WEBVTT - James Duncan on Working with Coore & Crenshaw and Building Brambles

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<v Speaker 1>I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset. When

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<v Speaker 1>I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.

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<v Speaker 1>And when I find my ball in a fried egg,

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<v Speaker 1>Frida egg, the dreaded Frida egg, Frida eg, fridagg bride

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<v Speaker 1>egg Lie, I'm about ready to run off of the hum.

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome back to another edition of the Frida Egg Podcast.

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<v Speaker 1>Today's episode is with James Duncan. James Duncan is a

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<v Speaker 1>longtime associate for Coren Crenshaw. He has also worked with

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<v Speaker 1>Tom Doak. He is a great golf mind and I

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<v Speaker 1>really enjoyed speaking with him. He's been a fundamental driving

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<v Speaker 1>force behind the new Corn Crenshaw golf course in north

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<v Speaker 1>of Napa called Brambles, which is being grassed right now,

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<v Speaker 1>so it's getting close to having golf holes open and

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<v Speaker 1>ready to play. I think they're targeting next year for

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<v Speaker 1>a full opening. But it was great to talk to James.

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<v Speaker 1>He's a wealth of knowledge and just very thoughtful person. So,

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<v Speaker 1>without further ado, here is our episode with James Duncan.

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<v Speaker 1>With it, can you explain that internship that you signed

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<v Speaker 1>up for so you're in college? Like just the backstory,

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<v Speaker 1>a little bit on that.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So you know, I'm in Copenhagen as a civil

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<v Speaker 2>engineering student and there's no such thing as a golf program,

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<v Speaker 2>so you had to kind of fake it. You had

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<v Speaker 2>to make it sound like engineering, like.

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<v Speaker 1>A program to be a golf architect.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, there was none of that, so you had to

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<v Speaker 2>go to golfing to do it. I think that my

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<v Speaker 2>sister someone had given me Tom Doak's book The Anatomy

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<v Speaker 2>of a Golf Course. It had just come out, and

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<v Speaker 2>he describes his journey, and of course I knew about

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<v Speaker 2>Robert Trent Jones and the Cornell thing and all that,

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<v Speaker 2>but this was a way to again use my whatever

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<v Speaker 2>credits I had to take in Copenhagen as a way

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<v Speaker 2>to get my toe in the water on the golf side.

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<v Speaker 2>I knew I had to go to Scotland to do it.

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<v Speaker 2>My sister lived there, had just moved a couple of

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<v Speaker 2>years earlier. All my father's family was from there. We

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<v Speaker 2>always used to visit as kids. We would go up

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<v Speaker 2>to the Highlands a little bit more than so of

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<v Speaker 2>s Andrews. We'd go to Edinburgh, we'd go to North

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<v Speaker 2>Berwick and we'd go up to the Highlands. But it

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<v Speaker 2>was always a place. It was a place I was

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<v Speaker 2>familiar with, and I just felt like, you know, here's

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<v Speaker 2>this is this is where you should go if you're

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<v Speaker 2>trying to get into this golf golf thing.

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<v Speaker 1>So so you then applied for this internship that you

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<v Speaker 1>went to the dean of dean of the school or

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<v Speaker 1>was something to get the internship, and they you.

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<v Speaker 2>Know what I did, and I went to visit my sister,

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<v Speaker 2>which is always an excuse to play a lot of golf.

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<v Speaker 2>And then I set up a meeting with the Scottish

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<v Speaker 2>Golf Union and it was through that group that they

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<v Speaker 2>recommended some companies. I then set up meetings to go

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<v Speaker 2>and visit these companies talk to the people involved. The

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<v Speaker 2>one I was originally was going to do didn't work out.

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<v Speaker 2>It was up in Sterling, didn't work out, and I

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<v Speaker 2>had all but sort of given up on it and

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<v Speaker 2>i'd actually gone back to Copenhagen. Then I got a

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<v Speaker 2>phone call. I think this is sort of pre email.

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<v Speaker 2>I got a phone call or somehow this other company,

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<v Speaker 2>the one that I wound up going to, reached out

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<v Speaker 2>and said, look, we've heard about what you're doing. Sorry

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<v Speaker 2>it's taken us so long. To respond to your correspondence.

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<v Speaker 2>And then this guy Morris, his name was Maurice Gray.

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<v Speaker 2>Marris said, I'm going to be in Copenhagen next week

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<v Speaker 2>by coincidence. Can we meet up and just talk about

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<v Speaker 2>what you want to do? And and I met and

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<v Speaker 2>it was just one of those where seems legitimate, let's

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<v Speaker 2>let's do it, let's go and then off I went

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<v Speaker 2>often to Aberdeen, which we were just talking about previously.

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<v Speaker 1>So you get this internship. Your job is to travel

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<v Speaker 1>around Scotland and talk to superintendents all over the country. Yep,

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<v Speaker 1>I mean I imagine that probably couldn't be a better

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<v Speaker 1>learning experience for somebody trying to learn the intricacies of

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<v Speaker 1>a golf course.

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<v Speaker 2>It was a total manna from the heavens. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>this is just so lucky that that's what they wanted

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<v Speaker 2>me to do. We talked about in generality is what

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<v Speaker 2>they did and what they were trying to do. But

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<v Speaker 2>for them to give me that brief, here's the car,

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<v Speaker 2>go and see as much golf as you can, meet

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<v Speaker 2>as many people as you can talk to them, it

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<v Speaker 2>was just fantastic. I'll do two or three a day.

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<v Speaker 1>Is there a situation like a course and a superintendent

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<v Speaker 1>that stand out that you still think about like today

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<v Speaker 1>from that trip.

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<v Speaker 2>Hands down, George Brown at Turnbury, George who since passed away,

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<v Speaker 2>was just a you can just tell this guy is

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<v Speaker 2>a lovely human being. And he was just so generous

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<v Speaker 2>with his time. He'd hosted open championships. He was like

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<v Speaker 2>a big deal, here comes this pimple faith faced, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>engineering student from Denmark. The fact that he even met

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<v Speaker 2>with me, but he took time and he said, let's go.

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<v Speaker 2>He had a little cottage on the golf course. My

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<v Speaker 2>wife has prepared lunch for us, Let's go and sit down,

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<v Speaker 2>have lunch. And he basically took half a day to

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<v Speaker 2>tour him around and talk about golf. And I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>just a wonderful, wonderful man. I would say he stands

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<v Speaker 2>out as someone I just remember so vividly to this day.

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<v Speaker 1>That would be crazy. I mean, so, how many courses

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<v Speaker 1>did you see over how deed, over how long of

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<v Speaker 1>a time.

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<v Speaker 2>I think it was about one hundred, one hundred and

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<v Speaker 2>twenty somewhere in that range, all the way from the

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<v Speaker 2>turn Breeze and the Old Courses and the Breastwick's two

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<v Speaker 2>places you've never heard of, but it's interesting the ones

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<v Speaker 2>you've never heard of. People I now meet will say

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<v Speaker 2>and we'll say, have you been to this place? And

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<v Speaker 2>sure enough a Boat of Garden is another one. Boat

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<v Speaker 2>of Garden I remember going to and just being just

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<v Speaker 2>it's just a fascinating place because it's you probably wouldn't

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<v Speaker 2>pick it as a place to play golf except it

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<v Speaker 2>was in this town. It's very sporting property up over

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<v Speaker 2>this hill, down this hollow and over and cross and

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<v Speaker 2>heather hills and just very very interesting golf course. But

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<v Speaker 2>now I think now that people are more conscious about

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<v Speaker 2>Scottish golf, the diversity of Scottish golf, the interesting ways

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<v Speaker 2>in which well why can't that be a golf course

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<v Speaker 2>as opposed to just sort of what stereotypically it is

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<v Speaker 2>thought of as a golf course. That's now, now that

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<v Speaker 2>there's more awareness about golf and golf course design and

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<v Speaker 2>golf history, those places are increasingly sort of cropping back

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<v Speaker 2>up as oh, yeah, I remember when we're going to

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<v Speaker 2>Boat of Goden.

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<v Speaker 1>That's like, I mean, that's the best way to see

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<v Speaker 1>you know at that age too is when you confusibly

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<v Speaker 1>do it is before you have family, before you have

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<v Speaker 1>anything holding you back from you can just go see

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<v Speaker 1>as many golf courses as you possibly can. Because you're

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<v Speaker 1>a college student. This is what you want to do, right.

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<v Speaker 2>You have to remember at that time any ideas I

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<v Speaker 2>might have had about golf course design and strategy or

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<v Speaker 2>whatever very very early. So I was just taking in

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<v Speaker 2>just the diversity of the courses. You got to place

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<v Speaker 2>like Ollapool way up northwest where it could have been.

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<v Speaker 2>It's just a wonderful place to play golf. So I

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<v Speaker 2>think I filed that away too, that let's not get

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<v Speaker 2>too Yes there's strategy, Yes there's design and organizing things

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<v Speaker 2>in a certain way, but a big part of it

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<v Speaker 2>is also just sort of capturing where you are while

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<v Speaker 2>you're playing and just having that be an essential part

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<v Speaker 2>of the of the golf experience. And I think that's

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<v Speaker 2>what the Scots. They was probably too cheap to do

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<v Speaker 2>too much, so they would just kind of play the

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<v Speaker 2>courses as they were, which resulted in you just playing

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<v Speaker 2>the natural ground and the natural conditions, do as little

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<v Speaker 2>to it as you can. Those things have stayed with

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<v Speaker 2>me to this day. When I think about design, I

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<v Speaker 2>really try and think about how do you how do

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<v Speaker 2>you capture the essence of where you are while you're playing.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean one of the things that recently was like

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<v Speaker 1>the US Open at the country Club that I think

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<v Speaker 1>people were I think it captivated people both on the

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<v Speaker 1>television people there. But what you just hit on, I

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<v Speaker 1>think one of the things that I think that the

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<v Speaker 1>country Club did so well was it exuded like that

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<v Speaker 1>sense of place that you're talking about, Like you knew

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<v Speaker 1>when you were watching on TV that this tournament was

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<v Speaker 1>in Boston because of the landscape and the colors and

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<v Speaker 1>the textures that were presented at that golf course. And

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<v Speaker 1>I think that's one of the things that often goes

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<v Speaker 1>a little bit overlooked with golf, like great golf courses

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<v Speaker 1>or they usually give you like you know where you

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<v Speaker 1>are when you're there. It's not you know. And obviously

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<v Speaker 1>there are certain courses that pull this off, but it's

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<v Speaker 1>not a course trying to be something that it doesn't.

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<v Speaker 1>The landscape doesn't want it to be. Right.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think it starts off with you as a

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<v Speaker 2>club or as a developer or as an operator that

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<v Speaker 2>you want to do you value that. It has to

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<v Speaker 2>stop that if you start off saying I want to

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<v Speaker 2>be like take a pick of a famous course and

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<v Speaker 2>you just work towards that. You're never going to have

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<v Speaker 2>what we're talking about. But if you value the natural

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<v Speaker 2>characteristics of your property and the setting and the context,

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<v Speaker 2>then it takes you in a different direction. That is

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<v Speaker 2>exactly what you're describing with Brookline.

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<v Speaker 1>I feel like that is like I say, and I

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<v Speaker 1>don't use this from lightly, but that's like a disease

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<v Speaker 1>that runs through America. Is the idea in American golf

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<v Speaker 1>is like, we need to be like this, And for

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<v Speaker 1>years it was Augusta for you know, and then or

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<v Speaker 1>you know, for local clubs, it's we need to be

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<v Speaker 1>this prominent club down the street, versus like the idea

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<v Speaker 1>of just being yourself right eighteen holes.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean why now, recently, in the last ten fifteen years,

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<v Speaker 2>twelve holes, thirteen six. It's something that has gained awareness

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<v Speaker 2>and people are doing in great fashion. But until that,

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<v Speaker 2>it was all, well, you've got to have eighteen you've

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<v Speaker 2>got to have past seventy two, you've got to have

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<v Speaker 2>you know, four fives and four three's, and it's got

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<v Speaker 2>to be a certain distance. I'm old enough to remember

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<v Speaker 2>the when in the nineties when all the development was happening,

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<v Speaker 2>you had to have had to be hard, It had

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<v Speaker 2>to be difficult. Fun was not really in the equation

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<v Speaker 2>because it's all about the rankings, and you only got

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<v Speaker 2>ranked if you were difficult, and this was more difficult

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<v Speaker 2>than that. It was an insane way of thinking about golf,

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<v Speaker 2>at least from my point of view, when the essence

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<v Speaker 2>of the game is to have fun.

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<v Speaker 1>So what was your first, like construction job that you

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<v Speaker 1>were on a crew?

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<v Speaker 2>So the company that I went to the internship with

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<v Speaker 2>they were also doing a nine hole renovation at Kilmarnarch,

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<v Speaker 2>which is up by Glasgow on the West coast. I

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<v Speaker 2>can't say I was involved in any meaningful degree other

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<v Speaker 2>than I was on a construction site. There's all this

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<v Speaker 2>stuff happening. This is really cool and I want to

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<v Speaker 2>keep moving towards this, but I didn't. I didn't have time.

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<v Speaker 2>It was there was an academic component. Had to do

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<v Speaker 2>the coursework and prepare for that. Then I went back

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<v Speaker 2>to Copenhagen and finished finished my studies. But then at

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<v Speaker 2>the end of it had to write a thesis and

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<v Speaker 2>that's what took me to the States. Same process, write

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<v Speaker 2>send off letters. This time to the USGA and ask

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<v Speaker 2>them for recommendations on where to go to further pursue

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<v Speaker 2>what I was interested in, and they very kindly. Jim

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<v Speaker 2>Snow and Kimberly Rusher wrote me a letter back and said,

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<v Speaker 2>these are the universities we would recommend, with the usual suspects,

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<v Speaker 2>including Cornell. And that's how I wound up at Cornell.

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<v Speaker 2>And as some of your listeners may know, they met

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<v Speaker 2>all the usual suspects, met Tom Doak and Gil Hanson,

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<v Speaker 2>Jim Bina, and that was my real entry to what

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<v Speaker 2>was going on at that time in the US. These

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<v Speaker 2>guys with these young mavericks just doing all this interesting

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<v Speaker 2>fun stuff, and I somehow got a tone the door

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<v Speaker 2>and here we are.

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<v Speaker 1>That had to be an interesting experience going from I imagine,

0:13:05.120 --> 0:13:07.960
<v Speaker 1>you know, you're in Copenhagen where nobody's doing any of this,

0:13:08.120 --> 0:13:11.040
<v Speaker 1>and then you move, you know, across to the United

0:13:11.040 --> 0:13:14.080
<v Speaker 1>States and you meet these other young guys that are

0:13:14.120 --> 0:13:16.320
<v Speaker 1>all doing like It had to be kind of like

0:13:16.360 --> 0:13:20.040
<v Speaker 1>a real I don't know what the right word is,

0:13:20.080 --> 0:13:23.280
<v Speaker 1>but like when you're you know, young, and you you know,

0:13:23.520 --> 0:13:26.080
<v Speaker 1>like had to be just a neat experience to like

0:13:26.360 --> 0:13:29.480
<v Speaker 1>get and be with other people where you can discuss

0:13:29.520 --> 0:13:30.520
<v Speaker 1>this stuff, right.

0:13:31.520 --> 0:13:33.360
<v Speaker 2>And I think as one of those, you don't appreciate

0:13:33.440 --> 0:13:36.440
<v Speaker 2>how lucky you were I was at that time until now.

0:13:36.480 --> 0:13:37.840
<v Speaker 2>I mean I look back on now, it's say, what

0:13:37.960 --> 0:13:43.320
<v Speaker 2>an incredible stroke of luck those guys at that time

0:13:44.640 --> 0:13:47.679
<v Speaker 2>ninety three ninety four, somewhere there where we're building three

0:13:47.760 --> 0:13:49.640
<v Speaker 2>hundred golf courses a year in the country. There's just

0:13:49.760 --> 0:13:54.840
<v Speaker 2>nothing but opportunities, interesting thoughts, things happening. So yeah, it

0:13:54.880 --> 0:13:56.480
<v Speaker 2>was a perfect time in a perfect place.

0:13:57.280 --> 0:13:59.840
<v Speaker 1>What did you notice different from what they were doing

0:14:00.080 --> 0:14:02.079
<v Speaker 1>from what everybody else was doing.

0:14:02.400 --> 0:14:05.320
<v Speaker 2>Well, again, I didn't know enough to really know the

0:14:05.320 --> 0:14:08.000
<v Speaker 2>difference at the time. I just knew that these guys

0:14:08.080 --> 0:14:11.000
<v Speaker 2>were doing some interesting stuff. We went down the Stonewall

0:14:11.040 --> 0:14:14.280
<v Speaker 2>had just been built. This is right when Gil had

0:14:14.360 --> 0:14:18.520
<v Speaker 2>left Tom and they were all sort of pursuing very

0:14:18.559 --> 0:14:23.280
<v Speaker 2>interesting things. But I can't really say I had a

0:14:23.280 --> 0:14:27.240
<v Speaker 2>frame of reference other than I went to Gusta, saw

0:14:27.280 --> 0:14:30.760
<v Speaker 2>the tournament and just you'd never seen I mean, you

0:14:30.760 --> 0:14:33.160
<v Speaker 2>guess have been. I mean, it's just unbelievable when you

0:14:33.200 --> 0:14:36.960
<v Speaker 2>actually see it. Went to Marion, went to National, I

0:14:36.960 --> 0:14:38.880
<v Speaker 2>means just had a chance to see all these special

0:14:38.920 --> 0:14:43.800
<v Speaker 2>places and was blown away by all of it, and mercifully,

0:14:43.960 --> 0:14:47.560
<v Speaker 2>I mean, worked with guys who knew what they were

0:14:47.560 --> 0:14:50.600
<v Speaker 2>doing and had a chance to learn from them. But

0:14:51.160 --> 0:14:53.600
<v Speaker 2>back then I was a glorified ditch digger. I mean

0:14:53.640 --> 0:14:55.760
<v Speaker 2>it was just out there. Just tell me what to

0:14:55.800 --> 0:14:56.880
<v Speaker 2>do and I'll try and do it.

0:14:57.840 --> 0:14:58.560
<v Speaker 1>Maybe man good?

0:15:00.280 --> 0:15:03.120
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, when you on?

0:15:03.240 --> 0:15:05.240
<v Speaker 1>Did you link up with Bill and Ben? How did

0:15:05.280 --> 0:15:05.840
<v Speaker 1>that happen?

0:15:06.560 --> 0:15:11.880
<v Speaker 2>I had met obviously knew them by reputation. I had

0:15:12.000 --> 0:15:15.480
<v Speaker 2>met Ben. I'd met over at National. He was practicing

0:15:15.600 --> 0:15:21.080
<v Speaker 2>for the ninety five years Open at Shinnacock went that's

0:15:21.200 --> 0:15:26.600
<v Speaker 2>right before Forward there you go. He was practicing over there,

0:15:26.720 --> 0:15:29.960
<v Speaker 2>and of course I was just awestrock and he said National,

0:15:30.080 --> 0:15:32.240
<v Speaker 2>I mean, come on, he loves the place and he's

0:15:32.280 --> 0:15:37.880
<v Speaker 2>over like radiant beaming. He's playing. Well, you know, he

0:15:38.120 --> 0:15:39.920
<v Speaker 2>just won the Masters. I mean, it's been crunch. He

0:15:39.960 --> 0:15:42.280
<v Speaker 2>just won the Masters and he's at National. So I mean,

0:15:42.480 --> 0:15:47.240
<v Speaker 2>I'm just you know, completely all strock. And then Bill

0:15:47.400 --> 0:15:49.800
<v Speaker 2>I met I think at one of Tom's events he

0:15:49.880 --> 0:15:54.200
<v Speaker 2>had the Renaissance Cup. I think just met him briefly,

0:15:55.720 --> 0:15:57.840
<v Speaker 2>But I do remember at that time thinking if I

0:15:57.920 --> 0:16:01.560
<v Speaker 2>ever have a chance to work with those guys, I'd

0:16:01.560 --> 0:16:05.600
<v Speaker 2>love to pursue it. And Tom very generously at that time.

0:16:06.640 --> 0:16:09.680
<v Speaker 2>Wasn't this is before Bandon Dunes and we had a

0:16:09.720 --> 0:16:11.200
<v Speaker 2>few things going on, but it wasn't like he was

0:16:11.760 --> 0:16:14.880
<v Speaker 2>had way too much work to handle. So he very

0:16:14.920 --> 0:16:17.040
<v Speaker 2>generously I think he called Bill and said, look, I

0:16:17.080 --> 0:16:20.680
<v Speaker 2>have this guy. He's doing some things with us, but

0:16:20.800 --> 0:16:24.480
<v Speaker 2>he has expressed an interest in working with you. And

0:16:26.120 --> 0:16:29.080
<v Speaker 2>I have to tell this story because it just again

0:16:29.280 --> 0:16:32.160
<v Speaker 2>just illustrates the sort of person that Bill is. And

0:16:32.800 --> 0:16:35.840
<v Speaker 2>Ben also that I had to go back to Denmark.

0:16:36.440 --> 0:16:38.720
<v Speaker 2>There was some family my father was very ill at

0:16:38.720 --> 0:16:42.000
<v Speaker 2>the time. I had to go back to Denmark, and

0:16:42.280 --> 0:16:47.760
<v Speaker 2>I had left Bill a voicemail before leaving, and I

0:16:47.840 --> 0:16:52.040
<v Speaker 2>obviously didn't expect anything at all. Bill calls me back

0:16:52.600 --> 0:16:57.640
<v Speaker 2>in Denmark on the landline in my parents' house, apologizing

0:16:58.160 --> 0:17:03.200
<v Speaker 2>profusely for not having called me back four days after. So,

0:17:03.240 --> 0:17:06.600
<v Speaker 2>I mean, someone who does that for you, and and

0:17:07.080 --> 0:17:10.359
<v Speaker 2>so I just immediately felt like, man, this this, this

0:17:10.480 --> 0:17:15.080
<v Speaker 2>is this is special. And I knew they were going

0:17:15.160 --> 0:17:18.080
<v Speaker 2>to do a project out in east Hampton Eastampton Golf Club,

0:17:18.440 --> 0:17:20.720
<v Speaker 2>and I said, Bill I'll do anything you want me to.

0:17:20.800 --> 0:17:22.639
<v Speaker 2>I'll it could be for a week, it could be

0:17:22.640 --> 0:17:24.080
<v Speaker 2>for a month, it could be for the whole project.

0:17:24.119 --> 0:17:27.600
<v Speaker 2>I'll I'll drive a water truck, I'll rake bunkers. I'll

0:17:27.600 --> 0:17:29.520
<v Speaker 2>do whatever you want me to. And you can tell

0:17:29.560 --> 0:17:32.040
<v Speaker 2>you like you say, you're serious. So yeah, let me

0:17:32.160 --> 0:17:34.199
<v Speaker 2>when I when I come back, let me just I

0:17:34.280 --> 0:17:37.480
<v Speaker 2>was in Ithaca at the time. Let me just come

0:17:37.480 --> 0:17:39.879
<v Speaker 2>out and meet with you. If that's okay, We'll just

0:17:40.320 --> 0:17:41.040
<v Speaker 2>we'll just meet up.

0:17:41.400 --> 0:17:44.320
<v Speaker 1>Sounds it sounds similar to when he met Pete Dye.

0:17:44.920 --> 0:17:48.879
<v Speaker 2>Probably, which of course I didn't know at the time. Yeah.

0:17:48.920 --> 0:17:51.760
<v Speaker 2>So I drove out there in my Volve, my Ithaca

0:17:51.960 --> 0:17:56.879
<v Speaker 2>Volvo station wagon, right, horn, rimmed glasses, tall, lanky, Danish

0:17:56.960 --> 0:18:01.719
<v Speaker 2>guy or theory, no experience. Who is this guy? Right?

0:18:01.800 --> 0:18:03.440
<v Speaker 2>And I'm out there with the guys who've actually built

0:18:03.480 --> 0:18:05.800
<v Speaker 2>the stuff, the Dave axelent that those guys Jim Craig,

0:18:06.359 --> 0:18:09.199
<v Speaker 2>and they took one look at me, like, really, this

0:18:09.280 --> 0:18:11.160
<v Speaker 2>guy is going to work out. So I think, almost

0:18:11.200 --> 0:18:13.720
<v Speaker 2>like as a joke, it was almost like, all right,

0:18:13.800 --> 0:18:15.720
<v Speaker 2>let's see if he actually will drive a water truck.

0:18:16.359 --> 0:18:18.560
<v Speaker 2>And I did, and we had a great summer. We

0:18:18.640 --> 0:18:21.080
<v Speaker 2>had like five or six of us working together, Jeff Bradley,

0:18:21.920 --> 0:18:24.639
<v Speaker 2>with all the usual suspects, and we had a great summer.

0:18:24.880 --> 0:18:28.240
<v Speaker 2>And then I think my stroke of fortune was that

0:18:28.280 --> 0:18:31.159
<v Speaker 2>this thing in California was going to go dos Puebos

0:18:31.160 --> 0:18:35.199
<v Speaker 2>in Santa Barbara was coming online and it fit my

0:18:35.440 --> 0:18:42.000
<v Speaker 2>skills to a t reams of plans, permit conditions, grading,

0:18:43.160 --> 0:18:46.840
<v Speaker 2>erosion control, kind of a proper engineering project. And they

0:18:46.840 --> 0:18:49.520
<v Speaker 2>looked around the room, like, who can we send out there?

0:18:50.119 --> 0:18:53.240
<v Speaker 2>There's our guy. So Bill asked me would like to

0:18:53.240 --> 0:18:56.320
<v Speaker 2>go to California and be part of the dos Perblos thing?

0:18:57.080 --> 0:19:00.159
<v Speaker 2>And I went out and it didn't happen, which was

0:19:00.560 --> 0:19:04.920
<v Speaker 2>a whole nother story. But then while I was out

0:19:04.960 --> 0:19:08.800
<v Speaker 2>there for a while, Ben and some of his friends

0:19:08.800 --> 0:19:11.320
<v Speaker 2>had bought this property in Austin and they were going

0:19:11.400 --> 0:19:14.000
<v Speaker 2>to build the Austin Golf Club. And they said, well,

0:19:14.040 --> 0:19:16.159
<v Speaker 2>if those Piblos isn't gonna happen, why don't you come

0:19:16.160 --> 0:19:19.119
<v Speaker 2>to Austin and help us build Austin Golf Club.

0:19:19.800 --> 0:19:26.160
<v Speaker 1>That's that does playblis project that sounded like a spectacular

0:19:26.480 --> 0:19:27.560
<v Speaker 1>place could have been.

0:19:28.600 --> 0:19:30.359
<v Speaker 2>I just drove by it just the other day. The

0:19:30.400 --> 0:19:33.119
<v Speaker 2>PBC post are still out there marking the t's and

0:19:33.160 --> 0:19:35.199
<v Speaker 2>the turning points in the greens.

0:19:35.920 --> 0:19:39.240
<v Speaker 1>That was a chevron was was it chevron.

0:19:38.960 --> 0:19:42.600
<v Speaker 2>Or acco arco site? It was a you know, they

0:19:42.640 --> 0:19:45.280
<v Speaker 2>would come in with the tankers off coast and then

0:19:45.280 --> 0:19:47.800
<v Speaker 2>they would pipe it from the tankers up onto the

0:19:47.840 --> 0:19:51.080
<v Speaker 2>property in these big holding tanks, and then they would

0:19:51.119 --> 0:19:54.600
<v Speaker 2>do the refinery or refinement or whatever it's called, the

0:19:54.640 --> 0:19:58.359
<v Speaker 2>processing of the crude on that property and then truck

0:19:58.400 --> 0:20:00.719
<v Speaker 2>it to wherever it was needed. So it had been

0:20:00.720 --> 0:20:06.320
<v Speaker 2>decommissioned as a oil refinery side and they were going

0:20:06.400 --> 0:20:09.720
<v Speaker 2>to convert it into a public golf course forty dollar golf,

0:20:10.880 --> 0:20:15.840
<v Speaker 2>public access with pedestrian trails and questrian trails and you know,

0:20:16.400 --> 0:20:21.840
<v Speaker 2>bike trails and proper access to the beach. And my

0:20:21.960 --> 0:20:24.000
<v Speaker 2>sense was in the local community there was nothing but

0:20:24.080 --> 0:20:27.720
<v Speaker 2>support for it, but sort of in the special interests

0:20:28.400 --> 0:20:33.280
<v Speaker 2>groups they afforded tooth and nail. Water. I think water

0:20:33.359 --> 0:20:35.520
<v Speaker 2>was an issue, a big issue. Having enough water out

0:20:35.520 --> 0:20:38.359
<v Speaker 2>there and be able to justify using it for golf

0:20:38.440 --> 0:20:40.960
<v Speaker 2>was a big issue, and probably legitimately so some of

0:20:40.960 --> 0:20:46.960
<v Speaker 2>the other things were a little bit more marginal, like seals.

0:20:47.040 --> 0:20:49.440
<v Speaker 2>You know, the errant golf balls were going to impact

0:20:49.480 --> 0:20:52.760
<v Speaker 2>the mating rituals of the seals down on the beach.

0:20:53.160 --> 0:20:55.520
<v Speaker 2>Come on, I mean, you just people just trying to

0:20:55.520 --> 0:20:59.720
<v Speaker 2>block this project so it never happened, and it still

0:20:59.760 --> 0:21:00.240
<v Speaker 2>sets there.

0:21:00.400 --> 0:21:02.760
<v Speaker 1>That had to be kind of like, you know, you're young.

0:21:03.160 --> 0:21:06.840
<v Speaker 1>It's like you got this job, you're you're super excited

0:21:07.000 --> 0:21:10.520
<v Speaker 1>working with these guys, and having that happen with one

0:21:10.560 --> 0:21:13.160
<v Speaker 1>of you, like the first projects had to be tough,

0:21:13.280 --> 0:21:14.560
<v Speaker 1>like having it not happen.

0:21:15.160 --> 0:21:17.280
<v Speaker 2>It was tough, but it was so exciting just to

0:21:17.280 --> 0:21:20.480
<v Speaker 2>be there. But I do remember that, and we still

0:21:20.520 --> 0:21:21.960
<v Speaker 2>sort of we don't think we joke about it, but

0:21:22.000 --> 0:21:25.520
<v Speaker 2>we certainly still make reference to it. I remember one

0:21:25.560 --> 0:21:28.000
<v Speaker 2>particular meeting, and I don't think Bill would mind my

0:21:28.440 --> 0:21:33.400
<v Speaker 2>saying this. I remember one meeting, a Coastal Commission meeting

0:21:34.840 --> 0:21:38.320
<v Speaker 2>which we had to attend, and people go up then

0:21:38.400 --> 0:21:41.040
<v Speaker 2>make the case for either being in favor of or

0:21:41.080 --> 0:21:45.080
<v Speaker 2>against the project. And this one particular attorney goes up

0:21:45.280 --> 0:21:50.800
<v Speaker 2>and claims that the golf course architects the developers had

0:21:50.800 --> 0:21:55.440
<v Speaker 2>made no effort to incorporate the various interests of the community,

0:21:55.880 --> 0:21:58.920
<v Speaker 2>which was patently untrue. I mean they had moved the greens,

0:21:59.040 --> 0:22:02.479
<v Speaker 2>moved this and change this over here. And Bill approached

0:22:02.560 --> 0:22:05.159
<v Speaker 2>him during an intimission. He said, you know, you know

0:22:05.280 --> 0:22:08.040
<v Speaker 2>just as well as I do that we have made

0:22:08.040 --> 0:22:10.639
<v Speaker 2>all these changes, We've done all these things. And the

0:22:10.680 --> 0:22:15.320
<v Speaker 2>attorney goes, Bill, please don't take it personally. I'm just

0:22:15.560 --> 0:22:19.320
<v Speaker 2>I'm just doing my job. I'm just representing my client.

0:22:19.760 --> 0:22:21.840
<v Speaker 2>And Bill just turned around and walk down the room

0:22:21.880 --> 0:22:23.440
<v Speaker 2>like this is not a there's not a process, this

0:22:23.560 --> 0:22:26.920
<v Speaker 2>is not a conversation. This is just a waste of

0:22:26.960 --> 0:22:31.560
<v Speaker 2>everybody's time, which was a shame. So, yeah, that was

0:22:31.600 --> 0:22:33.440
<v Speaker 2>the end of Dusk webinos.

0:22:33.920 --> 0:22:38.760
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's still stakes in the ground, that's what So

0:22:38.880 --> 0:22:41.640
<v Speaker 1>Austin Golf Club, that's that's a one of the things

0:22:41.640 --> 0:22:44.560
<v Speaker 1>that is unique about that. Of course, I think from

0:22:44.800 --> 0:22:48.000
<v Speaker 1>what people have characterized me, I've played it, but is

0:22:48.040 --> 0:22:53.200
<v Speaker 1>that it's more Crenshaw than you know, Core and Crenshaw. Right, absolutely,

0:22:53.359 --> 0:22:56.040
<v Speaker 1>that's a that's really like a Ben Crenshaw golf course

0:22:56.119 --> 0:22:56.760
<v Speaker 1>by design.

0:22:56.920 --> 0:22:59.800
<v Speaker 2>I mean Bill was very again again speaks to who

0:22:59.840 --> 0:23:01.800
<v Speaker 2>he is and who they both are that Bill felt

0:23:01.840 --> 0:23:03.959
<v Speaker 2>like this should be this is Ben's home club. This

0:23:04.040 --> 0:23:06.480
<v Speaker 2>is something that he will be part of for the

0:23:06.520 --> 0:23:08.760
<v Speaker 2>rest of his life. He should be the driver on this,

0:23:09.160 --> 0:23:11.240
<v Speaker 2>and he was hilarious. It's hilarious to watch these two

0:23:11.240 --> 0:23:17.840
<v Speaker 2>guys right because it's there's always a humor component. But

0:23:17.400 --> 0:23:19.720
<v Speaker 2>I think Bill did most of the routing, you know,

0:23:19.920 --> 0:23:23.840
<v Speaker 2>laid it out with Ben's advice. But yeah, no, you're right.

0:23:23.920 --> 0:23:28.359
<v Speaker 2>All the greens, all the details, the bunkering, everything is

0:23:28.480 --> 0:23:30.040
<v Speaker 2>essentially Ben's handiwork.

0:23:30.640 --> 0:23:34.320
<v Speaker 1>Why is it a like what's different when Ben does

0:23:34.400 --> 0:23:37.800
<v Speaker 1>everything from when you know the usual process of them

0:23:37.800 --> 0:23:39.320
<v Speaker 1>building golf courses together.

0:23:39.920 --> 0:23:45.280
<v Speaker 2>That's a good question. I think Tom Kite described Austin

0:23:45.320 --> 0:23:48.760
<v Speaker 2>Golf Club as the hardest golf course from ten yards

0:23:48.760 --> 0:23:52.720
<v Speaker 2>in that there's so many little nuances in the greens,

0:23:53.040 --> 0:23:56.920
<v Speaker 2>and if you're a really good player, you can work

0:23:56.960 --> 0:24:01.119
<v Speaker 2>away around those. If you're not so good, it's it's tough.

0:24:02.200 --> 0:24:04.399
<v Speaker 2>So I think that's a different Ben would probably not

0:24:05.480 --> 0:24:09.439
<v Speaker 2>do a croquetial together, may not do greens quite like

0:24:09.520 --> 0:24:14.280
<v Speaker 2>that for a less a compli a place where you're

0:24:14.280 --> 0:24:17.480
<v Speaker 2>trying to accommodate a greater spectrum of players, it's a

0:24:17.520 --> 0:24:21.760
<v Speaker 2>good players club. I think that's probably one difference some

0:24:21.800 --> 0:24:24.080
<v Speaker 2>of the maybe some of the visuals like Ben. I

0:24:24.119 --> 0:24:28.000
<v Speaker 2>don't think Ben was particularly interested in anything looking particularly

0:24:28.040 --> 0:24:32.680
<v Speaker 2>flashy or it's all pretty subdued and golf centric and

0:24:32.760 --> 0:24:37.240
<v Speaker 2>about placement and about angles and about contours. Ben's a

0:24:37.280 --> 0:24:39.960
<v Speaker 2>big big on contours, mounds and things like that. So

0:24:41.119 --> 0:24:45.239
<v Speaker 2>I think that's probably one difference over something they might

0:24:45.280 --> 0:24:52.920
<v Speaker 2>have done together. And again, just the simple, unpretentious snow frills,

0:24:53.040 --> 0:24:54.920
<v Speaker 2>just go out and have a good time playing golf.

0:24:55.240 --> 0:24:57.760
<v Speaker 1>Would you characterize the way I've kind of always thought

0:24:57.760 --> 0:25:00.479
<v Speaker 1>about it in my head, and I usually to rate

0:25:00.560 --> 0:25:04.520
<v Speaker 1>and relate things like everybody does back to like in

0:25:04.560 --> 0:25:09.560
<v Speaker 1>a way, Bill's almost like the writer and Ben's an

0:25:09.680 --> 0:25:13.119
<v Speaker 1>editor where he comes in he looks at the projects

0:25:13.160 --> 0:25:14.840
<v Speaker 1>and it's like, oh, what do you think about this?

0:25:15.040 --> 0:25:17.080
<v Speaker 1>What do you think of you know? Like? Are you

0:25:17.119 --> 0:25:20.000
<v Speaker 1>sure this? You know? Like? And that's the way the

0:25:20.080 --> 0:25:23.920
<v Speaker 1>kind of process works, where you know, Bill will put

0:25:23.920 --> 0:25:27.960
<v Speaker 1>together the article or the book, and then Ben goes

0:25:28.000 --> 0:25:31.560
<v Speaker 1>through it and Addison gives his thoughts on different things.

0:25:32.160 --> 0:25:34.840
<v Speaker 2>I think that's true, and I think, well, I will

0:25:34.880 --> 0:25:38.280
<v Speaker 2>say this about ben uncanny ability to just step off

0:25:38.280 --> 0:25:40.919
<v Speaker 2>a plane or out of a rental count and go

0:25:41.000 --> 0:25:45.000
<v Speaker 2>out walk around and then it's such a high golf

0:25:45.040 --> 0:25:47.320
<v Speaker 2>iq and has played the game so well for so

0:25:47.440 --> 0:25:52.320
<v Speaker 2>long to say, how about if that shot presented itself

0:25:52.359 --> 0:25:54.320
<v Speaker 2>a little bit differently? How about if we raise this

0:25:54.400 --> 0:26:01.600
<v Speaker 2>upload and he's got this incredible, interesting idiosyncratic the vocabulary,

0:26:02.119 --> 0:26:04.880
<v Speaker 2>Oh that's a little aggy. What does that mean? It's

0:26:04.880 --> 0:26:08.639
<v Speaker 2>a little aggy over there, you know, how about this

0:26:08.680 --> 0:26:10.920
<v Speaker 2>little guy right over here or that hot dog or whatever.

0:26:11.160 --> 0:26:13.840
<v Speaker 2>It's just the language is just fascinating. You can write

0:26:14.080 --> 0:26:17.200
<v Speaker 2>a dictionary of just sort of terms that they use.

0:26:17.840 --> 0:26:20.160
<v Speaker 1>For like the young guys that are working their first

0:26:20.240 --> 0:26:23.280
<v Speaker 1>job with them. It's like, here's the translation of these things.

0:26:23.400 --> 0:26:26.640
<v Speaker 2>That's a little that's a little puffy right there. Yeah,

0:26:27.800 --> 0:26:30.600
<v Speaker 2>so no, but you're right, but I did discover So

0:26:30.680 --> 0:26:32.840
<v Speaker 2>my role with them really for most of them, my

0:26:32.920 --> 0:26:38.200
<v Speaker 2>time working with them was sort of organizer, project organizer.

0:26:38.240 --> 0:26:41.120
<v Speaker 2>You know, you've got to organize the all the various

0:26:41.480 --> 0:26:44.280
<v Speaker 2>project parts and give the guys what they need on

0:26:44.320 --> 0:26:47.520
<v Speaker 2>the shaping side and sort of work with the client,

0:26:47.840 --> 0:26:50.000
<v Speaker 2>you know, that sort of thing. So I would also

0:26:50.280 --> 0:26:54.080
<v Speaker 2>organize Bill and Ben's time and when do you need

0:26:54.119 --> 0:26:57.439
<v Speaker 2>Ben to come back. Well, if you just blew up

0:26:57.440 --> 0:27:00.840
<v Speaker 2>the fairway because you're putting in irrigation range, he doesn't

0:27:00.880 --> 0:27:03.000
<v Speaker 2>really what am I looking at. There's just the piles

0:27:03.040 --> 0:27:05.639
<v Speaker 2>of stuff out there. So you had to get him

0:27:05.680 --> 0:27:07.240
<v Speaker 2>at the right time. And there were sort of two

0:27:07.320 --> 0:27:11.000
<v Speaker 2>times when it was really ideal to get him. One

0:27:11.040 --> 0:27:14.600
<v Speaker 2>was once she was setting the stage. You're trying to

0:27:14.760 --> 0:27:19.960
<v Speaker 2>the concepts for the holes short for path three or

0:27:20.000 --> 0:27:22.000
<v Speaker 2>a longer hole over here, the way they all fit together,

0:27:22.040 --> 0:27:24.479
<v Speaker 2>the changes in the direction. Great time to get him

0:27:24.480 --> 0:27:27.080
<v Speaker 2>out there, get the two of them together, lay the foundation,

0:27:27.880 --> 0:27:30.040
<v Speaker 2>and then he could go away. He was still playing

0:27:30.080 --> 0:27:32.600
<v Speaker 2>at that time, go away play. And then you'd had

0:27:32.600 --> 0:27:36.200
<v Speaker 2>to get him in once you you were a certain

0:27:36.240 --> 0:27:39.160
<v Speaker 2>point of detail with the shaping where he could see it.

0:27:39.880 --> 0:27:41.920
<v Speaker 2>I can see how this looks, and I can see

0:27:42.000 --> 0:27:45.879
<v Speaker 2>yeah again a little too eggy or a little too

0:27:45.920 --> 0:27:48.560
<v Speaker 2>puffy or whatever it was. So to get him at

0:27:48.600 --> 0:27:50.720
<v Speaker 2>the right time was the key. And then they were

0:27:50.760 --> 0:27:54.639
<v Speaker 2>just incredible together. And the way you could tell that

0:27:54.720 --> 0:28:00.840
<v Speaker 2>Bill relied on and greatly valued Ben's input because from

0:28:00.880 --> 0:28:03.080
<v Speaker 2>his point of view, you know, you've got so much

0:28:03.160 --> 0:28:06.440
<v Speaker 2>going on with organizing jobs. Where are we going to

0:28:06.520 --> 0:28:10.240
<v Speaker 2>go next, Have I routed this course for this perspective client,

0:28:10.280 --> 0:28:12.119
<v Speaker 2>Did I go and look at these four other properties

0:28:13.200 --> 0:28:16.320
<v Speaker 2>that Ben could come in with fresh eyes and say, yeah,

0:28:16.359 --> 0:28:19.359
<v Speaker 2>well that's fine all that stuff, but that's maybe a

0:28:19.400 --> 0:28:22.760
<v Speaker 2>little bit too eggy on the corn of that green. Well.

0:28:22.920 --> 0:28:25.560
<v Speaker 1>I mean, I think that's like with I think anybody

0:28:25.560 --> 0:28:27.800
<v Speaker 1>can relate to that. It's like when you get so

0:28:28.040 --> 0:28:30.720
<v Speaker 1>deep in the weeds and your thing and I in

0:28:30.480 --> 0:28:33.840
<v Speaker 1>a in a golf project, a golf course that you're

0:28:33.880 --> 0:28:37.760
<v Speaker 1>talking some of these things from end to end four years,

0:28:38.400 --> 0:28:40.240
<v Speaker 1>you get and you know, I think one of the

0:28:40.280 --> 0:28:43.320
<v Speaker 1>things that's unique about Bill, Bill and Ben and Coren

0:28:43.400 --> 0:28:47.360
<v Speaker 1>Crenshaw is like they don't take a ton of jobs, right,

0:28:47.760 --> 0:28:50.440
<v Speaker 1>so you know the jobs that they do or they

0:28:50.480 --> 0:28:53.640
<v Speaker 1>are deeply, deeply invested in and very in the weeds.

0:28:53.680 --> 0:28:57.200
<v Speaker 1>So when you get into those weeds, you know, you

0:28:57.280 --> 0:28:59.960
<v Speaker 1>lose sight of little things and you get almost too

0:29:00.080 --> 0:29:03.840
<v Speaker 1>close to Really it's that whole saying you're so you

0:29:04.440 --> 0:29:07.960
<v Speaker 1>can't see the forest through the trees, right, And that's

0:29:08.000 --> 0:29:10.760
<v Speaker 1>where the it's nice to have some of that just

0:29:10.800 --> 0:29:14.360
<v Speaker 1>comes in and has you know, has also like at

0:29:14.360 --> 0:29:17.800
<v Speaker 1>the time you're describing is going around the country playing

0:29:17.840 --> 0:29:21.280
<v Speaker 1>golf at different places and seeing new stuff all the time.

0:29:21.800 --> 0:29:24.000
<v Speaker 1>You know, granted the tours playing the same place as

0:29:24.320 --> 0:29:26.640
<v Speaker 1>for the most part, but I think he was going

0:29:26.640 --> 0:29:29.200
<v Speaker 1>and seeing new courses as I've read a lot about,

0:29:29.280 --> 0:29:32.880
<v Speaker 1>like you know, famously going up to play Crystal Downs

0:29:32.920 --> 0:29:35.520
<v Speaker 1>before he won the won the Detroit event or the

0:29:35.520 --> 0:29:41.200
<v Speaker 1>Warwick Kills event. But but yeah, that's a fascinating thing

0:29:41.240 --> 0:29:44.080
<v Speaker 1>about like scheduling their time. I have to ask, you know,

0:29:44.480 --> 0:29:47.400
<v Speaker 1>you know, with that, like, how is it how is

0:29:47.440 --> 0:29:51.560
<v Speaker 1>it scheduling all this stuff in planning with somebody that

0:29:51.640 --> 0:29:52.479
<v Speaker 1>doesn't have email.

0:29:52.880 --> 0:29:56.080
<v Speaker 2>That's a good point and somehow it works. And you're

0:29:56.160 --> 0:30:00.360
<v Speaker 2>right to this day, Ben doesn't have email. Builders email

0:30:00.400 --> 0:30:03.120
<v Speaker 2>they you ask the wives, they might have a slightly

0:30:03.120 --> 0:30:05.600
<v Speaker 2>more nuanced view on this. How do they actually communicate

0:30:05.640 --> 0:30:09.240
<v Speaker 2>without email? Because there is some some that goes channel

0:30:09.280 --> 0:30:11.040
<v Speaker 2>through there and they have Scotty in the office, Scotty

0:30:11.040 --> 0:30:17.160
<v Speaker 2>Sayers in the office, But yeah, they I think. I mean,

0:30:17.240 --> 0:30:21.880
<v Speaker 2>it's I admire that I admire the keeping things simple.

0:30:22.280 --> 0:30:24.200
<v Speaker 2>I mean, this is you were talking about stories. I mean,

0:30:24.440 --> 0:30:26.200
<v Speaker 2>these are just coming to my mind as we speak

0:30:26.200 --> 0:30:28.000
<v Speaker 2>about it. But I think there was one interview they

0:30:28.000 --> 0:30:33.160
<v Speaker 2>did during the there was the Pinehost renovation where they're

0:30:33.160 --> 0:30:37.600
<v Speaker 2>being interviewed about the project and about how that's all going.

0:30:37.640 --> 0:30:41.360
<v Speaker 2>And the interviewer goes, yeah, there's something on your website

0:30:41.400 --> 0:30:44.120
<v Speaker 2>about whatever it was, and they looked at each other,

0:30:44.160 --> 0:30:46.640
<v Speaker 2>and you can tell us just one hundred percent genuine

0:30:46.680 --> 0:30:48.680
<v Speaker 2>they look at it like we have a website. They

0:30:48.720 --> 0:30:51.080
<v Speaker 2>had no idea they had a website, neither one of them.

0:30:51.480 --> 0:30:55.520
<v Speaker 2>And I absolutely can see that. So now I think

0:30:55.560 --> 0:30:59.200
<v Speaker 2>it's a point of great pride, right. It's but that again,

0:30:59.240 --> 0:31:02.040
<v Speaker 2>it just speaks that now he's let's not clutter of

0:31:02.080 --> 0:31:05.960
<v Speaker 2>things up unnecessarily. Let's just keep it simple. Let's pick

0:31:06.040 --> 0:31:08.240
<v Speaker 2>up the phone and call me, Let's talk to each other.

0:31:09.200 --> 0:31:10.720
<v Speaker 2>It's it's that's who they are.

0:31:11.320 --> 0:31:14.720
<v Speaker 1>It's uh, yeah, I love when you get you get

0:31:14.760 --> 0:31:18.840
<v Speaker 1>text messages from Bill and he uses emojis, but he

0:31:18.880 --> 0:31:21.719
<v Speaker 1>doesn't use the you know, have the email. It's like

0:31:22.560 --> 0:31:25.520
<v Speaker 1>he's using em my dad has no clue what an

0:31:25.560 --> 0:31:28.480
<v Speaker 1>emoji is. But he could use the email. But that

0:31:28.680 --> 0:31:31.560
<v Speaker 1>Bill does have an email, like you know, I you know,

0:31:31.640 --> 0:31:33.560
<v Speaker 1>if I had my brothers, i'd probably get rid of

0:31:33.560 --> 0:31:38.040
<v Speaker 1>my my email. What you know, we talked about a

0:31:38.040 --> 0:31:41.280
<v Speaker 1>few projects. You have a particular core and Crunchhaw. Of

0:31:41.320 --> 0:31:44.800
<v Speaker 1>course that's been finished. We're going to talk about Brambles

0:31:44.840 --> 0:31:50.200
<v Speaker 1>and in a second, but that's done. That stands out

0:31:50.200 --> 0:31:54.080
<v Speaker 1>in your mind as like, you know, that one's my

0:31:54.400 --> 0:31:56.280
<v Speaker 1>the place I would spend the most time at.

0:31:57.080 --> 0:31:59.840
<v Speaker 2>You know, Austin Golf Dolls was so much Ben's project.

0:32:00.000 --> 0:32:02.440
<v Speaker 2>We were just trying to figure out what Ben I wanted.

0:32:04.440 --> 0:32:08.240
<v Speaker 2>After that, I was very lucky to go to Atlantic

0:32:08.240 --> 0:32:12.200
<v Speaker 2>City and work on a place called Hidden Creek, and

0:32:12.320 --> 0:32:16.760
<v Speaker 2>Hidden Creek was it was just such a wonderful experience.

0:32:17.960 --> 0:32:21.160
<v Speaker 2>Roger and Duena Hansen were the owners and the developers.

0:32:21.160 --> 0:32:23.600
<v Speaker 2>They had other golf Bluehound Pines, they had a couple

0:32:23.600 --> 0:32:28.200
<v Speaker 2>of golf courses that they had developed previously. But they

0:32:28.200 --> 0:32:29.800
<v Speaker 2>had known Bill and Ben for years and this was

0:32:29.840 --> 0:32:31.600
<v Speaker 2>their chance to work with them, and they were just

0:32:31.640 --> 0:32:36.320
<v Speaker 2>so excited about it. And I remember Bill saying and

0:32:36.440 --> 0:32:39.720
<v Speaker 2>again it's just just how what a what a what

0:32:39.800 --> 0:32:43.520
<v Speaker 2>a wonderful thought. And for him to have the the

0:32:43.560 --> 0:32:45.800
<v Speaker 2>willingness to say this. He said to me, I want

0:32:45.840 --> 0:32:49.520
<v Speaker 2>you to work on this project in a manner where

0:32:49.560 --> 0:32:51.440
<v Speaker 2>you feel like you could take someone back here someday

0:32:51.440 --> 0:32:53.360
<v Speaker 2>and say this is what I believe in, this is

0:32:53.680 --> 0:32:56.000
<v Speaker 2>this is the kind of golf that I like to

0:32:56.040 --> 0:32:58.320
<v Speaker 2>play and would like to see and be part of.

0:32:59.400 --> 0:33:02.960
<v Speaker 2>Use that mind set as you participate in this project.

0:33:03.520 --> 0:33:05.560
<v Speaker 2>I mean you talk about a motivator for a thirty

0:33:05.920 --> 0:33:08.120
<v Speaker 2>two year old, you know, really you want me to

0:33:08.160 --> 0:33:11.520
<v Speaker 2>go here and just basically feel like this is I'm

0:33:11.560 --> 0:33:16.440
<v Speaker 2>part of the design process. So that one, especially right

0:33:16.480 --> 0:33:18.440
<v Speaker 2>down to the concept. You know, we sort of came

0:33:18.520 --> 0:33:21.800
<v Speaker 2>up with the sort of heathland style. The property suited

0:33:21.840 --> 0:33:24.400
<v Speaker 2>that perfectly. It was going to be a club that

0:33:24.480 --> 0:33:26.600
<v Speaker 2>you know, members would play over and over and over again,

0:33:26.680 --> 0:33:30.280
<v Speaker 2>so again you could come to learn to play the course.

0:33:30.280 --> 0:33:31.680
<v Speaker 2>It could have a little bit of quirk to it,

0:33:31.800 --> 0:33:34.800
<v Speaker 2>and so that one, I would say Hidden Creek was

0:33:34.800 --> 0:33:38.760
<v Speaker 2>a special two years of being down there and working

0:33:38.920 --> 0:33:42.120
<v Speaker 2>with an owner who trusted the process. It was different.

0:33:42.240 --> 0:33:45.520
<v Speaker 2>It was not necessarily what you sort of normally would

0:33:45.520 --> 0:33:48.560
<v Speaker 2>see on the Jersey Shore. There was some you know,

0:33:48.600 --> 0:33:51.400
<v Speaker 2>some Willie Park influences and things like that locally, but

0:33:52.120 --> 0:33:55.120
<v Speaker 2>for that era, it was it was very different. Bill

0:33:55.160 --> 0:33:57.400
<v Speaker 2>and Ben embraced it and all the guys. It was.

0:33:57.440 --> 0:33:58.880
<v Speaker 2>It was a very special time.

0:34:01.640 --> 0:34:05.320
<v Speaker 1>I am back from Scotland, so it was a great trip.

0:34:05.520 --> 0:34:09.319
<v Speaker 1>Just about two weeks over there, and thank you, big

0:34:09.360 --> 0:34:12.080
<v Speaker 1>thank you to Zero Restriction for getting us over there.

0:34:12.600 --> 0:34:17.279
<v Speaker 1>They were our sponsor for the two weeks and we'll

0:34:17.320 --> 0:34:19.799
<v Speaker 1>have a ton of content that's coming out in the

0:34:19.800 --> 0:34:24.200
<v Speaker 1>next couple weeks center around the trip. So they have

0:34:24.239 --> 0:34:27.160
<v Speaker 1>a promo code going on right now if you are

0:34:27.400 --> 0:34:33.080
<v Speaker 1>interested in getting some good outerwear SGS. That's SGS Summer

0:34:33.239 --> 0:34:36.839
<v Speaker 1>twenty five. That's the promo code at zero restriction dot com.

0:34:36.960 --> 0:34:40.280
<v Speaker 1>Big thank you to them for sponsoring this Scotland trip.

0:34:40.640 --> 0:34:43.920
<v Speaker 1>We have some writing up on the website. We've posted

0:34:43.960 --> 0:34:48.440
<v Speaker 1>some social videos also. I'm going to be writing kind

0:34:48.480 --> 0:34:51.399
<v Speaker 1>of like a journal from the trip that I have.

0:34:51.480 --> 0:34:54.080
<v Speaker 1>I've got notes written down. I'm just kind of formulating it.

0:34:54.480 --> 0:34:57.360
<v Speaker 1>I think we're going to run those in the Friday newsletter.

0:34:57.600 --> 0:35:01.719
<v Speaker 1>So if you're interested in just kind of stories and

0:35:02.200 --> 0:35:05.080
<v Speaker 1>thoughts on courses along the way, sign up for the

0:35:05.120 --> 0:35:09.120
<v Speaker 1>Fridagg newsletter at the Fridagg dot com. It'll be right

0:35:09.160 --> 0:35:11.759
<v Speaker 1>there to pop up. You know, there's a and sign

0:35:11.880 --> 0:35:14.000
<v Speaker 1>up for that and you'll get it get my thoughts

0:35:14.120 --> 0:35:16.480
<v Speaker 1>kind of through the newsletter and then they'll be eventually

0:35:16.520 --> 0:35:20.600
<v Speaker 1>posted to the website as well. I think you hit

0:35:20.680 --> 0:35:25.720
<v Speaker 1>on something with the description of, you know, a golf course,

0:35:25.800 --> 0:35:29.399
<v Speaker 1>like suiting the design to the concept of the course,

0:35:29.440 --> 0:35:31.839
<v Speaker 1>and it sounds simple, but it doesn't always work right,

0:35:32.360 --> 0:35:35.640
<v Speaker 1>you know where Okay, you know, we could build quirk

0:35:35.680 --> 0:35:39.839
<v Speaker 1>into this because it's an everyday golf course versus you know,

0:35:39.920 --> 0:35:43.600
<v Speaker 1>building a resort course, which is something that somebody might

0:35:43.640 --> 0:35:46.600
<v Speaker 1>go to once in their life, you know, And you

0:35:46.600 --> 0:35:49.440
<v Speaker 1>know is that something I guess, like you know, do

0:35:49.520 --> 0:35:54.240
<v Speaker 1>you sometimes see golf courses that are miscast and maybe

0:35:54.440 --> 0:35:56.600
<v Speaker 1>would work better if they were in a different setting.

0:35:57.440 --> 0:36:01.080
<v Speaker 1>Just speaking in generalities, you and I we've.

0:36:01.040 --> 0:36:05.839
<v Speaker 2>Talked about this privately, and I want to necessarily get

0:36:05.840 --> 0:36:08.839
<v Speaker 2>too much into specifics, but yeah, for sure, I mean absolutely,

0:36:09.080 --> 0:36:11.200
<v Speaker 2>And I think that's if you want to go down

0:36:11.280 --> 0:36:12.959
<v Speaker 2>and look at the body of work that Core crunch

0:36:12.960 --> 0:36:14.920
<v Speaker 2>Shaw has done. And I only mentioned them because I

0:36:14.960 --> 0:36:17.560
<v Speaker 2>know that their work the best. I think that's one

0:36:17.600 --> 0:36:19.720
<v Speaker 2>of the things they really do well. They really think

0:36:19.800 --> 0:36:23.240
<v Speaker 2>through what is the purpose of this golf course? Capelua,

0:36:23.280 --> 0:36:27.240
<v Speaker 2>I mean Cappalua could not be more different from Austin

0:36:27.280 --> 0:36:29.799
<v Speaker 2>Golf Club, and Austin Golf Club could not be more

0:36:29.880 --> 0:36:34.360
<v Speaker 2>different from hidden Greek sand hills. I mean, take a pick,

0:36:34.680 --> 0:36:37.960
<v Speaker 2>but that very deliberate thinking through what is the purpose

0:36:38.000 --> 0:36:40.400
<v Speaker 2>of this course? I think they do that as well

0:36:40.440 --> 0:36:43.920
<v Speaker 2>as anyone I've ever seen. Again, now you're back to

0:36:44.200 --> 0:36:46.840
<v Speaker 2>setting aside their own agenda, setting asiund their own interests,

0:36:47.280 --> 0:36:49.760
<v Speaker 2>thinking about the client, thinking about what's best for the client,

0:36:51.080 --> 0:36:52.880
<v Speaker 2>really something they do exceptionally well.

0:36:53.360 --> 0:36:55.920
<v Speaker 1>So pigging backing off that, I think, like, you know,

0:36:56.000 --> 0:36:59.279
<v Speaker 1>the majority of people that will encounter a core crunch

0:36:59.280 --> 0:37:03.040
<v Speaker 1>shot course, play a resort course, you know that's just

0:37:03.719 --> 0:37:08.080
<v Speaker 1>the name's or a public course like Warren and Notre Dame.

0:37:08.800 --> 0:37:12.280
<v Speaker 1>How are those courses different than say a hidden creeker

0:37:12.360 --> 0:37:15.800
<v Speaker 1>the private ones? Where are the different where the design

0:37:15.880 --> 0:37:18.880
<v Speaker 1>differences are? East Hampton would be another, you know, private club.

0:37:19.160 --> 0:37:23.040
<v Speaker 1>You know, how where where are things maybe ramped up,

0:37:23.280 --> 0:37:28.480
<v Speaker 1>toned down at resorts versus at the private club experience?

0:37:28.520 --> 0:37:31.560
<v Speaker 1>How do how do they kind of morph between the two?

0:37:32.000 --> 0:37:35.760
<v Speaker 2>I think especially in the greens again I mentioned before

0:37:35.800 --> 0:37:39.080
<v Speaker 2>with an Austin Golf Club. I mean those greens for

0:37:39.160 --> 0:37:43.160
<v Speaker 2>your average resort guest would just be very, very challenging.

0:37:44.239 --> 0:37:46.200
<v Speaker 2>So yeah, just a little more room to play, a

0:37:46.200 --> 0:37:49.240
<v Speaker 2>little more room to get in the hole as opposed

0:37:49.280 --> 0:37:52.600
<v Speaker 2>to have to hit exactly a precise shot. Do I think?

0:37:52.600 --> 0:37:54.799
<v Speaker 2>I think that's the the width aspects. You know, they

0:37:54.880 --> 0:37:57.279
<v Speaker 2>like to have wide fairways and different angles and use

0:37:57.320 --> 0:38:00.120
<v Speaker 2>the property. I think that's pretty universally. You would do that,

0:38:00.400 --> 0:38:02.880
<v Speaker 2>whether it's a resort course or for a private club.

0:38:04.040 --> 0:38:07.160
<v Speaker 2>So the bunkering, you might say, well, the bunkering is

0:38:07.200 --> 0:38:12.520
<v Speaker 2>a little more forgiving or less exacting on a resort course,

0:38:12.560 --> 0:38:16.160
<v Speaker 2>but overall I would say not really. I mean I

0:38:16.160 --> 0:38:20.040
<v Speaker 2>wouldn't say that. Say that Austin Golf or sand Hills

0:38:20.120 --> 0:38:21.480
<v Speaker 2>or some of the courses that you would say are

0:38:21.480 --> 0:38:25.800
<v Speaker 2>some of the more exacting of their designs. You wouldn't

0:38:25.800 --> 0:38:29.400
<v Speaker 2>say the bunkering is particularly punishing. It certainly challenged you

0:38:29.440 --> 0:38:31.080
<v Speaker 2>in terms of where you want to go and how

0:38:31.120 --> 0:38:32.800
<v Speaker 2>you want to set up your angles and get around

0:38:32.800 --> 0:38:33.399
<v Speaker 2>the golf course.

0:38:34.400 --> 0:38:39.319
<v Speaker 1>They're all avoidable, yeah exactly, but you know, sometimes you

0:38:39.360 --> 0:38:43.200
<v Speaker 1>find yourself in them. Sometimes they become unavoidable because of

0:38:43.239 --> 0:38:46.760
<v Speaker 1>your own self, and that's when they exact the penalty,

0:38:46.880 --> 0:38:49.960
<v Speaker 1>you know, thinking about like stream Thung right, the you know,

0:38:50.040 --> 0:38:52.000
<v Speaker 1>that's the you know thing you start to think about

0:38:52.120 --> 0:38:55.160
<v Speaker 1>is like eighteen at sand Hills. It's like you get

0:38:55.280 --> 0:38:57.719
<v Speaker 1>one of those bunkers that can just derail your day

0:38:58.480 --> 0:39:01.120
<v Speaker 1>and then you know, but the same can be said

0:39:01.160 --> 0:39:04.399
<v Speaker 1>about the resort of the fifteenth at stream song Red.

0:39:04.560 --> 0:39:07.080
<v Speaker 1>You know, like that left bunker there just death.

0:39:07.560 --> 0:39:09.279
<v Speaker 2>But then you always wondered, why did I go over them?

0:39:09.320 --> 0:39:10.880
<v Speaker 2>On you, I shouldn't be over there? What am I

0:39:10.920 --> 0:39:11.640
<v Speaker 2>doing over there?

0:39:11.760 --> 0:39:13.960
<v Speaker 1>Well, you know, you got you gotta get it closer

0:39:14.000 --> 0:39:17.200
<v Speaker 1>there to make those holes a little bit shorter, you know.

0:39:18.480 --> 0:39:21.280
<v Speaker 1>I think that's one of the most interesting things about

0:39:21.640 --> 0:39:24.960
<v Speaker 1>you know, one of the golf analytics and people have

0:39:25.320 --> 0:39:29.560
<v Speaker 1>created these strategies and oh, architecture doesn't matter because of

0:39:29.600 --> 0:39:33.080
<v Speaker 1>these strategies at the end of the day. The architecture,

0:39:33.200 --> 0:39:35.360
<v Speaker 1>like I am a big believer in Like, if you

0:39:35.400 --> 0:39:38.480
<v Speaker 1>play enough golf, you figure these things out, like and

0:39:38.480 --> 0:39:41.280
<v Speaker 1>whether or not, you know, the better players are always

0:39:41.280 --> 0:39:44.160
<v Speaker 1>going to be more conservative, like and you figure these

0:39:44.160 --> 0:39:46.640
<v Speaker 1>things out, and you know these there are a lot

0:39:46.680 --> 0:39:49.480
<v Speaker 1>of systems and people out there that can help you

0:39:49.560 --> 0:39:52.719
<v Speaker 1>play figure things out. Faster. But at the end of

0:39:52.719 --> 0:39:58.040
<v Speaker 1>the day, the architecture, really great architecture entices people to

0:39:58.080 --> 0:40:01.440
<v Speaker 1>do things they don't want to do, you know, and

0:40:01.600 --> 0:40:06.120
<v Speaker 1>that's sometimes what happens with those holes, Like that's why

0:40:06.160 --> 0:40:08.880
<v Speaker 1>you find yourself in some bunkers that you shouldn't be in,

0:40:09.200 --> 0:40:09.440
<v Speaker 1>you know.

0:40:09.800 --> 0:40:11.880
<v Speaker 2>I think that's a great way to sort of catch

0:40:11.920 --> 0:40:14.560
<v Speaker 2>all if you can get people to do things they

0:40:14.560 --> 0:40:21.080
<v Speaker 2>shouldn't be doing. There's interest, there's challenge, there's attack and defense.

0:40:21.120 --> 0:40:22.960
<v Speaker 2>There's all sorts of stuff building to that that I

0:40:23.000 --> 0:40:26.359
<v Speaker 2>think is good golf as opposed it's being other just

0:40:26.360 --> 0:40:29.680
<v Speaker 2>mindlessly hitting or it's so difficult that it's so obvious

0:40:29.680 --> 0:40:30.680
<v Speaker 2>what you're trying to not do.

0:40:30.960 --> 0:40:34.440
<v Speaker 1>It's stimulating, right like that I think about that all

0:40:34.440 --> 0:40:37.600
<v Speaker 1>the time. Is like I really love when I get

0:40:37.600 --> 0:40:40.200
<v Speaker 1>into a situation, you know, you find it on par

0:40:40.360 --> 0:40:43.680
<v Speaker 1>fives a lot where I don't want to go for

0:40:43.760 --> 0:40:47.439
<v Speaker 1>the green, but I definitely don't want to lay up,

0:40:47.800 --> 0:40:51.359
<v Speaker 1>and I'm in this situation where neither of the options

0:40:52.040 --> 0:40:57.000
<v Speaker 1>to me are very you know, appetizing, and I usually

0:40:57.120 --> 0:40:59.720
<v Speaker 1>end up going for it, you know, at that point,

0:41:00.080 --> 0:41:03.719
<v Speaker 1>And I think when when one becomes clear, like you

0:41:03.760 --> 0:41:06.799
<v Speaker 1>know that's the people always say, you know, I love

0:41:06.880 --> 0:41:09.960
<v Speaker 1>short part fours. I love short part fives. Like really,

0:41:10.000 --> 0:41:13.400
<v Speaker 1>what you love is you love the decision, right, And

0:41:13.440 --> 0:41:15.440
<v Speaker 1>it doesn't have to be a short part four that

0:41:15.520 --> 0:41:18.360
<v Speaker 1>creates that. A long part three can create that, you know,

0:41:18.719 --> 0:41:22.520
<v Speaker 1>but it's just that the expectations change, right, I don't know.

0:41:22.600 --> 0:41:24.600
<v Speaker 1>It's a it's a fascinating thing with golf.

0:41:25.000 --> 0:41:27.279
<v Speaker 2>Well, can I ask you about PA? I mean here

0:41:27.719 --> 0:41:29.520
<v Speaker 2>we maybe we get to it later, but.

0:41:29.800 --> 0:41:30.960
<v Speaker 1>You're gonna ask me a question.

0:41:31.080 --> 0:41:36.239
<v Speaker 2>I think that is such a and we there's a

0:41:36.280 --> 0:41:37.759
<v Speaker 2>group of us who are toying with the idea that

0:41:37.840 --> 0:41:41.880
<v Speaker 2>pause wherely just it just gets gets in the way.

0:41:43.840 --> 0:41:45.120
<v Speaker 2>What if we play with no PA.

0:41:46.600 --> 0:41:49.480
<v Speaker 1>So there's a study that was done years ago. I

0:41:49.520 --> 0:41:51.560
<v Speaker 1>think I did a podcast with the guys that did

0:41:51.560 --> 0:41:55.600
<v Speaker 1>the study like three years ago, and they found on

0:41:55.680 --> 0:41:59.879
<v Speaker 1>the PGA tour, so they used Pebble Beach was one

0:41:59.880 --> 0:42:03.879
<v Speaker 1>of them, and I want to say Oakmont was one

0:42:04.360 --> 0:42:09.920
<v Speaker 1>where they had they looked at scoring averages of I

0:42:10.000 --> 0:42:13.600
<v Speaker 1>think nine at Oakmont went from a five to four, right,

0:42:14.600 --> 0:42:16.719
<v Speaker 1>and then two at Pebble Beach went from a five

0:42:16.800 --> 0:42:19.279
<v Speaker 1>to four. So they took those and they looked at

0:42:19.280 --> 0:42:21.920
<v Speaker 1>the US Opens there when they were each fives and fours,

0:42:22.800 --> 0:42:25.560
<v Speaker 1>and they you know, they did the study. They normalized

0:42:25.600 --> 0:42:28.360
<v Speaker 1>the data so that it matched. And what they found

0:42:28.600 --> 0:42:32.760
<v Speaker 1>was when those holes were played as par fours, players

0:42:32.840 --> 0:42:36.319
<v Speaker 1>played a quarter of a shot better on the par

0:42:36.520 --> 0:42:39.360
<v Speaker 1>four than the par five because of loss of version.

0:42:40.760 --> 0:42:44.480
<v Speaker 1>So the fear of losing a stroke to bogey created

0:42:44.480 --> 0:42:48.560
<v Speaker 1>a player. It made the players play more aggressively and

0:42:48.600 --> 0:42:51.520
<v Speaker 1>then they played better. So you know, when it was

0:42:51.560 --> 0:42:55.920
<v Speaker 1>a par five, players cared less about gaining the shot

0:42:56.360 --> 0:42:59.200
<v Speaker 1>than when it was a par four about losing the shot.

0:43:00.440 --> 0:43:02.560
<v Speaker 1>Is really like I I, you know, I think about

0:43:02.600 --> 0:43:05.520
<v Speaker 1>this stuff all the time with like professional golf, right,

0:43:05.960 --> 0:43:09.000
<v Speaker 1>like par in a way holds back the world's best players.

0:43:09.520 --> 0:43:12.640
<v Speaker 1>Like if you if the tour, if the tour was

0:43:12.760 --> 0:43:19.920
<v Speaker 1>more concerned with the total score, no, the total score

0:43:20.760 --> 0:43:24.120
<v Speaker 1>rather than the under par score. So you know, you

0:43:24.160 --> 0:43:26.319
<v Speaker 1>could change the par whatever, Like you know, the tour

0:43:26.520 --> 0:43:31.640
<v Speaker 1>likes win twenty four underwins because it's exciting, okay, but

0:43:31.760 --> 0:43:34.719
<v Speaker 1>if you change that par from say seventy two to

0:43:34.840 --> 0:43:39.520
<v Speaker 1>sixty eight, the total score would likely be like so

0:43:39.640 --> 0:43:44.240
<v Speaker 1>the what seventy times was to seventy. Let's just say,

0:43:44.400 --> 0:43:47.080
<v Speaker 1>let's just say two seventy wins a tournament. It's a

0:43:47.080 --> 0:43:49.440
<v Speaker 1>par seventy two, it's eight under. If you change the

0:43:49.480 --> 0:43:54.640
<v Speaker 1>par to to seventy and it was two seventy, I

0:43:54.680 --> 0:43:58.160
<v Speaker 1>bet to sixty eight wins exactly. So like the scores

0:43:58.200 --> 0:44:02.759
<v Speaker 1>would go down, players would shoot lower scores with lower.

0:44:02.520 --> 0:44:06.000
<v Speaker 2>Par And then you have to decide, as a community

0:44:06.360 --> 0:44:11.840
<v Speaker 2>of golfers, do we want to have lower UNDERPA or

0:44:11.960 --> 0:44:13.520
<v Speaker 2>higher school Because you could also go the other way

0:44:13.560 --> 0:44:15.680
<v Speaker 2>and say we'll call all the holes pot fives and

0:44:15.719 --> 0:44:18.319
<v Speaker 2>everybody shoots seventy five because they're so happy that they

0:44:18.320 --> 0:44:20.200
<v Speaker 2>had no pressure. Yeah, you know what I mean.

0:44:20.320 --> 0:44:22.600
<v Speaker 1>Well, this is the thing in a way, like what

0:44:22.640 --> 0:44:25.960
<v Speaker 1>pars turned into is over under pars more important than

0:44:26.000 --> 0:44:30.279
<v Speaker 1>the actual score, right right, Like people feel better when

0:44:30.280 --> 0:44:33.000
<v Speaker 1>they shoot seventy eight on a par seventy two than

0:44:33.040 --> 0:44:35.560
<v Speaker 1>when they shoot seventy eight on a par seventy, which

0:44:35.600 --> 0:44:38.279
<v Speaker 1>is silly. It's still the same score, you know. And

0:44:39.520 --> 0:44:41.959
<v Speaker 1>I also think about this all the time, right, like,

0:44:41.960 --> 0:44:45.759
<v Speaker 1>like why doesn't par change with the conditions you play in?

0:44:45.920 --> 0:44:48.560
<v Speaker 1>Like if you're playing in a thirty five miles or

0:44:48.560 --> 0:44:51.400
<v Speaker 1>a wind at a place that hasn't rained for three

0:44:51.440 --> 0:44:54.960
<v Speaker 1>weeks that's like firm and has tough pins, and I'm

0:44:55.000 --> 0:45:00.680
<v Speaker 1>playing and it's seventy five sunny, no wind, and because

0:45:00.719 --> 0:45:04.000
<v Speaker 1>it rained the night before, that's not the same score,

0:45:04.280 --> 0:45:08.160
<v Speaker 1>right right? Partire changed like every day.

0:45:08.000 --> 0:45:11.040
<v Speaker 2>Almost You know what we're getting into here, and we

0:45:11.120 --> 0:45:14.600
<v Speaker 2>may need you know, three podcasts, is you know what

0:45:14.680 --> 0:45:17.959
<v Speaker 2>drives the game? Why? Why do we follow certain things?

0:45:17.960 --> 0:45:20.120
<v Speaker 2>Why do we insist on certain things? Why do we

0:45:20.719 --> 0:45:22.960
<v Speaker 2>And this goes through the game with design of golf

0:45:23.000 --> 0:45:26.560
<v Speaker 2>courses or the equipment, the way things are maintained, what

0:45:26.800 --> 0:45:30.480
<v Speaker 2>things cost to maintain because of certain expectations. I mean,

0:45:30.600 --> 0:45:33.360
<v Speaker 2>you really go down a rabbit hole that starts a challenge.

0:45:34.280 --> 0:45:37.640
<v Speaker 2>If we're talking about pond, what does it mean? Where

0:45:37.640 --> 0:45:39.840
<v Speaker 2>do we stop if we really don't want to start

0:45:39.840 --> 0:45:41.719
<v Speaker 2>thinking about what? What is the game? Where did the

0:45:41.719 --> 0:45:44.960
<v Speaker 2>game come from? And I'm not trying to stay in

0:45:45.000 --> 0:45:47.120
<v Speaker 2>this direction for our conversation, but it's just something that

0:45:47.120 --> 0:45:47.799
<v Speaker 2>fascinates me.

0:45:48.000 --> 0:45:51.440
<v Speaker 1>Well, I think the game means something differently to every golfer,

0:45:51.640 --> 0:45:54.239
<v Speaker 1>and I think that's one of the most beautiful things

0:45:54.280 --> 0:45:57.800
<v Speaker 1>about golf, is like, you know, I'm super interested in

0:45:57.800 --> 0:46:02.359
<v Speaker 1>into architecture, right, But I understand and I think this

0:46:02.400 --> 0:46:05.200
<v Speaker 1>is where some people struggle. It's like I understand that,

0:46:05.360 --> 0:46:09.960
<v Speaker 1>like some people are like super into equipment or some

0:46:10.120 --> 0:46:11.680
<v Speaker 1>I was at a face that, you know when I

0:46:11.680 --> 0:46:13.879
<v Speaker 1>played a lot of amateur golf, like I was there's

0:46:13.920 --> 0:46:17.160
<v Speaker 1>a phase in my life where I was really really

0:46:17.200 --> 0:46:21.960
<v Speaker 1>into improvement and like getting better shooting lower scores like

0:46:22.239 --> 0:46:25.640
<v Speaker 1>that is a you know, there is a a portion,

0:46:25.880 --> 0:46:28.319
<v Speaker 1>a large I think the largest subsection of the game

0:46:28.440 --> 0:46:32.440
<v Speaker 1>is obsessed with shooting lower scores. The idea of a conquest,

0:46:32.880 --> 0:46:36.399
<v Speaker 1>and that's where par is so valuable is it's the

0:46:36.440 --> 0:46:40.480
<v Speaker 1>idea of conquest. And that's where the handicap system is addictive,

0:46:40.840 --> 0:46:43.520
<v Speaker 1>Like I want to get down to zero. I want

0:46:43.560 --> 0:46:47.200
<v Speaker 1>to get you know, it's that I think it's almost

0:46:47.239 --> 0:46:51.000
<v Speaker 1>like a gamification of the sport. I mean, you think

0:46:51.000 --> 0:46:53.080
<v Speaker 1>about all the courses that were built and how much

0:46:53.440 --> 0:46:55.240
<v Speaker 1>you know, like all of a sudden, then part, what

0:46:55.239 --> 0:46:58.640
<v Speaker 1>what does par matter if you're playing matches, If you're

0:46:58.680 --> 0:47:01.600
<v Speaker 1>going to your club and the dominant tournament form is

0:47:01.640 --> 0:47:05.359
<v Speaker 1>always matches and season long, like you know, you think

0:47:05.360 --> 0:47:07.480
<v Speaker 1>about these clubs like you go to a club on

0:47:07.520 --> 0:47:10.040
<v Speaker 1>a Saturday morning, it's like, hey, you in the big

0:47:10.080 --> 0:47:12.759
<v Speaker 1>game for this it's all stroke play. It's all that week.

0:47:13.320 --> 0:47:15.520
<v Speaker 1>You know what if your big game every week was

0:47:15.560 --> 0:47:18.160
<v Speaker 1>like like the NFL, where you you square it off

0:47:18.200 --> 0:47:21.040
<v Speaker 1>against another guy at the club and it was a match.

0:47:22.080 --> 0:47:24.920
<v Speaker 2>Pine Valley, the Granddaddy of the mole here in the States,

0:47:26.120 --> 0:47:29.160
<v Speaker 2>if that course had been built as a stroke play

0:47:29.200 --> 0:47:33.360
<v Speaker 2>course the way it was originally and you had opening day,

0:47:33.560 --> 0:47:35.879
<v Speaker 2>how the people would say this is insane, like how

0:47:35.880 --> 0:47:38.439
<v Speaker 2>do I finish this golf course? But as a match

0:47:38.440 --> 0:47:40.440
<v Speaker 2>play as a place to just play against someone else

0:47:40.480 --> 0:47:43.240
<v Speaker 2>where you just pick up after a while, fantastic fun.

0:47:44.320 --> 0:47:45.680
<v Speaker 2>So it's clearly changed.

0:47:46.320 --> 0:47:48.680
<v Speaker 1>That's the thing I think that's so funny is like

0:47:48.760 --> 0:47:51.080
<v Speaker 1>so many people, oh, it's a great match flight course.

0:47:51.440 --> 0:47:55.840
<v Speaker 1>But it's like, I mean that seems like that be

0:47:55.920 --> 0:47:58.440
<v Speaker 1>a great course. That's just a court that you're describing

0:47:58.480 --> 0:47:59.680
<v Speaker 1>a fun golf course.

0:48:00.040 --> 0:48:01.759
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but again, if it was stroke play, I think

0:48:01.800 --> 0:48:05.839
<v Speaker 2>you would just you feel some serious punishment if.

0:48:05.760 --> 0:48:09.719
<v Speaker 1>You're that's well, that's why I hear with like the

0:48:09.800 --> 0:48:12.960
<v Speaker 1>Crump Cup, you know, and knowing a few people that

0:48:13.160 --> 0:48:16.040
<v Speaker 1>play it, like if you don't drive the ball great,

0:48:16.160 --> 0:48:18.960
<v Speaker 1>You're dead, you know, you just you know, if you

0:48:19.040 --> 0:48:21.480
<v Speaker 1>want to play well in that tournament, the Crump Cup

0:48:21.520 --> 0:48:24.120
<v Speaker 1>at Pine Valley, like, the number one thing you have

0:48:24.160 --> 0:48:27.000
<v Speaker 1>to do is drive the ball great. And typically the

0:48:27.040 --> 0:48:29.080
<v Speaker 1>best drivers of golf ball play the best there.

0:48:29.360 --> 0:48:31.879
<v Speaker 2>You know, I'll tell you what I do. Andy, as

0:48:31.880 --> 0:48:33.840
<v Speaker 2>soon as I start going down the rabbit or the

0:48:34.160 --> 0:48:37.719
<v Speaker 2>trail or the train of thought of golf should be

0:48:37.800 --> 0:48:41.320
<v Speaker 2>more fun. You know, find a ball, hit it again,

0:48:42.680 --> 0:48:45.480
<v Speaker 2>just use contours, make it where everybody has a chance.

0:48:45.719 --> 0:48:48.480
<v Speaker 2>As soon as I go down that path, there's another

0:48:48.520 --> 0:48:50.520
<v Speaker 2>path that starts up, like wait on a minute, wait

0:48:50.520 --> 0:48:54.799
<v Speaker 2>a minute. We also really like to get beat up,

0:48:54.840 --> 0:48:58.520
<v Speaker 2>you know, serious challenges where you again, back to sant Hills,

0:48:58.520 --> 0:49:00.440
<v Speaker 2>you're fifty feet down in a hallway. You've got this

0:49:00.680 --> 0:49:04.040
<v Speaker 2>one and ten chance on a recovery shot. If you

0:49:04.120 --> 0:49:08.360
<v Speaker 2>made it so quote unquote fair and reasonable for everybody

0:49:08.400 --> 0:49:10.600
<v Speaker 2>that you didn't have that chance to get in trouble,

0:49:11.000 --> 0:49:13.880
<v Speaker 2>you also never had that chance to have that spectacular recovery.

0:49:14.320 --> 0:49:16.399
<v Speaker 1>Well, I think that's you just hit on it like

0:49:17.320 --> 0:49:21.239
<v Speaker 1>and I think this is I think some of the

0:49:21.280 --> 0:49:24.000
<v Speaker 1>direction of golf architecture in the last ten years has

0:49:24.000 --> 0:49:27.160
<v Speaker 1>pushed it more into this the fair you know, the

0:49:27.280 --> 0:49:31.320
<v Speaker 1>idea fun wide every you can always get your ball around,

0:49:32.040 --> 0:49:34.680
<v Speaker 1>but I think when you get too far down and

0:49:34.719 --> 0:49:38.359
<v Speaker 1>it's just it's a pendulum, right, when you get too

0:49:38.400 --> 0:49:41.839
<v Speaker 1>far one way, what you lose is I think one

0:49:41.880 --> 0:49:45.080
<v Speaker 1>of the essences of the game is when you're standing

0:49:45.120 --> 0:49:48.480
<v Speaker 1>over a shot, in the back of your head, you're

0:49:48.520 --> 0:49:53.520
<v Speaker 1>aware of consequence and that's what you know. That's the

0:49:53.560 --> 0:49:57.319
<v Speaker 1>feeling you get and everybody that's listening to this, I

0:49:57.360 --> 0:49:59.839
<v Speaker 1>assume everybody's played golf, but that's the feeling you get

0:49:59.880 --> 0:50:03.720
<v Speaker 1>on the first t is that there's doubt and there's

0:50:04.320 --> 0:50:08.120
<v Speaker 1>a worry of well, if this doesn't go well, what

0:50:08.160 --> 0:50:10.000
<v Speaker 1>does that mean for the rest of the round? What

0:50:10.080 --> 0:50:13.200
<v Speaker 1>it is like, what the first T is is getting

0:50:13.239 --> 0:50:18.120
<v Speaker 1>you used to the like. You get more and more

0:50:18.160 --> 0:50:21.080
<v Speaker 1>comfortable with consequence as you get into your round. That's

0:50:21.120 --> 0:50:23.439
<v Speaker 1>why you're the most nervous at the front of your round.

0:50:23.760 --> 0:50:25.680
<v Speaker 1>And then that's why you're the most nervous on the

0:50:25.719 --> 0:50:29.880
<v Speaker 1>eighteenth hole putting in because at eighteen on the green,

0:50:30.560 --> 0:50:33.840
<v Speaker 1>you feel the consequence of if I make this, I

0:50:33.880 --> 0:50:37.160
<v Speaker 1>shoot x if I miss this, I shoot X. And

0:50:37.320 --> 0:50:39.400
<v Speaker 1>no matter how many people tell you, don't keep scoring

0:50:39.480 --> 0:50:43.279
<v Speaker 1>in the round, most people know around where they're at

0:50:43.520 --> 0:50:46.319
<v Speaker 1>while they're putting on eighteen. So I think that like

0:50:46.360 --> 0:50:49.120
<v Speaker 1>when you think about golf, I've never really tried to

0:50:49.320 --> 0:50:53.440
<v Speaker 1>put this into terms. It's like consequence is essentially the

0:50:53.560 --> 0:50:57.720
<v Speaker 1>key theme throughout the round, whether you're you know, keeping

0:50:57.719 --> 0:51:02.480
<v Speaker 1>score or if you're studying great golf architecture, it's a

0:51:02.960 --> 0:51:06.680
<v Speaker 1>hit it here or else, you know kind of proposition.

0:51:07.040 --> 0:51:10.319
<v Speaker 2>And I think you know, as someone you know all

0:51:10.360 --> 0:51:12.960
<v Speaker 2>of us in golf. If I have to make a choice,

0:51:13.000 --> 0:51:19.480
<v Speaker 2>if I can either have the inscrutable fare, the bunkers

0:51:19.480 --> 0:51:22.440
<v Speaker 2>are one foot deep, so you can never get criticized.

0:51:23.160 --> 0:51:25.479
<v Speaker 2>If I can either have that or the one where

0:51:26.000 --> 0:51:28.560
<v Speaker 2>and it's all stroke play and we keep down to

0:51:28.600 --> 0:51:30.920
<v Speaker 2>the decimal point, we keep who did what and what

0:51:31.000 --> 0:51:33.399
<v Speaker 2>hole and what's your total score? If I can have that,

0:51:33.640 --> 0:51:37.160
<v Speaker 2>or I can have the adventure golf where occasionally I'm

0:51:37.200 --> 0:51:40.680
<v Speaker 2>going to be absolutely out of position, I have nothing,

0:51:40.719 --> 0:51:42.440
<v Speaker 2>but then once in a while I have a spectacular

0:51:42.480 --> 0:51:44.560
<v Speaker 2>recovery and I can go in my pocket when I've

0:51:44.600 --> 0:51:48.600
<v Speaker 2>had enough. I'm taking the pocket game every single time.

0:51:48.920 --> 0:51:51.560
<v Speaker 1>Well, that's the great thing with match play because when

0:51:51.560 --> 0:51:53.319
<v Speaker 1>you had enough, you put it in your pocket, you

0:51:53.360 --> 0:51:55.839
<v Speaker 1>say it to your competitor, let's go to the next hall.

0:51:56.080 --> 0:51:58.319
<v Speaker 2>So I think one of the challenges we face right

0:51:58.360 --> 0:52:00.279
<v Speaker 2>now is how do we reconcile. Okay, we have the

0:52:00.280 --> 0:52:02.360
<v Speaker 2>pro game over here, that's fine, they can do the

0:52:02.440 --> 0:52:04.400
<v Speaker 2>thing for the rest of us who played golf to

0:52:05.040 --> 0:52:07.840
<v Speaker 2>enjoy ourselves, be challenged, have some fun. How do you

0:52:07.880 --> 0:52:10.319
<v Speaker 2>reconcile those two? How do you have a how do

0:52:10.360 --> 0:52:12.440
<v Speaker 2>we tweak we need to tweak the format, and how

0:52:12.440 --> 0:52:14.680
<v Speaker 2>do we then tweak the format where you get the

0:52:14.719 --> 0:52:19.080
<v Speaker 2>best of the match play spirit experience without losing this

0:52:19.400 --> 0:52:22.400
<v Speaker 2>all my handicap. I'm thinking about my school, which for

0:52:22.440 --> 0:52:24.319
<v Speaker 2>some people is very enjoyable as well. Is there a

0:52:24.320 --> 0:52:25.400
<v Speaker 2>way to get the two together.

0:52:26.480 --> 0:52:28.640
<v Speaker 1>I don't know. I think that it just needs to

0:52:28.680 --> 0:52:32.719
<v Speaker 1>be more madify. Maybe golf needs it needs to just

0:52:32.840 --> 0:52:37.880
<v Speaker 1>let go of the I think there's an insecurity issue

0:52:37.920 --> 0:52:40.919
<v Speaker 1>with the game of golf. Right. It's not comfortable. It's

0:52:40.960 --> 0:52:43.560
<v Speaker 1>constantly tried to be put in a box, when golf

0:52:43.640 --> 0:52:46.400
<v Speaker 1>is the game that's least in a box. Right, we

0:52:46.440 --> 0:52:49.680
<v Speaker 1>play on a different course all the time. We play

0:52:50.200 --> 0:52:53.439
<v Speaker 1>with different people all the time, the weather's different all

0:52:53.520 --> 0:52:57.120
<v Speaker 1>the time. I think the coolest thing about golf, if

0:52:57.160 --> 0:53:00.400
<v Speaker 1>I was going to tell somebody why you should play golf,

0:53:01.040 --> 0:53:07.920
<v Speaker 1>is that golf is probably much like life, the only game, sport,

0:53:08.040 --> 0:53:10.760
<v Speaker 1>whatever you want to call it, where you'll never ever

0:53:10.880 --> 0:53:14.000
<v Speaker 1>be in the exact same You'll never hit the exact

0:53:14.040 --> 0:53:17.840
<v Speaker 1>same shot twice in your life ever, right Like you

0:53:17.920 --> 0:53:20.879
<v Speaker 1>never have the exact same putt. You've had a putt. Oh,

0:53:20.960 --> 0:53:24.200
<v Speaker 1>I've had a putt close to this, and you're remembering back, Oh,

0:53:24.200 --> 0:53:25.839
<v Speaker 1>I've had a shot close to this. But the wind

0:53:25.880 --> 0:53:27.640
<v Speaker 1>will never be the same, the yard, it will never

0:53:27.680 --> 0:53:29.479
<v Speaker 1>be the same, the li will never be the same.

0:53:29.920 --> 0:53:32.839
<v Speaker 1>Like all those factors that go into hitting a great

0:53:32.880 --> 0:53:35.600
<v Speaker 1>golf shot will never be the same. Right and then,

0:53:36.000 --> 0:53:38.760
<v Speaker 1>but golf has this thing where they want to say

0:53:38.800 --> 0:53:39.839
<v Speaker 1>this is what golf is.

0:53:41.239 --> 0:53:42.960
<v Speaker 2>Maybe that's the good way to wrap it up, this

0:53:43.000 --> 0:53:46.040
<v Speaker 2>little segment where golf is like life.

0:53:46.239 --> 0:53:47.080
<v Speaker 1>You're just the host.

0:53:47.160 --> 0:53:49.640
<v Speaker 2>Now, we're not going to figure it out. We're not

0:53:49.680 --> 0:53:50.399
<v Speaker 2>going to figure it out.

0:53:50.560 --> 0:53:53.680
<v Speaker 1>You've come near the host studios of this podcast. Maybe

0:53:53.960 --> 0:53:58.360
<v Speaker 1>maybe maybe you should host it a Friday podcast. So

0:53:58.480 --> 0:54:01.359
<v Speaker 1>let's talk about this golf course that we're sitting.

0:54:01.080 --> 0:54:07.200
<v Speaker 2>At Nice when no more questions from Ben.

0:54:07.360 --> 0:54:10.120
<v Speaker 1>Now you can ask questions whenever you want. Believe me,

0:54:10.360 --> 0:54:13.879
<v Speaker 1>when it's way better discussion, when it becomes two way

0:54:14.120 --> 0:54:17.680
<v Speaker 1>than when it's one way. You know, this is your project. Really.

0:54:17.880 --> 0:54:21.759
<v Speaker 1>You know Bill and Bet are the architects. But you

0:54:22.120 --> 0:54:25.000
<v Speaker 1>know I talked to Bill about it and he'll say,

0:54:25.080 --> 0:54:27.319
<v Speaker 1>I think he said to me, Oh, you just need

0:54:27.320 --> 0:54:30.279
<v Speaker 1>to talk to James. That's really James's project. You know

0:54:30.400 --> 0:54:35.839
<v Speaker 1>the owners of Brambles, Well, it's James's project. Tell us

0:54:35.880 --> 0:54:39.239
<v Speaker 1>about you know, when you found the site and just

0:54:39.360 --> 0:54:42.400
<v Speaker 1>your journey of building Brambles.

0:54:43.600 --> 0:54:46.319
<v Speaker 2>Well, I mean some this is may have heard about

0:54:46.320 --> 0:54:49.960
<v Speaker 2>it or know about it, but it really is a

0:54:50.000 --> 0:54:52.440
<v Speaker 2>sort of manifestation of this conversation we just had for

0:54:52.480 --> 0:54:57.320
<v Speaker 2>the last half hour about you know, what is golf?

0:54:57.880 --> 0:55:01.520
<v Speaker 2>How can we create a place that we think from

0:55:01.560 --> 0:55:05.040
<v Speaker 2>our little lunch box is a fun place to go

0:55:05.239 --> 0:55:08.640
<v Speaker 2>and play this game that we love. So I think

0:55:08.640 --> 0:55:11.160
<v Speaker 2>that's where it really started. You know, I've worked on

0:55:11.200 --> 0:55:14.360
<v Speaker 2>a number of different projects with different clients, different properties,

0:55:14.400 --> 0:55:18.520
<v Speaker 2>different ideas. If you had one chance before it's all

0:55:18.560 --> 0:55:22.279
<v Speaker 2>over to build something that you feel this represents what

0:55:22.360 --> 0:55:24.759
<v Speaker 2>I believe in and what a group of people that

0:55:24.800 --> 0:55:28.040
<v Speaker 2>I can put together and we could share some interest,

0:55:28.120 --> 0:55:31.640
<v Speaker 2>share some value, should buy into what we're doing together.

0:55:32.400 --> 0:55:34.640
<v Speaker 2>What would it be? And that's really what it is.

0:55:34.760 --> 0:55:37.279
<v Speaker 2>We walking for us is a big part of that.

0:55:37.360 --> 0:55:39.080
<v Speaker 2>We don't have to drive around in a golf cart,

0:55:39.160 --> 0:55:43.920
<v Speaker 2>so the property is fairly subdued, I suppose overall, and

0:55:43.960 --> 0:55:46.719
<v Speaker 2>in terms of you just being able to walk around it.

0:55:46.800 --> 0:55:49.080
<v Speaker 2>You know, I love places like we talked about s

0:55:49.200 --> 0:55:54.040
<v Speaker 2>Andrews North Berwick, but here more locally or maybe like

0:55:55.560 --> 0:55:57.719
<v Speaker 2>you know all the old courses where they picked the

0:55:57.760 --> 0:56:01.319
<v Speaker 2>property so you could walk around and enjoy playing off.

0:56:01.400 --> 0:56:04.399
<v Speaker 2>That was a big part of it. There's a bit

0:56:04.440 --> 0:56:07.239
<v Speaker 2>of a breeze you ask you know, Ben Crenshaw. You

0:56:07.239 --> 0:56:10.120
<v Speaker 2>know the breeze and the way you have to shape

0:56:10.120 --> 0:56:11.640
<v Speaker 2>the shot. You have to hold up in the wind

0:56:11.719 --> 0:56:14.920
<v Speaker 2>or play the wind or read the wind. They figure

0:56:14.960 --> 0:56:16.760
<v Speaker 2>out the direction. So we have a pretty good breeze

0:56:16.760 --> 0:56:19.200
<v Speaker 2>out here. It's open, it's not two treelined. There are

0:56:19.239 --> 0:56:22.120
<v Speaker 2>some groupings of trees. We're just sitting here looking at them.

0:56:22.120 --> 0:56:24.880
<v Speaker 2>We were talking about them earlier. And I love that.

0:56:24.960 --> 0:56:26.719
<v Speaker 2>I love that you get up into the trees and

0:56:26.760 --> 0:56:28.520
<v Speaker 2>you get out of the trees, and you come back

0:56:28.560 --> 0:56:29.920
<v Speaker 2>and you go up in it again. But it's not

0:56:29.960 --> 0:56:32.680
<v Speaker 2>all tree lined, it's not all open. There's some variety

0:56:32.719 --> 0:56:37.000
<v Speaker 2>in the scenery and the topography. And it was a

0:56:37.040 --> 0:56:39.239
<v Speaker 2>place where we felt like if you built something like

0:56:39.320 --> 0:56:43.600
<v Speaker 2>a chest high mound or contour, it would be meaningful

0:56:43.719 --> 0:56:45.839
<v Speaker 2>because again, you're sort of it's sort of a horizontal

0:56:46.640 --> 0:56:49.160
<v Speaker 2>type of property as opposed to if you build that

0:56:49.239 --> 0:56:53.000
<v Speaker 2>on a more hilly property, it just doesn't make any sense.

0:56:53.560 --> 0:56:55.160
<v Speaker 2>But then we have a hole like five, which is

0:56:55.160 --> 0:56:57.560
<v Speaker 2>a proper up and over a hill type of hole.

0:56:57.680 --> 0:57:00.160
<v Speaker 2>The old white rock on the face of the hill.

0:57:00.200 --> 0:57:01.080
<v Speaker 2>Just aim for that.

0:57:01.160 --> 0:57:04.279
<v Speaker 1>And I'm kind of disappointed that you guys pulled the

0:57:04.280 --> 0:57:07.239
<v Speaker 1>fairway down. You know that you should have just left

0:57:07.239 --> 0:57:08.280
<v Speaker 1>it completely blind.

0:57:09.160 --> 0:57:13.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well, we'll see, we'll see. But that's that's in

0:57:13.560 --> 0:57:17.120
<v Speaker 2>essence what it is. And then just trying to cobble

0:57:17.120 --> 0:57:20.280
<v Speaker 2>together a group of people who buy into this idea,

0:57:20.880 --> 0:57:24.560
<v Speaker 2>who can see the project as something we're doing together,

0:57:24.600 --> 0:57:29.040
<v Speaker 2>as opposed to where's my locker? How many tea times?

0:57:29.080 --> 0:57:31.680
<v Speaker 2>Do I get you know, forget that. Just if you

0:57:31.720 --> 0:57:34.000
<v Speaker 2>want to be part of building something that we're building together,

0:57:34.320 --> 0:57:38.760
<v Speaker 2>that we enjoy together. Great, but let's not fall into

0:57:38.800 --> 0:57:41.160
<v Speaker 2>some of that. We do so many unnecessary things in

0:57:41.600 --> 0:57:47.480
<v Speaker 2>most of golf things, we convince ourselves we need stacked

0:57:47.480 --> 0:57:50.040
<v Speaker 2>balls on the range. I mean you you can start

0:57:50.120 --> 0:57:52.920
<v Speaker 2>right there and just say who really needs that? And

0:57:53.000 --> 0:57:56.680
<v Speaker 2>yet effort goes into it. One person does it, then

0:57:56.720 --> 0:57:58.640
<v Speaker 2>the next person thinks they have to do it, and

0:57:58.640 --> 0:58:01.439
<v Speaker 2>all of a sudden you get this huge, big bill

0:58:01.480 --> 0:58:03.440
<v Speaker 2>for playing around the golf and well how that happened. Well,

0:58:03.480 --> 0:58:07.400
<v Speaker 2>we convinced our sales we needed all this stuff. We're

0:58:07.440 --> 0:58:10.880
<v Speaker 2>trying to go back to eighteen seventy. It's just a

0:58:10.920 --> 0:58:12.920
<v Speaker 2>bunch of people out there crashing around in the field

0:58:13.040 --> 0:58:13.880
<v Speaker 2>playing golf together.

0:58:16.080 --> 0:58:20.360
<v Speaker 1>I was, you know, one of the courses that gets

0:58:20.560 --> 0:58:24.000
<v Speaker 1>you know, admired the most in golf is Chicago Golf.

0:58:24.640 --> 0:58:26.240
<v Speaker 1>You know, and a lot of people never get to

0:58:26.280 --> 0:58:28.880
<v Speaker 1>see it. But like you know, people always like to

0:58:28.880 --> 0:58:30.880
<v Speaker 1>talk about how great the golf course is. But like

0:58:30.960 --> 0:58:32.880
<v Speaker 1>one of the things that every time I go there

0:58:33.200 --> 0:58:37.600
<v Speaker 1>that I walk away with is like how utilitarian the

0:58:37.680 --> 0:58:42.000
<v Speaker 1>place is run and how you know how simple like

0:58:42.080 --> 0:58:46.040
<v Speaker 1>the operational side of it is, like it's it's brilliantly simple.

0:58:46.840 --> 0:58:49.520
<v Speaker 1>And one of the things that the conversation that I'll

0:58:49.520 --> 0:58:52.680
<v Speaker 1>always I was talking to the head pro during COVID

0:58:53.200 --> 0:58:55.520
<v Speaker 1>and he was he was like, I was like, what's

0:58:55.560 --> 0:58:57.520
<v Speaker 1>going on with caddies that He's like, I don't think

0:58:57.520 --> 0:58:59.240
<v Speaker 1>we're going to be able to have caddies like when

0:58:59.280 --> 0:59:02.560
<v Speaker 1>they're reopening back up. And I was like, Oh, that's

0:59:02.640 --> 0:59:06.000
<v Speaker 1>that's too bad. He's like, I'm really worried about golf

0:59:06.080 --> 0:59:10.280
<v Speaker 1>carts and I go, what do you mean, Like what

0:59:10.480 --> 0:59:12.919
<v Speaker 1>you know? He's like, well, like the people that can't

0:59:12.960 --> 0:59:16.280
<v Speaker 1>carry their bag, like we don't have enough golf carts.

0:59:16.680 --> 0:59:19.760
<v Speaker 1>And I just like it made me like burst out laughing.

0:59:19.800 --> 0:59:22.160
<v Speaker 1>It's like, here's this like club and I think most

0:59:22.160 --> 0:59:25.280
<v Speaker 1>people's like outward image of it is like this, this

0:59:25.400 --> 0:59:30.120
<v Speaker 1>is a ritzy place that you know, but they didn't

0:59:30.160 --> 0:59:32.960
<v Speaker 1>have enough golf carts to suffice for their tiny little

0:59:33.000 --> 0:59:36.920
<v Speaker 1>membership when you know when they might have a influx

0:59:36.920 --> 0:59:40.720
<v Speaker 1>of riders. And it's like that simplicity of operation is

0:59:40.760 --> 0:59:43.919
<v Speaker 1>really beautiful that you know they have like just enough

0:59:43.960 --> 0:59:44.919
<v Speaker 1>golf carts to get by.

0:59:46.120 --> 0:59:49.439
<v Speaker 2>Now. That's Chicago Golf is a really good example of

0:59:49.800 --> 0:59:53.600
<v Speaker 2>somewhere that we have actually sort of tried to draw

0:59:53.760 --> 0:59:55.919
<v Speaker 2>the essence out of. We're not one of the five

0:59:55.920 --> 0:59:58.280
<v Speaker 2>founding members of the USGA, we haven't been around forever,

0:59:58.800 --> 1:00:00.640
<v Speaker 2>but we can still go there and look at what

1:00:00.680 --> 1:00:04.560
<v Speaker 2>they do and try and take away what they do well.

1:00:04.920 --> 1:00:07.280
<v Speaker 2>And we've been very lucky to do that. And at

1:00:07.320 --> 1:00:09.320
<v Speaker 2>the time, Scott Border was still the superintendent when we

1:00:09.360 --> 1:00:12.160
<v Speaker 2>went and visited a few years ago, and he would say, look,

1:00:12.600 --> 1:00:15.960
<v Speaker 2>we just nothing's precious. We just we got a new

1:00:15.960 --> 1:00:19.000
<v Speaker 2>guy on the crew. Go out Mother Greens. What's the

1:00:19.040 --> 1:00:20.880
<v Speaker 2>worst case? You scouted down a little bit and it'll

1:00:20.920 --> 1:00:22.800
<v Speaker 2>be fine in the week. I mean it'd be fine,

1:00:22.840 --> 1:00:28.560
<v Speaker 2>just go mo. So that attitude of just small crew,

1:00:28.840 --> 1:00:31.000
<v Speaker 2>everybody can do a little bit of everything. You just

1:00:31.040 --> 1:00:33.280
<v Speaker 2>kind of work together onced.

1:00:32.960 --> 1:00:35.440
<v Speaker 1>You first visit this site, When did you first find

1:00:35.480 --> 1:00:38.440
<v Speaker 1>this site? And what drew you? Like? I think people

1:00:39.120 --> 1:00:41.920
<v Speaker 1>you know that listen to this probably drive down the

1:00:42.000 --> 1:00:46.400
<v Speaker 1>road and think about properties as golf sites and I'm curious,

1:00:46.440 --> 1:00:49.840
<v Speaker 1>like you know, there's a lot of land, yeah, and

1:00:50.080 --> 1:00:56.000
<v Speaker 1>here we're in northern California. What about this property drew

1:00:56.040 --> 1:00:56.560
<v Speaker 1>you to it?

1:00:57.320 --> 1:01:01.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I mentioned the dosk Weblos project earlier on, and

1:01:01.280 --> 1:01:05.320
<v Speaker 2>that certainly reminded me that you have to be careful.

1:01:05.360 --> 1:01:08.280
<v Speaker 2>It's not a foregone conclusion that you can get permission

1:01:08.280 --> 1:01:10.440
<v Speaker 2>to build something just because you think, oh, look at that,

1:01:10.440 --> 1:01:12.320
<v Speaker 2>it's beautiful some dunes out in the ocean. Let's go

1:01:12.320 --> 1:01:15.320
<v Speaker 2>build a golf course over there. So I step number

1:01:15.320 --> 1:01:17.560
<v Speaker 2>one was it might spend a third of time in California.

1:01:17.600 --> 1:01:22.320
<v Speaker 2>Step number one was nothing in the California Coastal Commission jurisdiction,

1:01:22.400 --> 1:01:26.280
<v Speaker 2>because we'll just never get it done the Wine Country

1:01:26.360 --> 1:01:28.920
<v Speaker 2>and I was living down in the South Bay, down

1:01:28.960 --> 1:01:33.040
<v Speaker 2>in Sam's area at the time, but it was literally

1:01:33.400 --> 1:01:36.560
<v Speaker 2>Golden gate Bridge draw circle around it sort of two hours.

1:01:36.880 --> 1:01:39.840
<v Speaker 2>Where could you go from San Francisco or the sort

1:01:39.840 --> 1:01:42.520
<v Speaker 2>of the Central Bay area and get to somewhere where

1:01:42.960 --> 1:01:44.960
<v Speaker 2>you could get this thing built and it would make

1:01:45.040 --> 1:01:49.080
<v Speaker 2>sense to do it. Looked out towards Tahoe at the time,

1:01:49.240 --> 1:01:51.400
<v Speaker 2>was really been a lot of stuff built over there.

1:01:51.440 --> 1:01:55.840
<v Speaker 2>It felt a little overbuilt, and there was really nothing between.

1:01:56.680 --> 1:01:59.320
<v Speaker 2>So he went to Sacramento. There's no reason to go

1:01:59.360 --> 1:02:02.320
<v Speaker 2>out there anyway. You could go down the peninsula, you

1:02:02.320 --> 1:02:04.840
<v Speaker 2>could go down Tomorrow Ray, but then you would never

1:02:04.840 --> 1:02:07.360
<v Speaker 2>get out from under the shadows of Cyprus and Pebble

1:02:07.440 --> 1:02:09.680
<v Speaker 2>and all those places. Plenty of good stuff down there,

1:02:10.200 --> 1:02:14.160
<v Speaker 2>it wouldn't really mean anything down there, But the Wine

1:02:14.200 --> 1:02:17.240
<v Speaker 2>Country was the one where there really wasn't much good golf.

1:02:17.640 --> 1:02:19.919
<v Speaker 2>There's ma Akama, which is a wonderful club just over

1:02:19.960 --> 1:02:23.240
<v Speaker 2>the hill, a couple of little local golf courses. There's

1:02:23.240 --> 1:02:26.400
<v Speaker 2>an older club, Sonoma Golf Club, which does well and

1:02:26.440 --> 1:02:28.240
<v Speaker 2>has a nice membership, and they do fine, but there

1:02:28.240 --> 1:02:32.280
<v Speaker 2>really wasn't much. If you were up here for other

1:02:32.320 --> 1:02:35.080
<v Speaker 2>reasons and you wanted to play golf, there really wasn't much.

1:02:35.200 --> 1:02:37.439
<v Speaker 2>I think that's really when the lot of light went off,

1:02:37.440 --> 1:02:40.600
<v Speaker 2>that if we could find a place within striking distance

1:02:40.680 --> 1:02:45.000
<v Speaker 2>of the Wine Country in general, a place that millions

1:02:45.000 --> 1:02:48.640
<v Speaker 2>of people come to from all over the world. Not

1:02:48.720 --> 1:02:50.720
<v Speaker 2>only do you then have people who come and use

1:02:50.720 --> 1:02:53.600
<v Speaker 2>the facility, which we want to maintain a healthy county

1:02:53.680 --> 1:02:56.280
<v Speaker 2>program and all that stuff, you also get built in

1:02:56.440 --> 1:03:00.720
<v Speaker 2>geographic diversity. You get people from New Zealand, people from Chile,

1:03:00.800 --> 1:03:03.640
<v Speaker 2>to get people from Denmark, all over the place coming here,

1:03:04.120 --> 1:03:06.920
<v Speaker 2>which he might say, I mean, that's a little esoteric,

1:03:06.960 --> 1:03:09.000
<v Speaker 2>but I do think when it comes to the culture

1:03:09.000 --> 1:03:10.520
<v Speaker 2>of the club and the people who come through here

1:03:10.600 --> 1:03:14.520
<v Speaker 2>to have that, I think it's going to have a

1:03:14.600 --> 1:03:17.880
<v Speaker 2>significant impact on what we become as a club and

1:03:17.920 --> 1:03:19.640
<v Speaker 2>as a place to play. Imagine you're sitting on the

1:03:19.640 --> 1:03:21.600
<v Speaker 2>porch out here and there's, oh, yeah, we just flew

1:03:21.600 --> 1:03:24.960
<v Speaker 2>in from Argentina two days ago, we have family down

1:03:25.000 --> 1:03:27.640
<v Speaker 2>in Saint Lena or whatever. I think that could be

1:03:27.680 --> 1:03:29.760
<v Speaker 2>a neat piece of who we become.

1:03:30.480 --> 1:03:33.840
<v Speaker 1>I mean, yeah. One of the strangest human beings I

1:03:33.840 --> 1:03:36.880
<v Speaker 1>ever played golf with was that Monterey Peninsula. This guy

1:03:37.560 --> 1:03:40.920
<v Speaker 1>I played, I was playing with Zach Blair and we

1:03:40.920 --> 1:03:43.800
<v Speaker 1>were on this trip, but he he invited a guy

1:03:43.800 --> 1:03:46.040
<v Speaker 1>that he met at the coffee shop that morning to

1:03:46.120 --> 1:03:49.040
<v Speaker 1>be our fourth. He's this guy. Hes a guy from Germany.

1:03:49.120 --> 1:03:51.000
<v Speaker 1>He was a golf bro from Germany.

1:03:51.400 --> 1:03:53.560
<v Speaker 3>And it was like one of the most fascinating things

1:03:53.600 --> 1:03:56.320
<v Speaker 3>because here's this like guy who's at the coffee shop

1:03:57.240 --> 1:03:59.960
<v Speaker 3>and he got invited to go play Monterey Peninsula Club

1:04:00.600 --> 1:04:02.840
<v Speaker 3>that morning, and you just happen to be a German

1:04:02.880 --> 1:04:04.960
<v Speaker 3>golf bro and He's like, yeah, I'll go play.

1:04:04.960 --> 1:04:07.920
<v Speaker 1>Sure, And here he is. We're playing. And it was

1:04:08.000 --> 1:04:10.040
<v Speaker 1>just like a fascinating thing because I learned a lot

1:04:10.080 --> 1:04:13.320
<v Speaker 1>about like German golf, Like I would never have learned that,

1:04:13.480 --> 1:04:15.400
<v Speaker 1>And I think that's one of the neat things Also

1:04:15.520 --> 1:04:18.560
<v Speaker 1>about a golf course is like it's a meeting place.

1:04:18.600 --> 1:04:20.360
<v Speaker 1>It's a place where you can learn stuff, you can

1:04:20.400 --> 1:04:22.800
<v Speaker 1>talk and converse with people, and you know, you get,

1:04:23.040 --> 1:04:25.320
<v Speaker 1>like you said, a wide range of backgrounds. The more

1:04:25.920 --> 1:04:30.400
<v Speaker 1>more different people you know from different backgrounds, it just

1:04:30.680 --> 1:04:33.200
<v Speaker 1>it adds a whole place, right.

1:04:33.200 --> 1:04:34.959
<v Speaker 2>And I'll tell you what. And it's just like the

1:04:35.120 --> 1:04:38.160
<v Speaker 2>Power or no Pa or match plays strup Per. You

1:04:38.160 --> 1:04:42.000
<v Speaker 2>can bake it into the pie. You can consciously say

1:04:42.400 --> 1:04:44.479
<v Speaker 2>we want this type of property, but we also want

1:04:44.520 --> 1:04:47.600
<v Speaker 2>to try and build a certain type of club and

1:04:47.960 --> 1:04:50.760
<v Speaker 2>really pull these levers and say rather than nothing to

1:04:50.760 --> 1:04:53.080
<v Speaker 2>me would be more boring than if we became a

1:04:53.200 --> 1:04:56.280
<v Speaker 2>version of say so generally the Hampton's Right, where the

1:04:56.320 --> 1:04:58.360
<v Speaker 2>same people you saw all week long in the city,

1:04:59.280 --> 1:05:00.880
<v Speaker 2>now you're hanging out with them at the beach club

1:05:01.560 --> 1:05:05.120
<v Speaker 2>in the Hampton's Right. I mean that's nice, but it's

1:05:05.280 --> 1:05:07.760
<v Speaker 2>just much more interesting if you just get some fresh

1:05:07.760 --> 1:05:09.720
<v Speaker 2>influences and some people who have a different point of

1:05:09.800 --> 1:05:11.320
<v Speaker 2>view than yours, Like you know, I've never thought about

1:05:11.320 --> 1:05:13.680
<v Speaker 2>it like that. The guy from Germany who says, well,

1:05:15.040 --> 1:05:17.560
<v Speaker 2>we don't stack our range balls and pyramids, we do

1:05:17.600 --> 1:05:20.080
<v Speaker 2>them in snake or whatever. I mean, just something different

1:05:20.120 --> 1:05:21.680
<v Speaker 2>and interesting that you never had thought about.

1:05:22.200 --> 1:05:25.439
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, that's how are you going to go about

1:05:25.440 --> 1:05:28.400
<v Speaker 1>getting that? Is it just the influence of having a

1:05:28.480 --> 1:05:31.040
<v Speaker 1>place like do you think it'll just naturally happen from

1:05:31.040 --> 1:05:35.000
<v Speaker 1>having wine country right there? We're very lucky members too.

1:05:34.920 --> 1:05:37.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, we do. And we're very lucky that we now.

1:05:38.400 --> 1:05:39.840
<v Speaker 2>I mean, we're just so lucky to be in the

1:05:39.880 --> 1:05:42.040
<v Speaker 2>position we are now where it actually looks like this

1:05:42.080 --> 1:05:44.600
<v Speaker 2>golf course is good. It's going to work, and the

1:05:44.640 --> 1:05:48.040
<v Speaker 2>grasses are going to grow, and it's just a it's

1:05:48.080 --> 1:05:50.400
<v Speaker 2>a great spot. And we've had a lot of support

1:05:50.480 --> 1:05:53.520
<v Speaker 2>we have. We've been lucky that people really you can

1:05:53.560 --> 1:05:57.320
<v Speaker 2>tell some people they can't see it, but they can

1:05:57.360 --> 1:06:00.840
<v Speaker 2>hear you talk about it. Their friends get it, the

1:06:00.920 --> 1:06:03.200
<v Speaker 2>billcorep Ban crunch Shaw thing. You know, if they think

1:06:03.240 --> 1:06:06.160
<v Speaker 2>this is something that is worth for them to be involved,

1:06:06.160 --> 1:06:08.120
<v Speaker 2>and then it's probably going to be okay. So I

1:06:08.160 --> 1:06:09.760
<v Speaker 2>think there was a part of that early on where

1:06:09.800 --> 1:06:12.280
<v Speaker 2>guys were just mostly guys. We're very lucky to have

1:06:12.720 --> 1:06:14.640
<v Speaker 2>quite a few women members as well, and we'd love

1:06:14.640 --> 1:06:20.760
<v Speaker 2>to get some more. But I think there's the there

1:06:20.840 --> 1:06:25.200
<v Speaker 2>is this sense of being part of something, and ironically

1:06:25.200 --> 1:06:28.200
<v Speaker 2>we haven't really tapped into the because we're not open yet.

1:06:28.400 --> 1:06:31.040
<v Speaker 2>So this idea that people actually come and play while

1:06:31.040 --> 1:06:33.240
<v Speaker 2>they're in the one country, we haven't really experienced that yet,

1:06:33.280 --> 1:06:36.760
<v Speaker 2>but I'm pretty sure it'll happen. And then the key

1:06:36.240 --> 1:06:41.640
<v Speaker 2>the luxury problem we have then, or challenge, is to

1:06:41.720 --> 1:06:44.720
<v Speaker 2>make sure that we leave spots for interesting people who

1:06:44.720 --> 1:06:47.360
<v Speaker 2>come along who want to be part of this as members.

1:06:48.760 --> 1:06:49.840
<v Speaker 2>It's a great problem to.

1:06:49.760 --> 1:06:54.440
<v Speaker 1>Have, and there's a from what I understand, there's an

1:06:55.120 --> 1:06:58.520
<v Speaker 1>aspect of accessibility that's always going to be a big

1:06:58.560 --> 1:06:59.040
<v Speaker 1>part of.

1:06:58.960 --> 1:07:05.560
<v Speaker 2>It, right absolutely, I again, without naming names, I can

1:07:05.680 --> 1:07:09.240
<v Speaker 2>remember several projects where you now, you go out and you

1:07:09.280 --> 1:07:11.080
<v Speaker 2>put two years into building a golf course, and the

1:07:11.080 --> 1:07:13.360
<v Speaker 2>guys are out there double cutting and raking all the bunkers.

1:07:14.040 --> 1:07:18.080
<v Speaker 2>Nobody's playing, Nobody is playing. I mean, I can see

1:07:18.080 --> 1:07:22.200
<v Speaker 2>how that's maybe exclusive, but it's also like there's nothing happening.

1:07:23.240 --> 1:07:25.280
<v Speaker 2>You've got to have some play, especially if you want

1:07:25.280 --> 1:07:27.800
<v Speaker 2>to have a candy program. You've got to have some volume.

1:07:29.000 --> 1:07:33.800
<v Speaker 2>And nobody goes to St. Andrews or those band and

1:07:33.880 --> 1:07:37.080
<v Speaker 2>nobody goes to Bandon and maybe you know and complains

1:07:37.080 --> 1:07:39.240
<v Speaker 2>about all those too many people here. It's all golf

1:07:39.360 --> 1:07:42.360
<v Speaker 2>enthusiasts who are there to have fun. I don't think

1:07:42.360 --> 1:07:44.760
<v Speaker 2>we're ever going to be packed up here unless we

1:07:44.800 --> 1:07:47.600
<v Speaker 2>have an event or something. But let's have some play.

1:07:47.640 --> 1:07:49.000
<v Speaker 2>Let's have people come out and play it.

1:07:49.240 --> 1:07:53.720
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Yeah, it's it's neat, it's you know. Can you

1:07:53.800 --> 1:07:57.360
<v Speaker 1>talk through some of the you know, challenges of building

1:07:57.400 --> 1:08:01.080
<v Speaker 1>here in California and this operaty specifically.

1:08:01.680 --> 1:08:04.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Actually one of our most recent members asked me

1:08:05.240 --> 1:08:08.480
<v Speaker 2>that question the other day. He said, well, what's what was?

1:08:08.840 --> 1:08:11.440
<v Speaker 2>What's what's? He asked me, what surprised you the most

1:08:11.880 --> 1:08:16.559
<v Speaker 2>during the bill process? And knock on wood, I would

1:08:16.560 --> 1:08:19.160
<v Speaker 2>almost say that it's been as smooth as it has been.

1:08:20.880 --> 1:08:24.240
<v Speaker 2>I think COVID has been a factor that you know, Yes,

1:08:24.280 --> 1:08:28.120
<v Speaker 2>it was hard to get materials, It hard to get

1:08:28.280 --> 1:08:30.240
<v Speaker 2>you know, a crew put together. But once we had

1:08:30.240 --> 1:08:33.400
<v Speaker 2>a crew, and once we had our stuff here, we

1:08:33.520 --> 1:08:37.240
<v Speaker 2>just got after it outside and working, and so I

1:08:37.280 --> 1:08:39.880
<v Speaker 2>think we actually had a was it was a good

1:08:39.880 --> 1:08:41.439
<v Speaker 2>time to build a golf course. And then of course

1:08:41.520 --> 1:08:44.880
<v Speaker 2>the last year of prices of skyrocketed on everything. Good

1:08:44.960 --> 1:08:47.640
<v Speaker 2>luck getting sprinkledheads or whatever you're trying to get and

1:08:47.680 --> 1:08:49.200
<v Speaker 2>if you can get them there twice what they were

1:08:49.240 --> 1:08:53.400
<v Speaker 2>a year ago. So no, we've been been very fortunate,

1:08:53.479 --> 1:08:55.160
<v Speaker 2>good good time to build.

1:08:55.160 --> 1:08:59.000
<v Speaker 4>It's no question every everything's expensive. Everything in the world

1:08:59.120 --> 1:09:04.880
<v Speaker 4>expensive right now, you know. Yeah, So obviously I think

1:09:04.920 --> 1:09:06.920
<v Speaker 4>that one of the things that people take away from

1:09:07.000 --> 1:09:11.040
<v Speaker 4>this course, like it's like visually when you think a

1:09:11.120 --> 1:09:13.160
<v Speaker 4>lot of times when you think of Core Crunchhaw, it's

1:09:13.200 --> 1:09:16.599
<v Speaker 4>like striking, and here, I think it's a little bit less.

1:09:17.280 --> 1:09:18.920
<v Speaker 4>I think it's subtle, you know.

1:09:19.000 --> 1:09:21.600
<v Speaker 1>I think there's this golf course, like I think a

1:09:21.600 --> 1:09:25.000
<v Speaker 1>lot of people like when I first saw photos of

1:09:25.160 --> 1:09:27.479
<v Speaker 1>the property, I thought it was flat, and then you

1:09:27.560 --> 1:09:29.800
<v Speaker 1>get out here and you're like, oh, there's a lot

1:09:29.840 --> 1:09:32.800
<v Speaker 1>of good movement here. I mean, like a popular thing

1:09:32.840 --> 1:09:35.800
<v Speaker 1>is to call Chicago golf flat, but there's a good

1:09:35.840 --> 1:09:39.160
<v Speaker 1>movement on Chicago golf. Right, of course, we talked about

1:09:39.439 --> 1:09:42.200
<v Speaker 1>here has good movement, but it's a little bit more subtle.

1:09:42.240 --> 1:09:44.439
<v Speaker 1>It's not it doesn't have the big ups and downs

1:09:44.479 --> 1:09:46.519
<v Speaker 1>you talked about how you could add bumps like is

1:09:46.560 --> 1:09:49.320
<v Speaker 1>there are other things that you think get drawn out

1:09:49.360 --> 1:09:51.680
<v Speaker 1>a little bit more when you have a piece of

1:09:51.720 --> 1:09:54.240
<v Speaker 1>ground that's not maybe as into your face as some

1:09:54.280 --> 1:09:55.400
<v Speaker 1>of the dramatic sites.

1:09:55.720 --> 1:09:58.639
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I might just tweak that a little bit and

1:09:59.160 --> 1:10:01.240
<v Speaker 2>just take you back to the conversations we had with

1:10:01.400 --> 1:10:04.720
<v Speaker 2>Bill and Ben when they came out here that you

1:10:04.760 --> 1:10:08.400
<v Speaker 2>know we we said to them, look, you know, don't

1:10:08.439 --> 1:10:11.080
<v Speaker 2>hold back. You don't have to worry about it being

1:10:11.120 --> 1:10:15.200
<v Speaker 2>too severe, you don't have to worry about the contours. Well,

1:10:15.280 --> 1:10:18.360
<v Speaker 2>just we'll have green speeds can be whatever these contours

1:10:18.360 --> 1:10:21.320
<v Speaker 2>will support. Don't worry about it. We'll figure that out.

1:10:22.040 --> 1:10:24.800
<v Speaker 2>We also had a conversation about how, yeah, we don't

1:10:24.840 --> 1:10:27.680
<v Speaker 2>really we don't. Nobody plays the old course or in

1:10:27.680 --> 1:10:30.000
<v Speaker 2>North Beric and goes, wow, can you believe did you

1:10:30.000 --> 1:10:33.000
<v Speaker 2>see that beautiful bunkering out there? Know that the bunkers

1:10:33.439 --> 1:10:37.519
<v Speaker 2>shadows great placements, holes in the ground, ground the kind

1:10:37.520 --> 1:10:40.040
<v Speaker 2>of draws you into the bunker. How about we have

1:10:40.120 --> 1:10:42.000
<v Speaker 2>something like that, because if we try and do something

1:10:42.040 --> 1:10:44.559
<v Speaker 2>that's more visual, we're always going to look like a

1:10:44.600 --> 1:10:48.559
<v Speaker 2>horrible version of the beautiful work they've done at Centras

1:10:48.600 --> 1:10:51.519
<v Speaker 2>Golf Club, Cow Club or Rinder. I mean, take your

1:10:51.560 --> 1:10:53.519
<v Speaker 2>pick of all the Bay Area clubs that have done

1:10:53.560 --> 1:10:56.479
<v Speaker 2>a beautiful job with their bunkering, and it's very visual.

1:10:57.240 --> 1:10:59.840
<v Speaker 2>We go the other way. We go the bunker is

1:11:00.120 --> 1:11:02.360
<v Speaker 2>it's a hole in the ground with a shadow, and

1:11:02.439 --> 1:11:04.920
<v Speaker 2>try to stay out of it. And I also think

1:11:05.080 --> 1:11:10.680
<v Speaker 2>the whole types rather than bunker left, bunker right strategy

1:11:10.720 --> 1:11:13.080
<v Speaker 2>play around. How about the first hole is the one

1:11:13.120 --> 1:11:15.200
<v Speaker 2>with the ditch in front of the green. How about

1:11:15.240 --> 1:11:16.840
<v Speaker 2>the fifth holes, the one we hit it over the hill.

1:11:17.479 --> 1:11:19.120
<v Speaker 2>How about the sixth holes, the one with the stone

1:11:19.160 --> 1:11:21.559
<v Speaker 2>wall along the side where they have a lot of

1:11:21.640 --> 1:11:26.280
<v Speaker 2>sort of inherent personality procrastinate as the lemma. I mean,

1:11:26.320 --> 1:11:27.840
<v Speaker 2>you've got a hole there wheret some point you're gonna

1:11:27.840 --> 1:11:30.479
<v Speaker 2>have to cross over the creek. Those are the ones

1:11:30.520 --> 1:11:35.200
<v Speaker 2>that I again this is very selfish, but that kind

1:11:35.240 --> 1:11:38.360
<v Speaker 2>of personality, there's sort of landscapes in and of themselves

1:11:38.960 --> 1:11:41.400
<v Speaker 2>away I not try to believe the point, but to

1:11:41.439 --> 1:11:43.320
<v Speaker 2>your question about can you if you have a more

1:11:43.320 --> 1:11:47.880
<v Speaker 2>subdued property, can you build more severe greens? Probably? I

1:11:47.880 --> 1:11:50.080
<v Speaker 2>mean we have some out here. Two is a two

1:11:50.160 --> 1:11:53.479
<v Speaker 2>and three right there. Two particularly two was really not

1:11:53.600 --> 1:11:56.080
<v Speaker 2>much to look at. Yeah, it was just a simple

1:11:56.120 --> 1:11:59.000
<v Speaker 2>little down towards the creek and back up again. And

1:11:59.040 --> 1:12:01.880
<v Speaker 2>then you build the green that has all that movement

1:12:01.880 --> 1:12:04.160
<v Speaker 2>in it and it sys that it fits. I mean again,

1:12:04.280 --> 1:12:11.200
<v Speaker 2>shout out Ryan Farrow, Zach Varady, Benjamin Warren, Amon Sullivan.

1:12:11.240 --> 1:12:12.880
<v Speaker 2>I mean, the guys who were out here just did

1:12:13.400 --> 1:12:15.719
<v Speaker 2>incredible job, and I think Ryan needs a special shot.

1:12:15.760 --> 1:12:19.360
<v Speaker 2>He really led that whole charge on sort of taking

1:12:19.360 --> 1:12:21.840
<v Speaker 2>Bill and Ben's guidance and saying here's here's what we're

1:12:21.880 --> 1:12:24.639
<v Speaker 2>doing and then figuring out what that meant. And there's

1:12:24.680 --> 1:12:28.760
<v Speaker 2>plenty of severe stuff, but it all, it all works beautifully.

1:12:28.760 --> 1:12:31.400
<v Speaker 2>So yeah, I couldn't be more proud of those guys

1:12:31.479 --> 1:12:33.719
<v Speaker 2>and happy with with what they've done.

1:12:34.000 --> 1:12:36.000
<v Speaker 1>I can't wait till we can play golf out here

1:12:36.200 --> 1:12:40.080
<v Speaker 1>me too, you know. That's uh, that's what I mean. So, James,

1:12:40.160 --> 1:12:43.200
<v Speaker 1>this is part one. Well we'll do part two, part

1:12:43.240 --> 1:12:46.960
<v Speaker 1>three some other date, you know. But I appreciate you

1:12:47.040 --> 1:12:47.439
<v Speaker 1>coming on.

1:12:47.640 --> 1:12:51.719
<v Speaker 2>Good. Thank you. Yeah, a good fun all right.

1:12:51.760 --> 1:13:05.960
<v Speaker 1>Thanks, thanks guys, thank you for listening to another edition

1:13:06.080 --> 1:13:09.920
<v Speaker 1>of the Frida Egg podcast. Today's episode was edited by

1:13:10.040 --> 1:13:13.880
<v Speaker 1>Meg Atkins. Thank you Meg. As I mentioned at the top,

1:13:14.160 --> 1:13:17.960
<v Speaker 1>I will be writing a bunch of journal entries of

1:13:18.000 --> 1:13:21.800
<v Speaker 1>our time in Scotland. If you are interested in getting those,

1:13:22.400 --> 1:13:25.439
<v Speaker 1>I would sign up for the Fridagg newsletter. It is free.

1:13:25.760 --> 1:13:28.920
<v Speaker 1>It comes out three days a week Monday Wednesday Friday.

1:13:29.360 --> 1:13:32.280
<v Speaker 1>Will Knights writes a lot of it. Brendan writes in it,

1:13:32.560 --> 1:13:35.960
<v Speaker 1>Brenda Porath, Garrett Morrison writes in it. I write in

1:13:36.000 --> 1:13:39.160
<v Speaker 1>it occasionally and it's a great way to stay up

1:13:39.160 --> 1:13:42.000
<v Speaker 1>to date with all the golf news that's going on,

1:13:42.320 --> 1:13:46.880
<v Speaker 1>as well as my journals from Scotland. So sign up

1:13:46.880 --> 1:13:49.600
<v Speaker 1>at Thefrida Egg dot com for that and thanks for

1:13:49.680 --> 1:13:52.519
<v Speaker 1>listening to another edition of the podcast. We will be

1:13:52.640 --> 1:14:08.360
<v Speaker 1>back on Friday.