1 00:00:00,920 --> 00:00:04,040 Speaker 1: This is Latino USA, the radio journal of News and 2 00:00:04,160 --> 00:00:07,520 Speaker 1: Curture Latino USC latin Latino USA. 3 00:00:07,760 --> 00:00:08,920 Speaker 2: I'm Maria Inojosa. 4 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:12,800 Speaker 3: We bring you stories that are underreported but that mattered to. 5 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:14,800 Speaker 2: You, overlooked by the rest of the media. 6 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:16,760 Speaker 3: And while the country is struggling to deal with these, 7 00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:20,000 Speaker 3: we listen to the stories of Black and Latino Studios United, 8 00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:24,919 Speaker 3: Latino Front, a cultural renaissance organizing at the forefront of 9 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:25,520 Speaker 3: the movement. 10 00:00:26,239 --> 00:00:33,839 Speaker 1: I'm Maria Inojosa, nose Bayan. Hey Latino USA, listener, gomoistas. 11 00:00:34,280 --> 00:00:36,519 Speaker 1: We have a treat for you today, especially if you're 12 00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:40,360 Speaker 1: a fan of true crime. Our colleagues over at Orbit 13 00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:44,400 Speaker 1: Media just released a news series. It's called The Burden, 14 00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:48,600 Speaker 1: and it tells the story of NYPD detective Lewis N. Scarcella, 15 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:53,120 Speaker 1: who was legendary for cracking the toughest cases and putting 16 00:00:53,159 --> 00:00:56,680 Speaker 1: away the worst criminals back in the nineteen nineties, so 17 00:00:56,840 --> 00:01:01,360 Speaker 1: much so that this guy had a nickname the But 18 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:08,520 Speaker 1: underneath Scarcella's success, something obscure apparently lurked, something a group 19 00:01:08,560 --> 00:01:12,959 Speaker 1: of convicted murderers turned jailhouse lawyers would uncover with the 20 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:17,680 Speaker 1: help of a relentless new York Times reporter. On episode 21 00:01:17,720 --> 00:01:21,040 Speaker 1: one of The Burden, we meet that journalist, her name 22 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:25,360 Speaker 1: is Francis or Frenchie Droblis, who acts on a tip 23 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:28,399 Speaker 1: about this group of men in jail who happened to 24 00:01:28,440 --> 00:01:32,240 Speaker 1: share something. They were all arrested by the same detective. 25 00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:37,000 Speaker 1: His name Scarcella. But is this a story about a 26 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:40,800 Speaker 1: police officer turned into a hero or a villain? No, 27 00:01:41,240 --> 00:01:44,679 Speaker 1: of course not, and that's what hosts Steve Fishman and 28 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:48,720 Speaker 1: Dax Devlon Ross are going to dive into. Here's episode 29 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:50,280 Speaker 1: one of the Burden. 30 00:01:50,760 --> 00:02:08,840 Speaker 2: Enjoy the show, Dax, this is the first story I 31 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:11,200 Speaker 2: ever heard Louis Scarcella tell. 32 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:15,520 Speaker 4: The legendary New York detective tell me more so. 33 00:02:15,639 --> 00:02:20,120 Speaker 2: Detective Scarcella is with his partner. They're testifying in court 34 00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:25,320 Speaker 2: one day. It's lunchtime. The court breaks and Detective Scarcella 35 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:29,200 Speaker 2: and his partner decide that this is the moment to 36 00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:36,160 Speaker 2: track down a murder suspect. We park right here, right here. 37 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:39,920 Speaker 5: There was an Italian guy right here smoking a shrew, 38 00:02:40,680 --> 00:02:43,520 Speaker 5: I said Ben Bennygoy, and I showed him the picture. 39 00:02:43,919 --> 00:02:46,799 Speaker 4: He looked at the picture, he backed up and he. 40 00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:51,080 Speaker 2: Points to the White House. Lo and beholds of me. 41 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:54,040 Speaker 5: Six foot three hundred pounds. 42 00:02:53,760 --> 00:02:54,760 Speaker 4: Comes out of the house. 43 00:02:55,840 --> 00:02:59,320 Speaker 2: I said, that's him. I said, I'm going to run 44 00:02:59,440 --> 00:02:59,920 Speaker 2: him down. 45 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:06,040 Speaker 5: I gunned the car stch jump out. 46 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:07,520 Speaker 2: I run over him. 47 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:08,880 Speaker 4: I put the gun on him. 48 00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:12,640 Speaker 5: He's got a sig sour in his waistband, all big 49 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:15,120 Speaker 5: sig sur I jump on him. 50 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:16,960 Speaker 2: He's going for the gun. 51 00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:19,600 Speaker 4: I put my glock to his head and pulled the trigger. 52 00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:22,600 Speaker 4: But the gun's no good. 53 00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:23,680 Speaker 6: My gun's no good. 54 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:27,360 Speaker 2: I kilt him my pawn to shoot him. 55 00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:29,200 Speaker 4: He's bucking me. 56 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:31,359 Speaker 5: He's bucking me like a bronco. 57 00:03:32,200 --> 00:03:35,000 Speaker 4: I grab him and I knock into the ground. 58 00:03:39,080 --> 00:03:40,920 Speaker 2: Do you ever imagine that clock goes off? 59 00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:44,640 Speaker 5: I mean I intended it to. I intended it to. 60 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:46,600 Speaker 2: What do you want me to do? 61 00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:48,480 Speaker 6: He's got a six hour going for a six I 62 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:48,720 Speaker 6: want am? 63 00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:56,240 Speaker 2: I supposed to kiss him. Welcome to Louise Brooklyn, where 64 00:03:56,320 --> 00:03:59,640 Speaker 2: bad guys were around every corner and it was up 65 00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:02,600 Speaker 2: to the hective Scarcella to protect the people. 66 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:09,840 Speaker 5: They needed me, and I loved doing it. 67 00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:13,520 Speaker 2: Louis heyday was the eighties and nineties, and back then 68 00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:17,800 Speaker 2: all New Yorkers, even the most liberal calumnists, wanted law 69 00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:18,840 Speaker 2: and order. 70 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:23,239 Speaker 7: When you have babies being shot in their grandmother's arms, 71 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:25,040 Speaker 7: people's throats being slit for a. 72 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:28,200 Speaker 4: Five dollars vial of crack, I don't care where those 73 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:30,880 Speaker 4: prisons are and when I'm sent there for long terms. 74 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:35,720 Speaker 2: Louis Garcela had movie star good looks, smoked a cigar everywhere, 75 00:04:36,120 --> 00:04:38,599 Speaker 2: and he was tough. He seemed like he was the 76 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:41,000 Speaker 2: kind of tough cop the city needed. 77 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:47,200 Speaker 8: He was everybody's idea of the prince of the city. 78 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:51,920 Speaker 8: He was the guy who solved the hardest cases and 79 00:04:52,040 --> 00:04:56,360 Speaker 8: made sure the worst killers were brought to justice. 80 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:01,320 Speaker 2: Louis Garcella was known as the closes, the one who 81 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:06,120 Speaker 2: got the confession, and with that came fame. He was 82 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:09,000 Speaker 2: on the Doctor Phil's show, No One Knows the Art 83 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:11,680 Speaker 2: of getting confessions better than twenty nine year better in 84 00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:14,880 Speaker 2: New York City homicide detectives, and. 85 00:05:14,839 --> 00:05:16,520 Speaker 4: He earned the respect of his peers. 86 00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:19,560 Speaker 6: Louise, my god, he's my man, you know, he's my friend, 87 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:22,640 Speaker 6: the hell of a cop, the rat detective. 88 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:25,640 Speaker 4: God forbid something happened to me or my family. 89 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:29,880 Speaker 9: I would want Louis Scarcella to do the investigation. A 90 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:34,200 Speaker 9: collot of trust in him. 91 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:36,240 Speaker 2: He looks like shit. Now we'll go all this shit. 92 00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:39,719 Speaker 4: Steve the poor the poor guy that beat the balls 93 00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:44,320 Speaker 4: off him, like, you know that's right. Years later, the 94 00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:49,640 Speaker 4: Louis Scarcella story changed. The once decorated detective now stands 95 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:54,520 Speaker 4: accused of coaching witnesses, coercing confessions, and trading drugs for testimony. 96 00:05:54,640 --> 00:05:57,920 Speaker 1: Garsola cracked numerous murder cases in the eighties and nineties, 97 00:05:57,920 --> 00:05:59,440 Speaker 1: but his techniques had been questioned. 98 00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:02,080 Speaker 8: A group of invicted murder says it all comes back 99 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:05,080 Speaker 8: to one rogue official and they want their names clear. 100 00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:13,760 Speaker 5: Oh yeah, I'm the devil in disgraced devil. Yeah yeah, Well, 101 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:15,280 Speaker 5: what can I tell you? 102 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:20,760 Speaker 2: I'm Steve Fishman. I've lived in New York a long time. 103 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:24,160 Speaker 2: I've been writing about crime for a long time. As 104 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:28,760 Speaker 2: a journalist, I've interviewed cops, prosecutors, criminals, son of Sam 105 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:32,960 Speaker 2: Bernie Madoff. They opened up to me. I felt I 106 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:36,200 Speaker 2: knew a lot about the criminal justice system. So when 107 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:40,960 Speaker 2: I heard these headlines about Scarcela, my thought, this cannot 108 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:44,560 Speaker 2: be the whole story. Was this really about one rogue 109 00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:48,719 Speaker 2: cop who what hoodwinked an entire system? 110 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:54,279 Speaker 4: And I'm dak Stevlin Ross, journalist, author, lawyer. I've written 111 00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:57,880 Speaker 4: about criminal justice for years. I know what it's like 112 00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:02,000 Speaker 4: to be wrongfully arrested personally, and I'm interested in the 113 00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:05,200 Speaker 4: people who went to jail and maybe shouldn't have. 114 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:10,320 Speaker 2: We're gonna go deep. Is Louis a hero, cop, a scapegoat, 115 00:07:10,520 --> 00:07:13,240 Speaker 2: or a super villain who helped put away more than 116 00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:17,680 Speaker 2: twenty innocent men, men who now want revenge. 117 00:07:19,720 --> 00:07:22,200 Speaker 4: I don't know, man, Maybe they want vindication. 118 00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:26,160 Speaker 2: You know that's what Louis Scarcella feels he deserves too. 119 00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:28,760 Speaker 4: I'll tell you what though, Well, you need to know 120 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:32,640 Speaker 4: the truth, both about Louis Scarcela and the band of 121 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:35,960 Speaker 4: convicted murders who took him on, and about the city. 122 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:50,000 Speaker 10: We live in stonecloud of comments commonstrate to you. 123 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:53,120 Speaker 2: Can't run for shelter. 124 00:07:54,320 --> 00:07:55,680 Speaker 4: There's nothing you can't. 125 00:07:55,480 --> 00:08:11,080 Speaker 2: Do from orbit me. This is the burden today on 126 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:20,560 Speaker 2: the show the Scoop, you gotta hold all time? 127 00:08:41,920 --> 00:08:44,280 Speaker 4: All right, Steve, where do we begin? 128 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:48,160 Speaker 2: We begin with the person who broke the Louis Scarcella 129 00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:53,680 Speaker 2: story long before you or I got involved. That's Francis Robless, 130 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:57,640 Speaker 2: known to her New York Times colleagues as Frenchie. 131 00:08:57,840 --> 00:08:59,280 Speaker 7: The Porto Rican grow known as Frenchie. 132 00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:02,560 Speaker 2: I do not speak for Frenchie's from Queens, from an 133 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:04,880 Speaker 2: Italian neighborhood called Howard Beach. 134 00:09:05,440 --> 00:09:10,480 Speaker 9: Howard Beach was a astoundingly racist place. 135 00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:14,199 Speaker 2: And growing up there, it taught Frenchie to be fierce. 136 00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:17,240 Speaker 9: My best friend in elementary school was Perto Rican, and 137 00:09:17,360 --> 00:09:20,400 Speaker 9: so this one kid was like, hey, pldorica Isy switch 138 00:09:20,480 --> 00:09:24,480 Speaker 9: Lane and my girlfriend Jenevieve and I we went to 139 00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:25,520 Speaker 9: his house. 140 00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:27,880 Speaker 7: In sixth grade. 141 00:09:28,160 --> 00:09:30,360 Speaker 9: We rang the doorbell and his mother answered the door 142 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:34,000 Speaker 9: and she was pregnant or belly outza wherever is Anthony home? 143 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 9: And she's like ane. So he comes and he's you know, 144 00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:41,240 Speaker 9: you can see he's kind of looking at us rather suspiciously, 145 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:42,640 Speaker 9: like one of the two Puerto Rican girls that I 146 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:45,280 Speaker 9: believe in school doing at my door. And we beat 147 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:46,520 Speaker 9: the crap out of him right there in front of 148 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:46,880 Speaker 9: his mother. 149 00:09:52,640 --> 00:09:55,640 Speaker 2: This was the nineteen eighties and Frenchie was in high school, 150 00:09:55,920 --> 00:10:00,400 Speaker 2: living in a dangerous neighborhood in a dangerous city. One night, 151 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:04,160 Speaker 2: her mother was a victim. Her mother was carjacked, a 152 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:06,960 Speaker 2: gun was put to her head right in front of 153 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:10,040 Speaker 2: their house, and then her mother was summoned to the 154 00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:14,480 Speaker 2: police station to identify the carjacker in the lineup, the 155 00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:17,319 Speaker 2: man who'd been arrested in the stolen vehicle. 156 00:10:18,640 --> 00:10:22,080 Speaker 9: And the detective puts his right hand on his left 157 00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:25,400 Speaker 9: arm and he makes like a figure of the number two, 158 00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:28,440 Speaker 9: you know, holding up two fingers, and he looks at 159 00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:30,120 Speaker 9: my mother, telling her. 160 00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:31,480 Speaker 7: To choose number two. 161 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:34,400 Speaker 9: So my mother goes in there. She looks at the guys. 162 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:36,440 Speaker 9: She has no idea who it is. She doesn't remember. 163 00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:38,800 Speaker 9: It was dark, you know, she had a gun in 164 00:10:38,800 --> 00:10:44,800 Speaker 9: her face, So she picked number two. I remember thinking. 165 00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:47,560 Speaker 7: Well, screw him. You know, he was driving a stolen car. 166 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:52,560 Speaker 9: He's at the very least was involved in car theft. 167 00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:55,640 Speaker 4: Guilty enough for her. 168 00:10:56,559 --> 00:10:59,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, back then, it didn't matter to Frenchie if this 169 00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:04,320 Speaker 2: guy did this crime. But later French she became a reporter, 170 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:07,600 Speaker 2: first at the Miami Herald and then at the New 171 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:10,679 Speaker 2: York Times, and their views evolved. 172 00:11:11,679 --> 00:11:15,640 Speaker 9: You know, maybe my mother helped send the innocent person 173 00:11:15,679 --> 00:11:20,080 Speaker 9: to prison. He got seven years. Everybody was in on it. 174 00:11:20,200 --> 00:11:22,319 Speaker 9: Everybody it was in on the game. The cops were 175 00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:24,800 Speaker 9: in on it, the witnesses were in on it, and 176 00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:28,760 Speaker 9: the prosecutor probably knew that my mother didn't know who 177 00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:31,360 Speaker 9: he was and was like whatever she said, Number. 178 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:32,160 Speaker 7: Two, number two. 179 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:36,360 Speaker 4: Fast forward to twenty thirteen and Frenchy is at the 180 00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:39,280 Speaker 4: New York Times. She's itching for a good story, a 181 00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:43,480 Speaker 4: big story, something that will make a splash. One day, 182 00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:47,040 Speaker 4: she's on a routine assignment when she meets someone interesting. 183 00:11:47,720 --> 00:11:49,680 Speaker 9: Was a guy named Derek Hamilton, who was an ex 184 00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:52,720 Speaker 9: Cohn who had been kind of like a jail house lawyer. 185 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:58,400 Speaker 11: You meet her and Hispanic woman, beautiful, long hair, you know, 186 00:11:58,640 --> 00:11:59,160 Speaker 11: made up. 187 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:02,880 Speaker 4: And this is Derek remembering meeting Frenchie for the first time. 188 00:12:03,559 --> 00:12:07,440 Speaker 4: He's a bigger guy, broadcast, about six foot two. He's 189 00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:10,000 Speaker 4: got a single gold tooth in the front and a 190 00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:12,320 Speaker 4: shaved head, big presence. 191 00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:16,240 Speaker 11: I've been in Queens Boulevard, Course Street from the courthouse. 192 00:12:16,520 --> 00:12:20,400 Speaker 11: There was some restaurant there and we had dinner at twelve. 193 00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:24,720 Speaker 9: And so we're just chatting and he says, oh, you know, 194 00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:26,880 Speaker 9: I see that you're kind of interested in this issue 195 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:29,720 Speaker 9: of you know, the Brooklyn Dida's office having screwed somebody over. 196 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:33,840 Speaker 9: I know a lot of cases in Brooklyn of wrongful convictions. 197 00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:35,600 Speaker 7: Okay, really okay, good. 198 00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:37,320 Speaker 9: You know, I was kind of in the New York 199 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:39,800 Speaker 9: office sharpening pencils, so that seemed like a good idea 200 00:12:39,880 --> 00:12:40,080 Speaker 9: to me. 201 00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:41,520 Speaker 7: And to follow up on that tip. 202 00:12:41,840 --> 00:12:44,920 Speaker 2: So Frenchie brings it to her editor and I'm like, oh, 203 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:45,600 Speaker 2: I have a tip. 204 00:12:45,840 --> 00:12:48,760 Speaker 9: You know, there's a lot of wrongfully convicted guys in Brooklyn, 205 00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:49,800 Speaker 9: and I have a good source. 206 00:12:49,840 --> 00:12:51,000 Speaker 7: He was a jail house lawyer. 207 00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:56,199 Speaker 9: And so my editor says to me, well, what else 208 00:12:56,240 --> 00:12:58,760 Speaker 9: do the cases have in common? Like what connects them? 209 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:04,360 Speaker 9: I was so offended by that question. I was like, well, 210 00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:06,160 Speaker 9: I don't know, maybe they didn't do it like that 211 00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:08,960 Speaker 9: connects them. You know, maybe they're all black, you know, 212 00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:11,199 Speaker 9: and the railroaded. 213 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:12,199 Speaker 7: By the criminal justice system. 214 00:13:12,440 --> 00:13:14,439 Speaker 9: Like I just thought it was such a hoity toity 215 00:13:14,720 --> 00:13:19,280 Speaker 9: New York Times view of journalism that I couldn't just 216 00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:21,199 Speaker 9: come up with the wrongful conviction. I had to come 217 00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:22,920 Speaker 9: up with what connects them? 218 00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:25,760 Speaker 7: So I nod politely, you know, yes, ma'am. 219 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:29,439 Speaker 9: And I'm like I go back to my desk, kind 220 00:13:29,480 --> 00:13:33,280 Speaker 9: of grumbling under my breath, and I called Derek and 221 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:38,880 Speaker 9: I'm like, all right, well, this editor of mine wants 222 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:46,000 Speaker 9: to know what connects these cases, and he goes, well, 223 00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:50,320 Speaker 9: a lot of them are the same cop and his 224 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:52,439 Speaker 9: name is Luis Garsov. 225 00:13:53,960 --> 00:14:12,840 Speaker 4: This smoke behind the story that's after the break Welcome back. 226 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:16,520 Speaker 4: Derek Hamilton was out of prison but still connected to 227 00:14:16,559 --> 00:14:20,240 Speaker 4: people on the inside. He's a self taught lawyer, learned 228 00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:23,000 Speaker 4: the law behind bars, and he was still in the 229 00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:23,880 Speaker 4: prison grape vine. 230 00:14:25,920 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 7: So I meet with Derek again. 231 00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:32,120 Speaker 9: And Derek, you know, he was interesting because he knew 232 00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:35,040 Speaker 9: some things, but he did not know a lot of things. 233 00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:38,800 Speaker 9: He told me kind of loosey goosey stuff like he said, 234 00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:42,120 Speaker 9: oh that this guy was notorious for using the same 235 00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:45,360 Speaker 9: witness over and over again, but he didn't know the 236 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:48,720 Speaker 9: names of the defendants who had had the same witness 237 00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:49,800 Speaker 9: testify against them. 238 00:14:50,160 --> 00:14:51,800 Speaker 7: And he did not know the name of the witness. 239 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:56,240 Speaker 9: So I was like, oh, brother, you know, here I 240 00:14:56,280 --> 00:14:58,400 Speaker 9: am talking this up to my editor like I'm some 241 00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:01,600 Speaker 9: hotshot who's going to crack this cane. And I got nothing, 242 00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:04,200 Speaker 9: And I thought, oh my god, you know what am 243 00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:04,560 Speaker 9: I going to do? 244 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:04,800 Speaker 2: Now? 245 00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:06,280 Speaker 7: You know, I don't have anywhere to turn. 246 00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:09,800 Speaker 2: So she went back to Derek. She needed the name 247 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:13,720 Speaker 2: of that very talented witness, and that's when Derek gives 248 00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:17,440 Speaker 2: her a legal document. This was a document written by 249 00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:21,480 Speaker 2: one of his friends still in jail, another jailhouse lawyer. 250 00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:24,840 Speaker 2: It's called a four forty motion, and it's what you 251 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:28,200 Speaker 2: file if you're trying to get your conviction overturned. 252 00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:33,960 Speaker 9: So he gives me Shabacca chaqurs for forty. 253 00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:41,200 Speaker 6: I probably rewrote that one hundred times because I wanted 254 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:44,280 Speaker 6: to make sure that I was saying what I wanted 255 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:44,760 Speaker 6: to say. 256 00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:49,040 Speaker 4: This is Shabacca Shakur. Scarcella helped convict Shabacca of a 257 00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:52,280 Speaker 4: double murder, which he says he didn't do. His four 258 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:56,840 Speaker 4: forty was impressive, sixty pages of legal argument written while 259 00:15:56,880 --> 00:15:59,480 Speaker 4: he was part of a prison law firm. That's right, 260 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:03,920 Speaker 4: a law firm formed in prison and run by convicted murderers, 261 00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:09,640 Speaker 4: all of whom claimed innocence. More on that later. Schbacca 262 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:13,800 Speaker 4: and Derek got close in prison. Now Derek urges Shabaka 263 00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:14,880 Speaker 4: to talk to Frenchy. 264 00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:16,360 Speaker 2: So I called her. 265 00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:19,800 Speaker 6: She was like, okay, you said, scar Seller is a 266 00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:23,880 Speaker 6: crooked cop. I read your brief. I said, listen. I 267 00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:26,080 Speaker 6: gave a list of names, a list of you know, 268 00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:31,040 Speaker 6: people she could talk to. Information that would substantiate that 269 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:34,520 Speaker 6: he was a crooked cop. And I remember telling her, 270 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:38,240 Speaker 6: like you an investigative reporter, go and investigate. 271 00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:44,520 Speaker 4: In that dense document, two pages focused on Louis Garcella. 272 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:49,640 Speaker 9: He says in this document, it says something something. Lewis 273 00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:54,720 Speaker 9: Garcella was notorious in Brooklyn for his you know, unethical 274 00:16:55,040 --> 00:16:55,800 Speaker 9: and you. 275 00:16:55,760 --> 00:16:57,720 Speaker 7: Know, framing people basically. 276 00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:02,360 Speaker 9: In fact, he was known to use the same witness 277 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:05,880 Speaker 9: over and over again, a woman named Teresa Gomes. 278 00:17:06,080 --> 00:17:08,000 Speaker 7: And I'm like, you know, that's it. 279 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:08,480 Speaker 8: That's the name. 280 00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:09,840 Speaker 7: That's what I've been waiting for. 281 00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:11,639 Speaker 9: I'm already to find out the name of the of 282 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:12,560 Speaker 9: the of the witness. 283 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:16,080 Speaker 2: So Frenchie has the name. Now she does what a 284 00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:20,040 Speaker 2: lot of us do when we're hunting for information. She googles. 285 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:29,280 Speaker 9: That's my big investigative reporting secret. So I google Lewis 286 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:34,800 Speaker 9: Garsella and Teresa Gomes together. You know, I don't know 287 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:38,159 Speaker 9: what I thought I was going to find. And I 288 00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:40,959 Speaker 9: got a hit, and I'm like, well, this is curious. 289 00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:46,080 Speaker 9: It was like some random Google forum, a cigar smoker 290 00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:50,919 Speaker 9: forum where somebody has asked I think the question on 291 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:53,520 Speaker 9: the forum was when did you first smoke your first 292 00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:54,119 Speaker 9: great cigar. 293 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 4: Okay, so a cigar smoker's form not exactly where I'd 294 00:17:58,280 --> 00:17:59,640 Speaker 4: expect to find a lead about a. 295 00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:05,080 Speaker 2: Crooked exactly, but what she comes across there turns out 296 00:18:05,119 --> 00:18:09,000 Speaker 2: to be crucial to her understanding of the entire story. 297 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:14,639 Speaker 9: This guy a man answers. The first cigar which truly 298 00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:17,800 Speaker 9: made me realize how much I was going to enjoy cigars, 299 00:18:18,119 --> 00:18:21,159 Speaker 9: was smoked in nineteen eighty eight at a bar on 300 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:25,240 Speaker 9: Remsen Street in Brooklyn, New York called Callahan's. The cigar 301 00:18:25,359 --> 00:18:28,000 Speaker 9: was given to me by a legendary detective of the 302 00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:32,199 Speaker 9: Brooklyn North Homicide Squad named Louis Scarcela. Lewis had been 303 00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:35,400 Speaker 9: the detective on the first two murder cases I prosecuted, 304 00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:39,720 Speaker 9: both of which featured the same witness testifying against the 305 00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:43,520 Speaker 9: same defendant for two different murders. The defendant was a 306 00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:47,360 Speaker 9: dealer named Robert Hill. The witness was named Teresa Gomez, 307 00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:51,560 Speaker 9: a woman who was even then ravaged from head to 308 00:18:51,560 --> 00:18:54,800 Speaker 9: toe by the scourge of crack cocaine. It was near 309 00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:59,560 Speaker 9: falling to even think that anyone would believe Gomez about anything, 310 00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:03,600 Speaker 9: let alone the fact that she witnessed the same guy 311 00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:07,640 Speaker 9: kill two different people, and the guy signs it it's 312 00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:12,560 Speaker 9: the district attorney, and he's now at charge. 313 00:19:13,359 --> 00:19:18,280 Speaker 4: Here's what I'm wondering, what the fuck the assistant district attorney, 314 00:19:18,359 --> 00:19:20,840 Speaker 4: he's not the district attorney, Just to be clear about that, 315 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:25,080 Speaker 4: is basically saying that no one should have believed his witness, 316 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:28,240 Speaker 4: the one he put on the stand, who happens to 317 00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:31,760 Speaker 4: be the lone eye witnessed in two alleged murders by 318 00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:34,399 Speaker 4: Robert Hill on two different occasions. 319 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:37,960 Speaker 9: My head mark is probably still on the roof of 320 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:40,359 Speaker 9: the New York Times office from my jumping up and 321 00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:42,200 Speaker 9: down and realizing that I had hit badr. 322 00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:46,119 Speaker 2: So Frenchie was excited by her discovery. I want to 323 00:19:46,119 --> 00:19:49,320 Speaker 2: point out, though, that what the prosecutor is saying is 324 00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:53,520 Speaker 2: that he'd be stunned if a jury believed Teresa Gomez. 325 00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:56,200 Speaker 2: What he's not saying is that she's lying. 326 00:19:57,160 --> 00:19:59,679 Speaker 4: So Frenchie now has the name of this troubled and 327 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:03,280 Speaker 4: doupling witness, and now she's also got the name of 328 00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:08,719 Speaker 4: the person Teresa help convictive murder want Robert Hill, former 329 00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:12,520 Speaker 4: drug dealer. So Steve, where does she go from here? 330 00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:25,320 Speaker 2: She goes to prison unannounced to find Robert Hill. Frenchie 331 00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:28,400 Speaker 2: is waiting in the visitors room for Robert Hill. He's 332 00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:31,920 Speaker 2: serving eighteen years to life. He's not expecting her. 333 00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:34,760 Speaker 9: So this guy comes in and he walks with a 334 00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:38,160 Speaker 9: cane and he's kind of hunched over and he has. 335 00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:40,960 Speaker 7: Very very long dreadlocks all down his back. 336 00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:47,520 Speaker 9: And I see him looking around the room like, you 337 00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:50,040 Speaker 9: know oo, So I don't see anybody here who's here 338 00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:53,119 Speaker 9: to see me, And so I raised my hands and 339 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:55,480 Speaker 9: he looks at me like, you know, who. 340 00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:56,159 Speaker 7: The heck is that, you know? 341 00:20:56,240 --> 00:20:58,119 Speaker 9: But all right, fine, you know, he doesn't have anything 342 00:20:58,119 --> 00:21:02,719 Speaker 9: better to do. So he sits down and I'll probably 343 00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:04,360 Speaker 9: never forget this moment for the rest of my life. 344 00:21:04,359 --> 00:21:07,119 Speaker 9: I said to him. You know, my name is Francis Rolez. 345 00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:09,840 Speaker 9: I'm a reporter for the New York Times. I'm doing 346 00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:16,680 Speaker 9: a story on Teresa Gomez. And he just froze and 347 00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:21,440 Speaker 9: his eyes welled up with tears, and he said, I've 348 00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:25,359 Speaker 9: been telling people about Teresa Gomez for twenty five years. 349 00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:29,119 Speaker 9: And I said, well, now somebody's listening. 350 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:36,480 Speaker 2: But for Robert Hill, talking about Teresa Gomez is not 351 00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:40,080 Speaker 2: an easy decision. He's about to come up for parole. 352 00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:43,520 Speaker 2: And one of the things that's drilled into somebody applying 353 00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:47,720 Speaker 2: for parole is you got to go in, take responsibility, 354 00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:52,959 Speaker 2: show remorse, you got to ask forgiveness. Now that's going 355 00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:55,399 Speaker 2: to be hard to do if you're also telling a 356 00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:58,480 Speaker 2: New York Times reporter, hey, I didn't do it. 357 00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:01,600 Speaker 9: And he said to me, is this going to mess 358 00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:06,240 Speaker 9: up my parole? And I remember I said something that 359 00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:09,560 Speaker 9: you know, ethically I should not have said, and I 360 00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:13,280 Speaker 9: probably shouldn't even repeat that I said, but I said it. 361 00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:17,200 Speaker 9: I said, this isn't going to mess up your parole. 362 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:21,560 Speaker 9: I said this is going to get you exonerated. And 363 00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:26,400 Speaker 9: I said something so ridiculous because I believed it. 364 00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:32,640 Speaker 2: That's our frenchie. She'll save your life at your peril. 365 00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:37,160 Speaker 2: And Robert Hill, let's face it, he needs his life saved, 366 00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:42,639 Speaker 2: so maybe it's worth the risk. Hill starts talking and 367 00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:48,120 Speaker 2: he tells frenchie Teresa Gomez is a liar. Frenchie goes 368 00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:50,920 Speaker 2: on her way, and soon she's working on a front 369 00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:54,440 Speaker 2: page story for the Times, one that she hopes will 370 00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:56,919 Speaker 2: make a splash. 371 00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:00,680 Speaker 4: Standard journalism practice is to get a comment from everyone 372 00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:04,240 Speaker 4: mentioned in a story, especially a high stake story. Like 373 00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:07,640 Speaker 4: this one. She calls the District Attorney's office. 374 00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:12,159 Speaker 9: It's like six o'clock that Thursday, and I call the 375 00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:15,520 Speaker 9: spokesman and I said, I got a two thousand and 376 00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:20,560 Speaker 9: five hundred word article about all these guys, you know, 377 00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:24,239 Speaker 9: say that they were wrongly accused, and you know what 378 00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:25,879 Speaker 9: it doesn't have It doesn't have a quote from the 379 00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:29,320 Speaker 9: Brooklyn District Attorney's office. Because your quote was so pathetic. 380 00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:31,200 Speaker 9: I said, so we're going to do a doue over 381 00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:36,760 Speaker 9: and it's the one question, do over do you stand 382 00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:39,679 Speaker 9: behind these convictions or not? 383 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:42,800 Speaker 4: That's it. 384 00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:44,879 Speaker 7: We're not going to negotiate a response. 385 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:46,200 Speaker 9: We're not going to be like, oh if the record 386 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:50,720 Speaker 9: background upside down inside out, what's your answer? And so 387 00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:53,280 Speaker 9: the spokesman said, oh, quite back, Okay, call me back, 388 00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:55,760 Speaker 9: say call back, and he said, well, you have to 389 00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:56,200 Speaker 9: come back. 390 00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:57,560 Speaker 2: To the office tomorrow. 391 00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:01,240 Speaker 9: I'm crying out loud. I go to the Brooklyn District 392 00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:03,760 Speaker 9: Attorney's office, sit down, like, all right, what is it. 393 00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:08,600 Speaker 9: We're reopening all of Scarcella's cases. 394 00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:11,919 Speaker 4: And I'm like, oh my god. 395 00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:19,880 Speaker 9: So I go back to the office and I find 396 00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:22,119 Speaker 9: the editor, the same person that had originally asked me 397 00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:23,200 Speaker 9: what connects these cases? 398 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:25,320 Speaker 7: And I said, you're not going to believe this. 399 00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:28,159 Speaker 9: The DA is reopening all of his cases. 400 00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:30,000 Speaker 7: They're going to go back thirty years. 401 00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:34,000 Speaker 9: And her eyes welled up in tears. 402 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:35,160 Speaker 2: And she said, oh my god. 403 00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:36,880 Speaker 7: She goes, these are lies. 404 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:40,240 Speaker 9: These are real lives that you're impacting. 405 00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:48,320 Speaker 4: Frenchie story breaks on May eleventh, twenty thirteen, the headline 406 00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:54,280 Speaker 4: review of fifty Brooklyn murder cases ordered. The story lays 407 00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:57,880 Speaker 4: it all out how Teresa Gomez says she witnessed six 408 00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:03,760 Speaker 4: separate murders. Who's see six murders? And Frenchie tells other 409 00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:08,560 Speaker 4: stories like Shabacca's, how Scarcella told the court he had 410 00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:12,080 Speaker 4: made an incriminating statement that Shabacca says he never made. 411 00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:16,560 Speaker 2: A copy of Frenchi's story eventually arrives at the prison library. 412 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:19,959 Speaker 6: It got spread around, you know, word went like wildfire, 413 00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:22,640 Speaker 6: and everybody had their own copy that they took back 414 00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:23,200 Speaker 6: to their cell. 415 00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:28,199 Speaker 2: By this point, Sabacca's been incarcerated for twenty two years. 416 00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:29,439 Speaker 4: I had a couple of copies. 417 00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:31,920 Speaker 6: I even mail copies out for people like yo, look, 418 00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:35,440 Speaker 6: so we was excited about it. And I think that 419 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:40,960 Speaker 6: that was the first time that I knew, like I 420 00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:44,240 Speaker 6: always thought I was going to get out, But I 421 00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:46,000 Speaker 6: knew I was going to get out. 422 00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:51,720 Speaker 4: Then Sabacca's friend Derek, the one who said all of 423 00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:55,200 Speaker 4: this in motion. At first, he's pleased when he sees 424 00:25:55,240 --> 00:26:01,520 Speaker 4: the article, but then he gets angry. This is personal, 425 00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:06,359 Speaker 4: you see. Scarcela was the cop who arrested Derek for murder, 426 00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:09,399 Speaker 4: a murder, he insists he didn't do. 427 00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:13,720 Speaker 11: You gotta understand something, man, My kids grew up without 428 00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:14,119 Speaker 11: a father. 429 00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:17,680 Speaker 4: This basket was able to raise his. 430 00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:23,639 Speaker 11: This god is a piece of shit, but he gets 431 00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:25,000 Speaker 11: to run around. 432 00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:26,920 Speaker 4: Like he's God. 433 00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:38,000 Speaker 2: It's Derek and his jailhouse law firm that will lead 434 00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:42,040 Speaker 2: the charge against Scarcella. With Derek and Louis, it will 435 00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:45,880 Speaker 2: be a zero some game. If one rises, the other 436 00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:54,880 Speaker 2: must fall. We gotta get at this out. Here's where 437 00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:58,800 Speaker 2: I enter the story. It was a few years after 438 00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:02,640 Speaker 2: Frenchy Scoop. I was a New York magazine journalist. Back then, 439 00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:05,879 Speaker 2: I just moved to a new neighborhood in Brooklyn, and 440 00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:09,000 Speaker 2: on a whim, I decided to open a cocktail bar. 441 00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:12,159 Speaker 2: I did not have a grand vision. There was an 442 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:16,280 Speaker 2: empty space two hundred and twenty four square feet. How 443 00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:20,520 Speaker 2: hard could it be? I called it IRVS after my dad, 444 00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:24,439 Speaker 2: and I loved the place. The neighborhood loved it, The 445 00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:27,680 Speaker 2: people on the block loved it. Some even worked there. 446 00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:32,399 Speaker 2: But that little dead end on which IRVS resided. What 447 00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:37,760 Speaker 2: a block? Old school? Hey, it was like the nineties 448 00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:41,000 Speaker 2: in New York City that block. One day there was 449 00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:45,000 Speaker 2: a guy chasing somebody with a machete. Another day a 450 00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:49,119 Speaker 2: guy ran down the block shooting at someone, fortunately not 451 00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:56,040 Speaker 2: a terrific shot. Intellectually, politically, I'm skeptical of the police. 452 00:27:56,400 --> 00:28:01,199 Speaker 2: I marched in the marches. Their methods sometimes frightened me. 453 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:05,720 Speaker 2: But when violence erupted on my block, the block where 454 00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:10,160 Speaker 2: my bar resided, I needed someone to call. Who else 455 00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:13,560 Speaker 2: was I going to call but the police. It turned 456 00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:16,679 Speaker 2: out that Louis Scarcela had spent a good part of 457 00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:21,560 Speaker 2: his career patrolling my bar's dead end block. And there 458 00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:25,479 Speaker 2: was a moment I found myself wondering if I needed 459 00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:28,880 Speaker 2: a tough cop to come in and restore some order 460 00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:34,600 Speaker 2: so I could run my little business. Later, Louis would 461 00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:39,200 Speaker 2: come by and he'd offer an appraisal, an appraisal which 462 00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:40,080 Speaker 2: proved prophetic. 463 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:46,200 Speaker 4: I remember that bar distinctly. It was where I entered 464 00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:51,120 Speaker 4: the story, coming there one night, sitting down with you 465 00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:54,640 Speaker 4: and having the first big conversation about this series. 466 00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:57,880 Speaker 2: I remember that first night you came, and I remember 467 00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:00,800 Speaker 2: you telling me about your experiences with cops. 468 00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:04,680 Speaker 4: To be clear, there's been more than one, so we 469 00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:07,280 Speaker 4: could be talking about the time I got pulled over 470 00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:09,800 Speaker 4: twice within about twenty minutes because I had a Vanilla 471 00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:11,880 Speaker 4: Roma air freshener in my rear view mirror. 472 00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:14,400 Speaker 2: Yes, you did. But the one I remember, the one 473 00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:17,720 Speaker 2: that made an impression on me, starts with a pull 474 00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:19,200 Speaker 2: up on a scaffold. 475 00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:21,600 Speaker 4: I'm entering my third year of law school, standing on 476 00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:24,760 Speaker 4: a street corner in Adams Morgan and Washington, DC. You know, 477 00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:27,040 Speaker 4: I got my satchel on because at the time I 478 00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:28,840 Speaker 4: used to wear a satchel night right, you know, keep 479 00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:30,720 Speaker 4: my pal my poems in my satchel. And I was 480 00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:32,880 Speaker 4: first starting to grow on my drop my dreads. I'm 481 00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:34,640 Speaker 4: with my buddy, who's a study who the study he 482 00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:38,600 Speaker 4: was at Georgetown Low and he decides to jump up 483 00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:44,840 Speaker 4: on a scaffold and do a pull up. Okay, and 484 00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:46,840 Speaker 4: I think I jumped up into maybe did a pull 485 00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:49,800 Speaker 4: up with me, and we got down. I turned around 486 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:53,680 Speaker 4: the nose a cop. Don't where the fuck that came from? 487 00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:57,200 Speaker 4: Just next to us. Get down on the ground, Get 488 00:29:57,240 --> 00:30:00,800 Speaker 4: down the ground, and I me. You know, having done 489 00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:03,720 Speaker 4: two years of law school at this point, I got it. 490 00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:06,000 Speaker 4: I just I took primp pro. I'm just more like, 491 00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:09,240 Speaker 4: I haven't violated any laws that you're just gonna come 492 00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:12,200 Speaker 4: in broad daylight and tell me to get down. I'm 493 00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:16,600 Speaker 4: get down on my knees. I'm not doing that. I 494 00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:19,200 Speaker 4: don't know what happened. Five more police cars show up, 495 00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:22,880 Speaker 4: and at some point my friend and I get separated. 496 00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:26,480 Speaker 4: Somehow I end up in an alley on my back, 497 00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:28,720 Speaker 4: and these had three or four on me. 498 00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:30,200 Speaker 2: Oh my god. 499 00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:33,600 Speaker 4: My family has Sunday dinner. I don't show up. No 500 00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:37,000 Speaker 4: one knows where I am. 501 00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:40,560 Speaker 2: I remember hearing that story and thinking, man, this is 502 00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:44,920 Speaker 2: crazy law school students doing a pull up and then 503 00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:50,000 Speaker 2: ended up getting beaten by cops. That's just racism, flat out. 504 00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:55,880 Speaker 4: And you'd be right except for one thing. Those cops 505 00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:59,160 Speaker 4: who arrested and beat me they were black. Wow. 506 00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:01,520 Speaker 2: I did not expect that. 507 00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:04,920 Speaker 4: Yeah, most people don't, But for me, what I took 508 00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:07,120 Speaker 4: away from that is that a cop is always a cop, 509 00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:11,520 Speaker 4: always blue, and to cops, I'm a black man, and 510 00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:14,000 Speaker 4: to be a black man, at least in some spaces 511 00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:15,600 Speaker 4: in this country, is to be a suspect. 512 00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:19,800 Speaker 2: Well, here's what I can say. We enter this journey 513 00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:21,640 Speaker 2: through different doors, don't we. 514 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:25,640 Speaker 4: Yes, we do, and it's gonna be quite a ride. 515 00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:32,320 Speaker 2: Buckle up. In this series, we're gonna look at it 516 00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:36,960 Speaker 2: all from the inside. We'll get deep on Scarsella. 517 00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:41,320 Speaker 5: We're here, we're here in the belly of the beast, 518 00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:44,440 Speaker 5: but we're here doing what we got to do, and 519 00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:45,120 Speaker 5: we did it. 520 00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:48,280 Speaker 2: We did God's work and we did it. 521 00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:50,960 Speaker 11: To me, he's no better than a syrial change, right, 522 00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:52,600 Speaker 11: because you chilled people's dreams. 523 00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:56,640 Speaker 8: This diabolical character that he's been depicted as is just 524 00:31:56,840 --> 00:31:58,040 Speaker 8: pure nonsense. 525 00:31:58,080 --> 00:31:59,920 Speaker 2: If he had a great reputation. 526 00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:02,480 Speaker 4: We'll enter a crazy world of violence. 527 00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:04,600 Speaker 8: This guy runs right down the middle of eight their 528 00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:06,560 Speaker 8: view and he's. 529 00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:06,920 Speaker 4: Got a gun. 530 00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:09,680 Speaker 2: Sergeant to you know, shot him. 531 00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:12,240 Speaker 8: He goes down and oh my god, so like the 532 00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:12,920 Speaker 8: wild West. 533 00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:16,760 Speaker 4: And we'll hear from the politicians trying to tame it. 534 00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:20,040 Speaker 9: I ain't prepared to do anything to take back our 535 00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:22,000 Speaker 9: streets by night as well as by day. 536 00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:27,680 Speaker 2: We'll dive into the Brooklyn criminal justice system. She definitely 537 00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:29,400 Speaker 2: testified Hyazac Kite one day. 538 00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:33,240 Speaker 3: He's a judge and he puts his arms around me 539 00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:36,120 Speaker 3: and he says, we both know who this guy is. 540 00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:40,480 Speaker 4: We both know he's guilty, and we'll follow Derek Hamilton 541 00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:43,880 Speaker 4: and his band of convicted murderers who created their own 542 00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:47,880 Speaker 4: law from them behind bars to take on Scarsella and 543 00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:51,480 Speaker 4: fight for their freedom. It's guy's like god when it 544 00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:52,480 Speaker 4: comes to criminal law. 545 00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:56,200 Speaker 11: Everybody knows how to make emotions, but how many times 546 00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:57,480 Speaker 11: do you really know what your burden is? 547 00:32:58,040 --> 00:32:59,720 Speaker 6: Look, man, this is our team right here. 548 00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:00,680 Speaker 2: I team. 549 00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:02,640 Speaker 6: We're gonna work for these cases and we're gonna. 550 00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:06,160 Speaker 2: Get out and targeting the detective at the center of 551 00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:06,600 Speaker 2: it all. 552 00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:11,800 Speaker 11: I say, damn, it's the same fuck or that frame me. 553 00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:21,440 Speaker 5: If I did one nanogram one nanogram of what they 554 00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:24,239 Speaker 5: said I did, and you know what I mean by 555 00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:29,760 Speaker 5: one nanogram and infinitesimal, If I did one of the 556 00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:34,360 Speaker 5: things that they said I did, I would have killed myself. 557 00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:38,200 Speaker 4: I love myself. 558 00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:42,240 Speaker 2: I'm not gonna kill myself. What do you love about yourself? 559 00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:44,800 Speaker 2: I'm gonna tell you. 560 00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:47,160 Speaker 5: I think. 561 00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:51,280 Speaker 2: I'm a very good person. 562 00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:54,880 Speaker 4: Yeah, we'll see about that. 563 00:33:57,400 --> 00:33:59,800 Speaker 2: Next time. On The Burden, I try to get Louis 564 00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:02,680 Speaker 2: go sell it, to give it all up. He used 565 00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:05,440 Speaker 2: to be a talker. Dan with the bad headlines, he 566 00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:09,960 Speaker 2: mostly shut up. Frenchie couldn't get him to talk. But 567 00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:14,160 Speaker 2: I'm on a mission. Turns out that mission starts with 568 00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:16,120 Speaker 2: a plunge into the freezing Atlantic. 569 00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:18,160 Speaker 4: Make sure your baby's gonna come off today? 570 00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:21,759 Speaker 2: Well I did it last time? 571 00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:34,440 Speaker 4: Yeah, it did? Did That's next time. On The Burden, commonstrating. 572 00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:35,000 Speaker 2: You can't run for shelter. 573 00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:42,799 Speaker 4: There's nothing you can't do. The Burden is created by 574 00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:45,880 Speaker 4: Steve Fishman. It's hosted and reported by Steve Fishman and myself, 575 00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:49,839 Speaker 4: Dax Devlin Ross. Our story editor is Dan Bobkoff. Our 576 00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:53,720 Speaker 4: senior producer is Simon Rittner. Our producer is Sonum Skelly. 577 00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:57,360 Speaker 4: Our associate producer is Austin Smith. Our fact checker is 578 00:34:57,480 --> 00:35:02,240 Speaker 4: Sona Abakan production coordinator is Davon Paradise. Mixing and sound 579 00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:05,640 Speaker 4: design is provided by Mumble Media. Our executive producers are 580 00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:09,839 Speaker 4: Fisher Stevens, Steve Fishman, and Evan Williams. Additional production help 581 00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:14,240 Speaker 4: has been provided by Josie Holtzman, Isaac Kestenbaum, Naomi Brauner, 582 00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:20,400 Speaker 4: Lucy Souchek, Drew Nellis, Micah Hazel, Priscilla A. Labi, Saxon Baird, 583 00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:24,400 Speaker 4: Katie Simon and Katie Springer. We want to give us 584 00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:28,880 Speaker 4: special thanks to Ellen Horn, Zach Stuart Pontier, Lizzie Jacobs, 585 00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:33,400 Speaker 4: Nathan Tempe to Buy a Black, Rachel Morrissey, Mark Smirling 586 00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:37,799 Speaker 4: and Lilah Robinson. Special thanks to Marcy Wiseman. We want 587 00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:41,320 Speaker 4: to thank our agents, Ben Davis and Marissa Horowitz. Special 588 00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:42,320 Speaker 4: thanks to my wife Alana. 589 00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:45,160 Speaker 2: Special thanks to Rhea Julian my wife. 590 00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:49,440 Speaker 4: Legal support has been provided by Mona Hoop at MKSR 591 00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:52,800 Speaker 4: ll P, and a very special thanks to Evan Williams, 592 00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:55,160 Speaker 4: one of our executive producers and the person who made 593 00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:58,680 Speaker 4: this podcast possible. We are honored to feature the song 594 00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:02,840 Speaker 4: Black Lightning The Bell Rings is our theme music. The 595 00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:06,320 Speaker 4: Burden is a production of Orbit Media and association with 596 00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:14,279 Speaker 4: Signal Company Number one