1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:03,720 Speaker 1: From I Heart Radio and Doghouse Pictures. This is Fight Night. 2 00:00:04,480 --> 00:00:16,280 Speaker 1: I'm Jeff Keating. My initial attraction to this story centered 3 00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:21,120 Speaker 1: around Ali's return to the ring and the heist, especially 4 00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:25,840 Speaker 1: since both of these events happened in my hometown. I 5 00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:30,200 Speaker 1: was young and relatively naive, especially in matters of race, 6 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:35,839 Speaker 1: culture and systematic injustice. So when I first interviewed J. D. 7 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:39,800 Speaker 1: Hudson in two thousand and two, I never imagined I 8 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:44,040 Speaker 1: would be getting an education into the two Americas, a 9 00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:48,320 Speaker 1: term often used to denote the different experiences between white 10 00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:53,239 Speaker 1: communities and black and brown communities, and also into the 11 00:00:53,240 --> 00:00:56,319 Speaker 1: worlds of the police and the people of color they 12 00:00:56,320 --> 00:01:00,840 Speaker 1: were assigned to govern. I didn't expect to discover so 13 00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:04,640 Speaker 1: much more about Atlanta, the city I was born and raised, 14 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:09,520 Speaker 1: and also come to learn that this world of hustlers 15 00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:13,640 Speaker 1: and policemen where Chicken Man and JD were born, was 16 00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:17,160 Speaker 1: just miles away from where I grew up. I was 17 00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:20,680 Speaker 1: in my early thirties when I began pursuing this story, 18 00:01:20,760 --> 00:01:25,000 Speaker 1: and I was ignorant and misinformed about several topics in 19 00:01:25,080 --> 00:01:29,760 Speaker 1: our collective American history. But for some reason, these two 20 00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:33,880 Speaker 1: incredible men trusted me to tell their stories, and I'm 21 00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:37,880 Speaker 1: honored by this opportunity. I was also fortunate to have 22 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:43,120 Speaker 1: other voices as guides, including our historian Dr Maurice Hobson. 23 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:48,160 Speaker 1: In this final episode of Reflection, Dr Hobson and I 24 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:51,480 Speaker 1: explore some of these topics and issues in more depth 25 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:55,280 Speaker 1: and try to wrap our minds around the nuance and 26 00:01:55,360 --> 00:02:00,640 Speaker 1: complexities of these characters and events. We've again with the 27 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:04,640 Speaker 1: topic of how the black communities are seen and viewed 28 00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:16,760 Speaker 1: by white communities. The expansion on that conversation really has 29 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:19,520 Speaker 1: more to do with what White America cannot see. In 30 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:23,360 Speaker 1: Black America. It's not visible via the naked eye. You know, 31 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:26,799 Speaker 1: by and large, within black communities, the idea of who 32 00:02:26,919 --> 00:02:30,040 Speaker 1: black people were has always been extremely much more complicated 33 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:32,280 Speaker 1: within the black community than what White America can see. 34 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:36,040 Speaker 1: And so in this regard what Husson was referring to 35 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:39,440 Speaker 1: it he was discussing how he was far more superior, 36 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:42,920 Speaker 1: far more intelligent than the white police officers that were 37 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:45,600 Speaker 1: his superior. But you know, he had to kind of 38 00:02:45,639 --> 00:02:48,760 Speaker 1: present himself as not being as such because that was 39 00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:51,120 Speaker 1: a way of survival. Historically, this is known as a 40 00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:54,040 Speaker 1: slave with But what this also does when white men 41 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:55,880 Speaker 1: begin to work for him, they didn't want to leave 42 00:02:55,960 --> 00:02:58,280 Speaker 1: him because, you know, he was cool, he was fair, 43 00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:01,280 Speaker 1: he was smart, and they understood that. But the way 44 00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:04,760 Speaker 1: in which this works in the larger context, oftentimes, in 45 00:03:05,040 --> 00:03:09,120 Speaker 1: European cultures, the idea of success is based on you know, income, 46 00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:11,840 Speaker 1: or it's based on profession, you know, the kind of 47 00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 1: job that you have. That's not necessarily the case in 48 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:18,400 Speaker 1: the black community. The black community operates under a different 49 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:22,000 Speaker 1: set of cultural practices, and so one of the things 50 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:25,400 Speaker 1: that should be articulated is the fact that these hustlers, uh, 51 00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:29,000 Speaker 1: these gangsters were probably some of the most intelligent people 52 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:31,920 Speaker 1: that you would meet. But it did not register or 53 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:34,239 Speaker 1: it was not presented in a way to where White 54 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:38,680 Speaker 1: America could understand it. Within Eurocentric culture, you know, if 55 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:40,440 Speaker 1: you're smart, you're supposed to do well in school and 56 00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:42,880 Speaker 1: be Validatorian and go on to college and be rich 57 00:03:42,920 --> 00:03:46,280 Speaker 1: and famous and successful. Well, the truth of the matter 58 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:48,680 Speaker 1: is that Black Americans will not afford it those opportunities. 59 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:51,760 Speaker 1: And this goes back to w eb Devoce's double consciousness, 60 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:53,960 Speaker 1: where Black America always has to see itself through the 61 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:55,880 Speaker 1: eyes of others, and so there's a folk culture that 62 00:03:55,920 --> 00:04:01,320 Speaker 1: black people understand, which does fully understand the normal economic 63 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:05,760 Speaker 1: opportunities that are presented by these quote unquote hustlers versus 64 00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:09,240 Speaker 1: you know, the kind of New England pious kind of 65 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:13,800 Speaker 1: thrift and self help in denying yourself gratification. And so 66 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:17,880 Speaker 1: Hudson's reference to that really does articulate the way in 67 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:21,359 Speaker 1: which he's functioning in two worlds. He understands the criminal 68 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:23,880 Speaker 1: element of this world in a very clear and precise way, 69 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:26,760 Speaker 1: and he also understands the world of, you know, being 70 00:04:26,760 --> 00:04:29,599 Speaker 1: a professional as a police officer in Atlanta. One of 71 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:31,800 Speaker 1: the things that I've found fascinating as I was going 72 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:35,360 Speaker 1: back and listening to episode one was the way that 73 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:39,360 Speaker 1: this cyclically came back when he first was sworn in 74 00:04:39,520 --> 00:04:42,400 Speaker 1: by Herbertie Jenkins, the chief of police, or at least 75 00:04:42,480 --> 00:04:46,400 Speaker 1: his boss as the end police, and then later went 76 00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:49,960 Speaker 1: on to explain to the audience that Herberty Jenkins became 77 00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:53,039 Speaker 1: one of the most liberal police chiefs in the country. 78 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:56,520 Speaker 1: So talk about that kind of Here's the word that 79 00:04:56,560 --> 00:04:59,640 Speaker 1: blew me away, Maurice is he said that Herbertie Jenkins 80 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:02,279 Speaker 1: evol involved. That means you change your character and heart 81 00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:05,320 Speaker 1: to mean, that's that's a that's a strong word. So 82 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:07,680 Speaker 1: talk about I mean, is it not or do you 83 00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:11,240 Speaker 1: disagree with that? I agree, But you know, I'm listening 84 00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:13,520 Speaker 1: to this and and and for a living, I study people. 85 00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:17,919 Speaker 1: Maybe it wasn't that Herbert Jenkins evolved. Maybe he was 86 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:20,800 Speaker 1: playing politics in the front end. And the political climate 87 00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:23,800 Speaker 1: in Atlanta changed, particularly in the middle of the nineteen 88 00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:28,520 Speaker 1: fifties when Mayor Bill Hartsville decided to coin and market 89 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:31,360 Speaker 1: Atlanta as the city too busy to hate. I want 90 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:33,720 Speaker 1: you to think about it this way. In the nineteen fifties, 91 00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:39,360 Speaker 1: I mean, Montgomery is absolutely rebelling, there's unrest Jackson, Mississippi. 92 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:43,839 Speaker 1: There's unrest Little Rock, Arkansas, Nashville, Tennessee, Greensboro, North Carolina. 93 00:05:44,080 --> 00:05:47,479 Speaker 1: And so what Atlanta understands is if it presents itself 94 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:50,039 Speaker 1: as being a moderate city, that it could actually be 95 00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:52,440 Speaker 1: the poster child for race relations in the American South. 96 00:05:52,839 --> 00:05:55,800 Speaker 1: Atlanta in nineteen one is the first Southern city to 97 00:05:55,920 --> 00:05:59,040 Speaker 1: integrate in terms of public schools, in terms of transportation, 98 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:02,839 Speaker 1: and different aspect of life. And Jenkins is on record 99 00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:07,720 Speaker 1: as saying that plansmen from you know, Florida or Alabama 100 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:11,280 Speaker 1: or Tennessee, Mississippi. You know the Carolinas, that they would 101 00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:13,000 Speaker 1: be put in jail, they would get their heads cracked 102 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:15,400 Speaker 1: if they came to Atlanta trying to start problems. You 103 00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:17,760 Speaker 1: also have doing this time is RALPHL. McGill, who is 104 00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:20,920 Speaker 1: the editor for the Atlanta Journal Constitution, who has taken 105 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:24,760 Speaker 1: a seriously heartlined stance on really presenting Atlanta as a 106 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:28,479 Speaker 1: city that has moderate race relations. And so I think 107 00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:34,480 Speaker 1: that Herbert Jenkins that he fits into this new refashioning 108 00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:37,640 Speaker 1: and rebranding of Atlanta, and I think he then becomes 109 00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:41,440 Speaker 1: a leader or pioneer in terms of how race relations 110 00:06:41,520 --> 00:06:43,400 Speaker 1: can go. I mean there there are a lot of 111 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:46,479 Speaker 1: major political figures in the history of the United States 112 00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:47,640 Speaker 1: that have done that. I mean, one that comes to 113 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:50,560 Speaker 1: mind is Linda Baines Johnson. He ran as a segregationist. 114 00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:53,040 Speaker 1: He's out of Texas, but he does more in terms 115 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:56,200 Speaker 1: of civil and human rights legislation than any other American president, 116 00:06:56,400 --> 00:07:00,760 Speaker 1: And any movement towards the advancement of democracy is centered 117 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:03,719 Speaker 1: around someoneline President Lynda B. Johnson. Now we can see 118 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:07,360 Speaker 1: that same kind of experience with her Jenkins. What I'm 119 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:10,040 Speaker 1: saying is he may have evolved, but what he may 120 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:12,200 Speaker 1: have evolved from is not having to play politics as 121 00:07:12,280 --> 00:07:15,800 Speaker 1: much as being a human being. That's fair to say. Again, 122 00:07:16,240 --> 00:07:20,120 Speaker 1: the interconnection between Herbertie Jenkins and j D from early on, 123 00:07:20,280 --> 00:07:22,680 Speaker 1: specifically as it relates to our story, I guess that's 124 00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:24,320 Speaker 1: a better way to put it. You know, this guy 125 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:28,560 Speaker 1: that's sworn in with this racial slur. J D even 126 00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:30,400 Speaker 1: says at the time, I didn't even think about it. 127 00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:33,400 Speaker 1: I had to reflect back on it. That's kind of unusual, 128 00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:36,960 Speaker 1: and that statement itself. And then as you see, as 129 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:40,560 Speaker 1: the story progresses, however we would define it, you know, 130 00:07:40,600 --> 00:07:44,640 Speaker 1: evolution or playing politics or whatever. But ultimately, Herbertie Jenkins 131 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:48,120 Speaker 1: assigns j D, the same cop that he's sworn in 132 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:50,320 Speaker 1: to lead this case, so obviously they got either some 133 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:53,920 Speaker 1: kind of bond or trust or respect or whatever it 134 00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:57,120 Speaker 1: is to put him in such a case with such 135 00:07:57,120 --> 00:08:00,240 Speaker 1: a high spotlight. Is that fair to say? It's fair 136 00:08:00,280 --> 00:08:02,360 Speaker 1: to say it. And you know, across the American South, 137 00:08:02,480 --> 00:08:04,800 Speaker 1: I mean particularly, you know, we think about race relations 138 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:06,200 Speaker 1: in the American South and we see it as a 139 00:08:06,280 --> 00:08:09,800 Speaker 1: sordid relationship between blacks and whites. But people are complicated, 140 00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:12,000 Speaker 1: and one on one they do different things, and maybe 141 00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:15,320 Speaker 1: you know safe to say that Hudson and Herbert Jenkins 142 00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 1: really did just have a bond and there was a trust. 143 00:08:17,920 --> 00:08:20,160 Speaker 1: And also, you know, think of it this way. What 144 00:08:20,360 --> 00:08:23,920 Speaker 1: really maybe happening here is that J. D. Hudson as 145 00:08:23,920 --> 00:08:27,120 Speaker 1: a police officer who had to arrest the young people 146 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:30,320 Speaker 1: of the Atlanta student movement, you know, at LEPs Diner, 147 00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:32,480 Speaker 1: but he had to do so with dignity and pride. 148 00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:37,480 Speaker 1: And it may be that Chief Jenkins understood that j 149 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 1: D was the kind of person that could keep the 150 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:44,920 Speaker 1: black community office back, and see there may have been 151 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:47,360 Speaker 1: appreciation for that. It was one of those things to 152 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:51,480 Speaker 1: where because j. D. Hudson had an organic relationship with 153 00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:54,720 Speaker 1: all of the black communities in Atlanta, and Herbert Jenkins 154 00:08:54,840 --> 00:08:59,320 Speaker 1: understood that the black community respected j. D. Hudson. That's 155 00:08:59,440 --> 00:09:02,920 Speaker 1: probably why j D was able to you know, become 156 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:05,840 Speaker 1: Ali's bodyguard and to be with him seven you know, 157 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:07,720 Speaker 1: during the time when Ali is here before his fight. 158 00:09:20,480 --> 00:09:22,640 Speaker 1: You know, I've had some reservations about some of the 159 00:09:22,760 --> 00:09:25,840 Speaker 1: phrases and topics that we're discussing, So let's take one 160 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:28,560 Speaker 1: of those so we can expand on it a little bit, 161 00:09:28,840 --> 00:09:32,280 Speaker 1: which is black on black crime. Just talk a little 162 00:09:32,280 --> 00:09:35,600 Speaker 1: bit about the history of that phrase. Black on black 163 00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:41,160 Speaker 1: crime is a pathologizing kind of term. Oftentimes that came 164 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:46,559 Speaker 1: into the American English lexicon with other words such as 165 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:50,600 Speaker 1: inner city which means black, well, welfare queen. They're the 166 00:09:50,760 --> 00:09:53,719 Speaker 1: scripted narratives. And the thing about it is, I want 167 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:56,640 Speaker 1: you to think about this, only of the United States 168 00:09:56,720 --> 00:10:00,920 Speaker 1: is identifies as of African descent, and the fact that 169 00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:04,760 Speaker 1: someone would throw out black on black crime, it negates 170 00:10:04,840 --> 00:10:07,720 Speaker 1: all of the horror and terror in the violence that 171 00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:11,080 Speaker 1: America has put on all of its citizens, but black, brown, 172 00:10:11,679 --> 00:10:16,280 Speaker 1: Native women, poor people. So to throw that out there, 173 00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:19,520 Speaker 1: it really shifts to blame from what the real culprit is. 174 00:10:19,760 --> 00:10:22,240 Speaker 1: And so when we talked about black on black and 175 00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:25,840 Speaker 1: what that means, oftentimes, you know, black on black is 176 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:30,360 Speaker 1: presented to kind of take the focus off of what 177 00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:33,840 Speaker 1: America has done in terms of violence towards other communities, 178 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:37,480 Speaker 1: and it just focuses on a particular group to show 179 00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:40,400 Speaker 1: that black people are their own worst enemies. And it 180 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:43,000 Speaker 1: doesn't take into account American greed, it doesn't take into 181 00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:46,480 Speaker 1: account segregation, it doesn't take into account sexual assault, and 182 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:49,160 Speaker 1: trafficking and all of those different things. It doesn't really 183 00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:52,840 Speaker 1: take it to account American history exactly. All right, Let's 184 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:56,880 Speaker 1: seg to Mohammad Ali. Mom was telling me that Muhammad 185 00:10:56,960 --> 00:11:00,160 Speaker 1: Ali had a real love affair with Atlanta of the 186 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:03,960 Speaker 1: years well as a result of Ali being able to 187 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:07,240 Speaker 1: fight here, he endears that relationship with Atlanta. And there 188 00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:10,200 Speaker 1: are at least four things that Ali does with Atlanta 189 00:11:10,280 --> 00:11:14,040 Speaker 1: over his career because they become partners. So Muhammad Ali 190 00:11:14,160 --> 00:11:16,840 Speaker 1: and Atlanta, Georgia create this love affair and what I 191 00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:18,880 Speaker 1: call it is a love story in the Key of 192 00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:21,920 Speaker 1: the Black New South. The Black New South deals with 193 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:24,160 Speaker 1: the Civil Rights Act of nineteen sixty four and the 194 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:27,160 Speaker 1: Voting Rights Act of ninety five, which politically changed the 195 00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:29,840 Speaker 1: American South where black people are able to really assert 196 00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:33,720 Speaker 1: themselves politically. And so what all he does is in 197 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:36,920 Speaker 1: the late nineteen seventies, he comes back to Atlanta to 198 00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:39,839 Speaker 1: help raise money for the Dr Martin Luther King Center. 199 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:43,920 Speaker 1: He comes back to Atlanta, King's hometown and celebrates Dr 200 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:45,959 Speaker 1: King in his non volunt direct action by helping to 201 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:48,720 Speaker 1: raise money. He has a fight in effigy with Maynard 202 00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:52,160 Speaker 1: Jackson to help raise money for this cause. Also, during 203 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:56,560 Speaker 1: the notorious episodes known as the Atlanta Child Murders, it 204 00:11:56,679 --> 00:11:59,640 Speaker 1: is Ali who gives his money from his own winnings 205 00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:01,880 Speaker 1: to the City of Atlanta. He gives four hundred thousand 206 00:12:01,880 --> 00:12:04,679 Speaker 1: dollars in cash because the City of Atlanta could only 207 00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:08,280 Speaker 1: muster one thousand dollars for an award, so he gives 208 00:12:08,280 --> 00:12:10,560 Speaker 1: that to the City of Atlanta because he says, it's 209 00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:13,640 Speaker 1: shameful what's happening to those children. And then, of course 210 00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:16,000 Speaker 1: in the nineteen eighties, he does come back to Atlanta 211 00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:18,640 Speaker 1: to again help raise more money for the King Center. 212 00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:23,480 Speaker 1: But it's in when he likes to torch for the 213 00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:28,439 Speaker 1: Centennial Olympia that we really see that deal sealed in 214 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:32,160 Speaker 1: in their relationship. The relationship between Muhammad Ali and Atlanta, 215 00:12:32,200 --> 00:12:36,400 Speaker 1: Georgia is one that deserves considerable research and attention. Ali 216 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:39,080 Speaker 1: understood that Atlanta given him the opportunity to come back 217 00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:42,880 Speaker 1: and fight, set a stage for him to do what 218 00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:45,480 Speaker 1: he loved to do most and that was, you know, 219 00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:51,880 Speaker 1: be a champion of humanity. Atlanta understanding the bron the brain, 220 00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:55,640 Speaker 1: the brilliance of Ali as not only a heavyweight fighter, 221 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:59,920 Speaker 1: but as a champion for civil and human rights attached 222 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:03,000 Speaker 1: to itself and the both the city and Ali merge 223 00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:08,720 Speaker 1: themselves and present it the kind of image of what 224 00:13:08,840 --> 00:13:11,880 Speaker 1: it meant to be rising in the black New South. 225 00:13:12,559 --> 00:13:17,600 Speaker 1: What are some similarities and some tie ins about this story, 226 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:22,080 Speaker 1: that event you just discussed, that heist from nineteen seventy 227 00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:27,199 Speaker 1: and what we're dealing with now in two thousand and twenty. 228 00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:32,640 Speaker 1: Some of the similarities between the Ali fight nineteen seventy, 229 00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:36,920 Speaker 1: the all black everything heist that takes place after the fight, 230 00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:41,080 Speaker 1: and what we have going now is also a conversation 231 00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:43,920 Speaker 1: around equal protection and due process under the law. Let 232 00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:45,960 Speaker 1: me connect this in a particular kind of way. You know, 233 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:49,640 Speaker 1: Mohammad Ali was buked in scoring because he was deemed 234 00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:53,920 Speaker 1: as on patriotic because he did not want to adhere 235 00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:56,360 Speaker 1: to policies that would have sent him to the front 236 00:13:56,400 --> 00:13:58,360 Speaker 1: lines to be murdered on behalf of the country that 237 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:00,800 Speaker 1: didn't love him. And it goes back to the conversation 238 00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:03,079 Speaker 1: I mean with with Ali being a prize fighter, I'm 239 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:04,840 Speaker 1: pretty sure that white America would have loved to have 240 00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:07,800 Speaker 1: seen him just shut up in box. And you know, 241 00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:10,160 Speaker 1: right now we are in the midst of a pandemic 242 00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:13,040 Speaker 1: where the American President and even the governor in the 243 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:16,960 Speaker 1: state of Georgia has failed to try to protect people 244 00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:21,320 Speaker 1: from this pandemic. Things such as personal protective equipment ppees 245 00:14:21,560 --> 00:14:25,640 Speaker 1: that is seriously impacted folks with pre existing conditions, who 246 00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:28,240 Speaker 1: are overwhelmingly black and brown, who who don't have access 247 00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:31,160 Speaker 1: to adequate healthcare, they live in food deserts. We see 248 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:34,320 Speaker 1: the rise of the prison industrial complex and and how 249 00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:37,280 Speaker 1: that works. But what we also began to see here 250 00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:40,560 Speaker 1: is right now with professional sports, you see athletes that 251 00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:43,640 Speaker 1: are taking a page out of Muhammad Ali's book and 252 00:14:43,680 --> 00:14:46,480 Speaker 1: they're standing up. Of course, Colin Kaepernick is going to 253 00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:49,240 Speaker 1: get his due for taking a knee in regards to 254 00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:51,480 Speaker 1: the playing of the national anthem to bring, you know, 255 00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:55,360 Speaker 1: attention to police brutality. You got the NBA players who 256 00:14:55,520 --> 00:14:59,320 Speaker 1: with the Kenosha, Wisconsin police shooting Jacob Blake in the 257 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:02,280 Speaker 1: back seven time times, who basically say, you know what, 258 00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:05,520 Speaker 1: this is an injustice and they said we're not going 259 00:15:05,560 --> 00:15:08,280 Speaker 1: to play tonight. You have Lebron James and the rest 260 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:12,120 Speaker 1: of the NBA players who meet with President Barack Obama 261 00:15:12,160 --> 00:15:16,720 Speaker 1: who's able to really fully discuss how they can will 262 00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:20,080 Speaker 1: their power as athletes to be able to make this 263 00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:23,280 Speaker 1: world more democratic. So I mean, we see how Atlanta, 264 00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:26,200 Speaker 1: Georgia is going to make state from arena become a 265 00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:29,120 Speaker 1: place for voting. What we're seeing here is that Ali 266 00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:33,160 Speaker 1: was the kind of world persona. He showed us how 267 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:35,040 Speaker 1: it should be done. But then on the flip side 268 00:15:35,040 --> 00:15:38,520 Speaker 1: of it is in each in every world and each 269 00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:42,360 Speaker 1: and every time, there's always an informal economy. And there 270 00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:47,000 Speaker 1: are those within all communities, but the Black community in 271 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:50,120 Speaker 1: particular that feel as if America has never done right 272 00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:54,520 Speaker 1: by black populations, and thus they operate on their own terms. 273 00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:57,240 Speaker 1: And in operating on their own terms, that's why you 274 00:15:57,240 --> 00:15:59,240 Speaker 1: would have a fireball, or why you would have a 275 00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:02,840 Speaker 1: you know, Richard Wheeler, Yeah, short, Papa. I love the 276 00:16:02,840 --> 00:16:06,000 Speaker 1: story of Ola May and her daughters tressing up, going 277 00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:09,320 Speaker 1: to the malls and stealing everything and then obviously using 278 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:14,240 Speaker 1: it to it. But there are white politicians and white 279 00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:18,000 Speaker 1: people in corporate worlds that are stealing money and breaking 280 00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:20,680 Speaker 1: the law all over the place, and of course they 281 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:23,520 Speaker 1: it's not looked at in the same regard, or they 282 00:16:23,560 --> 00:16:27,720 Speaker 1: have the finances to hire people to protect them legally, 283 00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:31,240 Speaker 1: or they have the connections politically to protect them from 284 00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:34,920 Speaker 1: certain things. But it's all criminals. Discussed that a little 285 00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:38,000 Speaker 1: bit in nineteen seventy and that hypocrisy in some ways, 286 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:41,000 Speaker 1: well sure, I mean the founding of this country is 287 00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:42,920 Speaker 1: based on that same kind degree. I mean, you know, 288 00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:45,800 Speaker 1: there were people Native Americans that were that have been 289 00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:50,120 Speaker 1: on this land for thousands of years. And when Europeans come, 290 00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:52,680 Speaker 1: they decide that, you know, they are guys, chosen people, 291 00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:56,000 Speaker 1: and they are going to go from sea to shining sea. 292 00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:58,800 Speaker 1: It's called manifest destiny. And so when this new nation 293 00:16:58,880 --> 00:17:01,320 Speaker 1: was created, the laws were created to keep a particular 294 00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:03,840 Speaker 1: group of people in power, uh, the top five percent 295 00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:06,280 Speaker 1: in power. And as a result of that, when you 296 00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:09,399 Speaker 1: create the laws, you also create the loopholes. When we 297 00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:12,199 Speaker 1: talk about this gangster all of this gangster stuff, what 298 00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:14,720 Speaker 1: we're really talking about as capitalism and greed. I mean, 299 00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:16,840 Speaker 1: that's what America was based on. We're talking about a 300 00:17:16,840 --> 00:17:20,040 Speaker 1: group of hustlers who have figured out how to manipulate 301 00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:25,720 Speaker 1: the system based on how they can, versus bankers and 302 00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:28,600 Speaker 1: Wall Street who is able to manipulate the system of 303 00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:31,159 Speaker 1: money how they can, and then they can get just 304 00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:33,480 Speaker 1: slapped on the wrist. Oh, I didn't know that that happened. 305 00:17:33,520 --> 00:17:36,399 Speaker 1: You're talking about the haves and have knots historically and 306 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:38,200 Speaker 1: how they have knots have always had to be much 307 00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:42,639 Speaker 1: more creative whereas to have they function in terms of money. 308 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:44,800 Speaker 1: One of the things that I argue and how I 309 00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:51,080 Speaker 1: teach history is that racism, sexism, classism equals prejudice plus 310 00:17:51,119 --> 00:17:54,040 Speaker 1: the use in the abuse of power. Everyone has prejudice. 311 00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:55,760 Speaker 1: And when I say prejudice, I mean you may not 312 00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:58,720 Speaker 1: like red meat. That's that's your own prejudice. I mean, 313 00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:00,480 Speaker 1: for whatever reason, you may at late meat, or you 314 00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:02,600 Speaker 1: may not like the New Orleans Saints because you just 315 00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:04,840 Speaker 1: don't like them. But the real issue is the use 316 00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:07,280 Speaker 1: of the abuse of power. And what that means is 317 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:10,000 Speaker 1: if I am a New Orleans Saints fan and you 318 00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:12,480 Speaker 1: are one of my students, Jeff, and I give you 319 00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:15,440 Speaker 1: an F in my class because I have the power 320 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:17,800 Speaker 1: to use it and abuse it to give you an 321 00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:21,000 Speaker 1: F because I'm holding my prejudice against you. Then that 322 00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:22,840 Speaker 1: creates a problem. And when we talk about the us 323 00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:25,000 Speaker 1: and abusive power of what we're saying is we're talking 324 00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:28,679 Speaker 1: about the creation of policies and policies dictate laws, and 325 00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:32,480 Speaker 1: so the laws of this nation have failed to protect 326 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:35,879 Speaker 1: the least amongst us, the Black America, Brown America women, 327 00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:39,439 Speaker 1: pool whites, the First Nations, and Native groups l g B, 328 00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:42,320 Speaker 1: t q I. The laws have failed to protect them 329 00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:44,800 Speaker 1: because at the end of the day, this nation was 330 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:59,800 Speaker 1: based on white Anglo Saxon Protestant male ideas. I was 331 00:18:59,840 --> 00:19:03,919 Speaker 1: just raised with an interest in other cultures, whatever it 332 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:06,240 Speaker 1: may be. I mean, I'm talking. I mean, you could 333 00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:09,600 Speaker 1: be going from Russia to Asia, Africa, whatever, and so 334 00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:13,520 Speaker 1: I find it interesting that there's a lot of people 335 00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:15,919 Speaker 1: that just aren't interested in other cultures. There's so you 336 00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:18,359 Speaker 1: know what I mean, they're so locked into their own. 337 00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:21,439 Speaker 1: That's what fascinated me with this world. I was like, 338 00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:24,159 Speaker 1: oh my goodness, this is incredible. And the fact that 339 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:26,960 Speaker 1: it was in Atlanta, Maurice under my nose, in a 340 00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:29,199 Speaker 1: city that I grew up in all these years, and 341 00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:32,639 Speaker 1: a true crime and and literally miles away an you know, 342 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:34,959 Speaker 1: I'm in Decatur, Georgia. You know a lot of this 343 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:37,280 Speaker 1: is happening on the west side or the southwest side. 344 00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:41,959 Speaker 1: So anyway, I just I'm constantly reflecting on that, and 345 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:44,800 Speaker 1: it's just I'm just like And it was different to 346 00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:47,640 Speaker 1: Maurice because a lot of people get obsessed with stories. 347 00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:50,879 Speaker 1: I wasn't obsessed with this. I would move on and 348 00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:53,240 Speaker 1: move away, but this story always seemed to come back 349 00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:56,120 Speaker 1: and grab me and find me and say no, you 350 00:19:56,160 --> 00:19:59,160 Speaker 1: need to tell me. So I'm a static we get 351 00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:01,520 Speaker 1: a chance to tell this story. We don't know how 352 00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:03,959 Speaker 1: time works, we don't know how it will move forward. 353 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:07,439 Speaker 1: And right now, right here, you're doing this work and 354 00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:09,520 Speaker 1: it is going to be recorded and it is going 355 00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:11,600 Speaker 1: to be released. And the cool thing about it is 356 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:16,399 Speaker 1: you have a different network that because it's you. Because 357 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:19,360 Speaker 1: black folks are interested in black history in Atlanta, it's 358 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:21,960 Speaker 1: also going to teach some something. So you know, when 359 00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:24,000 Speaker 1: someone googles my name, what they know is they know 360 00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:26,280 Speaker 1: I do African American history. They know I do political 361 00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:28,480 Speaker 1: history of American South, they know I do Atlanta. They 362 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:31,320 Speaker 1: know it's black. They know that about me. So for 363 00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:35,320 Speaker 1: certain demographics, no matter what I do, they're like, I 364 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:37,000 Speaker 1: don't want to hear what he has to say because 365 00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:40,200 Speaker 1: he's gonna come with that leftist, extremist kind of stuff. Whatever, 366 00:20:40,359 --> 00:20:42,320 Speaker 1: whether it is that or not doesn't really matter. But 367 00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:46,160 Speaker 1: with you. Your own communities are going to support you, 368 00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:49,680 Speaker 1: and that that's a vast community right there. So sometimes 369 00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:53,640 Speaker 1: it takes a Jewish kid from Decayta, Georgia whose mother 370 00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:56,800 Speaker 1: and father met at the high est and whose dad 371 00:20:57,080 --> 00:21:00,880 Speaker 1: is picking up his sister and nieces. Woman. I mean, hey, 372 00:21:01,119 --> 00:21:04,399 Speaker 1: you were born for this, I mean the meeting of 373 00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:06,639 Speaker 1: your parents and what all this stuff does, and it 374 00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:09,399 Speaker 1: comes back to you. You've chosen for this and I 375 00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:12,960 Speaker 1: look forward to, you know, helping you promote this kind 376 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:16,399 Speaker 1: of story. But you're the right clearly, you're the right 377 00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:18,520 Speaker 1: person for the job, because we were out here talking 378 00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:20,480 Speaker 1: about it. I'm saying that to say that I'm not 379 00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:23,440 Speaker 1: promoting time or chance, but I do believe that there's 380 00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:26,040 Speaker 1: something bigger working. You know, when you do these types 381 00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:30,200 Speaker 1: of pieces, documentaries, these limited podcasts, you have this material. 382 00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:32,679 Speaker 1: You're trying to find this story and what we realized 383 00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:37,360 Speaker 1: is it really is about this friendship that developed between 384 00:21:37,359 --> 00:21:42,040 Speaker 1: this white Jewish Southern kid from Decatur and this black 385 00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:47,320 Speaker 1: hustler turn preacher from Atlanta. And just over time, I 386 00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:49,800 Speaker 1: mean I go in, you know, to track down this story, 387 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:52,600 Speaker 1: Maurice and to tell it because I'm so excited because 388 00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:56,480 Speaker 1: i love true crime so much. But ultimately, I'm having 389 00:21:56,800 --> 00:22:00,560 Speaker 1: dinner with Gordon Williams and his family. I'm meeting his children, 390 00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:04,920 Speaker 1: We're going to film premiers together. He's meeting my family, 391 00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:07,879 Speaker 1: He's meeting my wife and kids. So I mean, it 392 00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:11,919 Speaker 1: really develops into this friendship. What starts as research and 393 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:16,040 Speaker 1: an education just turns into something so much more. Listen, man, 394 00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:18,360 Speaker 1: it is always a beautiful thing. You know the old 395 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:21,240 Speaker 1: A Team show Hannibal used to say, I just love 396 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:24,200 Speaker 1: when a plan comes together. But what you are exemplifying 397 00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:26,800 Speaker 1: and what you embody is what we call research to practice. 398 00:22:27,359 --> 00:22:31,120 Speaker 1: It's not just about the story. You have thoroughly immersed 399 00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:35,280 Speaker 1: yourself so truly understand this. And basically you have this 400 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:38,320 Speaker 1: story in your mind. You're connecting with all of those 401 00:22:38,359 --> 00:22:40,520 Speaker 1: to make sure that the story is told correctly. And 402 00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:43,000 Speaker 1: now you're able to take what's in your mind and 403 00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:44,520 Speaker 1: present it to the rest of the world so they 404 00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:46,720 Speaker 1: can see the story there. And also it's it's the 405 00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:49,160 Speaker 1: background in history and the situation they're in. I mean, 406 00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:51,400 Speaker 1: you say, oh, these people are criminal, but you've got 407 00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:54,080 Speaker 1: to look at the four hundred years that fall behind him, 408 00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:56,200 Speaker 1: and you've got to look at the education that's afford 409 00:22:56,240 --> 00:22:59,280 Speaker 1: them and key ingredient in all humanity, which is survival. 410 00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:01,640 Speaker 1: Some people are just trying to survive for their families. 411 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:04,560 Speaker 1: And and so he really got and then what we 412 00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:08,720 Speaker 1: ultimately must do is we have to look at each person, 413 00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:10,800 Speaker 1: not by the face and not that a skinned but 414 00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:13,119 Speaker 1: there's a name, and there's a storage everyway. This is 415 00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:17,560 Speaker 1: Gordon Williams Senior. This is his story, and there this 416 00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:20,720 Speaker 1: is J. D. Hudson. And so not every cop is 417 00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:22,600 Speaker 1: going to be the same. Every hustler is going to 418 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:25,800 Speaker 1: be the same. And you know, wherever we go anywhere, 419 00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:28,480 Speaker 1: there's going to be a name to the face of 420 00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:31,879 Speaker 1: the story that we're telling. And that's vital. There's a 421 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:33,800 Speaker 1: really good book called The Warmth of other Sons by 422 00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:37,040 Speaker 1: Isabella Wilkerson, and one of the stories he tells is 423 00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:40,879 Speaker 1: about this black family in Limestone, Alabama, which is North Alabama, 424 00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:45,680 Speaker 1: and how the youngest child was a feeble child and 425 00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:48,440 Speaker 1: he would never be suited to do farm work because 426 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:50,800 Speaker 1: he was just a small framed feeble child. And so 427 00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:53,400 Speaker 1: they tell the story on how this family moves north. 428 00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:56,080 Speaker 1: I think they moved to Ohio because there was southern 429 00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:58,000 Speaker 1: and there was not a lot of education. When the 430 00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:02,240 Speaker 1: youngest child went to school, his name him was James Owens, 431 00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:05,919 Speaker 1: but the teachers named him Jesse because they called him 432 00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:09,159 Speaker 1: j C. They named him Jesse. And so this becomes 433 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:13,480 Speaker 1: the same Jesse Owens who his feeble body and rule 434 00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:15,800 Speaker 1: Alabama sharecrop and may have not have meant anything, but 435 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:19,080 Speaker 1: in another environment he becomes the fastest man in the 436 00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:22,080 Speaker 1: world as debunks the idea of white supremacy by beating 437 00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:25,200 Speaker 1: the Nazis. So what I'm saying is that given different 438 00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:29,919 Speaker 1: situations and opportunities, Chicken Man could have been mayor of Columbus, Ohio, 439 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:33,520 Speaker 1: or the head of a multimillion dollar corporation exactly, or 440 00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:37,440 Speaker 1: vice versa. The heads of these corporations could ended up impoverished, 441 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:39,600 Speaker 1: in prison or whatever it is. So you use the word, well, 442 00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:42,000 Speaker 1: there's a lot of complexity to all of these stories, 443 00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:45,040 Speaker 1: but ultimately this is just a great heist. It's a 444 00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:51,520 Speaker 1: great high it's a great story to tell. Thank you 445 00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:56,199 Speaker 1: for listening to Fight Night. We hope you joined us 446 00:24:56,200 --> 00:25:00,280 Speaker 1: for our next podcast about a professor who conducted over 447 00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:04,840 Speaker 1: fifty interviews with the most infamous mass murderer in South 448 00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:10,679 Speaker 1: Carolina history. It's called pee Wee. Gaskins was not My friend. 449 00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:19,920 Speaker 1: Fight Night is a joint production from My Heart Radio, 450 00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:24,440 Speaker 1: Will Packer Media and Doghouse Pictures in association with Psychopia Pictures. 451 00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:28,600 Speaker 1: Produced and hosted by Jeff Keating. Executive producers are Will Packer, 452 00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:33,680 Speaker 1: James Lopez, Kenny Burns, Dan Bush, Lars Jacobson, and Noel Brown. 453 00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:38,480 Speaker 1: Supervising producer is Taylor Shoyne. Story editors are Noel Brown 454 00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:41,880 Speaker 1: and Dan Bush. Written by Jeff Keeting and Jim Roberts. 455 00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:45,919 Speaker 1: Edited by Matt Owen. Mixing and sound designed by Jeremiah 456 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:50,080 Speaker 1: Kolanni Prescott. Music written and performed by The Diamond Street Players. 457 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:55,000 Speaker 1: Additional music by Ben Lovett. Audio archives courtesy of WSB 458 00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:58,920 Speaker 1: News Film and Video Tape Collection, Brown Media Archives, University 459 00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:02,679 Speaker 1: of Georgia Libraries. Special thanks to Dr Maurice Hobson and 460 00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:06,920 Speaker 1: David Davis. Fight Night is a production of I Heart Radio. 461 00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:10,080 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from my heart Radio, check out the 462 00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:14,280 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get 463 00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:15,200 Speaker 1: your podcasts.