1 00:00:00,880 --> 00:00:09,879 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, a gorgeous young teen college girl. 2 00:00:09,920 --> 00:00:14,760 Speaker 1: An eighteen year old co ed Sheridan Gorman is shot 3 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:19,720 Speaker 1: dead on a stroll with friends, executed in cold blood 4 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:26,960 Speaker 1: tonight and illegal Venezuelan immigrant prime suspect. I'm Nancy Grace. 5 00:00:27,040 --> 00:00:29,280 Speaker 1: This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for 6 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:30,000 Speaker 1: being with us. 7 00:00:30,200 --> 00:00:32,960 Speaker 2: Eighteen year old freshman Sheridan Gorman was a bright, rising 8 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:36,920 Speaker 2: star at Loyola University Chicago until in a single moment, 9 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:38,360 Speaker 2: everything changed. 10 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:43,760 Speaker 1: What happened to this beautiful young co ed joining us 11 00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:46,519 Speaker 1: an all star panel? But first I want you to 12 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:54,320 Speaker 1: hear the police dispatch from that shooting incident. Listen, and 13 00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:56,920 Speaker 1: we got shot by her. It was a nailed and 14 00:00:57,000 --> 00:00:57,520 Speaker 1: a ski man. 15 00:00:57,640 --> 00:01:01,880 Speaker 3: When I'm Black Munich on of the lighthouse. 16 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:03,520 Speaker 4: See if have anyone in custody. 17 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:07,280 Speaker 3: There's no one acussy at this time right negative, We're 18 00:01:07,319 --> 00:01:09,199 Speaker 3: looking for a mail wearing an all. 19 00:01:09,319 --> 00:01:13,399 Speaker 1: Humat straight out to Sydney' Sumner Crime Stories investigative reporter 20 00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:18,480 Speaker 1: Sydney lead me up to the moment that shots rang out. 21 00:01:18,800 --> 00:01:21,600 Speaker 5: This was a Thursday night like any other for Sheridan 22 00:01:21,640 --> 00:01:27,559 Speaker 5: Gorman and her newfound friends at Loyola University. The group decides, hey, 23 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:29,959 Speaker 5: we might be able to see the northern lights tonight. 24 00:01:30,319 --> 00:01:33,000 Speaker 5: Let's go walk out to the beach and see if 25 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:36,000 Speaker 5: we can get some photos of the lights over the 26 00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:39,559 Speaker 5: skyline of the city. So this group takes a point 27 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:44,960 Speaker 5: seven mile walk. They're four minutes from campus when they 28 00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:48,000 Speaker 5: reach the pier where they want to take these photos 29 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:54,000 Speaker 5: and Sheridan notices something going on behind some bushes. She 30 00:01:54,120 --> 00:01:56,880 Speaker 5: kind of points it out to her friends and a 31 00:01:57,360 --> 00:02:02,280 Speaker 5: masked man. This man wearing all black and a ski 32 00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:06,720 Speaker 5: mask emerges from those bushes in the dark, and as 33 00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:09,800 Speaker 5: they kind of back off from this guy, he pulls 34 00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:15,360 Speaker 5: out a gun opened fire at these college students who 35 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:19,760 Speaker 5: just stumbled upon him, and Sheridan she's hit. 36 00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:25,200 Speaker 1: You know, the dichotomy of just starting your life out 37 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:29,720 Speaker 1: being a college student with so many possibilities before you. 38 00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:36,880 Speaker 1: She's eighteen years old, going to college, scrubbed in sunshine. 39 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:40,480 Speaker 1: It's the parents' dream come true. They were their whole life, 40 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:44,079 Speaker 1: all their time, all their effort, all their money they 41 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:47,400 Speaker 1: pour into her to get her to college. Maybe I'm 42 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:50,840 Speaker 1: projecting Sydney because my children are about to go away 43 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:54,040 Speaker 1: to college. They think, oh, we did it. We made it. 44 00:02:54,639 --> 00:02:56,839 Speaker 1: She's gonna be fine. This she wants did you say 45 00:02:57,000 --> 00:03:01,720 Speaker 1: point seven miles not even a mile, not even a 46 00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 1: fifteen minute walk, for Pete's sake, four. 47 00:03:05,480 --> 00:03:09,360 Speaker 5: Minutes from the edge of Loyola campus. 48 00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:15,440 Speaker 1: The dichotomy is very unsettling, straight out to doctor Jerlyn Utter. 49 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:21,120 Speaker 1: She is clinical psychologists specializing in psychological evaluations and risk assessments, 50 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:26,600 Speaker 1: author of mainlining Philly Survival Hope Resisting Drug Addiction, and 51 00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:30,559 Speaker 1: she is the producer and star of Utter Nonsense, a documentary. 52 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:33,639 Speaker 1: Doctor Jerlyne, thank you for being with us. What is it? 53 00:03:33,639 --> 00:03:38,520 Speaker 1: It's just such a stark comparison to her life, just 54 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:42,400 Speaker 1: really getting started at age eighteen and then being struck 55 00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:44,800 Speaker 1: down doing something as innocent is going on a walk 56 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:46,480 Speaker 1: with her friends to see the northern lights. 57 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:50,680 Speaker 6: Yeah, with something like this, Nancy, a lot of questions 58 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:53,080 Speaker 6: that's probably going through folks head is why her this 59 00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:56,640 Speaker 6: eighteen year old girl, she's beautiful, she's away at her 60 00:03:56,960 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 6: first year of college. And when we look at something 61 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:03,960 Speaker 6: like that, we look at psychologically a concept called target substitution. 62 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:07,119 Speaker 6: So what that means is she may not have been 63 00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:10,600 Speaker 6: somebody that was stalked by this particular individual, but in 64 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:13,480 Speaker 6: the moment the decision was made that it would be her. 65 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:17,560 Speaker 6: So though the intent initially may not have been her 66 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:20,400 Speaker 6: or that she was being stalked, it was definitely something 67 00:04:20,440 --> 00:04:24,120 Speaker 6: that was planned in that moment that he made the 68 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:27,159 Speaker 6: decision that of those other folks, that she was the 69 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:29,960 Speaker 6: one that was potentially going to be targeted. So we 70 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:34,400 Speaker 6: call that target substitution. And from you know, the perpetrator's perspective, 71 00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:40,200 Speaker 6: it usually comes from a place of you know, no empathy, grievance, control, anger. 72 00:04:40,520 --> 00:04:44,240 Speaker 6: He's angry about something, though it may not be her specifically, 73 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:47,159 Speaker 6: it may be something that she represents and he wanted 74 00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:51,400 Speaker 6: to basically, you know, institute a lot of pain and suffering. 75 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:51,720 Speaker 3: For other folks. 76 00:04:53,720 --> 00:04:56,440 Speaker 1: You know, I'm looking at a graduation photo of the 77 00:04:56,560 --> 00:05:02,800 Speaker 1: victim and she is wearing her braids around her neck. 78 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:06,320 Speaker 1: When I said scrubbed and sunshine, I really meant it. 79 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:09,520 Speaker 1: And another thing I don't understand Sidney Sumner, apparently a 80 00:05:09,640 --> 00:05:14,760 Speaker 1: Chicago lawmaker blamed the victim after saying this teen girl 81 00:05:15,279 --> 00:05:18,960 Speaker 1: was killed her words, not mine by a quote illegal 82 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:23,240 Speaker 1: immigrant was in the wrong place. She she her the 83 00:05:23,320 --> 00:05:26,000 Speaker 1: victim was in the wrong place at the wrong time, 84 00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:34,040 Speaker 1: and she quote startled her attacker, suggesting Sheridan was shot 85 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:37,400 Speaker 1: dead there on the lake front because she was in 86 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:41,799 Speaker 1: the wrong place, the wrong time at startle Jose Medina 87 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:48,280 Speaker 1: Medina of Venezuelan man. So do I have that right? 88 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:52,080 Speaker 1: Did the female lawmaker actually say it, sir, her fault 89 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 1: because she startled him. 90 00:05:55,520 --> 00:05:59,479 Speaker 5: I don't think that was the intent behind the comment, Nancy. 91 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:03,800 Speaker 5: But yes, they are saying that Sheridan maybe should not 92 00:06:03,960 --> 00:06:07,000 Speaker 5: have been out that late at night. But this is 93 00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:07,960 Speaker 5: a college student. 94 00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:10,960 Speaker 1: Okay, this is just hard. Hold on, let me understand 95 00:06:11,680 --> 00:06:20,479 Speaker 1: what a Crime Stories investigator just said. A lawmaker blurted 96 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:25,320 Speaker 1: something out but quote didn't really mean it. You, Sidney Sumner, 97 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:31,600 Speaker 1: can divine what she really meant. And you're saying that 98 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:35,920 Speaker 1: she meant that she shouldn't have been out that night. 99 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:41,400 Speaker 1: That's your explanation. So the victims shouldn't have been out. 100 00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:43,919 Speaker 5: Of course, not Nancy. Of course, this victim should be 101 00:06:43,960 --> 00:06:46,359 Speaker 5: able to do whatever she wants to do. This is 102 00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:51,040 Speaker 5: a grown woman. Her college campus should be a safe place. 103 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:55,080 Speaker 5: Chicago should be a safe place for a young woman 104 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:58,320 Speaker 5: to be out with a group of friends ten minutes 105 00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:01,520 Speaker 5: from her dorm. Four minutes from her dorm to take 106 00:07:01,600 --> 00:07:05,240 Speaker 5: photos of the northern lights, to enjoy the city skyline. So, 107 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:10,640 Speaker 5: of course Sheridan Gorman did nothing wrong by being out 108 00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:14,640 Speaker 5: with her friends. Her stumbling upon this man should not 109 00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:18,560 Speaker 5: be a reason that she's now dead, that her life 110 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:21,920 Speaker 5: is now extinguished. Of course that should not be the case. 111 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:26,120 Speaker 5: And this older woman did make a comment, Yes, this 112 00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:31,240 Speaker 5: young teen girl was unfortunately a victim of a wrong place, 113 00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:32,640 Speaker 5: wrong time. 114 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:34,400 Speaker 1: Murder. 115 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:35,840 Speaker 5: Something that never Okay, you. 116 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:39,920 Speaker 1: Know that's something I'm not understanding. And to me, you're 117 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:43,160 Speaker 1: digging your own haul. You're gray with your teeth right 118 00:07:43,160 --> 00:07:47,320 Speaker 1: now by the because there's no way to clarify what 119 00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:50,840 Speaker 1: this lawmaker, and I'm using that in a loose sense 120 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:54,880 Speaker 1: of the word said, So if you're saying, Sydney, she 121 00:07:54,920 --> 00:07:57,080 Speaker 1: didn't mean what she said. I watched the clip, that's 122 00:07:57,120 --> 00:07:58,560 Speaker 1: not how she meant it. What she meant was she 123 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:00,280 Speaker 1: shouldn't have been out at night. Well, that it's just 124 00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:04,760 Speaker 1: as bad. I've heard that my whole life since I 125 00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:08,000 Speaker 1: started prosecuting. The victim shouldn't have been at a bar? 126 00:08:08,120 --> 00:08:10,640 Speaker 1: Why the victims shouldn't have worn a short skirt, Why 127 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:13,560 Speaker 1: the victim shouldn't have jogged. Why I've heard it and 128 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:15,640 Speaker 1: heard it and heard it. If it starts with the 129 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:21,320 Speaker 1: victims shouldn't have then I rejected this girl. And she 130 00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:25,280 Speaker 1: is a girl. She is eighteen years old, was out 131 00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:29,440 Speaker 1: on a stroll with her friend girls to see the 132 00:08:29,520 --> 00:08:33,880 Speaker 1: northern lights. There she is in her Honograd outfit and 133 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:37,400 Speaker 1: she is gunned down. And it will be a cold 134 00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:42,240 Speaker 1: day in hl that I buy that the shooter was 135 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:48,839 Speaker 1: quote startled what he had dressed in all black. He 136 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:51,680 Speaker 1: was wearing a ski mask to cover his face. He 137 00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:56,600 Speaker 1: came to the location with a gun straight out to 138 00:08:56,720 --> 00:09:01,720 Speaker 1: Greg Morris joining me. Veteran defense attorney, he is the 139 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:07,920 Speaker 1: founder of Morse Legal and author of The Untested Greg So, 140 00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:10,680 Speaker 1: when was the last time you went for a walk 141 00:09:10,679 --> 00:09:13,680 Speaker 1: wearing a ski mask and carrying a gun? Let's just 142 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:14,520 Speaker 1: start right there. 143 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:18,160 Speaker 7: Yeah, that's never happened before. A ski mask went on 144 00:09:18,240 --> 00:09:24,959 Speaker 7: in a cold weather place, but never Palm Beach. Okay, 145 00:09:25,040 --> 00:09:29,080 Speaker 7: you know this is the issue, Like the lawmaker. What's 146 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:32,040 Speaker 7: problematic and troubling is the lawmakers statement should have been 147 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:34,880 Speaker 7: we failed this girl because we don't put any resources 148 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:37,800 Speaker 7: into security. This park should have had security. This park 149 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:40,600 Speaker 7: should have had better lighting. You can have all the 150 00:09:40,640 --> 00:09:43,960 Speaker 7: technology you want in law enforcement, but you need police 151 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:47,360 Speaker 7: officers on the ground walking around. That's what stops crime. 152 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:51,040 Speaker 7: Lighting stops crime. It doesn't give people places to hide. 153 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:53,199 Speaker 7: And that's the reason why these things are going to 154 00:09:53,240 --> 00:09:56,559 Speaker 7: continue to happen in places like I guess Chicago, because 155 00:09:56,640 --> 00:09:59,960 Speaker 7: they have lawmakers that are blaming victims for doing whatever. 156 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:03,120 Speaker 7: Single person does goes out at night, especially young people, 157 00:10:03,760 --> 00:10:07,120 Speaker 7: and this was a very nice thing to do. It 158 00:10:07,160 --> 00:10:10,480 Speaker 7: wasn't partying, it wasn't anything. It was going to the park. 159 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:14,240 Speaker 7: And I imagine Loyal is a very expensive university and 160 00:10:14,280 --> 00:10:17,040 Speaker 7: the fact that there's no security at this park from 161 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:20,880 Speaker 7: the campus is tragic and parents should be demanding more 162 00:10:20,920 --> 00:10:23,440 Speaker 7: from the university. This easily could have been avoided by 163 00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:25,840 Speaker 7: simple security measures at the school, I have no doubt 164 00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:27,800 Speaker 7: has plenty of money to put in place. 165 00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:30,240 Speaker 4: So it's, you. 166 00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:34,400 Speaker 7: Know, one of the unfortunate things that people can become 167 00:10:34,520 --> 00:10:38,080 Speaker 7: victims anywhere in our society, especially a free society. And 168 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:40,880 Speaker 7: what's not being talked about, Nancy, which is important, how 169 00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:43,760 Speaker 7: did this undocumented immigrant get the gun? Who gave the gun, 170 00:10:43,800 --> 00:10:46,040 Speaker 7: where'd the gun come from? There's been no talk of 171 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:48,960 Speaker 7: that at all. That's an important aspect to this, that 172 00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:52,559 Speaker 7: someone who legally cannot buy a firearm bought one and 173 00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:54,960 Speaker 7: killed a young lady who had all the promise. 174 00:10:54,640 --> 00:10:55,120 Speaker 4: In the world. 175 00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:58,520 Speaker 1: Okay, you know what I had to write so quickly 176 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:03,479 Speaker 1: I can't even read my writing. All the people you blamed. 177 00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:09,160 Speaker 1: Just then I was three inches of Sydney Summer's tailpipe 178 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:12,800 Speaker 1: trying to defend that council woman blaming the victim. But 179 00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:16,120 Speaker 1: this is who you blame. Start counting. You're gonna need 180 00:11:16,160 --> 00:11:23,480 Speaker 1: both hands, Jamie. Start counting. One the lawmakers. Two the park. 181 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:28,040 Speaker 1: It was the Chicago Park's fault. Three the lighting. They 182 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:31,679 Speaker 1: needed better lighting. Four the police officers should have been there. 183 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:35,439 Speaker 1: Where were all the police officers? That's what for? Five? 184 00:11:35,760 --> 00:11:39,480 Speaker 1: Campus security, it's their fault they were not there by 185 00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:42,319 Speaker 1: the lake. It's the university's fault. What is that? I'm 186 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:46,400 Speaker 1: up to six? Six, it's the university's fault. Then you 187 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:54,360 Speaker 1: blame fate, fate you want to. Then you blamed our 188 00:11:54,520 --> 00:11:58,880 Speaker 1: free society that it's I guess the American ways our 189 00:11:58,920 --> 00:12:02,880 Speaker 1: fault because we're not in communist China and lockdown. Oh 190 00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:06,840 Speaker 1: and wait, who gave him the gun. It's their fault. 191 00:12:08,559 --> 00:12:11,679 Speaker 7: Well, we want to stop these things. 192 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:15,640 Speaker 1: It's Medina's fault. Oh wait, I got another one way 193 00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:18,240 Speaker 1: he blames somebody else. Why am I hearing him? I thought, 194 00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:20,640 Speaker 1: I say, god, his mic, but I'm still hearing him. 195 00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:23,400 Speaker 1: How did he did? You? Did he say? How did 196 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:25,200 Speaker 1: he get back in the country? Why was he? Why 197 00:12:25,240 --> 00:12:28,760 Speaker 1: was he here? I guess he's blaming Iron asked, Okay, I'm 198 00:12:28,760 --> 00:12:31,360 Speaker 1: not sure about that because I was writing so quickly. 199 00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:38,560 Speaker 1: Sidney Sumner, you're all probation for a few moments. Isn't 200 00:12:38,600 --> 00:12:42,839 Speaker 1: it true that the perp was dressed? This is the yes. No. 201 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:47,160 Speaker 1: By the way, all in black, all in black, ski 202 00:12:47,480 --> 00:12:53,920 Speaker 1: ski mask correct, gun correct, hiding in bushes mm hmm, 203 00:12:54,960 --> 00:12:56,720 Speaker 1: jumped out on a bunch of girls. 204 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:00,640 Speaker 5: I am not sure the composition of the friend group. 205 00:13:00,679 --> 00:13:03,000 Speaker 5: I don't know if it's Sheridan and four other girls. 206 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:05,360 Speaker 5: I know it was Sheridan and four other friends. 207 00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:10,320 Speaker 1: Thank you, Sidney for that subtle yet important distinction. Okay, 208 00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:14,880 Speaker 1: Greg Morse, there is no way you can blame anybody 209 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:19,840 Speaker 1: except Medina. Medina, he's the one clad in blame. Of course, 210 00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:22,880 Speaker 1: wearing a ski mask with a gun. You can Outlind 211 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:26,800 Speaker 1: the lighting or the police weren't there, or the campus security. 212 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:31,360 Speaker 1: You cannot take the focus off him, and you better 213 00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:34,360 Speaker 1: not pile on and blame the victim. 214 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:38,560 Speaker 7: Well, it's not no, it's just a simple fact that 215 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:42,079 Speaker 7: you know, as a society, you want to create things 216 00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:45,520 Speaker 7: in situations so this can't happen or limit happening. It 217 00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:48,319 Speaker 7: can happen anywhere. Of course, we're a free society, and 218 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:50,760 Speaker 7: Medina is the guy that's responsible for this, at least 219 00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:52,160 Speaker 7: according to law enforcement. 220 00:13:53,640 --> 00:13:55,240 Speaker 4: Right now, that's who they arrested. 221 00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:59,000 Speaker 7: But when we look at the situation, there's situations all 222 00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:03,360 Speaker 7: over America. Simple things that could be done that can, 223 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:06,280 Speaker 7: you know, maybe avoid this from happening. 224 00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:08,520 Speaker 4: You know, I don't. I don't. I live in Florida. 225 00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:10,440 Speaker 7: I practice law, and I don't live in a state 226 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:14,680 Speaker 7: where you know, this happens. But there's a different view 227 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:15,520 Speaker 7: when it comes. 228 00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:19,480 Speaker 1: To are you killing me. Murders don't happen in Florida. 229 00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:21,239 Speaker 4: I said they do. 230 00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:23,960 Speaker 1: In Orlando. 231 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:27,720 Speaker 7: I'm a criminal defense lawyer that handles these cases. 232 00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:31,560 Speaker 8: Yes, we have a lot of that's Insanelida, and I 233 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:32,320 Speaker 8: blame us. 234 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:36,640 Speaker 1: I'd blame the drug trade out of Florida for a 235 00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:41,000 Speaker 1: lot of crime in Atlanta because the dopers come straight up. 236 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:44,160 Speaker 1: I seventy five first major pit stop Atlanta. Let's have 237 00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:46,720 Speaker 1: a turf war. So, I don't know what you're saying. 238 00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:48,360 Speaker 1: There's no murder in Florida. 239 00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:52,960 Speaker 4: No, there's plenty of crime that go in Florida. 240 00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:57,120 Speaker 7: I was referencing the fact that when we have things 241 00:14:57,160 --> 00:15:01,440 Speaker 7: here that happened, the government tries to correct the situation 242 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:04,760 Speaker 7: so it doesn't happen again. You can't stop this young lady. 243 00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:07,240 Speaker 7: She was unfortunately killed. So what do we do to 244 00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:09,840 Speaker 7: try to avoid this? And when you read about the situation, 245 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:13,360 Speaker 7: there's some pretty simple things that may have saved this. 246 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:18,120 Speaker 1: Just a let violent felons come back in the country. 247 00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:21,360 Speaker 1: You know, we can start with a petty Why single 248 00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:27,520 Speaker 1: them violent felons behind bars instead of letting them rotate 249 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:31,720 Speaker 1: out like their graduation at kindergarten. Just keep on walking, 250 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:33,000 Speaker 1: keep on walking. 251 00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:37,880 Speaker 7: Native born Americans commit more crime than undocumented immigrants by 252 00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:41,120 Speaker 7: a rate of over fifty percent. Native born Americans commit 253 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:43,520 Speaker 7: more crime than any resident of any other country. 254 00:15:43,960 --> 00:15:47,920 Speaker 1: Let me be really clear, for Greg Moores and everyone, 255 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:51,800 Speaker 1: I don't care if you're an illegal immigrant or if 256 00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:55,240 Speaker 1: your great great great great grandpa came over on the Mayflower. 257 00:15:56,200 --> 00:15:59,120 Speaker 1: If you commit a violent fine, if you commit a 258 00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:03,400 Speaker 1: violent crime, you need to go to jail and stay 259 00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:08,520 Speaker 1: there and not come through the rotating, revolving door and 260 00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:13,040 Speaker 1: get right back out. That goes for illegal immigrants too. 261 00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:18,760 Speaker 1: Why is he here to Sydney, Sumner joining us, Sydney, 262 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:23,040 Speaker 1: explain to me who is this guy? Why is he here? 263 00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:28,640 Speaker 5: Jose Medina is from Venezuela and he first arrived in 264 00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:33,200 Speaker 5: the US in the spring of twenty twenty three. From there, 265 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:36,880 Speaker 5: we know he was briefly detained by border patrol, then 266 00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:41,280 Speaker 5: released into the country and he winds up in Chicago. 267 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:46,080 Speaker 5: And just a few months after first entering the United States, 268 00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:50,840 Speaker 5: Medina robs a Macy store on State Street. About one 269 00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:54,440 Speaker 5: hundred and thirty two dollars was the charge. 270 00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:56,760 Speaker 1: Wait Ante, I thought it was shoplifting. 271 00:16:56,920 --> 00:16:59,360 Speaker 5: Shoplifting, correct, he stole from a Macy store. 272 00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:04,800 Speaker 1: Okay, because Roy, it's when you take something from a person, 273 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:08,879 Speaker 1: whether you're armed. That would be armed robbery or simple 274 00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:12,480 Speaker 1: robbery as you just mentioned, where you take something away 275 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:17,120 Speaker 1: from an individual, not to be confused with burglary. When 276 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:21,000 Speaker 1: you enter a premises to commit a felony. That felony 277 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:25,080 Speaker 1: could be vandalism, It could be a murder, it could 278 00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:28,760 Speaker 1: be rape, it could be theft. That's an assault on 279 00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:32,959 Speaker 1: the premises as opposed to shoplifting, where you just swipe 280 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:35,480 Speaker 1: something out of a store. But you were saying he 281 00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:37,800 Speaker 1: had been here not even a year before he's busted 282 00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:38,560 Speaker 1: on shoplifting. 283 00:17:39,359 --> 00:17:43,359 Speaker 5: Yes, so arrives in May twenty twenty three September twenty 284 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:47,600 Speaker 5: twenty three hit with that shoplifting charge for lifting items 285 00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:50,480 Speaker 5: from a Macy's store, about one hundred and thirty two 286 00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:54,720 Speaker 5: dollars worth of merchandise stolen, and Medina, of course, is 287 00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:58,200 Speaker 5: released on bail and he never returns to court. There 288 00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:01,840 Speaker 5: was an active arrest warrant for Medina at the time 289 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:03,120 Speaker 5: of Sheridan shooting. 290 00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:07,280 Speaker 1: Guys, this is bringing up the specter of so many 291 00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:13,480 Speaker 1: other young girls and young women attacked by illegal immigrants 292 00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:17,639 Speaker 1: with a violent past. I am not, and let me 293 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:21,199 Speaker 1: be clear, referring to immigrants that have helped make our 294 00:18:21,320 --> 00:18:28,200 Speaker 1: nation great. My family came from immigrants, poor Irish coming 295 00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:33,000 Speaker 1: to America for a new start. I am referring to 296 00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:40,919 Speaker 1: felons that enter our country and are allowed to stay here. Again, 297 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:47,040 Speaker 1: this is not about politics. Greg Morse would love to 298 00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:51,280 Speaker 1: drive me down the path of arguing what difference does 299 00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:54,280 Speaker 1: it make if it is an illegal immigrant or it's 300 00:18:54,320 --> 00:18:59,199 Speaker 1: someone born and bred USA killer. It doesn't. But this 301 00:18:59,359 --> 00:19:03,800 Speaker 1: begs the question question of why is he here? What 302 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:08,399 Speaker 1: was his record in Venezuela. I know this. This girl 303 00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:12,520 Speaker 1: is dead. This girl is dead because, according to police, 304 00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:17,080 Speaker 1: an illegal immigrant that should not have been here shot 305 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:18,520 Speaker 1: her dead. 306 00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:22,040 Speaker 9: I really thought it was a fireword until I heard 307 00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:24,440 Speaker 9: the police sirens come and I got out of bed 308 00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:28,080 Speaker 9: and I just heard the screaming. They were saying, come 309 00:19:28,119 --> 00:19:29,280 Speaker 9: help us, We're over here. 310 00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:33,240 Speaker 3: Miss Sheridan Gorman was kind of just the first in 311 00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:37,080 Speaker 3: the group and the person they ran into shot her. 312 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:40,720 Speaker 3: So one shot and killed her. 313 00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:42,440 Speaker 1: Just just tragic. 314 00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:45,080 Speaker 3: The other students ran, the shooter fled. 315 00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:48,840 Speaker 10: Her and four friends were literally a four minute walk 316 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:51,160 Speaker 10: from campus, so it's not like they were out looking 317 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:53,840 Speaker 10: for trouble or during one of the safest areas of Chicago. 318 00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:55,280 Speaker 10: From what I understand. 319 00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:57,520 Speaker 1: From our friends PIX eleven, ABC and NBC. 320 00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:01,639 Speaker 2: Early Thursday morning, Share and her friends went out hoping 321 00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:04,800 Speaker 2: to catch a glimpse of the northern lights. Unaware of 322 00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:05,760 Speaker 2: the danger. 323 00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:08,640 Speaker 10: Ahead, they saw this person coming over. They all got 324 00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:11,400 Speaker 10: up and started to walk away, and he just opened fire, 325 00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:16,080 Speaker 10: and unfortunately, you know, Sheridan was hit and we lost 326 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:16,720 Speaker 10: her immediately. 327 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:24,840 Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace. 328 00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:33,400 Speaker 3: People come out here after dark. Weather's milder. We see 329 00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:37,159 Speaker 3: that more as the spring and summer comes along. You know, 330 00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:38,680 Speaker 3: they were kind of down at the end of the pier. 331 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:40,959 Speaker 3: Seems they stumbled onto someone. 332 00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:44,680 Speaker 1: They quote stumbled on to someone. That's not what happened. 333 00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:49,080 Speaker 1: He jumped out of the bushes armed. That's where our 334 00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:52,920 Speaker 1: friends at Picks eleven and ABC. That is older woman 335 00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:58,399 Speaker 1: Maria hadn't. Speaking from the Chicago forty ninth ward straight 336 00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:02,159 Speaker 1: out to Special Guests, joining US doctor Thomas Coin. He 337 00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:06,840 Speaker 1: is the chief Medical Examiner District to Medical Examiner's office 338 00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:10,080 Speaker 1: in Florida, where, according to Morris, they don't have any murders. 339 00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:16,840 Speaker 1: A forensic pathologist, toxicologist, neuropathologist, Dodger Coin, thank you for being. 340 00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:19,800 Speaker 11: With us, Thank you, thank you for having me. 341 00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:24,440 Speaker 1: What did shear it and experience that night? 342 00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:30,200 Speaker 12: Well, unfortunately she got of a gunshot wounded the head 343 00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:35,119 Speaker 12: and so the second that bullet would have impacted her skull, 344 00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:38,480 Speaker 12: she would have been knocked unconscious, and she would have 345 00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:42,800 Speaker 12: died almost immediately thereafter. Gun chow wounds at the head 346 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:47,520 Speaker 12: are devastating injuries. Most of these wounds are from nine 347 00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:51,320 Speaker 12: millimeter handguns, and the velocity at which the bullet exits 348 00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:55,280 Speaker 12: in the Forci Parris produces devastating injuries to the brain. 349 00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:56,960 Speaker 8: And you and I are. 350 00:21:56,880 --> 00:22:00,040 Speaker 12: Sitting here await or not even thinking about having to 351 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:02,840 Speaker 12: breathe in and breathe out. Those structures in our brain 352 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:06,360 Speaker 12: often are injured immediately after being shot in the head, 353 00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:10,760 Speaker 12: and so a person stops breathing, loses consciousness, and dies soon. 354 00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:13,040 Speaker 11: They're a devastating womb dodger. 355 00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:19,240 Speaker 1: Coin, we understand that a forty caliber bullet killed her, 356 00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:23,119 Speaker 1: What is the difference in say a forty caliber and 357 00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:27,480 Speaker 1: a nine versus a twenty two What would be the 358 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:28,600 Speaker 1: different bigger? 359 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:31,720 Speaker 12: And it packs much greater force, greater force than a 360 00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:35,479 Speaker 12: twenty two caliber handgun, And so a wound to the 361 00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:39,440 Speaker 12: head from a forty caliber handgun is devastating. In other words, 362 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:43,280 Speaker 12: the skull itself when the bullet impacts the skull would 363 00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:47,120 Speaker 12: fracture as the bullet travels through the brain. Not only 364 00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:50,120 Speaker 12: is a bullet destructive directed to the brain, but the 365 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:53,400 Speaker 12: force of the bullet creates a pressure wave around the bullet, 366 00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:57,960 Speaker 12: which devastates brain structures that are even further away from 367 00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:02,440 Speaker 12: the bullet itself. So a person often has severe skull 368 00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:07,080 Speaker 12: fractures and devastating brain injuries throughout the entirety of not just. 369 00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:08,240 Speaker 11: Where the bullet travels. 370 00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:10,919 Speaker 12: So even a bullet that may graze the head or 371 00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:13,679 Speaker 12: graze the brain can still be fatal just because of 372 00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:15,520 Speaker 12: the force that bullet brings. 373 00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:15,840 Speaker 11: With me. 374 00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:21,840 Speaker 1: Now, you were describing a forty caliber, but could you 375 00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:24,640 Speaker 1: compare it to a twenty two caliber? 376 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:29,680 Speaker 11: Specifically, sure, twenty two calibers. So I've had people who. 377 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:33,919 Speaker 12: Tempted to commit suicide by placing a twenty two caliber 378 00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:37,320 Speaker 12: handgun against the head. And depending upon where that gun 379 00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:40,480 Speaker 12: is placed, the skull itself may be thick enough to 380 00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:43,320 Speaker 12: slow down the twenty two caliber bullet where it either 381 00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:46,640 Speaker 12: stops in the skull or isn't as devastating, let's say, 382 00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:49,960 Speaker 12: as a forty caliber or a nine millimeter projectile that 383 00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:54,879 Speaker 12: will travel through the brain, often producing extensive skull fractures. 384 00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:59,360 Speaker 12: And so the twenty two caliber tenth from a handgun 385 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:01,760 Speaker 12: in particular that tends to have a less force can 386 00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:06,440 Speaker 12: still be devastating, especially you know, it strikes vital structures, 387 00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:13,880 Speaker 12: can have fatal consequences or profound neurologic injuries. But tens 388 00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:16,320 Speaker 12: did not have as much force as a nine millimeter 389 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:18,240 Speaker 12: or forty caliber handgun. 390 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:22,400 Speaker 1: What's the differential between the twenty two and a forty caliber. 391 00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:23,920 Speaker 11: In terms of well the weight of it. 392 00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:26,479 Speaker 12: You know, you're probably a forty caliber you're looking at, 393 00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:29,919 Speaker 12: you know, above one hundred grains twenty two caliber below. 394 00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:35,399 Speaker 12: But you know, in terms of the measurement I'd have 395 00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:37,840 Speaker 12: to show you, you know, in terms of centimeter measurement, 396 00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:42,879 Speaker 12: but a smaller, smaller projectile itself. And also you know, 397 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:46,879 Speaker 12: the actual gunpowder that is packed with so that it 398 00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:49,080 Speaker 12: produces less force when it's fired. 399 00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:53,159 Speaker 11: So the projectile's help is smaller and travels. 400 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:56,480 Speaker 12: With a lower velocity than a forty caliber or nine millimeters. 401 00:24:56,600 --> 00:24:59,600 Speaker 12: Therefore the force, you know, mass and speed are going 402 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:04,280 Speaker 12: to be mass and velocity are going to do less. 403 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:06,879 Speaker 1: You know, doctor Thomas Coyne, I know you're looking at 404 00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:10,920 Speaker 1: your monitor and seeing photos of shere it in It's 405 00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:15,800 Speaker 1: hard for me difficult for me sometimes to discuss the 406 00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:18,680 Speaker 1: facts the trajectory path of a bullet at the angle 407 00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:25,239 Speaker 1: and look at the victim in life and reconcile that 408 00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:28,639 Speaker 1: she is nothing now but a dead body on a 409 00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:34,199 Speaker 1: slab to be autopsied, where you figure out the trajectory 410 00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:37,200 Speaker 1: path and what the bullet did to her brain. Do 411 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:41,200 Speaker 1: you ever allow yourself to think about that when you 412 00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:43,760 Speaker 1: are conducting an autopsy such as on a young girl 413 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:44,440 Speaker 1: like this. 414 00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:46,480 Speaker 11: I try not to. 415 00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:48,840 Speaker 12: I have a son who's graduating high school and about 416 00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:51,840 Speaker 12: to go off to college, and so when I see 417 00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:55,000 Speaker 12: victims that age, I have to turn off my emotions 418 00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:57,480 Speaker 12: because as a parent myself, it's hard not to have 419 00:25:57,520 --> 00:25:59,800 Speaker 12: your heart just break, you know, when you walk into 420 00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:02,240 Speaker 12: the moork and you see that body lying on the table. 421 00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:05,000 Speaker 12: But I know that I'm doing my best to hopefully 422 00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:08,199 Speaker 12: bring justice for her, and so I know that my 423 00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:10,960 Speaker 12: job is a going there and figure is out exactly 424 00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:13,560 Speaker 12: what happened, try to provide evidence I can get the 425 00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:16,680 Speaker 12: law enforcement hopefully, you know, bring her killer to justice. 426 00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:18,919 Speaker 12: And so I have to focus on those things and 427 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:21,560 Speaker 12: try to turn off those emotions because if I, if 428 00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:24,440 Speaker 12: I let those emotions creep in I couldn't do my job. 429 00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:29,800 Speaker 1: Same same I find it very difficult at times to 430 00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:33,680 Speaker 1: move forward in a felony trial when I was looking 431 00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:35,840 Speaker 1: at the victims family on the front row, or using 432 00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:40,720 Speaker 1: photos of the victim. When you determine trajectory path, which 433 00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:44,320 Speaker 1: is very important in proving a case how it happened. 434 00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:48,800 Speaker 1: Because look, I fight a lot with Greg Morris. That's 435 00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:51,719 Speaker 1: because we're on two different sides. But what he is 436 00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:54,440 Speaker 1: saying is what a defense attorneys say if they're a 437 00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:59,000 Speaker 1: good one at trial. Okay, now, they will use as 438 00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:04,439 Speaker 1: is allowed under the Constitution. They will use any tidbit 439 00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:09,440 Speaker 1: of information to change the scenario, put out a different possibility, 440 00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:13,800 Speaker 1: such as, hey, wait a minute, look at this trajectory path. 441 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:17,400 Speaker 1: Maybe she attacked him. I mean, I don't know. It's ridiculous, right, 442 00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:23,480 Speaker 1: but it happens. So that is why you, the medical examiner, 443 00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:28,160 Speaker 1: must keep a clear head and determine everything you can 444 00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:32,080 Speaker 1: from the body. How do you go about determining, for instance, 445 00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:37,480 Speaker 1: because it will come into play the trajectory path of 446 00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:40,639 Speaker 1: the bullet that seared through her head? How do you 447 00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:43,040 Speaker 1: do that? And I want you to be specific. 448 00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:46,159 Speaker 12: Sure, Well, there are several things I can tell about 449 00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:49,840 Speaker 12: a gunshot wound in the body. Mind you, the body's 450 00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:52,879 Speaker 12: laying flat on the autopsy table. So based upon the 451 00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:55,919 Speaker 12: physical characteristics of the wounds, I can tell you what 452 00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:59,160 Speaker 12: is an entrance wound, what is an exit And then 453 00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:02,360 Speaker 12: I can sometimes give you range of fire. So as 454 00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:07,080 Speaker 12: a bullet leaves a gun with the bullet comes gas 455 00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:10,920 Speaker 12: comes spent gunpowder particles, and those will strike the skin 456 00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:13,800 Speaker 12: if the handgun is within three feet of the body. 457 00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:16,919 Speaker 12: So if there are marks of close range fire, I 458 00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:19,760 Speaker 12: can tell law enforcement that I see that on the body. 459 00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:23,000 Speaker 12: Then of course I can track where the bullet goes 460 00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:25,119 Speaker 12: through the body from how it enters on. 461 00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:30,080 Speaker 1: Hold on, hold on. Did you think you could just 462 00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:34,840 Speaker 1: blurt out things like I determine entry an exit and 463 00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:37,080 Speaker 1: we're going to be happy with that. No, we're not 464 00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:41,239 Speaker 1: happy with that. Explain how you determine what is the 465 00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:43,720 Speaker 1: entry and what is the exit. 466 00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:47,240 Speaker 11: Physical characteristics of the wound itself. 467 00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:49,200 Speaker 12: So when a bullet comes out of a gun, you know, 468 00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:51,360 Speaker 12: the rifling of the gun, whether it's a rifle or 469 00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:54,480 Speaker 12: a handgun, imparts the spin upon the bullet. So oftentimes 470 00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:57,680 Speaker 12: when a bullet enters a body without striking another target. 471 00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:02,360 Speaker 12: First it will have a very well circumscribed entrance, and 472 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:04,000 Speaker 12: then as a travels smooth body. 473 00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:09,840 Speaker 1: Smooth, okay, smoothin you're brilliant. We all know you're brilliant. 474 00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:13,280 Speaker 1: Are you saying? In regular people talk, the entry is 475 00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:16,640 Speaker 1: typically smooth and the exit is ragged. 476 00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:20,560 Speaker 12: Yeah, well circumscribed you exactly so. And then when a 477 00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:25,200 Speaker 12: bullet hits tissue at wobbles and has an irregular path 478 00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:28,560 Speaker 12: through the body, so the exit wound is often more irregular, 479 00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:31,760 Speaker 12: and as it comes out, it'll pull tissue with it. 480 00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:34,880 Speaker 12: So there's characteristics that you can see in bone and 481 00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:37,480 Speaker 12: tissue that allow me to say which way a bullet 482 00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:38,480 Speaker 12: traveled through the body. 483 00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:40,640 Speaker 1: Okay, hold on just a second. I want to follow 484 00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:44,600 Speaker 1: up on what you're saying, doctor Coin, Greg Morse, I 485 00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:50,200 Speaker 1: want you to look at this girl, look at Sheridan 486 00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:57,040 Speaker 1: on your monitor. Greg. Right now we're talking about the smooth, 487 00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:00,600 Speaker 1: which to me is diabolical to refer to a bullet 488 00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:04,920 Speaker 1: entering your head as a smooth entry. But that's how 489 00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:10,080 Speaker 1: it looks on the outside of most most bullet wound entries. 490 00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:14,760 Speaker 1: But think of punching a paper bag when you come 491 00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:19,200 Speaker 1: out the other side. Outcomes, her tissue, her brain matter, 492 00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:25,040 Speaker 1: her blood, the flesh comes outward. We're talking about an 493 00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:28,880 Speaker 1: eighteen year old girl, my little girl, Lucy, and my 494 00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:32,400 Speaker 1: son John David, eighteen and now her parents have to 495 00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:36,880 Speaker 1: deal with the entry and the exit wound in her head. 496 00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:41,880 Speaker 1: And you actually try to blame the park, the lighting, 497 00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:47,360 Speaker 1: the police officer, campus security, the university, fate free society. 498 00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:51,360 Speaker 7: Really well, it's not a matter of blame. It's a 499 00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:54,560 Speaker 7: matter of simple things that may have avoided this. That's 500 00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:57,960 Speaker 7: all because the immigration isn't why this happened. These are 501 00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:01,840 Speaker 7: simple things in society that time after time again just. 502 00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:02,840 Speaker 4: Aren't being addressed. 503 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:07,680 Speaker 7: And you know again, you're at an expensive university, a 504 00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:10,520 Speaker 7: common college place, and there's no one around. There's no 505 00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:13,880 Speaker 7: one for a student to call for help. There's no 506 00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:14,960 Speaker 7: one to do anything. 507 00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:18,560 Speaker 1: And you're right, listen, I'm sorry, Greg, Why would she 508 00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:21,520 Speaker 1: need to call for help? Oh, that's right, because a 509 00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:23,840 Speaker 1: guy jumped out in a ski mask with a gun. Okay, 510 00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:27,440 Speaker 1: I see, you're not getting you're gonna go down with 511 00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:28,240 Speaker 1: the ship. 512 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:32,120 Speaker 4: That's interesting is they met. 513 00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:38,200 Speaker 7: They matched apparently uh Medina with facial recognition software and 514 00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:42,680 Speaker 7: photos from ices file. So it's interesting that this person's 515 00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:46,120 Speaker 7: going around with rest warrants. They obviously have facial recognition 516 00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:49,360 Speaker 7: software in this community, but it did nothing for that 517 00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:52,280 Speaker 7: could have maybe stopped it before it got too violent. 518 00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:53,480 Speaker 4: That's my only point. 519 00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:59,080 Speaker 1: So you know, okay, Jamie, Mike Jamie, could you plays 520 00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:05,120 Speaker 1: at ice. It's ices problem and facial recognition because they 521 00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:08,000 Speaker 1: did not go out and find him there hiding in 522 00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:12,400 Speaker 1: the bushes in his scheme mask. Doctor Thomas Coin, another question, 523 00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:16,360 Speaker 1: when I refer to trajectory path, what is that and 524 00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:20,560 Speaker 1: why is it significant when proving a criminal case? And 525 00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:21,719 Speaker 1: to me, it's significant. 526 00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:23,840 Speaker 12: So from the autopsy, I can tell you where a 527 00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:26,440 Speaker 12: bullet passes through the body, so whether it entered in 528 00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:28,320 Speaker 12: the back or the front, or the left or the 529 00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:31,600 Speaker 12: right side, if it traveled upward or downward, and you 530 00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:35,920 Speaker 12: can piece that information together with information on scene to 531 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:38,120 Speaker 12: try to figure out where a shooter mat. 532 00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:41,920 Speaker 11: And standing at the time the gun was fired. So 533 00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:43,000 Speaker 11: it allows you. 534 00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:46,080 Speaker 1: To somehow when this really came to the forefront, Doctor Coin, 535 00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:50,560 Speaker 1: do you remember you and I analyzing the testimony at 536 00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:53,719 Speaker 1: the Alex Murdock trial because the defense was trying to 537 00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:58,160 Speaker 1: claim that because of the trajectory path, the angle that 538 00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:03,520 Speaker 1: the bullet entered Mag's body, and exited that the killer 539 00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:08,400 Speaker 1: must have been really really short, something crazy like that 540 00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:12,880 Speaker 1: in murdog is six foot something. Well, there's so many 541 00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:16,440 Speaker 1: ways to explain the trajectory path. For instance, the killer 542 00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:20,480 Speaker 1: could have been standing above the perp, above the victim. 543 00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:22,320 Speaker 1: The victim could have already been down on the ground. 544 00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:26,400 Speaker 1: It depends on the angle for all I know it. 545 00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:31,160 Speaker 1: There's so many variables. But if you had that other 546 00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:33,960 Speaker 1: evidence you were talking about, the corroborating evidence, such as 547 00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:39,080 Speaker 1: an eyewitness, the trajectory path can then corroborate what the 548 00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:40,600 Speaker 1: eyewitness says. 549 00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:45,240 Speaker 12: Explain sure, So, I mean if an eyewitness says they 550 00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:48,000 Speaker 12: saw the shooter standing behind the person who was shot, 551 00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:50,840 Speaker 12: firing the weapon, and I'm doing the autopsy, and I 552 00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:52,800 Speaker 12: show that the bullet entered the back of the head, 553 00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:56,200 Speaker 12: you know, traveled back to front with a slight you know, 554 00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:59,880 Speaker 12: left to right trajectory. You can piece that together with 555 00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:02,720 Speaker 12: the eyewitness account of where they say the shooter was standing, 556 00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:06,400 Speaker 12: and therefore it helps corroborate those pieces of evidence. 557 00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:11,360 Speaker 10: Such a great soul, a warm soul, would do anything 558 00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:13,280 Speaker 10: for you, just like the family. 559 00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:14,960 Speaker 1: I'm WGN. 560 00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:18,960 Speaker 2: Without warning, a masked man stepped out of the shadows, 561 00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:21,800 Speaker 2: armed with a gun and moving toward. 562 00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:26,399 Speaker 1: The group, joining us now tonight. Dan Corsantina a former 563 00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:32,000 Speaker 1: police chief, former sheriff, US Homeland Security senior advisor, private 564 00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:37,799 Speaker 1: investigator at dancorsantino dot com. Dan Corsantino, I'd like you 565 00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:44,560 Speaker 1: to weigh in on Greg Morris blaming facial recognition not 566 00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:47,360 Speaker 1: being used to apprehend Medina Medina earlier. 567 00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:50,680 Speaker 8: Well, first of all, I want to lay a foundation. 568 00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:55,640 Speaker 8: Jose Medina Medina is a criminal, and he came into 569 00:34:55,719 --> 00:35:01,439 Speaker 8: this country illegally, and he committed acts which at one 570 00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:05,759 Speaker 8: point can be deemed to be misdemeanors, but he escalated 571 00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:11,080 Speaker 8: up to this horrific crime of murder. Simply put, He's 572 00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:17,160 Speaker 8: a criminal. Second, the Chicago PD in this case took 573 00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:23,640 Speaker 8: it and were very very comprehensive in working with US 574 00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:27,520 Speaker 8: Customs and Border Control because they took the information they 575 00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:32,279 Speaker 8: had from the eyewitness. They took the information after they 576 00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:39,400 Speaker 8: matched the forty caliber showcasings, and they then had everything 577 00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:45,919 Speaker 8: in play to present two Customs and Border Control, which 578 00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:51,160 Speaker 8: then ran facial recognition. Immigration had this individual Medina Medina 579 00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:56,719 Speaker 8: in the system, and clearly they brought back what was 580 00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:05,120 Speaker 8: a positive identification of Medina Medina as the perpetrator in 581 00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:06,200 Speaker 8: the horrific crime. 582 00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:11,800 Speaker 1: How would facial recognition have helped if they couldn't find 583 00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:12,920 Speaker 1: him Dan. 584 00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:17,799 Speaker 8: Well, First of all, the facial recognition creates really a 585 00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:23,520 Speaker 8: unique digital template which is compared to the database, and 586 00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:29,479 Speaker 8: it stored and matched against other faces, hits, hints those 587 00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:33,480 Speaker 8: individuals with ICE that were coming across the border that 588 00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:38,839 Speaker 8: they stopped for whatever reason, perhaps a previous crime. They 589 00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:44,640 Speaker 8: went into the database and then though AI artificial intelligence 590 00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:51,359 Speaker 8: IDs that facihow recognition template, and what they really do 591 00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:55,280 Speaker 8: is they measure the distances between the eyes, nose shapes, 592 00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:58,560 Speaker 8: jaw lines, and they come up with what would appear 593 00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:02,880 Speaker 8: to be a mathematical reporence representation. If they did not 594 00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:06,480 Speaker 8: have that, they would have had to rely on the 595 00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:11,880 Speaker 8: forensics of the weapon, possibly the DNA off of the gun, 596 00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:16,520 Speaker 8: and or really really dug a little bit deeper to 597 00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:22,080 Speaker 8: try and identify any other video CCTV surveillance that they 598 00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:25,359 Speaker 8: had in this case. So it would have been very 599 00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:27,359 Speaker 8: difficult without the facial recognition. 600 00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:42,239 Speaker 1: Crime Stores with Nancy Gray, Sydney Sumner. We heard Greg 601 00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:46,879 Speaker 1: Morris blaming the police and campus security and the university, 602 00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:53,880 Speaker 1: But how is it thanks to the police that Medina. 603 00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:55,680 Speaker 1: Medina was actually apprehended. 604 00:37:57,440 --> 00:38:01,440 Speaker 5: Well, in conjunction with that facial recognition software, there was 605 00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:05,680 Speaker 5: lots of surveillance footage that captured him before and after 606 00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:09,879 Speaker 5: the shooting, and that footage tracked Medina all the way 607 00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:13,600 Speaker 5: to his home. That's where he took that ski mask off, 608 00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:19,080 Speaker 5: where that facial recognition came into play, so led him 609 00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:21,960 Speaker 5: straight to where he lived, were able to recognize him 610 00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:25,719 Speaker 5: off of previous ICE photos, and when they went in 611 00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:29,080 Speaker 5: for the arrest, both the gun, the clothing and the 612 00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:33,160 Speaker 5: ski mask that was worn and used during the commission 613 00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:35,919 Speaker 5: of the shooting was recovered from Medina's home. 614 00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:40,319 Speaker 1: So what about that, Greg Morris, I guess you're going 615 00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:41,960 Speaker 1: to say the police planted it. 616 00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:47,000 Speaker 4: No, I mean, you know, the one thing that what 617 00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:47,520 Speaker 4: I don't know. 618 00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:50,520 Speaker 7: It seems like the descriptions were somebody with a limp, 619 00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:54,920 Speaker 7: walking with a limp in all black, So that's pretty 620 00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:59,280 Speaker 7: generic stuff to get a search work on or something 621 00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:02,680 Speaker 7: like that. But you know, it's too early to tell 622 00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:05,879 Speaker 7: what the finer points of the investigation led to what 623 00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:08,600 Speaker 7: the probable cause was to get any warrants, how the 624 00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:11,680 Speaker 7: facial recognition plays in to this. 625 00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:14,080 Speaker 4: But you know, this is my point. 626 00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:17,520 Speaker 7: You know, whether it's facial recognition, license plate readers, law 627 00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:20,360 Speaker 7: enforcement has a lot of tools to piece together what 628 00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:25,920 Speaker 7: happened with these technologies from point of crime, backwards and 629 00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:31,759 Speaker 7: forwards of the parties involved, and unfortunately, you know, it 630 00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:33,360 Speaker 7: came too late for this young lady. 631 00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:34,880 Speaker 4: And that's all my point is. 632 00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:37,640 Speaker 7: You know, we should try to prohibit use these technologies 633 00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:40,239 Speaker 7: to stop this instead of reacting to it like we 634 00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:41,759 Speaker 7: do in America. 635 00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:45,920 Speaker 1: So okay, so stop the shooting before it happens. Okay, 636 00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:50,720 Speaker 1: note to self, Sidney Sumner. Yeah, we just hear Greg Morse, 637 00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:53,080 Speaker 1: and it's it's important we listen to what he's saying 638 00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:56,279 Speaker 1: because what he's say may very well be used as 639 00:39:56,320 --> 00:40:00,840 Speaker 1: a defense trial. So what you do as a prosecutor 640 00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:03,640 Speaker 1: you prepare your own case and then you anticipate what 641 00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:06,040 Speaker 1: the other side is going to do and shoot it 642 00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:12,520 Speaker 1: down before it becomes a problem. For instance, did police 643 00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:17,600 Speaker 1: law enforcement have pc probable cause to enter Medina Medina's home, 644 00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:21,399 Speaker 1: Because if they didn't, the ski mask, all the other 645 00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:26,840 Speaker 1: evidence will be thrown out of trial because of fruit 646 00:40:27,239 --> 00:40:32,160 Speaker 1: of the poisonous tree. A warrantless search without PC is 647 00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:35,360 Speaker 1: disallowed and all of the fruit of that search the 648 00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:42,200 Speaker 1: evidence also disallowed. So isn't it true that they saw 649 00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:47,120 Speaker 1: him on various surveillance cameras leaving the scene running same outfit. 650 00:40:47,560 --> 00:40:51,279 Speaker 1: They tracked him to his home and that is where 651 00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:57,680 Speaker 1: he's caught taking the mask, the mask off and we 652 00:40:57,800 --> 00:40:58,680 Speaker 1: see his face. 653 00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:04,200 Speaker 5: That's absolutely correct. They have footage all the way to 654 00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:08,160 Speaker 5: the inside of the lobby of the building where he lives, 655 00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:12,000 Speaker 5: and that's where Medina stops, rips off the mask and 656 00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:15,160 Speaker 5: they got that image of his face to later compare 657 00:41:15,239 --> 00:41:16,440 Speaker 5: for facial recognition. 658 00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:19,759 Speaker 1: Well, Greg Morris, who should I believe you are? My 659 00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:20,600 Speaker 1: lion eyes? 660 00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:24,520 Speaker 7: Well, you know, there's other aspects that could come about 661 00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:26,719 Speaker 7: in a case as a defense, like I note this 662 00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:30,360 Speaker 7: medine is in the hospital for tuberculosis. One of the 663 00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:33,240 Speaker 7: side effects that tuberculosis is it could affect your mental state. 664 00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:38,160 Speaker 7: Maybe there's some elements to this situation that involves that. Well, again, 665 00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:41,080 Speaker 7: when you're as you know, if your mental state is 666 00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:43,400 Speaker 7: not you don't know right from wrong. Because your mental 667 00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:47,719 Speaker 7: state is you're mentally insane, whether temporarily or permanently. 668 00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:51,240 Speaker 4: That's a defense. So you know, there are aspects. 669 00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:56,840 Speaker 1: It's amazing you are it's doctor Thomas Coin. Do you 670 00:41:56,960 --> 00:42:00,719 Speaker 1: know of a known link between tuberculosis and insanity? 671 00:42:01,239 --> 00:42:04,160 Speaker 12: Well, the other way usually can cause that, as if 672 00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:08,640 Speaker 12: you are a ccephalopathic from either severe disease or if 673 00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:12,680 Speaker 12: you have spread actually into the brain. But uh, you know, 674 00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:16,480 Speaker 12: I would argue, you know, the directed behavior of putting 675 00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:18,600 Speaker 12: on an actual ski mask and going out and putting 676 00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:21,480 Speaker 12: a crime shows that you're able to put two thoughts 677 00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:25,520 Speaker 12: together as opposed to just being crazier acting in an 678 00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:26,760 Speaker 12: encephalopathic state. 679 00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:28,080 Speaker 11: What do I know? 680 00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:31,680 Speaker 1: Now? Hold on, doctor Coin, When you throw around phrases 681 00:42:31,719 --> 00:42:37,120 Speaker 1: like encephalactic, you mean encephalitis, which is I think swelling 682 00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:39,600 Speaker 1: of the brain due to some sort of inflammation. And 683 00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:42,040 Speaker 1: if you were that sick, would you really be running 684 00:42:42,040 --> 00:42:44,440 Speaker 1: along the lakeside with a gun and a ski mask? 685 00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:47,200 Speaker 1: Wouldn't you be in the hospital connect to some machine. 686 00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:52,520 Speaker 11: Yeah, if you have directly you're going to have your brain. 687 00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:55,879 Speaker 1: It never ends with this guy. What what did you say, 688 00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:57,879 Speaker 1: doctor Corn I'm sorry, I. 689 00:42:57,840 --> 00:43:01,040 Speaker 12: Said, if you have direct involvement of the brain, with tuberculosis, 690 00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:05,040 Speaker 12: you're going to have a pretty significant brain swelling, which 691 00:43:05,560 --> 00:43:09,240 Speaker 12: tends to put a person that bound rather than acting 692 00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:14,440 Speaker 12: in a crazy like state. It depends upon not to 693 00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:17,879 Speaker 12: get specific, but where the disease is involving the brain, 694 00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:21,120 Speaker 12: but generally not associated with curriculosis. 695 00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:25,720 Speaker 1: And doctor Colhen, we're giving that defense way too much attention. 696 00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:27,640 Speaker 1: But you know what, actually you're right, because you know 697 00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:30,480 Speaker 1: you get one crazy grr that might buy into the 698 00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:36,600 Speaker 1: encephalitis tuberculosis medal insanity thing. Doctor Gerald Utter joining us, 699 00:43:36,640 --> 00:43:43,560 Speaker 1: Doctor Utter. They parents are of course bereft, and they're 700 00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:50,320 Speaker 1: somewhat blaming the school that the school didn't have safety precautions. 701 00:43:51,320 --> 00:43:55,960 Speaker 1: I think they're coming from a place of extreme pain, 702 00:43:56,520 --> 00:44:02,160 Speaker 1: extreme pain. What is your message? How I thought I 703 00:44:02,239 --> 00:44:04,680 Speaker 1: knew it all about grief when my fiance was murdered, 704 00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:08,600 Speaker 1: but now that I have the twins, I can't imagine 705 00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:15,000 Speaker 1: what these parents are going through. What is your advice 706 00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:16,280 Speaker 1: to them? Doctor? 707 00:44:16,719 --> 00:44:21,400 Speaker 6: Take it one minute, one hour, one breath at a time. 708 00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:23,840 Speaker 6: It feels you know. What we want to do is 709 00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:26,359 Speaker 6: we want to not blame, but we want to we 710 00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:30,000 Speaker 6: want to find a way to make it better for 711 00:44:30,080 --> 00:44:32,600 Speaker 6: maybe other students. So if they're if they're pointing their 712 00:44:32,640 --> 00:44:35,920 Speaker 6: attention to the university that that's an outlet of grief, 713 00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:38,560 Speaker 6: it may also be a way to activate them to say, 714 00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:40,440 Speaker 6: I don't want this to happen to anybody else. I 715 00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:43,319 Speaker 6: don't want my daughter's life to have been like her 716 00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:46,080 Speaker 6: life taken in vain. I want to kind of make 717 00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:49,920 Speaker 6: sure I can create something, a legacy, something to change 718 00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:53,000 Speaker 6: for the good, to protect other kids. 719 00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:54,920 Speaker 5: I can't even imagine. 720 00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:58,000 Speaker 6: There's no textbook answer, Nancy, there's no there's nothing that 721 00:44:58,040 --> 00:44:59,920 Speaker 6: I can say, Hey, why don't you do this? Beca 722 00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:02,360 Speaker 6: because it'll help you. I think they just have to 723 00:45:02,360 --> 00:45:05,839 Speaker 6: surround themselves with people who love and support them. They 724 00:45:05,880 --> 00:45:08,680 Speaker 6: have to take it one breath, one second, one minute, 725 00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:11,600 Speaker 6: one hour, one day at a time, and they have 726 00:45:11,719 --> 00:45:15,759 Speaker 6: to do what feels good for them. So down the road, 727 00:45:15,800 --> 00:45:17,960 Speaker 6: if they want to participate in a bereavement group of 728 00:45:18,040 --> 00:45:21,160 Speaker 6: other parents who have lost their children, if they want 729 00:45:21,200 --> 00:45:25,200 Speaker 6: to engage in psychotherapy separately, not necessarily together, mom and 730 00:45:25,320 --> 00:45:28,280 Speaker 6: dad can do it separately and then together. But again, 731 00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:31,239 Speaker 6: I think the key message is we're in survival mode 732 00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:34,440 Speaker 6: right now. They just have to do what feels good. 733 00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:36,719 Speaker 6: For them, And when I say good, I mean that 734 00:45:36,840 --> 00:45:39,000 Speaker 6: just allows them to take the next breath that allows 735 00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:41,839 Speaker 6: them to hydrate, get something to eat. They just have 736 00:45:41,920 --> 00:45:45,440 Speaker 6: to do whatever allows them to exist in this moment 737 00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:48,120 Speaker 6: and to stay together as much as they can because 738 00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:52,879 Speaker 6: we can't. We can't stay or monetize or figure out 739 00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:54,719 Speaker 6: what's going to make them feel better. We just have 740 00:45:54,840 --> 00:45:56,720 Speaker 6: to be there for them, and they have to serve 741 00:45:56,760 --> 00:45:58,239 Speaker 6: themselves with people who love them. 742 00:46:00,239 --> 00:46:03,920 Speaker 1: The parents, Thomas and Jessica Gorman, have flown to Chicago 743 00:46:04,120 --> 00:46:07,759 Speaker 1: to collect their daughter's body. They gave a statement, our 744 00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:11,800 Speaker 1: beloved daughter, Sheridan was taken from us this morning in Chicago. 745 00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:16,040 Speaker 1: There is no way to soften this. This was murder. 746 00:46:17,080 --> 00:46:21,040 Speaker 1: Sheridan was the light of our lives. She made people 747 00:46:21,080 --> 00:46:26,120 Speaker 1: feel seen, safe and loved simply by being who she was. 748 00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:30,960 Speaker 1: We trusted she would be safe. That trust was broken. 749 00:46:32,040 --> 00:46:38,719 Speaker 1: They are demanding answers, and also I hear where they're 750 00:46:38,719 --> 00:46:42,000 Speaker 1: coming from. Why was this guy still in the US? 751 00:46:42,040 --> 00:46:45,480 Speaker 1: Why was he here to start with? If the school 752 00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:50,600 Speaker 1: knew that students typically go on this walk. Not to 753 00:46:50,640 --> 00:46:55,000 Speaker 1: give any credence to Greg Morris, but a broken clock 754 00:46:55,280 --> 00:47:01,520 Speaker 1: is right twice a day. If they new students frequently 755 00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:05,799 Speaker 1: take this walk, why wasn't their campus security? He is right, 756 00:47:07,040 --> 00:47:11,120 Speaker 1: the university has tons of money. There's so many avenues 757 00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:15,440 Speaker 1: to explore, but this is murder and her parents are grieving. 758 00:47:16,600 --> 00:47:20,840 Speaker 1: If you know or think you know anything about Sheridan's murder, 759 00:47:21,160 --> 00:47:24,759 Speaker 1: please dial three one two seven, four four eight two 760 00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:28,759 Speaker 1: sixty three. Repeat three one two seven, four four eight 761 00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:33,239 Speaker 1: two sixty three. Nancy Gray signing off, goodbye friend,