1 00:00:00,920 --> 00:00:03,520 Speaker 1: Is that healing or is that causing more damage? I 2 00:00:03,520 --> 00:00:06,040 Speaker 1: feel like all the Black Mirror episodes tell us this 3 00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:08,600 Speaker 1: is actually going to cause more damage because this isn't 4 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:10,800 Speaker 1: the real person. Like you want the real person here, 5 00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:16,200 Speaker 1: the real person is not here. 6 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:20,720 Speaker 2: There are No Girls on the Internet. 7 00:00:20,760 --> 00:00:28,160 Speaker 1: As a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative, I'm Bridget 8 00:00:28,200 --> 00:00:31,680 Speaker 1: Todd and this is there are No Girls on the Internet. 9 00:00:33,120 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 1: Musical icon Whitney Houston died in twenty eleven, but that 10 00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:39,640 Speaker 1: hasn't stopped her from performing. She's back from the dead 11 00:00:39,680 --> 00:00:43,879 Speaker 1: and ready to entertain kind of an evening with Whitney. 12 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:47,040 Speaker 1: The Whitney Houston Hologram Tour first debuted in Europe in 13 00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:50,199 Speaker 1: twenty twenty and is currently doing a residency in Las Vegas, 14 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:52,840 Speaker 1: leading up to a possible United States tour next year. 15 00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:56,640 Speaker 1: Whitney's family and a state are involved with the show's production. 16 00:00:57,240 --> 00:00:59,760 Speaker 1: Pat Houston, Whitney's sister and the manager of her estate, 17 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:03,360 Speaker 1: raved about the Hologram show, saying, we're excited to bring 18 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:05,840 Speaker 1: this cutting edge musical experience to the fans who have 19 00:01:05,880 --> 00:01:08,959 Speaker 1: supported the pop culture phenomenon that was Whitney Houston because 20 00:01:08,959 --> 00:01:11,720 Speaker 1: they deserve nothing less, and while that may be true, 21 00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:14,800 Speaker 1: the increasing use of holograms to recreate people who are 22 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:17,240 Speaker 1: no longer living is something that we should at least 23 00:01:17,280 --> 00:01:21,039 Speaker 1: be asking questions about, rather than just accept as another 24 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:24,520 Speaker 1: new normal of our increasingly tech enabled world. In a 25 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:28,319 Speaker 1: piece called the Zombification of Whitney Houston Spirituality, writer Brooke 26 00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:30,679 Speaker 1: Obe asks what right do any of us have to 27 00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:33,840 Speaker 1: demand that our deceased heroes, loved ones, or anyone else 28 00:01:33,959 --> 00:01:38,160 Speaker 1: act as a zombie for our entertainment. I had heard 29 00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:45,039 Speaker 1: about this hologram tour that Whitney Houston's estate we're putting 30 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:48,280 Speaker 1: on in Europe, and it was finally coming to the 31 00:01:48,360 --> 00:01:50,280 Speaker 1: United States. I've been thinking about this for a really 32 00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:52,480 Speaker 1: long time and really haunted by this for a really 33 00:01:52,520 --> 00:01:54,520 Speaker 1: long time, but it was kind of out of sight, 34 00:01:54,560 --> 00:01:55,200 Speaker 1: out of mind. 35 00:01:55,920 --> 00:01:57,360 Speaker 2: But now it is. 36 00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:02,720 Speaker 1: Happening. There's a residency for six months in Vegas of 37 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:06,520 Speaker 1: this Whitney Houston hologram and it was so disturbing to me. 38 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:09,440 Speaker 1: And it was also happening at the same time as Halloween, 39 00:02:09,520 --> 00:02:14,560 Speaker 1: Like they released or they premiered this hologram residency in 40 00:02:14,639 --> 00:02:18,560 Speaker 1: Las Vegas the week of Halloween, and I was like Wow, yep, 41 00:02:18,639 --> 00:02:22,320 Speaker 1: that is perfect. You know, if you want to exhum 42 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:27,240 Speaker 1: some ghosts, if you want to zombiefie an icon, why 43 00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:30,560 Speaker 1: not start the week of Halloween. So yeah, So that 44 00:02:30,639 --> 00:02:33,840 Speaker 1: was really what triggered me finally sitting down and getting 45 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:35,760 Speaker 1: all of my thoughts out of my head and onto 46 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:38,720 Speaker 1: the page. Well, I mean, the Halloween date I think 47 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:43,240 Speaker 1: is so kind of perfect because it is a really spooky, 48 00:02:43,520 --> 00:02:47,680 Speaker 1: haunting kind of thing, especially given that you know, I 49 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:49,640 Speaker 1: feel like for so many of us black women, we 50 00:02:49,720 --> 00:02:52,360 Speaker 1: have this special connection to Whitney Houston. I know that 51 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:55,280 Speaker 1: she occupies a very special place in my heart. Do 52 00:02:55,320 --> 00:02:58,680 Speaker 1: you feel the same way? Absolutely? I Mean, she is everything. 53 00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:02,720 Speaker 1: She's the voice. You know. Her life was so beautiful 54 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:08,960 Speaker 1: and so tragic and so unnecessarily ended, and so it's 55 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:14,640 Speaker 1: it was one of the most devastating celebrity losses that 56 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:18,840 Speaker 1: I've experienced in my life. And you know, I I 57 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:23,280 Speaker 1: was just so sad to see the people that were 58 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:26,359 Speaker 1: around her and the lack of care and the lack 59 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:30,600 Speaker 1: of regard for someone who needed help and assistance and 60 00:03:30,600 --> 00:03:32,920 Speaker 1: and wasn't able to get it and wasn't able to 61 00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:37,360 Speaker 1: live authentically as herself either, and still have the career 62 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:41,040 Speaker 1: that she wanted to have, and so to see what's 63 00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:44,560 Speaker 1: happening now, this is basically the same thing that's happening 64 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:47,160 Speaker 1: in her life is now happening in her death. She 65 00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:51,680 Speaker 1: her image is being constructed for her, you know, without 66 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:55,240 Speaker 1: her consent, and she's being put to work today. The 67 00:03:55,280 --> 00:03:58,680 Speaker 1: term zombies conjures up brains, craving blood vests like Donna 68 00:03:58,720 --> 00:04:02,960 Speaker 1: the Dead, but those pop culture interpretations obscure the actual 69 00:04:03,040 --> 00:04:06,960 Speaker 1: grim origins of zombies and their connection to slavery. I 70 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:11,120 Speaker 1: read this really amazing in depth article in the Atlantic 71 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:16,160 Speaker 1: by Mike Brani and he it was about the tragic 72 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:19,800 Speaker 1: forgotten history of zombies, and so it is. It's talking 73 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:24,919 Speaker 1: about the ways that Haitian enslaved people. Their deepest fear 74 00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:29,679 Speaker 1: was that, you know, if they died by suicide, because 75 00:04:29,800 --> 00:04:33,200 Speaker 1: the plantations were so brutal, the French were so brutal 76 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:37,520 Speaker 1: in their in their slavery of Haitians, that they would 77 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:39,320 Speaker 1: be trapped in their bodies and that they would be 78 00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:44,599 Speaker 1: trapped on these plantations forever. And then once Haitian voodoo evolved, 79 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:51,880 Speaker 1: that zombie mythology evolved as well. And basically there was 80 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:56,520 Speaker 1: a sorcerer that would take these dead bodies and resurrect 81 00:04:56,560 --> 00:04:59,400 Speaker 1: them for evil purposes, you know, and use them for 82 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:02,960 Speaker 1: free labor. And that's what I saw, That's what I 83 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:07,279 Speaker 1: saw in my mind when I heard about this hologram 84 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:12,800 Speaker 1: and this idea of taking Whitney, who was not able 85 00:05:12,839 --> 00:05:15,520 Speaker 1: to rest and not able to control her own image 86 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:20,000 Speaker 1: in her lifetime, now in death, being used for free 87 00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:24,560 Speaker 1: labor once again, and racking in money for the estate 88 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:30,240 Speaker 1: for the next six months in this hologram residency. The 89 00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:32,960 Speaker 1: thing about this that strikes me as particularly sad is 90 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:35,240 Speaker 1: that I saw the waste that Whitney was stripped of 91 00:05:35,240 --> 00:05:39,160 Speaker 1: her humanity and identity in life. Aspects of who Whitney 92 00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:41,160 Speaker 1: was as a person were obscured to make her more 93 00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:46,400 Speaker 1: marketable to mainstream white audiences. Music labels were segregated by race, 94 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:49,960 Speaker 1: and in the beginning, her sound was intentionally manufactured to 95 00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:54,080 Speaker 1: have white crossover appeal. Clive Davis, the head of Arista Records, 96 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:56,960 Speaker 1: signed Whitney when she was just a teenager after an 97 00:05:56,960 --> 00:05:59,000 Speaker 1: A and R rep saw her singing with her mother's 98 00:05:59,080 --> 00:06:02,679 Speaker 1: nightclub act. Davis became a huge force in shaping Whitney's 99 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:06,680 Speaker 1: image and career, he vetoed her releasing anything to black 100 00:06:06,760 --> 00:06:10,279 Speaker 1: sounding for her first two albums. His choice came with 101 00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:12,960 Speaker 1: a real cost for Whitney. At the height of her 102 00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:16,040 Speaker 1: success in the eighties, Whitney was booed by black audiences 103 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:18,440 Speaker 1: at the Soul Train Awards when the host introduced her 104 00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:22,200 Speaker 1: as a nominee for Best R and B Artist. Reverend 105 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:25,200 Speaker 1: Al Sharpton even organized a boycott of her music, calling 106 00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:28,120 Speaker 1: her Whitey Houston on flyers that you can check out 107 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:30,960 Speaker 1: on the link in our show description. Being stripped of 108 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:33,880 Speaker 1: this aspect of her identity was hard for Whitney. Sometimes 109 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:35,760 Speaker 1: it gets you down. You're not black enough for them, 110 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:38,320 Speaker 1: You're not R and B enough, You're very pop. The 111 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:41,280 Speaker 1: white audience has taken you away from them, She explained 112 00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:44,440 Speaker 1: that an interview, and it didn't stop there now. In 113 00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:48,000 Speaker 1: the eighties, the music industry was deeply homophobic, and to 114 00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:51,040 Speaker 1: find mainstream success an artist would sometimes have to conceal 115 00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:54,400 Speaker 1: parts of themselves. So it isn't surprising that Whitney herself 116 00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:57,200 Speaker 1: did not talk openly about her sexuality, and we'll never 117 00:06:57,200 --> 00:06:59,400 Speaker 1: get to hear about it in her own words, But 118 00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:03,200 Speaker 1: her close friend and confidant, Robin Crawford, an openly gay 119 00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:05,919 Speaker 1: black woman who had been decades by Whitney's side as 120 00:07:05,960 --> 00:07:08,880 Speaker 1: her assistant and creative director, opened up about her romantic 121 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:12,480 Speaker 1: relationship with Whitney. They met at summer campus kids and 122 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:15,800 Speaker 1: quickly became inseparable, but soon after Whitney signed with Clive 123 00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:20,040 Speaker 1: Davis at Arista, she ended their intimate relationship because quote, 124 00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:23,040 Speaker 1: it would make our journey even more difficult, Crawford remembers 125 00:07:23,040 --> 00:07:25,200 Speaker 1: in her memoir A Song for You, My life with 126 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:28,760 Speaker 1: Whitney Houston. In the two thousands. The years leading up 127 00:07:28,760 --> 00:07:32,239 Speaker 1: to her tragic death, Whitney dealt with addiction and family issues, 128 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:34,239 Speaker 1: like the two thousand and three arrest of her husband, 129 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:37,000 Speaker 1: Bobby Brown for allegedly hitting her in the face, and 130 00:07:37,080 --> 00:07:39,520 Speaker 1: the same media who'd once been happy to portray her 131 00:07:39,520 --> 00:07:42,840 Speaker 1: as Black America's sweetheart gleefully made her the butt of 132 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:45,480 Speaker 1: jokes for failing to live up to the narrow role 133 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:49,080 Speaker 1: they'd written her into. Whitney wasn't really able to be 134 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:52,000 Speaker 1: her full self when she was alive, and now as 135 00:07:52,040 --> 00:07:54,680 Speaker 1: a hologram, rendered back to life without any of the 136 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:58,080 Speaker 1: baggage that comes with being a complex living person, Whitney 137 00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:00,840 Speaker 1: is now an always on, always came already version of 138 00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:03,880 Speaker 1: herself who can perform on command and generate income for 139 00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:04,720 Speaker 1: others forever. 140 00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:07,840 Speaker 2: And in a way, the hologram. 141 00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:10,000 Speaker 1: Suggests that that's what music executives really wanted from her 142 00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:10,600 Speaker 1: all along. 143 00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 2: I was really struck by in your piece. 144 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:16,920 Speaker 1: It's sort of that element of you know that these 145 00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:20,040 Speaker 1: Haitian enslaved people, how they that was like their deepest fear, 146 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:24,680 Speaker 1: you know, being exhumed, being reanimated, and being trapped in 147 00:08:24,880 --> 00:08:28,160 Speaker 1: this cycle of having to work to make money from 148 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:32,320 Speaker 1: their labor forever. And how deeply kind of sad that is, 149 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:35,160 Speaker 1: not being able to rest given the kind of life 150 00:08:35,160 --> 00:08:37,880 Speaker 1: that Whitney Houston did live. And I think there's something 151 00:08:37,960 --> 00:08:42,160 Speaker 1: so incredibly sad but also relatable about the life that 152 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:44,920 Speaker 1: Whitney Houston lived. You know, in order for her to 153 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:47,360 Speaker 1: be to be sort of like marketable as an artist, 154 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:50,280 Speaker 1: she was stripped from so much of what made her 155 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:54,240 Speaker 1: her write, her blackness, her queerness, so much of like 156 00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:57,400 Speaker 1: the things that made Whitney who she was. And I 157 00:08:57,400 --> 00:09:01,120 Speaker 1: feel that, you know, she played that game, and then 158 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:03,920 Speaker 1: when she stepped away to be a more authentic version 159 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:07,320 Speaker 1: of herself, how quickly America turned on her. 160 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:10,160 Speaker 2: How quickly America turned her into a joke. 161 00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:13,199 Speaker 1: And so I do think there's some sort of cautionary 162 00:09:13,280 --> 00:09:15,559 Speaker 1: tale about this tightrope that we all have to walk 163 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:17,920 Speaker 1: as black women, and that's why so many of us 164 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:21,600 Speaker 1: identify with her, but as this hologram. It's like in 165 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:24,600 Speaker 1: her death, they have been able to strip her from 166 00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:27,400 Speaker 1: all of these things that make her her so that 167 00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:30,160 Speaker 1: they have this marketable version that they can just make 168 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:32,720 Speaker 1: money off of. You know, they don't have to include 169 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:36,199 Speaker 1: her blackness, her queerness, her addiction issues, her family issues. 170 00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:39,760 Speaker 1: She can just be a hologram, money maker, money maker 171 00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:43,880 Speaker 1: for them in death forever, right, And it's probably a 172 00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:46,760 Speaker 1: lot more profitable for them with her, you know, not 173 00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:51,240 Speaker 1: being able to be alive and to have the issues 174 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:54,960 Speaker 1: that she was dealing with. You know, she you don't 175 00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:56,640 Speaker 1: have to worry about whether or not she's going to 176 00:09:56,720 --> 00:09:59,360 Speaker 1: go out on stage because they can put her out 177 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 1: whenever they want. Like it's it's really like I was 178 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:05,360 Speaker 1: saying in my piece, it's it's that the worst Black 179 00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:09,400 Speaker 1: Mirror episode. That's a very very brilliant show. But there 180 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:12,520 Speaker 1: is an episode with Miley Cyrus that's basically the same thing. 181 00:10:12,559 --> 00:10:15,360 Speaker 1: They have this pop star that they're putting forcing into 182 00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:19,360 Speaker 1: a coma and then using her you know, music and 183 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:24,000 Speaker 1: using all all sorts of other technologies to project her 184 00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:26,760 Speaker 1: onto a stage so that she will behave the way 185 00:10:26,760 --> 00:10:29,480 Speaker 1: that they want her to behave. It's not a very 186 00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:33,160 Speaker 1: good episode, but you know, the concept, you know, is 187 00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:36,920 Speaker 1: definitely what's happening here. And you know, we've heard so 188 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:44,040 Speaker 1: much about how dangerous and unsafe it is for women 189 00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:46,319 Speaker 1: and black women in particular in the music industry, and 190 00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:48,360 Speaker 1: so I have no doubt that there are plenty of 191 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:51,360 Speaker 1: executives who would be all about, you know, how can 192 00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:53,840 Speaker 1: we just make money off of this person and not 193 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:55,960 Speaker 1: have who they actually are get in the way of 194 00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:59,839 Speaker 1: our money. Some musicians, like Anderson Pak don't want to 195 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:03,840 Speaker 1: it up for executives or estate executors to sort out 196 00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:06,440 Speaker 1: in the event of his death. Last year, the musician 197 00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:09,080 Speaker 1: got a tattoo on his forearm reading when I'm gone, 198 00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 1: please don't release any posthumous albums or song with my 199 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:14,839 Speaker 1: name attached. Those were just demos and never intended to 200 00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:17,520 Speaker 1: be heard by the public. He debuted this tattoo in 201 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:20,280 Speaker 1: August of twenty twenty, just a few months after the 202 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:25,160 Speaker 1: Late Princes, previously unreleased album Welcome to America was posthumously released. 203 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:28,400 Speaker 1: While the album earned critical praise, I really can't say 204 00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:30,640 Speaker 1: if the artist who died without a will and was 205 00:11:30,679 --> 00:11:34,160 Speaker 1: so notoriously protective of ownership over his music and likeness 206 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:36,720 Speaker 1: that he changed his name to an unpronounceable symbol from 207 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:39,600 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety three to two thousand would have wanted this 208 00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:40,360 Speaker 1: album to see. 209 00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:40,760 Speaker 2: The light of day. 210 00:11:41,760 --> 00:11:44,080 Speaker 1: You talk about all these different black artists who have 211 00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:47,079 Speaker 1: taken great steps to avoid their likeness being used in 212 00:11:47,120 --> 00:11:50,120 Speaker 1: these ways after death, you know, including Anderson Pox's tattoo. 213 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:52,520 Speaker 1: That's like, you know, if I die, please do not 214 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:54,720 Speaker 1: use my likeness or release any songs that were not 215 00:11:54,760 --> 00:11:57,160 Speaker 1: meant to be released to the public. Do you think 216 00:11:57,200 --> 00:12:01,240 Speaker 1: that there is this, like the societ little expectation that 217 00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:04,440 Speaker 1: black artists specifically are just sort of there to be 218 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:08,920 Speaker 1: mined for their creativity for entertainment and profit even in death, 219 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:13,120 Speaker 1: and that like, specifically that we as black folks are 220 00:12:13,559 --> 00:12:18,720 Speaker 1: just expected to be these never ending wells of profit 221 00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:23,280 Speaker 1: generating creativity just forever, and like technology would certainly like 222 00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:29,079 Speaker 1: facilitate that absolutely. Okay, So there's this great music journalist 223 00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:32,400 Speaker 1: named Simon Reynolds who actually coined the term ghost slavery 224 00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:36,040 Speaker 1: when talking about this topic. And that's you know what 225 00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:40,120 Speaker 1: slavery is, right, It was created for in America. It 226 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:46,720 Speaker 1: was created to enslave mostly African people, but also indigenous people, 227 00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:49,160 Speaker 1: you know, in order to work for free and to 228 00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:51,679 Speaker 1: build their wealth. And so absolutely this is just another 229 00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:55,600 Speaker 1: extension of that. You know, I do believe that, you know, 230 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:59,080 Speaker 1: black musicians and entertainers have been the people who've been 231 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:02,640 Speaker 1: able to kind of bring through a bit of these 232 00:13:02,679 --> 00:13:05,920 Speaker 1: white supremacist layers that exist in this country that this 233 00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:10,160 Speaker 1: country was founded on. But they only want you to 234 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:12,600 Speaker 1: be able to do that to a certain extent, and 235 00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:16,720 Speaker 1: especially if you start to become political, or if you 236 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:19,880 Speaker 1: start to become a problem in any way that could jeopardize, 237 00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:24,440 Speaker 1: for one, white supremacy or you know, any of the 238 00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:27,240 Speaker 1: structures that are in place, you get a little too mouthy, 239 00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:31,199 Speaker 1: a little too uppity as a black person, of course, 240 00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:33,040 Speaker 1: they want to put you back in the in their place. 241 00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:36,360 Speaker 1: So I do feel like if you know, they as 242 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:41,840 Speaker 1: long as the music is bringing profit, there won't be 243 00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:45,600 Speaker 1: a problem. But if there is a way to control 244 00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:49,280 Speaker 1: black artists as much as possible. That's what's going to happen. 245 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:51,880 Speaker 1: You know, We've seen it in these three sixty deals. 246 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:54,920 Speaker 1: We've seen it in so many different ways in the 247 00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:59,480 Speaker 1: music industry, and that is what I think. That's kind 248 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:02,080 Speaker 1: of why I reac honest over, like, why would I 249 00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:05,040 Speaker 1: stay here this? You know, you can't even make money 250 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:06,640 Speaker 1: in the same way you have to be on the road. 251 00:14:06,679 --> 00:14:09,040 Speaker 1: You have to do all of these different things as 252 00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:12,440 Speaker 1: artists in order to maintain your integrity and to make money. 253 00:14:12,840 --> 00:14:15,840 Speaker 1: It's just a lot more difficult today to be able 254 00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:18,120 Speaker 1: to do that. So yeah, I mean, I think people 255 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:20,400 Speaker 1: are starting to understand that and starting to come up 256 00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:24,000 Speaker 1: with other ways to protect themselves. I don't think a 257 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:27,760 Speaker 1: tattoo is gonna do it. I hope Anderson Pac has 258 00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:30,800 Speaker 1: another plan, like a will. 259 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:49,440 Speaker 2: Print. 260 00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:53,920 Speaker 1: Superfans myself very much included Pans a Super Bowl twenty 261 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:57,080 Speaker 1: eighteen halftime show when it was announced that Justin Timberlake 262 00:14:57,120 --> 00:14:59,920 Speaker 1: was going to perform with the Prince hologram, because Print 263 00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:02,840 Speaker 1: specifically said that he did not want to be brought 264 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:05,560 Speaker 1: back to life as a hologram when he was asked 265 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:08,000 Speaker 1: about it in a nineteen ninety eight interview with Guitar World, 266 00:15:08,200 --> 00:15:11,880 Speaker 1: Prince said, certainly not. That is the most demonic thing imaginable. 267 00:15:12,160 --> 00:15:14,080 Speaker 1: Everything is as it is and as it should be. 268 00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:16,280 Speaker 1: If I was meant to jam with Duke Ellington, we 269 00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:18,960 Speaker 1: would have lived in the same age. The whole virtual 270 00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:21,480 Speaker 1: reality thing, it is really demonic, and I am not 271 00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:24,200 Speaker 1: a demon. Also, what they did with that Beatles song, 272 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:26,960 Speaker 1: manipulating John Lennon's voice to have him singing from across 273 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:29,480 Speaker 1: the grave. That'll never happen to me. To prevent that 274 00:15:29,560 --> 00:15:31,400 Speaker 1: kind of thing from happening is another reason why I 275 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:35,080 Speaker 1: want artistic control. So Prince absolutely did not want to 276 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:37,880 Speaker 1: be a hologram. And what's even worse is that Prince 277 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:40,960 Speaker 1: didn't even really seem to like justin Timberlake. The two 278 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:43,160 Speaker 1: had a whole history of making shady digs at each 279 00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:46,240 Speaker 1: other while Prince was still alive. So bringing Prince back 280 00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:48,520 Speaker 1: as a hologram against his wishes to jam with the 281 00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:51,280 Speaker 1: musician he didn't even really like, just seem like adding 282 00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:54,320 Speaker 1: insult to injury. Now, in the end, the Super Bowl 283 00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:57,400 Speaker 1: halftime show didn't technically use a hologram. It was more 284 00:15:57,400 --> 00:16:01,000 Speaker 1: of a projection of Prince performing on a screen. Paired 285 00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:04,760 Speaker 1: up alongside Justin's performance, I think that was the problem 286 00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:09,400 Speaker 1: with Prince. Prince also spoke out quite a bit about 287 00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:13,480 Speaker 1: you know, how he thought holograms were demonic, that he 288 00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:16,360 Speaker 1: would never want that for his life and said that 289 00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:19,200 Speaker 1: this is never gonna happen to me. But you know, 290 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:22,400 Speaker 1: we did see that performance with Justin Timberlake at the 291 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:25,120 Speaker 1: super Bowl. What is supposed to be a tribute? And 292 00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:27,600 Speaker 1: I think it really was supposed to be a hologram. 293 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:30,920 Speaker 1: And I think if not for the outcry of the public, 294 00:16:31,120 --> 00:16:34,600 Speaker 1: because the public did know that Prince didn't want that, 295 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:37,560 Speaker 1: that they kind of maybe changed it to something else. 296 00:16:38,560 --> 00:16:41,080 Speaker 1: You know, we still saw a projection of Prince, but 297 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:45,480 Speaker 1: it wasn't quite a hologram. But you know, when the 298 00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:49,520 Speaker 1: estate has control over your likeness, they can do whatever 299 00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:52,440 Speaker 1: they want, you know, unless you're explicitly in your will 300 00:16:52,520 --> 00:16:54,920 Speaker 1: saying this is what this isn't what you want. And 301 00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:58,400 Speaker 1: Prince died in Testate, so you know they have complete 302 00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:02,000 Speaker 1: control his estate to do whatever they want to do 303 00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:03,120 Speaker 1: with his image. 304 00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:03,880 Speaker 2: And so that's why you. 305 00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:06,640 Speaker 1: See these commercials with his music in that you never 306 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:09,199 Speaker 1: saw before. You you see people being able to go 307 00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:11,959 Speaker 1: to Paisley Park, which he would never want, you know, 308 00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:14,879 Speaker 1: So there's just so many things that can happen to 309 00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:18,240 Speaker 1: you once you're dead. And you know, we've been looking 310 00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:21,359 Speaker 1: at it from a perspective of you know, celebrities, but 311 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:24,480 Speaker 1: I think this is definitely something that's going to start 312 00:17:24,840 --> 00:17:28,920 Speaker 1: impacting our regular day to day lives in the near 313 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:29,879 Speaker 1: future as well. 314 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:31,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, let's talk about that. 315 00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:34,200 Speaker 1: So in your piece you bring up you argue that 316 00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:39,320 Speaker 1: the announcement that Facebook slash meta if you want to 317 00:17:39,359 --> 00:17:42,359 Speaker 1: say that, like their whole argument or their whole announcement 318 00:17:42,359 --> 00:17:45,640 Speaker 1: about the metaverse, do you think that the vibe is 319 00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:49,320 Speaker 1: that they want that our sort of tech overlords want 320 00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:52,720 Speaker 1: to be able to reproduce and reanimate anyone, famous or 321 00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:55,800 Speaker 1: non famous, anyone anywhere, and that that will be a common, 322 00:17:56,160 --> 00:18:00,760 Speaker 1: a common you know, technological advancement available to every in 323 00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:01,600 Speaker 1: our tech future. 324 00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:03,240 Speaker 2: Do you think that that's like what they're after. 325 00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:08,920 Speaker 1: I mean, I think that is just a thing that 326 00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:13,680 Speaker 1: happens when the technology is available. So, you know, especially 327 00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:17,000 Speaker 1: when people like Mark Zuckerberg and the rest of our 328 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:20,399 Speaker 1: tech overlords are concerned about profit or like we've seen, 329 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:26,160 Speaker 1: you know, several former Facebook employees coming forward and sharing 330 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:32,160 Speaker 1: damning information showing that Facebook is a company, slash Meta 331 00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:37,119 Speaker 1: is a company that is for profits over people every 332 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:41,000 Speaker 1: single time. This is just something that could happen as 333 00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:43,800 Speaker 1: a result of that. You know, you provide the technology, 334 00:18:44,119 --> 00:18:46,159 Speaker 1: it's going to happen. It's just like you create a 335 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:50,000 Speaker 1: platform where people can express their opinions. There's gonna be harassment. 336 00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:52,879 Speaker 1: You know, there's gonna be racism, there's gonna be terrorism, 337 00:18:52,960 --> 00:18:56,040 Speaker 1: there's gonna be all these other things, and so you know, 338 00:18:56,080 --> 00:19:00,119 Speaker 1: if you're not actively preventing that from happening, then of 339 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:02,159 Speaker 1: course it's going to happen. You're giving people the space 340 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:05,240 Speaker 1: to do what people do. In the wake of the 341 00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:08,000 Speaker 1: twenty twenty racial justice protests all around the globe, after 342 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:10,400 Speaker 1: the murder of George Floyd, an unarmed black man killed 343 00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:13,440 Speaker 1: by police, Change dot Org and the George Floyd Foundation 344 00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:16,119 Speaker 1: created a three D hologram of the late George Floyd 345 00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:20,000 Speaker 1: to be projected onto Confederate monuments in the South. George 346 00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:23,000 Speaker 1: Floyd's brother, Rodney Floyd, said, since the death of my 347 00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:25,639 Speaker 1: brother George, his face has been seen all over the world. 348 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:28,520 Speaker 1: The hologram will allow my brother's face to be seen 349 00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:30,800 Speaker 1: as a symbol for change in places where changes needed 350 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:33,320 Speaker 1: the most. I had the chance to see the projection 351 00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:36,560 Speaker 1: in Richmond, and it really was powerful. So holograms can 352 00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:38,480 Speaker 1: be a way for a family to heal and grieve 353 00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:41,880 Speaker 1: and turn their loss into something larger. But when someone's 354 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:44,760 Speaker 1: likeness becomes a symbol in this way, it's not always 355 00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:48,159 Speaker 1: empowering and respectful, and also opens up the possibility that 356 00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:51,040 Speaker 1: their likeness could be used in offensive ways. For instance, 357 00:19:51,359 --> 00:19:56,320 Speaker 1: Floydy's is a collection of jokey NFTs that pixelated images 358 00:19:56,400 --> 00:20:00,000 Speaker 1: of George Floyd with red eyes have co opted his image, 359 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:04,800 Speaker 1: seemingly to intentionally create outrage. We've seen this recently with 360 00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:09,000 Speaker 1: George Floyd. You know, he was celebritized in his death 361 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:12,280 Speaker 1: and just his image has been I think one of 362 00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:16,720 Speaker 1: the most exploited in in recent history. And for him 363 00:20:17,359 --> 00:20:21,119 Speaker 1: for his image to go on a hologram tour of 364 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:26,200 Speaker 1: the South to all of these former Confederate statue locations 365 00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:29,960 Speaker 1: you know, by and that was, you know, something that 366 00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:32,360 Speaker 1: was supported by his family. His family was behind that, 367 00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:36,760 Speaker 1: along with change dot Org. And so I just think 368 00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:41,280 Speaker 1: when people are grieving, whether it's an icon that you 369 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:46,440 Speaker 1: loved or you know, a dear loved one, a friend 370 00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:50,439 Speaker 1: or family member that you love, like people find ways 371 00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:56,359 Speaker 1: to grieve, and you know, virtual reality, augmented reality, these 372 00:20:56,400 --> 00:21:00,840 Speaker 1: are becoming more and more available in a four for 373 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:04,159 Speaker 1: everyday people. I know, I have an Oculus that was 374 00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:10,120 Speaker 1: given to me by HBO p R. During Lovecraft Country's run, 375 00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:15,760 Speaker 1: they had some activations in in the Oculus world VR 376 00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:19,040 Speaker 1: world that they wanted press to see and they did 377 00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:22,040 Speaker 1: a concert, a hologram concert. The point is that they 378 00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:26,680 Speaker 1: want this to be a regular situation. They want everybody 379 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:29,720 Speaker 1: to have an Oculus, especially at Facebook just bought Oculus, 380 00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:35,000 Speaker 1: you know, shortly shortly after HBO did all those Acciva 381 00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:38,359 Speaker 1: activations in Oculus, and so now you have to sign 382 00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:41,479 Speaker 1: in with your Facebook account in order to to use that. 383 00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:45,720 Speaker 1: So this is definitely something that is going to be 384 00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:50,320 Speaker 1: available to a great deal of people. And you can 385 00:21:50,359 --> 00:21:53,880 Speaker 1: create avatars, and so who's to say somebody won't create 386 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:58,720 Speaker 1: an avatar based on their loved one, you know, And 387 00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:00,879 Speaker 1: I think, you know, we really have to decide, like 388 00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:04,240 Speaker 1: whose life is the most important? 389 00:22:05,119 --> 00:22:05,359 Speaker 2: Is it? 390 00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:08,000 Speaker 1: You know, the wishes of the person who's now dead 391 00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:10,760 Speaker 1: or the person who's still alive, and wants to grieve 392 00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:14,040 Speaker 1: and needs to grieve, and you know, however they choose 393 00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:16,440 Speaker 1: to grieve, you know, should be okay, I mean it's 394 00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:20,200 Speaker 1: it's definitely something that we should all be thinking about, 395 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:23,439 Speaker 1: So not just musicians and not just with tattoos, like 396 00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:26,080 Speaker 1: we need to start putting this in our wills, like 397 00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:48,639 Speaker 1: don't use my image in any of these ways. Brook 398 00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:50,280 Speaker 1: is right that this is actually a thing that we 399 00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:53,520 Speaker 1: will probably be seeing more and more of. Entertainment lawyer 400 00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:57,639 Speaker 1: Brian Tuck wrote about this extensively. He writes, expect a 401 00:22:57,680 --> 00:22:59,560 Speaker 1: lot more of this in the future. Look at the 402 00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:02,440 Speaker 1: trends and Hollywood, where major studios crank out the same 403 00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:06,280 Speaker 1: or similar blockbuster projects one after the next. The major studios, 404 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:09,120 Speaker 1: by and large are not risk takers. They want bankable 405 00:23:09,119 --> 00:23:12,560 Speaker 1: stars who better than a superstar from yesterday, that can 406 00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:16,560 Speaker 1: be completely controlled via voice acting and digital rendering. This 407 00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:18,880 Speaker 1: digital actor will never show up to work late, get 408 00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:21,879 Speaker 1: arrested for public drunkenness, or be involved in any scandal 409 00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:24,240 Speaker 1: of the types that we've seen in recent years that 410 00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:27,520 Speaker 1: cause an entire production to stop. It is highly likely 411 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:32,000 Speaker 1: that these digital resurrections or recreations will absolutely become commonplace. 412 00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:36,879 Speaker 1: It's such an interesting peek into kind of a bleak 413 00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:38,920 Speaker 1: tech future. Like a big part of what we talk 414 00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:42,400 Speaker 1: about on this show is like imagining what our collective 415 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:44,520 Speaker 1: futures will look like with technology, and some of it 416 00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:47,399 Speaker 1: is very beautiful, but some of it is very bleak. 417 00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:52,200 Speaker 1: And so this idea of being ready for whatever bleak 418 00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:55,199 Speaker 1: thing will be the next iteration of our tech future, 419 00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:57,239 Speaker 1: I think is a really really good kind of like 420 00:23:57,320 --> 00:24:01,160 Speaker 1: cautionary point. And I also think, you know, talking about 421 00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:04,560 Speaker 1: how Facebook bought Oculus, there was a time where Facebook's 422 00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:07,680 Speaker 1: motto was move fast and break things right. Like their 423 00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:11,480 Speaker 1: entire thing was just like keep going, keep going, move, move, move, 424 00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:14,639 Speaker 1: don't stop and think about the ramifications. Don't stop and 425 00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:16,879 Speaker 1: think about the precedent that you're setting, don't stop and 426 00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:19,440 Speaker 1: think about how this thing will be misused or can 427 00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:22,439 Speaker 1: be you know, can result in real world harms. Just 428 00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:25,399 Speaker 1: keep moving, just move fast. And I wonder if it's if, 429 00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:28,919 Speaker 1: if that attitude, if that climate, has really got us 430 00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:33,240 Speaker 1: in a place where we are making so many new 431 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:37,840 Speaker 1: technological advances and then normalizing them work or making them commonplace, 432 00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:41,159 Speaker 1: but not stopping to think about what they will what 433 00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:43,600 Speaker 1: kind of future they will actually create. Like in your 434 00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:46,000 Speaker 1: piece you use this great Prince quote. If I was 435 00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:48,200 Speaker 1: meant to jam with Duke Ellington, we would have lived 436 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:50,359 Speaker 1: at the same time. And I wonder is there an 437 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:53,919 Speaker 1: element here of focusing so much of what we you know, 438 00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:57,280 Speaker 1: could do or can do that nobody is pumping the 439 00:24:57,320 --> 00:24:58,520 Speaker 1: brakes and thinking. 440 00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:00,880 Speaker 2: What should we be doing? Is this right? 441 00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:03,800 Speaker 1: Is this going to make for a better, brighter future 442 00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:09,320 Speaker 1: or a more harmful, more bleak future? Exactly exactly? And 443 00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:11,760 Speaker 1: you know, I think it's the same with concerts. You know, 444 00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:14,560 Speaker 1: we should have gone out to see Whitney Houston in concert. 445 00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:17,320 Speaker 1: If we did it, Wow, we really messed up. You know. 446 00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:21,600 Speaker 1: That should make us be even more vigilant about going 447 00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:24,320 Speaker 1: to see Beyonce, going to see Stevie Wonder, going to 448 00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:27,200 Speaker 1: see all these other people that we love who are 449 00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:28,960 Speaker 1: icons while we. 450 00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:29,520 Speaker 2: Have the chance. 451 00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:34,760 Speaker 1: That's that's what life does. Life teaches us, you know, lessons, 452 00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:38,520 Speaker 1: And the point is not to create a world where 453 00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:42,080 Speaker 1: we didn't you know, miss the boat. It's to learn 454 00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:45,280 Speaker 1: from the mistakes and to try better, you know, with 455 00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:48,679 Speaker 1: the information that you have now. So I mean, I 456 00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:52,679 Speaker 1: definitely think it is. It's teaching us a dangerous lesson 457 00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:57,960 Speaker 1: that you know, technology, we can use technology to you know, 458 00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:03,000 Speaker 1: erase history, and that's not the point. The point should 459 00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:04,800 Speaker 1: not be to erase history. It should be to learn 460 00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:07,639 Speaker 1: from history and grow from history and do better. And 461 00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:09,920 Speaker 1: I think, you know, when we see, you know, someone 462 00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:15,480 Speaker 1: like Kanye West, who created this hologram of Kim Kardashian's 463 00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:21,600 Speaker 1: father who's been passed away for for decades now, and 464 00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:24,760 Speaker 1: to have him show up at Kim's fortieth birthday party 465 00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:28,919 Speaker 1: and tell her all these things that you know, you 466 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:33,000 Speaker 1: may want a father to tell you. But it's just 467 00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:38,280 Speaker 1: like he isn't actually saying these words, you know, this 468 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:43,080 Speaker 1: isn't he has no you know, concepts. Perhaps I mean, 469 00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:44,960 Speaker 1: we don't really know, but I mean like this hologram 470 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:47,159 Speaker 1: definitely has no concept of what's going on in the 471 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:51,080 Speaker 1: present world, you know, has no idea about you know, 472 00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:53,439 Speaker 1: her children or any of that. Like it was just 473 00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:56,240 Speaker 1: so odd and you know, personally, I would have divorced 474 00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:59,080 Speaker 1: him off of this alone. But you know that's just 475 00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:04,520 Speaker 1: I definitely see us creating holograms of our dead loved 476 00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:06,760 Speaker 1: ones to be at our weddings and to be at 477 00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:09,360 Speaker 1: the births of our children. And all of these things, 478 00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:16,159 Speaker 1: you know, And I'm just I just wonder if that 479 00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:19,520 Speaker 1: is actually I'm not a psychologist in any way, but 480 00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:22,879 Speaker 1: I do wonder what the psychological impact of those things 481 00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:26,200 Speaker 1: will be. Is that healing or is that causing more damage? 482 00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:28,600 Speaker 1: I feel like all the Black Mirror episodes tell us 483 00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:31,080 Speaker 1: this is actually going to cause more damage because this 484 00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:33,560 Speaker 1: isn't the real person. Like you want the real person here, 485 00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:36,480 Speaker 1: the real person is not here. So this fake stand 486 00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:39,719 Speaker 1: in is not doing it, and they're not gonna do it. 487 00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:43,040 Speaker 1: And the point is to learn how to move through grief, 488 00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:49,320 Speaker 1: how to expand through grief, how to increase the amount 489 00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:51,920 Speaker 1: of love that you put out into the world as 490 00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:57,879 Speaker 1: a result of the grief, you know. So I am concerned. 491 00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:01,480 Speaker 1: I am really concerned. And after a company called Kalita 492 00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:04,920 Speaker 1: created a hologram of Kim Kardashian's late father, they said 493 00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:07,480 Speaker 1: they were flooded with request to do the same for regular, 494 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:11,320 Speaker 1: though presumably wealthy people asking for hologram recreations of their 495 00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:15,399 Speaker 1: loved ones. And companies like Deep Nostalgia, which uses AI 496 00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:18,520 Speaker 1: to create digital renderings of loved ones that smile and move, 497 00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:22,040 Speaker 1: are already incredibly popular with people who want to feel 498 00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:24,480 Speaker 1: more connected to their lost loved ones. So could this 499 00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:26,840 Speaker 1: be a useful way to process grief in the past. 500 00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:30,160 Speaker 1: In a piece for The Fall called Deep Fakes, Dead 501 00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:34,439 Speaker 1: Relatives and Digital Resurrection, doctor Elaine Cassett, psychologist and the 502 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:36,679 Speaker 1: author of All the Ghosts in the Machines, says that 503 00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:39,960 Speaker 1: right now tech is ushered in new territory of collapsing 504 00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:43,400 Speaker 1: the dead and the living together. Tech companies are the 505 00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:46,320 Speaker 1: keepers of this information with a one size fits all 506 00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:49,840 Speaker 1: memorialization mechanism. They've got ideas about what's good for you, 507 00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:54,080 Speaker 1: and grief and bereavement are baked into the design. She says, 508 00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:56,640 Speaker 1: I've been in therapy for a very long time, and 509 00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:59,440 Speaker 1: one of my therapists kind of repeated mantras to me 510 00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:00,600 Speaker 1: is there are no. 511 00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:03,480 Speaker 2: Shortcuts to grieving. There's no shortcuts to processing. 512 00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:06,520 Speaker 1: And so, you know, if there was a tech a 513 00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:11,640 Speaker 1: technology enabled future that allowed me to experience things that 514 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:16,000 Speaker 1: I'm like I never got to experience, or you know, basically. 515 00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:17,760 Speaker 2: I there's no shortcut to processing. 516 00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:20,400 Speaker 1: And so if I was able to have a hologram 517 00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:25,520 Speaker 1: of you know, the perfect solution, like a perfect recreation 518 00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:27,880 Speaker 1: of what I wish, I always had. I am then 519 00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:30,440 Speaker 1: not doing the work of processing the fact that I 520 00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:33,680 Speaker 1: never got that in reality, right, like, and there is 521 00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:37,280 Speaker 1: no shortcut to process, and you just have to move 522 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:39,800 Speaker 1: through it and make peace with it. And I guess 523 00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:44,560 Speaker 1: I wonder if we're enabling the if technology is enabling 524 00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:48,440 Speaker 1: us to think of things as shortcuts, like if. 525 00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:50,800 Speaker 2: You didn't if you didn't appreciate Whitney Houston. 526 00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:53,520 Speaker 1: When she was here, and or worse, you got on 527 00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:57,479 Speaker 1: the pop culture bandwagon of mocking her and and like 528 00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:00,880 Speaker 1: mocking her humanity, maybe you shouldn't get to have a 529 00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:04,280 Speaker 1: future enabled by technology where you can go see her 530 00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:07,240 Speaker 1: anytime you want, for as long as you live. Maybe 531 00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:10,680 Speaker 1: you shouldn't be processing why it is that you treated 532 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:12,480 Speaker 1: her that way when she was living. 533 00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:18,200 Speaker 2: And I wonder if this technology is building in these shortcuts. 534 00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:20,320 Speaker 1: For not having to do that deep work of processing 535 00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:23,040 Speaker 1: what it is we do while we're here to people 536 00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:27,920 Speaker 1: who are actual humans. Absolutely absolutely, And you know it's 537 00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:30,920 Speaker 1: interesting because I also I write fiction, you know, and 538 00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:36,720 Speaker 1: a part of my process is reimagination. You know. I 539 00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:39,360 Speaker 1: have a whole novel that like reimagines the ending of 540 00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:43,160 Speaker 1: slavery in a way that is empowering for black people 541 00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:45,920 Speaker 1: in a way that sets us off on a different 542 00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:50,280 Speaker 1: future as a way of processing the ways in which 543 00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:56,080 Speaker 1: we are existing in this present, terrible future as a 544 00:30:56,120 --> 00:31:00,720 Speaker 1: result of slavery that has not been addressed or repaired 545 00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:03,720 Speaker 1: or you know, and it's now trying to be you know, 546 00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:10,280 Speaker 1: by these right wing extremists, you know, being erased from 547 00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:13,240 Speaker 1: our history and from you know, being taught in schools. 548 00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:22,080 Speaker 1: So I'm just you know, I understand the ideology behind, 549 00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:28,360 Speaker 1: you know, how reimaginations can help process and help heal 550 00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:32,959 Speaker 1: and move through grief. I'm just wondering what the limitations are, 551 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:37,720 Speaker 1: you know, I'm wondering, you know, what is I think 552 00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:40,680 Speaker 1: our tech overlord should be thinking what is the worst 553 00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:45,080 Speaker 1: that could happen and putting up safeguards right now, and 554 00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:49,280 Speaker 1: they're not going to do that. That's such a good point, 555 00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:54,479 Speaker 1: And I feel like we've already seen how technology is 556 00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:57,400 Speaker 1: being misused if you don't put in safeguards for the 557 00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:00,680 Speaker 1: reality of how a lot of people will probably use it. Like, 558 00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:04,000 Speaker 1: you know, we have deep fake technology. I've seen very 559 00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:09,120 Speaker 1: interesting useful interpretations of deep Deep fakes are artists who 560 00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:12,280 Speaker 1: like make deep fakes of Mark Zuckerberg taking accountability for 561 00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:14,640 Speaker 1: the harmony it's caused, for instance, But we already know 562 00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:17,520 Speaker 1: that how deep fake technology is being used is to 563 00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:21,600 Speaker 1: harass and abuse, marginalize people, women, people, women of color. 564 00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:25,480 Speaker 1: And so this idea that we can just quickly put 565 00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:28,920 Speaker 1: out new technology that is going to completely change and 566 00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:33,280 Speaker 1: alter how our society understands how it works, and not 567 00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:35,720 Speaker 1: put in those safeguards or even really stop to think 568 00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:39,960 Speaker 1: about the president they said, I think is really a problem. Yes, 569 00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:44,880 Speaker 1: absolutely so, I have to ask, you know, in reading 570 00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:47,320 Speaker 1: your piece, it's obvious that this piece is sort of 571 00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:50,520 Speaker 1: like a love letter to Whitney Houston and her legacy. 572 00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:51,400 Speaker 2: What is her? 573 00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:54,440 Speaker 1: Do you have a favorite Whitney Houston song or moment 574 00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:57,200 Speaker 1: that that you want to share with us? 575 00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:00,640 Speaker 2: Hmm, that might be a hard question. There so many 576 00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:03,120 Speaker 2: to pick from there really are. 577 00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:07,360 Speaker 1: I mean, I feel like I want to dance with somebody, 578 00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:11,360 Speaker 1: and I know she was really hurt my heart to 579 00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:15,400 Speaker 1: hear how she was criticized for this song by you know, 580 00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:20,360 Speaker 1: like Al Sharpton and you know, other prominent black people 581 00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:25,000 Speaker 1: back when this was released. But I remember my dad 582 00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:29,560 Speaker 1: had a VHS of just like Whitney Houston videos and 583 00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:33,840 Speaker 1: stuff like that. And I remember as a kid watching 584 00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:38,280 Speaker 1: that video and she was so happy and you know, 585 00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:41,160 Speaker 1: I in the hair, you know, like it was just 586 00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:43,200 Speaker 1: so beautiful, and I just thought she was the most 587 00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:46,840 Speaker 1: beautiful woman. And I was like, yes, how nice would 588 00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:48,720 Speaker 1: that be to dance with somebody who loves you? 589 00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:49,840 Speaker 2: Like how ideal? 590 00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:53,440 Speaker 1: Like I just I remember so vividly as a kid 591 00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:57,960 Speaker 1: being just like so enthralled by this video. And my 592 00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:01,440 Speaker 1: dad also had this ther original record you know where 593 00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:04,920 Speaker 1: she's got the I think her hair is pulled back, 594 00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:07,960 Speaker 1: but it looked like she had just like a low, 595 00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:12,799 Speaker 1: like shaved head, and I just like, yeah, all you 596 00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:15,880 Speaker 1: see is her stunning face, and I'm like, wow, this 597 00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:19,120 Speaker 1: is the most beautiful woman. I just I remember being 598 00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:21,879 Speaker 1: so touched by her music so early on in my life. 599 00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:24,360 Speaker 1: I mean, The Bodyguard was my favorite movie. I wanted 600 00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:28,239 Speaker 1: to be an actress because of The Bodyguard. Like, I mean, 601 00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:31,919 Speaker 1: there's just so much waiting to exhale. Is like, hands down, 602 00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:35,480 Speaker 1: the best soundtrack that has ever existed to a movie. 603 00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:38,920 Speaker 1: You know, She's just she was so gifted and she 604 00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:40,839 Speaker 1: was so talented. And then when I found out later 605 00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:43,640 Speaker 1: on that she has literally produced like all the teen 606 00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:46,840 Speaker 1: girl movies, like the Princess Diaries, and I mean just 607 00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:54,799 Speaker 1: she she did so much that shaped my childhood, including Cinderella. 608 00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:59,960 Speaker 1: I mean that, you know, we definitely that was appointment television. 609 00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:04,799 Speaker 1: We stopped everything as a family to watch Cinderella and 610 00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:07,560 Speaker 1: to watch Brandy, who I also loved so much, be 611 00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:11,360 Speaker 1: the first black Cinderella and to have Whitney Houston be 612 00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:14,680 Speaker 1: the godmother. I mean it just there are so many 613 00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:17,799 Speaker 1: things and so many of those songs as well. Like 614 00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:21,360 Speaker 1: I just I remember always having this kind of countercultural 615 00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:25,360 Speaker 1: mind as a kid and just these ideas, these feminist 616 00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:28,000 Speaker 1: ideas that I didn't know what the words were or 617 00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:30,840 Speaker 1: how to describe them, but like I just felt like 618 00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:34,799 Speaker 1: Whitney Houston in her music and definitely the music in Cinderella, 619 00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:38,240 Speaker 1: Like it was so much about, you know, just feeling 620 00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:43,640 Speaker 1: empowered as a woman and not taking the positions that 621 00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:47,880 Speaker 1: we are put in into society laying down, you know, 622 00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:52,879 Speaker 1: to to fight to be an individual and to use 623 00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:55,120 Speaker 1: your own voice. And so then to later find out 624 00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:57,520 Speaker 1: that there were so many ways that Whitney was not 625 00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:01,800 Speaker 1: allowed to do that, it's just very devastating, being very 626 00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:06,880 Speaker 1: hard to hear an experience, and you know, it definitely 627 00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:11,640 Speaker 1: gave me fuel to make sure that I and the 628 00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:15,319 Speaker 1: people around me as much as possible were given the 629 00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:17,719 Speaker 1: space to be who they are and to be celebrated 630 00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:21,440 Speaker 1: and supported for who they are, so that nothing like 631 00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:24,040 Speaker 1: this would ever happen. It's a tragedy that we lost 632 00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:27,120 Speaker 1: to Whitney Houston, and it was so unnecessary we did. 633 00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:29,759 Speaker 1: It didn't have to be this way. We could have 634 00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:33,880 Speaker 1: made a society that was not queer phobic, that was 635 00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:39,560 Speaker 1: not lesblophobic, that was not anti black, that was not misogynistic, 636 00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:44,759 Speaker 1: that would have allowed Whitney Houston to thrive. And we 637 00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:48,120 Speaker 1: you know, we all can play a role in creating 638 00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:50,640 Speaker 1: that world so that it doesn't happen to another person. 639 00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:53,759 Speaker 2: That's so beautiful and so right. 640 00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:56,919 Speaker 1: I mean, Whitney taught me that nothing is worth living 641 00:36:56,960 --> 00:37:00,920 Speaker 1: your authentic life and living your authentic truth exactly. 642 00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:03,000 Speaker 2: That's beautiful, Brooke. 643 00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:05,719 Speaker 1: Is there anything that I have not asked or have 644 00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:07,120 Speaker 1: not brought up that you want to make sure it 645 00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:12,840 Speaker 1: gets included? I think that was pretty much it. I 646 00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:16,719 Speaker 1: got in my dig about Mark Zuckerberg and justin why 647 00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:20,239 Speaker 1: people accomplished like every chance I can to just be like, 648 00:37:20,719 --> 00:37:23,359 Speaker 1: fuck justin Timberlake, Like I just want to say that 649 00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:26,600 Speaker 1: Zuckerberg can go to hell, Like that's it. I think 650 00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:28,080 Speaker 1: that's I think we're good. 651 00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:28,960 Speaker 2: I do love that. 652 00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:31,480 Speaker 1: Like as a culture, we all kind of collectively are like, 653 00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:35,000 Speaker 1: you know what, fuck fuck justin Timberlake. Everyone I like 654 00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:38,279 Speaker 1: him forever, Like you can't come back from that, like 655 00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:41,200 Speaker 1: it's not pay reparations to Janet or like just be 656 00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:48,279 Speaker 1: quiet forever. Got a story about an interesting thing in tech, 657 00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:50,239 Speaker 1: or just want to say hi? You can read just 658 00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:52,680 Speaker 1: a Hello at tengodi dot com. You can also find 659 00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:55,520 Speaker 1: transcripts for today's episode at tengody dot com. There Are 660 00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:57,239 Speaker 1: No Girls on the Internet was created by me for 661 00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:00,360 Speaker 1: Ja Toad. It's a production of iHeartRadio and an Unbossed creative. 662 00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:03,759 Speaker 1: Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer. Tarry Harrison is our 663 00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:07,280 Speaker 1: producer and sound engineer. Michael Almato is our contributing producer. 664 00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:10,239 Speaker 1: I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If you want to help 665 00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:13,279 Speaker 1: us grow, rate and review us on Apple podcasts. For 666 00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:16,760 Speaker 1: more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check out the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 667 00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:28,600 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts.