1 00:00:07,280 --> 00:00:10,760 Speaker 1: You're listening to Alive Again, a production of Psychopia Pictures 2 00:00:10,760 --> 00:00:16,160 Speaker 1: and iHeart Podcasts. Welcome back to Alive Again. I'm your 3 00:00:16,160 --> 00:00:19,000 Speaker 1: host Dan Bush. Today we are honored to be joined 4 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 1: by a truly remarkable guest whose work invites us to 5 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:25,599 Speaker 1: see death not as an end, but as a sacred transition, 6 00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:29,240 Speaker 1: a threshold to something greater. Doctor Sarah Kerr is a 7 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:32,720 Speaker 1: death Dulah ritual healing practitioner and the founder of the 8 00:00:32,760 --> 00:00:36,120 Speaker 1: Center for Sacred Death Care. With a PhD and transformative 9 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:40,080 Speaker 1: learning and decades of studying cross cultural energy healing, Sarah 10 00:00:40,120 --> 00:00:44,560 Speaker 1: helps individuals and families navigate dying and grieving with intention, grace, 11 00:00:44,720 --> 00:00:47,440 Speaker 1: and a deep sense of meaning. Her work draws on 12 00:00:47,479 --> 00:00:50,760 Speaker 1: ancient wisdom as well as contemporary practices to help people 13 00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:54,120 Speaker 1: connect with the sacredness of what is perhaps life's most 14 00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:57,800 Speaker 1: profound transition. In a world that often fears death, Doctor 15 00:00:57,880 --> 00:01:01,760 Speaker 1: Kerr invites us to lean in to honour and ultimately 16 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:04,959 Speaker 1: to be transformed by it. Today we'll hear the wisdom 17 00:01:04,959 --> 00:01:08,560 Speaker 1: that doctor Kerr has gathered from indigenous traditions, and we'll 18 00:01:08,560 --> 00:01:11,400 Speaker 1: hear about her own powerful experiences guiding others through those 19 00:01:11,440 --> 00:01:14,280 Speaker 1: most precious moments at the end of life. This interview 20 00:01:14,280 --> 00:01:17,160 Speaker 1: is especially important to me as a filmmaker and a storyteller. 21 00:01:17,160 --> 00:01:20,880 Speaker 1: I've always been fascinated by archetypes, mythic structures, and the 22 00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:24,400 Speaker 1: narrative shape of human experience. The way we tell stories 23 00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:30,440 Speaker 1: of loss, change and rebirth mirrors the deepest process of 24 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:34,520 Speaker 1: transformation in our own lives. And so yeah, I'm completely 25 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:38,040 Speaker 1: captivated by her unique viewpoint. One of the most fascinating 26 00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:41,480 Speaker 1: parts of our discussion how the process of dying, grieving, 27 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:46,479 Speaker 1: and trauma recovery. It follows the same structure as great 28 00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:50,040 Speaker 1: mythic stories. Doctor Kerr speaks about death and transformation in 29 00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:53,840 Speaker 1: the language of liminality. That's the space between worlds, the 30 00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:57,200 Speaker 1: threshold of transition, the dissolution of the old self before 31 00:01:57,200 --> 00:02:00,160 Speaker 1: the emergence of something new. In fact, she discribed as 32 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:02,120 Speaker 1: one of the final stages of dying as the dark 33 00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:04,320 Speaker 1: knight of the soul, which is a term that we 34 00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:07,919 Speaker 1: use often in writing that describes that sacred and necessary 35 00:02:07,960 --> 00:02:10,240 Speaker 1: passage for the main character, that critical part of a 36 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:13,320 Speaker 1: story's plot structure, one that mirrors the rights found in 37 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:17,280 Speaker 1: ancient cultures and mythologies. So yeah, I was fascinated to 38 00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:20,480 Speaker 1: hear how her experience in bringing ritual to those facing 39 00:02:20,520 --> 00:02:24,760 Speaker 1: death speaks to these same universal phrases that I use 40 00:02:25,040 --> 00:02:28,840 Speaker 1: in my writing all the time, about the journey, the departure, 41 00:02:29,040 --> 00:02:32,760 Speaker 1: the ordeal, the transformation, and the return. If you've ever 42 00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:35,960 Speaker 1: struggled with lost, transition or the fear of the unknown, 43 00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:41,280 Speaker 1: this conversation will resonate deeply. Doctor Kerr's perspective invites us 44 00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:43,880 Speaker 1: to see death not as an ending, but as an 45 00:02:43,880 --> 00:02:47,320 Speaker 1: initiation to something greater. So take a deep breath, settle in, 46 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:51,440 Speaker 1: and join us as we explore the sacred space between life, death, 47 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:55,960 Speaker 1: and rebirth with doctor Sarah Kerr. Here, I'm alive again, 48 00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:04,440 Speaker 1: Doctor Sarah Kerr, Welcome to alive again. 49 00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:06,200 Speaker 2: Thanks Dan, it's wonderful to be here. 50 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:10,560 Speaker 1: I'd like to start just asking you about your work 51 00:03:10,639 --> 00:03:14,400 Speaker 1: as a death dula, guiding people through life's most profound transition, 52 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:16,280 Speaker 1: and I guess I just want to know sort of 53 00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:18,400 Speaker 1: what inspired you to pursue this path. Can you tell 54 00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:20,080 Speaker 1: us a little bit about your beginnings? 55 00:03:20,360 --> 00:03:24,200 Speaker 2: Well, I come to this from many different places. A 56 00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:26,839 Speaker 2: huge one was that when I was about thirty five, 57 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:29,600 Speaker 2: my dad had a stroke. He'd been very healthy and hearty, 58 00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:32,959 Speaker 2: and he had a very debilitating stroke and he didn't die, 59 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:34,960 Speaker 2: but it was a kind of social death. He never 60 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:37,840 Speaker 2: left an institution after that, and that was my first 61 00:03:37,880 --> 00:03:41,080 Speaker 2: real experience with mortality. I'm sorry, lucky that until that 62 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:43,200 Speaker 2: point in my life, I'd never really had anyone really 63 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:46,640 Speaker 2: close to me other than grandparents die or struggle with this. 64 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:51,320 Speaker 2: So that was an incredible epiphany. And I really had 65 00:03:51,320 --> 00:03:54,280 Speaker 2: this experience of a feeling let down and betrayed by 66 00:03:54,280 --> 00:03:56,800 Speaker 2: my culture that I had never No one had ever 67 00:03:56,800 --> 00:03:58,200 Speaker 2: told me that I should know how to deal with 68 00:03:58,240 --> 00:04:01,280 Speaker 2: this because it was a normal and natural part of life. 69 00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:07,680 Speaker 2: So once I've recovered from my own grief, I look 70 00:04:07,760 --> 00:04:09,920 Speaker 2: to how I could meet this in the future because 71 00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:12,680 Speaker 2: it was coming. So part of it was personal. My 72 00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:19,200 Speaker 2: academic training is in ritual work and exploring rituals of transformation, 73 00:04:19,360 --> 00:04:22,279 Speaker 2: so that really fits in. And I've also been really 74 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:26,120 Speaker 2: deeply attuned to energy all my life. The energetic dynamic 75 00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:28,920 Speaker 2: is as real to me as rocks, so I'm really 76 00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:32,839 Speaker 2: perceptive and attuned to those, and this all seems to 77 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:35,160 Speaker 2: loop all those together. I think those are probably the 78 00:04:35,200 --> 00:04:37,000 Speaker 2: three main threads of that origin. 79 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:39,520 Speaker 1: And how would you describe what you do now. A 80 00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:41,560 Speaker 1: lot of our listeners aren't familiar with the idea of 81 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:42,239 Speaker 1: a death dulla. 82 00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:45,760 Speaker 2: Death dulas have been in this iteration probably maybe ten 83 00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:48,200 Speaker 2: or twelve years we've been active in the world, but 84 00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:50,880 Speaker 2: of course there's a whole history of people before that. 85 00:04:51,279 --> 00:04:55,840 Speaker 2: Death dulas care for dying and grieving people. They're lay people, 86 00:04:56,040 --> 00:05:00,320 Speaker 2: not medical practitioners, not clergy, not funeral service. Those are 87 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:03,200 Speaker 2: the kind of core aspects that work with death and dying. 88 00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:08,760 Speaker 2: And the real key criteria of death dulas is that 89 00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:11,200 Speaker 2: we start working with someone before the death, and we 90 00:05:11,279 --> 00:05:14,560 Speaker 2: continue after the death and often up to the funeral. 91 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:17,960 Speaker 2: So what usually happens is medical care carry someone to 92 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:20,800 Speaker 2: the death and then there's kind of a gap and 93 00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:27,240 Speaker 2: people in this moment of incredibly ripe with transformation and energy, 94 00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:30,880 Speaker 2: they're dropped, and then a couple of days later a 95 00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:33,599 Speaker 2: funeral service kicks in. Then that's I mean, funeral services 96 00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:36,200 Speaker 2: can be amazing, but that's also a commercial venture, and 97 00:05:36,279 --> 00:05:39,680 Speaker 2: so where's the soul care in between? And so death 98 00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:43,680 Speaker 2: Duela's bridge that gap, and death Doula's common all shapes 99 00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:47,159 Speaker 2: and forms and approaches. My work, I really call myself 100 00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:49,920 Speaker 2: a sacred death care guide. So I'm working with the 101 00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:53,240 Speaker 2: soul's journey through that other death duelas work with different 102 00:05:53,480 --> 00:05:55,479 Speaker 2: aspects of the process. 103 00:05:55,520 --> 00:06:00,159 Speaker 1: So fascinating. It's interesting that I'm sure indigenous culture and 104 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:06,160 Speaker 1: primal cultures throughout time in human history have had that position, 105 00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:09,719 Speaker 1: if you will, or it had that functionality within their culture. 106 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:12,120 Speaker 1: And we can get into this more later in the conversation, 107 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:16,040 Speaker 1: but it seems to me that gap that you speak of. 108 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:19,760 Speaker 1: I mean, I wonder if one hundred years ago or 109 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:21,960 Speaker 1: one hundred and fifty years ago, it would have been 110 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:26,039 Speaker 1: myself as a child who would have to clean and 111 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:29,960 Speaker 1: dress the body of my grandparent who had died bury 112 00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:34,000 Speaker 1: them ourselves. And in modern culture, we're so far removed 113 00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:37,160 Speaker 1: from that and every instance of death and every instinct 114 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:40,240 Speaker 1: about death, and it seems to be so sterilized and 115 00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:42,000 Speaker 1: people often die alone. I know, I'm hitting it with 116 00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:44,960 Speaker 1: a lot of stuff, but it just seems I wonder, 117 00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:48,840 Speaker 1: what about our culture led us to this point? Big question, 118 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:50,159 Speaker 1: But you know, let us to this point where we 119 00:06:50,200 --> 00:06:52,200 Speaker 1: have this sort of fear of death to the point 120 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:53,840 Speaker 1: of I mean, sure, fear of death that might be 121 00:06:53,839 --> 00:06:57,760 Speaker 1: a human innate thing, but to the point of of us, 122 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:01,640 Speaker 1: you know, being fascinated with you and not necessarily having 123 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:04,800 Speaker 1: a reverence for our elders. And can you talk a 124 00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:06,839 Speaker 1: little bit about where you think some of this fear 125 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:07,400 Speaker 1: comes from. 126 00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:10,360 Speaker 2: Well, say that it's not only a fascination with youth 127 00:07:10,720 --> 00:07:13,160 Speaker 2: that reflects our fear of death. I think it's our 128 00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:19,880 Speaker 2: fixation on death on screen that doesn't touch us. So 129 00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:23,920 Speaker 2: the amount of death we see in populic culture is enormous, 130 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:26,720 Speaker 2: but I think that's in some way a way to 131 00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:28,720 Speaker 2: try and process it. But we don't have the tools 132 00:07:28,760 --> 00:07:30,480 Speaker 2: to process it in ourselves, so I think that's part 133 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:33,400 Speaker 2: of it. But back to your question many questions in there. 134 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:36,280 Speaker 2: You talked about caring for the body at home. Of 135 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:38,920 Speaker 2: course that would have been all our ancestors, no matter 136 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:42,760 Speaker 2: who we are, through time, have done that, and recently 137 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:47,800 Speaker 2: that's really been sanitized out in the auspices of support 138 00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:50,960 Speaker 2: and service, but it doesn't really often serve us. So 139 00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:54,480 Speaker 2: we've separated from the physical process of dying. But I 140 00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:57,000 Speaker 2: think to the question of fear, I think it's almost 141 00:07:57,000 --> 00:07:59,679 Speaker 2: more that we've separated from the spiritual process of dying. 142 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:03,720 Speaker 2: And I really differentiate spiritual and religious. We have in 143 00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:07,320 Speaker 2: us all a soul, a spirit, and essence of consciousness 144 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:10,520 Speaker 2: and whatever word works for you. But there's some aspect 145 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:14,240 Speaker 2: of that is not our body. And in the modern 146 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:16,640 Speaker 2: approach to life and the modern approach to death, we 147 00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:19,520 Speaker 2: don't validate that. We don't have a space for it, 148 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:22,960 Speaker 2: we don't have tools and practices for working with it, 149 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:27,560 Speaker 2: we don't have language about it. So in the modern 150 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:30,960 Speaker 2: Western logic, you die, you take your last breath, and 151 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:34,400 Speaker 2: that's it. You cease to exist. End of story period. 152 00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:38,920 Speaker 2: But I'm sure many of your listeners will know, and 153 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:41,080 Speaker 2: many people I talked to all the time. Of course, 154 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:43,719 Speaker 2: this is just part of the human experience. We experience 155 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:47,280 Speaker 2: things either there are near death experiences or after death 156 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:52,520 Speaker 2: communication or that whole field of trans personal experiences. There 157 00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:56,200 Speaker 2: is something else we don't probably can't say exactly what 158 00:08:56,240 --> 00:08:58,360 Speaker 2: it is, but there's something else. And so because we 159 00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:03,600 Speaker 2: approach death as a finality, I cease to exist. It 160 00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:09,080 Speaker 2: is terrifying because existing in community is what it means 161 00:09:09,080 --> 00:09:12,439 Speaker 2: to be a human person, and we essentially get exiled, 162 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:16,760 Speaker 2: excommunicated from death. So we don't know what it is 163 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:19,720 Speaker 2: in its soul version. And when we don't know what 164 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:21,439 Speaker 2: things are, we don't know how to approach them, and 165 00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:23,760 Speaker 2: we can't learn about them, and they become scary, so 166 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:24,640 Speaker 2: we push them away. 167 00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:28,880 Speaker 1: And your practice integrates contemporary ritual healing with like insights 168 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:32,600 Speaker 1: from indigenous cultures. Right, can you talk a little bit 169 00:09:32,600 --> 00:09:34,840 Speaker 1: about what you've been able to bring a vert to 170 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:37,720 Speaker 1: our culture from things you've studied and learned, you know, 171 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:38,560 Speaker 1: cross culturally. 172 00:09:39,040 --> 00:09:43,760 Speaker 2: I've studied with a number of indigenous healers and shamanic teachers, 173 00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:47,600 Speaker 2: but I've also done a lot of research into the 174 00:09:47,679 --> 00:09:55,199 Speaker 2: deep archetypal principles of ritual healing, and particularly this arc 175 00:09:55,320 --> 00:09:59,400 Speaker 2: type of death and loss, which is a death of 176 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:03,000 Speaker 2: an old way of being, a transitional, liminal in between zone, 177 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:05,480 Speaker 2: and a birth of a new way of being. That's 178 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:09,160 Speaker 2: what initiation is, death of the old, transformation and birth 179 00:10:09,160 --> 00:10:15,480 Speaker 2: of the new. And so that archetypal structure underlies all 180 00:10:15,559 --> 00:10:20,760 Speaker 2: the traditions, traditional indigenous practices, contemporary religious practices, if they're 181 00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:24,920 Speaker 2: attuned in that way, are all about supporting people through 182 00:10:24,920 --> 00:10:28,680 Speaker 2: that journey. So my interest is really in kind of 183 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:34,319 Speaker 2: reaching back not two existing or historic practices, but through 184 00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:40,559 Speaker 2: them into the archetypal universal. It's almost the spiritual DNA 185 00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:47,000 Speaker 2: and developing new rituals that don't use other communities language 186 00:10:47,080 --> 00:10:51,120 Speaker 2: or images or songs or rituals, but apply some of 187 00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:55,320 Speaker 2: the same ritual principles, and then develop rituals that work 188 00:10:55,360 --> 00:10:57,920 Speaker 2: for people who live in cities and have cars and 189 00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:00,720 Speaker 2: cell pop And we do them around living room tables 190 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:03,760 Speaker 2: with a candle and it's all in English, and my 191 00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:06,960 Speaker 2: grandmother would not be surprised by it. But it touches 192 00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:12,760 Speaker 2: the same deep human spiritual dynamics and maybe even more 193 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:14,440 Speaker 2: than human spiritual dynamics. 194 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:17,880 Speaker 1: Could you share a few stories of, you know, just 195 00:11:17,960 --> 00:11:20,880 Speaker 1: experiences that you've had while working with folks who are 196 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:23,880 Speaker 1: you know, terminal patients, or what that transition looks like, 197 00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:26,200 Speaker 1: what that liminal state looks like as you're approaching the 198 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:27,640 Speaker 1: threshold of death and even after. 199 00:11:28,280 --> 00:11:32,640 Speaker 2: So I work with I mean now I mostly train people, 200 00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:34,559 Speaker 2: but I do sometimes work with people still. But in 201 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:39,480 Speaker 2: my practice time, my work is with people leading up 202 00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:43,160 Speaker 2: to death, at death, after death, and in grief, and 203 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:45,880 Speaker 2: so there are different ritual practices for each of those. 204 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:50,000 Speaker 2: The dying person is going through one transformation where they're 205 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:53,760 Speaker 2: leaving their body, crossing a liminal zone and entering what 206 00:11:53,800 --> 00:11:56,360 Speaker 2: I call the village of the ancestors. The living are 207 00:11:56,400 --> 00:12:00,280 Speaker 2: going through another transition where they're a part of them dying. 208 00:12:00,280 --> 00:12:02,720 Speaker 2: When someone you love dies, part of you dies, and 209 00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:06,360 Speaker 2: you need to go through transition time so a new 210 00:12:06,440 --> 00:12:09,000 Speaker 2: you can be born to see you without those So 211 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:11,960 Speaker 2: there are all sorts of different rituals that we use 212 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:14,960 Speaker 2: in different aspects of that. I guess one that I'll 213 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:18,319 Speaker 2: just share. You can go anywhere along that spectrum, sure, 214 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:21,120 Speaker 2: but one that's really beautiful and powerful is a ritual 215 00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:25,199 Speaker 2: I do at deathbeds. I'm not very often holding vigil 216 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:27,720 Speaker 2: at deathbeds with people. I don't sit for those hours 217 00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:30,360 Speaker 2: and hours. I'm on the phone. I'm tracking it, but 218 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:32,839 Speaker 2: I'm not there. But they call me when the person dies. 219 00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:37,400 Speaker 2: And that's really that moment when people get dropped by 220 00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:39,520 Speaker 2: one system. I mean, nurses and doctors and the palliat 221 00:12:39,559 --> 00:12:43,000 Speaker 2: of care system are fantastic. They say take the time 222 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:45,320 Speaker 2: you need and then we'll call a funeral home. But people, 223 00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:48,600 Speaker 2: even if you're expecting the death, people are kind of 224 00:12:48,640 --> 00:12:51,319 Speaker 2: blown open and they don't know what they need. So 225 00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:53,560 Speaker 2: that's what a ritual is. I call myself clergy for 226 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:59,800 Speaker 2: the unchurched well, because people need guidance, they want spiritual teachings, 227 00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:03,880 Speaker 2: they want spiritual community, they want spiritual insights what's happening 228 00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:08,240 Speaker 2: as I die, but without a particular sort of liturgy 229 00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:14,000 Speaker 2: or prayer system or religious practice. So I'll come often. 230 00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:15,880 Speaker 2: I'll walk into the room, might be three in the morning, 231 00:13:16,280 --> 00:13:20,240 Speaker 2: and people are kind of just in all stages of 232 00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:26,160 Speaker 2: grief and disbelief and disorientation often and so clearing and calming. 233 00:13:26,280 --> 00:13:27,679 Speaker 2: I walk in through and you can just see people's 234 00:13:27,679 --> 00:13:31,800 Speaker 2: shoulders drop. Someone is going to drive this bus. And 235 00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:34,840 Speaker 2: so we'll do a ritual that probably takes depending on 236 00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:37,080 Speaker 2: what the family is, it might take between two and 237 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:42,800 Speaker 2: five hours. And it's helping people adjust to the fact 238 00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:45,240 Speaker 2: that the person is dead. You knew they were dying, 239 00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:47,640 Speaker 2: You've seen them die. There's a dead body in front 240 00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:51,400 Speaker 2: of you, but our brains do not absorb that information 241 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:55,800 Speaker 2: as fast as it happens. So we slow things down. 242 00:13:56,080 --> 00:13:59,320 Speaker 2: We slow things down, We move all the trita set 243 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:03,080 Speaker 2: of the room. We go around the circle, and each 244 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:07,679 Speaker 2: person has an opportunity to touch the person, sometimes even 245 00:14:07,679 --> 00:14:10,200 Speaker 2: that they've never touched a dead body. There's something in 246 00:14:10,240 --> 00:14:13,400 Speaker 2: your body that you learn about the truth of death 247 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:16,320 Speaker 2: when you touch a dead body. So just coming in 248 00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:19,800 Speaker 2: and being comfortable and touching the person and encouraging them 249 00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:21,680 Speaker 2: to touch the person. Sometimes it takes a while and 250 00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:25,200 Speaker 2: people slowly get to that point and maybe they can 251 00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:28,520 Speaker 2: touch their hand. We'll anoint them. Sometimes we'll give them 252 00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:31,920 Speaker 2: a blessing of goodbye, and sometimes it's putting lotion on 253 00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:37,600 Speaker 2: their hands. Sometimes it's full body washing and tending. We 254 00:14:37,640 --> 00:14:41,440 Speaker 2: call the ancestors. We imagine they're crossing a river, they're 255 00:14:41,520 --> 00:14:43,280 Speaker 2: leaving the village of the living, and they're on their 256 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 2: way to the village of the ancestors. Who do we 257 00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:47,080 Speaker 2: want to be there to meet them? So we go 258 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:49,600 Speaker 2: around the circle around the bed and people say, well, 259 00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:52,040 Speaker 2: I want Grandma and uncle Joe and his friend Pete 260 00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:56,480 Speaker 2: and the dog Fido. And as we call those names in, 261 00:14:57,720 --> 00:15:00,240 Speaker 2: it starts to deepen that field. And there's a way 262 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:05,560 Speaker 2: that people, without consciously realizing it, start to remember that 263 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:07,760 Speaker 2: other people died and they were okay, there have been 264 00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:09,760 Speaker 2: other deaths, and they're okay, this is a death and 265 00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:14,200 Speaker 2: they'll be okay. So we call the ancestors and then 266 00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:18,400 Speaker 2: I do a number of ritual practices about unwinding the chakras. 267 00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:22,520 Speaker 2: And then at some point when it's really clear that 268 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:25,760 Speaker 2: the person is ready to leave, then I have the 269 00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:28,080 Speaker 2: family start at the bottom and with their hands altogether 270 00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:32,800 Speaker 2: they comb their energy out of the body. And it's 271 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:37,440 Speaker 2: incredible and profound to watch because as you do that, 272 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:41,800 Speaker 2: it's not an intellectual thing, but the family is with 273 00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:46,360 Speaker 2: their bodies acknowledging that this person is leaving. They comb 274 00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:48,760 Speaker 2: them all out and we send them on their way, 275 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:51,160 Speaker 2: and then they anoint the top of their head with 276 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:55,440 Speaker 2: essential oil and say they're gone. And so we do 277 00:15:55,480 --> 00:15:58,160 Speaker 2: a number of rituals like that that lead up to 278 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:01,080 Speaker 2: the point of being able to pull a sheet over 279 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:05,440 Speaker 2: their head. That's a huge ritual gesture. And when that's 280 00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:09,560 Speaker 2: done by the family, it's very different than having a 281 00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:11,760 Speaker 2: funeral home come in and load a body in a 282 00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:14,960 Speaker 2: body bag and take them away, or going home while 283 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:18,040 Speaker 2: the body's still in the bed. It helps the person 284 00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:20,640 Speaker 2: that the soul of the living catch up, and it 285 00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:22,400 Speaker 2: also serves the soul of the person who's died. 286 00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 1: I lost a dear friend of mine and my lover, 287 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:31,920 Speaker 1: Patrice burnside back. It was twenty almost thirty years ago now, 288 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:34,520 Speaker 1: but we were living together for many years, and when 289 00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:36,320 Speaker 1: she passed it was sudden. It was a car accident, 290 00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:40,680 Speaker 1: and I remember, being a student of anthropology. I remember thinking, God, 291 00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:43,000 Speaker 1: I wish I had some rituals. I wish I had 292 00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:46,160 Speaker 1: some things to do with the community to sort of, 293 00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:51,760 Speaker 1: you know, to as you say, say goodbye. And it 294 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:54,680 Speaker 1: was really lacking. It was very pronounced how lacking it was. 295 00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:58,560 Speaker 1: I read a quote of yours ritual is energy medicine 296 00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:02,960 Speaker 1: for the collective body. I love that. I think that 297 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:06,720 Speaker 1: that's and I guess my question here is really just 298 00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:08,919 Speaker 1: to have you expand on that more. But do you 299 00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:14,480 Speaker 1: see this becoming? Are people waking up in Western society 300 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:17,560 Speaker 1: to some of these practices or some of these means 301 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:19,800 Speaker 1: by which to better understand death, or do you think 302 00:17:19,840 --> 00:17:22,560 Speaker 1: that people are still just sort of dealing with their 303 00:17:22,600 --> 00:17:27,840 Speaker 1: own trauma of the loss and the grieving without any direction, 304 00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:29,800 Speaker 1: like is this going to take hold? 305 00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:32,639 Speaker 2: I love that you pulled out that quote. That was 306 00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:34,720 Speaker 2: a direct quote and a dream and a dream and 307 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:37,720 Speaker 2: that was a direct teaching at the tray. So that's 308 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:40,439 Speaker 2: the appropriate citation. Is the dream givers gave me that 309 00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:42,520 Speaker 2: quote came through my mouth, but it came from them. 310 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:42,880 Speaker 1: Wow. 311 00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:48,719 Speaker 2: There is an enormous growth of interest in this. Partially 312 00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:53,040 Speaker 2: it's baby boomers who had their children with midwives and 313 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:55,440 Speaker 2: have all the way through their life cycle said I 314 00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:58,720 Speaker 2: don't want to do this the same way. Partly it's 315 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:05,320 Speaker 2: that we are just culturally so flooded by in a 316 00:18:05,359 --> 00:18:08,480 Speaker 2: way meaninglessness that people are starting to look for meaning 317 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:11,439 Speaker 2: and it's becoming more and more precious. I think the 318 00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:15,240 Speaker 2: psychedelic revolution is having an enormous impact on this. People 319 00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:18,920 Speaker 2: suddenly are able to say in public company, while I 320 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:20,520 Speaker 2: went on this journey and I saw these things, and 321 00:18:20,560 --> 00:18:23,199 Speaker 2: I learned these things from these teachers, that other world 322 00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:27,320 Speaker 2: is getting more validity and more reality. And I think 323 00:18:27,359 --> 00:18:30,119 Speaker 2: what's exciting about this work is that it's led not 324 00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:35,120 Speaker 2: by clients and families. People don't say, oh, I want 325 00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:38,360 Speaker 2: a death tool. What happens is there's this whole body 326 00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:41,680 Speaker 2: of people. I call them people who embody the archtype 327 00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:44,240 Speaker 2: of the death walker. You said early on there are 328 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:47,560 Speaker 2: people in cultures all over the world who have always 329 00:18:48,280 --> 00:18:53,600 Speaker 2: occupied this cultural space. We don't have a socially sanctioned 330 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:55,880 Speaker 2: space for someone to stand in if those are their 331 00:18:55,880 --> 00:18:59,439 Speaker 2: gifts and those people feel I know death can be 332 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:02,600 Speaker 2: done differently. I know there's something on the other side. 333 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:05,399 Speaker 2: I know there's a spiritual aspect to this. It doesn't 334 00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:07,080 Speaker 2: have to be as hard as it is. So that's 335 00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:10,879 Speaker 2: who's leading it. That's who's leading it. And families and 336 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:14,359 Speaker 2: dying people who are in a different space of a 337 00:19:14,359 --> 00:19:17,520 Speaker 2: little more confusion, they're joining on, but it's really being 338 00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:18,760 Speaker 2: led by the practitioners. 339 00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:23,640 Speaker 1: You also wrote, I love this one. Healing is about 340 00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:25,800 Speaker 1: integrating what is happening to you so that you can 341 00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:28,439 Speaker 1: grow into the person that the affliction is asking you 342 00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:33,400 Speaker 1: to become. That is our show in a nutshell, every 343 00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:36,960 Speaker 1: single story that we not everyone, some of them there's 344 00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:39,840 Speaker 1: still a lot of trauma, but most of the folks 345 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:42,600 Speaker 1: that we talk to who have gone through this threshold 346 00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:47,440 Speaker 1: and even crossed over and then come back or even lost, 347 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:49,520 Speaker 1: they have all gone through a liminal state, even if 348 00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:52,160 Speaker 1: it's not an actual crossing of the threshold into death 349 00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:54,160 Speaker 1: and back. But if they've lost the ability to walk 350 00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:57,679 Speaker 1: or to talk, they've lost an old identity of a 351 00:19:57,720 --> 00:19:59,639 Speaker 1: previous version of themselves is dead and they have to 352 00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:01,480 Speaker 1: rebuild into a new one. And every single one of 353 00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:04,600 Speaker 1: them say, I would not trade this, I would not 354 00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:07,240 Speaker 1: go back, because what I have become as a result 355 00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:09,919 Speaker 1: of having to deal with this adversity has made me 356 00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:14,240 Speaker 1: into something amazing. And I guess my question is I'll 357 00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:17,119 Speaker 1: just read this, but it's so yeah. This is a 358 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:19,400 Speaker 1: reoccurring theme from the point of view of so many 359 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:21,720 Speaker 1: that have shared their stories with us, and I'm wondering 360 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:24,159 Speaker 1: if you can elaborate on how this process of integration 361 00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:27,520 Speaker 1: and growth occurs, especially in the face of profound loss. 362 00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:31,080 Speaker 1: How can embracing this perspective transform suffering into a journey 363 00:20:31,119 --> 00:20:32,760 Speaker 1: of self discovery and healing. 364 00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:36,280 Speaker 2: I want to speak to your experience that everyone you've 365 00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:38,960 Speaker 2: talked to has said this has been a profound transformative moment. 366 00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:41,240 Speaker 2: I wouldn't trade it. And I also want to name 367 00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:43,760 Speaker 2: that our homeless shelters and ad dictionary rehab centers are 368 00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:47,480 Speaker 2: full of people who had terrible, incredible, awful things happened 369 00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:49,639 Speaker 2: to them and they didn't have the support to have 370 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:52,960 Speaker 2: that transformative experience. So it doesn't happen unless you have 371 00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:56,120 Speaker 2: both the internal resources which come from the support you've 372 00:20:56,119 --> 00:20:59,720 Speaker 2: had through your life, and the external resources when it happens. 373 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:03,960 Speaker 2: So one of the other things I really believe and 374 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:10,159 Speaker 2: say often is that trauma met well is initiation. Initiation 375 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:14,400 Speaker 2: met poorly is trauma. And I want to qualify that 376 00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:16,520 Speaker 2: well and poorly doesn't mean the person's doing a good 377 00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:21,800 Speaker 2: job or not. It's not about their behavior or their response. 378 00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:25,280 Speaker 2: It's about how does the community hold them sure. 379 00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:26,240 Speaker 3: That that. 380 00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:33,080 Speaker 2: Traumatic experiences death, loss, torture, breast cancer was my own 381 00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:37,720 Speaker 2: experience of this. Have the opportunity to be incredibly transformative, 382 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:40,640 Speaker 2: but if we don't have the support, they also can 383 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:43,600 Speaker 2: break us. And so it's I'm what I'm really curious 384 00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:46,159 Speaker 2: about are what are the ritual practices, what are the 385 00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:51,040 Speaker 2: cultural contexts that support people to move through them and find, 386 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:54,120 Speaker 2: you know, to go be the caterpillar who goes into 387 00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:58,600 Speaker 2: the cocoon, comes undone to their old self and emerges 388 00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:04,439 Speaker 2: as a butterfly. Tensional, well held, focused, structured ritual is 389 00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:08,760 Speaker 2: energy medicine for the collective body. It changes the structure 390 00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:12,040 Speaker 2: of the space, It changes the state of our consciousness. 391 00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:18,760 Speaker 2: It creates that that cocoon, that al chemical vessel where 392 00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:22,440 Speaker 2: we can come undone and be rebuilt. So my practice 393 00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:25,879 Speaker 2: has been about using ritual for that, and I do 394 00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:29,119 Speaker 2: the ritual work with families, but I also do a 395 00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:32,359 Speaker 2: series of in person workshops which are for anybody in 396 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:35,200 Speaker 2: any stage of dying or not dying, or serving dying people, 397 00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:40,880 Speaker 2: which are related to systemic family constellations and touch the 398 00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:44,440 Speaker 2: most incredible space. And I really feel like it has 399 00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:48,000 Speaker 2: potential to be a parallel to psychedelic medicine in terms 400 00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:51,399 Speaker 2: of supporting people to meet death, particularly because psychedelics are 401 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:54,880 Speaker 2: done individually, go on your journey. This work that I'm doing, 402 00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:57,240 Speaker 2: you can do as a community, and people kind of 403 00:22:57,240 --> 00:23:00,240 Speaker 2: have a shared experience of entering the liminal together, which 404 00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:04,000 Speaker 2: is our ancestry, a ritual practice is together to prepare 405 00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:07,280 Speaker 2: for that. So I'm so excited about what psychedelics are 406 00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:08,919 Speaker 2: doing to the culture to make space for this kind 407 00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:12,760 Speaker 2: of work. And there are other ways to approach it 408 00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:15,040 Speaker 2: that don't need to be psychedelics, that can get us 409 00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:16,520 Speaker 2: incredible places. 410 00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:19,840 Speaker 1: One hundred percent agree. I am you know, as a 411 00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:22,880 Speaker 1: director and a filmmaker, I work with actors a lot, 412 00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:26,280 Speaker 1: and they, you know, they have to take on different roles, 413 00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:28,280 Speaker 1: and it seems like the work always comes back to 414 00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:31,200 Speaker 1: this idea that came from an anthropological study or came 415 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:34,440 Speaker 1: from an anthropological thought about belonging. We are you know, 416 00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:38,040 Speaker 1: we are not individuals. We are part of a body. 417 00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:42,480 Speaker 1: And there's this idea that I like to talk to 418 00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:45,360 Speaker 1: my actors about, which is the idea that the need 419 00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:50,240 Speaker 1: to belong is perhaps more powerful than the need to 420 00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:57,720 Speaker 1: preserve life or the need to survive. And so I'm 421 00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:00,320 Speaker 1: so glad to hear you talking about that, because you know, 422 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:01,840 Speaker 1: you get the picture of like, oh, this is a 423 00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:04,439 Speaker 1: person who's dying, and there again they're isolated in their 424 00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:08,919 Speaker 1: experience of whatever liminal state they're hitting or whatever transformation 425 00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:12,640 Speaker 1: they're going through as they're approaching this next crossing over. 426 00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:17,399 Speaker 1: But it's really about the community. It's really about everybody involved. 427 00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:21,920 Speaker 1: And that is like the light bulb in my mind 428 00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:24,560 Speaker 1: of like what is missing perhaps with a lot of 429 00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:27,800 Speaker 1: these sterile environments where someone dies in their sleep without 430 00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:28,800 Speaker 1: their family nearby. 431 00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:31,760 Speaker 2: And yes, there's the physical presence of someone around the 432 00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:34,360 Speaker 2: dying person, but I don't think that is as significant 433 00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:38,200 Speaker 2: as the cultural picture we have, which is that when 434 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:41,639 Speaker 2: you are dead, you are gone, You no longer belong, 435 00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:45,399 Speaker 2: There is no place for you. You don't have a 436 00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:48,400 Speaker 2: place in this culture because we don't have an ancestral 437 00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:53,159 Speaker 2: connection practice. We don't have and I say we in 438 00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:56,159 Speaker 2: the broad sense certainly my experience, but in most of 439 00:24:56,320 --> 00:25:00,439 Speaker 2: dominant culture, we don't have ways of saying you are 440 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:04,879 Speaker 2: still here. We don't have a role for ancestors. The 441 00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:08,679 Speaker 2: death is just one more stage on the developmental journey. 442 00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:11,320 Speaker 2: You're born, you become a child, you become an adult, 443 00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:13,920 Speaker 2: you get married to all these things, all these developmental stages. 444 00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:16,800 Speaker 2: Death is another one, no matter where in life it happens, 445 00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:21,040 Speaker 2: and it's the transition, the initiation where someone becomes an ancestor, 446 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:25,159 Speaker 2: ancestors of responsibilities, ancestors of roles, ancestors of a place 447 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:29,440 Speaker 2: in the culture. So I so strongly believe that the reason, 448 00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:33,080 Speaker 2: or one of the main reasons we are so terrified 449 00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:36,439 Speaker 2: of death personally as we face it for ourselves is 450 00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:40,439 Speaker 2: it is complete annihilation. It is excommunication, it is you 451 00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:43,639 Speaker 2: know what you say, it is. It is more significant 452 00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:46,680 Speaker 2: than life. That's why it's more of an In traditional cultures, 453 00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:50,080 Speaker 2: it was a worse punishment to exile someone that to 454 00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:54,720 Speaker 2: kill them, because to be separated. They say, you know, 455 00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:58,879 Speaker 2: are no longer banishment banishment, all right, And that's what 456 00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:01,400 Speaker 2: we do with our dead, We banish them. 457 00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:01,879 Speaker 1: Hmm. 458 00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:06,680 Speaker 2: It's the worst punishment, solitary confinement, excommunication. 459 00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:10,440 Speaker 1: Can you share some I guess some stories, like things 460 00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:14,159 Speaker 1: that you've observed specifically about the human capacity for resilien 461 00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:17,280 Speaker 1: it's the human capacity to have an AHA moment as 462 00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:19,119 Speaker 1: they're approaching the inevitable. 463 00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:25,600 Speaker 2: The human capacity for resilience and AHA is directly related 464 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:27,879 Speaker 2: to our nervous system because we live in bodies, and 465 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:34,679 Speaker 2: nervous systems have windows of tolerance. And when when a 466 00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:38,440 Speaker 2: death happens, whether it's as in your experience, a sudden death, 467 00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:41,440 Speaker 2: or whether it's a death that is completely expected through 468 00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:45,280 Speaker 2: illness and aging, there is still a way that very 469 00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:49,360 Speaker 2: often it kind of blows our circuitry. It's more than 470 00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:52,440 Speaker 2: we can handle. We get thrown out of our capacity 471 00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:57,040 Speaker 2: to regulate, and we can't have epiphanies if we're unregulated. 472 00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:03,640 Speaker 2: So the work I do is about narrowing down what's happening, 473 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:08,600 Speaker 2: slowing it down, spending five hours at the bedside, just 474 00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:12,280 Speaker 2: getting people caught up to the fact that they're going 475 00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:14,000 Speaker 2: to pull a sheet over the head. Then we have 476 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:19,760 Speaker 2: eight more rituals after that. But so we titrate the 477 00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:23,120 Speaker 2: integration of the experience instead of saying someone, here's this 478 00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:29,800 Speaker 2: massive emotional, energetic dynamic that we're asking you to integrate. 479 00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:32,960 Speaker 2: We can't. Our systems can't handle it. But if you say, okay, 480 00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:35,679 Speaker 2: right now, we're just gonna sit around and call the 481 00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:40,520 Speaker 2: ancestors and put lotion on their hands, just really name 482 00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:45,840 Speaker 2: that they are not here and learn somatically that they're 483 00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:48,240 Speaker 2: not here, and then we're going to do something else, 484 00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:50,119 Speaker 2: and then we're going to do something else. And then 485 00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:52,080 Speaker 2: if I've done my job right, by the time we 486 00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:54,240 Speaker 2: get to the funeral, which is a week later, people 487 00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:59,119 Speaker 2: have had so much structured space to integrate that they 488 00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:02,760 Speaker 2: can receive what the funeral offers. It's that that little 489 00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:06,919 Speaker 2: window between death and the funeral is a really intense 490 00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:10,320 Speaker 2: version of that alchemical vessel, the cocoon. That is when 491 00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:14,199 Speaker 2: people need incredible support and mostly people get nothing. So 492 00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:19,000 Speaker 2: our capacity to have these enlightened experiences is based on 493 00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:20,919 Speaker 2: our ability to regulate, based on the support we have 494 00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:25,080 Speaker 2: all of that because we cannot hold our own container 495 00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:27,840 Speaker 2: while we're going through those transformative experiences. We need a 496 00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:30,800 Speaker 2: container help for us. That's the cocoon. 497 00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:37,400 Speaker 1: The cocoon makes complete sense again. I wish, I hope 498 00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:39,600 Speaker 1: I can foster those for myself in the future with 499 00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:44,320 Speaker 1: what's coming. You know, I'm curious one of the most 500 00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:47,840 Speaker 1: transformative lessons that you've learned in your personal experiences. I'm 501 00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:50,200 Speaker 1: curious about aha moments that you've had along the way 502 00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:52,560 Speaker 1: that have shaped your practice and have shaped your philosophy. 503 00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:55,320 Speaker 1: Have there been any just real lightning bolts for you 504 00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:58,480 Speaker 1: in your own journey? 505 00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:04,800 Speaker 2: You know, there have in so many experiences. I don't 506 00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:08,120 Speaker 2: think of them like capaw, here's the moment. It's a 507 00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:15,720 Speaker 2: much different transformation now, it doesn't. I think that's a 508 00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:18,719 Speaker 2: little bit of a Western Here you go, here's magical apologies. 509 00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:21,800 Speaker 2: It's fine. I mean, that's what it'd be fun sometimes 510 00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:23,040 Speaker 2: and sometimes people have those. 511 00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:26,080 Speaker 1: But the storyteller and me is drawn to. 512 00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:30,280 Speaker 2: And and in these experiences, all the rituals are on 513 00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:32,280 Speaker 2: the arc of a story. We every ritual leads to 514 00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:33,920 Speaker 2: that moment and comes down from that moment, and you 515 00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:35,920 Speaker 2: need to point and a point and a point. But 516 00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:40,360 Speaker 2: the big thing is more a way that I just 517 00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:45,160 Speaker 2: so deeply know and trust this process. And that's what 518 00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:48,320 Speaker 2: I teach my students that when you can come into 519 00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:55,200 Speaker 2: a really profound, embodied relationship with these energetic dynamics this 520 00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:59,080 Speaker 2: architecture of death and loss. When we walk into the 521 00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:00,880 Speaker 2: room with clients, we we serve as a kind of 522 00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:04,480 Speaker 2: tuning fork. You bring that knowing with you and it 523 00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:08,080 Speaker 2: changes the shape of the space. So I've i mean, 524 00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:10,680 Speaker 2: the some of the things about this too, And this 525 00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:14,200 Speaker 2: is the way why it's also not the big Kapa moments. Sometimes, 526 00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:18,040 Speaker 2: really mystical moments look quite small on the outside, but 527 00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:21,720 Speaker 2: they feel enormous on the inside, so they don't translate 528 00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:26,920 Speaker 2: very well to film because they're very internal. So you know, 529 00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:31,760 Speaker 2: we're carrying the body of a man who's ranched in 530 00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:34,320 Speaker 2: this land his whole life, to the rock at the 531 00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:36,720 Speaker 2: center of the land where his parents are buried. And 532 00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:40,400 Speaker 2: there are four red tailed hawks who fly with us 533 00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:44,720 Speaker 2: the whole way, circling and circling, and and a hundred 534 00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:51,440 Speaker 2: stories like that, which just building me this trust and 535 00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:57,760 Speaker 2: this this knowing that there is something else guiding this 536 00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:02,000 Speaker 2: process and to the extent which which with which I 537 00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:06,200 Speaker 2: can recognize it, lean into it and collaborate with it. 538 00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:10,880 Speaker 2: The possibility for beauty and grace is incredible. It's right 539 00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:14,320 Speaker 2: below the surface and we can touch into it, and 540 00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:17,560 Speaker 2: it's just slowing down and you know, having the ritual 541 00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:20,040 Speaker 2: and all the practices we did before they picked up 542 00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:23,239 Speaker 2: the handmade litter, and all his sons and grandsons and 543 00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:26,400 Speaker 2: nephews carried him, and the women drummed like those that 544 00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:29,000 Speaker 2: get goosebumps. They're the kind of experience where I just 545 00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:31,160 Speaker 2: I just walked through the world in a different way 546 00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:36,200 Speaker 2: because I have complete knowing that it's okay. Can you 547 00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:36,840 Speaker 2: talk about like. 548 00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:39,479 Speaker 1: Sort of some phases like I'm looking towards like the 549 00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:43,840 Speaker 1: moment of surrender, you know, being the big, big moment 550 00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:47,520 Speaker 1: of letting go, because you know, letting go of control 551 00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:49,760 Speaker 1: and going okay and having a moment of surrender seems 552 00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:51,360 Speaker 1: like it would be part of a huge part of 553 00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:56,200 Speaker 1: the process towards healing or towards the transition. Does that 554 00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:57,200 Speaker 1: make sense what I'm asking on you. 555 00:31:57,280 --> 00:31:59,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a beautiful phrase about surrender, and I read 556 00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:00,880 Speaker 2: as some I don't know whose it is that they 557 00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:04,400 Speaker 2: said surrender's not giving up, it's giving over. And I 558 00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:06,080 Speaker 2: love that. I think that's what you're speaking about, letting 559 00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:10,760 Speaker 2: go of control, letting go, that there's something bigger that's 560 00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:12,200 Speaker 2: a big part of it, that this is we're not. 561 00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:15,400 Speaker 1: In charge of this have you seen those points of 562 00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:17,320 Speaker 1: surrender with people you've worked with? 563 00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:23,760 Speaker 2: Yes, and again they grow. They're not a moment aha moment. Right, 564 00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:25,560 Speaker 2: let's just say we're starting at the deathbed with that 565 00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:28,800 Speaker 2: ritual I talked about. It's another another wonderful phrase. And 566 00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:30,880 Speaker 2: these phrases from you are a little bit like medicine, 567 00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:33,120 Speaker 2: you know. And one of the beautiful phrases that I 568 00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:36,560 Speaker 2: teach you one shared with me is unconditional cooperation with 569 00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:42,120 Speaker 2: the unavoidable. Don't fight with reality. And so that's all 570 00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:47,760 Speaker 2: the way through. That's my work with people, unconditional cooperation 571 00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:49,880 Speaker 2: because it doesn't matter if you have conditions, they're not 572 00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:52,000 Speaker 2: going to do any good. The unavoidable is the unavoidable. 573 00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:56,000 Speaker 2: So how do we come to terms with this part 574 00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:59,040 Speaker 2: and come to terms with this part and then come 575 00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:04,000 Speaker 2: to terms with this slow, slow grow And because initiation 576 00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:06,960 Speaker 2: is not an in and out, it's a leaving the old, 577 00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:09,720 Speaker 2: going down to the dark knight of the soul into 578 00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:13,160 Speaker 2: that transformative journey, going down, down, down, down down and 579 00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:16,320 Speaker 2: hitting the bottom. And you think that just it can't 580 00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:19,120 Speaker 2: get any worse, and it does stop getting worse if 581 00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:21,400 Speaker 2: you write it all the way down. Yes, you shed 582 00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:23,400 Speaker 2: and you shed, and you say goodbye, and you get 583 00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:25,440 Speaker 2: ritual support to say goodbye and shed and chad and 584 00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:27,000 Speaker 2: shed and that. If you can write it all the 585 00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:28,360 Speaker 2: way down, if you have the support to write it 586 00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:30,920 Speaker 2: all the way down, you get to a bottom point 587 00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:35,520 Speaker 2: where it does turn, and then there's a whole other 588 00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:38,400 Speaker 2: journey of coming back up again. Who am I? This 589 00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:43,200 Speaker 2: is shedding, there's a building. Who am I now? Oh 590 00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:45,640 Speaker 2: he's dead. Maybe I'll sell a family house and move 591 00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:47,720 Speaker 2: into a condo. What when do I take off my 592 00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:51,600 Speaker 2: wedding ring? All of these things? So we go up, up, up, 593 00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:55,640 Speaker 2: up up, and at some point I really do see 594 00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:58,120 Speaker 2: it like dropping below in a circle and coming back up. 595 00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:01,040 Speaker 2: We come back up the other side, and we almost 596 00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:04,280 Speaker 2: grab onto the ledge and poke our head up and 597 00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:08,359 Speaker 2: say I'm back, I'm back. And from that place of 598 00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:13,959 Speaker 2: being back with the rest of the ordinary normals quote 599 00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:17,040 Speaker 2: unquotes whatever those things are, but not in that deep, initiatory, 600 00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:21,200 Speaker 2: transformative journey, then people look back and they can say, Wow, 601 00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:24,560 Speaker 2: I am an entirely different person. The world is not 602 00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:27,120 Speaker 2: what I thought it was, limitations are not what they 603 00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:29,719 Speaker 2: thought they were. What I'm capable of, and it's a 604 00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:32,920 Speaker 2: kind of retrospective. But when you're in the journey, you 605 00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:37,600 Speaker 2: are being tossed and turned and buffeted and broken hearted, 606 00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:39,759 Speaker 2: and it's hard to believe this is actually something that's 607 00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:44,239 Speaker 2: going to serve you. So the awareness often comes later. 608 00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:47,920 Speaker 2: And maybe there are other experiences and other versions of 609 00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:51,359 Speaker 2: these things where it's a moment. But in the death 610 00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:56,239 Speaker 2: and loss process, I find it's such an extended reorganization 611 00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:59,640 Speaker 2: of people that it's just one moment after another after another. 612 00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:05,080 Speaker 1: That makes perfect sense because the aha moment, while you 613 00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:09,360 Speaker 1: know romantic and you know the fuel of films and 614 00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:13,680 Speaker 1: so forth, there has to be this stripping away, I guess, 615 00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:20,319 Speaker 1: and these sort of obstacles to overcome almost necessarily for 616 00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:24,560 Speaker 1: you to begin to form the new connections or see 617 00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:27,480 Speaker 1: a new way, you have to go through the ordeal 618 00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:33,479 Speaker 1: or the hardship or face the adversity. Sort of coming 619 00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:34,880 Speaker 1: to the end of a lot of the questions that 620 00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:37,520 Speaker 1: I had. But I'm curious about what advice you have. 621 00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:39,879 Speaker 1: So if there's a lot of people out there who 622 00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:42,120 Speaker 1: are currently facing death or the death of a loved 623 00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:45,799 Speaker 1: one or their own mortality, anything that you might say 624 00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:47,840 Speaker 1: to offer to them, and it could be called this number. 625 00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:49,400 Speaker 1: You know, come talk to us, or it could be 626 00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:52,200 Speaker 1: you know, any any bit of advice you could say 627 00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:56,120 Speaker 1: to these to these folks, you know, to navigate them 628 00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:59,160 Speaker 1: towards a transition or towards the acceptance of what's coming. 629 00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:03,040 Speaker 2: We don't come into the world knowing how to deal 630 00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:04,920 Speaker 2: with death. We come in knowing how to breathe and 631 00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:07,080 Speaker 2: how to digest and all these other things. But there 632 00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:10,560 Speaker 2: are other practices which are supposed to be cultural transmissions. 633 00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:13,799 Speaker 2: We're taught how to communicate well, how to parent, how 634 00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:15,879 Speaker 2: to feed ourselves, how to care for our bodies. All 635 00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:19,160 Speaker 2: these life skills and death and loss and dealing with 636 00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:21,040 Speaker 2: death and loss your own are someone you care about 637 00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:25,440 Speaker 2: is a learned skill and we are not taught it. 638 00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:29,120 Speaker 2: So it is a kind of call this number because 639 00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:31,440 Speaker 2: that's what I teach. So you can find it for me. 640 00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:33,720 Speaker 2: I have lots of videos and resources on my site, 641 00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:37,680 Speaker 2: but find it somewhere. Prepare for it before it comes, 642 00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:40,640 Speaker 2: because you can't do your end of life work at 643 00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:42,759 Speaker 2: the end of your life. Right. Another great phrase in 644 00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:47,680 Speaker 2: this work, The more you're you're thinking about it as 645 00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:50,239 Speaker 2: people in your life are ill and dying, the more 646 00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:52,359 Speaker 2: you're able to face it when it's your turn, so 647 00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:56,120 Speaker 2: be prepared and start early. People often put off calling 648 00:36:56,719 --> 00:36:59,080 Speaker 2: doulas and take your death care guides till the very 649 00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:01,600 Speaker 2: last minute because they think I'm not dying yet. I'm 650 00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:03,799 Speaker 2: just gonna wait till I'm dying, and that time never 651 00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:06,759 Speaker 2: really comes, and then suddenly you've missed the opportunity. There's 652 00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:11,120 Speaker 2: so much that can be done to make this a beautiful, 653 00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:15,680 Speaker 2: meaningful process. Laurie Anderson musician, as her husband Lou Reed 654 00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:18,399 Speaker 2: was dying, she nursed him. They both had a deep 655 00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:20,439 Speaker 2: spiritual practice in that process, and she has a great 656 00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:23,400 Speaker 2: line that was in an article she wrote Rolling Stone Magazine, 657 00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:26,040 Speaker 2: and she said, I've come to believe that the purpose 658 00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:29,680 Speaker 2: of death is the release of love. But that doesn't 659 00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:34,040 Speaker 2: happen unless you meet it that way. So we can't 660 00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:37,120 Speaker 2: choose how death happens, when it happens, how it happens, 661 00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:39,440 Speaker 2: but we can choose how we meet it. And if 662 00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:41,879 Speaker 2: we meet it in a way that allows more love 663 00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:45,200 Speaker 2: to flow, more love between the living and the person 664 00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:47,839 Speaker 2: who's dying, more love between the survivors, if the death 665 00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:52,680 Speaker 2: has been sudden, more love and healing. Then even the 666 00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:55,879 Speaker 2: most awful death can have beauty in it. Right, it's 667 00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:59,200 Speaker 2: back to the worst. Things can be beautiful if we 668 00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:01,560 Speaker 2: meet them in in a way that matches that. So 669 00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:06,680 Speaker 2: I guess the advice would be think about it, prepare 670 00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:10,279 Speaker 2: for it, and know that it's hard and it's sad, 671 00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:12,520 Speaker 2: but it doesn't have to be scary and confusing, and 672 00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:14,960 Speaker 2: it can be beautiful if you meet it with intention. 673 00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:19,960 Speaker 1: Okay, I'm going to expand that out a little bit 674 00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:23,520 Speaker 1: and it might be the same answer. But if you 675 00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:27,520 Speaker 1: could inspire one change in how our society approaches death 676 00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:31,040 Speaker 1: and mortality, what would it be and why it's a 677 00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:31,680 Speaker 1: big one. 678 00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:35,840 Speaker 2: We meet death and mortality the same way we meet life, 679 00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:40,200 Speaker 2: and we meet it through the Western worldview, which has 680 00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:44,520 Speaker 2: a lot of blinders. It looks at the world as 681 00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:48,200 Speaker 2: a little box. It says it's material, it's dualistic, it's 682 00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:52,520 Speaker 2: either on off. Yes, no, there's a thousand that it's 683 00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:57,480 Speaker 2: happening internally, right, it's we can't have trans personal experiences. 684 00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:01,240 Speaker 2: So the Western world has this little box, and everything 685 00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:05,120 Speaker 2: that doesn't fit in this box, we say, well, that's unreal, 686 00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:10,399 Speaker 2: that's extraordinary, extrasensory, supernatural, parent normal. We have all these 687 00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:13,920 Speaker 2: ways of just diminishing them, saying they're not real, but 688 00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:18,360 Speaker 2: they're happening. Now, how you make meeting those is another question, 689 00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:22,239 Speaker 2: but that they are happening. So that's why I think 690 00:39:22,239 --> 00:39:24,239 Speaker 2: psychedelics are so exciting. That's why I think this death 691 00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:27,480 Speaker 2: positivity revolution is so exciting, because people are starting to 692 00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:30,920 Speaker 2: get their box expanded, and the box of them I'm me, 693 00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:35,560 Speaker 2: and you are you, and we are individuals. Well, we 694 00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:40,280 Speaker 2: live in a world of ecosystems where we're all intertwined 695 00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:46,120 Speaker 2: in webs of co related, reciprocal systems. If we can 696 00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:49,120 Speaker 2: start to just stretch that box to make space for 697 00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:51,799 Speaker 2: some more experiences, it not only will change how we 698 00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:55,800 Speaker 2: meet death, because it won't be that excommunication light switch out, 699 00:39:56,239 --> 00:39:59,360 Speaker 2: you know, finito end, It'll be the beginning of the 700 00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:02,440 Speaker 2: next journey. It'll also change how we live in the 701 00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:06,640 Speaker 2: world because a relationship with the land, with the ancestors, 702 00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:09,239 Speaker 2: with the future beings, that's a healthier way to be. 703 00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:16,200 Speaker 1: Thank you. I wanted to ask if there's anything else 704 00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:17,839 Speaker 1: that you wanted to discuss or that you were hoping 705 00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:20,480 Speaker 1: to talk about while we were in this conversation. I mean, 706 00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:24,560 Speaker 1: we've hit some big topics and your masterful and your explanations. 707 00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:27,960 Speaker 2: I am like one of those things with a string. 708 00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:31,640 Speaker 2: You could ask me questions all day a thousand different places. 709 00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:34,200 Speaker 2: So is there anything else? 710 00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:36,440 Speaker 1: Was there any final thoughts that you had that maybe 711 00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:39,360 Speaker 1: you know you were hoping to share. If not, that's fine. 712 00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:44,560 Speaker 2: And one other part that's really important and that I 713 00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:47,920 Speaker 2: really encourage people to pay attention to, and you can 714 00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:52,480 Speaker 2: do this quietly just in your own life, is to 715 00:40:52,520 --> 00:40:56,799 Speaker 2: honor and validate your own experiences, the nudges and the 716 00:40:56,840 --> 00:41:03,800 Speaker 2: intuitions and the quiet impulses that come that aren't necessarily fireworks, 717 00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:06,800 Speaker 2: but they just feel. It's a nudge, it's a knowing, 718 00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:15,360 Speaker 2: it's a vision, it's a sense that capacity to open 719 00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:18,520 Speaker 2: our consciousness to something more than just what's in that 720 00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:23,360 Speaker 2: western box. Because that other world, the dream world, the 721 00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:27,719 Speaker 2: psychedelic world, the liminal zone, that speaks to us in 722 00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:33,120 Speaker 2: these internal kind of soul communications. But so often we're 723 00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:35,640 Speaker 2: told that those aren't real, they don't matter, they should 724 00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:37,720 Speaker 2: be ignored. You're just making it up, you're imagining things 725 00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:40,800 Speaker 2: you're not. That's my biggest. 726 00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:42,680 Speaker 1: I guess. 727 00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:47,640 Speaker 2: Plead to people is to value those because that is 728 00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:49,560 Speaker 2: our soul's talking to us and if we lose touch 729 00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:53,000 Speaker 2: with our souls, we've lost everything. And people fool me 730 00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:54,160 Speaker 2: all the time and they say, you know, I did 731 00:41:54,200 --> 00:41:57,759 Speaker 2: these sessions. They say, well, the partner died and I 732 00:41:58,040 --> 00:42:00,400 Speaker 2: just so he said you'd communicate with me, and he hasn't. 733 00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:02,879 Speaker 2: And so we talked a while and I said nothing. 734 00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:06,080 Speaker 2: So well, I had this dream, and they diminished, diminished, diminished, 735 00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:09,640 Speaker 2: diminish the dream. Then we unpack the dream and by 736 00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:11,359 Speaker 2: the end of it they can see what the dream is. 737 00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:15,279 Speaker 2: So we we automatically diminish these things. If there's a 738 00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:19,799 Speaker 2: way that people can really tune into value, that felt sense, experience, 739 00:42:20,080 --> 00:42:22,960 Speaker 2: that's and that's how we meet death in a better way. 740 00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:26,840 Speaker 1: I've been I've been being bombarded a lot lately with 741 00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:31,040 Speaker 1: signs on the on the road, signposts myself that are 742 00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:34,760 Speaker 1: you know, this idea of like okay, the messages coming 743 00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:39,279 Speaker 1: are like let go, like stop the struggle, let go, 744 00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:43,040 Speaker 1: And you do that because you can't simultaneously have anxiety 745 00:42:43,040 --> 00:42:45,040 Speaker 1: and be focused on something at the same time. So 746 00:42:45,640 --> 00:42:48,920 Speaker 1: let go. Focus on the now, focus on the immediate, 747 00:42:48,920 --> 00:42:50,560 Speaker 1: the present, because there is no future, there is no path. 748 00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:53,800 Speaker 1: Just focus on the present and follow the prompts. 749 00:42:53,920 --> 00:43:00,600 Speaker 2: Follow the prompts. Yes, yeah, exactly like synchronicity, and yes, 750 00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:04,200 Speaker 2: coincidents and perfectly timed signs that are too good to 751 00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:05,240 Speaker 2: be true, but they're really true. 752 00:43:05,560 --> 00:43:05,880 Speaker 4: Right. 753 00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:09,799 Speaker 1: It's like a knock, like, hey, hello over here. Don't 754 00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:12,160 Speaker 1: ignore them, right, he said, knock. 755 00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:13,680 Speaker 2: I don't know if you heard, but my dogs just 756 00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:17,799 Speaker 2: knocked over there. You go, a huge crash in my background. 757 00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:21,480 Speaker 2: You said, knock. 758 00:43:21,560 --> 00:43:22,480 Speaker 1: How serendipitous. 759 00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:24,280 Speaker 2: Let me just let in the dog who's now scratched. 760 00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:31,680 Speaker 1: Okay, thank you so much. I so respect your work, 761 00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:35,680 Speaker 1: and I'm I'm fascinated by this stuff, and I'm fascinated 762 00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:38,799 Speaker 1: by the cultural anthropology side of it, and I love 763 00:43:38,840 --> 00:43:42,200 Speaker 1: that you're bringing it to us and opening our eyes 764 00:43:42,239 --> 00:43:45,319 Speaker 1: and here in the Western world with tools on how 765 00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:49,200 Speaker 1: to how to navigate these waters. And it's just such 766 00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:50,640 Speaker 1: meaningful work. And I can't tell you how much I 767 00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:52,160 Speaker 1: appreciate you joining us on the podcast. 768 00:43:52,560 --> 00:43:54,040 Speaker 2: Thanks so much, Dan, It's been a real little light. 769 00:43:54,040 --> 00:43:55,279 Speaker 2: I've enjoyed a conversation a lot. 770 00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:56,919 Speaker 1: Awesome. Okay, Okay. 771 00:43:57,160 --> 00:43:57,719 Speaker 2: Thanks. 772 00:44:06,080 --> 00:44:07,880 Speaker 1: To learn more about doctor Kerr and her work, you 773 00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:12,440 Speaker 1: can visit her website, The Center for Sacred Deathcare www 774 00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:14,760 Speaker 1: dot Sacredeathcare. 775 00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:16,919 Speaker 3: Dot com, and you can always follow her on social 776 00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:22,680 Speaker 3: media for insights on death, grief, and transformational healing. Look 777 00:44:22,719 --> 00:44:33,040 Speaker 3: for links in our show notes. Next time on Alive Again, 778 00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:36,120 Speaker 3: we meet Cliff Bowman, a veteran who was stationed near 779 00:44:36,160 --> 00:44:38,760 Speaker 3: the Pentagon on nine to eleven and played a critical 780 00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:41,200 Speaker 3: role in the rescue mission that day. The trauma of 781 00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:43,880 Speaker 3: that experience followed him for years, leading him to a 782 00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:47,040 Speaker 3: deep depression that eventually led to a suicide attempt. 783 00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:49,479 Speaker 4: I do say that I am a suicide survivor because 784 00:44:49,520 --> 00:44:51,759 Speaker 4: I think it's important. I will no longer be a 785 00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:54,279 Speaker 4: shame to that because that event has shaked my life 786 00:44:54,280 --> 00:44:57,920 Speaker 4: to what I am now. For people who have survived suicide, 787 00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:00,399 Speaker 4: I think they look at things differently. Right, you want 788 00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:03,040 Speaker 4: to go and enjoy life, You really want to live again. 789 00:45:03,239 --> 00:45:06,160 Speaker 1: Cliff's story is one of resilience. He shares how facing 790 00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:10,880 Speaker 1: his darkness ultimately helped him find a way back to life. 791 00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:14,520 Speaker 1: Our story producers are Dan Bush, Kate Sweeney, Brent Die, 792 00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:19,600 Speaker 1: Nicholas Dakoski, and Lauren Vogelbaum. Music by Ben Lovett, Additional 793 00:45:19,680 --> 00:45:23,720 Speaker 1: music by Alexander Rodriguez. Our Executive producers are Matthew Frederick 794 00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:26,920 Speaker 1: and Trevor Young. Special thanks to Alexander Williams for additional 795 00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:31,000 Speaker 1: production support. Our studio engineers are Rima L. Kali and 796 00:45:31,080 --> 00:45:35,839 Speaker 1: Noames Griffin. Our editors are Dan Bush, Gerhartzlovitchka, Brent Die 797 00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:39,960 Speaker 1: and Alexander Rodriguez. Mixing by Ben Lovett and Alexander Rodriguez. 798 00:45:40,520 --> 00:45:58,920 Speaker 1: I'm your host, Dan Bush. Alive Again is a production 799 00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:02,000 Speaker 1: of IRT Radio and go Via Pictures. If you have 800 00:46:02,040 --> 00:46:05,040 Speaker 1: a transformative near death experience to share, we'd love to 801 00:46:05,080 --> 00:46:08,760 Speaker 1: hear your story. Please email us at a Live Again 802 00:46:08,840 --> 00:46:12,840 Speaker 1: project at gmail dot com. That's a l I v 803 00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:16,239 Speaker 1: e A g A I N p R O j 804 00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:43,560 Speaker 1: E c T at gmail dot com.