1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:22,716 Speaker 1: Pushkin ladies and gentlemen, Welcome to the month debates. 2 00:00:27,396 --> 00:00:30,436 Speaker 2: Not long ago, a few thousand people gathered up Roy 3 00:00:30,476 --> 00:00:34,316 Speaker 2: Thompson Hall in Toronto, the fanciest performance space in the city, 4 00:00:34,916 --> 00:00:41,796 Speaker 2: to hear a debate parliamentary style, opening statements, rebuttals, closing arguments. 5 00:00:42,596 --> 00:00:45,236 Speaker 1: So I want all of us to think tonight carefully 6 00:00:45,636 --> 00:00:51,796 Speaker 1: on our debate motion. Be it resolved. Do not trust 7 00:00:52,156 --> 00:00:53,716 Speaker 1: the mainstream media. 8 00:00:54,716 --> 00:00:58,316 Speaker 2: Speaking for the resolution, We're two prominent journalists. 9 00:00:58,996 --> 00:01:01,076 Speaker 3: My name is Matt Tayibi, had been a reporter for 10 00:01:01,116 --> 00:01:04,556 Speaker 3: thirty years, and I argue for the resolution you should 11 00:01:04,596 --> 00:01:05,996 Speaker 3: not trust mainstream media. 12 00:01:06,876 --> 00:01:09,596 Speaker 2: Tayibe was one of the people Elon Musk turned to 13 00:01:09,876 --> 00:01:12,556 Speaker 2: when he took over Twitter to publish on Twitter the 14 00:01:12,636 --> 00:01:15,596 Speaker 2: so called Twitter Files, with the intent of showing that 15 00:01:15,716 --> 00:01:19,916 Speaker 2: liberals were meddling with free speech. Matt Tayib has a 16 00:01:19,956 --> 00:01:21,356 Speaker 2: massive online following. 17 00:01:22,196 --> 00:01:24,556 Speaker 3: I grew up in the press. My father was a reporter, 18 00:01:24,876 --> 00:01:29,276 Speaker 3: my stepmother was a reporter, my godparents are reporters. Basically 19 00:01:29,316 --> 00:01:31,836 Speaker 3: every adult I knew growing up was a reporter. So 20 00:01:32,076 --> 00:01:36,596 Speaker 3: I actually loved the news business, but I mourned for it. 21 00:01:36,596 --> 00:01:40,156 Speaker 3: It's destroyed itself by getting away from its basic function, 22 00:01:40,796 --> 00:01:42,396 Speaker 3: which is just to tell us what's happening. 23 00:01:45,676 --> 00:01:51,836 Speaker 2: Taybe's partner was the prominent English journalist Douglas Murray, Oxford educated, 24 00:01:52,196 --> 00:01:56,156 Speaker 2: beautiful suit, a certain international man of mystery. 25 00:01:56,356 --> 00:01:59,476 Speaker 4: Thanks not fair, It's a great pleasure to be here 26 00:01:59,476 --> 00:02:01,276 Speaker 4: with about Yad said, I've come a rather long way 27 00:02:01,316 --> 00:02:03,196 Speaker 4: from the front lines of the Ukraine conflict because I 28 00:02:03,276 --> 00:02:05,156 Speaker 4: like to see these things with my own eyes for 29 00:02:05,276 --> 00:02:07,916 Speaker 4: myself and to come to my own conclusions. I came 30 00:02:07,916 --> 00:02:10,436 Speaker 4: out through Moldova the other day, through London, then got 31 00:02:10,436 --> 00:02:12,156 Speaker 4: to Toronto and friend of mine said, why are you 32 00:02:12,196 --> 00:02:15,036 Speaker 4: going to Toronto? I said, an invitation to Toronto in 33 00:02:15,116 --> 00:02:19,396 Speaker 4: late November. Who on Earth says no to that? Only 34 00:02:19,396 --> 00:02:20,796 Speaker 4: a madman would say. 35 00:02:20,596 --> 00:02:20,916 Speaker 5: No to that. 36 00:02:24,836 --> 00:02:28,116 Speaker 2: On the other side, defending the mainstream media was the 37 00:02:28,156 --> 00:02:32,876 Speaker 2: New York Times columnist Michelle Goldberg, a monk debate veteran 38 00:02:33,436 --> 00:02:36,036 Speaker 2: one of America's strongest liberal voices. 39 00:02:37,156 --> 00:02:40,756 Speaker 6: Think about the big stories of the last five years 40 00:02:40,836 --> 00:02:44,796 Speaker 6: or so, you know, from the Trump presidency to COVID 41 00:02:45,476 --> 00:02:48,756 Speaker 6: to the war in Ukraine. Now, if you had just 42 00:02:49,076 --> 00:02:53,436 Speaker 6: followed the CBC, the New York Times, the Washington Post, 43 00:02:53,516 --> 00:02:58,116 Speaker 6: the BBC, they all got some things wrong, but in 44 00:02:58,236 --> 00:03:01,596 Speaker 6: terms of the big stories, if you paid attention to 45 00:03:01,636 --> 00:03:06,316 Speaker 6: the mainstream media, you were likely to be much safer 46 00:03:06,716 --> 00:03:10,276 Speaker 6: and much closer to the truth then if you followed 47 00:03:10,396 --> 00:03:12,796 Speaker 6: the kind of contrarians, if you followed the people who 48 00:03:12,836 --> 00:03:16,356 Speaker 6: were saying, don't trust the mainstream media, trust these alternative 49 00:03:16,396 --> 00:03:17,396 Speaker 6: sources of information. 50 00:03:18,396 --> 00:03:22,396 Speaker 2: Tayibe Murray Goldberg, and then. 51 00:03:22,636 --> 00:03:26,996 Speaker 1: Michelle's debating partner is a Canadian journalist. Yes, I will 52 00:03:26,996 --> 00:03:30,436 Speaker 1: claim him as one of our own, a veteran New 53 00:03:30,556 --> 00:03:36,276 Speaker 1: Yorker staff writer, a podcasting sensation who doesn't love revisionist history, 54 00:03:36,996 --> 00:03:42,676 Speaker 1: and an internationally acclaimed author. Ladies and gentlemen, Malcolm Gladwell. 55 00:03:45,156 --> 00:03:48,876 Speaker 2: You're listening to Revisionist History, my podcast about things overlooked 56 00:03:48,876 --> 00:03:53,236 Speaker 2: and misunderstood. This episode is about what happened when Michelle 57 00:03:53,316 --> 00:03:56,676 Speaker 2: Goldberg and I attempted to defend the honor of the 58 00:03:56,676 --> 00:04:06,516 Speaker 2: mainstream media against its many enemies. I entered this battle 59 00:04:06,836 --> 00:04:09,996 Speaker 2: to cheers from my hometown Craft. I grew up not 60 00:04:10,116 --> 00:04:12,676 Speaker 2: far away, and I went to college in Toronto about 61 00:04:12,716 --> 00:04:16,236 Speaker 2: a mile from the theater. This whole evening was putting 62 00:04:16,276 --> 00:04:19,036 Speaker 2: a pep in my step. I've met with Michelle that 63 00:04:19,116 --> 00:04:21,596 Speaker 2: morning at breakfast at our hotel, I said to her, 64 00:04:21,836 --> 00:04:24,076 Speaker 2: We're going to win this thing. How could we not? 65 00:04:24,596 --> 00:04:27,796 Speaker 2: This is Canada. If anyone is going to trust the 66 00:04:27,796 --> 00:04:32,676 Speaker 2: mainstream media, it's Canadians. I wrote out my opening comments 67 00:04:32,756 --> 00:04:35,596 Speaker 2: on the plane, had a lovely visit with my mom, 68 00:04:35,876 --> 00:04:39,396 Speaker 2: put on my snappiest suit jacket, then strode out on 69 00:04:39,476 --> 00:04:42,756 Speaker 2: stage and warmly shook the moderator's. 70 00:04:42,196 --> 00:04:45,396 Speaker 1: Hand because we want to know, are you open to 71 00:04:45,556 --> 00:04:48,956 Speaker 1: changing your mind over the course of what you're going 72 00:04:48,996 --> 00:04:51,796 Speaker 1: to hear in the next ninety minutes. Can you be 73 00:04:51,876 --> 00:04:55,036 Speaker 1: persuaded to move from the pro camp into the con 74 00:04:55,076 --> 00:04:57,156 Speaker 1: camp or vice versa. 75 00:04:57,356 --> 00:04:59,676 Speaker 2: I should let you know before we get too far 76 00:04:59,716 --> 00:05:03,436 Speaker 2: along that I am not someone who gets nervous. I 77 00:05:03,476 --> 00:05:06,076 Speaker 2: don't get stage fright. I am the son of a 78 00:05:06,116 --> 00:05:10,196 Speaker 2: man whose personal credo was nothing bad will ever happen. 79 00:05:11,316 --> 00:05:14,156 Speaker 2: And that's how I felt on the evening of the 80 00:05:14,196 --> 00:05:17,876 Speaker 2: month today. The room was packed, I felt the surge 81 00:05:17,876 --> 00:05:21,636 Speaker 2: of love from my countryman, and Michelle was on fire. 82 00:05:22,236 --> 00:05:25,796 Speaker 6: However, if you followed the mainstream media, you knew that 83 00:05:25,836 --> 00:05:29,436 Speaker 6: COVID was airborne. You knew that it was more serious 84 00:05:29,516 --> 00:05:33,836 Speaker 6: than the flu, and you knew that the vaccines were 85 00:05:33,956 --> 00:05:38,596 Speaker 6: likely to protect you. The COVID contrarians, the contrarian media, 86 00:05:38,596 --> 00:05:41,156 Speaker 6: the one who we're saying not to trust kind of 87 00:05:41,156 --> 00:05:44,756 Speaker 6: mainstream sources of opinion. We're saying, this is just another flu. 88 00:05:44,916 --> 00:05:48,756 Speaker 6: Deaths are going to be six thousand. The media doesn't 89 00:05:48,796 --> 00:05:50,716 Speaker 6: want to tell you. I mean, Matt wrote this several times. 90 00:05:50,716 --> 00:05:53,196 Speaker 6: The media doesn't want to tell you about Ivermectin. 91 00:05:53,676 --> 00:05:56,756 Speaker 2: She had Tybee and Murray on their heels. 92 00:05:56,556 --> 00:05:59,396 Speaker 6: In the run up to the invasion of Ukraine. Again, 93 00:05:59,436 --> 00:06:01,716 Speaker 6: I think Matt said that, you know, the media is 94 00:06:01,756 --> 00:06:04,516 Speaker 6: over hyping this, that people are kind of taking stenography 95 00:06:04,596 --> 00:06:07,836 Speaker 6: from the Biden administration that Russia actually is probably not 96 00:06:07,956 --> 00:06:08,836 Speaker 6: going to invade. 97 00:06:09,116 --> 00:06:10,916 Speaker 2: When it was my turn to speak, I tried to 98 00:06:10,956 --> 00:06:14,476 Speaker 2: build on what Michelle said. The mainstream media was right 99 00:06:14,516 --> 00:06:18,116 Speaker 2: about things like COVID in Ukraine because it's a profession 100 00:06:18,596 --> 00:06:22,556 Speaker 2: with standards and rules and a long tradition of searching 101 00:06:22,676 --> 00:06:27,276 Speaker 2: for the truth. The non mainstream media is a set 102 00:06:27,316 --> 00:06:31,156 Speaker 2: of institutions that are outside of that tradition, that have 103 00:06:31,236 --> 00:06:34,236 Speaker 2: an open and not a closed platform. And you cannot 104 00:06:34,356 --> 00:06:38,516 Speaker 2: have an open platform and simultaneously adhere to a strict 105 00:06:38,556 --> 00:06:42,196 Speaker 2: set of professional norms. You cannot say anyone can become 106 00:06:42,236 --> 00:06:45,036 Speaker 2: a doctor and then complain when the surgeon takes out 107 00:06:45,076 --> 00:06:50,156 Speaker 2: your spleen and thinking that it's your call pattern right now, 108 00:06:50,156 --> 00:06:52,036 Speaker 2: Why am I making such a big deal about this, 109 00:06:52,316 --> 00:06:58,196 Speaker 2: Because trust is not about content. Trust is about process. 110 00:06:58,716 --> 00:07:01,556 Speaker 2: I got my journalistic training at the Washington Post, one 111 00:07:01,556 --> 00:07:04,276 Speaker 2: of the great newspapers in the world. I learned about 112 00:07:04,276 --> 00:07:07,236 Speaker 2: that process, about what it means to respect the truth 113 00:07:07,636 --> 00:07:11,316 Speaker 2: from some of the greatest journalists of my generation. This 114 00:07:12,116 --> 00:07:15,916 Speaker 2: was from the heart. We're nailing this, I thought to myself. 115 00:07:17,316 --> 00:07:17,876 Speaker 2: And then. 116 00:07:19,836 --> 00:07:22,636 Speaker 4: I can't sit here and listen to Malcolm Gladwell talking 117 00:07:22,636 --> 00:07:26,116 Speaker 4: about fact checking and the importance of it. Not to 118 00:07:26,156 --> 00:07:30,836 Speaker 4: get too mean, Malcolm. I read your book David and Goliath. 119 00:07:31,756 --> 00:07:35,316 Speaker 4: The chapter on Northern Ireland is more filled with inaccuracies 120 00:07:35,396 --> 00:07:38,196 Speaker 4: than any other chapter in a non fiction book I 121 00:07:38,196 --> 00:07:44,636 Speaker 4: have read. It is having written a not very well 122 00:07:44,676 --> 00:07:49,356 Speaker 4: selling but widely acclaimed book on Northern Ireland myself. My 123 00:07:49,356 --> 00:07:51,636 Speaker 4: book on Northern Ireland didn't sell anywhere near as much 124 00:07:51,636 --> 00:07:55,196 Speaker 4: as yours did, Malcolm, but mine was filled with facts. 125 00:07:57,316 --> 00:08:00,476 Speaker 2: Oh God, all of us have had the dream of 126 00:08:00,556 --> 00:08:03,396 Speaker 2: we're walking down our high school corridor and we realize 127 00:08:03,556 --> 00:08:07,916 Speaker 2: suddenly we're not wearing any pants. That was me in 128 00:08:07,916 --> 00:08:11,396 Speaker 2: that moment, the stage of Roy Thompson Hall, in front 129 00:08:11,436 --> 00:08:17,076 Speaker 2: of a few thousand people, suddenly realizing this is not 130 00:08:17,196 --> 00:08:17,716 Speaker 2: going well. 131 00:08:19,876 --> 00:08:24,476 Speaker 4: It's so strange hearing you debate, Malcolm, because you listen 132 00:08:24,556 --> 00:08:29,516 Speaker 4: to nothing that your opponents say. It's quite extraordinary. I've 133 00:08:29,516 --> 00:08:33,436 Speaker 4: met it before, but never quite so badly as it 134 00:08:33,436 --> 00:08:37,356 Speaker 4: occurs in you. You keep saying things that neither of 135 00:08:37,436 --> 00:08:40,236 Speaker 4: us have said, and then you try to pathologize what 136 00:08:40,276 --> 00:08:43,356 Speaker 4: we say. Now, Malcolm, why don't you listen to what 137 00:08:43,436 --> 00:08:46,436 Speaker 4: comes out of our mouths and try to learn something 138 00:08:46,436 --> 00:08:49,076 Speaker 4: from it? As I am with you this evening, But 139 00:08:49,316 --> 00:08:53,316 Speaker 4: at the moment, all I get is you dismissing every 140 00:08:53,396 --> 00:08:56,996 Speaker 4: single story we come up with, every egregious failure of 141 00:08:57,036 --> 00:08:58,036 Speaker 4: the mainstream media. 142 00:09:00,636 --> 00:09:03,956 Speaker 2: A friend of mine afterwards texted me to say, why 143 00:09:03,956 --> 00:09:06,356 Speaker 2: didn't you tell me you were up against Douglas Murray. 144 00:09:06,876 --> 00:09:09,676 Speaker 2: I would have warned you to stay home. A simple 145 00:09:09,756 --> 00:09:12,316 Speaker 2: YouTube search would have shown me that he's a regular 146 00:09:12,316 --> 00:09:16,316 Speaker 2: at the fabled Oxford Debating Union, a master of the 147 00:09:16,356 --> 00:09:17,796 Speaker 2: cut and thrust. 148 00:09:18,556 --> 00:09:21,636 Speaker 4: But I beg you to actually consider the fact that 149 00:09:21,676 --> 00:09:25,396 Speaker 4: what we are describing is, even if you think, not 150 00:09:25,636 --> 00:09:28,636 Speaker 4: as accurate as you would like, an expression of a 151 00:09:28,716 --> 00:09:34,196 Speaker 4: problem that is going on in our societies. Functioning. Functioning 152 00:09:34,556 --> 00:09:39,356 Speaker 4: liberal democracies need to have trust in their media, and 153 00:09:39,596 --> 00:09:41,436 Speaker 4: the best that your site has been able to come 154 00:09:41,516 --> 00:09:44,036 Speaker 4: up with so far tonight is to say, we get 155 00:09:44,076 --> 00:09:46,716 Speaker 4: things wrong quite often, but you should trust us. 156 00:09:53,116 --> 00:09:56,076 Speaker 2: You can't see it listening as you are. But Murray 157 00:09:56,116 --> 00:09:57,836 Speaker 2: had the room in the palm of his hand. 158 00:09:58,196 --> 00:10:02,476 Speaker 4: Take the hunter Biden's story. Oh here we okay, I'm sorry. 159 00:10:03,916 --> 00:10:05,876 Speaker 4: Of course you don't want to no end to that 160 00:10:05,956 --> 00:10:09,836 Speaker 4: kind of of course you don't want to hear it, Malcolm. 161 00:10:09,916 --> 00:10:13,636 Speaker 4: Of course you wouldn't because it goes against your ideological presumptions. 162 00:10:18,476 --> 00:10:21,156 Speaker 2: In the Monk debate, the audience votes on the resolution 163 00:10:21,356 --> 00:10:24,836 Speaker 2: once before the debate and then again after the debate 164 00:10:24,876 --> 00:10:27,036 Speaker 2: is over, and the winner is the side that causes 165 00:10:27,076 --> 00:10:31,476 Speaker 2: the most people to change their minds. Remember the resolution 166 00:10:31,596 --> 00:10:35,636 Speaker 2: that night was be it resolved, do not trust the 167 00:10:35,676 --> 00:10:36,516 Speaker 2: mainstream media. 168 00:10:37,076 --> 00:10:42,116 Speaker 1: Let's just quickly review where we started out tonight's debate. 169 00:10:42,836 --> 00:10:45,596 Speaker 1: It was pretty much a split opinion. If I believe 170 00:10:45,636 --> 00:10:49,676 Speaker 1: it was forty eight in favor, fifty two opposed. We 171 00:10:49,756 --> 00:10:53,716 Speaker 1: then asked you how many could change your mind. So 172 00:10:53,796 --> 00:10:57,076 Speaker 1: let's see what happened of the last ninety minutes. Did 173 00:10:57,476 --> 00:11:02,396 Speaker 1: either team of these debaters swing opinion one way or another? 174 00:11:02,796 --> 00:11:07,956 Speaker 1: There we go sixty seven per set in favor of 175 00:11:07,996 --> 00:11:11,836 Speaker 1: the motion, thirty three percent of post. 176 00:11:12,876 --> 00:11:16,876 Speaker 2: It was the biggest swing in opinion in the history 177 00:11:17,236 --> 00:11:26,796 Speaker 2: of the Monk debates. We got cream. I went back 178 00:11:26,836 --> 00:11:30,196 Speaker 2: to my hotel room, lay down on my bed, stared 179 00:11:30,236 --> 00:11:33,676 Speaker 2: at the ceiling, and made the mistake of checking social media. 180 00:11:34,876 --> 00:11:38,316 Speaker 7: Malcolm gave the perfect talk to show exactly why nobody 181 00:11:38,316 --> 00:11:42,116 Speaker 7: trusts his media. Malcolm Gladwell has failed as an intellectual 182 00:11:42,156 --> 00:11:42,836 Speaker 7: in this debate. 183 00:11:43,316 --> 00:11:46,476 Speaker 8: Wow, you got owned and you were so smug and 184 00:11:46,596 --> 00:11:49,076 Speaker 8: arrogant as you were getting known be better. 185 00:11:49,476 --> 00:11:50,796 Speaker 2: You've lost my respect. 186 00:11:51,756 --> 00:11:55,236 Speaker 9: This was a funeral for Malcolm Gladwell's reputation. 187 00:11:55,916 --> 00:11:58,036 Speaker 5: Gladwell's not half as smart as I thought. 188 00:11:58,036 --> 00:11:59,436 Speaker 7: He was just washed. 189 00:11:59,516 --> 00:12:03,396 Speaker 4: Malk get his butt kicked by Doug and really enjoyed it. 190 00:12:04,916 --> 00:12:23,836 Speaker 2: I had hit rock bottom. What do you do after 191 00:12:23,876 --> 00:12:27,396 Speaker 2: you've been humiliated? You call your mother, of course. 192 00:12:31,396 --> 00:12:38,596 Speaker 5: Tex While Meg style in English It says, when things 193 00:12:38,676 --> 00:12:43,516 Speaker 5: go wrong, convert them to something that is desirable. 194 00:12:44,676 --> 00:12:47,036 Speaker 2: And the first thing my mother did when I asked 195 00:12:47,036 --> 00:12:51,036 Speaker 2: for maternal reassurance was remind me of an expression from 196 00:12:51,036 --> 00:12:55,796 Speaker 2: her native Jamaica. This is my mom's first solo appearance 197 00:12:55,796 --> 00:12:58,676 Speaker 2: on Revisionist History. By the way, what kind of son 198 00:12:58,796 --> 00:13:02,876 Speaker 2: makes his mother wait eight years for a cameo? I 199 00:13:02,916 --> 00:13:06,556 Speaker 2: want to go back over the pronunciation of the of 200 00:13:06,596 --> 00:13:09,956 Speaker 2: the words in dialect. Pronounce it and then spell them 201 00:13:09,956 --> 00:13:13,516 Speaker 2: out for me, just so I can see in my mind. Okay, 202 00:13:13,556 --> 00:13:14,756 Speaker 2: the expression. 203 00:13:16,076 --> 00:13:22,236 Speaker 5: Tech spoil t e K. It's it's a it's a 204 00:13:22,316 --> 00:13:29,516 Speaker 5: version of take take what is spoiled because we do 205 00:13:29,596 --> 00:13:34,436 Speaker 5: not use the rounded vowels in Jamaica. They're all broad 206 00:13:34,756 --> 00:13:40,276 Speaker 5: a vowels. We instead of saying spoil, we say spoil. Yeah, 207 00:13:41,636 --> 00:13:47,876 Speaker 5: but they're all English words. Take, spoil, make style. Those 208 00:13:47,916 --> 00:13:51,596 Speaker 5: are four English words, but they're just pronounced differently. 209 00:13:52,516 --> 00:13:54,556 Speaker 2: It's beautifully economical. 210 00:13:54,676 --> 00:13:59,556 Speaker 5: Exactly that. It's the economy and also the humor which 211 00:13:59,596 --> 00:14:01,636 Speaker 5: is which, which is also striking. 212 00:14:01,956 --> 00:14:04,836 Speaker 2: Put it in a sentence in your best Jamaican dialect. 213 00:14:06,156 --> 00:14:09,116 Speaker 5: We don't use it in a sentence. We use it 214 00:14:09,316 --> 00:14:14,396 Speaker 5: as a commentary on a situation. Here is someone walking 215 00:14:14,436 --> 00:14:19,156 Speaker 5: along in a dress that does not fit with what 216 00:14:19,436 --> 00:14:28,276 Speaker 5: is commonly being used, and she says, well, midare you 217 00:14:28,516 --> 00:14:32,436 Speaker 5: watch and see everybody will be wearing a dress like 218 00:14:32,556 --> 00:14:36,196 Speaker 5: this soon. Maya techspoile make style. 219 00:14:39,396 --> 00:14:43,476 Speaker 2: This was her moral instruction to me in typically elliptical 220 00:14:43,596 --> 00:14:48,276 Speaker 2: choice glabor fashion, Take lemons and make lemonade, take spoil 221 00:14:48,876 --> 00:14:55,596 Speaker 2: and make style. So what did I do? I went 222 00:14:55,636 --> 00:14:57,876 Speaker 2: straight to the top. I got in touch with the 223 00:14:57,916 --> 00:15:01,396 Speaker 2: local legend of New York debating K M. D. Colandria 224 00:15:01,556 --> 00:15:06,156 Speaker 2: aka deca, founder of the Brooklyn Debate League. I told 225 00:15:06,196 --> 00:15:09,596 Speaker 2: Dica about the very public undressing Sid effered on the 226 00:15:09,596 --> 00:15:13,316 Speaker 2: stage of Roy Thompson Hall, and Dico said, you need 227 00:15:13,356 --> 00:15:16,676 Speaker 2: to come to Brooklyn, And so I did, all the 228 00:15:16,716 --> 00:15:19,156 Speaker 2: way to the Crown Heights neighborhood in what used to 229 00:15:19,196 --> 00:15:23,996 Speaker 2: be the old Hebrew Hospital, Narrow Hallway, cats, everyone eating 230 00:15:24,036 --> 00:15:27,836 Speaker 2: big bulls of pasta, Franklin Avenue shuttle lumbering along in 231 00:15:27,876 --> 00:15:28,436 Speaker 2: the background. 232 00:15:30,436 --> 00:15:33,756 Speaker 7: What's all, George, Oh you can't do that? 233 00:15:33,836 --> 00:15:37,156 Speaker 2: During the podcast, really, Dico had put together a dream 234 00:15:37,196 --> 00:15:40,996 Speaker 2: team of three to analyze my performance. Sissan Kuss Rove, 235 00:15:41,716 --> 00:15:48,476 Speaker 2: Jonathan Conyers and Dico himself. Jonathan is built like a linebacker, 236 00:15:48,916 --> 00:15:52,556 Speaker 2: Big James hardened Beard works as a respiratory therapist when 237 00:15:52,556 --> 00:15:59,276 Speaker 2: he's not writing books and teaching debate. Cissan is thirty something, extroverted, charismatic. 238 00:15:59,716 --> 00:16:02,036 Speaker 2: In the John Grisham version of his life, he would 239 00:16:02,036 --> 00:16:04,316 Speaker 2: be a trial lawyer who would win a ten billion 240 00:16:04,356 --> 00:16:09,036 Speaker 2: dollar verdict from the jury in Mississippi. Dico is reserved, 241 00:16:09,396 --> 00:16:13,076 Speaker 2: studied philosophy at Yale, Irish and Italian and background, and 242 00:16:13,236 --> 00:16:16,876 Speaker 2: somewhere along the line converted to Judaism and went to 243 00:16:16,956 --> 00:16:21,316 Speaker 2: rabbinical school. I sat down at Deco's kitchen table. Each 244 00:16:21,356 --> 00:16:25,116 Speaker 2: of the three had pages of densely written notes in 245 00:16:25,156 --> 00:16:30,796 Speaker 2: front of them they had prepared. Jonathan was to my left. 246 00:16:31,276 --> 00:16:34,996 Speaker 2: I started with him, Jonathan, can you speak to the 247 00:16:35,396 --> 00:16:39,556 Speaker 2: Was the tone different from the debates you're used to 248 00:16:39,716 --> 00:16:40,636 Speaker 2: with students? 249 00:16:41,356 --> 00:16:43,876 Speaker 7: So that's a very good question. So I'll answer this 250 00:16:43,916 --> 00:16:47,836 Speaker 7: in two ways. The tone that you had throughout the 251 00:16:47,876 --> 00:16:50,516 Speaker 7: debate was very similar to some of the students that 252 00:16:50,596 --> 00:16:52,836 Speaker 7: I do work with, and that's what I teached them. 253 00:16:55,356 --> 00:16:56,956 Speaker 2: I have the thickest kid in the world. No, I 254 00:16:56,956 --> 00:17:00,076 Speaker 2: want to just pile on Oh they piled on. 255 00:17:00,876 --> 00:17:04,236 Speaker 9: So San was next, And I think what I want 256 00:17:04,276 --> 00:17:08,156 Speaker 9: to explore is the sort of disconnect between the things 257 00:17:08,156 --> 00:17:11,676 Speaker 9: that you thought should have mattered to the audience and 258 00:17:11,796 --> 00:17:14,116 Speaker 9: what actually turned out to matter. 259 00:17:13,916 --> 00:17:14,636 Speaker 7: To the audience. 260 00:17:14,796 --> 00:17:17,276 Speaker 2: Bendica, what was your strategy? 261 00:17:17,316 --> 00:17:18,476 Speaker 9: Why do you think you won? 262 00:17:18,636 --> 00:17:20,596 Speaker 10: Like if you talked us through, like your offense on 263 00:17:20,636 --> 00:17:22,876 Speaker 10: that debate, like why do you think you want. 264 00:17:24,156 --> 00:17:28,876 Speaker 2: I thought that that any it was to be honest, 265 00:17:29,436 --> 00:17:32,476 Speaker 2: it began with a certain degree of arrogance that I 266 00:17:32,516 --> 00:17:36,476 Speaker 2: thought I just couldn't imagine how anyone could legitimately argue 267 00:17:36,516 --> 00:17:39,996 Speaker 2: that the mainstream media was worse than the at tournative. 268 00:17:40,796 --> 00:17:44,356 Speaker 2: Oh boy, let's start there. If I assume that most 269 00:17:44,356 --> 00:17:47,196 Speaker 2: people were on my side before I began, then why 270 00:17:47,236 --> 00:17:51,516 Speaker 2: was I even debating. Debating is persuasion. It's based on 271 00:17:51,596 --> 00:17:54,276 Speaker 2: the idea that there are people listening who don't agree 272 00:17:54,316 --> 00:17:57,156 Speaker 2: with you, and your job is to change their mind. 273 00:17:57,716 --> 00:18:01,596 Speaker 2: It's not a conversation. It's not you say what you think, 274 00:18:01,716 --> 00:18:05,516 Speaker 2: I say what I think. It's a contest adjudicated by 275 00:18:05,516 --> 00:18:07,796 Speaker 2: a third party, and the winner is a person who 276 00:18:07,876 --> 00:18:10,756 Speaker 2: does the best job of clients inside the head of 277 00:18:10,796 --> 00:18:11,636 Speaker 2: that third party. 278 00:18:12,236 --> 00:18:17,196 Speaker 9: Because Ultimately, the wind condition of debate is the judge 279 00:18:17,196 --> 00:18:18,076 Speaker 9: circle in your name. 280 00:18:18,676 --> 00:18:20,356 Speaker 2: Sissan was the first to respond. 281 00:18:21,116 --> 00:18:24,156 Speaker 9: Ultimately, it's figuring out what's important to that person and 282 00:18:24,236 --> 00:18:27,476 Speaker 9: how do I show them that this thing that I'm 283 00:18:27,516 --> 00:18:32,916 Speaker 9: advocating for functions under a value system that they hold. 284 00:18:33,996 --> 00:18:37,476 Speaker 9: I think that's what's important about debate, and it's. 285 00:18:37,316 --> 00:18:42,436 Speaker 2: An empathetic it's an intellectual exercise in empathy. Empathy. I 286 00:18:42,636 --> 00:18:45,596 Speaker 2: just failed the first test of debating. I should have 287 00:18:45,676 --> 00:18:48,676 Speaker 2: put myself inside the heads of those in the audience 288 00:18:48,716 --> 00:18:51,676 Speaker 2: who didn't trust the mainstream media and then try and 289 00:18:51,676 --> 00:18:56,116 Speaker 2: bring them around. Second related point. If you watch the 290 00:18:56,156 --> 00:18:59,156 Speaker 2: whole ninety minute debate on YouTube, which for the love 291 00:18:59,196 --> 00:19:01,636 Speaker 2: of God I dearly hope you do not, you will 292 00:19:01,636 --> 00:19:04,436 Speaker 2: notice that mister Murray and I did not get along. 293 00:19:05,396 --> 00:19:08,316 Speaker 2: At a few points. I called him Doug, to which 294 00:19:08,476 --> 00:19:11,436 Speaker 2: he took great aense and called me Malk. 295 00:19:12,436 --> 00:19:21,116 Speaker 4: Well, Malk, I'm going to try to take this more 296 00:19:21,116 --> 00:19:25,716 Speaker 4: seriously than you did in your endless creation of straw men, 297 00:19:25,876 --> 00:19:27,276 Speaker 4: which just is ceaseless. 298 00:19:27,316 --> 00:19:30,796 Speaker 2: This evening, after the debate was over, Murray tweeted and 299 00:19:30,916 --> 00:19:35,436 Speaker 2: retweeted word of his victory fourteen times. He's that kind 300 00:19:35,436 --> 00:19:38,636 Speaker 2: of guy. But my advisors at the Brooklyn Debate League 301 00:19:38,916 --> 00:19:42,796 Speaker 2: were not happy about my antipathy towards mister Murray. If 302 00:19:42,836 --> 00:19:46,556 Speaker 2: reading the mind of the judge requires empathy, then how 303 00:19:46,676 --> 00:19:50,116 Speaker 2: is pursuing some personal vendetta going to help matters? How 304 00:19:50,116 --> 00:19:52,876 Speaker 2: do you engage in the delicate art of persuasion if 305 00:19:52,916 --> 00:19:56,876 Speaker 2: you're getting all emotional. I tried to explain, I didn't 306 00:19:56,916 --> 00:20:00,076 Speaker 2: know Douglas Murray much at all, so I did a 307 00:20:00,116 --> 00:20:03,316 Speaker 2: little research into Douglas Murray in terms of the Douglas 308 00:20:03,436 --> 00:20:07,316 Speaker 2: Murray without meaning. I'm not intending to demean him, but 309 00:20:07,716 --> 00:20:12,316 Speaker 2: he is someone. He is one of those english people, 310 00:20:12,356 --> 00:20:16,356 Speaker 2: white english people who objects to the number of non 311 00:20:16,396 --> 00:20:18,876 Speaker 2: white people who have moved to England in the last 312 00:20:19,076 --> 00:20:22,716 Speaker 2: fifty years. I'm actually not exaggerating here. Let me read 313 00:20:22,756 --> 00:20:25,996 Speaker 2: too from a speech Murray once gave. It is late 314 00:20:26,036 --> 00:20:29,076 Speaker 2: in the day, but Europe still has time to turn 315 00:20:29,116 --> 00:20:32,796 Speaker 2: around the demographic time bomb, which will soon see a 316 00:20:32,836 --> 00:20:37,676 Speaker 2: number of our largest cities fall to Muslim majorities. It 317 00:20:37,756 --> 00:20:42,916 Speaker 2: has to All immigration into Europe from Muslim countries must 318 00:20:43,076 --> 00:20:46,676 Speaker 2: stop in the case of a further genocide such as 319 00:20:46,676 --> 00:20:49,316 Speaker 2: that in the Balkans, sanctuary would be given on a 320 00:20:49,356 --> 00:20:55,156 Speaker 2: strictly temporary basis. This should also be enacted retrospectively. Those 321 00:20:55,196 --> 00:20:58,676 Speaker 2: who are currently in Europe having fled tyrannies should be 322 00:20:58,756 --> 00:21:02,156 Speaker 2: persuaded back to the countries which they fled from once 323 00:21:02,196 --> 00:21:04,676 Speaker 2: the tyrannies that were the cause of their flight have 324 00:21:04,796 --> 00:21:08,716 Speaker 2: been removed. That last sentence from Murray is what throws me. 325 00:21:09,316 --> 00:21:14,436 Speaker 2: Immigrants from certain places should be persuaded back to the 326 00:21:14,476 --> 00:21:17,076 Speaker 2: countries from which they fled. Like there's the whole thing 327 00:21:17,756 --> 00:21:20,756 Speaker 2: that he does with on Andrew Sullivan's podcast where he 328 00:21:20,796 --> 00:21:24,436 Speaker 2: talks about his dismay that many there are many cities 329 00:21:24,436 --> 00:21:27,316 Speaker 2: in England now where whites are in the minority. Now. 330 00:21:27,356 --> 00:21:29,556 Speaker 2: My mother happens to be one of those people who 331 00:21:29,556 --> 00:21:31,956 Speaker 2: was a black woman who emigrated to England in nineteen 332 00:21:33,516 --> 00:21:37,156 Speaker 2: sixty three or whatever, sixty two. So she's talking in 333 00:21:37,156 --> 00:21:41,796 Speaker 2: the fifties, he's talking about So he's talking about my mother, right, 334 00:21:41,876 --> 00:21:45,156 Speaker 2: So this is like it was it's street for me. 335 00:21:45,236 --> 00:21:48,716 Speaker 11: It's like that dude is that dude is one of 336 00:21:48,836 --> 00:21:50,516 Speaker 11: you know, people used to shout the. 337 00:21:50,516 --> 00:21:51,956 Speaker 2: End word to my mom when she walked down the 338 00:21:51,956 --> 00:21:55,436 Speaker 2: street in England in nineteen fifty whatever, and I'm in 339 00:21:55,436 --> 00:21:58,116 Speaker 2: my mind, I'm imagining he's one of those people, right, 340 00:21:58,636 --> 00:22:01,036 Speaker 2: So it's like that's what was happening when I was 341 00:22:01,076 --> 00:22:03,996 Speaker 2: getting riled up. I was like, I walked in thinking 342 00:22:04,596 --> 00:22:08,196 Speaker 2: he's a piece of shit. That's I realized now, you 343 00:22:08,236 --> 00:22:11,796 Speaker 2: can't do that. If you do that, you've lost before 344 00:22:11,796 --> 00:22:14,996 Speaker 2: you've even started. This is why in high school debate 345 00:22:15,236 --> 00:22:18,556 Speaker 2: you have to prepare both sides beforehand and you find 346 00:22:18,596 --> 00:22:21,476 Speaker 2: out whether you are for or against the resolution on 347 00:22:21,516 --> 00:22:23,996 Speaker 2: the day of the debate. They don't want you to 348 00:22:24,036 --> 00:22:24,676 Speaker 2: be yourself. 349 00:22:24,996 --> 00:22:29,276 Speaker 7: And again, like you know, Dicoka attested this more than anybody. 350 00:22:29,356 --> 00:22:33,236 Speaker 7: Dico has had students who parents have just been deported 351 00:22:33,316 --> 00:22:34,756 Speaker 7: or on the verge of being deported and didn't have 352 00:22:34,796 --> 00:22:38,036 Speaker 7: to go and speak about open borders and immigration and 353 00:22:38,076 --> 00:22:39,796 Speaker 7: don't know which side of the fence they have to 354 00:22:39,836 --> 00:22:43,396 Speaker 7: debate on. That is tough for fourteen fifteen year olds too. 355 00:22:43,436 --> 00:22:44,876 Speaker 7: After they give a speech, I have to go cry 356 00:22:44,916 --> 00:22:46,636 Speaker 7: because they missed their dad or mom and they don't 357 00:22:46,676 --> 00:22:48,956 Speaker 7: know if ice is coming or I can't do this. 358 00:22:49,036 --> 00:22:50,836 Speaker 7: I can't do that. When I get it, I have 359 00:22:50,956 --> 00:22:54,596 Speaker 7: been there there were times where I felt racism occurring, 360 00:22:54,676 --> 00:22:57,196 Speaker 7: or people told me you can't use your personal story. 361 00:22:57,436 --> 00:23:00,396 Speaker 7: That's not fear. This rich kid don't understand what it's 362 00:23:00,436 --> 00:23:02,356 Speaker 7: like to be poor, so don't talk about that. So 363 00:23:02,476 --> 00:23:04,556 Speaker 7: it happens. We have to come in and understand that 364 00:23:04,596 --> 00:23:07,196 Speaker 7: debates are not personal and we have to talk about 365 00:23:07,236 --> 00:23:09,556 Speaker 7: these topics because if we can't have dialogue, if we 366 00:23:09,596 --> 00:23:14,436 Speaker 7: can't have respect in all this loss. So I'm going 367 00:23:14,516 --> 00:23:16,396 Speaker 7: to challenge you, Malcolm, to say, if they can control 368 00:23:16,436 --> 00:23:18,596 Speaker 7: the opposure and if they can understand that we can 369 00:23:18,636 --> 00:23:20,556 Speaker 7: have real conversations, so can you. 370 00:23:23,636 --> 00:23:26,596 Speaker 2: Our culture tells us to be authentic and put our 371 00:23:26,716 --> 00:23:29,716 Speaker 2: feelings first. But if you're trying to win a debate, 372 00:23:30,236 --> 00:23:33,716 Speaker 2: your focus needs to be on your opponent's feelings, how 373 00:23:33,796 --> 00:23:38,596 Speaker 2: their mind works. That's the number one. Don't be yourself. 374 00:23:39,156 --> 00:23:49,396 Speaker 2: It's a dead end. Okay. Second, lesson, all of my 375 00:23:49,476 --> 00:23:52,956 Speaker 2: advisors at the Brooklyn Debate League were baffled by a 376 00:23:52,996 --> 00:23:57,476 Speaker 2: crucial moment early in the debate, this moment in particular. 377 00:23:58,156 --> 00:24:02,316 Speaker 4: And nobody is saying that non mainstream media don't have frailties. 378 00:24:02,356 --> 00:24:03,276 Speaker 7: Of course they do. 379 00:24:03,756 --> 00:24:06,236 Speaker 4: The simple proposal in front of the audience tonight is 380 00:24:06,276 --> 00:24:09,756 Speaker 4: whether or not you can trust the mainstream media. That 381 00:24:09,836 --> 00:24:11,476 Speaker 4: is that you don't need anything else. You don't need 382 00:24:11,516 --> 00:24:15,156 Speaker 4: any other information from else where. You can just turn 383 00:24:15,196 --> 00:24:17,036 Speaker 4: on CBC in the evening and you know you've got 384 00:24:17,076 --> 00:24:19,156 Speaker 4: your stuff. You can pick up the New York Times 385 00:24:19,156 --> 00:24:20,676 Speaker 4: the Washington Posts in the morning and you know that 386 00:24:20,716 --> 00:24:23,756 Speaker 4: there's no spin on the story. It's absolutely accurate reporting. 387 00:24:24,156 --> 00:24:28,796 Speaker 2: The debate Connoisseuran Sasan loved this little move. What Murray 388 00:24:28,876 --> 00:24:30,996 Speaker 2: was saying was that if you have even the slightest 389 00:24:31,076 --> 00:24:34,196 Speaker 2: doubt about the perfection of the mainstream media, then you 390 00:24:34,276 --> 00:24:37,916 Speaker 2: have to vote for his side, and no institution can 391 00:24:37,956 --> 00:24:41,876 Speaker 2: meet that standard. It's like saying, unless all prescription drugs 392 00:24:41,916 --> 00:24:45,316 Speaker 2: are guaranteed to act perfectly every time without side effects 393 00:24:45,356 --> 00:24:49,756 Speaker 2: or complications, you can't trust prescription drugs. It's nuts. 394 00:24:52,556 --> 00:24:58,956 Speaker 9: They took this topic don't trust mainstream media and made 395 00:24:59,116 --> 00:25:03,956 Speaker 9: the central question of the debate be are there political 396 00:25:03,996 --> 00:25:08,276 Speaker 9: biases in mainstream media? As long as that's the question 397 00:25:08,516 --> 00:25:12,076 Speaker 9: that the audience is asking themselves to make the winner, 398 00:25:12,116 --> 00:25:12,516 Speaker 9: you lose. 399 00:25:13,116 --> 00:25:16,156 Speaker 2: What my side should have said was, wait a minute, 400 00:25:16,476 --> 00:25:19,476 Speaker 2: the way you guys are defining the resolution makes no sense. 401 00:25:20,276 --> 00:25:22,436 Speaker 2: So San said that then I'd be free to offer 402 00:25:22,596 --> 00:25:24,916 Speaker 2: a simple alternative, something like. 403 00:25:25,076 --> 00:25:32,916 Speaker 9: In a scenario where a non mainstream news source and 404 00:25:33,116 --> 00:25:37,396 Speaker 9: a mainstream news source directly disagree with each other, and 405 00:25:37,436 --> 00:25:40,396 Speaker 9: we have no way of discerning who's right based on 406 00:25:40,476 --> 00:25:42,756 Speaker 9: what we have available to us, who should we give 407 00:25:42,756 --> 00:25:45,036 Speaker 9: the benefit of the doubt to? I think that leans 408 00:25:45,076 --> 00:25:46,396 Speaker 9: a lot more your way. 409 00:25:46,516 --> 00:25:49,356 Speaker 2: But we didn't say that. We sat there and let 410 00:25:49,396 --> 00:25:54,356 Speaker 2: our opponents stack the deck against us. Why Dico had 411 00:25:54,356 --> 00:25:55,116 Speaker 2: a hunch. 412 00:25:55,036 --> 00:25:58,036 Speaker 10: Did you write down any notes while your opponents were speaking? 413 00:25:58,156 --> 00:25:58,796 Speaker 7: What were you doing? 414 00:25:58,916 --> 00:25:59,076 Speaker 5: Well? 415 00:25:59,116 --> 00:25:59,476 Speaker 3: That was. 416 00:26:01,036 --> 00:26:03,956 Speaker 2: I was scribbling furiously. I was the only one who was. 417 00:26:03,996 --> 00:26:06,516 Speaker 10: But I realized they were saying or what you were thinking. 418 00:26:06,716 --> 00:26:09,956 Speaker 2: Both, But I realized it inhibited my ability to listen 419 00:26:09,956 --> 00:26:13,196 Speaker 2: to them. So I was so busy I was trying 420 00:26:13,196 --> 00:26:15,196 Speaker 2: to conceive of what I would how i'd respond in 421 00:26:15,196 --> 00:26:17,236 Speaker 2: the moment. So while I was doing that, I was 422 00:26:17,316 --> 00:26:20,836 Speaker 2: missing what the next part of the next thing that 423 00:26:20,836 --> 00:26:22,956 Speaker 2: they were saying, do you know? I mean? Dico also 424 00:26:23,036 --> 00:26:26,036 Speaker 2: picked up on what led to my most embarrassing moment 425 00:26:26,396 --> 00:26:30,596 Speaker 2: in the whole debate, the Walter Cronkite thing. A AI 426 00:26:33,956 --> 00:26:37,636 Speaker 2: Cronkite was as I'm sure, you know the legendary CBS 427 00:26:37,636 --> 00:26:41,716 Speaker 2: news anchor and wartime correspondent who for decades stood for 428 00:26:41,796 --> 00:26:46,316 Speaker 2: all that was dignified and trustworthy in American journalism. Matt 429 00:26:46,396 --> 00:26:48,956 Speaker 2: Taibi brought him up in his opening statement. 430 00:26:49,996 --> 00:26:52,796 Speaker 3: Once the commercial strategy of the news business was to 431 00:26:52,796 --> 00:26:56,716 Speaker 3: go for the whole audience. A TV news broadcast was 432 00:26:56,836 --> 00:27:00,116 Speaker 3: aired at dinner time, and it was designed to be 433 00:27:00,196 --> 00:27:04,036 Speaker 3: watched by the entire family, everyone from your crazy right 434 00:27:04,036 --> 00:27:07,516 Speaker 3: wing uncle to the sulking lefty teenager in the corner. 435 00:27:09,436 --> 00:27:12,796 Speaker 3: The system had flaws, but making an effort to talk 436 00:27:12,836 --> 00:27:17,276 Speaker 3: to everybody had benefits for one thing, and inspired trust. 437 00:27:18,916 --> 00:27:23,436 Speaker 3: Gallup polls twice twice showed Walter Cronkite to be the 438 00:27:23,476 --> 00:27:26,836 Speaker 3: most trusted person in all of America. That would never 439 00:27:26,956 --> 00:27:31,076 Speaker 3: happen with a news reader today. With the arrival of 440 00:27:31,076 --> 00:27:34,156 Speaker 3: the Internet, some outlets found that instead of going after 441 00:27:34,196 --> 00:27:38,036 Speaker 3: the whole audience, it made more financial sense to pick 442 00:27:38,076 --> 00:27:41,356 Speaker 3: one demographic and try to dominate it. How do you 443 00:27:41,436 --> 00:27:44,396 Speaker 3: do that? That's easy. You just pick an audience and 444 00:27:44,436 --> 00:27:48,516 Speaker 3: feed it news you know they'll like. Instead of starting 445 00:27:48,516 --> 00:27:51,596 Speaker 3: with a story and following the facts, you start with 446 00:27:51,636 --> 00:27:55,796 Speaker 3: what pleases your audience and work backward to the story. 447 00:27:56,396 --> 00:28:03,036 Speaker 2: Back when we had Cronkite, the system worked. I heard that, 448 00:28:03,196 --> 00:28:07,196 Speaker 2: and I thought, give me an effing break. So when 449 00:28:07,236 --> 00:28:11,596 Speaker 2: it was my turn, I responded, I was greatly amused 450 00:28:11,636 --> 00:28:14,476 Speaker 2: by the affection Matt Tabby has for the age of 451 00:28:14,556 --> 00:28:17,316 Speaker 2: Walter Cronkite, which he seemed to hold up as a 452 00:28:17,356 --> 00:28:21,156 Speaker 2: kind of golden moment. In that moment, the mainstream media 453 00:28:21,316 --> 00:28:26,956 Speaker 2: was pipulated entirely by white men from elite schools. Why 454 00:28:27,036 --> 00:28:30,796 Speaker 2: you would have had such affection and say that's the 455 00:28:31,076 --> 00:28:34,796 Speaker 2: gold standard and we should trust the mainstream media precisely 456 00:28:34,836 --> 00:28:37,836 Speaker 2: at the moment when the mainstream media is least representative. 457 00:28:38,276 --> 00:28:42,036 Speaker 2: Is really puzzling to me. Then Douglas Murray chimed in, of. 458 00:28:41,956 --> 00:28:46,276 Speaker 4: Course, Malcolm, you did a little nasty jab there by 459 00:28:46,356 --> 00:28:49,076 Speaker 4: trying to pretend that Matt Tabi is desperate for the 460 00:28:49,116 --> 00:28:53,556 Speaker 4: era of white men in broadcasting. Takes a certain hutzpur 461 00:28:53,836 --> 00:28:54,836 Speaker 4: to make that claim. 462 00:28:55,636 --> 00:28:58,716 Speaker 2: Tabe then defended himself, and. 463 00:28:58,756 --> 00:29:03,756 Speaker 3: Yes, as I said in my speech, the old system 464 00:29:03,876 --> 00:29:06,676 Speaker 3: under Walter Cronkite had its flaws, but it did have 465 00:29:06,796 --> 00:29:10,716 Speaker 3: its advantages as well. Making the effort to talk to 466 00:29:10,756 --> 00:29:15,356 Speaker 3: everybody garner more trust in the public. There is a 467 00:29:15,396 --> 00:29:19,956 Speaker 3: reason why people trusted newspeople more twenty or thirty or 468 00:29:19,956 --> 00:29:21,476 Speaker 3: forty years ago than they do now. 469 00:29:21,676 --> 00:29:25,356 Speaker 2: And once again I got irritated, this time with that 470 00:29:25,396 --> 00:29:29,156 Speaker 2: phrase making the effort to talk to everyone I just 471 00:29:29,196 --> 00:29:31,196 Speaker 2: wanted to do. Make a short list of the people 472 00:29:31,476 --> 00:29:34,956 Speaker 2: who were not spoken to by journalists in the nineteen 473 00:29:34,996 --> 00:29:38,836 Speaker 2: fifties and sixties. And you may want to add some 474 00:29:38,956 --> 00:29:43,676 Speaker 2: if I miss some black people, a. 475 00:29:43,676 --> 00:29:54,276 Speaker 11: Women, poor people, gay people, people with mildly left wing views. 476 00:29:54,396 --> 00:30:01,316 Speaker 11: I mean, words fell me when somebody, when it presented 477 00:30:01,356 --> 00:30:05,916 Speaker 11: with a critique of his rather adiosyncratic position on Walter Cronkite, 478 00:30:06,076 --> 00:30:09,076 Speaker 11: comes back and says, oh no, no, no, there's more 479 00:30:09,236 --> 00:30:12,236 Speaker 11: or to my great love of this man. So I'm 480 00:30:12,276 --> 00:30:15,316 Speaker 11: on my high horse, waiting my work flag standing up 481 00:30:15,356 --> 00:30:19,276 Speaker 11: for inclusion. But wait, first, back to less than one. 482 00:30:19,716 --> 00:30:21,196 Speaker 11: Don't be myself. 483 00:30:21,556 --> 00:30:25,156 Speaker 2: It's not smart. But that's not even the worst of it. 484 00:30:25,756 --> 00:30:27,796 Speaker 10: Do you remember the context in which Matt brought that 485 00:30:27,836 --> 00:30:28,916 Speaker 10: comment up in his opening? 486 00:30:30,236 --> 00:30:36,036 Speaker 2: It was he was me talking about how that was 487 00:30:36,076 --> 00:30:41,196 Speaker 2: an example the way it was back then was worthy 488 00:30:41,196 --> 00:30:43,036 Speaker 2: of our trust. And it's not like that anymore. 489 00:30:43,076 --> 00:30:46,116 Speaker 10: You Remember why what he was saying in his opening 490 00:30:46,676 --> 00:30:49,836 Speaker 10: was not I am lifting up the nineteen fifties as 491 00:30:49,836 --> 00:30:52,716 Speaker 10: the golden standard of media and Walter Prava blah. Yes, 492 00:30:52,716 --> 00:30:54,396 Speaker 10: that sentencement came out of his mouth, but that's not 493 00:30:54,436 --> 00:30:56,956 Speaker 10: what he was saying. What he was saying was look 494 00:30:56,996 --> 00:30:59,876 Speaker 10: to the nineteen fifties, look to the past. When you 495 00:30:59,956 --> 00:31:03,996 Speaker 10: had a whole family gathered around the TVs watching one show, 496 00:31:04,636 --> 00:31:07,476 Speaker 10: that show had to talk to all of the people 497 00:31:07,476 --> 00:31:09,476 Speaker 10: in that room, to the parents, to the kids, to 498 00:31:09,516 --> 00:31:13,716 Speaker 10: the grandparents, even if they had different interests, different political ideologies, whatever. 499 00:31:14,076 --> 00:31:15,316 Speaker 9: That one show. 500 00:31:15,516 --> 00:31:18,516 Speaker 10: Had to talk to a diverse audience. It could not 501 00:31:18,916 --> 00:31:21,876 Speaker 10: have an agenda in the same way that it does today, 502 00:31:22,036 --> 00:31:24,836 Speaker 10: because today it's not talking to a whole family. It's 503 00:31:24,876 --> 00:31:27,636 Speaker 10: not even talking to a whole neighborhood or a whole household. 504 00:31:27,796 --> 00:31:30,556 Speaker 10: We all have our individual echo chambers that we lean 505 00:31:30,636 --> 00:31:31,276 Speaker 10: really hard into. 506 00:31:31,556 --> 00:31:31,716 Speaker 7: Right. 507 00:31:32,156 --> 00:31:34,276 Speaker 10: What he brought up about Walter Cronkite and about the 508 00:31:34,316 --> 00:31:37,476 Speaker 10: nineteen fifties was just a detail. 509 00:31:37,476 --> 00:31:41,076 Speaker 2: Oh, I see. Deco's point was that the people in 510 00:31:41,116 --> 00:31:45,116 Speaker 2: the audience, the judges, surely understood what Taibi was saying, 511 00:31:46,036 --> 00:31:47,756 Speaker 2: But I didn't. 512 00:31:47,596 --> 00:31:51,236 Speaker 12: The main point there was totally ignored, and it was 513 00:31:51,276 --> 00:31:54,036 Speaker 12: a really important point for the af offense because their 514 00:31:54,076 --> 00:31:58,196 Speaker 12: whole argument was you can't trust mainstream media because there 515 00:31:58,196 --> 00:31:59,756 Speaker 12: are agendas, because. 516 00:31:59,476 --> 00:32:01,796 Speaker 10: They're not trying to give you the truth. They're trying 517 00:32:01,836 --> 00:32:03,836 Speaker 10: to give you the spin and the story and cater 518 00:32:03,956 --> 00:32:06,996 Speaker 10: to a They call it demographic hunting. I think right 519 00:32:07,156 --> 00:32:09,116 Speaker 10: that they're catering to a specific demographic. 520 00:32:09,596 --> 00:32:14,116 Speaker 2: The Crownkite bit was a provocation waved in front of 521 00:32:14,156 --> 00:32:17,676 Speaker 2: Malcolm Gladwell that sent him charging off in the wrong direction. 522 00:32:17,956 --> 00:32:20,636 Speaker 10: It was like a distractor thrown in there that worked, 523 00:32:20,716 --> 00:32:23,876 Speaker 10: and you got totally distracted and went down this whole 524 00:32:24,036 --> 00:32:26,316 Speaker 10: rabbit hole and missed that bigger picture. 525 00:32:26,676 --> 00:32:38,756 Speaker 2: Where did I do anything? Well, no, not really remember 526 00:32:38,756 --> 00:32:39,996 Speaker 2: what Douglas Murray said. 527 00:32:40,756 --> 00:32:45,356 Speaker 4: It's so strange hearing you debate, Malcolm because you listen 528 00:32:45,436 --> 00:32:46,996 Speaker 4: to nothing that your opponents said. 529 00:32:49,996 --> 00:32:54,116 Speaker 2: Turns out he was right. And that was when Deco 530 00:32:54,276 --> 00:32:57,436 Speaker 2: told me I had to come to Brooklyn again for 531 00:32:57,556 --> 00:33:13,156 Speaker 2: listening lessons. I met with the Debate League at Unity Prep, 532 00:33:13,556 --> 00:33:17,396 Speaker 2: a charter high school in Williamsburg. I sat myself down 533 00:33:17,516 --> 00:33:20,156 Speaker 2: in a high school classroom for the first time since 534 00:33:20,156 --> 00:33:25,436 Speaker 2: the late nineteen seventies, Deca, Jonathan, and Sisan were all there, 535 00:33:25,956 --> 00:33:28,756 Speaker 2: along with a dozen or so high school debaters. There 536 00:33:28,796 --> 00:33:31,876 Speaker 2: was a step class in the adjoining room. I was 537 00:33:31,916 --> 00:33:34,236 Speaker 2: a long way from Roy Thompson Hall. 538 00:33:34,316 --> 00:33:39,596 Speaker 7: All right, open for him, look up. Being able to 539 00:33:39,636 --> 00:33:42,236 Speaker 7: listen is the most important skill a debater should have. 540 00:33:42,956 --> 00:33:46,436 Speaker 7: All right, stand up. You know the routine. If you agree, 541 00:33:46,436 --> 00:33:48,396 Speaker 7: you on this side. If you disagree, you on that side. 542 00:33:48,756 --> 00:33:49,716 Speaker 7: Come on, come on. 543 00:33:49,796 --> 00:33:53,196 Speaker 2: Jonathan kicked things off with a warm up exercise, open 544 00:33:53,276 --> 00:33:56,076 Speaker 2: for him, a mini debate on the question of the day. 545 00:33:56,596 --> 00:34:00,156 Speaker 2: What's more important to a debater being a good listener 546 00:34:00,836 --> 00:34:01,716 Speaker 2: or a good talker? 547 00:34:02,276 --> 00:34:04,956 Speaker 7: Agree is always over here, Disagree is always over there. Thanks. 548 00:34:06,276 --> 00:34:10,076 Speaker 7: Being able to listen, I'm so sorry. Being able to listen, 549 00:34:10,076 --> 00:34:13,476 Speaker 7: it's the most important skill that debata could have. Being 550 00:34:13,556 --> 00:34:15,676 Speaker 7: able to listen is the most important skill. 551 00:34:17,516 --> 00:34:19,996 Speaker 8: Is UH one of the most important skills in debating 552 00:34:20,116 --> 00:34:25,196 Speaker 8: because the way the way people read UH read their contentions, 553 00:34:25,196 --> 00:34:26,716 Speaker 8: and at some points you wouldn't be able to gain 554 00:34:26,876 --> 00:34:28,996 Speaker 8: gain and obtain as much information as you can to 555 00:34:28,996 --> 00:34:31,356 Speaker 8: put down in your blow chart. Because debating is not 556 00:34:31,356 --> 00:34:34,156 Speaker 8: only about using information against information, but it's also about 557 00:34:34,276 --> 00:34:37,836 Speaker 8: obtaining It's also about obtaining something and understanding that in 558 00:34:37,916 --> 00:34:41,636 Speaker 8: order to use information to fight it. 559 00:34:41,756 --> 00:34:44,316 Speaker 13: Welly, I do vo, I do agree with what you said. 560 00:34:44,436 --> 00:34:47,396 Speaker 13: I just feel like you can be a good listener. 561 00:34:47,596 --> 00:34:50,476 Speaker 13: But what it really takes is when you have confidence 562 00:34:50,596 --> 00:34:54,636 Speaker 13: and you basically pretend like you know your stuff. 563 00:34:54,716 --> 00:34:57,716 Speaker 14: But you also said you have to listen to your opponent. 564 00:34:57,996 --> 00:35:01,436 Speaker 14: So that's also a very important skill to listen to 565 00:35:01,476 --> 00:35:03,156 Speaker 14: your opponent, cause if you don't listen to it and 566 00:35:03,236 --> 00:35:05,556 Speaker 14: you just drawing stuff down, you might say the wrong 567 00:35:05,596 --> 00:35:07,556 Speaker 14: things or write down the wrong things to what your 568 00:35:07,556 --> 00:35:10,036 Speaker 14: opponent is saying. So I'm saying and that listener is 569 00:35:10,076 --> 00:35:13,956 Speaker 14: more important because, as my other teammate said Jade, she 570 00:35:14,116 --> 00:35:18,236 Speaker 14: also referred to how they read their contentions or their 571 00:35:18,276 --> 00:35:20,956 Speaker 14: sub points. They read fast, and if you can't catch 572 00:35:20,996 --> 00:35:23,276 Speaker 14: those points, then you're not gonna know what you gotta 573 00:35:23,316 --> 00:35:25,476 Speaker 14: write or what you gotta focus on. 574 00:35:25,716 --> 00:35:28,036 Speaker 8: Can I say something real fully? Yes, I have something 575 00:35:28,036 --> 00:35:33,436 Speaker 8: for all the output all accurate A Jay, To start 576 00:35:33,476 --> 00:35:34,836 Speaker 8: with what you said, you need to write in order 577 00:35:34,916 --> 00:35:36,836 Speaker 8: to you need to write in order to listen. But 578 00:35:37,116 --> 00:35:39,156 Speaker 8: it is true that that is true. But you but 579 00:35:39,276 --> 00:35:41,956 Speaker 8: Listening is a prerequisite to writing, because you can write 580 00:35:41,956 --> 00:35:43,636 Speaker 8: a whole but of nonsense. But what if you don't 581 00:35:43,636 --> 00:35:45,596 Speaker 8: have to write accurate information you didn't listen to the 582 00:35:45,676 --> 00:35:47,796 Speaker 8: right numbers, you listen to the racisistics, then what is 583 00:35:47,836 --> 00:35:48,556 Speaker 8: your writing have to do? 584 00:35:48,716 --> 00:35:49,076 Speaker 2: Anything? 585 00:35:49,196 --> 00:35:51,796 Speaker 8: I can sit there and draw up a ferry, but 586 00:35:51,916 --> 00:35:54,436 Speaker 8: that's not going to make my argument any better unless 587 00:35:54,436 --> 00:35:54,796 Speaker 8: you listen. 588 00:35:55,116 --> 00:35:56,276 Speaker 2: Then the hard part began. 589 00:35:56,756 --> 00:35:57,516 Speaker 9: What is this thing? 590 00:35:57,676 --> 00:35:59,996 Speaker 2: This wasn't Someone was standing at the front of the room. 591 00:36:00,476 --> 00:36:03,876 Speaker 2: He told us he would simulate a debate. Our job 592 00:36:03,996 --> 00:36:07,476 Speaker 2: was to keep track of every argument he made. In 593 00:36:07,556 --> 00:36:11,196 Speaker 2: the debate world. This is called flowing. Sassan said. He 594 00:36:11,196 --> 00:36:12,996 Speaker 2: would try and make it easier on us. So we're 595 00:36:12,996 --> 00:36:15,556 Speaker 2: going to do a game with playing cards where. 596 00:36:15,516 --> 00:36:20,036 Speaker 9: I am going to say the name of a card 597 00:36:20,556 --> 00:36:24,196 Speaker 9: in a deck of cards, and you are going to 598 00:36:24,276 --> 00:36:26,396 Speaker 9: flow it like it's a speech. So you're going to 599 00:36:26,436 --> 00:36:29,756 Speaker 9: make a column. So if you have a sheet of 600 00:36:29,796 --> 00:36:33,196 Speaker 9: paper and we have notebooks for you, you're going to 601 00:36:33,276 --> 00:36:38,436 Speaker 9: want five columns, and in this first column, top to bottom, 602 00:36:38,676 --> 00:36:42,116 Speaker 9: you are going to write the cards that I'm going 603 00:36:42,156 --> 00:36:44,596 Speaker 9: to say out loud. You're gonna want to listen carefully 604 00:36:44,636 --> 00:36:47,636 Speaker 9: because I'm not going to repeat anything. The test is 605 00:36:47,676 --> 00:36:49,516 Speaker 9: to see whether you're going to be able to write 606 00:36:49,556 --> 00:36:51,196 Speaker 9: it all down without missing anything. 607 00:36:52,036 --> 00:36:54,596 Speaker 2: Now, if you think this sounds like a silly exercise, 608 00:36:54,876 --> 00:36:57,916 Speaker 2: I encourage you to pause this podcast, get a pen 609 00:36:57,956 --> 00:36:59,956 Speaker 2: and paper and try it for yourself. 610 00:37:03,356 --> 00:37:07,596 Speaker 9: Ready, Hello, my name is Sasan and I'll be speaking 611 00:37:07,596 --> 00:37:10,996 Speaker 9: on the affirmative today. My first argument is the three 612 00:37:11,116 --> 00:37:13,956 Speaker 9: of hearts, and we know that's true because of the 613 00:37:13,996 --> 00:37:16,476 Speaker 9: four of diamonds. And you can't forget about the jack 614 00:37:16,676 --> 00:37:19,316 Speaker 9: of spades. You know, a lot of people tell me 615 00:37:19,756 --> 00:37:23,836 Speaker 9: ten of diamonds, but what those people don't realize is, 616 00:37:24,036 --> 00:37:28,476 Speaker 9: first off, ace of hearts, secondly the six of clubs, 617 00:37:28,796 --> 00:37:31,156 Speaker 9: and finally the nine of spades. 618 00:37:34,396 --> 00:37:34,836 Speaker 7: That's it. 619 00:37:34,916 --> 00:37:40,596 Speaker 9: That's the speech, So you should have these written down. Okay, great, 620 00:37:41,076 --> 00:37:46,876 Speaker 9: now we're going to do the negative speech. Switchbank color. 621 00:37:49,876 --> 00:37:52,476 Speaker 9: All right, I'm the negative and I disagree with everything 622 00:37:52,516 --> 00:37:55,716 Speaker 9: that guy said. He says three of hearts more like 623 00:37:55,836 --> 00:37:59,116 Speaker 9: the seven of diamonds. You know, people like to talk 624 00:37:59,116 --> 00:38:01,796 Speaker 9: about Jack of spades, but what they don't realize is 625 00:38:01,956 --> 00:38:05,916 Speaker 9: king of hearts. Ton of diamonds is okay, if you 626 00:38:05,956 --> 00:38:09,316 Speaker 9: don't remember that the Ace of Spades is there, and 627 00:38:09,356 --> 00:38:12,116 Speaker 9: as far as the Ace of Hearts goes, more like 628 00:38:12,156 --> 00:38:16,156 Speaker 9: the two of hearts. Finally, they brought up the nine 629 00:38:16,196 --> 00:38:20,316 Speaker 9: of spades, nine of spades, nine of seriously, because have 630 00:38:20,396 --> 00:38:24,556 Speaker 9: you never heard of the Queen of clubs? That's my 631 00:38:24,716 --> 00:38:27,956 Speaker 9: old speech. And I'm maybe unnecessarily aggressive here. 632 00:38:32,756 --> 00:38:36,116 Speaker 2: How did I do? I was terrible. I could keep 633 00:38:36,196 --> 00:38:38,676 Speaker 2: up for the first minute or so. Then I fell behind. 634 00:38:39,036 --> 00:38:43,876 Speaker 2: I miss things. Sisan gets up and talks about playing cards, 635 00:38:44,276 --> 00:38:45,196 Speaker 2: and I can't keep up. 636 00:38:45,796 --> 00:38:50,956 Speaker 7: I got I have a question for you? Is this hard? Oh? Yeah, 637 00:38:51,156 --> 00:38:52,196 Speaker 7: people have a question for you. 638 00:38:52,316 --> 00:38:52,676 Speaker 1: Is this hard? 639 00:38:53,036 --> 00:38:53,556 Speaker 13: Really hard? 640 00:38:53,756 --> 00:38:56,516 Speaker 7: This is really hard? And you guys are doing amazing. 641 00:38:56,556 --> 00:38:59,116 Speaker 7: I'll see it all over your face. This is frustrated. 642 00:38:59,276 --> 00:39:00,796 Speaker 7: You don't supposed to be an expert. I don't even 643 00:39:00,836 --> 00:39:02,356 Speaker 7: know what you said half the tom, and I'm been 644 00:39:02,356 --> 00:39:03,636 Speaker 7: doing this for a long tom. Alright. 645 00:39:03,836 --> 00:39:05,876 Speaker 2: This is what happened to me during the month debate. 646 00:39:06,596 --> 00:39:09,396 Speaker 2: I was taking notes, but I didn't know how to 647 00:39:09,436 --> 00:39:12,596 Speaker 2: take notes, So when Murray twisted the terms of the debate, 648 00:39:12,956 --> 00:39:15,836 Speaker 2: I just missed it. And when Tybee made that reference 649 00:39:15,876 --> 00:39:19,196 Speaker 2: to Walter Cronkite, I heard the name cronkite, but I 650 00:39:19,236 --> 00:39:23,356 Speaker 2: missed the context. Am I making excuses for myself? Of 651 00:39:23,396 --> 00:39:26,596 Speaker 2: course I am. But what debate tells us is that 652 00:39:26,596 --> 00:39:29,436 Speaker 2: the failure to listen is not a failure of will 653 00:39:29,916 --> 00:39:34,196 Speaker 2: or motivation or character. That's what we assume when there's 654 00:39:34,236 --> 00:39:38,276 Speaker 2: some breakdown in communication. If someone doesn't listen, we assume 655 00:39:38,716 --> 00:39:41,476 Speaker 2: they don't want to listen. We hear the yelling and 656 00:39:41,516 --> 00:39:44,076 Speaker 2: screaming on the internet, and we see it as evidence 657 00:39:44,316 --> 00:39:48,036 Speaker 2: of some great flaw in our society. But maybe, at 658 00:39:48,156 --> 00:39:50,676 Speaker 2: least some of the time, the person who doesn't listen 659 00:39:50,756 --> 00:39:53,716 Speaker 2: acts that way because they don't know how to listen. 660 00:39:54,276 --> 00:39:58,436 Speaker 2: They haven't practiced, they don't know where to start. Listening 661 00:39:58,876 --> 00:40:01,876 Speaker 2: is a skill like playing the piano or learning to cook. 662 00:40:02,476 --> 00:40:04,756 Speaker 2: I ask us, on how long would it take me 663 00:40:04,836 --> 00:40:07,516 Speaker 2: to listen the way he does, to learn how to flow? 664 00:40:08,116 --> 00:40:10,316 Speaker 9: I think if you really focus on it, a school year, 665 00:40:10,556 --> 00:40:14,036 Speaker 9: I think to be really comfortable with it, probably like 666 00:40:14,036 --> 00:40:18,076 Speaker 9: two school years. Yeah, yeah, and that's half of your 667 00:40:18,316 --> 00:40:22,036 Speaker 9: college competitive career, that's half of your high school competitive career. 668 00:40:24,436 --> 00:40:28,876 Speaker 2: A long time. But imagine if we did it, if 669 00:40:28,876 --> 00:40:32,236 Speaker 2: we all went to debate school, learn those lessons we're 670 00:40:32,276 --> 00:40:34,476 Speaker 2: able to say to ourselves in the middle of a 671 00:40:34,476 --> 00:40:38,636 Speaker 2: heated argument, this isn't about me. Learned how to avoid 672 00:40:38,676 --> 00:40:42,916 Speaker 2: Walter Cronkite's sized rabbit holes. Understood the debating is not 673 00:40:42,996 --> 00:40:51,556 Speaker 2: the art of talking, it's the art of listening. Oh 674 00:40:51,596 --> 00:40:54,076 Speaker 2: and maybe the most important lesson of all. Do you 675 00:40:54,116 --> 00:40:55,956 Speaker 2: know what they teach you to do at the Brooklyn 676 00:40:55,956 --> 00:40:59,876 Speaker 2: Debate League After the debate is over, after one side 677 00:40:59,876 --> 00:41:01,636 Speaker 2: has lost and the other has won. 678 00:41:03,276 --> 00:41:05,036 Speaker 7: All right, you guys, go to culture, tell each other 679 00:41:05,316 --> 00:41:06,716 Speaker 7: compliment why we love each other? 680 00:41:06,796 --> 00:41:09,076 Speaker 8: Go go go compliment? 681 00:41:09,476 --> 00:41:11,556 Speaker 7: Who shout out? Shout out, and. 682 00:41:11,556 --> 00:41:14,476 Speaker 2: All around the room the debaters shouted out happily to 683 00:41:14,556 --> 00:41:16,516 Speaker 2: each other. The idea of how do you just look 684 00:41:16,516 --> 00:41:16,956 Speaker 2: to that attitude? 685 00:41:16,956 --> 00:41:19,156 Speaker 8: Because attitude is in that one word believe is a 686 00:41:19,316 --> 00:41:22,116 Speaker 8: really strong word to use, which gave you such a 687 00:41:22,116 --> 00:41:23,836 Speaker 8: good lead may some arguments. 688 00:41:23,876 --> 00:41:25,716 Speaker 13: And I love how you be coming in like you 689 00:41:25,756 --> 00:41:28,556 Speaker 13: know what, your what your presence, like you're gonna clear 690 00:41:29,036 --> 00:41:31,076 Speaker 13: you know. So then it amps me up, Like when 691 00:41:31,076 --> 00:41:33,436 Speaker 13: you have like that attitude, it amps me up and 692 00:41:33,476 --> 00:41:34,716 Speaker 13: it makes me want to clear too. 693 00:41:34,876 --> 00:41:38,636 Speaker 9: So I like that. 694 00:41:41,716 --> 00:41:46,756 Speaker 2: Matt and Doug my Monk debate antagonists. I appreciate you 695 00:41:47,236 --> 00:41:50,196 Speaker 2: for forcing me to take what was spoiled and give 696 00:41:50,236 --> 00:41:56,156 Speaker 2: it new life. Now, one last question. So I I 697 00:41:56,196 --> 00:41:58,836 Speaker 2: approached you with this because, as I said, I had 698 00:41:58,836 --> 00:42:03,076 Speaker 2: this disastrous experience with the Monk debate, and I so 699 00:42:03,156 --> 00:42:05,356 Speaker 2: I wanted to use this opportunity to learn to be 700 00:42:05,396 --> 00:42:08,076 Speaker 2: a better debater. Do you think this is typical of me? 701 00:42:08,196 --> 00:42:12,036 Speaker 2: That I would am I a take spoil make style 702 00:42:12,236 --> 00:42:12,876 Speaker 2: kind of person. 703 00:42:12,956 --> 00:42:17,796 Speaker 5: In your mind, you are such a highly successful person 704 00:42:18,276 --> 00:42:22,436 Speaker 5: that one would not associate with you many occasions in 705 00:42:22,476 --> 00:42:24,716 Speaker 5: which you needed to do that. 706 00:42:24,716 --> 00:42:26,356 Speaker 2: That's just a much the fact that you. 707 00:42:28,076 --> 00:42:29,196 Speaker 5: I beg your pardon, I. 708 00:42:29,116 --> 00:42:31,556 Speaker 2: Said, that's just a mother speaking you. You will not 709 00:42:31,596 --> 00:42:34,476 Speaker 2: admit to any frailty on the part of your sons. 710 00:42:35,356 --> 00:42:38,756 Speaker 5: No, no, no, not only that I'm not aware of them, 711 00:42:38,796 --> 00:42:42,236 Speaker 5: but so so much. But the fact that you have 712 00:42:42,796 --> 00:42:49,316 Speaker 5: risen above in this is remarkable way justifies my my 713 00:42:49,436 --> 00:42:51,556 Speaker 5: faith in you and my confidence in you. 714 00:42:52,116 --> 00:43:09,076 Speaker 2: Oh that's what I meant by maternal reassurance. Revision says 715 00:43:09,116 --> 00:43:12,316 Speaker 2: Street is produced by ben Ada F. Hafrey, Leeman gistdou 716 00:43:12,676 --> 00:43:16,556 Speaker 2: Kiera Powell, and Jacob Smith. Fact checking by Kashaw Williams 717 00:43:16,596 --> 00:43:19,716 Speaker 2: and Tolly Emlin. We are edited by Julia Barton and 718 00:43:19,756 --> 00:43:24,196 Speaker 2: Peter Clowney. Original scoring by Luis Garra, mastering by Sarah Bruguier, 719 00:43:24,556 --> 00:43:29,716 Speaker 2: and engineering by Nina Lawrence. Twitter taunting by Nina Lawrence, Leeman, Gistou, 720 00:43:29,956 --> 00:43:34,236 Speaker 2: Justin Richmond, Ben Holliday, Emily Vaughan, and David jaw Special 721 00:43:34,276 --> 00:43:38,276 Speaker 2: thanks to the Unity Preparatory Charter School and Brooklyn Debate League. 722 00:43:38,796 --> 00:43:41,756 Speaker 2: If you're curious about the league and the fantastic coaches 723 00:43:41,796 --> 00:43:45,316 Speaker 2: behind it, keep an eye out for Jonathan Conyer's's forthcoming 724 00:43:45,356 --> 00:43:49,876 Speaker 2: memoir I Wasn't supposed to be here out this September. 725 00:43:50,516 --> 00:43:55,316 Speaker 2: Jonathan has incredible stories to tell, most of all special 726 00:43:55,316 --> 00:44:02,916 Speaker 2: thanks to my mom, Joyce Scleppo. I'm hersa