Speaker 1: A brand new football week to talk about Here on
Speaker 1: tape its Bobo Shoes and Dan Orlovsky Scott p Olie,
Speaker 1: the podcast that takes you behind the xs and os
Speaker 1: and we go deep dive into football. For all the
Speaker 1: football nerds out there like me, it's great listening to
Speaker 1: Dan and Scott break it down every week. And guys,
Speaker 1: there is no team as the jumping off point for
Speaker 1: this week on tapeds that people seem to be trying
Speaker 1: to do a deeper dive on and getting less answers
Speaker 1: than the Kansas City Chiefs. What is wrong with this offense?
Speaker 1: What is wrong with their defense? And Patrick Mahomes. There
Speaker 1: are a lot of questions starring around this team. Here's
Speaker 1: what the quarterback had to say. I mean, it's it's
Speaker 1: it's kind of been one thing here and there each
Speaker 1: and every week. It's not like a whole overarching one thing.
Speaker 1: I mean today it was probably me who just pressing
Speaker 1: a little bit too early in the game, and then
Speaker 1: it kind of got down and we were in that
Speaker 1: kind of mode where you're kind of no huddle but
Speaker 1: you don't want to be in. In In the NFL, you
Speaker 1: can actually a little bit, but it's hard to get
Speaker 1: sustained drives. Um, so it's gotta better earlier in the
Speaker 1: games so we don't get behind like we did today. Well,
Speaker 1: maybe Dana does have to be the quarterback. I don't know.
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously he's not playing the way we've seen
Speaker 1: Patrick Mahomes play in the past. But it seems like
Speaker 1: the problems for this team go way beyond Patrick Mahomes,
Speaker 1: Andy Reid and what always used to work, a seamless
Speaker 1: offense that would just glide down the field seemingly at
Speaker 1: ease every game. What what do you think the problem is?
Speaker 1: There's a lot of problems to your point, problem, I think,
Speaker 1: so I'll start on the other side of the football. Defensively, One,
Speaker 1: everything in football is connected. You guys know that it
Speaker 1: is always connected. So the Chiefs defense is not good.
Speaker 1: They give up a lot of points. That impacts the
Speaker 1: way philosophically that defenses are going to play against the
Speaker 1: Chief's offense, and that impacts philosophically the way the Chiefs
Speaker 1: offense is going to try and go about their business. Right. So,
Speaker 1: as an opposing team, when you play the Chiefs, you know,
Speaker 1: are right, our offense is gonna score some points. We're
Speaker 1: gonna score twenty eight plus points. More than likely they're
Speaker 1: given up, I think averaging like third. Do you want
Speaker 1: our thirty two points defensively? So when you play the
Speaker 1: Chiefs offensively, you feel comfortable you're gonna get to a
Speaker 1: round thirty. So then that frames again philosophically, how do
Speaker 1: we want to play defense against the Chief's offense? What's
Speaker 1: the best way for us to slow indoor stop them
Speaker 1: from scoring thirty points? Number one, teams are playing too
Speaker 1: high safety at in a ridiculous rate against the Chiefs.
Speaker 1: Is that something new? Absolutely not. This is a rather lather,
Speaker 1: rinse and repeat thing. Everybody has been doing this against
Speaker 1: the Chiefs for probably close to three years now. Teams
Speaker 1: are playing a lot of two high safety now fundamentally
Speaker 1: in offensive football. When you get two high safeties, your
Speaker 1: number one goal should be run the football. It is
Speaker 1: a football is a math game. It always has been
Speaker 1: to me. If I've got six guys blocking and you
Speaker 1: only have five, which is often the case in a
Speaker 1: two high shell defense, I should be able to run
Speaker 1: the ball wherever, whenever, however I want so. The Chiefs
Speaker 1: aren't doing enough of that. They aren't kind of banging
Speaker 1: their head against the wall with we are going to
Speaker 1: run the football. Number two. And this is a thing
Speaker 1: that you and I have talked about at nauseum a
Speaker 1: little bit, Bob. I think that the RPO offense, the
Speaker 1: run pass option, has hurt this offensive line significantly and
Speaker 1: it's affecting Patrick Mahomes number one. The offensive line. There's
Speaker 1: no pop in their run game. There's no Okay, we
Speaker 1: are putting our hands in the ground. We're calling a run.
Speaker 1: I do not care what the defense is in. We're
Speaker 1: gonna get four yards. I don't you know there, it's
Speaker 1: always well, we're gonna call a run and if we
Speaker 1: if we get a half a body too much, maybe
Speaker 1: Patrick will throw the ball. You know, you watch the
Speaker 1: offensive line come off the ball and there's no pop
Speaker 1: in the past aspect of it. You watch this offensive
Speaker 1: line come off the ball and you can see it
Speaker 1: on tape. They will start to peek back to see
Speaker 1: if Patrick has pulled the ball to throw the pass option.
Speaker 1: So that's the first aspect that in the run game
Speaker 1: it's really impacting them. The second thing is when you
Speaker 1: live in the RPO world, there's a quarterback, there's very
Speaker 1: little rhythm to your feet you know you are catch
Speaker 1: place ball down read a defender, either give it or
Speaker 1: throw it right now, there's very okay, I'm dropping back
Speaker 1: number one, number two, my feet tell me to get
Speaker 1: to number three to a checkdown my feet. There's no
Speaker 1: rhythm to the checkdown for Patrick Mahomes. So all those
Speaker 1: variables are the fundamental reason why the Chiefs offense has
Speaker 1: had moments of stagnant play. Obviously the turnovers are a
Speaker 1: result of those symptoms. Yeah, Dan, you know you're hitting
Speaker 1: on a keyword, and you mentioned the word fundamentals, and
Speaker 1: there's an absence of some real fundamental things going on
Speaker 1: right here. I do want to talk touch on you
Speaker 1: talk about the pop of the offensive line on play action,
Speaker 1: and you know, I was forcing around to be around
Speaker 1: some pretty good coaches and watch them coach play action.
Speaker 1: It's r p O S play action, same thing you're
Speaker 1: baking them, you know. And one of the things that
Speaker 1: I remember the most about the best play action team,
Speaker 1: it was not only the ball handling and the footwork
Speaker 1: and the track of the running back and the quarterback,
Speaker 1: but was the offensive line. When you saw a team
Speaker 1: that could run the play action really well, you could
Speaker 1: you didn't just see it, right, you you're talking about
Speaker 1: what we could see on tape. The other thing is
Speaker 1: you heard that offensive line. There was a sound of
Speaker 1: them coming off the ball. And again this is this
Speaker 1: is where my scouting thing comes in. It's you know,
Speaker 1: there's certain things that you can hear and feel and
Speaker 1: sense when you're on the field and when you're around
Speaker 1: Kyle Shanahan, Mike Shanahan, Charlie Weiss, Josh McDaniels. Some of
Speaker 1: the best play action teams that I've been around, Ron
Speaker 1: Earhart back in the day, Dan Henning. Their play action.
Speaker 1: You could hear their play action coming and it was
Speaker 1: enough where the offensive line would come off. It's with
Speaker 1: such intensity. The defense even thought it was it was
Speaker 1: it was this visual thing that they saw the play action,
Speaker 1: but they heard a play that sounded like a run.
Speaker 1: So I don't want to spend too much time on that.
Speaker 1: But the other thing is the fundamentals of this. It's
Speaker 1: the turnovers. Right. They are dead last tied with the
Speaker 1: Jacksonville Jaguars at minus eleven and turnovers, and they've had
Speaker 1: some other turnovers that they've gotten away with. You go
Speaker 1: back to this game in particular, we're looking at go
Speaker 1: back to the first court. Tennessee's up seven nothing, The
Speaker 1: Chiefs have the ball third seven at their you know,
Speaker 1: the minus forty nine, their own forty nine yard line.
Speaker 1: Bud Dupree gets the edge on Orlando Brown, strip sax Mahomes.
Speaker 1: Now Kansas City recovers. But the thing is, you know,
Speaker 1: we've talked about this before. Just because you do something
Speaker 1: wrong and it works out in your favor doesn't mean
Speaker 1: that it's right. You know. One of the things that
Speaker 1: again the best coaches I was around that they always
Speaker 1: preached was making sure that you don't plant the seeds
Speaker 1: for future defeats, and not just defeats in games, but
Speaker 1: in series and in turnovers. So now you know that
Speaker 1: we've seen this. This has been all year. This offensive
Speaker 1: line has not been performing in Orlando. Brown want to
Speaker 1: go to in the city because he wanted to play
Speaker 1: left tackle, saddle up, buckle up. Here we go. But
Speaker 1: he's getting beat by bud Dupree, and and you know,
Speaker 1: so so that happens. Now. The other thing is happening
Speaker 1: is one of the things of magic of Patrick Mahomes,
Speaker 1: who I still think is magical and is going to
Speaker 1: be magical and continue to be that way. The extended
Speaker 1: players are not working out the way they used to.
Speaker 1: Can go back to the second quarter. Case's got first
Speaker 1: and ten on their own, twenty five Titans are already up,
Speaker 1: you know, seventeen nothing at this point in time. Nobody's open,
Speaker 1: which again, this is becoming a problem. The people are
Speaker 1: not getting open, which puts pressure on the offensive line,
Speaker 1: which hasn't jailed yet. He's trying to squeeze one in
Speaker 1: on this play, gets tipped in the air and intercepted.
Speaker 1: Tennessee gets the ball. You know, they only have to
Speaker 1: go forty six yards right now because they've gotten the
Speaker 1: interception in Kansas City territory. Touchdown, and now the game's
Speaker 1: twenty four nothing. We're still in the second quarter, and
Speaker 1: now we go to this place again. We're still in
Speaker 1: the first half, but we're now we're under two minutes.
Speaker 1: Mahomes scrambles terrific scramble thirteen yards. But I encourage everyone
Speaker 1: to go back and watch the tape. The way that
Speaker 1: he is carrying the ball the entire time that he's
Speaker 1: running for thirteen yards. This is the kind of stuff
Speaker 1: that Patrick has been able to get away within the past.
Speaker 1: He's not protecting the ball. He's got it in one hand.
Speaker 1: It's out as this play is ending, and he's going down.
Speaker 1: Sure enough, he's stripped balls. Turnover again. Tennessee gets the
Speaker 1: ball with less than two minutes eight plays, only eighteen
Speaker 1: yards ahead of field goal. We turned around and it's
Speaker 1: twenty seven nothing. And I think part of what's happening
Speaker 1: here is some of the things that you know, you
Speaker 1: can get away with not being fundamentally sound for a
Speaker 1: certain amount of time if you have rare talent and
Speaker 1: the Good Lord is looking over you. At some point
Speaker 1: in time, those things are going to manifest themselves into
Speaker 1: unsuccessful plays. And that's what I'm seeing right now, in
Speaker 1: addition to the stuff you mentioned, Dan, Yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: it was twenty four nothing and the Chiefs had run
Speaker 1: eleven offense plays. I wanted to touch on the the
Speaker 1: interception play right because I think it's a big teaching
Speaker 1: point for everybody listening that there is a difference when
Speaker 1: I say the rhythm of your feet listening to the
Speaker 1: rhythm of her feet to your check down. There is
Speaker 1: a big difference between checkdown an outlet for a quarterback. Okay,
Speaker 1: a checkdown is something that is built into the progression
Speaker 1: of a play. Hey, we are going one, two to three.
Speaker 1: And on that interception that first and tent where he
Speaker 1: scrambles to his left and he throws back across his body.
Speaker 1: Three is so he goes a little flash fake, backs
Speaker 1: on his left, flash fake, and the back is coming across,
Speaker 1: so he's gonna cross Patrick. He's gonna help a little
Speaker 1: bit in protection with the chip, and then he's gonna
Speaker 1: run what's called the check M. So if you think
Speaker 1: of the McDonald's arch right, the M one half of that.
Speaker 1: So he's gonna go check M. So it's gonna almost
Speaker 1: look like a little bit of that arch loop and
Speaker 1: you're really just trying to get the back to start
Speaker 1: going downhill at the defense while also looking to the quarterback.
Speaker 1: And so Patrick goes. Number one is Travis Kelsey on
Speaker 1: a little bit of it in an out whip route,
Speaker 1: It's not there. Number two is an inbreaker, it's not there.
Speaker 1: If you go one hitch to Kelsey, to hitch that
Speaker 1: that inner basic and three to your check m. He
Speaker 1: is going to catch that ball, and it is going
Speaker 1: to be at worst if he catches the ball and
Speaker 1: starts to trip on his own feet. It's going to
Speaker 1: be second in two. That is in the rhythm of
Speaker 1: the play. That is a in rhythm check down. Now
Speaker 1: an outlet is, hey, there's the the ball has to
Speaker 1: get out of your hands. You are scrambling, there's a sack,
Speaker 1: you're under duress, and somebody has leaked out, and is
Speaker 1: it is your only option to get the ball of
Speaker 1: your hands. That is the difference between the rhythm of
Speaker 1: a check down and an outlet for a quarterback. And
Speaker 1: that's what I say when Patrick has got to really
Speaker 1: and the Chiefs have to really start to hone in
Speaker 1: on this is when you start to listen to your
Speaker 1: feet way more, which again is not part of that
Speaker 1: RPO offense. You get into the rhythm of your checkdowns
Speaker 1: way more often, and then you don't make those mistakes
Speaker 1: that right now are really hurting this football team. Well,
Speaker 1: let me say you're a good partner, because obviously working
Speaker 1: the golden arch is in there brings me into the conversation.
Speaker 1: So like, I appreciate that you're you're now talking about
Speaker 1: metaphor understand lonely I can see it. Hey, look real quick,
Speaker 1: we only have a minute or two left in this segment.
Speaker 1: Every time We talk about the Chiefs every week, though
Speaker 1: it seems like our conversation is what's going wrong with
Speaker 1: them rather than what the opponents sometimes is doing right.
Speaker 1: How about a quick thought on Tennessee. I mean, this
Speaker 1: is a team that I watched a couple of weeks
Speaker 1: ago lose to the Jets and and Scott to your point,
Speaker 1: offensive line, imposing your will physically win. Like we spend
Speaker 1: all our time with the Chiefs talking about Kelsey and
Speaker 1: Tyree Hill and Mahomes and his magic and Mikole Hardman.
Speaker 1: I mean, what's the biggest problem arguably with their offense.
Speaker 1: It breaks down on the offensive line, and it short
Speaker 1: circuits everything that they want to do. When the Titans
Speaker 1: get it going, there aren't too many breakdown on that
Speaker 1: offensive line. Mike Rabel is such a stickler for doing
Speaker 1: things the right way, fundamentals and just perfection and detail,
Speaker 1: and you know, it's part of what he learned as
Speaker 1: a player. And again, so I've known Mike forever since
Speaker 1: since the time he came out of college and he
Speaker 1: had those couple of first years as a player with Pittsburgh.
Speaker 1: We brought into um New England, and he was with
Speaker 1: me in Kansas City. Also, Mike was a student of
Speaker 1: the game. And Mike was not a rare physical talent.
Speaker 1: He had to do everything right in order to be
Speaker 1: a good player, and he was not a good player.
Speaker 1: He was a very good player because he did things right.
Speaker 1: He was prepared mentally, he did things right fundamentally, and
Speaker 1: that is the image of the team that he wants.
Speaker 1: That's why John Robinson goes out and gets the type
Speaker 1: of players that they may not be, they may not
Speaker 1: have a whole lot of sizzle, but what they're gonna
Speaker 1: do is they're not gonna They're gonna try not to
Speaker 1: lose football games. But I have to say this. You
Speaker 1: know what people forget sometimes is every team in the
Speaker 1: National Football League is playing with pro football players. Even
Speaker 1: the backups are pro football players. These guys are the
Speaker 1: best of the best in the world. And you know,
Speaker 1: I mentioned this last week. Every once in a while,
Speaker 1: you know, Betty Crocker is gonna burn the Brownies and
Speaker 1: and the Jets burn the Titans Brownies. And I think
Speaker 1: that they learned from that. And I think that's what
Speaker 1: good teams do, is they learn from making mistakes and
Speaker 1: not playing well. One week, I could keep it simple
Speaker 1: for the Titans number one defensively, they do a good
Speaker 1: job with coverage disguise what that does for a quarterback
Speaker 1: and makes you just hesitate for a second. They got
Speaker 1: two first rounders on their defensive line that are playing
Speaker 1: really good football, and they got a second rounder that's
Speaker 1: playing really good football. So Landry's playing good football, dupri
Speaker 1: is playing good football, and Simmons playing good football. Right,
Speaker 1: so that's tied together. Offensively, they have the mon stars offense.
Speaker 1: I'm just a p s A to everybody listening that
Speaker 1: is watching the Titans. If you line up defensively to
Speaker 1: stop Derrick Henry, you are going to get gashed by
Speaker 1: those receivers. They their skill position players Bob skill a position,
Speaker 1: not their tight ends. Skilled position guys. Henry, A. J.
Speaker 1: Brown and Julio average six pounds. No one in the
Speaker 1: NFL is like that, nobody, no one in the NFL
Speaker 1: defensively can match up to them. So they're big boys
Speaker 1: on the perimeter are a problem for defenses. If you
Speaker 1: line up to stop Derrick Henry, you are going to
Speaker 1: get play ash and passed to death. And when they
Speaker 1: lost to the Jets, there without Julio and A. J. Brown,
Speaker 1: so obviously that takes away a big part of how
Speaker 1: they want to play. A team right now that is
Speaker 1: playing exactly the way they want to play. Though, the
Speaker 1: Cincinnati Bengals, we're gonna talk about them when we come back,
Speaker 1: because that was a statement win for them this past
Speaker 1: week in Baltimore. And also Dan and I were a
Speaker 1: part of history, a very unusual version of history. But
Speaker 1: we will tell you about that when we come back.
Speaker 1: One Pets back here on TEPTS Bobo shooes Him, Dan
Speaker 1: Or Loves Kip, Scott Pioli, the podcast that takes you
Speaker 1: behind the xs and ohs and guys. We've been, i
Speaker 1: think all season with the Cincinnati Bengals having this discussion,
Speaker 1: waiting for a reason to say they should have taken
Speaker 1: Penny Soul, they should have addressed the offensive line this
Speaker 1: team with the role draft, and every time we want
Speaker 1: to have that conversation, Jamaar Chase does what Jamar Chase
Speaker 1: does again. Joe Burrow looks like he's got plenty of
Speaker 1: protection upfront, and this team looks like they are really
Speaker 1: four real? Was that as much of a statement went
Speaker 1: on Sunday as we all may be on the surface
Speaker 1: think it was well. I thought it was the most
Speaker 1: emphatic and impressive win by anybody in the NFL this season.
Speaker 1: Cincinnati to go down and beat down Baltimore almost in
Speaker 1: a way that Baltimore has usually beat up people over
Speaker 1: the last decade plus. Uh. One thing that stood out
Speaker 1: to me defensively, Bob, if you go to the second quarter,
Speaker 1: there's a third and eleven and um. Something that the
Speaker 1: Baltimore Raven defense has been notorious for I played against
Speaker 1: it too many times. Is in that situation. Here comes
Speaker 1: all out man to man coverage, zero pressure, and you
Speaker 1: as a quarterbacker sitting there going good gosh, dude, I
Speaker 1: know one guy is gonna get unblocked. I gotta get
Speaker 1: this ball out in one point three seconds. I'm gonna
Speaker 1: get hit, and I've got to find a come pieient
Speaker 1: for a first down. So they show that all out pressure.
Speaker 1: Lamar drifts to his right, the backside linebacker becomes unblocked.
Speaker 1: There's nowhere for the Lamar to throw the football because
Speaker 1: the defenders are squatting at ten yards. Ball has gotta
Speaker 1: come out and there's an incomplete throw only a field
Speaker 1: goal opportunity. So then, as a quarterback, now the seed
Speaker 1: has been planted by the defense. Alright, third down eight plus,
Speaker 1: here comes zero pressure. You better have a stinking answer.
Speaker 1: You gotta figure out who's getting blocked, who's not getting blocked.
Speaker 1: You better know where the ball can get thrown for
Speaker 1: a completion for a first down. Then fast forward to
Speaker 1: the fourth quarter. It's only a ten point game. Fourth
Speaker 1: and seven, the Ravens have to go for it. Here
Speaker 1: comes that all out pressure again. Man, the man across
Speaker 1: the board, everybody up until the line of scrimmage ball
Speaker 1: gets snapped. Lamar is gonna drift his left because he
Speaker 1: full slides his offensive line from the right to the left,
Speaker 1: so the right defensive end is gonna come unblocked. He
Speaker 1: drifts from it because he knows that's the unblocked defender.
Speaker 1: Everybody on the Bengals defense at the line of scrimmage
Speaker 1: comes into the offensive line right first for one quick second,
Speaker 1: and then the linebackers drop out. Now are playing almost
Speaker 1: like a zero zone, so to speak. Everyone's sitting at
Speaker 1: eight nine yards. They're playing in and out coverage, and
Speaker 1: those linebackers drop underneath and almost pick off the ball,
Speaker 1: tip it away. Lamar's thinking, I got an easy completion
Speaker 1: to a slot receiver, ball gets tipped away. When you
Speaker 1: as a defense do that, I as a quarterback and going,
Speaker 1: I got no clue, coach. Now, Offensively, the thing that
Speaker 1: I love the most that they did was they knew
Speaker 1: Baltimore was gonna do the same thing. They knew on
Speaker 1: third down Baltimore was gonna go here, we comes a
Speaker 1: man to man coverage, all our pressure, they kept their
Speaker 1: tight ending right next to Joe Burrow. They kept their
Speaker 1: tail back in right next to Joe Burrow. Seven guys
Speaker 1: in protection, and guess what we're gonna bank on Tee
Speaker 1: Higgins wining verse man to man, or We're gonna bank
Speaker 1: on Jamaar Chase on an en route winning versus man
Speaker 1: to man or a back shoulder. I thought their protection
Speaker 1: plans and then the way they attacked protection were brilliant. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and what happened there was going back to again, what
Speaker 1: does this win mean? Like? What does this mean? Because
Speaker 1: the Bengals have been here before, they win a game,
Speaker 1: but they don't know what. This was a statement game.
Speaker 1: Everyone said this was a shot heard around the division,
Speaker 1: and it really was because this is what that wind
Speaker 1: does in that moment, is it creates hope. And belief,
Speaker 1: And I'm not sure there's been a whole lot of
Speaker 1: hope and belief in systems and in processes and cultures
Speaker 1: in the past because they haven't been able to win
Speaker 1: a big, a big game like this and have a
Speaker 1: record quite honestly like this. So when when you look
Speaker 1: at this, you know, it just I started thinking about
Speaker 1: some of the teams that I was a part of,
Speaker 1: you know in Cleveland, when you know when we turn
Speaker 1: things around, like all these teams where we turn things
Speaker 1: around in the Cleveland Browns, the New York Jets, the Patriots,
Speaker 1: the Atlanta Falcons, where we did it pretty much in
Speaker 1: quick time. In Kansas City, we actually did it in
Speaker 1: quick time in the second year. We want a division,
Speaker 1: but we didn't follow through. Again, we couldn't sustain it organizationally.
Speaker 1: Now what they did was create this hope and belief
Speaker 1: that I've seen before. But now what they have to
Speaker 1: do is treat this as though, Okay, that was big,
Speaker 1: that was important. It's just another game. We beat up
Speaker 1: the bullies on the block in the division, but we
Speaker 1: got a bunch more football to win. Because you go
Speaker 1: into every season the goal is to win the division
Speaker 1: because then the division. You know, win division, you're in
Speaker 1: the tournament. Then the goal is where the Titans are
Speaker 1: at right now, where they have been able to win
Speaker 1: in the division. But now the last two weeks they've
Speaker 1: been able to win big ones within the conference. So
Speaker 1: now they know they're for real. So right now there's
Speaker 1: a mentality with the Bengals where they think, the players believe,
Speaker 1: the locker room believes that, coaches are starting to believe,
Speaker 1: the franchise is starting to believe. Now they have to
Speaker 1: continue to stack these things together. This cannot be an outlier.
Speaker 1: They cannot go back and fall back. They need to
Speaker 1: take this hope and belief and let it become confidence.
Speaker 1: Yeah as a Jet fan, by the way, like I'm
Speaker 1: what belief like it can't I mean, like you said,
Speaker 1: rebuilding a teape two years ago. Obviously, the Bengals had
Speaker 1: the number one pick in the draft. There has to
Speaker 1: be a belief that at some point that foundation will
Speaker 1: be laid and a bad or bad organization become a
Speaker 1: good one. A bad team can become a good team, hopefully,
Speaker 1: at least in my world, things can change quickly. But Scott,
Speaker 1: I'm not sure if you were aware that Dan and
Speaker 1: I were a part of history. On Saturday, we made history.
Speaker 1: I'm not sure if if nine over times later we
Speaker 1: actually called the Penn State Illinois game. And you know what, Look,
Speaker 1: this is a pro football show. We talk NFL, but look,
Speaker 1: taped's can apply to college football too. And I'm just
Speaker 1: wondering philosophically, as two guys who are as died in
Speaker 1: the wold football purists, as I have ever met that
Speaker 1: system of doing nothing but two point conversions at the
Speaker 1: end of a game to determine the outcome of a
Speaker 1: team season Like Penn States season was determined at home
Speaker 1: on Saturday. They're not now going to play for the
Speaker 1: National Championship. They are done and it was a two
Speaker 1: point conversion contest that ended their season. Do you have
Speaker 1: a problem with that or do you understand that kind
Speaker 1: of player safety argument that the nc double A made
Speaker 1: when they made this rule switch. I'll say this, Um,
Speaker 1: I don't like it, and I also don't have a solution,
Speaker 1: so I need to keep my amount pretty much shut. No.
Speaker 1: I mean, but that's the truth, because we've tried so
Speaker 1: many different ways in college football and pro football, and
Speaker 1: how are we going to do over time? This is
Speaker 1: like one of the longest ongoing conversations. I sat in
Speaker 1: all of those meetings the league office, you know, in
Speaker 1: the annual league meetings, when when coaches and in front
Speaker 1: office people and really smart football historians discussed, you know,
Speaker 1: what's the best way to end this game, because you
Speaker 1: want to try to find a way that really mimics
Speaker 1: the game, the best right to some teams that have
Speaker 1: better and are built for short yardage goal line situations,
Speaker 1: either offensively or defensively. Some teams play better in the
Speaker 1: middle of the field or the length of the field.
Speaker 1: You know, you get in this spot. Some offenses can't
Speaker 1: operate as well as they operate, you know, when there's
Speaker 1: more field space to work with, in greater depth of
Speaker 1: the field to work with. It mitigates their speed. And
Speaker 1: some teams are built for speed and not necessarily size,
Speaker 1: so it really changes the game. But again, as much
Speaker 1: as I don't like it, I still haven't found a
Speaker 1: better solution, so I can't criticize it, right, Dan, I
Speaker 1: don't know if you were having this thought. I didn't
Speaker 1: even express this to you in the booth before after
Speaker 1: during even when we were off the air, that the
Speaker 1: cartoon bubble coming out of my head while I'm calling
Speaker 1: this is this is thrilling, Like there are a lot
Speaker 1: of people turning this game on right now that couldn't
Speaker 1: believe what they were watching. I'm having a lot of
Speaker 1: fun calling it dot dot dot, but also this is
Speaker 1: weird and football games shouldn't end this way, right, And
Speaker 1: like both things can be true. I can be calling
Speaker 1: something that's thrilling for everybody that's watching, and at the
Speaker 1: same time that's not the football game should be determined.
Speaker 1: I don't know if you have the same thought, but
Speaker 1: that was what I was thinking. No, I share the
Speaker 1: same sentiments, because you're sitting there going, wait, these kids
Speaker 1: just played their absolute guts out, and now what's gonna
Speaker 1: come down to? Three yards? You know? And and one
Speaker 1: over and over again, Yeah, over and over and over again.
Speaker 1: And I think Scott's point of, hey, some teams can
Speaker 1: excel in this area and maybe it's not a strength
Speaker 1: of another team kind of becomes exposed, so to speak.
Speaker 1: You know. The thing that I kind of referenced it
Speaker 1: during the broadcast, but I wanted to make sure that
Speaker 1: everybody understood is, first of all, it's really hard to
Speaker 1: have a play that has to get four yards but
Speaker 1: can't get thirteen exactly. You know, like that's a very
Speaker 1: difficult challenge for a play caller and play designers. I
Speaker 1: gotta get four, but I can't get their team. And again,
Speaker 1: you go into games with game plans, right, you have
Speaker 1: your your your game plan sheet of plays that we
Speaker 1: have practiced, repped, our kids know or whether it's in
Speaker 1: the NFL our kids know that we're gonna call these
Speaker 1: things when you get to the end of the game.
Speaker 1: And then you get into that situation and you get
Speaker 1: four or five, six plays deep, so to speak. In
Speaker 1: that situation, there's only so many plays that you have
Speaker 1: that are actual options to call, because again, I can't
Speaker 1: call a third and ten plus play. You know, I
Speaker 1: can't go into my third and ten plus game plan
Speaker 1: and go, well, this one can work, because what happened.
Speaker 1: I don't have the space. And so I think that
Speaker 1: is the challenge when you get into that world, and
Speaker 1: and maybe it's a learning opportunity for coaches is you
Speaker 1: always have to have this relatively large bank of plays
Speaker 1: that that are scripted or built or fundamentally designed to go, Okay,
Speaker 1: we can get four. The goal is to get four,
Speaker 1: but we can't get thirteen. And here's the other thing
Speaker 1: is and Dan, you know this, and I coached in
Speaker 1: college football because back when the two point play actually
Speaker 1: existed in college but didn't exist in in the In
Speaker 1: pro football, every team, every week pro college, they have
Speaker 1: a short yardage goal line package, set of plays right
Speaker 1: every situation with a third and long, third, medium, Everything
Speaker 1: is on that giant play sheet that there. And in
Speaker 1: college you also have to remember there's a restriction on
Speaker 1: the number of hours that you can practice, and you
Speaker 1: have to determine in college and how much time you
Speaker 1: can spend and what is the most important thing for
Speaker 1: that week. There's only so much time to work on
Speaker 1: on certain things. And the short yardage goal line or
Speaker 1: two point package again, you understand that the game may
Speaker 1: come down to it. There's only so much work you
Speaker 1: can do on it. And the other thing is this,
Speaker 1: teams don't build themselves around purely short yardage goal line situations.
Speaker 1: You don't and you can't. It's a fascinating schematic discussion
Speaker 1: as well. Like you guys said, when you get into
Speaker 1: that very specific spot. Um, something also that apparently was
Speaker 1: fascinating was at least for a brief period of time,
Speaker 1: I turned into a pinata on Boston Sports Radio. And
Speaker 1: that was a period of time on that one. But
Speaker 1: that's a good point, and maybe we can talk about
Speaker 1: that and we come back, because it actually does lead,
Speaker 1: I think to a really interesting schematic discussion about how
Speaker 1: the Patriots are executing their offense when they are at
Speaker 1: their best and why what looks so simple is obviously
Speaker 1: so difficult to stop. We're gonna talk about that with
Speaker 1: Dani Lovsky man Scott Pioli on Bobo Shoes coming back
Speaker 1: on te pits Back with Dani Lovsky and Scott Pioli.
Speaker 1: I'm Bobo Shusan, I'm the play by play guy for
Speaker 1: the New York Jets. Said. Apparently that didn't ring too
Speaker 1: well with the Patriot fans this past week, at least
Speaker 1: for a brief period of time on sports radio. Uh,
Speaker 1: let's talk about that, and guys, really it was what
Speaker 1: I said during the game when the Patriots are going
Speaker 1: up and down the field against the Jets. I kept
Speaker 1: referring to Mac Jones as a dink and dunk quarterback, which,
Speaker 1: by the way, he is, and that that is their offense,
Speaker 1: right he doesn't throw the ball down the field. But
Speaker 1: when I was saying what I was saying about Mac Jones,
Speaker 1: it was in no way meant to be looked at
Speaker 1: through the lens of someone knocking Mac Jones. I mean,
Speaker 1: as good a quarterback as the Jets have had over
Speaker 1: the last twenty years that I've been calling the games.
Speaker 1: When he had it going, might have been Chad Pennington,
Speaker 1: and he was a dink and dunk quarterback, and that
Speaker 1: was the way, and their offense was terrific. Um. Having
Speaker 1: said that, though, what to me was amazing about that
Speaker 1: game this past week was that the Patriots, their entire
Speaker 1: offense is basically run for the most part, within six
Speaker 1: or seven yards of the line of scrimmage. And yet
Speaker 1: they were on pace to put up six hundred yards
Speaker 1: of offense against the Jets in that game. And on
Speaker 1: top of that, they scored more points in that game
Speaker 1: against the Jets than the Jets have given up to
Speaker 1: anyone since seventy nine. So when I kept saying, Matt
Speaker 1: Jones keeps throwing the ball four or five yards with
Speaker 1: the line of scrimmage, Matt Jones said, thinking dune quarterback,
Speaker 1: Matt Jones runs this offense in a phone booth. None
Speaker 1: of that was meant to be disparaging towards Mac Jones
Speaker 1: the lens I was looking at it through, obviously as
Speaker 1: the Jet play by play guy to a Jet audience.
Speaker 1: Is how does a defense know that this offense is
Speaker 1: going to basically run most of, if not all, of
Speaker 1: what they do within seven yards of the line of scrimmage,
Speaker 1: and yet you can't stop it? I think I said,
Speaker 1: at one point, Matt Jones has thrown five yard passes
Speaker 1: to guys or screens to guys who are open, over
Speaker 1: and over and over and over again. Scott, I know
Speaker 1: you said you went through this with Tom Brady, But
Speaker 1: at the same time, when Tom Brady got Randy Moss,
Speaker 1: when Tom Brady got grunk, the ball went down the field.
Speaker 1: And that's when those big pinball machine offensive numbers started
Speaker 1: to get put up by the Patriot offense. You shouldn't
Speaker 1: be giving up six hundred yards of offense to a
Speaker 1: team that plays within seven yards of the line of scrimmage.
Speaker 1: That it was much more the focus on the Jet
Speaker 1: defense than it was anything disparaging about Mac Jones. Your
Speaker 1: your guys thoughts on why does Patriot offense when they
Speaker 1: get it going, As simple as it looks is so effective.
Speaker 1: I want to go back to the part that you were.
Speaker 1: You were unfairly in my opinion criticized on Bob is
Speaker 1: it's semantics and it's word choice because quarterbacks and people
Speaker 1: who love big quarterbacks love to see the quarterback throw
Speaker 1: big throws, deep throws. We love the deep ball, right,
Speaker 1: just like we love the long ball. And it's the
Speaker 1: word choice. It's It's just like when a quarterback is
Speaker 1: called a game manager, it's received as being a defensive
Speaker 1: The words dank and dunk don't sound sexy. It makes
Speaker 1: the quarterback sound like he can't do anything else. And
Speaker 1: I watched Brady go through this early in his career,
Speaker 1: and people said, he can't throw the long ball, he
Speaker 1: can't throw the deep ball. All he does is this
Speaker 1: underneath check down dank dunk stuff. And that is just
Speaker 1: the way that that sounds and is received, is that
Speaker 1: it's not meant. People don't understand your intent. They don't
Speaker 1: understand the intent of the words. But I go back
Speaker 1: to the history and part of what I learned about
Speaker 1: the short underneath sideways throwing, and often early with Brady,
Speaker 1: I heard Charlie White first referred to it as the
Speaker 1: extended running game where you put the player who does
Speaker 1: the best thing with the ball in his hands out
Speaker 1: in space where he can get the ball in his hands,
Speaker 1: look down field and see people and start making people miss,
Speaker 1: which is sometimes the the running back, sometimes the tight end,
Speaker 1: sometimes a short, shallow crosser. And that was the That
Speaker 1: was part of the belief in it. Now. The other
Speaker 1: thing was from that watching Charlie do that. Charlie learned
Speaker 1: that from Ron Airheart and Dan Henning and I go
Speaker 1: back to listening to Parcels early on when we got
Speaker 1: to the Jets, and Parcels was giving me a little
Speaker 1: bit of a schooling on why they wanted to make
Speaker 1: high percentage throws, short throws, sideways throws because they were
Speaker 1: high percentage completions. Putting the ball in the hands of
Speaker 1: the playmakers. Right, everyone hears playmakers and they think it's
Speaker 1: guys who are gonna be twenty yards downfield. The other
Speaker 1: thing it does is it develops confidence in the quarterback.
Speaker 1: And it's what Bill and ron Airhord did at the
Speaker 1: Giants early in Phil Simms career. And this whole idea
Speaker 1: of the dank and dunk is really just short passes
Speaker 1: extended running game, being smart, high percentage throws and putting
Speaker 1: the ball in the hands of playmakers. But you know, Bob, again,
Speaker 1: it bums me out that you went through that, and I'm, y'all,
Speaker 1: poor Bob. I mean, it's it's like sometimes people have
Speaker 1: to listen to the words and understand the meaning behind it,
Speaker 1: and it's never meant to be. And if you took
Speaker 1: the clip of me on the game saying Mac Jones
Speaker 1: is a DNC and dunk quarterback, it sounds disparaging. If
Speaker 1: you play the whole clip or what I probably followed
Speaker 1: that up with, it was much more damned through the
Speaker 1: lens of why can't the Jets stop it? Why do
Speaker 1: they not get more in a phone booth with their defense?
Speaker 1: Why are these easy access throws available over and over
Speaker 1: and over again. Yeah, I think first of all, the
Speaker 1: myth that the Patriots don't push the ball downfield? Is
Speaker 1: that a myth? I mean, if you go back to
Speaker 1: this game, they threw five go routes. Now they threw
Speaker 1: five go routes, So fundamentally I'm not hitting all of those.
Speaker 1: I hit two of them as a quarterback. But what
Speaker 1: I'm also doing the number one thing a defensive back
Speaker 1: does not want to happen is have the ball go
Speaker 1: over their head. That is the number one fear of
Speaker 1: every cat. So when I go in through a process
Speaker 1: of a game and I do take that three step
Speaker 1: fade or that go route, I'm at least telling you
Speaker 1: I'm willing to do this. If you present the opportunity
Speaker 1: for me to throw the ball down the field, I'm
Speaker 1: gonna take my chance and give my guy an opportunity.
Speaker 1: So that's number one that the Patriots are when the
Speaker 1: situations present themselves, pushing the ball downfield. Okay, number two
Speaker 1: when it comes to the dink and dunk game manager
Speaker 1: number one. Every quarterback is a game manager. Every quarterback
Speaker 1: is a play operator. I get a play call in
Speaker 1: my helmet when I get to the line of scrimmage.
Speaker 1: What I do with the football is directly correlated to
Speaker 1: what the defense allows me to do with the football.
Speaker 1: I can't go on a five minute rant to start
Speaker 1: this pod about Patrick Mahomes not taking check downs and
Speaker 1: kill him for that or not. Could criticize him for that,
Speaker 1: but then sit there and go vice. First of all,
Speaker 1: Mac Jones, you gotta try to push the ball downfield.
Speaker 1: If the defense is telling you to do X with
Speaker 1: the football. That's the only play that's the right play,
Speaker 1: because it's the only play. Sean McVeigh used to say that.
Speaker 1: Now when you are gonna see defenses that are gonna
Speaker 1: play a lot of zone coverage. Steve Young, Greg Knapp,
Speaker 1: God rest his soul, the one time great NFL quarterback coach,
Speaker 1: spent time with Steve Young, and I remember him sharing
Speaker 1: a story with me that Steve would talk to him
Speaker 1: about playing zone a quarterback against zone defenses, and Steve
Speaker 1: would always say, someone is open. When you play zone
Speaker 1: deep coverage for a quarter, someone is open. It's my
Speaker 1: job to find the open guy. And I think that's
Speaker 1: what the Patriots predicate their offense on. We got a
Speaker 1: guy that's gonna find an open person, so he operates
Speaker 1: the play. It's not a game manager, it's a play operator.
Speaker 1: I think the second philosophy for them is we are
Speaker 1: going to make the defense for four quarters tackle well,
Speaker 1: We're gonna make them tackle well, you know, like yeah,
Speaker 1: it makes you tackle for four quarters because if I
Speaker 1: gotta if I get the ball and and if you
Speaker 1: think about it, if I get the ball to Damien
Speaker 1: Harris and and in space and he makes one guy miss, well,
Speaker 1: that four yard completion goes to fifteen. Well, let's you know,
Speaker 1: that's the field or whatever percent of the field. If
Speaker 1: I get the ball to John who Smith on a
Speaker 1: screen and he makes two guys miss, well, that's thirty
Speaker 1: you know. And so it's this philosophy of let's make
Speaker 1: the defense over four quarters tackle really really well. And
Speaker 1: I think the last point I'll make Bob about this is, listen,
Speaker 1: every defense has rules. Every defense has rules. They have
Speaker 1: rules given to what the field is and what the
Speaker 1: formation is. My job as a play caller is to
Speaker 1: attack those rules and to attack the people within the
Speaker 1: rules of that defense. And I don't care if I
Speaker 1: do it over four plays and covers eight yards or
Speaker 1: if I do it over ten plays and it covers
Speaker 1: eight yards. I gotta attack rules. And when I do
Speaker 1: that efficiently and consistently, it might look like I'm dinking
Speaker 1: and dunking, I'm still attacking. Yeah, why would you do
Speaker 1: anything different if it keeps on working? Agree with you?
Speaker 1: And that was really it was more exasperation for the
Speaker 1: jet defense giving up six hundred yards to a quarterback
Speaker 1: that never throws the ball more than five yards of
Speaker 1: the air. Yeah. That's what they need to understand though,
Speaker 1: is if the rules of the defense are telling me
Speaker 1: as a linebacker. My rule tells me I have the
Speaker 1: hook to curl area, which is you know, basically from
Speaker 1: the offensive guard to the slot wide receiver. If my
Speaker 1: rule tells me that I dropped to twelve yards and
Speaker 1: I sit until the ball is thrown underneath, well that
Speaker 1: that's my rule. Because if I break that rule and
Speaker 1: I come up, the ball is going over my head.
Speaker 1: Well my rule is this. This podcast is almost over,
Speaker 1: so really quick, I'm gonna get a thought from you
Speaker 1: guys on the Thursday night game because we have the
Speaker 1: Packers and the Cardinals coming up. It might be the
Speaker 1: Thursday and I might be the game of the year,
Speaker 1: certainly the Thursday night game of the year. Give me
Speaker 1: a minute thought from each of you guys on what's
Speaker 1: coming up on Thursday. Yeah. I think the Packers defense
Speaker 1: is got their hands full. If you watch the Washington game,
Speaker 1: a more explosive pass offense strows for four hundred yards
Speaker 1: against them. Um, I think there's just chunks gonna be
Speaker 1: in the past game. Kyler is playing at such a
Speaker 1: high level. Um, he's stretching the field horizontically. He's stretching
Speaker 1: the field vertically. They're they're at you run game is
Speaker 1: you have to respect it. And I think that the
Speaker 1: Packers secondary um and linebackers are gonna be tested in
Speaker 1: their run game. And then also we'll see if DeVante plays.
Speaker 1: That's a big part of this conversation. If DeVante does
Speaker 1: not play, Robert Tunyan and Alan Lazard have to have
Speaker 1: big games. The number one thing for the Packers offense,
Speaker 1: Aaron has got to be fantastic with his eyes post snap,
Speaker 1: seeing their coverage, disguise and change. I agree right now,
Speaker 1: Arizona's confidence is so high for all the reasons that
Speaker 1: you mentioned, and it's not a false confidence because they've
Speaker 1: developed this confidence slowly because they've gone through it and
Speaker 1: they're just playing in a different level right now. And
Speaker 1: I'll say the other thing is right now the Packers.
Speaker 1: The Packers with the COVID situation and some of the
Speaker 1: other stuff they have going on right now, I think
Speaker 1: they're in a situation right now that there's so much unknown.
Speaker 1: I mean, we're sitting here, it's it's Tuesday, and and
Speaker 1: we don't know, not only with the with Davante Adams,
Speaker 1: but with their coaching staff and how serious some of
Speaker 1: this stuff is going to be and how many people
Speaker 1: are gonna be missing. It's one of the things again
Speaker 1: in this league that the injuries or injuries, but we've
Speaker 1: got this other thing out there, COVID that is keeping
Speaker 1: players away and keeping coaches away, and it may really
Speaker 1: impact this football team in terms of preparation and then
Speaker 1: the whole entire game day operation. Well, that's coming up
Speaker 1: on Thursday, and that is when the next episode of
Speaker 1: Tapeds is going to drop, because we're going to talk
Speaker 1: about the fact that Kyler Murray, Aaron Rodgers, several other
Speaker 1: quarterbacks are in an m v P conversation with a
Speaker 1: guy that might play until he's fifty and for seven
Speaker 1: hundred touchdown passes, the ongoing amazement we all have at
Speaker 1: the player that Tom Brady is and we just won't
Speaker 1: stop being That's gonna be something we will lead off
Speaker 1: our Thursday edition with join us then on te peds. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Tape Heeds is a production of i Heeartmedia and the NFL.
Speaker 1: You can download the tape Heeds podcast on the i
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