WEBVTT - The Misinformation Export Industry 0:00:01.800 --> 0:00:04.440 This is Bloomberg Business Week. I'm Carol Masser and I'm 0:00:04.480 --> 0:00:07.280 Bloomberg Quick Takes Tim Stanovk. We're here every day bringing 0:00:07.320 --> 0:00:09.840 you the latest news from the world to business and finance, 0:00:09.840 --> 0:00:13.680 plus technology, politics, economics, all partnising the power of Business 0:00:13.680 --> 0:00:17.119 Week reporters and editors, not to mention our journalists and 0:00:17.160 --> 0:00:20.000 analyst in more than one twenty countries. You can download 0:00:20.000 --> 0:00:23.239 Bloomberg Business Week on iTunes, SoundCloud, or Bloomberg dot Com. 0:00:23.400 --> 0:00:25.160 You can also listen to our radio show at two 0:00:25.200 --> 0:00:27.880 pm Eastern Time on Bloomberg Radio or watch us on 0:00:27.920 --> 0:00:31.760 YouTube search Bloomberg Global News. We just talked about some 0:00:31.840 --> 0:00:36.199 of the day's COVID and vaccine headlines. Dr Anthony Fauci, 0:00:36.280 --> 0:00:38.159 who's the director of the National Institute of Allergy and 0:00:38.200 --> 0:00:41.720 Infectious Diseases, he spoke to Bloomberg's David Western earlier today 0:00:41.760 --> 0:00:44.960 at the Bloomberg Business Week Live event, and they talked 0:00:45.000 --> 0:00:48.639 about the possibility of another COVID wave. We don't want 0:00:48.680 --> 0:00:53.240 to declare victory prematurely, but if we can get thee 0:00:54.560 --> 0:00:58.160 of adults vaccinated with at least one doze by the 0:00:58.200 --> 0:01:00.760 fourth of July, the way the president to set the goal. 0:01:01.520 --> 0:01:04.800 I think the chances of there being a surge or 0:01:04.840 --> 0:01:09.120 a rebound is extremely low. That's the reason why we 0:01:09.200 --> 0:01:13.080 want to continue to get people vaccinated, all right, And that, 0:01:13.160 --> 0:01:15.199 of course, was Dr Anthony Fauci, director with the National 0:01:15.200 --> 0:01:17.840 Institute of Aology and Infectious Diseases, catching up with our 0:01:18.000 --> 0:01:21.400 David Weston at the Bloomberg Business Week Live event. Let's 0:01:21.400 --> 0:01:24.800 talk about the latest on COVID and the vaccine. Suberklin 0:01:24.959 --> 0:01:28.480 is Professor of Molecular microbiology and Immunology at the Johns 0:01:28.480 --> 0:01:32.039 Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, supported by Michael R. Bloomberg, Founder, 0:01:32.080 --> 0:01:35.360 Bloomberg LP and Bloomberg Philanthropies. Her research on covering the 0:01:35.400 --> 0:01:39.080 mechanisms mediating how males and females differ in their immune 0:01:39.120 --> 0:01:42.720 responses to viral infection and vaccination. She's also co director 0:01:43.080 --> 0:01:45.840 of the Center for Women's Health, Sex and Gender Research. 0:01:46.080 --> 0:01:49.160 She's with us on the phone in Baltimore. Sober nice 0:01:49.160 --> 0:01:52.760 to have you here with Tim and me. So Dr 0:01:52.840 --> 0:01:55.440 Anthony Fauci I think surprised us by some of the 0:01:55.480 --> 0:01:57.600 things he had to say about maybe we won't need 0:01:57.640 --> 0:02:01.520 a booster, talking about the passa ability of another COVID wave. 0:02:02.040 --> 0:02:04.440 What's the reality, What are the discussions you all have 0:02:04.560 --> 0:02:07.080 it Johns Hopkins about maybe what's next from here? The 0:02:07.080 --> 0:02:11.079 good and the bad? I think I think the good 0:02:11.240 --> 0:02:14.600 the good news is that the vaccines are proving to 0:02:14.639 --> 0:02:19.120 be excellent and they're proving to be protective against some 0:02:19.240 --> 0:02:23.600 of these variants UM, including the variants that was initially 0:02:23.600 --> 0:02:28.400 identified in the United Kingdom UM, which has is quite 0:02:28.440 --> 0:02:32.760 prevalent now here in the United States. So I think 0:02:32.840 --> 0:02:36.120 that is very good news, and I think that likely 0:02:36.200 --> 0:02:42.560 contributed to the CDC's UM recommendation that that those of 0:02:42.639 --> 0:02:46.560 us who are vaccinated are allowed to be unmaked um 0:02:46.800 --> 0:02:51.920 outdoors and in some situations indoors UM. I think the 0:02:51.919 --> 0:02:56.200 the what we see in other countries cause us to 0:02:56.240 --> 0:03:00.359 pause and probably cause Dr Fauci to remind into all 0:03:00.400 --> 0:03:04.560 of us that that just because we are our numbers 0:03:04.560 --> 0:03:08.520 of cases are down here in the United States UM, 0:03:08.560 --> 0:03:12.000 and we're getting so many people vaccinated, that we're still 0:03:12.040 --> 0:03:15.440 not completely out of the weeds. So, you know, I 0:03:15.480 --> 0:03:20.400 think they're trying to, you know, emphasize that for anybody 0:03:20.480 --> 0:03:24.600 who is hesitant at this moment about receiving the vaccine 0:03:25.160 --> 0:03:28.600 but want to go and be in public settings without 0:03:28.600 --> 0:03:31.600 a mask. They've got to get vaccinated. And we have 0:03:31.880 --> 0:03:34.640 so many millions of people who have been vaccinated that 0:03:34.720 --> 0:03:39.880 our understanding about the safety and efficacy of these vaccines 0:03:40.120 --> 0:03:44.080 it's tremendous. They are safe and they are efflications. Yeah, 0:03:44.120 --> 0:03:46.200 to that point, Dr Klein, it does seem like and look, 0:03:46.240 --> 0:03:47.880 it's been a week since we got that news from 0:03:47.920 --> 0:03:51.160 the CDC about being able to take masks off if 0:03:51.280 --> 0:03:54.800 in certain situations, if we are vaccinated, it does really 0:03:54.880 --> 0:03:57.800 feel like and and look, this is my impression, but 0:03:57.800 --> 0:04:00.440 correct and correct me if I'm wrong. But if you 0:04:00.760 --> 0:04:03.800 have been vaccinated with with one of the vaccines available 0:04:03.840 --> 0:04:07.760 for emergencies authorization in the US, it's it's like, seems 0:04:07.800 --> 0:04:11.760 like it's back to life. Is as normal it is, 0:04:12.080 --> 0:04:15.960 it has, it has that flavor and that potential. And 0:04:16.480 --> 0:04:19.200 I think, you know, I think this is this is 0:04:19.279 --> 0:04:22.240 so important, and I think from a public health perspective, 0:04:22.279 --> 0:04:26.440 this is so important because if if those of us 0:04:26.480 --> 0:04:30.240 who work with these vaccines study these vaccines, know these 0:04:30.320 --> 0:04:33.920 vaccines to be both safe and efficacious, if we believe 0:04:33.960 --> 0:04:36.480 in how well they're working, if we believe the data, 0:04:36.520 --> 0:04:40.600 which I do, that have come out about the effectiveness 0:04:40.640 --> 0:04:43.960 of these vaccines against the variant, then we should be 0:04:44.040 --> 0:04:47.360 able to take our masks off and trust that we 0:04:47.400 --> 0:04:52.000 will be protected, in particular against severe disease. UM. No 0:04:52.160 --> 0:04:54.599 vaccine is going to be a hundred percent, so as 0:04:54.600 --> 0:04:58.720 your listeners may have, you know, those those one off 0:04:58.800 --> 0:05:03.040 stories that somebody who got vaccinated but who's still got infected. 0:05:03.120 --> 0:05:07.760 I'm even thinking about our story about about the Yankee UM. 0:05:07.800 --> 0:05:10.359 You know it is going to happen. But I think 0:05:10.440 --> 0:05:14.000 what needs to be appreciated is this is precisely what 0:05:14.120 --> 0:05:16.960 can happen during a typical flu season. Is as we 0:05:17.120 --> 0:05:20.360 prepare for the flu season in the coming fall, we 0:05:20.400 --> 0:05:24.760 know that vaccines they reduced the probability of severe illness 0:05:24.839 --> 0:05:28.240 and death, they may not completely prevent you from ever 0:05:28.320 --> 0:05:31.680 getting infected. And I think that's what we're seeing in 0:05:31.680 --> 0:05:36.080 in some circumstances with the current um current stars Kobe 0:05:36.080 --> 0:05:38.279 two vaccines. And the other thing is Tim and I 0:05:38.320 --> 0:05:41.280 were talking about before we got going about how scientists 0:05:41.279 --> 0:05:43.839 are racing to figure out the so called correlates of 0:05:44.160 --> 0:05:48.119 correlates of protection against COVID, in other words, which test 0:05:48.160 --> 0:05:51.000 results a shore immunity. I mean, we don't exactly know 0:05:51.160 --> 0:05:54.080 when the protection from these vaccines is expected to wane. 0:05:54.480 --> 0:05:57.040 It's tricky and we don't necessarily the tests yet right 0:05:57.040 --> 0:06:01.480 to tell us exactly that You phrase all of that beautifully, 0:06:01.480 --> 0:06:05.480 That is all completely correct. And you know, I think 0:06:05.480 --> 0:06:11.320 as these companies were, were, you know, very acutely aware 0:06:11.400 --> 0:06:14.599 of how important it was to get these vaccines and 0:06:14.680 --> 0:06:19.279 determine their safety and define their efficacy based on the 0:06:19.320 --> 0:06:24.479 ability of the vaccine at present preventing excuse me, severe 0:06:24.839 --> 0:06:29.320 disease and illness they weren't going, and then doing the 0:06:29.360 --> 0:06:33.560 more detailed assessments that researchers like my myself typically do. 0:06:33.839 --> 0:06:35.760 So now you've got to let the rest of us 0:06:35.880 --> 0:06:40.680 catch up. Do our very detailed analyzes, study this durability, 0:06:40.960 --> 0:06:44.000 study the types of immune responses, and see which of 0:06:44.080 --> 0:06:49.039 those immune responses best predicts Okay, so when we say 0:06:49.040 --> 0:06:53.479 a correlative protection, we're looking for what is that measure 0:06:53.640 --> 0:06:59.920 of your immunity that sessed predicts protection. I want to 0:07:00.080 --> 0:07:03.159 get right into it when it when it comes to 0:07:03.200 --> 0:07:06.760 the questions that so many people have about pregnant women 0:07:06.839 --> 0:07:10.600 and vaccines, what do we know right now? What we 0:07:10.680 --> 0:07:15.080 know right now is we have through them the PBC 0:07:15.400 --> 0:07:21.840 Reporting system. UM, there have been thousands of pregnant women 0:07:21.960 --> 0:07:27.160 who perceived the available COVID nineteen vaccines. They have been 0:07:27.200 --> 0:07:32.200 proven to be safe UM in pregnant women. There is 0:07:32.640 --> 0:07:39.480 no evidence that these vaccines are causing UM adverse reactions 0:07:39.520 --> 0:07:43.240 either serious or non serious, at at a higher rate 0:07:43.320 --> 0:07:47.840 in pregnant women. So and and I think now knowing 0:07:47.960 --> 0:07:52.400 and having considerably more data over the course of this pandemic, 0:07:52.680 --> 0:07:59.440 that infection can uh results in you know, serious effects 0:07:59.520 --> 0:08:03.120 on preg that se outcomes including things like pre term 0:08:03.280 --> 0:08:07.920 birth UM. I think pregnant women UM. And the recommendation 0:08:08.000 --> 0:08:10.679 by the CDC is that pregnant women in their second 0:08:10.760 --> 0:08:15.040 or third trimester should definitely be getting getting vaccinated. Excuse me, 0:08:15.480 --> 0:08:17.840 what do though, pregnant women need to understand about kind 0:08:17.840 --> 0:08:20.240 of how this vaccine works to kind of feel more 0:08:20.360 --> 0:08:25.559 self assured or are confident about getting it. Absolutely so, 0:08:26.080 --> 0:08:30.400 you know, I think the nature of these platforms and 0:08:30.440 --> 0:08:34.160 the terminology that's used for these platforms m r N 0:08:34.280 --> 0:08:40.960 A virus vector vaccines these confound quite intimidating, as though 0:08:41.000 --> 0:08:45.240 they could do something off target, either to the pregnant 0:08:45.240 --> 0:08:49.880 women or their baby. And there is absolutely nothing to 0:08:49.960 --> 0:08:54.160 be concerned about. These are not causing infections in US. 0:08:54.200 --> 0:08:59.679 These are vaccines that, through their delivery mechanisms, are stimulating 0:08:59.720 --> 0:09:03.920 our cells um to to make in this case, the 0:09:04.040 --> 0:09:08.840 spike antigen um, which is what our immune system um 0:09:09.240 --> 0:09:14.959 recognizes in the stars Covey two virus. It's just proteins, 0:09:15.040 --> 0:09:19.440 so it can't replicate, it can't in fact, it can't 0:09:19.600 --> 0:09:25.760 do anything to harm either the pregnant woman or her fetus. 0:09:25.840 --> 0:09:28.640 So um, yeah, Professor Klein, I just want to jump 0:09:28.640 --> 0:09:31.640 in because, well, how would you answer the question if 0:09:31.640 --> 0:09:33.720 somebody came to you and said, but wait a second, 0:09:34.280 --> 0:09:38.880 we don't yet know if the vaccine has an effect 0:09:38.920 --> 0:09:45.320 on a baby in two three years. Absolutely, I would 0:09:45.360 --> 0:09:49.840 say that there's no evidence from any vaccine ever that 0:09:49.960 --> 0:09:52.800 there are those types of long term effects. But what 0:09:52.960 --> 0:09:59.559 there is ample evidence of is in utero infection during 0:09:59.640 --> 0:10:07.000 pregnan can have long term implications on the baby one 0:10:07.160 --> 0:10:11.120 to five ten years later, even in cases where the 0:10:11.200 --> 0:10:15.240 virus itself is not transmitted to the baby. So I 0:10:15.840 --> 0:10:19.680 think I think pregnant women need to be considerably more 0:10:19.760 --> 0:10:26.360 concerned that the probability of getting inspected in and getting sick, 0:10:26.880 --> 0:10:30.959 very sick, and having to potentially be hospitalized is greater 0:10:31.080 --> 0:10:33.960 if you're not vaccinated. It's greater for pregnant than non 0:10:34.000 --> 0:10:37.400 pregnant women. And the one way to mitigate this is 0:10:37.440 --> 0:10:40.200 by getting vaccinated. All right, some good advice, And I 0:10:40.200 --> 0:10:42.800 want to just mention one thing because I heard somebody 0:10:42.800 --> 0:10:45.079 talking about this to the CDC recommendation that women who 0:10:45.080 --> 0:10:48.520 need mammograms try to get them before vaccination or six 0:10:48.559 --> 0:10:52.000 weeks after a vaccination because of swollen lymph nodes under 0:10:52.040 --> 0:10:54.120 their arm. Like, we are finding out more information so 0:10:54.160 --> 0:10:57.320 that you have an understanding about when to do these things. Again, 0:10:57.400 --> 0:11:01.040 this is I don't want to say it's a Senex experiment, 0:11:01.080 --> 0:11:03.360 but we're watching the research play out in real time 0:11:03.440 --> 0:11:05.160 right now, and each day we do learn more and more, 0:11:05.200 --> 0:11:07.120 but still so many questions, especially when it comes to 0:11:07.320 --> 0:11:09.439 that question that you ask, Carol, to what extent does 0:11:09.679 --> 0:11:12.800 do these vaccines last past six, eight, ten months? Right? Exactly? 0:11:12.840 --> 0:11:14.439 We don't know yet, right because we've done it a 0:11:14.440 --> 0:11:17.280 little bit differently. Dr saber Kline. She's Professor of Molecular 0:11:17.320 --> 0:11:20.600 Microbiology Nammunology at Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, 0:11:20.679 --> 0:11:22.720 co director of the Center for Women's Health, Sex and 0:11:22.720 --> 0:11:25.000 Gender Research. Great to have her back with us on 0:11:25.040 --> 0:11:28.880 the phone from Baltimore. You're listening to Bloomberg Business Week 0:11:29.080 --> 0:11:33.000 with Carol Messer and Bloomberg Quick Takes. Tim Stinovic on 0:11:33.200 --> 0:11:36.959 Bloomberg Radio. Bloomberg Sarah Fryar. She has been following how 0:11:37.000 --> 0:11:40.480 social networks circulate information for years, and our latest reporting 0:11:40.520 --> 0:11:44.319 in the magazine covers how social networks are exporting disinformation 0:11:44.360 --> 0:11:47.920 about the COVID vaccine, and Tim exporting is the keyword. Yeah, 0:11:47.960 --> 0:11:50.440 it certainly is. Content that's blocked or flagged in the 0:11:50.520 --> 0:11:54.080 US often continues to circulate in other languages. The Joel. 0:11:54.120 --> 0:11:56.440 The question that I have whenever I read a story 0:11:56.480 --> 0:12:00.360 about content moderation and Facebook is these companies are most 0:12:00.400 --> 0:12:03.520 powerful technology companies with the brightest minds. Why can't they 0:12:03.520 --> 0:12:08.080 get this under control? Well, they can, um, and they've 0:12:08.120 --> 0:12:10.400 been cracking down on it. But in the case of 0:12:10.440 --> 0:12:14.720 the story that Um Sarah did, the problem becomes um 0:12:14.760 --> 0:12:18.839 that things get lost in translation, or that more more accurately, 0:12:19.640 --> 0:12:24.000 translations are still getting out there with the mins information. So, so, Sarah, 0:12:24.120 --> 0:12:25.719 can you help us get to the bottom this Why 0:12:25.720 --> 0:12:31.120 does it keep happening. Well, in this case, the global pandemic, 0:12:31.200 --> 0:12:33.680 it's a different situation than we've seen in the past. 0:12:33.720 --> 0:12:37.319 We've had this debate about Facebook and YouTube for years, 0:12:37.360 --> 0:12:40.120 the fact that they really just don't have people who 0:12:40.280 --> 0:12:43.680 understand and can moderate content in all the languages that 0:12:43.720 --> 0:12:47.280 they offer their services in. Their machine learning for finding 0:12:48.200 --> 0:12:54.360 vaccine misinformation and harmful misinformation is only proficient and about 0:12:54.400 --> 0:12:56.679 a dozen languages, and Facebook has offered in more than 0:12:56.720 --> 0:13:00.400 a hundred languages. So just just keep that in mind. Um. 0:13:00.520 --> 0:13:03.920 But the difference with this pandemic is it's it's a 0:13:03.960 --> 0:13:08.920 phenomenon that is global, and the information that is coming 0:13:09.000 --> 0:13:14.319 and circulating globally it has a similar potency to US 0:13:14.400 --> 0:13:17.520 pop culture. Researchers told me, I mean, this is just 0:13:17.960 --> 0:13:20.400 it's what's what we're talking about here. We've had access 0:13:20.400 --> 0:13:23.160 to the vaccines sooner here than they have in other countries, 0:13:23.640 --> 0:13:27.480 and that culture of the debates, the rumors of things 0:13:27.520 --> 0:13:30.760 that have already gone viral and gotten banned or gotten 0:13:30.840 --> 0:13:34.719 labeled in the US on YouTube and Facebook have then 0:13:34.880 --> 0:13:38.520 been translated into other languages and and are having a 0:13:38.559 --> 0:13:43.880 whole other cycle elsewhere and outside of the realm of 0:13:43.920 --> 0:13:46.880 these tools that can can really bring it under control. 0:13:47.120 --> 0:13:49.600 And just for our audience, you recognize her voice. Bloomberg 0:13:49.640 --> 0:13:52.000 News technology reporter and author of No Filter, The Inside 0:13:52.000 --> 0:13:54.960 Story of Instagram, Sarah Friar. She's with us from San Francisco, 0:13:54.960 --> 0:13:56.880 and of course Bloomberg Business we get out or Joe 0:13:56.920 --> 0:14:00.599 Webber right here to a friend that I forgot to 0:14:00.640 --> 0:14:07.040 tell everyone. Sarah, you know, we do have the technology 0:14:07.080 --> 0:14:09.080 available to us, and I believe Skype does it like 0:14:09.160 --> 0:14:12.120 real time translations in many different languages, and it's just 0:14:12.120 --> 0:14:14.800 so hard for me to to understand why if this 0:14:14.880 --> 0:14:18.000 type of machine learning is available, it is still so 0:14:18.080 --> 0:14:22.680 challenging for these companies to get this under control. Well, 0:14:22.720 --> 0:14:25.680 every time something new occurs, you have to train a 0:14:25.720 --> 0:14:30.160 model to find the images that UM that correspond with 0:14:30.240 --> 0:14:35.120 that problem and and understand the local context. Maybe people 0:14:35.160 --> 0:14:37.840 don't call it UM the same. There is a lot 0:14:37.920 --> 0:14:42.240 of colloquialisms around how you describe immunizations. There are a 0:14:42.280 --> 0:14:45.080 lot of UM, a lot of content that that may 0:14:45.120 --> 0:14:49.680 go viral in the US and and may not pop 0:14:49.760 --> 0:14:52.800 up for months elsewhere. And so I think that the 0:14:53.680 --> 0:14:57.560 UM the issue really is one of investment, is the 0:14:57.600 --> 0:15:01.760 fact that these companies have only just started to crack 0:15:01.800 --> 0:15:06.120 down strongly in English, and even then, I don't know 0:15:06.120 --> 0:15:10.160 about you, but I see so many rumors still circulating 0:15:10.200 --> 0:15:14.080 in English. People who are talking about, you know, the 0:15:14.160 --> 0:15:18.000 false notion that that the fiber maderna vaccine can shed 0:15:18.840 --> 0:15:22.200 to others, or cobb in fertility, all of those, all 0:15:22.280 --> 0:15:25.080 those things, those harmful things are still spreading. So the 0:15:25.080 --> 0:15:27.920 English version of this is not proficient. You just need 0:15:27.960 --> 0:15:31.960 to imagine that if you are witnessing this media environment 0:15:32.480 --> 0:15:37.120 in English, that is definitely worth in any other language. 0:15:37.240 --> 0:15:41.280 I thought that was particularly interesting. There's a paragraph in 0:15:41.320 --> 0:15:44.960 the story about Arabic subtitles in particular. Can you tell 0:15:45.040 --> 0:15:48.000 us about that one? And what a review by the 0:15:48.080 --> 0:15:53.320 Institute of Strategic Dialogue found. So, the Institute of the 0:15:53.400 --> 0:15:58.200 Strategic Dialogue found that there were these US originated videos 0:15:58.320 --> 0:16:04.480 of women shaking and convulsing purportedly after getting the shot. Um, 0:16:04.520 --> 0:16:07.080 but they were obviously, you know, lacking in context, and 0:16:07.440 --> 0:16:12.200 it wasn't verified. And then um they were labeled as 0:16:13.000 --> 0:16:16.680 meeting to be fact checked in the US on Facebook. 0:16:16.880 --> 0:16:21.000 But those same videos exactly the same content, just with 0:16:21.080 --> 0:16:26.080 Arabic subtitles. We're not caught by the same machine learning 0:16:26.120 --> 0:16:30.240 algorithms in in Arab language countries. So so I think 0:16:30.240 --> 0:16:32.240 that this is what we've seen happen over and over, 0:16:32.320 --> 0:16:37.920 is that the US drama occurs and gets evaluated and 0:16:37.920 --> 0:16:40.760 and we saw it also with the even before the 0:16:41.040 --> 0:16:44.200 era of vaccines, we saw with the planned Demic video. 0:16:44.320 --> 0:16:48.000 And if you guys remember that was the highly conspiratorial 0:16:48.720 --> 0:16:55.600 video documentary that you know, went and had millions of 0:16:55.680 --> 0:16:59.840 views on Facebook and YouTube before it was taken down 0:17:00.040 --> 0:17:03.840 finally by the platforms for its harmful impact. And that 0:17:03.960 --> 0:17:07.840 video was circulating in other countries for days, becoming a 0:17:07.920 --> 0:17:12.040 problem before it was addressed in other languages. So what 0:17:12.080 --> 0:17:14.679 do the social media companies, say, Sarah, when it comes 0:17:14.720 --> 0:17:20.520 to basically policing platforms outside the US, It is really 0:17:20.560 --> 0:17:24.880 not that transparent. Facebook skills is not disclosed, how many 0:17:24.920 --> 0:17:29.160 moderators it has in a certain language. Um, you know, 0:17:29.600 --> 0:17:33.479 any comparative data on how it's work in the US 0:17:33.600 --> 0:17:38.080 compares or in Europe compared to work elsewhere. Um, we 0:17:38.160 --> 0:17:43.679 get bulk statistics from from companies like like Alphabets, Google 0:17:43.720 --> 0:17:48.119 and YouTube, but we do not have any transparency into 0:17:48.119 --> 0:17:52.359 the actual effectiveness we are relying on this anecdotal research 0:17:52.560 --> 0:17:56.479 from people who who spend their whole career looking at 0:17:56.520 --> 0:17:58.840 this problem, and they're telling us that this is the 0:17:58.840 --> 0:18:02.280 trend that they're seeing. But Um, but I really think 0:18:02.359 --> 0:18:04.760 that in order to get to the bottom of this, 0:18:05.119 --> 0:18:07.960 we're gonna need a lot more information from these companies 0:18:07.960 --> 0:18:10.880 that have now had had so much control over our 0:18:10.880 --> 0:18:14.240 global information diet Sarah, I know you've spent months reporting 0:18:14.280 --> 0:18:18.280 on misinformation when it comes to vaccines on these platforms, 0:18:18.280 --> 0:18:21.000 in years reporting on these platforms, and in the research 0:18:21.040 --> 0:18:25.040 for your book. UM, give us the motivation for people 0:18:25.080 --> 0:18:27.600 who do spread this disinformation in just the lass thirty 0:18:27.640 --> 0:18:32.240 seconds that we have with you. It is about being 0:18:32.240 --> 0:18:35.439 a personality on the internet, about getting that engagement, and 0:18:35.440 --> 0:18:38.359 in some cases about making money. I mean, the people 0:18:38.400 --> 0:18:43.800 who are telling you that vaccines are are scary and 0:18:43.880 --> 0:18:47.440 possibly harmful, they're also trying to sell you alternatives. They're saying, 0:18:47.480 --> 0:18:50.199 by my supplements instead, or you know, come to my 0:18:50.280 --> 0:18:54.080 mindfulness retreat instead, UM, listen to my podcast. And so 0:18:54.200 --> 0:18:56.320 I think there is a commercial aspect, there is an 0:18:56.359 --> 0:18:59.280 ego aspect to this, and there are some people who 0:18:59.720 --> 0:19:02.040 really have fallen down the rabbit hole and believe it 0:19:02.560 --> 0:19:05.680 and are trying to to keep each other's safe. And 0:19:05.960 --> 0:19:07.560 those are the people that we need to make sure 0:19:07.600 --> 0:19:10.800 get the right information. Well, great continuing coverage, Sarah, Thank 0:19:10.840 --> 0:19:13.560 you so much, Bloomberg News technology reporter, author of No Filter, 0:19:13.720 --> 0:19:16.520 the inside story of Instagram. Sarah Fire on the phone 0:19:16.560 --> 0:19:18.639 in San Francisco. Are thanks to Bloomberg Business we get 0:19:18.640 --> 0:19:22.160 out to Jill Weber in our Interactive broker's studio. You're 0:19:22.200 --> 0:19:26.159 listening to Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Messer and Bloomberg 0:19:26.240 --> 0:19:31.040 Quick Takes Tim Stinovic on Bloomberg Radio. This is I'm 0:19:31.080 --> 0:19:32.960 just checking. It's our most red story in the Bloomberg 0:19:32.960 --> 0:19:35.360 in the past eight hours. It's about Morgan Stanley, now 0:19:35.400 --> 0:19:37.720 the latest big US bank to shake up its leadership. 0:19:38.000 --> 0:19:40.200 So here with this scoop is Bloomberg News Finance reporter 0:19:40.240 --> 0:19:44.439 Street n Uragan. He's in our Interactive Brokers studio. So 0:19:46.880 --> 0:19:50.040 you know where I want to go. I'm looking at 0:19:50.040 --> 0:19:53.880 the visual. I know everybody's saying it. So four white 0:19:53.880 --> 0:19:56.920 guys and Goodwind on radio and good thing. We're on radio, 0:19:57.000 --> 0:19:59.400 but on YouTube. I don't know if everybody can see this. Wait, 0:19:59.440 --> 0:20:01.960 I'm gonna low. It's all over Twitter here it is, Yeah, 0:20:01.960 --> 0:20:06.120 it's all over Twitter. Um, did James Gorman not get 0:20:06.119 --> 0:20:11.040 the memo? Look, I think, to be completely fair, Morgan 0:20:11.119 --> 0:20:14.080 Stanley would probably tell you that this is a moment 0:20:14.240 --> 0:20:18.719 in Times snapshot, even before diversity was a buzzword on 0:20:18.840 --> 0:20:21.320 Wall Street. This is a firm that had Ruth poor 0:20:21.359 --> 0:20:24.000 At as it's CFO six years ago. She left and 0:20:24.280 --> 0:20:28.000 went to Google and rose higher there, and then there 0:20:28.040 --> 0:20:30.679 was Zoe Cruise before the financial crisis around around that 0:20:30.720 --> 0:20:32.600 time two thousand seven two, when she was the co 0:20:32.720 --> 0:20:36.320 president of the firm. So Morgan Stanley has had women 0:20:36.720 --> 0:20:40.160 in senior leadership roles because it's a separate question why 0:20:40.240 --> 0:20:43.040 they have not been able to climb to the highest rank. 0:20:43.600 --> 0:20:46.199 But it would not be totally fair to say that 0:20:46.240 --> 0:20:49.760 Morgan Stanley stands out different from every other bank. But 0:20:49.920 --> 0:20:52.720 at a time that we are in right now where 0:20:52.720 --> 0:20:55.840 you're seeing succession planning everywhere, and you know, when the 0:20:55.880 --> 0:20:58.440 senior leaders are thinking about and the heels of JP 0:20:58.600 --> 0:21:03.120 Morgan what the future looks like, it does it does 0:21:03.200 --> 0:21:06.320 strike a bit of a discordant note. But if you're 0:21:06.480 --> 0:21:09.840 CEO S sixty two and the next generation is in 0:21:09.880 --> 0:21:12.840 the mid fifties. You still have a Wall Street that 0:21:13.000 --> 0:21:17.520 is populated with you know, old white men in that 0:21:18.000 --> 0:21:21.840 racket who have that experience, who have rose through the ranks, 0:21:21.840 --> 0:21:24.720 who have got that divisional experience across the board. The 0:21:24.800 --> 0:21:27.440 real pipeline, and it is coming up elsewhere, perhaps not 0:21:27.520 --> 0:21:30.200 as fast as it should be, but the real pipeline 0:21:30.320 --> 0:21:33.719 is probably in the late thirties, in the early forties, 0:21:33.760 --> 0:21:37.000 mid forties generation, and that crew is still a while 0:21:37.040 --> 0:21:41.520 away from getting the top perch at any major institution. Yeah, 0:21:41.600 --> 0:21:44.000 the new co presidents are are ted. Pick is fifty 0:21:44.000 --> 0:21:48.119 two Andy sapristein who are these people and who is 0:21:48.160 --> 0:21:52.040 this quartet? Well, that Pick is, of course, uh, you know, 0:21:52.240 --> 0:21:55.600 seen as the turnaround artists at Morgan Stanley. He started 0:21:55.640 --> 0:21:58.880 his career out as a e c M banker equity 0:21:58.880 --> 0:22:01.520 capital markets. He out with the ip of Google, he 0:22:01.520 --> 0:22:04.160 helped with the IP of Blackstone. But then of course 0:22:04.240 --> 0:22:07.960 his real climb at Morgan Stanley is considered with what 0:22:08.000 --> 0:22:11.159 he did post crisis, and the crisis was a really 0:22:11.200 --> 0:22:13.480 difficult time for Morgan Standay like most other banks, but 0:22:13.560 --> 0:22:17.480 for Morgan Stanley in particular. But post crisis he helped 0:22:17.800 --> 0:22:20.560 rebuild the trading division, the equities group. He took it 0:22:20.720 --> 0:22:23.200 to the dominant player, to the number one standing on 0:22:23.280 --> 0:22:26.520 Wall Street. Then he was tasked with repairing their fixed 0:22:26.560 --> 0:22:31.160 income division, which really was, you know, to be completely blunt, 0:22:31.280 --> 0:22:34.640 a train wreck, and he took some hard steps there, 0:22:34.640 --> 0:22:37.000 and hard steps in Wall Street means a big number 0:22:37.000 --> 0:22:39.480 of job cuts. But since then it does seem to 0:22:39.480 --> 0:22:41.919 have rebounded. The trading group has done really well. And 0:22:41.920 --> 0:22:44.919 then he was given oversight of its traders and dealmaker's 0:22:44.960 --> 0:22:47.879 head of the Corporate Investment Bank. So it made sense 0:22:47.960 --> 0:22:49.960 for him to be rising to the position of a 0:22:50.000 --> 0:22:53.480 president because the c IB is about fifty of the 0:22:53.480 --> 0:22:56.600 firm's revenue. The other half of the majority of the 0:22:56.640 --> 0:23:00.720 other half comes from wealth management, and the Sapperstein has 0:23:00.760 --> 0:23:03.960 helped Bill Morgan Stanley into this wealth management powerhouse, and 0:23:04.000 --> 0:23:05.800 that has been carried out really in the course of 0:23:05.800 --> 0:23:08.280 the last ten years. You think about the Smith Barney 0:23:08.320 --> 0:23:11.080 acquisition in two thousand ten, from there all the way 0:23:11.119 --> 0:23:13.439 through to the e Trade purchase last here, which was 0:23:13.480 --> 0:23:16.520 a Jumboard deal. The biggest bank deal in over a 0:23:16.520 --> 0:23:19.280 decade or probably even since the Smith Barney deal again 0:23:19.359 --> 0:23:24.399 was carried out by Morgan Stanley, and that has shifted 0:23:24.440 --> 0:23:27.680 the center of gravity at the film. It really has 0:23:27.720 --> 0:23:30.360 his balance of you know, they have the standing among 0:23:30.440 --> 0:23:33.399 the elites of investment banking as well as such a 0:23:33.440 --> 0:23:37.120 big operation intending to customers his money. Concidal living anytime 0:23:37.160 --> 0:23:39.920 seeing that it doesn't sound like he's keen on leaving 0:23:39.960 --> 0:23:42.240 anytime soon. Our understanding he's already told the board, the 0:23:42.240 --> 0:23:44.080 scenior management that he wants to stick around for at 0:23:44.119 --> 0:23:46.840 least three more years. And who can blame him? This 0:23:46.920 --> 0:23:49.960 is the best performing major US banks talk in the 0:23:50.040 --> 0:23:52.320 last five years. And the wind going is this good? 0:23:52.560 --> 0:23:55.120 Would you really want to walk off into the sunset? 0:23:55.400 --> 0:23:58.520 So what happens now is these these four individuals and 0:23:58.600 --> 0:24:02.000 as as you write, the shuffle thrust the quartet into 0:24:02.000 --> 0:24:05.320 a public bake off to succeed Gorman. What happens now, 0:24:05.680 --> 0:24:08.760 well I did speak with Gorman and he said it 0:24:08.800 --> 0:24:11.919 gives them time to spread their wings. So it really 0:24:12.080 --> 0:24:14.320 is going to play off as a bike off. You 0:24:14.400 --> 0:24:16.679 have these four people right now and these would be 0:24:16.720 --> 0:24:19.400 seen as the leading contenders. But that's now, that's six 0:24:19.440 --> 0:24:22.800 months from today, that's nine months from today. Three years 0:24:22.880 --> 0:24:25.880