WEBVTT - Elon Musk Sued by the SEC, Awaiting TikTok's Fate 0:00:02.520 --> 0:00:09.680 Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news from the heart of 0:00:09.720 --> 0:00:15.440 where innovation, money and power collide in Silicon Valley and beyond. 0:00:15.880 --> 0:00:26.640 This is Bloomberg Technology with Caroline Hyde and Ed Ludlow. 0:00:34.320 --> 0:00:37.519 Live from New York on Caroline Hyde and I'm much 0:00:37.520 --> 0:00:39.839 Shepherd in Washington in for Ed Ludlow. 0:00:40.080 --> 0:00:42.320 This is Bloomberg Technology coming up. 0:00:42.400 --> 0:00:45.680 The SEC goes after Elon Musk suing the tech billionaire 0:00:45.680 --> 0:00:51.360 over alleged disclosure violations with Twitter. Plus Elon Musk's other company, SpaceX, 0:00:51.479 --> 0:00:54.720 continues to make strides with two lunar roveroprobes headed for 0:00:54.800 --> 0:00:55.200 the moon. 0:00:55.880 --> 0:00:57.400 And we'll hear from. 0:00:57.240 --> 0:01:00.160 DC as we await a decision from the Supreme Court 0:01:00.200 --> 0:01:04.240 on TikTok's fate this week TSMC, I shine a light 0:01:04.280 --> 0:01:06.600 on TSM. These are the depository receipts traded here in 0:01:06.600 --> 0:01:07.400 the United States. 0:01:07.560 --> 0:01:08.720 Even as they traded. 0:01:08.440 --> 0:01:11.200 Lower in Asia, they're higher here in the United States. 0:01:11.600 --> 0:01:14.040 This as we get yet more focus coming from the 0:01:14.080 --> 0:01:18.640 administration of Biden trying to limit the access of TSMC, 0:01:18.800 --> 0:01:23.360 Samsung other chip makers into China, into Huawei, for example. 0:01:23.520 --> 0:01:26.679 But actually are some of these details around what the 0:01:26.680 --> 0:01:29.600 administration has announced actually better than the market had anticipated. 0:01:29.600 --> 0:01:32.840 Peter Elstrom can articulate it. Bloomberg Intelligence coming out with 0:01:32.880 --> 0:01:35.759 a note saying, actually, some of the limitations perhaps aren't 0:01:35.800 --> 0:01:39.360 that bad for phones, for PC chips in particular. 0:01:40.840 --> 0:01:43.520 Yeah, that's right. So what we're seeing is that Biden 0:01:43.520 --> 0:01:46.920 administration is really rushing out a couple of last rounds 0:01:46.920 --> 0:01:50.040 of regulations before they leave office and hand off to 0:01:50.040 --> 0:01:53.000 the Trump administration. In the latest round, what we're hearing 0:01:53.120 --> 0:01:57.400 is that the Commerce Department is asking TSMC to I 0:01:57.440 --> 0:01:59.920 want Semi Inductor, which makes chips for Apple and Nvidi 0:02:00.520 --> 0:02:04.120 and also Samsung other foundries, to put new restrictions on 0:02:04.440 --> 0:02:06.240 their business with Chinese customers. 0:02:06.240 --> 0:02:06.920 In particular. 0:02:07.160 --> 0:02:07.920 The reason is. 0:02:08.000 --> 0:02:11.040 They know that there was a Chinese company that was 0:02:11.080 --> 0:02:15.040 an intermediarity for chips that were made by TSMC and 0:02:15.080 --> 0:02:17.840 then ended up in the hands of Huawei Technologies, the 0:02:17.919 --> 0:02:20.480 Chinese company that's been blacklisted by the US, and it's 0:02:20.520 --> 0:02:22.320 not supposed to be able to get these kinds of 0:02:22.360 --> 0:02:25.240 chips and instead they got that. So now the Commerce 0:02:25.280 --> 0:02:30.480 Department is asking for new regulations where these producers TSMC 0:02:30.600 --> 0:02:33.200 and Samsung will need a license from the US before 0:02:33.200 --> 0:02:36.000 they do business with certain companies in China for the 0:02:36.000 --> 0:02:39.760 most advanced semiconductors, Peter, do we. 0:02:39.800 --> 0:02:43.399 Expect these measures to get this same kind of unwelcome 0:02:44.600 --> 0:02:49.960 reception and objections that the ones unveiled on Monday regarding 0:02:50.040 --> 0:02:53.520 AI technology received. 0:02:53.560 --> 0:02:56.640 That was really an exceptional situation you're referring. There were 0:02:56.680 --> 0:03:00.519 a new round of AI restrictions that hit Nvidian particular. 0:03:00.720 --> 0:03:05.840 Nvidia issued a very sharply critical comment at that time, saying, 0:03:05.880 --> 0:03:07.840 this is not the time for the Biden administration to 0:03:07.880 --> 0:03:10.800 be putting in new rules, especially just days before they 0:03:10.880 --> 0:03:13.639 step out the door and hand off to another administration 0:03:13.680 --> 0:03:16.679 that may have different priorities. The Biden administration, to be fair, 0:03:16.760 --> 0:03:19.040 did give a very long comment period. Those rules are 0:03:19.080 --> 0:03:21.440 not going to go into effect Intel well into the 0:03:21.600 --> 0:03:24.440 Trump administration. But you raise a good question. These chip 0:03:24.480 --> 0:03:27.280 companies are not happy about seeing new rules kind of 0:03:27.360 --> 0:03:30.440 rolled out almost daily now that are going to affect 0:03:30.440 --> 0:03:33.720 their businesses going forward, especially from an administration that's not 0:03:33.720 --> 0:03:36.600 going to be around to enforce them. 0:03:36.840 --> 0:03:38.800 Bloomberg's Peter Elstrom, thank you. 0:03:39.440 --> 0:03:42.440 In other chip news, Intel, the once dominant chip maker, 0:03:42.480 --> 0:03:46.040 now struggling to revive its business and finances plans, to 0:03:46.080 --> 0:03:49.480 turn its venture capital Arm into a separate fund with 0:03:49.560 --> 0:03:52.760 a new name. Bloombergsey and King is here for more. 0:03:53.080 --> 0:03:55.360 I thank you for joining us. How much of a 0:03:55.440 --> 0:04:00.040 blow is this latest development for this storied company, this 0:04:00.240 --> 0:04:03.760 until the capital Venture Arm has invested and put money 0:04:03.800 --> 0:04:06.280 into the likes of ASML in VMware. 0:04:07.360 --> 0:04:09.560 Yeah, I mean, it's not really a blow for the company. 0:04:09.640 --> 0:04:12.080 It's more on an admission that we really need to 0:04:12.120 --> 0:04:15.520 be focusing what resources we have on the core mission, 0:04:15.520 --> 0:04:18.560 which is better products, better production, because those are the 0:04:18.600 --> 0:04:20.240 things that are going to go us back in the game. 0:04:20.640 --> 0:04:24.520 The venture capital Arm is kind of a prototype. It's 0:04:24.560 --> 0:04:28.680 a kind of the venture capital arm for corporations and 0:04:28.720 --> 0:04:31.120 been a model for years and something that they've used 0:04:31.160 --> 0:04:33.720 to promote other parts of the industry or other technologies, 0:04:33.920 --> 0:04:36.480 and so you could argue that it's kind of peripheral 0:04:36.520 --> 0:04:38.480 to the job at hand right now. 0:04:39.000 --> 0:04:42.160 The job at hand is, as you say, focusing in 0:04:42.480 --> 0:04:44.960 what then are the other moves in. You've ported a 0:04:44.960 --> 0:04:47.360 lot about the future of el Terra, for example, which 0:04:47.360 --> 0:04:48.640 it has a significant holding in. 0:04:49.960 --> 0:04:53.080 Yeah, I mean, it has these investments that it's made 0:04:53.120 --> 0:04:55.400 over the years, these companies that is brought in like 0:04:55.480 --> 0:04:59.200 al Terra, like Mobile Eye, And this started on the 0:04:59.480 --> 0:05:04.120 previous Pat Gelsinger. They're saying, look, these things aren't realizing 0:05:04.160 --> 0:05:06.560 the value that they should be doing, so we need 0:05:06.600 --> 0:05:09.560 to find a way to monetize them. So currently Alteria, 0:05:09.560 --> 0:05:11.640 which I think it paid about fifteen billion dollars for 0:05:11.760 --> 0:05:14.720 back in the day, it's looking for investors, people who 0:05:14.760 --> 0:05:17.080 will bring in money to own part of that as 0:05:17.120 --> 0:05:21.640 it tries to take that particular unit to an IPO 0:05:22.080 --> 0:05:23.640 along the in the future. 0:05:25.279 --> 0:05:28.039 I what is her timeline on a successor and then 0:05:28.200 --> 0:05:31.039 also when we might hear how this new venture arm 0:05:31.800 --> 0:05:34.480 being separated will be finally rebranded. 0:05:34.800 --> 0:05:36.520 They have a lot of moving parts right now. 0:05:37.720 --> 0:05:39.800 Yeah, I mean there's an awful lot to track with 0:05:39.839 --> 0:05:42.279 what's happening with this company. They have not given a 0:05:42.320 --> 0:05:44.800 timeline for when they need when they will bring in. 0:05:45.120 --> 0:05:47.560 A CEO, but they need to do that right. 0:05:47.600 --> 0:05:50.400 They need to do this quickly if they need if 0:05:50.400 --> 0:05:52.719 they're going to change direction and make it work, because 0:05:52.760 --> 0:05:56.000 it's not like things are getting better. In terms of 0:05:56.080 --> 0:05:58.760 what's happening with Intel Capital. They've said it's going to 0:05:58.800 --> 0:06:01.760 be really a separate entity by the second half. 0:06:01.560 --> 0:06:02.080 Of this year. 0:06:02.760 --> 0:06:05.320 They wouldn't answer our questions about what it means for 0:06:05.400 --> 0:06:07.680 the finances and where the money is going to come from. 0:06:07.880 --> 0:06:10.880 All they've said is that this will free this venge 0:06:11.000 --> 0:06:15.200 capital unit up to raise capital from external sources, and 0:06:15.240 --> 0:06:17.440 that obviously implies that they're not going to give it 0:06:17.600 --> 0:06:19.360 as much money as I had in the past, if 0:06:19.440 --> 0:06:19.800 at all. 0:06:20.400 --> 0:06:23.760 Thanking was the latest on Intel. We thank you coming up? 0:06:24.200 --> 0:06:27.719 Did Elon Musk just cheap Twitter shareholders and more than 0:06:27.720 --> 0:06:30.080 one hundred and fifty million dollars? The SEC claims, So 0:06:30.240 --> 0:06:33.200 we discussed the alleged disclosure violations that happened way back 0:06:33.200 --> 0:06:36.479 when he spent more than forty billion on Twitter. This 0:06:36.560 --> 0:06:37.560 is Blueberg Technology. 0:06:51.960 --> 0:06:54.440 Elon Musk is being sued by the US Securities in 0:06:54.520 --> 0:06:58.320 Exchange Commission. The SEC is claiming that the tech billionaire 0:06:58.440 --> 0:07:01.800 cheated Twitter shareholders more than one hundred and fifty million 0:07:01.839 --> 0:07:05.599 dollars by waiting too long to disclose his growing steak 0:07:05.720 --> 0:07:09.120 in Twitter as he prepared a takeover bid for more. 0:07:09.160 --> 0:07:12.880 We're joined by Bloomberg's Nicola White here in Washington. Thank 0:07:12.920 --> 0:07:16.320 you for all your reporting on this. This case has 0:07:16.360 --> 0:07:19.560 been building for a while, and yet it did not 0:07:19.960 --> 0:07:21.920 end the usual way that a lot of these do, 0:07:22.040 --> 0:07:24.240 which is with a settlement announcement too. 0:07:24.720 --> 0:07:27.520 Yes, and I think that's pretty on brand for Elon Musk, right, 0:07:28.280 --> 0:07:33.080 So normally these kinds of cases are usually settled because 0:07:33.240 --> 0:07:36.560 they are even though this has generated tons of headlines, 0:07:36.600 --> 0:07:39.240 it is a very very straightforward case. Did you file 0:07:39.360 --> 0:07:41.880 this form or not and did you do it on time? 0:07:42.200 --> 0:07:45.600 And Elon Musk did not, according to the SEC. And 0:07:46.000 --> 0:07:47.560 not only did he not file it on time, he 0:07:47.600 --> 0:07:50.720 did the wrong form. So the SEC said in the 0:07:50.760 --> 0:07:54.200 process he made one hundred and fifty million dollars, and 0:07:54.920 --> 0:07:57.400 you know that really didn't go over well for the. 0:07:57.320 --> 0:07:58.640 Rest of Twitter shareholders. 0:07:58.960 --> 0:08:01.400 One hundred and fifty million dollars not so well for 0:08:01.480 --> 0:08:04.600 Twitter shareholders. Nikola, you've done the mass expert. Of course, 0:08:04.600 --> 0:08:07.360 the lawyer Famsk is saying this is a sham. Ultimately, 0:08:07.400 --> 0:08:09.160 he was just a day late. He didn't mean to 0:08:09.200 --> 0:08:10.920 be doing any of this, and usually you get a 0:08:10.960 --> 0:08:14.280 sort of one hundred thousand dollar fine, not a lot 0:08:14.360 --> 0:08:16.200 more than that. So can you just take the other 0:08:16.240 --> 0:08:18.000 side of the question here, how much do we know 0:08:18.040 --> 0:08:18.760 that there was intent? 0:08:20.160 --> 0:08:22.880 Well, that's there's lots of questions. We don't know right, 0:08:23.760 --> 0:08:30.200 But according to that SEC, he knowingly was purchasing stockpiling 0:08:30.240 --> 0:08:33.160 all this stock while he was also considering a takeover, 0:08:33.440 --> 0:08:35.200 very very as it turns out to be very public 0:08:35.240 --> 0:08:39.840 takeover bid of Twitter. And while he was doing that, 0:08:39.920 --> 0:08:44.840 I mean that triggers just straightforward SEC disclosure requirements and 0:08:44.880 --> 0:08:47.240 he didn't do it. And that's where the SEC just 0:08:47.840 --> 0:08:49.480 comes down to a black and white case of did 0:08:49.480 --> 0:08:50.280 you do it or did you not? 0:08:51.520 --> 0:08:55.040 Nikola in fighting, this is Elon Musk hoping for a 0:08:55.040 --> 0:08:58.560 better deal under Trump. Trump has picked Paul Atkins, who 0:08:58.679 --> 0:09:01.520 has railed against some four and what he sees as 0:09:01.640 --> 0:09:04.800 high penalties in securities cases. 0:09:05.679 --> 0:09:07.040 Is he likely to. 0:09:06.920 --> 0:09:09.839 Get a better hearing with a new administration and new 0:09:09.920 --> 0:09:10.600 SEC chair. 0:09:11.000 --> 0:09:13.880 One would think that would be the case, But again 0:09:13.960 --> 0:09:16.120 there's a lot that we don't know, because when it 0:09:16.160 --> 0:09:19.800 comes down to it, this is a pretty straightforward case. 0:09:20.520 --> 0:09:23.280 The SEC could have taken a more controversial angle. They 0:09:23.320 --> 0:09:26.439 could have said you committed fraud, you allegedly committed fraud, 0:09:26.440 --> 0:09:30.120 and they didn't go that far. So it's a strict 0:09:30.160 --> 0:09:32.800 liability case that it's known in securities law, did you 0:09:32.840 --> 0:09:36.160 do it or did you not? So some securities lawyers 0:09:36.160 --> 0:09:38.960 that I've talked to have said, this is again pretty 0:09:38.960 --> 0:09:43.720 straightforward and may not be such a controversial thing for 0:09:43.960 --> 0:09:45.120 Paul Atkins to pick up. 0:09:45.840 --> 0:09:46.959 Now, Paul Atkins is. 0:09:46.880 --> 0:09:50.360 On record over his years and years in the public 0:09:50.400 --> 0:09:53.079 eye of advocating for lower penalties. 0:09:53.400 --> 0:09:57.160 So who knows, Nikolo White, We'll stay across it. Wait, 0:09:57.160 --> 0:09:57.439 thank you. 0:09:58.000 --> 0:10:00.960 Meanwhile, let's talk about another you know must company, SpaceX, 0:10:01.040 --> 0:10:04.199 continuing to make strides in rocket launches. The company successfully 0:10:04.240 --> 0:10:08.400 launched a pair of commercial satellites carrying two lunarovaprobes headed 0:10:08.520 --> 0:10:09.000 for the Moon. 0:10:09.280 --> 0:10:10.880 Here with more on the commercial space race. 0:10:10.960 --> 0:10:13.680 Chad Anderson, he's Space Capital managing partner joining us now, 0:10:13.720 --> 0:10:17.160 And look, we have perhaps got a slight pushback in 0:10:17.240 --> 0:10:20.240 the next SpaceX launch that we're anticipating. But let's just 0:10:20.280 --> 0:10:22.559 talk about these lunarovas in particular. What does this mean 0:10:22.600 --> 0:10:23.520 for the space industry? 0:10:23.679 --> 0:10:25.559 Sure, I mean, twenty twenty five is going to be 0:10:25.640 --> 0:10:28.679 a massive year for the space economy, and you don't 0:10:28.720 --> 0:10:30.200 need any more proof than what's happened in the first 0:10:30.200 --> 0:10:33.240 couple of weeks. Right, So, yesterday SpaceX launched one hundred 0:10:33.240 --> 0:10:37.560 and thirty payloads different satellites to orbit on a transporter mission. 0:10:38.200 --> 0:10:40.880 Our portfolio companies made up half of those satellites, so 0:10:40.960 --> 0:10:41.400 that was a lot of. 0:10:41.360 --> 0:10:41.959 Fun to watch. 0:10:42.559 --> 0:10:45.760 This morning, they launched two lunar rovers on the same rocket, 0:10:46.280 --> 0:10:49.200 one of which is a Japanese Lander and another is 0:10:50.320 --> 0:10:55.040 Firefly based in Texas and their robotic precursor missions for 0:10:55.120 --> 0:10:59.520 NASA in basically with sensors to do exploratory work in 0:10:59.559 --> 0:11:02.440 preparation for humans to go and land there. And there's 0:11:02.480 --> 0:11:07.079 another lunar mission that's launching next month, So while these 0:11:08.200 --> 0:11:10.040 landers are on their way to the Moon, we're going 0:11:10.080 --> 0:11:12.199 to launch another one as well. And like you mentioned, 0:11:12.640 --> 0:11:14.079 it was supposed to happen today, but it looks like 0:11:14.120 --> 0:11:18.600 weather's pushed it till tomorrow. SpaceX's next gen launch vehicle, 0:11:19.240 --> 0:11:22.960 massive fully reusable launch vehicle, is going to bring the 0:11:23.040 --> 0:11:26.520 price of accessing orbit way down, is going to transform 0:11:26.559 --> 0:11:28.800 the space economy and really accelerate all this growth that 0:11:28.840 --> 0:11:29.720 we're saying so far. 0:11:29.840 --> 0:11:31.600 So Starship we watch. 0:11:31.880 --> 0:11:35.640 We also anticipate one am today New York time, where 0:11:35.640 --> 0:11:39.120 the Blue Origin, which competes against FULK nine, maybe. 0:11:38.960 --> 0:11:41.040 A bit bigger in terms of payloads, is actually going 0:11:41.080 --> 0:11:42.280 to get up with its test flight. 0:11:42.360 --> 0:11:44.200 Yeah, what does that mean, this sort of introduction of 0:11:44.240 --> 0:11:45.600 yet more competitors in the space. 0:11:45.840 --> 0:11:48.480 Well, this is really important because at the moment, the 0:11:48.520 --> 0:11:52.440 SpaceX dominates, right, I mean yeah, I mean it's great 0:11:52.440 --> 0:11:54.760 for a lot of people who are invested in the company. 0:11:54.559 --> 0:11:57.680 They are launching the majority of rockets. I mean, twenty 0:11:57.720 --> 0:12:01.920 twenty four was a record year. SpaceX launched over half 0:12:02.000 --> 0:12:04.720 of the global launches. Last year they launched over ninety 0:12:04.720 --> 0:12:06.840 percent of all the mass that went to orbit went 0:12:06.840 --> 0:12:11.080 through SpaceX. Right, they are the best option on the 0:12:11.080 --> 0:12:14.000 market and in some cases the only option on the market. 0:12:14.040 --> 0:12:17.280 So to have other players and other competition is going 0:12:17.320 --> 0:12:19.839 to be huge. We've been looking at the interesting thing 0:12:19.880 --> 0:12:21.880 between SpaceX and Blue Origin is just you know, you 0:12:21.960 --> 0:12:25.720 got Bezos and Musk right to send to billionaires, but 0:12:26.360 --> 0:12:28.360 they were the companies were founded at the same time 0:12:28.480 --> 0:12:31.040 in two thousand and two. Up until a couple years ago, 0:12:31.080 --> 0:12:33.840 they had invested the same amount of money into both companies. 0:12:33.840 --> 0:12:36.120 And you look at what SpaceX has done over that period, right, 0:12:36.240 --> 0:12:39.800 just really dominated the market, enabled all of this entrepreneurship, 0:12:40.040 --> 0:12:43.920 innovation and private capital. Meanwhile, Jeff Bezos has been launching 0:12:43.960 --> 0:12:46.200 these sort of luxury trips to the edge of space 0:12:46.240 --> 0:12:49.160 with these small rockets. New Glen is their vehicle that 0:12:49.240 --> 0:12:52.200 is going to launch satellites and enable them to do 0:12:52.240 --> 0:12:55.200 all those things like lunar missions and everything else that 0:12:55.200 --> 0:12:57.000 Blue Origin wants to do. So it's really important that 0:12:57.000 --> 0:12:58.960 they get this vehicle up, and it's really important for 0:12:58.960 --> 0:13:02.120 the rest of us because competition is good. It ushers 0:13:02.120 --> 0:13:04.240 in innovation and brings prices down for everyone. 0:13:06.040 --> 0:13:10.040 Chad, what do you see the incoming Trump administration doing 0:13:10.360 --> 0:13:13.880 to help foster the space industry from your standpoint, and 0:13:13.920 --> 0:13:15.800 what are some of the things you would like to 0:13:15.840 --> 0:13:19.200 see the new president do when he takes office. 0:13:19.880 --> 0:13:23.040 Well, I mean, we'd certainly expect to see a greater emphasis, 0:13:23.320 --> 0:13:27.439 a greater promotion of the space economy, a greater integration 0:13:27.520 --> 0:13:32.679 of commercial capabilities into government programs. I think we've already 0:13:32.720 --> 0:13:36.520 seen in this transitionary period the geopolitical turmoil. I think 0:13:36.559 --> 0:13:40.080 a lot of that is going to spur additional growth 0:13:40.080 --> 0:13:42.200 and defense spending, a lot of which is going to 0:13:42.200 --> 0:13:47.040 go to space companies. There's going to be an increased 0:13:47.080 --> 0:13:53.880 reliance on the providers that that have the capability. SpaceX again, 0:13:54.160 --> 0:13:58.040 is chief amongst them. They're most likely to benefit here, 0:13:58.120 --> 0:14:01.520 not just because of his buddy status, but also because 0:14:01.520 --> 0:14:03.439 they have the best solution on the market and again 0:14:03.840 --> 0:14:06.040 in some cases the only solution on the market. So 0:14:06.080 --> 0:14:08.480 the government is going to rely even more heavily on 0:14:08.559 --> 0:14:11.120 Starshield and their government businesses, but others are going to 0:14:11.160 --> 0:14:15.360 benefit as well with more competition coming online, more novel 0:14:15.600 --> 0:14:20.280 new capabilities. We do expect to see streamlining of regulation, 0:14:20.400 --> 0:14:23.560 you know, and pro growth stances to really help some 0:14:23.640 --> 0:14:27.840 of these new and novel space capabilities come online this year. 0:14:29.240 --> 0:14:32.280 Chad, let's talk about some of those regulations and some 0:14:32.360 --> 0:14:36.080 of the regulatory pressures that the industry has faced. What 0:14:36.200 --> 0:14:39.520 are some of the specific areas of relief that the 0:14:39.640 --> 0:14:42.560 industry would like to see well. 0:14:43.240 --> 0:14:47.920 Regulation plays a key role in a lot of space activities. Interestingly, though, 0:14:47.960 --> 0:14:50.240 the US government has actually been very responsive to this. 0:14:50.560 --> 0:14:53.040 For example, I mean, there was an Australian company that 0:14:53.360 --> 0:14:58.960 launched a satellite that could look up and evaluate and 0:14:59.000 --> 0:15:02.120 see other satellites and what was going on there. You 0:15:02.120 --> 0:15:04.640 couldn't do that in the US and many other countries, 0:15:04.640 --> 0:15:06.720 but there was a regulatory loophole in Australia. 0:15:06.720 --> 0:15:07.640 That allowed them to do that. 0:15:08.040 --> 0:15:10.320 As soon as they launched that satellite, the US government 0:15:11.200 --> 0:15:16.480 responded and enabled US companies to be competitive, and we're 0:15:16.600 --> 0:15:18.600 now seeing a lot of that data coming down. So 0:15:19.000 --> 0:15:23.240 we've already seen responsiveness from a regulatory front. I think 0:15:24.080 --> 0:15:27.800 an interesting angle here is that we expect to see 0:15:27.800 --> 0:15:31.880 a sort of about face on climate policy, and so 0:15:32.120 --> 0:15:36.760 I think climate solutions are going to be a key 0:15:36.800 --> 0:15:41.920 area for private capital, as they were during his last term, 0:15:42.120 --> 0:15:45.600 for you know, companies to come in and provide innovative solutions, 0:15:45.640 --> 0:15:47.240 solutions funded by private capital. 0:15:49.000 --> 0:15:51.240 Chad Anderson of Space Capital, we thank you. 0:16:00.000 --> 0:16:02.320 As we all await a decision from the Supreme Court 0:16:02.320 --> 0:16:04.800 on TikTok, let's just look to the future of social 0:16:04.840 --> 0:16:08.320 media under the incoming Trump administration and perhaps an alternative 0:16:08.400 --> 0:16:12.200 to content moderation as we know it middleware. It's essentially 0:16:12.280 --> 0:16:16.520 software built into tech platforms which gives users, rather than platforms, 0:16:16.760 --> 0:16:19.640 the power to moderate their own social media experiences. 0:16:20.200 --> 0:16:22.400 One of the people who've been looking into it authoring. 0:16:22.040 --> 0:16:25.800 On it Renee darresta social media research at georgetownsmcurt School 0:16:25.800 --> 0:16:28.200 of Public Policy and co authoring the report on this 0:16:28.400 --> 0:16:31.800 very topic and what's so interesting is where the examples 0:16:31.800 --> 0:16:34.440 are being used and technically what this third party would offer. 0:16:34.760 --> 0:16:37.880 So is it already being used in decentralized platforms like 0:16:38.040 --> 0:16:38.600 are you Sky? 0:16:38.720 --> 0:16:41.240 And what exactly is it helping us do as a user? 0:16:42.160 --> 0:16:43.040 Thanks for having me on. 0:16:43.080 --> 0:16:46.040 I'm excited for talking about this publicly. It's been so 0:16:46.120 --> 0:16:48.760 much an obscure academic area of research for a long time. 0:16:49.040 --> 0:16:51.760 So middleware tries to give users the ability to better 0:16:51.800 --> 0:16:54.840 control their experience. The two areas that we talk about 0:16:54.840 --> 0:16:58.240 this really mattering in our content curation, meaning deciding what 0:16:58.240 --> 0:17:00.720 you're going to see in your feed, and then moderation, 0:17:00.920 --> 0:17:02.720 so deciding what you are not going to see in 0:17:02.720 --> 0:17:04.400 your feed, or what you're going to see less of or. 0:17:04.320 --> 0:17:05.479 What might have a label over it. 0:17:06.600 --> 0:17:10.040 Middleware right now is most visible on blue Sky because 0:17:10.040 --> 0:17:12.679 Blue Sky is providing an opportunity for users to go 0:17:12.720 --> 0:17:15.560 onto the platform and create their own feeds where you 0:17:15.600 --> 0:17:18.040 can subscribe to something like a topic where you say, 0:17:18.040 --> 0:17:19.520 you know what, I really want to follow a feed 0:17:19.520 --> 0:17:21.560 about my favorite sports team. I really want to follow 0:17:21.560 --> 0:17:24.440 a feed about like gardening books, you name it. Somebody's 0:17:24.480 --> 0:17:26.879 created that feed and they've curated the people in it 0:17:27.600 --> 0:17:29.840 and you can kind of you add a little emoji 0:17:29.920 --> 0:17:31.480 to a post that indicates that you want it to 0:17:31.480 --> 0:17:33.240 show up in the feed. It's just a really interesting 0:17:33.280 --> 0:17:35.919 way to get more granular and have more control. And 0:17:36.000 --> 0:17:37.439 on the flip side, you can do the same thing 0:17:37.440 --> 0:17:39.520 with labeling. If there's certain people that you don't want 0:17:39.520 --> 0:17:42.840 to see content from, if there's certain classes of content 0:17:42.920 --> 0:17:45.000 that you just don't want to see, you can subscribe 0:17:45.040 --> 0:17:48.080 to a labeler and that labeler will label content and 0:17:48.160 --> 0:17:50.000 take it out of your feed or hide it from you. 0:17:50.280 --> 0:17:53.080 So it's a really interesting opportunity to go there and 0:17:53.119 --> 0:17:55.399 to have this much more modular kind of create your 0:17:55.440 --> 0:17:58.560 own experience, Renette. 0:17:58.560 --> 0:18:00.800 This sounds like something that would have a fair amount 0:18:00.840 --> 0:18:04.800 of appeal for users who've been frustrated by their experiences, 0:18:05.320 --> 0:18:07.280 especially in the last year or so in some of 0:18:07.320 --> 0:18:10.280 the major platforms. But there does seem to be a catch, 0:18:10.560 --> 0:18:13.879 and that is you need interoperability and you need the 0:18:13.920 --> 0:18:16.640 buy in of those platforms, and the paper even makes 0:18:16.760 --> 0:18:19.080 note of that, how do you get past that hurdle? 0:18:20.240 --> 0:18:22.000 Well, one of the reasons why we did the paper 0:18:22.080 --> 0:18:25.160 now is arguing that the adoption on platforms like Blue 0:18:25.200 --> 0:18:28.560 Sky or even platforms like Mastodon. 0:18:28.200 --> 0:18:29.760 Which preceded Blue Sky. 0:18:29.840 --> 0:18:34.120 This protocol based social media provide an opportunity to experience 0:18:34.160 --> 0:18:37.000 it without trying to prevail upon the giants to do 0:18:37.040 --> 0:18:39.600 it themselves. There have been papers written about middleware in 0:18:39.640 --> 0:18:42.760 the past, Frank Fukuyama at Stanford rot One in twenty 0:18:42.840 --> 0:18:46.000 nineteen arguing that this would actually be a really effective 0:18:46.080 --> 0:18:50.320 tool to reduce centralized platform power right to devolve more 0:18:50.359 --> 0:18:53.200 power down to the user. I think you are seeing 0:18:53.320 --> 0:18:56.040 signs that platforms want to do that. You're seeing Elon 0:18:56.160 --> 0:18:58.520 Musk talk about giving users more control over the feed. 0:18:59.040 --> 0:19:02.399 You're seeing Mark Zucker makes some pretty remarkable pendulum swings 0:19:02.400 --> 0:19:05.159 in particular directions that's alienating a large part of the 0:19:05.240 --> 0:19:07.919 user base, saying like, hey, actually, here, you can control 0:19:07.960 --> 0:19:09.720 it yourself. I think it's something you're going to see 0:19:09.720 --> 0:19:12.119 from them. They're going to start to try to opt 0:19:12.160 --> 0:19:15.639 in in small ways and give users small opportunities. But otherwise, 0:19:15.680 --> 0:19:19.560 you're absolutely right. It is very much at you at 0:19:19.560 --> 0:19:22.200 the pleasure of the platforms that such a thing can 0:19:22.240 --> 0:19:24.720 exist when dealing with one of the large centralized giants. 0:19:26.200 --> 0:19:30.359 And we've seen some of those centralized giants that moderation 0:19:30.560 --> 0:19:35.479 has been a labor intensive endeavor. How would middlewere not 0:19:36.040 --> 0:19:39.440 suffer from the same sort of challenge, and who would 0:19:39.480 --> 0:19:40.280 do the heavy lifting? 0:19:41.280 --> 0:19:43.919 This is where I think the trade offs actually are. Obviously, 0:19:44.760 --> 0:19:48.120 we're starting to see people in the community who are 0:19:48.160 --> 0:19:51.359 doing this as almost a labor of love for their community. 0:19:51.440 --> 0:19:53.600 It's very much like, hey, I, as a member of 0:19:53.600 --> 0:19:56.480 this community, maybe a marginalized community, don't want to see 0:19:56.480 --> 0:19:58.720 content from these people who I think are likely to 0:19:58.720 --> 0:20:02.199 harass me. And so so you're seeing labelers exist to 0:20:02.400 --> 0:20:05.720 meet a very particular niche need. What we write about 0:20:05.720 --> 0:20:08.199 in the paper though, is that ultimately you do have 0:20:08.280 --> 0:20:11.960 to create some sort of economic means by which it's 0:20:12.040 --> 0:20:14.560 not just a volunteer labor of love in order for 0:20:14.600 --> 0:20:17.399 it to scale in any material way. So we tried 0:20:17.440 --> 0:20:20.359 to present as balanced a view as possible. Here's a 0:20:20.440 --> 0:20:22.760 vision for what's possible in the world. Here are the 0:20:22.840 --> 0:20:24.880 challenges in the ways that we need to get past it. 0:20:25.040 --> 0:20:27.119 But I think again, as you're noting, you're seeing a 0:20:27.160 --> 0:20:30.080 moment where people are fleeing. You know, people's fled x, 0:20:30.080 --> 0:20:32.040 I should say on the left because they didn't like 0:20:32.119 --> 0:20:35.879 Elon's changes to moderation and the vibes that are created. 0:20:35.920 --> 0:20:39.520 People had previously fled to parlor and truth social when 0:20:39.560 --> 0:20:42.919 they were on the right and didn't like certain you know, dynamics. 0:20:43.080 --> 0:20:45.080 So I think that you're starting to see users begin 0:20:45.160 --> 0:20:48.200 to realize that they don't have to commit to one site. 0:20:48.240 --> 0:20:49.800 And this is where I think there's a real interesting 0:20:49.840 --> 0:20:50.960 opportunity moment. 0:20:51.520 --> 0:20:55.040