1 00:00:15,316 --> 00:00:28,556 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Susanne Blamire's left school with good grades in psychology, 2 00:00:28,716 --> 00:00:33,476 Speaker 1: sociology and English literature. Her mother took great pride and 3 00:00:33,556 --> 00:00:38,436 Speaker 1: how bright and articulate she was. When she wasn't studying 4 00:00:38,836 --> 00:00:42,716 Speaker 1: or horseback riding, Susanne worked in a care home. Her 5 00:00:42,836 --> 00:00:45,836 Speaker 1: duties there and the people she helped inspired her to 6 00:00:45,876 --> 00:00:49,956 Speaker 1: train as a nurse, and she enrolled in college. But 7 00:00:50,076 --> 00:00:53,156 Speaker 1: a drug habit and the constant need for money to 8 00:00:53,236 --> 00:00:57,676 Speaker 1: feed it pushed Susanne in a different direction and to 9 00:00:57,756 --> 00:01:00,476 Speaker 1: adopt an alter ego that she hid from her family. 10 00:01:01,556 --> 00:01:06,556 Speaker 1: She became Amber, a sex worker. I hated her being 11 00:01:06,556 --> 00:01:10,356 Speaker 1: a prostitute, said her boyfriend. I turned a blind eye 12 00:01:10,436 --> 00:01:16,076 Speaker 1: because we needed the cash. In twenty ten, age thirty six, 13 00:01:16,476 --> 00:01:19,996 Speaker 1: and years on from her own college studies, Susanne was 14 00:01:19,996 --> 00:01:24,476 Speaker 1: approached by a graduate student. He was pursuing a doctorate 15 00:01:24,476 --> 00:01:27,756 Speaker 1: in criminology at the nearby university, but he seemed to 16 00:01:27,756 --> 00:01:30,236 Speaker 1: have a special interest in the women who worked in 17 00:01:30,236 --> 00:01:34,396 Speaker 1: the red light area near his home. He'd photograph them 18 00:01:34,556 --> 00:01:39,596 Speaker 1: for an exhibition, he'd explain. Susanne accompanied him back to 19 00:01:39,676 --> 00:01:43,516 Speaker 1: his apartment. As they approached his door, they chatted amicably, 20 00:01:44,276 --> 00:01:48,276 Speaker 1: perhaps He was telling her about his studies, his PhD thesis, 21 00:01:48,316 --> 00:01:53,156 Speaker 1: and his focus on homicide in the Victorian era. As 22 00:01:53,196 --> 00:01:56,516 Speaker 1: Susanne entered the flat, she would have seen a large bookcase, 23 00:01:57,156 --> 00:02:01,236 Speaker 1: shelf after shelf of true crime and book after book 24 00:02:01,596 --> 00:02:05,916 Speaker 1: about a man. Her host seemed to genuinely admire Jack 25 00:02:05,996 --> 00:02:12,836 Speaker 1: the Ripper, and then behind Suzanne, the apartment door shut. 26 00:02:17,036 --> 00:02:21,316 Speaker 1: I'm Halley Rubin, hold, you're listening to Bad Women. The 27 00:02:21,396 --> 00:02:25,356 Speaker 1: Ripper retold a series about the real lives of the 28 00:02:25,396 --> 00:02:28,556 Speaker 1: women killed by Jack the Ripper and how we got 29 00:02:28,596 --> 00:02:39,436 Speaker 1: their stories so wrong. One side, money plenty and friends 30 00:02:39,516 --> 00:02:49,396 Speaker 1: too by the score. Then fortune smiled upon me. Now 31 00:02:49,796 --> 00:03:05,956 Speaker 1: one pass my dome, aloney and not we Harne seems 32 00:03:06,156 --> 00:03:23,636 Speaker 1: to line me. I'm co Susanne Lamiers entered the apartment 33 00:03:23,676 --> 00:03:26,636 Speaker 1: of Stephen Griffiths in the early hours of a Saturday. 34 00:03:27,556 --> 00:03:30,996 Speaker 1: On the following Monday morning, the building's custodian sat down 35 00:03:30,996 --> 00:03:34,196 Speaker 1: to review the weekend surveillance camera footage. It was a 36 00:03:34,276 --> 00:03:38,916 Speaker 1: routine chaw checking for minor antisocial behavior, but what he 37 00:03:38,996 --> 00:03:44,956 Speaker 1: saw unfold on the screen would sicken and appall him. 38 00:03:44,996 --> 00:03:49,036 Speaker 1: A terrified Suzanne fled from the apartment just Minutes after 39 00:03:49,076 --> 00:03:53,836 Speaker 1: her arrival, Griffiths pursued her, and then, well aware that 40 00:03:53,876 --> 00:03:57,876 Speaker 1: he was being filmed, he brutally murdered Susanne and dragged 41 00:03:57,916 --> 00:04:01,236 Speaker 1: her body back to his flat to carry out yet 42 00:04:01,316 --> 00:04:08,076 Speaker 1: more unspeakable acts. The custodian hurriedly called the police. Griffiths 43 00:04:08,396 --> 00:04:11,836 Speaker 1: was waiting when they arrived, and was only too happy 44 00:04:11,956 --> 00:04:18,756 Speaker 1: to brag about other similar murders he'd committed. Reading true 45 00:04:18,796 --> 00:04:22,516 Speaker 1: crime books certainly doesn't make you into a murderer and 46 00:04:22,716 --> 00:04:26,596 Speaker 1: orders embarking on a PhD in criminology. But Griffiths and 47 00:04:26,716 --> 00:04:30,116 Speaker 1: violent men like him often don't just study the likes 48 00:04:30,116 --> 00:04:34,556 Speaker 1: of Jack the Ripper. They celebrate them, venerate them, and 49 00:04:34,756 --> 00:04:40,876 Speaker 1: just occasionally emulate them. When I began researching the victims 50 00:04:40,876 --> 00:04:45,396 Speaker 1: of the Whitechapel murders, I had perhaps naively underestimated the 51 00:04:45,476 --> 00:04:48,996 Speaker 1: depths of some people's interests in serial killers, and the 52 00:04:49,036 --> 00:04:53,116 Speaker 1: breadth of books, online forums and podcasts eager to service 53 00:04:53,236 --> 00:04:56,356 Speaker 1: this demand for gore. Some of what I've seen and 54 00:04:56,436 --> 00:05:01,676 Speaker 1: heard since is deeply troubling. Nor was I quite prepared 55 00:05:01,716 --> 00:05:05,236 Speaker 1: for where I would encounter some of the most disturbing content, 56 00:05:05,796 --> 00:05:09,476 Speaker 1: content that elevates the killer and denigrates his vict tis. 57 00:05:10,436 --> 00:05:13,196 Speaker 1: If you were shocked that a major British university would 58 00:05:13,236 --> 00:05:16,436 Speaker 1: sanction a man like Griffiths to indulge his warped interest 59 00:05:16,476 --> 00:05:20,036 Speaker 1: in murderers, you may be as astonished as I was 60 00:05:20,116 --> 00:05:22,916 Speaker 1: to learn that many children are being taught about Jack 61 00:05:22,996 --> 00:05:27,276 Speaker 1: the Ripper in school. This particular teacher very much had 62 00:05:27,276 --> 00:05:32,276 Speaker 1: a very entertaining way of showing history. A little bit 63 00:05:32,356 --> 00:05:35,716 Speaker 1: questionable afterwards, but at the time the issue never crossed 64 00:05:35,716 --> 00:05:38,636 Speaker 1: my mind. This is Sydney. She learned about Jack the 65 00:05:38,716 --> 00:05:41,916 Speaker 1: Ripper in history class at an international school in France 66 00:05:42,196 --> 00:05:46,196 Speaker 1: when she was thirteen years old. It was very much reiterated. 67 00:05:46,236 --> 00:05:48,716 Speaker 1: You know, some of these women were getting drunk every night, 68 00:05:48,836 --> 00:05:50,836 Speaker 1: and you know they were saying that if they were sober, 69 00:05:50,876 --> 00:05:53,436 Speaker 1: they would have been able to escape the killer. At 70 00:05:53,476 --> 00:05:56,476 Speaker 1: the time, Sidney didn't question her teacher's framing of the 71 00:05:56,556 --> 00:06:00,596 Speaker 1: story with its clear victim blaming. Now understanding the severity 72 00:06:00,596 --> 00:06:03,476 Speaker 1: of alcohol addiction and the negative effects of it, it's 73 00:06:03,476 --> 00:06:06,116 Speaker 1: not really fair to teach children that it could have 74 00:06:06,516 --> 00:06:10,036 Speaker 1: prevented these women from being murdered. If she didn't spend 75 00:06:10,036 --> 00:06:12,636 Speaker 1: her last money on drinks, she would have made it 76 00:06:12,676 --> 00:06:16,156 Speaker 1: through the night like it excused and was an explanation 77 00:06:16,316 --> 00:06:19,876 Speaker 1: for the murders. Back then, Sydney was really into police 78 00:06:19,916 --> 00:06:24,916 Speaker 1: procedurals like CSI an NCIS, so who'd done it? Approach 79 00:06:25,156 --> 00:06:28,716 Speaker 1: that didn't reflect on the victims, just felt normal. We 80 00:06:28,836 --> 00:06:34,076 Speaker 1: actually created an FBI type crimesying board which had pictures 81 00:06:34,116 --> 00:06:38,796 Speaker 1: of rumored killers strings attached to maps, just how you 82 00:06:38,796 --> 00:06:41,836 Speaker 1: would see it on TV. She was also unfazed by 83 00:06:41,876 --> 00:06:45,996 Speaker 1: the graphic descriptions of the injuries too, but other students 84 00:06:46,156 --> 00:06:49,356 Speaker 1: were rather more upset, like I remember even that some 85 00:06:49,436 --> 00:06:52,276 Speaker 1: people are squeamish and they had to leave the class. 86 00:06:52,916 --> 00:06:56,036 Speaker 1: I've heard similar things from former students around the globe. 87 00:06:56,716 --> 00:07:00,276 Speaker 1: One art teacher at an elementary school would end his 88 00:07:00,396 --> 00:07:04,676 Speaker 1: classes were stories of the murders, culminating in the savage 89 00:07:04,756 --> 00:07:08,716 Speaker 1: mutilation of Mary Jane Kelly. A drama teacher staged a 90 00:07:08,796 --> 00:07:13,556 Speaker 1: play depicting the killings year after year after year. But 91 00:07:13,636 --> 00:07:16,636 Speaker 1: it's in history classes that most people have learned about 92 00:07:16,716 --> 00:07:20,036 Speaker 1: Jack the Ripper, and what they were taught is completely 93 00:07:20,076 --> 00:07:24,036 Speaker 1: divorced from reality and objectionable to the memories of the victims. 94 00:07:24,876 --> 00:07:27,476 Speaker 1: Some history teachers plumped their classes down in front of 95 00:07:27,516 --> 00:07:31,916 Speaker 1: the Hollywood film From Hell to Endure Johnny Depp's cockney accent. 96 00:07:32,236 --> 00:07:35,636 Speaker 1: Thank he's taking more organists and swallow that totally debunked 97 00:07:35,716 --> 00:07:41,196 Speaker 1: Royal conspiracy theory. Other educators create worksheets that dismiss the 98 00:07:41,196 --> 00:07:45,596 Speaker 1: women as prostitutes and helpless alcoholics, and invite pupils to 99 00:07:45,756 --> 00:07:49,436 Speaker 1: catalog the injuries of each woman to earn a good grade. 100 00:07:50,076 --> 00:07:51,716 Speaker 1: And when I look and reflect on it now, I'm 101 00:07:51,756 --> 00:07:54,436 Speaker 1: incredibly embarrassed about what I used to do. Simon Beale 102 00:07:54,436 --> 00:07:57,636 Speaker 1: teaches history at a school in London, So what we're 103 00:07:57,636 --> 00:08:00,076 Speaker 1: looking at here is how I originally taught. He's showing 104 00:08:00,116 --> 00:08:03,036 Speaker 1: me the resources he once used in his classes. On 105 00:08:03,156 --> 00:08:05,996 Speaker 1: Jack the Ripper, I'd get that cheap kind of paper 106 00:08:06,156 --> 00:08:08,676 Speaker 1: tablecloth you get for parties, and I'd stretch it out 107 00:08:09,316 --> 00:08:11,156 Speaker 1: all over it, put an outline of a body, a 108 00:08:11,276 --> 00:08:13,516 Speaker 1: map of Whitechapel, and it would be a kind of 109 00:08:13,516 --> 00:08:16,316 Speaker 1: two to three lesson investigation, where the first lesson would 110 00:08:16,316 --> 00:08:18,396 Speaker 1: be about the killings, then it would be about the suspects, 111 00:08:18,596 --> 00:08:20,756 Speaker 1: and they'd keep writing all over it. Pupils would then 112 00:08:20,756 --> 00:08:24,636 Speaker 1: embellish these pieces of paper with bloody knives and very 113 00:08:24,716 --> 00:08:27,516 Speaker 1: detailed imagery of who the killer was and things like that, 114 00:08:27,676 --> 00:08:30,516 Speaker 1: and I was incredibly proud of it. What historically is 115 00:08:30,556 --> 00:08:34,756 Speaker 1: there to be derived from that exercise? If you challenge 116 00:08:34,796 --> 00:08:36,436 Speaker 1: me on it at the time, I would have said, 117 00:08:36,636 --> 00:08:40,036 Speaker 1: I'm giving them a range of information. I'm getting them 118 00:08:40,076 --> 00:08:43,996 Speaker 1: to draw conclusions, come up with theories, weigh up evidence, 119 00:08:44,276 --> 00:08:48,676 Speaker 1: and then present it, which all sound incredibly useful in 120 00:08:48,676 --> 00:08:51,636 Speaker 1: a history classroom. I could do that doing lots of things. 121 00:08:51,676 --> 00:08:53,476 Speaker 1: It doesn't have to be about a brutal series of 122 00:08:53,556 --> 00:08:56,156 Speaker 1: killings to do all the things I've just mentioned. Simon 123 00:08:56,196 --> 00:08:59,276 Speaker 1: grew worried that the historical tale he was sharing was 124 00:08:59,356 --> 00:09:03,596 Speaker 1: thin and threadbare. There are a few vigorously researched history books, remember, 125 00:09:03,956 --> 00:09:07,636 Speaker 1: and the details that were available centered on Gore, which 126 00:09:07,756 --> 00:09:10,756 Speaker 1: wasn't exactly age appropriate. It he wouldn't have taught any 127 00:09:10,876 --> 00:09:14,116 Speaker 1: other historical period in this way. What I find most 128 00:09:14,116 --> 00:09:17,036 Speaker 1: shocking is actually the kind of maturity of the content 129 00:09:17,076 --> 00:09:20,316 Speaker 1: we're using with pupils of kind thirteen to fourteen years old, 130 00:09:20,436 --> 00:09:23,636 Speaker 1: who just aren't ready to see it. With those younger pupils, 131 00:09:23,796 --> 00:09:28,836 Speaker 1: we're using crime scene photography and the autopsy reports, but 132 00:09:28,876 --> 00:09:31,396 Speaker 1: we're not preparing them for it, or actually doing any 133 00:09:31,436 --> 00:09:34,396 Speaker 1: duty of care afterwards about kind of their reaction to 134 00:09:34,436 --> 00:09:36,716 Speaker 1: seeing these things. It's just often we've done and we're 135 00:09:36,716 --> 00:09:39,156 Speaker 1: doing something else afterwards. God, I don't know if anybody's 136 00:09:39,156 --> 00:09:41,636 Speaker 1: ever ready to see it, to be honest, No, absolutely, 137 00:09:41,676 --> 00:09:43,756 Speaker 1: and we're not giving them the choice. Quite often they're 138 00:09:43,836 --> 00:09:45,756 Speaker 1: arriving the lesson not knowing what they're going to be studying, 139 00:09:45,796 --> 00:09:48,036 Speaker 1: and then suddenly that's what they're looking at. You wouldn't 140 00:09:48,076 --> 00:09:50,556 Speaker 1: teach about the Zodiac killings or the Son of Sam 141 00:09:50,636 --> 00:09:53,356 Speaker 1: killings in your history lessons. You understand that that's for 142 00:09:53,396 --> 00:09:56,596 Speaker 1: an adult audience, But there's something about Jack the Ripper 143 00:09:56,676 --> 00:09:59,756 Speaker 1: that has almost taken away any age rating and anything 144 00:09:59,796 --> 00:10:03,236 Speaker 1: goes when discussing those killings, because it's in some way 145 00:10:03,876 --> 00:10:08,676 Speaker 1: mythologized in the national, maybe even international consciousness. Simon was 146 00:10:08,676 --> 00:10:11,756 Speaker 1: a s teaching the tired old Ripper myth that you've 147 00:10:11,756 --> 00:10:15,156 Speaker 1: heard demolished bit by bit during this series. He began 148 00:10:15,196 --> 00:10:19,276 Speaker 1: to fear his classes were just perpetuating falsities about Polly Annie, 149 00:10:19,276 --> 00:10:23,316 Speaker 1: Elizabeth Kate, and Mary Jane and teaching his pupils something 150 00:10:23,476 --> 00:10:27,716 Speaker 1: dark and pernicious about how violence against women should be understood. 151 00:10:28,156 --> 00:10:31,276 Speaker 1: Pupils only know about Jack the Ripper, probably because their 152 00:10:31,276 --> 00:10:32,836 Speaker 1: teacher taught it to them. If they taught it to 153 00:10:32,876 --> 00:10:35,596 Speaker 1: them as about them being these victims, they'll probably then 154 00:10:35,636 --> 00:10:38,196 Speaker 1: go on to just see them in that lens. I 155 00:10:38,236 --> 00:10:40,676 Speaker 1: can't say that there isn't someone that was in my 156 00:10:40,796 --> 00:10:43,596 Speaker 1: lesson that saw it and thought, okay, this has always 157 00:10:43,596 --> 00:10:47,676 Speaker 1: been going on, not that these are rare, extreme cases 158 00:10:48,276 --> 00:10:51,876 Speaker 1: that really needs sensitivity. When they're covered. Boys may well 159 00:10:51,916 --> 00:10:55,276 Speaker 1: come away with this idea that violent killings are something 160 00:10:55,276 --> 00:11:00,716 Speaker 1: that men do and it gets lots of attention, notoriety potentially, 161 00:11:00,876 --> 00:11:03,516 Speaker 1: And then when you think about the girls in your classroom, 162 00:11:03,716 --> 00:11:07,436 Speaker 1: it really can accidentally lead into the eye that they're victims. 163 00:11:07,716 --> 00:11:10,716 Speaker 1: And while you might want to show how the role 164 00:11:10,756 --> 00:11:14,116 Speaker 1: of women in the Victorian period was difficult, if you 165 00:11:14,356 --> 00:11:16,236 Speaker 1: do the Chat the Ripper killings in a certain way, 166 00:11:16,316 --> 00:11:18,476 Speaker 1: If you just focus on the killings, all you're doing 167 00:11:18,596 --> 00:11:21,556 Speaker 1: is women get brutally killed, and it happens a lot. 168 00:11:21,916 --> 00:11:24,676 Speaker 1: Men are on top, they get to do what they want, 169 00:11:24,796 --> 00:11:27,676 Speaker 1: sometimes they get away with it, and what happens to 170 00:11:27,836 --> 00:11:31,196 Speaker 1: these women and their lives beforehand are incidental. So Simon 171 00:11:31,236 --> 00:11:34,236 Speaker 1: has ditched dis old Lesson plan, and now he doesn't 172 00:11:34,236 --> 00:11:37,636 Speaker 1: teach about Jack the Ribber anymore. Instead, he uses the 173 00:11:37,676 --> 00:11:40,116 Speaker 1: lives of the five women do examine what it was 174 00:11:40,196 --> 00:11:42,836 Speaker 1: like to be a poor Victorian. It's much more about 175 00:11:42,876 --> 00:11:45,636 Speaker 1: their lives and much more about the various things pulling 176 00:11:45,636 --> 00:11:49,076 Speaker 1: women down from being able to live in any way 177 00:11:49,076 --> 00:11:52,356 Speaker 1: in equitable life compared to men. I'm trying to almost 178 00:11:52,356 --> 00:11:55,516 Speaker 1: avoid even talking about their death in the resources I use. Now, 179 00:11:55,996 --> 00:11:58,396 Speaker 1: it's just got the date of their death, and if 180 00:11:58,436 --> 00:12:00,956 Speaker 1: people's notice it, we might have a conversation. But what 181 00:12:00,996 --> 00:12:03,156 Speaker 1: I found is that they're so interested by their lives 182 00:12:03,156 --> 00:12:05,836 Speaker 1: and the different interactions and the different opportunities each of 183 00:12:05,876 --> 00:12:10,996 Speaker 1: them had, that it may never come up. Simon's experience 184 00:12:11,036 --> 00:12:14,116 Speaker 1: shows that we underestimate our students if we assume that 185 00:12:14,236 --> 00:12:17,876 Speaker 1: only blood, gore and police procedurals will get them excited 186 00:12:17,916 --> 00:12:22,796 Speaker 1: about history. But individual teachers like Simon are just interpreting 187 00:12:22,836 --> 00:12:27,196 Speaker 1: guidelines they get from higher up. Very broadly speaking, how 188 00:12:27,236 --> 00:12:32,156 Speaker 1: does Jack the Ripper fit into the edexcel curriculum. He 189 00:12:32,516 --> 00:12:36,716 Speaker 1: is part of the investigative policing content in the Whitechapel 190 00:12:36,796 --> 00:12:39,836 Speaker 1: Historic Environment. EDEXCEL is the name of the body that 191 00:12:39,956 --> 00:12:42,876 Speaker 1: sets and Mark's exams for many young people in the UK. 192 00:12:43,556 --> 00:12:47,236 Speaker 1: Mark Antstein manages the history qualifications for fifteen to eighteen 193 00:12:47,276 --> 00:12:49,996 Speaker 1: year olds. I wanted to know how much thought had 194 00:12:50,036 --> 00:12:53,076 Speaker 1: gone into the Ripper myth and the curriculum, and the 195 00:12:53,156 --> 00:12:59,156 Speaker 1: answer was not much. The body of material primary sources 196 00:12:59,636 --> 00:13:02,636 Speaker 1: is negligible. That actually came as a surprise to me 197 00:13:02,756 --> 00:13:05,516 Speaker 1: when I started doing my research in this, and I'll 198 00:13:05,516 --> 00:13:08,476 Speaker 1: admit that's something I wasn't aware of either in terms 199 00:13:08,516 --> 00:13:11,836 Speaker 1: of including it in future specifications. That's something that we 200 00:13:11,876 --> 00:13:13,796 Speaker 1: could continue to look at. I think there is a 201 00:13:13,916 --> 00:13:17,116 Speaker 1: value to looking at late Victoria in Whitechapel. I think 202 00:13:17,116 --> 00:13:19,156 Speaker 1: it's a valid question as well to say do we 203 00:13:19,236 --> 00:13:22,476 Speaker 1: want to continue to include the investigation of the Ripper 204 00:13:22,556 --> 00:13:26,876 Speaker 1: murders within that content. Mark also agreed that where teachers 205 00:13:26,916 --> 00:13:30,676 Speaker 1: still show their students graphic content or films like from Hell, 206 00:13:31,236 --> 00:13:33,836 Speaker 1: they need to be invited to think again. I hope 207 00:13:33,876 --> 00:13:36,916 Speaker 1: things have moved on a bit from that. Where they haven't, 208 00:13:36,956 --> 00:13:39,316 Speaker 1: I think we need to do more to encourage change. 209 00:13:39,796 --> 00:13:43,756 Speaker 1: So it's looking promising. And while we were making this podcast, 210 00:13:44,196 --> 00:13:48,356 Speaker 1: the publisher of Edxcel's textbooks announced it would correct references 211 00:13:48,396 --> 00:13:51,876 Speaker 1: to all the women being prostitutes. Thank you for bringing 212 00:13:51,876 --> 00:13:54,716 Speaker 1: this to our attention. The firm tweeted, we plan to 213 00:13:54,796 --> 00:13:58,756 Speaker 1: revise and update this paragraph to reflect Hallie Rubinholt's recent 214 00:13:58,956 --> 00:14:03,916 Speaker 1: groundbreaking work. Change is underway in the world of education, 215 00:14:04,716 --> 00:14:07,516 Speaker 1: but many of us still have our misconceptions about the 216 00:14:07,516 --> 00:14:11,836 Speaker 1: Whitechapel murders. Force time and again in books, on TV 217 00:14:12,196 --> 00:14:15,996 Speaker 1: and in newspaper articles. One of the biggest voices on 218 00:14:16,036 --> 00:14:19,356 Speaker 1: the topic is Patricia Cornwell. Can she help change the 219 00:14:19,396 --> 00:14:22,716 Speaker 1: way the old story is told and shift the spotlight 220 00:14:22,916 --> 00:14:27,276 Speaker 1: away from the killer? Well, I'm finally able to ask 221 00:14:27,276 --> 00:14:42,396 Speaker 1: her in person. The rippery told will return shortly. Anybody 222 00:14:42,436 --> 00:14:45,356 Speaker 1: that thinks it's fun getting involved in this case, it's 223 00:14:45,396 --> 00:14:48,116 Speaker 1: not fun. I can't check the rip off because this 224 00:14:48,316 --> 00:14:50,476 Speaker 1: certainly lost me far more money than I ever earned 225 00:14:50,516 --> 00:14:53,196 Speaker 1: to spending it on all the research and stuff that 226 00:14:53,236 --> 00:14:55,596 Speaker 1: I had to do. But you should never stop trying 227 00:14:55,596 --> 00:14:58,836 Speaker 1: to find a truth about anything. Patricia Cornwell's telling me 228 00:14:58,916 --> 00:15:03,036 Speaker 1: about the millions of dollars she's spent employing experts and 229 00:15:03,196 --> 00:15:07,236 Speaker 1: purchasing artwork and letters by Walter Sickard in her quest 230 00:15:07,556 --> 00:15:11,156 Speaker 1: to unmask the painter as Jack the Ripper, Can I 231 00:15:11,236 --> 00:15:15,396 Speaker 1: persuade her to concentrate her energies on the stories of 232 00:15:15,396 --> 00:15:18,556 Speaker 1: the victims. I think you have to do both, because 233 00:15:18,676 --> 00:15:20,876 Speaker 1: this is my opinion, part of the way that we 234 00:15:20,956 --> 00:15:24,076 Speaker 1: honor the victims is you have to unflinchingly stare in 235 00:15:24,116 --> 00:15:27,156 Speaker 1: the face what was done to them and why and how. 236 00:15:27,556 --> 00:15:29,956 Speaker 1: You have to or you will never reconstruct their final 237 00:15:29,996 --> 00:15:32,356 Speaker 1: moments when they were the most isolated and desperate they've 238 00:15:32,396 --> 00:15:34,796 Speaker 1: ever been, and we need to bring them back to life. 239 00:15:34,836 --> 00:15:36,996 Speaker 1: But you still have to deal with who's doing this. 240 00:15:37,356 --> 00:15:39,756 Speaker 1: You still have to look at the one who's preying 241 00:15:39,796 --> 00:15:42,596 Speaker 1: on these people and why. And I honestly think, whether 242 00:15:42,636 --> 00:15:44,676 Speaker 1: we like it or not, the world's curious about that. 243 00:15:45,436 --> 00:15:48,276 Speaker 1: We can't help but be curious about the monsters. And 244 00:15:48,356 --> 00:15:52,676 Speaker 1: to face the reality that when you've marginalized and victimize 245 00:15:52,756 --> 00:15:55,756 Speaker 1: any group of people or any individual, you make them 246 00:15:55,876 --> 00:16:00,836 Speaker 1: vulnerable for harm because predators watch to see who is vulnerable. 247 00:16:01,156 --> 00:16:06,476 Speaker 1: Patricia agrees, however, that will never truly know this predator's identity. 248 00:16:06,756 --> 00:16:08,716 Speaker 1: That was the stupidest thing I ever did was to 249 00:16:08,836 --> 00:16:11,716 Speaker 1: call all that first book about Jack the Ripper case closed. 250 00:16:11,836 --> 00:16:13,956 Speaker 1: I was way to share myself back then? Am I 251 00:16:14,036 --> 00:16:16,516 Speaker 1: younger salad days? As we say in the South, because 252 00:16:16,516 --> 00:16:19,316 Speaker 1: it will never be closed that no matter what, what 253 00:16:19,396 --> 00:16:23,516 Speaker 1: do you think that justice would really look like in 254 00:16:23,556 --> 00:16:26,636 Speaker 1: the Jack the Ripper case, what's going to happen today? 255 00:16:26,876 --> 00:16:30,236 Speaker 1: The closest you could ever get is simply excavating for 256 00:16:30,276 --> 00:16:32,716 Speaker 1: as much truth as you can find. That includes with 257 00:16:32,756 --> 00:16:35,116 Speaker 1: the victims. Like you know, if there had been someone 258 00:16:35,316 --> 00:16:37,716 Speaker 1: who thought they were a descendant of Mary Kelly and 259 00:16:37,836 --> 00:16:41,316 Speaker 1: thought there was an exclamation possible and thought you could 260 00:16:41,356 --> 00:16:44,276 Speaker 1: really find those remains and do DNA on it and 261 00:16:44,316 --> 00:16:48,396 Speaker 1: maybe do mitochondrial and perhaps figure out who she really was, 262 00:16:48,956 --> 00:16:52,236 Speaker 1: that is the beginning of justice, because you're restoring someone's 263 00:16:52,276 --> 00:16:54,436 Speaker 1: identity to them. I've always thought the saddest thing in 264 00:16:54,476 --> 00:16:56,316 Speaker 1: the morgue are the other people. We don't know who 265 00:16:56,316 --> 00:16:59,436 Speaker 1: they are. I can't get Patricia to change her mind 266 00:16:59,476 --> 00:17:02,596 Speaker 1: about continuing to hunt down the murderer, but what happened 267 00:17:02,636 --> 00:17:07,876 Speaker 1: to the five genuinely incenses her. She's personally and deeply 268 00:17:07,956 --> 00:17:10,956 Speaker 1: outraged by their is. I know you're not interested in 269 00:17:10,956 --> 00:17:13,076 Speaker 1: who Jack the Ripper was, and you know this is 270 00:17:13,116 --> 00:17:15,236 Speaker 1: why we make a really good harmony here because I 271 00:17:15,356 --> 00:17:18,156 Speaker 1: go after the bad guy and you're going after the victims, 272 00:17:18,196 --> 00:17:20,036 Speaker 1: and I'm interested in them too, But I really want 273 00:17:20,076 --> 00:17:22,196 Speaker 1: to nail this mother, you know what he because she 274 00:17:22,236 --> 00:17:24,036 Speaker 1: shouldn't get away with it. First of all, let me 275 00:17:24,076 --> 00:17:26,356 Speaker 1: just say this yet. People have known the names of 276 00:17:26,396 --> 00:17:28,396 Speaker 1: these people for a long time, but what they've never 277 00:17:28,476 --> 00:17:31,596 Speaker 1: had is a real historian like you to humanize them 278 00:17:31,636 --> 00:17:35,716 Speaker 1: and to look beyond just the usual lore. These were desperate, 279 00:17:35,796 --> 00:17:40,956 Speaker 1: homeless people who are just trying to survive under dreadful conditions. 280 00:17:41,356 --> 00:17:45,076 Speaker 1: Patricia has always spoken about the women respectfully and with 281 00:17:45,156 --> 00:17:48,836 Speaker 1: great empathy, but she's previously stuck to the idea that 282 00:17:48,956 --> 00:17:51,676 Speaker 1: all five was selling sex on the nights they died. 283 00:17:52,236 --> 00:17:55,156 Speaker 1: It seems she's now more willing to accept my theory 284 00:17:55,156 --> 00:17:58,436 Speaker 1: that homelessness played a bigger role, and she also agrees 285 00:17:58,476 --> 00:18:02,356 Speaker 1: that society failed these women and continues to fail them 286 00:18:02,436 --> 00:18:06,796 Speaker 1: modern counterparts. I believe that nothing ever ends. These cases 287 00:18:06,796 --> 00:18:10,036 Speaker 1: still go on today, and if we try to fix 288 00:18:10,076 --> 00:18:12,516 Speaker 1: it as best we can, we are not re engineering 289 00:18:12,796 --> 00:18:15,556 Speaker 1: life the way we should. Maybe we can prevent this 290 00:18:15,636 --> 00:18:19,196 Speaker 1: from happening again. We gain more understanding not only into 291 00:18:19,356 --> 00:18:23,116 Speaker 1: what can cause victimization, but also to get more insights 292 00:18:23,156 --> 00:18:26,316 Speaker 1: into what goes haywire with people who might perpetrate things 293 00:18:26,356 --> 00:18:29,236 Speaker 1: like this. We don't want those monsters among us. We'd 294 00:18:29,236 --> 00:18:34,156 Speaker 1: like to fix that somehow. It's also about society taking responsibility. 295 00:18:34,436 --> 00:18:37,156 Speaker 1: It's about like when we have people on the margins, 296 00:18:37,236 --> 00:18:40,156 Speaker 1: when we have people who are not looked after, when 297 00:18:40,156 --> 00:18:42,476 Speaker 1: we don't care about mental health, well, we don't care 298 00:18:42,516 --> 00:18:45,636 Speaker 1: about people who are sick because we don't want to care. 299 00:18:46,036 --> 00:18:49,036 Speaker 1: That's on us. That's right. I totally agree with you 300 00:18:49,236 --> 00:18:52,076 Speaker 1: that we have to know what happened to people in 301 00:18:52,196 --> 00:18:57,276 Speaker 1: order to understand how bad it was. But I think 302 00:18:57,516 --> 00:19:01,356 Speaker 1: we can also tip over too far into a danger 303 00:19:01,396 --> 00:19:05,156 Speaker 1: that we glamorize violence with focusing on Jack the Ripper. 304 00:19:05,516 --> 00:19:08,276 Speaker 1: How can we get this balance right? You are absolutely right. 305 00:19:08,316 --> 00:19:10,836 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm sorry, but I find the ripper walks offensive. 306 00:19:11,116 --> 00:19:15,036 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I really do. I find the commercial industry 307 00:19:15,076 --> 00:19:18,676 Speaker 1: of this offensive. It's turned him into a comic book hero, 308 00:19:19,076 --> 00:19:21,716 Speaker 1: and that takes away from the reality, from the pain 309 00:19:21,836 --> 00:19:25,836 Speaker 1: and the suffering and the absolute terror that these victims felt. 310 00:19:25,876 --> 00:19:28,276 Speaker 1: I honored them by trying to show the reality of 311 00:19:28,316 --> 00:19:30,076 Speaker 1: what was done to them. You know, it's funny if 312 00:19:30,076 --> 00:19:33,516 Speaker 1: you go to University College at Oxford, as I recall 313 00:19:33,596 --> 00:19:36,196 Speaker 1: from long ago, there's this beautiful sculpture of Shelley the 314 00:19:36,276 --> 00:19:39,316 Speaker 1: drowned poet, you know, all white and marbly and elegant, 315 00:19:39,316 --> 00:19:41,756 Speaker 1: with his beautiful body dead on the shore. And let 316 00:19:41,756 --> 00:19:43,156 Speaker 1: me tell you what. That ain't what he looked like 317 00:19:43,196 --> 00:19:45,676 Speaker 1: when he washed up. That is not the reality of 318 00:19:45,756 --> 00:19:47,876 Speaker 1: violence and death. And just like you don't like these 319 00:19:47,876 --> 00:19:51,076 Speaker 1: prostitute quote sex workers depict it as these women in 320 00:19:51,116 --> 00:19:53,676 Speaker 1: their fancied bustles and low cut whatever. I don't like 321 00:19:53,796 --> 00:19:56,796 Speaker 1: victims looking like it was nothing. I just went to sleep. 322 00:19:57,156 --> 00:20:00,876 Speaker 1: She's pretty disgusted by the market for ripper related items too, 323 00:20:01,396 --> 00:20:04,076 Speaker 1: the mugs and the teddy bears and the shot glasses. 324 00:20:04,716 --> 00:20:07,636 Speaker 1: What would she say to the people who buy this stuff. 325 00:20:08,076 --> 00:20:11,436 Speaker 1: It's dangerous and it's offensive. Let me take that photograph 326 00:20:11,476 --> 00:20:13,596 Speaker 1: of Mary Kelly on her bed, ladies and gentlemen to 327 00:20:13,636 --> 00:20:15,396 Speaker 1: put it on an FFF and T shirt and say, 328 00:20:16,196 --> 00:20:18,596 Speaker 1: you know, trick or treat, because that's what you're doing. 329 00:20:18,716 --> 00:20:21,316 Speaker 1: You're saying trick retreat. Well, it wasn't trick or treat 330 00:20:21,356 --> 00:20:23,876 Speaker 1: for these people, and it wasn't trick retreat for the 331 00:20:23,916 --> 00:20:27,236 Speaker 1: cops that were horrified and shocked and traumatized. It wasn't 332 00:20:27,276 --> 00:20:31,036 Speaker 1: trick retreat for coroners who had to deal with these bodies, 333 00:20:31,596 --> 00:20:34,996 Speaker 1: and those family members who to this day descendants don't 334 00:20:34,996 --> 00:20:37,476 Speaker 1: know whatever happened to certain and her grandmother they had. 335 00:20:38,036 --> 00:20:41,036 Speaker 1: So it's offensive. And what I would say is, I 336 00:20:41,076 --> 00:20:43,916 Speaker 1: don't blame you for participating this ignorance, but would you 337 00:20:43,916 --> 00:20:46,196 Speaker 1: step back for a minute and look at this realistically 338 00:20:46,356 --> 00:20:49,036 Speaker 1: and ask yourself should you be doing this? The answer 339 00:20:49,076 --> 00:20:53,596 Speaker 1: is no, you should not be doing this. Patricia is 340 00:20:53,596 --> 00:20:57,076 Speaker 1: a writer of fiction and she's just published to twenty 341 00:20:57,116 --> 00:21:01,396 Speaker 1: fifth thriller featuring heroine k Scarpetta, who first appeared in 342 00:21:01,476 --> 00:21:04,756 Speaker 1: the book Post Mortem. But Jack the Rippa represents an 343 00:21:04,836 --> 00:21:08,676 Speaker 1: unusual foray into true crime for her, and Bad Women 344 00:21:08,796 --> 00:21:12,716 Speaker 1: is closer to true crime than any of my previous work. 345 00:21:13,076 --> 00:21:16,876 Speaker 1: So I asked Patricia what responsibilities we have when it 346 00:21:16,876 --> 00:21:20,796 Speaker 1: comes to representing real life pain and suffering. I think 347 00:21:20,796 --> 00:21:24,116 Speaker 1: you've got to be careful. I'm very cautious about true crime. 348 00:21:24,236 --> 00:21:26,236 Speaker 1: The Ripper is as much as I want to get 349 00:21:26,276 --> 00:21:28,316 Speaker 1: into that, and to be honest with you, one of 350 00:21:28,316 --> 00:21:31,556 Speaker 1: the reasons I could and do it with abandonment is 351 00:21:31,676 --> 00:21:34,596 Speaker 1: I didn't really feel that I was going to hurt people. 352 00:21:34,916 --> 00:21:38,116 Speaker 1: If you have a mother who's been murdered in recent 353 00:21:38,196 --> 00:21:40,556 Speaker 1: time and then you do an in depth thing on it, 354 00:21:40,916 --> 00:21:43,556 Speaker 1: the people who have suffered through that suffered through it again. 355 00:21:43,556 --> 00:21:45,676 Speaker 1: And while I'm not saying you shouldn't write about it, 356 00:21:45,916 --> 00:21:47,836 Speaker 1: I'm saying for me, though, I would have a hard 357 00:21:47,836 --> 00:21:50,916 Speaker 1: time doing that. I've talked to prisoners on death row 358 00:21:50,956 --> 00:21:54,076 Speaker 1: before and that's not my favorite thing to do. I 359 00:21:54,116 --> 00:21:58,076 Speaker 1: don't really like spending time with the darker side of this. 360 00:21:58,356 --> 00:22:00,556 Speaker 1: It was a British person who said this many years ago, 361 00:22:00,716 --> 00:22:03,596 Speaker 1: and I've never forgotten it. Of somebody who said we 362 00:22:03,996 --> 00:22:07,756 Speaker 1: mustn't celebrate what should be condemned. So when I decided 363 00:22:07,796 --> 00:22:10,556 Speaker 1: to write Post Mortem back in nineteen eighty nine, when 364 00:22:10,596 --> 00:22:13,076 Speaker 1: I began that book, I said, and I was working 365 00:22:13,076 --> 00:22:15,396 Speaker 1: in the morgue, I said, how do I do this? 366 00:22:15,716 --> 00:22:17,676 Speaker 1: How do I tell a story and show what I 367 00:22:17,756 --> 00:22:22,356 Speaker 1: know without it being prurient and maybe feeding the wrong thing? 368 00:22:22,756 --> 00:22:26,076 Speaker 1: And I said, well, don't celebrate it. And the way 369 00:22:26,076 --> 00:22:28,396 Speaker 1: you don't celebrate it is tell it completely from the 370 00:22:28,436 --> 00:22:31,676 Speaker 1: forensic mythologist, the doctor's point of view because her empathy 371 00:22:31,756 --> 00:22:34,076 Speaker 1: is with the victims and her outrages towards a piece 372 00:22:34,076 --> 00:22:36,916 Speaker 1: of crap that did it. And that is my mathematical 373 00:22:36,956 --> 00:22:40,076 Speaker 1: algorithm for what I do. And I would be the 374 00:22:40,116 --> 00:22:41,796 Speaker 1: first to say that there are times when I feel 375 00:22:41,836 --> 00:22:44,116 Speaker 1: like I've crossed that line. You think you're being so 376 00:22:44,236 --> 00:22:46,636 Speaker 1: graphic because you should, and then in hindsight, you go, 377 00:22:46,836 --> 00:22:48,636 Speaker 1: maybe I should have backed it down a little bit. 378 00:22:49,116 --> 00:22:52,876 Speaker 1: And probably the last ten years I'm much less graphic 379 00:22:52,916 --> 00:22:55,676 Speaker 1: about some things than I was earlier on because I 380 00:22:55,716 --> 00:22:59,036 Speaker 1: just think it's too much. It strikes me that Patricia's 381 00:22:59,036 --> 00:23:02,396 Speaker 1: books on Jack Thrippa are quite graphic in places, and 382 00:23:02,476 --> 00:23:05,796 Speaker 1: to TV documentaries have shown horrific close up images of 383 00:23:05,876 --> 00:23:09,716 Speaker 1: the dead women. Does she think she's crossed the line here? No, 384 00:23:09,876 --> 00:23:12,756 Speaker 1: I don't feel as too graphic because I'm only portraying 385 00:23:12,836 --> 00:23:16,516 Speaker 1: to you the anatomical and forensic facts. And if I 386 00:23:16,556 --> 00:23:19,836 Speaker 1: talk about the way the incisions were made and Katherine 387 00:23:19,916 --> 00:23:24,556 Speaker 1: Edau's body, I'm simply relaying to you reconstructing what exactly 388 00:23:24,916 --> 00:23:29,156 Speaker 1: was there and what was done. That's different from fictionalizing 389 00:23:29,596 --> 00:23:31,796 Speaker 1: that the person's walking down the sidewalk and the guy 390 00:23:31,836 --> 00:23:33,676 Speaker 1: comes up behind her, and then next thing you know, 391 00:23:33,756 --> 00:23:36,476 Speaker 1: you're turning it into sort of violent pornography, and that 392 00:23:36,596 --> 00:23:39,476 Speaker 1: I don't do, which is why for a brief period 393 00:23:39,516 --> 00:23:42,596 Speaker 1: when I started writing Scarpetta novels from the third person 394 00:23:42,676 --> 00:23:44,676 Speaker 1: point of view, where I had to show what the 395 00:23:44,756 --> 00:23:47,076 Speaker 1: killer was doing and what the victim was doing, I 396 00:23:47,116 --> 00:23:49,516 Speaker 1: had to get away from that because then I have 397 00:23:49,596 --> 00:23:51,356 Speaker 1: to show those things that I just don't want to. 398 00:23:51,436 --> 00:23:54,036 Speaker 1: I'd rather see it through Scarpetta's eyes and fix it 399 00:23:54,076 --> 00:23:56,676 Speaker 1: after the fact. So that is a struggle because, as 400 00:23:56,756 --> 00:23:59,996 Speaker 1: Hippocrates basically said, do no harm, and I don't want 401 00:23:59,996 --> 00:24:02,516 Speaker 1: to do harm if I can avoid it. I really 402 00:24:02,636 --> 00:24:05,956 Speaker 1: enjoyed talking to Patricia. There's still plenty of things we 403 00:24:06,036 --> 00:24:09,116 Speaker 1: disagree on, but a commitment to the victims is impossible 404 00:24:09,476 --> 00:24:13,436 Speaker 1: to doubt. She's also right on one big thing. True 405 00:24:13,436 --> 00:24:18,116 Speaker 1: crime can do harm, but it can also be incredibly valuable. 406 00:24:18,596 --> 00:24:22,716 Speaker 1: The genre of true crime starts with ripperology. It starts 407 00:24:22,756 --> 00:24:25,876 Speaker 1: with Jack the Ripper. This is journalist Billy Jensen, whose 408 00:24:25,876 --> 00:24:29,556 Speaker 1: work focuses on missing persons and unsolved cases. The worst 409 00:24:29,596 --> 00:24:31,236 Speaker 1: thing to do is not tell a story. You know, 410 00:24:31,316 --> 00:24:33,716 Speaker 1: if any of those stories can get us closer to 411 00:24:33,756 --> 00:24:35,836 Speaker 1: the answers. If we keep on telling them, then let's 412 00:24:35,916 --> 00:24:37,956 Speaker 1: keep telling him. I just wish that we told a 413 00:24:37,996 --> 00:24:42,436 Speaker 1: lot more stories. Billy has a podcast series, The Murder Squad, 414 00:24:42,556 --> 00:24:45,676 Speaker 1: Jensen and Holes, and he's developed his own concept of 415 00:24:45,716 --> 00:24:48,716 Speaker 1: true crime. I think true crime two point zero is 416 00:24:49,356 --> 00:24:54,516 Speaker 1: where people can get involved, whether it's just via social media, 417 00:24:54,796 --> 00:24:57,916 Speaker 1: whether it's doing the investigations on their own. We're in 418 00:24:57,956 --> 00:25:00,676 Speaker 1: a big crisis in America right now when it comes 419 00:25:00,676 --> 00:25:06,796 Speaker 1: to our media because the Internet decimated newspapers. Every one 420 00:25:06,836 --> 00:25:09,596 Speaker 1: of these stories that we see on true crime started 421 00:25:09,596 --> 00:25:13,836 Speaker 1: with a newspaper article, so you're having less people out 422 00:25:13,916 --> 00:25:17,396 Speaker 1: there covering these stories. It's going to be up to 423 00:25:17,836 --> 00:25:19,676 Speaker 1: citizens to do it. You're not gonna make any money 424 00:25:19,716 --> 00:25:22,156 Speaker 1: doing it, but it's going to be up to citizens 425 00:25:22,156 --> 00:25:26,196 Speaker 1: doing it, reading police reports, digging into that because the 426 00:25:26,276 --> 00:25:28,556 Speaker 1: newspapers just don't have enough people to do it, or 427 00:25:28,596 --> 00:25:31,956 Speaker 1: the newspapers are completely gone. This kind of crowdsource crime 428 00:25:31,996 --> 00:25:35,556 Speaker 1: investigation demands care be nice and use your head, you know, 429 00:25:35,556 --> 00:25:38,476 Speaker 1: don't be an asshole. There are important rules, says Billy, 430 00:25:38,836 --> 00:25:41,796 Speaker 1: and they're very similar to the rules of journalism, things 431 00:25:41,876 --> 00:25:45,676 Speaker 1: like don't name names, publicly. Don't give out people's addresses, 432 00:25:46,036 --> 00:25:47,596 Speaker 1: but you can get involved and you can do a 433 00:25:47,636 --> 00:25:49,676 Speaker 1: lot of good work. And that's what we do on 434 00:25:49,756 --> 00:25:52,316 Speaker 1: Murder Squad, and we've helped solve a couple of cases. 435 00:25:52,316 --> 00:25:55,316 Speaker 1: And also getting loud on cases true crime can shine 436 00:25:55,316 --> 00:25:58,556 Speaker 1: a light on cases that have been forgotten or overlooked, 437 00:25:58,956 --> 00:26:02,476 Speaker 1: and citizen investigators can be a useful tool. Here no, 438 00:26:02,596 --> 00:26:05,196 Speaker 1: we cover this case of this woman who was murdered, 439 00:26:05,196 --> 00:26:08,036 Speaker 1: Rebecca Gould. You know there were probably a couple of suspects. 440 00:26:08,276 --> 00:26:10,836 Speaker 1: We got really loud because we have a very popular podcast. 441 00:26:10,956 --> 00:26:12,836 Speaker 1: We did a two parter this is a murder from 442 00:26:12,836 --> 00:26:16,796 Speaker 1: twenty years ago. They arrested somebody in between the first 443 00:26:16,836 --> 00:26:19,676 Speaker 1: and second episodes. But does Billy ever worry that they 444 00:26:19,716 --> 00:26:22,596 Speaker 1: can turn crime solving into a kind of game the 445 00:26:22,676 --> 00:26:25,836 Speaker 1: sort of past time I've criticized some repperologists for pursuing 446 00:26:26,076 --> 00:26:28,116 Speaker 1: I don't care if it's in a game. If at 447 00:26:28,116 --> 00:26:29,636 Speaker 1: the end of the day, if this guy has caught 448 00:26:29,636 --> 00:26:32,436 Speaker 1: in this guy's and cups the victims family doesn't care 449 00:26:32,476 --> 00:26:35,956 Speaker 1: that there was somebody that was doing that and trying 450 00:26:35,956 --> 00:26:38,076 Speaker 1: to solve the murder of their loved one instead of 451 00:26:38,476 --> 00:26:44,676 Speaker 1: playing a video game. Author Gillian Lauren, who interviewed serial 452 00:26:44,756 --> 00:26:47,796 Speaker 1: killers Samuel Little and has told the stories of his victims, 453 00:26:48,116 --> 00:26:51,236 Speaker 1: feel similarly about the power of true crime. I think 454 00:26:51,236 --> 00:26:55,556 Speaker 1: there's a lot of criticism around true crime that maybe 455 00:26:55,836 --> 00:26:59,436 Speaker 1: I don't feel subject to because I actually am a 456 00:26:59,516 --> 00:27:04,916 Speaker 1: victim and a survivor, so I think, don't turn away, 457 00:27:05,436 --> 00:27:09,876 Speaker 1: deal with it responsibly. Crime is as much of a 458 00:27:09,916 --> 00:27:15,116 Speaker 1: piece of humanity is love. Robert Kennedy said, every culture 459 00:27:15,276 --> 00:27:22,396 Speaker 1: gets the criminal they deserve, and I think, you know, 460 00:27:22,636 --> 00:27:27,076 Speaker 1: was Samuel Little the criminal we deserved in a society 461 00:27:27,116 --> 00:27:31,756 Speaker 1: that was dismissing women, dismissing the poor, dismissing the homeless. 462 00:27:32,356 --> 00:27:36,476 Speaker 1: I mean, he's certainly a criminal that is gonna, hopefully, 463 00:27:36,796 --> 00:27:41,116 Speaker 1: if dealt with responsibly in a narrative way, shed a 464 00:27:41,196 --> 00:27:45,316 Speaker 1: light on that, not capitalize on it or exploit it. 465 00:27:45,796 --> 00:27:48,996 Speaker 1: True crime then can be a useful lens for understanding 466 00:27:49,036 --> 00:27:51,916 Speaker 1: the lives of others and for looking at where as 467 00:27:51,916 --> 00:27:55,916 Speaker 1: a culture we've gone wrong and must do better. But 468 00:27:56,116 --> 00:27:59,836 Speaker 1: all too often it spills over into exploited of entertainment 469 00:28:00,076 --> 00:28:05,796 Speaker 1: and tabloid clickbait. When murder obsessive Stephen Griffiths was arrested 470 00:28:05,796 --> 00:28:09,836 Speaker 1: for the murders of Shelley Armitage, Susan Rushworth, and would 471 00:28:09,836 --> 00:28:14,236 Speaker 1: be nursed Suzanne Blamire's. He perhaps yearned for the notoriety 472 00:28:14,396 --> 00:28:18,036 Speaker 1: of the killers he'd studied. His choice of weapon and 473 00:28:18,236 --> 00:28:22,076 Speaker 1: vile assault on his victim's corpses were awful enough, but 474 00:28:22,196 --> 00:28:25,996 Speaker 1: he also hankered after a nickname to equal the rippers. 475 00:28:27,956 --> 00:28:31,636 Speaker 1: When as to identify himself in court, rather than state 476 00:28:31,676 --> 00:28:36,756 Speaker 1: his name, he called himself the Crossbow Cannibal, causing the 477 00:28:36,836 --> 00:28:42,276 Speaker 1: victim's families to sob in the public gallery. Many newspapers 478 00:28:42,316 --> 00:28:45,956 Speaker 1: were only too happy to keep using his self styled moniker, 479 00:28:46,276 --> 00:28:49,836 Speaker 1: and it was seen in headlines around the world. So 480 00:28:49,916 --> 00:28:53,356 Speaker 1: yet again, our fascination with the viciousness and cruelty of 481 00:28:53,396 --> 00:28:57,836 Speaker 1: a murderer threatens to overshadow and obscure the women he killed. 482 00:28:58,596 --> 00:29:02,596 Speaker 1: There are already teevy documentaries looking at his life and 483 00:29:02,796 --> 00:29:06,156 Speaker 1: his motivations, and books listing everything from his taste in 484 00:29:06,276 --> 00:29:10,076 Speaker 1: music to the depravity of his crimes. This is going 485 00:29:10,156 --> 00:29:12,196 Speaker 1: to be a doucy of a case. Yeah, this is 486 00:29:12,756 --> 00:29:16,876 Speaker 1: a lot. There's also no shortage of podcast episodes with 487 00:29:16,916 --> 00:29:20,996 Speaker 1: his chosen nickname and the title the cannibal crossbow killing, Sir, 488 00:29:21,036 --> 00:29:25,036 Speaker 1: the crossbow cannibal killing, which everyone feels right to you. Yeah, alliteration, 489 00:29:25,156 --> 00:29:26,756 Speaker 1: you can do it. I hope neither of them feel 490 00:29:26,796 --> 00:29:32,916 Speaker 1: right to you. But as for Suzanne, Blameyer's well, she 491 00:29:33,036 --> 00:29:38,396 Speaker 1: fades into the background. She's just another bad woman. Like Polly, 492 00:29:38,676 --> 00:29:43,396 Speaker 1: her marriage soured, like Annie, her comfortable life evaporated thanks 493 00:29:43,396 --> 00:29:48,516 Speaker 1: to addiction. Like Kate, she drank, and like Elizabeth and 494 00:29:48,636 --> 00:29:51,476 Speaker 1: Mary Jane, she fell back on sex work to make 495 00:29:51,596 --> 00:29:55,716 Speaker 1: ends meet. When Susanne's killer was sent to prison for life, 496 00:29:56,036 --> 00:29:59,676 Speaker 1: her grieving mother issued a statement saying that she too 497 00:29:59,916 --> 00:30:03,596 Speaker 1: was serving a life sentence. She concluded by asking the 498 00:30:03,596 --> 00:30:06,556 Speaker 1: public not to dismiss or judge Suzanne and the other 499 00:30:06,636 --> 00:30:10,956 Speaker 1: dead women. At the end of the day, nobody deserves this, 500 00:30:11,116 --> 00:30:15,836 Speaker 1: she wrote. All these girls were human beings and people's daughters. 501 00:30:25,236 --> 00:30:28,596 Speaker 1: In the season finale of Bad Women, will return to 502 00:30:28,716 --> 00:30:32,396 Speaker 1: eighteen eighty eight for one last time to look at 503 00:30:32,396 --> 00:30:35,756 Speaker 1: the impact of the White Chapel murders on two families. 504 00:30:36,316 --> 00:30:39,596 Speaker 1: We'll hear how Annie Chapman's brother was brought to his 505 00:30:39,796 --> 00:30:43,276 Speaker 1: knees by her death, and will learn the sad story 506 00:30:43,356 --> 00:30:47,676 Speaker 1: of butcher Jacob Levey, whose mental health problems nearly ruined 507 00:30:47,716 --> 00:30:51,276 Speaker 1: his family but also saw him added to the list 508 00:30:51,316 --> 00:30:55,276 Speaker 1: of men who were accused of being Jack the Ripper 509 00:31:32,316 --> 00:31:34,636 Speaker 1: Bad Women. The Rippery Told is brought to you by 510 00:31:34,676 --> 00:31:37,916 Speaker 1: Pushkin Industries and me Hallie Ribbinhold, and is based on 511 00:31:37,956 --> 00:31:40,836 Speaker 1: my book The Five. It was produced and co written 512 00:31:40,876 --> 00:31:43,836 Speaker 1: by Ryan Dilley and Alice Fines, with help from Pete Norton. 513 00:31:44,356 --> 00:31:47,476 Speaker 1: Pascal Wires sound designed and mixed the show and composed 514 00:31:47,516 --> 00:31:50,956 Speaker 1: all the original music. You also heard the voice talents 515 00:31:50,996 --> 00:31:55,956 Speaker 1: of Soulboyer, Ben Crow, Sarah Bows, Melanie Gutridge, Gemma Saunders, 516 00:31:55,956 --> 00:31:59,316 Speaker 1: and rufus Wright. The show also wouldn't have been possible 517 00:31:59,436 --> 00:32:04,196 Speaker 1: without the work of Mila Belle, Jacob Weisberg, Jenguera, Heather Fane, 518 00:32:04,476 --> 00:32:09,996 Speaker 1: Carlie mcgliori, Maggie Taylor, Nicole Maraino, The Talmulad, Eric Sandler 519 00:32:10,276 --> 00:32:13,076 Speaker 1: and Dan Yellow look on with special things to my 520 00:32:13,156 --> 00:32:15,396 Speaker 1: agents Sarah Ballard and Ellie Karen