1
00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:03,000
Speaker 1: Oh hey, everybody, Episode ninety one, coming right at you.

2
00:00:03,080 --> 00:00:07,480
Speaker 1: Me and Phil Bozeman, Montana. It's coal snow, it's almost Christmas,

3
00:00:07,880 --> 00:00:09,520
Speaker 1: but we're still having a good time. We hope you

4
00:00:09,520 --> 00:00:12,559
Speaker 1: are too. This episode is full of stuff. Some of

5
00:00:12,560 --> 00:00:15,880
Speaker 1: it is good, some of it is negative. That is

6
00:00:15,960 --> 00:00:18,759
Speaker 1: because we're reviewing their reaction to episode eighty nine with

7
00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:22,360
Speaker 1: Caroline Finney, where we talked about hunting while black in America.

8
00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:25,959
Speaker 1: It's a that was a conversation that you should have

9
00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:30,400
Speaker 1: listened to. Will stop now if you haven't, then we're back. Well,

10
00:00:30,440 --> 00:00:32,800
Speaker 1: we're gonna read some of your reaction, the good and

11
00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:36,319
Speaker 1: the bad, because we are a fair trade podcast. Fair

12
00:00:36,360 --> 00:00:40,320
Speaker 1: trade doesn't close. That's close. We're gonna go with it

13
00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:42,760
Speaker 1: for fair Trade Podcast. We got to that. We got

14
00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:45,240
Speaker 1: a Nonza Sharp moment for you. We got some other

15
00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:48,440
Speaker 1: random things that we're going to clean up. Eric Hall

16
00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:52,320
Speaker 1: returns with the podcast, and I went to the Smithsonian

17
00:00:52,479 --> 00:00:56,040
Speaker 1: phil to look at some bones and stuff. I'm jealous, Yeah,

18
00:00:56,160 --> 00:00:58,840
Speaker 1: you are jealous. I learned everything there used to know

19
00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:02,760
Speaker 1: about Paley anthropology over a wonderful visit with Brianna Pobner

20
00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:05,280
Speaker 1: at the Pisonian. So that's the interview portion of the show.

21
00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:16,280
Speaker 1: All right, enjoy Episode ninety one. I guess I grew

22
00:01:16,360 --> 00:01:19,720
Speaker 1: up on an older road appared to the medals. I

23
00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:23,080
Speaker 1: always did what I told until I found out that

24
00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:26,200
Speaker 1: my brand new closed a game second hand from the

25
00:01:26,319 --> 00:01:29,520
Speaker 1: rich kids next door. And I grew up fast. I

26
00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:32,000
Speaker 1: guess I grew up. I mean, there are a thousand

27
00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:34,160
Speaker 1: things inside of my head I wish I ain't seen,

28
00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:37,959
Speaker 1: and now I just wanted to a real bad dream

29
00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:41,039
Speaker 1: or being like I'm coming apart of the scene. But

30
00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:47,160
Speaker 1: thank you Jack Daniel listening. Hey everybody, episode number ninety one.

31
00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:51,080
Speaker 1: What's up? And what's up Phil? Oh? Not much, just

32
00:01:51,080 --> 00:01:54,320
Speaker 1: getting into the Christmas spirit here the Meat Eater office.

33
00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:56,880
Speaker 1: I know we're uh, we just sang a little what

34
00:01:56,880 --> 00:02:00,280
Speaker 1: would you call that twelve days of what? Well, I

35
00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:02,800
Speaker 1: don't want to spoil it. Oh that's not sport, but

36
00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:05,280
Speaker 1: we can't give a little tease. We're planning a big

37
00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:10,160
Speaker 1: Meat Eater a holiday Christmas extravaganza podcast episodes, so we

38
00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:13,880
Speaker 1: were just recording a little something for that that people

39
00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:17,240
Speaker 1: will be hearing soon. Do you have any Christmas traditions?

40
00:02:17,440 --> 00:02:21,119
Speaker 1: So just the pretty standard I'm not I'm not really

41
00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:22,760
Speaker 1: into Christmas. I'm not gonna lie to you. I'm not

42
00:02:22,760 --> 00:02:25,720
Speaker 1: really into Christmas. Oh I love it. I felt I

43
00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:28,040
Speaker 1: always feel like it's just more work for everybody. It's

44
00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:30,480
Speaker 1: more work, it's more money. Thanksgiving you can just relax,

45
00:02:30,639 --> 00:02:32,480
Speaker 1: like all you do is eat and relax and watch

46
00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:35,000
Speaker 1: football and then go hunt. And I love the lights

47
00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:37,680
Speaker 1: that love the smells of the food of Christmas. You're

48
00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:41,520
Speaker 1: a real sap for it, aren't I'm a sucker. All right, Well, um,

49
00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:43,120
Speaker 1: we're gonna move through the year. Now we have to

50
00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:46,399
Speaker 1: make a special a THHD announcement. This is more kind

51
00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:49,919
Speaker 1: of blocking and tackling, a little clean up here. I

52
00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:51,960
Speaker 1: have I said, I think a couple episodes ago, or

53
00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:55,320
Speaker 1: maybe the last episode Phil, that I'm having a child. Yes,

54
00:02:55,440 --> 00:02:58,720
Speaker 1: you are just having it. I will be there. Um,

55
00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:00,600
Speaker 1: So we're you know, as you to let you guys

56
00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:03,080
Speaker 1: know what's coming in the future. We're gonna do some

57
00:03:03,200 --> 00:03:06,440
Speaker 1: best of podcasts in the month of January while I

58
00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:10,960
Speaker 1: rear my my new son, hopefully if all goes well. Yes,

59
00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:14,200
Speaker 1: so I'm gonna leave Phil with a lot of my

60
00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:18,359
Speaker 1: favorite moments from the last ninety some episodes of th HC.

61
00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:22,040
Speaker 1: Now you are very welcome to contribute to the Best of.

62
00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:25,000
Speaker 1: So if you have a favorite interview, a favorite moment

63
00:03:25,040 --> 00:03:27,480
Speaker 1: of the podcast, I can think of a few right now.

64
00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:30,320
Speaker 1: I can think of Wyman Men's are crashing a plane.

65
00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:32,959
Speaker 1: I can think of Barry Gilbert trying to leave the

66
00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:36,600
Speaker 1: podcast studio. Are gonna make again? Of course I will.

67
00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:40,200
Speaker 1: I can think of Cam Haynes loving The Bachelor, Steve Ronellan,

68
00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:41,600
Speaker 1: Game of Thrones. I can think of a lot of

69
00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:44,600
Speaker 1: moments that I want to include in the Best of

70
00:03:44,720 --> 00:03:48,400
Speaker 1: th HC coming up here in January. But we're gonna

71
00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:50,720
Speaker 1: need you to your input as well. Let's so send

72
00:03:50,720 --> 00:03:52,400
Speaker 1: it into th HC. It's the media dot com. If

73
00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:57,040
Speaker 1: you have something for the best of, and do your

74
00:03:57,040 --> 00:03:58,760
Speaker 1: favorite and the subject line just put the best of.

75
00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:00,680
Speaker 1: So I don't know, because there's a lot of emails

76
00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:02,400
Speaker 1: coming in, I want to make sure I catch as

77
00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:07,520
Speaker 1: many of them humanly possible, Right Phil, Yeah, I just

78
00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:10,840
Speaker 1: want I'm I'm moving when I'm transitioning now, I just say, right, Phil,

79
00:04:11,680 --> 00:04:15,320
Speaker 1: and then and I say now and we when we

80
00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:18,560
Speaker 1: move on. Now, we're gonna move on to some of

81
00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:22,640
Speaker 1: your emails. And we had listen, we did a controversial podcast.

82
00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:26,880
Speaker 1: Phil Uh, some people think so apparently, yeah, like four

83
00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:32,960
Speaker 1: of them. Well, it's a strong contingent of people. But

84
00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:36,560
Speaker 1: we did receive episode eighty nine, uh, that we did

85
00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:39,440
Speaker 1: with Carolyn Finney, and we knew we've said it in

86
00:04:39,480 --> 00:04:42,599
Speaker 1: the podcast. We knew that there would be some people

87
00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:46,839
Speaker 1: that were how you say, triggered by that, Philip. Turns

88
00:04:46,880 --> 00:04:49,560
Speaker 1: out there were a few, and and I imagine that

89
00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:52,760
Speaker 1: we should say we'll give voice to some of the

90
00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:56,560
Speaker 1: negativity here. But many of you wrote in with positive comments.

91
00:04:56,560 --> 00:05:00,920
Speaker 1: Many of you wrote in um auding us for kind

92
00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:05,039
Speaker 1: of expanding the conversation. And I would just like to

93
00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:08,599
Speaker 1: say that in my six months that I have been here,

94
00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:11,400
Speaker 1: it has been my favorite episode that you have done

95
00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:15,880
Speaker 1: so far. Damn. And that's Phil the engineer talking. Uh.

96
00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:19,600
Speaker 1: He's he's listened to a lot. The poor guy has

97
00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:22,640
Speaker 1: to listen to and edit and put sounds in all

98
00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:25,480
Speaker 1: these podcasts from the Meat Eater Crew. Uh, and so

99
00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:28,760
Speaker 1: he's listened to a lot. I I I thought listening

100
00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:30,480
Speaker 1: back to it. I wanted to listen back to it

101
00:05:30,839 --> 00:05:32,680
Speaker 1: because I knew I wasn't gonna get the whole thing

102
00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:35,280
Speaker 1: right even putting it out, I knew there was gonna

103
00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:38,039
Speaker 1: do some things about that I'd want to change. But

104
00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:42,599
Speaker 1: Caroline is is a super reasonable person and just wanted

105
00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:44,400
Speaker 1: to speak her mind, and all I wanted to do

106
00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:46,760
Speaker 1: is allow her to do that. UM. And so I

107
00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:49,920
Speaker 1: think we we achieved that, and we achieved, you know,

108
00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:51,840
Speaker 1: at least touching up some things that we can all

109
00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:55,560
Speaker 1: think about from the perspective of Caroline and people that

110
00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:58,479
Speaker 1: that think like Carolyn thinks. And so that's all that

111
00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:02,320
Speaker 1: conversation was really about. UM. So to highlight to first,

112
00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:04,080
Speaker 1: we'll highlight the positive, philm would you like to do

113
00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:05,920
Speaker 1: that first? Or negative? Which one would you like to do?

114
00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:08,600
Speaker 1: I don't know. That's a great question. I'm trying to think.

115
00:06:08,839 --> 00:06:11,239
Speaker 1: Should we get it out of the way the negative first?

116
00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:13,440
Speaker 1: I kind of want to I would like to hear positive.

117
00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:16,920
Speaker 1: Actually it's positive. So I want to say. His name's

118
00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:22,720
Speaker 1: Beano or beno b e n n oh. Garwood rode in.

119
00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:24,920
Speaker 1: We had a little bit of back and forth. He said,

120
00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:28,279
Speaker 1: Ben and Phil, I'm sure you're about to endure an

121
00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:31,080
Speaker 1: avalanche of bullshit. Given the subject matter of episode eighty nine,

122
00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:34,320
Speaker 1: given the polarizing nature of the subject of race, it

123
00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:36,800
Speaker 1: seems inevitable that people on both sides of the conversation

124
00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:39,520
Speaker 1: will find reason to make noises in your direction. In

125
00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:41,880
Speaker 1: my view, you are to be congratulated and thanked for

126
00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:45,120
Speaker 1: taking this on openness of mind, a desire to understand

127
00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:50,039
Speaker 1: the other. Quotation marks, self restraint, inclusiveness, tolerance. All of

128
00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:52,680
Speaker 1: these things are needed to sew up the ever growing

129
00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:56,720
Speaker 1: divide in our nation. But first and foremost, the indispensable

130
00:06:56,800 --> 00:07:01,000
Speaker 1: character trait needed is courage. Your willingness to take hard subjects,

131
00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:04,640
Speaker 1: even if it means courting controversy, is courageous and admirable.

132
00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:09,400
Speaker 1: This subject, and many others, are fraught with potential misunderstandings.

133
00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:12,680
Speaker 1: I understand those who shy away from them, but we

134
00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:14,720
Speaker 1: have to talk to each other, listen to each other,

135
00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:17,400
Speaker 1: and risk offense if we are to move forward, are

136
00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:21,720
Speaker 1: in any direction at all? Skipping a skipping ahead here.

137
00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:24,040
Speaker 1: It's a long email, But being a middle aged white male,

138
00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:27,480
Speaker 1: I'm often confronted with concepts and ideas I've held that

139
00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:30,640
Speaker 1: exists in something of a microcosm of my own experience.

140
00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:33,400
Speaker 1: As of late, I've often not had the courage to

141
00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:37,160
Speaker 1: engage in potentially sticky conversations for fear of betraying my

142
00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:41,360
Speaker 1: own ignorance and causing offense where none was intended. This

143
00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:43,080
Speaker 1: is somewhat a resolve of being in the midst of

144
00:07:43,080 --> 00:07:46,240
Speaker 1: a personal, political, and social shift, probably the consequence of

145
00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:48,400
Speaker 1: ching up one middle age. But at the end of

146
00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:51,280
Speaker 1: the day, it's been much about not having energy for

147
00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:54,600
Speaker 1: or interest in becoming engaged in debate with people with

148
00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:57,920
Speaker 1: whom I disagree. This is also evidence of a certain

149
00:07:58,000 --> 00:08:02,040
Speaker 1: level of miss and therapy inching into my mindset Episode

150
00:08:02,040 --> 00:08:04,600
Speaker 1: eight nine, confront of Me head on. In the best

151
00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:09,920
Speaker 1: of ways pretty well stated Benno couldn't have I'm ben

152
00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:12,640
Speaker 1: oh too. I guess a lot of ways he couldn't

153
00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:16,400
Speaker 1: have have put my thoughts codified or collected my thoughts

154
00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:21,000
Speaker 1: better in that email. I do really feel that these

155
00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:25,160
Speaker 1: things are important because they're difficult, and the fact I'm

156
00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:27,880
Speaker 1: not gonna pat myself on the back for having difficult conversations.

157
00:08:27,920 --> 00:08:30,320
Speaker 1: Why have a podcast, We're just gonna talk about things

158
00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:35,840
Speaker 1: that aren't um contentious or difficult. That's my feeling. But

159
00:08:36,160 --> 00:08:39,600
Speaker 1: I think we can all learn from learn from what

160
00:08:39,640 --> 00:08:41,880
Speaker 1: Benno was saying, and learn from what Caroline is saying,

161
00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:45,439
Speaker 1: and that we can expand not only horizons, but the

162
00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:47,360
Speaker 1: way we think, the way we moved through the world,

163
00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:51,079
Speaker 1: and how open we are too new ideas, not only

164
00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:54,439
Speaker 1: within hunting but in life. So that's just what I think,

165
00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:56,680
Speaker 1: and I'll continue to think that, and we'll continue to

166
00:08:56,679 --> 00:09:02,400
Speaker 1: reflect that on th h C and forward. Now there's

167
00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:06,400
Speaker 1: always another side, isn't there, Phil? Yeah? There is, which

168
00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:08,280
Speaker 1: is you know, some people would say that's a good thing.

169
00:09:08,720 --> 00:09:12,000
Speaker 1: I got this democracy and a long awaited return of

170
00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:20,640
Speaker 1: mm hmm. Phil is going to read a mean comment

171
00:09:21,320 --> 00:09:25,360
Speaker 1: in regards to the episode eight nine, Take It Away,

172
00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:33,079
Speaker 1: Phil One star title Hunting and Social Justice. My Lord

173
00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:37,920
Speaker 1: Ben seems to be on a mission to give voice

174
00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:41,520
Speaker 1: to just about anyone who hates hunting or the majority

175
00:09:41,559 --> 00:09:45,559
Speaker 1: of hunters. His latest podcast featured a woman who attacked

176
00:09:45,559 --> 00:09:51,679
Speaker 1: American history with absolutely no pushback from Little Ben be

177
00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:59,040
Speaker 1: average sized. Somehow You're Hunting Club isn't okay? Oh wait,

178
00:09:59,120 --> 00:10:02,599
Speaker 1: hold on, he's think this might be a type of

179
00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:06,120
Speaker 1: somehow how You're Hunting Club isn't okay if it happens

180
00:10:06,160 --> 00:10:08,720
Speaker 1: to be made up of white guys. Okay, I think

181
00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:10,720
Speaker 1: I know what he's trying to say. He's either too

182
00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:15,600
Speaker 1: weak to have these conversations or he's actually subversive. Either way,

183
00:10:15,640 --> 00:10:18,920
Speaker 1: he's not someone we should be paying attention to. Oh

184
00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:24,560
Speaker 1: my god, let's take a moment to reflect on whatever

185
00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:34,440
Speaker 1: that was, and we're back on some things considered. Um,

186
00:10:34,520 --> 00:10:36,640
Speaker 1: I would just like to say that if you actually

187
00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:40,760
Speaker 1: listen to the episode, there wasn't Caroline could not have

188
00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:47,920
Speaker 1: been more warm, friendly, excited to have a conversation with you.

189
00:10:48,559 --> 00:10:52,520
Speaker 1: There was no arguing. I don't think anything controversial was

190
00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:56,040
Speaker 1: actually said in the episode. What people consider controversial is

191
00:10:56,080 --> 00:10:59,520
Speaker 1: that we are talking. Is that, Yeah, you gave a

192
00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:02,600
Speaker 1: voice to someone who is just introducing ideas that maybe

193
00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:06,439
Speaker 1: the typical hunting audience hasn't explored before. Listen. I can

194
00:11:06,480 --> 00:11:10,440
Speaker 1: see it from the side of she's talking about history

195
00:11:10,480 --> 00:11:13,800
Speaker 1: as as if it as if it weighs more on

196
00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:16,760
Speaker 1: her present and her future than maybe I think about it.

197
00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:20,400
Speaker 1: But she made the point she made. She said what

198
00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:23,960
Speaker 1: she said. This is a studied and intellectual person who

199
00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:27,920
Speaker 1: has published and and has great opinions on something she's experienced. Personally,

200
00:11:27,960 --> 00:11:30,480
Speaker 1: I haven't experienced this ship. I don't know anything about

201
00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:32,600
Speaker 1: what it is to be a black female or have

202
00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:36,800
Speaker 1: black parents who grew up as caretakers of an a state.

203
00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:39,400
Speaker 1: I have no idea about that. And the Hunting Collective

204
00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:43,000
Speaker 1: is very much about learning about perspectives that allow us

205
00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:46,000
Speaker 1: to understand who we are and why we do the

206
00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:49,000
Speaker 1: things that we do. So, um, we're going to continue it.

207
00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:52,320
Speaker 1: His comment that I think he was referring to, he said,

208
00:11:52,559 --> 00:11:56,680
Speaker 1: I have featured a woman who attacked American history. Um,

209
00:11:56,720 --> 00:11:58,960
Speaker 1: just I'm he's probably referring to the fact that you

210
00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:03,520
Speaker 1: had a brief conversation about how John Yere and tr

211
00:12:03,679 --> 00:12:08,000
Speaker 1: had some racist, um you know, leanings in their writings,

212
00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:11,360
Speaker 1: which is just a fact. That's just a fact. Is

213
00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:14,800
Speaker 1: attacking American history. I'm not attacking American history, That's what

214
00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:18,000
Speaker 1: I'm saying. There used to be slaves in America. How

215
00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:22,079
Speaker 1: dare you attack Americans so many good things? Something someone

216
00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:24,080
Speaker 1: wrote to me and said, how can we pick out

217
00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:26,760
Speaker 1: things in history? How can we pick through history like

218
00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:33,240
Speaker 1: that as we have to? Yeah, I don't like slavery,

219
00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:37,920
Speaker 1: I like parades. I that you have to look at

220
00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:40,280
Speaker 1: it with a pragmatic eye. You cannot say all of

221
00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:42,840
Speaker 1: history is history. All of history informs who we are

222
00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:45,400
Speaker 1: right now and what we do, and even the ugly

223
00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:47,640
Speaker 1: stuff that we don't want to talk about stuff. Our

224
00:12:47,679 --> 00:12:52,199
Speaker 1: institution not attacking America by legislations. We took this land

225
00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:55,080
Speaker 1: from from people and killed them. That is a fact.

226
00:12:55,120 --> 00:13:00,120
Speaker 1: Another fact I can. I can both recognize that, not

227
00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:02,000
Speaker 1: be angered by it in one way or the other,

228
00:13:02,880 --> 00:13:04,440
Speaker 1: and try to let it inform the way I moved

229
00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:07,920
Speaker 1: through this world. And so the few I would say

230
00:13:07,920 --> 00:13:13,440
Speaker 1: it was positive percent positive, but orobviously the few people

231
00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:15,200
Speaker 1: that are upset, it's worth addressing that because that's going

232
00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:18,360
Speaker 1: to happen in these things because obviously, if you listen

233
00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:21,560
Speaker 1: to what Caroline saying, she said, I appreciate what John

234
00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:27,400
Speaker 1: Muir did for naturalism and environmentalism. I appreciate the work

235
00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:30,600
Speaker 1: that he did, but there's this thing we have to acknowledge,

236
00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:35,320
Speaker 1: which is some prejudices that he clearly helped. Yeah, and

237
00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:38,280
Speaker 1: it colors the way that she might view the outdoor

238
00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:42,079
Speaker 1: spaces in the present. Just like she's not ignoring all

239
00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:45,920
Speaker 1: the good he did, we can ignore the bad he did.

240
00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:48,480
Speaker 1: And so that's where we get to. We could probably

241
00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:50,840
Speaker 1: go on all day and preach about that, but I

242
00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:54,760
Speaker 1: will say thanks for listening, and for those who just

243
00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:57,640
Speaker 1: don't want to hear that. In a hunting podcast. I understand.

244
00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:00,000
Speaker 1: I get it. I've said this before on this podcast.

245
00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:03,160
Speaker 1: I get it that sometimes you don't want to be

246
00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:07,120
Speaker 1: presented with heavy stuff and that's why, Um we try

247
00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:09,840
Speaker 1: to make fun sometimes that while we're doing it. So

248
00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:13,040
Speaker 1: that's that's that. Moving on to something that we really

249
00:14:13,040 --> 00:14:17,320
Speaker 1: need to talk to Phil about. It's a big issue. Oh,

250
00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:20,280
Speaker 1: it's a big issue. Alias tore hiding. I don't even

251
00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:22,480
Speaker 1: know how to say his name because he's written in before.

252
00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:26,160
Speaker 1: He wrote an email and it's entitled Ranella is a

253
00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:29,080
Speaker 1: poaching s o B. And that got me. I was

254
00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:34,600
Speaker 1: like defending a whoa, what bring it? But he says

255
00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:38,160
Speaker 1: I couldn't help. But notice, sneaky Steve has been sliding

256
00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:41,760
Speaker 1: Phil into podcast more and more lately. Seems like he's

257
00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:44,800
Speaker 1: been trying to nab your prize show, Pony. I think

258
00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:46,880
Speaker 1: I think giving Phil his own statement to ensure his

259
00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:49,680
Speaker 1: loyalty was a cunning move on your part. Just make

260
00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:55,200
Speaker 1: sure Ronella doesn't let him design assure or something. And

261
00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:57,880
Speaker 1: he goes on but it's his cheers alies. Yeah, what

262
00:14:57,880 --> 00:15:00,840
Speaker 1: do you gotta say there? Phil? I think I think

263
00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:02,840
Speaker 1: Steve just he does he does the same thing that

264
00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:05,480
Speaker 1: you do where when he doesn't know how to transition,

265
00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:09,080
Speaker 1: he just he looks around the room and thinks, Okay,

266
00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:10,920
Speaker 1: who haven't we heard from? And he sees me sitting

267
00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:12,680
Speaker 1: across the table, and he goes, what do you think

268
00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:14,960
Speaker 1: about that? Phil? It's it's the same question every time,

269
00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:19,000
Speaker 1: blanket and Um every time, I'm like deer in the

270
00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:20,520
Speaker 1: headlights and I try to think of something to say.

271
00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:22,760
Speaker 1: But then you don't have to worry. Um, Steve has

272
00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:24,960
Speaker 1: never let me talk about Star Wars on his podcast.

273
00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:27,120
Speaker 1: Or That's why I did that, because I I knew

274
00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:29,800
Speaker 1: at some point it would come down to it where

275
00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:34,480
Speaker 1: you had to choose between me and that guy. And

276
00:15:34,680 --> 00:15:38,040
Speaker 1: uh no, I don't think. I don't think, Phil, there's

277
00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:43,360
Speaker 1: no poaching happening. Um, choose wisely. This train is headed

278
00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:45,960
Speaker 1: out of the station. You're either on it or you're

279
00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:49,640
Speaker 1: off it. Okay, got it. Make a decision right now.

280
00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:52,560
Speaker 1: I'm worried. I don't. I can't in the way my

281
00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:57,160
Speaker 1: pros and comes like a public declaration of your loyalty. Uh,

282
00:15:57,400 --> 00:16:01,120
Speaker 1: I forgot something that I want to play. Eric Hall,

283
00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:04,560
Speaker 1: our friend Eric Hall. Can I say that he's our

284
00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:08,600
Speaker 1: favorite listener? Yes, I'm saying it he's our favorite listener.

285
00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:10,640
Speaker 1: No offense to any of the other listeners out there,

286
00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:13,960
Speaker 1: but Eric Hall is our favorite and it's not even close.

287
00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:17,160
Speaker 1: I might invite him to come to my house for Christmas. Yeah,

288
00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:19,560
Speaker 1: I probably won't show up. Big shouts to Eric. Yeah

289
00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:22,520
Speaker 1: he or you're the best. Uh don't get a big

290
00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:25,000
Speaker 1: head about this, but we like you a lot. He

291
00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:29,560
Speaker 1: he did send multiple recordings in recently about some things.

292
00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:32,760
Speaker 1: But we're gonna play you know, Seas Gonna or Steve

293
00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:38,080
Speaker 1: oh boy, the Phil is gonna do a little compilation

294
00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:42,960
Speaker 1: of Eric's thoughts for you here being Eric here again

295
00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:47,680
Speaker 1: if you wonna get tired, mate, and both just finished

296
00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:51,680
Speaker 1: episode number eight nine. Dr Peenie. Thank you've both done

297
00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:56,120
Speaker 1: a good job. Good conversation. UH enjoyed it. Uh to

298
00:16:56,160 --> 00:16:58,520
Speaker 1: say I'm out of head if you though this past

299
00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:03,160
Speaker 1: year off the go for black guys, African American. Uh

300
00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:07,520
Speaker 1: talk to him by hunting shooting. We're going to uh

301
00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:10,320
Speaker 1: set up a time he's wanting to come up and

302
00:17:10,359 --> 00:17:14,440
Speaker 1: shoot one of many kind of different styles. Tyson runs

303
00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:17,400
Speaker 1: the shotguns I have, they're gonna hook cut up. Never

304
00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:19,760
Speaker 1: shot a gun before, so I think that'll be good

305
00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:23,600
Speaker 1: outing for him, good outing for me. Uh another guy

306
00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:26,520
Speaker 1: he's not interested in shooting or hunting, but as your

307
00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:30,080
Speaker 1: enjoys the there meat. So H think y'all done a

308
00:17:30,119 --> 00:17:33,400
Speaker 1: good job on the podcast to enjoy the conversation there.

309
00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:36,520
Speaker 1: And I think we definitely need to get to be

310
00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:40,639
Speaker 1: more inclusive in the hunting so far as African Americans hunting,

311
00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:46,280
Speaker 1: women hunting. Looking forward to number nine, Yeah, have good Thanksgiving,

312
00:17:47,359 --> 00:17:50,000
Speaker 1: yeah being I just have to say, is Eric Allgan

313
00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:54,280
Speaker 1: the juror feeling uncomfortable and in bottomore or parks the

314
00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:59,680
Speaker 1: bottomore she probably more founded than in reality than Dr

315
00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:05,560
Speaker 1: Any or Duncan. I'll not feeling comfortable on public land

316
00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:09,800
Speaker 1: because white guys are hunting you. You can run into

317
00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:13,119
Speaker 1: policeman in Baltimore, black whole, white and the ft, you

318
00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:16,320
Speaker 1: don't go. Don't go here, don't go any places. You're

319
00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:20,040
Speaker 1: probably not gonna run into a park ranger or uh

320
00:18:20,359 --> 00:18:25,359
Speaker 1: National Force ranger that's gonna tell black person it don't

321
00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:29,240
Speaker 1: go here because so and so happened. But those police

322
00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:31,920
Speaker 1: that will tell you don't go a certain place in

323
00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:36,000
Speaker 1: Baltimore lates and on your fact. That's just the way

324
00:18:36,040 --> 00:18:38,879
Speaker 1: I feel like that anyway, Eric kind of like to

325
00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:43,040
Speaker 1: say about Baltimore. About the podcast, I like it, I

326
00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:47,400
Speaker 1: like the guy. Um. I don't know that he's wrong

327
00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:49,640
Speaker 1: about the Baltimore point, but we'll leave that to where

328
00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:52,480
Speaker 1: it is and listen. We'll probably come back to this

329
00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:55,440
Speaker 1: race and hunting conversation again, so just be prepared for that.

330
00:18:56,480 --> 00:18:59,639
Speaker 1: Who knows where we will go, but we'll go somewhere

331
00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:03,520
Speaker 1: as we're moving along here. Phil Blake McGee wrote in.

332
00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:07,240
Speaker 1: He said, Ben, after listening to your podcasts, I pulled

333
00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:12,040
Speaker 1: our state hunting group in Oklahoma. He pulled them about

334
00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:14,760
Speaker 1: the young man we talked about in Tennessee who kills

335
00:19:15,119 --> 00:19:18,080
Speaker 1: a possible record buck put on YouTube. Was not wearing

336
00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:20,919
Speaker 1: orange obviously, he was hunting with a rifle. The kids awesome,

337
00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:25,040
Speaker 1: very respectful praises to God and the landowner. What should

338
00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:27,800
Speaker 1: the game warns do since the dealer was harvested illegally.

339
00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:30,240
Speaker 1: So he put that out to his Facebook group. I

340
00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:31,440
Speaker 1: don't know how many people are in it, but he

341
00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:33,040
Speaker 1: did get a lot of answers by it, looks of it.

342
00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:38,760
Speaker 1: He gave two options stiff warning, confiscate the kill, and

343
00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:41,960
Speaker 1: a hefty fine. That's what Blake McGee gave to his

344
00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:44,280
Speaker 1: Oklahoma Hunting and Fishing group. But there one looks like

345
00:19:44,359 --> 00:19:46,960
Speaker 1: on the facebooks. What do you think? What do you think?

346
00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:52,600
Speaker 1: One stiff warning or confiscate the kill. I'm gonna say

347
00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:56,560
Speaker 1: that stiff warning one. I guess it was a landslide

348
00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:03,440
Speaker 1: four ninety four to tw seven. If you voted, it

349
00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:05,920
Speaker 1: would have been a twenty eight, right, Yeah, I would have.

350
00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:10,040
Speaker 1: I would have voted. Boy again, if I had to vote,

351
00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:13,159
Speaker 1: just don't listen to me on this one. But if

352
00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:15,280
Speaker 1: I had to vote, I would vote for confiscate to kill.

353
00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:18,560
Speaker 1: See I are Originally, I think in the recording I

354
00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:20,480
Speaker 1: came out as saying, man, I think stiff warning is

355
00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:23,080
Speaker 1: probably fine, and then but the more. But then after

356
00:20:23,119 --> 00:20:25,080
Speaker 1: I heard you argue that, I think I came down. Yeah.

357
00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:27,840
Speaker 1: I think an example has to be made somewhere. I

358
00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:30,520
Speaker 1: think you draw the line when you're putting it on

359
00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:35,720
Speaker 1: the internet. I just think that if if a game

360
00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:38,040
Speaker 1: warn't I said this in the in the earlier podcast,

361
00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:41,360
Speaker 1: I think when if a game warden would have walked

362
00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:43,440
Speaker 1: up on the guy dragging the deer out with no

363
00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:45,640
Speaker 1: orange anywhere to be seen, you'd be like, hey, man,

364
00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:49,280
Speaker 1: where's your orange. I forgot it in the truck. Oh okay,

365
00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:51,400
Speaker 1: Well let's have a conversation about this. I don't want

366
00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:53,960
Speaker 1: to see this happen again. Go on about your day.

367
00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:58,399
Speaker 1: But when you edit it, make a conscious decision to

368
00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:01,040
Speaker 1: put that in the video. You breaking the law of

369
00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:03,320
Speaker 1: video if you bringing lamp and put it on the

370
00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:06,320
Speaker 1: internet knowing I'm sure that it's going to get a

371
00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:08,240
Speaker 1: lot of attention, and hoping that it does get a

372
00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:09,840
Speaker 1: lot of attention, because you don't put things on the

373
00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:13,639
Speaker 1: internet hoping no one sees them. And so I'm I'm

374
00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:15,520
Speaker 1: in the confiscate that he'll have to find still but

375
00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:21,360
Speaker 1: um Blake McGhee and his group stiff warning, which I'm

376
00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:24,919
Speaker 1: okay with two I'm very I don't want to get

377
00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:28,119
Speaker 1: in it for a minute. That's one of those send

378
00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:33,800
Speaker 1: your emails to me wishy washy bullshit things that people do.

379
00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:36,040
Speaker 1: Uh So we're gonna move on from that and we're

380
00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:38,680
Speaker 1: going to get to the work sharp not to sharp moment,

381
00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:43,440
Speaker 1: play the jingle film not so sharp moment, so you

382
00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:47,399
Speaker 1: don't have to, okay, Phil. This one is is from

383
00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:53,680
Speaker 1: Jared Michael Moon. Three easy names to pronounce. He's he's

384
00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:56,800
Speaker 1: a U s Army major. I believe given what he

385
00:21:56,880 --> 00:22:02,800
Speaker 1: says here, and he starts by saying classification unclassified. Here

386
00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:05,479
Speaker 1: we go. Not a short moment, he says, I'm an

387
00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:09,000
Speaker 1: adult onset hunter. As a child, I shot squirrels and rabbits,

388
00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:11,280
Speaker 1: but only picked up big game hunting three years ago

389
00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:15,520
Speaker 1: after moving to Michigan. Given Michigan's draconian rifle hunting laws,

390
00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:18,840
Speaker 1: I decided to start bow hunting. I balanced my lack

391
00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:21,680
Speaker 1: of available mentors by spending free every free moment on

392
00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:24,679
Speaker 1: state hunting land or at my local archer shop, shooting

393
00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:28,040
Speaker 1: hundreds of arrows a day. I can become obsessed with

394
00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:31,000
Speaker 1: new activities, which often include spending much more money than

395
00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:34,040
Speaker 1: I should, both of which can annoy my generally reasonable

396
00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:38,080
Speaker 1: and loving wife. I calmed her by waxing poetic about

397
00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:42,880
Speaker 1: providing family with meat in our newly purchased deep freezer. However,

398
00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:46,840
Speaker 1: much like most new unsupervised hunters, I spent the first

399
00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:51,400
Speaker 1: season cold tired, without any dear to bring home. Determined

400
00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:54,440
Speaker 1: as I was, I continued to seize every opportunity to

401
00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:57,119
Speaker 1: be in the woods. In the following year, I turkey

402
00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:03,680
Speaker 1: hunted unsuccessfully and unsuccessfully squirrel and rabbit hunted, coyote hunted unsuccessfully.

403
00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:05,760
Speaker 1: I went on two D I Y L hunting trips

404
00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:09,160
Speaker 1: to Oregon and Colorado, also unsuccessfully, and I scouted every

405
00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:12,960
Speaker 1: inch of public land around Ann Arbor, Michigan. In that

406
00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:15,560
Speaker 1: year of effort, I accomplished two things. I learned how

407
00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:18,520
Speaker 1: stupid I had been in my first deer season, and

408
00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:22,679
Speaker 1: I really he really put He put like twenty l's

409
00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:26,960
Speaker 1: in there, really piste off my wife being gone as

410
00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:29,720
Speaker 1: much as I was. I had something Phil you probably

411
00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:32,160
Speaker 1: don't know about yet. When you're I never leave home

412
00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:39,000
Speaker 1: when you're when when you're a hunter, it's a balance

413
00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:42,080
Speaker 1: between pissing off your wife and going hunting. So when

414
00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:44,760
Speaker 1: it came to my second deer season, I felt prepared

415
00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:47,320
Speaker 1: to finally arrow a deer and show my wife the

416
00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:51,480
Speaker 1: fruits of my efforts. Unfortunately, the season started very slow,

417
00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:53,480
Speaker 1: and to my and to my wife, it seemed like

418
00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:55,760
Speaker 1: more of the same. I knew, however, that I can

419
00:23:55,880 --> 00:24:00,399
Speaker 1: just make it happen, then I would be vindicated. Finally,

420
00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:02,800
Speaker 1: my moment came. I was sitting in a blind a

421
00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:05,680
Speaker 1: bit of state land in the freezing cold late archery season,

422
00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:09,200
Speaker 1: when a brown ghost began to cross my path the

423
00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:15,240
Speaker 1: twenty yards. I'm visualizing many things. I'm visualizing like low fog,

424
00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:18,040
Speaker 1: the brown ghost. It's maybe something like you hear some

425
00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:21,240
Speaker 1: some birds in the background. My son Offen has brown

426
00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:25,600
Speaker 1: ghosts and his diaper. The dough moved slowly, stopping every

427
00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:30,120
Speaker 1: few steps, presenting perfect broadside shot opportunities. I could taste

428
00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:33,720
Speaker 1: the meat already. Once the doe stopped in my preferred

429
00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:36,800
Speaker 1: shooting lane, up began my shot routine. Steady grip, tight

430
00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:40,639
Speaker 1: low front shoulder, slow draw to my anchor point, sticky

431
00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:43,160
Speaker 1: glove fingers steadying the arrow shaft. As I drew back

432
00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:49,680
Speaker 1: pop punk smack flock, so I wrote it. My finger

433
00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:53,520
Speaker 1: created so much friction that the shaft that my eighty

434
00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:57,360
Speaker 1: pound bow pop the knock off the arrow. In my surprise,

435
00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:01,959
Speaker 1: I triggered the release, firing thing but a knock at

436
00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:05,800
Speaker 1: a confused dough, and subsequently punched myself square in the

437
00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:09,440
Speaker 1: eye and cut my cheek on the freshly d knocked arrow.

438
00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:12,399
Speaker 1: I couldn't help but laugh at my stupidity, while the

439
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:16,320
Speaker 1: doe seemingly smiled at a moron. It would not be

440
00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:18,800
Speaker 1: the only time that I saw that look from a female.

441
00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:22,720
Speaker 1: That evening, my wife smirked at me as I walked

442
00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:24,600
Speaker 1: back in the door with nothing but a black eye

443
00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:26,840
Speaker 1: and a mountain of shame. She confronted me in the

444
00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:33,440
Speaker 1: traditional fashion by mocking me and telling her mother. We

445
00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:35,320
Speaker 1: now live in Kansas City, and needless to say, I

446
00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:37,639
Speaker 1: have changed my archery shot routine, which I'm happy to

447
00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:41,119
Speaker 1: report helped me to take down my first big game animal,

448
00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:45,000
Speaker 1: a barren ground caribou. But alas, my wife still likes

449
00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:47,480
Speaker 1: to tell our friends about my not so sharp moment

450
00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:50,520
Speaker 1: every time she jokingly complains about me spending too much

451
00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:56,000
Speaker 1: time in the woods. Happy hunting Jared, He'll play the

452
00:25:56,080 --> 00:26:02,680
Speaker 1: jingle not a sharp moment. So if you don't have boy,

453
00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:05,560
Speaker 1: fill that, that's us. All will only happen to an

454
00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:08,520
Speaker 1: archery hunter. Although you get scoped with a rifle if

455
00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:10,679
Speaker 1: you ever ever tried. So you're gonna be a new

456
00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:12,840
Speaker 1: hunter here real soon, my friends. And I'm listening to

457
00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:14,880
Speaker 1: this story and I'm just picturing this happening to me. Yeah,

458
00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:19,160
Speaker 1: like immediately, I'm picturing myself protecting you because you're part

459
00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:23,240
Speaker 1: of this podcast, You're loyal. I'm gonna protect you like

460
00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:25,600
Speaker 1: a baby bird. All right, I won't let you get

461
00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:28,199
Speaker 1: hurt by the gun of the fine I picked your

462
00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:32,879
Speaker 1: podcast perfect. All right, enjoy the interview with Brianna Popner

463
00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:39,159
Speaker 1: from the Swithsonian. I guess I grew up on an

464
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:43,640
Speaker 1: alder row. Hey, Briana, how are you? I'm good? Thanks?

465
00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:45,280
Speaker 1: How are you? Oh, I'm great. It's good to be

466
00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:47,800
Speaker 1: I'm like behind the scenes of the Sithsonian right now,

467
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:50,960
Speaker 1: welcome to back in the special hallways. Yeah, you guys,

468
00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:53,879
Speaker 1: ever feel kind of like Indiana Jones or maybe somebody

469
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:59,480
Speaker 1: really somebody even cooler than India a little bit, definitely scientist, Yes,

470
00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:03,440
Speaker 1: cooler than Indiana Jones. I would say, so good. That's

471
00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:07,880
Speaker 1: how we're gonna market you cooler than Indiana Jones. Awesome,

472
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:10,320
Speaker 1: I want a T shirt that says that Indiana Jones

473
00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:13,560
Speaker 1: two point. Oh. Um, You've done a lot of things

474
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:17,960
Speaker 1: that are cooler than Indiana. But first let's explain. I

475
00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:21,600
Speaker 1: think we could maybe start by explaining what paleo anthropology

476
00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:25,480
Speaker 1: actually is. Sure, So, I'm a paleo anthropologist, and that

477
00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:29,080
Speaker 1: means that I study people in the past. Um. I'm

478
00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:32,760
Speaker 1: particularly interested in the diets of people in the past.

479
00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:36,920
Speaker 1: They're kind of food gathering behaviors, UM, looking at the

480
00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:39,159
Speaker 1: evidence for the kinds of foods that they ate, and

481
00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:43,920
Speaker 1: specifically I'm interested in meat eating in human prehistory. Yeah,

482
00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:46,360
Speaker 1: so in human prehistory meat eating. We all, I think,

483
00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:48,760
Speaker 1: know that this is a very important turning point in

484
00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:52,919
Speaker 1: our humanity and our evolution. But why of all all

485
00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:54,919
Speaker 1: the fields of study that you could have gotten personally,

486
00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:57,640
Speaker 1: why how did you get here? Why did you get here?

487
00:27:57,760 --> 00:27:59,919
Speaker 1: Sure that's a loaded one, but that's it. No, it's

488
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:02,480
Speaker 1: good question. So I I decided early on in my

489
00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:05,560
Speaker 1: career that I wasn't really interested in studying the human

490
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:08,040
Speaker 1: fossils themselves. There just weren't enough of them, and there

491
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:10,600
Speaker 1: seemed to be UM, a lot of kind of big

492
00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:14,320
Speaker 1: egos fighting over small numbers of fossils. UM. But I

493
00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:17,959
Speaker 1: you know, to me, what something eats is so fundamental

494
00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:21,080
Speaker 1: to everything about it. UM. But I do really like bones,

495
00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:23,919
Speaker 1: and so I decided I wanted to study animal bones

496
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:26,720
Speaker 1: with evidence for butchery on them, and that that could

497
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:29,639
Speaker 1: give me a window into like a really direct window

498
00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:32,840
Speaker 1: into early human behavior. Yeah, we've talked about early human

499
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:35,720
Speaker 1: behavior in this podcast. Before You'll go back over the summer,

500
00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:38,400
Speaker 1: we talked to William von Hippel about this subject, and

501
00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:41,120
Speaker 1: as we're talking about it, it struck me that I

502
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:43,040
Speaker 1: wanted to get in more of the mechanics of how

503
00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:46,600
Speaker 1: we're making these large assumptions that we're making. And as

504
00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:48,040
Speaker 1: you were just telling me and the elevator a little

505
00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:50,000
Speaker 1: bit earlier, a lot of this stuff is abstract because

506
00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:53,400
Speaker 1: it happens over millions of years um and it's it's

507
00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:56,000
Speaker 1: it would almost be impossible for us to be precise

508
00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:59,560
Speaker 1: with this kind of evidence. So can you just kind

509
00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:02,520
Speaker 1: of set sent a place in time, like when did

510
00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:06,080
Speaker 1: meat eating become important for us outside of hunting? But

511
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:08,440
Speaker 1: like when when was the first evidence that meat eating

512
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:10,800
Speaker 1: was there and it was becoming important to us as

513
00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:13,520
Speaker 1: a species. So that's a that's actually a hard question

514
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:15,640
Speaker 1: to answer in some sense. So it seems to have

515
00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:18,920
Speaker 1: been a process by which meat eating became important. So

516
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:24,840
Speaker 1: the earliest right now claims of butchery marks on animal fossils,

517
00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:26,920
Speaker 1: which is kind of the real smoking gun evidence for

518
00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:30,840
Speaker 1: meat eating in the past, comes from um a couple

519
00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:33,160
Speaker 1: of fossils that are three point four million years old

520
00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:36,320
Speaker 1: from a site called Tekika in Ethiopia. Um After that,

521
00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:40,040
Speaker 1: there's some evidence starting um about two point six million

522
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:42,400
Speaker 1: years ago two point five million years ago, also sites

523
00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:46,080
Speaker 1: in Ethiopia. Slightly later sites UM in places like Kenya

524
00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:49,520
Speaker 1: and Tanzania. But it seems like really up until about

525
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:53,320
Speaker 1: two million years ago that meat eating was probably a

526
00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:57,840
Speaker 1: pretty opportunistic and infrequent thing that UM early humans did.

527
00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:01,400
Speaker 1: I should actually qualify that and say meat eating from

528
00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:04,800
Speaker 1: large animals. So it's very likely that at the absolute

529
00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:07,640
Speaker 1: beginning of the branching of the human family tree, the

530
00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:10,959
Speaker 1: split from the brand that lead to modern chimpanzees, who

531
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:15,160
Speaker 1: are closest living relative UM, even those earliest ancestors probably

532
00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:18,080
Speaker 1: eat meat in the sense of small animals, things like

533
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:21,760
Speaker 1: maybe lizards, birds, rodents, um, other things that they may

534
00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:23,960
Speaker 1: not have needed tools to be able to actually get into.

535
00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:27,840
Speaker 1: But the fossil evidence for butchery from large animals starts

536
00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:30,200
Speaker 1: somewhere between about two and a half and three and

537
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:32,480
Speaker 1: a half million years ago. By two million years ago,

538
00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:35,840
Speaker 1: um I was involved in some research outside called Kanjera

539
00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:39,440
Speaker 1: South in western Kenya UM and there we have evidence

540
00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:43,360
Speaker 1: for early humans bringing animals to a central place to

541
00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:47,240
Speaker 1: butcher them over and over again. So by this point

542
00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:48,920
Speaker 1: there's a little bit of a turning where like, okay,

543
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:51,960
Speaker 1: this this behavior is becoming a little bit more important. Um.

544
00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:54,440
Speaker 1: And then it kind of ramps up from there where

545
00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:58,440
Speaker 1: we start seeing more frequent evidence of butchery of many

546
00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:01,200
Speaker 1: different animals in one place. So you can can you

547
00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:03,680
Speaker 1: just we've again talked about this before in the podcast,

548
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:06,080
Speaker 1: but you can put us in a place in time. Yeah,

549
00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:08,520
Speaker 1: three point four million years ago, we like, I like

550
00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:14,040
Speaker 1: three points something that's a hundred thousand UM. Put us

551
00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:16,240
Speaker 1: a place time. We're in Africa. What do we look like?

552
00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:19,920
Speaker 1: You know, during these first evidences as they arrive, what

553
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:21,640
Speaker 1: do we look like? What are we doing? How are

554
00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:25,720
Speaker 1: we living? Yeah? Good questions right right? Our ancestors and

555
00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:28,920
Speaker 1: you know, kind of our our early relatives. So by

556
00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:31,160
Speaker 1: let's say, let's take three and a half or three

557
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:34,680
Speaker 1: million years ago in Africa. So the predominant species was

558
00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:39,680
Speaker 1: around is one called Australopithecus afarensis or Africanus maybe later

559
00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:43,160
Speaker 1: in time in southern Africa. And so these are um,

560
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:46,160
Speaker 1: early humans that are maybe three and a half feet

561
00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:49,640
Speaker 1: tall if you're female, maybe five ft tall if you're male. Um,

562
00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:52,719
Speaker 1: they walked upright on two legs. They were by peetle

563
00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:55,600
Speaker 1: um all species on the human family tree were by Peotle.

564
00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:59,280
Speaker 1: They probably didn't walk exactly like we did. They retain

565
00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:02,520
Speaker 1: some adaptations in their upper body to climb trees, so

566
00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:05,200
Speaker 1: they probably spent some time in the trees getting food,

567
00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:08,000
Speaker 1: getting away from predators, um, maybe sleeping in the trees

568
00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:11,280
Speaker 1: at night to be safe. Um. But what they didn't

569
00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:13,720
Speaker 1: have that later species had, at least that we can

570
00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:17,520
Speaker 1: find in the archaeological record, is any kind of hunting technology.

571
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:20,400
Speaker 1: They made tools out of stone. They could use those

572
00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:22,800
Speaker 1: tools to butcher animals, to break open their bones to

573
00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:26,000
Speaker 1: get at marrow inside or brains, um. But they didn't

574
00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:29,840
Speaker 1: have things like spears or bows and arrows. So part

575
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:33,120
Speaker 1: of the interesting question around when did um early humans

576
00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:36,360
Speaker 1: become really competent hunters is when can we see the

577
00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:40,360
Speaker 1: archaeological evidence for those tools in the archaeological record. We

578
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:42,600
Speaker 1: don't see that till about half a million years ago.

579
00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:44,800
Speaker 1: Meat eating might go back three and a half million

580
00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:47,280
Speaker 1: years ago. UM. So one thing I'm really interested in

581
00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:50,600
Speaker 1: our questions around how might scavenging have been a prominent

582
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:53,400
Speaker 1: part of our evolutionary history. Yeah, so let's talk about that,

583
00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:55,920
Speaker 1: because I think we just went down and looked at

584
00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:58,080
Speaker 1: the Hall of Origins here this Masonian that's something that

585
00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:01,239
Speaker 1: you're there's a video of you in there, like, uh,

586
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:03,640
Speaker 1: there's a lot of things going on there. But I

587
00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:07,480
Speaker 1: think one of the key understandings is, you know, how

588
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:10,400
Speaker 1: long were we scavengers? And then when did we habituate

589
00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:13,320
Speaker 1: this stuff? When did we start to understand how to

590
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:15,320
Speaker 1: use the tools, how to hunt, how to affect the

591
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:17,680
Speaker 1: world that wasn't right in front of our our feet?

592
00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:21,160
Speaker 1: So how long did you feel like that scavenging happened

593
00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:24,720
Speaker 1: prior to that jump? Um? Because I know that's a

594
00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:27,040
Speaker 1: big jump. Yeah. So well, the interesting thing is I'm

595
00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:29,560
Speaker 1: not sure that it was. I don't necessarily think that

596
00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:31,640
Speaker 1: like first there was a scavenging phase and then there

597
00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:33,680
Speaker 1: was a hunting phase. I mean even modern forage or

598
00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:36,360
Speaker 1: scavenge today. So the Hods in Tanzania sometimes get a

599
00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:39,000
Speaker 1: high proportion of the meat that they eat from scavenging

600
00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:41,640
Speaker 1: from lions UM. And I think in some sense of

601
00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:44,280
Speaker 1: scavenging gets this bad rap as something that's like lesser

602
00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:48,400
Speaker 1: than from hunting. But you know, scavenging UM often means

603
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:51,680
Speaker 1: that you don't come into close contact with predators UM.

604
00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:54,040
Speaker 1: If you're passive scavenging and wait till they're done. You

605
00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:56,600
Speaker 1: don't have to hunt the animals yourself. It's like free food.

606
00:33:56,680 --> 00:33:59,680
Speaker 1: A more efficient way. Yeah, yeah, and maybe a less

607
00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:02,400
Speaker 1: risk anyway. And so um, but I do think that

608
00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:07,080
Speaker 1: scavenging was probably the predominant way that early humans got

609
00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:09,960
Speaker 1: meat from large animals, the ones that they couldn't collect

610
00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:13,080
Speaker 1: or gatherer or you know, kind of hunt with their hands, um,

611
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:16,400
Speaker 1: for a long period of time, probably you know, at

612
00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:18,200
Speaker 1: least a million or two million years. I think that

613
00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:22,160
Speaker 1: scavenging was a big important part of our evolutionary history. Yeah,

614
00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:25,279
Speaker 1: and during this time, Like I think something that we're

615
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:28,719
Speaker 1: always trying to pinpoint and talk about is how we

616
00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:33,440
Speaker 1: developed as humans because of our intake of meat. And

617
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:35,640
Speaker 1: we were talking about this before. There's like the beginning,

618
00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:38,160
Speaker 1: and then there's when it becomes popularized or when we

619
00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:39,880
Speaker 1: can find evidence that it was going on in a

620
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:43,239
Speaker 1: larger scale that may be affected a larger population. So

621
00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:46,080
Speaker 1: when you're thinking of our our diets at this point,

622
00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:50,760
Speaker 1: where scavengers were omnivorous or eating whatever we can to survive,

623
00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:55,319
Speaker 1: or at least our ancestors are doing that, how much

624
00:34:56,120 --> 00:35:00,640
Speaker 1: is meat helping to aid evolution? At this point when

625
00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:02,520
Speaker 1: we don't really have evidence that it's a on a

626
00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:05,640
Speaker 1: mass scale, or there's large like we're taking down large

627
00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:07,920
Speaker 1: um unglits and eating it or whatever it might be.

628
00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:10,239
Speaker 1: That's an awesome question, and I think it's actually really

629
00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:13,439
Speaker 1: hard to answer of of how even if meat eating

630
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:18,080
Speaker 1: was a small component of our dietary history at that

631
00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:20,560
Speaker 1: point in time, how important might it have been. So

632
00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:23,719
Speaker 1: I read an interesting paper a little while ago from

633
00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:27,880
Speaker 1: researchers who studied chimpanzee hunting UM and it was UM.

634
00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:33,640
Speaker 1: They they proposed something called the thes um the meat

635
00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:37,879
Speaker 1: scrap hypothesis, is that even scraps of meat for chimpanzees

636
00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:41,520
Speaker 1: would have been so important nutritionally for certain components of

637
00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:44,760
Speaker 1: you know, um, macronutrients and other things in their diet

638
00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:49,839
Speaker 1: that UM. They that it would have been important enough

639
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:54,040
Speaker 1: that even infrequent hunting and meat eating of the monkeys

640
00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:57,879
Speaker 1: and other small animals that chimpsee UM, that it would

641
00:35:57,880 --> 00:35:59,520
Speaker 1: have been worth it, and that that would have been

642
00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:03,040
Speaker 1: a drive force for hunting UM in chimpanzees. And so

643
00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:07,800
Speaker 1: I think that we can't necessarily equate the frequency of

644
00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:11,839
Speaker 1: meat eating to its importance in our evolutionary history. Um,

645
00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:13,680
Speaker 1: And that's a way of me saying I don't know

646
00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:15,799
Speaker 1: the answer to that question is, but it's a really

647
00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:17,719
Speaker 1: good question. Well, you say, and I was reading some

648
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:19,239
Speaker 1: of your work and we were just talking about this

649
00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:22,480
Speaker 1: evolution is about benefits and costs. Right, So as as

650
00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:25,840
Speaker 1: meat is introduced to the diet and scavengers are pulling,

651
00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:30,080
Speaker 1: you know, pieces of flesh off already consume zebra like

652
00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:33,640
Speaker 1: whatever is left, they're starting to see whether they don't

653
00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:35,960
Speaker 1: realize that, but they're starting to feel the benefits of that.

654
00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:39,120
Speaker 1: And would that propel them forward? Like the cost of

655
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:42,120
Speaker 1: getting the meat is well below the benefits of the

656
00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:44,960
Speaker 1: nutrient dense flesh that they're then eating, right, And is

657
00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:46,920
Speaker 1: that what propelled it forward? I think so, I mean,

658
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:50,160
Speaker 1: and I think potentially, you know, um, basically like a

659
00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:52,800
Speaker 1: new kind of resource. Oh, well, these are you know,

660
00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:57,000
Speaker 1: it's it's a resource that is, like you said, nutrient dense.

661
00:36:57,160 --> 00:37:00,359
Speaker 1: It has a lot of protein um, not as much

662
00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:03,239
Speaker 1: with wild animals, but it would have had some fat um,

663
00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:06,520
Speaker 1: particularly the marrow in bones. And so I think that

664
00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:08,719
Speaker 1: you know, protein and fat are two things that are

665
00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:12,440
Speaker 1: real hard to come across in African savannah. Ecosystem. So

666
00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:15,920
Speaker 1: I think even occasional meat eating might have been important

667
00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:19,840
Speaker 1: from a nutritional perspective, and then that changed our behavior.

668
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:22,719
Speaker 1: You know, maybe people were uh, you know, early humans

669
00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:26,000
Speaker 1: were going out and actually actively scavenging more often, and

670
00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:29,840
Speaker 1: um maybe you know, maybe that eventually led to hunting.

671
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:33,279
Speaker 1: So we could go, I could go forever. But do

672
00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:36,920
Speaker 1: you feel like, um, I read another thing that you

673
00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:39,560
Speaker 1: were writing that over the course of six million years

674
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:42,520
Speaker 1: our brain is increased, the size of our brain, especially

675
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:45,360
Speaker 1: neo cortex. But but in in in the case of this,

676
00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:49,320
Speaker 1: when did you know we have we know, okay, we

677
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:53,360
Speaker 1: gotta we gotta just of brain growth, like what percentage

678
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:56,400
Speaker 1: are we once we in this period of time and

679
00:37:56,520 --> 00:37:58,960
Speaker 1: scavenger like where are we and how much do we

680
00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:01,120
Speaker 1: have left to go? So the interesting thing is that

681
00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:05,560
Speaker 1: there there's a hypothesis called the expensive tissue hypothesis that

682
00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:10,439
Speaker 1: um is trying to link um the expansion of brain

683
00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:13,520
Speaker 1: size over human evolutionary history with meat eating and so

684
00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:18,560
Speaker 1: um our brains are incredibly energetically expensive. They take up

685
00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:21,040
Speaker 1: about two percent of our body weight. They use of

686
00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:23,799
Speaker 1: our energy at rest. If you're a baby or a kid,

687
00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:27,280
Speaker 1: six of your energy goes so like maintaining and growing

688
00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:30,880
Speaker 1: your brain so um, high cost in terms of energy

689
00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:36,000
Speaker 1: and so um. This hypothesis originally proposed that the way

690
00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:41,360
Speaker 1: that evolutionary, from an evolutionary perspective, brain size could increase

691
00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:45,640
Speaker 1: is by decreasing some other kind of energetically expensive tissue

692
00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:48,600
Speaker 1: in the body. While that other energetically expensive tissue is

693
00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:51,200
Speaker 1: gut tissue. And so the idea was that once people

694
00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:54,600
Speaker 1: started early humans started incorporating meat into their diet um,

695
00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:56,840
Speaker 1: they could decrease I mean, this is not quite how

696
00:38:56,880 --> 00:38:59,040
Speaker 1: evolution works. Is not like they decided to decrease their

697
00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:02,640
Speaker 1: gut tissue, but there was kind of a decreased um

698
00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:05,520
Speaker 1: selection pressure for having long guts to be able to

699
00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:09,040
Speaker 1: digest plant foods um, and that that released a constraint

700
00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:10,759
Speaker 1: on the evolution of brain size. And there would have

701
00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:14,239
Speaker 1: been other selection pressure, probably from a social perspective um,

702
00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:18,600
Speaker 1: for for growing larger brains. The problem so that that

703
00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:20,880
Speaker 1: was I I you know, I remember reading about that

704
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:23,920
Speaker 1: hypothesis as undergrad and thinking this is great. This probably

705
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:25,919
Speaker 1: explains a lot of you know, the link between maybe

706
00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:29,040
Speaker 1: meat eating in brain growth um or brain expansion through time.

707
00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:32,000
Speaker 1: The problem is that the timing doesn't work anymore. So

708
00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:35,040
Speaker 1: the earliest evidence for meat eating, as we've talked about,

709
00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:36,920
Speaker 1: is somewhere between two and a half and three and

710
00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:39,239
Speaker 1: a half million years ago. But the big increase in

711
00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:42,440
Speaker 1: brain size in our evolutionary history compared to body size.

712
00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:45,040
Speaker 1: So as body size is slowly increasing, brain size is

713
00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:48,080
Speaker 1: slowly increasing. But this big jump in brain size happens

714
00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:50,880
Speaker 1: at about a million years ago, and that's long after

715
00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:56,080
Speaker 1: um use we see even more significant meat eating in prehistory,

716
00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:59,759
Speaker 1: so that um, you know, now there's an idea that

717
00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:03,840
Speaker 1: ma be it was cooking that actually kind of you know,

718
00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:07,360
Speaker 1: was related to that big brain size increase. Maybe maybe

719
00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:09,360
Speaker 1: a lot of maybes, and a lot of maybes. My

720
00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:11,399
Speaker 1: world is full of maybes, and that's all right, um

721
00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:13,440
Speaker 1: you know, as a scientist, what I'm trying to do

722
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:15,160
Speaker 1: is kind of rule out some of the maybes and

723
00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:18,000
Speaker 1: get a little bit closer to what, um, what we

724
00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:20,160
Speaker 1: think we know when we were talking about this earlier.

725
00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:22,080
Speaker 1: This is maybe jumping ahead and where I wanted to go.

726
00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:25,719
Speaker 1: But like I've I first became interested this years and

727
00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:29,040
Speaker 1: years ago. I was writing an article about the Paleo

728
00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:31,000
Speaker 1: died and as a hunter, whether I want to play

729
00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:32,719
Speaker 1: into this or whether I want to step back from it,

730
00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:34,600
Speaker 1: Like whereas a hunter, Yeah, I get it, I'm eating.

731
00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:37,840
Speaker 1: I'm doing the paleo thing, but only because I like

732
00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:40,719
Speaker 1: hunting and I like the meat that I get. Um.

733
00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:44,560
Speaker 1: And I started to read and from a lot of

734
00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:47,520
Speaker 1: the dietitians and some of the practitioners of the paleo diet,

735
00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:51,360
Speaker 1: these synthesized or like really boiled down numbers, you know,

736
00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:53,800
Speaker 1: a hundred thousand generations of this, and I started to

737
00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:55,879
Speaker 1: pair at that because it was very convenient, like, oh

738
00:40:56,239 --> 00:40:58,960
Speaker 1: these not well, look at that, this proves that hunting

739
00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:01,360
Speaker 1: is awesome. I never really looked into it. And then

740
00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:03,160
Speaker 1: when you start to really break down what you do,

741
00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:06,759
Speaker 1: you have room filled rooms filled with books and fossils

742
00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:10,799
Speaker 1: and skulls and and all this stuff that that comes

743
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:12,600
Speaker 1: out to say, like what percentage of this do we

744
00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:16,759
Speaker 1: actually know? And there's no way given whatever percentage you

745
00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:18,279
Speaker 1: might put on and I don't know if you want

746
00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:21,279
Speaker 1: to put a number on it, it depend on what

747
00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:23,839
Speaker 1: the question is. In a sense, like you know, um,

748
00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:25,719
Speaker 1: one of the things that I will often say is

749
00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:29,239
Speaker 1: that we can know maybe some points in time in

750
00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:31,360
Speaker 1: which we can see the earliest evidence for something or

751
00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:33,719
Speaker 1: when it becomes more common. I can't tell you what

752
00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:37,359
Speaker 1: proportion of you know, early human diets three million years

753
00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:39,839
Speaker 1: ago were meat as opposed to plant. Nobody can tell

754
00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:41,839
Speaker 1: you that. If they tell you that, I would, Um,

755
00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:46,160
Speaker 1: I would talk to somebody else. Yeah, the practitioners. There's

756
00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:49,399
Speaker 1: a documentary I just watched called Game Changers where they're

757
00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:51,960
Speaker 1: in they're saying, there's an anthropologist in there saying, well,

758
00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:54,520
Speaker 1: it's not exactly humans and meat. They only, it's not

759
00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:57,200
Speaker 1: exactly what you think it is. And if you if

760
00:41:57,239 --> 00:41:59,920
Speaker 1: you go talk to a paleo dietitian or somebody who's

761
00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:03,560
Speaker 1: who's um out there shouting about the paleo diet, they're

762
00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:05,840
Speaker 1: going to tell you that meat is essential and this

763
00:42:06,040 --> 00:42:07,799
Speaker 1: is this is how we came to be who we are,

764
00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:10,240
Speaker 1: and you have to They answered, got to be somewhere

765
00:42:10,239 --> 00:42:11,960
Speaker 1: in the middle of that. It is. So I think

766
00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:13,760
Speaker 1: it's somewhere in the middle of that. Yes, I study

767
00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:16,239
Speaker 1: meat eating in human evolution. I don't necessarily think it

768
00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:21,279
Speaker 1: was like the most important dietary transition in our evolutionary history. Um.

769
00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:25,560
Speaker 1: And I think you know, it's interesting. There's an idea

770
00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:30,320
Speaker 1: that when modern humans first migrated into Europe and Western Asia,

771
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:34,200
Speaker 1: there was another species called neandertals living there, and so um.

772
00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:37,320
Speaker 1: One thing that we see is that Neanderthals were actually

773
00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:40,879
Speaker 1: excellent hunters. They were great at taking down big ice

774
00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:44,480
Speaker 1: age animals. They probably were the most meat eating of

775
00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:48,720
Speaker 1: our evolutionary cousins. Um. And when modern humans first migrated

776
00:42:48,719 --> 00:42:50,759
Speaker 1: into Europe, is an idea that actually they may have

777
00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:53,400
Speaker 1: out competed the neandertals, not by eating more meat, but

778
00:42:53,480 --> 00:42:56,600
Speaker 1: by actually increasing their dietary breadth so they would eat

779
00:42:56,680 --> 00:42:59,680
Speaker 1: like smaller animals. They would eat things like snails, they

780
00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:03,759
Speaker 1: would after things like turtles, and so um. Maybe it's

781
00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:07,919
Speaker 1: actually our dietary flexibility that makes us so successful. Yeah,

782
00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:10,840
Speaker 1: And are like if you look, if you listen to

783
00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:12,719
Speaker 1: all the dietitians out there, and you're thinking about, like

784
00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:15,879
Speaker 1: where does eating meat sit? I think the smart ones,

785
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:18,520
Speaker 1: at least ones that I've listened to, are saying like,

786
00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:23,320
Speaker 1: there's an omnivorous where omnivorous? We are definitely omnivores. We

787
00:43:23,360 --> 00:43:26,160
Speaker 1: are not, you know, naturally carnivores. That we're also late

788
00:43:26,320 --> 00:43:29,799
Speaker 1: not naturally herbivorous, like we are we are square omnivors. Yeah,

789
00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:32,439
Speaker 1: and and how do we When I was reading another

790
00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:34,040
Speaker 1: thing you read that said that, because I want to

791
00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:35,680
Speaker 1: make people think that I know the stuff without rating

792
00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:38,600
Speaker 1: it from you, I don't. What did you say? There

793
00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:41,799
Speaker 1: was eighteen species on our evolutionary tree at least at

794
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:43,839
Speaker 1: least and you guys have you? I saw you had

795
00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:46,040
Speaker 1: a little timeline in the in your office there that

796
00:43:46,440 --> 00:43:49,439
Speaker 1: I looked at that timeline. And what struck me isn't

797
00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:54,040
Speaker 1: what I think straight in front of timelines everywhere there's

798
00:43:54,040 --> 00:43:57,480
Speaker 1: a guy, there's a guy at the top. So you're

799
00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:00,200
Speaker 1: tracking in this graph, I'm looking at seven million years

800
00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:04,000
Speaker 1: into the past, and there's eighteen plus species on the

801
00:44:04,040 --> 00:44:07,360
Speaker 1: evolutionary tree that eventually came to seven billion whatever the

802
00:44:07,440 --> 00:44:10,040
Speaker 1: number is of humans on this earth. One species left

803
00:44:10,160 --> 00:44:13,800
Speaker 1: just as Yeah, And so if you're talking about like,

804
00:44:14,320 --> 00:44:16,239
Speaker 1: where does this all come to ahead, it's that it's

805
00:44:16,280 --> 00:44:18,279
Speaker 1: that there's some other species you can study that are

806
00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:21,560
Speaker 1: now gone totally extinct or not. What the hell did

807
00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:23,920
Speaker 1: we do? Exactly? What did we do that was different?

808
00:44:23,960 --> 00:44:25,920
Speaker 1: And you know, it's interesting. Another thing that strikes me

809
00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:28,880
Speaker 1: about and so this is a bar graph, sort of

810
00:44:28,920 --> 00:44:32,440
Speaker 1: a bar chart of the fossil evidence of different early

811
00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:34,680
Speaker 1: human species. One thing that always strikes me is that

812
00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:36,879
Speaker 1: most of the time there was more than one kind

813
00:44:36,920 --> 00:44:39,319
Speaker 1: of human walk in the earth, and so it wasn't

814
00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:42,120
Speaker 1: just that, you know, there's this march of man of

815
00:44:42,239 --> 00:44:44,840
Speaker 1: sort of one species evolving into another into another. They

816
00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:47,120
Speaker 1: were probably doing different things in the past. Some of

817
00:44:47,200 --> 00:44:48,600
Speaker 1: them might have been eating more meat, some of them

818
00:44:48,680 --> 00:44:50,120
Speaker 1: might have been eating more plants, some of them might

819
00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:52,200
Speaker 1: have been eating a lot of insects. And so I

820
00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:55,359
Speaker 1: think there's there's kind of aum. You know, when people

821
00:44:55,400 --> 00:44:58,680
Speaker 1: talk about what was the paleo diet, I'm like, what, like,

822
00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:01,839
Speaker 1: at what time, in what place? By what people um?

823
00:45:01,960 --> 00:45:05,239
Speaker 1: And so I think, you know, um again, versatility and

824
00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:09,600
Speaker 1: kind of flexibility is probably actually what led modern humans

825
00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:14,600
Speaker 1: to um dominate the planet. The domination, and that's why

826
00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:17,439
Speaker 1: I think that's the question that we really have to ask,

827
00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:21,320
Speaker 1: not whether the whether eating meat accelerated our brain growth

828
00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:24,399
Speaker 1: and shrunk our gut size to to where we could

829
00:45:24,440 --> 00:45:26,840
Speaker 1: be to where we are today. We know it played

830
00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:30,000
Speaker 1: some It played as well as hunting plates, because that

831
00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:32,759
Speaker 1: was how we got that all this played some role

832
00:45:33,120 --> 00:45:38,440
Speaker 1: in our domination. As we'll say from from an evolutionary perspective,

833
00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:39,759
Speaker 1: there's a lot of us on the planet. I mean,

834
00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:41,680
Speaker 1: there's only one species of human. That's not such a

835
00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:45,200
Speaker 1: great you know strategy from an evolutionary sense, though, Yeah,

836
00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:49,760
Speaker 1: we have our owned monoculture, and so the question then becomes,

837
00:45:50,560 --> 00:45:54,360
Speaker 1: you know, why why did we Why did we above

838
00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:56,440
Speaker 1: all others? Right? And then how do we trace that

839
00:45:56,520 --> 00:45:59,480
Speaker 1: back and continue? Because that's why kind of stretches over

840
00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:02,160
Speaker 1: millions of years, and how at each step in this

841
00:46:02,520 --> 00:46:05,359
Speaker 1: this process, you haven't broken down by millions of years here,

842
00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:09,120
Speaker 1: like each million year, how did we over each one

843
00:46:09,120 --> 00:46:11,719
Speaker 1: of those eighteen species? How did we move forward and

844
00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:14,760
Speaker 1: they die off? Yeah? So the so the why questions

845
00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:16,800
Speaker 1: are the hardest to answer in the past. And I

846
00:46:16,840 --> 00:46:19,600
Speaker 1: mean our species only evolved three hundred thousand years ago,

847
00:46:20,040 --> 00:46:22,840
Speaker 1: so most of the time during our during you know,

848
00:46:22,960 --> 00:46:26,279
Speaker 1: human evolutionary history writ large, we were actually not on

849
00:46:26,360 --> 00:46:28,800
Speaker 1: the planet. We also aren't the longest lived of the

850
00:46:28,840 --> 00:46:31,520
Speaker 1: species on our family tree. So home erectus um, you know,

851
00:46:31,640 --> 00:46:34,360
Speaker 1: takes the prize for that. It was around I don't know,

852
00:46:34,440 --> 00:46:37,080
Speaker 1: probably nine times longer, maybe eight times longer than our

853
00:46:37,120 --> 00:46:40,320
Speaker 1: species um. You know. I hope we end up surviving

854
00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:44,120
Speaker 1: that long if we don't screw it up. Um. But so,

855
00:46:45,040 --> 00:46:47,160
Speaker 1: but I think I think that is exactly the question.

856
00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:52,000
Speaker 1: What led us to, um, maybe outcompete other species that

857
00:46:52,040 --> 00:46:55,440
Speaker 1: we were living alongside. There has been some interesting articles

858
00:46:55,480 --> 00:46:57,799
Speaker 1: that I've read recently. Let's say it's actually maybe it's

859
00:46:57,840 --> 00:47:00,719
Speaker 1: just a little bit of a difference in our productive rate,

860
00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:03,040
Speaker 1: Like maybe it's just we had one or two more

861
00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:05,680
Speaker 1: kids per family, and that was the way that we

862
00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:09,719
Speaker 1: were able to outcompete neandertals for instance. Um. You know,

863
00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:12,400
Speaker 1: I often get asked like why did neandertals go extinct?

864
00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:14,360
Speaker 1: Why did any of these species go extinct? And I

865
00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:17,839
Speaker 1: will turn on and say, why are species going extinct today? Um?

866
00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:21,400
Speaker 1: You know, they're probably multiple components. Obviously humans are a

867
00:47:21,440 --> 00:47:25,280
Speaker 1: part of it for most of them. Um. But whether

868
00:47:25,400 --> 00:47:29,040
Speaker 1: it was you know, um, changing climates that led to

869
00:47:29,160 --> 00:47:31,960
Speaker 1: their preferred food and the areas where they like to

870
00:47:32,080 --> 00:47:35,959
Speaker 1: live disappeared. Whether it was also competition with modern humans

871
00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:39,120
Speaker 1: for the same resources, whether it was you know, maybe

872
00:47:39,200 --> 00:47:43,680
Speaker 1: the cooperative um nature of modern human and having kind

873
00:47:43,719 --> 00:47:46,279
Speaker 1: of extended trade networks, and maybe it was that maybe

874
00:47:46,320 --> 00:47:48,279
Speaker 1: it was that we were able to kind of out

875
00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:51,799
Speaker 1: cooperate them. That's another idea. Yeah, there's and there's a lot.

876
00:47:51,840 --> 00:47:54,360
Speaker 1: I mean, you gave I talked that I was. I

877
00:47:54,480 --> 00:48:00,600
Speaker 1: was watching just called like human evolution over yeah maybe no, no,

878
00:48:00,760 --> 00:48:04,000
Speaker 1: it's not for us. And it started to touch on

879
00:48:04,840 --> 00:48:06,920
Speaker 1: um I want to eventually get back to the timeline,

880
00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:10,160
Speaker 1: but I found this like interesting. Started touch on contraception

881
00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:15,359
Speaker 1: and c sections and the pelvic forms of a chimpanzee

882
00:48:15,600 --> 00:48:18,800
Speaker 1: versus a human, like all these interesting things. Points and

883
00:48:18,840 --> 00:48:22,480
Speaker 1: evolution where our bodies and our brains have evolved to

884
00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:26,160
Speaker 1: to some certain stimuli or some certain way of being,

885
00:48:26,239 --> 00:48:28,600
Speaker 1: and then we change that pretty quickly via technology or

886
00:48:28,640 --> 00:48:31,640
Speaker 1: some kind of some other sort of change, and it

887
00:48:31,880 --> 00:48:34,920
Speaker 1: dractually impacts our own evolution. And so give us a

888
00:48:35,520 --> 00:48:37,920
Speaker 1: I don't know how you even start that conversation you

889
00:48:38,120 --> 00:48:40,400
Speaker 1: just said, but well, so, I mean, you know, one thing,

890
00:48:40,480 --> 00:48:42,320
Speaker 1: one thing that's important to think about is that humans

891
00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:45,480
Speaker 1: are amazing and altering our own environment, and so we

892
00:48:45,600 --> 00:48:47,960
Speaker 1: do that on an incredibly large scale with our planet.

893
00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:50,120
Speaker 1: We do that in a small scale, both sort of

894
00:48:50,200 --> 00:48:54,239
Speaker 1: from a biological and a social perspective. So but but

895
00:48:54,440 --> 00:48:56,799
Speaker 1: the question of the title of the talk is human

896
00:48:56,840 --> 00:49:00,200
Speaker 1: evolution over absolutely not. And so I think you know,

897
00:49:00,360 --> 00:49:02,480
Speaker 1: from the perspective of the things out there that can

898
00:49:02,600 --> 00:49:06,920
Speaker 1: kill us, um, they are less often times today large predators,

899
00:49:07,000 --> 00:49:09,960
Speaker 1: but they are things like tiny microbes. And so the

900
00:49:10,080 --> 00:49:13,040
Speaker 1: selection pressures that are happening in modern humans today honestly

901
00:49:13,120 --> 00:49:16,520
Speaker 1: are mostly along the lines of health and disease, because

902
00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:18,359
Speaker 1: you know what, a lot of people still die from

903
00:49:18,400 --> 00:49:20,920
Speaker 1: infectious disease. A lot of people still die from you know,

904
00:49:21,520 --> 00:49:28,160
Speaker 1: um uh, you know, um, cardiovascular disease, and so adaptations

905
00:49:28,239 --> 00:49:33,040
Speaker 1: and changes that um help people avoid that or that

906
00:49:33,560 --> 00:49:36,239
Speaker 1: that makes some people more likely to survive that those

907
00:49:36,239 --> 00:49:39,520
Speaker 1: are really important. And that's where evolution is happening. And

908
00:49:40,120 --> 00:49:43,759
Speaker 1: as we get through this, I mean you even brought up, oh, well,

909
00:49:44,080 --> 00:49:47,040
Speaker 1: there was some sort of virus that was discovered onto

910
00:49:47,120 --> 00:49:51,440
Speaker 1: some like permafrost, some ice, like what if what if

911
00:49:51,520 --> 00:49:55,719
Speaker 1: something melts and some human ending virus is coming now

912
00:49:55,800 --> 00:50:01,239
Speaker 1: they know exact so well. And you know, I was

913
00:50:01,239 --> 00:50:04,920
Speaker 1: actually reading yesterday about um, you know, sadly there are

914
00:50:05,719 --> 00:50:09,000
Speaker 1: as the Arctic is melting, there are archaeological sites that

915
00:50:09,080 --> 00:50:12,319
Speaker 1: are basically being thought and there's this evidence that's being

916
00:50:12,480 --> 00:50:15,520
Speaker 1: destroyed now, um, and so there's some great partnerships that's

917
00:50:15,520 --> 00:50:20,319
Speaker 1: totally off topic between um like archaeological archaeologists and First

918
00:50:20,440 --> 00:50:23,920
Speaker 1: Nations peoples in Northern Canada to like go and rescue

919
00:50:23,960 --> 00:50:27,359
Speaker 1: this heritage. Um So. But yeah, I mean if if

920
00:50:27,440 --> 00:50:30,800
Speaker 1: an ancient virus you know, that has been frozen in

921
00:50:30,880 --> 00:50:35,759
Speaker 1: the perma frost for thousands of years, um basically gets reactivated.

922
00:50:35,880 --> 00:50:39,680
Speaker 1: I don't know. Maybe we should go to Mars, that's right.

923
00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:42,480
Speaker 1: I've seen the movies exactly. You're like Indiana Jones will

924
00:50:42,480 --> 00:50:44,600
Speaker 1: probably send you up there, That's right and figure it out.

925
00:50:44,960 --> 00:50:47,480
Speaker 1: It's a cool hat. Um. We should return to the

926
00:50:47,520 --> 00:50:50,040
Speaker 1: actually okay, yes, timeline of what I was hoping to

927
00:50:50,080 --> 00:50:52,520
Speaker 1: get to you. But there's two things or talking about scavenging,

928
00:50:52,520 --> 00:50:54,080
Speaker 1: but there's two things I think that are important here.

929
00:50:54,080 --> 00:50:56,560
Speaker 1: You can tell me in which order, tools and fire.

930
00:50:57,080 --> 00:50:59,279
Speaker 1: Yeah so, um, at least in the order that we

931
00:50:59,360 --> 00:51:02,239
Speaker 1: see in the archaeogo record, tools definitely came first. Um So.

932
00:51:02,360 --> 00:51:05,680
Speaker 1: The earliest technology goes back to right now about three

933
00:51:05,760 --> 00:51:08,279
Speaker 1: point three million years um stone tools from a site

934
00:51:08,320 --> 00:51:11,960
Speaker 1: called Low Mequi in Kenya. Um. And then kind of

935
00:51:12,040 --> 00:51:14,000
Speaker 1: like the evidence for butchery, we also see a little

936
00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:17,319
Speaker 1: bit of a gap in um. Stone tool technology picks

937
00:51:17,400 --> 00:51:19,480
Speaker 1: up again around two and a half million years ago.

938
00:51:20,080 --> 00:51:23,560
Speaker 1: UM and so, but the earliest stone tool technology called um,

939
00:51:23,920 --> 00:51:26,040
Speaker 1: well there's a little maqui in. But the old want

940
00:51:26,080 --> 00:51:28,440
Speaker 1: technology that lasted for over a million years is basically,

941
00:51:28,520 --> 00:51:31,880
Speaker 1: you take a roundish rock, you um, hit an angular

942
00:51:31,960 --> 00:51:34,000
Speaker 1: rock with it, and you knock off a stone flake.

943
00:51:34,440 --> 00:51:36,920
Speaker 1: So the tool is that stone flake which has a

944
00:51:37,000 --> 00:51:40,160
Speaker 1: sharp edge. It allows you to you know, butcher animals,

945
00:51:40,239 --> 00:51:43,880
Speaker 1: cut wood, sharpen a stick, um, do all kinds of

946
00:51:44,040 --> 00:51:46,800
Speaker 1: you know, maybe pounding tools for processing plants. It allows

947
00:51:46,840 --> 00:51:48,840
Speaker 1: you to just do all kinds of things that you

948
00:51:48,880 --> 00:51:51,960
Speaker 1: couldn't do before. It also allows you to start processing

949
00:51:52,000 --> 00:51:54,520
Speaker 1: your food outside of your mouth. So at the same

950
00:51:54,600 --> 00:51:57,279
Speaker 1: time that we see the origin of stone tool technology,

951
00:51:57,760 --> 00:52:00,279
Speaker 1: we see in one branch of our evolutionary story, the

952
00:52:00,360 --> 00:52:02,719
Speaker 1: one that led to us, we see a decrease in

953
00:52:02,840 --> 00:52:05,200
Speaker 1: the size and strength of the jaws and teeth because

954
00:52:05,239 --> 00:52:07,800
Speaker 1: basically people are processing food outside of their mounds a

955
00:52:07,800 --> 00:52:10,080
Speaker 1: little bit more. Yeah, and you would imagine if I

956
00:52:10,160 --> 00:52:11,319
Speaker 1: have a tool here and I have a really tough

957
00:52:11,320 --> 00:52:14,680
Speaker 1: piece of meat, exactly pound on a little bit, make

958
00:52:14,719 --> 00:52:16,120
Speaker 1: a little softer make it so you don't have to

959
00:52:16,160 --> 00:52:19,200
Speaker 1: spend I mean, chimpanzee is our closest living relatives, spend

960
00:52:19,239 --> 00:52:22,320
Speaker 1: inordinate amount of time just chewing, and for us not

961
00:52:22,480 --> 00:52:24,239
Speaker 1: to have to do that, we can spend time doing

962
00:52:24,280 --> 00:52:26,680
Speaker 1: other things, even our earlier ancestors who were eating meat

963
00:52:26,719 --> 00:52:29,160
Speaker 1: and plants. Yeah, and from there, and you were showing

964
00:52:29,200 --> 00:52:31,520
Speaker 1: me some of the early tools, and people think like tools, No,

965
00:52:31,719 --> 00:52:34,240
Speaker 1: it's just a chunk of rock that has a certain

966
00:52:34,360 --> 00:52:36,680
Speaker 1: shape that can be used for a certain thing. And

967
00:52:36,840 --> 00:52:39,120
Speaker 1: to look at him there, that's not impressive at all

968
00:52:39,520 --> 00:52:42,919
Speaker 1: to our our modern minds, but it's something that going

969
00:52:43,080 --> 00:52:46,600
Speaker 1: from kind of the modern idea of what a tool is,

970
00:52:46,719 --> 00:52:49,160
Speaker 1: these things were just when you're showing to me, like, oh,

971
00:52:49,200 --> 00:52:52,640
Speaker 1: that's a nice right, And so I mean they don't

972
00:52:52,680 --> 00:52:55,400
Speaker 1: look impressive, but you know, whether they were cooler than

973
00:52:55,480 --> 00:53:00,000
Speaker 1: iPhones is they were more important to our evolutionary history.

974
00:53:00,160 --> 00:53:03,880
Speaker 1: I mean, the ability to use tools to make other tools,

975
00:53:03,960 --> 00:53:06,480
Speaker 1: to use tools to modify your environment, to use tools

976
00:53:06,520 --> 00:53:09,640
Speaker 1: to get food. It was just transformative. Yeah. And and

977
00:53:10,800 --> 00:53:13,800
Speaker 1: we go probably what at least a million or so

978
00:53:13,960 --> 00:53:18,280
Speaker 1: years with tools without fire, right, Oh, absolutely, actually longer

979
00:53:18,320 --> 00:53:20,080
Speaker 1: than that, So that right, now that I think the

980
00:53:20,120 --> 00:53:24,239
Speaker 1: earliest solid evidence for UM controlled use of fire comes

981
00:53:24,280 --> 00:53:26,120
Speaker 1: from about a million years ago. Some people want to

982
00:53:26,120 --> 00:53:27,640
Speaker 1: push it back to about a million and a half,

983
00:53:28,120 --> 00:53:30,399
Speaker 1: but certainly, you know, people are eating meat, they're using

984
00:53:30,480 --> 00:53:35,239
Speaker 1: tools long before we have good evidence for cooking. That said,

985
00:53:35,280 --> 00:53:37,400
Speaker 1: I think the evidence for cooking is a little harder

986
00:53:37,480 --> 00:53:39,919
Speaker 1: to find. So it may be that people were maybe

987
00:53:39,960 --> 00:53:43,400
Speaker 1: sporadically using fire but longer before that. But you know,

988
00:53:43,520 --> 00:53:45,080
Speaker 1: I can only go with the evidence that we have.

989
00:53:46,080 --> 00:53:47,840
Speaker 1: So based on that evidence that we have, when do

990
00:53:47,960 --> 00:53:52,000
Speaker 1: you really start to line up fire tools, scavenging, all

991
00:53:52,080 --> 00:53:54,960
Speaker 1: the things we're doing to get meat with our brains

992
00:53:55,200 --> 00:53:59,600
Speaker 1: exploding and growing to start this, you know, really you

993
00:53:59,640 --> 00:54:05,840
Speaker 1: would raced. But this movement towards UM yes, so interesting.

994
00:54:05,880 --> 00:54:08,919
Speaker 1: So Homeorectus is a species that evolved just a little

995
00:54:09,080 --> 00:54:12,560
Speaker 1: after one point nine million years ago and lasted up

996
00:54:12,600 --> 00:54:14,920
Speaker 1: until a little less than a hundred fifty thousand years ago.

997
00:54:15,760 --> 00:54:19,080
Speaker 1: So sometime during that species evolutionary history that we see

998
00:54:19,480 --> 00:54:22,920
Speaker 1: earliest fire a million years ago. You know, UM technology

999
00:54:23,000 --> 00:54:25,759
Speaker 1: as well before then, UM meat eating as well before then.

1000
00:54:25,840 --> 00:54:28,920
Speaker 1: But also the biggest increase in brain size compared to

1001
00:54:29,000 --> 00:54:31,120
Speaker 1: body size is also at about a million years ago,

1002
00:54:31,480 --> 00:54:33,560
Speaker 1: so there was potentially, at least with the evidence that

1003
00:54:33,600 --> 00:54:36,840
Speaker 1: we have now, something happening around that time that may have,

1004
00:54:37,320 --> 00:54:40,279
Speaker 1: you know, caused some significant changes in the biology and

1005
00:54:40,400 --> 00:54:43,360
Speaker 1: behavior of that species. That species is probably sort of

1006
00:54:43,440 --> 00:54:49,440
Speaker 1: our our um great grandparents species or grandparents species. So um,

1007
00:54:49,840 --> 00:54:52,040
Speaker 1: right now, from the fossil evidence that we have, it

1008
00:54:52,120 --> 00:54:55,480
Speaker 1: looked like Homeorectus in Africa evolved into a species called

1009
00:54:55,520 --> 00:54:59,960
Speaker 1: Homo Heidelbergensis um, and that species populations in Africa evolved

1010
00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:02,520
Speaker 1: into us evolved into Homo sapiens. So they were an

1011
00:55:02,520 --> 00:55:05,279
Speaker 1: important part of our revolutionary history. And then that when

1012
00:55:06,200 --> 00:55:08,759
Speaker 1: when we look at you know, if if I'm looking

1013
00:55:08,840 --> 00:55:11,279
Speaker 1: at kind of like the line graph of of brain

1014
00:55:11,360 --> 00:55:15,920
Speaker 1: growth and where in that does that things does it

1015
00:55:16,000 --> 00:55:19,200
Speaker 1: spike or does it so that the sort of the

1016
00:55:19,480 --> 00:55:21,600
Speaker 1: big inflection point is at a million years ago, so

1017
00:55:21,680 --> 00:55:24,239
Speaker 1: it's slowly going up with body size kind of at

1018
00:55:24,280 --> 00:55:26,520
Speaker 1: the same rate between six million years ago and a

1019
00:55:26,600 --> 00:55:28,120
Speaker 1: million years ago, and then all of a sudden you

1020
00:55:28,200 --> 00:55:30,279
Speaker 1: get this, you get this kind of big uptick and

1021
00:55:30,360 --> 00:55:33,160
Speaker 1: so you get, um, a big increase in brain size

1022
00:55:33,160 --> 00:55:35,719
Speaker 1: starting at about a million years ago. So by that time,

1023
00:55:35,800 --> 00:55:39,160
Speaker 1: homeorectus body size was already a kind of basically modern

1024
00:55:39,280 --> 00:55:41,359
Speaker 1: human body size and shape. So you get the body

1025
00:55:41,400 --> 00:55:44,400
Speaker 1: size and shape is the is, the gut, the large intestine,

1026
00:55:44,480 --> 00:55:48,560
Speaker 1: everything kind of already it is. And so the you know,

1027
00:55:48,680 --> 00:55:51,279
Speaker 1: the guts of homeorectus is much more not like a

1028
00:55:51,400 --> 00:55:55,200
Speaker 1: gut of chimpanzee, which has kind of a like a

1029
00:55:55,320 --> 00:55:58,760
Speaker 1: cone shaped gut, but more like a narrower, barrel shaped

1030
00:55:58,800 --> 00:56:02,640
Speaker 1: gut like we have at this point. Um, how long

1031
00:56:02,719 --> 00:56:05,480
Speaker 1: have you have we been eating meat? Um? At least

1032
00:56:06,120 --> 00:56:08,080
Speaker 1: a million and a half years, potentially two and a

1033
00:56:08,120 --> 00:56:09,799
Speaker 1: half a million years. How long have we been hunting

1034
00:56:09,880 --> 00:56:14,200
Speaker 1: at this point? Ah, that's a good question. So um m,

1035
00:56:15,480 --> 00:56:18,360
Speaker 1: I I'm really conservative about how long we've been hunting

1036
00:56:18,400 --> 00:56:21,560
Speaker 1: in the sense that I want to see the technology

1037
00:56:22,080 --> 00:56:25,960
Speaker 1: that that to me absolutely screams we are definitely hunting.

1038
00:56:26,400 --> 00:56:30,680
Speaker 1: The oldest um spear points that we see in the

1039
00:56:30,800 --> 00:56:33,480
Speaker 1: archaeological record are about half a million years old, so

1040
00:56:33,520 --> 00:56:36,279
Speaker 1: they're from a site called Katupan in South Africa, and

1041
00:56:36,400 --> 00:56:39,279
Speaker 1: the end of those spear points have impact damage on them.

1042
00:56:39,360 --> 00:56:41,640
Speaker 1: We know that those things were used to, like you know,

1043
00:56:42,120 --> 00:56:46,120
Speaker 1: to to hunt with. UM. So I think it's very

1044
00:56:46,200 --> 00:56:49,560
Speaker 1: possible that hunting with wooden tools, hunting with other tools

1045
00:56:49,600 --> 00:56:52,279
Speaker 1: that haven't been found happened before then. But but I

1046
00:56:52,560 --> 00:56:56,279
Speaker 1: like in my timeline half a million years ago is

1047
00:56:56,320 --> 00:56:59,200
Speaker 1: definitely something I can feel comfortable with. That's way that's

1048
00:56:59,239 --> 00:57:02,680
Speaker 1: more conservative i've heard in the past. Here at one point,

1049
00:57:02,760 --> 00:57:06,040
Speaker 1: I think one point six million. Well, well, so it's interesting.

1050
00:57:06,080 --> 00:57:07,960
Speaker 1: I mean, some of the research I did for my

1051
00:57:08,040 --> 00:57:11,160
Speaker 1: PhD was studying fossils from a site called Coopy for

1052
00:57:11,239 --> 00:57:13,759
Speaker 1: it in northern Kenya, and so I was looking at

1053
00:57:13,960 --> 00:57:16,640
Speaker 1: butchery marks on the animal fossils from a couple of

1054
00:57:16,720 --> 00:57:19,800
Speaker 1: excavations up there. And at that point this is for

1055
00:57:19,880 --> 00:57:23,880
Speaker 1: sure homeorectus, and they the homeorectus, looked like they were

1056
00:57:24,560 --> 00:57:27,120
Speaker 1: getting access to the best parts of animals. They were

1057
00:57:27,160 --> 00:57:29,800
Speaker 1: butchering big animals. They were getting like you know, they

1058
00:57:29,840 --> 00:57:33,040
Speaker 1: were have butchery marks on the ribs where usually evisceration

1059
00:57:33,080 --> 00:57:35,800
Speaker 1: happens by the predators first, they're not scavenging those. They

1060
00:57:35,840 --> 00:57:38,560
Speaker 1: have butchery marks on the media's parts of bones. I

1061
00:57:38,680 --> 00:57:42,520
Speaker 1: wouldn't necessarily call that hunting. I call that early access there. Somehow,

1062
00:57:42,560 --> 00:57:44,880
Speaker 1: I don't think they're taking those animals down, but I

1063
00:57:44,960 --> 00:57:47,320
Speaker 1: think they're getting there soon after they die. So I

1064
00:57:47,360 --> 00:57:50,240
Speaker 1: think that's a nuance that would maybe, you know, maybe

1065
00:57:50,320 --> 00:57:54,560
Speaker 1: that's why I wouldn't call that hunting. Yeah, animal exactly

1066
00:57:56,240 --> 00:57:58,520
Speaker 1: are they're chasing a predator off of a kill, you know,

1067
00:57:58,720 --> 00:58:02,000
Speaker 1: or exactly or you know they're you know, maybe they're

1068
00:58:02,080 --> 00:58:04,200
Speaker 1: using rocks or something to knock down these big animals.

1069
00:58:04,240 --> 00:58:06,560
Speaker 1: I don't know how they do that, but maybe they could. Um.

1070
00:58:06,840 --> 00:58:09,520
Speaker 1: But yeah, so I think they're they are getting early

1071
00:58:09,640 --> 00:58:11,840
Speaker 1: access to these animals and they're able to sort of

1072
00:58:11,960 --> 00:58:15,520
Speaker 1: control the carcasses, um not have predators come in and

1073
00:58:15,720 --> 00:58:18,560
Speaker 1: chase them off. And so this all kind of comes

1074
00:58:18,600 --> 00:58:20,560
Speaker 1: to a head with the question that I know you'll

1075
00:58:20,600 --> 00:58:24,600
Speaker 1: be like, well, I'm working on it. I'm here every day.

1076
00:58:24,640 --> 00:58:28,320
Speaker 1: I'm working on it. That the the acceleration or that

1077
00:58:28,440 --> 00:58:30,400
Speaker 1: like kind of maybe the Bell curve and brain growth,

1078
00:58:30,440 --> 00:58:33,919
Speaker 1: however you want to describe it. There's our diet are

1079
00:58:34,480 --> 00:58:38,840
Speaker 1: like our social leaps that we're making forward, Like we're

1080
00:58:39,040 --> 00:58:42,280
Speaker 1: developing tools and now we're eating cooked meat and all

1081
00:58:42,320 --> 00:58:44,240
Speaker 1: these things that are happening within this kind of like

1082
00:58:44,320 --> 00:58:48,320
Speaker 1: five thousand year span. Right. If we're saying you can

1083
00:58:48,960 --> 00:58:52,400
Speaker 1: put evidence of hunting at five years, evidence of fire

1084
00:58:52,520 --> 00:58:56,240
Speaker 1: like maybe eight hundred thousand years million, and then the

1085
00:58:56,280 --> 00:58:59,760
Speaker 1: brain grows out a million. What's happening in this in

1086
00:59:00,080 --> 00:59:02,560
Speaker 1: this kind of very important five or thousand years because

1087
00:59:02,560 --> 00:59:04,360
Speaker 1: prior to that we're really talking about million years here,

1088
00:59:04,480 --> 00:59:07,160
Speaker 1: million years there. Now we're talking about a shorter period

1089
00:59:07,160 --> 00:59:09,840
Speaker 1: of time in which we can really analyze what's going down. Yeah,

1090
00:59:09,920 --> 00:59:12,400
Speaker 1: So it's a good question. And and whether all of

1091
00:59:12,600 --> 00:59:15,200
Speaker 1: these different things are coming together at the same time

1092
00:59:15,360 --> 00:59:17,920
Speaker 1: or not, whether there are other factors that are important,

1093
00:59:18,000 --> 00:59:21,360
Speaker 1: like maybe there's increased slow increases in population size at

1094
00:59:21,400 --> 00:59:25,600
Speaker 1: this point. Um, you know, starting almost two million years ago,

1095
00:59:25,640 --> 00:59:28,240
Speaker 1: early humans are migrating out of Africa into Asia, so

1096
00:59:28,760 --> 00:59:30,920
Speaker 1: you know, there may have been a component of encountering

1097
00:59:31,000 --> 00:59:35,320
Speaker 1: new environments, new plants, new animals that they could potentially eat. Um.

1098
00:59:35,480 --> 00:59:38,040
Speaker 1: So I think it's I think there were there. There's

1099
00:59:38,080 --> 00:59:40,400
Speaker 1: even more factors to think about than even the ones

1100
00:59:40,440 --> 00:59:44,000
Speaker 1: we've been talking about. Is there How do you guys

1101
00:59:44,080 --> 00:59:46,400
Speaker 1: when you're when you're looking at this in your daily

1102
00:59:46,560 --> 00:59:48,320
Speaker 1: I think we should get to exactly how you look

1103
00:59:48,360 --> 00:59:51,640
Speaker 1: at bones and and how you're coming up A lot

1104
00:59:51,720 --> 00:59:54,800
Speaker 1: of this, but in your day to day work, how

1105
00:59:54,840 --> 00:59:58,400
Speaker 1: are you moving these ideas forward? How you learning more? Yeah?

1106
00:59:58,520 --> 01:00:00,520
Speaker 1: So there's there's a couple of things. One is that

1107
01:00:00,680 --> 01:00:03,280
Speaker 1: we can go dig up more fossils that have butchery marks.

1108
01:00:03,320 --> 01:00:05,240
Speaker 1: I think that's hugely important and it's a fun thing

1109
01:00:05,280 --> 01:00:08,800
Speaker 1: to do. We can go back and re study collections

1110
01:00:09,400 --> 01:00:12,400
Speaker 1: where people haven't actually looked at them for butchery marks yet.

1111
01:00:12,440 --> 01:00:15,400
Speaker 1: So I'm doing some of that as well. Um. We

1112
01:00:15,520 --> 01:00:18,520
Speaker 1: can also do ex butchery experiments. Um, so we can

1113
01:00:18,920 --> 01:00:21,760
Speaker 1: make replica stone tools, like the kinds of tools that

1114
01:00:21,920 --> 01:00:24,640
Speaker 1: early humans used. We can use them to butcher animals,

1115
01:00:24,720 --> 01:00:27,840
Speaker 1: and we can, like scientists do, we can change variable

1116
01:00:27,960 --> 01:00:30,880
Speaker 1: and see how that changes an outcome. So I have

1117
01:00:31,040 --> 01:00:34,280
Speaker 1: done butchery experiments on deer where we are changing the

1118
01:00:34,400 --> 01:00:36,400
Speaker 1: kind of rock that the tools are made from, or

1119
01:00:36,480 --> 01:00:39,800
Speaker 1: we're changing actually the expertise of the butcher or we

1120
01:00:40,120 --> 01:00:42,480
Speaker 1: is an expert butcher butchering your animal, or is a

1121
01:00:42,600 --> 01:00:45,000
Speaker 1: novice butcher butchering your animal? What does that mean for

1122
01:00:45,120 --> 01:00:46,840
Speaker 1: where the cut marks end up? What does that mean

1123
01:00:46,920 --> 01:00:48,840
Speaker 1: for how many cut marks there are? Can we look

1124
01:00:48,880 --> 01:00:51,680
Speaker 1: at something like expertise in the fossil record? I was

1125
01:00:51,720 --> 01:00:54,160
Speaker 1: actually really excited about that experiment, and it turned out

1126
01:00:54,200 --> 01:00:57,600
Speaker 1: that there was not no statistical difference between the butchery

1127
01:00:57,680 --> 01:01:00,160
Speaker 1: marks made by the expert and the novice butcher. Um.

1128
01:01:00,320 --> 01:01:01,840
Speaker 1: I can tell you in a moner sense, there would

1129
01:01:01,840 --> 01:01:04,400
Speaker 1: be well, yes, And you know, I was surprised because

1130
01:01:04,520 --> 01:01:07,760
Speaker 1: as watching I, I UM worked with a wonderful grad

1131
01:01:07,840 --> 01:01:10,080
Speaker 1: student from the UK named Charlie Higson on this project.

1132
01:01:10,120 --> 01:01:12,280
Speaker 1: It was his master's project, and he was the novice butcher.

1133
01:01:12,360 --> 01:01:15,280
Speaker 1: He was a vegetarian and had not butchered anything before. UM,

1134
01:01:15,400 --> 01:01:19,000
Speaker 1: and he was really um game, he was great, UM,

1135
01:01:19,240 --> 01:01:20,840
Speaker 1: but he didn't know what the heck he was doing

1136
01:01:20,920 --> 01:01:23,280
Speaker 1: when he started off. And but interestingly, over the course

1137
01:01:23,280 --> 01:01:24,880
Speaker 1: of a couple of hours is actually this was a

1138
01:01:25,240 --> 01:01:28,600
Speaker 1: butchering domestic pigs. Um, he kind of figured it out.

1139
01:01:28,680 --> 01:01:30,640
Speaker 1: And so kind of watching him figure out, Oh, I

1140
01:01:30,720 --> 01:01:32,560
Speaker 1: can actually like put my hand under a muscle and

1141
01:01:32,600 --> 01:01:34,520
Speaker 1: pull it off, and I can figure out where the

1142
01:01:34,600 --> 01:01:36,880
Speaker 1: muscle insertion points aren't cut there instead of just like

1143
01:01:37,000 --> 01:01:41,320
Speaker 1: whacking away aimlessly. So UM, that's that That's seems to

1144
01:01:41,400 --> 01:01:44,360
Speaker 1: me is very natural, like blunt dissection of you know,

1145
01:01:44,520 --> 01:01:46,680
Speaker 1: the back leg of a deer. It's like look at

1146
01:01:46,720 --> 01:01:49,640
Speaker 1: the muscle groups, look where the lines of sinew and

1147
01:01:49,840 --> 01:01:53,200
Speaker 1: and tissue are, and pull him apart and just cut

1148
01:01:53,240 --> 01:01:57,040
Speaker 1: away the connective and then to go um. I imagine

1149
01:01:57,080 --> 01:01:59,960
Speaker 1: that that our early st ancestors were looking at the

1150
01:02:00,040 --> 01:02:01,920
Speaker 1: same kind of thing like well, and especially if this

1151
01:02:02,080 --> 01:02:03,840
Speaker 1: is if they were spending a lot of their time

1152
01:02:03,920 --> 01:02:07,360
Speaker 1: hunting and eating these animals. And if you know, if

1153
01:02:07,520 --> 01:02:10,000
Speaker 1: we if our knife dolls, we just go sharpen it.

1154
01:02:10,160 --> 01:02:12,960
Speaker 1: And so you know, if you have stone tools that

1155
01:02:13,000 --> 01:02:14,840
Speaker 1: you're working on, you can sharpen them in a sense.

1156
01:02:14,920 --> 01:02:17,680
Speaker 1: But they may have been even more interested in kind

1157
01:02:17,720 --> 01:02:20,600
Speaker 1: of protecting the edges of their stone tools and not

1158
01:02:20,720 --> 01:02:22,880
Speaker 1: letting them get dull or maybe not, because there were

1159
01:02:22,880 --> 01:02:26,080
Speaker 1: stone tools all over the place, So maybe I don't know. Yeah,

1160
01:02:26,080 --> 01:02:28,160
Speaker 1: I mean there's lots of there's lots of claims out there,

1161
01:02:28,320 --> 01:02:30,600
Speaker 1: the paleo diet claims and all the things we've kind

1162
01:02:30,600 --> 01:02:33,160
Speaker 1: of talked about, and we were discussing earlier kind of

1163
01:02:33,200 --> 01:02:36,240
Speaker 1: the polls of this, which is the vegan folks or

1164
01:02:36,320 --> 01:02:41,400
Speaker 1: vegetarian folks were trying to disassociate the importance of meat

1165
01:02:41,520 --> 01:02:43,520
Speaker 1: or trying to lessen it a little bit and trying

1166
01:02:43,560 --> 01:02:46,080
Speaker 1: to move away from eating meat, and then you have

1167
01:02:46,320 --> 01:02:50,360
Speaker 1: the paleo diet. Folks are trying to over dramatize or

1168
01:02:50,680 --> 01:02:53,560
Speaker 1: over specialize our diets and say that we ate large

1169
01:02:53,560 --> 01:02:55,200
Speaker 1: amounts of meat. I've read a lot of what you

1170
01:02:55,280 --> 01:02:57,360
Speaker 1: say about this, But what do you think about that?

1171
01:02:58,120 --> 01:03:00,560
Speaker 1: Did we did our ancestors eat such large amounts of

1172
01:03:00,600 --> 01:03:03,480
Speaker 1: meat that accelerated brain growth and then brains got figured

1173
01:03:03,480 --> 01:03:05,880
Speaker 1: and we and then hunting and that made us human, right,

1174
01:03:06,120 --> 01:03:09,480
Speaker 1: and then hunting helped us develop socially, help us develop

1175
01:03:09,560 --> 01:03:12,440
Speaker 1: a ways of communicating with each other, helped us develop

1176
01:03:12,960 --> 01:03:15,520
Speaker 1: hierarchies and things that never were there before. So where

1177
01:03:15,560 --> 01:03:18,120
Speaker 1: do you stand on all of that? So you know,

1178
01:03:18,480 --> 01:03:21,560
Speaker 1: I am not an end member type person. I am

1179
01:03:21,680 --> 01:03:24,840
Speaker 1: the middle of the ground type person, mostly because I think,

1180
01:03:25,640 --> 01:03:27,240
Speaker 1: you know, when I look at the evidence that we have,

1181
01:03:27,440 --> 01:03:29,920
Speaker 1: I'm like, I don't actually think we have enough evidence

1182
01:03:30,000 --> 01:03:32,320
Speaker 1: to look at things like the proportion of meat in

1183
01:03:32,360 --> 01:03:34,479
Speaker 1: the diet and how important it was it was there?

1184
01:03:35,160 --> 01:03:38,919
Speaker 1: Um I. The other thing is that you know people

1185
01:03:38,960 --> 01:03:42,240
Speaker 1: who want to say, like the paleo diet was this? Okay, again,

1186
01:03:42,440 --> 01:03:44,720
Speaker 1: what paleo diet? What people who were talking about let's

1187
01:03:44,720 --> 01:03:47,720
Speaker 1: look at people today. I mean, you know, modern even

1188
01:03:47,800 --> 01:03:52,040
Speaker 1: just modern forgers, eat incredibly varied diets, depending on where

1189
01:03:52,120 --> 01:03:54,880
Speaker 1: they live, what's in season, what's in front of them, UM.

1190
01:03:55,120 --> 01:03:58,160
Speaker 1: And so I don't think we can characterize any kind

1191
01:03:58,240 --> 01:04:03,880
Speaker 1: of ideal ancestral diet in you know, during whatever time

1192
01:04:04,000 --> 01:04:06,840
Speaker 1: in which early humans were kind of living in harmony

1193
01:04:06,960 --> 01:04:09,840
Speaker 1: with their environment. I think there's this real tendency to

1194
01:04:10,120 --> 01:04:14,480
Speaker 1: romanticize the past UM in that sense that said, I mean,

1195
01:04:14,800 --> 01:04:18,000
Speaker 1: you know, there there are commentaries about kind of modern

1196
01:04:18,040 --> 01:04:20,120
Speaker 1: industrial farming that I think are really important to pay

1197
01:04:20,160 --> 01:04:23,000
Speaker 1: attention to. And so I think if the if if

1198
01:04:23,240 --> 01:04:27,400
Speaker 1: UM conversations about how we should be eating UM are

1199
01:04:27,440 --> 01:04:29,680
Speaker 1: also starting with what's best for our health and the

1200
01:04:29,760 --> 01:04:32,280
Speaker 1: health of the planet, that's really important. But I think,

1201
01:04:32,400 --> 01:04:35,040
Speaker 1: you know, picking and choosing from some evidence from the

1202
01:04:35,080 --> 01:04:37,440
Speaker 1: past and saying, oh, well, because our ancestors in X,

1203
01:04:37,600 --> 01:04:40,480
Speaker 1: that's the way we should live. Maybe not necessarily. Yeah,

1204
01:04:40,480 --> 01:04:43,000
Speaker 1: And as during that time, when we're talking about you know,

1205
01:04:43,040 --> 01:04:49,560
Speaker 1: eighth years, two years, our environments become unpredictable. We change landscapes,

1206
01:04:49,640 --> 01:04:53,440
Speaker 1: we were moving around the world, and environments have always

1207
01:04:53,480 --> 01:04:56,080
Speaker 1: been unpredictable. Climates have always been changing. There was no

1208
01:04:56,360 --> 01:04:59,520
Speaker 1: sort of stable state at which we should um kind

1209
01:04:59,520 --> 01:05:01,600
Speaker 1: of hark and to go back to. So I think

1210
01:05:01,720 --> 01:05:03,320
Speaker 1: we have to be you know, in some sense it

1211
01:05:03,400 --> 01:05:08,360
Speaker 1: is realistic about diets today um and sustainability UM. But

1212
01:05:08,480 --> 01:05:11,760
Speaker 1: I also think that we you know, there there there

1213
01:05:11,960 --> 01:05:15,320
Speaker 1: wasn't some idyllic point in the past that that we

1214
01:05:15,440 --> 01:05:18,840
Speaker 1: should strive to go back to. So, especially because there

1215
01:05:18,840 --> 01:05:20,680
Speaker 1: were different kinds of early humans around. Like I said,

1216
01:05:20,680 --> 01:05:23,160
Speaker 1: there were Neanderthals who probably ate more meat than any

1217
01:05:23,240 --> 01:05:26,000
Speaker 1: other species. They're extinct. Um, you know, do we want

1218
01:05:26,000 --> 01:05:27,720
Speaker 1: to emulate that? I mean, I'm being a little bit.

1219
01:05:27,880 --> 01:05:29,680
Speaker 1: I'm joking a little bit, but you know, we should

1220
01:05:29,840 --> 01:05:31,960
Speaker 1: think about that. And I've been looking into this a

1221
01:05:32,040 --> 01:05:35,600
Speaker 1: lot recently, and it just it comes back to being

1222
01:05:35,680 --> 01:05:39,920
Speaker 1: omnivorous and like also being practical and pragmatic about what

1223
01:05:40,040 --> 01:05:43,320
Speaker 1: we're saying here, because you always read this and then

1224
01:05:43,360 --> 01:05:45,640
Speaker 1: it becomes dogma, right, it becomes something that we all

1225
01:05:45,840 --> 01:05:49,479
Speaker 1: meat is bad, cholesterol is bad. You know, the vegan

1226
01:05:49,560 --> 01:05:51,600
Speaker 1: diet is great, Let's eat all meat. There was a

1227
01:05:51,640 --> 01:05:53,840
Speaker 1: guy who had autoimmune disease and get cured by only

1228
01:05:53,880 --> 01:05:56,080
Speaker 1: eating meat. So therefore, it's good for everybody. I mean.

1229
01:05:56,120 --> 01:05:58,400
Speaker 1: The other thing is that moderny, you know, we are

1230
01:05:58,480 --> 01:06:01,040
Speaker 1: incredibly you know, we have we have sort of low

1231
01:06:01,160 --> 01:06:04,720
Speaker 1: genetic diversity, surprisingly for modern humans. But we're we're different

1232
01:06:04,800 --> 01:06:08,360
Speaker 1: people and so um, depending on our kind of you know,

1233
01:06:08,640 --> 01:06:12,480
Speaker 1: areas of origin and our ancestry, we have different adaptations

1234
01:06:12,520 --> 01:06:15,280
Speaker 1: and different mutations to be able to digest different kinds

1235
01:06:15,280 --> 01:06:17,080
Speaker 1: of food. So I think we also have to keep

1236
01:06:17,160 --> 01:06:20,040
Speaker 1: that in mind as we think about not prescribing kind

1237
01:06:20,080 --> 01:06:22,400
Speaker 1: of a single diet for every human on the planet.

1238
01:06:22,640 --> 01:06:24,600
Speaker 1: I also think, you know, there's a component of this.

1239
01:06:24,800 --> 01:06:27,080
Speaker 1: I do research in a lot of foreign countries, and

1240
01:06:27,200 --> 01:06:31,520
Speaker 1: I think the idea of like asking people to exclude certain,

1241
01:06:31,800 --> 01:06:33,880
Speaker 1: you know, types of food from their diet because it's

1242
01:06:33,920 --> 01:06:36,920
Speaker 1: health there is maybe just unrealistic to folks living in

1243
01:06:36,920 --> 01:06:38,920
Speaker 1: a lot of places in the world. Yeah, there's a

1244
01:06:38,960 --> 01:06:41,080
Speaker 1: lot of a lot of this is some first world

1245
01:06:41,160 --> 01:06:44,840
Speaker 1: that absolutely absolutely Yeah, a lot of things that issue

1246
01:06:44,880 --> 01:06:49,720
Speaker 1: a first world But do you feel tracing back our ancestry.

1247
01:06:51,000 --> 01:06:55,840
Speaker 1: I would love to believe that hunting was this giant

1248
01:06:55,960 --> 01:06:58,640
Speaker 1: lead forward and like number one on the list of

1249
01:06:58,760 --> 01:07:04,480
Speaker 1: evolutionary drivers. But there's also agriculture there's also domestication of

1250
01:07:04,560 --> 01:07:07,440
Speaker 1: animals that that happened more like twelve thousand years ago

1251
01:07:07,920 --> 01:07:10,440
Speaker 1: rather than so there is I mean, obviously, we know

1252
01:07:10,520 --> 01:07:13,200
Speaker 1: that hunting has been a part of our humanity for

1253
01:07:13,320 --> 01:07:16,200
Speaker 1: longer than some of these other things. We don't be

1254
01:07:16,240 --> 01:07:20,160
Speaker 1: agriculture in domestication, agree that hunting. Hunting has been part

1255
01:07:20,200 --> 01:07:23,680
Speaker 1: of our evolutionary history from for much longer than agriculture

1256
01:07:23,680 --> 01:07:27,520
Speaker 1: and investication. Agriculture and domestication unfortunately, probably had a bigger

1257
01:07:27,600 --> 01:07:30,520
Speaker 1: impact on our evolutionary history. And I say unfortunately because

1258
01:07:30,560 --> 01:07:34,520
Speaker 1: that impact wasn't always positive um, neither for us nor

1259
01:07:34,640 --> 01:07:38,440
Speaker 1: for the planet UM. And the fact that we rely

1260
01:07:38,880 --> 01:07:43,000
Speaker 1: most of us rely on so few highly domesticated foods

1261
01:07:43,120 --> 01:07:47,080
Speaker 1: is not necessarily like a really good strategy um from

1262
01:07:47,480 --> 01:07:50,560
Speaker 1: you know, from you know, economic and And it strikes

1263
01:07:50,600 --> 01:07:52,880
Speaker 1: me if you laid out how we currently eat our

1264
01:07:52,920 --> 01:07:55,440
Speaker 1: current American diet, how the food comes to our plates,

1265
01:07:55,480 --> 01:07:58,080
Speaker 1: how gos in our mouth, how nutrient dense it is

1266
01:07:58,240 --> 01:08:01,200
Speaker 1: or isn't in this case, if you laid that out

1267
01:08:02,560 --> 01:08:04,600
Speaker 1: devoid of all the other factors of where we are

1268
01:08:04,640 --> 01:08:07,440
Speaker 1: in our our evolution, you say, well, that's not the

1269
01:08:07,520 --> 01:08:09,840
Speaker 1: right way to do it. There's no way that that's

1270
01:08:09,920 --> 01:08:12,400
Speaker 1: right based on everything that we know. Yeah, and and

1271
01:08:12,680 --> 01:08:14,800
Speaker 1: I mean I think you know, but but one benefit

1272
01:08:14,880 --> 01:08:16,640
Speaker 1: that we have in the US is that we have

1273
01:08:17,560 --> 01:08:19,000
Speaker 1: a lot of us, not all of us, have a

1274
01:08:19,040 --> 01:08:21,640
Speaker 1: lot of food choices. And so I think that you know,

1275
01:08:21,760 --> 01:08:26,280
Speaker 1: the ability to think, um, figure out what our priorities

1276
01:08:26,320 --> 01:08:29,040
Speaker 1: are for modern diets and make good choices, we were

1277
01:08:29,080 --> 01:08:31,040
Speaker 1: pretty privileged in this country to be able to do

1278
01:08:31,160 --> 01:08:32,920
Speaker 1: that a lot of us, not all of us. Would

1279
01:08:32,960 --> 01:08:34,439
Speaker 1: it be Would it be accurate to say then that

1280
01:08:34,600 --> 01:08:37,559
Speaker 1: that this kind of story of the evolution of our

1281
01:08:37,600 --> 01:08:39,799
Speaker 1: meat eating in and of our diet is about choices,

1282
01:08:39,880 --> 01:08:42,439
Speaker 1: Like the more that we learn we were able to choose,

1283
01:08:42,560 --> 01:08:44,320
Speaker 1: I think that's a that's a great way to put it.

1284
01:08:44,439 --> 01:08:47,960
Speaker 1: And and sometimes I one of my biggest frustrations with

1285
01:08:48,080 --> 01:08:50,120
Speaker 1: sort of the paleo diet movement is that a lot

1286
01:08:50,200 --> 01:08:53,800
Speaker 1: of it is about excluding food like don't eat you know,

1287
01:08:54,040 --> 01:08:59,280
Speaker 1: legumes or starchy vegetables or dairy or you know this

1288
01:08:59,600 --> 01:09:02,200
Speaker 1: because our ancestors didn't eat it. I'm thinking really, because

1289
01:09:02,240 --> 01:09:04,080
Speaker 1: I don't think a million years ago somebody would have

1290
01:09:04,120 --> 01:09:06,240
Speaker 1: looked at food that would have been edible and wet. No,

1291
01:09:06,320 --> 01:09:08,720
Speaker 1: I'm not going to eat that. I mean, you know,

1292
01:09:08,920 --> 01:09:13,879
Speaker 1: if you really you just eat around everything. Yeah, exactly,

1293
01:09:14,680 --> 01:09:17,640
Speaker 1: I'll eat that exactly. And that's maybe we'll start. We

1294
01:09:17,720 --> 01:09:20,639
Speaker 1: can start a new thing called just like the choice diet,

1295
01:09:20,680 --> 01:09:23,759
Speaker 1: where you're just going choices, eat all the food your choices,

1296
01:09:23,840 --> 01:09:26,120
Speaker 1: eat whatever is in front of you. And that just

1297
01:09:26,240 --> 01:09:28,360
Speaker 1: goes back to where this argument is really just based

1298
01:09:28,400 --> 01:09:31,720
Speaker 1: on our one our intellectual ability now, but our our

1299
01:09:31,800 --> 01:09:34,840
Speaker 1: ability to have these choices and look around and be

1300
01:09:34,920 --> 01:09:37,360
Speaker 1: able to say I would like to only eat vegetables exactly,

1301
01:09:37,400 --> 01:09:39,760
Speaker 1: and I you know, I mean, and I joke about

1302
01:09:39,800 --> 01:09:42,679
Speaker 1: that sometimes, but I think some of this is about, well,

1303
01:09:43,080 --> 01:09:45,360
Speaker 1: you know, our ancestors didn't eat X, y Z, they

1304
01:09:45,360 --> 01:09:48,000
Speaker 1: didn't eat grains, they didn't eat this, and and you

1305
01:09:48,080 --> 01:09:51,160
Speaker 1: know we have not had enough time to adapt to

1306
01:09:51,280 --> 01:09:54,960
Speaker 1: those foods. And to that, I say, uh, um, so

1307
01:09:55,040 --> 01:09:59,360
Speaker 1: there's really good evidence, I mean, humans can evolve pretty quickly. Um.

1308
01:10:00,160 --> 01:10:02,000
Speaker 1: The fact that about a third of us on the

1309
01:10:02,080 --> 01:10:05,160
Speaker 1: planet today can digest lactose or milk sugar as an adult.

1310
01:10:05,280 --> 01:10:08,599
Speaker 1: My favorite example of human evolution. You know, around seven

1311
01:10:08,640 --> 01:10:10,840
Speaker 1: thousand years ago, not a single person on the planet

1312
01:10:10,920 --> 01:10:13,439
Speaker 1: could digest milk after the age of you know, two

1313
01:10:13,560 --> 01:10:15,400
Speaker 1: or three, which is kind of when traditional weaning is.

1314
01:10:15,479 --> 01:10:16,880
Speaker 1: I just heard about this for the first time, like

1315
01:10:16,880 --> 01:10:18,760
Speaker 1: two weeks. I'm like, why are we talking about this?

1316
01:10:19,080 --> 01:10:21,880
Speaker 1: I I think this is hugely important and so you know,

1317
01:10:22,320 --> 01:10:26,800
Speaker 1: and there were multiple different mutations in multiple populations of

1318
01:10:27,280 --> 01:10:32,120
Speaker 1: UM people who basically domesticated dairy animals UM, and that

1319
01:10:32,439 --> 01:10:35,759
Speaker 1: caused the ability to a humans to digest milk as adults.

1320
01:10:36,040 --> 01:10:38,720
Speaker 1: Milk is a great resource. It has protein, it has fat,

1321
01:10:38,840 --> 01:10:42,280
Speaker 1: it is a clean liquid. If you're moving into a

1322
01:10:42,360 --> 01:10:45,920
Speaker 1: new environment and you maybe all your crops fail, but

1323
01:10:46,040 --> 01:10:49,840
Speaker 1: you can still drink milk um. So, and there's also

1324
01:10:49,920 --> 01:10:53,400
Speaker 1: evidence that people have UM there are some populations that

1325
01:10:53,520 --> 01:10:56,600
Speaker 1: have been eating a higher starch diet that actually have

1326
01:10:57,280 --> 01:11:00,680
Speaker 1: genetic adaptations to be able to digest starch better. So

1327
01:11:00,760 --> 01:11:03,160
Speaker 1: the idea that like modern humans, oh, we can't you know,

1328
01:11:03,320 --> 01:11:05,320
Speaker 1: there's this mismatch and we haven't had enough time to

1329
01:11:05,400 --> 01:11:07,960
Speaker 1: adapt to eating these foods. I think it's hogwash. Yeah,

1330
01:11:08,040 --> 01:11:09,840
Speaker 1: well I think it is too. And the people are

1331
01:11:09,880 --> 01:11:12,160
Speaker 1: always they want to have the prescription right, they want

1332
01:11:12,200 --> 01:11:14,200
Speaker 1: to tell you exactly, eat this and this and this,

1333
01:11:14,320 --> 01:11:15,880
Speaker 1: and you will be healthy. I mean, if you watch

1334
01:11:15,920 --> 01:11:19,639
Speaker 1: the Game Changers documentary, it would seem as if it's

1335
01:11:19,640 --> 01:11:21,400
Speaker 1: not not as if it was seem as if they

1336
01:11:21,479 --> 01:11:25,320
Speaker 1: were saying basically, the meat is poison. That is that

1337
01:11:25,479 --> 01:11:28,839
Speaker 1: is what they are there. They never say it out right. Yeah. Interesting.

1338
01:11:29,000 --> 01:11:31,519
Speaker 1: All the evidence presented is like meat is bad for you,

1339
01:11:31,720 --> 01:11:34,760
Speaker 1: meat is you know. I there's examples of I I

1340
01:11:34,840 --> 01:11:37,640
Speaker 1: went vegetarian, I went vegan and I got better erections,

1341
01:11:37,640 --> 01:11:40,519
Speaker 1: and I it fixed my joints and it did this

1342
01:11:40,680 --> 01:11:42,840
Speaker 1: and that. Like wow, I mean there's all you know,

1343
01:11:42,960 --> 01:11:45,799
Speaker 1: there's lots of anecdotal evidence in all kinds of directions,

1344
01:11:46,000 --> 01:11:49,280
Speaker 1: and I think, you know, part of what's tough about making, um,

1345
01:11:49,920 --> 01:11:53,200
Speaker 1: you know, wide sweeping statements about nutrition is that a

1346
01:11:53,320 --> 01:11:56,320
Speaker 1: lot of the studies have been done with small numbers

1347
01:11:56,320 --> 01:11:59,840
Speaker 1: of people. A lot of them are self reporting studies. UM. You.

1348
01:12:00,120 --> 01:12:01,880
Speaker 1: I think it would be tough to be a nutritionist

1349
01:12:01,960 --> 01:12:06,040
Speaker 1: today because of all the like anecdotal evidence out there

1350
01:12:06,200 --> 01:12:09,880
Speaker 1: and and even the good scientific evidence UM sometimes can

1351
01:12:09,920 --> 01:12:13,200
Speaker 1: be contradictory because I think people are complex, um and

1352
01:12:13,320 --> 01:12:15,280
Speaker 1: where our bodies are not always going to respond in

1353
01:12:15,360 --> 01:12:17,320
Speaker 1: the same way. I mean, again you know, caveat. I'm

1354
01:12:17,320 --> 01:12:20,680
Speaker 1: not a nutritionist, um, but I do think that the

1355
01:12:20,800 --> 01:12:23,760
Speaker 1: idea that like there is one end all be all

1356
01:12:23,840 --> 01:12:26,439
Speaker 1: that will fix all of your problems, all of your

1357
01:12:26,479 --> 01:12:28,800
Speaker 1: health issues. I mean, the other thing that I will

1358
01:12:28,840 --> 01:12:30,880
Speaker 1: often say, if you know, people are asking me, which

1359
01:12:30,920 --> 01:12:33,439
Speaker 1: they shouldn't necessarily for dietary advice, is that like, what

1360
01:12:33,560 --> 01:12:36,120
Speaker 1: are your priorities? Is your Are you trying to eat

1361
01:12:36,160 --> 01:12:38,680
Speaker 1: for cardiovascular health? Are you trying to eat for longevity,

1362
01:12:38,760 --> 01:12:40,640
Speaker 1: or you're trying to eat because you have a like

1363
01:12:40,800 --> 01:12:44,120
Speaker 1: autoimmune issue or your So you know, how can there

1364
01:12:44,160 --> 01:12:46,960
Speaker 1: possibly be one diet that you know it is good

1365
01:12:47,000 --> 01:12:49,000
Speaker 1: for everybody? Well, I'm part of like to go to

1366
01:12:49,120 --> 01:12:51,120
Speaker 1: that point. Part of the reason why we're sitting here

1367
01:12:51,120 --> 01:12:52,800
Speaker 1: and part of the reason why it's relevant because people

1368
01:12:52,800 --> 01:12:55,599
Speaker 1: have subscribed ancestral diets as waste for us to get

1369
01:12:55,640 --> 01:12:58,400
Speaker 1: healthy and try to trace these lineages and ways that

1370
01:12:58,520 --> 01:13:02,320
Speaker 1: are really just dis genuous, and you know, hogwash is

1371
01:13:02,360 --> 01:13:04,960
Speaker 1: a good way to put it. You can always tell

1372
01:13:05,000 --> 01:13:07,320
Speaker 1: in somebody's full of ship. Yeah, you can always tell

1373
01:13:07,320 --> 01:13:09,800
Speaker 1: when somebody's full of shit, when they're when they're taking

1374
01:13:09,840 --> 01:13:11,840
Speaker 1: a very complex topic and trying to boil it down

1375
01:13:11,880 --> 01:13:14,760
Speaker 1: to something that's digestible in whether it's fact or in

1376
01:13:14,840 --> 01:13:18,080
Speaker 1: this case, an actual diet um. That's how I first

1377
01:13:18,520 --> 01:13:21,160
Speaker 1: started sniffing around the paleo dim Like wait a minute,

1378
01:13:21,720 --> 01:13:25,760
Speaker 1: so you're telling me there's no this doesn't seem like

1379
01:13:25,960 --> 01:13:28,840
Speaker 1: you thought this out at all, you know, And I think, yes,

1380
01:13:28,920 --> 01:13:31,960
Speaker 1: there's something to be able to kind of um, you know,

1381
01:13:32,160 --> 01:13:35,920
Speaker 1: break down complicated ideas and present them in a simple way.

1382
01:13:36,000 --> 01:13:38,360
Speaker 1: But I think doing it in a way that's like

1383
01:13:38,600 --> 01:13:41,599
Speaker 1: ignoring evidence or being disingenuous is like, that's not cool,

1384
01:13:41,600 --> 01:13:44,519
Speaker 1: and that's it's happening. It's happening a lot um and

1385
01:13:44,600 --> 01:13:46,719
Speaker 1: a lot of places, but especially with our food, because

1386
01:13:46,760 --> 01:13:50,000
Speaker 1: people want to be the prescribers, not the informers. And like,

1387
01:13:50,400 --> 01:13:52,360
Speaker 1: there's no, there's nothing about what you do here the

1388
01:13:52,400 --> 01:13:56,840
Speaker 1: Swithsonian or science or research that is biased. I mean,

1389
01:13:56,920 --> 01:14:01,639
Speaker 1: like you're you're flying to Kenya unearthing bones or watching

1390
01:14:02,000 --> 01:14:03,720
Speaker 1: we should talk about some of the things that you've

1391
01:14:03,760 --> 01:14:07,280
Speaker 1: done in that base, watching hyenas and lines take down

1392
01:14:07,360 --> 01:14:10,200
Speaker 1: zebras and then going collecting the bones later and examining

1393
01:14:10,240 --> 01:14:14,080
Speaker 1: them um for for for like the predatory behavior around

1394
01:14:14,120 --> 01:14:16,000
Speaker 1: this bones so you can then compare it to ancestral

1395
01:14:16,680 --> 01:14:18,640
Speaker 1: things that we find, fossils that we find. It's like

1396
01:14:18,800 --> 01:14:22,439
Speaker 1: that is that is just scientifics It's asking a question,

1397
01:14:22,560 --> 01:14:24,320
Speaker 1: it's looking for evidence. I mean, like I said before,

1398
01:14:24,360 --> 01:14:26,719
Speaker 1: you know, I did I did this butcher experiment looking

1399
01:14:26,760 --> 01:14:30,240
Speaker 1: to see I had a prediction that expertise of the

1400
01:14:30,360 --> 01:14:34,240
Speaker 1: butcher would have had some influence on you know, different

1401
01:14:34,280 --> 01:14:37,640
Speaker 1: variables of cut mark. That was incorrect. Um. And so

1402
01:14:38,040 --> 01:14:40,400
Speaker 1: you know that's still important to research and to publish

1403
01:14:40,439 --> 01:14:41,920
Speaker 1: and say like Nope, maybe we have to ask a

1404
01:14:41,960 --> 01:14:44,000
Speaker 1: different question. And so I think a big part of

1405
01:14:44,040 --> 01:14:47,719
Speaker 1: being a scientist, especially a scientist who studies the past,

1406
01:14:47,840 --> 01:14:50,679
Speaker 1: is trying to figure out what questions can you ask

1407
01:14:50,840 --> 01:14:54,479
Speaker 1: that you can actually find evidence for um. And then

1408
01:14:54,560 --> 01:14:57,479
Speaker 1: if you you know, whatever your answer is, your answer

1409
01:14:57,600 --> 01:14:59,519
Speaker 1: is interesting. So I think, you know, there's this idea

1410
01:14:59,560 --> 01:15:01,599
Speaker 1: that science drop they're trying to like prove their theory

1411
01:15:01,640 --> 01:15:04,960
Speaker 1: or their hypothesis. No, we're trying to just figure out, um,

1412
01:15:05,680 --> 01:15:12,680
Speaker 1: get a better version of what actually happened in the past. Version, right.

1413
01:15:12,720 --> 01:15:15,000
Speaker 1: And there's like modeling of behavior that goes on which

1414
01:15:15,040 --> 01:15:16,800
Speaker 1: just to say I work for three years on something

1415
01:15:16,840 --> 01:15:20,439
Speaker 1: that I found out it wasn't even worthy of six

1416
01:15:20,520 --> 01:15:22,479
Speaker 1: months or a month. But I did find out that

1417
01:15:22,560 --> 01:15:25,560
Speaker 1: I was wrong. And here's why exactly. I had a

1418
01:15:25,600 --> 01:15:27,479
Speaker 1: whole like, pardon my you know. One of my big

1419
01:15:27,600 --> 01:15:32,000
Speaker 1: dissertation questions was I I was UM. I thought that

1420
01:15:32,680 --> 01:15:36,120
Speaker 1: you could be able to tell the species of carnivore

1421
01:15:36,200 --> 01:15:39,360
Speaker 1: based on the size of tooth market make um, based

1422
01:15:39,400 --> 01:15:41,160
Speaker 1: on the size of tooth marks that it makes. And

1423
01:15:41,280 --> 01:15:43,840
Speaker 1: so because I work in Africa, the carnivores that I

1424
01:15:43,960 --> 01:15:48,759
Speaker 1: was studying were mostly lions, Hyena's leopards, cheetahs, um, jackals,

1425
01:15:48,800 --> 01:15:52,080
Speaker 1: things like that. And it turns out that that doesn't work. Um.

1426
01:15:52,200 --> 01:15:55,439
Speaker 1: It turns out that big carnivores will make big tooth marks,

1427
01:15:55,760 --> 01:15:59,320
Speaker 1: but um and small tooth marks, and the small carnivores

1428
01:15:59,360 --> 01:16:01,080
Speaker 1: make the small tooth mark. So maybe you can say

1429
01:16:01,120 --> 01:16:03,439
Speaker 1: something about a carnivore body size based on tooth marks,

1430
01:16:03,520 --> 01:16:05,840
Speaker 1: but I cannot look at an individual tooth mark and

1431
01:16:05,920 --> 01:16:09,280
Speaker 1: tell you who made it. Yeah, that was disappointing. UM, Yeah,

1432
01:16:09,320 --> 01:16:11,200
Speaker 1: I could you know? Um? And actually there was another

1433
01:16:11,240 --> 01:16:13,479
Speaker 1: research team that, as I was doing my dissertation, did

1434
01:16:13,560 --> 01:16:15,800
Speaker 1: a similar study and published that. And I was like Okay, yes,

1435
01:16:15,840 --> 01:16:18,040
Speaker 1: we're done, Like we found the same thing. So but

1436
01:16:18,200 --> 01:16:20,000
Speaker 1: the answer to the question, even if it's no, is

1437
01:16:20,040 --> 01:16:23,320
Speaker 1: important exactly, And I think that that's that's something that's

1438
01:16:23,400 --> 01:16:26,760
Speaker 1: that's really crucial to remember. And so Okay, that doesn't work.

1439
01:16:26,880 --> 01:16:28,240
Speaker 1: That means that we have to look at it in

1440
01:16:28,320 --> 01:16:30,120
Speaker 1: a different way or ask a slightly different right, So

1441
01:16:30,160 --> 01:16:32,120
Speaker 1: you're just eliminating that line of thinking so you can

1442
01:16:32,200 --> 01:16:34,080
Speaker 1: move on to them and then eventually you make an

1443
01:16:34,120 --> 01:16:36,760
Speaker 1: important discovery. You don't just like read a couple of

1444
01:16:36,840 --> 01:16:39,000
Speaker 1: books and look at a couple of things ago. Here's hey,

1445
01:16:39,280 --> 01:16:41,800
Speaker 1: here's the answer to everything. I got it exactly, And

1446
01:16:41,880 --> 01:16:44,040
Speaker 1: so that's I think why that's all of this. Well,

1447
01:16:44,200 --> 01:16:46,639
Speaker 1: so that's why what you do is is particularly interesting

1448
01:16:46,680 --> 01:16:49,000
Speaker 1: to me. And maybe it's a little bit sad because

1449
01:16:49,640 --> 01:16:53,519
Speaker 1: it's like it's just modeling behavior that we don't see

1450
01:16:53,560 --> 01:16:55,800
Speaker 1: in a lot of our popular culture. Well, you know,

1451
01:16:55,960 --> 01:16:59,280
Speaker 1: it's interesting. I think there's I'm I'm I'm getting really

1452
01:16:59,320 --> 01:17:02,439
Speaker 1: interested in so of science communication and public agent with science.

1453
01:17:02,479 --> 01:17:05,240
Speaker 1: And one of the things that that I see a

1454
01:17:05,320 --> 01:17:09,200
Speaker 1: lot is that people are skeptical of science, are uncomfortable

1455
01:17:09,200 --> 01:17:12,000
Speaker 1: about science because you know, they think that scientists change

1456
01:17:12,040 --> 01:17:14,200
Speaker 1: our minds all the time because one study says this,

1457
01:17:14,280 --> 01:17:18,080
Speaker 1: in another study says this, um, And for for people

1458
01:17:18,160 --> 01:17:20,200
Speaker 1: that feel much more comfortable with like, I want the

1459
01:17:20,280 --> 01:17:22,240
Speaker 1: answer and I want it not to change, that is

1460
01:17:22,320 --> 01:17:25,479
Speaker 1: unfortunately not how science works. Science builds on prior evidence.

1461
01:17:25,680 --> 01:17:29,559
Speaker 1: We investigate something, we find something different, maybe than other

1462
01:17:29,600 --> 01:17:34,200
Speaker 1: researchers have before. But as someone who studies human evolution,

1463
01:17:34,280 --> 01:17:37,640
Speaker 1: sort of the the major grand narrative don't tend to

1464
01:17:37,760 --> 01:17:40,120
Speaker 1: change that much. Um, you know, we know that like

1465
01:17:40,760 --> 01:17:43,360
Speaker 1: chimpanzees are our closest living relatives. We know that humans

1466
01:17:43,400 --> 01:17:45,479
Speaker 1: have been evolving for six million years. We know that

1467
01:17:46,080 --> 01:17:49,559
Speaker 1: you know, um, bipedalism came before tool use, came before

1468
01:17:49,600 --> 01:17:53,920
Speaker 1: increasing brain size, A lot of that stuff, like those milestones, um,

1469
01:17:54,040 --> 01:17:55,920
Speaker 1: the order of those miles. So we may shift the

1470
01:17:56,040 --> 01:17:58,519
Speaker 1: like exact date of when we see the earliest or

1471
01:17:58,720 --> 01:18:01,040
Speaker 1: latest evidence of something. We may add a species to

1472
01:18:01,120 --> 01:18:03,679
Speaker 1: the human family tree, but it doesn't like, it doesn't

1473
01:18:03,720 --> 01:18:06,519
Speaker 1: mean that everything we ever knew has sort of been

1474
01:18:06,520 --> 01:18:09,439
Speaker 1: turned on its head by one new discovery. Yeah, that's

1475
01:18:09,479 --> 01:18:12,280
Speaker 1: it builds on itself, right, And it totally makes sense

1476
01:18:12,320 --> 01:18:16,040
Speaker 1: to me, and I think we should talk about what

1477
01:18:16,200 --> 01:18:17,960
Speaker 1: you're not just super interested. You spent a lot of

1478
01:18:18,000 --> 01:18:21,519
Speaker 1: time look at the bones, but he didn't come up

1479
01:18:21,640 --> 01:18:24,040
Speaker 1: like as a bone enthusiast, right, you were like, you

1480
01:18:24,120 --> 01:18:26,000
Speaker 1: know what I like to do, Right, I'm just gonna

1481
01:18:26,040 --> 01:18:27,560
Speaker 1: stare at bones all day? So no, I mean, and

1482
01:18:27,680 --> 01:18:29,840
Speaker 1: I you know, I'm the questions that I'm interested in.

1483
01:18:30,080 --> 01:18:31,840
Speaker 1: I really want to know what people were doing in

1484
01:18:31,880 --> 01:18:33,240
Speaker 1: the past. I want to know what they were eating.

1485
01:18:33,280 --> 01:18:34,840
Speaker 1: I want to know where they were living. I want

1486
01:18:34,880 --> 01:18:37,000
Speaker 1: to know, like you know, I mean, I wanted a

1487
01:18:37,080 --> 01:18:38,880
Speaker 1: lot of things. I probably can't like what you know,

1488
01:18:39,080 --> 01:18:41,599
Speaker 1: what choices were they making and what factors were involved

1489
01:18:41,600 --> 01:18:44,799
Speaker 1: in those choices. But but again, what are the questions

1490
01:18:44,840 --> 01:18:46,600
Speaker 1: that I can ask that I can find evidence for?

1491
01:18:46,680 --> 01:18:50,200
Speaker 1: And so the questions that I'm interested are mostly around

1492
01:18:50,680 --> 01:18:53,560
Speaker 1: bones um or at least bones are the evidence that

1493
01:18:53,680 --> 01:18:55,680
Speaker 1: I can use to find the answers to most of

1494
01:18:55,720 --> 01:18:57,360
Speaker 1: those questions. Yeah, it's some means to an end. As

1495
01:18:57,360 --> 01:19:05,280
Speaker 1: I was thinking Aboubra bone, I'm like, why yeah, but

1496
01:19:05,400 --> 01:19:08,439
Speaker 1: that those bones are means to the end, like they're

1497
01:19:08,439 --> 01:19:12,000
Speaker 1: getting you along lines of answering. There's questions and so

1498
01:19:12,600 --> 01:19:14,519
Speaker 1: I guess to kind of wrap to try to wrap

1499
01:19:14,600 --> 01:19:15,880
Speaker 1: this up. We'll never be able to do that, but

1500
01:19:18,840 --> 01:19:20,960
Speaker 1: that's what that's what we were talking about earlier. If

1501
01:19:21,000 --> 01:19:23,280
Speaker 1: you want to, if I wanted to like extract and

1502
01:19:23,400 --> 01:19:25,479
Speaker 1: not distill this all down, we probably have to talk

1503
01:19:25,560 --> 01:19:29,360
Speaker 1: for like about ten podcasts worth. But I think to

1504
01:19:29,479 --> 01:19:32,120
Speaker 1: try to to wrap this up. You know, we've touched

1505
01:19:32,200 --> 01:19:35,680
Speaker 1: upon a lot of things, but important questions I think

1506
01:19:35,680 --> 01:19:37,160
Speaker 1: to a lot of people listening to this is like,

1507
01:19:38,000 --> 01:19:41,560
Speaker 1: where is meat eating sit on the importance of human evolution?

1508
01:19:41,880 --> 01:19:44,960
Speaker 1: Where does hunting sit then as a as a means

1509
01:19:45,000 --> 01:19:48,479
Speaker 1: of of getting that meat? Um? Because there's been a

1510
01:19:48,560 --> 01:19:51,880
Speaker 1: lot of wild claims about that. So we've kind of

1511
01:19:51,920 --> 01:19:53,840
Speaker 1: addressed that as much as I think we probably could.

1512
01:19:54,240 --> 01:19:57,679
Speaker 1: But what is what's the future of your work? Where

1513
01:19:57,760 --> 01:19:59,880
Speaker 1: can we go from here? What you know? How can

1514
01:20:00,000 --> 01:20:01,640
Speaker 1: we get better answer to these questions? Or how can

1515
01:20:01,680 --> 01:20:03,880
Speaker 1: we answer new questions like what are you focus? Yeah,

1516
01:20:04,280 --> 01:20:06,920
Speaker 1: so so again a couple of things. I'm I'm still

1517
01:20:07,840 --> 01:20:11,960
Speaker 1: um studying fossil collections to look for butchery marks on them. Um.

1518
01:20:12,080 --> 01:20:15,400
Speaker 1: And so when we have big collections that have butchery marks,

1519
01:20:15,479 --> 01:20:17,120
Speaker 1: we can look at things like, well, what animals are

1520
01:20:17,160 --> 01:20:19,560
Speaker 1: people butchering, and what animals were they not butchering, and

1521
01:20:19,680 --> 01:20:21,800
Speaker 1: what habitats for those animals living in and what can

1522
01:20:21,840 --> 01:20:24,000
Speaker 1: that tell us about what kind of habitats early humans

1523
01:20:24,040 --> 01:20:27,240
Speaker 1: were hanging out in. So I'm still going to continue

1524
01:20:27,280 --> 01:20:30,280
Speaker 1: to study fossil collections, still going to continue to UM

1525
01:20:30,920 --> 01:20:33,920
Speaker 1: do research doing butchery experiments UM to see if I

1526
01:20:33,960 --> 01:20:37,680
Speaker 1: can sort of refine some of our understanding about butchery behavior. UM.

1527
01:20:38,200 --> 01:20:41,599
Speaker 1: I'm I'm working now with a colleague of mine, Jennifer Parkinson,

1528
01:20:41,680 --> 01:20:44,519
Speaker 1: who works at UM University of San Diego, and we're

1529
01:20:44,600 --> 01:20:49,840
Speaker 1: studying a fossil collection in Texas that is has been

1530
01:20:49,880 --> 01:20:53,160
Speaker 1: interpreted as the remains of a saber tooth den So

1531
01:20:53,479 --> 01:20:55,680
Speaker 1: you know, I can study. I love working in the

1532
01:20:55,760 --> 01:20:59,439
Speaker 1: modern world. I am still do research in a place

1533
01:20:59,479 --> 01:21:03,040
Speaker 1: called a pet did a conservancy in central Kenya, and UM,

1534
01:21:03,360 --> 01:21:05,960
Speaker 1: you know, watching predators eat things and trying to understand

1535
01:21:06,080 --> 01:21:08,960
Speaker 1: all those patterns. But there are predators that were around

1536
01:21:09,000 --> 01:21:10,640
Speaker 1: in the past when early humans were eating meat that

1537
01:21:10,640 --> 01:21:13,000
Speaker 1: aren't around today, like saber tooth, and so the only

1538
01:21:13,040 --> 01:21:14,880
Speaker 1: way we're going to understand what it looks like when

1539
01:21:14,920 --> 01:21:17,120
Speaker 1: saber tooth chew on bones and maybe what it looks

1540
01:21:17,160 --> 01:21:19,280
Speaker 1: like when early humans are scavenging from saber tooth or

1541
01:21:19,320 --> 01:21:23,600
Speaker 1: to look at the remains of saber tooth dat um fossils.

1542
01:21:23,640 --> 01:21:26,800
Speaker 1: And so that's another kind of avenue that I'm interested in,

1543
01:21:26,960 --> 01:21:29,960
Speaker 1: Like can I'm still interested in trying to figure out

1544
01:21:30,160 --> 01:21:35,000
Speaker 1: can we can we document different chewing patterns left by

1545
01:21:35,000 --> 01:21:37,560
Speaker 1: different predators. It was a question I asked in my dissertation,

1546
01:21:38,080 --> 01:21:40,639
Speaker 1: you know, almost twenty years ago. It's a question I'm

1547
01:21:40,680 --> 01:21:43,000
Speaker 1: still asking and I'm where I'm still trying to refine

1548
01:21:43,040 --> 01:21:45,680
Speaker 1: those models. And how much during your time you do

1549
01:21:45,760 --> 01:21:49,000
Speaker 1: is how many years? Uh, you know, at least twenty

1550
01:21:49,080 --> 01:21:53,840
Speaker 1: years years? Yeah? Um, how much has yeah we go

1551
01:21:53,920 --> 01:21:55,680
Speaker 1: back twenty years ago. How much has what we know

1552
01:21:55,840 --> 01:21:59,439
Speaker 1: now changed in twenty years? Yeah? So so it's changed. Well,

1553
01:22:00,200 --> 01:22:02,000
Speaker 1: I was gonna say it's changed a lot in the

1554
01:22:02,080 --> 01:22:03,680
Speaker 1: sense that there's been a lot more evidence at it.

1555
01:22:03,760 --> 01:22:05,479
Speaker 1: So we have more sites at up butchery marks. We

1556
01:22:05,520 --> 01:22:09,200
Speaker 1: actually have better techniques for capturing things like the sizes

1557
01:22:09,240 --> 01:22:12,360
Speaker 1: and shapes of butchery marks and carnivore tooth marks. So

1558
01:22:12,920 --> 01:22:15,120
Speaker 1: you know, when I was doing my dissertation, I would

1559
01:22:15,160 --> 01:22:17,040
Speaker 1: make an impression of a tooth mark. I would measure

1560
01:22:17,080 --> 01:22:18,680
Speaker 1: it with a set of calipers, and I would give

1561
01:22:18,720 --> 01:22:20,760
Speaker 1: you a linear measurement. And now people are using like

1562
01:22:21,040 --> 01:22:24,960
Speaker 1: sophisticated high powered microscopes to get a three D shape

1563
01:22:25,000 --> 01:22:26,840
Speaker 1: of those carnivore tooth marks, and they're starting to be

1564
01:22:26,880 --> 01:22:29,840
Speaker 1: able to distinguish between different species. That's awesome. So we

1565
01:22:29,920 --> 01:22:32,360
Speaker 1: can use new tools and techniques, we can go back

1566
01:22:32,400 --> 01:22:35,720
Speaker 1: and look at the same fossil evidence. UM and so

1567
01:22:36,200 --> 01:22:40,080
Speaker 1: I I UM had the privilege of actually doing a

1568
01:22:40,240 --> 01:22:43,960
Speaker 1: pilot um study looking at early human fossils. I was

1569
01:22:44,000 --> 01:22:46,240
Speaker 1: interested in saying, like, well, early humans, if they're encountering

1570
01:22:46,320 --> 01:22:49,639
Speaker 1: carnivores more later in our prehistory, they're probably gonna actually

1571
01:22:49,680 --> 01:22:53,240
Speaker 1: have carnivore bite marks on them. UM. So I studied

1572
01:22:53,360 --> 01:22:56,479
Speaker 1: some early human fossils at the National Museums of Kenya,

1573
01:22:56,800 --> 01:23:00,360
Speaker 1: expecting to find carnivore bite marks, finding none of those, um,

1574
01:23:00,520 --> 01:23:04,680
Speaker 1: maybe finding some marks from other humans. So, UM, you know,

1575
01:23:04,800 --> 01:23:07,360
Speaker 1: can we look at things like cannibalism in our evolutionary history?

1576
01:23:07,360 --> 01:23:08,560
Speaker 1: You can have do you have to stay tuned for

1577
01:23:08,640 --> 01:23:14,760
Speaker 1: that one next time? People a little bit of dark

1578
01:23:15,000 --> 01:23:18,840
Speaker 1: How is cannibalism worked into our human evolution? Now, all

1579
01:23:18,920 --> 01:23:21,120
Speaker 1: this is to me personally, very interesting and like I said,

1580
01:23:21,200 --> 01:23:23,839
Speaker 1: with many of the topics we cover, this one especially,

1581
01:23:23,920 --> 01:23:27,400
Speaker 1: it goes in crazy directions as you start to relate

1582
01:23:27,520 --> 01:23:30,240
Speaker 1: this to who we are, what we are, why we

1583
01:23:30,320 --> 01:23:33,360
Speaker 1: do what we do. I mean, they're just I have

1584
01:23:34,240 --> 01:23:36,479
Speaker 1: like ten lengths of things I read that you've written

1585
01:23:36,680 --> 01:23:38,759
Speaker 1: and other people have written, and then it just becomes

1586
01:23:39,840 --> 01:23:42,400
Speaker 1: a big conversation. So thanks for being a part of

1587
01:23:42,439 --> 01:23:45,360
Speaker 1: that conversation. Thanks for fighting man. Yeah, and I'm gonna

1588
01:23:45,400 --> 01:23:48,559
Speaker 1: go sneak around the Smithsonian. Don't tell anybody I'm gonna

1589
01:23:48,600 --> 01:23:50,880
Speaker 1: I'm gonna follow you that I can't. I can't. I

1590
01:23:50,920 --> 01:23:52,560
Speaker 1: don't want you to become part of the collection, you know,

1591
01:23:54,840 --> 01:23:57,080
Speaker 1: stumble into the wrong. Yeah, I'll be a skeleton in

1592
01:23:57,120 --> 01:23:58,960
Speaker 1: the closet somewhere. You've got a lot of skeletons, a

1593
01:23:58,960 --> 01:24:01,800
Speaker 1: lot of heads. You feel like people The most we

1594
01:24:01,840 --> 01:24:04,080
Speaker 1: could tell people if you if you've never been the Smithsonian,

1595
01:24:04,240 --> 01:24:05,840
Speaker 1: what are you doing with your life? I have been

1596
01:24:05,880 --> 01:24:08,240
Speaker 1: here since I was a kid. Come visit us. You

1597
01:24:08,320 --> 01:24:10,320
Speaker 1: were a big part of putting together the Hall of Origin,

1598
01:24:12,120 --> 01:24:14,160
Speaker 1: which is almost ten years old. Please come visit us.

1599
01:24:14,240 --> 01:24:16,479
Speaker 1: It's still fresh and new and exciting. Yeah, if you

1600
01:24:16,520 --> 01:24:18,680
Speaker 1: want to get kind of like some real thought out

1601
01:24:18,880 --> 01:24:21,519
Speaker 1: distillation of what we're talking about here, it is there.

1602
01:24:21,560 --> 01:24:24,320
Speaker 1: I have some content we just took from from there,

1603
01:24:24,360 --> 01:24:26,280
Speaker 1: and I'll post it up when we post this, so

1604
01:24:26,400 --> 01:24:28,200
Speaker 1: you can kind of see some of that pictures, some

1605
01:24:28,360 --> 01:24:31,880
Speaker 1: video of Brianna talking. But come to see this, bring

1606
01:24:31,960 --> 01:24:34,479
Speaker 1: your kids. Like, I know, you've done a lot of

1607
01:24:35,560 --> 01:24:37,960
Speaker 1: work with teachers on how to educate on human evolution

1608
01:24:38,000 --> 01:24:42,679
Speaker 1: and things like that, so dive in at at your leisure,

1609
01:24:43,080 --> 01:24:45,800
Speaker 1: so please do all right, Thanks Brianna, You're welcome. Thank you.

1610
01:24:49,960 --> 01:24:52,720
Speaker 1: I guess I grew up on a row. That's it.

1611
01:24:53,160 --> 01:24:57,639
Speaker 1: That's all. Thanks to Brianna, Thanks to Phil as always,

1612
01:24:57,760 --> 01:24:59,759
Speaker 1: Thanks to all of you for writing in, for listening,

1613
01:24:59,840 --> 01:25:02,479
Speaker 1: for talking to us, for for a lot of you

1614
01:25:02,520 --> 01:25:04,080
Speaker 1: have really good writers, and a lot of you are

1615
01:25:04,120 --> 01:25:09,000
Speaker 1: really thoughtful talented folks. I am. I'm challenged by it

1616
01:25:09,160 --> 01:25:11,439
Speaker 1: as a writer. Um. One thing you need to do,

1617
01:25:11,720 --> 01:25:13,040
Speaker 1: of all the things you might need to do this

1618
01:25:13,120 --> 01:25:18,080
Speaker 1: holiday season is watch the Back forty now if you haven't.

1619
01:25:18,080 --> 01:25:20,400
Speaker 1: If you don't what the Back forty is, go to

1620
01:25:21,120 --> 01:25:23,880
Speaker 1: Meteator's YouTube channel, find the Back forty and watch from

1621
01:25:23,920 --> 01:25:28,160
Speaker 1: episode one to five. We've done five episodes over this fall,

1622
01:25:28,360 --> 01:25:33,360
Speaker 1: and we just launched episode six yesterday, so you gotta

1623
01:25:33,400 --> 01:25:36,360
Speaker 1: get over there and watch it. Mark Kenyon killed the

1624
01:25:36,400 --> 01:25:39,000
Speaker 1: Wide eight while I was on the property in Michigan

1625
01:25:39,080 --> 01:25:40,639
Speaker 1: with him. It was one of the coolest things I've

1626
01:25:40,640 --> 01:25:43,160
Speaker 1: ever been a part of. I am pretty damn happy

1627
01:25:43,200 --> 01:25:45,479
Speaker 1: with the final product of this episode. We worked a lot,

1628
01:25:45,600 --> 01:25:48,599
Speaker 1: We worked hard on it, so I hope you watch

1629
01:25:48,640 --> 01:25:51,960
Speaker 1: the episode six on Meteor YouTube channel of the Back

1630
01:25:52,080 --> 01:25:54,880
Speaker 1: forty and then we have two more episodes left in

1631
01:25:54,920 --> 01:25:57,479
Speaker 1: the year, so there's episode seven and eight upcoming where

1632
01:25:57,560 --> 01:26:00,519
Speaker 1: we'll find out more about this buck that Mark Kenyon

1633
01:26:00,560 --> 01:26:03,400
Speaker 1: shot and what's happening on the property. I think they're

1634
01:26:03,400 --> 01:26:06,519
Speaker 1: out there shooting the last episode right now, which is

1635
01:26:06,560 --> 01:26:10,240
Speaker 1: episode eight and featuring our friend Ryan kelleyam So stick

1636
01:26:10,280 --> 01:26:12,599
Speaker 1: around for all of that on the Meat Mediator YouTube

1637
01:26:12,680 --> 01:26:16,880
Speaker 1: channel and you'll be watching Back forty. Uh. That's all

1638
01:26:16,920 --> 01:26:19,439
Speaker 1: I got. We got again. I want to we want

1639
01:26:19,479 --> 01:26:22,640
Speaker 1: to reiterate we're doing the best of th HC. We

1640
01:26:22,800 --> 01:26:27,560
Speaker 1: got four shows to fill. Phil There's gonna be a

1641
01:26:27,560 --> 01:26:29,040
Speaker 1: lot of work, so we need your help. T at

1642
01:26:29,040 --> 01:26:31,400
Speaker 1: the media dot Com let us know your favorite moments,

1643
01:26:31,439 --> 01:26:35,960
Speaker 1: your favorite interviews, your favorite people, your favorite jokes, whatever

1644
01:26:36,040 --> 01:26:38,599
Speaker 1: else that you want us to highlight, and we will

1645
01:26:38,760 --> 01:26:41,320
Speaker 1: do it in the coming weeks and months here at

1646
01:26:41,400 --> 01:26:44,320
Speaker 1: th HC. Enjoy your the rest of your week and

1647
01:26:44,400 --> 01:26:48,120
Speaker 1: we'll see you next time. Because I can't go a

1648
01:26:48,240 --> 01:27:17,400
Speaker 1: week without doing run went wrong, drinking in Heaven? Don't

1649
01:27:17,520 --> 01:27:21,280
Speaker 1: sitting at the boss would stop the rong roof feeling

1650
01:27:21,360 --> 01:27:24,600
Speaker 1: like in all on our barros shoes all tell me

1651
01:27:24,760 --> 01:27:39,760
Speaker 1: what is that? H