WEBVTT - Reflection 0:00:00.280 --> 0:00:03.720 From I Heart Radio and Doghouse Pictures. This is Fight Night. 0:00:04.480 --> 0:00:16.280 I'm Jeff Keating. My initial attraction to this story centered 0:00:16.320 --> 0:00:21.120 around Ali's return to the ring and the heist, especially 0:00:21.440 --> 0:00:25.840 since both of these events happened in my hometown. I 0:00:25.920 --> 0:00:30.200 was young and relatively naive, especially in matters of race, 0:00:30.840 --> 0:00:35.839 culture and systematic injustice. So when I first interviewed J. D. 0:00:36.000 --> 0:00:39.800 Hudson in two thousand and two, I never imagined I 0:00:39.800 --> 0:00:44.040 would be getting an education into the two Americas, a 0:00:44.240 --> 0:00:48.320 term often used to denote the different experiences between white 0:00:48.360 --> 0:00:53.239 communities and black and brown communities, and also into the 0:00:53.240 --> 0:00:56.319 worlds of the police and the people of color they 0:00:56.320 --> 0:01:00.840 were assigned to govern. I didn't expect to discover so 0:01:00.960 --> 0:01:04.640 much more about Atlanta, the city I was born and raised, 0:01:05.280 --> 0:01:09.520 and also come to learn that this world of hustlers 0:01:09.560 --> 0:01:13.640 and policemen where Chicken Man and JD were born, was 0:01:13.760 --> 0:01:17.160 just miles away from where I grew up. I was 0:01:17.200 --> 0:01:20.680 in my early thirties when I began pursuing this story, 0:01:20.760 --> 0:01:25.000 and I was ignorant and misinformed about several topics in 0:01:25.080 --> 0:01:29.760 our collective American history. But for some reason, these two 0:01:29.800 --> 0:01:33.880 incredible men trusted me to tell their stories, and I'm 0:01:33.920 --> 0:01:37.880 honored by this opportunity. I was also fortunate to have 0:01:38.000 --> 0:01:43.120 other voices as guides, including our historian Dr Maurice Hobson. 0:01:44.200 --> 0:01:48.160 In this final episode of Reflection, Dr Hobson and I 0:01:48.240 --> 0:01:51.480 explore some of these topics and issues in more depth 0:01:52.440 --> 0:01:55.280 and try to wrap our minds around the nuance and 0:01:55.360 --> 0:02:00.640 complexities of these characters and events. We've again with the 0:02:00.680 --> 0:02:04.640 topic of how the black communities are seen and viewed 0:02:04.640 --> 0:02:16.760 by white communities. The expansion on that conversation really has 0:02:16.800 --> 0:02:19.520 more to do with what White America cannot see. In 0:02:19.560 --> 0:02:23.360 Black America. It's not visible via the naked eye. You know, 0:02:23.400 --> 0:02:26.799 by and large, within black communities, the idea of who 0:02:26.919 --> 0:02:30.040 black people were has always been extremely much more complicated 0:02:30.040 --> 0:02:32.280 within the black community than what White America can see. 0:02:32.520 --> 0:02:36.040 And so in this regard what Husson was referring to 0:02:36.080 --> 0:02:39.440 it he was discussing how he was far more superior, 0:02:39.600 --> 0:02:42.920 far more intelligent than the white police officers that were 0:02:43.000 --> 0:02:45.600 his superior. But you know, he had to kind of 0:02:45.639 --> 0:02:48.760 present himself as not being as such because that was 0:02:48.760 --> 0:02:51.120 a way of survival. Historically, this is known as a 0:02:51.160 --> 0:02:54.040 slave with But what this also does when white men 0:02:54.080 --> 0:02:55.880 begin to work for him, they didn't want to leave 0:02:55.960 --> 0:02:58.280 him because, you know, he was cool, he was fair, 0:02:58.400 --> 0:03:01.280 he was smart, and they understood that. But the way 0:03:01.280 --> 0:03:04.760 in which this works in the larger context, oftentimes, in 0:03:05.040 --> 0:03:09.120 European cultures, the idea of success is based on you know, income, 0:03:09.200 --> 0:03:11.840 or it's based on profession, you know, the kind of 0:03:11.919 --> 0:03:14.560 job that you have. That's not necessarily the case in 0:03:14.600 --> 0:03:18.400 the black community. The black community operates under a different 0:03:18.400 --> 0:03:22.000 set of cultural practices, and so one of the things 0:03:22.080 --> 0:03:25.400 that should be articulated is the fact that these hustlers, uh, 0:03:25.480 --> 0:03:29.000 these gangsters were probably some of the most intelligent people 0:03:29.560 --> 0:03:31.920 that you would meet. But it did not register or 0:03:32.120 --> 0:03:34.239 it was not presented in a way to where White 0:03:34.240 --> 0:03:38.680 America could understand it. Within Eurocentric culture, you know, if 0:03:38.680 --> 0:03:40.440 you're smart, you're supposed to do well in school and 0:03:40.440 --> 0:03:42.880 be Validatorian and go on to college and be rich 0:03:42.920 --> 0:03:46.280 and famous and successful. Well, the truth of the matter 0:03:46.320 --> 0:03:48.680 is that Black Americans will not afford it those opportunities. 0:03:49.000 --> 0:03:51.760 And this goes back to w eb Devoce's double consciousness, 0:03:51.880 --> 0:03:53.960 where Black America always has to see itself through the 0:03:54.000 --> 0:03:55.880 eyes of others, and so there's a folk culture that 0:03:55.920 --> 0:04:01.320 black people understand, which does fully understand the normal economic 0:04:01.400 --> 0:04:05.760 opportunities that are presented by these quote unquote hustlers versus 0:04:05.880 --> 0:04:09.240 you know, the kind of New England pious kind of 0:04:09.440 --> 0:04:13.800 thrift and self help in denying yourself gratification. And so 0:04:13.960 --> 0:04:17.880 Hudson's reference to that really does articulate the way in 0:04:17.920 --> 0:04:21.359 which he's functioning in two worlds. He understands the criminal 0:04:21.360 --> 0:04:23.880 element of this world in a very clear and precise way, 0:04:24.120 --> 0:04:26.760 and he also understands the world of, you know, being 0:04:26.760 --> 0:04:29.599 a professional as a police officer in Atlanta. One of 0:04:29.640 --> 0:04:31.800 the things that I've found fascinating as I was going 0:04:31.839 --> 0:04:35.360 back and listening to episode one was the way that 0:04:35.440 --> 0:04:39.360 this cyclically came back when he first was sworn in 0:04:39.520 --> 0:04:42.400 by Herbertie Jenkins, the chief of police, or at least 0:04:42.480 --> 0:04:46.400 his boss as the end police, and then later went 0:04:46.440 --> 0:04:49.960 on to explain to the audience that Herberty Jenkins became 0:04:50.000 --> 0:04:53.039 one of the most liberal police chiefs in the country. 0:04:53.160 --> 0:04:56.520 So talk about that kind of Here's the word that 0:04:56.560 --> 0:04:59.640 blew me away, Maurice is he said that Herbertie Jenkins 0:04:59.640 --> 0:05:02.279 evol involved. That means you change your character and heart 0:05:02.320 --> 0:05:05.320 to mean, that's that's a that's a strong word. So 0:05:05.440 --> 0:05:07.680 talk about I mean, is it not or do you 0:05:07.760 --> 0:05:11.240 disagree with that? I agree, But you know, I'm listening 0:05:11.240 --> 0:05:13.520 to this and and and for a living, I study people. 0:05:13.920 --> 0:05:17.919 Maybe it wasn't that Herbert Jenkins evolved. Maybe he was 0:05:17.920 --> 0:05:20.800 playing politics in the front end. And the political climate 0:05:20.800 --> 0:05:23.800 in Atlanta changed, particularly in the middle of the nineteen 0:05:23.839 --> 0:05:28.520 fifties when Mayor Bill Hartsville decided to coin and market 0:05:28.560 --> 0:05:31.360 Atlanta as the city too busy to hate. I want 0:05:31.400 --> 0:05:33.720 you to think about it this way. In the nineteen fifties, 0:05:33.720 --> 0:05:39.360 I mean, Montgomery is absolutely rebelling, there's unrest Jackson, Mississippi. 0:05:39.400 --> 0:05:43.839 There's unrest Little Rock, Arkansas, Nashville, Tennessee, Greensboro, North Carolina. 0:05:44.080 --> 0:05:47.479 And so what Atlanta understands is if it presents itself 0:05:47.560 --> 0:05:50.039 as being a moderate city, that it could actually be 0:05:50.120 --> 0:05:52.440 the poster child for race relations in the American South. 0:05:52.839 --> 0:05:55.800 Atlanta in nineteen one is the first Southern city to 0:05:55.920 --> 0:05:59.040 integrate in terms of public schools, in terms of transportation, 0:05:59.240 --> 0:06:02.839 and different aspect of life. And Jenkins is on record 0:06:03.080 --> 0:06:07.720 as saying that plansmen from you know, Florida or Alabama 0:06:07.839 --> 0:06:11.280 or Tennessee, Mississippi. You know the Carolinas, that they would 0:06:11.320 --> 0:06:13.000 be put in jail, they would get their heads cracked 0:06:13.000 --> 0:06:15.400 if they came to Atlanta trying to start problems. You 0:06:15.480 --> 0:06:17.760 also have doing this time is RALPHL. McGill, who is 0:06:17.800 --> 0:06:20.920 the editor for the Atlanta Journal Constitution, who has taken 0:06:20.960 --> 0:06:24.760 a seriously heartlined stance on really presenting Atlanta as a 0:06:24.800 --> 0:06:28.479 city that has moderate race relations. And so I think 0:06:28.520 --> 0:06:34.480 that Herbert Jenkins that he fits into this new refashioning 0:06:34.480 --> 0:06:37.640 and rebranding of Atlanta, and I think he then becomes 0:06:37.680 --> 0:06:41.440 a leader or pioneer in terms of how race relations 0:06:41.520 --> 0:06:43.400 can go. I mean there there are a lot of 0:06:43.560 --> 0:06:46.479 major political figures in the history of the United States 0:06:46.480 --> 0:06:47.640 that have done that. I mean, one that comes to 0:06:47.640 --> 0:06:50.560 mind is Linda Baines Johnson. He ran as a segregationist. 0:06:50.640 --> 0:06:53.040 He's out of Texas, but he does more in terms 0:06:53.040 --> 0:06:56.200 of civil and human rights legislation than any other American president, 0:06:56.400 --> 0:07:00.760 And any movement towards the advancement of democracy is centered 0:07:00.800 --> 0:07:03.719 around someoneline President Lynda B. Johnson. Now we can see 0:07:03.720 --> 0:07:07.360 that same kind of experience with her Jenkins. What I'm 0:07:07.400 --> 0:07:10.040 saying is he may have evolved, but what he may 0:07:10.080 --> 0:07:12.200 have evolved from is not having to play politics as 0:07:12.280 --> 0:07:15.800 much as being a human being. That's fair to say. Again, 0:07:16.240 --> 0:07:20.120 the interconnection between Herbertie Jenkins and j D from early on, 0:07:20.280 --> 0:07:22.680 specifically as it relates to our story, I guess that's 0:07:22.680 --> 0:07:24.320 a better way to put it. You know, this guy 0:07:24.400 --> 0:07:28.560 that's sworn in with this racial slur. J D even 0:07:28.600 --> 0:07:30.400 says at the time, I didn't even think about it. 0:07:30.440 --> 0:07:33.400 I had to reflect back on it. That's kind of unusual, 0:07:33.440 --> 0:07:36.960 and that statement itself. And then as you see, as 0:07:37.000 --> 0:07:40.560 the story progresses, however we would define it, you know, 0:07:40.600 --> 0:07:44.640 evolution or playing politics or whatever. But ultimately, Herbertie Jenkins 0:07:44.680 --> 0:07:48.120 assigns j D, the same cop that he's sworn in 0:07:48.200 --> 0:07:50.320 to lead this case, so obviously they got either some 0:07:50.400 --> 0:07:53.920 kind of bond or trust or respect or whatever it 0:07:54.040 --> 0:07:57.120 is to put him in such a case with such 0:07:57.120 --> 0:08:00.240 a high spotlight. Is that fair to say? It's fair 0:08:00.280 --> 0:08:02.360 to say it. And you know, across the American South, 0:08:02.480 --> 0:08:04.800 I mean particularly, you know, we think about race relations 0:08:04.800 --> 0:08:06.200 in the American South and we see it as a 0:08:06.280 --> 0:08:09.800 sordid relationship between blacks and whites. But people are complicated, 0:08:09.840 --> 0:08:12.000 and one on one they do different things, and maybe 0:08:12.120 --> 0:08:15.320 you know safe to say that Hudson and Herbert Jenkins 0:08:15.480 --> 0:08:17.760 really did just have a bond and there was a trust. 0:08:17.920 --> 0:08:20.160 And also, you know, think of it this way. What 0:08:20.360 --> 0:08:23.920 really maybe happening here is that J. D. Hudson as 0:08:23.920 --> 0:08:27.120 a police officer who had to arrest the young people 0:08:27.200 --> 0:08:30.320 of the Atlanta student movement, you know, at LEPs Diner, 0:08:30.480 --> 0:08:32.480 but he had to do so with dignity and pride. 0:08:32.520 --> 0:08:37.480 And it may be that Chief Jenkins understood that j 0:08:37.679 --> 0:08:41.280 D was the kind of person that could keep the 0:08:41.320 --> 0:08:44.920 black community office back, and see there may have been 0:08:44.960 --> 0:08:47.360 appreciation for that. It was one of those things to 0:08:47.440 --> 0:08:51.480 where because j. D. Hudson had an organic relationship with 0:08:51.520 --> 0:08:54.720 all of the black communities in Atlanta, and Herbert Jenkins 0:08:54.840 --> 0:08:59.320 understood that the black community respected j. D. Hudson. That's 0:08:59.440 --> 0:09:02.920 probably why j D was able to you know, become 0:09:02.960 --> 0:09:05.840 Ali's bodyguard and to be with him seven you know, 0:09:05.920 --> 0:09:07.720 during the time when Ali is here before his fight. 0:09:20.480 --> 0:09:22.640 You know, I've had some reservations about some of the 0:09:22.760 --> 0:09:25.840 phrases and topics that we're discussing, So let's take one 0:09:25.840 --> 0:09:28.560 of those so we can expand on it a little bit, 0:09:28.840 --> 0:09:32.280 which is black on black crime. Just talk a little 0:09:32.280 --> 0:09:35.600 bit about the history of that phrase. Black on black 0:09:35.600 --> 0:09:41.160 crime is a pathologizing kind of term. Oftentimes that came 0:09:41.320 --> 0:09:46.559 into the American English lexicon with other words such as 0:09:46.600 --> 0:09:50.600 inner city which means black, well, welfare queen. They're the 0:09:50.760 --> 0:09:53.719 scripted narratives. And the thing about it is, I want 0:09:53.760 --> 0:09:56.640 you to think about this, only of the United States 0:09:56.720 --> 0:10:00.920 is identifies as of African descent, and the fact that 0:10:00.960 --> 0:10:04.760 someone would throw out black on black crime, it negates 0:10:04.840 --> 0:10:07.720 all of the horror and terror in the violence that 0:10:07.760 --> 0:10:11.080 America has put on all of its citizens, but black, brown, 0:10:11.679 --> 0:10:16.280 Native women, poor people. So to throw that out there, 0:10:16.360 --> 0:10:19.520 it really shifts to blame from what the real culprit is. 0:10:19.760 --> 0:10:22.240 And so when we talked about black on black and 0:10:22.280 --> 0:10:25.840 what that means, oftentimes, you know, black on black is 0:10:25.880 --> 0:10:30.360 presented to kind of take the focus off of what 0:10:30.480 --> 0:10:33.840 America has done in terms of violence towards other communities, 0:10:34.080 --> 0:10:37.480 and it just focuses on a particular group to show 0:10:37.520 --> 0:10:40.400 that black people are their own worst enemies. And it 0:10:40.440 --> 0:10:43.000 doesn't take into account American greed, it doesn't take into 0:10:43.040 --> 0:10:46.480 account segregation, it doesn't take into account sexual assault, and 0:10:46.520 --> 0:10:49.160 trafficking and all of those different things. It doesn't really 0:10:49.160 --> 0:10:52.840 take it to account American history exactly. All right, Let's 0:10:52.920 --> 0:10:56.880 seg to Mohammad Ali. Mom was telling me that Muhammad 0:10:56.960 --> 0:11:00.160 Ali had a real love affair with Atlanta of the 0:11:00.240 --> 0:11:03.960 years well as a result of Ali being able to 0:11:04.000 --> 0:11:07.240 fight here, he endears that relationship with Atlanta. And there 0:11:07.280 --> 0:11:10.200 are at least four things that Ali does with Atlanta 0:11:10.280 --> 0:11:14.040 over his career because they become partners. So Muhammad Ali 0:11:14.160 --> 0:11:16.840 and Atlanta, Georgia create this love affair and what I 0:11:16.880 --> 0:11:18.880 call it is a love story in the Key of 0:11:18.920 --> 0:11:21.920 the Black New South. The Black New South deals with 0:11:22.000 --> 0:11:24.160 the Civil Rights Act of nineteen sixty four and the 0:11:24.200 --> 0:11:27.160 Voting Rights Act of ninety five, which politically changed the 0:11:27.160 --> 0:11:29.840 American South where black people are able to really assert 0:11:29.880 --> 0:11:33.720 themselves politically. And so what all he does is in 0:11:33.800 --> 0:11:36.920 the late nineteen seventies, he comes back to Atlanta to 0:11:37.000 --> 0:11:39.839 help raise money for the Dr Martin Luther King Center. 0:11:40.000 --> 0:11:43.920 He comes back to Atlanta, King's hometown and celebrates Dr 0:11:44.040 --> 0:11:45.959 King in his non volunt direct action by helping to 0:11:46.000 --> 0:11:48.720 raise money. He has a fight in effigy with Maynard 0:11:48.800 --> 0:11:52.160 Jackson to help raise money for this cause. Also, during 0:11:52.200 --> 0:11:56.560 the notorious episodes known as the Atlanta Child Murders, it 0:11:56.679 --> 0:11:59.640 is Ali who gives his money from his own winnings 0:11:59.760 --> 0:12:01.880 to the City of Atlanta. He gives four hundred thousand 0:12:01.880 --> 0:12:04.679 dollars in cash because the City of Atlanta could only 0:12:04.760 --> 0:12:08.280 muster one thousand dollars for an award, so he gives 0:12:08.280 --> 0:12:10.560 that to the City of Atlanta because he says, it's 0:12:10.600 --> 0:12:13.640 shameful what's happening to those children. And then, of course 0:12:13.640 --> 0:12:16.000 in the nineteen eighties, he does come back to Atlanta 0:12:16.320 --> 0:12:18.640 to again help raise more money for the King Center. 0:12:19.280 --> 0:12:23.480 But it's in when he likes to torch for the 0:12:23.520 --> 0:12:28.439 Centennial Olympia that we really see that deal sealed in 0:12:28.440 --> 0:12:32.160 in their relationship. The relationship between Muhammad Ali and Atlanta, 0:12:32.200 --> 0:12:36.400 Georgia is one that deserves considerable research and attention. Ali 0:12:36.480 --> 0:12:39.080 understood that Atlanta given him the opportunity to come back 0:12:39.080 --> 0:12:42.880 and fight, set a stage for him to do what 0:12:42.920 --> 0:12:45.480 he loved to do most and that was, you know, 0:12:45.960 --> 0:12:51.880 be a champion of humanity. Atlanta understanding the bron the brain, 0:12:52.120 --> 0:12:55.640 the brilliance of Ali as not only a heavyweight fighter, 0:12:56.000 --> 0:12:59.920 but as a champion for civil and human rights attached 0:13:00.040 --> 0:13:03.000 to itself and the both the city and Ali merge 0:13:03.040 --> 0:13:08.720 themselves and present it the kind of image of what 0:13:08.840 --> 0:13:11.880 it meant to be rising in the black New South. 0:13:12.559 --> 0:13:17.600 What are some similarities and some tie ins about this story, 0:13:18.000 --> 0:13:22.080 that event you just discussed, that heist from nineteen seventy 0:13:22.200 --> 0:13:27.199 and what we're dealing with now in two thousand and twenty. 0:13:28.600 --> 0:13:32.640 Some of the similarities between the Ali fight nineteen seventy, 0:13:32.760 --> 0:13:36.920 the all black everything heist that takes place after the fight, 0:13:37.280 --> 0:13:41.080 and what we have going now is also a conversation 0:13:41.120 --> 0:13:43.920 around equal protection and due process under the law. Let 0:13:43.920 --> 0:13:45.960 me connect this in a particular kind of way. You know, 0:13:46.000 --> 0:13:49.640 Mohammad Ali was buked in scoring because he was deemed 0:13:49.640 --> 0:13:53.920 as on patriotic because he did not want to adhere 0:13:53.960 --> 0:13:56.360 to policies that would have sent him to the front 0:13:56.400 --> 0:13:58.360 lines to be murdered on behalf of the country that 0:13:58.360 --> 0:14:00.800 didn't love him. And it goes back to the conversation 0:14:00.840 --> 0:14:03.079 I mean with with Ali being a prize fighter, I'm 0:14:03.080 --> 0:14:04.840 pretty sure that white America would have loved to have 0:14:04.840 --> 0:14:07.800 seen him just shut up in box. And you know, 0:14:07.920 --> 0:14:10.160 right now we are in the midst of a pandemic 0:14:10.280 --> 0:14:13.040 where the American President and even the governor in the 0:14:13.120 --> 0:14:16.960 state of Georgia has failed to try to protect people 0:14:17.080 --> 0:14:21.320 from this pandemic. Things such as personal protective equipment ppees 0:14:21.560 --> 0:14:25.640 that is seriously impacted folks with pre existing conditions, who 0:14:25.680 --> 0:14:28.240 are overwhelmingly black and brown, who who don't have access 0:14:28.240 --> 0:14:31.160 to adequate healthcare, they live in food deserts. We see 0:14:31.200 --> 0:14:34.320 the rise of the prison industrial complex and and how 0:14:34.360 --> 0:14:37.280 that works. But what we also began to see here 0:14:37.360 --> 0:14:40.560 is right now with professional sports, you see athletes that 0:14:40.600 --> 0:14:43.640 are taking a page out of Muhammad Ali's book and 0:14:43.680 --> 0:14:46.480 they're standing up. Of course, Colin Kaepernick is going to 0:14:46.520 --> 0:14:49.240 get his due for taking a knee in regards to 0:14:49.480 --> 0:14:51.480 the playing of the national anthem to bring, you know, 0:14:51.520 --> 0:14:55.360 attention to police brutality. You got the NBA players who 0:14:55.520 --> 0:14:59.320 with the Kenosha, Wisconsin police shooting Jacob Blake in the 0:14:59.320 --> 0:15:02.280 back seven time times, who basically say, you know what, 0:15:03.240 --> 0:15:05.520 this is an injustice and they said we're not going 0:15:05.560 --> 0:15:08.280 to play tonight. You have Lebron James and the rest 0:15:08.320 --> 0:15:12.120 of the NBA players who meet with President Barack Obama 0:15:12.160 --> 0:15:16.720 who's able to really fully discuss how they can will 0:15:16.880 --> 0:15:20.080 their power as athletes to be able to make this 0:15:20.160 --> 0:15:23.280 world more democratic. So I mean, we see how Atlanta, 0:15:23.320 --> 0:15:26.200 Georgia is going to make state from arena become a 0:15:26.240 --> 0:15:29.120 place for voting. What we're seeing here is that Ali 0:15:29.400 --> 0:15:33.160 was the kind of world persona. He showed us how 0:15:33.200 --> 0:15:35.040 it should be done. But then on the flip side 0:15:35.040 --> 0:15:38.520 of it is in each in every world and each 0:15:38.520 --> 0:15:42.360 and every time, there's always an informal economy. And there 0:15:42.360 --> 0:15:47.000 are those within all communities, but the Black community in 0:15:47.000 --> 0:15:50.120 particular that feel as if America has never done right 0:15:50.160 --> 0:15:54.520 by black populations, and thus they operate on their own terms. 0:15:55.320 --> 0:15:57.240 And in operating on their own terms, that's why you 0:15:57.240 --> 0:15:59.240 would have a fireball, or why you would have a 0:15:59.680 --> 0:16:02.840 you know, Richard Wheeler, Yeah, short, Papa. I love the 0:16:02.840 --> 0:16:06.000 story of Ola May and her daughters tressing up, going 0:16:06.040 --> 0:16:09.320 to the malls and stealing everything and then obviously using 0:16:09.320 --> 0:16:14.240 it to it. But there are white politicians and white 0:16:14.280 --> 0:16:18.000 people in corporate worlds that are stealing money and breaking 0:16:18.040 --> 0:16:20.680 the law all over the place, and of course they 0:16:20.840 --> 0:16:23.520 it's not looked at in the same regard, or they 0:16:23.560 --> 0:16:27.720 have the finances to hire people to protect them legally, 0:16:27.880 --> 0:16:31.240 or they have the connections politically to protect them from 0:16:31.280 --> 0:16:34.920 certain things. But it's all criminals. Discussed that a little 0:16:34.960 --> 0:16:38.000 bit in nineteen seventy and that hypocrisy in some ways, 0:16:38.080 --> 0:16:41.000 well sure, I mean the founding of this country is 0:16:41.040 --> 0:16:42.920 based on that same kind degree. I mean, you know, 0:16:42.960 --> 0:16:45.800 there were people Native Americans that were that have been 0:16:45.840 --> 0:16:50.120 on this land for thousands of years. And when Europeans come, 0:16:50.160 --> 0:16:52.680 they decide that, you know, they are guys, chosen people, 0:16:52.800 --> 0:16:56.000 and they are going to go from sea to shining sea. 0:16:56.000 --> 0:16:58.800 It's called manifest destiny. And so when this new nation 0:16:58.880 --> 0:17:01.320 was created, the laws were created to keep a particular 0:17:01.320 --> 0:17:03.840 group of people in power, uh, the top five percent 0:17:03.960 --> 0:17:06.280 in power. And as a result of that, when you 0:17:06.320 --> 0:17:09.399 create the laws, you also create the loopholes. When we 0:17:09.440 --> 0:17:12.199 talk about this gangster all of this gangster stuff, what 0:17:12.240 --> 0:17:14.720 we're really talking about as capitalism and greed. I mean, 0:17:14.760 --> 0:17:16.840 that's what America was based on. We're talking about a 0:17:16.840 --> 0:17:20.040 group of hustlers who have figured out how to manipulate 0:17:20.680 --> 0:17:25.720 the system based on how they can, versus bankers and 0:17:25.800 --> 0:17:28.600 Wall Street who is able to manipulate the system of 0:17:28.680 --> 0:17:31.159 money how they can, and then they can get just 0:17:31.200 --> 0:17:33.480 slapped on the wrist. Oh, I didn't know that that happened. 0:17:33.520 --> 0:17:36.399 You're talking about the haves and have knots historically and 0:17:36.400 --> 0:17:38.200 how they have knots have always had to be much 0:17:38.200 --> 0:17:42.639 more creative whereas to have they function in terms of money. 0:17:43.000 --> 0:17:44.800 One of the things that I argue and how I 0:17:44.840 --> 0:17:51.080 teach history is that racism, sexism, classism equals prejudice plus 0:17:51.119 --> 0:17:54.040 the use in the abuse of power. Everyone has prejudice. 0:17:54.040 --> 0:17:55.760 And when I say prejudice, I mean you may not 0:17:55.840 --> 0:17:58.720 like red meat. That's that's your own prejudice. I mean, 0:17:58.760 --> 0:18:00.480 for whatever reason, you may at late meat, or you 0:18:00.520 --> 0:18:02.600 may not like the New Orleans Saints because you just 0:18:02.760 --> 0:18:04.840 don't like them. But the real issue is the use 0:18:04.880 --> 0:18:07.280 of the abuse of power. And what that means is 0:18:07.560 --> 0:18:10.000 if I am a New Orleans Saints fan and you 0:18:10.119 --> 0:18:12.480 are one of my students, Jeff, and I give you 0:18:12.520 --> 0:18:15.440 an F in my class because I have the power 0:18:15.760 --> 0:18:17.800 to use it and abuse it to give you an 0:18:17.840 --> 0:18:21.000 F because I'm holding my prejudice against you. Then that 0:18:21.040 --> 0:18:22.840 creates a problem. And when we talk about the us 0:18:22.880 --> 0:18:25.000 and abusive power of what we're saying is we're talking 0:18:25.040 --> 0:18:28.679 about the creation of policies and policies dictate laws, and 0:18:28.760 --> 0:18:32.480 so the laws of this nation have failed to protect 0:18:32.680 --> 0:18:35.879 the least amongst us, the Black America, Brown America women, 0:18:36.080 --> 0:18:39.439 pool whites, the First Nations, and Native groups l g B, 0:18:39.560 --> 0:18:42.320 t q I. The laws have failed to protect them 0:18:42.400 --> 0:18:44.800 because at the end of the day, this nation was 0:18:44.840 --> 0:18:59.800 based on white Anglo Saxon Protestant male ideas. I was 0:18:59.840 --> 0:19:03.919 just raised with an interest in other cultures, whatever it 0:19:04.000 --> 0:19:06.240 may be. I mean, I'm talking. I mean, you could 0:19:06.280 --> 0:19:09.600 be going from Russia to Asia, Africa, whatever, and so 0:19:09.800 --> 0:19:13.520 I find it interesting that there's a lot of people 0:19:13.560 --> 0:19:15.919 that just aren't interested in other cultures. There's so you 0:19:15.920 --> 0:19:18.359 know what I mean, they're so locked into their own. 0:19:19.040 --> 0:19:21.439 That's what fascinated me with this world. I was like, 0:19:21.480 --> 0:19:24.159 oh my goodness, this is incredible. And the fact that 0:19:24.200 --> 0:19:26.960 it was in Atlanta, Maurice under my nose, in a 0:19:27.040 --> 0:19:29.199 city that I grew up in all these years, and 0:19:29.240 --> 0:19:32.639 a true crime and and literally miles away an you know, 0:19:32.680 --> 0:19:34.959 I'm in Decatur, Georgia. You know a lot of this 0:19:35.040 --> 0:19:37.280 is happening on the west side or the southwest side. 0:19:37.320 --> 0:19:41.959 So anyway, I just I'm constantly reflecting on that, and 0:19:42.040 --> 0:19:44.800 it's just I'm just like And it was different to 0:19:44.880 --> 0:19:47.640 Maurice because a lot of people get obsessed with stories. 0:19:47.680 --> 0:19:50.879 I wasn't obsessed with this. I would move on and 0:19:50.920 --> 0:19:53.240 move away, but this story always seemed to come back 0:19:53.280 --> 0:19:56.120 and grab me and find me and say no, you 0:19:56.160 --> 0:19:59.160 need to tell me. So I'm a static we get 0:19:59.160 --> 0:20:01.520 a chance to tell this story. We don't know how 0:20:01.600 --> 0:20:03.959 time works, we don't know how it will move forward. 0:20:04.160 --> 0:20:07.439 And right now, right here, you're doing this work and 0:20:07.560 --> 0:20:09.520 it is going to be recorded and it is going 0:20:09.560 --> 0:20:11.600 to be released. And the cool thing about it is 0:20:12.000 --> 0:20:16.399 you have a different network that because it's you. Because 0:20:16.440 --> 0:20:19.360 black folks are interested in black history in Atlanta, it's 0:20:19.400 --> 0:20:21.960 also going to teach some something. So you know, when 0:20:21.960 --> 0:20:24.000 someone googles my name, what they know is they know 0:20:24.040 --> 0:20:26.280 I do African American history. They know I do political 0:20:26.320 --> 0:20:28.480 history of American South, they know I do Atlanta. They 0:20:28.520 --> 0:20:31.320 know it's black. They know that about me. So for 0:20:31.880 --> 0:20:35.320 certain demographics, no matter what I do, they're like, I 0:20:35.320 --> 0:20:37.000 don't want to hear what he has to say because 0:20:37.040 --> 0:20:40.200 he's gonna come with that leftist, extremist kind of stuff. Whatever, 0:20:40.359 --> 0:20:42.320 whether it is that or not doesn't really matter. But 0:20:42.440 --> 0:20:46.160 with you. Your own communities are going to support you, 0:20:46.359 --> 0:20:49.680 and that that's a vast community right there. So sometimes 0:20:49.880 --> 0:20:53.640 it takes a Jewish kid from Decayta, Georgia whose mother 0:20:53.680 --> 0:20:56.800 and father met at the high est and whose dad 0:20:57.080 --> 0:21:00.880 is picking up his sister and nieces. Woman. I mean, hey, 0:21:01.119 --> 0:21:04.399 you were born for this, I mean the meeting of 0:21:04.440 --> 0:21:06.639 your parents and what all this stuff does, and it 0:21:06.640 --> 0:21:09.399 comes back to you. You've chosen for this and I 0:21:09.480 --> 0:21:12.960 look forward to, you know, helping you promote this kind 0:21:13.000 --> 0:21:16.399 of story. But you're the right clearly, you're the right 0:21:16.400 --> 0:21:18.520 person for the job, because we were out here talking 0:21:18.560 --> 0:21:20.480 about it. I'm saying that to say that I'm not 0:21:20.720 --> 0:21:23.440 promoting time or chance, but I do believe that there's 0:21:23.520 --> 0:21:26.040 something bigger working. You know, when you do these types 0:21:26.080 --> 0:21:30.200 of pieces, documentaries, these limited podcasts, you have this material. 0:21:30.240 --> 0:21:32.679 You're trying to find this story and what we realized 0:21:32.840 --> 0:21:37.360 is it really is about this friendship that developed between 0:21:37.359 --> 0:21:42.040 this white Jewish Southern kid from Decatur and this black 0:21:42.520 --> 0:21:47.320 hustler turn preacher from Atlanta. And just over time, I 0:21:47.320 --> 0:21:49.800 mean I go in, you know, to track down this story, 0:21:49.880 --> 0:21:52.600 Maurice and to tell it because I'm so excited because 0:21:52.640 --> 0:21:56.480 i love true crime so much. But ultimately, I'm having 0:21:56.800 --> 0:22:00.560 dinner with Gordon Williams and his family. I'm meeting his children, 0:22:00.920 --> 0:22:04.920 We're going to film premiers together. He's meeting my family, 0:22:05.040 --> 0:22:07.879 He's meeting my wife and kids. So I mean, it 0:22:08.040 --> 0:22:11.919 really develops into this friendship. What starts as research and 0:22:12.000 --> 0:22:16.040 an education just turns into something so much more. Listen, man, 0:22:16.160 --> 0:22:18.360 it is always a beautiful thing. You know the old 0:22:18.440 --> 0:22:21.240 A Team show Hannibal used to say, I just love 0:22:21.240 --> 0:22:24.200 when a plan comes together. But what you are exemplifying 0:22:24.240 --> 0:22:26.800 and what you embody is what we call research to practice. 0:22:27.359 --> 0:22:31.120 It's not just about the story. You have thoroughly immersed 0:22:31.160 --> 0:22:35.280 yourself so truly understand this. And basically you have this 0:22:35.400 --> 0:22:38.320 story in your mind. You're connecting with all of those 0:22:38.359 --> 0:22:40.520