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Speaker 1: Has bitcoin fallen under the same fate that gold's been

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Speaker 1: suffering for decades. I'm talking about paper markets driving spot prices. Now.

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Speaker 1: A lot of people want to look at JP Morgan,

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Speaker 1: which of course have gotten in trouble for manipulating gold markets,

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Speaker 1: and today they might be manipulating bitcoin markets as well.

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Speaker 1: My guest today, Eric Weise. He's famously known as the

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Speaker 1: person who orange pilled Michael Saylor. Actually he's on this

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Speaker 1: interview today for Michael Sailor's yacht. He's been working with

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Speaker 1: high net worth billionaires for a long time. He's at

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Speaker 1: the forefront of institutional adoption, and he believes that paper

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Speaker 1: bitcoin may be one of the greatest threats to the

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Speaker 1: market that we're facing today. We're going to talk about

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Speaker 1: his solutions as to what he thinks can solve it,

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Speaker 1: the potential risk that he sees as this all develops,

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Speaker 1: and what you should be paying attention to if you

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Speaker 1: want to build wealth in this new age. It's a

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Speaker 1: great conversation with Eric. Let's just go ahead, jump right

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Speaker 1: into it. Eric, thanks so much for jumping in. Always

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Speaker 1: a pleasure talking to you. I can't wait to dig

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Speaker 1: in here.

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Speaker 2: Let's start off question. Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 1: Let's start with a big question here that we're going

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Speaker 1: to dive deep into bitcoin, treasuries, the new financial engineering

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Speaker 1: arms race, if you will, would you say, is this

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Speaker 1: the birth of a new financial system or leverage and

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Speaker 1: regulation trap waiting to snapshot?

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Speaker 2: I think it's just pragmatic behavior from corporations, right. I think,

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Speaker 2: if we like zoom out a little bit, most companies

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Speaker 2: don't survive for that long. And one of the main

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Speaker 2: reasons companies don't survive that long is they give away

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Speaker 2: their capital that they earn, and they do it in

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Speaker 2: the forms of dividends and buybacks. And these big companies

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Speaker 2: will give back billions and hundreds of billions of dollars

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Speaker 2: over the years. And the reason they do that is

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Speaker 2: investors will punish you as a company for holding US

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Speaker 2: dollars and they say, hey, you're holding onto this cash.

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Speaker 2: If you don't have a better use for it, give

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Speaker 2: it back. And so I think what companies are doing,

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Speaker 2: and treasury companies are doing that exclusively, but just regular companies.

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Speaker 2: It would make sense for any company that has cash

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Speaker 2: on the balance sheet hold it in something that is

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Speaker 2: going to appreciate or not, you know, inflate away so

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Speaker 2: that you're purchasing power is getting destroyed and hang on

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Speaker 2: to that capital for the future so that you can

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Speaker 2: retool and compete down the road instead of returning that capital.

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Speaker 2: And so I think bitcoin treasury companies are an extreme

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Speaker 2: version of that where people are saying the capital is

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Speaker 2: the main thing. We want to focus on the capital.

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Speaker 2: Bitcoin's in this relatively nascent stage. We know or believe

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Speaker 2: strongly that it's going to emerge into into this store

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Speaker 2: of value, and so we want to get as much

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Speaker 2: of it as we can now, and we're happy to

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Speaker 2: engage in an arbitrage where we're giving away some percentage

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Speaker 2: in interest in order to get the money now so

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Speaker 2: that we can have of that annual gain that we

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Speaker 2: perceive being kind of pretty solid and predictable. And Bitcoin

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Speaker 2: in the future.

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Speaker 1: Certainly we know that it's the best store value, has

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Speaker 1: been the best store value now for seventeen years, and

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Speaker 1: so of course it makes sense. And I love the

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Speaker 1: way that you frame that up with businesses don't know

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Speaker 1: what to do with their cash, they return it, but

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Speaker 1: we have businesses, and then should they find a better

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Speaker 1: way to store their cash, and then we have treasury

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Speaker 1: strategy companies, and then so I think there's a differentiation there,

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Speaker 1: which we'll dig into. But if we think about one

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Speaker 1: thing that I'm seeing, and I try to kind of

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Speaker 1: break down to people, is how different what treasury strategy

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Speaker 1: companies are doing versus traditional businesses, One of which is

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Speaker 1: that the entire financial world is based off of discounted

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Speaker 1: future cash flows and like pe ratios, Right, so we're

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Speaker 1: buying a stock at a ratio based off of where

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Speaker 1: their cash flows will be in the future, and maybe

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Speaker 1: not as true today, but under the traditional lens of

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Speaker 1: Warren Buffett value investor lens, I'm buying this company because

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Speaker 1: I believe in those future cash flows and so yeah,

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Speaker 1: they should return some of those cash flows to me.

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Speaker 1: Versus a treasury strategy company is about trying to grow

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Speaker 1: the asset base, which is a different strategy altogether, isn't it.

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Speaker 2: It is, But you'd also be happy to put your

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Speaker 2: money in something that the value of it was going

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Speaker 2: to go up if you have liquidity and can take

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Speaker 2: it out anytime. So I think from an operating business

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Speaker 2: point of view, it's still a good business model. I

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Speaker 2: think what treasury if you want to get into, what

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Speaker 2: is the business of treasury companies. They're not just holding companies,

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Speaker 2: they're not just financial engineering. They're taking bitcoin and they're

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Speaker 2: refining it in a way that appeals to different investor groups.

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Speaker 2: There are convertible bond investors, they're preferred stock investors. There

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Speaker 2: are folks that like all different kinds of credit instruments.

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Speaker 2: They are equity investors. And what you're doing is you're

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Speaker 2: taking bitcoin, You're underpinning that security with bitcoin, and then

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Speaker 2: you're giving that investor a percentage of the return that

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Speaker 2: we anticipate on getting on bitcoin. And the reason that

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Speaker 2: works is we have such a high estimation, guarantee, certainty

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Speaker 2: belief in the return on bitcoin that we're able to

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Speaker 2: strip off varying degrees of that return and give it

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Speaker 2: to different investors. So if you look at you know,

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Speaker 2: in the purest form STRC strategies, preferred stock, which is

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Speaker 2: currently paying an eleven percent annual dividend, pays monthly. What

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Speaker 2: they've done there is they've said, Okay, you may not

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Speaker 2: like bitcoin, but you like eleven percent return with monthly pay.

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Speaker 2: We'll take the rest of the upside that we are

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Speaker 2: certain is there with bitcoin. We'll strip off eleven percent

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Speaker 2: we'll make it in a structure where the rate ratchets

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Speaker 2: up or will sell more to keep the prices close

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Speaker 2: to part as we can. So we'll strip away the volatility.

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Speaker 2: We'll give you I think in strategies view probably a

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Speaker 2: third of the yield and we'll keep two thirds of

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Speaker 2: the yield. And so it's refining bitcoin or domesticating bitcoin

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Speaker 2: in a way that different investor groups like. And when

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Speaker 2: you do that, you get their capital and fresh capital,

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Speaker 2: and that allows you to buy more bitcoin. So for

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Speaker 2: the common shareholder, because all of these businesses have to

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Speaker 2: benefit the common shareholder, right, Your fiduciary responsibility always goes

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Speaker 2: to the common shareholder, not a debt hoolder, not a

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Speaker 2: preferred holder. Your fiduciary responsibilities are to the common shareholder.

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Speaker 2: And if the common shareholder as a result of this

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Speaker 2: is waking up with more bitcoin per share, then they

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Speaker 2: went to sleep with, then the exercise is worth doing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I've spent so much time down in

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Speaker 1: this rabbit hole. It seems so obvious to me. And

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Speaker 1: we have very similar, similar adjacent business models in the

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Speaker 1: world where like a bank takes deposits, they pay a

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Speaker 1: yield on those deposits I'll be very low, but they

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Speaker 1: pay a yield and then they invest those deposits, loaning

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Speaker 1: them back out, and then they make a spread. And

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Speaker 1: it's not just banks, I mean other asset heavy businesses.

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Speaker 1: You might have a gold mining company, for example, right

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Speaker 1: receive shareholder capital, invest into assets in the ground. They

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Speaker 1: expect those asked to be worth more in the future.

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Speaker 1: They pay out a yield or whatever. And so it

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Speaker 1: seems very common, but for some reason, the majority of

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Speaker 1: people just can't seem to figure out even though we

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Speaker 1: have these parallels, what do you think that what do

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Speaker 1: you think is blocking most people from just sort of

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Speaker 1: realizing the simplicity and the elegance of that model.

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Speaker 2: I think the reason it's challenging for some people to

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Speaker 2: accept it is they start with a cynical view of bitcoin,

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Speaker 2: and so the fact that this is based on bitcoin,

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Speaker 2: all of a sudden, they're like, Oh, this is a scam,

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Speaker 2: this is part of a scam. They're leveraging up a scam,

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Speaker 2: and their brand is already predisposed to view it negatively,

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Speaker 2: you know. But there's been there have been great feedback

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Speaker 2: from and I shouldn't mention their names, but you know,

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Speaker 2: very high profile, well known pioneers who pioneered high yield

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Speaker 2: debt and shelf registrations, at ms and things of that nature,

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Speaker 2: who were never fully appreciated for their innovations. And they've

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Speaker 2: seen what strategies done, and you know they've conveyed to

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Speaker 2: Michael you know just how you know incredible his his

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Speaker 2: usage of these financial instruments has been so it is

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Speaker 2: you know, financial engineering almost has a derogatory hint to it,

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Speaker 2: but it's pretty incredible that you know that that strategy

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Speaker 2: and others are kind of teaching Wall Street how best

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Speaker 2: to use some of these tools that have been around

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Speaker 2: on for a long time.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I would agree with you. I mean, if you

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Speaker 1: don't believe in bitcoin's long term appreciation and long term

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Speaker 1: use case, then none of them makes any sense, Like

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Speaker 1: why would you even go into them? And sure, I

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Speaker 1: guess I could be a yield investor because they're guaranteeing

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Speaker 1: they have assets, so okay, I'll trust the yield. I

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Speaker 1: don't believe in what you're doing, but I believe in

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Speaker 1: your collateral base or your ability to repay. But from

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Speaker 1: a from a main standpoint, yeah, if you don't believe

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Speaker 1: in the long term use case of bitcoin, then it

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Speaker 1: doesn't really make sense. But then I would ask the question, then,

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Speaker 1: why do most bitcoiners misunderstand not even be able to

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Speaker 1: understand what's going on because they obviously believe the bitcoin

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Speaker 1: use case.

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Speaker 2: I don't know that miss most bitcoiners do misunderstand. I

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Speaker 2: think there's a difference between most bitcoiners and the bitcoiners.

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Speaker 1: On Okay, good point.

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Speaker 2: So you know, we all spend a lot of time

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Speaker 2: on that platform, which I love, where there's actually free speech. However,

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Speaker 2: there are a lot of people on the planet and

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Speaker 2: most of them aren't on x and Strategy, for example,

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Speaker 2: has fifty five million beneficial shareholders. So there are an

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Speaker 2: awful lot of direct and indirect investors who do get

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Speaker 2: it and do believe in it. And that's just the

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Speaker 2: common stock. Then you've got you know, all the uh,

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Speaker 2: all the other securities that people hold. So I think

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Speaker 2: there are I think there are a number of believers.

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Speaker 2: But you know, bitcoin bitcoin maximalists have such a strong

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Speaker 2: views and uh, it's always struck me as peculiar that

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Speaker 2: for an asset like bitcoin that's all about freedom, that

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Speaker 2: a lot of bitcoin maximalists uh don't seem to want

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Speaker 2: to extend the freedom to people of how they choose

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Speaker 2: to Bitcoin.

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Speaker 1: Of interesting, I think a lot of a bitcoin is

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Speaker 1: also sort of come in with this sound money thesis

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Speaker 1: and this deflationary currency, and so all you have to

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Speaker 1: do is just hold it and that's all you have

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Speaker 1: to do, which is true. You can just hoddle bitcoin

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Speaker 1: and outperform pretty much everybody else, you know, the funds,

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Speaker 1: et cetera. But they fail to understand the greater financial

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Speaker 1: system that we have today. For example, just for example,

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Speaker 1: the three hundred trillion dollars of demand for yield products.

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Speaker 1: And if I'm seventy eight years old, I need yield.

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Speaker 1: I need to pay for my medicine, and I need

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Speaker 1: to pay for my rent, and I can't hoddle for

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Speaker 1: five years. I can't. I'm seventy eight or whatever, right,

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Speaker 1: and so I need yield today, And like bitcoinners, so

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Speaker 1: then those people shouldn't They should just die. They can't hoddle,

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Speaker 1: so then they're cut out, and so like, they just

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Speaker 1: fail to understand the way the world is working in

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Speaker 1: the demand for these types of and the need for

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Speaker 1: these types of things.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, our obligations in life are in fiat and we've

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Speaker 2: got to make mortgage payments, rent payments, car payments, whatever,

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Speaker 2: you know, food payments, whatever it is that we're that

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Speaker 2: we need our money for. And some of these yield

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Speaker 2: products are great for that because if you understand the

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Speaker 2: collateral a little bit, and something like Stretch doesn't scare

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Speaker 2: you because you think five times over collateralized with bitcoin

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Speaker 2: of a product that's yielding eleven percent is sufficiently secure

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Speaker 2: for you. Then you can put some money in that

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Speaker 2: and you'll have income and cash flow that you can

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Speaker 2: you know, live in a feat world and and that

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Speaker 2: will allow you to kind of leave your bitcoin stash

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Speaker 2: untouched through the volatility.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And like I said, I mean maybe you're older,

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Speaker 1: you can't you can't hoddle for five years and they

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Speaker 1: can't handle the volatility.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I look at it also as like, you know, two

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Speaker 1: types of people in the world. You have consumers and creators,

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Speaker 1: and so the creators are always going to create more

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Speaker 1: than they consume. And so I think there's always two

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Speaker 1: truths that will be there. And a lot of bitcoiners

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Speaker 1: maybe don't understand this, and so I'll get your take,

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Speaker 1: But like there's always going to be people who have

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Speaker 1: created more than they've consumed and so they have they

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Speaker 1: have saving and they're gonna want to loan that out,

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Speaker 1: and they're gonna need yield because you said, you know,

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Speaker 1: they need their pay their expenses. And then there's always

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Speaker 1: people that need to borrow. I need to expand my operations,

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Speaker 1: I need to build factory equipment. Like, there's always a

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Speaker 1: demand for borrowing, and there's always people that want to

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Speaker 1: loan it out. And so why wouldn't that just happen

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Speaker 1: on the bitcoin asset base as opposed to a fiat base.

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Speaker 1: Every day we see headlines about inflation and dead and

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Speaker 1: diminishing control over our own money. That's why I always

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Speaker 1: come back to bitcoin because it's built for generations, it's

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Speaker 1: built for legacy. But protecting your bitcoin legacy the right

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Speaker 1: way is not always simple. It demands discipline, focus, and

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Speaker 1: the right partner. Now that's why I personally use unchained Signature.

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Speaker 1: It's a premium private client service for serious bitcoin holders

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Speaker 1: who want expert guidance, resilient custody, and enduring partnership. Now Signature,

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00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:52,960
Speaker 1: you're paired with your own dedicated account manager, someone who

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Speaker 1: understands your goals helps you every step of the way.

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Speaker 1: You're gonna get white glove onboarding, same day emergency support person,

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Speaker 1: realized education or reduce trading fees, and priority access to

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Speaker 1: exclusive events and features. Unchained Collaborative Custody model is designed

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Speaker 1: to provide the same security as the world's biggest bitcoin custodians,

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Speaker 1: but for those who prefer to hold their own keys. Now.

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Speaker 1: I've been using and recommending unchained for years. I even

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Speaker 1: got my parents to set up with them. So if

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Speaker 1: your first year. Because your bitcoin isn't just for life,

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Speaker 1: it's for generations.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it would, you know. Probably my biggest uh peeve

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Speaker 2: right now is people lending out or rehypothecating their bitcoin.

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Speaker 2: I think that this is a really pernicious thing. It's

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Speaker 2: incredibly negative for bitcoin and the spot price of bitcoin.

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Speaker 2: I think in large part it's part of what is

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Speaker 2: suppressing the price. And you've got treasury companies, you've got miners,

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Speaker 2: you've got individuals with lots of bitcoin, kind of like

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Speaker 2: you were saying, and they want to earn some yield

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Speaker 2: on their bitcoin, so they're lending their bitcoin out. The

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Speaker 2: problem with that is the borrowers of bitcoin are not

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Speaker 2: people who love and want to hold bitcoin. Those people

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Speaker 2: have bitcoin. The borrowers of bitcoin are people who want

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Speaker 2: to short it because you can't sell bitcoin if you

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Speaker 2: don't own it, so they have to borrow it to

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Speaker 2: short it, and they've got some duration on their trade,

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Speaker 2: and they say, Okay, I think bitcoin's going to go

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Speaker 2: down over the next year, I'll pay you, you know,

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Speaker 2: whatever the market rate is to borrow x amount of

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Speaker 2: bitcoin from you, and then I'll sell it. And it's

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Speaker 2: very possible that it gets rehypothecated then by whoever bought it,

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Speaker 2: and you get this cycle of rehypothecation which creates multiple

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Speaker 2: sellers from one bitcoin, and so we have a circulating

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Speaker 2: supply of bitcoin on the cell side of the market

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Speaker 2: that is just suppressing the price. And it's a it's

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Speaker 2: a big, big problem in my opinion.

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Speaker 1: Yes, certainly, I mean it for a lot of reasons.

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Speaker 1: To your point, it sort of gives these short sellers

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Speaker 1: the ammunition they need, which is one problem, but it

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Speaker 1: also takes away the demand on the other side as well, right,

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Speaker 1: So they're not buying the bitcoin that they should have been.

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Speaker 1: They're borrowing correct.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because when they sell it, they're not buying it, right,

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Speaker 2: they're borrowing it, so they're not they're not paying for it,

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Speaker 2: they're just paying interest and then returning it. Right. So yes,

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Speaker 2: down the road, when they close their you know, short

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Speaker 2: or borrow, they have to deliver the bitcoin back. But

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Speaker 2: you're in the meantime, you're creating tons of sellers for

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Speaker 2: this one bitcoin that got loan, right, and it's it's

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Speaker 2: it's killing us. And it's all because you know, people

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Speaker 2: want to compete for single digit percentages yield on their bitcoin, right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean we've been so ingrained that we have

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Speaker 1: to put our assets to work and they have to

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Speaker 1: earn a yield, and so they want to do that.

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Speaker 1: But what do you think I mean, because we've had

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Speaker 1: cash settled futures for a long time, and which is

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Speaker 1: basically the same thing, we see new types of cash

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Speaker 1: settled stuff coming out. JP Morgan came out with a

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Speaker 1: new structured product that doesn't actually buy bitcoin, So all

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Speaker 1: of that compounds it or do you see the rehypothication

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Speaker 1: of the bitcoin being something different than that.

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Speaker 2: I think it compounds it, but I do see the

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Speaker 2: rehypothication of the bitcoin is something that's like really clear

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Speaker 2: and very easy for folks to understand, and it's like

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Speaker 2: it's really pernicious. It's super evil because the way you

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Speaker 2: put an asset with fixed supply to work is you

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Speaker 2: take it out of circulation. It's working by you sitting

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Speaker 2: on it and not selling it and keeping it secure.

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Speaker 2: It's working, and the second you loan it back out,

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Speaker 2: it starts working against you.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I talk about it like owning assets,

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Speaker 1: never selling assets, and then your bitcoin, and then I

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Speaker 1: call it either I use it term like renting liquidity

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Speaker 1: against the asset, or I like to think of bitcoin

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Speaker 1: and then harvesting the appreciation of the bitcoin, so like

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Speaker 1: I could turn bitcoin into a yield asset by harvesting

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Speaker 1: some of the appreciation with debt, sort of like what

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Speaker 1: sailor is doing with stretch for example, but from like

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Speaker 1: an individual personal level. If I also think that bitcoin

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Speaker 1: is going up by thirty forty fifty percent per year compounding,

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Speaker 1: I could borrow ten percent against it each year, which

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Speaker 1: then that debt is tax free because it's debt, and

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Speaker 1: I'm just harvesting a little bit. But I don't I

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Speaker 1: don't stop the compounding, so the asset is still compounding.

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Speaker 1: It's still technically out of service obviously, as long as

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Speaker 1: you're boring from somebody who's not re hypothecating very key piece.

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Speaker 1: But then I keep the asset in my custody, I

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Speaker 1: keep it from being loan back out working against me,

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Speaker 1: and I can still harvest the appreciation as well. So maybe, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you have to.

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Speaker 2: If you have to give up some of the upside

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Speaker 2: on your bitcoin in order to get present day fiat

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Speaker 2: to live. You know, that's understandable. In the best case scenario,

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Speaker 2: companies or individuals have some kind of FIAT income, uh,

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Speaker 2: and they don't need to do that, and they can

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Speaker 2: take whatever extra because there's no such thing as extra money,

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Speaker 2: but they take whatever, you know, money they don't need

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Speaker 2: in the short term and add that to their stack.

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Speaker 2: You know that that's the ideal scenario. But for people,

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Speaker 2: you know, obviously the person who's one hundred percent into bitcoin,

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Speaker 2: if they have to sell a little periodically or you know,

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Speaker 2: do a little, you know, kind of debt type thing

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Speaker 2: in order to live day to day. You know, that's

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Speaker 2: not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about companies with many,

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Speaker 2: many thousands of bitcoin and that are loaning out thousands

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Speaker 2: of bitcoin, which now there's thousands of bitcoin for sale.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I know you know you've worked firsthand with

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Speaker 1: a bunch of these treasury companies, so from the inner

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Speaker 1: workings without dropping in the names obviously, I mean you've

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Speaker 1: you're seeing this actually going down. People are doing this.

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Speaker 2: And not the companies that I'm right, but that's with

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Speaker 2: but but yes, yeah, very much. So. You know, you'll

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Speaker 2: see a lot of times you'll see debt deals in

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Speaker 2: these companies and they say, Okay, we'll give you this debt,

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Speaker 2: but we really need to take possession of the bitcoin.

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Speaker 2: We'll give you a lower rate on the debt if

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Speaker 2: you let us, you know, encumber it personally and hold

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Speaker 2: it in our Why are they giving you a lower

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Speaker 2: rate if you do that. They're doing it because they're lending, right,

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Speaker 2: And so yeah, that's that's the stuff that I think

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Speaker 2: is problem.

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Speaker 1: At Yeah, how big of a problem do you think

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Speaker 1: that is? I mean, do you have any sort of

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Speaker 1: estimation of about like how many bitcoins or how much this

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Speaker 1: is actually influencing thing. Or is it more like, hey, this,

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Speaker 1: we see this growing and it could become a problem,

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Speaker 1: so maybe we should start talking about it and stopping

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Speaker 1: it before it gets too big.

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Speaker 2: No, I think I think it is currently a problem.

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Speaker 2: I you know, I know of large enough pools of

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Speaker 2: bitcoin that are being loaned out, So I think it's

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Speaker 2: currently a problem, not a potential problem. Okay, I think

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Speaker 2: I think think about it this. Think about it in

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Speaker 2: the extreme. If everybody who held bitcoin refused to lend

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Speaker 2: it out, where would the price be now? Right?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, if there was.

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Speaker 2: Because the truth is, the vast majority of folks and

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Speaker 2: when I say folks, I mean individuals or corporations that

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Speaker 2: hold bitcoin. They're holding bitcoin as a long term store

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Speaker 2: of value. There are no there There really aren't natural

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Speaker 2: sellers that are long bitcoin. Yes, you get your share

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Speaker 2: of traders, but it's not that many, right, And so

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Speaker 2: if you, if you, if the long term holders just

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Speaker 2: didn't let their bitcoin get back into circulation to sell,

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Speaker 2: there'd be very little, you know, supply for sale, and

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Speaker 2: we'd have a supply demand in balance, and the price

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Speaker 2: would go Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean we know for sure. I mean Celsius

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Speaker 1: and blockfire that went down, and you know, probably FTX

403
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Speaker 1: was engaged in that as well. For sure, they were

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Speaker 1: doing a lot of re highproflication, so so giving people

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Speaker 1: very low it's if you don't pay for the product,

406
00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:27,920
Speaker 1: you are the products. So you're getting a one percent

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Speaker 1: rate on a loan, what do you think is happening?

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Speaker 1: And so that was that was really rampant. I don't

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Speaker 1: know how much I've been seeing that today, but certainly

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Speaker 1: the bitcoin treasury companies I suppose could do that as well.

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Speaker 1: So I guess the thing is if you want, if

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Speaker 1: you do want to give your money to a bitcoin

413
00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:43,959
Speaker 1: treasury company, maybe you should just see what they're doing

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Speaker 1: with the bitcoin making sure they don't have a policy

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Speaker 1: to loan that back out.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, because you don't.

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Speaker 2: I think it's the kind of thing that you know,

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Speaker 2: at these Bitcoin for Corporations conferences and stuff, this should

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Speaker 2: be a hot topic. Yeah, because all the company is

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Speaker 2: in this space, they're long term believers in bitcoin. And

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Speaker 2: while the spot price of bitcoin is not the be

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Speaker 2: all end all for those of us in the bitcoin

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Speaker 2: community who have you know, more theoretical kind of things

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Speaker 2: that matter as well, the spot price matters.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it does. If it's a store of value,

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Speaker 1: then it should hold its value, and so the price

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Speaker 1: has to go up if it's going to be a

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Speaker 1: store of value.

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Speaker 2: And we're an emerging store of values, so it's got

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Speaker 2: to do more than hold. It's got to go up

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00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:36,120
Speaker 2: relatively dramatically. Yeah, you know, the the in the medium term.

433
00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:39,399
Speaker 1: Yeah. Now on top of that, then we do also

434
00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:43,160
Speaker 1: have the cash settled futures, and we have JP Morgan

435
00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:46,439
Speaker 1: now jumping in. I'm curious your take on JP Morgan

436
00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:51,200
Speaker 1: if you've seen some of the maybe coincidental smoke, maybe

437
00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:54,200
Speaker 1: there's some fire there, but it seemed like a very

438
00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:58,000
Speaker 1: strange coincidence. On October tenth, Trump put out the tweet

439
00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:00,480
Speaker 1: about one hundred percent tariffs on China, which then the

440
00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:02,760
Speaker 1: markets came down because of that, which then sent the

441
00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:07,160
Speaker 1: entire crypto market that was overleveraged into a massive down downturn.

442
00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:12,040
Speaker 1: You saw market makers getting liquidated, you know, accounts getting

443
00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:15,439
Speaker 1: ADL shutting accounts down that or even in profit. But

444
00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:18,639
Speaker 1: then if that wasn't enough, it seemed like the same

445
00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:23,240
Speaker 1: day JP Morgan changed the margin requirements on MSTR stock,

446
00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:26,520
Speaker 1: one of the most heavily traded stocks in the world.

447
00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:29,040
Speaker 1: Do everyone's doing options with it? Leverage? And they changed

448
00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:32,359
Speaker 1: the margin requirement from fifty to ninety five percent, and

449
00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:35,760
Speaker 1: maybe that was just coincidental, but then they introduced a

450
00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:37,320
Speaker 1: structured bitcoin product.

451
00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:45,119
Speaker 2: Yeah. So Jamie Diamond famously started out with the strongest

452
00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:49,560
Speaker 2: anti bitcoin rhetoric, right like, if I see anybody working

453
00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:53,040
Speaker 2: for me trading and I'll fire them, and you know

454
00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:59,160
Speaker 2: it's it's softened and softened over time. It went. Then

455
00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:01,720
Speaker 2: it went to you know, a lot of money left

456
00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:07,280
Speaker 2: JP Morgan's private bank. I think it was, uh like

457
00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:10,400
Speaker 2: the most they'd ever have leaven a quarter wow. And

458
00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:14,000
Speaker 2: it got to Diamond and he said, what's going on

459
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:16,440
Speaker 2: in the private bank and they said, well, we don't.

460
00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:20,359
Speaker 2: We won't let them buy bitcoin exposure. So this money

461
00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:23,280
Speaker 2: left to go buy bitcoin exposure. And that's you know,

462
00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:25,240
Speaker 2: that's what got them to capitulate a little bit and

463
00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:30,120
Speaker 2: allow people to buy I GB It was. It was great.

464
00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:32,680
Speaker 2: Only GBTC was around at that point. It was a

465
00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:36,520
Speaker 2: gray scout, right, there wasn't ib yet, and so that's

466
00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:40,040
Speaker 2: what that's what's flipped that And then he's gotten softer

467
00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:43,960
Speaker 2: and softer, and then he analogizes it to like tobacco.

468
00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:46,720
Speaker 2: He's like, I don't recommend people smoke, but we don't

469
00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:50,200
Speaker 2: stop people from buying Philip Morris and so. And now

470
00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:53,640
Speaker 2: they're doing their own things. Now they're providing collateral. Now

471
00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:55,840
Speaker 2: they're doing all kinds of stuff. So it's like, I think,

472
00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:58,320
Speaker 2: on one hand, we have to look at the progression

473
00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:02,240
Speaker 2: of how he vilified, hated us, and now more and

474
00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:07,679
Speaker 2: more he's coming to participate and even potentially trying to

475
00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:12,000
Speaker 2: steal some of our business, so to speak. Right, And

476
00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:14,399
Speaker 2: that's what happens when Wall Street comes in, right, Like,

477
00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:17,480
Speaker 2: they go after the money, and I think that's a

478
00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:19,440
Speaker 2: win for us. I would position that as a win.

479
00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:25,040
Speaker 2: I think they did it in a shitty way. But

480
00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:30,240
Speaker 2: you know, whether it was coincidental or intentional, I wouldn't

481
00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:33,560
Speaker 2: have any idea. But JP Morgan went from a hater

482
00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:38,359
Speaker 2: to participate it. Yeah, so that's in the grand scheme

483
00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:40,400
Speaker 2: of things, that's not bad. Well.

484
00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:43,320
Speaker 1: I do like to think that intelligence is the ability

485
00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:45,280
Speaker 1: to receive new information and change your mind, And so

486
00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:47,560
Speaker 1: I do like to think that just like Sailor pivoted

487
00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:50,600
Speaker 1: from his twenty thirteen to tweet about bitcoin, Just like

488
00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:52,639
Speaker 1: we've seen Larry Fink pivot off of it, and I

489
00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:57,080
Speaker 1: believe Larry Fink has changed his mind. Donald Trump changed

490
00:26:57,119 --> 00:26:59,520
Speaker 1: his mind, and I suppose Jamie Diamond could change his

491
00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:03,480
Speaker 1: mind as well, and that's okay, absolutely, So they should

492
00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:05,560
Speaker 1: receive new information and then change their mind, and now

493
00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:08,320
Speaker 1: it's become more legitimate. So I would hope that's the case.

494
00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:09,880
Speaker 1: I do think with like I said, with Larry Fink,

495
00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:11,919
Speaker 1: I think it's the case. Obviously, Sailor was Trump. I

496
00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:15,080
Speaker 1: think it is. Jamie Diamond, I don't know, and we're

497
00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:16,560
Speaker 1: still on the fence with him, although I don't know

498
00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:18,439
Speaker 1: if he saw some of his remarks at Davos, but

499
00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:19,920
Speaker 1: he's pretty based right now.

500
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:27,639
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, he took some shots at tax policy in

501
00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:29,960
Speaker 2: the US, which was kind of not party specific.

502
00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:33,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, But I think the thing that kind of worries

503
00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:35,280
Speaker 1: me though, is the product that they came out with,

504
00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:37,880
Speaker 1: the structured product that they launch is all cash settled,

505
00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:41,240
Speaker 1: so they're not actually buying bitcoin either, so it's like

506
00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:45,119
Speaker 1: it's like a paper bitcoin thing. And so from that perspective,

507
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:46,879
Speaker 1: kind of to the point that you're making it doesn't

508
00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:49,600
Speaker 1: affect the supply and demand of bitcoin and actually, what

509
00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:51,600
Speaker 1: it does do is takes money that would normally have

510
00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:54,680
Speaker 1: bought bitcoin and instead bets it over here on the side.

511
00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:56,520
Speaker 1: So that's detrimental to Bitcoin.

512
00:27:57,440 --> 00:27:59,720
Speaker 2: Without a doubt, Without a doubt, I agree with you

513
00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:04,119
Speaker 2: that you know, there's a there's a website I think

514
00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:09,200
Speaker 2: it's called Visual Capitalist, and they've got a great visual

515
00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:14,000
Speaker 2: which shows all the asset classes in the world in

516
00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:16,040
Speaker 2: cubes so you can get a feel for like the

517
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:19,920
Speaker 2: size of that asset class. And as you scroll down

518
00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:25,000
Speaker 2: this website, it's absolutely mind blowing when you look at

519
00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:29,280
Speaker 2: all these other massive asset classes, currency, real estate, you know,

520
00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:33,240
Speaker 2: all these different things, right, and then you get down

521
00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:37,919
Speaker 2: at the bottom to derivatives. Yeah, and it's like orders

522
00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:42,640
Speaker 2: of magnitude larger than not only any other asset class,

523
00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:46,560
Speaker 2: but these asset classes combined. And this is part of

524
00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:51,360
Speaker 2: the growing pains of being accepted by Wall Street and

525
00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:55,440
Speaker 2: getting thrown into their machine. We will suffer through these

526
00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:58,240
Speaker 2: derivative products where the tail can wag the dog.

527
00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:03,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, which I mean the derivatives market is so

528
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:05,240
Speaker 1: big people don't even know how big it is. It's

529
00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:11,520
Speaker 1: well over a quadrillion dollars estimated, and it can wag

530
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:14,800
Speaker 1: the dog. Gold and the gold and silver markets have

531
00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:17,200
Speaker 1: been suffering this from this from a long time. And

532
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:20,440
Speaker 1: again they don't even know. I mean I've seen estimates

533
00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:24,240
Speaker 1: anywhere from one hundred up to five hundred paper ounces

534
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:26,480
Speaker 1: for everyone physical ounce, and they've sort of just like

535
00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:29,160
Speaker 1: lost control out. Yeah.

536
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:32,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, very few people who have exposure to

537
00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:37,040
Speaker 2: gold really have exposure to physical gold, very very few.

538
00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:40,880
Speaker 2: And like you know, for context, I think all the

539
00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:43,479
Speaker 2: gold that's out of the ground in the entire world

540
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:46,680
Speaker 2: wouldn't fill to Olympic sized swimming.

541
00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:47,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, something like that.

542
00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:51,920
Speaker 2: So yeah, so, but there's a lot of gold derivatives.

543
00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:54,560
Speaker 1: That's yeah, And we've seen you know, JP Morgan traders

544
00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:58,280
Speaker 1: getting getting you know, indicted or actually getting convicted of

545
00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:01,920
Speaker 1: manipulating gold markets. Do it through like naked short selling, right,

546
00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:03,800
Speaker 1: so they don't even have to they don't even have

547
00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:06,479
Speaker 1: to borrow the gold in the example you're given, they

548
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:08,240
Speaker 1: can just do it naked. They don't even have it.

549
00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:10,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's good. Good to be the market maker.

550
00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:12,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, good to be the market maker. I suppose. Now,

551
00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:14,760
Speaker 1: on one hand, a lot of gold bugs might say

552
00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:17,440
Speaker 1: that's kept the price of gold down, but maybe like

553
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:19,720
Speaker 1: a beach ball underwater. I mean, look at gold today.

554
00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:21,720
Speaker 1: I think it almost hit like five thousand dollars and

555
00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:25,560
Speaker 1: ounce incredible. At some point maybe they can manage. They

556
00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:29,080
Speaker 1: could affect some short term volatility, but over the long run,

557
00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:31,080
Speaker 1: I mean it's sort of what's gonna do, what it's

558
00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:35,360
Speaker 1: gonna do. Governments will never stop printing money, so inflation

559
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:37,960
Speaker 1: it's not going away. Now. If your money's not earning

560
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:41,240
Speaker 1: at least ten percent a year, you're losing purchasing power.

561
00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:43,440
Speaker 1: That's why I talk about bitcoin. It's the number one

562
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:46,400
Speaker 1: way to beat inflation and secure your future. And the

563
00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:49,720
Speaker 1: question I get asked almost every day is where do

564
00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:52,560
Speaker 1: you buy your bitcoin? Now? For years, I'll personally use

565
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:55,120
Speaker 1: river dot com and I only take on sponsors that

566
00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:58,040
Speaker 1: I use and I trust, And I trust them because

567
00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:01,520
Speaker 1: rivers bitcoin only a one hundred percent reserve and they

568
00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:05,200
Speaker 1: keep your bitcoin safe in cold storage with no middlemen,

569
00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:08,000
Speaker 1: and you can actually talk to a real person, a

570
00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:12,360
Speaker 1: US based support, dedicated manager. Now, try getting that peace

571
00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:16,360
Speaker 1: of mind from coinbase. Of course you can't. Now the perks.

572
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:19,160
Speaker 1: If you set up auto buys, you can pay zero

573
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:21,760
Speaker 1: fees plus instead of you're bank paying you. You know,

574
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:25,040
Speaker 1: zero point four percent on cash, River pays you three

575
00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:28,760
Speaker 1: point seventy five percent on cash paid in bitcoin. So

576
00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:31,600
Speaker 1: if you're ready to build your bitcoin position with confidence,

577
00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:34,960
Speaker 1: go to River dot com, slash mark Moss and get

578
00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:37,600
Speaker 1: up to one hundred dollars in bitcoin when you sign up.

579
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:40,880
Speaker 1: Because freedom starts when you own your money, and your

580
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:42,160
Speaker 1: money starts with bitcoin.

581
00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:46,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you know, these the animal spirits of derivatives.

582
00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:51,880
Speaker 2: They when they're with you, they're phenomenal. When they're against you,

583
00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:56,560
Speaker 2: they're brutal. And all of these animal spirits that bitcoin

584
00:31:56,640 --> 00:32:00,440
Speaker 2: is kind of suffering through over the last year that

585
00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:04,120
Speaker 2: are suppressing the price, there will come a time when

586
00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:07,440
Speaker 2: the tide turns and those animal spirits are with us,

587
00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:09,960
Speaker 2: and there'll be a big part of the reason that

588
00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:13,239
Speaker 2: we have these green candles that you know are are

589
00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:17,160
Speaker 2: mind boggling. So I think we, you know, we have

590
00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:22,600
Speaker 2: to we have to be adults and take our growing pains,

591
00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:28,240
Speaker 2: you know, and just kind of live with this new reality.

592
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:30,640
Speaker 1: Do you think that bitcoin is maybe a little bit

593
00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:34,719
Speaker 1: more immune to some of that, like unlike gold, because

594
00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:38,360
Speaker 1: of its open, you know, transparent sort of blockchain where

595
00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:41,040
Speaker 1: we can see the amount of coins where the coins

596
00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:45,760
Speaker 1: are so number one gold, we don't really know bitcoin.

597
00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:48,160
Speaker 1: We can see it number two to your point, and

598
00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:49,880
Speaker 1: not a lot of people own gold because it's really

599
00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:51,960
Speaker 1: hard to take custody of it unless you have like

600
00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:54,640
Speaker 1: one coin. But with bitcoin, I can, I could move it,

601
00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:58,400
Speaker 1: I could custody it myself, and so maybe that sort

602
00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:00,000
Speaker 1: of kind of gives it a little bit of defense.

603
00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:04,120
Speaker 2: Maybe I haven't spent a lot of time thinking about that.

604
00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:10,600
Speaker 2: The transparency piece is really big. However, a lot of

605
00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:14,200
Speaker 2: that breaks down with Wall Street coming in right because

606
00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:17,440
Speaker 2: you've got even the spotytfs that have to buy one

607
00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:20,440
Speaker 2: for one or Strategy or some of the treasury companies,

608
00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:24,720
Speaker 2: or even kind of like the aggregation at the exchanges.

609
00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:28,360
Speaker 2: You know, a lot of that transparency goes away.

610
00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:35,600
Speaker 1: I mean interesting, yes, but funds, ETFs, public companies should

611
00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:38,880
Speaker 1: report how many bitcoin they have, and we're pretty good

612
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:41,600
Speaker 1: with the Internet salus these days. They could quickly figure

613
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:44,600
Speaker 1: out sort of like what is institutionally held bitcoin and

614
00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:47,120
Speaker 1: compare that to the overall supply of bitcoin, and if

615
00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:49,880
Speaker 1: it gets really lopsided, it's not very difficult for people

616
00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:52,840
Speaker 1: just again to take custody. So for example, we saw

617
00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:55,000
Speaker 1: this really kick off in twenty twenty three when those

618
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:57,360
Speaker 1: three banks collapse, which that's a whole other story, but

619
00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:00,680
Speaker 1: sort of one of us. One of the main things

620
00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:03,440
Speaker 1: was how fast people were able to run on the bank.

621
00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:06,360
Speaker 1: So I could literally just grab my phone, open up

622
00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:10,040
Speaker 1: my account, hit transfer, gone, and banks weren't prepared for

623
00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:13,120
Speaker 1: that speed. They got caught off guards with their duration mismatch.

624
00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:17,280
Speaker 1: And so if internet slew started kind of reporting public

625
00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:20,600
Speaker 1: funds Bitcoin and we're off sides, and then a proof

626
00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:24,640
Speaker 1: of fund's day happens, everybody withdraws real quick. Like that's

627
00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:26,280
Speaker 1: kind of what I mean, like some of this defense

628
00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:28,000
Speaker 1: that maybe could.

629
00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:31,640
Speaker 2: Keep them honest. I think you're right. I think it

630
00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:32,840
Speaker 2: could definitely be helpful.

631
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:36,400
Speaker 1: What about let's move into bitcoin's use case as a

632
00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:39,279
Speaker 1: medium of exchange. So a lot of people have thought

633
00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:42,480
Speaker 1: maybe bitcoin's failed because it hasn't become a medium exchange.

634
00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:46,040
Speaker 1: Some people say that maybe it's only going to be

635
00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:49,080
Speaker 1: a store of value into the future. You know, I

636
00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:51,640
Speaker 1: know Sailor sort of talks in that way, but I'm

637
00:34:51,640 --> 00:34:54,759
Speaker 1: curious your take on the medium exchange. Number One, the

638
00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:58,080
Speaker 1: use case is that's something that happens later. But number two,

639
00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:00,440
Speaker 1: do you think if it actually did become a medium

640
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:03,120
Speaker 1: exchange and people are actually custing and using it, if that,

641
00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:07,440
Speaker 1: I that might also help fight off this this rehypothecation

642
00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:09,520
Speaker 1: and paper bitcoin that we're talking about.

643
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:13,440
Speaker 2: The last point is a good one. I haven't I

644
00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:16,120
Speaker 2: haven't thought about that, to be honest.

645
00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:18,520
Speaker 1: Right, Because if I'm gonna if I'm gonna use as

646
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:20,680
Speaker 1: a medium exchange and I'm gonna keep it in my account.

647
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:23,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're not going to loan it out so quick. Yeah.

648
00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:26,359
Speaker 2: Although I have to say, and I know this may

649
00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:30,200
Speaker 2: not be the popular opinion, I don't think it's important

650
00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:33,919
Speaker 2: for bitcoin to be a medium of exchange. I don't

651
00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:38,640
Speaker 2: think the world has a medium of exchange problem. And also,

652
00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:41,480
Speaker 2: I mean when we talk about medium of exchange, we're

653
00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:46,879
Speaker 2: talking about currency, right, and stable coins work very well

654
00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:52,160
Speaker 2: as a medium of exchange. Right. There's very little cash

655
00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:56,960
Speaker 2: transactions in the United States as it is. Most people

656
00:35:57,040 --> 00:36:01,160
Speaker 2: these days don't even carry paper money any kind, right,

657
00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:07,240
Speaker 2: So yeah, so we don't have a medium of exchange problem.

658
00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:11,680
Speaker 2: But currency also is a very small percentage of global assets,

659
00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:16,480
Speaker 2: whereas store of value is massive. So even though bitcoin

660
00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:21,319
Speaker 2: may have been shooting for medium of exchange, and more

661
00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:26,120
Speaker 2: of a currency. It's stumbled upon being a solution to

662
00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:31,440
Speaker 2: a problem that is much much much bigger and more valuable,

663
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:35,480
Speaker 2: which is store of value. So if we didn't solve

664
00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:38,680
Speaker 2: the medium of exchange problem, I think that's just fine

665
00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:42,040
Speaker 2: with me. And there are technological challenges, certainly, and L

666
00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:44,560
Speaker 2: one as to why that's the case. But maybe with

667
00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:47,640
Speaker 2: L two's and L three's it becomes more functional. But

668
00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:50,520
Speaker 2: I don't think it's important that bitcoin achieves that.

669
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:52,959
Speaker 1: I look at it. I mean, when you look through

670
00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:56,080
Speaker 1: I mean, let me just read the Bitcoin standard, but

671
00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:58,600
Speaker 1: if you look through thousands of years of monetary history,

672
00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:00,840
Speaker 1: you'll see that we've had feathers in oxygen te shells,

673
00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:02,960
Speaker 1: and then gold emerge as the best one. But it

674
00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:06,319
Speaker 1: follows like this four phase evolution of Look at this,

675
00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:08,680
Speaker 1: Look at the feather of this rock. It's a collectible.

676
00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:11,480
Speaker 1: This is interesting, and some collectibles become store of values.

677
00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:13,320
Speaker 1: So a lot of rich people store wealth in cars

678
00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:15,560
Speaker 1: and arts, so collectibles, but only if it has the

679
00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:18,640
Speaker 1: right attributes. Money attributes could go from a store of

680
00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:21,560
Speaker 1: value into a medium exchange. So a mona lisa can't

681
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:23,879
Speaker 1: work as money obviously, right, And either kind of cow.

682
00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:26,360
Speaker 1: So if it has the right attributes, it could be

683
00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:29,319
Speaker 1: medium exchange, which gold did, and then eventually, if enough

684
00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:30,960
Speaker 1: people use it could be a unit of accounts. Like

685
00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:34,759
Speaker 1: the four phases, and like bitcoin is unique because it's

686
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:37,600
Speaker 1: a technology that can be in all four of those,

687
00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:39,719
Speaker 1: but it doesn't mean that it takes all four at

688
00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:42,839
Speaker 1: the same time. So it's like an evolutionary process. So

689
00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:46,040
Speaker 1: but but I but but yeah, But what I would

690
00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:50,719
Speaker 1: say is technology needs to solve problems. And to your point,

691
00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:53,439
Speaker 1: the world didn't really need faster money, like our money

692
00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:57,360
Speaker 1: is pretty fast. But what But but what I would

693
00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:01,200
Speaker 1: say though, is that viewpoint of like we have dollars,

694
00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:03,640
Speaker 1: we kind of have stable coins. I don't use cash

695
00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:06,120
Speaker 1: in any way. Whatever. The US is four percent of

696
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:11,040
Speaker 1: the world's population four percent. Now it's a larger share

697
00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:14,400
Speaker 1: of GDP. But what I would say is that, for example,

698
00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:17,239
Speaker 1: the lady that cuts my hair, she's from Afghanistan. She's

699
00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:19,279
Speaker 1: lived here for a long time, but that's where she's from.

700
00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:21,799
Speaker 1: And like a couple of years ago, when the Bide

701
00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:25,560
Speaker 1: administration disastrously pulled out of Afghanistan and the tally Band

702
00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:27,359
Speaker 1: took over the central bank, she's like man I really

703
00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:28,839
Speaker 1: wish I could help out some of the ladies back

704
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:31,120
Speaker 1: in Afghanistan, but I can't send them any money because

705
00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:34,080
Speaker 1: the Talibank controls the central banks, right if you're in

706
00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:37,120
Speaker 1: North Korea, Like there are parts of the world where

707
00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:39,560
Speaker 1: there is a problem with currency, and it's not a

708
00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:41,160
Speaker 1: big enough problem today, and it's not a problem that

709
00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:43,680
Speaker 1: needs to be solved immediately. But I do think over

710
00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:47,160
Speaker 1: this evolutionary arc because it's solved.

711
00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:53,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's solved, right, So I think everybody would

712
00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:58,960
Speaker 2: be very happy getting a stable coin or a digital dollar, right,

713
00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:02,719
Speaker 2: So I think that we're going to have fewer currencies.

714
00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:07,719
Speaker 2: Why would people continue to use lesser fiat currencies than

715
00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:12,440
Speaker 2: the dollar when stable coins allow everyone globally to use

716
00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:15,759
Speaker 2: the dollar as their medium of exchange. So I think

717
00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:21,000
Speaker 2: that I think that's sailed. I think that's good that

718
00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:24,560
Speaker 2: the dollar will win that and proliferate. I think that's

719
00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:26,880
Speaker 2: good for the United States, and I think it's really

720
00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:31,840
Speaker 2: good for bitcoin because imagine if bitcoin was genuinely threatening

721
00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:37,680
Speaker 2: to the US dollar as a medium of exchange. I

722
00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:41,560
Speaker 2: I think I think, you you know, the love that

723
00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:44,640
Speaker 2: we're getting from the administration, which you can you can

724
00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:46,640
Speaker 2: like it or hate it, or feel whatever kind of

725
00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:50,719
Speaker 2: way about it. But I think people underestimate just how

726
00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:57,719
Speaker 2: uh just how vulnerable bitcoin would be at a you know,

727
00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:04,160
Speaker 2: sub a couple trillion dollars to global superpowers doing everything

728
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:07,919
Speaker 2: they could to kill it. Yeah, and the one thing,

729
00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:12,160
Speaker 2: there aren't a lot of things that would unite Republicans

730
00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:17,400
Speaker 2: and Democrats, but if defending the dollar ever had a

731
00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:21,520
Speaker 2: common enemy, I think you see some pretty good unification there.

732
00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:26,160
Speaker 2: So I like that US stable coins will proliferate and

733
00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:28,040
Speaker 2: and the dollar will win. I think that's good, and

734
00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:30,160
Speaker 2: I think it's good for Bitcoin that we can be

735
00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:33,560
Speaker 2: a store of value alongside that and help each other.

736
00:40:34,719 --> 00:40:37,399
Speaker 1: Really, the long term store of value, the global store

737
00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:41,200
Speaker 1: of value is US treasuries, not US dollars. Right, So

738
00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:44,239
Speaker 1: there's they're storing treasuries in their in their banks, and

739
00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:47,040
Speaker 1: right now gold is threatening that. Right, So we've seen

740
00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:49,320
Speaker 1: US treasuries have gone.

741
00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:51,719
Speaker 2: The stable coins have to be backed by treasuries, so

742
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:55,640
Speaker 2: one to one, so right, they are right.

743
00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:57,000
Speaker 1: I want to get into I want to get into

744
00:40:57,040 --> 00:40:59,400
Speaker 1: that park specifically. But like we've seen just since in

745
00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:02,560
Speaker 1: the last ten years, US treasuries have gone from sixty

746
00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:09,840
Speaker 1: percent to forty percent of reserves global reserves, and gold

747
00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:12,640
Speaker 1: now with partly because of the price appreciation, is now

748
00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:16,840
Speaker 1: going up to fifty percent. So we're seeing a flipping

749
00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:21,880
Speaker 1: happening there in actual reserve. So it's like maybe maybe not,

750
00:41:22,040 --> 00:41:24,080
Speaker 1: I don't have the exact data on this, but like

751
00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:28,520
Speaker 1: how much buying treasury buying pressure does somebody in Venezuela,

752
00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:32,560
Speaker 1: an individual bring in Venezuela or Lebanon or Turkey versus

753
00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:35,720
Speaker 1: the central banks. And so it seems like the greatest

754
00:41:35,719 --> 00:41:38,560
Speaker 1: threat to the US dollar today is gold, right by

755
00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:40,560
Speaker 1: a long shot, and not because of the me in exchange,

756
00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:44,080
Speaker 1: but it's it's what we see going on in China

757
00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:46,799
Speaker 1: and through Hong Kong. They just set up a new

758
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:50,479
Speaker 1: they set up a whole new parallel financial system. They're

759
00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:54,440
Speaker 1: using the RMB for liquidity. Everything's being settled in gold,

760
00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:57,440
Speaker 1: and they've opened swap lines with thirty two countries everyone

761
00:41:57,480 --> 00:42:03,359
Speaker 1: but the US. And yeah, and so the best way

762
00:42:03,360 --> 00:42:07,239
Speaker 1: to defend the dollar is stop printing money. How about that?

763
00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:11,800
Speaker 2: Yeah? I think that I agree completely. I think the

764
00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:13,800
Speaker 2: chances of that happening are remote.

765
00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:16,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, exactly. So I think about like the two

766
00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:19,959
Speaker 1: main drivers for bitcoin seems to be the store of value,

767
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:21,959
Speaker 1: which is, stop printing money and then just take away

768
00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:24,439
Speaker 1: the need and I store my value there and then

769
00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:29,279
Speaker 1: stop censoring transactions. Those two those two things. But on

770
00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:31,440
Speaker 1: the set on that side, let's go back to stable

771
00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:34,200
Speaker 1: coins for a minute. I think it's a great step.

772
00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:37,759
Speaker 1: I understand that people around the world are dying to

773
00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:39,920
Speaker 1: get into dollars, or literally dying because they can't get

774
00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:42,879
Speaker 1: into dollars. They're watching their their savings and and their

775
00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:45,080
Speaker 1: their money they need on a weekly basis just evaporate.

776
00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:47,720
Speaker 1: I mean, we saw in Iran they lost like forty percent,

777
00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:51,640
Speaker 1: you know, like overnight. So it's a it's an amazing

778
00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:55,000
Speaker 1: interim step both to preserve the dollar strength but also

779
00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:58,120
Speaker 1: help those people on a lifeline. And so the Trump

780
00:42:58,120 --> 00:43:02,279
Speaker 1: administration has been its Beersent specifically, his job is to

781
00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:05,560
Speaker 1: sell treasuries. Sosent specifically has been pushing that. He's estimating

782
00:43:05,560 --> 00:43:08,560
Speaker 1: like three trillion dollars in stable coins. Congress passed it,

783
00:43:09,080 --> 00:43:12,719
Speaker 1: Trump signed it. It's done, and now the banks are

784
00:43:12,719 --> 00:43:13,960
Speaker 1: trying to fight against it and hold it up.

785
00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:19,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, the banks. The banks are very opposed to it

786
00:43:19,719 --> 00:43:24,480
Speaker 2: because the banks have a little monopoly on taking your

787
00:43:24,520 --> 00:43:28,160
Speaker 2: money and not paying you any significant interest, as we

788
00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:32,760
Speaker 2: said at the top right, and the stable coins, since

789
00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:36,799
Speaker 2: they're backed one to one with treasuries, they can take

790
00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:41,200
Speaker 2: a portion of the yield from those treasuries and compete

791
00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:43,640
Speaker 2: with each other and pass it on to consumers, right

792
00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:47,160
Speaker 2: to holders of the stable coin. And that scares the

793
00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:51,719
Speaker 2: crap out of the banks because they can't compete with that.

794
00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:53,279
Speaker 1: Why why can't they compete with that?

795
00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:59,200
Speaker 2: Because they're doing fractional reserve bank. I mean, in theory

796
00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:02,719
Speaker 2: they could, right, but they're not. When you give them

797
00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:08,040
Speaker 2: your money, it's not necessarily backed one to one with anything.

798
00:44:08,160 --> 00:44:10,560
Speaker 2: They can use that capital for a wide variety of

799
00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:14,520
Speaker 2: things with different durations, different risk profiles, etc. So, but

800
00:44:14,600 --> 00:44:17,040
Speaker 2: for the stable coins, it's pretty easy and straightforward. It's like,

801
00:44:17,719 --> 00:44:19,239
Speaker 2: you know, we have one hundred billion dollars of the

802
00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:22,960
Speaker 2: stable coin. You know, we're making six percent yield on this.

803
00:44:23,719 --> 00:44:27,200
Speaker 2: We'll share three percent with you, yep, you know, yep.

804
00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:30,040
Speaker 1: Yeah. And so what it does is it exposes their

805
00:44:30,160 --> 00:44:32,799
Speaker 1: entire business model for what it is. So kind of

806
00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:34,799
Speaker 1: going back to those three banks that went belly up

807
00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:37,840
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty three, there was that duration mismatch. So

808
00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:41,160
Speaker 1: stable coin companies hold your money. It's equity based and

809
00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:44,319
Speaker 1: on demand. I can get my deposit back anytime I want,

810
00:44:44,360 --> 00:44:46,040
Speaker 1: and I can earn the yield. But then the banks

811
00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:48,719
Speaker 1: or you're basically giving your money to the bank, becoming

812
00:44:48,760 --> 00:44:52,040
Speaker 1: an unsecured creditor, and they're going to loan it out

813
00:44:52,040 --> 00:44:53,360
Speaker 1: over some better.

814
00:44:53,160 --> 00:44:54,919
Speaker 2: Hope you've given it to a bank that's too big

815
00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:55,600
Speaker 2: to fail.

816
00:44:55,560 --> 00:44:59,360
Speaker 1: Right, and then their business model is then fractional reserve.

817
00:44:59,680 --> 00:45:01,359
Speaker 1: But if so I'm able to take my money out

818
00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:03,440
Speaker 1: and give it to a stable point company or yield,

819
00:45:03,719 --> 00:45:08,480
Speaker 1: the entire fractional reserve banking system would fall apart. All right,

820
00:45:08,520 --> 00:45:10,720
Speaker 1: stop what you're doing right now and book your travel

821
00:45:10,760 --> 00:45:13,560
Speaker 1: to come join me in Las Vegas for the Bitcoin Conference.

822
00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:15,400
Speaker 1: It's the biggest event of the year, the one I

823
00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:17,840
Speaker 1: look forward through the most every single year. Literally my

824
00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:21,400
Speaker 1: entire year calendar is set around it. It's the biggest event,

825
00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:24,799
Speaker 1: the most culturally relevant event happening in the world. The

826
00:45:24,840 --> 00:45:27,319
Speaker 1: top politicians, the top bank is, the top investors, the

827
00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:30,600
Speaker 1: top entertainers. Everybody's going to be there, So come check

828
00:45:30,600 --> 00:45:33,000
Speaker 1: it out. April twenty seventh through the twenty ninth use

829
00:45:33,080 --> 00:45:35,680
Speaker 1: my code mark Moss to save ten percent. And if

830
00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:37,920
Speaker 1: you use my code to save ten percent, send me

831
00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:40,440
Speaker 1: a message on social media or email and I'll invite

832
00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:42,480
Speaker 1: you to a private party I'm having at the event

833
00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:43,520
Speaker 1: and I'll see you there.

834
00:45:46,840 --> 00:45:49,680
Speaker 2: If it happened at scale, yeah, and I you know

835
00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:55,960
Speaker 2: there was. I actually tweeted this comment by one of

836
00:45:55,960 --> 00:45:58,160
Speaker 2: the JP Morgan guys. I can I can find it.

837
00:45:58,200 --> 00:45:59,960
Speaker 2: Just give you a second here where they kind of

838
00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:03,279
Speaker 2: like said the quiet part out loud a little bit,

839
00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:09,600
Speaker 2: says we always embrace competition, but the bank doesn't want

840
00:46:09,680 --> 00:46:13,759
Speaker 2: to compete against a brand new, parallel ecosystem of deposits

841
00:46:14,080 --> 00:46:18,520
Speaker 2: and interest that has no appropriate regulation. So it's like

842
00:46:18,960 --> 00:46:22,400
Speaker 2: it's like, yeah, we're happy to compete against like products

843
00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:24,760
Speaker 2: or inferior products. We just don't want to compete against

844
00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:28,200
Speaker 2: a better product, and so we'll say that it. We'll

845
00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:31,520
Speaker 2: say that it doesn't have sufficient oversighter regulation. And that's

846
00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:33,920
Speaker 2: why you're seeing the pushback from the banks. It's that simple.

847
00:46:33,960 --> 00:46:37,600
Speaker 2: It's like, we don't want to lose capital, like the banks,

848
00:46:37,080 --> 00:46:41,680
Speaker 2: just like JP Morgan allowed exposure to bitcoin when people

849
00:46:41,680 --> 00:46:44,040
Speaker 2: started taking their money out of the bank, like that

850
00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:46,239
Speaker 2: is the holy grail of the business people take their

851
00:46:46,239 --> 00:46:49,799
Speaker 2: money out of your custody. It's a problem, and that's

852
00:46:49,800 --> 00:46:50,960
Speaker 2: why they're fighting this so hard.

853
00:46:51,680 --> 00:46:55,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, unfortunately for them. Yeah, that fractional reserve banking system

854
00:46:55,760 --> 00:46:59,000
Speaker 1: is completely exposed. That's what I saw. Brian Armstrong, CEO

855
00:46:59,080 --> 00:47:02,520
Speaker 1: of Coinbase, has been in Davos saying that. He was

856
00:47:02,520 --> 00:47:05,000
Speaker 1: on I think CNBC is saying the same thing, and

857
00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:06,960
Speaker 1: he was saying, the banks are trying to say stable

858
00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:10,160
Speaker 1: coins are risky, but it's backed one to one. It's

859
00:47:10,200 --> 00:47:13,280
Speaker 1: the it's the fractional reserve system and the bank that's risky,

860
00:47:14,600 --> 00:47:16,640
Speaker 1: and so you know what happens in that. I think

861
00:47:16,640 --> 00:47:20,320
Speaker 1: that's also why you know, we saw Caitlin try to

862
00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:22,880
Speaker 1: launch Custodia Bank and she got blocked for the same reason.

863
00:47:22,920 --> 00:47:25,480
Speaker 1: She wanted to do a full reserve bank. And so

864
00:47:25,480 --> 00:47:28,760
Speaker 1: they don't want that better competition model to fight against.

865
00:47:29,480 --> 00:47:32,280
Speaker 2: They do not want the better competition model. It will

866
00:47:32,480 --> 00:47:34,040
Speaker 2: it will cost them money.

867
00:47:34,520 --> 00:47:37,720
Speaker 1: The law was already passed by Congress, Trump already signed it.

868
00:47:37,719 --> 00:47:39,880
Speaker 1: It seems like the cows have already left the barn.

869
00:47:40,120 --> 00:47:42,439
Speaker 1: I mean, do you think the banks are strong enough

870
00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:44,000
Speaker 1: to fight and pull this thing back.

871
00:47:45,000 --> 00:47:49,040
Speaker 2: I don't know. I think what was passed was no

872
00:47:49,160 --> 00:47:53,719
Speaker 2: interest on no interest paid on stable coins, and so

873
00:47:53,880 --> 00:47:57,640
Speaker 2: I I think right now they're okay, they're happy with that. Okay,

874
00:47:59,040 --> 00:48:03,239
Speaker 2: there they're pet fight of companies being able to pay

875
00:48:03,280 --> 00:48:07,239
Speaker 2: interest on stable coins. Meanwhile, Tether's probably a static too,

876
00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:10,480
Speaker 2: right ye, because they've got they've got so much of

877
00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:12,080
Speaker 2: this stuff out there and they don't have to share

878
00:48:12,440 --> 00:48:14,759
Speaker 2: any of the income on it. It's it all goes

879
00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:19,760
Speaker 2: to them, which is what makes them so damn profitable. Yeah,

880
00:48:19,880 --> 00:48:23,080
Speaker 2: but I think I think we're seeing obviously all of

881
00:48:23,120 --> 00:48:26,839
Speaker 2: this stuff, compare all of this to uh CBDC, right,

882
00:48:27,160 --> 00:48:30,160
Speaker 2: this central bank digital currency, which would be like the

883
00:48:30,200 --> 00:48:34,959
Speaker 2: most evil, awful thing ever, right, And I think, amazingly

884
00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:39,400
Speaker 2: to me, now politicians actually understand that, which is great

885
00:48:39,800 --> 00:48:43,440
Speaker 2: the amount of education that this community has done with politicians.

886
00:48:43,480 --> 00:48:48,319
Speaker 2: I saw Ron DeSantis, governor of Florida, tweeted something in

887
00:48:48,360 --> 00:48:54,600
Speaker 2: the last forty eight hours basically bashing cbdc's and understanding

888
00:48:54,600 --> 00:48:57,680
Speaker 2: how evil they are. It was. It was pretty awesome.

889
00:48:58,360 --> 00:49:00,839
Speaker 2: So I think I think we're coming a long way

890
00:49:00,840 --> 00:49:04,239
Speaker 2: on the education front with politicians and they understand just

891
00:49:04,320 --> 00:49:08,280
Speaker 2: how evil CBDCs are and I you know, nothing converts

892
00:49:08,320 --> 00:49:11,319
Speaker 2: people to bitcoin like the threat of a CBDC.

893
00:49:11,440 --> 00:49:14,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean anything that will threaten their

894
00:49:14,960 --> 00:49:17,719
Speaker 1: property and their freedom, then they're going to react to that. Yeah.

895
00:49:18,560 --> 00:49:21,600
Speaker 1: You'd put a tweet out talking about trumpet Davos saying

896
00:49:21,640 --> 00:49:25,840
Speaker 1: the US must dominate crypto or China wins. And you

897
00:49:25,840 --> 00:49:28,360
Speaker 1: said super far superpowers will fight to buy bitcoin. So

898
00:49:29,280 --> 00:49:32,040
Speaker 1: one thing that's interesting is trying to get the dollar

899
00:49:32,080 --> 00:49:35,000
Speaker 1: stable coins out to the rest of the world. Tether

900
00:49:35,080 --> 00:49:37,000
Speaker 1: has said that in you know, they go boots on

901
00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:38,440
Speaker 1: the ground and try and help people learn how to

902
00:49:38,520 --> 00:49:40,160
Speaker 1: use stable coins and things like that. And they said

903
00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:42,480
Speaker 1: that boots on the ground they also find China they're

904
00:49:42,520 --> 00:49:44,520
Speaker 1: trying to help people get into their digital you want

905
00:49:44,560 --> 00:49:48,560
Speaker 1: as well. So it is a competition. Oh yeah. A

906
00:49:48,719 --> 00:49:52,359
Speaker 1: question I have is, you know, if that's true, do

907
00:49:52,480 --> 00:49:56,480
Speaker 1: the States do the banks? Does the US keep the

908
00:49:56,680 --> 00:49:59,840
Speaker 1: rules loose or loosen the rules to attract the capital.

909
00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:04,759
Speaker 1: So for example, if they push KYC regulations out, most

910
00:50:04,800 --> 00:50:07,080
Speaker 1: of the world can't the world that needs it, they

911
00:50:07,080 --> 00:50:10,239
Speaker 1: can't come into it now, and so like it there,

912
00:50:10,360 --> 00:50:13,799
Speaker 1: it's like we're gonna have to like keep regulations loose

913
00:50:13,880 --> 00:50:15,960
Speaker 1: or loosen them more to bring the world in if

914
00:50:15,960 --> 00:50:18,080
Speaker 1: that's what we want. But if we try to put

915
00:50:18,120 --> 00:50:21,360
Speaker 1: the KYC in and squeeze it and control the flow capital,

916
00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:24,600
Speaker 1: then we're going to exclude the world. It's a tough

917
00:50:24,680 --> 00:50:29,319
Speaker 1: predicament for a nation that wants to control everything spot on.

918
00:50:29,560 --> 00:50:34,680
Speaker 2: It will be very interesting to see. That's above my

919
00:50:34,719 --> 00:50:38,600
Speaker 2: pay grade which way it goes. But I do think

920
00:50:38,680 --> 00:50:43,560
Speaker 2: that more than anything, politicians want control and power, and

921
00:50:43,640 --> 00:50:48,200
Speaker 2: in order to proliferate US dollars stable coins, they will

922
00:50:48,239 --> 00:50:53,000
Speaker 2: have to sacrifice some of that control, oversight, and power

923
00:50:53,480 --> 00:50:58,440
Speaker 2: in exchange for world dominance, so to speak. And that

924
00:50:58,480 --> 00:51:02,480
Speaker 2: will be a discussion that has to be had by

925
00:51:02,520 --> 00:51:05,000
Speaker 2: those groups. And I hope they come out on the

926
00:51:05,040 --> 00:51:10,640
Speaker 2: side of loosening it up in exchange for dollar stable

927
00:51:10,680 --> 00:51:14,200
Speaker 2: coins proliferating. And I think the reason that they likely

928
00:51:14,239 --> 00:51:20,000
Speaker 2: will come out on the right side there is one

929
00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:24,520
Speaker 2: thing that they like equal to control is much. And

930
00:51:26,640 --> 00:51:29,120
Speaker 2: you know, if you perlifinate the stable coins, you get

931
00:51:29,160 --> 00:51:31,080
Speaker 2: a lot of US treasury sold because they got to

932
00:51:31,080 --> 00:51:31,839
Speaker 2: be backed one to one.

933
00:51:31,920 --> 00:51:35,759
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, So with all that kind of being said,

934
00:51:35,800 --> 00:51:40,440
Speaker 1: the backdrop we saw, you know, potentially paper bitcoin happening

935
00:51:40,880 --> 00:51:45,120
Speaker 1: from a bunch of different sources rehypothecated bitcoin. The price

936
00:51:45,160 --> 00:51:47,719
Speaker 1: of bitcoin, I think maybe caught a few people off

937
00:51:47,760 --> 00:51:53,560
Speaker 1: guard in twenty twenty five. Underline fundamentals seem like they

938
00:51:53,600 --> 00:51:56,200
Speaker 1: worked pretty good. The price didn't cooperate. It got smoked

939
00:51:56,200 --> 00:52:00,400
Speaker 1: by gold. In the same window we did an all

940
00:52:00,480 --> 00:52:02,560
Speaker 1: time high and not so long ago, what three four

941
00:52:02,640 --> 00:52:07,080
Speaker 1: months in quarter four high? Yeah, in quarter four yeah.

942
00:52:06,080 --> 00:52:10,120
Speaker 2: And so you know that's that's material, and then we

943
00:52:10,200 --> 00:52:15,799
Speaker 2: outperformed gold dramatically in prior periods. So I think we're

944
00:52:15,800 --> 00:52:17,840
Speaker 2: seeing a little bit of this kind of.

945
00:52:17,920 --> 00:52:20,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, when I look at when I look at the

946
00:52:21,320 --> 00:52:24,040
Speaker 1: when I look at the bitcoin price priced in gold,

947
00:52:25,440 --> 00:52:27,640
Speaker 1: I mean, yes, we have seen this before. But the

948
00:52:27,719 --> 00:52:30,920
Speaker 1: last time we saw this was twenty one to twenty

949
00:52:30,920 --> 00:52:33,560
Speaker 1: two when bitcoin was selling off in the last four

950
00:52:33,640 --> 00:52:36,000
Speaker 1: year cycle, and then it bottomed in twenty twenty two

951
00:52:36,000 --> 00:52:38,959
Speaker 1: when bitcoin bottomed at whatever sixteen thousand, and then we've

952
00:52:38,960 --> 00:52:42,080
Speaker 1: been beating gold ever since. And now gold is beating

953
00:52:42,080 --> 00:52:46,359
Speaker 1: bigwin again, sort of like another bear market cycle here

954
00:52:46,400 --> 00:52:47,719
Speaker 1: on the four year cycle. A lot of people have

955
00:52:47,719 --> 00:52:50,760
Speaker 1: been saying that's dead. I've sort of been in that camp,

956
00:52:50,800 --> 00:52:52,279
Speaker 1: to be honest with you, because I think it's like

957
00:52:52,320 --> 00:52:55,160
Speaker 1: global equid it's driving it. But if you look at

958
00:52:55,200 --> 00:52:57,120
Speaker 1: the gold chart, it sort of looks like we're in

959
00:52:57,160 --> 00:52:57,759
Speaker 1: that right now.

960
00:52:58,320 --> 00:53:02,000
Speaker 2: Yeah. I don't pay attention into too much technical analysis.

961
00:53:02,120 --> 00:53:06,680
Speaker 2: I think, you know, from a having cycle perspective, I

962
00:53:06,760 --> 00:53:10,680
Speaker 2: think that we've got some individual buyers out there right

963
00:53:10,719 --> 00:53:13,920
Speaker 2: now that buy more than the entire natural supply of

964
00:53:13,960 --> 00:53:19,000
Speaker 2: bitcoin that the miners produce, and so maybe that greatly

965
00:53:19,080 --> 00:53:24,200
Speaker 2: mitigates this cycle thing. I do think that we're suffering

966
00:53:24,239 --> 00:53:28,520
Speaker 2: now relative to gold. I strongly believe there will be

967
00:53:28,560 --> 00:53:33,399
Speaker 2: a catch up period where bitcoin materially outperforms gold. As

968
00:53:33,440 --> 00:53:36,959
Speaker 2: you mentioned earlier, the one thing that gold has right

969
00:53:37,000 --> 00:53:40,799
Speaker 2: now which is helping them materially is they've got nation

970
00:53:40,920 --> 00:53:45,800
Speaker 2: state buyers and for countries who print their own money

971
00:53:46,120 --> 00:53:48,880
Speaker 2: who want to buy something like how great is that?

972
00:53:49,040 --> 00:53:52,600
Speaker 1: Yeah? I know you've worked with a lot of very

973
00:53:52,640 --> 00:53:56,000
Speaker 1: wealthy people and setting up funds, and you're on the

974
00:53:56,040 --> 00:53:58,799
Speaker 1: bitcoin treasury side of things, working with big investors on

975
00:53:58,840 --> 00:54:03,160
Speaker 1: that side. Do you think from that side of the market,

976
00:54:03,360 --> 00:54:06,240
Speaker 1: is there some growing concerns in the bitcoin space, maybe

977
00:54:06,280 --> 00:54:10,719
Speaker 1: specifically around quantum or some other market structure, or is

978
00:54:10,719 --> 00:54:12,520
Speaker 1: it sort of just kind of like noise that people

979
00:54:12,560 --> 00:54:14,080
Speaker 1: start talking about when the price dips.

980
00:54:15,640 --> 00:54:20,680
Speaker 2: I think the quantum thing is such fun, you know,

981
00:54:20,880 --> 00:54:26,840
Speaker 2: and it's like you get these people who want to

982
00:54:26,920 --> 00:54:32,560
Speaker 2: create and elevate a problem because they want to get

983
00:54:32,640 --> 00:54:36,680
Speaker 2: rich on providing the solution. You know. Look at and

984
00:54:36,760 --> 00:54:41,880
Speaker 2: politicians are famous for this. Right Al Gore screamed his

985
00:54:41,960 --> 00:54:44,520
Speaker 2: head off about climate change, climate change, climate change is

986
00:54:44,560 --> 00:54:47,839
Speaker 2: still doing it, but he's personally made like over three

987
00:54:47,920 --> 00:54:53,280
Speaker 2: hundred million dollars from solving this fictious problem right as

988
00:54:53,320 --> 00:54:58,279
Speaker 2: he flies to Davos on his private jet. So I

989
00:54:58,320 --> 00:55:01,520
Speaker 2: think we see some of that in our world on

990
00:55:01,560 --> 00:55:05,520
Speaker 2: the quantum side of things. You know. I don't think

991
00:55:05,600 --> 00:55:09,959
Speaker 2: quantum computing is a material mid term risk in any

992
00:55:10,000 --> 00:55:16,240
Speaker 2: way for bitcoin. I think the number of logical cubits

993
00:55:16,280 --> 00:55:21,600
Speaker 2: that are needed to uh, you know, hack bitcoin are

994
00:55:21,840 --> 00:55:25,360
Speaker 2: somewhere between two hundred and two thousand, and the best

995
00:55:25,640 --> 00:55:28,200
Speaker 2: estimates that I've seen say that we'll be at two

996
00:55:28,239 --> 00:55:32,439
Speaker 2: to five by twenty thirty. So. And then the other

997
00:55:32,520 --> 00:55:37,600
Speaker 2: thing is I think that when the time comes, much

998
00:55:37,719 --> 00:55:40,920
Speaker 2: like an iPhone, you get in, you know, a system

999
00:55:41,040 --> 00:55:43,800
Speaker 2: update that gets pushed out right, there'll be a quantum

1000
00:55:43,880 --> 00:55:47,520
Speaker 2: resistant update, you know, when the time is right, and

1001
00:55:47,920 --> 00:55:52,280
Speaker 2: it'll be approved, you know, and it'll get and Bitcoin

1002
00:55:52,320 --> 00:55:55,480
Speaker 2: will get updated relatively quickly and be quantum resistant. But

1003
00:55:55,520 --> 00:55:58,280
Speaker 2: the more interesting thing to me is pretty much everything

1004
00:55:58,280 --> 00:56:01,200
Speaker 2: else is going to get hacked first. The Federal Reserve

1005
00:56:01,280 --> 00:56:03,200
Speaker 2: is going to get hacked. JP Morgan's going to get

1006
00:56:03,200 --> 00:56:05,960
Speaker 2: hacked Google, and your Gmail is going to get hacked.

1007
00:56:06,320 --> 00:56:09,479
Speaker 2: All of this is going to like be hacked long

1008
00:56:09,560 --> 00:56:12,719
Speaker 2: before Bitcoin, so we will have ample time and we

1009
00:56:12,760 --> 00:56:16,160
Speaker 2: will have ample financial incentive as a financial network to

1010
00:56:16,280 --> 00:56:19,760
Speaker 2: fix it. And I think the folks promoting this fud

1011
00:56:20,360 --> 00:56:23,560
Speaker 2: in particular on Twitter, I think it's a really shitty,

1012
00:56:23,600 --> 00:56:28,120
Speaker 2: pernicious thing to do, and I don't really give it

1013
00:56:28,800 --> 00:56:29,400
Speaker 2: much attention.

1014
00:56:29,640 --> 00:56:31,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree with you on that. I mean, Satoshi

1015
00:56:31,920 --> 00:56:35,120
Speaker 1: warned us of quantum before he left. People have been

1016
00:56:35,360 --> 00:56:38,520
Speaker 1: knowing about this, working on solutions. To your point, there's

1017
00:56:38,640 --> 00:56:40,799
Speaker 1: plenty of solutions that are available to us. It just

1018
00:56:40,840 --> 00:56:42,799
Speaker 1: takes one update, we transfer our coins to a new

1019
00:56:42,880 --> 00:56:45,839
Speaker 1: quantum address. It just seems like such an easy thing

1020
00:56:46,640 --> 00:56:49,360
Speaker 1: to deal with. So to blow it all out of

1021
00:56:49,360 --> 00:56:51,120
Speaker 1: your portion over that. And the other thing i'd say

1022
00:56:51,160 --> 00:56:53,640
Speaker 1: is to your point, we'd see everything get hacked before Bitcoin.

1023
00:56:54,000 --> 00:56:56,480
Speaker 1: What I would also just add to that is you

1024
00:56:56,520 --> 00:57:00,000
Speaker 1: said Google would get hacked. It's probably Google or something

1025
00:57:00,160 --> 00:57:02,360
Speaker 1: like Google that would actually have the quantum.

1026
00:57:02,560 --> 00:57:05,040
Speaker 2: So it's not like exactly and how quickly are they

1027
00:57:05,040 --> 00:57:07,560
Speaker 2: going to put out something that hacks the encryption on

1028
00:57:07,680 --> 00:57:10,520
Speaker 2: all of your Gmail, all of your Google everything, right.

1029
00:57:10,480 --> 00:57:12,080
Speaker 1: Not so bright. So it's not going to come from

1030
00:57:12,120 --> 00:57:15,360
Speaker 1: some like basement dweller code or that like comes up

1031
00:57:15,400 --> 00:57:17,560
Speaker 1: with this malicious quantum. It's going to come from a

1032
00:57:17,600 --> 00:57:20,240
Speaker 1: Google or some sort of an institution like that, and

1033
00:57:20,320 --> 00:57:22,480
Speaker 1: so we're going to know about it. They're not going

1034
00:57:22,560 --> 00:57:24,520
Speaker 1: to be using it for evil, at least at first

1035
00:57:24,600 --> 00:57:26,800
Speaker 1: until it leaks. So then we have like even a

1036
00:57:26,880 --> 00:57:29,000
Speaker 1: longer head start because again, right, they're not going to

1037
00:57:29,000 --> 00:57:31,200
Speaker 1: be hacking the d D. You know, Google is not

1038
00:57:31,200 --> 00:57:33,400
Speaker 1: going to do that. I wouldn't think and they were.

1039
00:57:33,600 --> 00:57:36,600
Speaker 2: I think we're going to someone's going to hack into

1040
00:57:36,600 --> 00:57:38,080
Speaker 2: the d D at some point.

1041
00:57:38,840 --> 00:57:43,400
Speaker 1: They already do, right, And so we're going you.

1042
00:57:43,360 --> 00:57:47,080
Speaker 2: Know, we'll still have plenty of time, you know, when

1043
00:57:47,120 --> 00:57:53,520
Speaker 2: that happens to craft a quantum solution and we will.

1044
00:57:53,880 --> 00:57:56,560
Speaker 2: You know, there's there's you know, a couple of trillion

1045
00:57:56,600 --> 00:57:59,080
Speaker 2: dollars and by then, you know, maybe many many trillion

1046
00:57:59,120 --> 00:58:02,800
Speaker 2: dollar network. Financial network has plenty of incentive to protect

1047
00:58:02,800 --> 00:58:04,120
Speaker 2: itself and it will.

1048
00:58:05,320 --> 00:58:08,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, well we went round the world. That

1049
00:58:08,880 --> 00:58:11,840
Speaker 1: was a really helpful conversation, Eric, I appreciate you taking

1050
00:58:11,880 --> 00:58:15,400
Speaker 1: the time to do that. An I know you're you know,

1051
00:58:15,440 --> 00:58:17,320
Speaker 1: I know you're working with a couple of bitcoin companies.

1052
00:58:17,320 --> 00:58:20,040
Speaker 1: You've you're working with RANJ. I think it's called down

1053
00:58:20,120 --> 00:58:23,440
Speaker 1: in Brazil core Scientific. Anything that you want to like

1054
00:58:23,680 --> 00:58:26,000
Speaker 1: bring people's attention to, or anything least to go take

1055
00:58:26,000 --> 00:58:26,440
Speaker 1: a look at.

1056
00:58:27,040 --> 00:58:31,200
Speaker 2: I mean, right, you know, the Orange BTC in Brazil

1057
00:58:31,720 --> 00:58:35,800
Speaker 2: is a very any, very unique situation. The awareness in

1058
00:58:35,840 --> 00:58:38,280
Speaker 2: Brazil isn't quite there yet, the volume is not quite

1059
00:58:38,320 --> 00:58:41,560
Speaker 2: there yet. So the stock is trading at a material

1060
00:58:41,600 --> 00:58:46,560
Speaker 2: discount to nav So for Brazilian, for Brazilians in particular,

1061
00:58:46,640 --> 00:58:49,320
Speaker 2: or anybody who has money that they can invest in

1062
00:58:49,680 --> 00:58:53,160
Speaker 2: Latin America. I think that's that's a really good opportunity.

1063
00:58:53,240 --> 00:58:57,640
Speaker 2: And in Brazil in particular, there are ways for companies

1064
00:58:57,720 --> 00:59:03,160
Speaker 2: to distribute asset. That's two shareholders which is essentially a

1065
00:59:03,200 --> 00:59:05,360
Speaker 2: way to bring it back to NAV should it ever

1066
00:59:05,480 --> 00:59:08,640
Speaker 2: need to happen, so that gap is going to close.

1067
00:59:08,920 --> 00:59:11,520
Speaker 2: The other nice thing about it for Brazilians in particular

1068
00:59:12,240 --> 00:59:15,960
Speaker 2: is if you own a publicly traded stock in Brazil,

1069
00:59:16,160 --> 00:59:19,000
Speaker 2: there's a lower tax rate than there is for buying

1070
00:59:19,040 --> 00:59:22,520
Speaker 2: and selling bitcoin. It's like fifteen percent versus twenty two percent,

1071
00:59:22,840 --> 00:59:25,280
Speaker 2: so it's like fifty percent less tax. So in a

1072
00:59:25,360 --> 00:59:29,000
Speaker 2: lot of ways, it's a very financially good way to

1073
00:59:29,640 --> 00:59:32,600
Speaker 2: have bitcoin exposure, especially if you're getting it out of discounts. NAV.

1074
00:59:32,800 --> 00:59:35,720
Speaker 2: So I think that one's gonna do just fine. We

1075
00:59:35,880 --> 00:59:39,120
Speaker 2: just got to keep work on working on creating away.

1076
00:59:39,720 --> 00:59:43,520
Speaker 1: My overall take just in general on the treasury space

1077
00:59:43,600 --> 00:59:47,200
Speaker 1: is like they have the bitcoin, just don't lose the bitcoin.

1078
00:59:47,440 --> 00:59:49,200
Speaker 1: Because if you believe bitcoin's going to hit two hundred

1079
00:59:49,200 --> 00:59:53,240
Speaker 1: and three hundred and five hundred a million, it's it's

1080
00:59:53,320 --> 00:59:56,040
Speaker 1: kind of go up, right, and so just wait, maybe

1081
00:59:56,040 --> 00:59:57,680
Speaker 1: your time time frame has to be a little bit

1082
00:59:57,720 --> 01:00:00,400
Speaker 1: longer than you would hoped it would be. Now company

1083
01:00:00,520 --> 01:00:02,800
Speaker 1: is in danger of losing the bitcoin. That's another story

1084
01:00:03,200 --> 01:00:05,000
Speaker 1: from these Most of these companies as long as.

1085
01:00:05,000 --> 01:00:09,280
Speaker 2: No definitely not there's where the bitcoin is secure and

1086
01:00:09,520 --> 01:00:14,200
Speaker 2: there is a very teeny teeny amount of debt relative

1087
01:00:14,280 --> 01:00:18,480
Speaker 2: to the assets, and now that we're not in we're

1088
01:00:18,520 --> 01:00:20,680
Speaker 2: not in any risk of losing the bitcoin. There.

1089
01:00:21,240 --> 01:00:22,880
Speaker 1: Cool. Well, let's wrap it up. Eric, let me ask

1090
01:00:22,920 --> 01:00:26,040
Speaker 1: you one last question. What would you say the number

1091
01:00:26,040 --> 01:00:30,160
Speaker 1: one mistake you see smart people making right now maybe

1092
01:00:30,160 --> 01:00:33,560
Speaker 1: where they're getting confused the between the narrative that they're

1093
01:00:33,560 --> 01:00:36,080
Speaker 1: seeing and then like the underlying structure of the market.

1094
01:00:36,920 --> 01:00:39,560
Speaker 2: I think it's a couple fold. We're seeing a little

1095
01:00:39,600 --> 01:00:43,600
Speaker 2: bit of a lack of enthusiasm, and I think part

1096
01:00:43,600 --> 01:00:46,000
Speaker 2: of this comes from you know, we've been talking about

1097
01:00:46,040 --> 01:00:48,320
Speaker 2: the gold analogy, and I think it's a fair analogy.

1098
01:00:48,840 --> 01:00:52,040
Speaker 2: But if you rewind to a time of pre bitcoin,

1099
01:00:52,040 --> 01:00:54,720
Speaker 2: because you and I have been around for a minute,

1100
01:00:55,240 --> 01:00:58,200
Speaker 2: you know, gold was not sexy. You know, there was

1101
01:00:58,280 --> 01:01:00,480
Speaker 2: still no shortage of people out there. We would like

1102
01:01:00,680 --> 01:01:04,240
Speaker 2: never own gold, right like I would own gold. And

1103
01:01:04,320 --> 01:01:06,720
Speaker 2: so I think there are a lot of people that

1104
01:01:07,120 --> 01:01:09,840
Speaker 2: as we become more and more like gold, that there's

1105
01:01:09,880 --> 01:01:12,000
Speaker 2: going to be groups of people who are a little

1106
01:01:12,040 --> 01:01:14,040
Speaker 2: bit ignorant to what it is. And you know, it's

1107
01:01:14,040 --> 01:01:17,520
Speaker 2: not appealing to them, and that's okay. We don't have

1108
01:01:17,600 --> 01:01:20,160
Speaker 2: to be for everyone, and to some degree it's good

1109
01:01:20,160 --> 01:01:23,320
Speaker 2: that we're not for everyone. I mean, if every millionaire

1110
01:01:24,600 --> 01:01:27,960
Speaker 2: you know in the United States wanted to buy a bitcoin,

1111
01:01:28,960 --> 01:01:31,600
Speaker 2: they can have a third of the bitcoin, right, So

1112
01:01:33,440 --> 01:01:35,200
Speaker 2: you know, we're not going to be for everybody. But

1113
01:01:35,240 --> 01:01:38,040
Speaker 2: that's okay. I do think that, like nothing, Cell is

1114
01:01:38,120 --> 01:01:40,320
Speaker 2: like winning. And we've got a lot of people that

1115
01:01:40,440 --> 01:01:46,760
Speaker 2: haven't lived through some of the downturns in bitcoin, and

1116
01:01:47,160 --> 01:01:50,560
Speaker 2: some of those folks are getting a little gun shy.

1117
01:01:51,120 --> 01:01:54,000
Speaker 2: And you know, people think holding is easy, and I

1118
01:01:54,040 --> 01:01:57,400
Speaker 2: always say, like they'll say, you got lucky, but it's

1119
01:01:57,440 --> 01:01:59,240
Speaker 2: not easy and it's not lucky. You have to do

1120
01:01:59,280 --> 01:02:02,160
Speaker 2: your own research, have your conviction, and that's what keeps

1121
01:02:02,160 --> 01:02:05,520
Speaker 2: you from selling when when things seem a little bit bleaching.

1122
01:02:06,120 --> 01:02:09,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, well good stuff, Eric, Appreciate you taking

1123
01:02:09,560 --> 01:02:12,160
Speaker 1: the time out of your busy schedule or yacht life

1124
01:02:12,240 --> 01:02:16,000
Speaker 1: I guess, uh, pleasure yacht life to come come talk

1125
01:02:16,040 --> 01:02:18,160
Speaker 1: to us over here. We'll wrap it up with that.

1126
01:02:18,200 --> 01:02:20,840
Speaker 2: Thank you, awesome man. Thanks a lot