WEBVTT - Trauma & Resilience 0:00:08.560 --> 0:00:11.400 This is the Anxiety Bites podcast, and I am your host, 0:00:11.560 --> 0:00:18.880 Jen Kirkman. I'm talking to Professor George Bonano today and 0:00:18.960 --> 0:00:21.680 he's in New York City, and I am also in 0:00:21.720 --> 0:00:23.960 New York City. I'm in Brooklyn, and there's a lot 0:00:23.960 --> 0:00:26.040 of New York talk in this episode. And I just 0:00:26.079 --> 0:00:28.160 find it ironic that I just sat down to record 0:00:28.240 --> 0:00:31.720 this morning and there happens to be construction going on 0:00:32.960 --> 0:00:36.640 in my hallway of my apartment. Not just outside, but 0:00:36.680 --> 0:00:38.520 there's somebody outside my door right now and I can 0:00:38.560 --> 0:00:44.559 hear them. They're doing something to the little plaque outside 0:00:44.560 --> 0:00:48.400 my door. Um that has the you know, the number 0:00:48.479 --> 0:00:51.040 of my apartment. There's not a there's not a plaque 0:00:51.040 --> 0:00:52.920 outside my door honoring me if you thought that's where 0:00:52.960 --> 0:00:56.400 I was going. But I can hear them scraping. And 0:00:56.400 --> 0:01:00.400 then there's someone a little further away doing something with 0:01:00.440 --> 0:01:02.880 a drill that sounds like it's about to come through 0:01:02.920 --> 0:01:05.679 my wall. I don't know if y'all can hear it, 0:01:06.040 --> 0:01:11.200 but I have my little mini kitchen soundproofing system going on, 0:01:11.280 --> 0:01:14.680 So if you don't hear what I'm talking about, a 0:01:14.880 --> 0:01:17.720 the soundproofing works and be all of that was for 0:01:17.760 --> 0:01:21.800 no reason. But if you hear some sounds, that's the 0:01:21.840 --> 0:01:24.840 sound of New York and new things being built. So 0:01:26.120 --> 0:01:31.520 I found this this UM conversation with Professor Banana really 0:01:32.440 --> 0:01:38.400 really interesting because I personally just throw the word trauma 0:01:38.480 --> 0:01:41.440 around as though it's nothing, as though, you know, I'm 0:01:41.480 --> 0:01:45.800 just colloquially just started using it like everyone's got trauma. 0:01:46.640 --> 0:01:49.720 And I think we all kind of do that. And 0:01:49.760 --> 0:01:54.080 I think on one level, it's great when we normalize 0:01:54.120 --> 0:01:57.800 something that we used to think, oh, that's really bad. 0:01:59.280 --> 0:02:01.480 You know, the word case scenario is someone thinking, oh, 0:02:01.560 --> 0:02:06.320 those people are crazy. Some all for normalizing, but I 0:02:06.360 --> 0:02:09.760 also want to get things right and not call something 0:02:10.240 --> 0:02:14.520 something that it isn't. But I think when we adapt 0:02:14.639 --> 0:02:21.000 or adopt expressions kind of on our own, it can 0:02:21.040 --> 0:02:24.799 be hard to let go of them when somebody who's 0:02:24.800 --> 0:02:28.359 actually an expert in this field says, no, that's not 0:02:28.560 --> 0:02:32.880 quite what's going on here. And so I'm wondering if 0:02:32.919 --> 0:02:37.600 anyone listening will feel the same kind of resistance that 0:02:39.480 --> 0:02:42.800 I don't think I felt necessarily talking to to Professor Branano. 0:02:42.840 --> 0:02:48.679 I definitely didn't feel resistance. But II sometimes we'll get 0:02:48.680 --> 0:02:51.560 feedback on this podcast and I think we all listen 0:02:51.639 --> 0:02:54.480 to things very personally from our own lens, and so 0:02:54.600 --> 0:02:57.240 sometimes else get feedback from people that say, oh, well, 0:02:57.280 --> 0:03:01.120 you know you said in this episode that cognitive behavior 0:03:01.200 --> 0:03:04.000 therapy works better for anxiety. But for me, I found 0:03:04.000 --> 0:03:06.080 that going back into my childhood work better. And it's like, 0:03:06.360 --> 0:03:10.240 I never say better or worse, but we might just 0:03:10.240 --> 0:03:14.440 look at different perspectives. And so anyway, I guess I'm 0:03:14.480 --> 0:03:19.320 just defining this episode is this kind of heady, intellectual 0:03:19.360 --> 0:03:27.359 discussion about research as opposed to someone who is diagnosing 0:03:28.080 --> 0:03:31.239 your particular experience with trauma. But I found this very 0:03:31.280 --> 0:03:35.120 interesting and and inspiring. But I do think that sometimes 0:03:35.160 --> 0:03:39.320 when things are inspiring, when we find out that we 0:03:39.400 --> 0:03:42.680 can handle more than we think, I think that sets 0:03:42.760 --> 0:03:46.480 us off into well, I mean, don't make me handle 0:03:46.520 --> 0:03:48.920 more than I think I can handle, or don't don't 0:03:48.960 --> 0:03:53.280 tell me that this isn't some very special diagnosed thing 0:03:53.360 --> 0:03:55.200 that I that I have. I don't. I don't want 0:03:55.200 --> 0:03:58.520 to hear that it's normal, because this is overwhelming. And 0:03:58.560 --> 0:04:00.960 so what Professor Banano and I talked about in this 0:04:01.040 --> 0:04:04.000 episode is that it's sort of being tossed around that 0:04:04.040 --> 0:04:06.800 America is in a mental health crisis post COVID, and 0:04:07.640 --> 0:04:10.080 I think the very nuanced way that he's talking about 0:04:10.080 --> 0:04:13.160 it is that we are in an extraordinary amount of stress, 0:04:13.920 --> 0:04:17.320 which is actually not good for the body, and we 0:04:17.400 --> 0:04:21.320 are not built for it. Like the human evolution is 0:04:21.360 --> 0:04:26.000 built for acute stress, which means sudden onset, short burst 0:04:26.120 --> 0:04:31.839 kind of, but not mild to moderate ongoing stress, which 0:04:31.880 --> 0:04:35.400 is what being in a global pandemic despite vaccines and 0:04:35.520 --> 0:04:40.680 masks is, Like, you know, we're still going through it. 0:04:41.560 --> 0:04:45.560 Two years later. We still could catch something, We still 0:04:45.600 --> 0:04:47.800 could give something to someone, We still could have family 0:04:47.839 --> 0:04:49.800 members that are sick. You know, it could still affect 0:04:49.800 --> 0:04:53.440 our jobs. And it's just this sort of low level, 0:04:53.920 --> 0:04:56.400 mild to moderate stress that we live with every day. 0:04:56.400 --> 0:04:58.400 And again, the body is not designed for that. So 0:04:59.320 --> 0:05:02.479 I think in this episode, you know, and I hope 0:05:02.520 --> 0:05:04.679 I don't sound insulting, like, um, I hope you guys 0:05:04.720 --> 0:05:06.160 get what we're going for here, But I just want 0:05:06.200 --> 0:05:07.880 to be very clear that I think in this episode, 0:05:07.880 --> 0:05:11.320 what what Professor Barano was saying and what we're talking 0:05:11.360 --> 0:05:15.040 about is really that that's no picnic either. It's just 0:05:15.120 --> 0:05:18.839 not the literal definition of trauma because trauma is something else, 0:05:18.839 --> 0:05:21.560 And so that that led me to what's so interesting 0:05:21.600 --> 0:05:24.480 about Professor Banano's new book, which is called the End 0:05:24.520 --> 0:05:27.799 of Trauma, How the new science of resilience is changing 0:05:27.800 --> 0:05:31.520 how we think about PTSD. And PTSD is something I 0:05:31.520 --> 0:05:34.520 throw around a lot. Oh, we've all got PTSD from 0:05:34.600 --> 0:05:36.440 you know, the last couple of years or whatever. And 0:05:36.880 --> 0:05:39.960 you know, PTSD is a diagnosis, it's an actual thing, 0:05:40.480 --> 0:05:42.520 and for those of you who have it, you're going, Yeah, 0:05:42.560 --> 0:05:44.680 everyone's walking around saying they've got it, and it's like 0:05:45.320 --> 0:05:49.359 it's sort of a just a little phrase we throw around, 0:05:49.360 --> 0:05:53.160 you know, like I don't know, I'm hungry. It's like 0:05:53.200 --> 0:05:58.760 I've got PTSD, and it's a great quick way to 0:05:59.640 --> 0:06:04.480 commune nicate that you're feeling sort of tossed around. But again, 0:06:04.520 --> 0:06:06.720 it's really just what the mild and moderate stress is 0:06:06.760 --> 0:06:11.200 doing to your body, because that can actually create physical 0:06:11.279 --> 0:06:16.400 problems and it du equilibriates us. And so in a 0:06:16.440 --> 0:06:18.799 weird way, I just didn't want anyone to think people 0:06:18.839 --> 0:06:23.920 with actual experience experiencing a traumatic event or having PTSD 0:06:24.000 --> 0:06:26.040 were being in any way disrespective, because I think what 0:06:26.080 --> 0:06:28.400 Professor Banano's book is trying to do is quite the 0:06:28.440 --> 0:06:32.360 opposite is to shine a light more on what PTSD 0:06:32.560 --> 0:06:36.119 actually is, and shina light more on what it isn't 0:06:36.880 --> 0:06:41.320 so that we can learn how to cope. So I 0:06:41.360 --> 0:06:43.680 thought this was a very fascinating chat. So I'll just 0:06:43.720 --> 0:06:46.080 tell you a little bit more about his new book, 0:06:46.120 --> 0:06:48.720 The End of Trauma. And actually another one of my 0:06:48.800 --> 0:06:52.080 guests who you haven't heard the episode yet, she is 0:06:52.120 --> 0:06:56.039 a neuroscientist and Boston. She recommended that I read this 0:06:56.080 --> 0:06:58.120 book and that I have Dr Bnano on the air, 0:06:59.520 --> 0:07:03.520 and so, uh, this is the description from Amazon. In 0:07:03.560 --> 0:07:07.000 the End of Trauma, Pioneering psychologist George A. Banano argues 0:07:07.040 --> 0:07:10.240 that we failed to predict the psychological response to nine 0:07:10.280 --> 0:07:13.640 eleven because most of what we understand about trauma is wrong. 0:07:14.160 --> 0:07:16.679 For starters, it's not nearly as common as we think. 0:07:16.960 --> 0:07:21.640 In fact, people are overwhelmingly resilient to adversity. What we 0:07:21.720 --> 0:07:26.280 often interpret as PTSD are signs of a natural process 0:07:26.360 --> 0:07:29.320 of learning how to deal with a specific situation. We 0:07:29.480 --> 0:07:33.480 can cope far more effectively if we understand how this 0:07:33.560 --> 0:07:38.320 process works. Drawing on four decades of research, Banano explains 0:07:38.400 --> 0:07:42.320 what makes us resilient, why we sometimes aren't, and how 0:07:42.360 --> 0:07:46.360 we can better handle traumatic stress. So I thought this 0:07:46.440 --> 0:07:50.120 was particularly interesting as well because recently this past year, 0:07:50.280 --> 0:07:56.480 I started thinking about my nine eleven quote trauma um. 0:07:56.520 --> 0:07:58.120 I was in New York and eleven. I was not 0:07:58.240 --> 0:08:00.920 in the building. I was a mile away. I was 0:08:01.160 --> 0:08:07.320 really not directly affected by it, and I was wondering recently, 0:08:09.280 --> 0:08:12.239 do I have trauma from nine eleven? Now? I don't 0:08:12.440 --> 0:08:14.720 in the sense I'm not I get on airplanes. I 0:08:14.760 --> 0:08:17.320 still don't like tall buildings, never have. But I believe 0:08:17.400 --> 0:08:21.120 that's unrelated because when I have fear of being in 0:08:21.160 --> 0:08:24.320 an elevator going into a tall building, I'm not thinking 0:08:24.360 --> 0:08:26.080 a plane is going to crash into it, but I'm 0:08:26.120 --> 0:08:30.440 I'm just uncomfortable. I don't like being in a tall building, right, So, 0:08:31.160 --> 0:08:33.360 but I remember on A eleven I just sort of 0:08:33.400 --> 0:08:36.000 went into It didn't feel like it. It didn't feel 0:08:36.040 --> 0:08:39.200 like shock. I've been in shock before, getting crazy bad news, 0:08:39.679 --> 0:08:42.040 hearing about the death of someone unexpected, but it wasn't 0:08:42.080 --> 0:08:43.880 that kind of feeling. It was more of a numb 0:08:44.600 --> 0:08:47.240 and I didn't have any panic or anxiety that day. 0:08:47.280 --> 0:08:52.000 I certainly had concerns grief, a million emotions, but I 0:08:52.280 --> 0:08:56.240 specifically was not having panic attacks or feelings of generalized 0:08:56.240 --> 0:08:58.720 anxiety that day, which was odd because I had them 0:08:58.760 --> 0:09:02.760 every day, uh quote, for no reason, as as that 0:09:02.800 --> 0:09:06.360 tends to go. And on nine eleven, I didn't need 0:09:06.440 --> 0:09:09.440 to take my reserve klonopin, I didn't need to do 0:09:09.520 --> 0:09:13.839 breathing exercises, and I sort of self diagnosed, Oh well, 0:09:13.880 --> 0:09:16.000 maybe I was in shock, and maybe I never came 0:09:16.000 --> 0:09:17.800 out of the shock, and I wonder if I'm traumatized. 0:09:18.240 --> 0:09:20.360 And reading his book, I realized, Oh no, I just 0:09:21.520 --> 0:09:24.200 went into a sort of resiliency that that we go 0:09:24.240 --> 0:09:26.320 into now. Again, that might be different than someone who 0:09:26.440 --> 0:09:28.959 is actually in the towers and ran out and escaped. 0:09:29.000 --> 0:09:32.240 Of course I don't expect that. Um, we had the 0:09:32.280 --> 0:09:36.160 same physical body response that day. But oh, did you 0:09:36.200 --> 0:09:38.160 just hear my email? Ding? I hate that when I 0:09:38.200 --> 0:09:40.800 forget to turn off my email when I'm recording it 0:09:40.880 --> 0:09:43.760 sounds so unprofessed, you guys, but I'm not editing it out. 0:09:45.480 --> 0:09:49.800 So there's a little nine eleven talking here, And uh again, 0:09:49.840 --> 0:09:53.760 that's sort of how he began this book, is doing 0:09:53.840 --> 0:09:59.760 research into why nobody was getting mental health help around 0:09:59.800 --> 0:10:03.320 that time, even though it was being offered freely, and 0:10:03.360 --> 0:10:06.000 it's a it's a really interesting discussion. I think that 0:10:06.080 --> 0:10:08.440 you will find, as I did reading the book, that 0:10:08.559 --> 0:10:10.920 every once in a while, my internal prejudice of what 0:10:11.080 --> 0:10:14.160 I think trauma is what I think PTSD is pops 0:10:14.280 --> 0:10:17.720 up and it's like, I'm not a forty year professor 0:10:17.840 --> 0:10:21.720 and psychologist, so I'm going to defer to the experts. 0:10:21.760 --> 0:10:25.040 So let's defer to the expert right now. My guest 0:10:25.080 --> 0:10:29.960 today is George Banano, PhD. He heads up the Lost 0:10:30.080 --> 0:10:33.280 Trauma and Emotion Lab, which is housed in the Department 0:10:33.360 --> 0:10:37.800 of Counseling and Clinical Psychology Teachers College, Columbia University in 0:10:37.800 --> 0:10:40.400 New York City. The lab is devoted to the question 0:10:40.440 --> 0:10:43.600 of how humans cope with loss, potential, trauma, and other 0:10:43.720 --> 0:10:47.600 forms of extreme life events. For the past twenty five years, 0:10:47.640 --> 0:10:51.000 their research has attempted to document the variety of outcomes 0:10:51.000 --> 0:10:54.320 that people show in response to such events, as well 0:10:54.360 --> 0:10:58.640 as the factors that predict these outcomes. They've been especially 0:10:58.679 --> 0:11:02.680 interested in advancing search and theory about resilience in the 0:11:02.760 --> 0:11:07.600 face of extreme adversity and the salutary role played by personality, emotion, 0:11:07.800 --> 0:11:12.840 and coping, and in particular emotional regulation, flexibility in moderating 0:11:12.880 --> 0:11:17.679 how aversive events impact our lives. Professor Banano has a 0:11:17.760 --> 0:11:21.240 new book that came out UM a few months ago. 0:11:21.400 --> 0:11:24.600 In it is called The End of Trauma. How the 0:11:24.640 --> 0:11:29.120 new science of resilience is changing how we think about PTSD. 0:11:29.760 --> 0:11:38.760 Let's talk to Professor Bonano. Now. This interview will, I think, 0:11:38.880 --> 0:11:42.440 challenge a lot of people, because I believe that, you know, 0:11:42.480 --> 0:11:44.760 we all come to reading a book or hearing an 0:11:44.760 --> 0:11:50.520 interview with our own experiences or prejudices or triggers. It 0:11:50.640 --> 0:11:55.240 must be very confronting to hear someone say, you know, 0:11:55.520 --> 0:11:58.920 trauma isn't as common as we think it is. PTSD 0:11:59.120 --> 0:12:02.520 is not as common as we think it is. We're 0:12:02.559 --> 0:12:04.520 a lot more resilient. And I want to talk later 0:12:04.559 --> 0:12:07.120 about that word, and you know, we'll get into the 0:12:07.160 --> 0:12:10.120 nitty gritty of the book, but in general, can you 0:12:10.160 --> 0:12:12.840 explain to me what made you want to do this 0:12:12.960 --> 0:12:17.600 research or you know, how how did you fall into this? Well, 0:12:17.720 --> 0:12:20.720 those are all great questions, Jed. The reason I wanted 0:12:20.720 --> 0:12:24.439 to do this research was an accident. UM. I had 0:12:24.520 --> 0:12:30.120 been studying experimental research. I was a clinical psychologist doing 0:12:30.200 --> 0:12:33.959 experimental work, and I decided I needed to switch gears 0:12:33.960 --> 0:12:36.880 a little bit, switch directions a little bit, because I 0:12:36.920 --> 0:12:40.800 had been really almost lost in the details of the experiment, 0:12:41.240 --> 0:12:43.439 which is is quite fun if you have a mind 0:12:43.480 --> 0:12:48.360 for it, but I was getting removed from the nature 0:12:48.400 --> 0:12:49.920 of what the work I really wanted to do, which 0:12:49.920 --> 0:12:52.880 had to do with trying to understand people's experience in 0:12:52.880 --> 0:12:56.320 in aversive situations. And I was offered a position in 0:12:56.440 --> 0:13:00.880 San Francisco when I got my PhD um study doing bereavement, 0:13:00.960 --> 0:13:03.520 heading a bereavement project. And I didn't know anything about 0:13:03.520 --> 0:13:06.920 bereavement at the time, which turned out to be to 0:13:07.120 --> 0:13:10.800 my great advantage because the literature and bereavement is really 0:13:10.840 --> 0:13:12.679 out of date, or it was really out of date 0:13:12.760 --> 0:13:17.040 at the time. This is sorry, I just dated myself 0:13:17.160 --> 0:13:21.600 right there. But in one and UM, when I first 0:13:21.640 --> 0:13:24.000 began to look at the literature, I really kind of 0:13:24.040 --> 0:13:26.520 couldn't I was shocked. I kind of couldn't believe it 0:13:26.840 --> 0:13:29.640 because I thought, well, this is really at odds with 0:13:29.720 --> 0:13:33.640 everything we know now in psychology, and and this doesn't 0:13:33.679 --> 0:13:36.280 make any sense. At the time, the literature sort of 0:13:36.440 --> 0:13:40.000 was that that grief is this this really difficult thing 0:13:40.040 --> 0:13:42.360 for everybody, which it is it's a very difficult thing 0:13:42.400 --> 0:13:46.280 for almost everybody, but it lasts a long time and 0:13:46.360 --> 0:13:48.800 you have to engage. It worked really hard and to 0:13:49.120 --> 0:13:52.040 do many months, even a year or sor two of 0:13:52.160 --> 0:13:55.120 suffering if you want to come out on the other 0:13:55.200 --> 0:13:57.480 side of it. And that didn't make any sense to 0:13:57.520 --> 0:14:01.040 me from an evolutionary perspective, from the perspective I knew 0:14:01.040 --> 0:14:03.680 in psychology. Sorry, it didn't make any sense to you 0:14:03.720 --> 0:14:06.760 that grieving kind of takes a long time. You're saying 0:14:06.760 --> 0:14:09.640 from an evolutionary standpoint, you're understanding when you read this 0:14:10.840 --> 0:14:14.079 relic that not really were more resilient than that. Is 0:14:14.080 --> 0:14:17.040 that what you mean? Well, basically, um, I suppose I 0:14:17.080 --> 0:14:20.160 didn't at the time, I hadn't used the word resilience, 0:14:20.200 --> 0:14:22.920 that the concept hadn't been applied really in these in 0:14:23.000 --> 0:14:29.400 these settings before. But I didn't quite explain this clear enough. 0:14:29.440 --> 0:14:32.560 I think, Um, the idea at the time was that 0:14:32.600 --> 0:14:35.680 people were kind of debilitated by the loss for a 0:14:35.720 --> 0:14:38.400 period of time, and that most people needed the help 0:14:38.400 --> 0:14:41.200 of therapists in order to get through it. That didn't 0:14:41.200 --> 0:14:44.360 make any sense because you know, up until recently, we 0:14:44.360 --> 0:14:47.280 were nomadic, we were hunter gatherers, We didn't have the 0:14:47.400 --> 0:14:50.680 luxury of that, so I was curious about this. Maybe 0:14:50.680 --> 0:14:52.680 I was wrong, but you know, it didn't make sense 0:14:52.720 --> 0:14:55.200 to me. So I had the luxury at the time 0:14:55.320 --> 0:14:57.760 of coming into a project that had a good deal 0:14:57.800 --> 0:15:01.640 of financial resources, and we set out to test this idea, 0:15:01.720 --> 0:15:03.600 to do the kind of studies that I was also 0:15:03.680 --> 0:15:06.760 surprised nobody was doing. We got large groups of people 0:15:06.800 --> 0:15:10.000 and followed them over time, and really most of the 0:15:10.120 --> 0:15:14.440 work at that time was primarily done with a focus 0:15:14.480 --> 0:15:17.600 on people who were suffering. People were coming into therapy, 0:15:17.680 --> 0:15:20.400 people who in a sense had extreme levels of grief, 0:15:20.840 --> 0:15:23.000 and I set out to just kind of, you know, 0:15:23.520 --> 0:15:26.880 anybody who lost a love and within recently, within a 0:15:26.960 --> 0:15:30.040 recent period of time we wanted into study. And when 0:15:30.120 --> 0:15:32.560 we did that right away, we saw that most people 0:15:32.720 --> 0:15:36.920 were highly resilient. Most people they had pain when we 0:15:36.920 --> 0:15:38.880 asked them to talk about you know, we invited them 0:15:38.920 --> 0:15:41.480 up to the university, and you know, it's a kind 0:15:41.520 --> 0:15:43.760 of an intense thing if you've been through a loss 0:15:43.800 --> 0:15:46.880 and researchers invite you up to interview them. There's a 0:15:46.960 --> 0:15:50.280 kind of a you know, way did feel to it. 0:15:50.360 --> 0:15:52.520 So people got very upset when we talked to them, 0:15:52.560 --> 0:15:55.320 but you could also see that they were functioning just fine. 0:15:55.720 --> 0:15:59.120 And so we began to report this and to you know, 0:15:59.200 --> 0:16:03.280 to the research findings, and then you know, of course, 0:16:03.280 --> 0:16:05.760 there was a lot of pushback from the bribing community. 0:16:06.120 --> 0:16:08.640 We went, oh, we bent over backwards to try to 0:16:08.760 --> 0:16:11.960 verify these reselves. We had friends makes ratings of them, 0:16:12.320 --> 0:16:16.000 we had independent therapists interview them to you know, give 0:16:16.080 --> 0:16:19.520 us their judgment, and basically all of this corroborative. Daddy 0:16:19.600 --> 0:16:23.240 that that the majority of people were basically living their 0:16:23.280 --> 0:16:26.840 lives still. They were by the basic criteria you would imagine. 0:16:26.840 --> 0:16:30.080 They're they're able to concentrate, to to do work and 0:16:30.120 --> 0:16:32.320 to do things that they needed to, and they were 0:16:32.320 --> 0:16:35.160 able to have loving feelings and interactions with other people. 0:16:35.240 --> 0:16:37.720 They were Those are the two basic things that go 0:16:37.840 --> 0:16:39.640 way back in terms of what we think of health. 0:16:40.000 --> 0:16:42.840 So we did that a number of times, we replicated 0:16:42.840 --> 0:16:45.720 a number of times, and then faith intervened again. I 0:16:45.800 --> 0:16:49.520 came to New York, and not long after I came 0:16:49.520 --> 0:16:52.280 to New York, not eleven happen, And so we began 0:16:52.360 --> 0:16:54.720 to study it on eleven in the same way, and 0:16:54.760 --> 0:16:57.360 we've just continued down that path. When I say we, 0:16:57.480 --> 0:17:01.800 I mean my research team. We've continued on that path, UM, 0:17:01.880 --> 0:17:04.760 and we've been finding over and over and over that 0:17:04.800 --> 0:17:08.360 the majority of people are resilient after the most high 0:17:08.440 --> 0:17:11.879 leverse events you can think of, um, not everybody. And 0:17:11.920 --> 0:17:14.679 that's a crucial thing you asked about trauma initially. I 0:17:14.680 --> 0:17:19.359 don't ever say trauma PTSD don't exist, right that we 0:17:19.520 --> 0:17:23.600 always identify it the pattern we whether it's PTSD or 0:17:23.720 --> 0:17:27.040 just what we call a chronically elevated symptoms. You know, 0:17:27.080 --> 0:17:31.000 we model these trajectories. We always see that. But it's 0:17:31.080 --> 0:17:34.560 you know, it's not fifty and that's sixty. Is it 0:17:34.640 --> 0:17:39.440 was commonly believed or most people. It's a relatively small percentage, 0:17:39.800 --> 0:17:45.080 usually around five to sometimes higher UM. But it's not 0:17:45.160 --> 0:17:47.159 you know, at the time, it was believed that the 0:17:47.200 --> 0:17:51.320 majority of people would have PTSD after high levels events, 0:17:51.400 --> 0:17:53.800 or at least you know, a large number, and it's 0:17:53.840 --> 0:17:56.600 it's typically not. Well, let me take it back to 0:17:57.280 --> 0:17:58.960 what you originally said, and I'm just going to go 0:17:59.000 --> 0:18:02.280 into the mind of one listening because again I I 0:18:03.880 --> 0:18:05.680 for me with this podcast, I was trying to get 0:18:05.680 --> 0:18:07.119 into the mind of the listener, in the mind of 0:18:07.160 --> 0:18:09.919 someone with anxiety. Who I think in a lot of 0:18:09.960 --> 0:18:12.720 ways it can be almost an attack on our identity 0:18:12.760 --> 0:18:15.680 when we're told certain things if we're not listening carefully. 0:18:15.760 --> 0:18:19.760 So I just want to reiterate the most important thing 0:18:19.760 --> 0:18:22.160 you said is the word debilitated. Right, So you're talking 0:18:22.200 --> 0:18:25.040 about you're reading these studies and you know when people 0:18:25.080 --> 0:18:27.800 are going through bereavement, they need all of this support 0:18:27.840 --> 0:18:29.840 and they need therapy and blah blah blah, and you're thinking, well, 0:18:29.840 --> 0:18:32.119 wait a minute, how could that be true. You know, 0:18:32.560 --> 0:18:34.439 we were nomadic and then that now I can hear 0:18:34.480 --> 0:18:36.840 someone saying, well, things are getting better, and you know 0:18:36.920 --> 0:18:39.359 we don't have to live like blah blah blah. We 0:18:39.440 --> 0:18:41.760 have therapists and let's all, you know, be open to 0:18:41.800 --> 0:18:44.600 it and stop you know, being such a boomer and 0:18:44.640 --> 0:18:47.239 saying that you know, we're too sensitive and you're not 0:18:47.280 --> 0:18:50.840 saying that, You're saying it doesn't make sense because you're 0:18:50.960 --> 0:18:54.679 you're not noticing people are debilitated, which is a very 0:18:54.680 --> 0:18:57.720 specific thing, which means you wouldn't be able to work, 0:18:57.760 --> 0:19:00.560 you wouldn't have feelings of love, you wouldn't and of 0:19:00.600 --> 0:19:03.400 course we all go through bereavement and we do have 0:19:03.560 --> 0:19:05.800 days or whatever where we can't work. But you were 0:19:05.840 --> 0:19:09.040 saying it is not destroying people to the point where 0:19:09.119 --> 0:19:12.120 humanity can't continue. There needs to be a little more 0:19:12.200 --> 0:19:17.120 nuanced in this. Uh, look at what suffering isn't isn't 0:19:17.200 --> 0:19:20.600 is that kind? No, that's absolutely right. And some people 0:19:20.640 --> 0:19:24.600 are debilitated. And then what we've identified in all of 0:19:24.600 --> 0:19:28.720 this work, some people are debilitated. Some people struggle very 0:19:28.760 --> 0:19:31.920 hard for a while and they are sort of almost 0:19:31.960 --> 0:19:35.280 debilitated or you know, barely functioning, and then they get better. 0:19:35.720 --> 0:19:38.800 We have identity that pattern. And then sometimes people are 0:19:38.840 --> 0:19:42.320 doing not so well but barely getting by, but they're 0:19:42.320 --> 0:19:44.480 still functioning, and then they get a little worse. We've 0:19:44.480 --> 0:19:48.000 seen all these patterns and then again the resilience pattern, 0:19:48.080 --> 0:19:52.000 we called it the resilience trajectory. That's always the majority. 0:19:52.040 --> 0:19:55.479 And we've looked at this on average across all the studies. 0:19:55.520 --> 0:19:58.439 At this point, our team or other people's teams have 0:19:58.520 --> 0:20:01.879 done sixty seven studies like this using big samples and 0:20:01.920 --> 0:20:05.640 following people over time, little samples, whatever we have, And 0:20:05.840 --> 0:20:10.000 in those sixties seven studies, the average prevalence of this 0:20:10.119 --> 0:20:14.760 resilience trajectory was about two thirds, so two thirds is 0:20:14.800 --> 0:20:17.800 a lot. It's the majority, but it still means one 0:20:17.880 --> 0:20:21.720 third may be struggling either a short term or long term, 0:20:22.000 --> 0:20:26.199 with with some problems not necessarily debilitating, and some for 0:20:26.280 --> 0:20:29.840 some debilitating, but also many people who are struggling but 0:20:29.960 --> 0:20:33.160 still functioning and still getting out with their life. And 0:20:33.320 --> 0:20:35.200 you know, I always want to make sure I point 0:20:35.200 --> 0:20:37.719 that out, or at least I'm glad that you're thankful 0:20:37.760 --> 0:20:40.600 to you for clarifying it that, um, those are the 0:20:40.640 --> 0:20:43.200 patterns we see. Well, that's great, and I want to 0:20:43.200 --> 0:20:46.000 talk about because I was there as well and in 0:20:46.080 --> 0:20:49.880 New York, and I have actually ironic that I read 0:20:49.920 --> 0:20:53.960 your book because recently I've been claiming I have trauma 0:20:54.000 --> 0:20:56.280 from it and I don't think I do UM in 0:20:56.320 --> 0:20:59.000 that sense. So I want to get your analysis of this. 0:20:59.080 --> 0:21:01.720 But you know, on this podcast, which is about anxiety, 0:21:01.840 --> 0:21:04.280 I'm very big into saying, you know, everybody has anxiety. 0:21:04.320 --> 0:21:07.520 In my opinion, it's the default human condition. It's obviously 0:21:07.640 --> 0:21:11.119 just a spectrum. But I feel like lately we've been 0:21:11.160 --> 0:21:14.520 throwing around the words trauma and PTSD in the same way, 0:21:15.160 --> 0:21:17.880 and you know, from reading your book it's just not true. 0:21:17.920 --> 0:21:20.679 And I did recently read somewhere else that PTSD is 0:21:20.680 --> 0:21:24.640 now not considered an anxiety disorder right, it's it's been 0:21:25.240 --> 0:21:28.600 moved into its own category. Well, that whether there is 0:21:28.600 --> 0:21:31.560 an anxiety because or or not is I think almost 0:21:31.560 --> 0:21:36.320 the pointless discussion, because I don't know if I've said 0:21:36.320 --> 0:21:38.280 it much in the book. I think I did actually, 0:21:38.280 --> 0:21:42.520 But the the whole d s M the diagnostic Manual, 0:21:42.560 --> 0:21:45.679 I think is I don't put much stock in it 0:21:45.760 --> 0:21:50.320 because it's not scientific. It's basically done by committee, and 0:21:50.359 --> 0:21:53.239 the committees are are fight with each other. It's not 0:21:53.280 --> 0:21:55.560 a pretty sight. I tell you, I've seen some of it. 0:21:55.560 --> 0:21:58.000 It's not a pretty sight. Oh, I'd love to watch 0:21:58.080 --> 0:22:01.119 the documentary about that. I see that information. I didn't know. 0:22:01.160 --> 0:22:03.359 That sounds kind of well, there have been there's many 0:22:03.400 --> 0:22:06.320 books have been written about with you know, with good correspondence. 0:22:06.320 --> 0:22:08.760 And the original people who did the d s M three, 0:22:08.800 --> 0:22:10.480 the d s M three was the one that really 0:22:10.520 --> 0:22:13.480 took hold in this country. The third version and the 0:22:13.520 --> 0:22:17.639 people who created that one um the sort of the 0:22:17.760 --> 0:22:21.119 leading people are now very critical of the more recent 0:22:21.160 --> 0:22:24.480 incarnations of the d s M UM And basically it's 0:22:24.560 --> 0:22:27.040 apart from the fighting and you know all those things. 0:22:27.480 --> 0:22:32.000 It's basically not a scientific document, and it's basically um, 0:22:32.040 --> 0:22:36.719 it's susceptible to social forces, to political forces, and you know, 0:22:36.800 --> 0:22:39.639 it's it has the illusion of being a scientific document, 0:22:39.680 --> 0:22:42.800 which I think is dangerous because it is not. And 0:22:42.840 --> 0:22:46.520 the prevalence of the idea of trauma and PTSD and 0:22:46.560 --> 0:22:49.720 the literally in the in the popular world makes me 0:22:49.920 --> 0:22:52.840 very uneasy because I think it's dangerous. First of all, 0:22:52.920 --> 0:22:57.440 it belittles the experience of those people who generally have PTSD, 0:22:57.800 --> 0:23:00.880 who generally suffered trauma. But if I think a lot 0:23:00.960 --> 0:23:05.800 of the confusion comes from the failure to I mean 0:23:05.840 --> 0:23:08.840 that it's partly the diagnosis, the fault of the diagnosis, 0:23:08.880 --> 0:23:12.359