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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 1: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried Bones.

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Speaker 2: Hey, Paul, Right, Kate, how are you?

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Speaker 1: I'm doing great? You know, I want to talk about

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Speaker 1: our backgrounds because I've definitely had some people message me

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Speaker 1: and ask about different things in my background, but we've

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Speaker 1: never talked about your background. What's in your background? Is

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Speaker 1: there anything weird or significant?

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Speaker 2: Well? You know, behind me is my bookshelf, and it

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Speaker 2: contains most of the books that I read throughout my career.

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Speaker 2: Some of them are academic texts, some of them are

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Speaker 2: your true crime. You know, a lot of the paperback

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Speaker 2: stuff is the true crime you know, stories on various cases,

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Speaker 2: and I've been somewhat changing it up. I don't know

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Speaker 2: if anybody's noticed it, but you know, one of the things,

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Speaker 2: you know, over to my left, I have another little

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Speaker 2: bookshelf and I had hidden away, you know, probably one

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Speaker 2: of the most significant books to my career, which is

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Speaker 2: this one here up to my left, sexual Homicide Patterns

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Speaker 2: and Motives. And this is the academic test for the

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Speaker 2: Netflix SERI mind Hunter.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 2: So when the FBI was going around interviewing the caught

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Speaker 2: serial killers, they compiled all of that into this book.

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Speaker 2: And my parents actually gave me that book for my

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Speaker 2: twenty fifth birthday. Could you imagine giving your son a

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Speaker 2: book called sexual homicide? You know, But one of the

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Speaker 2: things I've been thinking about doing because I decided I

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Speaker 2: wanted to highlight that book because it was so significant

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Speaker 2: to me. And then we recorded a little while ago,

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Speaker 2: and you had asked me about rapist typologies, and you know,

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Speaker 2: one of the books that's again very significant to me

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Speaker 2: was Bob Kepple's book called Signature Killers, which is this

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Speaker 2: book up here. You could see Ted Buddy's face on it.

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Speaker 2: But doctor Kepple, who was an investigator with King's County

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Speaker 2: Sheriff's Office during the Ted Bundy investigation. He ended up

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Speaker 2: becoming a profiler, and he wrote this book where he

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Speaker 2: took the gross rapist typologies and put that onto the

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Speaker 2: categories of serial killers. And so that I decided why

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Speaker 2: I wanted to highlight that book, and I thought, you

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Speaker 2: know what, there may be something I changed from time

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Speaker 2: to time, just like little easter eggs, to see if

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Speaker 2: you or the viewers yet are able to spot different

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Speaker 2: different changes. And of course I've got this little buried

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Speaker 2: bone saying here, you know, so you know, maybe maybe

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Speaker 2: pay attention from time to time I might change things

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Speaker 2: up on you.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I go seasonal.

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Speaker 2: Okay.

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Speaker 1: When we first started taping, I had a nutcracker up

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Speaker 1: in one of my top shelves. Okay, but now what

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Speaker 1: I do? I mean, nobody noticed this is stuff but me.

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Speaker 2: But I.

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Speaker 1: I started putting like a different animal on. So if

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Speaker 1: you look at my fireplace, I don't know if you

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Speaker 1: can tell what's on there right now.

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Speaker 2: Is it a duck.

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Speaker 1: It's a duck. It's a sentimental duck. It's my dad's duck.

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Speaker 1: It's a wooden duck that his back flips open and

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Speaker 1: it has paper clips and little odds and ends for

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Speaker 1: a desk, and so I had that. But for a

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Speaker 1: while I had a pig, which was a Victory Bank pig.

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Speaker 1: Oh really, that was my mom's growing up. Okay, if

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Speaker 1: you look on the bottom of that poor pig, she

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Speaker 1: had chipped it out when she was a kid because

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Speaker 1: there's no opening to it. You just put your coins in,

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Speaker 1: and there's no way you're going to get it out

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Speaker 1: without smashing this pig. So she had tried to chip

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Speaker 1: it open, and she stowed. Her dad probably stopped her.

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Speaker 1: And then I tried to chip it open, and then

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Speaker 1: finally Quinn got it open about three years ago and

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Speaker 1: all of these coins from like the nineteen fifties came out.

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Speaker 2: Oh that's cool though, I like that, that's very cool,

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Speaker 2: So I tried.

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Speaker 1: I also had a mouse there for a while, a

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Speaker 1: little a little brass mouse that my mom had that's

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Speaker 1: very very old. That's a that's a more difficult one

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Speaker 1: to switch up because it has to fit perfectly. It

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Speaker 1: has to fit on this kind of like round that

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Speaker 1: I have there. But I definitely switch up books a lot.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, your books are I would never be able to

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Speaker 2: tell because they're so far in the background. If you

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Speaker 2: switch something out.

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Speaker 1: That's why I do the animals, the pigs. I can

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Speaker 1: switch up my Pendleton blankets that actually Karen and Georgia

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Speaker 1: sent me for Christmas. They're a wonderful quality will blanket,

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Speaker 1: and so I had that one back there, but I

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Speaker 1: bought a different kind that I might I might switch

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Speaker 1: things up a little bit. You know.

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Speaker 2: I'll try to pay attention and call you out on

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Speaker 2: something if I see it switched.

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Speaker 1: I hope that these stories aren't boring, so that you

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Speaker 1: are paying more attention to the animal that I have

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Speaker 1: never that would never happen.

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Speaker 2: No, not at all, never never.

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Speaker 1: Okay, we are going to be in Rhode Island today.

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Speaker 1: Love Love, Love Rhode Island. My last book was said

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Speaker 1: in Rhode Island time period in the eighteen hundreds, and

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Speaker 1: we're going to be back in Rhode Island in eighteen

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Speaker 1: forty three. You're going to learn even more history than

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Speaker 1: you ever thought or cared to learn about some things

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Speaker 1: that were happening in this time period. So let's go

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Speaker 1: ahead and set the scene. I try to think about

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Speaker 1: these cases and think, what is the one liner that

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Speaker 1: I can say to listeners' viewers at the very beginning

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Speaker 1: about what I think this case is, and this is

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Speaker 1: I know we always kind of talk about this, sometimes

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Speaker 1: more than others, but for me, this is a case

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Speaker 1: of what they could prove then and what we can

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Speaker 1: prove now, and just the tragedy of it seeing all

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Speaker 1: of the tools we have now where we could have

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Speaker 1: solved so many things, so many wrongful you know, convictions

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Speaker 1: and executions happened just because we didn't have the right tools.

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Speaker 1: And so then it makes me hopeful for everything that's

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Speaker 1: going to come in the future. What more are we

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Speaker 1: going to have at our disposal to solve crimes and

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Speaker 1: keep people safe?

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Speaker 2: Well? And we're seeing that today. You know, ever since

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Speaker 2: the really the end advent of modern DNA technology, you know,

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Speaker 2: people who were convicted of you know, the nineteen seventies,

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Speaker 2: nineteen eighties, or even more recently, how DNA has exonerated

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Speaker 2: you know, individuals that put decades of their time, of

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Speaker 2: their lives in prison and they were absolutely innocent. So

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Speaker 2: just imagine you know, what they were working with back

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Speaker 2: in the eighteen hundreds, and quite frankly, how many innocent

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Speaker 2: people probably were incarcerated and or sentenced to death for

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Speaker 2: something they didn't do.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely. I talk about this with my second book, American Sherlock,

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Speaker 1: about the forensic scientist, and you know, I read in

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Speaker 1: his notes where he said somebody asked him in a letter,

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Speaker 1: have you ever had doubts about anything you've done. This

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Speaker 1: is somebody who worked on two thousand cases in his lifetime,

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Speaker 1: and he said, no, I got them all right, got

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Speaker 1: them all right? That's wrong. He obviously didn't, you know,

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Speaker 1: and he was using some bad science, and that's worries.

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Speaker 1: I think you'll always have to like the das who

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Speaker 1: it's very clear they prosecuted and incarcerated the wrong person

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Speaker 1: who still refused to open up these cases for whatever reason.

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Speaker 1: That was alarming when I read that about Oscar hinrich.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think, you know, that's where, like I know,

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Speaker 2: from my career, everything I did, I felt that I

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Speaker 2: abided by ethics. I did everything. I formed my opinions

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Speaker 2: based off of what I felt was right. But the

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Speaker 2: biggest fear is is did I conclude something that ultimately

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Speaker 2: put the wrong person in prison? You know, that really

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Speaker 2: is a huge fear by anybody who really cares about

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Speaker 2: what they're doing. And so for Heinrich. You know, for

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Speaker 2: him to say why I was always right, that's a

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Speaker 2: lot of ego. Oh yeah, I would have liked to

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Speaker 2: hear him. I did everything to the best of my abilities.

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Speaker 2: Mm hmm, with the knowledge that I had, my expertise,

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Speaker 2: you know, the facts that I had available to me.

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Speaker 2: But you know, I think if you know, if you've

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Speaker 2: worked in this field for a long enough period of time,

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Speaker 2: you know there is going to be that uh oh,

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Speaker 2: you know, I sure hope everything I concluded over thirty

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Speaker 2: plus years of working in this field that it was

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Speaker 2: all right, But it's we're humans, right, Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And like I said, you know, I had interviewed Daniel Westcott,

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Speaker 1: who is the head of the Texas State Anthropology, a

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Speaker 1: forensic anthropology lab where they have the body farm. I

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Speaker 1: think it's the largest one in the United States. And

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Speaker 1: I said, what is your job and he said, it

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Speaker 1: is almost always to exclude, never to include, he said,

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Speaker 1: I everything that I have. It's basically saying this didn't happen.

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Speaker 1: I can't tell you one hundred percent what did happen,

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Speaker 1: but I can tell you what didn't happen based on

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Speaker 1: what I have. And so I thought that was important

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Speaker 1: you know.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's definitely the proble upper forensic philosophy, no

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Speaker 2: matter what forensic discipline that you're working in is you're

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Speaker 2: always looking for that exclusion. You're always looking for, you know,

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Speaker 2: something that benefits whether it be a suspect or benefits

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Speaker 2: the defendant to exclude them from the crime. But after,

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Speaker 2: as you know, you get so far in and you

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Speaker 2: can't exclude that. Now you know, it's like, well, how

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Speaker 2: strong is the inclusion? You know, and that's where you

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Speaker 2: see with DNA, well you can't exclude matches across the

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Speaker 2: entire DNA profile. Well how strong is that inclusion? And

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Speaker 2: that's where you start getting the statistics. So you know,

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Speaker 2: the try or effect, whether it be the judge or

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Speaker 2: the jurors, can put weight on the testimony that is

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Speaker 2: being you know, put in front of them that's pointing

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Speaker 2: at the defendant. I couldn't eliminate them, you know. So

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Speaker 2: this is how and so that's where as we've talked

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Speaker 2: in the past, that's where some of the comparative sciences

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Speaker 2: have gotten into trouble. You know. My perspective is there's

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Speaker 2: there's no doubt that you know, fingerprint comparisons and ballistics all,

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Speaker 2: you know, firearms comparisons, these comparative sciences have value, but

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Speaker 2: it's like, okay, what is the strength of the finding,

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Speaker 2: you know, And that's where some of them are struggling

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Speaker 2: to kind of give that objective statistic. So the court

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Speaker 2: can and the jury can go okay, and now I

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Speaker 2: understand you know what it is from a factual standpoint.

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Speaker 2: From a scientific standpoint.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, what do you weigh more? What should we really

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Speaker 1: pay more attention to? Yeah, okay, Well let's go back

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Speaker 1: to eighteen forty three, where I would say forensics is

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Speaker 1: very weak, and we're going to see that. So this

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Speaker 1: is sundown, four fifteen pm on New Year's Eve. We

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Speaker 1: just did a story set in early January in New

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Speaker 1: England in Massachusetts and cold, cold, cold, So we're in

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Speaker 1: the same situation here, very very cold, New Year's Eve,

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Speaker 1: December thirty first, eighteen forty three, four fifteen pm. And

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Speaker 1: we're in a place called Spragueville, Rhode Island. And it's

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Speaker 1: a village that's full of mill factories, boarding houses, schools,

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Speaker 1: and most of them are owned by a family called

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Speaker 1: the Spragues. So this is a very influential family around

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Speaker 1: New England and I'll tell you a little bit more

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Speaker 1: about them in a little bit, but this is, you know,

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Speaker 1: this is a kind of setting the scene here. The

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Speaker 1: family lives in a huge home which has been called

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Speaker 1: Sprague Mansion, and they have a servant named Michael Costello.

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Speaker 1: He's heading home from the mansion. He's west on Cranston

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Speaker 1: Road and he crosses this swampy area known as Hawkins

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Speaker 1: Hole and he approaches a footbridge over a river. I'm

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Speaker 1: going to show you a photo of the footbridge, which

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Speaker 1: is small, and the river, which is a really generous

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Speaker 1: term for what this is. It's almost a creek essentially,

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Speaker 1: in the river quote unquote is not yet frozen. So

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Speaker 1: in the middle of the bridge, Michael notices blood and

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Speaker 1: there's a trail. So he follows the bloody trail fifteen

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Speaker 1: to eighteen feet past the other side of the bridge,

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Speaker 1: and he kind of goes below the bridge. But this is,

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Speaker 1: like I said, it's a creak. Nothing's very high up.

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Speaker 1: So he kind of crosses over this little creek and

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Speaker 1: he goes down and he finds the bludgeoned body of

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Speaker 1: a middle aged man. So this is a man who's

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Speaker 1: laying face down with his head on his hands, his

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Speaker 1: legs are extended, and there are blood pools around his head.

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Speaker 1: So Michael doesn't touch the body. He races to alert

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Speaker 1: a doctor named Israel Bowen who lives really close by.

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Speaker 1: We've seen in other cases where somebody races to go

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Speaker 1: find the medical examiner and they show up three or

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Speaker 1: four hours later. Bowen comes immediately apparently, but nobody's turned

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Speaker 1: him over yet this man. By the time that they

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Speaker 1: return to the crime scene, there is a small crowd

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Speaker 1: that has gathered and they're searching the area contaminated crime

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Speaker 1: scene right there, So you know you have these curious

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Speaker 1: onlookers who are taking it upon themselves looking for whoever

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Speaker 1: did this to this man. There is a guy who

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Speaker 1: notices scattered blood drops continuing in the snow sixty to

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Speaker 1: eighty feet up the footpath. And another guy finds a

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Speaker 1: pistol underneath the northeast corner of this little footbridge, a

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Speaker 1: few yards from the body. So you have pedestrians finding

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Speaker 1: these two things. Go ahead and look at the photos

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Speaker 1: that I sent you so mad when you got that

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Speaker 1: page up.

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Speaker 2: So I'm looking at the second photo in this document,

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Speaker 2: and so this appears to just be a photo of

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Speaker 2: a trail, just a walking path through a forest.

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Speaker 1: This believe is the footpath that the man found. The

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Speaker 1: sixty to eighty drops of blood like the exit route

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Speaker 1: basically for whoever did this, is was what they're thinking.

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Speaker 2: Sure, So if that is truly the escape route that

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Speaker 2: the offender took, and you've got dripped blood for sixty

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Speaker 2: to eighty feet, he's bleeding himself. He's leaving his own

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Speaker 2: blood behind. Now, if it's just a dripped blood, that

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Speaker 2: could be, you know, from his nose, that could be

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Speaker 2: from a hand. You know. In essence, it's he's just

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Speaker 2: walking or moving maybe more swiftly along this trail away.

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Speaker 2: Of course, today this is a huge source of evidence

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Speaker 2: that could ultimately be used to identify the offender. In

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Speaker 2: eighteen forty three. You know, now they're just going, okay,

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Speaker 2: we have to if we interview any suspects pretty shortly

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Speaker 2: after the crime, we have to look to see if

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Speaker 2: that suspect has an injury that's fresh.

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Speaker 1: The reason I really wanted you to see the footpath

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Speaker 1: is the isolation part of it. It's just like if

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Speaker 1: you read a book, a novel, and you're picturing the

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Speaker 1: characters in your head and then you see what the

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Speaker 1: author used as inspiration. You think this looks nothing like

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Speaker 1: who I was picturing in my head. I don't know

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Speaker 1: why I was thinking of a clearing or kind of

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Speaker 1: in town. This looks isolated to me, at least based

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Speaker 1: on the footpath.

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Speaker 2: Well along this particular stretch. You know, this is reasonably

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Speaker 2: dense vegetation and forest. The footpath kind of curves out

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Speaker 2: of you, so it's not like you can, you know,

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Speaker 2: look right down the path and just see forever. You know,

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Speaker 2: it's you can only see roughly. You know, I don't

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Speaker 2: know how long that would be. Let's say fifty to

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Speaker 2: fifty to one hundred feet down this trail before it

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Speaker 2: curves out of sight.

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Speaker 1: Now, if you look at page three and page four,

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Speaker 1: you see this footbridge, and I think the fourth one

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Speaker 1: will give you kind of a perspective of this is

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Speaker 1: not a large river at all. This footpath is substantial.

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Speaker 1: But you know, you tell me what you think. I

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Speaker 1: don't know where he is. I think he's on the

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Speaker 1: other the side that says, not the Cranston side, but

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Speaker 1: the other one. But regardless, this is not like pushing

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Speaker 1: somebody off of a big incline or something.

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Speaker 2: No, so you know, looking at these two photos, you

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Speaker 2: know this this appears to be really more of a

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Speaker 2: primitive it's hard to even call it a bridge, even

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Speaker 2: though technically it's crossing a body of water. But it's

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Speaker 2: it's small, it's the bridge has been composed of stacked

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Speaker 2: rock in addition to what appears to be some wooden planks.

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Speaker 2: Maybe is three to four feet above the level of

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Speaker 2: the water the top of the bridge. And this is

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Speaker 2: just a creek in my.

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Speaker 1: Opinion, I said that the river is generous.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I that. I mean it looks like maybe it's

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Speaker 2: i don't know, ten feet across. Yeah, and I can

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Speaker 2: see the bottom in this this one one photo where

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Speaker 2: this is not deep at all. It's only you know,

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Speaker 2: twelve inches maybe two feet deep at most, So you

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Speaker 2: know it is Yeah, I'm not seeing snow on the ground,

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Speaker 2: but I know it's this is a time of year

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Speaker 2: in which it would be very cold, for sure.

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Speaker 1: Also, these are photos that are not from then. It

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Speaker 1: was probably from later, maybe when they were demoing it

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Speaker 1: or something. But yeah, you're right, So what does it say.

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Speaker 1: I know, we don't know anything about this case yet,

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Speaker 1: but people use this footbridge. Michael's using this footbridge in

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Speaker 1: the afternoon. So who ever killed this guy just sort

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Speaker 1: of left him wherever whatever happened happen. He's not trying

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Speaker 1: to cover him up. He's face down and that's it.

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Speaker 1: In an area literally next to a bridge where people

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Speaker 1: will definitely cross at some point. Whoever did this is

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Speaker 1: not trying to cover this up or hide his body,

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Speaker 1: which seems like could be easy in this area to do.

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Speaker 1: You just rack him somewhere.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think that's where, you know, first, it's getting

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Speaker 2: into you know, some of the crime scene aspects. You've

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Speaker 2: got this middle aged male that's face down, he's got

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Speaker 2: a blood pool around his head. You know, part of

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Speaker 2: it is as you said, he was bludgeoned, but then

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Speaker 2: a pistol had been found nearby, so this is where, okay,

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Speaker 2: was he actually bludgeoned? Because oftentimes people who are shot

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Speaker 2: in the head and the amount of blood coming out

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Speaker 2: of the head can mat the hair and obscure facial features,

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Speaker 2: and so you know, it could be a gunshot victim.

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Speaker 2: At this point, from my perspective, I'd be looking to

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Speaker 2: see is there any indication of blood spatter from repeated

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Speaker 2: blows to the victim's head. To This is where now

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Speaker 2: victimology comes into play. Is this whoever this victim is.

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Speaker 2: Is this somebody that would routinely walk along this path

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Speaker 2: for one reason or another? Is this a victim of opportunity?

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Speaker 2: Was this a robbery gone bad? You know, where you

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Speaker 2: had somebody an offender that confronted the victim at this location.

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Speaker 2: Things went sideways, and now the offender kills the victim

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Speaker 2: and gets hurt in the process, and now escapes along

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Speaker 2: the footpath that has the dripped blood. Or was this

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Speaker 2: a meeting point? Was this a pre arranged meeting point

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Speaker 2: between you know, the victim and the offender and things

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Speaker 2: went sideways, and you know, eighteen forty three, I doubt

359
00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:25,040
Speaker 2: it was some drug deal going on, you know. So

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Speaker 2: this is where victimology becomes huge in terms of, okay,

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Speaker 2: what is what is going on here?

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Speaker 1: When they turn the body over, doctor Bowen recognizes the victim.

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Speaker 1: So he's forty five. His name is Amasa Sprague, as

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Speaker 1: in the town name. He is the richest and most

365
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Speaker 1: influential man in this town. He was very politically connected,

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Speaker 1: kind of all powerful, anti Catholic, you know, very much

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Speaker 1: kind of a nativist attitude. He was A, which is

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Speaker 1: a political party. In the eighteen hundreds, he and his

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Speaker 1: brother William had served on the Rhode Island Legislature, and

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Speaker 1: William was a US Senator and a governor, so very

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Speaker 1: very powerful, very very wealthy. So Michael Costello was apparently

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Speaker 1: his servant at the Sprague Manor.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so here you have a very wealthy individual. And

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Speaker 2: now it gets into Okay, does this look at the

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Speaker 2: crime scene? Does it look like a robbery because he

376
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Speaker 2: may have you know, financial assets on his person that

377
00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:35,480
Speaker 2: somebody would want to get access to and take those

378
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Speaker 2: assets by force and in the process, you know, killing

379
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Speaker 2: a massa? Is that how you say his name? M Yeah,

380
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Speaker 2: And that's where it would come. Is a massa routinely

381
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Speaker 2: walking along this path and it is targeted because of

382
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Speaker 2: who he is, you know? Or is there something more

383
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Speaker 2: devious going on? Maybe there's a business transaction, you know,

384
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Speaker 2: And why would a massa go and purposely meet with

385
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Speaker 2: a business partner or somebody out at this particular location.

386
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Speaker 2: The victimology of a massa is important, for sure, but

387
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Speaker 2: is not necessarily That's not the reason he got killed. Yeah,

388
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Speaker 2: It's just again this could he could just literally be

389
00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:19,040
Speaker 2: a victim of opportunity. You had a stranger out there

390
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Speaker 2: just lying in wait, or just happened to coincidentally run

391
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Speaker 2: across a massa and pulled a gun and a fight ensued,

392
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Speaker 2: and a Massa got the bad end of the deal.

393
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Speaker 2: And maybe his pockets are turned out, and you know

394
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Speaker 2: you've got coins or a wallet or whatever a massa

395
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Speaker 2: would be carrying back in eighteen forty three that the

396
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Speaker 2: guy took off, and it's just again it started out

397
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Speaker 2: as a robbery and ended up as a homicide.

398
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Speaker 1: Well, they find a silk handkerchief, an apple, loose change,

399
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Speaker 1: and an envelope. The envelope is marked one hundred dollars,

400
00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:52,440
Speaker 1: but it only has sixty dollars inside, which is twenty

401
00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:55,199
Speaker 1: five hundred dollars today. And he is also wearing a

402
00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:57,399
Speaker 1: gold watch, a very expensive gold watch.

403
00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:01,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, so the offender doesn't sound like he took anything

404
00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:02,280
Speaker 2: away from Amasa.

405
00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:05,040
Speaker 1: It doesn't sound like it. And he was discovered by

406
00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:09,800
Speaker 1: Michael Costello at four fifteen, But multiple people said they

407
00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:14,240
Speaker 1: saw a Massa in town up until about three thirty five,

408
00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:18,440
Speaker 1: So there is what less than an hour to work

409
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Speaker 1: with there. If everybody's doing you have multiple people agreeing

410
00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:22,320
Speaker 1: on the time.

411
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Speaker 2: Right, So if he's last seen like three thirty five

412
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Speaker 2: in town and his body's found at four point fifteen,

413
00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:34,159
Speaker 2: that's twenty five that's forty minutes. And he wasn't killed

414
00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:37,440
Speaker 2: just maybe a minute before his bodies found. He could

415
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Speaker 2: have been killed ten to fifteen minutes prior. So it's

416
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Speaker 2: a very narrow window. So I don't know how long

417
00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:46,480
Speaker 2: it would take a maasa to get from the town

418
00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:50,080
Speaker 2: to this particular location. That has to be factored in,

419
00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:53,600
Speaker 2: but it sounds like once a massa is at this location,

420
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Speaker 2: his death occurred pretty quick.

421
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Speaker 1: And you know, we were talking about people who might

422
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Speaker 1: have known schedule. Is this a normal thing? I don't

423
00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:07,600
Speaker 1: know that necessarily, but this is New Year's Eve, and

424
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Speaker 1: I wanted to know was New Year's Eva thing in

425
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Speaker 1: the eighteen hundreds, It was a big thing. So this

426
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Speaker 1: is not a business day for him most likely, And

427
00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:18,639
Speaker 1: you know this is this is if he's going to

428
00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:21,200
Speaker 1: have an unusual schedule, probably this would be one of

429
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Speaker 1: those days.

430
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Speaker 2: So now, in terms of assessing the offender, this is

431
00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:31,680
Speaker 2: where the autopsy could prove to be important because right now,

432
00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:34,520
Speaker 2: you know, I could I could throw out just the speculation.

433
00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:36,879
Speaker 2: Did a Masa meet up with some woman at this

434
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Speaker 2: location and she killed him? You know, I want to

435
00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:42,040
Speaker 2: know a little bit more about what happened to Amasa.

436
00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:45,680
Speaker 1: Okay, well let's get onto that. We have a corner.

437
00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:48,040
Speaker 1: So we've got the doctor who just happened to be

438
00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:51,400
Speaker 1: there living nearby, but we have a corner named Robert Watson.

439
00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:54,359
Speaker 1: He shows up, but it's starting to get dark at

440
00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:58,920
Speaker 1: six fifteen. The town sergeant is there and they haven't

441
00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:02,080
Speaker 1: paneled a corner's They all show up and they use

442
00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:05,120
Speaker 1: a lantern back to kind of the weird atmospheric part

443
00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:09,439
Speaker 1: of the eighteen hundreds with no lights. They're examining the

444
00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:14,120
Speaker 1: wounds that were identified for doctor Bowen. It's kind of complicated.

445
00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:18,080
Speaker 1: So here's what they find. The corner says that he

446
00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:23,360
Speaker 1: believes that Amasa dyed by blunt force trauma, probably the

447
00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:27,800
Speaker 1: edge of a musket guard to the head. Now, I

448
00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:29,960
Speaker 1: don't even know what a musket guard is. Do you

449
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:32,080
Speaker 1: know what part of the gun that is musket guard?

450
00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:33,719
Speaker 2: I know what a musket is.

451
00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:36,439
Speaker 1: A musket guard is called a flash guard, a safety

452
00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:40,120
Speaker 1: device used on flint lock muskets to deflect the flash

453
00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:43,080
Speaker 1: and hot gas is produced when the weapon is fired.

454
00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:46,439
Speaker 1: They are typically small metal plates, often made of brass

455
00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:50,639
Speaker 1: or iron, that attached to the musket lock, redirecting the

456
00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:53,399
Speaker 1: flames upward or downward instead of outwards.

457
00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:58,600
Speaker 2: You know. So this musket guard, if that is correct,

458
00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:05,639
Speaker 2: it's right on the rifle or the musket, right where

459
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:11,640
Speaker 2: the hammer basically is sort of in the middle of

460
00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:15,240
Speaker 2: the musket. So that's where i'm a little bit. I think.

461
00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:18,000
Speaker 2: For me to have confidence that they can conclude that,

462
00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:22,320
Speaker 2: I need to see what kind of patterned wounds they

463
00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:24,840
Speaker 2: were seeing to say, oh, yeah, I agree with that,

464
00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:27,879
Speaker 2: because that seems like it seems like a weird spot

465
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:30,760
Speaker 2: on the along the length of the musket that is

466
00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:35,160
Speaker 2: being used to do the bludgeoning. Not necessarily think if you.

467
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:38,560
Speaker 1: Grab if it's a musket and you're grabbing the barrel

468
00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:42,600
Speaker 1: and using it almost like a bat, yep, probably that

469
00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:45,520
Speaker 1: musket guard would catch the side of the person's head

470
00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:46,960
Speaker 1: and it's kind of sticking out.

471
00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:50,760
Speaker 2: Right possibly, and I can visualize that that's speculating, I

472
00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:54,520
Speaker 2: don't really know, but for the corner to come to

473
00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:57,000
Speaker 2: that conclusion, that tells me that they are looking at

474
00:26:57,040 --> 00:27:03,399
Speaker 2: a patterned wound and if he's correct that either a

475
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:07,800
Speaker 2: masa or the offender brought a musket to this location. Yep.

476
00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:10,280
Speaker 1: And they're saying that all of the wounds that they

477
00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:13,640
Speaker 1: see are one inch one to one and a half inch,

478
00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:16,359
Speaker 1: which you know, looking at the photos from what we saw,

479
00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:18,480
Speaker 1: that looks about right. They're about a one and a

480
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:21,280
Speaker 1: half inch and they're hard, so you know they're of

481
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:24,080
Speaker 1: a metal, So you're right. I mean, you know, you

482
00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:27,200
Speaker 1: say that all the time you're looking at the person

483
00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:30,320
Speaker 1: in that time period, and if they know what somebody

484
00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:33,480
Speaker 1: looks like who have been hit by a train, then

485
00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:35,720
Speaker 1: you kind of have to go with what they've seen.

486
00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:39,000
Speaker 1: A lot of that's what they think happened. So let

487
00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:42,480
Speaker 1: me let me tell you about the injuries. There's one

488
00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:44,960
Speaker 1: blow to the left side of his head. It fractured

489
00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:49,200
Speaker 1: his skull and ruptured his brain membrane. There is brain

490
00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:51,960
Speaker 1: matter and blood sprayed out of the one and a

491
00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:55,359
Speaker 1: half inch gash on his forehead. Another blow to the

492
00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:58,439
Speaker 1: right side of his head, which has fractured his skull,

493
00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:01,199
Speaker 1: and the corner says each one of these would have

494
00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:05,240
Speaker 1: killed him. There are other gashes as well, two parallel cuts.

495
00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:07,600
Speaker 1: They think all of this I believe is from the

496
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:11,720
Speaker 1: musket two parallel cuts, each measuring about an inch on

497
00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:15,520
Speaker 1: the upper back of a moss's head. A three inch

498
00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:18,720
Speaker 1: wound reaches from the first gash to about an inch

499
00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:20,879
Speaker 1: above his ear. There's a contusion that runs from his

500
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:24,080
Speaker 1: cheekbone to his temple on the right side. This was terrible.

501
00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:26,280
Speaker 1: This was an awful fight for him. I mean, that's

502
00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:28,560
Speaker 1: what I'm getting. His nose is shattered, and then there

503
00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:32,280
Speaker 1: are some gunshot wounds also, I can tell you about.

504
00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:35,560
Speaker 2: Well and right now, Yes, you got blunt force trauma.

505
00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:40,040
Speaker 2: And this sounds pretty typical when you see a significant

506
00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:43,840
Speaker 2: weapon like a musket being used as a blunt force

507
00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:46,800
Speaker 2: weapon because it's hot and this is a lot of energy,

508
00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:49,719
Speaker 2: and so yes, the skull fractures, you know, suggest that

509
00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:52,479
Speaker 2: these are significant blows. You know. My question would be,

510
00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:56,040
Speaker 2: as he receiving these blows while he's upright being confronted

511
00:28:56,080 --> 00:29:00,160
Speaker 2: by the offender, or these blows being delivered while he

512
00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:03,680
Speaker 2: is down on the ground and an essence, the offender

513
00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:04,720
Speaker 2: is finishing him off.

514
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:08,360
Speaker 1: Well, listen to the scenario, and the corner has a theory,

515
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:11,720
Speaker 1: and you give me your scenario first. So this is

516
00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:14,280
Speaker 1: what else they find. So, you know, the theory was

517
00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:15,720
Speaker 1: that he was on the bridge and now all of

518
00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:18,000
Speaker 1: a sudden he's faced down off the bridge and dead.

519
00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:21,200
Speaker 1: He's got all of these contusions all over the place.

520
00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:26,000
Speaker 1: He also suffered one bullet wound. A shot had entered

521
00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:29,920
Speaker 1: a Massa's right fore arm and traveled four inches, breaking

522
00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:33,160
Speaker 1: the small bone of the arm, and the bullet is

523
00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:36,960
Speaker 1: still embedded in Amasa's wrist. I guess it sounds like

524
00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:38,920
Speaker 1: it wasn't a musket, it was a pistol, and I

525
00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:41,360
Speaker 1: don't think those are interchangeable. I'm pretty sure those are

526
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:44,920
Speaker 1: not interchangeable. No, so you tell me what that sounds like,

527
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:47,240
Speaker 1: and that you know that is not, of course, not

528
00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:48,840
Speaker 1: what killed him, but somebody shot him.

529
00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:53,920
Speaker 2: Well, the shot into his arm sounds like a Massa

530
00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:58,720
Speaker 2: possibly assumed a defensive posture. You know, I had recognized

531
00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:00,960
Speaker 2: that there was a gun point to at him, you know,

532
00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:04,000
Speaker 2: put his arms. We see this, you know in shootings,

533
00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:09,400
Speaker 2: and now hands or forearms are being shot or sometimes

534
00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:12,200
Speaker 2: you have you know, sort of a covering, you know,

535
00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:15,200
Speaker 2: and then the bullet ends up going through the arm.

536
00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:20,640
Speaker 2: So that's kind of how I'm envisioning what you told

537
00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:24,080
Speaker 2: me about this shot to his forearm and the bullet

538
00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:26,880
Speaker 2: ending up in his wrist. Sounds like kind of a

539
00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:31,840
Speaker 2: weird he's maybe reflexively kind of covering himself up and

540
00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:35,000
Speaker 2: he gets shot and that bullet lodges in his arm,

541
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:40,360
Speaker 2: and they're saying that that's a pistol round that they recover,

542
00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:43,200
Speaker 2: and we have a pistol that is found at the scene.

543
00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:45,360
Speaker 1: Yep, second weapon, right.

544
00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:48,240
Speaker 2: It's a second firearm. Now eighteen forty three. Are people

545
00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:51,920
Speaker 2: just normally walking around with muskets and pistols, you know?

546
00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:56,720
Speaker 2: Or unusual? So? You know, so is this where I

547
00:30:56,760 --> 00:30:59,360
Speaker 2: mean you think about it. You got two guys walking

548
00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:02,400
Speaker 2: over this bridge and opposite directions, and one gives the

549
00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:05,040
Speaker 2: other a bad look, and now you got words exchange

550
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:07,320
Speaker 2: and they pull their guns out, and a Massa is

551
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:10,040
Speaker 2: a loser. You know. It could be as you know,

552
00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:16,280
Speaker 2: basic as that, but his victimology, high profile, wealth, everything else.

553
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:20,280
Speaker 2: It seems like there's probably more to the story than

554
00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:21,560
Speaker 2: just some random crime.

555
00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:26,440
Speaker 1: You're correct sir, There is a lot more to the story.

556
00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:30,960
Speaker 1: The corner thinks that Amasa was confronted on the bridge

557
00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:34,440
Speaker 1: and bludgeon from behind, knocked off the bridge and that

558
00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:38,000
Speaker 1: the person on the bridge had an accomplice who had

559
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:42,000
Speaker 1: that pistol. But then what would that mean because the

560
00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:45,800
Speaker 1: pistol is not what killed him, it's the blunt force trauma.

561
00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:47,959
Speaker 1: So what the guy jumped off the bridge and finished

562
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:51,000
Speaker 1: him off with this with this muzzle thing, That's.

563
00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:54,360
Speaker 2: What I'm envisioning. Yes, you know, so this confrontation, if

564
00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:58,200
Speaker 2: the confrontation occurred up on the bridge, a massa, it

565
00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:01,000
Speaker 2: sounds like put up enough of fight to where at

566
00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:04,600
Speaker 2: least if there's multiple offenders, one of the offenders got

567
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:07,719
Speaker 2: hurt to the point where now is leaving a sixty

568
00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:11,200
Speaker 2: to eighty foot long, you know, trail of dripped blood.

569
00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:14,440
Speaker 2: You know, so this is where now you know, taking

570
00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:16,440
Speaker 2: a look at a Massa's hands, you know this is

571
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:20,080
Speaker 2: do his hands suggest this you have bruising or you know,

572
00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:23,080
Speaker 2: like if you think about somebody hitting somebody in the mouth,

573
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:25,960
Speaker 2: the teeth will cut into the knuckles or you get

574
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:30,640
Speaker 2: bruises as somebody is is fighting torn fingernails. So that's

575
00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:33,160
Speaker 2: something I would be looking at to go, Yes, you know,

576
00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:36,920
Speaker 2: now you have you know, basically a physical fight. A Mass'

577
00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:39,720
Speaker 2: shot he could have been shot right away, but the

578
00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:42,120
Speaker 2: shot to his arm is not going to capacitate it.

579
00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:46,440
Speaker 2: He could still physically fight his offenders, but eventually maybe

580
00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:50,280
Speaker 2: there's a significant blow to his head, or he's pushed

581
00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:53,320
Speaker 2: off the bridge and an offender or both offender, you know,

582
00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:55,800
Speaker 2: get down to where his body is, and that's where

583
00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:58,640
Speaker 2: you get the all the the blows being inflicted by

584
00:32:58,640 --> 00:32:59,160
Speaker 2: the musket.

585
00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:00,920
Speaker 1: Well, and then we'll let me tell you what happens

586
00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:03,120
Speaker 1: with this pistol. You know, he's got that one shot

587
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:06,320
Speaker 1: that's still in his wrist. The jurors look at the

588
00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:09,160
Speaker 1: pistol on the scene and they find signs that it

589
00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:12,280
Speaker 1: had misfired the percussion. Now you're gonna have to tell

590
00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:15,680
Speaker 1: me about this. The percussion lock had been snapped, but

591
00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:19,400
Speaker 1: the gun is still loaded to the muzzle and the

592
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:22,600
Speaker 1: barrel is packed with snow and jammed with a wad

593
00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:25,280
Speaker 1: of paper. What is the percussion What does that mean?

594
00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:26,960
Speaker 1: Percussion lock had been snapped.

595
00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:30,720
Speaker 2: I don't know what the percussion lock is.

596
00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:30,840
Speaker 1: That.

597
00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:35,040
Speaker 2: So there would be with these black powder weapons. You've

598
00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:37,840
Speaker 2: got the black powder that goes down into the barrel.

599
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:40,720
Speaker 2: Then you've got the projectile that is then packed down

600
00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:43,320
Speaker 2: on top of that black powder. But then you have

601
00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:46,600
Speaker 2: what I think is called a percussion cap, and this

602
00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:51,040
Speaker 2: is in essence what the hammer hits that causes There's

603
00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:54,840
Speaker 2: that force of the hammer hitting the percussion cap is

604
00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:58,240
Speaker 2: what causes the ignition because it contains material sort of

605
00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:02,800
Speaker 2: like modern firearms the primary has. When the hammer strikes

606
00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:05,479
Speaker 2: the firing pin, the firing pin hits the primer and

607
00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:09,680
Speaker 2: that's what causes the gunpowder inside the cartridge case to burn,

608
00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:15,120
Speaker 2: which the gases forced the bullet out. So a percussion

609
00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:19,680
Speaker 2: guard sounds like it's a mechanism, part of the firing

610
00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:24,640
Speaker 2: mechanism that somehow protects the percussion cap until the trigger

611
00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:28,120
Speaker 2: is pulled. That's my guess. But this is where, like

612
00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:31,400
Speaker 2: as I always say, I have a little bit of knowledge,

613
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:33,839
Speaker 2: this is where I would be reaching out to a

614
00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:37,799
Speaker 2: firearms expert and go, tell me what you know about this,

615
00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:42,480
Speaker 2: and how do I interpret this particular type of weapon

616
00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:45,440
Speaker 2: within the circumstances and the evidence of this crime.

617
00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:48,239
Speaker 1: I guess, really, in some ways, I'm not sure this

618
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:51,440
Speaker 1: really matters. If a gun is jammed at a scene,

619
00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:55,920
Speaker 1: it's fired once. I guess that explains why he wasn't

620
00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:58,799
Speaker 1: shot again. Is that kind of the takeaway you have.

621
00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:01,200
Speaker 2: Well, it could be. You know, run with modern weapons,

622
00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:05,799
Speaker 2: we run into this all the time, especially especially when

623
00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:10,000
Speaker 2: somebody's got a pistol today and they get into a

624
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:12,880
Speaker 2: physical fight and they try to pull the trigger, but

625
00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:16,120
Speaker 2: they're not supporting that gun, and so the gun doesn't

626
00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:19,920
Speaker 2: cycle the normal way, and so now you can get

627
00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:25,279
Speaker 2: jams and misfires, if you will, with these older weapons,

628
00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:28,759
Speaker 2: with snow being packed up into the pistol. You know,

629
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:32,320
Speaker 2: is this where a massa and the offender are fighting

630
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:35,080
Speaker 2: over this gun, that gun gets you know, driven down

631
00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:39,080
Speaker 2: into the snow on the ground. You know, I don't

632
00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:40,880
Speaker 2: know enough to be able to say, well that in

633
00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:44,360
Speaker 2: and of itself that packed snow would prevent that pistol

634
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:48,640
Speaker 2: from firing. Probably could. But you mentioned that there's this

635
00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:51,160
Speaker 2: wat of paper that's stuffed up in there. That might

636
00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:55,520
Speaker 2: be something that is normally packed into these types of weapons.

637
00:35:56,480 --> 00:35:59,480
Speaker 1: So let me tell you about the rumors, because now

638
00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:01,600
Speaker 1: they're trying to look at motive. Who is this person?

639
00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:05,080
Speaker 1: There's no evidence of any of this, but they wonder

640
00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:09,280
Speaker 1: was a massa having an affair, had his mistress's husband

641
00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:12,279
Speaker 1: discovered it and killed him in revenge. There was a

642
00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:17,200
Speaker 1: disgruntled worker at the family mills, a guy named Big

643
00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:20,280
Speaker 1: Peter Dolan at the mill who had just been fired

644
00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:24,160
Speaker 1: for destroying a loom that had torn his nephew's fingers off.

645
00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:27,919
Speaker 1: So this all seems to be on the table, and they're,

646
00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:30,200
Speaker 1: you know, obviously going to look at the family. The

647
00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:32,760
Speaker 1: person who probably gains the most is his brother William,

648
00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:35,719
Speaker 1: who's this powerful senator and you know he was a

649
00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:38,880
Speaker 1: governor and so there's a lot going on with this

650
00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:40,440
Speaker 1: man and their servants too.

651
00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:43,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, right now, this is wide open. Like in

652
00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:45,759
Speaker 2: our one of our previous episodes that we just talked about,

653
00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:48,600
Speaker 2: I talked about how you can interpret offender behaviors at

654
00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:51,000
Speaker 2: the crime scene to get a sense as to who

655
00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:54,200
Speaker 2: the offender might be. Right now, there is not enough

656
00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:57,280
Speaker 2: information because there really isn't a lot of offender behavior

657
00:36:57,320 --> 00:36:59,719
Speaker 2: being expressed at this crime scene. This is where now

658
00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:03,279
Speaker 2: the big demology, you know, starts to become so much

659
00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:04,040
Speaker 2: more important.

660
00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:07,759
Speaker 1: Okay, well, let's get into this the villagers. There are

661
00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:10,120
Speaker 1: some villagers who think all of that is stupid. They

662
00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:13,080
Speaker 1: think this was a political assassination. So this is a

663
00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:15,240
Speaker 1: sign of the time. So get ready for a history lesson.

664
00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:19,040
Speaker 1: I've known this is a big one, okay, and you've

665
00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:21,560
Speaker 1: probably not heard of this man in particular, but he's

666
00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:26,399
Speaker 1: very famous. So two months before Amasa was murdered, there

667
00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:29,440
Speaker 1: is a well known political reformer who's actually popped up

668
00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:31,479
Speaker 1: in a couple of my books. His name is Thomas Door,

669
00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:36,239
Speaker 1: and he was arrested for treason. So the Spragues do

670
00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:39,200
Speaker 1: play a part in all of this. In eighteen forty one,

671
00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:43,600
Speaker 1: Thomas Dorr wanted more Rhode Islanders to be allowed to vote.

672
00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:47,799
Speaker 1: So at that point, only native born, meaning born in

673
00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:51,839
Speaker 1: the United States property owning white males had voting rights.

674
00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:54,680
Speaker 1: This is what the Spragues believed in, and this is

675
00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:57,920
Speaker 1: what they campaigned on both of these brothers. So Thomas

676
00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:03,240
Speaker 1: Door wanted to establish what was called universal white males suffrage.

677
00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:07,799
Speaker 1: After one year of residency, then you could vote. So

678
00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:11,720
Speaker 1: that meant, you know, that immigrants could vote. That meant

679
00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:16,040
Speaker 1: that Catholics could vote, because many of the immigrants were Catholics,

680
00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:19,040
Speaker 1: and this is not what the majority of white men

681
00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:21,440
Speaker 1: wanted in Rhode Island, you know, And this was a

682
00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:25,320
Speaker 1: time period where nobody trusted the Catholics. Everybody thought Catholicism

683
00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:29,680
Speaker 1: was very odd, and you know, Christ's blood and everything else.

684
00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:34,880
Speaker 1: The mistrust was there very much, and so nobody wanted

685
00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:38,399
Speaker 1: this to happen. So the Spragues kind of kept getting

686
00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:41,920
Speaker 1: in the way of Thomas Door in Rhode Island. But

687
00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:47,680
Speaker 1: now he is arrested for treason and he's imprisoned. But

688
00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:51,359
Speaker 1: it's the politicians, like the Spragues in Rhode Island who

689
00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:55,440
Speaker 1: did it. So he himself was in prison, Thomas Storr.

690
00:38:56,080 --> 00:39:00,320
Speaker 1: But there were an awful lot of supporters who hated

691
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:04,560
Speaker 1: the Spragus and the white male nativists just like them,

692
00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:07,720
Speaker 1: and there were a lot of Irish Catholics in Rhode Island.

693
00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:10,960
Speaker 1: So as I said, Dora is in state prison. He

694
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:12,920
Speaker 1: will not stay there forever. He'll be out within a

695
00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:16,279
Speaker 1: few years. But people do want to know if he

696
00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:20,719
Speaker 1: hired somebody like an Irish Catholic group to murder a

697
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:25,040
Speaker 1: Massa Sprague. So this sets the stage for the murder

698
00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:29,080
Speaker 1: to be penned on three Irish Catholic brothers, Nicholas, John

699
00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:32,400
Speaker 1: and William Gordon. So let me tell you about these guys.

700
00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:35,200
Speaker 1: Nicholas Gordon came first, and he's a little bit of

701
00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:37,839
Speaker 1: the center of the story. He arrived in Providence, Rhode

702
00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:40,800
Speaker 1: Island in the mid eighteen thirties, so just a decade earlier.

703
00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:43,879
Speaker 1: Unlike a lot of immigrants, he didn't work in the mill.

704
00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:47,680
Speaker 1: He opened a general store and sold groceries and candies.

705
00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:52,439
Speaker 1: Nicholas's general store was undercutting the prices of the mill

706
00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:57,000
Speaker 1: shops that all of the Spragus owned, and Nicholas made

707
00:39:57,000 --> 00:39:59,840
Speaker 1: a huge profit. Then he opened up a tavern and

708
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:02,600
Speaker 1: it was incredibly popular and all of the mill workers

709
00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:06,239
Speaker 1: would go to the tavern. The money that he made

710
00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:08,680
Speaker 1: was enough to bring over the two brothers who I

711
00:40:08,719 --> 00:40:12,400
Speaker 1: had mentioned were John and William and his mother from Ireland.

712
00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:15,320
Speaker 1: They came just a couple of months before the murder.

713
00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:21,200
Speaker 1: But the city council started to target Nicholas at the

714
00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:25,680
Speaker 1: request of Amasa Sprague and his brother, and they ended

715
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:30,880
Speaker 1: up revoking the tavern's liquor license. And the excuse was, well,

716
00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:34,719
Speaker 1: Nicholas Gordon is getting these guys drunk and sending them

717
00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:37,239
Speaker 1: back to the mills where they're getting their hands ripped

718
00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:39,880
Speaker 1: off and everything else. If I were Nicholas, I'd be pissed,

719
00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:41,680
Speaker 1: and this sounds like a great motive to me. He

720
00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:45,280
Speaker 1: had his liquor license and it shut down the whole tavern.

721
00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:49,439
Speaker 2: Sounds like he has direct motive versus being hired by

722
00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:50,200
Speaker 2: Thomas Dorr.

723
00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:54,640
Speaker 1: Yep, it could be a bonus. I hate that guy. Anyway,

724
00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:56,879
Speaker 1: I'm willing to do it, and it would help Thomas door.

725
00:40:57,000 --> 00:41:00,560
Speaker 1: But we'll see. So New Year's Day, the next day,

726
00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:03,440
Speaker 1: there's a town meeting and there's a reward of one

727
00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:07,880
Speaker 1: thousand dollars to anyone with information about the murder. One

728
00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:10,760
Speaker 1: thousand dollars was about forty three thousand dollars today.

729
00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:14,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, a significant amount of money. Now that you know,

730
00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:18,120
Speaker 2: the experience that we've seen in law enforcement with rewards,

731
00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:21,799
Speaker 2: particularly if they're pretty big rewards, is you get a

732
00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:25,840
Speaker 2: lot of false tips coming in because people are just

733
00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:28,839
Speaker 2: rolling the dice hoping they stumble across something in order

734
00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:31,319
Speaker 2: to get that money. So it can be very distracting

735
00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:32,200
Speaker 2: to the investigation.

736
00:41:32,719 --> 00:41:35,040
Speaker 1: Well, you're right on the nose because a lot of

737
00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:38,200
Speaker 1: villagers came forward to say that they had seen animosity

738
00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:43,280
Speaker 1: between Amasa and Nicholas over the tavern, which doesn't sound

739
00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:45,759
Speaker 1: like something that would be disputed. But you do have

740
00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:48,080
Speaker 1: an awful lot of people who want that money, and

741
00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:52,560
Speaker 1: there is a lot of anti immigrant, anti Catholic tension

742
00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:55,960
Speaker 1: in this town. There is no piece of physical evidence

743
00:41:56,400 --> 00:42:00,919
Speaker 1: linking Nicholas to this crime. It's you know, a well,

744
00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:04,440
Speaker 1: he was really mad and plus he's you know, an immigrant,

745
00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:06,279
Speaker 1: and so that would have been the motive. So at

746
00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:09,440
Speaker 1: six o'clock that night, the next day, after this man

747
00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:12,759
Speaker 1: is found, Nicholas and his brother John are arrested on

748
00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:16,200
Speaker 1: suspicion of murder. And for John, he just has a

749
00:42:16,239 --> 00:42:19,480
Speaker 1: bruise on his chin and that's it. But with the corner,

750
00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:22,640
Speaker 1: you know, saying there were two men, they focus in

751
00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:26,040
Speaker 1: on these two brothers, and you know, the next day,

752
00:42:26,680 --> 00:42:30,440
Speaker 1: the sheriff, who is a guy named high Sheriff Potter,

753
00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:34,200
Speaker 1: I'll just say Sheriff Potter, searched the Gordon's shop and

754
00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:37,719
Speaker 1: upstairs apartment and they find a tin box and a

755
00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:42,799
Speaker 1: canister that contained powder as in gunpowder. Dirty clothes. There

756
00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:45,520
Speaker 1: is a wet blue coat, a wet pair of pants,

757
00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:49,480
Speaker 1: wet boots. The elbow of one shirt is stained with

758
00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:52,200
Speaker 1: what appears to be blood. In its pocket is a

759
00:42:52,239 --> 00:42:55,880
Speaker 1: grocery bill. In the pocket of a dark stained vest.

760
00:42:56,320 --> 00:43:00,120
Speaker 1: The party discovers caps in flint and six pistol balls

761
00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:04,400
Speaker 1: and powder wrapped in brown paper, and a few drops

762
00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:07,920
Speaker 1: of blood are present on the undershet of the bed

763
00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:11,680
Speaker 1: near the head. Now, let me say this, about eighteen

764
00:43:11,719 --> 00:43:14,800
Speaker 1: forty four, they could tell whether this stuff was blood.

765
00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:17,120
Speaker 1: They could not tell if it was human blood or

766
00:43:17,239 --> 00:43:20,000
Speaker 1: you know, dog blood or anything, but they would have

767
00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:24,080
Speaker 1: been able to identify blood. Twenty years later, they will

768
00:43:24,120 --> 00:43:26,759
Speaker 1: know how to identify the difference between human blood and

769
00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:30,040
Speaker 1: animal blood. They did not test any of this, so

770
00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:32,040
Speaker 1: we don't know if this stuff was blood or who's

771
00:43:32,080 --> 00:43:34,840
Speaker 1: blood it was. But this is what they find. They also,

772
00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:38,360
Speaker 1: in the attict find a bayonet and a sword. Quite frankly,

773
00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:40,520
Speaker 1: I mean, this is a laundry list of what pretty

774
00:43:40,600 --> 00:43:43,120
Speaker 1: much any family in the eighteen forties probably would have

775
00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:46,600
Speaker 1: had in their house. And I know the insinuation is,

776
00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:48,759
Speaker 1: you know, the clothes are wet and he must have

777
00:43:48,760 --> 00:43:51,920
Speaker 1: gotten into the quote unquote river. But again, I mean,

778
00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:54,400
Speaker 1: it's snow on the ground. That's what they have.

779
00:43:54,680 --> 00:44:00,320
Speaker 2: Yet I think it's unimpressive in terms of trying to

780
00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:03,080
Speaker 2: tie any of that evidence back to the crime scene.

781
00:44:03,080 --> 00:44:04,600
Speaker 2: I mean, that's ultimately what we have to do, is

782
00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:09,960
Speaker 2: you're trying to make associations to connect these suspects to

783
00:44:10,120 --> 00:44:13,040
Speaker 2: the crime scene, to the victim, et cetera. And these

784
00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:17,640
Speaker 2: items right now, this were the interviews of Nicholas and John.

785
00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:20,360
Speaker 2: You know, it's like, well, do they have an explanation

786
00:44:20,480 --> 00:44:25,799
Speaker 2: for the blood the blood staining on the elbow of

787
00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:29,720
Speaker 2: the clothing. Is that a wound that they can see

788
00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:32,680
Speaker 2: a fresh wound on either of the suspects? Does that

789
00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:36,239
Speaker 2: wound appear to be something that could bleed enough to

790
00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:40,200
Speaker 2: leave a sixty to eighty foot long trail of dripped blood.

791
00:44:40,520 --> 00:44:43,759
Speaker 2: You know, so there's a lot more digging that needs

792
00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:46,440
Speaker 2: to be done to figure out if anything that they

793
00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:49,760
Speaker 2: found during this search has any relevance to the crime.

794
00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:52,640
Speaker 1: Well, let me ask you. Let's just say there is

795
00:44:52,680 --> 00:44:55,960
Speaker 1: an injury, and it's an elbow injury, but that's the

796
00:44:55,960 --> 00:44:58,400
Speaker 1: only injury one of these guys has. Let's say, Nicholas,

797
00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:02,000
Speaker 1: is that enough Is there enough blood in that area

798
00:45:02,040 --> 00:45:05,200
Speaker 1: of your arm to actually drip sixty to eighty drops

799
00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:06,720
Speaker 1: up a trail that's visible.

800
00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:11,040
Speaker 2: Well, it's not just sixty eighty drops, it's dripped blood

801
00:45:11,239 --> 00:45:14,600
Speaker 2: that goes for sixty to eighty feet along the trail.

802
00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:15,440
Speaker 1: Oh, that's true.

803
00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:19,840
Speaker 2: So you know, of course, you can have an injury

804
00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:22,960
Speaker 2: to the elbow that can bleed significantly, you know. Now

805
00:45:23,080 --> 00:45:26,040
Speaker 2: dripped blood. This is where we have no information in

806
00:45:26,120 --> 00:45:30,719
Speaker 2: terms of really how much blood is present in this

807
00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:35,040
Speaker 2: dripped trail, you know, but generally when you see dripped blood,

808
00:45:35,120 --> 00:45:37,759
Speaker 2: oftentimes you'll you'll have blood. Let's say it there's an

809
00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:41,480
Speaker 2: elbow injury, and now it's as you're walking that bleeding

810
00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:45,120
Speaker 2: is flowing down your arms and dripping off of your hand,

811
00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:50,040
Speaker 2: you know, So that's a possibility to create that type

812
00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:54,440
Speaker 2: of trail. Does one of these suspects actually have, you know,

813
00:45:54,680 --> 00:45:58,520
Speaker 2: a recent wound, because they're being arrested within a day

814
00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:03,480
Speaker 2: two days, you know, they're going to have a fresh wound,

815
00:46:03,920 --> 00:46:06,840
Speaker 2: and then what is their explanation for the blood inside

816
00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:09,400
Speaker 2: the residents? You know, And it could be yeah, you know,

817
00:46:09,480 --> 00:46:12,239
Speaker 2: I was working in the yard and I hit my

818
00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:15,319
Speaker 2: elbow and I was bleeding. You know. So right now

819
00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:20,160
Speaker 2: this is just all very superficial. There needs to be more.

820
00:46:20,480 --> 00:46:23,880
Speaker 1: Well, let's keep going. There is a group of concerned citizens.

821
00:46:23,880 --> 00:46:26,439
Speaker 1: We've talked about these people. They never do any good

822
00:46:26,560 --> 00:46:29,919
Speaker 1: almost ever. They go to the crime scene and they're

823
00:46:29,960 --> 00:46:33,920
Speaker 1: chomping around. The snow is melting, but there's a guy

824
00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:38,800
Speaker 1: named Walter Beattie. He's the head of this vigilante I

825
00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:41,719
Speaker 1: don't know what to call them group. They're able to

826
00:46:41,760 --> 00:46:45,239
Speaker 1: see shoe tracks and paul prints like a dog. They

827
00:46:45,239 --> 00:46:49,080
Speaker 1: follow the tracks from the bridge across dire pond, through

828
00:46:49,120 --> 00:46:52,799
Speaker 1: the swamp and to the Gordon's apartment, and the link

829
00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:56,080
Speaker 1: of the tracks matches the soul of the boots that

830
00:46:56,120 --> 00:46:59,840
Speaker 1: they find an apartment, except the width of the track

831
00:47:00,239 --> 00:47:03,560
Speaker 1: are about an eighth of an inch wider. But still

832
00:47:03,560 --> 00:47:05,920
Speaker 1: they think this has proof positive that the Gordons are

833
00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:08,399
Speaker 1: the ones who did this. Can you really track things

834
00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:12,400
Speaker 1: through a swamp, I mean melted snow, a swamp, across

835
00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:13,720
Speaker 1: the bridge through a pond.

836
00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:17,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, that seems a little convenient, I guess is the

837
00:47:17,640 --> 00:47:20,200
Speaker 2: way to put it. When you can most certainly have

838
00:47:20,560 --> 00:47:23,560
Speaker 2: Let's say at the crime scene, you have a shoe impression,

839
00:47:24,560 --> 00:47:27,680
Speaker 2: and you can see how as you follow the direction

840
00:47:27,840 --> 00:47:32,000
Speaker 2: of that, you know the trail of shoe impressions. There

841
00:47:32,040 --> 00:47:35,359
Speaker 2: will be moments in time in which there are surfaces

842
00:47:35,400 --> 00:47:38,680
Speaker 2: that that person was walking across that doesn't leave any impressions,

843
00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:41,200
Speaker 2: and then you can pick up that trail on the

844
00:47:41,239 --> 00:47:43,680
Speaker 2: other side of it. That's where you know, looking at

845
00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:48,600
Speaker 2: the swamp, you know, what were they really seeing in

846
00:47:48,719 --> 00:47:51,120
Speaker 2: order to try to track something through that is there

847
00:47:51,239 --> 00:47:56,439
Speaker 2: a lot of just impressions in mud without having any

848
00:47:56,560 --> 00:47:59,799
Speaker 2: details of let's say, the soul pattern of this particular

849
00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:04,200
Speaker 2: and then you know, from my guess is that you

850
00:48:04,239 --> 00:48:07,320
Speaker 2: know today, of course we have all sorts of different

851
00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:13,400
Speaker 2: types of outsold designs, right, all sorts versus back in

852
00:48:13,440 --> 00:48:17,279
Speaker 2: eighteen forty three, I bet most people probably had the

853
00:48:17,360 --> 00:48:22,000
Speaker 2: same boots, you know, with the same types of soul patterns.

854
00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:25,520
Speaker 2: So that's where now the veracity of the tracking aspect,

855
00:48:25,760 --> 00:48:28,960
Speaker 2: you know, gets questioned. From my perspective, what.

856
00:48:28,960 --> 00:48:33,080
Speaker 1: If Nicholas had walked there, you know, the day before earlier,

857
00:48:33,239 --> 00:48:35,839
Speaker 1: you know, who knows. Okay, this is what I need

858
00:48:35,880 --> 00:48:38,640
Speaker 1: to remind you of. So when we talked about that

859
00:48:38,719 --> 00:48:43,080
Speaker 1: elbow bleeding, it was a shirt that they saw was

860
00:48:43,120 --> 00:48:46,360
Speaker 1: stained with what appeared to be blood. While they're tramping

861
00:48:46,480 --> 00:48:51,840
Speaker 1: through this citizens group and they're trying to follow these tracks,

862
00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:55,120
Speaker 1: they find two significant pieces of evidence. In the thicket

863
00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:58,720
Speaker 1: on the east side of the swamp. They find a short,

864
00:48:59,440 --> 00:49:03,920
Speaker 1: well worn blue coat. There appears to be dried blood

865
00:49:04,280 --> 00:49:09,399
Speaker 1: on the worn out right elbow. It's exposed lining and

866
00:49:09,480 --> 00:49:12,359
Speaker 1: on the breast of the coat. So if they're right

867
00:49:12,480 --> 00:49:14,399
Speaker 1: and no one's lying and trying to set up this

868
00:49:14,600 --> 00:49:18,760
Speaker 1: Irish Catholic guy, then that is the jacket that matches

869
00:49:18,880 --> 00:49:23,040
Speaker 1: the bloody elbowed shirt at Nicholas's house. And then let

870
00:49:23,040 --> 00:49:27,520
Speaker 1: me tell you this. There is wax and black hair

871
00:49:28,120 --> 00:49:31,680
Speaker 1: stuck to it. On one of the coat pockets. There

872
00:49:31,760 --> 00:49:35,160
Speaker 1: contains a box of powder, which has to be shooting powder.

873
00:49:35,520 --> 00:49:38,560
Speaker 2: Obviously, if you find bloody clothing on the escape route

874
00:49:38,600 --> 00:49:43,520
Speaker 2: of the offender, I mean that's significant. The location of

875
00:49:43,960 --> 00:49:47,080
Speaker 2: the blood staining on the blue coat being consistent with

876
00:49:47,320 --> 00:49:50,560
Speaker 2: the apparent blood staining on the shirt found within the

877
00:49:50,600 --> 00:49:54,759
Speaker 2: Gordon's residence. I mean maybe you know. The frustrating part

878
00:49:54,800 --> 00:49:56,560
Speaker 2: for me, of course, is well, this would be easy

879
00:49:56,600 --> 00:49:59,000
Speaker 2: to answer, you know, let's just do DNA on it, right,

880
00:49:59,680 --> 00:50:03,480
Speaker 2: you know, back then it's like, well it's consistent, but

881
00:50:03,600 --> 00:50:08,160
Speaker 2: you still, even the blue coat, you can't say that

882
00:50:08,160 --> 00:50:12,920
Speaker 2: that blue coat was worn by the killer or the

883
00:50:13,040 --> 00:50:18,000
Speaker 2: killers of a massa. You still have to connect it

884
00:50:18,120 --> 00:50:21,839
Speaker 2: back to the actual homicide. And this is where I'd

885
00:50:21,880 --> 00:50:25,080
Speaker 2: be going. Okay, so I know that a Maasa was

886
00:50:25,120 --> 00:50:28,560
Speaker 2: bludgeon multiple times in the head, and based off of

887
00:50:28,640 --> 00:50:33,000
Speaker 2: what you described, the doctors saying, you know, where you

888
00:50:33,200 --> 00:50:37,600
Speaker 2: have blood and brain matter that is being exposed, and

889
00:50:37,640 --> 00:50:41,720
Speaker 2: you're probably having you know, blood and potentially brain matter

890
00:50:41,840 --> 00:50:46,640
Speaker 2: being spattered. You know, does this coat show that type

891
00:50:46,680 --> 00:50:50,319
Speaker 2: of blood pattern, if you will, some spatter pattern, as

892
00:50:50,360 --> 00:50:52,719
Speaker 2: this is the offender that is yielding let's say, the

893
00:50:52,800 --> 00:50:56,880
Speaker 2: musket while he's giving these blows to the offender. So

894
00:50:57,680 --> 00:51:00,080
Speaker 2: the blood on the blue coat, the blood on the

895
00:51:00,120 --> 00:51:05,520
Speaker 2: shirt from the Gordon residence, it's something, but it's still

896
00:51:05,560 --> 00:51:08,920
Speaker 2: not connecting back to the actual homicide. Not yet.

897
00:51:09,160 --> 00:51:13,280
Speaker 1: Well, here's another place where DNA would be supremely helpful.

898
00:51:13,560 --> 00:51:15,880
Speaker 1: Just a little bit further past the coat, they find

899
00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:19,240
Speaker 1: a gun, which is the musket broken off at the breach.

900
00:51:19,800 --> 00:51:23,839
Speaker 1: The barrel is bent and it's not loaded, and the

901
00:51:23,880 --> 00:51:26,360
Speaker 1: lock is gone and covered with blood.

902
00:51:26,920 --> 00:51:29,440
Speaker 2: Now you got the murder weapon. So it's the close

903
00:51:29,480 --> 00:51:32,200
Speaker 2: association with the murder weapon to the blue coat definitely

904
00:51:32,320 --> 00:51:37,000
Speaker 2: raises the association of the blue coat to the homicide.

905
00:51:37,440 --> 00:51:40,600
Speaker 2: So now it's a matter of whose coat is this,

906
00:51:40,760 --> 00:51:45,040
Speaker 2: whose musket is this? And how do they prove that

907
00:51:45,239 --> 00:51:46,400
Speaker 2: In eighteen forty three.

908
00:51:46,600 --> 00:51:49,439
Speaker 1: Well, let's move along and let me tell you about

909
00:51:49,480 --> 00:51:52,680
Speaker 1: what happens at the end of the day. William Gordon

910
00:51:53,080 --> 00:51:56,080
Speaker 1: is arrested, so he's the third brother. So you have

911
00:51:56,239 --> 00:52:01,560
Speaker 1: Nicholas and John arrested, the third brother arrested, the mother

912
00:52:01,800 --> 00:52:08,640
Speaker 1: Ellen arrested, and another brother named Robert arrested. I'm going

913
00:52:08,680 --> 00:52:10,800
Speaker 1: to try not to laugh at this. The dog is arrested.

914
00:52:11,160 --> 00:52:13,880
Speaker 1: What And I looked this up. It happened in the

915
00:52:13,920 --> 00:52:16,800
Speaker 1: eighteen hundreds and the seventeen hundred they put animals on trial,

916
00:52:17,160 --> 00:52:18,840
Speaker 1: like actual trials.

917
00:52:18,760 --> 00:52:20,880
Speaker 2: The paw prints and snow by the bridge.

918
00:52:21,040 --> 00:52:24,319
Speaker 1: Yes, I mean, I know, I pulled this whole thing

919
00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:27,279
Speaker 1: up for you. I'll be brief, and actually, you know,

920
00:52:27,400 --> 00:52:30,759
Speaker 1: it turns from to me I thought was amusing at first,

921
00:52:30,760 --> 00:52:33,239
Speaker 1: but you know, they would be executed for things they did.

922
00:52:33,320 --> 00:52:37,160
Speaker 1: It could have been, you know, hurting a sheep or something.

923
00:52:37,680 --> 00:52:41,759
Speaker 1: But in the early eighteen hundreds, you know, there was

924
00:52:41,960 --> 00:52:45,080
Speaker 1: a different understanding of the law and animals. They could

925
00:52:45,120 --> 00:52:49,400
Speaker 1: be charged with murder, property damage, even being a nuisance,

926
00:52:50,280 --> 00:52:53,480
Speaker 1: and they actually had human witnesses. They had human witnesses,

927
00:52:53,480 --> 00:52:56,560
Speaker 1: and they had attorneys and judges. You know, and they

928
00:52:56,600 --> 00:53:00,799
Speaker 1: could face execution like hanging or being burned alive, exiled.

929
00:53:01,440 --> 00:53:05,160
Speaker 1: So you know this went out the door eventually. But

930
00:53:05,440 --> 00:53:07,520
Speaker 1: in this case, the dog is put under arrest.

931
00:53:07,760 --> 00:53:13,239
Speaker 2: Also, that's just stupid. It's like, come on, So, I mean,

932
00:53:13,320 --> 00:53:17,759
Speaker 2: it really underscores just how silly you know some of

933
00:53:17,800 --> 00:53:23,640
Speaker 2: these laws were. So was the dog standing guard while

934
00:53:23,640 --> 00:53:26,480
Speaker 2: Amasa was killed, and now the dog is an accessory

935
00:53:26,600 --> 00:53:29,560
Speaker 2: to the murder. I mean it's it's like I'd like

936
00:53:29,640 --> 00:53:34,960
Speaker 2: to see, you know, the investigator's affidavit supporting probable cause

937
00:53:35,000 --> 00:53:38,000
Speaker 2: to arrest this canine. I know that's.

938
00:53:37,920 --> 00:53:42,120
Speaker 1: Laughable, silly to you, laughable to you, not to the dog. No,

939
00:53:42,680 --> 00:53:45,000
Speaker 1: So they arrested one of Nicholas's friends. Man, they just

940
00:53:45,120 --> 00:53:47,120
Speaker 1: round up all of the Irish kids in this town.

941
00:53:47,800 --> 00:53:51,680
Speaker 1: And Ellen and Robert are let go later on, and

942
00:53:51,960 --> 00:53:55,120
Speaker 1: so is the friend. And then my question was what

943
00:53:55,160 --> 00:53:57,560
Speaker 1: about the freaking dog? Did the dog get out? I'm

944
00:53:57,560 --> 00:54:00,840
Speaker 1: assuming the dog's okay, but they had a did the dog?

945
00:54:01,080 --> 00:54:04,080
Speaker 2: So basically they arrested an entire family.

946
00:54:04,280 --> 00:54:07,960
Speaker 1: And a friend and a dog. Correct. So this gets serious,

947
00:54:08,320 --> 00:54:14,680
Speaker 1: especially because William Sprague, the third who is Amasa's brother,

948
00:54:15,160 --> 00:54:18,960
Speaker 1: resigns from the Senate US Senate. He resigns to watch

949
00:54:18,960 --> 00:54:22,920
Speaker 1: over the family business and over the investigation. John and

950
00:54:22,960 --> 00:54:25,880
Speaker 1: William are indicted for murder and they're scheduled to be

951
00:54:25,920 --> 00:54:30,799
Speaker 1: tried together in the Rhode Island Supreme Court. Nicholas is

952
00:54:31,160 --> 00:54:35,400
Speaker 1: considered the mastermind, and he's indicted as an accessory before

953
00:54:35,480 --> 00:54:39,840
Speaker 1: the fact and scheduled to be tried after John and William.

954
00:54:39,960 --> 00:54:42,279
Speaker 1: So what is that? That means they think John and

955
00:54:42,320 --> 00:54:44,399
Speaker 1: William were the ones who did the killing, but that

956
00:54:44,760 --> 00:54:47,920
Speaker 1: Nicholas is an accessory because he was the planner only.

957
00:54:48,160 --> 00:54:49,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what it sounds like to me. You know,

958
00:54:49,800 --> 00:54:52,080
Speaker 2: if they're indicting John and William, I think they're putting

959
00:54:52,120 --> 00:54:55,640
Speaker 2: John and William out there on the bridge with a maasa.

960
00:54:55,840 --> 00:55:00,160
Speaker 2: And obviously Nicholas had motive with you know, this whole

961
00:55:00,200 --> 00:55:04,800
Speaker 2: business conflict that he had with a masa. Yeah, so

962
00:55:04,920 --> 00:55:06,640
Speaker 2: that is what it sounds like to me.

963
00:55:07,080 --> 00:55:10,160
Speaker 1: Okay, Well, you know, I guess they didn't do their

964
00:55:10,200 --> 00:55:13,799
Speaker 1: research because William, one of the two so called murderers,

965
00:55:14,000 --> 00:55:17,040
Speaker 1: had an alibi, the best alibi ever. He was in

966
00:55:17,120 --> 00:55:20,240
Speaker 1: mass when this all happened. He was in a Catholic

967
00:55:20,320 --> 00:55:25,640
Speaker 1: Mass in Providence, a gazillion witnesses, including priests, saw him.

968
00:55:26,040 --> 00:55:28,840
Speaker 1: Even though William does have an alibi, he's still going

969
00:55:28,920 --> 00:55:31,440
Speaker 1: to go on trial. Unfortunately, his brother John does not

970
00:55:31,560 --> 00:55:35,360
Speaker 1: have a good alibi, so John goes it alone and

971
00:55:35,480 --> 00:55:39,000
Speaker 1: Nicholas will go it alone in his own trial. Before

972
00:55:39,040 --> 00:55:42,080
Speaker 1: we talk about the evidence, which there's some really good

973
00:55:42,200 --> 00:55:44,880
Speaker 1: interesting evidence here, let me just kind of set up

974
00:55:44,880 --> 00:55:47,600
Speaker 1: the politics of this. So one more history lesson, probably

975
00:55:47,680 --> 00:55:50,799
Speaker 1: not just one more, but one more. So we've got

976
00:55:50,880 --> 00:55:54,239
Speaker 1: a defense team of two, and we've got prosecutors who

977
00:55:54,360 --> 00:55:59,520
Speaker 1: are political opponents, and they take this very personally because

978
00:55:59,719 --> 00:56:03,160
Speaker 1: these prosecutors and these defense attorneys ran against each other

979
00:56:03,320 --> 00:56:06,200
Speaker 1: for attorney General and only one of them won. One

980
00:56:06,200 --> 00:56:09,280
Speaker 1: of the prosecutors, so the defense attorneys hate the prosecutors.

981
00:56:09,800 --> 00:56:13,600
Speaker 1: The prosecutors are Whigs, which is a political party who

982
00:56:13,640 --> 00:56:17,960
Speaker 1: is fervently against Thomas Dorr, who you know, wants immigrants

983
00:56:17,960 --> 00:56:20,480
Speaker 1: to have rights too, the immigrants who are fighting for

984
00:56:20,640 --> 00:56:24,120
Speaker 1: voting rights and for the respect of the Catholics. The

985
00:56:24,160 --> 00:56:28,279
Speaker 1: Whigs don't want any of this. So Amasa's brother is

986
00:56:28,320 --> 00:56:31,239
Speaker 1: calling the shots over these prosecutors to a point where

987
00:56:31,239 --> 00:56:35,200
Speaker 1: he appoints essentially the prosecutors because he's a Senator of

988
00:56:35,480 --> 00:56:40,399
Speaker 1: Rhode Island. The defenses led by Thomas Door supporters, and

989
00:56:40,800 --> 00:56:43,600
Speaker 1: you know this is probably not good news just in general,

990
00:56:43,760 --> 00:56:46,879
Speaker 1: the political fight that happens between all these these four men.

991
00:56:47,920 --> 00:56:52,800
Speaker 1: So the judge presiding over the case is Chief Justice

992
00:56:53,239 --> 00:56:56,719
Speaker 1: Job Durfey. Durfy shows up in my book for the

993
00:56:57,000 --> 00:57:00,560
Speaker 1: Center's all about because the Derfeys were very famous in Tiverton,

994
00:57:00,640 --> 00:57:05,000
Speaker 1: Rhode Island, which is now Full River, Massachusetts. And Durfey

995
00:57:05,360 --> 00:57:09,080
Speaker 1: was anti Door, anti immigrant. He was a Whig, and

996
00:57:09,160 --> 00:57:11,920
Speaker 1: he said, listen to this, Paul. He encourages the jury,

997
00:57:12,280 --> 00:57:15,440
Speaker 1: which includes no Irish or Catholic men, to give greater

998
00:57:15,719 --> 00:57:20,040
Speaker 1: credence to testimonies from the native born witnesses than from

999
00:57:20,040 --> 00:57:20,760
Speaker 1: the immigrants.

1000
00:57:21,080 --> 00:57:23,760
Speaker 2: Judges did that, there's no prejudice there.

1001
00:57:23,920 --> 00:57:27,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, in my book, that was that in nineteen fifty

1002
00:57:27,240 --> 00:57:30,160
Speaker 1: three about the Great Smog when the serial killer I

1003
00:57:30,160 --> 00:57:34,360
Speaker 1: profiled went on trial. Afterwards, you know, in closing statements,

1004
00:57:34,440 --> 00:57:38,000
Speaker 1: the judge essentially said, you need to believe the prosecutor,

1005
00:57:38,040 --> 00:57:41,320
Speaker 1: not the defense attorney gave you a terrible case, go

1006
00:57:41,400 --> 00:57:43,560
Speaker 1: do the right thing. So, of course it was predictably

1007
00:57:43,600 --> 00:57:47,600
Speaker 1: a very short deliberation with this jury. Yes, okay. Murder

1008
00:57:47,640 --> 00:57:50,760
Speaker 1: trial starts April. The brothers say they are not guilty.

1009
00:57:50,800 --> 00:57:54,720
Speaker 1: They plead not guilty. The prosecution argues that Nicholas pressured

1010
00:57:55,160 --> 00:57:58,960
Speaker 1: John and William to murder Amasa because of the liquor license.

1011
00:57:59,440 --> 00:58:02,760
Speaker 1: So nobody at this point is acknowledging the possibility that

1012
00:58:02,800 --> 00:58:05,640
Speaker 1: Thomas dor sent these three brothers out to be hitman

1013
00:58:06,200 --> 00:58:09,120
Speaker 1: to take out a political rival. And you know, a

1014
00:58:09,120 --> 00:58:12,720
Speaker 1: lot of this is based on dubious witness testimony. But

1015
00:58:13,280 --> 00:58:18,160
Speaker 1: I think the most damning argument here is that when

1016
00:58:18,280 --> 00:58:21,600
Speaker 1: the investigators go to the store, the brothers own the store,

1017
00:58:21,680 --> 00:58:23,600
Speaker 1: the general store, and then they live above it, the

1018
00:58:23,640 --> 00:58:26,960
Speaker 1: whole family. When they go, they're searching for a gun,

1019
00:58:27,480 --> 00:58:30,000
Speaker 1: and now both guns are president at the scene. It

1020
00:58:30,040 --> 00:58:32,560
Speaker 1: sounds like, but Nicholas is I have a missing My

1021
00:58:32,640 --> 00:58:35,880
Speaker 1: gun is missing, And so they immediately say, if your

1022
00:58:35,920 --> 00:58:37,800
Speaker 1: gun is gone, then your gun is the one that

1023
00:58:37,800 --> 00:58:40,400
Speaker 1: we found under the bridge or the musket one of those.

1024
00:58:41,000 --> 00:58:43,800
Speaker 1: What actually happened is one of the other brothers got

1025
00:58:43,840 --> 00:58:48,400
Speaker 1: scared and they hid Nicholas's gun under the floorboards, and

1026
00:58:48,440 --> 00:58:50,720
Speaker 1: nobody would cop to it. Nobody would say Oh, yeah,

1027
00:58:50,720 --> 00:58:52,920
Speaker 1: we hit his gun. They were just scared, is what.

1028
00:58:53,200 --> 00:58:57,360
Speaker 1: That's what they say. Okay, the prosecutor produces witnesses that

1029
00:58:57,520 --> 00:59:01,560
Speaker 1: testify that they had seen John two days before the

1030
00:59:01,720 --> 00:59:05,280
Speaker 1: murder with this gun. Now the gun is missing. It

1031
00:59:05,360 --> 00:59:09,320
Speaker 1: must be missing, according to the prosecutors, because the Gordons

1032
00:59:09,320 --> 00:59:12,840
Speaker 1: couldn't admit that it had shattered. I guess they're talking

1033
00:59:12,840 --> 00:59:16,920
Speaker 1: about the musket had shattered while they were bludgeoning a Maasa.

1034
00:59:17,440 --> 00:59:21,560
Speaker 1: And you know what's interesting, William doesn't disclose that the brother.

1035
00:59:21,760 --> 00:59:24,240
Speaker 1: He doesn't disclose that he had hidden the weapon or

1036
00:59:24,280 --> 00:59:26,880
Speaker 1: that the weapon was available. I don't know why, but

1037
00:59:26,960 --> 00:59:27,480
Speaker 1: he doesn't.

1038
00:59:27,880 --> 00:59:30,760
Speaker 2: My thought is is that these guns probably are not

1039
00:59:31,200 --> 00:59:34,720
Speaker 2: They're not registered. There's no serial numbers associated with them,

1040
00:59:35,120 --> 00:59:38,440
Speaker 2: so you almost have to rely upon other people saying

1041
00:59:38,760 --> 00:59:42,959
Speaker 2: I recognize that gun, that's Nicholas's gun or William's gun,

1042
00:59:43,120 --> 00:59:46,280
Speaker 2: versus having some paperwork proving what gun they had.

1043
00:59:46,640 --> 00:59:49,480
Speaker 1: So I'll tell you a funny story. So just to

1044
00:59:49,520 --> 00:59:52,480
Speaker 1: get this out of the way, the serial numbers on

1045
00:59:52,520 --> 00:59:55,640
Speaker 1: guns were not mandatory until nineteen sixty eight, and it

1046
00:59:55,720 --> 00:59:58,280
Speaker 1: was sporadic. There were before that, there were you know,

1047
00:59:58,320 --> 01:00:00,920
Speaker 1: Colton Winchester would put cereal in nons number on guns,

1048
01:00:00,920 --> 01:00:03,480
Speaker 1: but it wasn't lost, so not everybody did it, and

1049
01:00:03,520 --> 01:00:07,040
Speaker 1: that's why the defense said, you cannot prove that that

1050
01:00:07,160 --> 01:00:10,560
Speaker 1: gun belonged to any of the Gordons because you can't

1051
01:00:10,560 --> 01:00:12,720
Speaker 1: trace it to them, there's no serial number on it.

1052
01:00:13,480 --> 01:00:18,800
Speaker 1: An American Sherlock Heinrich was investigating the case of there

1053
01:00:18,880 --> 01:00:22,040
Speaker 1: was a train robbery and he had a gun that

1054
01:00:22,120 --> 01:00:25,360
Speaker 1: had been recovered and the robbers had scratched off the

1055
01:00:25,360 --> 01:00:28,640
Speaker 1: serial numbers, so you can identify it. He knew. Heinrich

1056
01:00:28,720 --> 01:00:33,240
Speaker 1: knew that this cult weapon in particular because it had

1057
01:00:33,280 --> 01:00:36,560
Speaker 1: been used in robberies in the past, cult started printing

1058
01:00:37,240 --> 01:00:40,000
Speaker 1: another serial number on the inside of the barrel so

1059
01:00:40,040 --> 01:00:42,800
Speaker 1: he could look and identify and find real serial number

1060
01:00:42,880 --> 01:00:43,680
Speaker 1: inside the barrel.

1061
01:00:43,920 --> 01:00:48,400
Speaker 2: I've actually done serial number restorations really hot in my career,

1062
01:00:48,480 --> 01:00:51,960
Speaker 2: where you have stolen guns in which you know the

1063
01:00:52,280 --> 01:00:56,520
Speaker 2: serial numbers have been defaced in a variety of different ways,

1064
01:00:56,960 --> 01:01:01,200
Speaker 2: and there's a variety of chemicals typically asked that will

1065
01:01:01,920 --> 01:01:06,200
Speaker 2: preferentially react where the serial number had been stamped into

1066
01:01:06,360 --> 01:01:12,640
Speaker 2: the gun, and so by utilizing a process of both

1067
01:01:12,720 --> 01:01:16,320
Speaker 2: polishing as well as this chemical etching, you can sometimes

1068
01:01:16,560 --> 01:01:20,360
Speaker 2: bring up the serial number even though it's been completely

1069
01:01:20,400 --> 01:01:25,400
Speaker 2: defaced from the firearm. It's a very very common service

1070
01:01:25,720 --> 01:01:27,560
Speaker 2: that crime labs do across the nation.

1071
01:01:28,720 --> 01:01:33,040
Speaker 1: Well, that's super interesting because you know, I have heard

1072
01:01:33,040 --> 01:01:35,880
Speaker 1: that so many times, scraping off the serial number and

1073
01:01:36,200 --> 01:01:38,920
Speaker 1: how it works. It doesn't work, and so they are

1074
01:01:38,960 --> 01:01:42,000
Speaker 1: not able to definitively say that the Gordons own this gun.

1075
01:01:42,120 --> 01:01:45,360
Speaker 1: William for some reason is not saying I hid the gun,

1076
01:01:45,800 --> 01:01:47,680
Speaker 1: because I think they had a lot of guns. You know,

1077
01:01:47,720 --> 01:01:50,120
Speaker 1: they found a banyonet, there's all this stuff, but I

1078
01:01:50,120 --> 01:01:52,880
Speaker 1: guess this is a particular musket that they're focusing in on.

1079
01:01:53,280 --> 01:01:55,880
Speaker 1: It sounds like the bloody coat does not that was

1080
01:01:55,880 --> 01:01:58,520
Speaker 1: found in the woods, does not belong to the Gordons.

1081
01:01:59,400 --> 01:02:02,200
Speaker 1: I call this an o jasonson moment the defense asked

1082
01:02:02,280 --> 01:02:05,360
Speaker 1: John to put on the coat and it's too big

1083
01:02:05,400 --> 01:02:08,240
Speaker 1: for him. It's way too big for him. And I

1084
01:02:08,240 --> 01:02:11,000
Speaker 1: think it sounded like the shirt belonged to John. Nobody

1085
01:02:11,040 --> 01:02:14,320
Speaker 1: had bloody elbows from what I could tell, no scraped

1086
01:02:14,360 --> 01:02:17,000
Speaker 1: up elbows. Okay, you know, of course they didn't analyze

1087
01:02:17,040 --> 01:02:19,960
Speaker 1: the blood. So it's a very confusing scenario.

1088
01:02:20,360 --> 01:02:24,040
Speaker 2: Well, and that's what's you know, critical, is you need

1089
01:02:24,080 --> 01:02:29,080
Speaker 2: to have evidence that matches with the actual homicide scene.

1090
01:02:29,440 --> 01:02:32,320
Speaker 2: And you know you have somebody on the escape route

1091
01:02:32,400 --> 01:02:35,840
Speaker 2: that is dripping blood. You know, unless the dog is

1092
01:02:35,960 --> 01:02:39,960
Speaker 2: dripping blood, you know, it's these guys were arrested so

1093
01:02:40,120 --> 01:02:44,000
Speaker 2: quickly that you're going to see wounds that you could go, yeah,

1094
01:02:44,040 --> 01:02:46,680
Speaker 2: that could be the source of this type of blood

1095
01:02:46,720 --> 01:02:49,080
Speaker 2: trail at this crime scene. And they don't have that.

1096
01:02:49,520 --> 01:02:51,640
Speaker 1: Well, and I'll tell you what else that somebody brings

1097
01:02:51,720 --> 01:02:54,280
Speaker 1: up a great point. Remember, nothing's tested. As I said

1098
01:02:55,080 --> 01:02:59,040
Speaker 1: there was. The defense calls witnesses who take the stand

1099
01:02:59,160 --> 01:03:01,200
Speaker 1: who work with John on John works at a print

1100
01:03:01,240 --> 01:03:04,880
Speaker 1: factory and they use something called Matter's dye, which is

1101
01:03:05,160 --> 01:03:08,880
Speaker 1: a red dye used in printing calico cloth and it

1102
01:03:09,000 --> 01:03:12,640
Speaker 1: stains clothes. And these witnesses said, we all have red

1103
01:03:12,680 --> 01:03:15,400
Speaker 1: stains all over our clothes because we use that dye.

1104
01:03:15,480 --> 01:03:18,200
Speaker 1: And because they didn't test it to determine which they

1105
01:03:18,200 --> 01:03:21,200
Speaker 1: could have whether this was blood. There you go. The

1106
01:03:21,240 --> 01:03:22,680
Speaker 1: defense says, you can't prove.

1107
01:03:22,480 --> 01:03:26,360
Speaker 2: This well, and that's where I mean, And I've talked

1108
01:03:26,360 --> 01:03:30,240
Speaker 2: about this before. I've looked at so many pieces of

1109
01:03:30,280 --> 01:03:34,160
Speaker 2: evidence that had red stains on them, and to my eye,

1110
01:03:34,240 --> 01:03:36,000
Speaker 2: I go, yeah, that looks like blood. And then I

1111
01:03:36,200 --> 01:03:39,880
Speaker 2: test it with presumptive blood testing chemicals and it's like,

1112
01:03:39,920 --> 01:03:43,360
Speaker 2: it's not blood. You can easily be fooled. That's why

1113
01:03:43,400 --> 01:03:47,040
Speaker 2: you have to do the testing. You can't just conclude

1114
01:03:47,120 --> 01:03:50,320
Speaker 2: based off of a visual appearance. You need to do

1115
01:03:50,400 --> 01:03:53,880
Speaker 2: the testing because in this particular case, it sounds like

1116
01:03:53,920 --> 01:03:57,560
Speaker 2: it's very possible this bloody elbow on the shirt that

1117
01:03:57,720 --> 01:04:01,400
Speaker 2: was found in the Gordon residence is from the occupation. Yeah,

1118
01:04:01,560 --> 01:04:03,600
Speaker 2: that he's involved with. It's not blood.

1119
01:04:03,840 --> 01:04:06,160
Speaker 1: Well, the defense is doing the best it can, of course,

1120
01:04:06,200 --> 01:04:09,320
Speaker 1: they are discounting the shoe prints, the track marks, the

1121
01:04:09,320 --> 01:04:12,760
Speaker 1: poor dog Paul Prince and saying, you know, there's just

1122
01:04:12,800 --> 01:04:15,439
Speaker 1: a way you can't say that considering how many people

1123
01:04:15,520 --> 01:04:19,520
Speaker 1: use that footbridge, that these guys first of all, that

1124
01:04:19,560 --> 01:04:21,959
Speaker 1: the tracks even go to their apartment, but that these

1125
01:04:21,960 --> 01:04:26,120
Speaker 1: were made that day. And the defense had said that

1126
01:04:26,160 --> 01:04:28,720
Speaker 1: there were witnesses that said there were two men who

1127
01:04:28,720 --> 01:04:32,280
Speaker 1: had been in the vicinity of the murder scene fifteen

1128
01:04:32,320 --> 01:04:35,840
Speaker 1: minutes before the gunshots were heard. They were carrying a gun.

1129
01:04:36,000 --> 01:04:40,000
Speaker 1: They claimed to be hunting and one man was shorter,

1130
01:04:40,240 --> 01:04:44,080
Speaker 1: not wearing a coat even though it was cold. Now

1131
01:04:44,120 --> 01:04:47,479
Speaker 1: do they ever identify these guys? No, but people said

1132
01:04:47,480 --> 01:04:49,080
Speaker 1: they saw them and they didn't know who they were,

1133
01:04:49,240 --> 01:04:52,200
Speaker 1: and they would have known Nicholas and the Gordon brothers.

1134
01:04:52,720 --> 01:04:56,440
Speaker 2: Well, if it's not the Gordon brothers, then who is

1135
01:04:56,480 --> 01:04:58,320
Speaker 2: it who killed Amasa?

1136
01:04:58,920 --> 01:05:01,520
Speaker 1: I know? And that's I think is what's the most

1137
01:05:01,520 --> 01:05:04,360
Speaker 1: confounding thing about this case. Let me tell you kind

1138
01:05:04,400 --> 01:05:08,320
Speaker 1: of where we go. So after a nine day trial,

1139
01:05:08,400 --> 01:05:11,400
Speaker 1: which is long for this time period, the jury announces

1140
01:05:11,440 --> 01:05:14,840
Speaker 1: its verdict. William is acquitted. He was the one in

1141
01:05:14,960 --> 01:05:19,200
Speaker 1: Mass with the great Alibi. Okay, John's found guilty. After

1142
01:05:19,240 --> 01:05:22,240
Speaker 1: a series of denied petitions for a retrial, he is

1143
01:05:22,360 --> 01:05:27,360
Speaker 1: sentenced to hang, and he does hang for this and Nicholas.

1144
01:05:27,600 --> 01:05:31,680
Speaker 1: Nicholas goes on trial in October of eighteen forty four

1145
01:05:31,800 --> 01:05:36,360
Speaker 1: and then again in April of forty five. So John

1146
01:05:36,400 --> 01:05:38,800
Speaker 1: has hanged in between these two trials. They were both hung.

1147
01:05:38,880 --> 01:05:42,680
Speaker 1: Juris you know, John didn't recant his innocence even when

1148
01:05:42,680 --> 01:05:44,520
Speaker 1: he took his last rites, which would have been a

1149
01:05:44,520 --> 01:05:49,280
Speaker 1: big deal. And Nicholas dies on October twenty second, he

1150
01:05:49,360 --> 01:05:51,720
Speaker 1: never went to prison. There were two hung juries. He

1151
01:05:51,760 --> 01:05:54,320
Speaker 1: never goes to prison. So he dies. I don't know

1152
01:05:54,360 --> 01:05:57,320
Speaker 1: of what. I don't know if this was, you know,

1153
01:05:57,440 --> 01:06:01,040
Speaker 1: taking his own life or natural causes or whatever. But

1154
01:06:01,680 --> 01:06:05,840
Speaker 1: here's just another I mean, this family, Nicholas had debt,

1155
01:06:06,160 --> 01:06:09,880
Speaker 1: and in the seventeen hundreds and the eighteen hundreds, if

1156
01:06:10,120 --> 01:06:13,080
Speaker 1: you had debt and you died, your nearest family member

1157
01:06:13,200 --> 01:06:15,600
Speaker 1: was responsible for that debt. And that is how a

1158
01:06:15,640 --> 01:06:18,600
Speaker 1: lot of people got into trouble. I think Thomas Jefferson

1159
01:06:18,600 --> 01:06:20,440
Speaker 1: had to pay off his father in law's debt and

1160
01:06:20,480 --> 01:06:23,720
Speaker 1: it was terrible. So if your family member, you have

1161
01:06:23,760 --> 01:06:26,560
Speaker 1: to repay that debt. And William was the one tapped

1162
01:06:26,640 --> 01:06:31,240
Speaker 1: to repay Nicholas's debt and he couldn't do it, so

1163
01:06:31,280 --> 01:06:34,640
Speaker 1: he went to prison and he dies in an asylum

1164
01:06:34,920 --> 01:06:39,480
Speaker 1: after he was battling alcoholism, and so then they transferred

1165
01:06:39,480 --> 01:06:41,840
Speaker 1: to an asylum and then he died in the asylum.

1166
01:06:42,280 --> 01:06:45,720
Speaker 2: Now did they ever establish a connection with the Gordon

1167
01:06:45,800 --> 01:06:51,320
Speaker 2: family to Thomas door Nope. So fundamentally it's Nicholas was

1168
01:06:51,360 --> 01:06:56,040
Speaker 2: done wrong by a Maasa over the business conflict, and

1169
01:06:56,680 --> 01:07:00,560
Speaker 2: the whole family conspired to kill Amasa to get back

1170
01:07:00,600 --> 01:07:03,000
Speaker 2: at him. That's where we're at.

1171
01:07:03,240 --> 01:07:07,000
Speaker 1: Yes, let me tell you kind of a further down conclusion.

1172
01:07:07,240 --> 01:07:10,480
Speaker 1: So in eighteen fifty two, seven years after that happened,

1173
01:07:10,480 --> 01:07:15,880
Speaker 1: the state abolished capital punishment, and there is less anti

1174
01:07:16,000 --> 01:07:20,280
Speaker 1: Irish sentiment, and the people in the town and in

1175
01:07:20,360 --> 01:07:22,760
Speaker 1: the state start to acknowledge there was a miscarriage of

1176
01:07:22,960 --> 01:07:26,240
Speaker 1: justice in the trial. And then there is a trial

1177
01:07:26,480 --> 01:07:28,919
Speaker 1: one hundred and fifty years later. There's a play called

1178
01:07:28,960 --> 01:07:32,760
Speaker 1: the Murder Trial of John Gordon, and there's a state

1179
01:07:32,880 --> 01:07:39,000
Speaker 1: representative of Newport who in twenty eleven sponsors resolution to

1180
01:07:39,120 --> 01:07:44,240
Speaker 1: exonerate John posthumously, of course, and it's successful, so he's

1181
01:07:44,280 --> 01:07:48,560
Speaker 1: officially pardoned. I'm the one brother who I don't know.

1182
01:07:48,720 --> 01:07:51,600
Speaker 1: I just feel like he was screwed over by various people.

1183
01:07:51,640 --> 01:07:54,400
Speaker 1: I have no idea why William didn't say that he

1184
01:07:54,480 --> 01:07:57,040
Speaker 1: had hidden the brother's gun. I actually don't think that

1185
01:07:57,080 --> 01:07:58,800
Speaker 1: would have made a difference. I think they would have

1186
01:07:59,000 --> 01:08:02,040
Speaker 1: you figured it out either way, as you said, if

1187
01:08:02,080 --> 01:08:04,120
Speaker 1: the brothers didn't do it, who did kill him.

1188
01:08:04,560 --> 01:08:07,200
Speaker 2: I can't say whether the Gordons were involved or not.

1189
01:08:07,760 --> 01:08:09,640
Speaker 2: You know, I don't think I definitely don't think that

1190
01:08:09,680 --> 01:08:13,520
Speaker 2: they had a case against the Gordons, maybe because of

1191
01:08:13,560 --> 01:08:18,479
Speaker 2: the the motive that Nicholas was that business conflict with

1192
01:08:18,520 --> 01:08:21,000
Speaker 2: a Masa. Yeah, I mean you could you could say motive,

1193
01:08:21,040 --> 01:08:24,800
Speaker 2: but there's plenty of people, particularly with Amasa's pedigree, there's

1194
01:08:24,800 --> 01:08:28,479
Speaker 2: probably plenty of people in his past that could have motive. Yeah,

1195
01:08:28,520 --> 01:08:31,000
Speaker 2: you have to prove a case, and I just don't

1196
01:08:31,000 --> 01:08:34,599
Speaker 2: think they've they've proven the case. And with your history

1197
01:08:34,720 --> 01:08:39,559
Speaker 2: lesson if you will, with Thomas Dorr and this, uh

1198
01:08:40,000 --> 01:08:42,840
Speaker 2: you know, immigrants having you know, voting rights and a

1199
01:08:42,920 --> 01:08:45,680
Speaker 2: Massa being on the opposite side, you know, was this

1200
01:08:45,760 --> 01:08:48,760
Speaker 2: a hit? And did the assassins get away with it?

1201
01:08:48,800 --> 01:08:52,600
Speaker 2: I mean, I think that's just as reasonable a possibility

1202
01:08:52,760 --> 01:08:54,800
Speaker 2: as the Gordons at this point, right.

1203
01:08:55,200 --> 01:08:58,880
Speaker 1: And my thought was, you know, Nicholas Gordon, he was

1204
01:08:58,960 --> 01:09:03,040
Speaker 1: not Sprague wealthy. He had money from his two businesses.

1205
01:09:03,080 --> 01:09:05,960
Speaker 1: But if your fifty percent of your business has just

1206
01:09:06,000 --> 01:09:09,800
Speaker 1: closed down because of these asshole Spragus, when you take

1207
01:09:09,880 --> 01:09:12,560
Speaker 1: that money, you know, the watch you probably wouldn't be

1208
01:09:12,560 --> 01:09:15,519
Speaker 1: able to sell, but you know, thousands of dollars, a

1209
01:09:15,520 --> 01:09:18,680
Speaker 1: couple thousand dollars, when you just take the money, it

1210
01:09:18,720 --> 01:09:21,080
Speaker 1: would help making it look a little bit more like

1211
01:09:21,120 --> 01:09:24,160
Speaker 1: a robbery. And I'll tell you, Paul, it's been floated

1212
01:09:24,439 --> 01:09:27,479
Speaker 1: that Amasa's brother might have done it too, because he

1213
01:09:27,520 --> 01:09:29,160
Speaker 1: was the one who had the most to gain because

1214
01:09:29,160 --> 01:09:30,640
Speaker 1: he inherited everything after that.

1215
01:09:31,400 --> 01:09:35,439
Speaker 2: No, we see plenty of homicides that occur between family

1216
01:09:35,479 --> 01:09:39,120
Speaker 2: members because of that very thing. This would be a

1217
01:09:39,560 --> 01:09:43,600
Speaker 2: very easy case to solve today. You know what the

1218
01:09:43,600 --> 01:09:44,759
Speaker 2: evidence left behind.

1219
01:09:45,000 --> 01:09:48,479
Speaker 1: That's why I started this episode like that. This is

1220
01:09:48,520 --> 01:09:51,920
Speaker 1: an example of what we couldn't do in eighteen forties

1221
01:09:51,920 --> 01:09:53,000
Speaker 1: and what we can do now.

1222
01:09:53,439 --> 01:09:59,040
Speaker 2: Well, it's interesting that as recently as twenty twenty eleven,

1223
01:09:59,520 --> 01:10:03,440
Speaker 2: you know how you're getting John No kind of exonerated

1224
01:10:03,600 --> 01:10:06,880
Speaker 2: if you will. Yeah. That so obviously this is a

1225
01:10:06,920 --> 01:10:09,320
Speaker 2: case that kind of resonated within that community.

1226
01:10:09,640 --> 01:10:12,320
Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely, And I think I told you in the

1227
01:10:12,400 --> 01:10:17,160
Speaker 1: case in Rhode Island, also from the sixteen hundreds, about

1228
01:10:17,200 --> 01:10:20,559
Speaker 1: a son who was accused of murdering his mother to

1229
01:10:20,600 --> 01:10:22,920
Speaker 1: get all of the property that was left to her,

1230
01:10:23,800 --> 01:10:26,360
Speaker 1: and she died in a fire, you know, and a

1231
01:10:26,400 --> 01:10:28,960
Speaker 1: lot of people, including me, believed he actually didn't do it,

1232
01:10:29,200 --> 01:10:31,720
Speaker 1: that she most likely had a heart attack, and kind

1233
01:10:31,760 --> 01:10:35,400
Speaker 1: of you know died with the fire around her. The

1234
01:10:35,439 --> 01:10:39,760
Speaker 1: family contacted me. This is from the sixteen thirties and

1235
01:10:40,080 --> 01:10:44,120
Speaker 1: they emailed me and said, we heard the podcast. We

1236
01:10:44,320 --> 01:10:47,840
Speaker 1: have written two or three letters to King Charles in

1237
01:10:47,920 --> 01:10:52,640
Speaker 1: England and said we believe that he was innocent. Please posthumously,

1238
01:10:53,040 --> 01:10:55,960
Speaker 1: you know, exonerate him. And it hasn't happened yet, but

1239
01:10:56,160 --> 01:10:57,639
Speaker 1: that was a lesson for me. And when I talk

1240
01:10:57,680 --> 01:11:01,519
Speaker 1: to people about why this matters for a family for

1241
01:11:01,920 --> 01:11:05,439
Speaker 1: five hundred years ago almost you know, to reach out

1242
01:11:05,479 --> 01:11:08,200
Speaker 1: like that and continue to want that it's a stain

1243
01:11:08,320 --> 01:11:11,559
Speaker 1: on their family and they want it removed. And so

1244
01:11:12,040 --> 01:11:14,559
Speaker 1: people care about their families. It says something about who

1245
01:11:14,600 --> 01:11:15,759
Speaker 1: you are and what you've become.

1246
01:11:16,680 --> 01:11:19,559
Speaker 2: No, I didn't realize that that had happened. That's amazing.

1247
01:11:19,640 --> 01:11:21,920
Speaker 1: Actually, yeah, it's amazing. I mean, I hope they get

1248
01:11:21,960 --> 01:11:24,400
Speaker 1: it because I do believe it was Thomas Cornell's story,

1249
01:11:24,720 --> 01:11:26,880
Speaker 1: and I do believe that he was innocent and he

1250
01:11:26,920 --> 01:11:29,400
Speaker 1: got reil roaded. This is the one. I don't know

1251
01:11:29,439 --> 01:11:31,840
Speaker 1: if you remember the story, but you and I didn't

1252
01:11:31,880 --> 01:11:35,280
Speaker 1: go through it. But his wife saw a dog, you know,

1253
01:11:35,360 --> 01:11:38,160
Speaker 1: a black dog leaped towards the woman and it wasn't

1254
01:11:38,560 --> 01:11:41,160
Speaker 1: a real dog, and that was like the sign of

1255
01:11:41,760 --> 01:11:45,000
Speaker 1: a poltergeist and witches, and it was a very like

1256
01:11:45,479 --> 01:11:49,040
Speaker 1: fearful time. And it was also where I learned that

1257
01:11:49,600 --> 01:11:53,519
Speaker 1: they would in that time period have the murder suspect

1258
01:11:53,600 --> 01:11:56,400
Speaker 1: put their hands on the murder victim and it's the

1259
01:11:56,479 --> 01:12:00,599
Speaker 1: victim bled, that was the victim indicating who their or was.

1260
01:12:01,439 --> 01:12:04,200
Speaker 1: So that's where that's what I was dealing with the case.

1261
01:12:04,520 --> 01:12:06,479
Speaker 2: Oh good God, yes, I know.

1262
01:12:07,200 --> 01:12:08,880
Speaker 1: I'm gonna make you do one of those cases just

1263
01:12:08,880 --> 01:12:12,200
Speaker 1: to see what you say. Murderers black dogs is a

1264
01:12:12,200 --> 01:12:16,160
Speaker 1: bad omen and all kinds of stuff. But I hope

1265
01:12:16,160 --> 01:12:19,160
Speaker 1: that everybody turned out okay, especially the dog. The dog

1266
01:12:19,320 --> 01:12:23,760
Speaker 1: literally did nothing wrong, and I shocked that they would

1267
01:12:23,800 --> 01:12:27,080
Speaker 1: arrest animals. But there you go, different times.

1268
01:12:27,439 --> 01:12:29,360
Speaker 2: All right, Well, once again, you know, this was a

1269
01:12:29,400 --> 01:12:34,880
Speaker 2: fascinating case and some interesting quirky things going on in it.

1270
01:12:35,080 --> 01:12:40,000
Speaker 1: That's the goal. Murder mayhem, an interesting conclusion in quirky things.

1271
01:12:40,280 --> 01:12:43,680
Speaker 1: That's it. Okay, I'll see you next week with more

1272
01:12:43,680 --> 01:12:44,800
Speaker 1: of the same. I'm pretty sure.

1273
01:12:45,040 --> 01:12:49,240
Speaker 2: All right. Sounds good Cape.

1274
01:12:50,479 --> 01:12:53,759
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production for our sources

1275
01:12:53,760 --> 01:12:56,880
Speaker 1: and show notes go to exactly Rightmedia dot com slash

1276
01:12:57,000 --> 01:13:00,960
Speaker 1: Buried Bones sources. Our senior producer is Amrosi.

1277
01:13:01,240 --> 01:13:04,200
Speaker 2: Research by Alison Trumble and Kate Winkler Dawson.

1278
01:13:04,439 --> 01:13:06,720
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

1279
01:13:07,040 --> 01:13:09,320
Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

1280
01:13:09,560 --> 01:13:11,599
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

1281
01:13:11,840 --> 01:13:16,000
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark, and Daniel Kramer.

1282
01:13:16,280 --> 01:13:19,639
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

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Speaker 1: buried Bones pod.

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Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

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Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

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Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available now, and.

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Speaker 1: Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life solving America's Cold

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Speaker 1: Cases is also available now.

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Speaker 2: Listen to Barry Bones on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

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Speaker 2: or wherever you get your podcasts.