1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:03,400 Speaker 1: Just ten days ago, President Trump tweeted that quote. It 2 00:00:03,520 --> 00:00:07,240 Speaker 1: is now commonly agreed, after months of costly looking, that 3 00:00:07,320 --> 00:00:11,119 Speaker 1: there was no collusion between Russia and Trump unquote. But 4 00:00:11,200 --> 00:00:14,520 Speaker 1: since then, Special Counsel Robert Mueller has unsealed indictments of 5 00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:18,000 Speaker 1: Trump campaign officials Paul Manafort and Rick Gates, and the 6 00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:21,920 Speaker 1: cooperation agreement of campaign foreign policy advisor George Papadopoulos, who 7 00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:24,720 Speaker 1: has told prosecutors he tried to arrange a meeting between 8 00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:28,400 Speaker 1: the campaign and representatives of the Russian government. And this weekend, 9 00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:31,680 Speaker 1: NBC reported that Mueller's office has evident has enough evidence 10 00:00:31,880 --> 00:00:35,159 Speaker 1: to bring charges against former National Security advisor Michael Flynn 11 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:39,040 Speaker 1: and Flynn's son. Here to talk with us about uh, 12 00:00:39,479 --> 00:00:42,839 Speaker 1: Michael Flynn, the Mueller investigation and where it might be 13 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:46,800 Speaker 1: going are William Banks, a professor at Syracuse University Law School, 14 00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:52,400 Speaker 1: and Andrew Kent, a professor at Fordham University School of Law. Andrew, 15 00:00:52,760 --> 00:00:56,240 Speaker 1: what do we know about what the Special counsel is 16 00:00:56,320 --> 00:01:00,520 Speaker 1: looking at Michael Flynn and his son for Oh, haven't 17 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:03,880 Speaker 1: had anything that I've seen come directly from Muller's office, 18 00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:06,839 Speaker 1: but certainly based on what's been reported in the press, 19 00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:08,280 Speaker 1: over the last six months. I think we have a 20 00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:11,520 Speaker 1: pretty good idea of what it might be. UM. I 21 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:15,920 Speaker 1: think probably the most likely thing would be a charge 22 00:01:15,959 --> 00:01:20,000 Speaker 1: related to his acting as UM an agent of the 23 00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:23,440 Speaker 1: Turkish Turkish government without registering with the Department of Justice, 24 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:26,440 Speaker 1: as he's required to by federal law. You know, you 25 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:29,679 Speaker 1: might recall about six months ago, there's a pretty stunning 26 00:01:29,720 --> 00:01:32,040 Speaker 1: report in the Wall Street Journal, then corroborated by some 27 00:01:32,080 --> 00:01:37,480 Speaker 1: other outlets that Flynn in September year, pretty soon before 28 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:40,720 Speaker 1: the election, when he was acting as as Trump's main 29 00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:44,760 Speaker 1: foreign policy advisor, had a meeting with representatives of the 30 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:50,360 Speaker 1: Turkish government about it seemingly how to extra legally spirit 31 00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:53,000 Speaker 1: out of the country out of the United States a 32 00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:56,240 Speaker 1: U S. Green card holder who's a person of Turkish 33 00:01:56,240 --> 00:02:01,120 Speaker 1: descent who opposes the heir to one government. And Flynn 34 00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:05,120 Speaker 1: only very belatedly registered as a foreign agent UM. And 35 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:09,160 Speaker 1: just the seemingly pretty clear failure to register in the 36 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:11,840 Speaker 1: in the pretty clear law that says you have to 37 00:02:11,840 --> 00:02:15,359 Speaker 1: register within ten days of becoming a foreign agent. It's 38 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:18,120 Speaker 1: just immediately say, that's pretty low hanging fruit for Mullah 39 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:23,680 Speaker 1: and Bill. The fact that Flynn's son is also under investigation. 40 00:02:24,080 --> 00:02:28,200 Speaker 1: Is that something that prosecutors might use to try to 41 00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:33,399 Speaker 1: get him to flip. I've seen it with husbands and wives. Well, 42 00:02:33,440 --> 00:02:36,320 Speaker 1: that's right. I think it's likely that that's what's going 43 00:02:36,360 --> 00:02:41,640 Speaker 1: on as we await possible indictments against Flynn and or 44 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:46,400 Speaker 1: his son. Flynn could help his son here and return 45 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:50,280 Speaker 1: for offering more information to the to the team. UH 46 00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:54,640 Speaker 1: Flynn Jr. Was at most of the meetings that Flynn 47 00:02:54,720 --> 00:02:57,880 Speaker 1: was at UH and involved in most of the activities 48 00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:02,359 Speaker 1: that that and was just discussing with throughout Flint. So 49 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:07,960 Speaker 1: UH Flynn Jr. Is in legal trouble too as well 50 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:11,560 Speaker 1: as his father Andrew, based on the what we've now 51 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:14,800 Speaker 1: learned in the last week or so about the way 52 00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:17,760 Speaker 1: the special counsel is bringing charges. I mean, if he 53 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:19,640 Speaker 1: had enough, if it's come out now that he has 54 00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:22,799 Speaker 1: enough evidence to bring charges against Flynn, it can't be that, 55 00:03:22,880 --> 00:03:25,600 Speaker 1: you know, this just suddenly happened. Um. One would think 56 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:28,040 Speaker 1: he's known that for a while. So it would appears 57 00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:30,840 Speaker 1: he's making decisions about what order to charge people in 58 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:33,400 Speaker 1: and for what. So we have these Manifort and Gates 59 00:03:33,440 --> 00:03:36,360 Speaker 1: indictments and now we're finding out about Flynn, what what 60 00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:38,840 Speaker 1: can you discern from all this about the way in 61 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:44,920 Speaker 1: which he's trying to play a strategy out in this investigation. Well, 62 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:50,480 Speaker 1: a number of people saw the distinction between the Manafort 63 00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:54,040 Speaker 1: charges and then what happened with Pophidopolis as trying to 64 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:56,839 Speaker 1: send a message to people in Flynn's shoes. And so 65 00:03:57,400 --> 00:04:01,040 Speaker 1: Manafort had seemingly failed to cooperate with Mueller and he 66 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:04,200 Speaker 1: really got slammed in terms of the number of charges filed, 67 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:08,080 Speaker 1: and Mueller is seeking a lot of forfeiture from from 68 00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:12,040 Speaker 1: Manafort engaged as well. Popping Offlas on the other hand, 69 00:04:12,160 --> 00:04:15,560 Speaker 1: came off with, you know, just one charge and you know, 70 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:18,840 Speaker 1: we don't know anything about sentencing exposure, but probably could 71 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:21,240 Speaker 1: end up with very little, if any jail time. Perhaps, 72 00:04:21,320 --> 00:04:23,440 Speaker 1: So a lot of people saw that as saying, you know, 73 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:27,000 Speaker 1: get on the right side of this, cooperate with with 74 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:31,400 Speaker 1: Mueller's probe, and we will treat you fairly. And certainly, 75 00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:34,320 Speaker 1: Michael Flynn is somebody who's been extremely close to Trump 76 00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:38,360 Speaker 1: going way back on the campaign and then obviously served 77 00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:41,360 Speaker 1: as his national security advisor. Seems like somebody who has 78 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:44,400 Speaker 1: a large amount of information and so he would probably 79 00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:46,440 Speaker 1: be precisely the type of person that Mueller would be 80 00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:49,760 Speaker 1: sending those signals to. UM. You know, cooperate and and 81 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:51,760 Speaker 1: you know, get some lesser charges or if not, we're 82 00:04:51,760 --> 00:04:53,600 Speaker 1: going to really throw the book at you. What do 83 00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:56,000 Speaker 1: you think of that, Bill, and quickly? Do you agree 84 00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:59,160 Speaker 1: that that's the way he's going It does look like that. 85 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:04,120 Speaker 1: I agree with Andrew. I think that you know, certainly, 86 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:08,719 Speaker 1: in PLNS case, he's been looking at this investigation and 87 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:12,560 Speaker 1: stewing about his plight since February so most of the 88 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 1: year now, as of course as his son to a 89 00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:20,880 Speaker 1: vested degree, and he certainly he and his latins understand 90 00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:24,360 Speaker 1: the strategy that Mueller's teams following. It's a very methodical, 91 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:28,080 Speaker 1: UH strategy, and it is one I think clearly sims 92 00:05:28,160 --> 00:05:30,880 Speaker 1: the signals that Andrew mentioned, that is, if you cooperate, 93 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:34,800 Speaker 1: you're going to be in far better shape personally than 94 00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:39,600 Speaker 1: if you stonewall Bill. You know this. Now with with Flynn, 95 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:42,479 Speaker 1: you've got a report that the Special Council is looking 96 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:45,839 Speaker 1: directly at the president's White House staff rather than just 97 00:05:45,880 --> 00:05:49,240 Speaker 1: people who worked on the campaign. UM. There was also 98 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:52,600 Speaker 1: reports last week that Jared Kushner has turned over a 99 00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:56,240 Speaker 1: lot of documents to the Special Counsel's office and that 100 00:05:56,279 --> 00:06:00,200 Speaker 1: the investigation maybe looking at him given what we know 101 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:03,880 Speaker 1: about the way that Special Council Mueller is proceeding. You know, 102 00:06:03,960 --> 00:06:06,880 Speaker 1: does Kushner have vulnerabilities that the Special Council may be 103 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:10,920 Speaker 1: able to exploit here? I think he does. I think 104 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:16,680 Speaker 1: he does, as does Trump Junior Donald Jr. Because the 105 00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:24,559 Speaker 1: evidence of collusion with Russians continues to UH multiply even 106 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:29,080 Speaker 1: with the Commerce secretaries stories over the weekend of connections 107 00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:33,640 Speaker 1: to a company in Russian dealings are just ever more 108 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:39,960 Speaker 1: indications that there was involvement between the campaign UH and 109 00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:44,599 Speaker 1: Russians of all sorts of testimony in Congress that's building 110 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:48,760 Speaker 1: up over the Facebook and other social media uses by 111 00:06:48,960 --> 00:06:54,120 Speaker 1: Russian influences and Russian financiers. Uh, it's a snowball in 112 00:06:54,200 --> 00:06:57,920 Speaker 1: the snowball I think is gathering some momentum here, Andrew. 113 00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:02,280 Speaker 1: In white color cases, people are often charged because they 114 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:05,640 Speaker 1: lied to the FBI. That's still a felony, even though 115 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:07,679 Speaker 1: people may say, oh, that's not such a big crime. 116 00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:11,600 Speaker 1: But in this case, do we see Muller using something 117 00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:14,640 Speaker 1: similar When with the indictment of Man of Fort and Gates, 118 00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:18,760 Speaker 1: and the information against George Papadopoulos was based online to 119 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:24,640 Speaker 1: the FBI in part. And could he be mulling filing 120 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:30,800 Speaker 1: against either Flynn or Jared Kushner about papers that they 121 00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:34,640 Speaker 1: had to file for security clearance or national foreign agent 122 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:40,480 Speaker 1: papers and lying on them. Absolutely, those, uh, those possibilities 123 00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:42,920 Speaker 1: you mentioned are live ones. And then I would add 124 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:44,720 Speaker 1: to that that you know, it's been reported for a 125 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:48,960 Speaker 1: question time now that the FBI talked to Michael Flynn 126 00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:53,440 Speaker 1: about his conversations during the transition period with the Russian 127 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:56,440 Speaker 1: ambassador kiss Leak, and at least according to you know, 128 00:07:56,480 --> 00:07:58,320 Speaker 1: I think it was the New York Times and Washington Post, 129 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:02,280 Speaker 1: Flynn was received by the FBI to have been very 130 00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:06,000 Speaker 1: misleading about his communications with kiss Leak. And you know, 131 00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:09,480 Speaker 1: ligne to the FBI is also a felony under the 132 00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:13,120 Speaker 1: same statute. So yeah, you're correct that those you know, 133 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:15,960 Speaker 1: those kinds of charges are very common in white collar cases, 134 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:18,520 Speaker 1: and I wouldn't be surprised at all to see Flynn 135 00:08:18,520 --> 00:08:22,280 Speaker 1: get charged with one or more misstatements to the federal government. 136 00:08:23,400 --> 00:08:26,320 Speaker 1: Bill is um. You know. Another angle on this is 137 00:08:26,400 --> 00:08:30,160 Speaker 1: that another form or foreign policy advisor besides Papadopolis. A 138 00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:32,360 Speaker 1: guy named Carter Page who has been on television a 139 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:35,439 Speaker 1: lot and who has um who has also just did 140 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:38,920 Speaker 1: six hours testifying before Congress in regard to you know, 141 00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:42,360 Speaker 1: these matters, and he said that he has He had 142 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:46,080 Speaker 1: mentioned too now Attorney General Jeff Sessions during the campaign 143 00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:48,960 Speaker 1: that he had a trip to Russia, uh planned and 144 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:53,000 Speaker 1: was going. Is there now jeopardy to Sessions as well? 145 00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:56,240 Speaker 1: As part of this investigation? I think there is. I 146 00:08:56,240 --> 00:09:03,319 Speaker 1: think ass Andrews suggested that all statements are are violations 147 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:06,560 Speaker 1: of federal law, and Sessions I think was selective in 148 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:10,560 Speaker 1: his memory when he last testified publicly about these things. 149 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:15,520 Speaker 1: And uh, and I think he's the selectivity of his 150 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:19,040 Speaker 1: memory maybe further tested here in the in the coming 151 00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:24,319 Speaker 1: weeks and months, because he was privy to these discussions 152 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:27,520 Speaker 1: as well. There's one other person, of course, is when 153 00:09:27,559 --> 00:09:30,880 Speaker 1: Andrew's going through the various ways in which Flynn might 154 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:34,680 Speaker 1: be vulnerable on on false statements. So there's one other 155 00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:36,960 Speaker 1: person he apparently lied to, and that was the Vice 156 00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:43,520 Speaker 1: President Andrew. They're also Carter Page. Though he did answer questions, 157 00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:48,120 Speaker 1: he invoked the Fifth Amendment in refusing to produce documents 158 00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:53,160 Speaker 1: during the interview. Once you once you start speaking, don't 159 00:09:53,160 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 1: you wave your right to the Fifth Amendment somewhat? You know, 160 00:09:58,120 --> 00:09:59,960 Speaker 1: it's a it's a complicated area, but you know, once 161 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:04,520 Speaker 1: you voluntarily disclosed some information, generally speaking, you've waived your 162 00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:09,240 Speaker 1: Fifth Amendment right as to the same subject matter. Um. 163 00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:11,160 Speaker 1: You know, I don't know enough about the particulars of 164 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:14,560 Speaker 1: you know, what what carter Page was willing to say 165 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:17,200 Speaker 1: and what he was refusing to say, but certainly it 166 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:21,920 Speaker 1: sounds like there might be arguments about waiver. You know, probably, uh, 167 00:10:21,960 --> 00:10:24,679 Speaker 1: there'll be a judicial decision at some point about the 168 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:27,800 Speaker 1: scope of this um. You know, that's relatively common in 169 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:31,360 Speaker 1: grand jury investigations for there to be privileged issues that 170 00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:33,719 Speaker 1: get brief to the court, and you know, you get 171 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:35,880 Speaker 1: a judicial decision on what kinds of documents are going 172 00:10:35,920 --> 00:10:38,320 Speaker 1: to be produced or what kinds of questions can be 173 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:41,480 Speaker 1: asked or not. Well. Our thanks to William Banks of 174 00:10:41,559 --> 00:10:45,360 Speaker 1: Syracuse University Law School and Andrew kent Afford HM University 175 00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:47,839 Speaker 1: School of Law for being here to talk with us 176 00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:51,880 Speaker 1: on Bloomberg Law about the Special Counsel's ongoing investigation, which 177 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:54,360 Speaker 1: has seems to have been heating up for some time now, 178 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:56,520 Speaker 1: and I'm sure we're gonna be talking about that a 179 00:10:56,600 --> 00:10:57,800 Speaker 1: lot going forward.