1 00:00:00,360 --> 00:00:03,440 Speaker 1: Your whole job is to be about like empathizing with 2 00:00:03,440 --> 00:00:05,600 Speaker 1: the human experience enough to be able to tell a 3 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:09,400 Speaker 1: story that resonates with people. And yet like here's a 4 00:00:09,440 --> 00:00:15,600 Speaker 1: real human being going like hey, hey, I'm over here, 5 00:00:16,480 --> 00:00:28,440 Speaker 1: call me, and no d ms are open, like there 6 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:30,120 Speaker 1: are No Girls on the Internet. As a production of 7 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:37,440 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio and Unbossed Creative, I'm Bridget Todd, and 8 00:00:37,479 --> 00:00:41,600 Speaker 1: this is there Are No Girls on the Internet. You're 9 00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:44,000 Speaker 1: listening to a brand new season of their No Girls 10 00:00:44,040 --> 00:00:46,040 Speaker 1: on the Internet. And if you've been with us at 11 00:00:46,080 --> 00:00:48,479 Speaker 1: the beginning, thank you so much for your support. It 12 00:00:48,479 --> 00:00:50,879 Speaker 1: means a lot. And if you're one of our new listeners, 13 00:00:51,040 --> 00:00:55,560 Speaker 1: We're so glad you're here. I'm Bridget Todd. I spend 14 00:00:55,640 --> 00:00:58,440 Speaker 1: an inordinate amount of time thinking about the Internet and 15 00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:00,760 Speaker 1: how we show up on it. We share parts of 16 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:03,680 Speaker 1: ourselves online. What gets lost by now? You know the 17 00:01:03,720 --> 00:01:06,440 Speaker 1: drill that nobody's online presence tells the full story of 18 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:09,160 Speaker 1: who they are. We're all creating a digital highlight reel 19 00:01:09,319 --> 00:01:11,840 Speaker 1: and none of it is really real. But what about 20 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:14,440 Speaker 1: the way is the Internet itself latins out who we 21 00:01:14,480 --> 00:01:18,720 Speaker 1: are and the full scope of our humanity? When you're 22 00:01:18,800 --> 00:01:21,399 Speaker 1: viewing them through a screen, It's easy to see people 23 00:01:21,440 --> 00:01:24,679 Speaker 1: as one dimensional caricatures, distortions of who they really are. 24 00:01:25,400 --> 00:01:27,840 Speaker 1: And if you think about your own online experience, I'm 25 00:01:27,880 --> 00:01:31,399 Speaker 1: sure you felt this one way or another. Now, imagine 26 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:34,160 Speaker 1: what that would be like as an exoner ee, exonerated 27 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:37,560 Speaker 1: for a high profile crime of which you were falsely accused. 28 00:01:38,600 --> 00:01:43,200 Speaker 1: That's Amanda Knox's reality. Amanda Knox, his name is still 29 00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:45,880 Speaker 1: synonymous with a crime that she did not commit, the 30 00:01:45,959 --> 00:01:48,880 Speaker 1: murder of her roommate Meredith Kircher by Rudy Gouday in 31 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:52,560 Speaker 1: Italy in two thousand seven. Amanda's spent almost four years 32 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:56,680 Speaker 1: in prison before being acquitted. Since her release from prison, 33 00:01:56,920 --> 00:01:59,640 Speaker 1: Amanda has worked to change the conversation around the criminal 34 00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:02,680 Speaker 1: justice system and the people caught up in it through writing, 35 00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:07,000 Speaker 1: advocacy and her podcast Labyrinths. But in an online landscape 36 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:10,280 Speaker 1: that profits from distorting people according to the most salacious 37 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:13,800 Speaker 1: stories attached to them, sure or not, Amanda continues to 38 00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:17,680 Speaker 1: be flattened into a Foxy Naxy caricature, the same caricature 39 00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:19,680 Speaker 1: that led to her being locked up for a crime 40 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:23,840 Speaker 1: that she didn't commit. Understandably, Amanda is particular about what 41 00:02:23,919 --> 00:02:27,119 Speaker 1: parts of herself she shares with the internet, for instance, 42 00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:31,120 Speaker 1: concerned her story would become fodder for tabloids and online trolls, 43 00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:34,280 Speaker 1: Amanda and her husband Chris waited to reveal to the 44 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:36,640 Speaker 1: world they were expecting their first child until she was 45 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:40,600 Speaker 1: already born. Soon after I gave birth, And of course 46 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:43,360 Speaker 1: I didn't immediately tell the world that I had given 47 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:47,120 Speaker 1: birth because I was I didn't want to emotionally and 48 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:52,480 Speaker 1: psychologically navigate the difficulty of tackling how the internet and 49 00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:55,320 Speaker 1: how the broader world was going to react to my 50 00:02:55,400 --> 00:02:59,600 Speaker 1: daughter um in those first weeks of having given birth, 51 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:03,800 Speaker 1: like I us needed to like be chill and secret 52 00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:07,000 Speaker 1: and hidden and no one to know. But of course 53 00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:10,040 Speaker 1: that means that no one knows, and I still have 54 00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:12,280 Speaker 1: to keep doing my job and responding to the world 55 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:16,240 Speaker 1: as if I don't have a two week old baby 56 00:03:16,880 --> 00:03:20,560 Speaker 1: that's keeping me up at night, news suckling on me constantly. 57 00:03:21,639 --> 00:03:26,400 Speaker 1: I loved how you chronicled your journey to become parents 58 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:29,320 Speaker 1: on Instagram. Did it have the desired effect you were 59 00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:32,360 Speaker 1: looking for, like like revealing it in that way where 60 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:35,320 Speaker 1: by the time you were like, oh, we're expecting your 61 00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:37,920 Speaker 1: child was actually already here, when it didn't have the 62 00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:40,560 Speaker 1: desired effects of just giving you all a little more 63 00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:43,600 Speaker 1: space to not have to wonder how the Internet would 64 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:46,680 Speaker 1: react to this, this change in your life. Yeah, and 65 00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:49,520 Speaker 1: then it also did um a sort of I started 66 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:51,520 Speaker 1: at a bait and switch kind of thing, like I 67 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:54,560 Speaker 1: was when I was doing when I was sort of 68 00:03:54,920 --> 00:03:58,320 Speaker 1: revealing on a daily basis, like week per week photos 69 00:03:58,480 --> 00:04:02,320 Speaker 1: on my Instagram. It sort of like giving that sense 70 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:05,360 Speaker 1: to my my followers, but also to like the greater 71 00:04:05,440 --> 00:04:07,680 Speaker 1: Internet in general, because of course I know that the 72 00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 1: tabloids are constantly scanning my Instagram in order to like steal, 73 00:04:11,880 --> 00:04:14,280 Speaker 1: you know, photos of me and strip them of context 74 00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:17,800 Speaker 1: and then vilify me. Like I was anticipating this um 75 00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:22,000 Speaker 1: and sort of addressing directly this feeling of like anticipation 76 00:04:22,080 --> 00:04:26,400 Speaker 1: and wanting more and wanting like acknowledging that, like, as 77 00:04:26,400 --> 00:04:29,080 Speaker 1: I'm getting bigger and bigger, it's very human and natural 78 00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:30,719 Speaker 1: to be like, oh my god, the baby's next, the 79 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:34,040 Speaker 1: baby's next. And then my goal at the very end 80 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:38,279 Speaker 1: of it was two show one image of my child 81 00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:42,839 Speaker 1: and explain why I was not going to be sharing 82 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:47,120 Speaker 1: any other photos of her on the internet because of 83 00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:50,720 Speaker 1: how I knew both the Internet to be a thing 84 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:54,200 Speaker 1: that maybe you should opt into instead of automatically put 85 00:04:54,200 --> 00:04:57,680 Speaker 1: into by your parents, but also because of how much 86 00:04:57,839 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 1: my own social media and internet life has been mined 87 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:08,080 Speaker 1: for content and mind for exploitation by tabloids, um, and 88 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:10,480 Speaker 1: I did not want to sort of offer my own 89 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:12,520 Speaker 1: daughter on a platter. And so I wanted to like 90 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:15,400 Speaker 1: give the sense of like, yes, we're all in it 91 00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:18,200 Speaker 1: together and we all are really excited. But also this 92 00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:20,840 Speaker 1: is why I'm sort of withholding something from you, And 93 00:05:20,839 --> 00:05:24,359 Speaker 1: I was hoping to make a point, um by revealing 94 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:27,240 Speaker 1: my pregnancy that way. Yeah, I mean, what is it 95 00:05:27,320 --> 00:05:30,440 Speaker 1: like to be Amanda Knox on the internet, Like, what 96 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:35,240 Speaker 1: is that experience like for you? Well, um, it means 97 00:05:35,279 --> 00:05:38,520 Speaker 1: that I am in You know, when I came home 98 00:05:38,560 --> 00:05:42,800 Speaker 1: from prison after I was first acquitted, I knew that 99 00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:46,359 Speaker 1: I was walking into a world where there would be 100 00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:49,640 Speaker 1: a version of me in people's minds no matter what. 101 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:54,200 Speaker 1: Like that's just a reality. Um. People heard of Foxy Knoxy. 102 00:05:54,279 --> 00:05:57,480 Speaker 1: Now they have a very clear idea of who I am. 103 00:05:57,520 --> 00:05:59,719 Speaker 1: Except it's not who I am. And so I'm going 104 00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:04,560 Speaker 1: to be perpetuating conversation with that like prejudice about me 105 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:08,800 Speaker 1: that as I'm walking through the world, and it made 106 00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:13,839 Speaker 1: me acutely aware of how much my identity as it 107 00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:17,760 Speaker 1: had been constructed, especially in the digital space, was not 108 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:21,920 Speaker 1: actually a product of my own making. And I think 109 00:06:21,960 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 1: this honestly is very, very true of everyone. We all 110 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:30,560 Speaker 1: aren't totally the authors of our identities, especially online. Um. 111 00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:32,240 Speaker 1: We like to think, I think we have this like 112 00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:35,440 Speaker 1: false sense of security that like, oh, my Instagram feed 113 00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:38,360 Speaker 1: is my own and oh, you know, when I present 114 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:41,480 Speaker 1: myself online, all people will understand what I mean when 115 00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:45,400 Speaker 1: I say a thing, And the reality is that's not true, 116 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:48,600 Speaker 1: and we all are facing certain kinds of prejudices as 117 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:52,240 Speaker 1: we encounter people, especially across the distance of the Internet. 118 00:06:52,440 --> 00:06:54,880 Speaker 1: As much as it brings us close, it also keeps 119 00:06:54,960 --> 00:06:59,000 Speaker 1: us distant from each other because we're not physically there. Um. 120 00:06:59,080 --> 00:07:02,440 Speaker 1: And so I feel like I have a unique perspective 121 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:07,520 Speaker 1: of like I feel like I have because I've been 122 00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:11,400 Speaker 1: such like pushed to such extremes through the Internet that 123 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:15,080 Speaker 1: had like utterly vilified and also like totally reached out 124 00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:17,560 Speaker 1: to by people like total random strangers who just say, 125 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:20,520 Speaker 1: oh my gosh, I'm so inspired by what you went 126 00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:22,680 Speaker 1: through and how you've dealt with it like I have. 127 00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:28,200 Speaker 1: I have personally felt all like and pushed against all 128 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:30,120 Speaker 1: of the edges of the Internet and the way that 129 00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:32,840 Speaker 1: it works. So I feel like I appreciate in a 130 00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:37,520 Speaker 1: sort of fine tuned way how the Internet works and 131 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:42,200 Speaker 1: how much of myself and therefore everyone else is a 132 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:48,880 Speaker 1: construct of these like interplaying, you know, impulses and um 133 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:52,000 Speaker 1: and that sense of ownership that really, really we have 134 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:55,800 Speaker 1: a false sense of ownership of ourselves online and we 135 00:07:55,840 --> 00:07:59,200 Speaker 1: really don't own ourselves online. Actually there's some a really 136 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:04,640 Speaker 1: interesting did you hear about the woman who was an artist? 137 00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:07,320 Speaker 1: Um and she had like you know, as an artist does. 138 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:09,920 Speaker 1: She has an Instagram account. I think it was called 139 00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:13,480 Speaker 1: the metaverse. Her Instagram goes go metaverse right, and like 140 00:08:14,040 --> 00:08:17,200 Speaker 1: Facebook decided, oh, we're the metaverse now, so we're just 141 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:22,360 Speaker 1: gonna delete you. And they have that power, which like 142 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:26,160 Speaker 1: again reinforces that sense of like, well do we own 143 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:30,560 Speaker 1: ourselves on the internet? Do we own ourselves on the internet? 144 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:33,560 Speaker 1: So w E b du Boy has this concept of 145 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:38,120 Speaker 1: double consciousness whereby black folks experience consciousness in two distinct 146 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:41,000 Speaker 1: ways at once. The way that we understand and see 147 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:44,040 Speaker 1: ourselves and the way that we are aware of being 148 00:08:44,080 --> 00:08:47,560 Speaker 1: seen by a white supremacist society. And I've always felt 149 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:50,920 Speaker 1: this concept was really useful, not just in navigating the 150 00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:53,640 Speaker 1: I r L world, but in navigating my own online 151 00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:57,520 Speaker 1: experiences as well. When I share myself online, I'm very 152 00:08:57,559 --> 00:09:00,920 Speaker 1: aware that it's a convergence of two consciousnesses, who I 153 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:03,760 Speaker 1: actually am and who people are perceiving me to be. 154 00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:06,840 Speaker 1: I don't even really consider my online persona to be me. 155 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:10,240 Speaker 1: I think of her as my avatar, a stand in 156 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:13,520 Speaker 1: for my digital experiences, completely distinct from the real me. 157 00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:17,840 Speaker 1: I spend a lot of time thinking about our digital 158 00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:20,960 Speaker 1: experiences and the experience of showing up online and just 159 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:23,800 Speaker 1: what that's like for us, and I often referred to 160 00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:26,760 Speaker 1: my online self as my avatar. You know, I don't 161 00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:29,560 Speaker 1: even see her as really myself. I see her as 162 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:32,440 Speaker 1: a stand in, and so I can only imagine what 163 00:09:32,559 --> 00:09:34,840 Speaker 1: that experience is like for us, this person who has 164 00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:38,680 Speaker 1: been vilified and really turned into a caricature. How you 165 00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:40,840 Speaker 1: might feel that there are these all these different competing 166 00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:43,080 Speaker 1: versions of yourself out in the world, but at the 167 00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:46,920 Speaker 1: same time really knowing you know, this isn't me, like 168 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:51,040 Speaker 1: having this composite, sketch version of yourself, of what people 169 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:54,679 Speaker 1: see you as, all these different projections of of people's 170 00:09:54,960 --> 00:09:57,440 Speaker 1: understandings of who you are or who they want you 171 00:09:57,480 --> 00:09:59,599 Speaker 1: to be or need you to be. When I was 172 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:01,959 Speaker 1: preparing for this interview, I was reading some headlines, and 173 00:10:02,240 --> 00:10:05,559 Speaker 1: there was this one tabloid story that had clearly taken 174 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:07,760 Speaker 1: a picture of you and your husband, maybe when you 175 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:10,920 Speaker 1: were out at a party or something. And there are 176 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:13,439 Speaker 1: so many pictures of you and your husband that anybody 177 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:16,600 Speaker 1: could use to accompany a story about you, but they 178 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:18,520 Speaker 1: had clearly gone out of their way to choose a 179 00:10:18,559 --> 00:10:21,480 Speaker 1: picture where y'all were at a party to kind of 180 00:10:21,520 --> 00:10:25,800 Speaker 1: add to this media created idea that y'all were weird. 181 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:27,680 Speaker 1: You know, It's like they went out of their way 182 00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:30,439 Speaker 1: to say, look at these two, aren't they weird? Look 183 00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:34,520 Speaker 1: at this weird picture. But it's like they chose the picture. 184 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:37,520 Speaker 1: This is obviously something that you wanted to use to 185 00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:40,040 Speaker 1: create to tell the story that you were trying to sell, 186 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:43,400 Speaker 1: and that story was these two are weirdos. And for you, 187 00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:46,600 Speaker 1: it must be so difficult to retain and protect your 188 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:49,240 Speaker 1: sense of self when there are so many forces out 189 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:52,760 Speaker 1: there projecting all of these competing, negative, out of context 190 00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:55,400 Speaker 1: versions of who they think you are or who they 191 00:10:55,440 --> 00:10:58,800 Speaker 1: want you to be or need you to be. M Yeah, no, 192 00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:02,400 Speaker 1: it's true, especially because and I think this is true 193 00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:04,920 Speaker 1: of other people as well. Like it's not like it 194 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:08,240 Speaker 1: just limits itself to the Internet space, Like it definitely 195 00:11:08,679 --> 00:11:13,440 Speaker 1: has repercussions in my actual real life. It makes it 196 00:11:13,559 --> 00:11:17,240 Speaker 1: so that it's difficult for me to make friends or 197 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:20,240 Speaker 1: to get a regular job. Like these are always that 198 00:11:20,760 --> 00:11:25,160 Speaker 1: the stigma of whatever that person, that that idea of 199 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:28,160 Speaker 1: me that's in someone else's mind impacts me on a 200 00:11:28,520 --> 00:11:32,040 Speaker 1: on an actual level. Like I actually went to prison 201 00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:35,960 Speaker 1: because people were, you know, cherry picking um moments of 202 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:39,280 Speaker 1: my life and portraying them in the worst possible light. 203 00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:42,679 Speaker 1: And like I went to actual prison for that. So 204 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:46,160 Speaker 1: like and you know, to this day, you know, I'm 205 00:11:46,160 --> 00:11:49,280 Speaker 1: not being put in a jail cell because of people 206 00:11:49,320 --> 00:11:51,600 Speaker 1: talking badly about me on the internet and portraying me 207 00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:55,800 Speaker 1: as a weird person. But it does mean that, you know, 208 00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:58,880 Speaker 1: if I go and take a meeting with someone, I'm wondering, 209 00:11:58,920 --> 00:12:01,079 Speaker 1: are they taking a meeting with me because they want 210 00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:03,200 Speaker 1: to see how weird I am? Or they want to, 211 00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:06,440 Speaker 1: you know, or are they actually seriously interested in my 212 00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:09,200 Speaker 1: professional work? Do they even know about my professional work? 213 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:12,800 Speaker 1: Because of course the tabloids are really happy to tell 214 00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:15,720 Speaker 1: stories about me going to parties, but they don't ever 215 00:12:15,880 --> 00:12:18,600 Speaker 1: talk about the work that I do because that doesn't 216 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:22,640 Speaker 1: go with their story. So I don't know. Like it's 217 00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:28,920 Speaker 1: made me acutely aware of how powerful storytelling is, and 218 00:12:29,080 --> 00:12:33,160 Speaker 1: it's made me think about, like, well, who is allowed 219 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:38,079 Speaker 1: to tell stories? And what what stories are they telling us? 220 00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:43,640 Speaker 1: And how are we complicit in them the choices they 221 00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:49,600 Speaker 1: are making as storytellers in selling us a product. Let's 222 00:12:49,640 --> 00:13:05,080 Speaker 1: a clipbreak at her back. Last year, Amanda spoke out 223 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:08,000 Speaker 1: about the film Still Water, which stars mcnaman as a 224 00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:10,720 Speaker 1: father who travels to Europe to see his daughter, who 225 00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 1: has been in prison for the murder of her roommate 226 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:15,400 Speaker 1: and lover in France. There's going to be a spoiler 227 00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:18,480 Speaker 1: for the film in just a Moment. Director Tom McCarthy 228 00:13:18,520 --> 00:13:22,520 Speaker 1: said he was quote inspired by Amanda's experience. I was 229 00:13:22,559 --> 00:13:25,680 Speaker 1: pretty fascinated with the Amanda Knox case back a long 230 00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:28,800 Speaker 1: time ago and did a pretty deep dive into it. Okay, 231 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:32,320 Speaker 1: so here's the spoiler in the film, the character inspired 232 00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:35,360 Speaker 1: by Amanda is revealed to have been withholding relevant information 233 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:37,800 Speaker 1: about the murder that she has not shared with authorities. 234 00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:40,720 Speaker 1: That she paid the man who actually killed her roommate 235 00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:43,760 Speaker 1: and told him to get rid of her, but it 236 00:13:43,840 --> 00:13:46,120 Speaker 1: was a miscommunication. She meant to throw her out of 237 00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:50,160 Speaker 1: the apartment, not murder her. Amanda says this isn't so 238 00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:53,599 Speaker 1: much a fictionalization as it is trafficking in a specific 239 00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:57,040 Speaker 1: falsehood that still persists all these years later, that even 240 00:13:57,080 --> 00:14:00,040 Speaker 1: if she didn't actually kill Meredith Kircher, she must have 241 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:03,040 Speaker 1: been involved in some way. On medium in a piece 242 00:14:03,040 --> 00:14:06,599 Speaker 1: called who Owns My Name, Amanda rights, I continue to 243 00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:10,640 Speaker 1: be accused of knowing something I'm not revealing, of having 244 00:14:10,679 --> 00:14:13,240 Speaker 1: been involved, even if I didn't plunge the knife. So 245 00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:17,040 Speaker 1: Tom McCarthy's fictionalized version of me, it's just a tabloid, 246 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:21,840 Speaker 1: conspiracy guiltier version of me. By fictionalizing away my innocence, 247 00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:25,160 Speaker 1: my total lack of involvement, by erasing the role of 248 00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:29,280 Speaker 1: the authorities, and my wrongful conviction, McCarthy reinforces an image 249 00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:32,440 Speaker 1: of me as a guilty and untrustworthy person, and with 250 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:36,040 Speaker 1: Matt Damon Starpower. Both are sure of profit handsomely off 251 00:14:36,040 --> 00:14:40,120 Speaker 1: of this fictionalization of the Amanda No saga that is 252 00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:43,240 Speaker 1: sure to leave plenty of yours wondering maybe the real 253 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:47,240 Speaker 1: life Amanda was involved somehow. Yeah, I mean that was 254 00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:49,040 Speaker 1: one of the reasons I was so interested to talk 255 00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:52,360 Speaker 1: to you today, um your tweets about the film Still Water. 256 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:56,080 Speaker 1: You know, I had never really thought about the idea 257 00:14:56,120 --> 00:14:58,960 Speaker 1: of profit, right, So who not just who is telling 258 00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:02,000 Speaker 1: someone else's story, but who was making money off of it? 259 00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:05,880 Speaker 1: And it seems to me that so many different Hollywood 260 00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:10,800 Speaker 1: executives and actors, etcetera, etcetera, are it's okay for them 261 00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:16,000 Speaker 1: to tell this like deeply fictionalized story about that purports 262 00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:18,240 Speaker 1: to be about your life and make money from it. 263 00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:20,800 Speaker 1: And it's like everyone else, it seems like everyone else 264 00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:24,720 Speaker 1: is allowed to a tell your story and then profit 265 00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:27,400 Speaker 1: from it except for you. You know what is that 266 00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:32,360 Speaker 1: like to to experience? Well, it's so surreal that most 267 00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:35,760 Speaker 1: people just assume that I am profiting off it, right, 268 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:37,520 Speaker 1: Like the number of people who reached out to me 269 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:41,160 Speaker 1: to be like, oh, congratulations on Stillwaters. So great that 270 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:44,920 Speaker 1: you're getting another project, and it's like Nope, nope, no one, 271 00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:47,920 Speaker 1: uh no one talked to me about that, like I 272 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:50,440 Speaker 1: have nothing to do with that, and um no, I 273 00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:53,080 Speaker 1: am in no way benefiting from and in fact, I 274 00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:56,200 Speaker 1: am just bearing the cost of whatever story they liked 275 00:15:56,320 --> 00:16:00,760 Speaker 1: to tell about me this time. So, and you know, 276 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:04,240 Speaker 1: thinking about the Netflix documentary, this is something that I 277 00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:07,560 Speaker 1: thought was some interesting where the billmakers reached after you 278 00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:11,200 Speaker 1: and they said, we are not in We only want 279 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:13,440 Speaker 1: to tell this story if you are part of that 280 00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:17,640 Speaker 1: storytelling process. I can imagine folks coming to you and saying, listen, 281 00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:20,320 Speaker 1: we're gonna tell this story whether you want me to 282 00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:22,160 Speaker 1: tell it or not. So you've got to decide whether 283 00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:24,760 Speaker 1: we're telling it for you or if you're going to 284 00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:26,680 Speaker 1: be a participant. And it almost kind of feels like 285 00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:29,120 Speaker 1: a shakedown, you know, And it's like, oh, it totally is. 286 00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:32,160 Speaker 1: How can we get to a place where like, you're 287 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:37,400 Speaker 1: not being shaken down to be forced to participate against 288 00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:39,480 Speaker 1: your will in a story that is meant to be 289 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:41,760 Speaker 1: about you? I mean, I just like I can't even 290 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:44,320 Speaker 1: imagine what that must be like to experience and how 291 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:48,080 Speaker 1: difficult that must be to navigate. Yeah, and and again 292 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:50,600 Speaker 1: it's not just a thing that happens to me, like 293 00:16:50,680 --> 00:16:52,640 Speaker 1: it happens to a lot of people, a lot of 294 00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:56,000 Speaker 1: like you know, agnorees, wrongfully convicted people come out of 295 00:16:56,040 --> 00:16:59,560 Speaker 1: prison and they're told, if you don't tell your story 296 00:16:59,640 --> 00:17:01,560 Speaker 1: right now out to us, like you're never going to 297 00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:03,800 Speaker 1: have another chance, and no one's ever gonna believe you. 298 00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:06,359 Speaker 1: And of course you're walking out of prison, you know 299 00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:09,359 Speaker 1: you've been exonerated, but you're still carrying the stigma of 300 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:11,920 Speaker 1: the accusation. You still are trying to like figure out 301 00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:15,080 Speaker 1: how to get back on your feet, and you like 302 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:18,000 Speaker 1: to be put on the spot and asked to process 303 00:17:18,080 --> 00:17:22,320 Speaker 1: the worst experience of your life for someone else's entertainment 304 00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:25,920 Speaker 1: product is and like the I guess, like what I 305 00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:29,200 Speaker 1: was hoping to do by writing that essay for The Atlantic, 306 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:31,640 Speaker 1: and you know, doing like the tweets about still Water 307 00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:35,400 Speaker 1: in particular, was because I wanted to point out that 308 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:38,240 Speaker 1: this is a way that we are treating real human 309 00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:40,360 Speaker 1: beings without And I don't know if the people who 310 00:17:40,359 --> 00:17:43,560 Speaker 1: are doing it realize what the human cost is because 311 00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:46,679 Speaker 1: they're in their own little like echo chamber journalists and 312 00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:48,800 Speaker 1: are in their echo chamber and they're thinking, well, I 313 00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:50,159 Speaker 1: have to get the scoop, and if I don't get 314 00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:51,520 Speaker 1: the scoop, now, I'm going to move on to the 315 00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:54,240 Speaker 1: next story and try to get that scoop or the 316 00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:57,840 Speaker 1: you know, the Hollywood filmmakers are thinking, Oh, well, I'm 317 00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:00,960 Speaker 1: just going to like be inspired something that happened in 318 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:02,600 Speaker 1: real life, and then I'm just going to let the 319 00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:04,840 Speaker 1: writer's room do what it does. And that's just how 320 00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:07,960 Speaker 1: stories are made. And and why would someone who is 321 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:11,040 Speaker 1: my inspiration feel any kind of ownership over that? It's 322 00:18:11,119 --> 00:18:14,080 Speaker 1: my art? And it's like, well, did you did you 323 00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:18,359 Speaker 1: pause to think how this was going to impact the 324 00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:22,600 Speaker 1: human being who is your purported source or inspiration? Like 325 00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:29,000 Speaker 1: do you as a storyteller, as someone who is sharing information, oh, 326 00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:32,520 Speaker 1: the person who is the source of that inspiration or 327 00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:35,719 Speaker 1: your story anything? And that's a that's a question, Like 328 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:39,920 Speaker 1: I'm asking the question, and I'm offering a new perspective, 329 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:42,520 Speaker 1: which is, well, maybe you didn't think about this before, 330 00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:46,359 Speaker 1: but here's how it's impacted me. Here's how when you 331 00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:49,120 Speaker 1: keep telling a story over and over and over again 332 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:53,760 Speaker 1: about a girl on girl sex crime, you are actually 333 00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:57,960 Speaker 1: misrepresenting what happened to my roommate who was raped and 334 00:18:58,040 --> 00:19:01,560 Speaker 1: murdered by a man and me who had no part 335 00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:05,280 Speaker 1: in a girl on girl sex crime. So do you 336 00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:08,760 Speaker 1: do you understand that when you keep telling that story 337 00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:11,919 Speaker 1: over and over again, that is what ends up being 338 00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:16,800 Speaker 1: the definitive story about me, whether you intended that or not. 339 00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:20,240 Speaker 1: And do you understand that that's also what's happening to 340 00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:23,720 Speaker 1: people who are even more disempowered than me, Because I 341 00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:25,720 Speaker 1: can't tell you the number of people that I've tried 342 00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:28,879 Speaker 1: to um advise and who've reached out to me saying 343 00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:33,360 Speaker 1: there's only one person who's ever interested, like been interested 344 00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:36,120 Speaker 1: in my story. And I don't know if I trust them? 345 00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:39,040 Speaker 1: Should I trust them? Is this my only chance to 346 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:40,960 Speaker 1: tell my story? I don't know if I'm ready yet, 347 00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:43,080 Speaker 1: but they're telling me that I have to do it tomorrow, 348 00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:45,360 Speaker 1: and if I don't do it, like these are all 349 00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:48,359 Speaker 1: huge red flags for me that are just showing how 350 00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:54,520 Speaker 1: like other people's lives are being taken from them in 351 00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:57,080 Speaker 1: various different ways. And the last thing I want to 352 00:19:57,119 --> 00:20:00,520 Speaker 1: see for someone who's just spent year us in prison 353 00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:04,120 Speaker 1: for something they didn't do is for them to feel like, 354 00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:07,400 Speaker 1: oh now my story is being stolen again from me. 355 00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:12,240 Speaker 1: But in a whole new way we owe exonorees, and 356 00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:16,359 Speaker 1: they wrongly convicted so much better, like they deserve so 357 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:23,320 Speaker 1: much better than as soon as they're out being put 358 00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:27,040 Speaker 1: in these situations where they can be I mean, they're 359 00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:30,080 Speaker 1: already so vulnerable they deserve they don't deserve this, and 360 00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:33,040 Speaker 1: I have to I mean, do you think it's possible 361 00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:36,760 Speaker 1: to have a different kind of media landscape for axonorees 362 00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:39,840 Speaker 1: where where they don't feel like they have to immediately 363 00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:44,520 Speaker 1: continuously retell this traumatic thing that happened to them or else, 364 00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:47,200 Speaker 1: you know, maybe the tabloids will make up their own 365 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:49,240 Speaker 1: story about what happened. You know, did you do you 366 00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:52,360 Speaker 1: believe in a world where a different kind of landscape 367 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:56,040 Speaker 1: as possible for these folks? I mean, sure, I'm trying 368 00:20:56,080 --> 00:20:59,440 Speaker 1: to invent it along the way, um, but I think 369 00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:02,000 Speaker 1: that like the thing that I'm sort of experimenting with 370 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:05,280 Speaker 1: with my own journalism and my own podcast Labyrinths, is 371 00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:10,440 Speaker 1: this sort of more like collaborative experience between the storyteller 372 00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:14,439 Speaker 1: and their subject, Because I think that there's been this 373 00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:18,760 Speaker 1: longstanding perspective that if you are at the center of 374 00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:23,600 Speaker 1: your own story, you can't have a storyteller's perspective of 375 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:27,880 Speaker 1: that story. Like you you, you can't have authorship over 376 00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:30,879 Speaker 1: your own story because you're going to be biased or 377 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:33,840 Speaker 1: you're going to misrepresent things, and you can't be objective. 378 00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:36,680 Speaker 1: But first of all, I want to point out that 379 00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:42,080 Speaker 1: the storyteller is not by definition objective. Just because they 380 00:21:42,119 --> 00:21:46,000 Speaker 1: aren't personally in the story doesn't mean that by telling 381 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:48,760 Speaker 1: the story, they aren't putting themselves in the story, and 382 00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:53,240 Speaker 1: they aren't approaching that story from a certain perspective. And 383 00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:56,560 Speaker 1: it's also totally discrediting the idea that someone who's at 384 00:21:56,560 --> 00:21:59,720 Speaker 1: the center of their own story might have a valuable 385 00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:04,639 Speaker 1: perspective about it, like they might, having had felt this 386 00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:09,800 Speaker 1: human experience firsthand, have some interesting human things to say 387 00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:13,760 Speaker 1: that is worth being a part of the story. So 388 00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:17,080 Speaker 1: I'm just trying to like convey that, Yeah, not all 389 00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:22,639 Speaker 1: of us are are professional storytellers, but professional storytellers can 390 00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:27,160 Speaker 1: help people tell their own stories. And of course everyone 391 00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:29,600 Speaker 1: should be held accountable to the truth, like as long 392 00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:33,159 Speaker 1: as we're not like making up crazy you know, conspiracy 393 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:36,520 Speaker 1: theories to account for non evidence, Like you know, evidence 394 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:40,320 Speaker 1: still matters in the truth still matters. But it's okay 395 00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:44,080 Speaker 1: for you to give like as a storyteller to offer 396 00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:48,080 Speaker 1: someone the opportunity to voice their own experience and that's 397 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:52,040 Speaker 1: still a valuable story. Oh absolutely, you know, we're all 398 00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:55,840 Speaker 1: experts in our own experiences. And I hate this myth 399 00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:59,520 Speaker 1: of objectivity that if you're close to a story or 400 00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:02,199 Speaker 1: it's happening to you or put to your community, you 401 00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:05,040 Speaker 1: couldn't possibly be objective. I feel like it's really, at 402 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:07,440 Speaker 1: least in journalism, I feel like it's really been used 403 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:13,560 Speaker 1: to create a really like sexist, racist, classist narrative that like, 404 00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:17,360 Speaker 1: oh it is straight white men who are objective. Everybody 405 00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:19,680 Speaker 1: else is just gonna be biased. You shouldn't even list, 406 00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:22,199 Speaker 1: like they're not going to be a reliable source of 407 00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:24,800 Speaker 1: something that happened to them or their community. And it 408 00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:27,560 Speaker 1: just really erasist the fact that like people know what's 409 00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:30,840 Speaker 1: up with themselves. People know people are Like give people 410 00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:33,040 Speaker 1: the space to be experts in their own experiences and 411 00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:35,679 Speaker 1: their own stories, and don't pretend that you don't have 412 00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:38,760 Speaker 1: your own baggage that you're bringing to the story by 413 00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:42,679 Speaker 1: who being whoever you are exactly, you know, So just 414 00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:46,240 Speaker 1: take ownership of like be self aware, like do enough 415 00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:48,800 Speaker 1: like self auditing to be aware that maybe I might 416 00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:51,760 Speaker 1: be approaching this story or that story from a certain perspective, 417 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:55,960 Speaker 1: and let that be like acknowledge that in your own 418 00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:59,680 Speaker 1: storytelling process, and as you are encountering the person, because 419 00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:02,520 Speaker 1: they might be coming from a whole, completely new perspective 420 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:05,920 Speaker 1: that you don't have access to. And if you are 421 00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:09,720 Speaker 1: automatically defining yourself as the objective party and them is 422 00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:14,040 Speaker 1: the subjective party, you are automatically making like doing a 423 00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:18,639 Speaker 1: hierarchy of whose prejudice and whose bias counts more than another's. 424 00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:23,280 Speaker 1: I find it interesting that your story is not often 425 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:26,840 Speaker 1: framed as a story of someone who was wrongfully convicted 426 00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:30,320 Speaker 1: and then exonerated, right. I think there's probably so many 427 00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:33,960 Speaker 1: people out there who like think they know the Amanda 428 00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:37,600 Speaker 1: Knock story, you know, heavy scare quotes, but they probably, 429 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:41,560 Speaker 1: you know, don't know Meredith Kercher's name. They probably don't 430 00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:45,400 Speaker 1: know the name of the Italian prosecutors who like bungled 431 00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:47,400 Speaker 1: this case. They don't know the name of the actual 432 00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:50,879 Speaker 1: guilty party. And it's just so interesting to me how 433 00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:56,440 Speaker 1: what you went through obviously you like was a huge 434 00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:58,720 Speaker 1: part of your life, but the way that that story 435 00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:02,600 Speaker 1: is told off then I don't know it at the 436 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:06,840 Speaker 1: same time denies agency of the actual major players of 437 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:11,600 Speaker 1: what happened to your roommate while also giving you this 438 00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:15,280 Speaker 1: like outsized role in that story. It's like, like, why 439 00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:20,080 Speaker 1: aren't why aren't these other hugely like huge major parties 440 00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:22,320 Speaker 1: of what happened? Why are they not household names? Why 441 00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:24,159 Speaker 1: are they not the names that are like connected to 442 00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:26,560 Speaker 1: what happened there? Why is it just you who like 443 00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:30,359 Speaker 1: actually was kind of like it's not like side character 444 00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:33,360 Speaker 1: and all of that. Yeah, That's one of the things 445 00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:35,679 Speaker 1: that I've always like pushed back against with people is 446 00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:39,440 Speaker 1: like when you when you think Amanda Knox, the first 447 00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:43,000 Speaker 1: thing that you think of is murder, because that's you know, 448 00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:47,200 Speaker 1: that's ultimately what it comes down to, Amanda Knox, murder 449 00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:51,400 Speaker 1: and my stuff. Like I have never witnessed a murder. 450 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:53,760 Speaker 1: I've never participated in murder. I've never been you know, 451 00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:58,360 Speaker 1: the the closest I've been to murder is I maybe 452 00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:00,960 Speaker 1: what could have been murdered that And if I hadn't 453 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:03,280 Speaker 1: met raphael A five days earlier and was spending the 454 00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:07,840 Speaker 1: night at his house, Like that's that's my experience of murder. 455 00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:13,800 Speaker 1: And the fact that that action, that horrific action that 456 00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:16,720 Speaker 1: that happened to first of all, my friend Meredith, who 457 00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:19,680 Speaker 1: is the victim, and people don't remember her. The fact 458 00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:23,640 Speaker 1: that that action is not actually prescribed to her murderer 459 00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:26,000 Speaker 1: and instead people think of me when they think of 460 00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:29,640 Speaker 1: her murder. That just goes to show that it really 461 00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:31,679 Speaker 1: does matter what you call a thing. And when you 462 00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:35,480 Speaker 1: call Meredith Kircher's murder the Amanda NOx saga, you're doing 463 00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:38,840 Speaker 1: a disservice to the truth because I played no role 464 00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:42,320 Speaker 1: in that. My the Amanda NOx saga for me is 465 00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:45,280 Speaker 1: I'm on trial for something I didn't do, and now 466 00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:47,679 Speaker 1: I'm trying to reclaim my life in a world that 467 00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:50,399 Speaker 1: doesn't want me to reclaim my life, you know, Like 468 00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:55,919 Speaker 1: that's that's my experience. Um, but like I it drives 469 00:26:55,960 --> 00:27:00,560 Speaker 1: me crazy that it's it's so so often that the 470 00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:05,480 Speaker 1: person who actually committed this crime is referred to as 471 00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:08,800 Speaker 1: an afterthought, like he's either not named at all, he's 472 00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:12,240 Speaker 1: called the other guy who was accused, you know whatever, 473 00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:15,879 Speaker 1: Like no one cares about that. And it's and to 474 00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:18,720 Speaker 1: me that conveys that like people don't actually really care 475 00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:21,720 Speaker 1: about what happened to Meredith. They care about the scandal, 476 00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:26,800 Speaker 1: and they care about the sexiness that they can you know, portray, 477 00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:32,240 Speaker 1: you know, project onto, Like the sexy idea is what 478 00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:36,680 Speaker 1: resonates with people more than the actual human experience. Yeah, 479 00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:39,359 Speaker 1: and I just it's impossible to not see all the 480 00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:42,679 Speaker 1: ways that you've become this character. So either it's like 481 00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:49,560 Speaker 1: she's weird or she's like American loud mouth or like 482 00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:52,680 Speaker 1: a temptress. It's like you kind of become this thing, 483 00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:56,240 Speaker 1: that this character that anybody can project whatever they want onto, 484 00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:58,840 Speaker 1: and it doesn't like who you actually are as a 485 00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:01,560 Speaker 1: human who went through been traumatic. It's just bond in 486 00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:06,080 Speaker 1: the conversation. Yeah. Yeah, and and then you know, even 487 00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:08,600 Speaker 1: when i'm you know, it's found out that I'm innocent, 488 00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:13,639 Speaker 1: and I'm I'm held fully innocent. Um the again that 489 00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:17,159 Speaker 1: like mystique of who is Amanda Ox really it's like, well, 490 00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:20,600 Speaker 1: here's an idea, like I have a podcast where I 491 00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:23,959 Speaker 1: talk really openly about all my ideas and all my experiences. 492 00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:27,320 Speaker 1: Have you considered listening to that? No? No, of course not, 493 00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:30,320 Speaker 1: because then Amanda is actually authoring her own experience. We 494 00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:32,359 Speaker 1: want to talk about her, We don't actually want to 495 00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:37,400 Speaker 1: talk to her and it's it's just like, I mean, 496 00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:40,680 Speaker 1: you aren't obviously you're talking to me, and I greatly 497 00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:45,680 Speaker 1: appreciate that because, honestly, like, what a freaking gift in 498 00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:48,800 Speaker 1: the world to just talk to another human being, like 499 00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:51,320 Speaker 1: a real person. Like I can't tell you enough how 500 00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:53,240 Speaker 1: much it means to me that you reach out to 501 00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:57,240 Speaker 1: me and say I actually care about what your experiences. 502 00:28:57,800 --> 00:28:59,720 Speaker 1: I you know, I don't want to just talk about you. 503 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:03,080 Speaker 1: I want to talk to you, like, thank you for that. 504 00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:06,160 Speaker 1: It means a lot. I mean, I deeply appreciate that. 505 00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:09,840 Speaker 1: I really do. But again, like when the Stillwater conversation 506 00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:12,520 Speaker 1: was happening, I think something that was so frustrating is 507 00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:14,960 Speaker 1: it's not like you're not like you, Yeah, you have 508 00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:18,440 Speaker 1: a great podcast that's critically acclaimed, you have a huge 509 00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:21,200 Speaker 1: body of work. The fact that they wouldn't even reach 510 00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:24,320 Speaker 1: out to you, like I just randomly DMD you on 511 00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:26,200 Speaker 1: Twitter and you replied, It's not like it was hard. 512 00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:29,160 Speaker 1: I'm one person who made the podcast out of my kitchen, right, 513 00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:34,280 Speaker 1: It's not like you're making it difficult to find yourself 514 00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:36,520 Speaker 1: or and it's not it's not like you're not having 515 00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:39,560 Speaker 1: these public conversations about who you are and your story 516 00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:42,080 Speaker 1: and your experience, and I think it is people just 517 00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:45,720 Speaker 1: don't want to hear it. It's it's it's more gratifying 518 00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:48,400 Speaker 1: to talk about you than it is to give you 519 00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:51,360 Speaker 1: space to talk about your experiences. And I think that's 520 00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:54,040 Speaker 1: so clear. I don't think people. I just think that 521 00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:57,240 Speaker 1: people are just really wrapped up in the story they 522 00:29:57,240 --> 00:29:59,600 Speaker 1: have in their head and retelling that over and over again. 523 00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:02,240 Speaker 1: And I really appreciate it that you pointed out that 524 00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:06,920 Speaker 1: that film, they weren't just fictionalizing it. They were kind 525 00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:12,600 Speaker 1: of parroting the salacious, you know, girl on girl sex 526 00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:17,480 Speaker 1: crime like lie that that was told to have you 527 00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:19,760 Speaker 1: locked up for so many years. And that's not a 528 00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:23,840 Speaker 1: political that's not neutral, that's not fictionalizing something that was 529 00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:27,479 Speaker 1: not Like it's different too. I guess. I feel like 530 00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:30,920 Speaker 1: the fact that they relied on what was the dominant 531 00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:35,120 Speaker 1: narrative that led to you being falsely imprisoned is so hurtful, 532 00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:39,040 Speaker 1: but also like deeply political and not neutral, Like that's 533 00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:42,360 Speaker 1: a real choice and to not even acknowledge or deal 534 00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:45,800 Speaker 1: with that again is a real you know, just a 535 00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:48,400 Speaker 1: real choice like that that did. I guess I didn't 536 00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:51,600 Speaker 1: like how in that interview, I think it was Matt Damon. 537 00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:54,440 Speaker 1: He was like, oh, well, you know, we got to 538 00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:57,040 Speaker 1: thinking like what if it was like this, and it's like, no, 539 00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:00,920 Speaker 1: you just you just parroted the incorrect lie that le 540 00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:04,320 Speaker 1: to you being falsely imprisoned. Yeah. No, they it was 541 00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:06,880 Speaker 1: just lazy storytelling on their part, like they were like, oh, 542 00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:09,600 Speaker 1: we're inventing things, and it's like, you didn't invent ship 543 00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:14,200 Speaker 1: my friend. Good job, you invented France as opposed to Italy, 544 00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:20,920 Speaker 1: Like good jobs. It's lazy. It's lazy. Yeah, and it's 545 00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:24,400 Speaker 1: too bad because like, honestly, again, my position and all 546 00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:27,200 Speaker 1: of this has been I'm really easy to talk to 547 00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:29,280 Speaker 1: and I'm actually like, I think we could have a 548 00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:33,400 Speaker 1: really worthwhile conversation here. I feel like maybe I was overlooked, 549 00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:36,360 Speaker 1: but like here's an opportunity to not overlook me and 550 00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:40,720 Speaker 1: that's okay, Like let's talk about that and nothing just crickets, 551 00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:46,160 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, nothing nothing. Yeah, it's you know, they're they've 552 00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:49,720 Speaker 1: moved on to the next story and it doesn't matter 553 00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:53,240 Speaker 1: that there are repercussions in my life. So I mean 554 00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:57,200 Speaker 1: it's just insane, Like how like how removed do you have? 555 00:31:57,320 --> 00:32:00,360 Speaker 1: Like your storyteller. Your whole job is to be about 556 00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:03,440 Speaker 1: like empathizing with the human experience enough to be able 557 00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:06,880 Speaker 1: to tell a story that resonates with people. And yet 558 00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:12,560 Speaker 1: like here's a real human being going like hey, hey, 559 00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:20,280 Speaker 1: I'm over here, call me and no d ms are open, 560 00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:28,440 Speaker 1: Like I'm really nice. I don't know, it's it's um 561 00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:32,000 Speaker 1: it's a fascinating experience. And I feel like, again, it's 562 00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:35,760 Speaker 1: it seems like it's this weird, extreme thing because it's 563 00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:38,920 Speaker 1: not every day that you know, someone's life has turned 564 00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:43,120 Speaker 1: into a Hollywood movie. But I feel like there are 565 00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:47,400 Speaker 1: versions of this that happen all the time to people 566 00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:50,520 Speaker 1: all the time. What story is being told about you 567 00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:54,080 Speaker 1: and what circumstance by whom and how are they not 568 00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:57,080 Speaker 1: allowing you to be a part of the conversation Like 569 00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:00,840 Speaker 1: that that happens all the time to lots of people. 570 00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:02,960 Speaker 1: And it's something that I always have a little bit 571 00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:05,920 Speaker 1: of a red flag for because it just seems like 572 00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:10,680 Speaker 1: it's it's wanna it's it's gas lighting. Honestly, it's when 573 00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:17,800 Speaker 1: you're not allowed two have a voice in the story 574 00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:22,520 Speaker 1: that defines who you are. It you basically are being 575 00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:25,800 Speaker 1: told by the rest of the world that you don't 576 00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:29,640 Speaker 1: you don't matter, and your perspective doesn't matter. And we're 577 00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:31,239 Speaker 1: going to tell you who you are and what you 578 00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:37,520 Speaker 1: mean and why you matter. More. After a quick break, 579 00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:51,360 Speaker 1: let's get right back into it. Who gets to have 580 00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:54,120 Speaker 1: a say in their own story in a media moment 581 00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:56,040 Speaker 1: where we're looking back on the way that women from 582 00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:59,960 Speaker 1: Pamula Anderson to Monica Levinsky were unfairly maligned by society. 583 00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:02,840 Speaker 1: It's a question worth asking, And at first reached out 584 00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:04,640 Speaker 1: to Amanda because I saw her tweets about the New 585 00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:08,880 Speaker 1: York Times documentary Framing Britney Spears. Now, she wasn't condemning 586 00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:12,840 Speaker 1: the film or the filmmakers, but rather posing a complex question. 587 00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:17,000 Speaker 1: She tweeted, with all these new Britney Spears documentaries out, 588 00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:20,040 Speaker 1: I'm asking myself, did Brittany participate in any of them? 589 00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:23,280 Speaker 1: Did she consent to them? Did she want them to exist? 590 00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:27,120 Speaker 1: Does anyone care? The answer to the first two questions 591 00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:30,280 Speaker 1: is no, she did not participate or grant her approval. 592 00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:33,400 Speaker 1: And while I'm sure the documentary filmmakers would have preferred 593 00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:36,040 Speaker 1: that she gave them her approval, when she didn't, they 594 00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:40,640 Speaker 1: plowed ahead anyway. Is that okay. She goes on to say, 595 00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:42,920 Speaker 1: I'd like to live in a world where Brittany and 596 00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:45,960 Speaker 1: Brittany alone guests to decide if she wants her personal 597 00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:49,879 Speaker 1: legal drama to serve as your next Netflix boinge. When 598 00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:53,160 Speaker 1: filmmakers Rod Blackhurst and Brian McGinn reached out to Amanda 599 00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:56,120 Speaker 1: about making a Netflix documentary, they said they would only 600 00:34:56,160 --> 00:34:58,839 Speaker 1: go through with the film if she participated, and it's 601 00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:00,560 Speaker 1: a big part of why she agreed to do it 602 00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:03,200 Speaker 1: in the first place. They had the ethical sense to 603 00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:06,120 Speaker 1: understand that I would be deeply impacted by that film 604 00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:09,680 Speaker 1: and that my consent and participation mattered. They decided it 605 00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:12,319 Speaker 1: was better to make no film than one without me. 606 00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:16,239 Speaker 1: She tweeted. When I first reached out to you, I 607 00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:18,680 Speaker 1: was in the process of researching an episode for the 608 00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:21,399 Speaker 1: podcast about the Free Britney movement, and when I saw 609 00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:25,520 Speaker 1: your tweets, it really so I stopped my research because 610 00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:29,160 Speaker 1: one of the points that you made was, you know, hey, 611 00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:34,840 Speaker 1: this documentary was made without Britney Spears's consent, and I 612 00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:37,759 Speaker 1: really had to have to really have a deep think 613 00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:40,280 Speaker 1: about what that meant, right, Like, I was very happy 614 00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:43,960 Speaker 1: that Britney Spears's conservatorship was overturned. I was happy to 615 00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:46,200 Speaker 1: see the role that that documentary maybe played in some 616 00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:49,160 Speaker 1: in some like public awareness of it, But I never 617 00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:52,840 Speaker 1: even thought to ask, what does it mean that this 618 00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:58,680 Speaker 1: this content was just released without her say, without her voice, 619 00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:01,919 Speaker 1: against her will? And I think we're in this moment 620 00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:04,760 Speaker 1: where there are so many different pieces of media asking 621 00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:08,640 Speaker 1: us to look back to how women were maligned, you know, 622 00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:12,040 Speaker 1: And I guess I wonder, like, what does it mean 623 00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:16,520 Speaker 1: that so many of those you know, documentary podcast what 624 00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:21,360 Speaker 1: have you? Are created about the about a woman without 625 00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:24,200 Speaker 1: her side of the story, without her voice, and then 626 00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:26,360 Speaker 1: sometimes against her will? Like, like what do we do 627 00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:29,520 Speaker 1: with that? How do we find a balance to be? Like, Oh, well, 628 00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:34,120 Speaker 1: maybe it's good that this documentary helped her overturn her conservatorship, 629 00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:37,560 Speaker 1: but it's also fucked up that it happened against her will, 630 00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:39,839 Speaker 1: Like isn't that just another way of violating someone who's 631 00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:43,359 Speaker 1: already been like so maligned and violated? Yeah? Yeah, Like 632 00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:48,080 Speaker 1: it did Brittany ultimately want her you know horror like 633 00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:53,719 Speaker 1: family drama to be so public? Um, because like she 634 00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:56,520 Speaker 1: didn't get a choice in that, right, Um, did it 635 00:36:56,640 --> 00:36:58,840 Speaker 1: make a difference in her trial. Is she grateful to 636 00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:01,840 Speaker 1: all the people who support of her? Of course? Um? 637 00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:04,000 Speaker 1: But it is interesting to me and I and I 638 00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:06,279 Speaker 1: think it is again one of those moments where it's 639 00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:11,480 Speaker 1: worth pausing and asking, like, wait, what is her perspective 640 00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:14,960 Speaker 1: in all of this, Like, since everything is going to 641 00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:21,120 Speaker 1: be impacting her the most, shouldn't she have some kind 642 00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:25,120 Speaker 1: of say and um, And you know, I'd be curious 643 00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:29,720 Speaker 1: to know like how Brittany feels today about the fact 644 00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:34,279 Speaker 1: that there were documentaries made without her consent and yet 645 00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:39,040 Speaker 1: they played, you know, a supportive role towards her, Like 646 00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:42,719 Speaker 1: that's an interesting you know, mental space to be in 647 00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:45,000 Speaker 1: in terms of like over the course of your own life. 648 00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:47,600 Speaker 1: Again there's it's but again it's almost like a hint 649 00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:50,839 Speaker 1: of that conservatorship, right, like we know what's good for you, 650 00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:54,200 Speaker 1: so we're gonna do it even if you don't want 651 00:37:54,320 --> 00:38:00,799 Speaker 1: us to, Like, oh, it's just there. It's me. It's 652 00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:03,680 Speaker 1: like a weird thing to have to unpack, right, And 653 00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:09,080 Speaker 1: I guess I I'm I want to see more public 654 00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:13,919 Speaker 1: like media makers wrestling with it because I feel like, yes, 655 00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:18,600 Speaker 1: it's a complicated square to circle, but I want to 656 00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:20,799 Speaker 1: I want to see that you're that you're aware of this, 657 00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:23,680 Speaker 1: aware of this dichotomy is a thing that exists and 658 00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:25,680 Speaker 1: the thing that we should be asking questions about and 659 00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:29,600 Speaker 1: pushing up against exactly. I think that if there were again, 660 00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:34,040 Speaker 1: it's that like self auditing, that introspection, that awareness that 661 00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:38,960 Speaker 1: you could have that your actions could have unintended consequences, 662 00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:42,880 Speaker 1: and that you are thinking about the people who like 663 00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:46,240 Speaker 1: you know you. Presumably, if you're a documentary filmmaker who's 664 00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:50,440 Speaker 1: making a documentary about Brittany, you can presumably assume that 665 00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:52,920 Speaker 1: whatever it is that you end up doing is going 666 00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:57,799 Speaker 1: to impact her. So like maybe think about how and 667 00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:03,800 Speaker 1: why and and how you can mitigate potential harm, because 668 00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:05,560 Speaker 1: that's what you don't want to do as a as 669 00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:08,520 Speaker 1: a storyteller. You don't want to just harm other people 670 00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:11,520 Speaker 1: for the sake of a story. I mean, at least 671 00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:15,040 Speaker 1: I would hope so. And I mean, I think in 672 00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:18,680 Speaker 1: this moment where we're really interested in like looking back 673 00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:22,319 Speaker 1: at the way that meet, the way that media, our 674 00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:29,600 Speaker 1: media ecosystem harmed women unfairly. So I pull this closure 675 00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:33,440 Speaker 1: live for a like you're wrong about style podcast as like, oh, 676 00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:36,320 Speaker 1: let's go back and revisit. But part of me wonders 677 00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:40,120 Speaker 1: if we are so busy looking back that we're not 678 00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:43,720 Speaker 1: seeing the ways that's happening now. Like, Okay, Britney Spears 679 00:39:43,719 --> 00:39:46,600 Speaker 1: was was unfairly maligned, you were unfairly maligned, and its 680 00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:50,839 Speaker 1: accident fairly maligned, all these people. But are we are we? Like, 681 00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:52,680 Speaker 1: what's the point of that kind of content if it 682 00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:55,040 Speaker 1: does not prime us to see it happening before our 683 00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:56,880 Speaker 1: eyes in real time? Like I don't want to have 684 00:39:56,920 --> 00:40:00,000 Speaker 1: to wait five years down the line for the podcast 685 00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:02,920 Speaker 1: thing tells us not that the media shouldn't be profiting 686 00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:06,799 Speaker 1: off of the pain and you know, shittiness to like 687 00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:09,120 Speaker 1: a vulnerable person. I don't want to have to wait 688 00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:11,879 Speaker 1: for a look back retrospective on that. What's the point 689 00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:13,560 Speaker 1: of this media if it doesn't allow us to do 690 00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:16,839 Speaker 1: this now? That's a really great point and I think 691 00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:21,520 Speaker 1: that that is that is another way that if we 692 00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:24,360 Speaker 1: are going to be spending time looking back, because I 693 00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:27,799 Speaker 1: think it's a worthwhile thing to do, let's not do 694 00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:30,440 Speaker 1: it just for a sake of like nostalgia. We can 695 00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:34,000 Speaker 1: all feel good about ourselves today because we're not doing 696 00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:36,959 Speaker 1: that like they did in the nineties. Like that there's 697 00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:40,399 Speaker 1: the danger of it approximating that where it's like, oh man, 698 00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:42,920 Speaker 1: we were terrible to women in the nineties, we can 699 00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:45,440 Speaker 1: feel totally we can pat ourselves on the back today. 700 00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:47,720 Speaker 1: There is nothing wrong with the way that we're treating 701 00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:50,200 Speaker 1: women today because look at what we did in the nineties. 702 00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:56,200 Speaker 1: Like it's important to to take stock of how things were, 703 00:40:56,640 --> 00:41:01,280 Speaker 1: how things have changed, but also how things haven't changed, 704 00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:06,360 Speaker 1: and if we can see echoes of what happened in 705 00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:10,680 Speaker 1: the past happening today and and try to be better. Definitely. 706 00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:12,560 Speaker 1: I mean this brings me to one of my last questions, 707 00:41:13,040 --> 00:41:15,799 Speaker 1: you know, what kind of world, Like that's given what 708 00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:20,600 Speaker 1: we know about how the media and the internet can 709 00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:23,000 Speaker 1: treat women, what kind of world do you want for 710 00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:24,880 Speaker 1: your daughter to grow up in? And like, what what 711 00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:27,319 Speaker 1: will you tell her about your life? And what will 712 00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:29,040 Speaker 1: you tell her about the kinds of the kinds of 713 00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:33,680 Speaker 1: experiences that she can expect from the world. Yeah, Well, 714 00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:37,600 Speaker 1: what I'm hoping that we're heading towards is a world 715 00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:43,880 Speaker 1: where everyone is more media literate and understands not just 716 00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:46,799 Speaker 1: how the industry functions, like how how does it even 717 00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:49,720 Speaker 1: just how do you on a day to day basis 718 00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:53,680 Speaker 1: put content out into the world, like, well, they're you know, 719 00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:57,440 Speaker 1: their incentive structures, and there's a monetary aspect to it, 720 00:41:57,480 --> 00:42:00,719 Speaker 1: and like there's a whole business side of it that's 721 00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:04,400 Speaker 1: important to know when you're consuming information. Um, there's a 722 00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:08,480 Speaker 1: human psychological role to it, Like what stories quote resonate 723 00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:11,800 Speaker 1: with people and with whom? And why why do certain 724 00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:15,719 Speaker 1: stories get uplifted and others get squashed? Why are some 725 00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:18,839 Speaker 1: people's stories just you know, discarded as if they aren't 726 00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:22,600 Speaker 1: valuable and other people's are constantly in the headlines? Like 727 00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:26,120 Speaker 1: these are all really important questions that I think as 728 00:42:26,239 --> 00:42:31,000 Speaker 1: consumers we should be asking, because we as consumers ultimately 729 00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:33,960 Speaker 1: have the power to say, you know what, I'm not 730 00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:37,200 Speaker 1: going to tune into your style of content anymore. I'm 731 00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:39,560 Speaker 1: going to tune into something else that I think is 732 00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:47,000 Speaker 1: more responsible or ethical or truthful. Um, and that that's worthwhile. UM. 733 00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:50,840 Speaker 1: So I hope that that's the world that we're gearing towards, 734 00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:58,000 Speaker 1: because as social media has democratized content creation, we all 735 00:42:58,120 --> 00:43:00,319 Speaker 1: feel like we can have a hand not just in 736 00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:05,000 Speaker 1: consuming media but also in producing it. Um. That's my hope. UM. 737 00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:08,040 Speaker 1: I don't know if that's actually going to happen. But um, 738 00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:12,839 Speaker 1: I'm hoping that I'm gonna let my daughter sort of 739 00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:17,840 Speaker 1: take the lead in in how much she wants to 740 00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:20,880 Speaker 1: know and how important my experience is going to be 741 00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:23,200 Speaker 1: for her, because one thing that I'm worried about is 742 00:43:23,239 --> 00:43:26,320 Speaker 1: her feeling like, you know, as much as I feel 743 00:43:26,600 --> 00:43:29,080 Speaker 1: very much in the shadow of the worst experience of 744 00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:31,640 Speaker 1: my life, like, I don't want her to feel like 745 00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:34,200 Speaker 1: she's forced to live in the shadow of the worst 746 00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:37,319 Speaker 1: experience of my life. Um, she should be able to 747 00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:39,759 Speaker 1: have her own life if she wants and if and 748 00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:42,800 Speaker 1: I I hope to raise her as a very curious, 749 00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:46,200 Speaker 1: thoughtful person. And so I my guess is that she's 750 00:43:46,239 --> 00:43:48,160 Speaker 1: going to be curious. And of course, if she's going 751 00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:50,800 Speaker 1: to be coming to the Innocence Network conference with me 752 00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:53,759 Speaker 1: every year, meeting other wrongfully convicted people, like, she's going 753 00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:57,760 Speaker 1: to start to notice that there's a there's an interesting 754 00:43:57,760 --> 00:44:00,120 Speaker 1: pattern happening here, like, oh, you were in jail, you 755 00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:02,880 Speaker 1: were in jail. Why has everyone been in jail? Like, 756 00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:05,800 Speaker 1: you know, she's gonna know since she's gonna ask questions, 757 00:44:05,960 --> 00:44:11,600 Speaker 1: and I think I'm going to be honest with her 758 00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:16,799 Speaker 1: of the time, always answer her questions. Um, but of 759 00:44:16,840 --> 00:44:19,120 Speaker 1: course I'm not gonna like give a six year old 760 00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:25,279 Speaker 1: tutorial on crime scene footage, you know, like, so yeah, 761 00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:29,120 Speaker 1: waituntil she's seven, when we're all that's that's the appropriate age. 762 00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:32,360 Speaker 1: So yeah, I think that like I want her to 763 00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:37,560 Speaker 1: feel like she it's not a taboo subject. It's absolutely 764 00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:40,480 Speaker 1: like anything about me and my experiences on the table 765 00:44:40,719 --> 00:44:44,920 Speaker 1: for her, should she need it and want it, um, 766 00:44:45,560 --> 00:44:47,919 Speaker 1: But that she doesn't need to feel like it needs 767 00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:50,800 Speaker 1: to be an important part of her life because honestly, 768 00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:53,839 Speaker 1: like no one's trauma. No one should feel like they 769 00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:56,399 Speaker 1: are bound to their trauma as if it's the most 770 00:44:56,440 --> 00:45:00,279 Speaker 1: important thing in their life either. So I think that's 771 00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:05,000 Speaker 1: another important thing. Yeah, that's such a good point. There 772 00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:10,239 Speaker 1: are so many interesting pieces of who you are that 773 00:45:10,440 --> 00:45:14,600 Speaker 1: like that's just one of a quilt of who you are. 774 00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:17,640 Speaker 1: And you know, thinking about your daughter, you've written so 775 00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:21,200 Speaker 1: beautifully about sort of long prison sentences and for you 776 00:45:21,280 --> 00:45:23,600 Speaker 1: how it was a kind of like forced impertility. Do 777 00:45:23,719 --> 00:45:27,280 Speaker 1: you see criminal justice and reproductive justice as like linked 778 00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:32,760 Speaker 1: in that way? Absolutely? And I think that nobody's noticing that, um. 779 00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:35,360 Speaker 1: I mean, and it's and it's hard for like the 780 00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:38,560 Speaker 1: it's hard for men to write like it's sure men 781 00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:40,960 Speaker 1: are not are not limited in that way, like they 782 00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:43,840 Speaker 1: don't have a very specific window and they're fertile, but 783 00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:48,120 Speaker 1: they do have very specific window when they're capable of 784 00:45:48,280 --> 00:45:51,920 Speaker 1: forming the kinds of relationships that would turn into families 785 00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:56,560 Speaker 1: even and so like for me, I think that especially 786 00:45:56,560 --> 00:45:58,400 Speaker 1: with the way that there are prison sentences in this 787 00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:02,560 Speaker 1: country where they just are nonsensically long, like no one 788 00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:05,759 Speaker 1: should be sentenced to three hundred years in prison, Like 789 00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:08,520 Speaker 1: it just doesn't make any like, just just be reasonable, 790 00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:11,560 Speaker 1: like let's let's consider what the sentence is going to 791 00:46:11,719 --> 00:46:15,200 Speaker 1: mean for an actual human beings life and take that 792 00:46:15,239 --> 00:46:19,719 Speaker 1: into consideration when we're thinking about sentencing. And I think 793 00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:23,160 Speaker 1: that the ways that women have sort of been pushed 794 00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:28,120 Speaker 1: into a justice system that was built by and for men, 795 00:46:28,440 --> 00:46:32,480 Speaker 1: and their needs and and and physical realities aren't really 796 00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:38,239 Speaker 1: taken into consideration in that process is an incredible disservice too, 797 00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:42,480 Speaker 1: And it's an incredible harm that we're committing as a society. 798 00:46:42,600 --> 00:46:48,320 Speaker 1: Like it it matters that by sentencing someone to such 799 00:46:48,360 --> 00:46:52,640 Speaker 1: a long amount of time, you are effectively limiting not 800 00:46:52,719 --> 00:46:56,800 Speaker 1: just their freedom, but so much more about their life 801 00:46:56,800 --> 00:47:00,520 Speaker 1: that is fundamental to being a human being. UM, Like 802 00:47:01,719 --> 00:47:06,520 Speaker 1: I I never should have faced the prospect of never 803 00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:09,800 Speaker 1: getting to have a family of my own for because 804 00:47:09,840 --> 00:47:11,920 Speaker 1: I was accused of a crime I didn't commit, and 805 00:47:12,040 --> 00:47:18,080 Speaker 1: yet I did. Amanda, thank you for using this platform 806 00:47:18,360 --> 00:47:23,200 Speaker 1: to speak up for other wrongly convicted folks and even 807 00:47:23,480 --> 00:47:27,560 Speaker 1: rightfully convicted folks, because like here, the other reality is 808 00:47:27,600 --> 00:47:29,440 Speaker 1: like a lot of the women that I met in prison, 809 00:47:29,719 --> 00:47:32,560 Speaker 1: they did commit crimes, they were also victims of crime 810 00:47:32,600 --> 00:47:36,080 Speaker 1: before they ever committed crimes. And how is it that 811 00:47:36,160 --> 00:47:39,200 Speaker 1: society had let them fall through the cracks and had 812 00:47:39,239 --> 00:47:44,480 Speaker 1: refused them good opportunities to be productive people and just 813 00:47:44,560 --> 00:47:47,680 Speaker 1: punished them in the process, like the amount of like 814 00:47:48,520 --> 00:47:51,480 Speaker 1: you know, I was one of the most fortunate people 815 00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:55,640 Speaker 1: in that circumstance, and I and I say that as 816 00:47:55,680 --> 00:47:58,000 Speaker 1: an innocent person who was wrongly accused and put in prison. 817 00:47:58,239 --> 00:48:02,080 Speaker 1: So like, you know, it's it matters. We're all sort 818 00:48:02,080 --> 00:48:06,160 Speaker 1: of implicated in the way that society um limits the 819 00:48:06,200 --> 00:48:11,600 Speaker 1: opportunities of people, and we should be mindful of that. Absolutely. 820 00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:14,040 Speaker 1: I feel like every time you talk to women who 821 00:48:14,120 --> 00:48:18,400 Speaker 1: are in prison, it's it's like, oh, you were obviously 822 00:48:18,480 --> 00:48:23,280 Speaker 1: coerced or like you are a survivor of domestic violence 823 00:48:23,360 --> 00:48:27,319 Speaker 1: or trafficking like it is, and I just, I mean, 824 00:48:27,480 --> 00:48:31,040 Speaker 1: I'm I'm this is such a so long along our conversation, 825 00:48:31,080 --> 00:48:33,040 Speaker 1: but I'm right there with you. I think like when 826 00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:37,200 Speaker 1: you actually look at who we are lacking up sometimes 827 00:48:36,719 --> 00:48:39,840 Speaker 1: were like this comically long amounts of time and the 828 00:48:39,880 --> 00:48:42,520 Speaker 1: circumstances they came from, it's clear that we are not 829 00:48:42,680 --> 00:48:46,000 Speaker 1: making our community safer, we are just spreading more harm. 830 00:48:46,160 --> 00:48:50,319 Speaker 1: And I'm right there with you. Yeah, yeah, Well, it's 831 00:48:50,480 --> 00:48:52,640 Speaker 1: it's a difficult thing to look at because I think 832 00:48:52,640 --> 00:48:54,680 Speaker 1: a lot of us would just like to think, oh, 833 00:48:54,719 --> 00:48:57,040 Speaker 1: we'll just put the bad people and somewhere else. We'll 834 00:48:57,040 --> 00:48:59,799 Speaker 1: just take bad people and put them away. And it's like, not, 835 00:49:00,239 --> 00:49:03,000 Speaker 1: that's not it's not just good people and bad people. 836 00:49:03,400 --> 00:49:06,719 Speaker 1: It's not just who gets put away versus who doesn't 837 00:49:06,719 --> 00:49:10,000 Speaker 1: get put away. Is not doesn't also fall neatly along 838 00:49:10,040 --> 00:49:13,680 Speaker 1: those lines, like, let's be real, it's way more complicated 839 00:49:13,680 --> 00:49:17,319 Speaker 1: than that, and and oftentimes it's actually just the most 840 00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:22,000 Speaker 1: vulnerable people who end up get putting away. Amanda, Where 841 00:49:22,080 --> 00:49:25,440 Speaker 1: can folks keep up with Labyrinth and all the amazing 842 00:49:25,480 --> 00:49:29,080 Speaker 1: work that you are doing well, thank you for asking. Um. 843 00:49:29,160 --> 00:49:32,520 Speaker 1: You can go to Knox Robinson dot com to follow 844 00:49:32,600 --> 00:49:34,520 Speaker 1: all of the work that me and my husband do. 845 00:49:34,880 --> 00:49:38,480 Speaker 1: We have a Patreon so patreon dot com slash Knox Robinson. 846 00:49:39,120 --> 00:49:41,920 Speaker 1: You can follow me on Twitter at Amanda Knox and 847 00:49:42,080 --> 00:49:45,920 Speaker 1: on Instagram at a Mama n NOx. This season on 848 00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:48,480 Speaker 1: there Are No Girls on the Internet, you can expect 849 00:49:48,520 --> 00:49:51,320 Speaker 1: more conversations about what it means for marginalized people to 850 00:49:51,360 --> 00:49:54,080 Speaker 1: show up online and in technology. If you'd like to 851 00:49:54,080 --> 00:49:56,399 Speaker 1: stay connected with the show, you're in luck because you've 852 00:49:56,400 --> 00:49:58,800 Speaker 1: got a brand new newsletter with stories that go way 853 00:49:58,840 --> 00:50:01,040 Speaker 1: beyond what you hear on the spot cast. You'll get 854 00:50:01,080 --> 00:50:03,879 Speaker 1: links to other shows I'm listening to and exclusive takes. 855 00:50:03,880 --> 00:50:07,080 Speaker 1: I'm the latest news and impacting marginalized folks online. Sign 856 00:50:07,160 --> 00:50:10,560 Speaker 1: up at tangodi dot com slash Newsletter, and while you're there, 857 00:50:10,800 --> 00:50:12,960 Speaker 1: pick up one of our new t shirts, mugs, notebooks, 858 00:50:12,960 --> 00:50:19,879 Speaker 1: and other merch at tangodi dot com slash store. Got 859 00:50:19,880 --> 00:50:21,840 Speaker 1: a story about an interesting thing in tech, or just 860 00:50:21,880 --> 00:50:23,879 Speaker 1: want to say hi, You can be us at Hello 861 00:50:23,920 --> 00:50:26,440 Speaker 1: at tangodi dot com. You can also find transcripts for 862 00:50:26,440 --> 00:50:29,160 Speaker 1: today's episode at tangodi dot com. There Are No Girls 863 00:50:29,160 --> 00:50:31,520 Speaker 1: on the Internet was created by me bridget Tod. It's 864 00:50:31,560 --> 00:50:34,400 Speaker 1: a production of I Heart Radio and Unboss creative Jonathan 865 00:50:34,440 --> 00:50:37,440 Speaker 1: Strickland as our executive producer. Terry Harrison is our producer 866 00:50:37,440 --> 00:50:41,279 Speaker 1: and sound engineer. Michaelmato is our contributing producer. I'm your host, 867 00:50:41,360 --> 00:50:44,160 Speaker 1: bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow, rate 868 00:50:44,239 --> 00:50:47,319 Speaker 1: and review us on Apple Podcasts. 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