1 00:00:04,559 --> 00:00:08,000 Speaker 1: Uh, nine eleven is in a couple of days. I'm 2 00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:10,799 Speaker 1: Robert Evans. This is it could happen here a podcast 3 00:00:10,960 --> 00:00:14,480 Speaker 1: about nine eleven. Um, well, as as Garrison said in 4 00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:17,439 Speaker 1: the intro, that we're not using it's about things falling apart, 5 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:21,279 Speaker 1: and boy did that happen on two things that fell apart? Yeah? 6 00:00:22,040 --> 00:00:26,960 Speaker 1: Um yeah. So this was originally going to be a 7 00:00:27,040 --> 00:00:29,880 Speaker 1: slightly cruder episode than it wound up being. But I'm 8 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:33,120 Speaker 1: just gonna I'm just gonna delve into the script and uh, 9 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:37,240 Speaker 1: Chris Garrison, you guys, just buckle in, because the reason 10 00:00:37,479 --> 00:00:39,239 Speaker 1: I have you both as guests on this is that 11 00:00:39,280 --> 00:00:42,600 Speaker 1: you are both too young to remember nine That's not true. 12 00:00:42,680 --> 00:00:46,520 Speaker 1: I remember, I remember why I remember? Were you like four? 13 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:50,800 Speaker 1: I hope? So yeah, I was four, But I remember 14 00:00:50,920 --> 00:00:54,360 Speaker 1: my mom like so she she was trying to explain 15 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:58,800 Speaker 1: the Pentagon, right, and so she has like a coaster 16 00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:01,560 Speaker 1: on the ground and she's making an airplane with her 17 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:06,320 Speaker 1: hand is just going into anyway. So, as I said, 18 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:09,480 Speaker 1: neither of you properly remember nine eleven. I I don't 19 00:01:09,520 --> 00:01:12,119 Speaker 1: remember that even I I was at the age where 20 00:01:12,120 --> 00:01:15,479 Speaker 1: every moment of it is burnt into my into my brain. 21 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:18,000 Speaker 1: As is the reaction. So I wanted you both on 22 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:22,360 Speaker 1: this because we're gonna talk about how nine eleven kind 23 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:26,920 Speaker 1: of became a cult um and how to maybe how 24 00:01:26,959 --> 00:01:28,759 Speaker 1: to maybe deal with that, and then we'll be chatting 25 00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:32,200 Speaker 1: about Glenn Beck's nine twelve project, which is something I'm 26 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:35,320 Speaker 1: sure neither of you are very familiar with. Now. In 27 00:01:35,319 --> 00:01:38,560 Speaker 1: its sixth season, the popular cartoons South Park ran an 28 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:41,000 Speaker 1: episode in which Jared Fogel, who was at that point 29 00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:44,200 Speaker 1: just a subway spokesman and not a convicted child molester, 30 00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:46,679 Speaker 1: came to town and announced the start of a new 31 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:50,360 Speaker 1: program to give everyone AIDS. Now, he was talking about 32 00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:53,360 Speaker 1: dietitians and personal trainers to help people lose weight, but 33 00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:56,520 Speaker 1: everybody heard AIDS the disease, which led to wacky hijinks. 34 00:01:56,560 --> 00:02:00,000 Speaker 1: That's the episode. It ends when everyone realizes they'd misunderstand 35 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:02,640 Speaker 1: good Fogel and they all laugh. Uh. This leads them 36 00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:05,680 Speaker 1: to realize that AIDS is finally funny, because things that 37 00:02:05,720 --> 00:02:09,040 Speaker 1: are tragic become funny exactly twenty two point three years 38 00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:11,880 Speaker 1: after they occur. That's the joke in the episode, and 39 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:14,760 Speaker 1: went on to become a minor little internet joke that, 40 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:17,240 Speaker 1: like you know, once you hit that twenty two year point, 41 00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:20,000 Speaker 1: you can laugh about something tragic. We are now at 42 00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:22,919 Speaker 1: like twenty one years and change since September eleven, two 43 00:02:22,919 --> 00:02:25,120 Speaker 1: thousand one, and I think if we're all honest, most 44 00:02:25,160 --> 00:02:26,799 Speaker 1: of us can admit that we've laughed at a lot 45 00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:28,959 Speaker 1: of nine eleven jokes. We're recording this the day the 46 00:02:29,040 --> 00:02:31,960 Speaker 1: Queen died, and people are like photoshopping her face to 47 00:02:32,040 --> 00:02:34,960 Speaker 1: be the Twin Towers, and it's so it's quite a 48 00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:37,880 Speaker 1: time on the old Internet. Now. I think the first 49 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:39,920 Speaker 1: I think the hardest at least that I ever laughed 50 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:41,679 Speaker 1: at nine eleven joke. I'm sure it's not the first 51 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:44,520 Speaker 1: time was this picture of Trump Tower that was posted 52 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:47,200 Speaker 1: to Twitter like right after he got inaugurated, with the 53 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:51,359 Speaker 1: text George Bush, do you thing um? Still an excellent 54 00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:54,880 Speaker 1: nine eleven joke? Now. The first person with any kind 55 00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:57,800 Speaker 1: of platform to making an eleven joke was the recently 56 00:02:57,840 --> 00:03:01,919 Speaker 1: deceased comedian Gilbert Gottfried. In September twenty nine, two thous one, 57 00:03:01,919 --> 00:03:04,000 Speaker 1: he took part in a roast of Hugh Hefner at 58 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:06,440 Speaker 1: the New York Friars Club, and I'm gonna play you 59 00:03:06,760 --> 00:03:09,639 Speaker 1: the audio of that right now, I have to catch 60 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:12,440 Speaker 1: up flight to California. I can't get a direct flight. 61 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:14,880 Speaker 1: They said they had to stop at the Empire State 62 00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:24,440 Speaker 1: Building party. Tame, extremely tame joke. Honestly not a great joke. UM, 63 00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:27,560 Speaker 1: but it went on too. It was It's probably like 64 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:30,080 Speaker 1: maybe the most famous and like kind of stand up 65 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:34,960 Speaker 1: history like bombs um. Gottfried and said himself said that 66 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:38,160 Speaker 1: he lost the audience more than anyone else ever has. UM. 67 00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:41,360 Speaker 1: I think it caused some career problems for him. Um. 68 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:44,320 Speaker 1: He later said, like a few weeks after, this was 69 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:47,640 Speaker 1: days after. So this is at the Friar's Club roast 70 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:51,360 Speaker 1: of Hugh Hefner on September twenty nine. Is this work 71 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:55,240 Speaker 1: too soon? It's from UM, well yeah, this I mean, 72 00:03:55,280 --> 00:03:57,280 Speaker 1: I don't I don't know that it originated there, but 73 00:03:57,360 --> 00:04:00,560 Speaker 1: this was the response to him. Um, and I think 74 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:03,280 Speaker 1: it's the first time I ever recall hearing someone say that. 75 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:06,360 Speaker 1: Godfried said that like the reason he decided to tell 76 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:08,280 Speaker 1: a joke this close to nine eleven was that he 77 00:04:08,320 --> 00:04:11,120 Speaker 1: was personally offended by the fact that anything could be 78 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:14,440 Speaker 1: too soon to make a joke about. Um. One of 79 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:16,719 Speaker 1: these is interesting about this A little side thing is 80 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:19,520 Speaker 1: that like, after bombing and getting shouted at by the audience, 81 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:22,839 Speaker 1: Godfried like decided to get them back by telling a 82 00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:26,240 Speaker 1: particularly long and foul version of the Aristocrats, which is 83 00:04:26,440 --> 00:04:31,400 Speaker 1: a meta joke about jokes primarily anyway. Um, it's basically 84 00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:33,760 Speaker 1: just being his foul mouth to shoot can possibly be 85 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:36,880 Speaker 1: to an audience. Um. And that that audio has been 86 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:40,359 Speaker 1: lost to time apparently, But boy, you can watch a 87 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:43,080 Speaker 1: fun documentary about the Aristocrats if you want to learn 88 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:46,400 Speaker 1: more about that now. I think the first good actual 89 00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:48,840 Speaker 1: comedy bit about nine eleven came out a little bit 90 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:51,039 Speaker 1: after this. This is about two weeks after the day 91 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:53,400 Speaker 1: and a couple of months later at like the three 92 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:57,080 Speaker 1: month point. South Park season five aired, Uh, and they 93 00:04:57,200 --> 00:05:01,000 Speaker 1: ran an episode about nine eleven. Um has been criticized 94 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:03,719 Speaker 1: rightly so because there's some kind of racist bits of 95 00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:08,760 Speaker 1: humor in there, using that's not surprising. Um. That said, 96 00:05:08,760 --> 00:05:11,640 Speaker 1: it's also kind of a valuable snapshot of history. For 97 00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:15,040 Speaker 1: one thing, The huge part of the episode is just 98 00:05:15,160 --> 00:05:17,960 Speaker 1: kind of like the Afghan child counterparts to the main 99 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:20,760 Speaker 1: characters in the show, walking around their town as everyone 100 00:05:20,839 --> 00:05:23,760 Speaker 1: is murdered by US air strikes. UM. So it's it 101 00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:26,880 Speaker 1: is not like the it stands kind of an opposition 102 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:30,120 Speaker 1: to sort of the kind of like bootlicking responses you 103 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:33,000 Speaker 1: got for For some context, the show The West Wing, 104 00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:35,839 Speaker 1: which is the favorite show of everybody who runs anything 105 00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:39,400 Speaker 1: in politics right now, ran an emergency nine eleven episode 106 00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:41,880 Speaker 1: like a couple of weeks after the attack, which was 107 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:44,320 Speaker 1: the kind of turnaround you didn't do in TV at 108 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:46,520 Speaker 1: that point in time. So you put in a ton 109 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:49,160 Speaker 1: of effort to have this special nine eleven episode of 110 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:52,480 Speaker 1: The West Wing. Um that number one. In the alternate 111 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:55,040 Speaker 1: West Wing universe, there's no nine eleven. There's like some 112 00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:58,320 Speaker 1: vague like there's basically basically the episode focus on like 113 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:00,080 Speaker 1: a bunch of kids on a tour getting stuck in 114 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:02,640 Speaker 1: the White House because it locks down because some vague 115 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:05,840 Speaker 1: terrorist attack thing happens in a fake country they made up. 116 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:08,200 Speaker 1: So when the West Wing needed to talk about Muslims, 117 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:11,360 Speaker 1: um and kind of like the breakout piece of this. 118 00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:14,240 Speaker 1: While there's two breakouts, one of them is a very 119 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:17,279 Speaker 1: racist retelling of the story of Isaac and Ishmael that 120 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:21,160 Speaker 1: explains like why Muslims are always so angry all the time, um. 121 00:06:21,240 --> 00:06:23,599 Speaker 1: And then the White House Press Lady C. J. Craig 122 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:27,720 Speaker 1: goes on a rant about how awesome the intelligence apparatus 123 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:30,920 Speaker 1: is and how like what good people uh CIA agents are, 124 00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:34,280 Speaker 1: and how the best thing to do for politics sometimes 125 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:37,279 Speaker 1: is to have a guy dressed as a waiter murder 126 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:40,359 Speaker 1: somebody with a silence pistol like it was out of 127 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:43,960 Speaker 1: its mind, unhinged. That's the fucking like. So the fact 128 00:06:43,960 --> 00:06:45,720 Speaker 1: that South Park does an episode that's like, yeah, we're 129 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:47,919 Speaker 1: gonna murder a bunch of people in Afghanistan for no 130 00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:51,000 Speaker 1: reason is like, not a not a bad response, not 131 00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:54,159 Speaker 1: a bad thing to recognize about that day. Um, the 132 00:06:54,160 --> 00:06:57,719 Speaker 1: other things that are like pretty good or pretty I 133 00:06:57,760 --> 00:07:01,359 Speaker 1: think meaningful sort of bits in that episode. It opens 134 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:03,640 Speaker 1: with all of the kids at the bus stop wearing 135 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:06,320 Speaker 1: gas masks as they stand in line for the bus. 136 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:09,520 Speaker 1: There's a piece in that episode that kind of sticks 137 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:12,680 Speaker 1: with me today still, um that I'm gonna play for 138 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:18,320 Speaker 1: you guys. I don't know, I always found that bit fun. 139 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:21,160 Speaker 1: So when the school bus arrives, there's a cop on it, 140 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:24,400 Speaker 1: searching bags and confiscating items that might be used as weapons. 141 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:27,880 Speaker 1: The school classroom doors are reinforced with a massive military 142 00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:30,920 Speaker 1: grade lock, which resonated more in a time when like 143 00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:34,240 Speaker 1: school shootings weren't a constant thing. Um, and it it 144 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:36,720 Speaker 1: kind of hit me because, you know, when this episode 145 00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:38,280 Speaker 1: came out and I watched it when it came out, 146 00:07:38,280 --> 00:07:41,440 Speaker 1: I was at middle school, Clark Middle School in Plain, oh, Texas, 147 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:45,120 Speaker 1: and on nine eleven and twelve, the attacks were like 148 00:07:45,160 --> 00:07:48,360 Speaker 1: the only topic of discussion that anyone had. And I 149 00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:50,360 Speaker 1: have this vivid memory of a couple of girls in 150 00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:53,480 Speaker 1: my US history class weeping because they were scared that 151 00:07:53,520 --> 00:07:56,440 Speaker 1: Al Qaeda was coming for our schools next. Um, Like, 152 00:07:56,520 --> 00:07:59,240 Speaker 1: this was a a very real worry for kids that 153 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:03,480 Speaker 1: I grew up with of what like Midland, Texas or something. No, 154 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:05,880 Speaker 1: it was, indeed, it's a big school. But like, I 155 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:09,080 Speaker 1: don't I'm certain that fucking Osama bin Laden had never 156 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:13,080 Speaker 1: heard the name plane of Texas, let alone the Joatha 157 00:08:13,200 --> 00:08:18,200 Speaker 1: thing with like anytime a plane was like going down, 158 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 1: people would point at it and be like, oh my god, 159 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:25,600 Speaker 1: yeah yeah, um No. That was definitely a meme and 160 00:08:25,640 --> 00:08:27,920 Speaker 1: there was, you know, one of the most famous ones 161 00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:32,079 Speaker 1: was this this video called Triumph Dot a v I 162 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:34,679 Speaker 1: that started to spread on the Something Awful forums. That 163 00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:37,800 Speaker 1: was just footage of the September eleven attacks set to 164 00:08:37,880 --> 00:08:43,040 Speaker 1: yakety sacks um. And again, these were all kind of 165 00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:46,200 Speaker 1: the comedy that that you know, the South Park put 166 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:48,520 Speaker 1: out here and that you saw, and stuff like the 167 00:08:48,559 --> 00:08:53,880 Speaker 1: Triumph video were reactions to how fucking seriously everybody else 168 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:56,000 Speaker 1: took nine eleven right. Like I have to, I have 169 00:08:56,040 --> 00:08:58,240 Speaker 1: to point out that like watching an episode like this 170 00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:02,520 Speaker 1: or watching something like Trump felt like legitimately transgressive in 171 00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:05,400 Speaker 1: the days and weeks after nine eleven, because it was 172 00:09:05,480 --> 00:09:08,079 Speaker 1: kind of a as we'll talk about, had turned into 173 00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:11,160 Speaker 1: kind of like a secular cult um. And I think 174 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:13,480 Speaker 1: people who were just a few years old then or 175 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:17,040 Speaker 1: born after nine eleven missed this part of nine eleven. Um. 176 00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:19,560 Speaker 1: I think you inherited the wars and the intrusions on 177 00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:22,839 Speaker 1: civil liberties and the creeping fascism, but not the derangement 178 00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:26,000 Speaker 1: by terror that had preceded it. Like everybody's permanently deranged 179 00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:28,640 Speaker 1: from nine eleven, But you didn't really get to know 180 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:32,800 Speaker 1: people before that kind of happened and drove a lot 181 00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:35,320 Speaker 1: of them mad. As a kid, it was like a 182 00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:38,880 Speaker 1: strange and exciting and scary moment. But I think my 183 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:40,679 Speaker 1: parents and I think the people who were kind of 184 00:09:40,679 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 1: in their age range, um, completely lost their minds, and 185 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:46,400 Speaker 1: oddly that that South Park episode has kind of the 186 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:49,920 Speaker 1: best depiction of that too. There's a scene in which 187 00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:52,080 Speaker 1: stand who is one of the main characters they're all 188 00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:55,000 Speaker 1: like middle school kids, walks into his house and sees 189 00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:58,640 Speaker 1: his mom like lying on the couch staring blankly ahead 190 00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:02,720 Speaker 1: UM and just like weeping. She's surrounded by tissues. She's 191 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:06,120 Speaker 1: been crying for days, UM and as her husband says, 192 00:10:06,160 --> 00:10:08,760 Speaker 1: she's just been watching CNN for like the last eight 193 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:11,320 Speaker 1: weeks straight. And the the image of her just kind 194 00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:13,400 Speaker 1: of like lying on the couch staring at the TV 195 00:10:13,720 --> 00:10:16,240 Speaker 1: is I can remember every adult that I knew as 196 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:18,880 Speaker 1: a kid doing that, and it really did go on 197 00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:22,240 Speaker 1: for days, Like people moved around as if they were 198 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:24,520 Speaker 1: like in kind of a shocked stupor. I'm sure there's 199 00:10:24,559 --> 00:10:28,959 Speaker 1: places where this wasn't the case, UM, But for my family, 200 00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:31,560 Speaker 1: who were very very conservative people, and I think for 201 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:34,760 Speaker 1: people particularly who lived closer to the attacks, like it 202 00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:38,440 Speaker 1: was just this period of um like post traumatic stress 203 00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:59,000 Speaker 1: for the entire country. I think a good amount of 204 00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:01,360 Speaker 1: research backs up the act that this it had this 205 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:03,600 Speaker 1: kind of and I think it is hard to understand 206 00:11:03,640 --> 00:11:05,840 Speaker 1: if you weren't there impact on people. I found a 207 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:08,960 Speaker 1: Pew Research study that I'm gonna quote from now. Our 208 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:11,280 Speaker 1: first survey following the attacks went into the field just 209 00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:14,720 Speaker 1: days after nine eleven. From September thirteenth seventeenth, two thousand one, 210 00:11:14,760 --> 00:11:17,800 Speaker 1: A sizable majority of adults said they felt depressed. Nearly 211 00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:20,600 Speaker 1: half said they had difficulty concentrating, and a third said 212 00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:23,040 Speaker 1: they had trouble sleeping. It was an era in which 213 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:26,520 Speaker 1: television was still the public's dominant news source. Said they 214 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:28,839 Speaker 1: got most of their news about the attacks from television, 215 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:31,520 Speaker 1: compared with just five percent who got their news online, 216 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:33,960 Speaker 1: and the televised images of death and destruction had a 217 00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:36,959 Speaker 1: powerful impact. Around nine and ten Americans agreed with the 218 00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:39,640 Speaker 1: statement I feel sad when watching TV coverage of the 219 00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:43,800 Speaker 1: terrorist attacks. A sizable majority seventy percent found it frightening 220 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:47,240 Speaker 1: to watch, but most did so anyway. Fear was widespread, 221 00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:49,560 Speaker 1: not just in the days immediately after the attacks, but 222 00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:52,760 Speaker 1: throughout the fall of two thousand one. Most Americans said 223 00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:55,400 Speaker 1: they were very twenty eight percent or somewhat forty five 224 00:11:55,440 --> 00:11:58,280 Speaker 1: percent worried about another attack. When asked a year later 225 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:00,640 Speaker 1: to describe how their lives changed in a age a way. 226 00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:03,440 Speaker 1: About half the adults said they felt more afraid, more careful, 227 00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:06,000 Speaker 1: and more distrustful or more vulnerable as a result of 228 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:09,760 Speaker 1: the attacks. And I think you can't separate this because 229 00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:11,840 Speaker 1: the main people were talking about here and we're talking 230 00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:14,440 Speaker 1: about the response to this. When we're talking about the 231 00:12:14,440 --> 00:12:17,320 Speaker 1: people who got to make decisions, it's boomers, right, which 232 00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:18,880 Speaker 1: is not all that different from how it is today, 233 00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:21,800 Speaker 1: but even it was even more so boomers then. And 234 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:24,240 Speaker 1: you know, my parents and the people of their generation 235 00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:27,079 Speaker 1: are all children of the Cold War. They both grew up, 236 00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:30,960 Speaker 1: my parents on different military bases. Um. And I can remember, 237 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:33,640 Speaker 1: you know, my dad told me stories about doing like 238 00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:35,839 Speaker 1: duck and coverage drills as a kid, like literally hiding 239 00:12:35,920 --> 00:12:39,520 Speaker 1: under a desk to get ready for an atomic bomb. Um. 240 00:12:39,559 --> 00:12:42,400 Speaker 1: His family like went out into the countryside during the 241 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:44,800 Speaker 1: Cuban missile crisis to hide because they were afraid all 242 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:46,840 Speaker 1: the cities we're going to get nooked. And this is 243 00:12:46,880 --> 00:12:49,920 Speaker 1: not These are not uncommon experiences. So you have to think, 244 00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:53,760 Speaker 1: like all of the all of the adults were either 245 00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:56,600 Speaker 1: very close to this period or had spent most of 246 00:12:56,640 --> 00:13:00,480 Speaker 1: their formative years, like constantly scared of being ordered by 247 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:04,120 Speaker 1: a nuclear weapon. Um. There have been clinical like studies 248 00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:06,440 Speaker 1: and stuff that have shown that that fear of nuclear 249 00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:09,360 Speaker 1: annihilation is a major factor and anxiety like it's not 250 00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:13,000 Speaker 1: ever been properly I think explained how much that fucked 251 00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:16,640 Speaker 1: up that generation. But what you had is all these 252 00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:19,120 Speaker 1: people who had spent the first couple of decades of 253 00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:22,120 Speaker 1: their lives living with the sort of damocles over their heads. 254 00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:25,040 Speaker 1: And then the war ends, right, the Cold War ends, 255 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:28,880 Speaker 1: the USSR falls apart, and suddenly people aren't talking about 256 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:32,760 Speaker 1: nuclear warfare for the first time in anybody's memory. Um, 257 00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:36,600 Speaker 1: And I think for most of that generation they felt 258 00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:38,960 Speaker 1: safe for the first time. There was this kind of 259 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:43,400 Speaker 1: celebration that was pretty bipartisan that capitalism and democracy had 260 00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:45,720 Speaker 1: triumphed and that like this kind of horror that had 261 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:49,200 Speaker 1: stalked through their childhood had been defeated. When people like 262 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:52,360 Speaker 1: Francis fuki Yama talked about the end of history, what 263 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:55,040 Speaker 1: Fukiyama meant was that liberal democracy was kind of, in 264 00:13:55,080 --> 00:13:57,760 Speaker 1: his eyes, the end of the evolutionary road for states, 265 00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:00,600 Speaker 1: which is a flawed idea, but the intern pritation that 266 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:03,640 Speaker 1: I think people like my parents had was that we 267 00:14:03,679 --> 00:14:06,400 Speaker 1: didn't need to worry anymore, right, like that that's the 268 00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:08,120 Speaker 1: end of history, right, our way of life had one, 269 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:10,600 Speaker 1: and we like we we didn't need to worry. And 270 00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:14,120 Speaker 1: in nine eleven happens and suddenly this decade or so 271 00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:17,160 Speaker 1: of relief from that all ends in a minute, and 272 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:19,160 Speaker 1: all of that fear that they lived with their whole 273 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:22,720 Speaker 1: lives came roaring back with abandoned. Nine eleven was like 274 00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:25,720 Speaker 1: the emotional equivalent of splitting an atom. And and the 275 00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:28,480 Speaker 1: Internet that was released by that is going to be 276 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:31,400 Speaker 1: used for something, right. I want to kind of touch 277 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 1: on that a little bit, because I mean, I obviously 278 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:35,920 Speaker 1: don't remember the nineties because I wasn't there, And it 279 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:38,160 Speaker 1: is such a fascinating idea to me of like this 280 00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:41,840 Speaker 1: time where nero liberalism kind of reached their paradise, like 281 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:43,880 Speaker 1: like we didn't we could we we? We we did 282 00:14:43,920 --> 00:14:48,000 Speaker 1: the thing. We found the spot And how that you know, 283 00:14:48,240 --> 00:14:49,840 Speaker 1: talk about like the edge of chaos theory, how it 284 00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:51,880 Speaker 1: was built up to this super high point and then 285 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:54,359 Speaker 1: all because because it got so high and then immediately 286 00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:58,080 Speaker 1: crumbled um and shot down. And there's this thing that 287 00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:02,360 Speaker 1: one of my favorite there's graat. Morrison talks about how 288 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:06,880 Speaker 1: nine eleven kind of became this moment where the world 289 00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:10,120 Speaker 1: of imagination and the world of like the lowest material 290 00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:15,560 Speaker 1: visceral reality crashed into each other. Um. And he says 291 00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:19,000 Speaker 1: a quote the collapse expressed itself in the material world 292 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:21,200 Speaker 1: when the twin towers of the World Trade Center were 293 00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:25,680 Speaker 1: reduced to dust by determined extremists. When cement occurred, reality 294 00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:29,720 Speaker 1: and fiction began their slow collapse into one another. After 295 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:33,280 Speaker 1: the fall of the towers, quote unquote, reality became more fictional, 296 00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:38,480 Speaker 1: and quote unquote fiction became more realistic, I think plausible, realistic, 297 00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:43,200 Speaker 1: superhero movies like The Dark Night films, fake news, deep fakes, 298 00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:48,040 Speaker 1: a r VR, and the rise of magical thinking. Um. 299 00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:50,120 Speaker 1: And I would extra plate that out to like stuff 300 00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:52,520 Speaker 1: like you know Q and on um and you know 301 00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:56,720 Speaker 1: the how just these images that we thought were only 302 00:15:57,440 --> 00:16:03,120 Speaker 1: viewable in film and television, uh, became descended down onto 303 00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:08,240 Speaker 1: the onto the dirtiest, most visceral material plane. Um. And 304 00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:10,760 Speaker 1: then things that were fake, like this idea like the 305 00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:13,400 Speaker 1: Perfect Nineties, It's gonna be this is gonna continue continue 306 00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:17,200 Speaker 1: like dis forever that fiction. Uh, it felt almost more 307 00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:18,960 Speaker 1: real like it like that that that should have been 308 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:22,360 Speaker 1: what's real and it's not anymore. Yeah, it feels like 309 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:24,360 Speaker 1: there's an alternate and I think that's part of why 310 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:27,640 Speaker 1: liberals are still so goddamn in love with the West wing. 311 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:30,040 Speaker 1: And by the way I talked about liberals, my parents, 312 00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:33,000 Speaker 1: who loved Ronald Reagan more than life itself, watched every 313 00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:35,200 Speaker 1: episode of that show. They thought it was wonderful. And 314 00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:38,720 Speaker 1: the Republicans are always portrayed very sympathetically on the West wing. Right, 315 00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:42,680 Speaker 1: it's very much this noble opposition sort of idea um 316 00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:47,680 Speaker 1: and uh, the the that I think there's something in 317 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:50,960 Speaker 1: that that there's lists almost since that we've been locked 318 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:54,560 Speaker 1: out of the right reality. And that's that's what you know, 319 00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:57,000 Speaker 1: That's what liberals are constantly harkening back to with with 320 00:16:57,080 --> 00:17:00,120 Speaker 1: nine eleven. But it's also or with with stuff at 321 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:03,960 Speaker 1: the West wing. But it's also like what conservatives. I 322 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:06,000 Speaker 1: think for a while they were looking for that. I 323 00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:10,919 Speaker 1: think that's what George W. Bush promised and failed to deliver. Um. 324 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:13,600 Speaker 1: It's what they were hoping to get with Romney and 325 00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:16,200 Speaker 1: when that didn't happen. I think part of what's going 326 00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:18,359 Speaker 1: on with Trump is this desire. Part of the desire 327 00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:21,400 Speaker 1: to burn it all down is the inability to get 328 00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:25,680 Speaker 1: back to this imagined If you're talking about the collapse 329 00:17:25,840 --> 00:17:28,480 Speaker 1: of reality and fiction going into each other, that's what 330 00:17:28,560 --> 00:17:32,880 Speaker 1: Donald Trump represents. He is this so fictional person that 331 00:17:33,119 --> 00:17:35,600 Speaker 1: in order to meet this new world of reality and 332 00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:38,359 Speaker 1: fiction the same thing, you need somebody that under that, 333 00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:42,000 Speaker 1: that represents that. Um So they turned to him because 334 00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:45,080 Speaker 1: he he was meeting the way they saw the world 335 00:17:45,119 --> 00:17:47,720 Speaker 1: was going. The reality and fiction are going into each other, 336 00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:52,000 Speaker 1: So you're going to get the reality television president who 337 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:55,320 Speaker 1: who who? Who kind of embodies that essence on a 338 00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:58,879 Speaker 1: very very visceral level. And I think that's part of 339 00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:01,399 Speaker 1: why when you have of nine eleven happen, you have 340 00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:05,960 Speaker 1: all of this energy released. Both parties kind of come 341 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:09,679 Speaker 1: together in this idea that the United States should strike 342 00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:12,680 Speaker 1: back and that we were at war. It's rightly pointed 343 00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:15,400 Speaker 1: out by people that particularly protests against the Iraq war 344 00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:18,520 Speaker 1: were massive, and they were, they were historically large. But 345 00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:22,520 Speaker 1: President Bush was also the most popular president of our 346 00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:25,720 Speaker 1: lifetime briefly, and it's because people were in line behind 347 00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:28,040 Speaker 1: this idea that we need to hit someone well and 348 00:18:28,119 --> 00:18:31,000 Speaker 1: and I think something that's important about this that's completely 349 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:34,440 Speaker 1: forgotten is that the invasion of Afghanistan there was like 350 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:36,959 Speaker 1: no protests. There were there were a few, but like 351 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:40,280 Speaker 1: the left imploded, Like here's I'm going to read a 352 00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:44,000 Speaker 1: quote from Doug Henwood. This is an attack on us. 353 00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:47,359 Speaker 1: There is a near certainty that something will be done soon. 354 00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:50,960 Speaker 1: Clearly considerable use of force will have to be used 355 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:56,399 Speaker 1: to capture these motherfucker's um like Adolph read He's like 356 00:18:56,480 --> 00:18:59,479 Speaker 1: talking about how like there's gonna have to be military action. 357 00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:02,040 Speaker 1: Like a bunch of the people from like who like 358 00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:05,960 Speaker 1: the the old school, like anti Vietnam War protesters like 359 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:09,080 Speaker 1: from STS are like, well, we don't oppose all wars, 360 00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:11,600 Speaker 1: we just opposed bad wars, so like here we should 361 00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:15,520 Speaker 1: go in vadive guys like everyone lost their minds. Well, 362 00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:17,800 Speaker 1: and I wanna what I really the core of when 363 00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:20,359 Speaker 1: I talked about today is why that happened. Because I 364 00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:23,359 Speaker 1: think there's on particularly kind of some of the more 365 00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:26,520 Speaker 1: superficial left wing analysis of this, this idea that like 366 00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:31,000 Speaker 1: George Bush did what he did in response because he's 367 00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:34,280 Speaker 1: like this Christian holy warrior um. And there's a couple 368 00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:36,240 Speaker 1: of reasons people do this, including the fact that he 369 00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:38,639 Speaker 1: once referred to the invasion of Iraq as a crusade, 370 00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:41,880 Speaker 1: but as a general rule, what Bush did was not 371 00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:44,560 Speaker 1: because of his Christianity and had nothing to do with 372 00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:48,040 Speaker 1: any kind of conflict with Islam in particular. What it 373 00:19:48,359 --> 00:19:52,120 Speaker 1: was was the reaction of a group of a kind 374 00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:57,000 Speaker 1: of fundamentalists, fundamentalists of belief in the American state, reacting 375 00:19:57,040 --> 00:19:59,960 Speaker 1: to an attack on the sanctity of that kind of idea. 376 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:03,800 Speaker 1: Uh um. And this is this is you know why 377 00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:06,040 Speaker 1: all these liberals were on board at least with you know, 378 00:20:06,119 --> 00:20:10,119 Speaker 1: the strike on Afghanistan or attacking Afghanistan. Christopher Hitchens probably 379 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:12,520 Speaker 1: no one embodies like what happened to a lot of 380 00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:15,600 Speaker 1: the left better than Hitchens. Hitchens was a well known 381 00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:19,600 Speaker 1: liberal journalist. He wrote an excoriating book about Henry Kissinger. Right, 382 00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:22,439 Speaker 1: he's one of these people who was criticizing the Empire, 383 00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:25,560 Speaker 1: who was attacking it for its excesses. For builds his 384 00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:28,439 Speaker 1: career on that and the nine eleven happens. And the 385 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:30,359 Speaker 1: first big thing he does is he puts out a 386 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:34,719 Speaker 1: massive column titled Bush's Secularist Triumph, in which he argues 387 00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:37,720 Speaker 1: that the war on Terror is not a crusade, but 388 00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:40,919 Speaker 1: a battle to keep religion in public power separate. And 389 00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:42,800 Speaker 1: I want to quote now from a study published in 390 00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:46,440 Speaker 1: the Journal of Political Theology by William Kavanav of DePaul University. 391 00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:50,960 Speaker 1: It's kitled the War on Terror Secular or Sacred. There 392 00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:52,879 Speaker 1: may be some Christians who think that we are fighting 393 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:54,639 Speaker 1: for Jesus, but the battle is being one in the 394 00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:58,399 Speaker 1: name of secularism. George Bush may subjectively be a Christian, 395 00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:00,879 Speaker 1: but he and the US armed for Is have objectively 396 00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:03,160 Speaker 1: done more for secularism than the whole of the American 397 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:07,240 Speaker 1: agnostic community combined and doubled. While the left makes apologies 398 00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:10,320 Speaker 1: for religious terrorists, the right supports their obliteration to protect 399 00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:13,680 Speaker 1: our secular state. Secularism is not just a smug attitude. 400 00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:16,720 Speaker 1: It is a possible way of democratic and pluralistic life 401 00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:20,119 Speaker 1: that only became thinkable after several wars and revolutions had 402 00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:22,840 Speaker 1: ruthlessly smashed the hold of clergy on the state. We 403 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:25,639 Speaker 1: are now in the middle of another such war and revolution, 404 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:29,120 Speaker 1: and the liberals have gone a wall. That's Kavanaugh's summary 405 00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:33,280 Speaker 1: of hitchens is article, But like what's going on there 406 00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:36,240 Speaker 1: is really interesting because Hitchens is proceeding as an a 407 00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:39,480 Speaker 1: priori assumption that the attack on the Twin Towers is 408 00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:42,320 Speaker 1: an attempt by a theocracy to take over and destroy 409 00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:46,399 Speaker 1: a secular state, rather than an attempt to damage economically 410 00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:49,760 Speaker 1: a military enemy um and goaded into a war that 411 00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:53,440 Speaker 1: would weaken it socially, militarily and economically, which is exactly 412 00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:56,600 Speaker 1: what had actually happened. The liberals that Hitchens attacks as 413 00:21:56,680 --> 00:21:59,840 Speaker 1: former allies are basically saying, don't take the bait right, 414 00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:02,320 Speaker 1: don't do the thing that he wants you to do, 415 00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:04,720 Speaker 1: because it will it will lead to the results he 416 00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:07,760 Speaker 1: wants to achieve. All Hitchens can see is that, like 417 00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:10,600 Speaker 1: Muslim extremists are scary and they want to hurt him 418 00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:14,639 Speaker 1: as an atheist, religion is doing things that hurt me, 419 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:17,920 Speaker 1: So I must destroy the people who believe in this city. Yeah. 420 00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:21,159 Speaker 1: And it's interesting because everybody, all of the people who 421 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:23,920 Speaker 1: are kind of on the side of this civic religion, 422 00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:26,640 Speaker 1: which is which is why they're responding, because they're they're 423 00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:29,560 Speaker 1: civic religion has been attacked and this strike on the towers, 424 00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:31,920 Speaker 1: they all find kind of different ways to justify it. 425 00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:34,439 Speaker 1: Hitchens is a prominent atheist, so it makes sense that 426 00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:37,280 Speaker 1: he kind of sees it as a fight against theocracy. 427 00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:39,320 Speaker 1: If you go through a lot of footage of news 428 00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:41,520 Speaker 1: anchors in the immediate wake of the attack Garrison, you 429 00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:43,200 Speaker 1: and I were doing this a couple of nights ago. 430 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:47,160 Speaker 1: There were numerous references that the Twin Towers, which were 431 00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:51,440 Speaker 1: a symbol of capitalism, and that they represent capitalist and 432 00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:55,159 Speaker 1: American supremacy over capital It's like it's it's it's like 433 00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:59,760 Speaker 1: the American supremacy of the economic system and and and 434 00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:02,840 Speaker 1: like a reified symbol of capitalism. Almost like it's like 435 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:07,280 Speaker 1: it's like an idol to like to the god of capital. Yeah, 436 00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:09,680 Speaker 1: there's a there's a number of different things you can 437 00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:12,200 Speaker 1: find making this point. But in a column that published 438 00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:15,879 Speaker 1: on nine twelve, uh, the Washington Post editorial board wrote, 439 00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:18,600 Speaker 1: for three decades, the Twin Towers of New York's World 440 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:21,360 Speaker 1: Trade Center stood as the symbol of American economic might, 441 00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:24,240 Speaker 1: as powerful an icon for capitalism as the Statue of 442 00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:29,400 Speaker 1: Liberty is for freedom. Exactly, exactly. Yeah, Yeah, it's amazing. 443 00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:31,679 Speaker 1: No people were just saying this ship the day. You 444 00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:33,960 Speaker 1: ever think that's funny about it. It's like no one 445 00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:38,000 Speaker 1: thought this before, Like these are cheap fucking buildings, like 446 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:41,720 Speaker 1: the world trades like a license Like it's literally it's 447 00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:45,080 Speaker 1: just like license is a name is license out. It's 448 00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:47,639 Speaker 1: like that, you know, But that doesn't because again, what 449 00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:50,679 Speaker 1: what you by saying this when they're saying like, for 450 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:53,120 Speaker 1: three decades, this was the symbol of American economic might. 451 00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:55,960 Speaker 1: People and I keep going back to my parents, but 452 00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:58,879 Speaker 1: I think they represent a lot of Americans saw the 453 00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:01,919 Speaker 1: defeat of the so be A Union as being achieved 454 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:04,760 Speaker 1: by the U. S economy, by capital, right, and and 455 00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:06,600 Speaker 1: that's the thing that ended history. That's the thing that 456 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:08,800 Speaker 1: got them to their neo liver paradise. It's the thing 457 00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:11,600 Speaker 1: that saved them from the nukes. And so by taking 458 00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:15,880 Speaker 1: these towers down, bin Laden basically killed Superman. Right, That's 459 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:20,520 Speaker 1: how they're reacting to it. Um. George Bush and Christopher 460 00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:23,520 Speaker 1: Hitchins and the Washington Post editorial board, they all saw 461 00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:26,920 Speaker 1: their support for war not as as not based in religion. 462 00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:29,560 Speaker 1: All of them would have denied this right, Um. But 463 00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:32,480 Speaker 1: Kavanaugh argues that they were motivated primarily by what he 464 00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:34,760 Speaker 1: calls the civil religion of the United States, which is 465 00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:36,440 Speaker 1: why I've been using that term. I'm gonna quote from 466 00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:39,640 Speaker 1: his paper. Again, the United States has its own civil religion, 467 00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:42,440 Speaker 1: which they're relying on the support of Christians and undoubtedly 468 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:46,720 Speaker 1: borrowing much from Christian imagery, transcends mere sectarian religion to 469 00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:50,080 Speaker 1: unite all Americans on a higher ground. Indeed, this is 470 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:53,720 Speaker 1: what makes secularism compatible with civil religion. What Robert Bella 471 00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:58,160 Speaker 1: calls traditional religion is privatized, while civic rituals revolve around 472 00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:01,840 Speaker 1: a generic God who under its America's identity and purpose 473 00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:04,640 Speaker 1: in the world. In this sense, Andrew Sullivan is right. 474 00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:07,520 Speaker 1: This is a religious war. The war of which nine 475 00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:10,920 Speaker 1: eleven was a significant marker, is not extremist and expansionist 476 00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:14,199 Speaker 1: religion against a peace loving and neutral secularist order. It 477 00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:17,840 Speaker 1: is rather the violent confrontation of Islamist terrorism with the 478 00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:22,840 Speaker 1: civil religion of American expansionism, that is, the evangelical insistence 479 00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:25,800 Speaker 1: that liberal social order is the only viable kind of 480 00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:28,679 Speaker 1: social order. It is what Tarik Ali has called the 481 00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:32,520 Speaker 1: clash of fundamentalisms. And I think that's important because I 482 00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:34,480 Speaker 1: think one way area in which the left really got 483 00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:37,760 Speaker 1: things wrong and sort of their interpretation of what happens 484 00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:39,720 Speaker 1: in this period of seeing it as a clash between 485 00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:43,439 Speaker 1: kind of Christian fundamentalists as embodied by George Bush and 486 00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:47,200 Speaker 1: Islamic fundamentalists. No, no, no, The people who were leading 487 00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:49,680 Speaker 1: this country, including Bush, but including most of liberals, were 488 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:53,480 Speaker 1: America fundamentalists. They were fundamentalists in the idea of the 489 00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:56,560 Speaker 1: secular American state, and so were my parents. As conservative 490 00:25:56,560 --> 00:25:58,959 Speaker 1: as they were. My family was never about you know, 491 00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:02,040 Speaker 1: Christianity needing to be spread over there. It was about 492 00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:07,040 Speaker 1: this this belief in America as something holy and that's 493 00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:10,320 Speaker 1: something holy and sacred had been struck on September eleven. 494 00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:16,159 Speaker 1: I will say I I think, I I don't know, 495 00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:20,520 Speaker 1: it's easy for me to see why people think about 496 00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:22,760 Speaker 1: this on the left sort of as this Christian holy war, 497 00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:24,160 Speaker 1: because like I grew up with a lot of people 498 00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:27,440 Speaker 1: who like in the wake of this, who like really 499 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:30,080 Speaker 1: were full on into the crusade thing. Like I had 500 00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:32,119 Speaker 1: classmates who are talked about how they were going to 501 00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:35,679 Speaker 1: join the military to kill a Muslims, like there was 502 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:37,800 Speaker 1: I mean, like, I think this is a real thing. 503 00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:40,280 Speaker 1: And that's what I mean, that's sort of analytics wrong, 504 00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:43,000 Speaker 1: that's what that's what Kavanaugh saying, and that it's kind 505 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:48,800 Speaker 1: of scaffolded on Christianity, but like that's fun fundamentally, like 506 00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:50,800 Speaker 1: the fact that there are some people who are going 507 00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:53,440 Speaker 1: and there being like this is finally religious crusade doesn't 508 00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:56,680 Speaker 1: mean that's like what the leadership of the country is doing. 509 00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:58,120 Speaker 1: And as I have to do. I think that's part 510 00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:01,840 Speaker 1: of why we get ump and the current Christian extremist 511 00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:06,000 Speaker 1: surge is that, uh, it's a reaction to how kind 512 00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:08,959 Speaker 1: of the neo cons go with this, because for the 513 00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:12,480 Speaker 1: neo cons, this isn't really about this isn't about Christianity 514 00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:15,000 Speaker 1: is something you use in this fight, but like that's 515 00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:19,160 Speaker 1: not what you're fighting for here. Um. And I think 516 00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:20,920 Speaker 1: there's there's a good amount of evidence for the fact 517 00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:25,480 Speaker 1: that Americans identified something as being like holy about the 518 00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:30,000 Speaker 1: Twin Towers, particularly after the attack. UM from Kavanaughs study 519 00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:32,840 Speaker 1: in Public Theology. Quote in August two thousand and ten 520 00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:35,399 Speaker 1: of poll found that fifty six percent of Americans regard 521 00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:38,560 Speaker 1: Ground zero as sacred ground, and a slightly larger majority 522 00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:41,639 Speaker 1: opposes construction of a mosque nearby. For this region, a 523 00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:44,240 Speaker 1: sacred aura surrounds the identity of the nation that was 524 00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:47,440 Speaker 1: attacked on that day, and the attacks concentrated that sacredness 525 00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:50,480 Speaker 1: in a particular location in time. It is not necessary 526 00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:53,280 Speaker 1: to go back to the more famously evangelical George W. 527 00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:55,840 Speaker 1: Bush to make the link between piety and nine eleven 528 00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:58,640 Speaker 1: and his speech at Ground Zero last September eleven, two 529 00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:01,879 Speaker 1: th ten, Barack Oba talked about gathering at this sacred 530 00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:04,600 Speaker 1: hour on hallowed Ground and talked about how those who 531 00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:07,760 Speaker 1: are not only killed but sacrificed in the attacks. God 532 00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:09,960 Speaker 1: was invoked, of course, but it was a generic God 533 00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:13,840 Speaker 1: who belonged to no particular faith, because, as Obama made clear, 534 00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:17,800 Speaker 1: the victims themselves were of many faiths. Yeah, this is 535 00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:20,199 Speaker 1: I mean one of the things that I think is 536 00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:23,280 Speaker 1: interesting if you're actually trying to analyze this and you 537 00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:25,360 Speaker 1: want to see kind of the degree to which why 538 00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:27,880 Speaker 1: I think it's important to look at how people treated 539 00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:34,320 Speaker 1: the space itself is sacred. Is how actual religion responded 540 00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:36,840 Speaker 1: in the wake of nine eleven, and how Americans responded 541 00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:39,760 Speaker 1: to religion in the wake of nine eleven. Um, because 542 00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:43,000 Speaker 1: you know, it says they're about fifty percent of the country. See, 543 00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:45,920 Speaker 1: this is like hallowed ground in some way. Um. And 544 00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:48,719 Speaker 1: I think there's evidence that people kind of rose up 545 00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:51,520 Speaker 1: to defend this civic religion more than they actually did 546 00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:55,880 Speaker 1: their real faiths. Um and this is because primarily the 547 00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:59,760 Speaker 1: reaction on a on a population basis to September eleven, 548 00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:03,760 Speaker 1: as at religiosity in the United States continued to decline. Right, 549 00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:06,120 Speaker 1: There's a public idea that it led to this like 550 00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:08,840 Speaker 1: surge of people coming back to the church and getting 551 00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:11,960 Speaker 1: religious again, but there's really no demographic evidence to back 552 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:13,400 Speaker 1: that up. And I want to quote from an article 553 00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:16,520 Speaker 1: I found in Christianity Today. For a few weeks after 554 00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:19,040 Speaker 1: nine eleven, people packed the pews, but it soon became 555 00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:21,680 Speaker 1: apparent there was not a great awakening or a profound 556 00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:25,320 Speaker 1: change in America's religious practices, as Frank M. Newport Gallop 557 00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:27,200 Speaker 1: Pole editor in chief, told The New York Times in 558 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:30,600 Speaker 1: November of two thousand one. Barne Group confirmed that conclusion 559 00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:34,200 Speaker 1: in two thousand six, attract nineteen dimensions of spirituality and 560 00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:37,520 Speaker 1: beliefs and found none of those nineteen indicators were statistically 561 00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:40,680 Speaker 1: different from pre attack measures. In other words, the nine 562 00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:43,960 Speaker 1: eleven attacks didn't put American Christians on a trajectory towards 563 00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:47,920 Speaker 1: more orthodox beliefs or more consistent habits of prayer, church attendance, 564 00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:50,240 Speaker 1: or scripture reading. In so far as we can measure 565 00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:53,720 Speaker 1: matters of faith, the decline of American religiosity continue to 566 00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:57,479 Speaker 1: pace spiritually speaking, said barn As David Kinneman. It's as 567 00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:02,520 Speaker 1: if nothing significant ever happened, and that's something evangelicals have 568 00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:04,680 Speaker 1: had to grapple with ever since the US did not 569 00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:08,240 Speaker 1: turn back to God demographically. And while hateful attacks against 570 00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:10,520 Speaker 1: Muslims surged, you have to acknowledge that a lot of 571 00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:12,560 Speaker 1: those were from people who were more or less secular 572 00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:15,000 Speaker 1: um in the traditional sense. And this is part of 573 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:19,400 Speaker 1: why so many of the online atheists set Uh sided 574 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:21,320 Speaker 1: with the alt right in two thousand fifteen and two 575 00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:23,440 Speaker 1: thousand and sixteen. Right, it's because there are a lot 576 00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:27,400 Speaker 1: of those people, um, while they would have described themselves 577 00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:30,920 Speaker 1: as an opposition to Christianity as well, were very much 578 00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:33,360 Speaker 1: a part of the same civic religion as everybody else, 579 00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:36,160 Speaker 1: and we're willing to engage in racist attacks against members 580 00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:38,480 Speaker 1: of religion as a result of that. You know, when 581 00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:40,440 Speaker 1: when you look at the fact that a majority of 582 00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:44,000 Speaker 1: Americans saw ground zero with sacred and opposed building a mosque. 583 00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:46,560 Speaker 1: Because of that, a decent chunk of those people are 584 00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:49,040 Speaker 1: not Christians. Who opposed the building of a mosque, right 585 00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:51,720 Speaker 1: they're a religious or their atheist, and they opposed the 586 00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:54,080 Speaker 1: building of a mosque because they still see Islam as 587 00:30:54,080 --> 00:31:15,800 Speaker 1: an enemy. Yeah, it's uh, it's interesting. But Americans were 588 00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:20,080 Speaker 1: not moved to embrace religion by the attacks um and 589 00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:22,880 Speaker 1: the deterioration of our sense of security that followed, and 590 00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:26,200 Speaker 1: I think that evangelicals have never been able to actually 591 00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:29,360 Speaker 1: accept this. A two thousand thirteen Barnard Group survey found 592 00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:33,160 Speaker 1: that most Americans, but particularly born again Christians, believe nine 593 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:36,480 Speaker 1: eleven quote made people turn back to God. And this 594 00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:38,920 Speaker 1: again has led to kind of a fetishization of the 595 00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:42,120 Speaker 1: period right after nine eleven UM. The writer of that 596 00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:46,160 Speaker 1: Christianity Today article I cited earlier theorizes quote. My first 597 00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:48,640 Speaker 1: suggestion is what we thought was hope wasn't lost at all. 598 00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:51,560 Speaker 1: It was less Christian trust and character and redemption of 599 00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:55,120 Speaker 1: God than American optimism coated with not quite biblical bromides 600 00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:58,800 Speaker 1: that when there's bad, good will follow. Americans love to 601 00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:01,400 Speaker 1: believe that everything happens for a reason, and that after 602 00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:03,880 Speaker 1: a short period of time, sorrow will always turn into 603 00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:08,880 Speaker 1: joy and suffering into sanctifications. We quote Romans, we know 604 00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:10,680 Speaker 1: that in all things God works for the good of 605 00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:13,120 Speaker 1: those who love him, and incorrectly interpreted to mean that 606 00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:16,760 Speaker 1: everything that happens to us will also somehow work out. Okay, 607 00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:19,120 Speaker 1: And I think that they're onto something here and this 608 00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:21,400 Speaker 1: really that this goes back to what Kavanaugh was saying 609 00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:24,520 Speaker 1: about how this civil religion is kind of grafted on 610 00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:30,080 Speaker 1: over the bones of Christianity, right, Um, And it's it's 611 00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:32,960 Speaker 1: there's so much. Part of what's interesting to me here 612 00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:35,080 Speaker 1: is that well, I think it's it's worthwhile that he 613 00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:38,480 Speaker 1: quotes Romans. I have to think that this, this belief 614 00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:41,320 Speaker 1: that Americans have that everything happens for a reason, is 615 00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:44,160 Speaker 1: at least as undergirded by like Disney as it is 616 00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:47,040 Speaker 1: with scripture. It's undergraded by the way we tell stories, 617 00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:49,640 Speaker 1: by the way fiction works in our society, which is 618 00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:52,960 Speaker 1: a very unique to us. Right, Every culture does not 619 00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:56,160 Speaker 1: tell stories the same way. Well, and I think, like, 620 00:32:57,040 --> 00:32:59,440 Speaker 1: if you want to trace that out to like, I 621 00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:03,000 Speaker 1: think that's part of the reason why people are so 622 00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:07,160 Speaker 1: unbelievably any conspiracy theories here. Yeah, if everything needs to 623 00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:10,280 Speaker 1: have a reason, that it's part of an overarching grand 624 00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:14,680 Speaker 1: narrative that ties everything together. Yeah, and it's obviously again 625 00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:17,120 Speaker 1: I don't want to like underplay, and perhaps we should 626 00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:19,280 Speaker 1: do an episode maybe behind the Bastards on the reaction 627 00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:22,400 Speaker 1: of the religious right to nine eleven, which was nuts 628 00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:25,600 Speaker 1: and it was vicious and horrific. I'm not I'm not 629 00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:28,040 Speaker 1: trying to deny that, but I think one of the 630 00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:30,960 Speaker 1: things that happens in this period is they grow increasingly 631 00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:34,640 Speaker 1: infuriated that that is not shared by a majority of 632 00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:38,520 Speaker 1: the country, that it doesn't bring a religious revival right, 633 00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:43,960 Speaker 1: that that doesn't follow September eleven. Um. Now it is 634 00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:47,440 Speaker 1: kind of there's a couple of things that are interesting here. Um. 635 00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:51,200 Speaker 1: One of them is that, uh, the apocalyptic Christian believers, 636 00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:53,800 Speaker 1: they do have kind of this this in with the 637 00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:56,840 Speaker 1: Bush administration. We know that at one point a bunch 638 00:33:56,840 --> 00:34:00,400 Speaker 1: of apocalyptic like Christian representatives, like people who were kind 639 00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:03,440 Speaker 1: of heading churches and stuff that believe there's this belief 640 00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:05,960 Speaker 1: among certain Christians that you need to rebuild the Temple 641 00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:08,640 Speaker 1: in Jerusalem and bring about the end of days and 642 00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:10,080 Speaker 1: all this stuff. There's a bunch of ship that has 643 00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:13,279 Speaker 1: to happen in Palestine in order for the apocalypse to come, 644 00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:15,720 Speaker 1: and they're trying to get US presidents to make it happen. 645 00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:18,360 Speaker 1: This is why Trump made some of the calls that 646 00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:21,640 Speaker 1: he made, was to deliberately like give those people a 647 00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:23,640 Speaker 1: win um, which is why some of the ship that 648 00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:27,240 Speaker 1: happened in Jerusalem during the Trump administration um was able 649 00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:29,759 Speaker 1: to happen. All of that stuff is stuff that they 650 00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:31,719 Speaker 1: went to George Bush. They had a two hour meeting 651 00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:33,640 Speaker 1: with him and Elliot Abrams and a bunch of his 652 00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:37,399 Speaker 1: staff where these representatives of kind of like the Pentecostal 653 00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:40,200 Speaker 1: movement tried to get him to carry out this wishless 654 00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:43,640 Speaker 1: policy of acts around Israel and Iraq to help them 655 00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:47,080 Speaker 1: bring about the rapture. And the Bush administration didn't really 656 00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:49,080 Speaker 1: do any of that. They have to take the meeting right, 657 00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:51,040 Speaker 1: they bring these guys in, they don't give them what 658 00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:53,160 Speaker 1: they want. It's not until Trump that a lot of 659 00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:55,960 Speaker 1: these guys get what they want. And what you what 660 00:34:56,160 --> 00:34:59,919 Speaker 1: happens here because you've got this this death cult Christi 661 00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:03,080 Speaker 1: group who see this as a crusade and who want 662 00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:06,360 Speaker 1: to war with Islam, and they're constantly frustrated by the 663 00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:08,680 Speaker 1: fact that even though he's supposed to be their guy, 664 00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:11,480 Speaker 1: Bush doesn't go all the way for them, right, And 665 00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:15,000 Speaker 1: this is part of why his military adventurism gets criticized 666 00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:18,879 Speaker 1: effectively by guys like Trump who win the evangelical right, 667 00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:21,719 Speaker 1: because the evangelicals say, like, well, if we're not going 668 00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:23,880 Speaker 1: to have a holy war, then like, what was this stuff? 669 00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:25,520 Speaker 1: We just wasted a bunch of of money and a 670 00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:27,440 Speaker 1: bunch of treasure and a bunch of young men for 671 00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:30,799 Speaker 1: nothing over there. Um. And that's part of like what 672 00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:34,400 Speaker 1: Trump wins on now, these two factions, these neo cons, 673 00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:36,440 Speaker 1: the guys who wind up, by the way, the guys 674 00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:38,799 Speaker 1: who are sort of on the civic religion side of 675 00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:40,960 Speaker 1: the response to nine eleven are all the people who 676 00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:43,759 Speaker 1: wind up running the Lincoln project right when you're talking 677 00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:46,480 Speaker 1: about the Republicans on that side of thing. And then 678 00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:49,279 Speaker 1: the part the folks who break off the evangelicals, the 679 00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:51,839 Speaker 1: people who want to holy war, that's who winds up 680 00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:56,399 Speaker 1: making the core of Trump's support. Um and yeah, and 681 00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:59,239 Speaker 1: that's uh, I think mostly where I'm going to leave 682 00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:02,000 Speaker 1: us for today on nine twelve. Next week we'll have 683 00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:05,560 Speaker 1: another special episode about Glenn Beck's nine twelve project that 684 00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:07,160 Speaker 1: will be kind of the finishing of this. But I 685 00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:10,520 Speaker 1: want to end, because we're talking about why I did this, 686 00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:12,719 Speaker 1: and why I started by talking about jokes about nine 687 00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:18,680 Speaker 1: eleven is because I think understanding understanding the attack on 688 00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:22,520 Speaker 1: the towers as like an attack on what had effectively 689 00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:25,000 Speaker 1: become a god to a lot of Americans, even if 690 00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:27,799 Speaker 1: they didn't realize it, right, the sanctity of this kind 691 00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:32,560 Speaker 1: of neoliberal capitalist order, and it's it's it's um, it's 692 00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:37,680 Speaker 1: historic inevitability. Right. The fact that that's what was going on, 693 00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:41,200 Speaker 1: that that that was so dear to people, that justified 694 00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:45,000 Speaker 1: so much violence, twenty years of war, of bombing's, millions 695 00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:48,400 Speaker 1: of deaths is part of why I think there's a 696 00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:51,279 Speaker 1: value in joking about nine eleven, which is not to 697 00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:54,200 Speaker 1: say that what happened wasn't terrible. Three three thousand and 698 00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:57,160 Speaker 1: change innocent people were murdered um in a in a 699 00:36:57,239 --> 00:36:59,520 Speaker 1: truly horrific way. If you actually sit down and watch 700 00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:02,120 Speaker 1: the footage the people falling out of the buildings, it's 701 00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:04,439 Speaker 1: a nightmare. If you think about stuff like Flight ninety three, 702 00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:07,480 Speaker 1: it's it's really stirring. You have these people who one 703 00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:10,239 Speaker 1: moment they're heading to like see their families, or go 704 00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:12,520 Speaker 1: on a work trip or something you're on a plane experience. 705 00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:14,759 Speaker 1: I'm sure everybody has, where you're just like trying to 706 00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:16,759 Speaker 1: get from A to B and in the space of 707 00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:19,200 Speaker 1: like a few minutes, they have to all decide they're 708 00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:22,120 Speaker 1: going to charge a bunch of terrorists, fight in hand 709 00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:24,600 Speaker 1: to hand combat, and then pilot a plane into the 710 00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:26,920 Speaker 1: ground in order to stop it from killing other people. 711 00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:31,400 Speaker 1: That's that's powerful stuff. Um. What what I think is 712 00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:35,680 Speaker 1: important is de sacralizing it, because there's nothing sacred about 713 00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:40,280 Speaker 1: mass murder um, and there's nothing there's we shouldn't see 714 00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:42,359 Speaker 1: what happened there is anything but what it is, which 715 00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:46,360 Speaker 1: is a tragic um, a tragic act of violence against 716 00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:49,839 Speaker 1: innocent people. But taking it as like an attack on 717 00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:57,440 Speaker 1: our soul, as an attack on like our our collective god. Um, 718 00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:00,040 Speaker 1: when you start to do that again, it kind of 719 00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:03,880 Speaker 1: justifies any sort of violence, like there's nothing, there's nothing 720 00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:06,200 Speaker 1: that's off the table, And in in the first few 721 00:38:06,239 --> 00:38:09,320 Speaker 1: years after nine eleven, there was nothing off the table. Um, 722 00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:13,640 Speaker 1: And we're never getting back to the world that we 723 00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:16,520 Speaker 1: had before, which is ultimately like what all that violence 724 00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:19,239 Speaker 1: was about, right, all of everything terrible that was on 725 00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:21,640 Speaker 1: in the wake of nine eleven was justified, even if 726 00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:24,520 Speaker 1: people didn't say it in the desire to get back 727 00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:26,640 Speaker 1: to where we were in the nineties right in their 728 00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:28,560 Speaker 1: heads and their sense of security. I'm not talking about 729 00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:31,759 Speaker 1: anything is like courses, economic projections. I'm talking about in 730 00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:35,880 Speaker 1: the sense of like optimism and basic security. And I 731 00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:37,759 Speaker 1: think one of the people who got this best in 732 00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:40,600 Speaker 1: the immediate wake of the attack was Hunter S. Thompson, 733 00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:42,640 Speaker 1: who you know, was still alive at that point for 734 00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:44,480 Speaker 1: a couple of years, and he wrote a column. I 735 00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:47,680 Speaker 1: think it was for ESPN dot com because that's who 736 00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:49,920 Speaker 1: he was writing for in those days. His career was 737 00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:53,799 Speaker 1: well past its peak. Um, but he wrote probably the 738 00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:56,920 Speaker 1: best thing anyone wrote a week after nine eleven, and 739 00:38:56,920 --> 00:38:58,319 Speaker 1: I'm going to read you the end of that. Now, 740 00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:02,279 Speaker 1: we're war now, according to President Bush, and I take 741 00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:04,480 Speaker 1: him at his word. He also says this war might 742 00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:08,160 Speaker 1: last for a very long time. Generals and military scholars 743 00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:10,080 Speaker 1: that will tell you that eight or ten years is 744 00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:12,160 Speaker 1: actually not such a long time in the span of 745 00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:15,280 Speaker 1: human history, which is no doubt true. But history also 746 00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:17,200 Speaker 1: tells us that ten years of martial law and a 747 00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:19,600 Speaker 1: wartime economy are going to feel like a lifetime to 748 00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:22,440 Speaker 1: people who are in their twenties today, the poor bastards 749 00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:25,040 Speaker 1: of what will forever be known as Generation Z are 750 00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:27,560 Speaker 1: doomed to be the first generation of Americans who will 751 00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:29,560 Speaker 1: grow up with the lower standard of living than their 752 00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:32,960 Speaker 1: parents enjoyed. This is extremely heavy news, and it will 753 00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:35,200 Speaker 1: take a while for it to sink in. The twenty 754 00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:37,279 Speaker 1: two babies born in New York City while the World 755 00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:39,719 Speaker 1: Trade Center burned, will never know what they missed. The 756 00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:41,960 Speaker 1: last half of the twentieth century will seem like a 757 00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:45,040 Speaker 1: wild party for rich kids compared to what's coming now. 758 00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:48,239 Speaker 1: The party's over, folks. Yeah, that is kind of the 759 00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:52,439 Speaker 1: feeling growing up in the early two thousand's and not 760 00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:56,319 Speaker 1: not knowing, not never actually experiencing the nineties. And yea, 761 00:39:56,760 --> 00:40:00,120 Speaker 1: in some ways, you know, nine eleven feel it is 762 00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:02,239 Speaker 1: very similar to me as something like Pearl Harbor, Like 763 00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:07,120 Speaker 1: they're both things that happened, I guess before I was around, 764 00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:10,960 Speaker 1: and it just they created the world that already existed 765 00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:14,839 Speaker 1: in like it never it never like it, you know, 766 00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:18,560 Speaker 1: it never changed the world I was in. It just 767 00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:21,440 Speaker 1: became the world that I was in. For me, nine 768 00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:24,640 Speaker 1: eleven is my first memory, Like that is the first 769 00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:29,960 Speaker 1: thing I remember and yeah, we got exactly the world 770 00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:34,240 Speaker 1: that you would expect from your first ever reading nine eleven. 771 00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:39,200 Speaker 1: Yeah it's um, I mean again for me, I think 772 00:40:39,239 --> 00:40:41,239 Speaker 1: the thing I identify most is that little clip I 773 00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:43,279 Speaker 1: played from South Park where one of the kids is like, 774 00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:49,680 Speaker 1: do you remember when everything didn't suck? It's not really um? 775 00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:53,919 Speaker 1: So yeah, go out, um, tell a tasteful joke about 776 00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:57,440 Speaker 1: nine eleven, and uh, try not to worship the state. 777 00:40:57,640 --> 00:41:11,040 Speaker 1: It doesn't end well. It could Happen Here as a 778 00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:13,919 Speaker 1: production of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool 779 00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:16,680 Speaker 1: Zone Media, visit our website cool zone media dot com, 780 00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:18,520 Speaker 1: or check us out on the I Heart Radio app, 781 00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:21,880 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can 782 00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:24,600 Speaker 1: find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated monthly at 783 00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:27,880 Speaker 1: cool zone media dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.