WEBVTT - Malcolm Goes to Debate School 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:22.716 Pushkin ladies and gentlemen, Welcome to the month debates. 0:00:27.396 --> 0:00:30.436 Not long ago, a few thousand people gathered up Roy 0:00:30.476 --> 0:00:34.316 Thompson Hall in Toronto, the fanciest performance space in the city, 0:00:34.916 --> 0:00:41.796 to hear a debate parliamentary style, opening statements, rebuttals, closing arguments. 0:00:42.596 --> 0:00:45.236 So I want all of us to think tonight carefully 0:00:45.636 --> 0:00:51.796 on our debate motion. Be it resolved. Do not trust 0:00:52.156 --> 0:00:53.716 the mainstream media. 0:00:54.716 --> 0:00:58.316 Speaking for the resolution, We're two prominent journalists. 0:00:58.996 --> 0:01:01.076 My name is Matt Tayibi, had been a reporter for 0:01:01.116 --> 0:01:04.556 thirty years, and I argue for the resolution you should 0:01:04.596 --> 0:01:05.996 not trust mainstream media. 0:01:06.876 --> 0:01:09.596 Tayibe was one of the people Elon Musk turned to 0:01:09.876 --> 0:01:12.556 when he took over Twitter to publish on Twitter the 0:01:12.636 --> 0:01:15.596 so called Twitter Files, with the intent of showing that 0:01:15.716 --> 0:01:19.916 liberals were meddling with free speech. Matt Tayib has a 0:01:19.956 --> 0:01:21.356 massive online following. 0:01:22.196 --> 0:01:24.556 I grew up in the press. My father was a reporter, 0:01:24.876 --> 0:01:29.276 my stepmother was a reporter, my godparents are reporters. Basically 0:01:29.316 --> 0:01:31.836 every adult I knew growing up was a reporter. So 0:01:32.076 --> 0:01:36.596 I actually loved the news business, but I mourned for it. 0:01:36.596 --> 0:01:40.156 It's destroyed itself by getting away from its basic function, 0:01:40.796 --> 0:01:42.396 which is just to tell us what's happening. 0:01:45.676 --> 0:01:51.836 Taybe's partner was the prominent English journalist Douglas Murray, Oxford educated, 0:01:52.196 --> 0:01:56.156 beautiful suit, a certain international man of mystery. 0:01:56.356 --> 0:01:59.476 Thanks not fair, It's a great pleasure to be here 0:01:59.476 --> 0:02:01.276 with about Yad said, I've come a rather long way 0:02:01.316 --> 0:02:03.196 from the front lines of the Ukraine conflict because I 0:02:03.276 --> 0:02:05.156 like to see these things with my own eyes for 0:02:05.276 --> 0:02:07.916 myself and to come to my own conclusions. I came 0:02:07.916 --> 0:02:10.436 out through Moldova the other day, through London, then got 0:02:10.436 --> 0:02:12.156 to Toronto and friend of mine said, why are you 0:02:12.196 --> 0:02:15.036 going to Toronto? I said, an invitation to Toronto in 0:02:15.116 --> 0:02:19.396 late November. Who on Earth says no to that? Only 0:02:19.396 --> 0:02:20.796 a madman would say. 0:02:20.596 --> 0:02:20.916 No to that. 0:02:24.836 --> 0:02:28.116 On the other side, defending the mainstream media was the 0:02:28.156 --> 0:02:32.876 New York Times columnist Michelle Goldberg, a monk debate veteran 0:02:33.436 --> 0:02:36.036 one of America's strongest liberal voices. 0:02:37.156 --> 0:02:40.756 Think about the big stories of the last five years 0:02:40.836 --> 0:02:44.796 or so, you know, from the Trump presidency to COVID 0:02:45.476 --> 0:02:48.756 to the war in Ukraine. Now, if you had just 0:02:49.076 --> 0:02:53.436 followed the CBC, the New York Times, the Washington Post, 0:02:53.516 --> 0:02:58.116 the BBC, they all got some things wrong, but in 0:02:58.236 --> 0:03:01.596 terms of the big stories, if you paid attention to 0:03:01.636 --> 0:03:06.316 the mainstream media, you were likely to be much safer 0:03:06.716 --> 0:03:10.276 and much closer to the truth then if you followed 0:03:10.396 --> 0:03:12.796 the kind of contrarians, if you followed the people who 0:03:12.836 --> 0:03:16.356 were saying, don't trust the mainstream media, trust these alternative 0:03:16.396 --> 0:03:17.396 sources of information. 0:03:18.396 --> 0:03:22.396 Tayibe Murray Goldberg, and then. 0:03:22.636 --> 0:03:26.996 Michelle's debating partner is a Canadian journalist. Yes, I will 0:03:26.996 --> 0:03:30.436 claim him as one of our own, a veteran New 0:03:30.556 --> 0:03:36.276 Yorker staff writer, a podcasting sensation who doesn't love revisionist history, 0:03:36.996 --> 0:03:42.676 and an internationally acclaimed author. Ladies and gentlemen, Malcolm Gladwell. 0:03:45.156 --> 0:03:48.876 You're listening to Revisionist History, my podcast about things overlooked 0:03:48.876 --> 0:03:53.236 and misunderstood. This episode is about what happened when Michelle 0:03:53.316 --> 0:03:56.676 Goldberg and I attempted to defend the honor of the 0:03:56.676 --> 0:04:06.516 mainstream media against its many enemies. I entered this battle 0:04:06.836 --> 0:04:09.996 to cheers from my hometown Craft. I grew up not 0:04:10.116 --> 0:04:12.676 far away, and I went to college in Toronto about 0:04:12.716 --> 0:04:16.236 a mile from the theater. This whole evening was putting 0:04:16.276 --> 0:04:19.036 a pep in my step. I've met with Michelle that 0:04:19.116 --> 0:04:21.596 morning at breakfast at our hotel, I said to her, 0:04:21.836 --> 0:04:24.076 We're going to win this thing. How could we not? 0:04:24.596 --> 0:04:27.796 This is Canada. If anyone is going to trust the 0:04:27.796 --> 0:04:32.676 mainstream media, it's Canadians. I wrote out my opening comments 0:04:32.756 --> 0:04:35.596 on the plane, had a lovely visit with my mom, 0:04:35.876 --> 0:04:39.396 put on my snappiest suit jacket, then strode out on 0:04:39.476 --> 0:04:42.756 stage and warmly shook the moderator's. 0:04:42.196 --> 0:04:45.396 Hand because we want to know, are you open to 0:04:45.556 --> 0:04:48.956 changing your mind over the course of what you're going 0:04:48.996 --> 0:04:51.796 to hear in the next ninety minutes. Can you be 0:04:51.876 --> 0:04:55.036 persuaded to move from the pro camp into the con 0:04:55.076 --> 0:04:57.156 camp or vice versa. 0:04:57.356 --> 0:04:59.676 I should let you know before we get too far 0:04:59.716 --> 0:05:03.436 along that I am not someone who gets nervous. I 0:05:03.476 --> 0:05:06.076 don't get stage fright. I am the son of a 0:05:06.116 --> 0:05:10.196 man whose personal credo was nothing bad will ever happen. 0:05:11.316 --> 0:05:14.156 And that's how I felt on the evening of the 0:05:14.196 --> 0:05:17.876 month today. The room was packed, I felt the surge 0:05:17.876 --> 0:05:21.636 of love from my countryman, and Michelle was on fire. 0:05:22.236 --> 0:05:25.796 However, if you followed the mainstream media, you knew that 0:05:25.836 --> 0:05:29.436 COVID was airborne. You knew that it was more serious 0:05:29.516 --> 0:05:33.836 than the flu, and you knew that the vaccines were 0:05:33.956 --> 0:05:38.596 likely to protect you. The COVID contrarians, the contrarian media, 0:05:38.596 --> 0:05:41.156 the one who we're saying not to trust kind of 0:05:41.156 --> 0:05:44.756 mainstream sources of opinion. We're saying, this is just another flu. 0:05:44.916 --> 0:05:48.756 Deaths are going to be six thousand. The media doesn't 0:05:48.796 --> 0:05:50.716 want to tell you. I mean, Matt wrote this several times. 0:05:50.716 --> 0:05:53.196 The media doesn't want to tell you about Ivermectin. 0:05:53.676 --> 0:05:56.756 She had Tybee and Murray on their heels. 0:05:56.556 --> 0:05:59.396 In the run up to the invasion of Ukraine. Again, 0:05:59.436 --> 0:06:01.716 I think Matt said that, you know, the media is 0:06:01.756 --> 0:06:04.516 over hyping this, that people are kind of taking stenography 0:06:04.596 --> 0:06:07.836 from the Biden administration that Russia actually is probably not 0:06:07.956 --> 0:06:08.836 going to invade. 0:06:09.116 --> 0:06:10.916 When it was my turn to speak, I tried to 0:06:10.956 --> 0:06:14.476 build on what Michelle said. The mainstream media was right 0:06:14.516 --> 0:06:18.116 about things like COVID in Ukraine because it's a profession 0:06:18.596 --> 0:06:22.556 with standards and rules and a long tradition of searching 0:06:22.676 --> 0:06:27.276 for the truth. The non mainstream media is a set 0:06:27.316 --> 0:06:31.156 of institutions that are outside of that tradition, that have 0:06:31.236 --> 0:06:34.236 an open and not a closed platform. And you cannot 0:06:34.356 --> 0:06:38.516 have an open platform and simultaneously adhere to a strict 0:06:38.556 --> 0:06:42.196 set of professional norms. You cannot say anyone can become 0:06:42.236 --> 0:06:45.036 a doctor and then complain when the surgeon takes out 0:06:45.076 --> 0:06:50.156 your spleen and thinking that it's your call pattern right now, 0:06:50.156 --> 0:06:52.036 Why am I making such a big deal about this, 0:06:52.316 --> 0:06:58.196 Because trust is not about content. Trust is about process. 0:06:58.716 --> 0:07:01.556 I got my journalistic training at the Washington Post, one 0:07:01.556 --> 0:07:04.276 of the great newspapers in the world. I learned about 0:07:04.276 --> 0:07:07.236 that process, about what it means to respect the truth 0:07:07.636 --> 0:07:11.316 from some of the greatest journalists of my generation. This 0:07:12.116 --> 0:07:15.916 was from the heart. We're nailing this, I thought to myself. 0:07:17.316 --> 0:07:17.876 And then. 0:07:19.836 --> 0:07:22.636 I can't sit here and listen to Malcolm Gladwell talking 0:07:22.636 --> 0:07:26.116 about fact checking and the importance of it. Not to 0:07:26.156 --> 0:07:30.836 get too mean, Malcolm. I read your book David and Goliath. 0:07:31.756 --> 0:07:35.316 The chapter on Northern Ireland is more filled with inaccuracies 0:07:35.396 --> 0:07:38.196 than any other chapter in a non fiction book I 0:07:38.196 --> 0:07:44.636 have read. It is having written a not very well 0:07:44.676 --> 0:07:49.356 selling but widely acclaimed book on Northern Ireland myself. My 0:07:49.356 --> 0:07:51.636 book on Northern Ireland didn't sell anywhere near as much 0:07:51.636 --> 0:07:55.196 as yours did, Malcolm, but mine was filled with facts. 0:07:57.316 --> 0:08:00.476 Oh God, all of us have had the dream of 0:08:00.556 --> 0:08:03.396 we're walking down our high school corridor and we realize 0:08:03.556 --> 0:08:07.916 suddenly we're not wearing any pants. That was me in 0:08:07.916 --> 0:08:11.396 that moment, the stage of Roy Thompson Hall, in front 0:08:11.436 --> 0:08:17.076 of a few thousand people, suddenly realizing this is not 0:08:17.196 --> 0:08:17.716 going well. 0:08:19.876 --> 0:08:24.476 It's so strange hearing you debate, Malcolm, because you listen 0:08:24.556 --> 0:08:29.516 to nothing that your opponents say. It's quite extraordinary. I've 0:08:29.516 --> 0:08:33.436 met it before, but never quite so badly as it 0:08:33.436 --> 0:08:37.356 occurs in you. You keep saying things that neither of 0:08:37.436 --> 0:08:40.236 us have said, and then you try to pathologize what 0:08:40.276 --> 0:08:43.356 we say. Now, Malcolm, why don't you listen to what 0:08:43.436 --> 0:08:46.436 comes out of our mouths and try to learn something 0:08:46.436 --> 0:08:49.076 from it? As I am with you this evening, But 0:08:49.316 --> 0:08:53.316 at the moment, all I get is you dismissing every 0:08:53.396 --> 0:08:56.996 single story we come up with, every egregious failure of 0:08:57.036 --> 0:08:58.036 the mainstream media. 0:09:00.636 --> 0:09:03.956 A friend of mine afterwards texted me to say, why 0:09:03.956 --> 0:09:06.356 didn't you tell me you were up against Douglas Murray. 0:09:06.876 --> 0:09:09.676 I would have warned you to stay home. A simple 0:09:09.756 --> 0:09:12.316 YouTube search would have shown me that he's a regular 0:09:12.316 --> 0:09:16.316 at the fabled Oxford Debating Union, a master of the 0:09:16.356 --> 0:09:17.796 cut and thrust. 0:09:18.556 --> 0:09:21.636 But I beg you to actually consider the fact that 0:09:21.676 --> 0:09:25.396 what we are describing is, even if you think, not 0:09:25.636 --> 0:09:28.636 as accurate as you would like, an expression of a 0:09:28.716 --> 0:09:34.196 problem that is going on in our societies. Functioning. Functioning 0:09:34.556 --> 0:09:39.356 liberal democracies need to have trust in their media, and 0:09:39.596 --> 0:09:41.436 the best that your site has been able to come 0:09:41.516 --> 0:09:44.036 up with so far tonight is to say, we get 0:09:44.076 --> 0:09:46.716 things wrong quite often, but you should trust us. 0:09:53.116 --> 0:09:56.076 You can't see it listening as you are. But Murray 0:09:56.116 --> 0:09:57.836 had the room in the palm of his hand. 0:09:58.196 --> 0:10:02.476 Take the hunter Biden's story. Oh here we okay, I'm sorry. 0:10:03.916 --> 0:10:05.876 Of course you don't want to no end to that 0:10:05.956 --> 0:10:09.836 kind of of course you don't want to hear it, Malcolm. 0:10:09.916 --> 0:10:13.636 Of course you wouldn't because it goes against your ideological presumptions. 0:10:18.476 --> 0:10:21.156 In the Monk debate, the audience votes on the resolution 0:10:21.356 --> 0:10:24.836 once before the debate and then again after the debate 0:10:24.876 --> 0:10:27.036 is over, and the winner is the side that causes 0:10:27.076 --> 0:10:31.476 the most people to change their minds. Remember the resolution 0:10:31.596 --> 0:10:35.636 that night was be it resolved, do not trust the 0:10:35.676 --> 0:10:36.516 mainstream media. 0:10:37.076 --> 0:10:42.116 Let's just quickly review where we started out tonight's debate. 0:10:42.836 --> 0:10:45.596 It was pretty much a split opinion. If I believe 0:10:45.636 --> 0:10:49.676 it was forty eight in favor, fifty two opposed. We 0:10:49.756 --> 0:10:53.716 then asked you how many could change your mind. So 0:10:53.796 --> 0:10:57.076 let's see what happened of the last ninety minutes. Did 0:10:57.476 --> 0:11:02.396 either team of these debaters swing opinion one way or another? 0:11:02.796 --> 0:11:07.956 There we go sixty seven per set in favor of 0:11:07.996 --> 0:11:11.836 the motion, thirty three percent of post. 0:11:12.876 --> 0:11:16.876 It was the biggest swing in opinion in the history 0:11:17.236 --> 0:11:26.796 of the Monk debates. We got cream. I went back 0:11:26.836 --> 0:11:30.196 to my hotel room, lay down on my bed, stared 0:11:30.236 --> 0:11:33.676 at the ceiling, and made the mistake of checking social media. 0:11:34.876 --> 0:11:38.316 Malcolm gave the perfect talk to show exactly why nobody 0:11:38.316 --> 0:11:42.116 trusts his media. Malcolm Gladwell has failed as an intellectual 0:11:42.156 --> 0:11:42.836 in this debate. 0:11:43.316 --> 0:11:46.476 Wow, you got owned and you were so smug and 0:11:46.596 --> 0:11:49.076 arrogant as you were getting known be better. 0:11:49.476 --> 0:11:50.796 You've lost my respect. 0:11:51.756 --> 0:11:55.236 This was a funeral for Malcolm Gladwell's reputation. 0:11:55.916 --> 0:11:58.036 Gladwell's not half as smart as I thought. 0:11:58.036 --> 0:11:59.436 He was just washed. 0:11:59.516 --> 0:12:03.396 Malk get his butt kicked by Doug and really enjoyed it. 0:12:04.916 --> 0:12:23.836 I had hit rock bottom. What do you do after 0:12:23.876 --> 0:12:27.396 you've been humiliated? You call your mother, of course. 0:12:31.396 --> 0:12:38.596 Tex While Meg style in English It says, when things 0:12:38.676 --> 0:12:43.516 go wrong, convert them to something that is desirable. 0:12:44.676 --> 0:12:47.036 And the first thing my mother did when I asked 0:12:47.036 --> 0:12:51.036 for maternal reassurance was remind me of an expression from 0:12:51.036 --> 0:12:55.796 her native Jamaica. This is my mom's first solo appearance 0:12:55.796 --> 0:12:58.676 on Revisionist History. By the way, what kind of son 0:12:58.796 --> 0:13:02.876 makes his mother wait eight years for a cameo? I 0:13:02.916 --> 0:13:06.556 want to go back over the pronunciation of the of 0:13:06.596 --> 0:13:09.956 the words in dialect. Pronounce it and then spell them 0:13:09.956 --> 0:13:13.516 out for me, just so I can see in my mind. Okay, 0:13:13.556 --> 0:13:14.756 the expression. 0:13:16.076 --> 0:13:22.236 Tech spoil t e K. It's it's a it's a 0:13:22.316 --> 0:13:29.516 version of take take what is spoiled because we do 0:13:29.596 --> 0:13:34.436 not use the rounded vowels in Jamaica. They're all broad 0:13:34.756 --> 0:13:40.276 a vowels. We instead of saying spoil, we say spoil. Yeah, 0:13:41.636 --> 0:13:47.876 but they're all English words. Take, spoil, make style. Those 0:13:47.916 --> 0:13:51.596 are four English words, but they're just pronounced differently. 0:13:52.516 --> 0:13:54.556 It's beautifully economical. 0:13:54.676 --> 0:13:59.556 Exactly that. It's the economy and also the humor which 0:13:59.596 --> 0:14:01.636 is which, which is also striking. 0:14:01.956 --> 0:14:04.836 Put it in a sentence in your best Jamaican dialect. 0:14:06.156 --> 0:14:09.116 We don't use it in a sentence. We use it 0:14:09.316 --> 0:14:14.396 as a commentary on a situation. Here is someone walking 0:14:14.436 --> 0:14:19.156 along in a dress that does not fit with what 0:14:19.436 --> 0:14:28.276 is commonly being used, and she says, well, midare you 0:14:28.516 --> 0:14:32.436 watch and see everybody will be wearing a dress like 0:14:32.556 --> 0:14:36.196 this soon. Maya techspoile make style. 0:14:39.396 --> 0:14:43.476 This was her moral instruction to me in typically elliptical 0:14:43.596 --> 0:14:48.276 choice glabor fashion, Take lemons and make lemonade, take spoil 0:14:48.876 --> 0:14:55.596 and make style. So what did I do? I went 0:14:55.636 --> 0:14:57.876 straight to the top. I got in touch with the 0:14:57.916 --> 0:15:01.396 local legend of New York debating K M. D. Colandria 0:15:01.556 --> 0:15:06.156 aka deca, founder of the Brooklyn Debate League. I told 0:15:06.196 --> 0:15:09.596 Dica about the very public undressing Sid effered on the 0:15:09.596 --> 0:15:13.316 stage of Roy Thompson Hall, and Dico said, you need 0:15:13.356 --> 0:15:16.676 to come to Brooklyn, And so I did, all the 0:15:16.716 --> 0:15:19.156 way to the Crown Heights neighborhood in what used to 0:15:19.196 --> 0:15:23.996 be the old Hebrew Hospital, Narrow Hallway, cats, everyone eating 0:15:24.036 --> 0:15:27.836 big bulls of pasta, Franklin Avenue shuttle lumbering along in 0:15:27.876 --> 0:15:28.436 the background. 0:15:30.436 --> 0:15:33.756 What's all, George, Oh you can't do that? 0:15:33.836 --> 0:15:37.156 During the podcast, really, Dico had put together a dream 0:15:37.196 --> 0:15:40.996 team of three to analyze my performance. Sissan Kuss Rove, 0:15:41.716 --> 0:15:48.476 Jonathan Conyers and Dico himself. Jonathan is built like a linebacker, 0:15:48.916 --> 0:15:52.556 Big James hardened Beard works as a respiratory therapist when 0:15:52.556 --> 0:15:59.276 he's not writing books and teaching debate. Cissan is thirty something, extroverted, charismatic. 0:15:59.716 --> 0:16:02.036 In the John Grisham version of his life, he would 0:16:02.036 --> 0:16:04.316 be a trial lawyer who would win a ten billion 0:16:04.356 --> 0:16:09.036 dollar verdict from the jury in Mississippi. Dico is reserved, 0:16:09.396 --> 0:16:13.076 studied philosophy at Yale, Irish and Italian and background, and 0:16:13.236 --> 0:16:16.876 somewhere along the line converted to Judaism and went to 0:16:16.956 --> 0:16:21.316 rabbinical school. I sat down at Deco's kitchen table. Each 0:16:21.356 --> 0:16:25.116 of the three had pages of densely written notes in 0:16:25.156 --> 0:16:30.796 front of them they had prepared. Jonathan was to my left. 0:16:31.276 --> 0:16:34.996 I started with him, Jonathan, can you speak to the 0:16:35.396 --> 0:16:39.556 Was the tone different from the debates you're used to 0:16:39.716 --> 0:16:40.636 with students? 0:16:41.356 --> 0:16:43.876 So that's a very good question. So I'll answer this 0:16:43.916 --> 0:16:47.836 in two ways. The tone that you had throughout the 0:16:47.876 --> 0:16:50.516 debate was very similar to some of the students that 0:16:50.596 --> 0:16:52.836 I do work with, and that's what I teached them. 0:16:55.356 --> 0:16:56.956 I have the thickest kid in the world. No, I 0:16:56.956 --> 0:17:00.076 want to just pile on Oh they piled on. 0:17:00.876 --> 0:17:04.236 So San was next, And I think what I want 0:17:04.276 --> 0:17:08.156 to explore is the sort of disconnect between the things 0:17:08.156 --> 0:17:11.676 that you thought should have mattered to the audience and 0:17:11.796 --> 0:17:14.116 what actually turned out to matter. 0:17:13.916 --> 0:17:14.636 To the audience. 0:17:14.796 --> 0:17:17.276 Bendica, what was your strategy? 0:17:17.316 --> 0:17:18.476 Why do you think you won? 0:17:18.636 --> 0:17:20.596 Like if you talked us through, like your offense on 0:17:20.636 --> 0:17:22.876 that debate, like why do you think you want. 0:17:24.156 --> 0:17:28.876 I thought that that any it was to be honest, 0:17:29.436 --> 0:17:32.476 it began with a certain degree of arrogance that I 0:17:32.516 --> 0:17:36.476 thought I just couldn't imagine how anyone could legitimately argue 0:17:36.516 --> 0:17:39.996 that the mainstream media was worse than the at tournative. 0:17:40.796 --> 0:17:44.356 Oh boy, let's start there. If I assume that most 0:17:44.356 --> 0:17:47.196 people were on my side before I began, then why 0:17:47.236 --> 0:17:51.516 was I even debating. Debating is persuasion. It's based on 0:17:51.596 --> 0:17:54.276 the idea that there are people listening who don't agree 0:17:54.316 --> 0:17:57.156 with you, and your job is to change their mind. 0:17:57.716 --> 0:18:01.596 It's not a conversation. It's not you say what you think, 0:18:01.716 --> 0:18:05.516 I say what I think. It's a contest adjudicated by 0:18:05.516 --> 0:18:07.796 a third party, and the winner is a person who 0:18:07.876 --> 0:18:10.756 does the best job of clients inside the head of 0:18:10.796 --> 0:18:11.636 that third party. 0:18:12.236 --> 0:18:17.196 Because Ultimately, the wind condition of debate is the judge 0:18:17.196 --> 0:18:18.076 circle in your name. 0:18:18.676 --> 0:18:20.356 Sissan was the first to respond. 0:18:21.116 --> 0:18:24.156 Ultimately, it's figuring out what's important to that person and 0:18:24.236 --> 0:18:27.476 how do I show them that this thing that I'm 0:18:27.516 --> 0:18:32.916 advocating for functions under a value system that they hold. 0:18:33.996 --> 0:18:37.476 I think that's what's important about debate, and it's. 0:18:37.316 --> 0:18:42.436 An empathetic it's an intellectual exercise in empathy. Empathy. I 0:18:42.636 --> 0:18:45.596 just failed the first test of debating. I should have 0:18:45.676 --> 0:18:48.676 put myself inside the heads of those in the audience 0:18:48.716 --> 0:18:51.676 who didn't trust the mainstream media and then try and 0:18:51.676 --> 0:18:56.116 bring them around. Second related point. If you watch the 0:18:56.156 --> 0:18:59.156 whole ninety minute debate on YouTube, which for the love 0:18:59.196 --> 0:19:01.636 of God I dearly hope you do not, you will 0:19:01.636 --> 0:19:04.436 notice that mister Murray and I did not get along. 0:19:05.396 --> 0:19:08.316 At a few points. I called him Doug, to which 0:19:08.476 --> 0:19:11.436 he took great aense and called me Malk. 0:19:12.436 --> 0:19:21.116 Well, Malk, I'm going to try to take this more 0:19:21.116 --> 0:19:25.716 seriously than you did in your endless creation of straw men, 0:19:25.876 --> 0:19:27.276 which just is ceaseless. 0:19:27.316 --> 0:19:30.796 This evening, after the debate was over, Murray tweeted and 0:19:30.916 --> 0:19:35.436 retweeted word of his victory fourteen times. He's that kind 0:19:35.436 --> 0:19:38.636 of guy. But my advisors at the Brooklyn Debate League 0:19:38.916 --> 0:19:42.796 were not happy about my antipathy towards mister Murray. If 0:19:42.836 --> 0:19:46.556 reading the mind of the judge requires empathy, then how 0:19:46.676 --> 0:19:50.116 is pursuing some personal vendetta going to help matters? How 0:19:50.116 --> 0:19:52.876 do you engage in the delicate art of persuasion if 0:19:52.916 --> 0:19:56.876 you're getting all emotional. I tried to explain, I didn't 0:19:56.916 --> 0:20:00.076 know Douglas Murray much at all, so I did a 0:20:00.116 --> 0:20:03.316 little research into Douglas Murray in terms of the Douglas 0:20:03.436 --> 0:20:07.316 Murray without meaning. I'm not intending to demean him, but 0:20:07.716 --> 0:20:12.316 he is someone. He is one of those english people, 0:20:12.356 --> 0:20:16.356 white english people who objects to the number of non 0:20:16.396 --> 0:20:18.876 white people who have moved to England in the last 0:20:19.076 --> 0:20:22.716 fifty years. I'm actually not exaggerating here. Let me read 0:20:22.756 --> 0:20:25.996 too from a speech Murray once gave. It is late 0:20:26.036 --> 0:20:29.076 in the day, but Europe still has time to turn 0:20:29.116 --> 0:20:32.796 around the demographic time bomb, which will soon see a 0:20:32.836 --> 0:20:37.676 number of our largest cities fall to Muslim majorities. It 0:20:37.756 --> 0:20:42.916 has to All immigration into Europe from Muslim countries must 0:20:43.076 --> 0:20:46.676 stop in the case of a further genocide such as 0:20:46.676 --> 0:20:49.316 that in the Balkans, sanctuary would be given on a 0:20:49.356 --> 0:20:55.156 strictly temporary basis. This should also be enacted retrospectively. Those 0:20:55.196 --> 0:20:58.676 who are currently in Europe having fled tyrannies should be 0:20:58.756 --> 0:21:02.156 persuaded back to the countries which they fled from once 0:21:02.196 --> 0:21:04.676 the tyrannies that were the cause of their flight have 0:21:04.796 --> 0:21:08.716 been removed. That last sentence from Murray is what throws me. 0:21:09.316 --> 0:21:14.436 Immigrants from certain places should be persuaded back to the 0:21:14.476 --> 0:21:17.076 countries from which they fled. Like there's the whole thing 0:21:17.756 --> 0:21:20.756 that he does with on Andrew Sullivan's podcast where he 0:21:20.796 --> 0:21:24.436 talks about his dismay that many there are many cities 0:21:24.436 --> 0:21:27.316 in England now where whites are in the minority. Now. 0:21:27.356 --> 0:21:29.556 My mother happens to be one of those people who 0:21:29.556 --> 0:21:31.956 was a black woman who emigrated to England in nineteen 0:21:33.516 --> 0:21:37.156 sixty three or whatever, sixty two. So she's talking in 0:21:37.156 --> 0:21:41.796 the fifties, he's talking about So he's talking about my mother, right, 0:21:41.876 --> 0:21:45.156 So this is like it was it's street for me. 0:21:45.236 --> 0:21:48.716 It's like that dude is that dude is one of 0:21:48.836 --> 0:21:50.516 you know, people used to shout the. 0:21:50.516 --> 0:21:51.956 End word to my mom when she walked down the 0:21:51.956 --> 0:21:55.436 street in England in nineteen fifty whatever, and I'm in 0:21:55.436 --> 0:21:58.116 my mind, I'm imagining he's one of those people, right, 0:21:58.636 --> 0:22:01.036 So it's like that's what was happening when I was 0:22:01.076 --> 0:22:03.996 getting riled up. I was like, I walked in thinking 0:22:04.596 --> 0:22:08.196 he's a piece of shit. That's I realized now, you 0:22:08.236 --> 0:22:11.796 can't do that. If you do that, you've lost before 0:22:11.796 --> 0:22:14.996 you've even started. This is why in high school debate 0:22:15.236 --> 0:22:18.556 you have to prepare both sides beforehand and you find 0:22:18.596 --> 0:22:21.476 out whether you are for or against the resolution on 0:22:21.516 --> 0:22:23.996 the day of the debate. They don't want you to 0:22:24.036 --> 0:22:24.676 be yourself. 0:22:24.996 --> 0:22:29.276 And again, like you know, Dicoka attested this more than anybody. 0:22:29.356 --> 0:22:33.236 Dico has had students who parents have just been deported 0:22:33.316 --> 0:22:34.756 or on the verge of being deported and didn't have 0:22:34.796 --> 0:22:38.036 to go and speak about open borders and immigration and 0:22:38.076 --> 0:22:39.796 don't know which side of the fence they have to 0:22:39.836 --> 0:22:43.396 debate on. That is tough for fourteen fifteen year olds too. 0:22:43.436 --> 0:22:44.876 After they give a speech, I have to go cry 0:22:44.916 --> 0:22:46.636 because they missed their dad or mom and they don't 0:22:46.676 --> 0:22:48.956 know if ice is coming or I can't do this. 0:22:49.036 --> 0:22:50.836 I can't do that. When I get it, I have 0:22:50.956 --> 0:22:54.596 been there there were times where I felt racism occurring, 0:22:54.676 --> 0:22:57.196 or people told me you can't use your personal story. 0:22:57.436 --> 0:23:00.396 That's not fear. This rich kid don't understand what it's 0:23:00.436 --> 0:23:02.356 like to be poor, so don't talk about that. So 0:23:02.476 --> 0:23:04.556 it happens. We have to come in and understand that 0:23:04.596 --> 0:23:07.196 debates are not personal and we have to talk about 0:23:07.236 --> 0:23:09.556 these topics because if we can't have dialogue, if we 0:23:09.596 --> 0:23:14.436 can't have respect in all this loss. So I'm going 0:23:14.516 --> 0:23:16.396 to challenge you, Malcolm, to say, if they can control 0:23:16.436 --> 0:23:18.596 the opposure and if they can understand that we can 0:23:18.636 --> 0:23:20.556 have real conversations, so can you. 0:23:23.636 --> 0:23:26.596 Our culture tells us to be authentic and put our 0:23:26.716 --> 0:23:29.716 feelings first. But if you're trying to win a debate, 0:23:30.236 --> 0:23:33.716 your focus needs to be on your opponent's feelings, how 0:23:33.796 --> 0:23:38.596 their mind works. That's the number one. Don't be yourself. 0:23:39.156 --> 0:23:49.396 It's a dead end. Okay. Second, lesson, all of my 0:23:49.476 --> 0:23:52.956 advisors at the Brooklyn Debate League were baffled by a 0:23:52.996 --> 0:23:57.476 crucial moment early in the debate, this moment in particular. 0:23:58.156 --> 0:24:02.316 And nobody is saying that non mainstream media don't have frailties. 0:24:02.356 --> 0:24:03.276 Of course they do. 0:24:03.756 --> 0:24:06.236 The simple proposal in front of the audience tonight is 0:24:06.276 --> 0:24:09.756 whether or not you can trust the mainstream media. That 0:24:09.836 --> 0:24:11.476 is that you don't need anything else. You don't need 0:24:11.516 --> 0:24:15.156 any other information from else where. You can just turn 0:24:15.196 --> 0:24:17.036 on CBC in the evening and you know you've got 0:24:17.076 --> 0:24:19.156 your stuff. You can pick up the New York Times 0:24:19.156 --> 0:24:20.676 the Washington Posts in the morning and you know that 0:24:20.716 --> 0:24:23.756 there's no spin on the story. It's absolutely accurate reporting. 0:24:24.156 --> 0:24:28.796 The debate Connoisseuran Sasan loved this little move. What Murray 0:24:28.876 --> 0:24:30.996 was saying was that if you have even the slightest 0:24:31.076 --> 0:24:34.196 doubt about the perfection of the mainstream media, then you 0:24:34.276 --> 0:24:37.916 have to vote for his side, and no institution can 0:24:37.956 --> 0:24:41.876 meet that standard. It's like saying, unless all prescription drugs 0:24:41.916 --> 0:24:45.316 are guaranteed to act perfectly every time without side effects 0:24:45.356 --> 0:24:49.756 or complications, you can't trust prescription drugs. It's nuts. 0:24:52.556 --> 0:24:58.956 They took this topic don't trust mainstream media and made 0:24:59.116 --> 0:25:03.956 the central question of the debate be are there political 0:25:03.996 --> 0:25:08.276 biases in mainstream media? As long as that's the question 0:25:08.516 --> 0:25:12.076 that the audience is asking themselves to make the winner, 0:25:12.116 --> 0:25:12.516 you lose. 0:25:13.116 --> 0:25:16.156 What my side should have said was, wait a minute, 0:25:16.476 --> 0:25:19.476 the way you guys are defining the resolution makes no sense. 0:25:20.276 --> 0:25:22.436