Speaker 1: From I Heart Radio and Doghouse Pictures. This is Fight Night.
Speaker 1: I'm Jeff Keating. My initial attraction to this story centered
Speaker 1: around Ali's return to the ring and the heist, especially
Speaker 1: since both of these events happened in my hometown. I
Speaker 1: was young and relatively naive, especially in matters of race,
Speaker 1: culture and systematic injustice. So when I first interviewed J. D.
Speaker 1: Hudson in two thousand and two, I never imagined I
Speaker 1: would be getting an education into the two Americas, a
Speaker 1: term often used to denote the different experiences between white
Speaker 1: communities and black and brown communities, and also into the
Speaker 1: worlds of the police and the people of color they
Speaker 1: were assigned to govern. I didn't expect to discover so
Speaker 1: much more about Atlanta, the city I was born and raised,
Speaker 1: and also come to learn that this world of hustlers
Speaker 1: and policemen where Chicken Man and JD were born, was
Speaker 1: just miles away from where I grew up. I was
Speaker 1: in my early thirties when I began pursuing this story,
Speaker 1: and I was ignorant and misinformed about several topics in
Speaker 1: our collective American history. But for some reason, these two
Speaker 1: incredible men trusted me to tell their stories, and I'm
Speaker 1: honored by this opportunity. I was also fortunate to have
Speaker 1: other voices as guides, including our historian Dr Maurice Hobson.
Speaker 1: In this final episode of Reflection, Dr Hobson and I
Speaker 1: explore some of these topics and issues in more depth
Speaker 1: and try to wrap our minds around the nuance and
Speaker 1: complexities of these characters and events. We've again with the
Speaker 1: topic of how the black communities are seen and viewed
Speaker 1: by white communities. The expansion on that conversation really has
Speaker 1: more to do with what White America cannot see. In
Speaker 1: Black America. It's not visible via the naked eye. You know,
Speaker 1: by and large, within black communities, the idea of who
Speaker 1: black people were has always been extremely much more complicated
Speaker 1: within the black community than what White America can see.
Speaker 1: And so in this regard what Husson was referring to
Speaker 1: it he was discussing how he was far more superior,
Speaker 1: far more intelligent than the white police officers that were
Speaker 1: his superior. But you know, he had to kind of
Speaker 1: present himself as not being as such because that was
Speaker 1: a way of survival. Historically, this is known as a
Speaker 1: slave with But what this also does when white men
Speaker 1: begin to work for him, they didn't want to leave
Speaker 1: him because, you know, he was cool, he was fair,
Speaker 1: he was smart, and they understood that. But the way
Speaker 1: in which this works in the larger context, oftentimes, in
Speaker 1: European cultures, the idea of success is based on you know, income,
Speaker 1: or it's based on profession, you know, the kind of
Speaker 1: job that you have. That's not necessarily the case in
Speaker 1: the black community. The black community operates under a different
Speaker 1: set of cultural practices, and so one of the things
Speaker 1: that should be articulated is the fact that these hustlers, uh,
Speaker 1: these gangsters were probably some of the most intelligent people
Speaker 1: that you would meet. But it did not register or
Speaker 1: it was not presented in a way to where White
Speaker 1: America could understand it. Within Eurocentric culture, you know, if
Speaker 1: you're smart, you're supposed to do well in school and
Speaker 1: be Validatorian and go on to college and be rich
Speaker 1: and famous and successful. Well, the truth of the matter
Speaker 1: is that Black Americans will not afford it those opportunities.
Speaker 1: And this goes back to w eb Devoce's double consciousness,
Speaker 1: where Black America always has to see itself through the
Speaker 1: eyes of others, and so there's a folk culture that
Speaker 1: black people understand, which does fully understand the normal economic
Speaker 1: opportunities that are presented by these quote unquote hustlers versus
Speaker 1: you know, the kind of New England pious kind of
Speaker 1: thrift and self help in denying yourself gratification. And so
Speaker 1: Hudson's reference to that really does articulate the way in
Speaker 1: which he's functioning in two worlds. He understands the criminal
Speaker 1: element of this world in a very clear and precise way,
Speaker 1: and he also understands the world of, you know, being
Speaker 1: a professional as a police officer in Atlanta. One of
Speaker 1: the things that I've found fascinating as I was going
Speaker 1: back and listening to episode one was the way that
Speaker 1: this cyclically came back when he first was sworn in
Speaker 1: by Herbertie Jenkins, the chief of police, or at least
Speaker 1: his boss as the end police, and then later went
Speaker 1: on to explain to the audience that Herberty Jenkins became
Speaker 1: one of the most liberal police chiefs in the country.
Speaker 1: So talk about that kind of Here's the word that
Speaker 1: blew me away, Maurice is he said that Herbertie Jenkins
Speaker 1: evol involved. That means you change your character and heart
Speaker 1: to mean, that's that's a that's a strong word. So
Speaker 1: talk about I mean, is it not or do you
Speaker 1: disagree with that? I agree, But you know, I'm listening
Speaker 1: to this and and and for a living, I study people.
Speaker 1: Maybe it wasn't that Herbert Jenkins evolved. Maybe he was
Speaker 1: playing politics in the front end. And the political climate
Speaker 1: in Atlanta changed, particularly in the middle of the nineteen
Speaker 1: fifties when Mayor Bill Hartsville decided to coin and market
Speaker 1: Atlanta as the city too busy to hate. I want
Speaker 1: you to think about it this way. In the nineteen fifties,
Speaker 1: I mean, Montgomery is absolutely rebelling, there's unrest Jackson, Mississippi.
Speaker 1: There's unrest Little Rock, Arkansas, Nashville, Tennessee, Greensboro, North Carolina.
Speaker 1: And so what Atlanta understands is if it presents itself
Speaker 1: as being a moderate city, that it could actually be
Speaker 1: the poster child for race relations in the American South.
Speaker 1: Atlanta in nineteen one is the first Southern city to
Speaker 1: integrate in terms of public schools, in terms of transportation,
Speaker 1: and different aspect of life. And Jenkins is on record
Speaker 1: as saying that plansmen from you know, Florida or Alabama
Speaker 1: or Tennessee, Mississippi. You know the Carolinas, that they would
Speaker 1: be put in jail, they would get their heads cracked
Speaker 1: if they came to Atlanta trying to start problems. You
Speaker 1: also have doing this time is RALPHL. McGill, who is
Speaker 1: the editor for the Atlanta Journal Constitution, who has taken
Speaker 1: a seriously heartlined stance on really presenting Atlanta as a
Speaker 1: city that has moderate race relations. And so I think
Speaker 1: that Herbert Jenkins that he fits into this new refashioning
Speaker 1: and rebranding of Atlanta, and I think he then becomes
Speaker 1: a leader or pioneer in terms of how race relations
Speaker 1: can go. I mean there there are a lot of
Speaker 1: major political figures in the history of the United States
Speaker 1: that have done that. I mean, one that comes to
Speaker 1: mind is Linda Baines Johnson. He ran as a segregationist.
Speaker 1: He's out of Texas, but he does more in terms
Speaker 1: of civil and human rights legislation than any other American president,
Speaker 1: And any movement towards the advancement of democracy is centered
Speaker 1: around someoneline President Lynda B. Johnson. Now we can see
Speaker 1: that same kind of experience with her Jenkins. What I'm
Speaker 1: saying is he may have evolved, but what he may
Speaker 1: have evolved from is not having to play politics as
Speaker 1: much as being a human being. That's fair to say. Again,
Speaker 1: the interconnection between Herbertie Jenkins and j D from early on,
Speaker 1: specifically as it relates to our story, I guess that's
Speaker 1: a better way to put it. You know, this guy
Speaker 1: that's sworn in with this racial slur. J D even
Speaker 1: says at the time, I didn't even think about it.
Speaker 1: I had to reflect back on it. That's kind of unusual,
Speaker 1: and that statement itself. And then as you see, as
Speaker 1: the story progresses, however we would define it, you know,
Speaker 1: evolution or playing politics or whatever. But ultimately, Herbertie Jenkins
Speaker 1: assigns j D, the same cop that he's sworn in
Speaker 1: to lead this case, so obviously they got either some
Speaker 1: kind of bond or trust or respect or whatever it
Speaker 1: is to put him in such a case with such
Speaker 1: a high spotlight. Is that fair to say? It's fair
Speaker 1: to say it. And you know, across the American South,
Speaker 1: I mean particularly, you know, we think about race relations
Speaker 1: in the American South and we see it as a
Speaker 1: sordid relationship between blacks and whites. But people are complicated,
Speaker 1: and one on one they do different things, and maybe
Speaker 1: you know safe to say that Hudson and Herbert Jenkins
Speaker 1: really did just have a bond and there was a trust.
Speaker 1: And also, you know, think of it this way. What
Speaker 1: really maybe happening here is that J. D. Hudson as
Speaker 1: a police officer who had to arrest the young people
Speaker 1: of the Atlanta student movement, you know, at LEPs Diner,
Speaker 1: but he had to do so with dignity and pride.
Speaker 1: And it may be that Chief Jenkins understood that j
Speaker 1: D was the kind of person that could keep the
Speaker 1: black community office back, and see there may have been
Speaker 1: appreciation for that. It was one of those things to
Speaker 1: where because j. D. Hudson had an organic relationship with
Speaker 1: all of the black communities in Atlanta, and Herbert Jenkins
Speaker 1: understood that the black community respected j. D. Hudson. That's
Speaker 1: probably why j D was able to you know, become
Speaker 1: Ali's bodyguard and to be with him seven you know,
Speaker 1: during the time when Ali is here before his fight.
Speaker 1: You know, I've had some reservations about some of the
Speaker 1: phrases and topics that we're discussing, So let's take one
Speaker 1: of those so we can expand on it a little bit,
Speaker 1: which is black on black crime. Just talk a little
Speaker 1: bit about the history of that phrase. Black on black
Speaker 1: crime is a pathologizing kind of term. Oftentimes that came
Speaker 1: into the American English lexicon with other words such as
Speaker 1: inner city which means black, well, welfare queen. They're the
Speaker 1: scripted narratives. And the thing about it is, I want
Speaker 1: you to think about this, only of the United States
Speaker 1: is identifies as of African descent, and the fact that
Speaker 1: someone would throw out black on black crime, it negates
Speaker 1: all of the horror and terror in the violence that
Speaker 1: America has put on all of its citizens, but black, brown,
Speaker 1: Native women, poor people. So to throw that out there,
Speaker 1: it really shifts to blame from what the real culprit is.
Speaker 1: And so when we talked about black on black and
Speaker 1: what that means, oftentimes, you know, black on black is
Speaker 1: presented to kind of take the focus off of what
Speaker 1: America has done in terms of violence towards other communities,
Speaker 1: and it just focuses on a particular group to show
Speaker 1: that black people are their own worst enemies. And it
Speaker 1: doesn't take into account American greed, it doesn't take into
Speaker 1: account segregation, it doesn't take into account sexual assault, and
Speaker 1: trafficking and all of those different things. It doesn't really
Speaker 1: take it to account American history exactly. All right, Let's
Speaker 1: seg to Mohammad Ali. Mom was telling me that Muhammad
Speaker 1: Ali had a real love affair with Atlanta of the
Speaker 1: years well as a result of Ali being able to
Speaker 1: fight here, he endears that relationship with Atlanta. And there
Speaker 1: are at least four things that Ali does with Atlanta
Speaker 1: over his career because they become partners. So Muhammad Ali
Speaker 1: and Atlanta, Georgia create this love affair and what I
Speaker 1: call it is a love story in the Key of
Speaker 1: the Black New South. The Black New South deals with
Speaker 1: the Civil Rights Act of nineteen sixty four and the
Speaker 1: Voting Rights Act of ninety five, which politically changed the
Speaker 1: American South where black people are able to really assert
Speaker 1: themselves politically. And so what all he does is in
Speaker 1: the late nineteen seventies, he comes back to Atlanta to
Speaker 1: help raise money for the Dr Martin Luther King Center.
Speaker 1: He comes back to Atlanta, King's hometown and celebrates Dr
Speaker 1: King in his non volunt direct action by helping to
Speaker 1: raise money. He has a fight in effigy with Maynard
Speaker 1: Jackson to help raise money for this cause. Also, during
Speaker 1: the notorious episodes known as the Atlanta Child Murders, it
Speaker 1: is Ali who gives his money from his own winnings
Speaker 1: to the City of Atlanta. He gives four hundred thousand
Speaker 1: dollars in cash because the City of Atlanta could only
Speaker 1: muster one thousand dollars for an award, so he gives
Speaker 1: that to the City of Atlanta because he says, it's
Speaker 1: shameful what's happening to those children. And then, of course
Speaker 1: in the nineteen eighties, he does come back to Atlanta
Speaker 1: to again help raise more money for the King Center.
Speaker 1: But it's in when he likes to torch for the
Speaker 1: Centennial Olympia that we really see that deal sealed in
Speaker 1: in their relationship. The relationship between Muhammad Ali and Atlanta,
Speaker 1: Georgia is one that deserves considerable research and attention. Ali
Speaker 1: understood that Atlanta given him the opportunity to come back
Speaker 1: and fight, set a stage for him to do what
Speaker 1: he loved to do most and that was, you know,
Speaker 1: be a champion of humanity. Atlanta understanding the bron the brain,
Speaker 1: the brilliance of Ali as not only a heavyweight fighter,
Speaker 1: but as a champion for civil and human rights attached
Speaker 1: to itself and the both the city and Ali merge
Speaker 1: themselves and present it the kind of image of what
Speaker 1: it meant to be rising in the black New South.
Speaker 1: What are some similarities and some tie ins about this story,
Speaker 1: that event you just discussed, that heist from nineteen seventy
Speaker 1: and what we're dealing with now in two thousand and twenty.
Speaker 1: Some of the similarities between the Ali fight nineteen seventy,
Speaker 1: the all black everything heist that takes place after the fight,
Speaker 1: and what we have going now is also a conversation
Speaker 1: around equal protection and due process under the law. Let
Speaker 1: me connect this in a particular kind of way. You know,
Speaker 1: Mohammad Ali was buked in scoring because he was deemed
Speaker 1: as on patriotic because he did not want to adhere
Speaker 1: to policies that would have sent him to the front
Speaker 1: lines to be murdered on behalf of the country that
Speaker 1: didn't love him. And it goes back to the conversation
Speaker 1: I mean with with Ali being a prize fighter, I'm
Speaker 1: pretty sure that white America would have loved to have
Speaker 1: seen him just shut up in box. And you know,
Speaker 1: right now we are in the midst of a pandemic
Speaker 1: where the American President and even the governor in the
Speaker 1: state of Georgia has failed to try to protect people
Speaker 1: from this pandemic. Things such as personal protective equipment ppees
Speaker 1: that is seriously impacted folks with pre existing conditions, who
Speaker 1: are overwhelmingly black and brown, who who don't have access
Speaker 1: to adequate healthcare, they live in food deserts. We see
Speaker 1: the rise of the prison industrial complex and and how
Speaker 1: that works. But what we also began to see here
Speaker 1: is right now with professional sports, you see athletes that
Speaker 1: are taking a page out of Muhammad Ali's book and
Speaker 1: they're standing up. Of course, Colin Kaepernick is going to
Speaker 1: get his due for taking a knee in regards to
Speaker 1: the playing of the national anthem to bring, you know,
Speaker 1: attention to police brutality. You got the NBA players who
Speaker 1: with the Kenosha, Wisconsin police shooting Jacob Blake in the
Speaker 1: back seven time times, who basically say, you know what,
Speaker 1: this is an injustice and they said we're not going
Speaker 1: to play tonight. You have Lebron James and the rest
Speaker 1: of the NBA players who meet with President Barack Obama
Speaker 1: who's able to really fully discuss how they can will
Speaker 1: their power as athletes to be able to make this
Speaker 1: world more democratic. So I mean, we see how Atlanta,
Speaker 1: Georgia is going to make state from arena become a
Speaker 1: place for voting. What we're seeing here is that Ali
Speaker 1: was the kind of world persona. He showed us how
Speaker 1: it should be done. But then on the flip side
Speaker 1: of it is in each in every world and each
Speaker 1: and every time, there's always an informal economy. And there
Speaker 1: are those within all communities, but the Black community in
Speaker 1: particular that feel as if America has never done right
Speaker 1: by black populations, and thus they operate on their own terms.
Speaker 1: And in operating on their own terms, that's why you
Speaker 1: would have a fireball, or why you would have a
Speaker 1: you know, Richard Wheeler, Yeah, short, Papa. I love the
Speaker 1: story of Ola May and her daughters tressing up, going
Speaker 1: to the malls and stealing everything and then obviously using
Speaker 1: it to it. But there are white politicians and white
Speaker 1: people in corporate worlds that are stealing money and breaking
Speaker 1: the law all over the place, and of course they
Speaker 1: it's not looked at in the same regard, or they
Speaker 1: have the finances to hire people to protect them legally,
Speaker 1: or they have the connections politically to protect them from
Speaker 1: certain things. But it's all criminals. Discussed that a little
Speaker 1: bit in nineteen seventy and that hypocrisy in some ways,
Speaker 1: well sure, I mean the founding of this country is
Speaker 1: based on that same kind degree. I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: there were people Native Americans that were that have been
Speaker 1: on this land for thousands of years. And when Europeans come,
Speaker 1: they decide that, you know, they are guys, chosen people,
Speaker 1: and they are going to go from sea to shining sea.
Speaker 1: It's called manifest destiny. And so when this new nation
Speaker 1: was created, the laws were created to keep a particular
Speaker 1: group of people in power, uh, the top five percent
Speaker 1: in power. And as a result of that, when you
Speaker 1: create the laws, you also create the loopholes. When we
Speaker 1: talk about this gangster all of this gangster stuff, what
Speaker 1: we're really talking about as capitalism and greed. I mean,
Speaker 1: that's what America was based on. We're talking about a
Speaker 1: group of hustlers who have figured out how to manipulate
Speaker 1: the system based on how they can, versus bankers and
Speaker 1: Wall Street who is able to manipulate the system of
Speaker 1: money how they can, and then they can get just
Speaker 1: slapped on the wrist. Oh, I didn't know that that happened.
Speaker 1: You're talking about the haves and have knots historically and
Speaker 1: how they have knots have always had to be much
Speaker 1: more creative whereas to have they function in terms of money.
Speaker 1: One of the things that I argue and how I
Speaker 1: teach history is that racism, sexism, classism equals prejudice plus
Speaker 1: the use in the abuse of power. Everyone has prejudice.
Speaker 1: And when I say prejudice, I mean you may not
Speaker 1: like red meat. That's that's your own prejudice. I mean,
Speaker 1: for whatever reason, you may at late meat, or you
Speaker 1: may not like the New Orleans Saints because you just
Speaker 1: don't like them. But the real issue is the use
Speaker 1: of the abuse of power. And what that means is
Speaker 1: if I am a New Orleans Saints fan and you
Speaker 1: are one of my students, Jeff, and I give you
Speaker 1: an F in my class because I have the power
Speaker 1: to use it and abuse it to give you an
Speaker 1: F because I'm holding my prejudice against you. Then that
Speaker 1: creates a problem. And when we talk about the us
Speaker 1: and abusive power of what we're saying is we're talking
Speaker 1: about the creation of policies and policies dictate laws, and
Speaker 1: so the laws of this nation have failed to protect
Speaker 1: the least amongst us, the Black America, Brown America women,
Speaker 1: pool whites, the First Nations, and Native groups l g B,
Speaker 1: t q I. The laws have failed to protect them
Speaker 1: because at the end of the day, this nation was
Speaker 1: based on white Anglo Saxon Protestant male ideas. I was
Speaker 1: just raised with an interest in other cultures, whatever it
Speaker 1: may be. I mean, I'm talking. I mean, you could
Speaker 1: be going from Russia to Asia, Africa, whatever, and so
Speaker 1: I find it interesting that there's a lot of people
Speaker 1: that just aren't interested in other cultures. There's so you
Speaker 1: know what I mean, they're so locked into their own.
Speaker 1: That's what fascinated me with this world. I was like,
Speaker 1: oh my goodness, this is incredible. And the fact that
Speaker 1: it was in Atlanta, Maurice under my nose, in a
Speaker 1: city that I grew up in all these years, and
Speaker 1: a true crime and and literally miles away an you know,
Speaker 1: I'm in Decatur, Georgia. You know a lot of this
Speaker 1: is happening on the west side or the southwest side.
Speaker 1: So anyway, I just I'm constantly reflecting on that, and
Speaker 1: it's just I'm just like And it was different to
Speaker 1: Maurice because a lot of people get obsessed with stories.
Speaker 1: I wasn't obsessed with this. I would move on and
Speaker 1: move away, but this story always seemed to come back
Speaker 1: and grab me and find me and say no, you
Speaker 1: need to tell me. So I'm a static we get
Speaker 1: a chance to tell this story. We don't know how
Speaker 1: time works, we don't know how it will move forward.
Speaker 1: And right now, right here, you're doing this work and
Speaker 1: it is going to be recorded and it is going
Speaker 1: to be released. And the cool thing about it is
Speaker 1: you have a different network that because it's you. Because
Speaker 1: black folks are interested in black history in Atlanta, it's
Speaker 1: also going to teach some something. So you know, when
Speaker 1: someone googles my name, what they know is they know
Speaker 1: I do African American history. They know I do political
Speaker 1: history of American South, they know I do Atlanta. They
Speaker 1: know it's black. They know that about me. So for
Speaker 1: certain demographics, no matter what I do, they're like, I
Speaker 1: don't want to hear what he has to say because
Speaker 1: he's gonna come with that leftist, extremist kind of stuff. Whatever,
Speaker 1: whether it is that or not doesn't really matter. But
Speaker 1: with you. Your own communities are going to support you,
Speaker 1: and that that's a vast community right there. So sometimes
Speaker 1: it takes a Jewish kid from Decayta, Georgia whose mother
Speaker 1: and father met at the high est and whose dad
Speaker 1: is picking up his sister and nieces. Woman. I mean, hey,
Speaker 1: you were born for this, I mean the meeting of
Speaker 1: your parents and what all this stuff does, and it
Speaker 1: comes back to you. You've chosen for this and I
Speaker 1: look forward to, you know, helping you promote this kind
Speaker 1: of story. But you're the right clearly, you're the right
Speaker 1: person for the job, because we were out here talking
Speaker 1: about it. I'm saying that to say that I'm not
Speaker 1: promoting time or chance, but I do believe that there's
Speaker 1: something bigger working. You know, when you do these types
Speaker 1: of pieces, documentaries, these limited podcasts, you have this material.
Speaker 1: You're trying to find this story and what we realized
Speaker 1: is it really is about this friendship that developed between
Speaker 1: this white Jewish Southern kid from Decatur and this black
Speaker 1: hustler turn preacher from Atlanta. And just over time, I
Speaker 1: mean I go in, you know, to track down this story,
Speaker 1: Maurice and to tell it because I'm so excited because
Speaker 1: i love true crime so much. But ultimately, I'm having
Speaker 1: dinner with Gordon Williams and his family. I'm meeting his children,
Speaker 1: We're going to film premiers together. He's meeting my family,
Speaker 1: He's meeting my wife and kids. So I mean, it
Speaker 1: really develops into this friendship. What starts as research and
Speaker 1: an education just turns into something so much more. Listen, man,
Speaker 1: it is always a beautiful thing. You know the old
Speaker 1: A Team show Hannibal used to say, I just love
Speaker 1: when a plan comes together. But what you are exemplifying
Speaker 1: and what you embody is what we call research to practice.
Speaker 1: It's not just about the story. You have thoroughly immersed
Speaker 1: yourself so truly understand this. And basically you have this
Speaker 1: story in your mind. You're connecting with all of those
Speaker 1: to make sure that the story is told correctly. And
Speaker 1: now you're able to take what's in your mind and
Speaker 1: present it to the rest of the world so they
Speaker 1: can see the story there. And also it's it's the
Speaker 1: background in history and the situation they're in. I mean,
Speaker 1: you say, oh, these people are criminal, but you've got
Speaker 1: to look at the four hundred years that fall behind him,
Speaker 1: and you've got to look at the education that's afford
Speaker 1: them and key ingredient in all humanity, which is survival.
Speaker 1: Some people are just trying to survive for their families.
Speaker 1: And and so he really got and then what we
Speaker 1: ultimately must do is we have to look at each person,
Speaker 1: not by the face and not that a skinned but
Speaker 1: there's a name, and there's a storage everyway. This is
Speaker 1: Gordon Williams Senior. This is his story, and there this
Speaker 1: is J. D. Hudson. And so not every cop is
Speaker 1: going to be the same. Every hustler is going to
Speaker 1: be the same. And you know, wherever we go anywhere,
Speaker 1: there's going to be a name to the face of
Speaker 1: the story that we're telling. And that's vital. There's a
Speaker 1: really good book called The Warmth of other Sons by
Speaker 1: Isabella Wilkerson, and one of the stories he tells is
Speaker 1: about this black family in Limestone, Alabama, which is North Alabama,
Speaker 1: and how the youngest child was a feeble child and
Speaker 1: he would never be suited to do farm work because
Speaker 1: he was just a small framed feeble child. And so
Speaker 1: they tell the story on how this family moves north.
Speaker 1: I think they moved to Ohio because there was southern
Speaker 1: and there was not a lot of education. When the
Speaker 1: youngest child went to school, his name him was James Owens,
Speaker 1: but the teachers named him Jesse because they called him
Speaker 1: j C. They named him Jesse. And so this becomes
Speaker 1: the same Jesse Owens who his feeble body and rule
Speaker 1: Alabama sharecrop and may have not have meant anything, but
Speaker 1: in another environment he becomes the fastest man in the
Speaker 1: world as debunks the idea of white supremacy by beating
Speaker 1: the Nazis. So what I'm saying is that given different
Speaker 1: situations and opportunities, Chicken Man could have been mayor of Columbus, Ohio,
Speaker 1: or the head of a multimillion dollar corporation exactly, or
Speaker 1: vice versa. The heads of these corporations could ended up impoverished,
Speaker 1: in prison or whatever it is. So you use the word, well,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of complexity to all of these stories,
Speaker 1: but ultimately this is just a great heist. It's a
Speaker 1: great high it's a great story to tell. Thank you
Speaker 1: for listening to Fight Night. We hope you joined us
Speaker 1: for our next podcast about a professor who conducted over
Speaker 1: fifty interviews with the most infamous mass murderer in South
Speaker 1: Carolina history. It's called pee Wee. Gaskins was not My friend.
Speaker 1: Fight Night is a joint production from My Heart Radio,
Speaker 1: Will Packer Media and Doghouse Pictures in association with Psychopia Pictures.
Speaker 1: Produced and hosted by Jeff Keating. Executive producers are Will Packer,
Speaker 1: James Lopez, Kenny Burns, Dan Bush, Lars Jacobson, and Noel Brown.
Speaker 1: Supervising producer is Taylor Shoyne. Story editors are Noel Brown
Speaker 1: and Dan Bush. Written by Jeff Keeting and Jim Roberts.
Speaker 1: Edited by Matt Owen. Mixing and sound designed by Jeremiah
Speaker 1: Kolanni Prescott. Music written and performed by The Diamond Street Players.
Speaker 1: Additional music by Ben Lovett. Audio archives courtesy of WSB
Speaker 1: News Film and Video Tape Collection, Brown Media Archives, University
Speaker 1: of Georgia Libraries. Special thanks to Dr Maurice Hobson and
Speaker 1: David Davis. Fight Night is a production of I Heart Radio.
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from my heart Radio, check out the
Speaker 1: I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get
Speaker 1: your podcasts.