker 1: But I want to say, after doing research for this episode, 785 00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:06,880 Speaker 1: I've had my mind changed. I think I'm convinced. No, 786 00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:09,200 Speaker 1: I didn't. I didn't. I just did a bunch of reading, 787 00:43:09,239 --> 00:43:12,160 Speaker 1: and I think I'm convinced that at least in some cases, 788 00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:18,520 Speaker 1: hypnotists are creating a genuine altered state of consciousness in 789 00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:22,440 Speaker 1: which the subject's level of suggestibility is increased and in 790 00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:26,239 Speaker 1: some cases drastically increased. And I would also say that, 791 00:43:26,320 --> 00:43:28,320 Speaker 1: at least as far as I can tell, there's nothing 792 00:43:28,440 --> 00:43:32,200 Speaker 1: especially spooky going on here with hypnosis. Hypnotism I think 793 00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:37,520 Speaker 1: maybe compared somewhat to meditation, where an altered state of 794 00:43:37,560 --> 00:43:41,799 Speaker 1: mind is brought about by mental exercises without necessitating the 795 00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:45,600 Speaker 1: use of drugs or neurotechnology. Yeah, I would say so. 796 00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:49,400 Speaker 1: I mean so so often the the hypnotic experience, the 797 00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:53,279 Speaker 1: trance is described in very relaxing terms. It's you're in 798 00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:56,840 Speaker 1: a relaxed state. You're also but you're also in a 799 00:43:57,040 --> 00:44:02,240 Speaker 1: susceptible state. Yeah, but only within reason. Yeah. I'll definitely 800 00:44:02,239 --> 00:44:04,520 Speaker 1: get more into the details in a minute. But I 801 00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:08,560 Speaker 1: wanted to think about the idea of hypnotism, and it's 802 00:44:08,680 --> 00:44:11,720 Speaker 1: linked to the idea of mind control, and this actually 803 00:44:11,719 --> 00:44:15,480 Speaker 1: goes way back hypnoi. Hypnotism certainly does come up when 804 00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:19,200 Speaker 1: considering methods of mind control, sort of from the inception. 805 00:44:19,520 --> 00:44:24,120 Speaker 1: Uh so. The French physician and early clinical hypnotist George 806 00:44:24,200 --> 00:44:27,880 Speaker 1: Gille de la Tourette, who Tourette syndrome is named after. Uh. 807 00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:33,520 Speaker 1: He was in his home in December eighteen when he 808 00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:37,640 Speaker 1: was met by a patient of his who claimed that 809 00:44:37,719 --> 00:44:40,520 Speaker 1: after she had been hypnotized under the care of gil 810 00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:44,160 Speaker 1: de la Tourette and his colleagues, uh, someone had begun 811 00:44:44,280 --> 00:44:48,720 Speaker 1: remotely controlling her mind and she shot him. She shot 812 00:44:48,760 --> 00:44:52,040 Speaker 1: him in the back of the neck, damaged his head um. 813 00:44:52,040 --> 00:44:56,000 Speaker 1: This woman was named Rose Camper, and after she was arrested, 814 00:44:56,040 --> 00:44:58,600 Speaker 1: she gave the following statement. Obviously this is an English 815 00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:02,480 Speaker 1: translation of it, but she said, quote, within me, there 816 00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:06,920 Speaker 1: are actually two different people, one physical and one intellectual. 817 00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:10,680 Speaker 1: My thoughts no longer belong only to me, but also 818 00:45:10,760 --> 00:45:14,320 Speaker 1: to those who possess me. During the day, my intellect 819 00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:17,120 Speaker 1: allows me to resist the powers which inter me without 820 00:45:17,160 --> 00:45:20,319 Speaker 1: my knowledge. But at night I am overpowered, and it 821 00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:23,799 Speaker 1: is to defend myself against these impulses that I bought 822 00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:28,280 Speaker 1: a revolver in the Rue de Rivoli two months ago. Rivoli. 823 00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:30,000 Speaker 1: I don't know how you pronounce that, but yeah. So 824 00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:34,160 Speaker 1: she's describing that she believes she's she's suffering mind control. 825 00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:38,040 Speaker 1: She's been put under hypnosis by these therapists in a 826 00:45:38,120 --> 00:45:42,640 Speaker 1: hospital setting, uh in nineteenth century France, and she thinks 827 00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:45,640 Speaker 1: her mind is being controlled. Now, I would say that no, 828 00:45:45,760 --> 00:45:49,120 Speaker 1: no historians or anybody really think that Miss Camper's doctors 829 00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:53,040 Speaker 1: were actually controlling her remotely against her will. But hypnosis 830 00:45:53,080 --> 00:45:57,239 Speaker 1: seemed to give her this subjective sensation. So is it 831 00:45:57,280 --> 00:46:00,839 Speaker 1: possible to control somebody's mind at the levels we've been 832 00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:04,160 Speaker 1: talking about this? Uh? You know the mind management type 833 00:46:04,239 --> 00:46:07,760 Speaker 1: level with hypnosis, and if so, what does it feel 834 00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:11,640 Speaker 1: like for the subject of the hypnotic control. Okay, so 835 00:46:11,719 --> 00:46:15,760 Speaker 1: first of all, what is hypnosis? Basically, if it's working 836 00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:19,400 Speaker 1: as suspected or as suggested by people who believe in it, 837 00:46:19,920 --> 00:46:25,840 Speaker 1: hypnotization is an altered state of consciousness characterized by relaxation, 838 00:46:27,120 --> 00:46:31,719 Speaker 1: narrowing of focus on a single all absorbing stimulus, sort 839 00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:35,759 Speaker 1: of usually the hypnotists voice, where you push out all 840 00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:39,400 Speaker 1: of the other influences and distractions and you just intensely 841 00:46:39,440 --> 00:46:43,319 Speaker 1: focused on this one thing, this hypnotist talking to you 842 00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:48,000 Speaker 1: and giving you instructions. And also it's characterized by heightened 843 00:46:48,040 --> 00:46:52,840 Speaker 1: suggestibility or the lack of inhibition and following instructions or 844 00:46:52,960 --> 00:46:57,719 Speaker 1: perceiving suggested perceptions that aren't really there. An example might 845 00:46:57,719 --> 00:47:00,279 Speaker 1: be like, you know, they say a balloon and is 846 00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:03,200 Speaker 1: attached to your leg and lifting it up gently and 847 00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:06,440 Speaker 1: and you actually have this sensation of lightning and you 848 00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:09,120 Speaker 1: start to raise your ankle up, which I mean that 849 00:47:09,320 --> 00:47:12,360 Speaker 1: is exactly guided meditation too. You know, the idea that 850 00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:15,200 Speaker 1: someone is is taking you on this sort of mental 851 00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:18,680 Speaker 1: journey to read lead to this relaxed state. Um I've 852 00:47:18,719 --> 00:47:22,960 Speaker 1: also heard hypnosis and that the hypnotic trance state described 853 00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:27,319 Speaker 1: in terms of heightened imagination not onlike daydreaming, and a 854 00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:31,840 Speaker 1: certain loss of self that is uh about like you know, 855 00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:35,200 Speaker 1: it's it's really it's relatable to getting really lost in 856 00:47:35,200 --> 00:47:37,880 Speaker 1: a movie or book. Yeah. Yeah, there's a sort of 857 00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:42,920 Speaker 1: sense of dissociation. It's often associated with it, dissociation associated. 858 00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:47,319 Speaker 1: But yeah, So another big thing to be aware of 859 00:47:47,480 --> 00:47:50,200 Speaker 1: is that pretty much everybody agrees that different people have 860 00:47:50,400 --> 00:47:56,040 Speaker 1: highly different scores of hypnotic suggestibility. So you might be 861 00:47:56,200 --> 00:48:00,239 Speaker 1: highly hypnotize herbal and I might be completely unhypnotized. Well, 862 00:48:00,239 --> 00:48:04,239 Speaker 1: many people are pretty much impossible to hypnotize. Some can 863 00:48:04,280 --> 00:48:07,919 Speaker 1: be hypnotized, but they're not highly suggestible. And then some 864 00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:11,640 Speaker 1: small subset of people I've read estimates of around ten 865 00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:16,560 Speaker 1: percent or maybe something like that, are highly suggestible under hypnosis. 866 00:48:17,160 --> 00:48:20,600 Speaker 1: They go into a hypnotic procedure, they're they're put under hypnosis, 867 00:48:20,640 --> 00:48:24,440 Speaker 1: and they can be talked into perceiving, believing, and doing 868 00:48:24,600 --> 00:48:27,560 Speaker 1: a lot. This is so, this is where we're getting 869 00:48:27,880 --> 00:48:31,040 Speaker 1: potentially into the cluck like a chicken area, right, That's 870 00:48:31,080 --> 00:48:34,120 Speaker 1: the the classic stage hypnotist trick, though, That's one of 871 00:48:34,160 --> 00:48:36,480 Speaker 1: the tough ones, because if if you're again referring to 872 00:48:36,520 --> 00:48:39,040 Speaker 1: the stage hypnotists, the question is like, well, I mean, 873 00:48:39,080 --> 00:48:42,360 Speaker 1: are people just are they just playing along? Does the 874 00:48:42,440 --> 00:48:46,120 Speaker 1: hypnotist actually have some kind of power over them other 875 00:48:46,280 --> 00:48:49,120 Speaker 1: than just the fact that they're in a social setting. 876 00:48:49,280 --> 00:48:52,480 Speaker 1: They're in a performance. They want to they want everybody 877 00:48:52,480 --> 00:48:54,399 Speaker 1: there to have a good time, so they just sort 878 00:48:54,440 --> 00:48:56,640 Speaker 1: of do what they're told because it's funny. Yeah, I mean, 879 00:48:56,680 --> 00:48:58,680 Speaker 1: it's the stage powers, the same power a magician. A 880 00:48:58,680 --> 00:49:02,520 Speaker 1: magician doesn't actually have our over physical reality, but on 881 00:49:02,560 --> 00:49:05,759 Speaker 1: the stage they have power. They command attention. There are 882 00:49:05,800 --> 00:49:09,280 Speaker 1: certain rules, there's a certain rhythm and ritual of things. 883 00:49:09,320 --> 00:49:12,040 Speaker 1: That is, if you're not familiar with it before you 884 00:49:12,040 --> 00:49:15,000 Speaker 1: attend the show, then the magician makes you aware of it. 885 00:49:15,080 --> 00:49:19,520 Speaker 1: They established the rules, and so does the stage hypnotist. Yeah, 886 00:49:19,600 --> 00:49:20,960 Speaker 1: and so there are There are a few things to 887 00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:23,279 Speaker 1: say about this. One is that while this certainly isn't 888 00:49:23,280 --> 00:49:26,320 Speaker 1: good enough to count as scientific data, it's worth noting 889 00:49:26,320 --> 00:49:30,239 Speaker 1: the cornucopia of firsthand reports of people who claim to 890 00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:34,560 Speaker 1: have been put under hypnosis, who demonstrated hypnotic suggestibility. They 891 00:49:34,560 --> 00:49:37,960 Speaker 1: followed instructions in some cases to two very strange ends, 892 00:49:38,640 --> 00:49:41,560 Speaker 1: and they claim at least that they didn't feel like 893 00:49:41,600 --> 00:49:43,799 Speaker 1: they were faking it. Some people say they were faking it, 894 00:49:43,880 --> 00:49:45,840 Speaker 1: but lots of people say, no, it didn't feel like 895 00:49:45,880 --> 00:49:48,080 Speaker 1: that at all. I you know, it was totally it 896 00:49:48,480 --> 00:49:51,719 Speaker 1: felt like it was outside my power. Another thing to 897 00:49:51,760 --> 00:49:55,879 Speaker 1: consider would be there are some brain scanning experiments that 898 00:49:56,200 --> 00:50:00,200 Speaker 1: appear to show different uses of the brain when to 899 00:50:00,320 --> 00:50:05,400 Speaker 1: perceive something as real during hypnosis versus just being asked 900 00:50:05,400 --> 00:50:10,160 Speaker 1: to imagine the same thing as real when not under hypnosis. Uh, 901 00:50:10,239 --> 00:50:12,879 Speaker 1: and so this is take that for what it's worth. 902 00:50:12,960 --> 00:50:15,400 Speaker 1: This is also subject to the skeptical screen door we 903 00:50:15,480 --> 00:50:17,680 Speaker 1: might want to always keep between ourselves and these sorts 904 00:50:17,680 --> 00:50:20,239 Speaker 1: of brain scanning studies for the time being, and we're 905 00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:23,920 Speaker 1: all familiar with the problems with those. Another good thing 906 00:50:24,000 --> 00:50:27,160 Speaker 1: to point out is that there is not any good evidence, 907 00:50:27,239 --> 00:50:29,960 Speaker 1: or nothing I came across suggested there's any good evidence 908 00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:33,160 Speaker 1: that hypnosis can help people recover lost memories. I think 909 00:50:33,160 --> 00:50:36,759 Speaker 1: you guys covered this sum and your satanic panic episode, right, Yeah, Yeah, 910 00:50:36,800 --> 00:50:39,960 Speaker 1: that's kind of a whole can of worms there, But yeah, 911 00:50:39,960 --> 00:50:42,880 Speaker 1: you get into the whole you're trying to recover lost memories, 912 00:50:43,200 --> 00:50:47,040 Speaker 1: but there's all there's a greater possibility that you're just 913 00:50:47,719 --> 00:50:51,759 Speaker 1: essentially accepting planting memories instead. Yeah, there seems to be 914 00:50:51,760 --> 00:50:55,920 Speaker 1: some evidence that people, uh, the hypnosis can create the 915 00:50:55,960 --> 00:50:59,160 Speaker 1: impression that memories are being recovered, but there's no actual 916 00:50:59,320 --> 00:51:02,759 Speaker 1: recall of a aditional information. Right, Yeah, you're just you're 917 00:51:02,800 --> 00:51:06,640 Speaker 1: just tweaking, you're tweaking the memories, creating new memories. But 918 00:51:07,480 --> 00:51:11,160 Speaker 1: as far as like restoring lost ones, probably not. How 919 00:51:11,160 --> 00:51:14,040 Speaker 1: about another thing, how about placebo effects. This would be 920 00:51:14,080 --> 00:51:16,520 Speaker 1: kind of different than faking, right that this would be 921 00:51:16,760 --> 00:51:20,560 Speaker 1: What if it's just belief in the power of hypnosis 922 00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:24,440 Speaker 1: that makes people susceptible to hypnosis. You know what if 923 00:51:24,480 --> 00:51:28,719 Speaker 1: you're only responding to the hypnotist because you think hypnotism works, 924 00:51:29,239 --> 00:51:31,680 Speaker 1: that's true that that has to be a major player 925 00:51:31,719 --> 00:51:33,799 Speaker 1: as well. Yeah, it's always a concern. But there are 926 00:51:33,800 --> 00:51:36,040 Speaker 1: a couple of studies that, if valid, I think, would 927 00:51:36,040 --> 00:51:39,760 Speaker 1: seem to argue against the placebo effects ability to explain 928 00:51:39,840 --> 00:51:42,799 Speaker 1: all of the effects of hypnosis. One of these that 929 00:51:42,920 --> 00:51:46,520 Speaker 1: I looked at was called can expectation enhance response to 930 00:51:46,560 --> 00:51:52,960 Speaker 1: suggestion de automization or d automatization. What they got these 931 00:51:53,000 --> 00:51:57,640 Speaker 1: great terms, don't they illuminates a conundrum from consciousness and 932 00:51:57,640 --> 00:52:01,640 Speaker 1: cognition in and uh the authors, I'm not going to 933 00:52:01,760 --> 00:52:05,000 Speaker 1: get into their whole experiment, but essentially it involved comparing 934 00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:07,560 Speaker 1: the results of people who were actually put under hypnosis 935 00:52:07,560 --> 00:52:11,359 Speaker 1: with people who were expecting to be put under hypnosis 936 00:52:11,400 --> 00:52:14,960 Speaker 1: and had been conditioned to expect that they were highly 937 00:52:15,040 --> 00:52:19,160 Speaker 1: suggestible to hypnosis. But then we're not put under hypnosis. 938 00:52:19,200 --> 00:52:21,800 Speaker 1: And they said in the end that their findings intimate 939 00:52:21,880 --> 00:52:25,760 Speaker 1: that quote, at least in the present experimental context, expectation 940 00:52:26,000 --> 00:52:29,640 Speaker 1: hardly correlates with and is unlikely to be a primary 941 00:52:29,680 --> 00:52:33,520 Speaker 1: determinant of high hypnotics suggestibility. So they found that the 942 00:52:33,520 --> 00:52:37,759 Speaker 1: placebo effect, which is just expecting to be hypnotize herbal 943 00:52:38,160 --> 00:52:41,759 Speaker 1: can perhaps explain some small amount of hypnosis response, but 944 00:52:41,880 --> 00:52:45,480 Speaker 1: definitely not all of it. So obviously what we need 945 00:52:45,520 --> 00:52:47,640 Speaker 1: to do here is look up the papers where they 946 00:52:47,680 --> 00:52:49,880 Speaker 1: put somebody under hypnosis and tried to get them to 947 00:52:49,920 --> 00:52:54,640 Speaker 1: assassinate somebody. Right, Oh, yes, those those studies. Um, somehow 948 00:52:54,680 --> 00:52:56,800 Speaker 1: I don't think those really those tend to pass the board, 949 00:52:56,800 --> 00:53:00,400 Speaker 1: do that? No? Ethics, you know, ethics limitations in So, 950 00:53:00,680 --> 00:53:03,880 Speaker 1: how far can you push hypnosis UH in research in 951 00:53:03,920 --> 00:53:07,799 Speaker 1: a university or clinical setting. Well, they don't tend to 952 00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:10,160 Speaker 1: take it too far in those settings. But I do 953 00:53:10,280 --> 00:53:12,400 Speaker 1: have one really interesting example that we're gonna get to 954 00:53:12,480 --> 00:53:14,960 Speaker 1: in a minute. But first I thought, I thought it 955 00:53:14,960 --> 00:53:17,520 Speaker 1: would be good to look at places where we can 956 00:53:17,560 --> 00:53:20,840 Speaker 1: count on people to be unethical, which is that governments 957 00:53:20,840 --> 00:53:24,400 Speaker 1: have tried to take hypnosis to the limit. Hypnosis among 958 00:53:24,480 --> 00:53:27,359 Speaker 1: other types of experiments. So for example, we now throw 959 00:53:27,560 --> 00:53:32,440 Speaker 1: no through uh declassified documents that the CIA conducted projects 960 00:53:32,440 --> 00:53:35,960 Speaker 1: in the nineteen fifties through the nineteen sixties designed to 961 00:53:36,080 --> 00:53:41,759 Speaker 1: study and implement essentially mind control technique, special interrogation techniques 962 00:53:41,800 --> 00:53:45,040 Speaker 1: that they thought might lead to true mind control. And 963 00:53:45,080 --> 00:53:48,800 Speaker 1: these techniques included the administration of drugs such as morphine 964 00:53:48,800 --> 00:53:54,160 Speaker 1: and LSD, things like forced isolation and lily that's what 965 00:53:54,280 --> 00:53:56,560 Speaker 1: we saw the birth of the isolation tech exactly. But 966 00:53:56,640 --> 00:54:01,080 Speaker 1: then hypnosis and these usually it all get wrapped up 967 00:54:01,160 --> 00:54:04,800 Speaker 1: under one single kryptonym, which is a you know, secret 968 00:54:04,800 --> 00:54:07,239 Speaker 1: code name UH in documents at the time, and these 969 00:54:07,320 --> 00:54:12,359 Speaker 1: kryptonyms were first Bluebird, and then Project Artichoke, and then 970 00:54:12,400 --> 00:54:14,440 Speaker 1: the one we all know m k Ultra, which is 971 00:54:14,480 --> 00:54:16,920 Speaker 1: what it all eventually became, and that's the one that resonates. 972 00:54:16,960 --> 00:54:20,799 Speaker 1: It sounds far more evil than than Operation Artichoke. Yeah, 973 00:54:20,800 --> 00:54:23,399 Speaker 1: so we certainly don't know what happened in all these 974 00:54:23,440 --> 00:54:27,840 Speaker 1: experiments or all these operations, but we have some declassified documents, 975 00:54:27,920 --> 00:54:30,240 Speaker 1: and based on the ones I've looked at, the results 976 00:54:30,280 --> 00:54:33,240 Speaker 1: based on these techniques appear to me to be underwhelming. 977 00:54:33,560 --> 00:54:36,960 Speaker 1: I want to look at one declassified ci A memo 978 00:54:37,080 --> 00:54:41,799 Speaker 1: from January nineteen fifty four about the possibility of hypnotized 979 00:54:41,840 --> 00:54:47,080 Speaker 1: assassination under artichoke. So this memo released an internal memo 980 00:54:47,120 --> 00:54:50,520 Speaker 1: from the CIA, and it reveals plans to use quote artichoke, 981 00:54:50,640 --> 00:54:54,279 Speaker 1: which artichoke appears throughout the document in all caps. It's 982 00:54:54,320 --> 00:54:59,720 Speaker 1: pretty funny, almost as if to like like take the 983 00:54:59,719 --> 00:55:03,040 Speaker 1: the an out of the article. It's the euphemism. It's 984 00:55:03,120 --> 00:55:06,600 Speaker 1: the packet of aspirin is always at one's elbow operation, 985 00:55:06,920 --> 00:55:10,600 Speaker 1: you know, cuttle bear or something, Yeah, instead of drug 986 00:55:10,600 --> 00:55:14,839 Speaker 1: induced hypnosis and torture. But yeah, so they they had 987 00:55:14,880 --> 00:55:18,480 Speaker 1: plans in this document to use artichoke to gain mind 988 00:55:18,560 --> 00:55:23,200 Speaker 1: control over an unnamed foreign operative who had stopped cooperating 989 00:55:23,200 --> 00:55:27,759 Speaker 1: with the agents and to turn him into a hypnotized assassin, 990 00:55:28,080 --> 00:55:31,719 Speaker 1: much like the Manchurion candidate. Uh. And so I just 991 00:55:31,760 --> 00:55:34,120 Speaker 1: want to read a quote, they say, quote. Because the 992 00:55:34,120 --> 00:55:36,839 Speaker 1: subject is a heavy drinker, it was proposed that the 993 00:55:36,880 --> 00:55:40,400 Speaker 1: individual could be surreptitiously drugged through the medium of an 994 00:55:40,400 --> 00:55:44,960 Speaker 1: alcoholic cocktail at a social party, artichoke applied, and the 995 00:55:45,000 --> 00:55:48,920 Speaker 1: subject induced to perform the act of attempted assassination at 996 00:55:49,000 --> 00:55:52,040 Speaker 1: some later date. And so this would seem to be 997 00:55:52,160 --> 00:55:54,319 Speaker 1: kind of like the Manchurian candidate. It would be this 998 00:55:54,400 --> 00:55:59,080 Speaker 1: post hypnotic suggestion. Could we hypnotize somebody and then put 999 00:55:59,120 --> 00:56:01,799 Speaker 1: an idea in the head that would later lead to 1000 00:56:01,880 --> 00:56:05,120 Speaker 1: them carrying out instructions, you know, to do our bidding. 1001 00:56:06,400 --> 00:56:08,640 Speaker 1: And the author of the document, I think, seems to 1002 00:56:08,640 --> 00:56:12,080 Speaker 1: be hedging very strongly on whether this would work and 1003 00:56:12,200 --> 00:56:15,880 Speaker 1: ultimately concludes the answer is probably no, giving several reasons. 1004 00:56:15,920 --> 00:56:19,200 Speaker 1: For example, the subject would be unwilling and thus the 1005 00:56:19,200 --> 00:56:22,840 Speaker 1: assassination would have to be involuntary. They site, this is 1006 00:56:22,880 --> 00:56:25,520 Speaker 1: a major problem, kind of making you think that, Okay, 1007 00:56:25,600 --> 00:56:27,960 Speaker 1: so maybe it's not so much mind control after all. 1008 00:56:28,040 --> 00:56:31,239 Speaker 1: If a major problem is that the subject is unwilling. Yeah, 1009 00:56:31,280 --> 00:56:33,680 Speaker 1: I mean, and that's one of the staples of hypnotism 1010 00:56:33,760 --> 00:56:35,960 Speaker 1: is you can't make someone go against their will with 1011 00:56:36,000 --> 00:56:39,239 Speaker 1: this exactly right, And they will always tell you hypnotists 1012 00:56:39,239 --> 00:56:42,880 Speaker 1: insists that you can't hypnotize somebody if they're not willing 1013 00:56:42,920 --> 00:56:46,840 Speaker 1: to be hypnotized. You have to play along in the beginning, Um, 1014 00:56:46,880 --> 00:56:50,240 Speaker 1: but they give another thing, quote access to the subject 1015 00:56:50,239 --> 00:56:53,279 Speaker 1: would only happen at this social party among a mixed 1016 00:56:53,320 --> 00:56:56,360 Speaker 1: group of cleared and uncleared personnel. And then finally, to me, 1017 00:56:56,480 --> 00:56:59,160 Speaker 1: this one's really interesting. They say, quote, we would have 1018 00:56:59,280 --> 00:57:02,960 Speaker 1: none or at most very limited physical control and custody 1019 00:57:03,040 --> 00:57:06,319 Speaker 1: over the subject. And to me, this sounds like they're 1020 00:57:06,320 --> 00:57:08,440 Speaker 1: just complaining about the fact that if they go to 1021 00:57:08,480 --> 00:57:10,920 Speaker 1: this cocktail party, they're not going to be able to 1022 00:57:10,960 --> 00:57:14,759 Speaker 1: get this guy alone and coerced very much to hypnotize them. 1023 00:57:14,800 --> 00:57:17,720 Speaker 1: But I was reading a blog post about this document 1024 00:57:17,760 --> 00:57:20,520 Speaker 1: over at the National Security Archive blog, which deals with 1025 00:57:20,560 --> 00:57:24,080 Speaker 1: these kinds of release materials, and the writer of this post, 1026 00:57:24,240 --> 00:57:27,760 Speaker 1: Nate Jones, interprets the sentence to mean that the hypnosis 1027 00:57:27,800 --> 00:57:32,280 Speaker 1: itself offered no or at most very limited physical control 1028 00:57:32,360 --> 00:57:35,000 Speaker 1: over the custody of the subject, and looking at it again, 1029 00:57:35,040 --> 00:57:37,480 Speaker 1: I think it can be read that way. In other words, 1030 00:57:37,560 --> 00:57:41,600 Speaker 1: the technique is not very potent, and so it's not 1031 00:57:41,640 --> 00:57:44,120 Speaker 1: clear to me which interpretation of that statement is the 1032 00:57:44,160 --> 00:57:46,800 Speaker 1: correct one. But I thought that was interesting. It could 1033 00:57:46,880 --> 00:57:49,200 Speaker 1: just be that, you know, no matter how much you 1034 00:57:49,280 --> 00:57:51,800 Speaker 1: hypnotize somebody, even if you drug them first, you're not 1035 00:57:51,840 --> 00:57:55,560 Speaker 1: gonna have that much physical control over them. But this 1036 00:57:55,600 --> 00:57:58,440 Speaker 1: makes me think that, at least according to these intelligence 1037 00:57:58,480 --> 00:58:02,800 Speaker 1: officers own estimation of their hours, you can't really use drugs, 1038 00:58:03,080 --> 00:58:07,320 Speaker 1: psychological harassment and hypnosis to make somebody do something drastic 1039 00:58:07,440 --> 00:58:10,760 Speaker 1: like assassination if they're fully opposed to do it, if 1040 00:58:10,800 --> 00:58:13,080 Speaker 1: it is not their will to do it, Yeah, they've 1041 00:58:13,080 --> 00:58:15,760 Speaker 1: got to already be on board with with it. They are, 1042 00:58:15,880 --> 00:58:18,040 Speaker 1: They already have to be up for whatever. Yeah. And 1043 00:58:18,480 --> 00:58:21,600 Speaker 1: that does sort of affirm the consequent though, which is 1044 00:58:21,640 --> 00:58:24,440 Speaker 1: that if the conditions are just right, For example, if 1045 00:58:24,440 --> 00:58:28,040 Speaker 1: the subject already sort of wants to commit this assassination 1046 00:58:28,080 --> 00:58:30,360 Speaker 1: that you're trying to get them to do, I wonder 1047 00:58:30,400 --> 00:58:33,440 Speaker 1: if hypnosis could help push them over the edge into 1048 00:58:33,480 --> 00:58:37,760 Speaker 1: doing it. And so I think that's a possibility. Reading 1049 00:58:37,760 --> 00:58:39,840 Speaker 1: this document, it does not sound to me like these 1050 00:58:39,840 --> 00:58:43,040 Speaker 1: Intel operators were very confident in their ability to achieve 1051 00:58:43,080 --> 00:58:47,760 Speaker 1: effective mind control via artichoke, which included hypnosis. Now, I 1052 00:58:47,760 --> 00:58:50,200 Speaker 1: do want to point out that the declassified documents did 1053 00:58:50,240 --> 00:58:53,440 Speaker 1: not look into the use of just really good artichoke 1054 00:58:53,560 --> 00:58:58,480 Speaker 1: dip oh as a as a way to manipulate potential assassins. 1055 00:58:58,520 --> 00:59:02,520 Speaker 1: My wife, Rachel's mom makes amazing artichoke dip. Who do 1056 00:59:02,560 --> 00:59:05,520 Speaker 1: you know who makes really good artist choke dip? I 1057 00:59:05,560 --> 00:59:08,880 Speaker 1: feel like everybody's got somebody in their social circle, right, Um, well, 1058 00:59:08,880 --> 00:59:11,160 Speaker 1: my wife makes a has a recipe for a pretty 1059 00:59:11,160 --> 00:59:14,040 Speaker 1: good one. Yeah, And I feel like this is horrible, 1060 00:59:14,080 --> 00:59:17,200 Speaker 1: but I have memories. These are memories that have probably 1061 00:59:17,240 --> 00:59:21,280 Speaker 1: been warped, but I remember like some horrible chain restaurant 1062 00:59:21,320 --> 00:59:23,960 Speaker 1: is having like really good artichoke dip at some point. 1063 00:59:24,080 --> 00:59:26,200 Speaker 1: I can't remember which one it was, but it was 1064 00:59:26,240 --> 00:59:28,120 Speaker 1: like it was served in a bread bowl and then 1065 00:59:28,160 --> 00:59:31,960 Speaker 1: you eat the bowl. Oh yeah, oh bread bowls. They 1066 00:59:32,000 --> 00:59:34,120 Speaker 1: need to bring that back. Ye let's you know, you 1067 00:59:34,120 --> 00:59:35,840 Speaker 1: don't have to watch the bowl, you just eat the bowl. 1068 00:59:35,920 --> 00:59:38,280 Speaker 1: I think more things should be in bread bowls. Yeah, yeah, 1069 00:59:39,080 --> 00:59:43,360 Speaker 1: uh even bread. Where was the place where the artichoke 1070 00:59:43,400 --> 00:59:48,120 Speaker 1: dip was basically just artichokes in their alfredo sauce. Oh yeah, 1071 00:59:48,360 --> 00:59:51,080 Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't remember that one. But of 1072 00:59:51,120 --> 00:59:52,960 Speaker 1: course one of the things is artichokes on their own, 1073 00:59:52,960 --> 00:59:57,120 Speaker 1: like just steamed artichokes are dipped in better are wonderful? That? 1074 00:59:57,480 --> 01:00:00,400 Speaker 1: I highly agree with you. There. Yeah, okay, one more 1075 01:00:00,440 --> 01:00:04,200 Speaker 1: thing on the C I a assessment of interrogation this uh. 1076 01:00:04,240 --> 01:00:06,640 Speaker 1: There was also an article I looked at by a 1077 01:00:06,680 --> 01:00:09,840 Speaker 1: guy named a Sheer who Uh. This was a later 1078 01:00:09,920 --> 01:00:14,000 Speaker 1: document that was just evaluating the usefulness of hypnosis in 1079 01:00:14,040 --> 01:00:20,480 Speaker 1: an interrogation situation. And this guy essentially concluded that, um, 1080 01:00:20,520 --> 01:00:23,040 Speaker 1: it would be difficult to use hypnosis to get people 1081 01:00:23,080 --> 01:00:26,960 Speaker 1: to give up protected information and interrogation since hypnosis is 1082 01:00:27,000 --> 01:00:30,760 Speaker 1: almost impossible without a willing subject. But he did say 1083 01:00:30,800 --> 01:00:35,160 Speaker 1: that the hypnosis quote the hypnosis situation may be more 1084 01:00:35,280 --> 01:00:38,720 Speaker 1: useful than the hypnosis itself. And what does this mean? Well, 1085 01:00:38,960 --> 01:00:41,120 Speaker 1: I was thinking about it like this, what if you 1086 01:00:41,160 --> 01:00:44,960 Speaker 1: go back to the placebo effect? Right, Um, so you 1087 01:00:45,080 --> 01:00:49,000 Speaker 1: have a captured You've got somebody captured by American intel operatives. 1088 01:00:49,000 --> 01:00:52,000 Speaker 1: You're held prisoner along with a few other captives who 1089 01:00:52,080 --> 01:00:55,200 Speaker 1: are unknown to you working with your captors, and they 1090 01:00:55,240 --> 01:00:59,000 Speaker 1: tell you this tale about there's this master hypnotist interrogator 1091 01:00:59,320 --> 01:01:02,760 Speaker 1: who makes it possible to resist giving up information. And 1092 01:01:02,800 --> 01:01:05,160 Speaker 1: they all claim that they've been interrogated and they were 1093 01:01:05,160 --> 01:01:08,280 Speaker 1: powerless to keep secrets while under this guy's trance. And 1094 01:01:08,320 --> 01:01:12,280 Speaker 1: then the interrogator comes in and initiates this hypnosis scenario 1095 01:01:12,720 --> 01:01:16,160 Speaker 1: and interrogates the real captive. It might make you, you know, 1096 01:01:16,720 --> 01:01:20,280 Speaker 1: less likely to protect information simply by placebo. You expect 1097 01:01:20,360 --> 01:01:22,880 Speaker 1: to give it up, and you do. They present a 1098 01:01:23,000 --> 01:01:27,440 Speaker 1: narrative in which it is okay for you two share 1099 01:01:27,440 --> 01:01:30,280 Speaker 1: your secrets. Yeah, that's another thing. It's an excuse for you, 1100 01:01:30,440 --> 01:01:32,840 Speaker 1: like you don't have to feel so bad about betraying 1101 01:01:32,880 --> 01:01:35,920 Speaker 1: your you know, your your overlords. Yeah. I mean, look 1102 01:01:35,960 --> 01:01:37,960 Speaker 1: at this this hypnotist. They have a big scar on 1103 01:01:38,000 --> 01:01:40,640 Speaker 1: their face, and that we have all these blinky lights 1104 01:01:40,680 --> 01:01:43,840 Speaker 1: behind him. Clearly he really knows what he's doing. Uh, 1105 01:01:44,320 --> 01:01:46,840 Speaker 1: you're gonna crumble, Just go ahead and let it out. 1106 01:01:46,880 --> 01:01:49,360 Speaker 1: It's all fine. Tell us the codes. Yeah. So I'd 1107 01:01:49,360 --> 01:01:51,920 Speaker 1: say conclusion, from looking at some of the CIA and 1108 01:01:51,960 --> 01:01:54,080 Speaker 1: INTEL stuff, it seems to suggest to me that there 1109 01:01:54,120 --> 01:01:58,040 Speaker 1: are serious limits to the power of coercive hypnosis. Even 1110 01:01:58,080 --> 01:02:01,120 Speaker 1: for suggestible people, they tends to be a sort of 1111 01:02:01,400 --> 01:02:04,840 Speaker 1: like a willpower limit lock that prevents them from doing 1112 01:02:04,880 --> 01:02:08,720 Speaker 1: things that are egregiously against their will. Added to the 1113 01:02:08,720 --> 01:02:12,080 Speaker 1: fact that it's nearly impossible to hypnotize an unwilling person. 1114 01:02:12,600 --> 01:02:16,840 Speaker 1: But okay, let's ignore all these problems and say somebody 1115 01:02:16,920 --> 01:02:21,200 Speaker 1: is successfully hypnotizing you against your will to suggest they're 1116 01:02:21,200 --> 01:02:24,280 Speaker 1: taking control of your body and your mind full on 1117 01:02:24,480 --> 01:02:28,040 Speaker 1: mind management type terminology. You know that they've got you 1118 01:02:28,640 --> 01:02:32,120 Speaker 1: a real time control of you, and you are highly 1119 01:02:32,120 --> 01:02:36,520 Speaker 1: susceptible to hypnotic suggestion. What would it feel like? Well, 1120 01:02:36,560 --> 01:02:38,080 Speaker 1: you would think there would be really no way to 1121 01:02:38,120 --> 01:02:41,240 Speaker 1: answer this question, but I came across a really interesting 1122 01:02:41,360 --> 01:02:44,480 Speaker 1: article that sort of does provide an answer. So there 1123 01:02:44,560 --> 01:02:49,120 Speaker 1: was a July story for BBC Future reported by a 1124 01:02:49,160 --> 01:02:54,440 Speaker 1: guy named David Robson, and in this story, Robson's he's 1125 01:02:54,480 --> 01:02:58,560 Speaker 1: gonna later in the story be hypnotized to to undergo 1126 01:02:58,880 --> 01:03:02,600 Speaker 1: the sensation of my control. But he's speaking to this 1127 01:03:02,640 --> 01:03:06,120 Speaker 1: guy named Aimon Walsh, who was a psychologist in a 1128 01:03:06,160 --> 01:03:09,880 Speaker 1: Great Britain who uses hypnosis to investigate psychosis. At the 1129 01:03:09,960 --> 01:03:14,800 Speaker 1: Institute of Psychiatry in London, and Walsh wants to create 1130 01:03:14,960 --> 01:03:18,600 Speaker 1: what are known as virtual patients through hypnosis. I thought 1131 01:03:18,640 --> 01:03:23,160 Speaker 1: this idea was interesting to Essentially, he wants to temporarily 1132 01:03:23,320 --> 01:03:29,720 Speaker 1: induce delusions and psychosis in otherwise healthy patients through hypnosis, 1133 01:03:29,800 --> 01:03:33,160 Speaker 1: so that the disorders can be better studied and understood 1134 01:03:33,360 --> 01:03:36,960 Speaker 1: in a situation where a person is not actually permanently 1135 01:03:37,440 --> 01:03:40,000 Speaker 1: suffering from them. This doesn't sound like a plot for 1136 01:03:40,120 --> 01:03:45,520 Speaker 1: harvar uh. So Robson took a test, he says, for 1137 01:03:45,640 --> 01:03:49,200 Speaker 1: hypnotic suggestibility, and of course, as I mentioned, I think 1138 01:03:49,200 --> 01:03:52,000 Speaker 1: I mentioned this earlier, but generally these tests they put 1139 01:03:52,040 --> 01:03:54,520 Speaker 1: you in a relaxed or hypnotized state and then see 1140 01:03:54,600 --> 01:03:58,400 Speaker 1: how well you conformed to suggestions of perceptions by the hypnotist. 1141 01:03:58,760 --> 01:04:00,840 Speaker 1: You're holding a heavy way it in your hand or 1142 01:04:00,880 --> 01:04:02,920 Speaker 1: something like that, and does their hands sync when you 1143 01:04:03,000 --> 01:04:06,560 Speaker 1: tell them that? And Robson claims he scored very high. 1144 01:04:06,600 --> 01:04:08,640 Speaker 1: He was in the top ten percent of the population 1145 01:04:08,680 --> 01:04:12,959 Speaker 1: for hypnotic suggestibility. So he's one of these people who 1146 01:04:13,120 --> 01:04:16,640 Speaker 1: is liable to be mind controlled. Now, there's been plenty 1147 01:04:16,680 --> 01:04:20,040 Speaker 1: of research into whether hypnotism could help patients in dealing 1148 01:04:20,080 --> 01:04:23,040 Speaker 1: with all kinds of things like pain and stress. Uh, 1149 01:04:23,080 --> 01:04:26,280 Speaker 1: some positive results, but I wouldn't be fully convinced yet. 1150 01:04:26,680 --> 01:04:29,520 Speaker 1: But there have been some positive results about whether you 1151 01:04:29,600 --> 01:04:35,840 Speaker 1: can induced delusions and psychosis in otherwise healthy patients through hypnosis, 1152 01:04:35,920 --> 01:04:41,080 Speaker 1: and and to what extent these induced delusions mirror real delusions, 1153 01:04:41,720 --> 01:04:44,360 Speaker 1: and the results seem to be that they do mirror them. 1154 01:04:44,400 --> 01:04:47,080 Speaker 1: For example, there was one study published in The Lancet 1155 01:04:47,120 --> 01:04:50,920 Speaker 1: in two thousand that looked at PET scans of a 1156 01:04:50,960 --> 01:04:54,040 Speaker 1: person who had a true case of what's known as 1157 01:04:54,120 --> 01:04:57,960 Speaker 1: hysterical paralysis, which is a neurological condition where you have 1158 01:04:58,040 --> 01:05:01,000 Speaker 1: the feeling that you can't move a specific part of 1159 01:05:01,040 --> 01:05:04,000 Speaker 1: your body despite having no physical disability to prevent it. 1160 01:05:04,040 --> 01:05:06,560 Speaker 1: So like I can't move my leg even though there's 1161 01:05:06,600 --> 01:05:09,080 Speaker 1: nothing wrong with you. So there was a man who 1162 01:05:09,080 --> 01:05:11,760 Speaker 1: couldn't move his left leg due to this condition, and 1163 01:05:11,800 --> 01:05:15,160 Speaker 1: then there's another person who is told he couldn't move 1164 01:05:15,200 --> 01:05:18,640 Speaker 1: his left leg under hypnosis. And according to the researchers, 1165 01:05:18,680 --> 01:05:22,720 Speaker 1: these subjects pet scans matched enough that they were saying, Okay, 1166 01:05:22,760 --> 01:05:26,280 Speaker 1: it looks like the hypnotic suggestion of this delusion to 1167 01:05:26,400 --> 01:05:30,840 Speaker 1: some extent mirrors the real psychological paralysis. He's not just pretending. 1168 01:05:31,400 --> 01:05:34,560 Speaker 1: So since then, psychologists have been using hypnosis to try 1169 01:05:34,560 --> 01:05:39,120 Speaker 1: to produce uh, something like these virtual patients, which which 1170 01:05:39,200 --> 01:05:43,120 Speaker 1: they claim are having genuine experiences of delusions like cap 1171 01:05:43,160 --> 01:05:46,160 Speaker 1: Graw delusion, which is I think we've discussed that before, 1172 01:05:46,200 --> 01:05:50,280 Speaker 1: but it's this impostor syndrome media. You believe that people 1173 01:05:50,320 --> 01:05:53,480 Speaker 1: you know have been replaced by doppelgangers or impostors who 1174 01:05:53,520 --> 01:05:56,320 Speaker 1: are walking around in their skin. Yeah. And there there's 1175 01:05:56,360 --> 01:06:00,640 Speaker 1: like a whole suite of different related conditions that involve 1176 01:06:00,800 --> 01:06:05,240 Speaker 1: fake people or double people or double gang ors, etcetera. Right, 1177 01:06:05,280 --> 01:06:08,000 Speaker 1: So the idea here is a hypnotist to the right 1178 01:06:08,040 --> 01:06:11,640 Speaker 1: person with a high level of suggestibility can temporarily give 1179 01:06:11,720 --> 01:06:17,120 Speaker 1: you this delusion that is that that's that's scary. Yeah, 1180 01:06:17,200 --> 01:06:20,160 Speaker 1: And to be fair, this is what they claim. I mean, 1181 01:06:20,600 --> 01:06:23,320 Speaker 1: who knows, uh exactly to what extent this is true, 1182 01:06:23,320 --> 01:06:26,400 Speaker 1: but this is what these researchers claim. And they also 1183 01:06:26,440 --> 01:06:30,120 Speaker 1: claimed they've been able to achieve things like a mirror misidentification, 1184 01:06:30,240 --> 01:06:33,080 Speaker 1: so you don't recognize yourself in a mirror if you're 1185 01:06:33,080 --> 01:06:36,480 Speaker 1: told not to under hypnosis. And while they claim that 1186 01:06:36,520 --> 01:06:40,280 Speaker 1: these delusions are truly believed. Afterwards, after they're brought out 1187 01:06:40,320 --> 01:06:45,440 Speaker 1: of hypnosis, the delusion completely vanishes. Uh. The subject is healthy, unharmed. 1188 01:06:45,520 --> 01:06:48,680 Speaker 1: They go about their normal life, uh, and everything's the same. 1189 01:06:49,720 --> 01:06:52,160 Speaker 1: And of course they say that this, Uh, this gives 1190 01:06:52,200 --> 01:06:54,800 Speaker 1: them an advantage in treating mental illness because they can 1191 01:06:54,840 --> 01:06:58,040 Speaker 1: alter conditions to better understand the nature of the delusion, 1192 01:06:58,120 --> 01:07:00,680 Speaker 1: and they can test treatments on a healthy patient without 1193 01:07:00,760 --> 01:07:03,160 Speaker 1: having to risk them on someone who has a real 1194 01:07:03,240 --> 01:07:07,160 Speaker 1: mental illness. UM. And another thing that's worth noting is 1195 01:07:07,200 --> 01:07:10,280 Speaker 1: this might work better for some conditions than others, right, 1196 01:07:10,960 --> 01:07:13,120 Speaker 1: Uh like that they speak to one researcher in the 1197 01:07:13,200 --> 01:07:16,720 Speaker 1: article there, the reporter talks to somebody who's somewhat critical, 1198 01:07:16,760 --> 01:07:19,280 Speaker 1: who thinks it may work more on things like hysterical 1199 01:07:19,320 --> 01:07:22,360 Speaker 1: paralysis where I can't move my leg um, but not 1200 01:07:22,400 --> 01:07:25,720 Speaker 1: for something like schizophrenia. Right. You're you're ultimately dealing with 1201 01:07:25,880 --> 01:07:31,760 Speaker 1: very very simple delusions. Like I was just like, as 1202 01:07:31,800 --> 01:07:33,680 Speaker 1: you were talking about this, I was trying to imagine 1203 01:07:33,960 --> 01:07:36,480 Speaker 1: the scenario of not being able to move my leg 1204 01:07:37,000 --> 01:07:39,560 Speaker 1: and I can easily. I can, I can almost without 1205 01:07:39,600 --> 01:07:42,600 Speaker 1: any hypnotist hypnotism and involved at all. I can kind 1206 01:07:42,600 --> 01:07:46,240 Speaker 1: of put myself in that situation, like sitting here not 1207 01:07:46,360 --> 01:07:50,240 Speaker 1: moving my left leg, and then asking myself, can I 1208 01:07:50,280 --> 01:07:52,440 Speaker 1: move my left leg? I'm not moving it now. I'm 1209 01:07:52,480 --> 01:07:55,320 Speaker 1: not moving it now, So I can I can imagine that. 1210 01:07:55,400 --> 01:07:59,080 Speaker 1: I can certainly imagine. I know from looking in a mirror. 1211 01:07:59,680 --> 01:08:01,520 Speaker 1: It's not that difficult to look in the mirror and 1212 01:08:01,520 --> 01:08:05,240 Speaker 1: start convincing yourself that that's not you, because for one hand, 1213 01:08:05,560 --> 01:08:07,480 Speaker 1: on one hand, it's not you. It's a reversal of 1214 01:08:07,600 --> 01:08:13,200 Speaker 1: you thanks to the wonders of of optical reflection. But 1215 01:08:13,200 --> 01:08:16,040 Speaker 1: but these are far these are not like drastically different 1216 01:08:16,080 --> 01:08:19,800 Speaker 1: mind states this, And it's not the the hearing of 1217 01:08:19,840 --> 01:08:25,360 Speaker 1: auditory hallucinations or the outright glimpsing of of of visual hallucinations. Yeah, 1218 01:08:25,360 --> 01:08:28,280 Speaker 1: and that's an interesting thing to think about. Two. Um So, 1219 01:08:28,479 --> 01:08:32,800 Speaker 1: if you are having a delusion that is merely like 1220 01:08:32,840 --> 01:08:36,760 Speaker 1: a denial of reality, that's one thing. I think it's 1221 01:08:36,800 --> 01:08:39,080 Speaker 1: got to be somehow fundamentally different if you have a 1222 01:08:39,120 --> 01:08:42,320 Speaker 1: delusion that has content, Yeah, if you know what I mean, Like, 1223 01:08:42,560 --> 01:08:44,880 Speaker 1: something's got to fill in the blank. If you're hearing 1224 01:08:45,000 --> 01:08:47,679 Speaker 1: voices or something like that. Like, it's the difference between 1225 01:08:47,720 --> 01:08:52,160 Speaker 1: me saying with hypnosis saying, Joe, everyone in your life 1226 01:08:52,160 --> 01:08:55,600 Speaker 1: basically looks the same. It's basically the same person. All right, 1227 01:08:55,680 --> 01:08:58,400 Speaker 1: that's kind of subjective and all. But if I were 1228 01:08:58,439 --> 01:09:01,400 Speaker 1: to say, Joe, there is a demon knitting in the 1229 01:09:01,439 --> 01:09:04,680 Speaker 1: corner of the podcast room right now, look at it, 1230 01:09:04,760 --> 01:09:10,280 Speaker 1: behold it and knitting crocheting, Yeah, it's a totally different 1231 01:09:10,520 --> 01:09:15,479 Speaker 1: situation and and just a far greater stretch for the 1232 01:09:15,720 --> 01:09:18,599 Speaker 1: for a mind to reach that delusion. Right. But then 1233 01:09:18,760 --> 01:09:23,360 Speaker 1: so Robeson goes in for a procedure that does generate content, 1234 01:09:23,560 --> 01:09:26,160 Speaker 1: and this is the interesting part. So he submits to 1235 01:09:27,000 --> 01:09:30,240 Speaker 1: this type of mind control experiment where he's put in 1236 01:09:30,280 --> 01:09:33,160 Speaker 1: a fake brain scanner and he's guided into a hypnotic 1237 01:09:33,320 --> 01:09:36,439 Speaker 1: state by this guy Walsh, and he's given a prompt. 1238 01:09:36,800 --> 01:09:41,560 Speaker 1: The prompt says, the prompt is about this this imaginary 1239 01:09:41,680 --> 01:09:44,880 Speaker 1: engineer who's introduced in the hypnotic state, and the prompt says, 1240 01:09:45,160 --> 01:09:48,280 Speaker 1: the engineer has developed a way of taking control of 1241 01:09:48,320 --> 01:09:51,960 Speaker 1: your thoughts from the inside. He does this because he's 1242 01:09:52,000 --> 01:09:55,559 Speaker 1: fascinated by mind control and wants to apply the most 1243 01:09:55,640 --> 01:09:59,160 Speaker 1: direct method of controlling your thoughts. He's doing this to 1244 01:09:59,240 --> 01:10:02,800 Speaker 1: advance his search into mind control. You will soon be 1245 01:10:02,840 --> 01:10:07,840 Speaker 1: aware of the engineer inserting his thoughts. So uh so, 1246 01:10:08,000 --> 01:10:10,360 Speaker 1: Robson says, he's got a pin in his hand, and 1247 01:10:10,400 --> 01:10:12,599 Speaker 1: he's got a sheet of paper on his lap, and 1248 01:10:12,680 --> 01:10:16,439 Speaker 1: he's supposed to uh hear a word and then finish 1249 01:10:16,560 --> 01:10:21,439 Speaker 1: the sentence under some different scenarios. So one is the 1250 01:10:21,479 --> 01:10:24,640 Speaker 1: scenario where the hypnotist tells him that the engineer in 1251 01:10:24,680 --> 01:10:28,760 Speaker 1: this prompt is whispering the words to write directly into 1252 01:10:28,800 --> 01:10:31,400 Speaker 1: his brain. So he's having the words supplied to him. 1253 01:10:31,920 --> 01:10:35,800 Speaker 1: And then he's told to imagine that the engineer is 1254 01:10:35,840 --> 01:10:38,680 Speaker 1: able to direct the movements of his hand. So this 1255 01:10:38,760 --> 01:10:41,880 Speaker 1: is more like the you know the n M F right, 1256 01:10:42,000 --> 01:10:44,880 Speaker 1: the one where you are a passenger, your consciousness is 1257 01:10:44,920 --> 01:10:48,799 Speaker 1: a passenger, and something else's controlling your body and then finally, 1258 01:10:49,320 --> 01:10:51,520 Speaker 1: uh sort of both at the same time, the engineer 1259 01:10:51,560 --> 01:10:55,639 Speaker 1: is in complete control of both your thoughts and your movements. Yeah, 1260 01:10:55,720 --> 01:10:58,360 Speaker 1: that's total you enough right there. And so just to 1261 01:10:58,400 --> 01:11:02,200 Speaker 1: describe what this scenario like, I'm gonna quote from Robson. 1262 01:11:02,200 --> 01:11:06,000 Speaker 1: He says, quote, the first scenario only had minimal effect. 1263 01:11:06,160 --> 01:11:07,880 Speaker 1: I seem to have to wait a little before the 1264 01:11:07,920 --> 01:11:11,080 Speaker 1: words come suddenly as if from nowhere, but it doesn't 1265 01:11:11,080 --> 01:11:14,280 Speaker 1: feel so different to my normally sporadic mind. But when 1266 01:11:14,280 --> 01:11:17,200 Speaker 1: Walsh instead tells me the engineer has now taken over 1267 01:11:17,240 --> 01:11:20,800 Speaker 1: my movements, it's much more noticeable. My hand seems to 1268 01:11:20,840 --> 01:11:23,840 Speaker 1: move in a jerky, mechanical fashion, and it feels like 1269 01:11:23,880 --> 01:11:26,840 Speaker 1: my fingers are dancing to their own tune. It is 1270 01:11:26,880 --> 01:11:29,160 Speaker 1: then that I also begin to get flashes of the 1271 01:11:29,200 --> 01:11:32,280 Speaker 1: engineer himself, who I picture as a hunched man with 1272 01:11:32,320 --> 01:11:36,280 Speaker 1: a wide grin and a long gray ponytail. It gives 1273 01:11:36,320 --> 01:11:40,719 Speaker 1: the mind control man a ponytail. Yeah, I was picturing 1274 01:11:40,800 --> 01:11:43,280 Speaker 1: something more, you know, like one of the characters in 1275 01:11:43,360 --> 01:11:46,160 Speaker 1: Dark City or something. Oh yeah, that'd be great. Mr Book, 1276 01:11:46,600 --> 01:11:49,400 Speaker 1: Mr Book standing in the corner. But then Robinson continues. 1277 01:11:49,680 --> 01:11:52,280 Speaker 1: By the time we reached the third set of suggestions, 1278 01:11:52,320 --> 01:11:54,759 Speaker 1: where Walsh tells me that the engineer will now control 1279 01:11:54,840 --> 01:11:58,439 Speaker 1: my hand movements and my thoughts, the Engineer's power over 1280 01:11:58,520 --> 01:12:02,439 Speaker 1: me becomes much more vivid. My writing becomes faster and 1281 01:12:02,479 --> 01:12:04,960 Speaker 1: more intense, and I get the distinct feeling that I'm 1282 01:12:05,040 --> 01:12:08,960 Speaker 1: watching myself from the outside. At points, it feels like 1283 01:12:09,000 --> 01:12:12,439 Speaker 1: I can almost hear the engineer directing his thought control machine. 1284 01:12:12,840 --> 01:12:15,360 Speaker 1: It's only when Walsh in's the session and counts back 1285 01:12:15,439 --> 01:12:18,280 Speaker 1: up to twenty that I fully realize how strange the 1286 01:12:18,320 --> 01:12:22,080 Speaker 1: sensation was, a little more like the moment of lucidity 1287 01:12:22,240 --> 01:12:25,720 Speaker 1: once you have once you awake from a fever dream. 1288 01:12:26,120 --> 01:12:28,920 Speaker 1: So it's an interesting article. I'd recommend going going to 1289 01:12:29,000 --> 01:12:32,839 Speaker 1: check it out on the BBC Future website. But anyway, 1290 01:12:33,200 --> 01:12:35,160 Speaker 1: you know, Walsh says, this is pretty much in keeping 1291 01:12:35,200 --> 01:12:40,760 Speaker 1: with what other subjects have have reported, and I think 1292 01:12:40,800 --> 01:12:44,360 Speaker 1: that's interesting that that you can somewhat have this sensation 1293 01:12:44,439 --> 01:12:48,040 Speaker 1: of mind control even when there is when it's just 1294 01:12:48,120 --> 01:12:51,720 Speaker 1: the suggestion of mind control here right, Like he's not 1295 01:12:51,800 --> 01:12:57,479 Speaker 1: actually having his actions dictated from the outside, but he's 1296 01:12:57,800 --> 01:13:02,240 Speaker 1: being given the suggestion that his actions are being dictated 1297 01:13:02,320 --> 01:13:06,160 Speaker 1: from the outside, and in the hypnotic state, he does 1298 01:13:06,200 --> 01:13:11,120 Speaker 1: seem to feel this as true. Yeah, it's I guess 1299 01:13:11,160 --> 01:13:13,200 Speaker 1: the part that amazed me the most was just the 1300 01:13:13,360 --> 01:13:17,559 Speaker 1: seeing quote unquote seeing of the engineer, because everything else 1301 01:13:17,840 --> 01:13:21,040 Speaker 1: it's it's a cognition. I feel like it's sometimes it's 1302 01:13:21,080 --> 01:13:24,760 Speaker 1: like riding a bicycle, you know, and you're fine why 1303 01:13:24,800 --> 01:13:26,880 Speaker 1: you're doing it, But if you stop to really think 1304 01:13:26,920 --> 01:13:28,800 Speaker 1: about how am I, How am I doing this? How 1305 01:13:28,840 --> 01:13:32,519 Speaker 1: am I maintaining balance? Uh? And so forth, then you 1306 01:13:32,560 --> 01:13:36,800 Speaker 1: potentially run the risk of falling off, you know, and 1307 01:13:36,800 --> 01:13:38,960 Speaker 1: and so it's it's one thing to start thinking about 1308 01:13:39,000 --> 01:13:44,040 Speaker 1: cognition and thinking about your your mind and getting in 1309 01:13:44,360 --> 01:13:48,960 Speaker 1: either buying into different ideas about how it's working or 1310 01:13:49,439 --> 01:13:52,800 Speaker 1: or seeing it in a sort of tilted way, like 1311 01:13:53,000 --> 01:13:55,559 Speaker 1: if someone's telling you, oh, your your mind, your mind 1312 01:13:55,600 --> 01:13:57,920 Speaker 1: works this way. There's an angel on one shoulder and 1313 01:13:57,920 --> 01:13:59,559 Speaker 1: a demon on the other, and they're both telling you 1314 01:13:59,600 --> 01:14:02,599 Speaker 1: to do things Like someone tells you that, and you 1315 01:14:02,640 --> 01:14:05,360 Speaker 1: buy into it enough, Yeah, you can start interpreting your 1316 01:14:05,439 --> 01:14:08,800 Speaker 1: cognitive processes in the same way. But to actually see 1317 01:14:08,840 --> 01:14:12,040 Speaker 1: the demon or the angel like that's the that the 1318 01:14:12,240 --> 01:14:14,519 Speaker 1: that's the greater stretch. Well, that's one of the things 1319 01:14:14,560 --> 01:14:18,320 Speaker 1: that's interesting about cognition is there is no real I mean, 1320 01:14:18,360 --> 01:14:21,120 Speaker 1: there is really a physical brain, but I would say 1321 01:14:21,160 --> 01:14:26,360 Speaker 1: there is really no physical manifestation of cognition. There's brain activity, 1322 01:14:26,479 --> 01:14:28,519 Speaker 1: but when you're talking about the cognition, the you know, 1323 01:14:28,680 --> 01:14:32,799 Speaker 1: the intangible conscious state that's taking place in your mind, 1324 01:14:33,640 --> 01:14:36,880 Speaker 1: there's no physical embodiment of it. So it is necessarily 1325 01:14:36,960 --> 01:14:40,720 Speaker 1: described by metaphors, all the ways we have of envisioning it, 1326 01:14:40,760 --> 01:14:43,519 Speaker 1: our metaphors, they're all the angel and the demon to 1327 01:14:43,560 --> 01:14:45,920 Speaker 1: a various extent. Yeah, and when you start talking about 1328 01:14:45,920 --> 01:14:48,000 Speaker 1: altered states of consciousness, I mean, you can get an 1329 01:14:48,000 --> 01:14:50,840 Speaker 1: altered state of consciousness by stubbing your toe on a 1330 01:14:50,880 --> 01:14:53,439 Speaker 1: coffee table if you want to, if you want to 1331 01:14:53,520 --> 01:14:56,360 Speaker 1: lend the interpretation to that. You know, it's like whatever 1332 01:14:56,520 --> 01:14:59,200 Speaker 1: changes the way you're thinking, in the way that your 1333 01:14:59,360 --> 01:15:02,880 Speaker 1: your mind working, right, right, So, anyway, I think this 1334 01:15:02,960 --> 01:15:06,360 Speaker 1: article is interesting because it does paint a picture. Now, 1335 01:15:06,479 --> 01:15:08,599 Speaker 1: we should, of course remind you that this is again, 1336 01:15:08,640 --> 01:15:10,880 Speaker 1: this is a firsthand report, and there's no reason to 1337 01:15:10,920 --> 01:15:13,400 Speaker 1: think Robson's lying about what he experienced. But at the 1338 01:15:13,400 --> 01:15:16,360 Speaker 1: same time, you know, it's we're just going on his 1339 01:15:16,439 --> 01:15:21,040 Speaker 1: firsthand claims. Um. But so there is this, uh, if 1340 01:15:21,040 --> 01:15:23,800 Speaker 1: we're to believe it, this sort of powerful experience you 1341 01:15:23,840 --> 01:15:26,920 Speaker 1: can have supplying some kind of content and feeling like 1342 01:15:27,360 --> 01:15:30,040 Speaker 1: you are having content supplied to your mind that is 1343 01:15:30,080 --> 01:15:33,320 Speaker 1: outside your control and directing your actions outside your control. 1344 01:15:33,640 --> 01:15:38,519 Speaker 1: And yet we have in real life the knowledge that, uh, 1345 01:15:38,600 --> 01:15:41,519 Speaker 1: it's really seems like people can't be hypnotized to do 1346 01:15:41,680 --> 01:15:44,720 Speaker 1: things that they really don't want to do. So where 1347 01:15:44,760 --> 01:15:47,479 Speaker 1: do these phenomenon meet in the middle? Uh. One thing 1348 01:15:47,520 --> 01:15:49,439 Speaker 1: I thought would be interesting to do is just look 1349 01:15:49,479 --> 01:15:53,559 Speaker 1: all over the internet at more firsthand reports about just 1350 01:15:53,640 --> 01:15:57,480 Speaker 1: what people say when when they're asked about what hypnosis 1351 01:15:57,520 --> 01:16:02,000 Speaker 1: feels like. And obviously it's all subjective reporting. Probably some 1352 01:16:02,040 --> 01:16:04,040 Speaker 1: people are making things up, but if you read enough 1353 01:16:04,080 --> 01:16:06,320 Speaker 1: of it, you sort of pick up on some patterns 1354 01:16:06,400 --> 01:16:10,560 Speaker 1: that are probably broadly representative of people's experiences of hypnosis. 1355 01:16:11,120 --> 01:16:12,880 Speaker 1: One thing that I think is worth saying is you 1356 01:16:12,880 --> 01:16:15,719 Speaker 1: do read plenty of people who do describe simply faking 1357 01:16:16,000 --> 01:16:17,920 Speaker 1: right that you know that I was going along with 1358 01:16:18,000 --> 01:16:22,040 Speaker 1: the hypnotists instructions just for fun or because of social pressure. 1359 01:16:22,800 --> 01:16:25,360 Speaker 1: And while I suspect this is often true, it occurs 1360 01:16:25,400 --> 01:16:28,360 Speaker 1: to me that it would be an especially effective form 1361 01:16:28,439 --> 01:16:32,559 Speaker 1: of mind control that made people perform suggested actions against 1362 01:16:32,560 --> 01:16:35,639 Speaker 1: their will and also convinced them that they were following 1363 01:16:35,680 --> 01:16:38,960 Speaker 1: instructions because it was fun or just because I felt 1364 01:16:39,000 --> 01:16:43,360 Speaker 1: like it. Anyway, that's interesting, especially when I I can't 1365 01:16:43,360 --> 01:16:45,679 Speaker 1: help but think. But in terms of let's saying exercise 1366 01:16:45,680 --> 01:16:49,519 Speaker 1: class of yoga class where you have or or meditation classes, 1367 01:16:49,520 --> 01:16:53,439 Speaker 1: but certainly exercise and yoga is a great example, because 1368 01:16:53,439 --> 01:16:56,840 Speaker 1: you have a person of some authority, at least in 1369 01:16:56,880 --> 01:17:00,280 Speaker 1: the classroom environment, that is instructing everyone, and we want 1370 01:17:00,280 --> 01:17:03,599 Speaker 1: to obeys those commands, right, but we we as part 1371 01:17:03,640 --> 01:17:06,000 Speaker 1: of the contract, though, we're there to obey those commands, 1372 01:17:06,000 --> 01:17:08,920 Speaker 1: and there's something liberating about losing yourself in the instruction 1373 01:17:09,040 --> 01:17:13,360 Speaker 1: of another another person exactly if it's a place of safety. Yeah, yeah, 1374 01:17:13,479 --> 01:17:15,680 Speaker 1: I totally see what you mean. There a few more 1375 01:17:15,720 --> 01:17:20,519 Speaker 1: things that are commonly reported extreme relaxation, narrowing of focus 1376 01:17:20,520 --> 01:17:23,400 Speaker 1: on the hypnotists voice. This can be described as becoming 1377 01:17:23,479 --> 01:17:26,280 Speaker 1: unaware of or at least uninterested in the rest of 1378 01:17:26,320 --> 01:17:28,479 Speaker 1: your surroundings. This seems to go along with what people 1379 01:17:28,520 --> 01:17:31,720 Speaker 1: suggest is the core of hypnosis. Anyway. One thing that 1380 01:17:31,760 --> 01:17:34,519 Speaker 1: I found is there's a big divide in reports about 1381 01:17:34,520 --> 01:17:38,479 Speaker 1: the level of continuity of consciousness throughout the experience. And 1382 01:17:38,520 --> 01:17:40,519 Speaker 1: what I mean by that is that some people report 1383 01:17:40,560 --> 01:17:42,719 Speaker 1: that they knew what was going on the entire time 1384 01:17:42,800 --> 01:17:47,160 Speaker 1: and could remember everything afterwards. Others report a subjective loss 1385 01:17:47,240 --> 01:17:50,840 Speaker 1: of consciousness or lack of memories for time under hypnosis, 1386 01:17:51,439 --> 01:17:53,920 Speaker 1: as if they went to sleep, and I'm all suspects 1387 01:17:54,000 --> 01:17:56,599 Speaker 1: that in many of the latter cases maybe the person 1388 01:17:56,720 --> 01:18:00,320 Speaker 1: actually was falling asleep or in some liminal state near sleep. 1389 01:18:00,479 --> 01:18:04,600 Speaker 1: I wonder about that, um, a lack of inhibition A 1390 01:18:04,600 --> 01:18:07,120 Speaker 1: lot of people seem to report because a lot of 1391 01:18:07,160 --> 01:18:10,360 Speaker 1: these these stories come from people who are hypnotized to 1392 01:18:10,439 --> 01:18:14,360 Speaker 1: these stage shows and stuff like that, that alcohol is involved, 1393 01:18:14,520 --> 01:18:18,519 Speaker 1: and alcohol seems to intensify the subjective depth of the trance. 1394 01:18:18,600 --> 01:18:22,200 Speaker 1: Not a big surprise, Um, what what about that? The 1395 01:18:22,320 --> 01:18:25,200 Speaker 1: idea of violating people's will making them do stuff they 1396 01:18:25,200 --> 01:18:28,360 Speaker 1: really don't want to do? Well, plenty of firsthand reports 1397 01:18:28,439 --> 01:18:32,519 Speaker 1: along these lines of the clinical reports that you know, 1398 01:18:32,640 --> 01:18:35,439 Speaker 1: so I was under hypnosis, told not to be able 1399 01:18:35,479 --> 01:18:37,919 Speaker 1: to say a word, and then I was truly unable 1400 01:18:38,000 --> 01:18:40,360 Speaker 1: to say it when I was prompted. So there's that. 1401 01:18:40,479 --> 01:18:42,799 Speaker 1: But then at the same time, plenty of other reports 1402 01:18:42,800 --> 01:18:45,599 Speaker 1: from people who insist that they could not be made 1403 01:18:45,640 --> 01:18:49,120 Speaker 1: to do anything they really didn't want to do, sometimes 1404 01:18:49,120 --> 01:18:53,920 Speaker 1: following many instructions until something very objectionable is to suggested. 1405 01:18:55,040 --> 01:18:58,240 Speaker 1: And finally, a common thing people report is feeling very 1406 01:18:58,360 --> 01:19:01,479 Speaker 1: rested after the hypnosis session, as if they'd just woken 1407 01:19:01,560 --> 01:19:04,719 Speaker 1: up from a nap. Yeah, they've had a very calming, 1408 01:19:04,960 --> 01:19:07,560 Speaker 1: relaxed experience. This is one of the reasons that that 1409 01:19:08,160 --> 01:19:11,360 Speaker 1: you see some you see the use of hypnosis and 1410 01:19:11,439 --> 01:19:17,120 Speaker 1: hypnotherapy and also hypnosurgery where it's UH whether you're using 1411 01:19:17,160 --> 01:19:19,479 Speaker 1: you're basically you're putting the body into a relaxed state, 1412 01:19:19,520 --> 01:19:22,240 Speaker 1: and a relaxed state of body and mind is UH 1413 01:19:23,120 --> 01:19:26,760 Speaker 1: is helpful when stay entering certain UH surgical or sort 1414 01:19:26,760 --> 01:19:30,959 Speaker 1: of semi surgical scenarios. I've heard of scenarios where individuals 1415 01:19:31,000 --> 01:19:35,240 Speaker 1: have undergone endoscopy, one in particular, where it was one 1416 01:19:35,280 --> 01:19:39,000 Speaker 1: of the endoscopy cameras going up the urethra and that 1417 01:19:39,240 --> 01:19:42,160 Speaker 1: you know, they weren't that they weren't they're having to 1418 01:19:42,200 --> 01:19:45,960 Speaker 1: have this done regularly enough that they couldn't undergo, you know, 1419 01:19:46,000 --> 01:19:49,240 Speaker 1: any kind of medication to to numb them out. So 1420 01:19:49,320 --> 01:19:53,519 Speaker 1: the individuals started using self hypnosis to reach that kind 1421 01:19:53,520 --> 01:19:57,640 Speaker 1: of relaxed state where they could undergo this UH, this 1422 01:19:57,760 --> 01:20:01,880 Speaker 1: procedure without you know, unduced rests, and you can sort 1423 01:20:01,880 --> 01:20:03,519 Speaker 1: of you could have interpret you can interpret that into 1424 01:20:03,560 --> 01:20:06,360 Speaker 1: different ways, right, you could go with a very hypnosis 1425 01:20:06,400 --> 01:20:09,920 Speaker 1: is magic interpretation and say well, this person felt no 1426 01:20:10,040 --> 01:20:12,479 Speaker 1: pain and no sensation, and we were able to sit 1427 01:20:12,560 --> 01:20:16,479 Speaker 1: there serenely like a like a Buddha while this procedure 1428 01:20:16,560 --> 01:20:20,400 Speaker 1: was conducted. Or you could simply say, well, instead of 1429 01:20:20,560 --> 01:20:24,240 Speaker 1: entering into this scenario in a highly agitated physical and 1430 01:20:24,280 --> 01:20:27,360 Speaker 1: mental state, they were able to calm themselves and calm 1431 01:20:27,400 --> 01:20:29,919 Speaker 1: their body, and of course the procedure went more smoothly, 1432 01:20:30,320 --> 01:20:33,639 Speaker 1: in the same way that it, you know, brushing my 1433 01:20:33,640 --> 01:20:36,200 Speaker 1: my kid's teeth goes. It goes more smoothly if he 1434 01:20:36,240 --> 01:20:38,720 Speaker 1: just sits there for once and doesn't move and I'm 1435 01:20:38,760 --> 01:20:42,360 Speaker 1: not having to wrestle him on the floor of the 1436 01:20:42,400 --> 01:20:45,640 Speaker 1: bathroom or or cutting a cutting a dog or or 1437 01:20:45,680 --> 01:20:49,559 Speaker 1: a cat's nails. Right, Oh yeah, if they're gonna fight, 1438 01:20:49,640 --> 01:20:53,479 Speaker 1: it's gonna be worse for everybody. But if they're but yeah, 1439 01:20:53,479 --> 01:20:58,479 Speaker 1: and they're gonna fight, you wish you could hypnotize your dog. Um, okay, Well, 1440 01:20:58,479 --> 01:21:00,520 Speaker 1: I think we should bring it back to the experience 1441 01:21:00,520 --> 01:21:03,280 Speaker 1: of the struggle of mind control to wrap this episode up. 1442 01:21:03,400 --> 01:21:06,000 Speaker 1: So one of the things I was thinking about is 1443 01:21:06,040 --> 01:21:08,719 Speaker 1: the movie scene. You know, mind controls in all kinds 1444 01:21:08,760 --> 01:21:12,080 Speaker 1: of movies, and all these mind control movies have the 1445 01:21:12,080 --> 01:21:16,400 Speaker 1: scene of the person struggling with a gun. The subject 1446 01:21:16,479 --> 01:21:19,360 Speaker 1: is all sweaty and groaning while they fight against these 1447 01:21:19,400 --> 01:21:22,679 Speaker 1: forces of external control. You know, the guns in your 1448 01:21:22,720 --> 01:21:25,760 Speaker 1: hand and you're struggling to point it away from the 1449 01:21:25,800 --> 01:21:29,200 Speaker 1: assassination target because you're not an assassin, you know, being 1450 01:21:29,200 --> 01:21:32,599 Speaker 1: controlled by the outside uh. And you know this mind 1451 01:21:32,600 --> 01:21:35,400 Speaker 1: flare equivalent is guiding you to try to carry out 1452 01:21:35,400 --> 01:21:37,800 Speaker 1: this killing. And it's if you're in a battle of 1453 01:21:37,840 --> 01:21:41,919 Speaker 1: physical strength, right with the set of invisible hands pushing 1454 01:21:41,960 --> 01:21:46,360 Speaker 1: you towards the mind flare's will, and then you you 1455 01:21:46,360 --> 01:21:49,880 Speaker 1: you're using your own muscles to push back. If it 1456 01:21:49,920 --> 01:21:53,080 Speaker 1: were possible to be you know, real time mind managed, 1457 01:21:53,200 --> 01:21:56,080 Speaker 1: fully mind controlled, and I don't really think that is 1458 01:21:56,120 --> 01:21:59,920 Speaker 1: possible given today's tools and techniques, I don't see it 1459 01:22:00,040 --> 01:22:03,679 Speaker 1: happening like that because there's no external force to strain 1460 01:22:03,760 --> 01:22:07,800 Speaker 1: against with your muscles. Any true conflict of will would 1461 01:22:07,840 --> 01:22:11,479 Speaker 1: be internal, right. So one common example we have of 1462 01:22:11,520 --> 01:22:15,080 Speaker 1: what it feels like to have an internal conflict is 1463 01:22:15,120 --> 01:22:19,200 Speaker 1: the struggle for self discipline. Very common experiences. People are 1464 01:22:19,200 --> 01:22:21,240 Speaker 1: on a diet, Right, you're on a diet, you want 1465 01:22:21,240 --> 01:22:23,760 Speaker 1: to shove a whole pizza in your face. Uh. And 1466 01:22:23,800 --> 01:22:26,960 Speaker 1: the struggle doesn't take place in your arms as you're 1467 01:22:26,960 --> 01:22:30,439 Speaker 1: holding the pizza. It takes place in your consciousness in 1468 01:22:30,439 --> 01:22:34,280 Speaker 1: this you know, untethered realm of the mind between your 1469 01:22:34,320 --> 01:22:37,160 Speaker 1: base desires and your sense of self control. And it 1470 01:22:37,160 --> 01:22:39,560 Speaker 1: takes place before you get up and walk over to 1471 01:22:39,600 --> 01:22:42,240 Speaker 1: the pizza box, right, not while the pizzas in your 1472 01:22:42,320 --> 01:22:44,280 Speaker 1: hand on the way to your mouth. Right. If you're 1473 01:22:44,320 --> 01:22:46,760 Speaker 1: gonna observe this in somebody, you're gonna see them standing, 1474 01:22:46,840 --> 01:22:48,640 Speaker 1: say a few feet away from the table with the 1475 01:22:48,640 --> 01:22:52,000 Speaker 1: pizza kind of eyeing it longingly. They're not going to 1476 01:22:52,320 --> 01:22:55,200 Speaker 1: have the pizza in one hand, like trying to hold 1477 01:22:55,280 --> 01:22:59,240 Speaker 1: the pizza arm back from their open mouth, sweating bullets 1478 01:22:59,240 --> 01:23:02,080 Speaker 1: the whole time. Now, the ship is sailed once pizza 1479 01:23:02,160 --> 01:23:05,920 Speaker 1: is in hand, by by pizza ship. Now. The other 1480 01:23:06,000 --> 01:23:07,880 Speaker 1: day we were talking about this, Robert, and I thought 1481 01:23:07,880 --> 01:23:10,040 Speaker 1: you had a really great example of a of a 1482 01:23:10,040 --> 01:23:14,400 Speaker 1: movie that does show an internal conflict of will. Oh yeah, yeah, 1483 01:23:14,439 --> 01:23:17,080 Speaker 1: I mean they're they're probably a number of examples of this. 1484 01:23:17,160 --> 01:23:19,479 Speaker 1: But for me might go to example when I think 1485 01:23:19,520 --> 01:23:23,160 Speaker 1: of a tremendous scene in which an actor is able 1486 01:23:23,200 --> 01:23:27,200 Speaker 1: to portray inner conflict and that the inner turmoil over 1487 01:23:27,280 --> 01:23:31,720 Speaker 1: a decision is the Godfather. There's a wonderful scene where 1488 01:23:31,720 --> 01:23:38,000 Speaker 1: al Pacino, Young al Pacino, um young, talented Alpaccino, understated 1489 01:23:38,000 --> 01:23:42,599 Speaker 1: Alpaccino as Michael Corleone is in the restaurant. He has 1490 01:23:42,640 --> 01:23:46,559 Speaker 1: this meeting with the rival gang individual, the Turk, the 1491 01:23:46,560 --> 01:23:49,000 Speaker 1: guy who's just had his father's shot. Yeah. So he's 1492 01:23:49,000 --> 01:23:51,639 Speaker 1: been through a lot of turmoil, a lot of personal trauma, 1493 01:23:51,960 --> 01:23:54,640 Speaker 1: and he's been pressured by the family. He's been pressured 1494 01:23:54,680 --> 01:23:59,760 Speaker 1: by just the the severe nature of the scenario that 1495 01:23:59,840 --> 01:24:03,000 Speaker 1: the threats against them to meet the Turk, and then 1496 01:24:03,040 --> 01:24:05,160 Speaker 1: he's gonna go into the bathroom. He's going to get 1497 01:24:05,160 --> 01:24:08,719 Speaker 1: a gun from behind the toilet bowl, come back out, 1498 01:24:09,479 --> 01:24:12,880 Speaker 1: shoot the Turk, and then walk out of the restaurant. Uh. 1499 01:24:13,000 --> 01:24:15,120 Speaker 1: But he doesn't come out guns ablaze, and he comes 1500 01:24:15,120 --> 01:24:17,839 Speaker 1: back out and he sits down, and there's this wonderful 1501 01:24:17,880 --> 01:24:20,160 Speaker 1: scene where the Turks still talking to him, trying to 1502 01:24:20,200 --> 01:24:22,160 Speaker 1: convince him one thing or the other, and you just 1503 01:24:22,200 --> 01:24:26,080 Speaker 1: see the mental wheels turning. Michael's not moving at all, 1504 01:24:26,600 --> 01:24:29,839 Speaker 1: but you just did the sense of his inner struggle 1505 01:24:29,960 --> 01:24:35,920 Speaker 1: is just palfitable. That is what I think, mind that 1506 01:24:35,960 --> 01:24:38,240 Speaker 1: this is the mind control the struggle. This is a 1507 01:24:38,280 --> 01:24:41,080 Speaker 1: struggle against mind control that we would see that is 1508 01:24:41,160 --> 01:24:44,800 Speaker 1: not a scene where Michael Corleone is is, you know, 1509 01:24:45,000 --> 01:24:47,640 Speaker 1: shaking and gripping the gun. Once he decides to do it, 1510 01:24:47,800 --> 01:24:50,559 Speaker 1: he stands up and he does it. But again I 1511 01:24:51,040 --> 01:24:54,240 Speaker 1: we mentioned this earlier. I don't know if the idea 1512 01:24:54,280 --> 01:24:57,919 Speaker 1: of a struggle against mind control is really so much plausible, 1513 01:24:58,160 --> 01:25:00,840 Speaker 1: even in you imagine the far future, you've got these 1514 01:25:00,880 --> 01:25:06,240 Speaker 1: incredibly powerful neurotechnologies. I don't know. Somehow, I don't see 1515 01:25:06,280 --> 01:25:10,320 Speaker 1: it being a battle of internal will. It seems to 1516 01:25:10,320 --> 01:25:12,360 Speaker 1: me that you would either be in control of your 1517 01:25:12,360 --> 01:25:16,560 Speaker 1: actions primarily and maybe have some kind of sentiments seeded 1518 01:25:16,640 --> 01:25:18,760 Speaker 1: that you could be fighting against. I can see that 1519 01:25:18,920 --> 01:25:22,280 Speaker 1: more traditional types of seating, where they've they're trying to 1520 01:25:22,400 --> 01:25:27,360 Speaker 1: influence your behavior with feelings or something like that. Um 1521 01:25:27,600 --> 01:25:32,200 Speaker 1: or you're just completely dominated, you're completely controlled, you don't 1522 01:25:32,240 --> 01:25:34,439 Speaker 1: even know that you're being controlled, and you have no 1523 01:25:34,640 --> 01:25:38,080 Speaker 1: resistance whatsoever. How could you fight back with your willpower 1524 01:25:38,160 --> 01:25:40,360 Speaker 1: when your willpower is the very thing that has been 1525 01:25:40,400 --> 01:25:44,160 Speaker 1: possessed exactly if if you didn't realize it, in what 1526 01:25:44,280 --> 01:25:47,600 Speaker 1: way would the mind control be different than it just 1527 01:25:47,680 --> 01:25:54,439 Speaker 1: being your decision? And therefore, why resist your news? Why 1528 01:25:54,520 --> 01:25:57,640 Speaker 1: fight back? Robert, You're the voice of evil, You're the 1529 01:25:57,680 --> 01:26:01,599 Speaker 1: demon on the shoulder. If if you have the power 1530 01:26:01,680 --> 01:26:04,000 Speaker 1: to resist those who are telling you to do evil, 1531 01:26:04,160 --> 01:26:06,719 Speaker 1: you should resist. Well, I think one of the important 1532 01:26:06,720 --> 01:26:10,000 Speaker 1: things is as to to know at what point to 1533 01:26:10,080 --> 01:26:13,840 Speaker 1: resist once they've already grasp your will, it's too late. 1534 01:26:14,240 --> 01:26:17,280 Speaker 1: But mind control in real life often takes place at 1535 01:26:17,479 --> 01:26:20,200 Speaker 1: far in far more subtler ways. Um. I always come 1536 01:26:20,240 --> 01:26:22,760 Speaker 1: back to that saying if someone, if someone can can 1537 01:26:22,760 --> 01:26:25,240 Speaker 1: tell you what to read and what to watch, then 1538 01:26:25,240 --> 01:26:26,760 Speaker 1: they can tell you how to think. They can tell 1539 01:26:26,760 --> 01:26:29,160 Speaker 1: you what to think. Yeah. The real form of mind 1540 01:26:29,160 --> 01:26:32,559 Speaker 1: control is the mundane form of control, the kind that 1541 01:26:32,600 --> 01:26:36,799 Speaker 1: actually exists, as the kind we encounter every day. And 1542 01:26:36,800 --> 01:26:39,479 Speaker 1: and that's what we should be on our guard against. Yeah, 1543 01:26:39,520 --> 01:26:43,519 Speaker 1: all those little battles of mind control, Uh, not so much. 1544 01:26:43,560 --> 01:26:48,360 Speaker 1: The the epic war well said, all right, well, there 1545 01:26:48,400 --> 01:26:52,439 Speaker 1: you have it. A crash course, and mind control. Some 1546 01:26:52,520 --> 01:26:57,040 Speaker 1: of the the hardware that that can slash will make 1547 01:26:57,080 --> 01:27:00,160 Speaker 1: it happen, as well as good old fashioned hypnotism and 1548 01:27:00,200 --> 01:27:06,559 Speaker 1: its ability to varying degrees um control our behavior. 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And if you want to get 1557 01:27:26,960 --> 01:27:29,400 Speaker 1: in touch with this directly, as always, you can email 1558 01:27:29,479 --> 01:27:31,880 Speaker 1: us at blow the Mind at how stuff works dot 1559 01:27:31,960 --> 01:27:43,679 Speaker 1: com for more on this and thousands of other topics. 1560 01:27:43,960 --> 01:28:01,120 Speaker 1: Is that how stuff Works dot com is point two 1561 01:28:01,400 --> 01:28:04,440 Speaker 1: pop potrophic po