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Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet, as a production

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Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. I'm bridget Todd and this

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Speaker 1: is there Are No Girls on the Internet. Welcome to

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Speaker 1: the Air No Girls on the Internet. This is another

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Speaker 1: iteration of our weekly news roundup where we explore all

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Speaker 1: the stories happening online in news, tech, media culture, so

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Speaker 1: you don't have to I am thrilled to introduce today's

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Speaker 1: guest co host, Nima Sharazzi, co host of The Citations

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Speaker 1: Needed podcast, which I guess I would describe it as

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Speaker 1: a leftist podcast about how media shapes power. Nima, that

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Speaker 1: is that a fair description of the show.

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Speaker 2: I think that's a fantastic description. Bridget and hi everyone,

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Speaker 2: and at you. Bridgett. Thanks so much for having me today.

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Speaker 2: This is is gonna be really fun. I really appreciate you,

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Speaker 2: uh asking me to do this. Yeah, are tag Line

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Speaker 2: is officially a podcast on the media, power, pr and

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Speaker 2: the history of bullshit. But I think you pretty much

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Speaker 2: sum it up. You know, the idea of how media

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Speaker 2: does shape not only perception but also the operation of power,

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Speaker 2: and how power kind of works in our world not

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Speaker 2: just through language but also through invisibilizing certain things in

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Speaker 2: terms of foregrounding certain things, silencing certain voices while lifting

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Speaker 2: up others. And so, yeah, that's the show. We've been

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Speaker 2: doing it for now eight years. We just finished our

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Speaker 2: eighth season and taken a tiny break before we come

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Speaker 2: back with season nine starting in September.

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Speaker 1: And am I going to embarrass you if I brag

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Speaker 1: on you really quick?

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Speaker 2: Because you told me.

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Speaker 1: Something off Mike that I was. I gasped because I

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Speaker 1: was so excited.

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Speaker 2: Yes, feel free, I tend not to you know what?

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Speaker 2: Fuck that? Yeah? Shit, yeah, I get to put some

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Speaker 2: respect on my name right here.

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Speaker 1: So they've been doing this podcast eight seasons. They bear

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Speaker 1: you guys. You all barely have a social presence, but

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Speaker 1: that did not stop you from being included in this

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Speaker 1: new book podcast, Pantheon one hundred and one podcast that

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Speaker 1: changed how we listen from what the fuck to Cereal?

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Speaker 2: And I mean, I just can't like it is huge.

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Speaker 1: I was listening to another podcast that I love called

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Speaker 1: uh yeah Dude talking about this book and how they

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Speaker 1: were included in it, and I remember think I was

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Speaker 1: making dinner. I thought, I wonder if anybody I know

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Speaker 1: would be included in this book, and to be in

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Speaker 1: this book, you genuinely have to be foundational to the

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Speaker 1: art of podcasting, and the powers that be have said

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Speaker 1: citations needed. You all are foundational to the art of podcasting.

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Speaker 1: Because you're included.

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Speaker 2: That is very very kind of you to say, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I know, we're thrilled to be in it. Uh. Sean Malin,

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Speaker 2: who wrote the book, you know, has been covering the

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Speaker 2: art of podcasts, I would say, uh for a very

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Speaker 2: very long time. He is a writer at Vulture and

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Speaker 2: you know, New York Magazine and plenty of other places,

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Speaker 2: really really great culture critic and writer commentator, and he

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Speaker 2: decided to include us in this. I you know, I

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Speaker 2: was thinking we would be the you know, one hundred

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Speaker 2: and fifth podcast, but apparently we're We're in one hundred

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Speaker 2: and one. So we made it. We made it, and

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Speaker 2: it's it's it's quite it's quite lovely. As you said,

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Speaker 2: we you know, we really don't talk about ourselves all

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Speaker 2: that much. It's kind of a you know, fully listener funded,

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Speaker 2: very word of mouth podcast, but people listen, people seem

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Speaker 2: to like it. We've been doing it for eight years

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Speaker 2: and going strong, and so it's really lovely to be

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Speaker 2: included in something without you know, without having the backing

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Speaker 2: of like corporate sponsors. You know, we've never read any

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Speaker 2: commercials or add copy. Ever, we don't have any grant money,

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Speaker 2: we don't have any corporate sponsors, as it said, like,

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Speaker 2: we don't even have a fucking website. Don't get me

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Speaker 2: started on that. But yeah, it's it seems to be

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Speaker 2: working out and now you know, hey, it's an ink,

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Speaker 2: it's official. We're legit now.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And to your point about being one hundred percent

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Speaker 1: listener and supporter funded, I need to just kind of

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Speaker 1: underline that because in this day and age, especially for

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Speaker 1: leftist media, that is it's so difficult to sustain yourself.

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Speaker 1: And you know, listen, the reality is we don't have

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Speaker 1: a strongly well funded media wing like they have on

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Speaker 1: the right.

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Speaker 2: We just don't have that.

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Speaker 1: And so being able to be making this kind of

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Speaker 1: media and criticism for eight years without ever reading an

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Speaker 1: ad you know, I have, I've read an add or

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Speaker 1: to in my day. As our listeners are no, no, no,

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Speaker 1: no aware of I don't think there's no no, no shade.

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Speaker 2: We you know, there's there's there's just a certain level

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Speaker 2: of independence and ideology that we kind of agreed to

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Speaker 2: right when we started in you know, June and July

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Speaker 2: of twenty seventeen, which seems both like a minute ago

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Speaker 2: and you know three millennia, and so yeah, we've really

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Speaker 2: kind of kept to that. And it's just it's just

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Speaker 2: really nice to have made it this this far and

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Speaker 2: to you know, have the amazing support of our listeners

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Speaker 2: that just allows us to really stay independent. You know,

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Speaker 2: we're just not beholden to anyone ever. And so you know,

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Speaker 2: we can talk about police brutality, we can talk about

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Speaker 2: the genocide and gaza, we can talk about real estate interests,

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Speaker 2: you know, having kind of exterminationist rhetoric against homeless people.

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Speaker 2: Like we can do all that without ever thinking about,

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Speaker 2: you know, us being pulled, or us getting a you know,

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Speaker 2: a scoldy email, or having to worry about grant funding

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Speaker 2: drying up from a you know, quote unquote liberal foundation.

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Speaker 2: You know, we just don't have to deal with that.

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Speaker 2: And and I I really don't take that for granted.

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Speaker 2: You know, I very much have been a part of

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Speaker 2: the progressive you know ecosystem for a long time. And

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Speaker 2: I say progressive, not even leftists. I mean, uh, you know,

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Speaker 2: day job wise, and so I know that it's it's

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Speaker 2: it's it's tough out there to sustain and to and

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Speaker 2: to stay true, and you know, we're all just trying

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Speaker 2: to all just trying to do our good workout here.

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Speaker 2: And I just think that the work of citations needed,

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Speaker 2: you know, is it is a testament to our listeners

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Speaker 2: more than more than anything else. You know, we have

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Speaker 2: an amazing team, me and Adam, of course, but you

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Speaker 2: know also are our producer, Florence and Julianne are are

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Speaker 2: our editor, Trendell transcribers, and and other supporters that we've

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Speaker 2: had over the years. But the fact that our listeners

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Speaker 2: have just stayed with us this long and keep supporting

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Speaker 2: the show is is just really lovely.

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Speaker 1: If you're not listing the citations needed, please change that

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Speaker 1: right away, y'all, because it is a it is a

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Speaker 1: it is a force in this world, and we.

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Speaker 2: Need more shows like that.

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Speaker 1: So, Nima, I actually have a rare bit of like

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Speaker 1: the tiniest shred of what I'm kind of calling good news.

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Speaker 1: I feel like lately the show being what stuff's been bleased.

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Speaker 2: That is not why you brought me on Bridge.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I want to talk about something positive for a change.

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Speaker 2: This is a swirm. I feel like this is now

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Speaker 2: a gotcha interview. Yeah, you're like, this is oh now

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Speaker 2: it's a hostile interview. So, folks, No, I live in DC.

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Speaker 1: I have been trying very hard to not make the

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Speaker 1: entire podcast about what's happening in DC, even though it

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Speaker 1: feels like it's all I actively think about anymore.

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Speaker 2: And so it's like every conversation it's the top of mind.

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Speaker 1: But I do have a tiny bit of good news

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Speaker 1: out of DC. So the very first night of Trump's

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Speaker 1: takeover of DC's police force, a man was arrested for

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Speaker 1: throwing a subway sandwich at federal officers while saying fuck

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Speaker 1: you fascist on a viral video.

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Speaker 2: Did you see this, of course the sandwich man. I

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Speaker 2: love that guy. Yeah, all all, all power to all

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Speaker 2: this sandwich people. And so yeah, I believe I saw

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Speaker 2: this news to bridge it, there was this case was

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Speaker 2: brought before a grand jury. Yes, this man threw like

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Speaker 2: like a wrapped up, you know, subway sandwich at some

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Speaker 2: fascist in DC occupying d C. Yeah, and as he said,

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Speaker 2: was like, you know, fuck you, get out of my city.

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Speaker 2: And like this clip went viral. If throwing the sandwich

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Speaker 2: at some like jack booted thugs chest and then like

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Speaker 2: running down the street with like Keystone cops going after him,

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Speaker 2: and I guess they like got him and he was pulled.

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Speaker 2: You know. His case was put in front of the

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Speaker 2: grand jury, and I believe this is where you're, uh,

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Speaker 2: you know, unlikely good news comes from.

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Speaker 1: Yes, that grand jury in DC declined to indict, so

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Speaker 1: he was free to go. They so they popped this

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Speaker 1: guy on felony assault of an officer Chargers, which come on, now,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I mean, I guess I would say it

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Speaker 1: seems like a little much in terms of the charges.

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Speaker 2: You could say they were trumped up.

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Speaker 1: But I do think it's a testament to how DC

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Speaker 1: feels about having you know, military and federal agents in

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Speaker 1: our city. It is pretty unusual for grand juries to

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Speaker 1: not indict. One of the sayings is that, oh, you

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Speaker 1: can get an indictment on a ham sandwich, but I

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Speaker 1: guess not for throwing a hand.

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Speaker 2: Apparently not. I mean, who knows, who knows. Maybe it

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Speaker 2: was like the you know, if there was honey mustard

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Speaker 2: on there, you know, that could be fairly threatening to

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Speaker 2: an officer's life and livelihood. So I kind of understand that,

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Speaker 2: but you know, uh yeah, thrilled to thrilled to hear

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Speaker 2: that the sandwich man is free.

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Speaker 1: He is free. He kind of became a local hero here.

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Speaker 1: Pun not intended, but very much appreciated. There are you

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Speaker 1: know that that bank sky photo the guy whole Oh yeah, like.

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Speaker 2: The yeah, the banks, the banks. The stencil has now

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Speaker 2: turned into like yeah, like like a sandwich thrower. It's

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Speaker 2: pretty it's pretty solid.

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Speaker 1: So he yeah, he has become kind of a local

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Speaker 1: folk hero here. And yeah, I really do think the

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Speaker 1: fact that you know, you could not get DC residents

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Speaker 1: to indict this person just goes to show how much

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Speaker 1: DC residents do not want Trump and what is happening

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Speaker 1: in our city. And you know, being from DC, I've

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Speaker 1: seen National Guard. I've seen what they do. I I've

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Speaker 1: seen them around and what I am seeing is they

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Speaker 1: are hanging out, they are on their phones, they are

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Speaker 1: getting iced coffee. Now they are like cleaning up trash

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Speaker 1: and doing landscaping. I saw a report today that estimates

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Speaker 1: that the National Guard deployment to DC is costing taxpayers.

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Speaker 2: One million dollars a day.

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Speaker 1: And I just think, no matter what Trump says, he

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Speaker 1: can say whatever he wants about how you know he

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Speaker 1: said that district residents are running out of their houses

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Speaker 1: to thank federal agents.

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Speaker 2: For being here. He can say whatever he wants.

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Speaker 1: We know the truth, and I think the fact that

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Speaker 1: DC resident failed to indict this man goes to show

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Speaker 1: what the truth is.

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Speaker 3: Let's take a quick break at her back.

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Speaker 1: If there's one thing that y'all probably know about Taylor Swift,

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Speaker 1: other than the fact that she just got engaged, it's

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Speaker 1: that she loves her private jet. When she was first

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Speaker 1: dating Travis Kelce, I remember her taking some heat for

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Speaker 1: using her private jet to take pretty short trips to

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Speaker 1: go see him. She I mean, she has made some

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Speaker 1: comically short flights, like she took a private jet between

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Speaker 1: lax and LA to Santa Monica Airport, Which is it

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Speaker 1: might it might take you thirty minutes by car.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, her carbon footprint is large. That's a good

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Speaker 2: way to put it.

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Speaker 1: And I will say she is not the only celebrity

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Speaker 1: who does this kind kind of thing. And celebrities kind

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Speaker 1: of understandably often want their private jet use to be

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Speaker 1: obscured from the public because it comes with all kinds

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Speaker 1: of bad press. You know, if I'm in my apartment

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Speaker 1: rinsing out a yogurt container for recycling. But a wealthy

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Speaker 1: celebrity is taking a private jet to go twenty minutes

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Speaker 1: down the road. I can see why that would be

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Speaker 1: the kind of thing they want to obscure because it

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Speaker 1: would come with bad press.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean yeah, I think there's that. There's also

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Speaker 2: the idea of, like, you know, from from their perspective,

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Speaker 2: I think the you know, part of the argument is

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Speaker 2: not only about like fuel usage, but about like their whereabouts. Right,

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Speaker 2: you don't want you know, as public figures highly sought

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Speaker 2: after celebrities. You know, we saw this with Elon Musk, Right,

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Speaker 2: He's like furious that his private jet was being tracked

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Speaker 2: all around the world. Similarly the case for a lot

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Speaker 2: of celebrities, and no more so than Taylor Swift. I think,

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Speaker 2: you know, there's been a there's been like an FAA

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Speaker 2: carve out for this, yes, uh, celebrities for for for

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Speaker 2: quite some time now. A lot of private jet companies

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Speaker 2: have gotten their data scrubbed from these flight tracker sites.

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Speaker 2: So you don't know where like Martha Stewart is, you

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Speaker 2: don't know where Oprah is, and you don't know where

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Speaker 2: Taylor is right, and so I like that that the

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Speaker 2: that the you know, worldwide news about the Swift Kelsey

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Speaker 2: engagement was marred a bit for you, Bridget Bye, by

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Speaker 2: the simultaneous news that Taylor really doesn't want people to

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Speaker 2: know where she is in the world. It was marred.

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Speaker 1: And I will say this, and I want to own

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Speaker 1: up front that this is my unpopular opinion. I have

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Speaker 1: taken heat for this opinion, and I can take it.

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Speaker 1: People might not like it. In my opinion, I don't

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Speaker 1: think anybody really needs a private jet. Celebrities and rich

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Speaker 1: people and famous people they have their own special access

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Speaker 1: part of the airport where they can do tsa screening

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Speaker 1: in private, and a private car takes them right to

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Speaker 1: the place. We have figured if you have money, we

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Speaker 1: have figured out how to get high profile people privately

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Speaker 1: and securely through an airport. Hillary Clinton fls Commercial BTS,

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Speaker 1: one of the biggest K pop bands in the world

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Speaker 1: with like a rabid fan base. They fly commercial. Prince

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Speaker 1: Harry and Kate Middleton are royalty and they fly I

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Speaker 1: mean it's all first class commercial, but it is still commercial.

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Speaker 2: I have taken heat for this opinion.

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Speaker 1: I think that we don't like, in twenty twenty five,

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Speaker 1: if you have money, we have figured out how to

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Speaker 1: securely get famous people to fly commercial securely, and people

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Speaker 1: who refuse to fly commercial and feel that they absolutely

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Speaker 1: have to take a private jet everywhere they go, even

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Speaker 1: for short distances, they should just say I like flying

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Speaker 1: on a PJ. If I was wealthy and famous, I

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Speaker 1: would probably prefer private jet as well. Just say that

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Speaker 1: it's a little bit of a personal pet peeve of

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Speaker 1: mine that we have.

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Speaker 2: That you're being apologetic about this bridget as if I'm

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Speaker 2: going to be like, you know what, I'm really u

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Speaker 2: proud of it jet side of this. No, I like,

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Speaker 2: I think that's a very reasonable thing to think, you

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Speaker 2: know that that maybe that kind of use of your wealth,

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Speaker 2: that that kind of elitism is potentially unnecessary in this world, right,

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Speaker 2: But I think it kind of comes back to the

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Speaker 2: fact that many people, and certainly many Americans, dare I

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Speaker 2: say most Americans think that they're just kind of like

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Speaker 2: one minute away from being a multi millionaire, and so

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Speaker 2: they don't want things to kind of be written into

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Speaker 2: law that will inevitably kind of like negatively affect them

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Speaker 2: when that happens. Right to them. They you know, as

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Speaker 2: you said, it's like they would want a private jet too,

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Speaker 2: and so it's like they're kind of speaking on behalf

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Speaker 2: of a class that they wish they were a part of,

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Speaker 2: but but but will will never be a part of,

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Speaker 2: which I think, really, uh, you know, not not to

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Speaker 2: be too dorm room about it, but you know, I'll

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Speaker 2: take a hit off this bong and then say that

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Speaker 2: really does go a long way to keep serving power folks. Sorry,

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Speaker 2: we can It's okay. We can be against private jets.

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Speaker 2: They're still going to exist. You can still be against it, though. No.

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Speaker 2: So the reason why I.

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Speaker 1: Gave all those caveats that this is just my opinion

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Speaker 1: is because when I not on this podcast, but when

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Speaker 1: I have said online that I actually don't think that

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Speaker 1: even super famous people, I don't think that they need

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Speaker 1: private jets. There's always some explanation like, oh, well they're

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Speaker 1: very famous, they would get hounded. You don't think bts

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Speaker 1: would get hounded. You don't think Prince Harry and Kate

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Speaker 1: Middleton would be hounded. They like, like, we have figured

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Speaker 1: this out, and I guess I just hate that we

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Speaker 1: It's exactly what you said of kind of making excuses

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Speaker 1: for what the powerful and wealthy do because secretly, deep down,

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Speaker 1: we all think that maybe if you play our cards right.

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Speaker 2: That'll be us one day.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I have made peace with the fact that

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Speaker 1: I will never be in a private jet. I will

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Speaker 1: I will leave this earth never having stepped foot on

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Speaker 1: a private jet, and that is fine. We don't have

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Speaker 1: to bend over backward to excuse these things that I

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Speaker 1: just I just fundamentally don't think that people need. I mean,

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Speaker 1: if if, if, if Hillary Clinton of all people can

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Speaker 1: fly first class commercial, everybody can fly first class commercial.

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Speaker 2: Like I don't I don't want, I don't want.

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Speaker 1: To hear that that there's some special, super secret reason

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Speaker 1: why this celebrity has to be on a private jet

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Speaker 1: other than they just like a private jet.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just kind of easy and fun and cool, right, like,

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Speaker 2: like that's what it that's what it is. But uh yeah, no,

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Speaker 2: I think it's it's it's it's hard to make the

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Speaker 2: pro private jet argument, yeah, and not just sound like

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Speaker 2: like a shithead, like I think that's just kind of

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Speaker 2: where it where it falls. But yeah, you know, I mean,

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Speaker 2: we're we're all just we're all just a minute away

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Speaker 2: from making it ourselves, and so, uh, we allow other

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Speaker 2: people to kind of live out our fantasies for us.

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Speaker 1: I guess, so I understand why celebrities want their private

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Speaker 1: jet usage obscured. And as you were referring to, they

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Speaker 1: are able to use this little known Federal Aviation Administration

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Speaker 1: program to shield their private jet flight records from public view.

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Speaker 1: So Taylor Swift, Oprah Winfrey, Steven Spielberg, they have all

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Speaker 1: used this program. And now ICE, yes, that ICE, the

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Speaker 1: agency that is carrying out Trump's nasty portations, is using

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Speaker 1: this loophole that was formerly kind of mostly used for

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Speaker 1: celebrities to shield deportation flight information from the public. According

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Speaker 1: to this very interesting piece from Lever, this is sort

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Speaker 1: of a new thing, so they say, to obscure its

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Speaker 1: planes which ship immigrants out of the country on deportation flights.

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Speaker 1: ICE is taking advantage of a long standing program created

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Speaker 1: by the private jet lobby. For years, the scheme has

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Speaker 1: allowed celebrities and Wall Street CEOs to partially block their

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Speaker 1: flight data from public view. So the reason why this

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Speaker 1: program exists at all is thanks to the corporate jet lobby.

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Speaker 1: Deportation flights just like those celebrity PJ flights can be

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Speaker 1: tracked in real time still using other public data. But

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Speaker 1: ICE's use of the FAA's private jet blacklist program really

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Speaker 1: does underscore how this growing push for obscure, obscuring all

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Speaker 1: of this by the corporate jet lobby is being used

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Speaker 1: to limit public oversight over ICE's immigration crackdown, right like,

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Speaker 1: and apparently this is really unprecedented. It's crazy to me

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Speaker 1: to think that they're they're using this carve out thanks

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Speaker 1: to celebrities and wealthy people and the corporate jet lobby

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Speaker 1: to really be able to obscure from the American people

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Speaker 1: what is happening when it comes to deportations.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I mean I think this really shows how

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Speaker 2: interconnected fascism is with privatization and corporatization, right, and so,

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Speaker 2: you know, a fundamental component of a fascist state, uh

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Speaker 2: is the like selective privatization of certain companies, certain industries

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Speaker 2: with that benefit wealthy uh supporters of the fascist regime,

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Speaker 2: right primarily. And so you can kind of see here

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Speaker 2: how celebrity culture, private jet lobbies, these these luxury industries

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Speaker 2: are now kind of writing the playbook for uh, you know,

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Speaker 2: anti regulation, for anti oversight that we're seeing from this

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Speaker 2: you know, clearly fascist administration. All I'll say is is,

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Speaker 2: you know, I'm surprised it took this long, Right, I

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Speaker 2: think I think that it's a it's a it's a

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Speaker 2: it's a kind of clever synergy here that a kind

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Speaker 2: of anti quote unquote surveillance, you know, pro privacy lobby

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Speaker 2: that only benefits the super rich. And I say, like

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Speaker 2: not just rich, right, but like like rich rich, rich,

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Speaker 2: private jet rich Epstein rich, right. And so that carve

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Speaker 2: out that kind of you know, goes under the radar

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Speaker 2: from public knowledge because like why would anyone know that exists?

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Speaker 2: And until you know that it exists, you know, you

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Speaker 2: kind of wouldn't think about it. Now that that is

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Speaker 2: being revealed because of how it is being weaponized in

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Speaker 2: service of deportation, in service of racism and xenophobia by

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Speaker 2: the Trump administration's deportation project, now it's kind of you know,

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Speaker 2: you're able to see where those where those connections kind

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Speaker 2: of already exist, right, Yeah.

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Speaker 1: It's so clearly interconnected. And yeah, I think that when

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Speaker 1: we justify these carve outs for the super wealthy billionaires,

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Speaker 1: very wealthy, very powerful people, it is connected to the

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Speaker 1: way that the government is able to obscure from the

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Speaker 1: American people what is going on with iced deportations, and

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Speaker 1: you might not think it, you might not see it

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Speaker 1: when you're saying, oh, well, just let Oprah be on

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Speaker 1: her private jet. But obviously all of this stuff is interconnected.

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Speaker 1: And you mentioned earlier Elon Musk.

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Speaker 2: And you know, so if this's all, yeah, sorry about that.

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Speaker 1: I know, we used to working on the show where

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Speaker 1: we would do like a Musk alert where it was like.

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Speaker 2: Just so you know, we're going to talk about apologies.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, trigger warning Elon Musk. But so folks, if this

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Speaker 1: sounds familiar, folks might recall, as you were saying, Nima,

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Speaker 1: that Elon Musk was pretty kind of irate about this.

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Speaker 1: A little bit of recent history. So this guy named

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Speaker 1: Jack Sweeney. He's an online researcher. He came kind of

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Speaker 1: famous for tracking private jets owned by people like Elon

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Speaker 1: Musk and Taylor Swift. He was providing real time information

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Speaker 1: about the whereabouts of their jets, and kind of unsurprisingly,

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Speaker 1: people like Taylor Swift and Elon Musk did not like this.

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Speaker 1: Both Swift and Musk were angered by Sweeney's live trackers,

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Speaker 1: and in December twenty twenty three, Taylor Swift's lawyer sent

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Speaker 1: Sweeney a seasoned desist letter. Elon Musk for a time

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Speaker 1: banned Sweeney's Elon Jet account that tracked his jet location,

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Speaker 1: but he refused to take these trackers down. And so interestingly,

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Speaker 1: this is something that I really think is a crucial

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Speaker 1: point here. So because Taylor Swift and Elon Musk both

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Speaker 1: take advantage of this Ladd kind of blacklist, which obscures

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Speaker 1: them from saa public flight tracking data, you know, sites

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Speaker 1: like flight aware. Because they are on that list, it's

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Speaker 1: harder to track them. But because Sweeney is like an

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Speaker 1: aviation nerd, He's figured out a workaround, and so his

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Speaker 1: jet tracking relies entirely on crowdsourced flight data collected by

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Speaker 1: volunteers around the world who use their own DIY receivers

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Speaker 1: to pick up live data from planes overhead, allowing him

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Speaker 1: to bypass this Ladd blacklist program that these wealthy people

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Speaker 1: have been taking advantage of.

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Speaker 2: And so, yeah, to me, this is like a.

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Speaker 1: Win for aviation nerds where it's like, well, you can't

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Speaker 1: stop me from standing outside and collecting data and telling

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Speaker 1: other aviation nerds where what.

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Speaker 2: That data is. Yeah, Yeah, No, I like the idea

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Speaker 2: that they're standing up like that they're just like looking

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Speaker 2: up in the sky and like wriping down, like what's

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Speaker 2: the serial number on the bottom of that wing? But no,

431
00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:47,679
Speaker 2: I think it's certainly important that there are people that

432
00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:56,080
Speaker 2: are adamant about transparency and adamant about doing this this

433
00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:59,879
Speaker 2: kind of work, so that even when their accounts a

434
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:03,040
Speaker 2: are frozen, even when they are banned from certain platforms,

435
00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:05,480
Speaker 2: you know, hey, the truth will get out.

436
00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:09,440
Speaker 1: Exactly so, even though these ice flights are trying to

437
00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:12,640
Speaker 1: get around transparency by using this loophole that allows them

438
00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:16,080
Speaker 1: to be blacklisted, they cannot hide from scrutiny, just like

439
00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:19,679
Speaker 1: Elon Musk's private jet cannot hide from scrutiny. But positions

440
00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:23,639
Speaker 1: of ice deportation flights will remain available even if they

441
00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:26,439
Speaker 1: are flown on some of these blacklisted planes thanks to

442
00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:32,520
Speaker 1: enthusiasts who feed this information just called ADSB data. I'm

443
00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:35,280
Speaker 1: not an aviation nerd, so if I say that incorrectly,

444
00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:39,840
Speaker 1: I apologize, But thanks to enthusiasts who are feeding this

445
00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:42,720
Speaker 1: information into open source exchanges, and I just think this

446
00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:47,040
Speaker 1: story really does just go to show that dedicated people

447
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:53,359
Speaker 1: can work together to organize systems to create transparency because

448
00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:55,960
Speaker 1: of the American people deserve to know that their tax

449
00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:59,520
Speaker 1: dollars are being spent on these deportation flights, and if

450
00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:02,160
Speaker 1: they weren't anything wrong, they would not need to hide

451
00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:03,120
Speaker 1: it from us in this way.

452
00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:06,520
Speaker 2: Well sure, right, I mean, you know, I think the

453
00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:14,000
Speaker 2: idea that the the deportation regime right now doesn't want

454
00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:19,320
Speaker 2: people to know what's going on tells you everything, right. Uh,

455
00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:23,439
Speaker 2: you know, the idea that that if they can just

456
00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:29,480
Speaker 2: disappear as many people as possible without anyone knowing, then

457
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:31,160
Speaker 2: you know, then it's not going to be a story

458
00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:34,439
Speaker 2: and people are gonna are gonna stop caring. But that

459
00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:37,719
Speaker 2: every kind of chink in that in that armor of

460
00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:42,960
Speaker 2: weaponizing these kind of fascist modes of you know, preventing

461
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:46,479
Speaker 2: information from getting out there is good and so you know,

462
00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:49,280
Speaker 2: it's it's it's great that there you know that there

463
00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:51,720
Speaker 2: are people out there doing this, doing this good work.

464
00:26:55,480 --> 00:27:07,920
Speaker 1: More after a quick break, let's get right back into it.

465
00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:13,879
Speaker 1: Let's talk about the Microsoft protests, because we did an

466
00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:17,359
Speaker 1: episode of the show back in twenty twenty about protesters

467
00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:20,520
Speaker 1: and advocacy work from rank and file tech workers who

468
00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:24,200
Speaker 1: were kind of agitating and advocating from within tech companies.

469
00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:28,400
Speaker 1: A lot of people have suggested that the shifting climate

470
00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:33,760
Speaker 1: in tech, things like job scarcity, layoffs, concerns about AI,

471
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:36,680
Speaker 1: all of these like very real things. But that has

472
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:40,959
Speaker 1: essentially quieted this wave that we saw in twenty twenty

473
00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:44,879
Speaker 1: of activism and advocacy from within tech workers, from like

474
00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:48,639
Speaker 1: rank and file tech workers. But I am proud to

475
00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:51,840
Speaker 1: say that that has not stopped because Microsoft this week

476
00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:54,600
Speaker 1: had to temporarily lock down a building and its headquarters

477
00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:57,240
Speaker 1: after protesters managed to get inside of the office of

478
00:27:57,280 --> 00:28:02,200
Speaker 1: the company's president. So current and former Microsoft workers basically

479
00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:06,960
Speaker 1: held a sit in slash protest inside Brad Smith's of

480
00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:10,359
Speaker 1: Microsoft's office, demanding that the company cut ties with the

481
00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:14,040
Speaker 1: Israeli government as part of the group no Azure for Apartheid.

482
00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:16,640
Speaker 1: Smith said that out of the seven people who entered

483
00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:21,960
Speaker 1: his office, two were active Microsoft employees. Eventually, Microsoft called

484
00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:24,600
Speaker 1: the police and had them removed. Brad Smith was quoted

485
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:27,760
Speaker 1: as saying, quote, Obviously, when seven folks do as they

486
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:30,920
Speaker 1: did today, storm a building, occupy an office, block other

487
00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:33,960
Speaker 1: people out of the office, plant listing devices, even in

488
00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:36,760
Speaker 1: crude form in the form of telephone, cell phones hidden

489
00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:39,960
Speaker 1: under couches and behind books. That's not okay, he told

490
00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:41,280
Speaker 1: reporters during a briefing.

491
00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:48,080
Speaker 2: Now, what is apparently okay is for Microsoft to continue

492
00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:52,240
Speaker 2: to facilitate the genocide of the Palestinian people. That apparently

493
00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:58,040
Speaker 2: is okay. What is not okay is for people to

494
00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:01,000
Speaker 2: have a problem with that, right. And so you know,

495
00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:04,840
Speaker 2: you see here kind of a clear reframing of what

496
00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:08,760
Speaker 2: is important in the story here, you know, on on

497
00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:12,680
Speaker 2: citations needed my show, we uh talk about how things

498
00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:16,320
Speaker 2: are framed, what is what is made kind of apparent,

499
00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:20,240
Speaker 2: what is kept outside of the discourse. And so you know,

500
00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:27,360
Speaker 2: the reporting on on the Microsoft protests kind of takes

501
00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:31,680
Speaker 2: them as like this disturbing the peace story, right, Like

502
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:33,280
Speaker 2: like what are we supposed to do about this? Right,

503
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:36,680
Speaker 2: Like okay, people are up in arms and they're very

504
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:40,680
Speaker 2: moral and sure, but hey, you know, you can't just

505
00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:44,520
Speaker 2: go and like occupy a building. You can't just go

506
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:49,000
Speaker 2: and like chant slogans in a lobby of a corporate headquarters.

507
00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:51,560
Speaker 2: Like you know, like both things can be true at

508
00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:54,160
Speaker 2: the same time. But what that is doing, like that

509
00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:58,080
Speaker 2: framing of the story is deliberately obscuring the purpose of

510
00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:01,400
Speaker 2: the protest, right, the purpose of the protest is to

511
00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:05,239
Speaker 2: stop the you know this, this massive tech company, one

512
00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:11,000
Speaker 2: of the biggest companies on planet Earth, from working hand

513
00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:14,760
Speaker 2: in hand with a genocidal government and a genocidal military

514
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:19,560
Speaker 2: to track the people that they are then targeting to

515
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:23,760
Speaker 2: UH slaughter in Gaza, right, Like they have been collecting

516
00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:27,240
Speaker 2: cell phone data, location data. They have all this stuff

517
00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:32,160
Speaker 2: and they feed this data from Microsoft to Israel to

518
00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:36,280
Speaker 2: facilitate what is now a nearly two year genocide. And yes,

519
00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:39,480
Speaker 2: of course the history did not start UH two years ago,

520
00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:41,840
Speaker 2: so we can we can also talk about that, but

521
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:45,320
Speaker 2: in this in this case, the idea that there are

522
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:51,120
Speaker 2: people who are saying that is not okay, that becomes

523
00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:55,240
Speaker 2: the kind of background story. But the foregrounded story is like, well,

524
00:30:55,280 --> 00:31:00,440
Speaker 2: the CEO was like disrupted from having like his you know,

525
00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:05,600
Speaker 2: teams call, and so therefore that has to be stopped,

526
00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:07,520
Speaker 2: and so like you know, hey, you know, like what's

527
00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:09,400
Speaker 2: he supposed to do? So he called the cops and

528
00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:13,200
Speaker 2: now like one hundred people were arrested, and you know,

529
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:15,040
Speaker 2: so I just say, like I love that you're bringing

530
00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:18,080
Speaker 2: this up Bridge, because it's important to not just kind

531
00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:21,960
Speaker 2: of take the story that we're reading or seeing in

532
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:24,760
Speaker 2: the media at face value, but to realize what the

533
00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:28,240
Speaker 2: story behind the story is and what is actually kind

534
00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:31,720
Speaker 2: of being allowed to be discussed while at the same time,

535
00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:33,120
Speaker 2: what is being deliberately obscured.

536
00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:33,480
Speaker 3: No.

537
00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:36,480
Speaker 1: Absolutely, So one of the points that really struck me

538
00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:39,400
Speaker 1: about how Brad Smith was sort of responding to this

539
00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:42,160
Speaker 1: was he sort of positioned himself as being like, Oh,

540
00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:44,480
Speaker 1: there was this big disturbance in the office, I don't

541
00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:46,600
Speaker 1: know what that was about, but then also kind of

542
00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:50,640
Speaker 1: saying that he doesn't really he can't really say what

543
00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:54,000
Speaker 1: Microsoft technology is being used for, something that I have

544
00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:57,200
Speaker 1: a really hard time believing. So this is from NBC right.

545
00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:00,320
Speaker 1: The Guardian reported earlier this month that Israel's Millie Terry

546
00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:04,560
Speaker 1: used Microsoft's Azure cloud infrastructure to store Palestinian phone calls,

547
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:08,240
Speaker 1: leading the company to authorize a third party investigation into

548
00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:12,000
Speaker 1: whether Israel has drawn on the company's technology for surveillance.

549
00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:14,840
Speaker 1: I think the reasonable step from US is clear in

550
00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:17,200
Speaker 1: this kind of situation, to investigate.

551
00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:18,680
Speaker 2: And get to the truth of how our services are

552
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:20,360
Speaker 2: being you, Smith said, bullshit.

553
00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:20,720
Speaker 3: I have.

554
00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:26,320
Speaker 1: Such a hard time believing they need to do an

555
00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:30,360
Speaker 1: investigation to find out how their services are being used.

556
00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:35,120
Speaker 2: I'm not I'm not buying it. You shouldn't be selling it. No, exactly.

557
00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:38,640
Speaker 2: This is like the living embodiment of the like Claude

558
00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:42,800
Speaker 2: Rains Casablanca, you know, gif of like I'm shocked, shocked

559
00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:45,920
Speaker 2: that there's gambling going on and this, you know, casino

560
00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:50,320
Speaker 2: basically right, you know, so yeah, I mean the idea

561
00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:55,560
Speaker 2: that the idea that Microsoft would a not know what

562
00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:58,719
Speaker 2: is come on, obviously knows what it's doing. But also,

563
00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:01,680
Speaker 2: you know, I have to say I love the kind

564
00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:04,560
Speaker 2: of always go to line and we've actually done a

565
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:08,600
Speaker 2: show about this ourselves, just go to line about well,

566
00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:12,760
Speaker 2: there needs to be an investigation. Let's let's get an

567
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:18,280
Speaker 2: independent investigator, or we'll do it ourselves. You know what,

568
00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:23,080
Speaker 2: why don't we have the Israeli military investigate what Microsoft

569
00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:24,960
Speaker 2: is doing and then we'll tell you if it was

570
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:29,880
Speaker 2: you know, good or bad spoiler alert, they'll think it's fine.

571
00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:33,920
Speaker 2: And yeah, at the same time, bridget this also, you know,

572
00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:38,040
Speaker 2: does this kind of appeal to capitalism, right, This idea

573
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:41,520
Speaker 2: of like, hey, we're we just have the product. We're

574
00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:44,400
Speaker 2: not going to tell you or any of our consumers

575
00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:47,600
Speaker 2: or customers what to do with it. Right, It's just

576
00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:50,280
Speaker 2: a tool. It can be used for good or evil.

577
00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:52,960
Speaker 2: We're not the arbiters of what is good or bad,

578
00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:57,560
Speaker 2: and so therefore their profit motive is going to be paramount,

579
00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:04,160
Speaker 2: right like and and and their own complicity in the

580
00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:12,200
Speaker 2: you know, murder of hundreds of thousands of people, or

581
00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:15,279
Speaker 2: even if it was just literally one person, right who

582
00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:20,560
Speaker 2: doesn't matter, their complicity winds up being totally irrelevant to them.

583
00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:23,440
Speaker 2: And that has everything to do with the function of

584
00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:26,759
Speaker 2: profit over people. So that you can kind of see

585
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:29,360
Speaker 2: the multiple things going on here, right that even the

586
00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:32,359
Speaker 2: kind of normal appeal that I think we hear all

587
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:38,120
Speaker 2: the time from corporations or from you know, companies saying, hey,

588
00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:40,960
Speaker 2: it's just our product. We can't control how people are

589
00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:44,719
Speaker 2: using it, is the same thing as what we've heard

590
00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:47,880
Speaker 2: from tobacco companies, from what we've heard from gun companies,

591
00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:51,840
Speaker 2: what we've heard from you know, cat bulldozers that have

592
00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:55,480
Speaker 2: been used to you know, destroy homes in the West Bank, right, Like,

593
00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:59,320
Speaker 2: it has nothing to do with us. We just create

594
00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:02,400
Speaker 2: the product and then people can use it for whatever.

595
00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:05,520
Speaker 2: Right if you want to use you know, an AR

596
00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:11,800
Speaker 2: fifteen to you know, advocate for trans rights. Well then sure,

597
00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:14,640
Speaker 2: but here's the thing, they don't actually believe that because

598
00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:16,840
Speaker 2: it would never go that way, right, and it would

599
00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:19,920
Speaker 2: never go the way of advocating for rights. It can

600
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:23,080
Speaker 2: only go in the way of like profit in service

601
00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:25,640
Speaker 2: of like, you know, hurting people. Yeah.

602
00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:29,759
Speaker 1: So a former Microsoft staffer who decided to leave the

603
00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:32,359
Speaker 1: company over their ties to Israel put it so well.

604
00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:35,640
Speaker 1: He said, this is not just Microsoft word with Clippy

605
00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:39,480
Speaker 1: in the corner. These are technological weapons. Cloud and AI

606
00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:42,319
Speaker 1: are just as deadly as bombs and bullets. And I

607
00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:45,560
Speaker 1: think that that comment really gets at it that you

608
00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:48,360
Speaker 1: might be thinking, oh, we're just building cloud services, this

609
00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:51,040
Speaker 1: is just whatever. This is just an AI solution, da

610
00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:54,239
Speaker 1: da da dah. And if it's being used in this

611
00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:58,319
Speaker 1: way to facilitate a genocide, who people who join this

612
00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:01,600
Speaker 1: company to make this technology have a right to say,

613
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:04,520
Speaker 1: I don't want my labor going going to be used

614
00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:07,040
Speaker 1: being used in this way. And yeah, I think that

615
00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:11,080
Speaker 1: you're so right that it's very I don't know, I

616
00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:13,800
Speaker 1: think the idea that oh, well, all tech is neutral,

617
00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:16,160
Speaker 1: We're just building the technology and people can decide how

618
00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:17,000
Speaker 1: they want to use it.

619
00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:18,279
Speaker 2: It just really.

620
00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:20,280
Speaker 1: Falls apart under the slightest scrutiny.

621
00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:22,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, exactly, And you can see how it only

622
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:25,960
Speaker 2: goes a certain way, right, I mean, like you can't

623
00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:29,680
Speaker 2: use the argument if you have kind of like a

624
00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:33,560
Speaker 2: leftist argument. It only works the other way. But right,

625
00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:36,279
Speaker 2: I mean if there were you know, if like three

626
00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:45,160
Speaker 2: M were creating, you know, massive sticky notes and sending

627
00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:49,480
Speaker 2: those in the nineteen thirties and forties to the Nazi regime,

628
00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:53,160
Speaker 2: and those giant sticky notes were being used to catalog

629
00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:55,680
Speaker 2: the names of people who are going to be exterminated

630
00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:59,959
Speaker 2: in Auschwitz, I think people might see that like three

631
00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:04,120
Speaker 2: doing that would be a problem, right. It wouldn't just

632
00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:06,920
Speaker 2: be like, well, hey, man, like you know, Gebels can

633
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:10,640
Speaker 2: just like fucking go to Staples anyway. It's either us

634
00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:13,040
Speaker 2: or someone else. It's you know, hey, well that has

635
00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:14,760
Speaker 2: nothing to do with us. But like you can clearly

636
00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:18,320
Speaker 2: see why that's a problem. And so like the idea

637
00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:23,280
Speaker 2: that tools and technology are just as deadly as bombs

638
00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:26,880
Speaker 2: and bullets is a fundamentally important thing I think for

639
00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:29,600
Speaker 2: us all to realize. Yes, of course you can't just

640
00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:33,000
Speaker 2: then ban everything in the world, I guess, or maybe

641
00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:36,480
Speaker 2: you can, but I do think that this idea of

642
00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:40,600
Speaker 2: of sort of like feigned incredulity, that's like, hey man,

643
00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:43,960
Speaker 2: we're just like we're just like creating this spreadsheet tool,

644
00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:46,040
Speaker 2: like I don't know who's using it, like it it,

645
00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:50,279
Speaker 2: as you said, falls apart at the slightest bit of

646
00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:52,719
Speaker 2: like good faith scrutiny.

647
00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:56,839
Speaker 1: And to make matters even worse, Bloomberg reported that Microsoft

648
00:37:57,160 --> 00:38:02,359
Speaker 1: even sought the FBI's help to investigate these pro Gaza protesters.

649
00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:06,480
Speaker 1: So basically, they requested help from the FBI in tracking protests,

650
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:08,560
Speaker 1: and they worked with authorities to try to prevent them,

651
00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:13,400
Speaker 1: and they flagged internal emails containing words like Gaza and

652
00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:16,800
Speaker 1: even deleted internal posts about the protest. This is according

653
00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:21,120
Speaker 1: to employees and documents reviewed by Bloomberg. They also suspended

654
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:24,359
Speaker 1: and fired protesters who disrupted these events. I do love

655
00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:27,479
Speaker 1: how Brad Smith he took this sort of weird stance

656
00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:28,080
Speaker 1: where it's.

657
00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:31,080
Speaker 2: Like, well, we really value and.

658
00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:34,239
Speaker 1: Appreciate our employees and like what they have to say,

659
00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:37,600
Speaker 1: and we really want to hear staff opinions, but we

660
00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:39,839
Speaker 1: will call the FBI it have to be investigated.

661
00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:43,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, exactly exactly. We stand for free speech and

662
00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:47,680
Speaker 2: freedom of thought. But only if we agree, right, Like,

663
00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:51,680
Speaker 2: it doesn't, it doesn't really, it doesn't really work that way,

664
00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:54,520
Speaker 2: except if you're Microsoft. You know, hey, you can just

665
00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:56,920
Speaker 2: you can just call in the FEDS and uh and

666
00:38:56,960 --> 00:39:00,600
Speaker 2: they'll and they'll do your dirty work for you. Yeah,

667
00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:02,279
Speaker 2: I mean, this all, you know, this all has to

668
00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:05,799
Speaker 2: do with the idea of controlling information, which also we've

669
00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:09,200
Speaker 2: seen in terms of you know, since we're talking about

670
00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:17,920
Speaker 2: Israel and Gaza, the the ongoing deliberate targeting of Palestinian journalists,

671
00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:23,319
Speaker 2: which is mind boggling if you look at the if

672
00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:25,600
Speaker 2: you look at the numbers, hundreds of journalists have been

673
00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:31,600
Speaker 2: have been targeted and slaughtered by Israel just for doing

674
00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:35,160
Speaker 2: the work of telling people what is happening. I mean,

675
00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:38,200
Speaker 2: this is the first live stream four K genocide in

676
00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:42,680
Speaker 2: human history, and that is a real problem apparently for

677
00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:46,000
Speaker 2: the Israeli government and military. And so they are going

678
00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:49,839
Speaker 2: after the journalists, they're going after the people who are

679
00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:53,400
Speaker 2: sharing this information. And so, you know, it may not

680
00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:56,520
Speaker 2: seem like a straight line from Microsoft calling in the

681
00:39:56,600 --> 00:40:01,439
Speaker 2: FBI to police its own workforce, but when you think

682
00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:04,560
Speaker 2: about what it means to control the conversation, what it

683
00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:09,440
Speaker 2: means to silence certain voices while having other voices have

684
00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:13,600
Speaker 2: huge platforms. That's when you start to see how important

685
00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:19,520
Speaker 2: controlling information, how important media is in sustaining what we

686
00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:23,920
Speaker 2: believe to be our own kind of like free press,

687
00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:28,359
Speaker 2: freedom of thought, freedom of speech, freedom to assemble. These

688
00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:32,560
Speaker 2: things are all being done under a I would say,

689
00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:35,360
Speaker 2: less than free infrastructure.

690
00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:37,680
Speaker 1: And it goes back to what you were saying about

691
00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:40,200
Speaker 1: how a lot of these stories have been reported because

692
00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:44,839
Speaker 1: so many of them they frame the agitation of their

693
00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:50,040
Speaker 1: Microsoft's fiftieth anniversary programming or whatever as the important nugget

694
00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:54,040
Speaker 1: and not the more important nucleus of like, oh, tech

695
00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:56,120
Speaker 1: workers from within this company are speaking up about a

696
00:40:56,120 --> 00:40:58,799
Speaker 1: genocide and their technology that they're working on being used

697
00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:01,760
Speaker 1: to support that genocide. I think that your point about

698
00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:05,520
Speaker 1: framing is a really salient one of I mean, I

699
00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:07,399
Speaker 1: know you do this on your show all the time,

700
00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:11,160
Speaker 1: but it just goes to show how powerful of a

701
00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:16,080
Speaker 1: tool media can be to frame things and support of oppression.

702
00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:19,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, because you get to decide kind of

703
00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:23,479
Speaker 2: like when history starts whenever you're writing any of these stories, right,

704
00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:27,680
Speaker 2: And so Microsoft and the kind of compliant media that

705
00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:30,920
Speaker 2: is then reporting on this stuff, and that's not everyone.

706
00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:32,279
Speaker 2: I only want to be a jerk about that. I

707
00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:34,480
Speaker 2: think there's some articles about the Microsoft stuff that are

708
00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:37,560
Speaker 2: revealing amazing stuff, right, and important stuff. So I'm not

709
00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:40,200
Speaker 2: saying like every single article that anyone reads on this

710
00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:42,560
Speaker 2: is going to have some shitty framing, but the idea

711
00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:48,760
Speaker 2: that these stories are framed around the disruption to business

712
00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:54,000
Speaker 2: as usual without identifying the business as usual as being

713
00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:59,799
Speaker 2: that which facilitates and is complicit in an ongoing genocide, right,

714
00:41:59,840 --> 00:42:02,759
Speaker 2: And so you kind of decide how the story is

715
00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:05,360
Speaker 2: being told, just like when we hear about October seventh,

716
00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:11,359
Speaker 2: twenty twenty three, as this inciting incident that has now

717
00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:17,120
Speaker 2: led us to Gaza being subject to mass starvation, deliberately,

718
00:42:17,840 --> 00:42:21,040
Speaker 2: you're still deciding to start that story on October seventh

719
00:42:21,480 --> 00:42:26,040
Speaker 2: of twenty twenty three, whereas every day before October seventh,

720
00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:30,520
Speaker 2: even just within that year, within twenty twenty three, one

721
00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:34,200
Speaker 2: Palestinian per day was already being killed by Israel. And

722
00:42:34,239 --> 00:42:38,479
Speaker 2: if you go back further, whether it is fifty years,

723
00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:40,480
Speaker 2: whether it is eighty years, whether you go to the

724
00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:46,440
Speaker 2: Nakba or before, you kind of have a different idea

725
00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:50,200
Speaker 2: of history, right, Like there's a different trajectory. October seventh

726
00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:55,480
Speaker 2: doesn't come from nowhere, but when you start a story there,

727
00:42:56,160 --> 00:43:01,080
Speaker 2: you are deciding that everything beforehand is unimportant context, and

728
00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:04,399
Speaker 2: that therefore we are identifying who the victims are, who

729
00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:06,719
Speaker 2: the oppressors are, who the violent ones are, who the

730
00:43:06,719 --> 00:43:09,360
Speaker 2: peaceful ones are, just in the way that we're setting

731
00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:10,920
Speaker 2: up our story. And so I think you're seeing that

732
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:15,560
Speaker 2: at kind of a grand human catastrophe level when it's

733
00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:18,360
Speaker 2: about Gaza, and then you're seeing those kind of residual

734
00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:24,799
Speaker 2: effects when it's about a smaller story like Microsoft More.

735
00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:42,920
Speaker 1: After a quick break, let's get right back into it, Okay.

736
00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:46,520
Speaker 1: So one of my favorite tech outlets for ro four Media.

737
00:43:46,560 --> 00:43:47,880
Speaker 1: If you listen to the show, you know I'm a

738
00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:51,760
Speaker 1: huge fangirl of them. They have another great expos about

739
00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:56,840
Speaker 1: the fact that TikTok shop is essentially selling stalker gear.

740
00:43:57,080 --> 00:44:02,080
Speaker 1: So TikTok shop is selling GPS trackers that are explicitly

741
00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:07,480
Speaker 1: marketed with viral TikTok voiceover encouraging folks to use them

742
00:44:07,560 --> 00:44:11,240
Speaker 1: to track secretly a romantic partner. Some of these videos

743
00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:14,600
Speaker 1: have millions of views, and TikTok Shop's own metrics show

744
00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:17,279
Speaker 1: that more than one hundred thousand of these devices have

745
00:44:17,560 --> 00:44:23,000
Speaker 1: been sold. So they're basically these tiny secret listing devices

746
00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:26,759
Speaker 1: so that you can bug your partner's conversations or that

747
00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:30,520
Speaker 1: you can track their locations. Four for Media found a

748
00:44:30,640 --> 00:44:33,880
Speaker 1: handful of accounts promoting these type of trackers, and this

749
00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:36,799
Speaker 1: is a kind of a common TikTok shop thing. There

750
00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:40,239
Speaker 1: are several different versions on TikTok shops, so some.

751
00:44:40,239 --> 00:44:42,239
Speaker 2: Of them people are like, it doesn't even work.

752
00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:44,360
Speaker 1: But that's like a TikTok shop thing where it's like,

753
00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:46,000
Speaker 1: oh yeah, some of them are going to be garbage.

754
00:44:46,040 --> 00:44:49,759
Speaker 1: So once I looked at these videos I just saw one,

755
00:44:50,280 --> 00:44:53,480
Speaker 1: my TikTok algorithm started showing me tons of them. Like

756
00:44:53,560 --> 00:44:57,120
Speaker 1: I watched one of these videos to get a sense

757
00:44:57,120 --> 00:44:59,640
Speaker 1: of it for the show, and now my TikTok algorithm

758
00:44:59,680 --> 00:45:02,000
Speaker 1: is like, oh, clearly's got Bridget's got somebody in her

759
00:45:02,040 --> 00:45:04,959
Speaker 1: life she wants to stalk and track. Yeah.

760
00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:08,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're like, oh perfect, we can. You know, we're

761
00:45:08,480 --> 00:45:10,879
Speaker 2: gonna we're gonna We're gonna sell Bridget all the air

762
00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:14,960
Speaker 2: tags in the world at this point, So this is not.

763
00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:17,520
Speaker 1: An isolated thing. Four or four reported that one of

764
00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:20,600
Speaker 1: the clips that they saw had eighty six thousand, five

765
00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:24,320
Speaker 1: hundred likes and links to that tracker had over thirty

766
00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:27,960
Speaker 1: two thousand sales of the tracker. Another video from the

767
00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:31,359
Speaker 1: same vendor had ninety seven thousand, nine hundred sales, and

768
00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:35,160
Speaker 1: there are thousands and thousands of accounts basically offering the

769
00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:38,440
Speaker 1: same products with a similar branding. In scripts, here is

770
00:45:38,440 --> 00:45:42,200
Speaker 1: something really horrifying. In one of the comments of the videos,

771
00:45:42,200 --> 00:45:45,080
Speaker 1: a user says, quote, I bought some of this and

772
00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:47,239
Speaker 1: put it on the cars of the girls I find

773
00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:51,680
Speaker 1: attractive at the gym. The original poster responds with, okay,

774
00:45:52,160 --> 00:45:53,719
Speaker 1: crying face emoji.

775
00:45:54,120 --> 00:45:57,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the level of stalker discourse. I guess that

776
00:45:57,440 --> 00:45:58,759
Speaker 2: we're that we're at right now.

777
00:45:59,160 --> 00:46:04,560
Speaker 1: So the telling these trackers is pretty clearly against TikTok's policies,

778
00:46:04,560 --> 00:46:08,520
Speaker 1: which bans the promotion of criminal activities that may harm people, animals,

779
00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:09,120
Speaker 1: or property.

780
00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:10,360
Speaker 2: But when furl four.

781
00:46:10,280 --> 00:46:12,520
Speaker 1: Media reached out to TikTok about these videos that they

782
00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:17,439
Speaker 1: had seen doing exactly that, Kiktok said, quote, we don't

783
00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:21,160
Speaker 1: allow content encouraging people to use devices for secret surveillance

784
00:46:21,320 --> 00:46:23,480
Speaker 1: and have removed this content and banned the account that

785
00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:26,320
Speaker 1: posted it. We further prohibit the sale of concealed video

786
00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:30,440
Speaker 1: or audio recording on the platform. However, fal for Media

787
00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:35,080
Speaker 1: was able to find many several more almost identical videos

788
00:46:35,080 --> 00:46:37,920
Speaker 1: on the platform the very next day, really raising the

789
00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:40,840
Speaker 1: question of just how proactively the platform is monitoring to

790
00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:41,880
Speaker 1: prevent content like this.

791
00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:45,239
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, because you get into the kind of you know,

792
00:46:45,520 --> 00:46:48,600
Speaker 2: PR piece of it, which is like the TikTok comms

793
00:46:48,640 --> 00:46:51,080
Speaker 2: team got together and they were like, we're going to

794
00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:52,920
Speaker 2: release a statement that we don't condone this stuff and

795
00:46:52,960 --> 00:46:55,520
Speaker 2: it's in our fine print and YadA, YadA, YadA. But

796
00:46:55,760 --> 00:47:00,920
Speaker 2: if that doesn't then translate into actual accountability or regulation

797
00:47:01,080 --> 00:47:04,279
Speaker 2: of this, then you just get into talking points right

798
00:47:04,360 --> 00:47:08,920
Speaker 2: like them, we're just talking about talking points when what

799
00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:13,160
Speaker 2: these products are doing in there and their promotion and

800
00:47:13,440 --> 00:47:20,160
Speaker 2: certainly promotion that is done algorithmically right to reach exponentially

801
00:47:20,160 --> 00:47:25,040
Speaker 2: more and more people, there's a real danger there. I mean,

802
00:47:25,080 --> 00:47:28,880
Speaker 2: this is this is truly a way that can that

803
00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:34,040
Speaker 2: can facilitate great personal harm to people, let alone you know,

804
00:47:34,120 --> 00:47:37,879
Speaker 2: loss of privacy. But uh yeah, I think you kind

805
00:47:37,880 --> 00:47:41,560
Speaker 2: of get into this like PR speak versus actual accountability

806
00:47:41,760 --> 00:47:42,480
Speaker 2: totally totally.

807
00:47:42,520 --> 00:47:45,040
Speaker 1: I mean you and I have done similar kinds of

808
00:47:45,080 --> 00:47:48,520
Speaker 1: work where you black things to tech companies and it's like, oh,

809
00:47:48,520 --> 00:47:51,279
Speaker 1: we've taken this down, and don't condone it. There's a

810
00:47:51,320 --> 00:47:54,200
Speaker 1: million more up just like it, but don't worry about that.

811
00:47:54,960 --> 00:47:59,000
Speaker 1: And I will say so, using devices like this to

812
00:47:59,320 --> 00:48:02,240
Speaker 1: stop people track people is illegal in a lot of places.

813
00:48:02,280 --> 00:48:05,520
Speaker 1: Eleven states have criminalized the use of GPS trackers in

814
00:48:05,560 --> 00:48:08,520
Speaker 1: their anti stocking legislation. But this is something that I

815
00:48:08,600 --> 00:48:11,239
Speaker 1: found so wild, which is that according to this piece

816
00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:13,879
Speaker 1: in four O four, I guess I didn't. I never

817
00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:16,839
Speaker 1: really thought about it like this apparently is a it's

818
00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:20,640
Speaker 1: a common attitude that this kind of thing like planting

819
00:48:21,040 --> 00:48:25,000
Speaker 1: GPS tracking devices or listing devices on a partner is

820
00:48:25,120 --> 00:48:28,720
Speaker 1: no big deal if you suspect that partner is cheating.

821
00:48:28,960 --> 00:48:32,040
Speaker 1: Four four spoke to Eva Galprin, co founder of the

822
00:48:32,040 --> 00:48:35,480
Speaker 1: Coalition Against Stalkerware and Director of Cybersecurity at the Electronic

823
00:48:35,520 --> 00:48:40,440
Speaker 1: Frontier Foundation, who said that the TikTok videos really reflect

824
00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:44,319
Speaker 1: an extremely common attitude. Quote, you would be amazed how

825
00:48:44,320 --> 00:48:47,759
Speaker 1: many people think that stalking or recording or stalkerware is

826
00:48:47,920 --> 00:48:51,400
Speaker 1: perfectly justified as long as they think their partner is

827
00:48:51,480 --> 00:48:55,240
Speaker 1: up to something like cheating. They also quote this survey

828
00:48:55,320 --> 00:48:58,759
Speaker 1: from twenty twenty one that found that thirty percent of

829
00:48:58,800 --> 00:49:02,319
Speaker 1: the twenty one thousand plus respondents found no problem in

830
00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:06,919
Speaker 1: secretly recording their partner under certain circumstances, and that same

831
00:49:06,960 --> 00:49:09,839
Speaker 1: survey found that twenty nine percent of respondents had been

832
00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:13,439
Speaker 1: digitally stocked or had their location tracked. So I guess,

833
00:49:13,480 --> 00:49:16,120
Speaker 1: as horrible as it is that TikTok would be used

834
00:49:16,120 --> 00:49:18,319
Speaker 1: as a marketplace to sell this kind of thing and

835
00:49:18,360 --> 00:49:21,600
Speaker 1: market it exublicitly for this kind of use case, even

836
00:49:21,600 --> 00:49:24,960
Speaker 1: if it breaks the law, is that there's I guess

837
00:49:24,960 --> 00:49:28,080
Speaker 1: a cultural attitude that that kind of thing is okay,

838
00:49:28,200 --> 00:49:29,719
Speaker 1: which I frankly shocked me.

839
00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:32,800
Speaker 2: Well, I think that our surveillance culture has like gotten

840
00:49:32,840 --> 00:49:36,480
Speaker 2: to the point where there's this assumption that hey, this

841
00:49:36,600 --> 00:49:39,040
Speaker 2: is just what it is now. Yeah, this idea that

842
00:49:39,840 --> 00:49:42,920
Speaker 2: the advancements of technology or what I sound like the

843
00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:46,360
Speaker 2: oldest man ever, the advancements of where we are in

844
00:49:46,400 --> 00:49:49,120
Speaker 2: the fucking world right now, right with like you know,

845
00:49:49,239 --> 00:49:53,080
Speaker 2: these like supercomputers in our in our pockets, that has

846
00:49:53,120 --> 00:49:55,239
Speaker 2: become no big deal. That is just what it is

847
00:49:55,280 --> 00:49:58,319
Speaker 2: to live. That is is you know what it is

848
00:49:58,400 --> 00:50:03,640
Speaker 2: to exist, it is to be human, and therefore, you know, hey,

849
00:50:03,640 --> 00:50:05,239
Speaker 2: what are you really gonna do about it? And so

850
00:50:05,320 --> 00:50:09,280
Speaker 2: you might as well, uh just you know, uh stalk

851
00:50:09,320 --> 00:50:13,200
Speaker 2: people because basically our phones are stalking us anyway, So

852
00:50:13,280 --> 00:50:15,440
Speaker 2: why don't I just put that to uh, you know,

853
00:50:15,560 --> 00:50:19,960
Speaker 2: my my personal use. I think what's even creepier about

854
00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:24,520
Speaker 2: this is bridget what you just said in terms of uh,

855
00:50:24,719 --> 00:50:28,680
Speaker 2: you know, people are saying that it's okay if you

856
00:50:28,840 --> 00:50:35,360
Speaker 2: just suspect your partner of cheating, which just sort of

857
00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:40,840
Speaker 2: minority reports our entire relationships, right, you know, not to

858
00:50:40,840 --> 00:50:45,600
Speaker 2: say that cheating is awesome, but also stalking people is

859
00:50:45,600 --> 00:50:48,480
Speaker 2: is also bad, and so you know, maybe deal with

860
00:50:48,520 --> 00:50:52,720
Speaker 2: your relationship in a different way than than stalking your partner.

861
00:50:53,440 --> 00:50:57,359
Speaker 2: Maybe have I don't know, a fucking conversation with them,

862
00:50:57,440 --> 00:51:01,000
Speaker 2: and maybe not rely on tech to kind of do

863
00:51:01,200 --> 00:51:03,480
Speaker 2: your relationship work for you.

864
00:51:04,040 --> 00:51:06,520
Speaker 1: Ooh, this is I completely agree, and it came up

865
00:51:06,520 --> 00:51:09,319
Speaker 1: in our episode about the tee app where I do

866
00:51:09,560 --> 00:51:14,040
Speaker 1: think that our current culture, where we've got technology and

867
00:51:14,080 --> 00:51:18,320
Speaker 1: surveillance sort of baked into it, has made folks feel

868
00:51:18,400 --> 00:51:22,600
Speaker 1: like you don't need to have honest conversations, be open

869
00:51:22,640 --> 00:51:26,440
Speaker 1: and honest, like I really do. I understand that people

870
00:51:26,520 --> 00:51:28,440
Speaker 1: like I don't like the idea of being cheated on.

871
00:51:28,480 --> 00:51:31,120
Speaker 1: I don't think that cheating is a cool thing to do,

872
00:51:31,239 --> 00:51:38,600
Speaker 1: as you said, but relying on surveillance and technology to

873
00:51:37,800 --> 00:51:44,200
Speaker 1: to like supplement having a conversation, being open about expectations

874
00:51:44,200 --> 00:51:46,520
Speaker 1: in a relationship, being open about what you are and

875
00:51:46,560 --> 00:51:48,560
Speaker 1: what boundaries and all of that. I think that we've

876
00:51:48,600 --> 00:51:50,600
Speaker 1: gotten to a place where if you can just put

877
00:51:50,600 --> 00:51:52,960
Speaker 1: a tracker on somebody, in a listening device on somebody,

878
00:51:53,080 --> 00:51:54,960
Speaker 1: you don't have to do the work of being honest

879
00:51:55,000 --> 00:51:57,799
Speaker 1: and open and vulnerable and having those conversations which can

880
00:51:57,840 --> 00:51:59,759
Speaker 1: be awkward. I think that we're I think that we

881
00:51:59,800 --> 00:52:06,000
Speaker 1: are using technology to to not have to do some

882
00:52:06,040 --> 00:52:08,080
Speaker 1: of the work that comes with being in relationship with

883
00:52:08,120 --> 00:52:08,440
Speaker 1: each other.

884
00:52:08,560 --> 00:52:10,680
Speaker 2: I'll just be honest and say that, yeah, it's like

885
00:52:10,719 --> 00:52:15,080
Speaker 2: the outsourcing of trust to tech exactly exactly, and we

886
00:52:15,160 --> 00:52:21,160
Speaker 2: know that, uh, trustworthy tech pretty hard to come by.

887
00:52:21,560 --> 00:52:25,560
Speaker 1: I mean, if the tap episode was any indication, yeah,

888
00:52:26,280 --> 00:52:29,000
Speaker 1: very hard to come by. This is actually a very

889
00:52:29,000 --> 00:52:31,560
Speaker 1: good segue into one of the last stories I wanted

890
00:52:31,600 --> 00:52:34,480
Speaker 1: to talk about, which is how can you trust what

891
00:52:34,520 --> 00:52:40,520
Speaker 1: you're seeing online from people like Will Smith. So I

892
00:52:40,600 --> 00:52:44,000
Speaker 1: only recently kind of found out that Will Smith is

893
00:52:44,360 --> 00:52:46,400
Speaker 1: kind of on a big comeback tour, and this this

894
00:52:46,520 --> 00:52:47,440
Speaker 1: sort of missed me.

895
00:52:47,520 --> 00:52:49,200
Speaker 2: I didn't know that this was what he was up

896
00:52:49,239 --> 00:52:52,600
Speaker 2: he easy. This alone is shocking news, folks. Don't you

897
00:52:52,640 --> 00:52:56,000
Speaker 2: find that shocking? I genuinely did not know that you

898
00:52:56,000 --> 00:52:58,800
Speaker 2: you shared this story with me, Bridget, you know, a

899
00:52:59,080 --> 00:53:02,680
Speaker 2: little little sausage making behind the curtain here. Bridget gave

900
00:53:02,719 --> 00:53:06,160
Speaker 2: me a heads up on this story before we started recording, folks,

901
00:53:07,040 --> 00:53:11,239
Speaker 2: and I like my jaw dropped, not at what we're

902
00:53:11,280 --> 00:53:13,960
Speaker 2: about to tell you about Will Smith, but just that

903
00:53:14,080 --> 00:53:17,880
Speaker 2: Will Smith is like on a tour where he's like

904
00:53:18,600 --> 00:53:23,200
Speaker 2: performing for crowds. It is just it's just a very

905
00:53:23,600 --> 00:53:27,520
Speaker 2: kind of bonkers thing that I didn't think was happening

906
00:53:27,600 --> 00:53:30,560
Speaker 2: right now. I mean, you know, I will admit me

907
00:53:30,760 --> 00:53:36,160
Speaker 2: following Will Smith as a as a you know, musical

908
00:53:36,239 --> 00:53:40,880
Speaker 2: artist pretty much tapered off after nineteen eighty eight's release

909
00:53:41,000 --> 00:53:44,400
Speaker 2: of you Know Fresh Friends and DJ Jesse Jeff's album

910
00:53:44,440 --> 00:53:47,040
Speaker 2: He's the DJ on the Rapper, which I mean, for

911
00:53:47,120 --> 00:53:50,600
Speaker 2: those who don't know has both parents, just don't understand

912
00:53:50,680 --> 00:53:54,880
Speaker 2: and Nightmare on My Street on that album. So it's phenomenal.

913
00:53:55,040 --> 00:53:58,239
Speaker 2: But like you know, even if I did follow after that,

914
00:53:58,400 --> 00:54:00,360
Speaker 2: I think like by the time he was doing Wild

915
00:54:00,360 --> 00:54:03,960
Speaker 2: Wild West, I was tuned out. And and this is

916
00:54:04,000 --> 00:54:07,040
Speaker 2: this is nothing against will Smith, although sure everything against

917
00:54:07,040 --> 00:54:09,720
Speaker 2: will Smith, I don't care, but like I actually really

918
00:54:09,840 --> 00:54:13,880
Speaker 2: enjoy him as as as an actor. But the fact

919
00:54:14,120 --> 00:54:20,320
Speaker 2: is he's on tour right now in like Europe performing

920
00:54:20,360 --> 00:54:22,560
Speaker 2: and I just didn't think that was that was going on.

921
00:54:22,680 --> 00:54:24,560
Speaker 2: I kind of want to hear from like Chris Rock

922
00:54:24,600 --> 00:54:25,040
Speaker 2: about that.

923
00:54:25,480 --> 00:54:28,680
Speaker 1: So wait, you weren't around for the Willennium.

924
00:54:29,080 --> 00:54:31,960
Speaker 2: I was around for Willennium, but I I didn't I

925
00:54:32,040 --> 00:54:35,360
Speaker 2: didn't care as much. I will say big Willie Style

926
00:54:35,400 --> 00:54:37,800
Speaker 2: has some bangers, and I have to give a little.

927
00:54:37,560 --> 00:54:40,319
Speaker 1: Bit justice for Wild Wild West. It's not as bad

928
00:54:40,360 --> 00:54:42,640
Speaker 1: of a movie as you think. Kevin Klyde is in.

929
00:54:42,719 --> 00:54:44,280
Speaker 2: It and Kenneth Brannaugh.

930
00:54:44,719 --> 00:54:47,360
Speaker 1: Yes, this is a podcast where we try to reclaim

931
00:54:47,920 --> 00:54:51,279
Speaker 1: bad movies. I know, I know producer Mike has a

932
00:54:51,320 --> 00:54:53,000
Speaker 1: little bit of a soft spot for Wild Wild West.

933
00:54:53,000 --> 00:54:54,080
Speaker 2: Have to put you on the spot.

934
00:54:54,360 --> 00:54:56,960
Speaker 1: That's that's I owned it on DVD when I was.

935
00:54:56,920 --> 00:54:57,720
Speaker 2: In middle school.

936
00:54:58,440 --> 00:55:03,600
Speaker 1: Oh hell yeah, Okay, so Will Smith is touring Europe.

937
00:55:04,280 --> 00:55:05,600
Speaker 2: It has not gone well.

938
00:55:05,760 --> 00:55:09,759
Speaker 1: He's gotten lots of like bad press and some very

939
00:55:09,840 --> 00:55:12,440
Speaker 1: cringey videos of him performing in front of crowds, and

940
00:55:12,480 --> 00:55:14,879
Speaker 1: now it has gone from bad to worse because allegedly

941
00:55:15,440 --> 00:55:19,000
Speaker 1: he has been caught using AI to generate like massive

942
00:55:19,280 --> 00:55:24,520
Speaker 1: cheering crowds at his performances. These videos they're like beatle Mania,

943
00:55:24,560 --> 00:55:28,360
Speaker 1: but it's Will Smith. They're they're like it is massive,

944
00:55:28,680 --> 00:55:33,080
Speaker 1: massive crowds, and they have these signs of people that

945
00:55:33,120 --> 00:55:35,760
Speaker 1: people are holding up that say things like your music

946
00:55:35,840 --> 00:55:39,560
Speaker 1: helped me beat cancer. Futurism has a very funny piece

947
00:55:39,600 --> 00:55:43,000
Speaker 1: on this where they've taken stills from the video and

948
00:55:43,400 --> 00:55:46,279
Speaker 1: zoomed in on them and it truly looks like a

949
00:55:46,920 --> 00:55:49,640
Speaker 1: body horror movie if you've seen the movie The Substance.

950
00:55:49,840 --> 00:55:52,239
Speaker 1: No spoilers, but like, that's the level when you look

951
00:55:52,280 --> 00:55:56,960
Speaker 1: at these images, that is the level of obvious AI

952
00:55:57,200 --> 00:56:00,239
Speaker 1: that is going on to generate these crowds. And when

953
00:56:00,280 --> 00:56:04,520
Speaker 1: you really look, it's like the images are ghoulish. The

954
00:56:04,560 --> 00:56:08,600
Speaker 1: crowd scenes that the faces look tormented, they're melting together

955
00:56:08,760 --> 00:56:11,920
Speaker 1: under these Will Smith banners. You know, there's one banner

956
00:56:11,960 --> 00:56:15,200
Speaker 1: that says from West Philly to Wes Swiggy, we heart

957
00:56:15,280 --> 00:56:18,680
Speaker 1: you will. But it's all garbled because it's AI. It

958
00:56:18,840 --> 00:56:21,719
Speaker 1: just looks I mean, it surely looks like coming out

959
00:56:21,719 --> 00:56:24,080
Speaker 1: of a body horror film where all these limbs or

960
00:56:24,120 --> 00:56:28,120
Speaker 1: like melted together in one big Will Smith mass. So

961
00:56:28,239 --> 00:56:30,520
Speaker 1: can I just say that this is the one story

962
00:56:30,680 --> 00:56:34,759
Speaker 1: that I find delightful that we're talking about. I'm kind

963
00:56:34,760 --> 00:56:38,680
Speaker 1: of on everybody's side for this one. Like I don't

964
00:56:39,080 --> 00:56:48,680
Speaker 1: fundamentally care that Will Smith's whatever, PR team, agent, concert promoters,

965
00:56:49,640 --> 00:56:53,400
Speaker 1: whatever it may be, are doing these AI crowds. Like

966
00:56:54,560 --> 00:56:57,440
Speaker 1: something is not offending my soul about that.

967
00:56:57,560 --> 00:56:59,640
Speaker 2: And yes, we should be talking about AI, which we

968
00:56:59,719 --> 00:57:04,320
Speaker 2: talk about, you know, like image generation and how creepy

969
00:57:04,360 --> 00:57:08,120
Speaker 2: that is. And there are severe problems with this about

970
00:57:08,200 --> 00:57:11,960
Speaker 2: disinformation about things that are gonna get people hurt. This

971
00:57:13,560 --> 00:57:17,680
Speaker 2: I find like this is the twenty twenty five version

972
00:57:18,280 --> 00:57:23,320
Speaker 2: of people being upset that the producers of the Peter

973
00:57:23,480 --> 00:57:27,600
Speaker 2: Frampton album Frampton Comes Alive in nineteen seventy six put

974
00:57:27,640 --> 00:57:31,120
Speaker 2: in like extra crowd cheers, Yeah, do you know what

975
00:57:31,160 --> 00:57:34,120
Speaker 2: I mean? Like, don't I don't care? Fucking do you

976
00:57:34,360 --> 00:57:37,080
Speaker 2: mean black and like I'm down, do you know what

977
00:57:37,120 --> 00:57:40,280
Speaker 2: I mean? Like I am, It's a great album. I'm

978
00:57:40,320 --> 00:57:43,200
Speaker 2: glad the crowd noise is there. It also makes like

979
00:57:43,720 --> 00:57:49,400
Speaker 2: different live performances seamlessly intra cut to sound like one concert.

980
00:57:49,680 --> 00:57:53,520
Speaker 2: All I'm saying is like, that's the beauty of editing.

981
00:57:53,600 --> 00:57:57,040
Speaker 2: It's the beauty of a certain kind of art. Like

982
00:57:57,880 --> 00:58:01,120
Speaker 2: the fact that like people are hissed about this, I

983
00:58:01,240 --> 00:58:04,840
Speaker 2: also find delightful. That's the thing. Like I'm kind of

984
00:58:05,120 --> 00:58:07,480
Speaker 2: I think it's a win win for society that not

985
00:58:07,520 --> 00:58:11,320
Speaker 2: only is Will Smith on tour, but that is not

986
00:58:11,600 --> 00:58:16,680
Speaker 2: going well enough to put out genuine video and so

987
00:58:16,840 --> 00:58:21,040
Speaker 2: therefore this like demented technology is being employed and that

988
00:58:21,120 --> 00:58:23,320
Speaker 2: people are calling it out. I think we all win

989
00:58:23,400 --> 00:58:23,720
Speaker 2: from this.

990
00:58:24,120 --> 00:58:25,880
Speaker 1: Oh my god, you also just set me up to

991
00:58:25,880 --> 00:58:29,040
Speaker 1: talk about something that I literally I have thought in

992
00:58:29,080 --> 00:58:31,560
Speaker 1: my head. I wish that someone would ever tell give

993
00:58:31,600 --> 00:58:32,960
Speaker 1: me an opportunity to talk about this.

994
00:58:33,360 --> 00:58:33,840
Speaker 2: You know the.

995
00:58:33,840 --> 00:58:37,000
Speaker 1: Elton John song Benny and the Jets, how he starts

996
00:58:37,040 --> 00:58:39,880
Speaker 1: playing the piano and then every time the crowd. Yeah,

997
00:58:39,920 --> 00:58:42,480
Speaker 1: so that is a beautiful piece of production where they

998
00:58:42,480 --> 00:58:46,480
Speaker 1: have taken audio of crowd noises from a different Elton

999
00:58:46,520 --> 00:58:51,160
Speaker 1: John performance and different audio of crowd noises from Jimmy

1000
00:58:51,480 --> 00:58:54,120
Speaker 1: Jimmy Hendrick's performance. So like when you hear that whistling,

1001
00:58:54,160 --> 00:58:57,160
Speaker 1: that's actually not so that's not a live performance, it's

1002
00:58:57,200 --> 00:59:01,320
Speaker 1: just a beautiful bit of production. And as an audio professional,

1003
00:59:01,720 --> 00:59:03,360
Speaker 1: nobody appreciates that shit more than me.

1004
00:59:03,480 --> 00:59:04,760
Speaker 2: I've always wanted.

1005
00:59:04,800 --> 00:59:06,560
Speaker 1: I've I literally will go to parties and be like

1006
00:59:06,640 --> 00:59:08,480
Speaker 1: us to help. Somebody gives me an opportunity to talk

1007
00:59:08,480 --> 00:59:10,720
Speaker 1: about that Elton John production.

1008
00:59:11,560 --> 00:59:14,120
Speaker 2: I think that's awesome. I mean, right, because Benny and

1009
00:59:14,120 --> 00:59:16,800
Speaker 2: the Jets is on Goodbye Yellow Brick Road, which is

1010
00:59:16,840 --> 00:59:20,640
Speaker 2: a studio album, not a live album, and so right,

1011
00:59:20,720 --> 00:59:24,600
Speaker 2: it's part of the production of that song that it's

1012
00:59:24,680 --> 00:59:27,520
Speaker 2: as if he's playing in front of this crowd, right,

1013
00:59:27,600 --> 00:59:31,120
Speaker 2: And so it's all kind of I don't know, like

1014
00:59:31,920 --> 00:59:33,760
Speaker 2: it's all part of it, do you know what I mean?

1015
00:59:33,920 --> 00:59:36,840
Speaker 2: Like everything's part of it. Will Smith is part of it,

1016
00:59:36,880 --> 00:59:39,120
Speaker 2: Peter Frampton is part of it, Elton John is part

1017
00:59:39,160 --> 00:59:40,840
Speaker 2: of it, and we are part of it. And then

1018
00:59:40,880 --> 00:59:44,800
Speaker 2: I think that there are some uh some stories that

1019
00:59:44,920 --> 00:59:49,720
Speaker 2: like Garner Outrage where I think it's like outrage, yes,

1020
00:59:49,800 --> 00:59:53,200
Speaker 2: for outrage, sake, but also that's what makes you know,

1021
00:59:53,960 --> 00:59:57,760
Speaker 2: people caring about and being critical of art, of celebrity,

1022
00:59:58,000 --> 01:00:01,080
Speaker 2: of information, of what we're being being told and what

1023
01:00:01,120 --> 01:00:04,520
Speaker 2: we're supposed to receive, how we're supposed to feel. This

1024
01:00:04,640 --> 01:00:07,600
Speaker 2: to me is like what it means to be alive.

1025
01:00:07,840 --> 01:00:11,000
Speaker 2: So like, thank you Will Smith, and thank you Elton John,

1026
01:00:11,040 --> 01:00:13,960
Speaker 2: and thank you Peter Frampton and thank you Jimmy Hendrix

1027
01:00:14,240 --> 01:00:18,560
Speaker 2: for like making us feel alive. Hell yes, I love that.

1028
01:00:18,560 --> 01:00:21,120
Speaker 1: That's actually why I wanted to talk about this story,

1029
01:00:21,560 --> 01:00:23,400
Speaker 1: not to be like fuck you, Will Smith, how dare

1030
01:00:23,440 --> 01:00:25,560
Speaker 1: you do this? But it is. I mean, this is

1031
01:00:25,600 --> 01:00:27,880
Speaker 1: such a good context to put it in in terms

1032
01:00:27,920 --> 01:00:34,400
Speaker 1: of I love these clearly technologically manufactured or produced bits

1033
01:00:34,440 --> 01:00:37,720
Speaker 1: of entertainment, and I almost wonder if this is just

1034
01:00:37,800 --> 01:00:40,000
Speaker 1: another another one of those. I mean, that's that's a

1035
01:00:40,160 --> 01:00:41,480
Speaker 1: very a very good context.

1036
01:00:41,920 --> 01:00:44,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I just think, like like I said,

1037
01:00:44,960 --> 01:00:49,000
Speaker 2: I'm I'm not down on the people who are pissed

1038
01:00:49,040 --> 01:00:52,000
Speaker 2: off about this or or you know, moderately pissed off

1039
01:00:52,040 --> 01:00:54,280
Speaker 2: or like calling calling it out like I think that

1040
01:00:54,400 --> 01:00:56,720
Speaker 2: that that's part of it too. That's why it's fun

1041
01:00:56,720 --> 01:00:59,800
Speaker 2: to talk about movies, right, That's why it's fun to

1042
01:00:59,840 --> 01:01:02,080
Speaker 2: talk talk about music, That's why it's fun to talk

1043
01:01:02,120 --> 01:01:04,560
Speaker 2: about TV shows, That's why it's fun to talk about sports,

1044
01:01:04,760 --> 01:01:07,560
Speaker 2: because like, people are gonna feel a certain way. There

1045
01:01:07,560 --> 01:01:11,600
Speaker 2: are things that make us feel and that is like

1046
01:01:11,840 --> 01:01:16,200
Speaker 2: that's being alive, right, like and so yes, when tech

1047
01:01:16,360 --> 01:01:20,080
Speaker 2: is deployed to do certain things that should be called out.

1048
01:01:20,240 --> 01:01:25,160
Speaker 4: Yes, when uh AI can be used just as much

1049
01:01:25,800 --> 01:01:31,440
Speaker 4: to uh, you know, uh facilitate deep, deep harm in

1050
01:01:31,520 --> 01:01:36,400
Speaker 4: terms of disinformation, in terms of uh you know, mechanized

1051
01:01:36,520 --> 01:01:38,120
Speaker 4: slaughter in a certain.

1052
01:01:37,840 --> 01:01:41,040
Speaker 2: Part of the world. That, yes, that is in a

1053
01:01:41,200 --> 01:01:45,280
Speaker 2: trajectory of also talking about Will Smith's AI. But I

1054
01:01:45,440 --> 01:01:48,880
Speaker 2: also think that like just having that discourse and being

1055
01:01:49,000 --> 01:01:54,400
Speaker 2: able to see like that people care is is not

1056
01:01:54,560 --> 01:01:58,760
Speaker 2: in itself bad. I actually think that is fundamentally good.

1057
01:01:59,200 --> 01:02:01,520
Speaker 2: And you know, when it comes to when it comes

1058
01:02:01,560 --> 01:02:05,520
Speaker 2: to the the you know, eight fingered ghoules cheering on

1059
01:02:05,680 --> 01:02:08,000
Speaker 2: Will Smith, I think, you know, like those are my

1060
01:02:08,040 --> 01:02:08,520
Speaker 2: people too.

1061
01:02:08,920 --> 01:02:12,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, in the words of Frampton, do you

1062
01:02:12,240 --> 01:02:13,880
Speaker 1: feel like we do.

1063
01:02:13,960 --> 01:02:14,720
Speaker 2: Fucking right.

1064
01:02:16,120 --> 01:02:20,000
Speaker 1: That the I love listening to that because the crowd

1065
01:02:20,240 --> 01:02:22,280
Speaker 1: is like, I've never heard a crowd like this.

1066
01:02:22,320 --> 01:02:27,560
Speaker 2: The crowd. It's like, do you feel they're losing their minds?

1067
01:02:27,760 --> 01:02:30,400
Speaker 2: Losing their mind? Yeah? Well, and the thing is like

1068
01:02:30,440 --> 01:02:32,880
Speaker 2: when you listen to it, you get it right, Like

1069
01:02:33,320 --> 01:02:36,320
Speaker 2: that's the beauty of Frampton Comes Alive. That like those

1070
01:02:36,360 --> 01:02:39,160
Speaker 2: songs had already been released on his studio albums that

1071
01:02:39,280 --> 01:02:42,440
Speaker 2: like largely no one cared about. Like I mean, he

1072
01:02:42,520 --> 01:02:45,320
Speaker 2: was a star, right, Like he was on tour, right,

1073
01:02:45,360 --> 01:02:47,240
Speaker 2: he was like playing in front of the crowds. But

1074
01:02:47,480 --> 01:02:51,520
Speaker 2: like to do that live album that way. It is

1075
01:02:51,560 --> 01:02:55,200
Speaker 2: still one of the you know, biggest selling live albums

1076
01:02:55,200 --> 01:02:58,040
Speaker 2: of all time. And I gotta say it sounds fucking

1077
01:02:58,120 --> 01:03:02,920
Speaker 2: amazing And when you're listening to it, you know like

1078
01:03:03,160 --> 01:03:06,360
Speaker 2: you are right there along with you know, like baby,

1079
01:03:06,360 --> 01:03:07,000
Speaker 2: I love your Way.

1080
01:03:07,640 --> 01:03:10,760
Speaker 1: Thanks smoke a John, and listen to Frampton Comes Alive tonight, y'all.

1081
01:03:11,040 --> 01:03:14,080
Speaker 2: If there's one thing that I hope listeners walk away

1082
01:03:14,120 --> 01:03:18,040
Speaker 2: from our conversation with Bridget, it's that they should all

1083
01:03:18,160 --> 01:03:22,320
Speaker 2: listen to Frampton Comes Alive Tonight. I'm with you, I'm

1084
01:03:22,360 --> 01:03:22,680
Speaker 2: with you.

1085
01:03:23,080 --> 01:03:26,520
Speaker 1: Before we wrap, I have one quick thought as we

1086
01:03:26,600 --> 01:03:30,120
Speaker 1: head into Labor Day weekend. One, y'all, there has never

1087
01:03:30,200 --> 01:03:32,800
Speaker 1: been a more important time for working people to organize

1088
01:03:32,800 --> 01:03:35,560
Speaker 1: together and stick together and push back against the fascist

1089
01:03:35,640 --> 01:03:38,320
Speaker 1: billionaire class who is trying to take over our country.

1090
01:03:38,720 --> 01:03:41,680
Speaker 1: And to that point too, we got a great ask

1091
01:03:41,680 --> 01:03:43,880
Speaker 1: from a listener named deb deb thank you so much

1092
01:03:43,880 --> 01:03:46,400
Speaker 1: for reaching out about something very cool, which is that

1093
01:03:46,440 --> 01:03:48,840
Speaker 1: if you are going to visit a national park over

1094
01:03:48,840 --> 01:03:52,000
Speaker 1: the long weekend, please snap a few photos and contribute

1095
01:03:52,040 --> 01:03:55,120
Speaker 1: to the Save our Science project. This project is being

1096
01:03:55,200 --> 01:03:58,360
Speaker 1: organized by librarians and archivists who are trying to preserve

1097
01:03:58,400 --> 01:04:01,800
Speaker 1: the signage at our national parks before September seventeenth, which

1098
01:04:01,840 --> 01:04:04,919
Speaker 1: is the Trump administration's deadline to remove signs they find

1099
01:04:04,960 --> 01:04:10,160
Speaker 1: offensive for things like saying slavery was bad. The organizers

1100
01:04:10,200 --> 01:04:13,560
Speaker 1: are asking folks to help document signs at national parks

1101
01:04:13,680 --> 01:04:16,720
Speaker 1: before they are removed. Preserving the history in this way

1102
01:04:16,880 --> 01:04:19,960
Speaker 1: is critical to protecting the legacy of the folks who

1103
01:04:20,040 --> 01:04:23,360
Speaker 1: came before us and built legacies and struggled and fought,

1104
01:04:23,360 --> 01:04:26,320
Speaker 1: and we should be preserving that legacy. You can learn

1105
01:04:26,320 --> 01:04:29,000
Speaker 1: more about the project at Saveursigns dot org. We'll put

1106
01:04:29,000 --> 01:04:30,640
Speaker 1: that link in the show notes. But if you're going

1107
01:04:30,640 --> 01:04:33,560
Speaker 1: to a national park this weekend, please take a picture.

1108
01:04:33,720 --> 01:04:36,760
Speaker 1: Of signs help this great project. Thank you Deb for

1109
01:04:36,760 --> 01:04:40,120
Speaker 1: putting it on our radar. Here here, Nima, thank you

1110
01:04:40,160 --> 01:04:42,200
Speaker 1: so much for being here today. You are a delight

1111
01:04:42,400 --> 01:04:45,640
Speaker 1: as ever, where can folks follow the podcast?

1112
01:04:45,720 --> 01:04:46,200
Speaker 2: Follow you?

1113
01:04:46,320 --> 01:04:49,040
Speaker 1: I guess I don't know that that Citations Needed has

1114
01:04:49,080 --> 01:04:52,840
Speaker 1: a robust social presence, but where can folks check it out?

1115
01:04:53,320 --> 01:04:55,840
Speaker 2: It's not terrible, We're we're not. We're not, you know,

1116
01:04:56,040 --> 01:04:58,880
Speaker 2: totally under the radar. We do exist. You can find

1117
01:04:58,880 --> 01:05:03,000
Speaker 2: the show on wherever you get your you know, finest

1118
01:05:03,040 --> 01:05:05,880
Speaker 2: podcasts or even your worst podcasts. We are everywhere. Just

1119
01:05:06,160 --> 01:05:11,440
Speaker 2: search Citations Needed. We're the ones with like the you know,

1120
01:05:11,800 --> 01:05:16,400
Speaker 2: bracket logo. It's golden black. Can't miss it. But also

1121
01:05:16,400 --> 01:05:18,400
Speaker 2: you can follow us on Twitter and yes I still

1122
01:05:18,400 --> 01:05:22,120
Speaker 2: call it Twitter at Citations Pod. Facebook isn't really a thing,

1123
01:05:22,160 --> 01:05:24,880
Speaker 2: but we're there too, Citations Needed. But you can also

1124
01:05:24,880 --> 01:05:29,960
Speaker 2: support the show through Patreon dot com slash Citations Needed Podcast.

1125
01:05:30,040 --> 01:05:34,840
Speaker 2: That is how we stay independent because we get our

1126
01:05:35,000 --> 01:05:37,560
Speaker 2: listeners to support us through Patreon. But yeah, you can

1127
01:05:37,600 --> 01:05:40,600
Speaker 2: find the show pretty much wherever. You can also find

1128
01:05:40,640 --> 01:05:43,360
Speaker 2: me on Twitter places, but you know, no one uses

1129
01:05:43,360 --> 01:05:44,240
Speaker 2: that platform anymore.

1130
01:05:45,080 --> 01:05:47,840
Speaker 1: And you can follow me on Instagram at bridget Marine DC,

1131
01:05:48,160 --> 01:05:51,680
Speaker 1: on TikTok at bridget Marine DC, and on YouTube. Y'all,

1132
01:05:51,760 --> 01:05:55,040
Speaker 1: we're trying on YouTube. I know it's crians. We're trying,

1133
01:05:55,200 --> 01:05:56,720
Speaker 1: but it's there are No Girls on the Internet.

1134
01:05:56,720 --> 01:05:59,040
Speaker 2: On YouTube. We're doing our best out there.

1135
01:05:59,680 --> 01:06:01,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, Mima, thank you so much for being here, and

1136
01:06:02,000 --> 01:06:03,160
Speaker 1: thanks to all of you for listening.

1137
01:06:03,200 --> 01:06:04,800
Speaker 2: I will see you on the internet.

1138
01:06:09,520 --> 01:06:11,560
Speaker 1: Got a story about an interesting thing in tech, or

1139
01:06:11,640 --> 01:06:13,480
Speaker 1: just want to say hi, You can reach us at

1140
01:06:13,520 --> 01:06:16,200
Speaker 1: Hello at tegody dot com. You can also find transcripts

1141
01:06:16,240 --> 01:06:18,640
Speaker 1: for today's episode at TENG Goody dot com. There Are

1142
01:06:18,640 --> 01:06:20,880
Speaker 1: No Girls on the Internet was created by me Bridget Todd.

1143
01:06:21,200 --> 01:06:24,640
Speaker 1: It's a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed creative Jonathan Strickland

1144
01:06:24,640 --> 01:06:27,360
Speaker 1: as our executive producer. Tari Harrison is our producer and

1145
01:06:27,440 --> 01:06:31,240
Speaker 1: sound engineer. Michael Amado is our contributing producer. Edited by

1146
01:06:31,320 --> 01:06:34,840
Speaker 1: Joey Pat I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If you want

1147
01:06:34,840 --> 01:06:37,439
Speaker 1: to help us grow, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts.

1148
01:06:38,040 --> 01:06:40,880
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check out the iHeartRadio app,

1149
01:06:40,880 --> 01:06:52,520
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.