1 00:00:00,640 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics, 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:07,120 Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of 3 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:13,640 Speaker 1: today's best minds and Republican Jefferson Griffin has conceded the 4 00:00:13,680 --> 00:00:18,720 Speaker 1: North Carolina as Supreme Court race to Justice Riggsay, finally, 5 00:00:19,160 --> 00:00:22,880 Speaker 1: we have such a great show for you today. MSNBC's 6 00:00:22,960 --> 00:00:26,759 Speaker 1: The Weeknight host Michael Steele stops by to talk about 7 00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:32,080 Speaker 1: Republican dysfunction. Then we'll talk to entrepreneur Chris Hughes about 8 00:00:32,120 --> 00:00:36,159 Speaker 1: his new book, Market Crafters, The one hundred years Struggle 9 00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:38,240 Speaker 1: to shape the American economy. 10 00:00:38,440 --> 00:00:43,360 Speaker 2: But first the news Somali, there's a war between Jerome 11 00:00:43,440 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 2: Powell and Donald J. Trump, and Jerome Powell has chosen 12 00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:52,240 Speaker 2: to keep rates on hold because of Donald Trump's tariff shock. 13 00:00:52,520 --> 00:00:53,479 Speaker 2: What are you thinking about this? 14 00:00:54,080 --> 00:00:58,200 Speaker 1: So Donald Trump doesn't quite understand a lot of stuff. 15 00:00:58,240 --> 00:01:02,080 Speaker 1: He understands that if you lower interest rates, the stocks 16 00:01:02,120 --> 00:01:02,600 Speaker 1: go up. 17 00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:03,840 Speaker 3: That's all he understands. 18 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:08,399 Speaker 1: He doesn't understand why you raise interest rates. He doesn't understand. 19 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:11,080 Speaker 1: Like when he was president the last time, he would 20 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:13,959 Speaker 1: just spend much of his time like tweeting you got 21 00:01:13,959 --> 00:01:17,240 Speaker 1: a lower rates because he knew it would pump up stocks. 22 00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:19,959 Speaker 1: And look, Trump's whole thing is to just sort of 23 00:01:20,080 --> 00:01:24,080 Speaker 1: puff up everything, the economy, the numbers, the sort of 24 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:28,959 Speaker 1: juice things. Now here is the problem. We are still 25 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:34,040 Speaker 1: an economy reeling from inflation. So if Jerome Pale lowers 26 00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:37,720 Speaker 1: interest rates, what's going to happen is that inflation's going 27 00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:41,080 Speaker 1: to go up. The reason you raise interest rates is 28 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:45,440 Speaker 1: because it slows inflation. So what Trump wants to do, 29 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:49,480 Speaker 1: Trump really really really wants to fire Jerome Powell and 30 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:52,080 Speaker 1: put in someone who will do whatever he wants. But 31 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:54,720 Speaker 1: he does not have the presidential power to do that, 32 00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:57,000 Speaker 1: so he would be breaking the law. And I think 33 00:01:57,000 --> 00:01:59,480 Speaker 1: it's important because Trump is always sort of musing about 34 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:03,080 Speaker 1: doing things that are really illegal, like running for a 35 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:05,720 Speaker 1: third term, and I think it's important we take him 36 00:02:05,760 --> 00:02:10,160 Speaker 1: seriously and really explain this. But he can't fire Jerome Powell. 37 00:02:10,480 --> 00:02:13,240 Speaker 1: So even when he says like and luckily for you, 38 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:15,080 Speaker 1: I'm not going to fire him, you don't have the 39 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:19,160 Speaker 1: power to, buddy. But Jerome Pal it would be malpractice 40 00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:23,560 Speaker 1: right now because these tariffs are going to be very inflationary. 41 00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:27,240 Speaker 1: So if you lowered interest rates, Trump thinks it. 42 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:28,440 Speaker 3: Would juice the economy. 43 00:02:28,440 --> 00:02:32,240 Speaker 1: But what it would really actually do is juice the 44 00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:36,400 Speaker 1: inflationary stuff, and we would have even more inflationary problems. 45 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:40,480 Speaker 1: There's a real scenario where we are sort of heading 46 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:44,400 Speaker 1: into stagslation. Things get more expensive, and we're in a recession, 47 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:48,320 Speaker 1: and that's all because of this stupid tariff crap. So 48 00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:52,919 Speaker 1: I don't think that you know this is what it is. 49 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:56,919 Speaker 1: Whatever it's stupid, Trump's going to be furious. 50 00:02:57,520 --> 00:02:58,960 Speaker 3: And Palell had a. 51 00:02:58,919 --> 00:03:01,200 Speaker 1: Really good quote, which which is the level of tariff 52 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:05,720 Speaker 1: increases and now so far are significantly larger than anticipated. 53 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:06,760 Speaker 3: Duh. 54 00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:10,280 Speaker 1: The same is likely to be true of the economic effects, 55 00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:15,360 Speaker 1: which will include higher inflation and slower growth. Right, higher 56 00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:18,880 Speaker 1: inflation and slower growth, those are the two things you need. 57 00:03:19,240 --> 00:03:23,079 Speaker 1: When those two things get really bad, that's stagflation. And 58 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:26,880 Speaker 1: that's where we're careening to unless Donald Trump can make 59 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:30,480 Speaker 1: ninety deals in the next two weeks or whatever, however 60 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:31,440 Speaker 1: much time he has left. 61 00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:35,840 Speaker 2: So another feature of the Trump presidency is the grifting 62 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:39,840 Speaker 2: ed I've become personally obsessed with understanding meme coins in 63 00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:42,200 Speaker 2: the culture around them, because I find it funny. But 64 00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:46,360 Speaker 2: seven hundred and sixty four thousand Americans lost money on 65 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:49,720 Speaker 2: Trump meme coins, well, only fifty eight profited. That's what 66 00:03:49,760 --> 00:03:54,080 Speaker 2: we call a rug pull in that business. And that's insane. 67 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:57,520 Speaker 1: Like so many things in Trump world, this is a 68 00:03:57,880 --> 00:04:01,840 Speaker 1: Ponzi scheme Trump launched. Meant, by the way, Jimmy Carter 69 00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:04,480 Speaker 1: had to put his peanut farm in a blind trust. 70 00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:07,920 Speaker 1: Two million accounts have purchased the Trump coin. By the way, 71 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:10,720 Speaker 1: what even is it? It's just nothing, right, it's just 72 00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:11,880 Speaker 1: a it's nothing. 73 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:15,080 Speaker 2: It's like you're buying into an idea, which Navault Perrari 74 00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:17,920 Speaker 2: would argue that we're all doing that with currency. But 75 00:04:18,080 --> 00:04:19,760 Speaker 2: this is just the stupidest version of it. 76 00:04:19,839 --> 00:04:22,880 Speaker 1: Like most of our society, meme coins based on Internet 77 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:26,840 Speaker 1: jokes or fast moving cultural trends. I mean, so here 78 00:04:26,839 --> 00:04:30,560 Speaker 1: are the people who made money on meme coin, his friend, I. 79 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:31,400 Speaker 3: Mean, I don't know. 80 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:35,440 Speaker 1: We don't know because we don't really have the reporting yet. 81 00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:39,080 Speaker 2: This is such an unregulated space. They did even more 82 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:41,720 Speaker 2: deregulation to make it so that they could get away 83 00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:43,159 Speaker 2: with more of this bullshit. 84 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:46,240 Speaker 3: Right, So we don't know, but it seems pretty sketchy. 85 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:49,680 Speaker 2: You could say that. So we have a Trump budget 86 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:52,280 Speaker 2: and there are medicaid cuts. Were really shocked to hear this. 87 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:54,160 Speaker 2: We never would have seen them doing this. But the 88 00:04:54,160 --> 00:04:56,680 Speaker 2: CBO has just scored it, and it's not looking good 89 00:04:56,680 --> 00:04:57,719 Speaker 2: for the people of America. 90 00:04:58,160 --> 00:05:00,359 Speaker 1: Some Democrats are saying, and I actually think this is 91 00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:06,800 Speaker 1: pretty smart messaging that this is the largest transfer of wealth. 92 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:10,200 Speaker 1: I think Burscher said it to us on the podcast. 93 00:05:10,520 --> 00:05:14,159 Speaker 1: Largest transfer of wealth from poor peoples of rich people 94 00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:18,800 Speaker 1: is the Trump budget. The analysis requested by Democrats says that. 95 00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:20,480 Speaker 3: Per capita caps for. 96 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:25,120 Speaker 1: Medicaid expansion population would save two hundred and twenty five 97 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:28,360 Speaker 1: billion in federal spending and result in one point five 98 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:34,080 Speaker 1: million more uninsured people by twenty thirty four. Blocking provider 99 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:37,400 Speaker 1: taxes could save six hundred and sixty eight billion and 100 00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:40,359 Speaker 1: lead to three point nine million losing coverage. 101 00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:41,680 Speaker 3: So here's the idea. 102 00:05:41,839 --> 00:05:47,920 Speaker 1: Medicaid pays for nursing homes, pays for rural hospitals, pays 103 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:52,880 Speaker 1: for the pediatricians who see the poor kids. In a 104 00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:56,239 Speaker 1: lot of states. You cut all of this, here's what happens. 105 00:05:56,279 --> 00:06:01,400 Speaker 1: The nursing homes close, the rural hospitals close, there is 106 00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:06,560 Speaker 1: no pediatrician to see your kid. So if Republicans can't 107 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:12,680 Speaker 1: prevent elections, which they may try. It will be the 108 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:16,000 Speaker 1: single you know, they will never win another election if 109 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:19,320 Speaker 1: they do this, because you will see your hospital close, 110 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:22,640 Speaker 1: your nursing home close. Why is why is Grandma coming 111 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:26,159 Speaker 1: home to live with us? Because there's no nursing home. 112 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:30,480 Speaker 1: It's closed, right? Why is great Uncle Milton living on 113 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:33,400 Speaker 1: the street because the nursing home is closed. 114 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:34,919 Speaker 3: Because they cut medicaid. 115 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:37,880 Speaker 1: I mean, that's what this looks like in real time, 116 00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:40,839 Speaker 1: and it means like you're not driving forty miles to 117 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:43,040 Speaker 1: a hospital, You're driving one hundred and forty miles to 118 00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:47,159 Speaker 1: a hospital. So these are real things that people in 119 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:49,880 Speaker 1: Red states are going to see. And in some ways 120 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:52,880 Speaker 1: this is just indulge me for another minute because. 121 00:06:52,680 --> 00:06:55,080 Speaker 3: It's my fucking podcast. Exe's my friend. 122 00:06:55,360 --> 00:06:59,719 Speaker 1: The brilliance of Obamacare, the brilliance of it and medicated 123 00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:03,120 Speaker 1: space was that I remember when I was a kid, 124 00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:06,479 Speaker 1: we had people who weren't insured and those people went 125 00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:08,599 Speaker 1: to emergency. 126 00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:08,960 Speaker 3: Rooms for treatment. 127 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:09,960 Speaker 2: I was one of them. 128 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:11,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, they had no choices. 129 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:16,000 Speaker 1: And what we did with Obamacare and this is really 130 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:20,720 Speaker 1: honestly like, we gave people medicine and now I'm telling 131 00:07:20,760 --> 00:07:25,160 Speaker 1: you the Medicaid expansion you know, some states have rejected 132 00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:29,600 Speaker 1: it because they're you know, Republicans, but largely the states 133 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:32,120 Speaker 1: that have it, like Andy Buscher who we talked to, 134 00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:34,440 Speaker 1: like this has been a game changer. 135 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:34,960 Speaker 4: Right. 136 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:38,680 Speaker 1: There are hospitals where there were no hospitals, so Republicans 137 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:41,960 Speaker 1: would have to get rid of these hospitals. And I'm 138 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:45,320 Speaker 1: just not convinced that they want to take the poison 139 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:45,560 Speaker 1: on this. 140 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:49,280 Speaker 2: And what we see in the Houses, they're bullying a 141 00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:51,440 Speaker 2: lot of members to pass this so that they can 142 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:54,680 Speaker 2: fundraise off this, saying that the Senate will strike it down. 143 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:57,280 Speaker 2: Don't worry, guys, You'll be fine. And they're trying to 144 00:07:57,320 --> 00:08:00,400 Speaker 2: get some of the more wavery Republicans on board with 145 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:01,120 Speaker 2: it that way. 146 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:03,200 Speaker 3: Good luck team. Yeah. 147 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:05,720 Speaker 2: I'll just say this mine, if my in laws were 148 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:08,040 Speaker 2: forced to come to live with me, I voted lifelong 149 00:08:08,120 --> 00:08:10,960 Speaker 2: Democrat all my life. That would change real fast, That's 150 00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:14,080 Speaker 2: all I'm saying. If they forced that, I'd be some 151 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:15,760 Speaker 2: real borsch belt humor for you all. 152 00:08:15,880 --> 00:08:18,840 Speaker 3: Okay, bomb bomb never follow a dog up. 153 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:23,840 Speaker 2: A judge's blocked Trump's dismantling of three different agencies, which 154 00:08:23,920 --> 00:08:26,920 Speaker 2: yet again, let's just thank god for the courts. I think. 155 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:28,840 Speaker 2: I never thought I'd be saying it's. 156 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:31,480 Speaker 1: So good they wanted to By the way, I just 157 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:34,679 Speaker 1: want to say the three ones they wanted to get 158 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:38,920 Speaker 1: rid of, Okay, the Institute of Museum and Library Sciences. 159 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 3: First of all, it is like you, how many people 160 00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:42,400 Speaker 3: work in that? You know? 161 00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:46,400 Speaker 1: It's point zero zero zero zero zero one percent of 162 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:49,520 Speaker 1: the Pentagon, right, I mean it's like ten people. The 163 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:53,280 Speaker 1: Institute of Museum and Library Sciences. They wanted to kill that. 164 00:08:53,480 --> 00:08:57,960 Speaker 1: The Minority Business Development Agency obvious reasons because they're not 165 00:08:58,120 --> 00:09:02,760 Speaker 1: interested in that. And the Federal Mediation Services, which, by 166 00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:06,240 Speaker 1: the way, I'm just gonna tell you, mediation is like 167 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:10,320 Speaker 1: a way to save money versus you know, lawsuits, you know, 168 00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:12,880 Speaker 1: and I'm sure this is about workers' rights. But the 169 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:15,720 Speaker 1: point is they tried to close it. Like yet again, 170 00:09:16,440 --> 00:09:20,400 Speaker 1: we're seeing the Trump world just absolutely lose it in 171 00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:23,680 Speaker 1: the courts, as they should, as they will continue on 172 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:30,800 Speaker 1: as they deserve. Michael Steele is the co host of 173 00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:36,200 Speaker 1: The Weeknight along with Slomone, Sanders Townsend, and Alicia Menendez. 174 00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:40,599 Speaker 1: It airs Mondays from seven to nine pm and Tuesdays 175 00:09:40,640 --> 00:09:46,160 Speaker 1: through Fridays from seven to eight pm on MSNBC. 176 00:09:45,760 --> 00:09:47,040 Speaker 3: Welcome to Path Politicists. 177 00:09:47,040 --> 00:09:48,760 Speaker 4: Michael Steele, Okay, what's up. 178 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:51,520 Speaker 1: I'm so excited that I get to have I get 179 00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:55,960 Speaker 1: to have you, Alicia and Simone on my podcast to 180 00:09:56,040 --> 00:09:59,600 Speaker 1: promote your show. But like, here's the trick. I actually 181 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:03,559 Speaker 1: would have you on anyway to talk about politics. So 182 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:07,120 Speaker 1: it's like there are occasionally are times when what I 183 00:10:07,160 --> 00:10:10,280 Speaker 1: want to talk about and doing something that is sort 184 00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:15,240 Speaker 1: of what is needed or wanted coincide, but almost never. 185 00:10:15,640 --> 00:10:19,360 Speaker 1: So I'm very excited about this and I'm extremely happy 186 00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:21,640 Speaker 1: to have you here, and I'm gonna I think we 187 00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:25,839 Speaker 1: should start by talking about the hundred days of I 188 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:29,559 Speaker 1: told you so? Do you remember what you wrote on 189 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:33,240 Speaker 1: a piece of paper on election night at three o'clock 190 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:36,280 Speaker 1: in the morning to make no okay, so eight o'clock 191 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:39,880 Speaker 1: in the morning, I am to say that I am 192 00:10:40,360 --> 00:10:43,079 Speaker 1: like I have never I'm out of my body. I'm 193 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:47,560 Speaker 1: so upset, I am like watching myself. We are on 194 00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:50,640 Speaker 1: the set and I look over at you and I'm. 195 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:52,319 Speaker 3: Like, holy, what are we gonna do? 196 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:55,400 Speaker 1: And you write down at a piece of paper, We're gonna 197 00:10:55,480 --> 00:10:58,160 Speaker 1: at least won't be able to say we told them so. 198 00:10:58,559 --> 00:11:02,280 Speaker 5: Yeah, it is true. I was having a conversation. We 199 00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:04,760 Speaker 5: actually just came up on our show last night, and 200 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:08,760 Speaker 5: so one of the guests that made the comment about 201 00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:10,800 Speaker 5: you know, you know, we don't want to necessarily be 202 00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:14,480 Speaker 5: it saying I told you something like hello, I've forgotten 203 00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:16,880 Speaker 5: that I actually written that down on paper, but it's true. 204 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:19,720 Speaker 5: I don't know why we can't say I told you so, 205 00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:24,280 Speaker 5: I'm sorry. I give you every warning in the world. 206 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:27,440 Speaker 5: If I say to you, look, get out of the building. 207 00:11:27,559 --> 00:11:30,920 Speaker 5: It's on fire. Get out of the building. It's on fire, 208 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:34,679 Speaker 5: and then you don't get out of the building, and 209 00:11:34,760 --> 00:11:38,000 Speaker 5: bad things happened to you. Yeah, I'm going to tell 210 00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:40,360 Speaker 5: you I told you so. I'm sorry. I'm that guy. 211 00:11:40,640 --> 00:11:42,760 Speaker 5: I'm not just warning you to just to be a 212 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:46,520 Speaker 5: pain in the butt or to be to have trumped 213 00:11:46,520 --> 00:11:53,400 Speaker 5: derangements syndrome that crazy. I'm warning you because he's warning us, right. 214 00:11:53,480 --> 00:11:55,600 Speaker 1: And I think that's a really good point because we 215 00:11:55,679 --> 00:11:58,120 Speaker 1: saw so many times on the trail where he would say, 216 00:11:58,559 --> 00:12:00,439 Speaker 1: you know, people would say, well, you don't read mean 217 00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:03,160 Speaker 1: you're gonna hunt your political enemies, and you'd say, no, no. 218 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:06,319 Speaker 3: I mean that, Yeah, that's right. 219 00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:11,920 Speaker 1: You were like very high up in the Republican Party structure, 220 00:12:12,559 --> 00:12:14,360 Speaker 1: and I think you were a chair of the R andCA. 221 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:16,720 Speaker 5: Yeah, I did that for a little bit something like that. 222 00:12:16,880 --> 00:12:21,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, And so what I think that, I mean, there 223 00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:24,120 Speaker 1: was a moment when all of this stopped making sense, 224 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:26,400 Speaker 1: when they were just like, we're going to give up 225 00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:30,120 Speaker 1: on trying to be the sort of cut taxes and 226 00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:34,680 Speaker 1: be you know, a little less for people, but still 227 00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:38,199 Speaker 1: you know, ultimately not so different. I mean, the two 228 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:40,880 Speaker 1: parties were very were much more similar than they were 229 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:42,400 Speaker 1: different until Trump came along. 230 00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:45,760 Speaker 5: I'd agree that there were, but it's interesting you could 231 00:12:45,880 --> 00:12:48,800 Speaker 5: see the evolution that was occurring to both and where 232 00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:52,719 Speaker 5: that was really sort of one of those moments was 233 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:55,720 Speaker 5: when you had the emergence of the Tea Party and 234 00:12:55,880 --> 00:12:59,240 Speaker 5: Occupy Wall Street. They were two sides of the same coin. 235 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:03,120 Speaker 5: Interesting making the same case against Wall Street, making the 236 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:08,000 Speaker 5: same case about government intrusion, et cetera. That then crystallized, 237 00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:11,319 Speaker 5: Occupy Wall Street sort of went off into crazy land 238 00:13:11,559 --> 00:13:13,800 Speaker 5: with a whole lot of other stuff, so that collapsed. 239 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:18,480 Speaker 5: Tea Party held over and then but then eventually collapsed 240 00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:23,000 Speaker 5: and morphed into something else, which then leveled up. By 241 00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:26,480 Speaker 5: the time you get to twenty sixteen Trump. But then 242 00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:28,760 Speaker 5: when you get into that election, what did you see 243 00:13:28,840 --> 00:13:33,360 Speaker 5: happening during the course of that primary was the emergence 244 00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:37,160 Speaker 5: of the Donald Trump you know, Bernie Sanders voter, that 245 00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:42,200 Speaker 5: sort of progressive, you know, hard right conservative kind of 246 00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:46,560 Speaker 5: coming together. And I met my first Bernie Sanders Donald 247 00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:51,120 Speaker 5: Trump voters at the Democratic Convention in twenty sixteen. In 248 00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:54,240 Speaker 5: twenty sixteen, when all the drama was going on with 249 00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:57,400 Speaker 5: Hillary and not of that at that they didn't, you know, 250 00:13:57,440 --> 00:14:01,160 Speaker 5: and Bernie, Bernie made the case. I still contind had 251 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:04,559 Speaker 5: he started that race earlier, or he had an extra month, 252 00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:06,840 Speaker 5: he likely could have been the nominee, would have been 253 00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:09,480 Speaker 5: the nominee of the Democratic Party, because that's where the 254 00:14:09,520 --> 00:14:12,840 Speaker 5: momentum was going. Very much as we saw with Donald Trump, 255 00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:15,400 Speaker 5: the same thing was beginning to happen on the left. 256 00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:17,920 Speaker 5: So you do have these the two parties have always 257 00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:21,520 Speaker 5: kind of been molly in this sort of race with 258 00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:24,760 Speaker 5: each other, and along the way they dabble in some 259 00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:28,320 Speaker 5: policy or they you know, they you know, have an 260 00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:33,280 Speaker 5: opinion or an ideological spap, but they they find a 261 00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:36,320 Speaker 5: way to get get to the point where they can 262 00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:39,800 Speaker 5: get some things done that piece is not broken. And 263 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:42,760 Speaker 5: the work that the Congress, for example, used to do 264 00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:45,480 Speaker 5: has stopped. It has stopped for a while. And so 265 00:14:45,560 --> 00:14:49,280 Speaker 5: what you now have, interesting enough, is the two parties 266 00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:54,640 Speaker 5: shifting and taking on the opposite position, where Democrats today 267 00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:58,680 Speaker 5: in many cases sound like old line Republicans and Republicans 268 00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:01,160 Speaker 5: sound like they just you know what, crazy. 269 00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:04,000 Speaker 1: No, I'm going to ask you a question just for Jesse, 270 00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:07,520 Speaker 1: because he's listening, or maybe he's gone to get a coffee. 271 00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:09,080 Speaker 1: U think Bernie would have won. 272 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:11,720 Speaker 5: I look, I just look at the trend lines in 273 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:15,480 Speaker 5: that election. I mean the momentum he had, the momentum 274 00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:18,240 Speaker 5: that was the big part of how a lot of 275 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:20,960 Speaker 5: a lot of Democrats felt that the party put their 276 00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:23,440 Speaker 5: finger on the scales for Hitdle, that the energy on 277 00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:26,720 Speaker 5: the ground was for Hillary, I mean for Bernie, and 278 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:30,800 Speaker 5: that still is true. I mean, hell, he just got 279 00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:34,680 Speaker 5: thirty thousand plus people to come out. Who else in 280 00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:38,320 Speaker 5: politics is talking to thirty thousand people in the stadium 281 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:38,840 Speaker 5: right now? 282 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:42,080 Speaker 1: You know. I just want to add one thing about 283 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:45,080 Speaker 1: Bernie being out there right now, which I think is important, 284 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:48,440 Speaker 1: is that, first of all two things, one is that 285 00:15:48,920 --> 00:15:52,120 Speaker 1: he's doing it not because he's running for president. He's 286 00:15:52,160 --> 00:15:55,080 Speaker 1: doing it for the good of American democracy, which is, 287 00:15:55,880 --> 00:15:59,320 Speaker 1: you know, like this is not the most fun thing, 288 00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:02,360 Speaker 1: and you know, I mean, it's good whatever, but he 289 00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:04,480 Speaker 1: really is doing it for the greater good, which I 290 00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:07,560 Speaker 1: think is an important data point. And then also it 291 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:12,320 Speaker 1: is Charles Schumer who is sort of sending these people 292 00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:15,520 Speaker 1: out there and giving them the blessing to do it, 293 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:19,840 Speaker 1: because otherwise they wouldn't be doing it. I mean, maybe Bernie. 294 00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:23,080 Speaker 1: I still think Bernie is largely has been pretty much, 295 00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:27,640 Speaker 1: you know, So I do think when we criticize Schumer, 296 00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:31,080 Speaker 1: that is an important that he does. He has he 297 00:16:31,120 --> 00:16:33,480 Speaker 1: does have senators out there doing the stuff that they're 298 00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:34,280 Speaker 1: supposed to be doing. 299 00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:38,680 Speaker 5: Chris Murphy does he, I mean, I supposed if you 300 00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:40,160 Speaker 5: want to give it to him, give it to him. 301 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:44,640 Speaker 5: My issues with leadership, with the leadership of Chuck Schumer 302 00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:48,520 Speaker 5: is not that he can send a senator out to 303 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:51,160 Speaker 5: hold a rally. How do you use the rules of 304 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:54,720 Speaker 5: the United States Senate to protect your interest? Right? 305 00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:57,080 Speaker 3: And the master of the Senate stuff, right, I. 306 00:16:57,120 --> 00:17:01,760 Speaker 5: Mean, you've gotten pulped at every turn post, especially when 307 00:17:01,760 --> 00:17:04,879 Speaker 5: it comes to judicial appointments and the fact that the 308 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:10,080 Speaker 5: Democrats of the Senate capitulated and voted for in some 309 00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:13,520 Speaker 5: cases or allowed the vote to go forward in all 310 00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:19,600 Speaker 5: cases with the with the highly incompetent not ready for 311 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:23,679 Speaker 5: anything close to prime time nominees for various positions in 312 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:27,560 Speaker 5: our government. And there was no fight. Yeah, I mean case. 313 00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:30,600 Speaker 5: So now you want to send people out into a rally, okay, 314 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:33,920 Speaker 5: But the rally was should have been before you got 315 00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:36,480 Speaker 5: to this point. And so that's where I have a 316 00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:40,640 Speaker 5: problem with the leadership is that, yes, you have the title, 317 00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:42,880 Speaker 5: but you don't have the political instincts to know how 318 00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:44,480 Speaker 5: to use the title right. 319 00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:47,880 Speaker 1: And there are there are all sorts of weird Senate 320 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:50,960 Speaker 1: things you can do to come up the works. We've 321 00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:55,080 Speaker 1: seen Mitch McConnell do them. We saw Harry Reid do them. 322 00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:57,960 Speaker 1: That that stuff Schumer. 323 00:17:57,640 --> 00:17:58,840 Speaker 3: Has not filled it with. 324 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:01,959 Speaker 1: I do want to talk for a minute about the 325 00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:08,040 Speaker 1: cr because in the there was a year prior budget 326 00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:13,199 Speaker 1: reversal for the District of Columbia. Now they need this 327 00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:18,000 Speaker 1: money and and poor Mary al Bowser is trying to 328 00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:22,400 Speaker 1: kind of get it through and now Republicans, the far 329 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:25,800 Speaker 1: right plank is giving her trouble again, which. 330 00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:27,960 Speaker 3: I think that could have been an easy one that 331 00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:28,919 Speaker 3: Democrats could have. 332 00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:31,600 Speaker 5: It should have been an easy one for the Democrats 333 00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:34,840 Speaker 5: in my view, irrespective of what you think about the 334 00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:38,200 Speaker 5: District of Columbia, there's seven hundred thousand plus people who 335 00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:41,040 Speaker 5: live there. I'm a native Washingtonian. My dad still lives 336 00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:44,879 Speaker 5: in our family home in the city. And the fact 337 00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:52,200 Speaker 5: that you would have Republicans who who fundamentally have a slightly, no, 338 00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:55,280 Speaker 5: just a full on racist view of the city. They 339 00:18:55,359 --> 00:18:58,080 Speaker 5: still think it's chocolate city, you know, from back in 340 00:18:58,119 --> 00:19:01,440 Speaker 5: the day of Marion Barry and and the street thug 341 00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:04,359 Speaker 5: life that sort of pervaded in some parts of the city, 342 00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:07,720 Speaker 5: all of that that every urban community went through in 343 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:10,560 Speaker 5: the eighties and the nineties, in the early two thousands 344 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:14,120 Speaker 5: for example, that they just have this sort of pejorative 345 00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:17,560 Speaker 5: view of the city, a city that they barely know 346 00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:20,320 Speaker 5: because they barely spend any time in it, and it's 347 00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:22,600 Speaker 5: just a federal property that they think they can do 348 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:25,480 Speaker 5: whatever they want. But they're real people who live There 349 00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:29,159 Speaker 5: was no vote in the United States Congress that have 350 00:19:29,320 --> 00:19:33,800 Speaker 5: fought desperately for home rule. I very much remember when 351 00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:37,560 Speaker 5: home rule was passed and I worked on as a 352 00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:41,399 Speaker 5: young college student on the first Amendment to the Constitution 353 00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:45,879 Speaker 5: to give DC voting rights in nineteen seventy eight, and 354 00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:48,480 Speaker 5: to hear these people now sort of jerk around with 355 00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:53,560 Speaker 5: their money, largely these senators and members from Congress, mostly 356 00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:56,639 Speaker 5: members from Congress from places that are smaller than the 357 00:19:56,680 --> 00:20:03,480 Speaker 5: District of Columbia. It's offensive. Racial undertones are well documented, 358 00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:06,080 Speaker 5: and it's unfortunate. And so you would hope that there'll 359 00:20:06,119 --> 00:20:08,520 Speaker 5: be some friends out there who could fight for this city. 360 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:11,239 Speaker 5: To strip a billion dollars out of the budget, how 361 00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:13,160 Speaker 5: the hell you think they're going to run their police 362 00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:14,840 Speaker 5: and fire, how the hell you think they're going to 363 00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:18,359 Speaker 5: run the school system and provide the services to the 364 00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:20,719 Speaker 5: extent that your dumb ass still live in the city, 365 00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:23,200 Speaker 5: and you're going to be calling up the mayor saying, 366 00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:25,560 Speaker 5: why aren't you picking up the trash? Well, because you 367 00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:28,159 Speaker 5: took a billion dollars out of the budget, right, and 368 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:30,919 Speaker 5: because I'm not the governor of this of the state 369 00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:33,880 Speaker 5: of the District of Columbia. I'm a mayor and I've 370 00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:35,880 Speaker 5: got to make this stuff work. And when you cut 371 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:38,000 Speaker 5: my money, I can't make it work the way you 372 00:20:38,119 --> 00:20:40,920 Speaker 5: want it to work. So everybody kind of thinks the 373 00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:44,040 Speaker 5: things you just cut and everything will continue to run. 374 00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:48,679 Speaker 5: Not just run, not just run, Molly, but run better. 375 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:52,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, we're starting to see Republicans are trying 376 00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:55,520 Speaker 1: to pass the bill. They're now calling it this budget. 377 00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:57,680 Speaker 1: They're calling it the one big Beautiful Bell. 378 00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:03,080 Speaker 5: Because that's what Donald Trump calls it. So you know 379 00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:05,920 Speaker 5: when you're yeah, it's. 380 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:07,840 Speaker 1: Gonna you know, when you're traveling in the Gulf of 381 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:12,320 Speaker 1: America and in this one big beautiful bill, they need 382 00:21:12,359 --> 00:21:14,400 Speaker 1: to pay for these tax cuts. Right. 383 00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:18,000 Speaker 3: The whole game here, doge, Everything is to pay for 384 00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:18,679 Speaker 3: tax cuts. 385 00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:20,760 Speaker 1: It's to pay for the tax cuts that already happened 386 00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:23,080 Speaker 1: and the tax cuts that are coming. And the idea 387 00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:26,480 Speaker 1: here is that these tax cuts, by the way, the 388 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:29,920 Speaker 1: new ones, I don't know, you know, the old ones. 389 00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:31,879 Speaker 1: People are gonna be like, where's my tax cut? No, 390 00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:34,960 Speaker 1: we just extended the other ones, right, I mean, we're 391 00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:38,320 Speaker 1: not even you know, but even say the new ones come. 392 00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:42,359 Speaker 1: The problem is, now Elon had all these ideas he 393 00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:43,720 Speaker 1: was going to cut all this stuff. 394 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:46,040 Speaker 3: It turns out it's a lot harder than it looks. 395 00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:48,960 Speaker 5: It is a lot harder than it looks because when 396 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:52,880 Speaker 5: you rob from Peter to pay Paul, you realize, hell, 397 00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:57,200 Speaker 5: I gotta go and rob Paul to pay Pete. It's 398 00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:01,440 Speaker 5: all Look, it's a finite amount of mine. Period. It's 399 00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:04,000 Speaker 5: a bud Like any budget, there's a fine item if 400 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:06,479 Speaker 5: there's only so much that goes in and there's an 401 00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:10,439 Speaker 5: amount that goes out, and you're always constantly trying to 402 00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:14,040 Speaker 5: figure out the balance of those. And so when you say, 403 00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:17,040 Speaker 5: as the president of the United States that you want 404 00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:23,920 Speaker 5: a trillion dollar defense budget, okay, when does that come? Okay, Peter? Yeah, 405 00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:27,760 Speaker 5: you know, Paul wants a trillion dollar defense budget. Guess what, 406 00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:30,640 Speaker 5: I gotta grab a little bit from you to get there. 407 00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:34,520 Speaker 5: And that's the way this works. So you know, if 408 00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:37,159 Speaker 5: you stop and think about it, the only time in 409 00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:41,480 Speaker 5: our modern lifetime we've done seen the balancing the budget 410 00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:45,760 Speaker 5: was during Clinton's period. Clinton period in newk Enguage in 411 00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:49,840 Speaker 5: the House, and there was this sense of trying to 412 00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:54,840 Speaker 5: work towards some level of common goals, and they decided 413 00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:57,840 Speaker 5: what those goals were, and they put in motion the 414 00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:01,080 Speaker 5: steps necessary to do that. And while lot they balanced 415 00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:05,880 Speaker 5: the budget, there were compromises. There were things that Democrats 416 00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:10,159 Speaker 5: weren't happy about Republicans weren't happy about, but they ultimately 417 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:15,000 Speaker 5: resulted in a number of years of not just balance budgets, 418 00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:19,280 Speaker 5: but surpluses money that was then subsequently returned to the 419 00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:23,520 Speaker 5: public in some form. And so that's that's governing. That's 420 00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:27,199 Speaker 5: not what we're doing now. We're trying to placate a 421 00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:32,000 Speaker 5: particular class of people by giving them unfettered access to 422 00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:37,520 Speaker 5: cash and wealth. And for a lot of people that is, 423 00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:40,840 Speaker 5: like you just said, they're sitting here thinking that they're 424 00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:42,840 Speaker 5: going to get a tax cut. Well, you didn't get 425 00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:45,120 Speaker 5: a tax cut the last time, and the only thing 426 00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:47,960 Speaker 5: they want to do is extend those tax cuts now, 427 00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:51,399 Speaker 5: which means you still don't get a tax cut. And 428 00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:54,840 Speaker 5: so that's the hard, cruel reality. And it's eight hundred 429 00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:59,240 Speaker 5: and eighty billion dollars that's got to be made up somewhere. 430 00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:02,120 Speaker 5: And do you think that's going to come from. It's 431 00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:05,399 Speaker 5: coming from that school lunch program that you live that 432 00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:08,600 Speaker 5: you need in your little Mississippi district, comes from that 433 00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:12,720 Speaker 5: after school program that you need in your Alabama district. Yeah, 434 00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:16,480 Speaker 5: And the communities that are often hurt the most are 435 00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:19,800 Speaker 5: the ones clamoring the loudest for the thing that will 436 00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:22,840 Speaker 5: hurt them the most. And that's fundamentally because I don't 437 00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:26,199 Speaker 5: think they appreciate or understand just how they're impacted. I 438 00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:29,080 Speaker 5: talked to one guy who got excited by the fact 439 00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:31,840 Speaker 5: that he saw fifty dollars more in his paycheck every 440 00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:35,080 Speaker 5: two weeks from the last tax cut, and I say, well, 441 00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:37,639 Speaker 5: that's nice, because you know that guy over there, he 442 00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:39,760 Speaker 5: got a thousand. So there you are. 443 00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:43,040 Speaker 1: Why are people having such a hard time standing up 444 00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:45,639 Speaker 1: to Trump? Why is everyone so scared of him? And 445 00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:48,760 Speaker 1: I'm going to give you one example. Janet Mills, Governor 446 00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:52,479 Speaker 1: Mayne says, I'll see you in court on you know 447 00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:57,000 Speaker 1: the five trans kid athletes in Maine. Maybe there are ten, 448 00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:01,120 Speaker 1: Probably there are two or one. She goes to court, 449 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:05,920 Speaker 1: she wins. So why is why is everyone so scared 450 00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:06,280 Speaker 1: of Trump? 451 00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:10,280 Speaker 5: Because they're punks. They're punks. Bullies see them, bullies pick 452 00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:12,080 Speaker 5: them out. At the beginning of the school year, the 453 00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:15,320 Speaker 5: bully often walks the playground the first day or two 454 00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:18,720 Speaker 5: of school to size up, size up what's in the yard. 455 00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:23,480 Speaker 5: And Donald Trump has, over the four years that he 456 00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:28,399 Speaker 5: was waiting in the wings, sized up the yard and 457 00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:32,479 Speaker 5: has made promises to a number of these folks who 458 00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:36,320 Speaker 5: think they're actually going to get something right. Others he 459 00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:38,880 Speaker 5: wants to make an example of, and he knows who 460 00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:41,919 Speaker 5: he can make an example of. And the rest just 461 00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:44,439 Speaker 5: look there and tremble and say there, but for the 462 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:47,280 Speaker 5: grace of eye God goes I. You know, I don't 463 00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:50,040 Speaker 5: want I don't want that to happen to me. And 464 00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:52,280 Speaker 5: my question is why not? What do you think is 465 00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:54,400 Speaker 5: going to happen to you? Do you think that if 466 00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:56,959 Speaker 5: you give Donald Trump a billion dollars worth of pro 467 00:25:57,080 --> 00:25:59,000 Speaker 5: bono work, that he's not going to ask you to 468 00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:03,320 Speaker 5: represent so very unsavory characters that got in trouble because 469 00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:05,879 Speaker 5: of him. That's the pro bono work. It ain't It 470 00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:09,040 Speaker 5: ain't doing what you did with the Legal Aid Society, dumas. 471 00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:12,600 Speaker 5: It is exactly what Donald Trump wants you to do. 472 00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:15,439 Speaker 5: And now they're coming to realize that, Molly. They're like, 473 00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:19,000 Speaker 5: oh suddenly, now, oh so you mean we got to 474 00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:22,040 Speaker 5: represent who? Yes, Donald Trump has a list of people 475 00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:23,920 Speaker 5: that you need to take care of. Some of them 476 00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:27,160 Speaker 5: maybe January sixth, or some of them may be former 477 00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:31,960 Speaker 5: officials from his last administration. Whatever, I thank yourself, beholden 478 00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:35,479 Speaker 5: to the thug. You're going to get caught up in 479 00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:39,720 Speaker 5: thug things, and so I don't understand the fear, because 480 00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:43,080 Speaker 5: there are more examples of people standing up and winning 481 00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:47,320 Speaker 5: to your very point than there are people cow towing 482 00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:49,240 Speaker 5: and capitulating and winning. 483 00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:53,560 Speaker 3: True. Michael Steele, thank you, thank you, thank you. 484 00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:59,840 Speaker 1: Chris Hughes is an entrepreneur and author of Market Chapters 485 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:03,960 Speaker 1: one hundred year Struggle to Shape the American Economy. 486 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:05,880 Speaker 3: Welcome to Fast. 487 00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:07,800 Speaker 4: Politics, Chris, thanks for having me. 488 00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:12,280 Speaker 1: You're an economic historian and you have this book, Market Crafters, 489 00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:13,480 Speaker 1: which I want you to talk about. 490 00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:14,800 Speaker 3: What is a market crafter. 491 00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:18,919 Speaker 4: It's a policy maker who's guiding and harnessing a market 492 00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:23,560 Speaker 4: towards some political goal. So that could be making Americans richer, 493 00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:29,240 Speaker 4: making them safer, making their financial lives more stable. Their Republicans, 494 00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:33,080 Speaker 4: they're Democrats. And I track a lot of these cases 495 00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:36,760 Speaker 4: from the past to try to pull out lessons for today. 496 00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:38,120 Speaker 4: How are we going to build back on the other 497 00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:42,560 Speaker 4: side of the chaos and insanity of Trump's economic policy. 498 00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:47,399 Speaker 1: Give me a counterintuitive example of someone who is in 499 00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:47,879 Speaker 1: the book. 500 00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:51,359 Speaker 4: I kept focusing on counterintuitive examples that at one point 501 00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:54,560 Speaker 4: a colleague who had read through parts of the manuscript said, Okay, 502 00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:56,080 Speaker 4: you've got to get some more like bread and butter 503 00:27:56,160 --> 00:28:00,720 Speaker 4: vanilla people. So a lot of the characters are libertarians. Actually, 504 00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:04,639 Speaker 4: One that might be well known to some is a 505 00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:08,679 Speaker 4: Bill Simon, who was a bond trader on Wall Street 506 00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:11,199 Speaker 4: and a pretty gruff one, as they tended to be 507 00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:15,760 Speaker 4: in the nineteen sixties and nineteen seventies. And he goes 508 00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:18,960 Speaker 4: in auditions for a job with Richard Nixon in nineteen 509 00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:24,960 Speaker 4: seventy two after Nixon wins reelection, and he thinks he's 510 00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:28,520 Speaker 4: interviewing to become HUDs secretary, and in reality, George Schultz 511 00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:30,639 Speaker 4: wants him to be Deputy Secretary of the Treasury. So 512 00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:34,600 Speaker 4: he brings in this libertarian and they park maybe the 513 00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:37,720 Speaker 4: hardest set of problems on his desk, which is how 514 00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:43,840 Speaker 4: do you respond to rapidly escalating oil prices, which gets 515 00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:46,640 Speaker 4: much worse when the oil embargo happens in the fall 516 00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:50,000 Speaker 4: of nineteen seventy three after the Yan Kapoor War. So 517 00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:53,920 Speaker 4: this libertarian who came in thinking that government was mostly 518 00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:56,000 Speaker 4: not the answer, all of a sudden it has a 519 00:28:56,160 --> 00:29:00,840 Speaker 4: mission stabilize oil prices in shore that there are not 520 00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:03,840 Speaker 4: gas lines, and you know, in that period it was 521 00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:05,720 Speaker 4: really important to make sure there was enough home heating 522 00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:08,120 Speaker 4: oil in New England for that winter so that nobody 523 00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:10,280 Speaker 4: froze to death. So all of a sudden, this guy 524 00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:16,440 Speaker 4: becomes a market crafter. He makes very precise decisions around allocations. 525 00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:21,920 Speaker 4: He sets price controlled, he creates quotas for usage, and 526 00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:26,200 Speaker 4: creates a whole federal administration to a stockpile oil and 527 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:29,160 Speaker 4: gas to make sure that we don't chew through what 528 00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:32,200 Speaker 4: we have too quickly. And it was hard for me 529 00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:34,400 Speaker 4: to write because the guy is sort of an asshole, 530 00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:36,520 Speaker 4: like he's not a nice guy in his letters. But 531 00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:40,840 Speaker 4: he was successful. He actually helped heap down the cost 532 00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:43,840 Speaker 4: of gasoline to a pretty modest level, particularly when it 533 00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:47,840 Speaker 4: compared to what happened where doubled in Western Europe. Now 534 00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:51,320 Speaker 4: later in the decade, ironically it's a disaster. That's when 535 00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:53,880 Speaker 4: the gas lines that we all remember is in nineteen 536 00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:56,280 Speaker 4: seventy nine and the next gas I'm shocked. But he 537 00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:59,240 Speaker 4: had laid a framework for an effective market craft, despite 538 00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:00,880 Speaker 4: his liber tarian politics. 539 00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:03,920 Speaker 1: So we're in the middle of a kind of crisis 540 00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:07,600 Speaker 1: not so different than the gas crisis in a way. Right, 541 00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:16,120 Speaker 1: president doesn't understand mass decides to enact broad tariffs, totally unfocused. 542 00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:21,840 Speaker 1: What it does is it screeches the economy to a halt. 543 00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:27,120 Speaker 1: It reverses growth. So talk to me about what you 544 00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:31,480 Speaker 1: think the president for this is and what you've seen 545 00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:36,080 Speaker 1: sort of historically, how this kind of self perpetuated crisis 546 00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:37,360 Speaker 1: could get thought through. 547 00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:40,000 Speaker 4: Now, I went on a daily show on Monday and 548 00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:43,680 Speaker 4: John Stewart called Trump a market crasher instead of a 549 00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:46,480 Speaker 4: market crafter, which I thought was very clever, as John 550 00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:48,280 Speaker 4: Stewart can be. And so now I think I'm going 551 00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:51,000 Speaker 4: to use that term. I mean Trump is bludgeoning the 552 00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:56,960 Speaker 4: American economy. I mean the uncertainty alone from the impulsiveness 553 00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:01,040 Speaker 4: is causing us to likely high into recession. You know, 554 00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:03,040 Speaker 4: just this morning, aren't we in it? 555 00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:06,120 Speaker 1: Because of the now we're oh, it's got to be 556 00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:08,680 Speaker 1: two quarters, right of negative. 557 00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:11,840 Speaker 4: Growth, exactly quarters of negative growth. But the point is 558 00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:15,840 Speaker 4: is the economy is right now is contracting. Consumers are 559 00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:19,720 Speaker 4: less confident than they have been in five years, which 560 00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:23,680 Speaker 4: you know was literally this the pandemic spring, when we 561 00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:25,760 Speaker 4: were all locked up in our houses at the very 562 00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:32,280 Speaker 4: beginning inflation expectations are up, investor uncertainty is up, and 563 00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:35,400 Speaker 4: there's a lot of questions around whether investors are going 564 00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:38,960 Speaker 4: to flee American assets and dollar denominated assets across the board. 565 00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:42,920 Speaker 4: So this is a big self inflicted problem. The question 566 00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:44,800 Speaker 4: is is, first off, how we're going to get through 567 00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:47,080 Speaker 4: it for the next couple of years, and then how 568 00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:49,280 Speaker 4: we're going to rebuild on the other side. I'm afraid 569 00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:51,400 Speaker 4: it is going to get worse before it gets better. 570 00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:53,920 Speaker 4: I think there will be a recession and we'll see 571 00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:58,080 Speaker 4: how deep it goes. But Democrats and progressives are going 572 00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:00,880 Speaker 4: to need to be able to say, hey, we understand 573 00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:03,680 Speaker 4: the economic challenges that are in front of us. Right now. 574 00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:07,840 Speaker 4: It's high costs, housing, groceries, care. Eventually it's going to 575 00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:11,960 Speaker 4: be jobs increasingly, and we have a plan to bring 576 00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:15,280 Speaker 4: down those costs and create the jobs that Americans want 577 00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:17,680 Speaker 4: to see. And Americans, you know, they're wary of that 578 00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:20,320 Speaker 4: after Bidenomics. But in my view, that plan is going 579 00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:23,120 Speaker 4: to have to involve market crafting. It's going to have 580 00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:26,040 Speaker 4: to say these are the industries of the future me 581 00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:28,640 Speaker 4: to the jobs that we need, and these are the 582 00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:31,239 Speaker 4: costs that need to be stabilized, and we got to 583 00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:34,440 Speaker 4: use all of the tools that we have to make 584 00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:39,280 Speaker 4: the economy work for everyday people, not just investors and 585 00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:40,680 Speaker 4: the people who do the best. 586 00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:46,320 Speaker 1: So dollar flight, let's talk about dollar flight. There is 587 00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:51,760 Speaker 1: a real anxiety. The reason people have said that Trump 588 00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:55,800 Speaker 1: stopped the tariffs was because of the bond market. Because 589 00:32:55,840 --> 00:33:00,160 Speaker 1: the bond market usually the stock market goes down, the 590 00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:02,560 Speaker 1: bond market goes up, right, because the money goes from 591 00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:06,560 Speaker 1: stocks to bombs. This time the money didn't go to bonds, 592 00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:12,560 Speaker 1: which meant that perhaps there was dollar flight, or that 593 00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:16,040 Speaker 1: there is the possibility of dollar flight. So I want 594 00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:19,240 Speaker 1: you to explain to our listeners what that is, what 595 00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:22,160 Speaker 1: that means, and if there's a historical president for it. 596 00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:26,400 Speaker 4: Yeah. I think there are three ingredients that are creating 597 00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:30,600 Speaker 4: a perfect storm. The first is the tariffs and the 598 00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:34,360 Speaker 4: instability that Trump is introduced with them. The second is 599 00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:38,480 Speaker 4: the threat to fire J. Powell and potentially other members 600 00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:41,480 Speaker 4: of the Board of Governors at the Federal Reserve, which 601 00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:46,560 Speaker 4: if followed through, could make monetary policy really a political project, 602 00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:50,520 Speaker 4: which could mean chronic inflation as many countries have seen. 603 00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:56,400 Speaker 4: And then the third issue is the existing size of 604 00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:59,840 Speaker 4: the budget deficit, and what the Republicans plan to do 605 00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:02,320 Speaker 4: in this tax bill. And I think the third is 606 00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:05,720 Speaker 4: the least talked about and maybe the most important. Last year, 607 00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:09,640 Speaker 4: the budget deficit was seven percent of GDP. That's very 608 00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:13,399 Speaker 4: high for a healthy economy. And if the Republicans pass 609 00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:15,840 Speaker 4: the spending package that they're talking about, the size of 610 00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:19,000 Speaker 4: that is the tax cut from the first Trump term 611 00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:23,440 Speaker 4: plus all of the COVID stimulus spending, plus the Biden 612 00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:27,440 Speaker 4: infrastructure bill in this one bill, further running up the 613 00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:32,480 Speaker 4: deficit and giving international investors anxiety. Can the United States 614 00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:36,000 Speaker 4: actually make good on its commitment to pay the coupon 615 00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:40,240 Speaker 4: on its outstanding debt? And so as people see that happening, 616 00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:45,320 Speaker 4: they are rightly seeking for safer assets in the global system. 617 00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:48,880 Speaker 4: And that could be gold, that could be European military companies, 618 00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:54,080 Speaker 4: the bonds, yeah, exactly, European bonds from Germany, for instance, 619 00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:56,840 Speaker 4: are attractive to a lot of investors. That can create 620 00:34:56,920 --> 00:35:00,480 Speaker 4: a real flight from the dollar, significantly weaking it and 621 00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:02,880 Speaker 4: making it much more expensive for us to have the 622 00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:05,200 Speaker 4: kind of fiscal policy make the kind of investments that 623 00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:06,640 Speaker 4: we want to make as a country. 624 00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:07,239 Speaker 3: Exactly. 625 00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:10,799 Speaker 1: It will also mean that our debt will be significantly 626 00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:16,800 Speaker 1: more expensive to service. Explain what sort of downstream consequences 627 00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:18,399 Speaker 1: of more expensive debt are. 628 00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:21,520 Speaker 4: The federal government in any given year has a meaningful 629 00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:24,000 Speaker 4: portion of the budget that goes to pay off the debt. 630 00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:27,200 Speaker 4: But it's just like with a household if the rate 631 00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:30,320 Speaker 4: on your credit card goes up, even if the balance 632 00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:32,479 Speaker 4: is still the same, you've got to pay more every 633 00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:35,960 Speaker 4: single month from your income to just keep servicing the debt. 634 00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:39,200 Speaker 4: So the concern is that all of this excess fiscal 635 00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:44,520 Speaker 4: spending will either cause meaningful inflation, which means that interest 636 00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:47,640 Speaker 4: rates will have to be higher for longer, making it 637 00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:51,520 Speaker 4: more expensive for government to borrow, or that we head 638 00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:56,000 Speaker 4: into an extended period of stagflation when inflation is high 639 00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:58,480 Speaker 4: and unemployment is low and the central Bank doesn't have 640 00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:02,040 Speaker 4: isn't able to it's normal tools to get us out 641 00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:04,920 Speaker 4: of it, to do the basic sort of pinsy and 642 00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:08,319 Speaker 4: macroeconomic smoothing that should happen in coordination to central Bank 643 00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:11,680 Speaker 4: and the Congress. So that's the concern. I think it's 644 00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:15,080 Speaker 4: been a concern for a few years. Of ten years ago, 645 00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:17,480 Speaker 4: it wasn't so much of a concern because interest rates 646 00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:20,440 Speaker 4: had been low for so long. Now they're higher and 647 00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:23,920 Speaker 4: could in theory go even higher, and so investors are 648 00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:26,920 Speaker 4: rightly you watching that with anxiety and concern. 649 00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:30,120 Speaker 1: So we had the dollar flight, and we have this 650 00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:34,560 Speaker 1: problem with the debt. Stagflation is a word we don't 651 00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:37,200 Speaker 1: talk about very much because it's so scary. 652 00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:39,600 Speaker 3: I was born in nineteen seventy eight. 653 00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:42,160 Speaker 1: So stagflation when I was a baby, that was like 654 00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:46,400 Speaker 1: a big issue. I make everyone on this podcast explain 655 00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:49,680 Speaker 1: what stagflation is, so I think that people who listen 656 00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:52,680 Speaker 1: to this know that things get more expensive. But you're 657 00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:55,520 Speaker 1: also in a recession, so there's just no way out. 658 00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:59,880 Speaker 1: Talk to me about what Vulgar did and why that is. 659 00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:02,400 Speaker 3: Sorry, I'm a real nerd here when it comes to 660 00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:03,240 Speaker 3: this kind of stuff. 661 00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:05,360 Speaker 4: I've come to the right place because I have a 662 00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:08,680 Speaker 4: whole chapter on the Vulgar Shock, and I tell the 663 00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:12,279 Speaker 4: story of this woman on Nancy Teeters, who is the 664 00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:17,120 Speaker 4: first female governor of the Federal Reserve, who served with 665 00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:22,920 Speaker 4: Vulcar and became the sort of person the symbolic contrast 666 00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:26,280 Speaker 4: to a lot of the Vulgar Shock. So her story 667 00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:29,360 Speaker 4: begins decades before, but she becomes a fed governor. In 668 00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:33,080 Speaker 4: the late nineteen seventies, inflation's very high. Paul Vulker, who 669 00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:35,040 Speaker 4: had been the president of New York Fed, becomes the 670 00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:38,040 Speaker 4: Chair of the Federal Reserve, appointed by Carter, who wants 671 00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:42,320 Speaker 4: someone to finally get inflation under control. Vulker comes into 672 00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:45,040 Speaker 4: the building. He's just a few weeks in. They're doing 673 00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:48,440 Speaker 4: some marginal rate hikes, and the markets balk. They think 674 00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:50,319 Speaker 4: that he's not going to be strong enough. So he 675 00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:53,160 Speaker 4: decides to effectively tear up the rule book that the 676 00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:58,120 Speaker 4: FED has abided by since its beginning and throw out 677 00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:02,160 Speaker 4: to kind of mandate for order literally well managed stable 678 00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:05,880 Speaker 4: money markets, and say we're not going to target interest 679 00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:09,080 Speaker 4: rates at all. We're going to do something different, get 680 00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:12,080 Speaker 4: reserve targeting. The details of it don't really matter. The 681 00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:15,520 Speaker 4: point is we're going to use a different framework to 682 00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:20,120 Speaker 4: really really constrict the money supply. And so it's like 683 00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:23,880 Speaker 4: a train screeching to a halt. It throws the entire 684 00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:26,920 Speaker 4: economy into the deep freeze, and you had the worst 685 00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:30,240 Speaker 4: recession in the United States since the Great Depression between 686 00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:34,120 Speaker 4: nineteen eighty one and nineteen eighty three, purposefully cost by 687 00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:37,120 Speaker 4: the monetary policy of the Vulcar fed now Nancy Teeters. 688 00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:40,480 Speaker 4: Initially she votes for it, even though her politics are 689 00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:43,680 Speaker 4: left she generally favors looser monetary policy, but she goes 690 00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:46,600 Speaker 4: along with it, believing that they have to do something 691 00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:49,120 Speaker 4: dramatic and rates might be able to go up quickly, 692 00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:51,360 Speaker 4: but they'll be able to come down quickly. But then 693 00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:53,880 Speaker 4: a little bit over a year later, she begins making 694 00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:59,960 Speaker 4: these really principal dissents, which are thoughtfully considered and clear 695 00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:05,240 Speaker 4: that they should stop using this experimental methodology for monetary policy, 696 00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:08,920 Speaker 4: move back to something that creates orderly and stable markets, 697 00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:12,760 Speaker 4: and step down from these high interest rates gradually rather 698 00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:14,440 Speaker 4: than just holding on to them. And so if you 699 00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:17,600 Speaker 4: look back, most historians and economists see the Volker shock 700 00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:22,279 Speaker 4: as broadly a good intervention because it's squelched inflation. But 701 00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:26,960 Speaker 4: they also I think that the recession didn't have to 702 00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:29,040 Speaker 4: last as long as it did, and it didn't have 703 00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:33,520 Speaker 4: to be as deposited, and Teeters offered a third way, 704 00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:36,000 Speaker 4: a more modest route forward. And so I think her 705 00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:38,120 Speaker 4: story is really important because if we're going to head 706 00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:41,480 Speaker 4: into another period like that, there are going to be 707 00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:43,840 Speaker 4: some people who want to pair a Paul Volker, and 708 00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:46,560 Speaker 4: we need some of these templates from history to help 709 00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:48,719 Speaker 4: us see how to do this in a way that 710 00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:50,240 Speaker 4: is more practical. 711 00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:53,800 Speaker 1: I take I'm sorry to do this too. The COVID 712 00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:59,359 Speaker 1: response was a response to the two thousand and eight 713 00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:00,759 Speaker 1: financial crisis. 714 00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:04,840 Speaker 4: Well, the size of it definitely was Biden and the 715 00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:07,440 Speaker 4: crew were very clear that they'd rather go big than 716 00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:11,200 Speaker 4: go too small, because after the Great Financial Crisis there 717 00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:13,440 Speaker 4: was a consensus that it was too modest. It was 718 00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:15,839 Speaker 4: too modest. I think that they were right to err 719 00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:18,239 Speaker 4: on the side of being more robust. It was a 720 00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:20,560 Speaker 4: lot of money, It was a lot of spending. In retrospect, 721 00:40:20,560 --> 00:40:22,520 Speaker 4: it probably could have been a little bit a smaller, 722 00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:26,520 Speaker 4: but I think directionally it meant that we had the 723 00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:30,480 Speaker 4: fastest recovery in terms of jobs than we've had from 724 00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:34,239 Speaker 4: any recession, and the inflation that came afterward was not 725 00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:37,960 Speaker 4: caused by that spending. I mean, the best economic analysis 726 00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:42,120 Speaker 4: by centrist economists like Ben Bernanke and Alleviate Mancha and 727 00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:45,320 Speaker 4: people like that say that of the nine percent peak inflation, 728 00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:49,160 Speaker 4: at most two percent of it was caused by excess 729 00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:51,400 Speaker 4: spending on the demand side. The rest of it was 730 00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:54,520 Speaker 4: called by all those supply chain bottlenecks, and this rapid 731 00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:59,200 Speaker 4: shift in consumer demand from away from services towards goods, 732 00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:03,200 Speaker 4: towards lumber, towards cars, towards all those things that we remember. 733 00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:06,279 Speaker 4: So I think that not just the COVID stimulus, but 734 00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:09,919 Speaker 4: a lot of the bids economic agenda was actually right 735 00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:13,560 Speaker 4: on point, and in the domain of politics. Because of 736 00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:18,120 Speaker 4: the rapid escalation of inflation, Democrats got flowered. Biden and 737 00:41:18,239 --> 00:41:20,640 Speaker 4: teams should have been paying attention to that more. They 738 00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:23,880 Speaker 4: should have spoken to that as a real issue earlier 739 00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:25,960 Speaker 4: and not done this thing that says like, oh, well, 740 00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:28,200 Speaker 4: jobs are good and wages are going up, so don't 741 00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:31,600 Speaker 4: worry too much about the inflation like this was incredibly 742 00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:35,799 Speaker 4: tone deaf and wrong. And it's also still true that 743 00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:39,960 Speaker 4: the core pieces of Bidenomics investment in clean energy, investment 744 00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:44,960 Speaker 4: in semiconductor construction here here at home for national security reasons, 745 00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:48,760 Speaker 4: the bipars and infrastructure law, the COVID student these things 746 00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:52,360 Speaker 4: were good pieces of policy that helped a lot of 747 00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:56,160 Speaker 4: people in the immediate aftermath of their passage and continue 748 00:41:56,160 --> 00:41:58,000 Speaker 4: to today. So I think we have to be more 749 00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:00,000 Speaker 4: precise when we talk about all this stuff. 750 00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:05,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's right. And I also think that 751 00:42:05,160 --> 00:42:09,400 Speaker 1: Chips and Science is clearly Trump when he wants to 752 00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:14,359 Speaker 1: onshore manufacturing. What he wants to do is chips and science, right, 753 00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:17,520 Speaker 1: What he wants to do is build in the United States. 754 00:42:17,840 --> 00:42:20,239 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, the Chips Act started and Trump won 755 00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:23,359 Speaker 4: the idea. The germ of the idea was from Keith Krack, 756 00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:26,760 Speaker 4: the Undersecretary of Economic Affairs at the State Department, and 757 00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:28,880 Speaker 4: some folks on the hill in Congress, and it got 758 00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:31,960 Speaker 4: a lot of traction. There were, you know, advanced discussions, 759 00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:34,319 Speaker 4: which meant that the wheels had increased. And so when 760 00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:37,240 Speaker 4: the Biden folks came in, I mean they significantly experided 761 00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:39,880 Speaker 4: its size, its scope, and rethought the structure to it. 762 00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:43,440 Speaker 4: And it was a bipartisan piece of legislation that a 763 00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:45,799 Speaker 4: lot of Republicans voted for. And even now, you know, 764 00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:48,080 Speaker 4: Trump says he's against it. I think that's just like 765 00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:51,040 Speaker 4: he's against anything that happened in the Biden years. But 766 00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:55,920 Speaker 4: there are many congressional Republicans who I believe in it 767 00:42:55,960 --> 00:42:59,680 Speaker 4: because it's creating jobs in their districts, and not to 768 00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:02,279 Speaker 4: mention the national security implications of what it means for 769 00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:05,000 Speaker 4: us to be back in the business of building and 770 00:43:05,040 --> 00:43:06,839 Speaker 4: creating these advanced chips. 771 00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:10,040 Speaker 3: Very very interesting. Thank you, Chris. 772 00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:11,279 Speaker 4: Yeah, thanks for having me. 773 00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:14,560 Speaker 5: No Mo. 774 00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:21,560 Speaker 2: Jesse Cannon Bi jug Fast We know around these parts 775 00:43:21,719 --> 00:43:25,399 Speaker 2: Pritzker fan club, Governor Pritzker and Illinois. Just he's really 776 00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:28,000 Speaker 2: leading the way on how to fight back against this administration. 777 00:43:28,280 --> 00:43:30,080 Speaker 2: And I really like this that he's going to sign 778 00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:34,040 Speaker 2: the first nation executive order protecting autism data. 779 00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:37,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, because honestly, fuck RFK Junior. 780 00:43:37,239 --> 00:43:40,279 Speaker 2: Can we say that, Yes, that's legal to say. 781 00:43:40,440 --> 00:43:41,520 Speaker 3: He's our moment of fuck. 782 00:43:41,520 --> 00:43:45,440 Speaker 1: Great, Good for Pritzker yet again, this is becoming the 783 00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:50,759 Speaker 1: Pritzker fan podcast. Good for him, that's correct. Don't let 784 00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:53,719 Speaker 1: r of K Junior get anyone's data. And you know, 785 00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:56,879 Speaker 1: by the way it is, it's worth wondering why this 786 00:43:57,000 --> 00:44:01,040 Speaker 1: administration is so hot for data, right, why they're constantly 787 00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:05,000 Speaker 1: fighting to get our data. It's just something interesting to 788 00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:08,760 Speaker 1: think about. But yes, RFK Junior, you are once again 789 00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:10,120 Speaker 1: our moment of fuck. Right. 790 00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:14,120 Speaker 3: That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. 791 00:44:14,600 --> 00:44:20,319 Speaker 1: Tune in every Monday, Wednesday, Thursday and Saturday to hear 792 00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:24,960 Speaker 1: the best minds and politics make sense of all this chaos. 793 00:44:25,239 --> 00:44:28,080 Speaker 1: If you enjoy this podcast, please send it to a 794 00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:30,560 Speaker 1: friend and keep the conversation going. 795 00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:32,120 Speaker 3: Thanks for listening.