Speaker 1: Is that healing or is that causing more damage? I
Speaker 1: feel like all the Black Mirror episodes tell us this
Speaker 1: is actually going to cause more damage because this isn't
Speaker 1: the real person. Like you want the real person here,
Speaker 1: the real person is not here.
Speaker 2: There are No Girls on the Internet.
Speaker 1: As a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative, I'm Bridget
Speaker 1: Todd and this is there are No Girls on the Internet.
Speaker 1: Musical icon Whitney Houston died in twenty eleven, but that
Speaker 1: hasn't stopped her from performing. She's back from the dead
Speaker 1: and ready to entertain kind of an evening with Whitney.
Speaker 1: The Whitney Houston Hologram Tour first debuted in Europe in
Speaker 1: twenty twenty and is currently doing a residency in Las Vegas,
Speaker 1: leading up to a possible United States tour next year.
Speaker 1: Whitney's family and a state are involved with the show's production.
Speaker 1: Pat Houston, Whitney's sister and the manager of her estate,
Speaker 1: raved about the Hologram show, saying, we're excited to bring
Speaker 1: this cutting edge musical experience to the fans who have
Speaker 1: supported the pop culture phenomenon that was Whitney Houston because
Speaker 1: they deserve nothing less, and while that may be true,
Speaker 1: the increasing use of holograms to recreate people who are
Speaker 1: no longer living is something that we should at least
Speaker 1: be asking questions about, rather than just accept as another
Speaker 1: new normal of our increasingly tech enabled world. In a
Speaker 1: piece called the Zombification of Whitney Houston Spirituality, writer Brooke
Speaker 1: Obe asks what right do any of us have to
Speaker 1: demand that our deceased heroes, loved ones, or anyone else
Speaker 1: act as a zombie for our entertainment. I had heard
Speaker 1: about this hologram tour that Whitney Houston's estate we're putting
Speaker 1: on in Europe, and it was finally coming to the
Speaker 1: United States. I've been thinking about this for a really
Speaker 1: long time and really haunted by this for a really
Speaker 1: long time, but it was kind of out of sight,
Speaker 1: out of mind.
Speaker 2: But now it is.
Speaker 1: Happening. There's a residency for six months in Vegas of
Speaker 1: this Whitney Houston hologram and it was so disturbing to me.
Speaker 1: And it was also happening at the same time as Halloween,
Speaker 1: Like they released or they premiered this hologram residency in
Speaker 1: Las Vegas the week of Halloween, and I was like Wow, yep,
Speaker 1: that is perfect. You know, if you want to exhum
Speaker 1: some ghosts, if you want to zombiefie an icon, why
Speaker 1: not start the week of Halloween. So yeah, So that
Speaker 1: was really what triggered me finally sitting down and getting
Speaker 1: all of my thoughts out of my head and onto
Speaker 1: the page. Well, I mean, the Halloween date I think
Speaker 1: is so kind of perfect because it is a really spooky,
Speaker 1: haunting kind of thing, especially given that you know, I
Speaker 1: feel like for so many of us black women, we
Speaker 1: have this special connection to Whitney Houston. I know that
Speaker 1: she occupies a very special place in my heart. Do
Speaker 1: you feel the same way? Absolutely? I Mean, she is everything.
Speaker 1: She's the voice. You know. Her life was so beautiful
Speaker 1: and so tragic and so unnecessarily ended, and so it's
Speaker 1: it was one of the most devastating celebrity losses that
Speaker 1: I've experienced in my life. And you know, I I
Speaker 1: was just so sad to see the people that were
Speaker 1: around her and the lack of care and the lack
Speaker 1: of regard for someone who needed help and assistance and
Speaker 1: and wasn't able to get it and wasn't able to
Speaker 1: live authentically as herself either, and still have the career
Speaker 1: that she wanted to have, and so to see what's
Speaker 1: happening now, this is basically the same thing that's happening
Speaker 1: in her life is now happening in her death. She
Speaker 1: her image is being constructed for her, you know, without
Speaker 1: her consent, and she's being put to work today. The
Speaker 1: term zombies conjures up brains, craving blood vests like Donna
Speaker 1: the Dead, but those pop culture interpretations obscure the actual
Speaker 1: grim origins of zombies and their connection to slavery. I
Speaker 1: read this really amazing in depth article in the Atlantic
Speaker 1: by Mike Brani and he it was about the tragic
Speaker 1: forgotten history of zombies, and so it is. It's talking
Speaker 1: about the ways that Haitian enslaved people. Their deepest fear
Speaker 1: was that, you know, if they died by suicide, because
Speaker 1: the plantations were so brutal, the French were so brutal
Speaker 1: in their in their slavery of Haitians, that they would
Speaker 1: be trapped in their bodies and that they would be
Speaker 1: trapped on these plantations forever. And then once Haitian voodoo evolved,
Speaker 1: that zombie mythology evolved as well. And basically there was
Speaker 1: a sorcerer that would take these dead bodies and resurrect
Speaker 1: them for evil purposes, you know, and use them for
Speaker 1: free labor. And that's what I saw, That's what I
Speaker 1: saw in my mind when I heard about this hologram
Speaker 1: and this idea of taking Whitney, who was not able
Speaker 1: to rest and not able to control her own image
Speaker 1: in her lifetime, now in death, being used for free
Speaker 1: labor once again, and racking in money for the estate
Speaker 1: for the next six months in this hologram residency. The
Speaker 1: thing about this that strikes me as particularly sad is
Speaker 1: that I saw the waste that Whitney was stripped of
Speaker 1: her humanity and identity in life. Aspects of who Whitney
Speaker 1: was as a person were obscured to make her more
Speaker 1: marketable to mainstream white audiences. Music labels were segregated by race,
Speaker 1: and in the beginning, her sound was intentionally manufactured to
Speaker 1: have white crossover appeal. Clive Davis, the head of Arista Records,
Speaker 1: signed Whitney when she was just a teenager after an
Speaker 1: A and R rep saw her singing with her mother's
Speaker 1: nightclub act. Davis became a huge force in shaping Whitney's
Speaker 1: image and career, he vetoed her releasing anything to black
Speaker 1: sounding for her first two albums. His choice came with
Speaker 1: a real cost for Whitney. At the height of her
Speaker 1: success in the eighties, Whitney was booed by black audiences
Speaker 1: at the Soul Train Awards when the host introduced her
Speaker 1: as a nominee for Best R and B Artist. Reverend
Speaker 1: Al Sharpton even organized a boycott of her music, calling
Speaker 1: her Whitey Houston on flyers that you can check out
Speaker 1: on the link in our show description. Being stripped of
Speaker 1: this aspect of her identity was hard for Whitney. Sometimes
Speaker 1: it gets you down. You're not black enough for them,
Speaker 1: You're not R and B enough, You're very pop. The
Speaker 1: white audience has taken you away from them, She explained
Speaker 1: that an interview, and it didn't stop there now. In
Speaker 1: the eighties, the music industry was deeply homophobic, and to
Speaker 1: find mainstream success an artist would sometimes have to conceal
Speaker 1: parts of themselves. So it isn't surprising that Whitney herself
Speaker 1: did not talk openly about her sexuality, and we'll never
Speaker 1: get to hear about it in her own words, But
Speaker 1: her close friend and confidant, Robin Crawford, an openly gay
Speaker 1: black woman who had been decades by Whitney's side as
Speaker 1: her assistant and creative director, opened up about her romantic
Speaker 1: relationship with Whitney. They met at summer campus kids and
Speaker 1: quickly became inseparable, but soon after Whitney signed with Clive
Speaker 1: Davis at Arista, she ended their intimate relationship because quote,
Speaker 1: it would make our journey even more difficult, Crawford remembers
Speaker 1: in her memoir A Song for You, My life with
Speaker 1: Whitney Houston. In the two thousands. The years leading up
Speaker 1: to her tragic death, Whitney dealt with addiction and family issues,
Speaker 1: like the two thousand and three arrest of her husband,
Speaker 1: Bobby Brown for allegedly hitting her in the face, and
Speaker 1: the same media who'd once been happy to portray her
Speaker 1: as Black America's sweetheart gleefully made her the butt of
Speaker 1: jokes for failing to live up to the narrow role
Speaker 1: they'd written her into. Whitney wasn't really able to be
Speaker 1: her full self when she was alive, and now as
Speaker 1: a hologram, rendered back to life without any of the
Speaker 1: baggage that comes with being a complex living person, Whitney
Speaker 1: is now an always on, always came already version of
Speaker 1: herself who can perform on command and generate income for
Speaker 1: others forever.
Speaker 2: And in a way, the hologram.
Speaker 1: Suggests that that's what music executives really wanted from her
Speaker 1: all along.
Speaker 2: I was really struck by in your piece.
Speaker 1: It's sort of that element of you know that these
Speaker 1: Haitian enslaved people, how they that was like their deepest fear,
Speaker 1: you know, being exhumed, being reanimated, and being trapped in
Speaker 1: this cycle of having to work to make money from
Speaker 1: their labor forever. And how deeply kind of sad that is,
Speaker 1: not being able to rest given the kind of life
Speaker 1: that Whitney Houston did live. And I think there's something
Speaker 1: so incredibly sad but also relatable about the life that
Speaker 1: Whitney Houston lived. You know, in order for her to
Speaker 1: be to be sort of like marketable as an artist,
Speaker 1: she was stripped from so much of what made her
Speaker 1: her write, her blackness, her queerness, so much of like
Speaker 1: the things that made Whitney who she was. And I
Speaker 1: feel that, you know, she played that game, and then
Speaker 1: when she stepped away to be a more authentic version
Speaker 1: of herself, how quickly America turned on her.
Speaker 2: How quickly America turned her into a joke.
Speaker 1: And so I do think there's some sort of cautionary
Speaker 1: tale about this tightrope that we all have to walk
Speaker 1: as black women, and that's why so many of us
Speaker 1: identify with her, but as this hologram. It's like in
Speaker 1: her death, they have been able to strip her from
Speaker 1: all of these things that make her her so that
Speaker 1: they have this marketable version that they can just make
Speaker 1: money off of. You know, they don't have to include
Speaker 1: her blackness, her queerness, her addiction issues, her family issues.
Speaker 1: She can just be a hologram, money maker, money maker
Speaker 1: for them in death forever, right, And it's probably a
Speaker 1: lot more profitable for them with her, you know, not
Speaker 1: being able to be alive and to have the issues
Speaker 1: that she was dealing with. You know, she you don't
Speaker 1: have to worry about whether or not she's going to
Speaker 1: go out on stage because they can put her out
Speaker 1: whenever they want. Like it's it's really like I was
Speaker 1: saying in my piece, it's it's that the worst Black
Speaker 1: Mirror episode. That's a very very brilliant show. But there
Speaker 1: is an episode with Miley Cyrus that's basically the same thing.
Speaker 1: They have this pop star that they're putting forcing into
Speaker 1: a coma and then using her you know, music and
Speaker 1: using all all sorts of other technologies to project her
Speaker 1: onto a stage so that she will behave the way
Speaker 1: that they want her to behave. It's not a very
Speaker 1: good episode, but you know, the concept, you know, is
Speaker 1: definitely what's happening here. And you know, we've heard so
Speaker 1: much about how dangerous and unsafe it is for women
Speaker 1: and black women in particular in the music industry, and
Speaker 1: so I have no doubt that there are plenty of
Speaker 1: executives who would be all about, you know, how can
Speaker 1: we just make money off of this person and not
Speaker 1: have who they actually are get in the way of
Speaker 1: our money. Some musicians, like Anderson Pak don't want to
Speaker 1: it up for executives or estate executors to sort out
Speaker 1: in the event of his death. Last year, the musician
Speaker 1: got a tattoo on his forearm reading when I'm gone,
Speaker 1: please don't release any posthumous albums or song with my
Speaker 1: name attached. Those were just demos and never intended to
Speaker 1: be heard by the public. He debuted this tattoo in
Speaker 1: August of twenty twenty, just a few months after the
Speaker 1: Late Princes, previously unreleased album Welcome to America was posthumously released.
Speaker 1: While the album earned critical praise, I really can't say
Speaker 1: if the artist who died without a will and was
Speaker 1: so notoriously protective of ownership over his music and likeness
Speaker 1: that he changed his name to an unpronounceable symbol from
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety three to two thousand would have wanted this
Speaker 1: album to see.
Speaker 2: The light of day.
Speaker 1: You talk about all these different black artists who have
Speaker 1: taken great steps to avoid their likeness being used in
Speaker 1: these ways after death, you know, including Anderson Pox's tattoo.
Speaker 1: That's like, you know, if I die, please do not
Speaker 1: use my likeness or release any songs that were not
Speaker 1: meant to be released to the public. Do you think
Speaker 1: that there is this, like the societ little expectation that
Speaker 1: black artists specifically are just sort of there to be
Speaker 1: mined for their creativity for entertainment and profit even in death,
Speaker 1: and that like, specifically that we as black folks are
Speaker 1: just expected to be these never ending wells of profit
Speaker 1: generating creativity just forever, and like technology would certainly like
Speaker 1: facilitate that absolutely. Okay, So there's this great music journalist
Speaker 1: named Simon Reynolds who actually coined the term ghost slavery
Speaker 1: when talking about this topic. And that's you know what
Speaker 1: slavery is, right, It was created for in America. It
Speaker 1: was created to enslave mostly African people, but also indigenous people,
Speaker 1: you know, in order to work for free and to
Speaker 1: build their wealth. And so absolutely this is just another
Speaker 1: extension of that. You know, I do believe that, you know,
Speaker 1: black musicians and entertainers have been the people who've been
Speaker 1: able to kind of bring through a bit of these
Speaker 1: white supremacist layers that exist in this country that this
Speaker 1: country was founded on. But they only want you to
Speaker 1: be able to do that to a certain extent, and
Speaker 1: especially if you start to become political, or if you
Speaker 1: start to become a problem in any way that could jeopardize,
Speaker 1: for one, white supremacy or you know, any of the
Speaker 1: structures that are in place, you get a little too mouthy,
Speaker 1: a little too uppity as a black person, of course,
Speaker 1: they want to put you back in the in their place.
Speaker 1: So I do feel like if you know, they as
Speaker 1: long as the music is bringing profit, there won't be
Speaker 1: a problem. But if there is a way to control
Speaker 1: black artists as much as possible. That's what's going to happen.
Speaker 1: You know, We've seen it in these three sixty deals.
Speaker 1: We've seen it in so many different ways in the
Speaker 1: music industry, and that is what I think. That's kind
Speaker 1: of why I reac honest over, like, why would I
Speaker 1: stay here this? You know, you can't even make money
Speaker 1: in the same way you have to be on the road.
Speaker 1: You have to do all of these different things as
Speaker 1: artists in order to maintain your integrity and to make money.
Speaker 1: It's just a lot more difficult today to be able
Speaker 1: to do that. So yeah, I mean, I think people
Speaker 1: are starting to understand that and starting to come up
Speaker 1: with other ways to protect themselves. I don't think a
Speaker 1: tattoo is gonna do it. I hope Anderson Pac has
Speaker 1: another plan, like a will.
Speaker 2: Print.
Speaker 1: Superfans myself very much included Pans a Super Bowl twenty
Speaker 1: eighteen halftime show when it was announced that Justin Timberlake
Speaker 1: was going to perform with the Prince hologram, because Print
Speaker 1: specifically said that he did not want to be brought
Speaker 1: back to life as a hologram when he was asked
Speaker 1: about it in a nineteen ninety eight interview with Guitar World,
Speaker 1: Prince said, certainly not. That is the most demonic thing imaginable.
Speaker 1: Everything is as it is and as it should be.
Speaker 1: If I was meant to jam with Duke Ellington, we
Speaker 1: would have lived in the same age. The whole virtual
Speaker 1: reality thing, it is really demonic, and I am not
Speaker 1: a demon. Also, what they did with that Beatles song,
Speaker 1: manipulating John Lennon's voice to have him singing from across
Speaker 1: the grave. That'll never happen to me. To prevent that
Speaker 1: kind of thing from happening is another reason why I
Speaker 1: want artistic control. So Prince absolutely did not want to
Speaker 1: be a hologram. And what's even worse is that Prince
Speaker 1: didn't even really seem to like justin Timberlake. The two
Speaker 1: had a whole history of making shady digs at each
Speaker 1: other while Prince was still alive. So bringing Prince back
Speaker 1: as a hologram against his wishes to jam with the
Speaker 1: musician he didn't even really like, just seem like adding
Speaker 1: insult to injury. Now, in the end, the Super Bowl
Speaker 1: halftime show didn't technically use a hologram. It was more
Speaker 1: of a projection of Prince performing on a screen. Paired
Speaker 1: up alongside Justin's performance, I think that was the problem
Speaker 1: with Prince. Prince also spoke out quite a bit about
Speaker 1: you know, how he thought holograms were demonic, that he
Speaker 1: would never want that for his life and said that
Speaker 1: this is never gonna happen to me. But you know,
Speaker 1: we did see that performance with Justin Timberlake at the
Speaker 1: super Bowl. What is supposed to be a tribute? And
Speaker 1: I think it really was supposed to be a hologram.
Speaker 1: And I think if not for the outcry of the public,
Speaker 1: because the public did know that Prince didn't want that,
Speaker 1: that they kind of maybe changed it to something else.
Speaker 1: You know, we still saw a projection of Prince, but
Speaker 1: it wasn't quite a hologram. But you know, when the
Speaker 1: estate has control over your likeness, they can do whatever
Speaker 1: they want, you know, unless you're explicitly in your will
Speaker 1: saying this is what this isn't what you want. And
Speaker 1: Prince died in Testate, so you know they have complete
Speaker 1: control his estate to do whatever they want to do
Speaker 1: with his image.
Speaker 2: And so that's why you.
Speaker 1: See these commercials with his music in that you never
Speaker 1: saw before. You you see people being able to go
Speaker 1: to Paisley Park, which he would never want, you know,
Speaker 1: So there's just so many things that can happen to
Speaker 1: you once you're dead. And you know, we've been looking
Speaker 1: at it from a perspective of you know, celebrities, but
Speaker 1: I think this is definitely something that's going to start
Speaker 1: impacting our regular day to day lives in the near
Speaker 1: future as well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's talk about that.
Speaker 1: So in your piece you bring up you argue that
Speaker 1: the announcement that Facebook slash meta if you want to
Speaker 1: say that, like their whole argument or their whole announcement
Speaker 1: about the metaverse, do you think that the vibe is
Speaker 1: that they want that our sort of tech overlords want
Speaker 1: to be able to reproduce and reanimate anyone, famous or
Speaker 1: non famous, anyone anywhere, and that that will be a common,
Speaker 1: a common you know, technological advancement available to every in
Speaker 1: our tech future.
Speaker 2: Do you think that that's like what they're after.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think that is just a thing that
Speaker 1: happens when the technology is available. So, you know, especially
Speaker 1: when people like Mark Zuckerberg and the rest of our
Speaker 1: tech overlords are concerned about profit or like we've seen,
Speaker 1: you know, several former Facebook employees coming forward and sharing
Speaker 1: damning information showing that Facebook is a company, slash Meta
Speaker 1: is a company that is for profits over people every
Speaker 1: single time. This is just something that could happen as
Speaker 1: a result of that. You know, you provide the technology,
Speaker 1: it's going to happen. It's just like you create a
Speaker 1: platform where people can express their opinions. There's gonna be harassment.
Speaker 1: You know, there's gonna be racism, there's gonna be terrorism,
Speaker 1: there's gonna be all these other things, and so you know,
Speaker 1: if you're not actively preventing that from happening, then of
Speaker 1: course it's going to happen. You're giving people the space
Speaker 1: to do what people do. In the wake of the
Speaker 1: twenty twenty racial justice protests all around the globe, after
Speaker 1: the murder of George Floyd, an unarmed black man killed
Speaker 1: by police, Change dot Org and the George Floyd Foundation
Speaker 1: created a three D hologram of the late George Floyd
Speaker 1: to be projected onto Confederate monuments in the South. George
Speaker 1: Floyd's brother, Rodney Floyd, said, since the death of my
Speaker 1: brother George, his face has been seen all over the world.
Speaker 1: The hologram will allow my brother's face to be seen
Speaker 1: as a symbol for change in places where changes needed
Speaker 1: the most. I had the chance to see the projection
Speaker 1: in Richmond, and it really was powerful. So holograms can
Speaker 1: be a way for a family to heal and grieve
Speaker 1: and turn their loss into something larger. But when someone's
Speaker 1: likeness becomes a symbol in this way, it's not always
Speaker 1: empowering and respectful, and also opens up the possibility that
Speaker 1: their likeness could be used in offensive ways. For instance,
Speaker 1: Floydy's is a collection of jokey NFTs that pixelated images
Speaker 1: of George Floyd with red eyes have co opted his image,
Speaker 1: seemingly to intentionally create outrage. We've seen this recently with
Speaker 1: George Floyd. You know, he was celebritized in his death
Speaker 1: and just his image has been I think one of
Speaker 1: the most exploited in in recent history. And for him
Speaker 1: for his image to go on a hologram tour of
Speaker 1: the South to all of these former Confederate statue locations
Speaker 1: you know, by and that was, you know, something that
Speaker 1: was supported by his family. His family was behind that,
Speaker 1: along with change dot Org. And so I just think
Speaker 1: when people are grieving, whether it's an icon that you
Speaker 1: loved or you know, a dear loved one, a friend
Speaker 1: or family member that you love, like people find ways
Speaker 1: to grieve, and you know, virtual reality, augmented reality, these
Speaker 1: are becoming more and more available in a four for
Speaker 1: everyday people. I know, I have an Oculus that was
Speaker 1: given to me by HBO p R. During Lovecraft Country's run,
Speaker 1: they had some activations in in the Oculus world VR
Speaker 1: world that they wanted press to see and they did
Speaker 1: a concert, a hologram concert. The point is that they
Speaker 1: want this to be a regular situation. They want everybody
Speaker 1: to have an Oculus, especially at Facebook just bought Oculus,
Speaker 1: you know, shortly shortly after HBO did all those Acciva
Speaker 1: activations in Oculus, and so now you have to sign
Speaker 1: in with your Facebook account in order to to use that.
Speaker 1: So this is definitely something that is going to be
Speaker 1: available to a great deal of people. And you can
Speaker 1: create avatars, and so who's to say somebody won't create
Speaker 1: an avatar based on their loved one, you know, And
Speaker 1: I think, you know, we really have to decide, like
Speaker 1: whose life is the most important?
Speaker 2: Is it?
Speaker 1: You know, the wishes of the person who's now dead
Speaker 1: or the person who's still alive, and wants to grieve
Speaker 1: and needs to grieve, and you know, however they choose
Speaker 1: to grieve, you know, should be okay, I mean it's
Speaker 1: it's definitely something that we should all be thinking about,
Speaker 1: So not just musicians and not just with tattoos, like
Speaker 1: we need to start putting this in our wills, like
Speaker 1: don't use my image in any of these ways. Brook
Speaker 1: is right that this is actually a thing that we
Speaker 1: will probably be seeing more and more of. Entertainment lawyer
Speaker 1: Brian Tuck wrote about this extensively. He writes, expect a
Speaker 1: lot more of this in the future. Look at the
Speaker 1: trends and Hollywood, where major studios crank out the same
Speaker 1: or similar blockbuster projects one after the next. The major studios,
Speaker 1: by and large are not risk takers. They want bankable
Speaker 1: stars who better than a superstar from yesterday, that can
Speaker 1: be completely controlled via voice acting and digital rendering. This
Speaker 1: digital actor will never show up to work late, get
Speaker 1: arrested for public drunkenness, or be involved in any scandal
Speaker 1: of the types that we've seen in recent years that
Speaker 1: cause an entire production to stop. It is highly likely
Speaker 1: that these digital resurrections or recreations will absolutely become commonplace.
Speaker 1: It's such an interesting peek into kind of a bleak
Speaker 1: tech future. Like a big part of what we talk
Speaker 1: about on this show is like imagining what our collective
Speaker 1: futures will look like with technology, and some of it
Speaker 1: is very beautiful, but some of it is very bleak.
Speaker 1: And so this idea of being ready for whatever bleak
Speaker 1: thing will be the next iteration of our tech future,
Speaker 1: I think is a really really good kind of like
Speaker 1: cautionary point. And I also think, you know, talking about
Speaker 1: how Facebook bought Oculus, there was a time where Facebook's
Speaker 1: motto was move fast and break things right. Like their
Speaker 1: entire thing was just like keep going, keep going, move, move, move,
Speaker 1: don't stop and think about the ramifications. Don't stop and
Speaker 1: think about the precedent that you're setting, don't stop and
Speaker 1: think about how this thing will be misused or can
Speaker 1: be you know, can result in real world harms. Just
Speaker 1: keep moving, just move fast. And I wonder if it's if,
Speaker 1: if that attitude, if that climate, has really got us
Speaker 1: in a place where we are making so many new
Speaker 1: technological advances and then normalizing them work or making them commonplace,
Speaker 1: but not stopping to think about what they will what
Speaker 1: kind of future they will actually create. Like in your
Speaker 1: piece you use this great Prince quote. If I was
Speaker 1: meant to jam with Duke Ellington, we would have lived
Speaker 1: at the same time. And I wonder is there an
Speaker 1: element here of focusing so much of what we you know,
Speaker 1: could do or can do that nobody is pumping the
Speaker 1: brakes and thinking.
Speaker 2: What should we be doing? Is this right?
Speaker 1: Is this going to make for a better, brighter future
Speaker 1: or a more harmful, more bleak future? Exactly exactly? And
Speaker 1: you know, I think it's the same with concerts. You know,
Speaker 1: we should have gone out to see Whitney Houston in concert.
Speaker 1: If we did it, Wow, we really messed up. You know.
Speaker 1: That should make us be even more vigilant about going
Speaker 1: to see Beyonce, going to see Stevie Wonder, going to
Speaker 1: see all these other people that we love who are
Speaker 1: icons while we.
Speaker 2: Have the chance.
Speaker 1: That's that's what life does. Life teaches us, you know, lessons,
Speaker 1: And the point is not to create a world where
Speaker 1: we didn't you know, miss the boat. It's to learn
Speaker 1: from the mistakes and to try better, you know, with
Speaker 1: the information that you have now. So I mean, I
Speaker 1: definitely think it is. It's teaching us a dangerous lesson
Speaker 1: that you know, technology, we can use technology to you know,
Speaker 1: erase history, and that's not the point. The point should
Speaker 1: not be to erase history. It should be to learn
Speaker 1: from history and grow from history and do better. And
Speaker 1: I think, you know, when we see, you know, someone
Speaker 1: like Kanye West, who created this hologram of Kim Kardashian's
Speaker 1: father who's been passed away for for decades now, and
Speaker 1: to have him show up at Kim's fortieth birthday party
Speaker 1: and tell her all these things that you know, you
Speaker 1: may want a father to tell you. But it's just
Speaker 1: like he isn't actually saying these words, you know, this
Speaker 1: isn't he has no you know, concepts. Perhaps I mean,
Speaker 1: we don't really know, but I mean like this hologram
Speaker 1: definitely has no concept of what's going on in the
Speaker 1: present world, you know, has no idea about you know,
Speaker 1: her children or any of that. Like it was just
Speaker 1: so odd and you know, personally, I would have divorced
Speaker 1: him off of this alone. But you know that's just
Speaker 1: I definitely see us creating holograms of our dead loved
Speaker 1: ones to be at our weddings and to be at
Speaker 1: the births of our children. And all of these things,
Speaker 1: you know, And I'm just I just wonder if that
Speaker 1: is actually I'm not a psychologist in any way, but
Speaker 1: I do wonder what the psychological impact of those things
Speaker 1: will be. Is that healing or is that causing more damage?
Speaker 1: I feel like all the Black Mirror episodes tell us
Speaker 1: this is actually going to cause more damage because this
Speaker 1: isn't the real person. Like you want the real person here,
Speaker 1: the real person is not here. So this fake stand
Speaker 1: in is not doing it, and they're not gonna do it.
Speaker 1: And the point is to learn how to move through grief,
Speaker 1: how to expand through grief, how to increase the amount
Speaker 1: of love that you put out into the world as
Speaker 1: a result of the grief, you know. So I am concerned.
Speaker 1: I am really concerned. And after a company called Kalita
Speaker 1: created a hologram of Kim Kardashian's late father, they said
Speaker 1: they were flooded with request to do the same for regular,
Speaker 1: though presumably wealthy people asking for hologram recreations of their
Speaker 1: loved ones. And companies like Deep Nostalgia, which uses AI
Speaker 1: to create digital renderings of loved ones that smile and move,
Speaker 1: are already incredibly popular with people who want to feel
Speaker 1: more connected to their lost loved ones. So could this
Speaker 1: be a useful way to process grief in the past.
Speaker 1: In a piece for The Fall called Deep Fakes, Dead
Speaker 1: Relatives and Digital Resurrection, doctor Elaine Cassett, psychologist and the
Speaker 1: author of All the Ghosts in the Machines, says that
Speaker 1: right now tech is ushered in new territory of collapsing
Speaker 1: the dead and the living together. Tech companies are the
Speaker 1: keepers of this information with a one size fits all
Speaker 1: memorialization mechanism. They've got ideas about what's good for you,
Speaker 1: and grief and bereavement are baked into the design. She says,
Speaker 1: I've been in therapy for a very long time, and
Speaker 1: one of my therapists kind of repeated mantras to me
Speaker 1: is there are no.
Speaker 2: Shortcuts to grieving. There's no shortcuts to processing.
Speaker 1: And so, you know, if there was a tech a
Speaker 1: technology enabled future that allowed me to experience things that
Speaker 1: I'm like I never got to experience, or you know, basically.
Speaker 2: I there's no shortcut to processing.
Speaker 1: And so if I was able to have a hologram
Speaker 1: of you know, the perfect solution, like a perfect recreation
Speaker 1: of what I wish, I always had. I am then
Speaker 1: not doing the work of processing the fact that I
Speaker 1: never got that in reality, right, like, and there is
Speaker 1: no shortcut to process, and you just have to move
Speaker 1: through it and make peace with it. And I guess
Speaker 1: I wonder if we're enabling the if technology is enabling
Speaker 1: us to think of things as shortcuts, like if.
Speaker 2: You didn't if you didn't appreciate Whitney Houston.
Speaker 1: When she was here, and or worse, you got on
Speaker 1: the pop culture bandwagon of mocking her and and like
Speaker 1: mocking her humanity, maybe you shouldn't get to have a
Speaker 1: future enabled by technology where you can go see her
Speaker 1: anytime you want, for as long as you live. Maybe
Speaker 1: you shouldn't be processing why it is that you treated
Speaker 1: her that way when she was living.
Speaker 2: And I wonder if this technology is building in these shortcuts.
Speaker 1: For not having to do that deep work of processing
Speaker 1: what it is we do while we're here to people
Speaker 1: who are actual humans. Absolutely absolutely, And you know it's
Speaker 1: interesting because I also I write fiction, you know, and
Speaker 1: a part of my process is reimagination. You know. I
Speaker 1: have a whole novel that like reimagines the ending of
Speaker 1: slavery in a way that is empowering for black people
Speaker 1: in a way that sets us off on a different
Speaker 1: future as a way of processing the ways in which
Speaker 1: we are existing in this present, terrible future as a
Speaker 1: result of slavery that has not been addressed or repaired
Speaker 1: or you know, and it's now trying to be you know,
Speaker 1: by these right wing extremists, you know, being erased from
Speaker 1: our history and from you know, being taught in schools.
Speaker 1: So I'm just you know, I understand the ideology behind,
Speaker 1: you know, how reimaginations can help process and help heal
Speaker 1: and move through grief. I'm just wondering what the limitations are,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm wondering, you know, what is I think
Speaker 1: our tech overlord should be thinking what is the worst
Speaker 1: that could happen and putting up safeguards right now, and
Speaker 1: they're not going to do that. That's such a good point,
Speaker 1: And I feel like we've already seen how technology is
Speaker 1: being misused if you don't put in safeguards for the
Speaker 1: reality of how a lot of people will probably use it. Like,
Speaker 1: you know, we have deep fake technology. I've seen very
Speaker 1: interesting useful interpretations of deep Deep fakes are artists who
Speaker 1: like make deep fakes of Mark Zuckerberg taking accountability for
Speaker 1: the harmony it's caused, for instance, But we already know
Speaker 1: that how deep fake technology is being used is to
Speaker 1: harass and abuse, marginalize people, women, people, women of color.
Speaker 1: And so this idea that we can just quickly put
Speaker 1: out new technology that is going to completely change and
Speaker 1: alter how our society understands how it works, and not
Speaker 1: put in those safeguards or even really stop to think
Speaker 1: about the president they said, I think is really a problem. Yes,
Speaker 1: absolutely so, I have to ask, you know, in reading
Speaker 1: your piece, it's obvious that this piece is sort of
Speaker 1: like a love letter to Whitney Houston and her legacy.
Speaker 2: What is her?
Speaker 1: Do you have a favorite Whitney Houston song or moment
Speaker 1: that that you want to share with us?
Speaker 2: Hmm, that might be a hard question. There so many
Speaker 2: to pick from there really are.
Speaker 1: I mean, I feel like I want to dance with somebody,
Speaker 1: and I know she was really hurt my heart to
Speaker 1: hear how she was criticized for this song by you know,
Speaker 1: like Al Sharpton and you know, other prominent black people
Speaker 1: back when this was released. But I remember my dad
Speaker 1: had a VHS of just like Whitney Houston videos and
Speaker 1: stuff like that. And I remember as a kid watching
Speaker 1: that video and she was so happy and you know,
Speaker 1: I in the hair, you know, like it was just
Speaker 1: so beautiful, and I just thought she was the most
Speaker 1: beautiful woman. And I was like, yes, how nice would
Speaker 1: that be to dance with somebody who loves you?
Speaker 2: Like how ideal?
Speaker 1: Like I just I remember so vividly as a kid
Speaker 1: being just like so enthralled by this video. And my
Speaker 1: dad also had this ther original record you know where
Speaker 1: she's got the I think her hair is pulled back,
Speaker 1: but it looked like she had just like a low,
Speaker 1: like shaved head, and I just like, yeah, all you
Speaker 1: see is her stunning face, and I'm like, wow, this
Speaker 1: is the most beautiful woman. I just I remember being
Speaker 1: so touched by her music so early on in my life.
Speaker 1: I mean, The Bodyguard was my favorite movie. I wanted
Speaker 1: to be an actress because of The Bodyguard. Like, I mean,
Speaker 1: there's just so much waiting to exhale. Is like, hands down,
Speaker 1: the best soundtrack that has ever existed to a movie.
Speaker 1: You know, She's just she was so gifted and she
Speaker 1: was so talented. And then when I found out later
Speaker 1: on that she has literally produced like all the teen
Speaker 1: girl movies, like the Princess Diaries, and I mean just
Speaker 1: she she did so much that shaped my childhood, including Cinderella.
Speaker 1: I mean that, you know, we definitely that was appointment television.
Speaker 1: We stopped everything as a family to watch Cinderella and
Speaker 1: to watch Brandy, who I also loved so much, be
Speaker 1: the first black Cinderella and to have Whitney Houston be
Speaker 1: the godmother. I mean it just there are so many
Speaker 1: things and so many of those songs as well. Like
Speaker 1: I just I remember always having this kind of countercultural
Speaker 1: mind as a kid and just these ideas, these feminist
Speaker 1: ideas that I didn't know what the words were or
Speaker 1: how to describe them, but like I just felt like
Speaker 1: Whitney Houston in her music and definitely the music in Cinderella,
Speaker 1: Like it was so much about, you know, just feeling
Speaker 1: empowered as a woman and not taking the positions that
Speaker 1: we are put in into society laying down, you know,
Speaker 1: to to fight to be an individual and to use
Speaker 1: your own voice. And so then to later find out
Speaker 1: that there were so many ways that Whitney was not
Speaker 1: allowed to do that, it's just very devastating, being very
Speaker 1: hard to hear an experience, and you know, it definitely
Speaker 1: gave me fuel to make sure that I and the
Speaker 1: people around me as much as possible were given the
Speaker 1: space to be who they are and to be celebrated
Speaker 1: and supported for who they are, so that nothing like
Speaker 1: this would ever happen. It's a tragedy that we lost
Speaker 1: to Whitney Houston, and it was so unnecessary we did.
Speaker 1: It didn't have to be this way. We could have
Speaker 1: made a society that was not queer phobic, that was
Speaker 1: not lesblophobic, that was not anti black, that was not misogynistic,
Speaker 1: that would have allowed Whitney Houston to thrive. And we
Speaker 1: you know, we all can play a role in creating
Speaker 1: that world so that it doesn't happen to another person.
Speaker 2: That's so beautiful and so right.
Speaker 1: I mean, Whitney taught me that nothing is worth living
Speaker 1: your authentic life and living your authentic truth exactly.
Speaker 2: That's beautiful, Brooke.
Speaker 1: Is there anything that I have not asked or have
Speaker 1: not brought up that you want to make sure it
Speaker 1: gets included? I think that was pretty much it. I
Speaker 1: got in my dig about Mark Zuckerberg and justin why
Speaker 1: people accomplished like every chance I can to just be like,
Speaker 1: fuck justin Timberlake, Like I just want to say that
Speaker 1: Zuckerberg can go to hell, Like that's it. I think
Speaker 1: that's I think we're good.
Speaker 2: I do love that.
Speaker 1: Like as a culture, we all kind of collectively are like,
Speaker 1: you know what, fuck fuck justin Timberlake. Everyone I like
Speaker 1: him forever, Like you can't come back from that, like
Speaker 1: it's not pay reparations to Janet or like just be
Speaker 1: quiet forever. Got a story about an interesting thing in tech,
Speaker 1: or just want to say hi? You can read just
Speaker 1: a Hello at tengodi dot com. You can also find
Speaker 1: transcripts for today's episode at tengody dot com. There Are
Speaker 1: No Girls on the Internet was created by me for
Speaker 1: Ja Toad. It's a production of iHeartRadio and an Unbossed creative.
Speaker 1: Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer. Tarry Harrison is our
Speaker 1: producer and sound engineer. Michael Almato is our contributing producer.
Speaker 1: I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If you want to help
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