1 00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:07,680 Speaker 1: On this episode of news World. In his new book 2 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:12,559 Speaker 1: Saving Can Do, best selling author Philip K. Howard unlocks 3 00:00:12,600 --> 00:00:18,160 Speaker 1: the quandary of populist resentment and broken government. Nothing works 4 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:21,400 Speaker 1: as it should because red tape has strangled common sense. 5 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:26,600 Speaker 1: What's required is a multi year effort to replace these massive, 6 00:00:27,040 --> 00:00:31,600 Speaker 1: failed bureaucracies with simper codes that are activated by people 7 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:35,760 Speaker 1: using their judgment. Here to discuss his new book, I'm 8 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:38,519 Speaker 1: really pleased to welcome the guest Philip K. 9 00:00:38,600 --> 00:00:38,960 Speaker 2: Howard. 10 00:00:39,360 --> 00:00:41,800 Speaker 1: He is a leader of government and legal reform in America. 11 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:45,159 Speaker 1: He is share of common good and a best selling author. 12 00:00:45,520 --> 00:00:49,480 Speaker 1: He's advised both parties on meeting reforms, and I must say, 13 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:52,879 Speaker 1: every time I've talked with him, I've come off deeply 14 00:00:52,920 --> 00:01:09,720 Speaker 1: impressed with his wisdom and his common sense. Welcome and 15 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:11,160 Speaker 1: thank you for joining me the mutual. 16 00:01:12,319 --> 00:01:13,919 Speaker 2: It's an honor to be with you again. 17 00:01:14,319 --> 00:01:15,920 Speaker 1: Let me talk with your book, because you really go 18 00:01:15,959 --> 00:01:18,240 Speaker 1: to the heart of what I think is one of 19 00:01:18,319 --> 00:01:21,800 Speaker 1: the biggest challenges that we face. And you talk about 20 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:25,800 Speaker 1: the red tape problem really beginning in the nineteen sixties. 21 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:27,319 Speaker 1: Why did that happen? 22 00:01:28,440 --> 00:01:31,560 Speaker 2: We woke up to all these problems that needed fixing 23 00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:35,600 Speaker 2: racism and pollution and unsafe cars and such. And the 24 00:01:35,720 --> 00:01:40,080 Speaker 2: legal geniuses at the time not only thought we should 25 00:01:40,160 --> 00:01:42,960 Speaker 2: change our values, which we did with civil rights laws, 26 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:47,080 Speaker 2: for example, but they thought that we should turn governing 27 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:50,480 Speaker 2: into a kind of a software program where no one 28 00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:54,240 Speaker 2: could ever have bad values again. And so they got 29 00:01:54,240 --> 00:02:00,000 Speaker 2: the idea that law shouldn't set goals and principles and guide. 30 00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:03,240 Speaker 2: It should tell people how to make choices during the day. 31 00:02:04,360 --> 00:02:07,160 Speaker 2: And then if there was a decision that had to 32 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:09,800 Speaker 2: be made, like for example, whether to give a permit 33 00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:15,000 Speaker 2: or not, that should be decided by objective proof after 34 00:02:15,040 --> 00:02:19,000 Speaker 2: a neutral proceeding. And so now we have this ridiculous 35 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:22,800 Speaker 2: situation where we're getting a permit for a transmission line 36 00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:26,600 Speaker 2: can take a decade or longer. The most offensive part 37 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:29,760 Speaker 2: of this was that we change the idea of individual 38 00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:35,440 Speaker 2: rights from being rights against state authority, you know, like 39 00:02:35,480 --> 00:02:37,679 Speaker 2: the First Amendment. Government can't tell you what to say 40 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:42,000 Speaker 2: and such to rights by any individual to use state 41 00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:46,360 Speaker 2: authority to challenge decisions by other free people that they 42 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:50,320 Speaker 2: don't like. You can't fire me that violates my rights, 43 00:02:50,440 --> 00:02:53,520 Speaker 2: or you can't help me accountable that violates my rights. Well, 44 00:02:53,560 --> 00:02:56,840 Speaker 2: wait a minute, what about my rights as their supervisor 45 00:02:57,000 --> 00:03:03,800 Speaker 2: or whatever. So we created this crazy system designed to 46 00:03:03,880 --> 00:03:09,520 Speaker 2: preempt human judgment, and we've been building it for fifty years. 47 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:14,799 Speaker 1: And do you think that was a reaction to a 48 00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:18,400 Speaker 1: sense that the kind of judgments that were being made 49 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:23,640 Speaker 1: by decentralized in local authorities and had been since seventeen 50 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:28,639 Speaker 1: eighty nine, and somehow those were inappropriate and therefore had 51 00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:30,440 Speaker 1: to be centrally defined. 52 00:03:31,919 --> 00:03:36,600 Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean it was basically an effort to avoid 53 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:42,600 Speaker 2: all authority by local officials, by federal officials, you know, 54 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:46,120 Speaker 2: by anyone. And you know, again, it would be sort 55 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:50,280 Speaker 2: of governing, would be automatic, just comply with the rules, 56 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:53,760 Speaker 2: just follow the process. And of course it doesn't work 57 00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:57,440 Speaker 2: that way. People end up gaining the process to get 58 00:03:57,560 --> 00:04:02,720 Speaker 2: their own way, and it's you gradually intruded into people's 59 00:04:02,800 --> 00:04:06,080 Speaker 2: daily lives. Have a whole thing with wokeness and dei 60 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:09,560 Speaker 2: with telling people how to talk to each other. Well, 61 00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:12,800 Speaker 2: that's not a free society. Freedom doesn't require me to 62 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:15,760 Speaker 2: be polite to someone. Freedom allows me to be rude, 63 00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:18,400 Speaker 2: and it allows you to judge me for being rude. 64 00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:21,000 Speaker 2: Americans feel suffocated by it, and they. 65 00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:24,640 Speaker 1: Are I think your book should frankly be a handbook 66 00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:28,719 Speaker 1: for every person in the Trump administration and every member 67 00:04:28,720 --> 00:04:31,640 Speaker 1: of Congress and the staff as they rethink this whole 68 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:36,400 Speaker 1: current government mess. You make the point that the Constitution 69 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:39,960 Speaker 1: is seventy five hundred words, and we currently have one 70 00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:43,880 Speaker 1: hundred and fifty million words in federal law and regulation. 71 00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:48,040 Speaker 1: One hundred and fifty million. That's almost incomprehensible. 72 00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:53,280 Speaker 2: Well, it is incomprehensible, and by the way, even artificial 73 00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:58,760 Speaker 2: intelligence can't fix it because those one hundred and fifty 74 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:02,719 Speaker 2: million words are internal inconsistent. It's not like some kind 75 00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:05,640 Speaker 2: of you know, elaborate cross for a puzzle. It's just 76 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:08,840 Speaker 2: a bunch of mandates stacked on top of each other. 77 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:13,520 Speaker 2: There's this whole thing called the abundance movement where liberals 78 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:18,159 Speaker 2: are trying to persuade the Democrats to want to build 79 00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:21,120 Speaker 2: more instead of just have a lot of process. And 80 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:25,240 Speaker 2: we can all generally agree with that, but those people 81 00:05:25,320 --> 00:05:29,640 Speaker 2: seem to think that you can build more if you 82 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:35,880 Speaker 2: just prune this regulatory jungle. And you can't prune it 83 00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:41,800 Speaker 2: because what's left over is mandatory. No, the way it's 84 00:05:41,839 --> 00:05:44,320 Speaker 2: written is you must do this and you must do that. 85 00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:48,040 Speaker 2: So you can cut out eight must dos and you're 86 00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:51,000 Speaker 2: still going to have eight hundred other must dos that 87 00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:53,880 Speaker 2: somebody can complain about. So you really have to go 88 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:57,520 Speaker 2: back to a framework that's more like the Constitution, where 89 00:05:57,520 --> 00:06:01,320 Speaker 2: they have principles like no unreasonable search and seizures, and 90 00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:04,880 Speaker 2: the courts interpret the principles. The system we built up 91 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:07,480 Speaker 2: has to be replaced. 92 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:09,280 Speaker 1: Us the example, which I want to get to in 93 00:06:09,279 --> 00:06:12,479 Speaker 1: a minute, of the eyes an hour interstate highway system. 94 00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:15,279 Speaker 1: And I have to say I recently went back because 95 00:06:15,279 --> 00:06:18,720 Speaker 1: I'm trying to think about doing things in space, big 96 00:06:18,760 --> 00:06:22,520 Speaker 1: infrastructure projects. So you can actually google and pull up 97 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:27,880 Speaker 1: the eighteen sixty two Pacific Railroad Act, and when you 98 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:31,280 Speaker 1: look at how simple and direct it is and how 99 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:34,560 Speaker 1: much it delegates decision making out of a government of 100 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:37,120 Speaker 1: the people who will actually build the railroad, it's an 101 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:41,040 Speaker 1: amazing variation on the way we currently do things. And 102 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:44,839 Speaker 1: I think what you describe with Eisenhower is very similar. 103 00:06:45,279 --> 00:06:48,000 Speaker 2: Let's just have a thought experiment for a second. What 104 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:52,120 Speaker 2: are the odds that you could get permission to build 105 00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:57,480 Speaker 2: a railroad line across the Rocky Mountains today? The odds 106 00:06:57,520 --> 00:07:02,960 Speaker 2: are zero. It has environmental impact well guess what. Every 107 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:07,640 Speaker 2: project has environmental impact. The point is whether the benefits 108 00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:11,400 Speaker 2: outweigh the environmental impact. But that's not how current law. 109 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:16,240 Speaker 2: So Eisenhower, for a number of reasons, including national defense, 110 00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:20,160 Speaker 2: thought we needed a more integrated highway system. So the 111 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:24,640 Speaker 2: Interstate Highway Act was passed in nineteen fifty six. It 112 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:30,840 Speaker 2: was twenty nine pages long. Within a decade, twenty one 113 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:33,760 Speaker 2: thousand miles of interstate highway been built. 114 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:37,600 Speaker 3: The last Transportation Act is about one thousand basis long, 115 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:42,760 Speaker 3: implemented by thousands of paces of regulations, and it would 116 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:46,160 Speaker 3: take more than a decade just to get permission to 117 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:48,200 Speaker 3: begin building part of a highway. 118 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:53,120 Speaker 1: Do you see this also in this effort to lengthen 119 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:55,520 Speaker 1: the New York Subway, which I think is about a 120 00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:58,720 Speaker 1: two point one mile project and which is currently estimated 121 00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:02,280 Speaker 1: will cost ten times as much as a would it 122 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:05,720 Speaker 1: was being done in Paris. All of that's just additional, 123 00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:07,080 Speaker 1: unnecessary cost. 124 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:10,320 Speaker 2: Right, And so the New York Times EZRA client that's 125 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:13,120 Speaker 2: one of the abundance guys, tells the story of a 126 00:08:13,200 --> 00:08:16,160 Speaker 2: public toilet built a couple of years ago to San Francisco. 127 00:08:16,640 --> 00:08:19,480 Speaker 2: The public toilet itself costs, you know, it's a installed 128 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:24,160 Speaker 2: toilet would cost about two hundred thousand dollars. It costs 129 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:28,240 Speaker 2: the city of San Francisco one point seven million dollars 130 00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:32,520 Speaker 2: to put it in because of all the legal costs 131 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:36,080 Speaker 2: and the process costs. I've been trying to explore why 132 00:08:36,400 --> 00:08:40,360 Speaker 2: quote affordable housing costs so much. So a small affordable 133 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:47,600 Speaker 2: housing apartment in Los Angeles costs, with subsidized interest in everything, 134 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:51,160 Speaker 2: three quarters of a million dollars. We're talking about a 135 00:08:51,160 --> 00:08:54,720 Speaker 2: one bedroom apartment three quarters a million US, so, so 136 00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:59,520 Speaker 2: how can that be? It's just standard stuff right market rate? 137 00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:03,719 Speaker 2: Are departments in Dallas cost one third that amount. And 138 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:09,000 Speaker 2: the reason is because there's so much red tape that 139 00:09:09,080 --> 00:09:13,320 Speaker 2: the lawyers costs of just complying and then complying again. 140 00:09:13,520 --> 00:09:16,720 Speaker 2: And then there are four or five sources of financing. 141 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:22,080 Speaker 2: They all require different lawyers to certify the same thing. 142 00:09:22,679 --> 00:09:27,640 Speaker 2: So you have this crazy system of governance in this 143 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:33,040 Speaker 2: country where we have multiple levels of approval and paper 144 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:35,560 Speaker 2: forms to fill out and Florence to check, and then 145 00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:38,440 Speaker 2: people to check the forums that are being checked. It 146 00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:42,520 Speaker 2: was killing our budgets. I mean healthcare. For example, thirty 147 00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:48,520 Speaker 2: percent of American health care costs is administration. That's a 148 00:09:48,559 --> 00:09:52,600 Speaker 2: trillion and a half dollars a year, ten thousand dollars 149 00:09:52,640 --> 00:09:57,760 Speaker 2: per American family, just in healthcare red tape. Now, couldn't 150 00:09:57,760 --> 00:10:00,880 Speaker 2: that money be better used somewhere else? 151 00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:19,240 Speaker 1: Let me focus in on one of the things you mentioned, 152 00:10:19,240 --> 00:10:23,199 Speaker 1: which is the whole environmental review thing. I know that 153 00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:27,360 Speaker 1: Lee Zelden at the Environmental text Agency has begun a 154 00:10:27,400 --> 00:10:33,120 Speaker 1: pretty dramatic deregulation process. But in your mind, how would 155 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:37,400 Speaker 1: you measure what is and is not appropriate in terms 156 00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:41,760 Speaker 1: of establishing a system of environmental review that actually had 157 00:10:41,760 --> 00:10:43,319 Speaker 1: a bias in favor of construction. 158 00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:47,280 Speaker 2: So I think reform needs to happen in two dimensions. 159 00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:52,720 Speaker 2: The first dimension, which liberals and conservatives fight about, is 160 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:57,040 Speaker 2: how much should be regulated. You know the scope of regulation, 161 00:10:57,640 --> 00:10:59,960 Speaker 2: how many inspectors there are, all that kind of stuff. 162 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:04,040 Speaker 2: You know what the standards are for clean water. The 163 00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:07,120 Speaker 2: second dimension, which no one is talking about, or almost 164 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:11,600 Speaker 2: no one except me, is how decisions get made. So 165 00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:14,360 Speaker 2: for infrastructure, which I've done a lot of work on 166 00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:19,479 Speaker 2: and testified for Congress on such for infrastructure that requires 167 00:11:19,679 --> 00:11:23,640 Speaker 2: giving an official, let's say, someone who reports to the 168 00:11:23,679 --> 00:11:29,280 Speaker 2: White House, the authority to make a judgment about what's 169 00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:33,760 Speaker 2: important to study with environmental review instead of having a 170 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:37,680 Speaker 2: three thousand or ten thousand page environmental review statement that 171 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:41,600 Speaker 2: takes five or ten years to do. Most projects probably 172 00:11:41,640 --> 00:11:44,880 Speaker 2: have three or four big impacts. They could be studied 173 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:48,400 Speaker 2: in a matter of months in an environmental review statement 174 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:52,760 Speaker 2: that's fifty or one hundred pages long. But that requires 175 00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:58,160 Speaker 2: an official to make that judgment. And so you need 176 00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:02,280 Speaker 2: to give officials the adjudgment to decide all these matters 177 00:12:02,760 --> 00:12:06,040 Speaker 2: involving trade offs, what's important and what's not. And then 178 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:08,319 Speaker 2: for the ultimate decision, the official has to have the 179 00:12:08,360 --> 00:12:11,680 Speaker 2: authority and again accountable to the White House or some 180 00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:15,200 Speaker 2: other official. Official has to have the authority to say, 181 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:20,320 Speaker 2: I believe that the trade off of building the transmission 182 00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:24,960 Speaker 2: line this way is worth the harm of building it 183 00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:30,120 Speaker 2: through a pristine forest. That's not a legal question, that's 184 00:12:30,160 --> 00:12:34,520 Speaker 2: a political question, and someone needs to have that authority. Today, 185 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:40,280 Speaker 2: no one has that authority. Remember in two thousand and nine, 186 00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:44,000 Speaker 2: when Obama came to office, he got a stimulus from 187 00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:47,960 Speaker 2: Congress and they were going to use it to rebuild infrastructure. 188 00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:51,559 Speaker 2: Right that was sold, We're going to stimulate the economy. 189 00:12:51,559 --> 00:12:56,560 Speaker 2: After this banking crisis by rebuilding infrastructure. Months later, Obama 190 00:12:56,600 --> 00:12:58,680 Speaker 2: stood up and said, well, I guess we can't do that, 191 00:12:58,760 --> 00:13:01,600 Speaker 2: because there's no such thing. Is a shovel ready project 192 00:13:02,559 --> 00:13:07,160 Speaker 2: A famous phrase, Well, what would you have done if 193 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:10,480 Speaker 2: you were President Newton Gangerish would have said, Hey, wait 194 00:13:10,559 --> 00:13:13,560 Speaker 2: a minute, that's crazy. We're trying to stimulate the economy. 195 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:17,760 Speaker 2: Everybody wants infrastructure. Here's at one page law that gives 196 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:21,760 Speaker 2: me the authority to give permits on these terms right away. 197 00:13:22,760 --> 00:13:26,960 Speaker 2: But President Obama thought that the legal system was like 198 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:29,720 Speaker 2: a state of nature, like a Himalayan range or something 199 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:34,040 Speaker 2: that you can't move, And so he's just accepted failure. 200 00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:37,360 Speaker 1: To sort of paraphrase your work, which I've also seen 201 00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:40,520 Speaker 1: in other books you've done, we have invented a system 202 00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:43,760 Speaker 1: that grew up in a series of silos, with none 203 00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:47,640 Speaker 1: of the silos really coordinated in such a way that 204 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:51,520 Speaker 1: we have now become muscle bound by the inability to 205 00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:56,280 Speaker 1: actually act and instead or caught up waiting endlessly for studies, 206 00:13:56,640 --> 00:14:01,079 Speaker 1: for approvals, and as a result, we are falling behind. 207 00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:05,640 Speaker 1: It is impossible in the current American system to build 208 00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:06,840 Speaker 1: the infrastructure we need. 209 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:13,600 Speaker 2: Right That's absolutely correct. And g and Ping and Putin 210 00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:18,400 Speaker 2: are just sitting over there laughing at the paralytic democracy 211 00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:21,160 Speaker 2: that we've created in the name of the rule of law. 212 00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:23,920 Speaker 2: It's actually the opposite of the rule of law. Law 213 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:27,760 Speaker 2: is supposed to empower human judgment, not preclude human judgment. 214 00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:32,000 Speaker 2: But we've created this crazy system. And so you know, 215 00:14:32,120 --> 00:14:35,800 Speaker 2: my goal this year, with your help, I hope, is 216 00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:41,720 Speaker 2: to build a new reform narrative that's based on re 217 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:47,280 Speaker 2: empowering human judgment at every level of responsibility in society. 218 00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:50,120 Speaker 2: Let the teachers run the classroom, Let the principles run 219 00:14:50,160 --> 00:14:53,280 Speaker 2: the school. Let the official decide whether we give a 220 00:14:53,280 --> 00:14:57,520 Speaker 2: permit and be accountable to the White House or some 221 00:14:57,640 --> 00:15:03,560 Speaker 2: politically you know accountable figure. This current system is failing 222 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:06,800 Speaker 2: because it's designed to fail. 223 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:09,680 Speaker 1: Is designed to successfully achieve stasis. 224 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:13,360 Speaker 2: Well that's another way to say, right. 225 00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:15,960 Speaker 1: As a result of which practical activity tells you know. 226 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:18,360 Speaker 1: One of the areas I'm current at writing is a 227 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:23,800 Speaker 1: paper calling for deregulation of NASA because in the sixty 228 00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:27,920 Speaker 1: years since John F. Kennedy proposed going to the Moon, NASA, 229 00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:30,880 Speaker 1: like all good bureaucracies, has built up these layers of 230 00:15:30,920 --> 00:15:35,160 Speaker 1: bureaucratic rules and regulations, which now makes it extraordinarily harder 231 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:39,000 Speaker 1: to innovate and to get into space And my theory 232 00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:41,560 Speaker 1: is that the administration should be able to go in 233 00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:45,560 Speaker 1: and just literally take apart most of the regulatory overhang 234 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:50,360 Speaker 1: and recognize that they all represent a bureaucratic effort at 235 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:55,280 Speaker 1: risk avoidance and at minimizing responsibility. And as a result, 236 00:15:55,720 --> 00:16:01,160 Speaker 1: places like SpaceX are making extraordinarily leaps, but they literally 237 00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:06,000 Speaker 1: are crippled by the complexity of the NASA regulatory structure. 238 00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:08,960 Speaker 1: It's a perfect example of the sort of thing you're 239 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:13,160 Speaker 1: talking about, exactly right. There's a book called re Entry 240 00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:17,200 Speaker 1: about SpaceX where the guy used to work for it 241 00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:21,320 Speaker 1: goes into the details about how decisions are made in 242 00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:25,720 Speaker 1: SpaceX to try different things compared to how the Lockheed 243 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:32,720 Speaker 1: Boeing procurement contract overseen by NASA works. We're talking about 244 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:38,400 Speaker 1: one hundred x less efficient for NASA. The lucky Boeing 245 00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:42,120 Speaker 1: bureaucracy takes the life of its own. Every time there's 246 00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:44,360 Speaker 1: a requirement, there's got to be a person to check 247 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:47,160 Speaker 1: the requirement, and then a person to check the person 248 00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:50,080 Speaker 1: who's checking the requirement, and pretty soon you have this 249 00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:57,080 Speaker 1: Amazonian jungle of red tape to open the door or whatever. 250 00:16:57,680 --> 00:17:01,680 Speaker 1: So truly, this system of governm it certainly needs a 251 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:02,520 Speaker 1: spring cleaning. 252 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:05,040 Speaker 2: And the way to do that is have is just 253 00:17:05,080 --> 00:17:08,480 Speaker 2: a bunch of commissions in every area, NASA everybody and 254 00:17:08,600 --> 00:17:12,560 Speaker 2: just say let's reboot this. But it also needs a 255 00:17:12,600 --> 00:17:17,320 Speaker 2: new operating philosophy. If people don't have the authority to 256 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:21,760 Speaker 2: cut through the BS, then the BS will just multiply. 257 00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:44,240 Speaker 1: So let me ask you about two different practical applications. One, 258 00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:48,119 Speaker 1: if you are the president, what would you do to 259 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:51,880 Speaker 1: transition the executive branch to a can do philosophy. 260 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:56,479 Speaker 2: I would take a variety of areas, let's say anything, 261 00:17:56,520 --> 00:17:59,560 Speaker 2: but you can take transmission lines or whatever. And I 262 00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:02,960 Speaker 2: would by executive order or try it, or maybe you 263 00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:05,800 Speaker 2: go to chiris. But the order or the law would say, 264 00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:12,440 Speaker 2: notwithstanding any other law to the contrary, the approval process 265 00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:17,240 Speaker 2: for transmission lines or whatever it is will be for 266 00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:21,359 Speaker 2: the next five years, will be this, and have a 267 00:18:21,640 --> 00:18:26,160 Speaker 2: five line approval process that locates the authority to make 268 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:29,680 Speaker 2: trade off jesdgements. It's like the Allies sailing around the 269 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:32,920 Speaker 2: Japanese in South Pacific and World War Two. The way 270 00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:35,040 Speaker 2: you can get around one hundred and fifty million words 271 00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:37,960 Speaker 2: of law is simply to ignore it. All. You say, 272 00:18:37,960 --> 00:18:40,199 Speaker 2: notwithstanding any other law of the contrary. You do it 273 00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:43,199 Speaker 2: this way, and I would do that in one area 274 00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:48,159 Speaker 2: after another, and without room for reasonable doubt, every area 275 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:49,080 Speaker 2: would work better. 276 00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:53,520 Speaker 1: Is there sort of a checklist or a training program 277 00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:54,880 Speaker 1: for these new commissions? 278 00:18:56,400 --> 00:19:01,439 Speaker 2: Yeah? Absolutely. The checklist would be re state everything is 279 00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:07,440 Speaker 2: needed and discard the rest as a recommendation. Create decision 280 00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:11,640 Speaker 2: making structures with authority to make trade off judgments, including 281 00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:15,080 Speaker 2: about the need for expedited decisions and all of that, 282 00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:18,520 Speaker 2: so that you never get bound up in the paralytic 283 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:22,960 Speaker 2: sort of bolics of somebody claiming you didn't comply with 284 00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:25,880 Speaker 2: this or that, because you have authority to make trade 285 00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:28,720 Speaker 2: off judgments between this and that, and you do that 286 00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:34,520 Speaker 2: area by area. The biggest area financially is health care costs. 287 00:19:35,160 --> 00:19:38,560 Speaker 2: And I'm talking with people, I'm sure you know Mark McClellan, 288 00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:44,280 Speaker 2: former head of CMS, some healthcare economists at Stanford about 289 00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:49,080 Speaker 2: what a simplified regulatory framework would look like for health care. 290 00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:54,840 Speaker 2: So for most Americans, the growth of bureaucracy is a 291 00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:59,399 Speaker 2: migraine headache for people in health care. It's like the 292 00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:02,480 Speaker 2: denial of human existence. I mean, they spend half the 293 00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:06,320 Speaker 2: day filling out forms and a lot of these requirements, like, 294 00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:10,520 Speaker 2: for example, the idea of privacy laws in health care, Well, 295 00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:12,920 Speaker 2: privacy is a good idea, but the point of health 296 00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:15,080 Speaker 2: care is to take care of people, not to be private, 297 00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:20,560 Speaker 2: and so privacy should be a principle, not an obsessive 298 00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:24,920 Speaker 2: regulatory regime that costs one hundred billion dollars a year. 299 00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:28,760 Speaker 2: And it shouldn't authorize the Office of Civil Rights to 300 00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:35,280 Speaker 2: attack hospital systems like Johns Hopkins because of footfalls in 301 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:40,320 Speaker 2: the way they administer privacy regulations. Who cares. You need 302 00:20:40,359 --> 00:20:43,840 Speaker 2: to make judgments about what's really important in healthcare and 303 00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:46,960 Speaker 2: not waste all this money. Again, we're talking about hundreds 304 00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:51,240 Speaker 2: of billions of dollars in things that are marginal significance, 305 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:55,920 Speaker 2: and a special commission run by you and me could 306 00:20:55,920 --> 00:20:59,200 Speaker 2: do that on healthcare and it wouldn't take as very 307 00:20:59,200 --> 00:20:59,960 Speaker 2: many months to do it. 308 00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:04,600 Speaker 1: That's the sort of thing that Memodizes at the Center 309 00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:08,440 Speaker 1: for Medicare and Medicaid Services would actually resonate with. And 310 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:11,840 Speaker 1: then he's smart enough, he understands the problems and frankly, 311 00:21:12,359 --> 00:21:17,440 Speaker 1: we probably can save more money on the administrative side 312 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:20,520 Speaker 1: than on the medical care side, without. 313 00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:23,439 Speaker 2: Any question, and also just spring cleaning the kind of 314 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:27,920 Speaker 2: unnecessary regulatory oversight and such. I mean, you want doctors 315 00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:31,359 Speaker 2: and nurses to focus on the patient, not focus on 316 00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:34,719 Speaker 2: compliance with the law. I mean I would love to 317 00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:38,440 Speaker 2: work with coms and run a kind of an outside 318 00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:43,640 Speaker 2: committee that comes up with a simplified model of healthcare administration. 319 00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:49,080 Speaker 2: It would liberate so many hundreds of billions of dollars. 320 00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:52,800 Speaker 1: I have a passion for getting back to a balanced budget, 321 00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:56,800 Speaker 1: and you cannot even begin to think about it until 322 00:21:56,800 --> 00:21:59,720 Speaker 1: you confront healthcare. Because it's eighteen percent of the gross 323 00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:03,399 Speaker 1: to miss product and the largest single costs sector of 324 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:07,320 Speaker 1: the federal government. It just literally cannot solve our core 325 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:10,280 Speaker 1: problems until we get through a better model for healthcare. 326 00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:13,600 Speaker 1: And I think you're right, a major major problem is 327 00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:16,280 Speaker 1: the regulatory paperwork. But let me ask about one of 328 00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:20,880 Speaker 1: the part of this. Don't the trial lawyers and their 329 00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:24,240 Speaker 1: desire to use all these regulations. Don't they become among 330 00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:26,600 Speaker 1: your most ferocious opponents. 331 00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:29,359 Speaker 2: Yes, there are a lot of people invested in the 332 00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:33,919 Speaker 2: status quo, but the most pernicious of them are the 333 00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:37,280 Speaker 2: trial lawyers who like the idea of suing people and 334 00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:42,520 Speaker 2: collecting forty percent of it keeping you food self, especially 335 00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:47,360 Speaker 2: in healthcare and the public unions. So with the public 336 00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:51,240 Speaker 2: unions A raised some money. I wrote a book called 337 00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 2: not Accountable a few years ago arguing that public union 338 00:22:55,119 --> 00:23:00,640 Speaker 2: controls should be unconstitutional because they've removed the authority of mayors, 339 00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:05,560 Speaker 2: for example, to fulfill their constitutional responsibility. They come in, 340 00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:07,359 Speaker 2: they're supposed to be in charge of the school system, 341 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:09,679 Speaker 2: and they have no authority. That was the view of 342 00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:14,199 Speaker 2: Franklin Roosevelt, absolutely right. So we are most of the 343 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:19,399 Speaker 2: way through organizing a constitutional challenge, which we're hoping that 344 00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:24,200 Speaker 2: the Trump administration will bring against a couple of states 345 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:29,960 Speaker 2: to invalidate public union collective bargaining laws as an ut 346 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:34,720 Speaker 2: constitutional delegation of governing authority to a private group. So 347 00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:37,520 Speaker 2: that's the way we're going to deal with that. Trial 348 00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:41,280 Speaker 2: lawyers have a similar, I think constitutional problem. You know, 349 00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:44,040 Speaker 2: we've got a crazy system of justice where we let 350 00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:48,320 Speaker 2: anybodysoo for anything, and there's no law setting limits on 351 00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:50,679 Speaker 2: who can zee for what. Well, every other country has 352 00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:53,480 Speaker 2: law setting limits on who can see for what not America, 353 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:57,600 Speaker 2: So that has to be solved as well. When Obama 354 00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:01,320 Speaker 2: was president, not for profit Common Good had a joint 355 00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:04,280 Speaker 2: feesher with the Harvard School of Public Health to design 356 00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:07,880 Speaker 2: a system of expert health courts that you supported, I remember, 357 00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:11,840 Speaker 2: and we got everybody in healthcare, every legitimate interest to 358 00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:14,639 Speaker 2: sign on, the patient rights groups, everybody, because it was 359 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:17,280 Speaker 2: going to be better for health care quality and reduce 360 00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:21,800 Speaker 2: health care costs by a lot. We got President Obama 361 00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:24,879 Speaker 2: to agree to it. They had a provision and the 362 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:29,240 Speaker 2: Affordable Care Act to do pilot projects for expert health courts, 363 00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:34,000 Speaker 2: and the day before the vote, Harry Reid had the 364 00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:37,480 Speaker 2: provision taken out. At the bidding of the Travellers. 365 00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:42,320 Speaker 1: I think they are relatively invisible and amazingly powerful. 366 00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:44,560 Speaker 2: They give buckets of money. I mean some of these 367 00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:48,840 Speaker 2: guys are billionaires. There's just extortion. It's an extortion racket, 368 00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:49,320 Speaker 2: that's right the. 369 00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:51,800 Speaker 1: Way our current system structure. It has nothing to do 370 00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:55,240 Speaker 1: with justice and is essentially just a method of making 371 00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:57,480 Speaker 1: the money. It's really pretty staggering. 372 00:24:57,600 --> 00:24:59,440 Speaker 2: It's a kind of Queen for a day. Things that 373 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:01,240 Speaker 2: have a set of getting a washing machine and you 374 00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:05,000 Speaker 2: get twenty million dollars because of some human tragedy and 375 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:07,119 Speaker 2: the lawyer keeps half of it. 376 00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:10,080 Speaker 1: I want to thank you for joining me. I think 377 00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:13,639 Speaker 1: your new book Saving can Do How to Revive the 378 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:16,760 Speaker 1: Spirit of America is really important. I'm going to do 379 00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:19,120 Speaker 1: everything I can to get it known in the Congress 380 00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:23,119 Speaker 1: and the executive branch. It's available now on Amazon and 381 00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:25,880 Speaker 1: have bookstows everywhere, and I want to let our listeners 382 00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:28,240 Speaker 1: know they can find out more about the work you're 383 00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:32,840 Speaker 1: doing by visiting your website at Philip Khoward dot com. 384 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:35,440 Speaker 2: Or Common Good dot org or Common. 385 00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:38,640 Speaker 1: Good dot org. We'll make sure both are on our showpage. 386 00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:40,919 Speaker 2: Pray, I'll look forward to continue to working with you 387 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:45,199 Speaker 2: on this news. Outside leadership by American leading citizens is 388 00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:48,200 Speaker 2: what's going to make this happen. Politicians are too scared 389 00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:50,280 Speaker 2: to take the lead until there's a movement going. So 390 00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:54,240 Speaker 2: we need to start a movement to overhaul this system 391 00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:56,560 Speaker 2: to make it work again. 392 00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:01,600 Speaker 1: Thank you to my guest Philip K. 393 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:02,080 Speaker 2: Howard. 394 00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:04,080 Speaker 1: You can get a link to buy his new book, 395 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:07,760 Speaker 1: Saving Cando How to Revive the Spirit of America on 396 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:11,200 Speaker 1: our show page at newtsworld dot com. Newtworld is produced 397 00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:14,800 Speaker 1: by Ginglish three sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer is 398 00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:19,080 Speaker 1: Guernsey Sloan and our researchers Rachel Peterson. The artwork for 399 00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:22,760 Speaker 1: the show was created by Steve Penley Special thanks to 400 00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:25,200 Speaker 1: the team at Gingers three sixty. If you can enjoy 401 00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:27,919 Speaker 1: newts World, I hope you'll go to Apple Podcasts and 402 00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:30,240 Speaker 1: both rate us with five stars and give us a 403 00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:33,960 Speaker 1: review so others can learn what it's all about. Right now, 404 00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:36,720 Speaker 1: listeners of newts World can sign up for my three 405 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:41,119 Speaker 1: free weekly columns at gingerstree sixty dot com slash newsletter. 406 00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:44,040 Speaker 1: I'm new Gingrich. This is Newtsworld.