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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 2: This is a story about a mother's deep love for

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Speaker 2: her son, her heartbreak when he's brutally killed, and her

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Speaker 2: transformation from a quiet mother who just wanted grandkids and

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Speaker 2: was looking forward to her only son's wedding and becoming

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Speaker 2: overnight an activist.

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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor

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Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the host of the historical

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Speaker 1: true crime podcast tenfold war Wicked on Exactly Right. I've

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Speaker 1: traveled around the world interviewing people for the show. I've

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Speaker 1: interviewed some people in person and some from my home

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Speaker 1: studio over zoom, and they are all excellent writers. They've

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Speaker 1: had so many great true crime stories, and now we

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Speaker 1: want to tell you the stories with details that have

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Speaker 1: never been published. Tenfold More Wicked presents Wicked Words is

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Speaker 1: about the choices that writers make, good and bad. It's

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Speaker 1: a deep dive into the stories behind the stories. Author

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Speaker 1: Paula Hugh's book From a Whisper To a Rallying Cry

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Speaker 1: has a huge list of awards, including being longlisted for

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Speaker 1: a twenty twenty one National Book Award. It's about the

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Speaker 1: nineteen eighty two murder of Asian American Vincent Chin in Detroit.

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Speaker 1: But it's really about the civil rights movement started by

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Speaker 1: his death and how it galvanized so many people. Let's

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Speaker 1: start with where we are in time and where we

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Speaker 1: are in the country, and then we'll talk about Vincent.

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Speaker 1: So this is nineteen eighty two Detroit.

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Speaker 2: Yes, this is nineteen eighty two Detroit, and it's happening

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Speaker 2: in the middle of a recession. We're in our second

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Speaker 2: oil crisis. Gas prices are skyrocketing, and Michigan is home

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Speaker 2: to the big three at the time, GM, Ford, and Chrysler.

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Speaker 2: There's the reason why we call Detroit motor city. It's

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Speaker 2: the birthplace of Henry Ford. It's one of the cradles

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Speaker 2: of industry in America. And in nineteen eighty two, because

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Speaker 2: of gas prices, oil crisis, in the recession, American car

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Speaker 2: companies are still making what we call gas guzzlers. You know,

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Speaker 2: your grandpa is huge station wagon. It takes a lot

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Speaker 2: of gas to fill up that tank. And at the time,

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Speaker 2: there were these newer Japanese import car companies called oh

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Speaker 2: something called Toyota, Honda, Dotson. I think they have a

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Speaker 2: good future in front of them. They're making smaller, more

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Speaker 2: fuel efficient cars. So because of that, Americans are buying

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Speaker 2: more and more Japanese import cars and basically just any

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Speaker 2: import car from any country that is more fuel efficient.

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Speaker 2: So as a result, there were hundreds of thousands of

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Speaker 2: layoffs happening across Michigan and across the country in the

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Speaker 2: American auto industry because we still making the same car

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Speaker 2: and we couldn't compete. So there was a lot of unemployment,

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Speaker 2: a lot of anger. And what happened with that was

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Speaker 2: politicians and the auto industry started pointing fingers. They needed

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Speaker 2: scapegoat someone. So there was a noticeable increase in anti

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Speaker 2: Japanese and ultimately anti Asian sentiment because of this. And

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Speaker 2: I know what I'm saying happened in nineteen eighty two.

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Speaker 2: That was forty years ago. But when you think about it,

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Speaker 2: doesn't this ring a bell. Let's talk about China virus

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Speaker 2: coulon flu. What's happening today with the pandemic with the

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Speaker 2: COVID nineteen coronavirus pandemic. The similarities between the spike and

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Speaker 2: anti Asian racism and hate crimes set against the backdrop

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Speaker 2: of a recession, a spike in gas prices, and people

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Speaker 2: looking to point the finger in unfairly scapegoat another country

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Speaker 2: that happens to be Asian, which then spills into eight

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Speaker 2: crimes against Americans of Asian descent. It's hauntingly disturbing and

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Speaker 2: very similar the parallels. It's almost like history is, as

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Speaker 2: they say, repeating.

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Speaker 1: Itself, this is Reagan in the White House. Yes, okay.

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Speaker 1: Did Asian Americans have any kind of political power at

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Speaker 1: all in nineteen eighty two?

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Speaker 2: Not really, I think. Also one of the problems in

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Speaker 2: the nineteen eighties was that the ACLU actually said that

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Speaker 2: the civil rights at that time did not apply to

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Speaker 2: Asian Americans. We were considered not protected by it because

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Speaker 2: when you talk about race, especially in the early nineteen eighties,

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Speaker 2: the dialogue was only for white and black. Asian Americans

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Speaker 2: were not given a seat at the table to talk

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Speaker 2: about racism. It did not allegedly exist for us, even

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Speaker 2: though we had the Chinatown Massacre, we had the illegal

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Speaker 2: incarceration of Japanese Americans during World War Two, many many

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Speaker 2: examples of anti Asian hate. We have also lost the

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Speaker 2: Chinese Exclusion Act. How the Chinese laborers were mistreated in

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Speaker 2: the building of the railroad. But yet, despite all that evidence,

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Speaker 2: in nineteen eighty two, we didn't have much political power.

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Speaker 2: We were kind of invisible, and we didn't really exist

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Speaker 2: in the political and racial landscape of the time. And

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Speaker 2: that's something that we're still struggling with today and we're

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Speaker 2: still fighting against. Have things improved a little bit, but

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Speaker 2: we've got a long way to go.

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Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about Vincent Chin for a little bit.

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Speaker 1: Tell me about him.

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Speaker 2: Vincent Chen was born in nineteen fifty five in China,

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Speaker 2: and he's actually one thing that people don't know about

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Speaker 2: him is that he was adopted. His parents could not

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Speaker 2: have a baby, so they looked to adopt internationally. And

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Speaker 2: I remember I read an interview where Lily Chin said,

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Speaker 2: the minute she saw Vincent's photo as a child, his smile,

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Speaker 2: his eyes fo it was as if he was looking

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Speaker 2: directly at her soul. And so she said, we're adopting him.

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Speaker 2: And he came to America when he was six years old,

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Speaker 2: and he grew up in Michigan, just outside of Detroit

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Speaker 2: with his family. His parents worked various hard labor jobs.

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Speaker 2: They worked in a laundry they washed dishes. They worked

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Speaker 2: very blue collar jobs. And he was an all American boy,

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Speaker 2: just an all American kid. He played football, he played tag,

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Speaker 2: He even learned the violin in the school orchestra. And

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Speaker 2: his favorite thing to do was to read. When he

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Speaker 2: was a little kid and even when he was a

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Speaker 2: young adult, his lifelong book warm. He was also not

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Speaker 2: a shy book warm, very popular, his friends told me,

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Speaker 2: and in interviews and in my research, he was the

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Speaker 2: kind of person that the minute he met you you

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Speaker 2: were his best friend, he would engage you with open arms.

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Speaker 2: Very gregarious, very talkative, had a great sense of humor,

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Speaker 2: and he worked hard, but he partied hard, and so

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Speaker 2: that kind of was his personality in a nutshell.

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Speaker 1: So Vincent and his family are from China, even though

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Speaker 1: he's all American. His mother, Lily isn't.

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Speaker 2: She came out here as a young bride in nineteen

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Speaker 2: forty eight and her father actually said, your great grandfather

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Speaker 2: had a terrible time building the railroads. You should not

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Speaker 2: go to America. But she said it was different back then,

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Speaker 2: things are different now. And she had such a hope

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Speaker 2: and love for America when she came here, and her

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Speaker 2: heart was broken when the white children in her neighborhood.

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Speaker 2: And she loved children. Remember she was trying to have

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Speaker 2: a baby. She loved children. She would smile and wave

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Speaker 2: at the children riding their bikes past her house, and

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Speaker 2: in return, they would make fun of her. They would

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Speaker 2: pull their eyes back in an exaggerated slanted motion and

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Speaker 2: make faces at her. And she realized the children and

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Speaker 2: the families on her street did not think she was equal.

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Speaker 2: And then there was a moment where her husband took

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Speaker 2: her to a Detroit Tiger's game. You can't get any

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Speaker 2: more American than that. They went to Tiger Stadium and

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Speaker 2: the people around them, all the white people, were very

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Speaker 2: upset that they were sitting there, and they started saying

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Speaker 2: terrible things and making them uncomfortable and feeling unsafe. It

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Speaker 2: was the only baseball game they went to, and they

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Speaker 2: had to leave because they felt threatened. So Vincent's growing

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Speaker 2: up with his mother's terrible experiences. But for Vincent, because

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Speaker 2: he's a younger generation and he had diverse friends, not

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Speaker 2: just Chinese American friends, but friends of different races, he

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Speaker 2: got along with everybody. He actually was the hope of

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Speaker 2: future Asian American youth generation that were not going to

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Speaker 2: have the same difficulty as their parents did, as their

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Speaker 2: grandparents did, because they were assimilating more in America. They

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Speaker 2: spoke fluent English, they played football, they were all American kids.

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Speaker 2: So there was a hope for his generation because Lily

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Speaker 2: and Vincent Chimp's father, they worked hard and sacrificed and

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Speaker 2: suffered so their kids could have a better life, and

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Speaker 2: we're starting to see that with Vincent right before his

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Speaker 2: life is tragically cut short.

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Speaker 1: I'm assuming though, that Lily is always worried about Vincent.

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Speaker 1: In Detroit, especially.

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Speaker 2: Lily was very worried for her son's safety all the time.

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Speaker 2: By the early nineteen eighties, Detroit had a horrible nickname.

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Speaker 2: It went from motor city to murder City. It was

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Speaker 2: known as the murder capital of America because at that time,

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Speaker 2: in the early nineteen eighties, Detroit had one of the

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Speaker 2: highest homicide rates in the country. So of course it

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Speaker 2: wasn't the safest place to be. And on the night

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Speaker 2: Vincent was killed, he was at home. His mom was

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Speaker 2: feeding him some food, and he got out and worked early.

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Speaker 2: He was waiting tables part time on the weekends while

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Speaker 2: also juggling his first new job as a draftsman at

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Speaker 2: an engineering firm, and he's working two jobs because he's

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Speaker 2: trying to save as much money because he wants to

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Speaker 2: buy a house so his fiancee, Vicky Wong, and his

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Speaker 2: mom can move in. And on June nineteenth, nineteen two,

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Speaker 2: the car pumps outside and it's his three best friends, Gary,

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Speaker 2: Bob and Jimmy, and they decided at the last minute,

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Speaker 2: because Vincent got off his Saturday night shift at the

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Speaker 2: Golden Star Chinese restaurant, he impulsively decided, Hey, I'm getting

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Speaker 2: married in ten days. I completely forgot to organize a

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Speaker 2: bachelor party. This is the last Saturday night that I

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Speaker 2: can have a night out with the guys. So he

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Speaker 2: impulsively said, I'm going to go home. See my mom,

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Speaker 2: come on over, pick me up, and we'll go bar hopping.

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Speaker 2: We're going to have a night out on the town.

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Speaker 2: And his mother said, what are you doing. You're getting

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Speaker 2: married in ten days. You can't be going out like this,

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Speaker 2: And Vincent laughed and told his mom he said, Mom,

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Speaker 2: don't worry, it's just a night out with the guys.

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Speaker 2: I promise I won't be home early. It's a last

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Speaker 2: night out with the guys. Before I get married. And

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Speaker 2: right then and there, Lily got upset and she said,

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Speaker 2: don't say last time, that's bad luck. She had a

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Speaker 2: jade necklace. In Chinese culture, jade is considered a blow

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Speaker 2: of protection, and she took off her necklace and put

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Speaker 2: it around her son's neck and she said, this is

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Speaker 2: for your protection. And I think one of the last

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Speaker 2: words he said to her was, don't worry, mom, I'll

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Speaker 2: be home early.

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Speaker 1: And he left. Where do he and Gary and Bob

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Speaker 1: and Jimmy go go.

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Speaker 2: To a lot of what we call today adult entertainment nightclubs?

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Speaker 2: Back in the eighties, you know, strip clubs. So they're

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Speaker 2: going to bars, and they end up at the Fancy

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Speaker 2: Pants Club and it had a catwalk and there were dancers,

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Speaker 2: and that's where they ended up. That was the last

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Speaker 2: club on their long night of having fun. That was

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Speaker 2: the last place that they ended up that night.

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Speaker 1: Would the Fancy Pants Club traditionally be a safe place

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Speaker 1: for Asian American men to go or were there segregated clubs,

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Speaker 1: adult entertainment clubs?

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Speaker 2: You think that's a really good question. And to my knowledge,

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Speaker 2: the clientele at the Fancy Pants Club was pretty diverse.

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Speaker 2: It was black and white. A lot of auto workers

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Speaker 2: just wanting to take a stressful day at the factory,

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Speaker 2: at the auto assembly line, go there have a good

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Speaker 2: time before they go home. So as far as I know,

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Speaker 2: I don't think there was any problems. And one reason

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Speaker 2: why I say that was one of the dancers who

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Speaker 2: testified said that he had been there before. Vincentin had

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Speaker 2: been to the Fancy Pants Club before, so they knew him,

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Speaker 2: and they said he was always a really nice young man,

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Speaker 2: and so obviously because he was a return customer, I

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Speaker 2: don't think he had any problems when he went there.

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Speaker 1: So Vincent and his three friends go to the Fancy

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Speaker 1: Pants and they hang out and they get some drinks

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Speaker 1: and look at the girls and all of that. When

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Speaker 1: do things start to go badly for Vincent?

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Speaker 2: They are having a great time. He had like four

221
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Speaker 2: hundred dollars in cash to tip the dancers, so he

222
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Speaker 2: was very popular that night. Later in the evening, Ronald

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Speaker 2: Evans and his step son Michael Nis, they were actually

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Speaker 2: driving to Tiger Stadium because the Milwaukee Brewers were playing

225
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Speaker 2: the Detroit Tigers, and as they were driving, they heard

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00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:02,839
Speaker 2: on the radio it was a blowout at the time,

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Speaker 2: the Milwaukee Brewers were killing the Detroit Tigers like ten

228
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Speaker 2: to three, and so they were like, okay, let's just

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Speaker 2: go home. They both played in an amateur baseball league,

230
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Speaker 2: and in fact, Michael K. Mitch was a talented young athlete.

231
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Speaker 2: In high school. He played on the baseball team. So

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Speaker 2: that's why they actually had a baseball bat in the

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Speaker 2: trunk because they would go to batting practice, they would

234
00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:25,520
Speaker 2: go to baseball games. As they're driving home, Ronald even

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00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:27,679
Speaker 2: sees the Fancy Pants Club and he says, Oh, I've

236
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Speaker 2: heard about that place. Maybe we'll go there, because he

237
00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:33,240
Speaker 2: was having a good bonding night with his steps. So

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Speaker 2: they end up going to the Fancy Pants Club. They

239
00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:40,560
Speaker 2: sit across the way and they're there, and then in

240
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Speaker 2: the evening, Vincent and his friends are having a blast,

241
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Speaker 2: and then they start to hear words from across the

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Speaker 2: way because people on the other side of the catwalk

243
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Speaker 2: were getting a little upset that all the dancers were

244
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Speaker 2: not going to them because they're going to Vincent because

245
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Speaker 2: he's flushed with cash. And then his friends testified in

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Speaker 2: court that they started to hear anti Asian racist slurs

247
00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:05,680
Speaker 2: and one of the dancers racing cool Well would later

248
00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:10,000
Speaker 2: testify in court that Ronald Ebans allegedly said it's because

249
00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:13,720
Speaker 2: of you little motherfuckers that were out of work. So

250
00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:19,360
Speaker 2: now what is probably just disgruntled customers, now it's crossed

251
00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:22,640
Speaker 2: the line. It's become racist, and against the backdrop of

252
00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:26,760
Speaker 2: increased anti Japanese and anti Asian sentiment set against this

253
00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:32,080
Speaker 2: backdrop of disgruntled laid off auto workers. So when those

254
00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:35,560
Speaker 2: words were being said at the club, what was just

255
00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:39,160
Speaker 2: a bunch of drunk guys yelling at each other turned racial,

256
00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:43,760
Speaker 2: and so Vincent went over and according to Ebans and

257
00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:47,600
Speaker 2: witness testimony, Vincent Chin actually threw the first punch and

258
00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:51,040
Speaker 2: then that led to a brawl, and somehow a chair

259
00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:53,960
Speaker 2: was thrown. Vincent ducked to the chair hit the back

260
00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:58,560
Speaker 2: of Michael Nitz's head. The bouncers rushed over. Everyone's trying

261
00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:01,040
Speaker 2: to pull these guys off each other. They're kicked out

262
00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:04,240
Speaker 2: of the club and in the parking lot, Vincent still,

263
00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:08,560
Speaker 2: according to court testimony, challenged Ronald Evans to continue the

264
00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:11,760
Speaker 2: fight in the parking lot. And so that's when Evans

265
00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:14,360
Speaker 2: goes to the car. Him and his steps on open

266
00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:16,000
Speaker 2: the trunk of the car and they pull out the

267
00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:19,280
Speaker 2: baseball bat which they used at the Amateur Baseball League,

268
00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:23,280
Speaker 2: which they used for batting practice, and it is ironically

269
00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:27,280
Speaker 2: a Jackie Robinson Louisville slugger. Vincent takes one look at

270
00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:30,600
Speaker 2: the bat and realizes, okay, this is escalated, and so

271
00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:34,840
Speaker 2: he runs off, and then Jimmy, his friend, runs after him.

272
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Speaker 2: Jimmy is of Chinese descent. His name is Jimmy Choi.

273
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Speaker 2: He runs after Vincent. Gary and Bob, who are white,

274
00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:45,160
Speaker 2: end up getting in the car and they race off

275
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Speaker 2: to try to catch Vincent and Jimmy. In the meantime,

276
00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:52,640
Speaker 2: Evans and Knits get in the car and they drive off,

277
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Speaker 2: so everyone's looking for Vincent. Vincent runs about maybe half

278
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Speaker 2: a mile down the road to a nearby McDonald's. He's

279
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Speaker 2: sitting on the curb outside the McDonald's parking lot. Jimmy

280
00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:05,440
Speaker 2: comes up to him. They sit down, they catch their breath,

281
00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:08,720
Speaker 2: and they wait because they're hoping Bob and Gary are

282
00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:10,840
Speaker 2: in the car trying to find them, because back then

283
00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:13,480
Speaker 2: we didn't have cell phones. Meet me here. They're just

284
00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:17,800
Speaker 2: hoping that the car is heading in their direction. But unfortunately,

285
00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:20,680
Speaker 2: the first car that pulls up is not Gary and Bob.

286
00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:23,720
Speaker 2: It's Ronald Evans and Michael Nitz. And they also now

287
00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:26,480
Speaker 2: have a passenger named Jimmy Perry, who was a young

288
00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:29,040
Speaker 2: black man in his early twenties who happened to be

289
00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:33,080
Speaker 2: walking down Woodward Avenue as Evans and Knits are driving by.

290
00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:35,520
Speaker 2: They pull up to him and they ask him to

291
00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:37,960
Speaker 2: help them. Now, this is the interesting thing, because this

292
00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:42,720
Speaker 2: is actually a very complicated case. There's a lot of misinformation.

293
00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:47,920
Speaker 2: So according to Jimmy Perry's court testimony, he testified that

294
00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:50,760
Speaker 2: the two men pulled up and asked him, we're looking

295
00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:54,440
Speaker 2: for two Chinese guys. And Jimmy testified that he saw

296
00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:57,200
Speaker 2: Vincent Chin run down the street, so he pointed he

297
00:16:57,240 --> 00:16:59,560
Speaker 2: went in that direction. They said, get in the car,

298
00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:02,440
Speaker 2: will give you twenty dollars to help us find them. Now,

299
00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:06,720
Speaker 2: Ronald Evans and Michael Knitz completely denied that story on

300
00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:09,720
Speaker 2: the stand in their court testimony. They said that did

301
00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:14,240
Speaker 2: not happen. They deny giving him twenty dollars. They deny

302
00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:18,240
Speaker 2: asking about two Chinese guys. Their side of the story

303
00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:21,720
Speaker 2: was Michael Nitz's head was bleeding. He needed stitches because

304
00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:24,520
Speaker 2: somehow the chair hit him against his head and he

305
00:17:24,600 --> 00:17:27,720
Speaker 2: was bleeding. They were looking for a hospital. The hospital

306
00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:31,680
Speaker 2: was just past the McDonald's. Gary and Bob also testified

307
00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:34,640
Speaker 2: that they were still in the parking lot because they

308
00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:37,480
Speaker 2: were scared because Evans and Knits actually took off first,

309
00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:40,080
Speaker 2: and so Gary and Bob are going to their car

310
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Speaker 2: to go, oh gosh, we got to get to our

311
00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:45,480
Speaker 2: friends before Evans and Knits do. They said in court

312
00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:48,760
Speaker 2: testimony that Evans and Knitz drove back because they thought

313
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Speaker 2: maybe Vincent had come back to the.

314
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Speaker 1: Parking lot, so they went back to the fancy pants.

315
00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:56,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, and he wasn't there, so then they took off again.

316
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Speaker 2: So for Gary and Bob and Jimmy their testimony, they

317
00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:03,880
Speaker 2: truly believe that Evans and Knitz did not cool down

318
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Speaker 2: oh yeah, and that they were still trying to find Vincent,

319
00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:09,880
Speaker 2: because they have testimony that they actually did come back

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Speaker 2: to the club and that was true.

321
00:18:12,119 --> 00:18:15,040
Speaker 1: So we're now back at McDonald's with Vincent and Jimmy.

322
00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:19,000
Speaker 2: So basically, Vincent and Jimmy are sitting outside the McDonald's

323
00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:22,760
Speaker 2: and Evens and Knitz are driving by. They see them,

324
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Speaker 2: and according to court testimony, Ronald Evans says, I saw

325
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Speaker 2: them laughing, and something snapped and he pulls over the car.

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Speaker 2: So I think what's interesting is whether or not Jimmy

327
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Speaker 2: Perry's story is true, whether or not it's actually Evans

328
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Speaker 2: and Knitz's story is true. They pulled over.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they end up in the same place in front

330
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Speaker 1: of the McDonald's.

331
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Speaker 2: And they were triggered by seeing Vincent laugh. Now, to

332
00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:51,440
Speaker 2: this day, I do have to say, Ronald Evans has

333
00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:54,760
Speaker 2: denied over and over on the record that he was racist.

334
00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:57,840
Speaker 2: He denies what he did was racist. He says it

335
00:18:57,880 --> 00:19:01,320
Speaker 2: was a horrible combination of too much to drink and

336
00:19:01,359 --> 00:19:05,719
Speaker 2: toxic masculinity. But the reason why activists and the reason

337
00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:09,480
Speaker 2: why the prosecutors stood by the story that they believe

338
00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:13,119
Speaker 2: that this had racial implications is because you have to

339
00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:15,960
Speaker 2: wonder if Vincent and Jimmy were white, would they still

340
00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:19,000
Speaker 2: have pulled over seen two white men laughing? Was their

341
00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:25,360
Speaker 2: confirmation bias? Was there racist microaggression? Was this confirmation bias

342
00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:29,000
Speaker 2: of how Asian American men should act, They should be meet,

343
00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:31,840
Speaker 2: they should not rock the boat, they should be demasculated.

344
00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:35,960
Speaker 2: Those were the terrible racist stereotypes of Asian American men

345
00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:38,959
Speaker 2: back then, and Vincent defined all that he was an

346
00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:50,440
Speaker 2: all American guy.

347
00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:56,879
Speaker 1: Well, it sounds like these two stories are so separated.

348
00:19:57,000 --> 00:20:01,080
Speaker 1: It's a case for first degree murder versus manslaughter. Right,

349
00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:04,040
Speaker 1: if you believe Jimmy Perry that he was picked up

350
00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:07,280
Speaker 1: specifically to track down these two men, and if you

351
00:20:07,359 --> 00:20:10,479
Speaker 1: believe Gary and Bob who say, listen, we saw them return,

352
00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:13,000
Speaker 1: they didn't cool down. They were clearly looking for him.

353
00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:16,960
Speaker 1: That seems like premeditated, a planned action, versus we just

354
00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:19,960
Speaker 1: randomly found them and they were laughing and I snapped

355
00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:21,200
Speaker 1: because I was drunk.

356
00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:25,159
Speaker 2: You summarized that beautifully. Yes, and in fact, there was

357
00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:26,960
Speaker 2: a first pre murder charge.

358
00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:30,600
Speaker 1: Okay, Ronald claims that he's been triggered. So what happens next?

359
00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:33,719
Speaker 2: They get out of the car. Ronald Evans is still

360
00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:36,720
Speaker 2: holding the bat. According to witnesses, he goes over and

361
00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:39,680
Speaker 2: he hits some Vincent tries to run. He runs into

362
00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:42,720
Speaker 2: the middle of the street. According to witness testimony, Michael

363
00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:46,320
Speaker 2: Nitz grabbed him, held him so Ronald Evans could hit

364
00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:50,080
Speaker 2: him again. There are differing witness accounts of exactly how

365
00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:52,679
Speaker 2: many times he was hit, whether or not he was hitten,

366
00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:55,399
Speaker 2: but he was hit several times to the point that

367
00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:59,960
Speaker 2: he went into a coma. Coincidentally, there were two police officers.

368
00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:04,679
Speaker 2: There's two young black police officers who were rookies that

369
00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:08,840
Speaker 2: were working that night, Michael garden Higher and Morse Cotton.

370
00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:12,600
Speaker 2: They were both working there and they were moonlighting.

371
00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:14,240
Speaker 1: As security at McDonald's.

372
00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:15,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, at the McDonald's.

373
00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:18,800
Speaker 1: Oh wow, so the McDonald's. That McDonald's needed security in

374
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Speaker 1: that area of natural and.

375
00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:22,040
Speaker 2: They both had their guns. They were playing clothes, but

376
00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:25,160
Speaker 2: they had their badges, so they rush over to try

377
00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:28,080
Speaker 2: to stop it. They were able to stop Ronald Evens

378
00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:31,880
Speaker 2: from delivering the final blow and even stropped the bat.

379
00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:33,040
Speaker 2: They both were arrested.

380
00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:35,960
Speaker 1: There's a crowd at McDonald's watching this happen.

381
00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:39,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, And in fact, there was another witness that pulled over. Wow,

382
00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:42,280
Speaker 2: there was a crowd of people was maybe about a

383
00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:45,399
Speaker 2: dozen or so, just enough, and that's a lot, you know,

384
00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:49,399
Speaker 2: when this is happening. And honestly, I think everything happens

385
00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:52,199
Speaker 2: so fast, and it's hard because how do you go

386
00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:54,680
Speaker 2: up to a man with a baseball bat? Yeah, seriously,

387
00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:57,600
Speaker 2: and their police with their guns are drawn. It's very

388
00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:03,080
Speaker 2: very volatile, incredibly brutal, violent, a dangerous dangerous situation. So

389
00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:06,520
Speaker 2: then Jimmy runs over and Gary and Bob meanwhile, they

390
00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:09,560
Speaker 2: went in the other direction, so they never caught up

391
00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:12,639
Speaker 2: with Vincent and Jimmy. They actually went back to the

392
00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:17,040
Speaker 2: Golden Star restaurant because they thought somehow maybe Vincent had

393
00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:20,040
Speaker 2: gotten back to where he worked that night. So they

394
00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:23,439
Speaker 2: go to the restaurant, They're like, where's Vincent? And that

395
00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:27,280
Speaker 2: was when the waiter at the restaurant said, you didn't

396
00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:30,520
Speaker 2: hear he's in the hospital, and their heart's dropped. Now

397
00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:33,960
Speaker 2: let's go back to McDonald's. While Gary and Bob are

398
00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:36,639
Speaker 2: driving in the car with the idea of let's go

399
00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:39,640
Speaker 2: back to the restaurant because maybe he luckily ended up there.

400
00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:42,720
Speaker 2: While they're driving to the Golden Star, Vincent is lying

401
00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:46,880
Speaker 2: in Jimmy Troy's arms as the paramedics come over, and

402
00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:50,560
Speaker 2: Jimmy testified in court that Vincent's last words to him

403
00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:54,359
Speaker 2: before he slipped into a coma where it's not fair.

404
00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:58,960
Speaker 2: Jimmy got into the ambulance and they went to henry

405
00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:03,920
Speaker 2: Ford Hospital where doctors performed all night brain surgery trying

406
00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:06,480
Speaker 2: to reduce the swelling in his head. And then what

407
00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:09,400
Speaker 2: happened from there was. He was in a coma for

408
00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:12,520
Speaker 2: four days. Gary and Bob, meanwhile are at the restaurant.

409
00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:15,520
Speaker 2: They're told, your friend he's at the hospital. Oh my god.

410
00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:18,800
Speaker 2: They go over to the hospital. At this point, Lily's

411
00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:21,680
Speaker 2: woken up by the owner of the restaurant saying, we

412
00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:25,320
Speaker 2: got to go to the hospital. Vicky is told about this.

413
00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:27,840
Speaker 2: By the time Gary and Bog get there, the family

414
00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:31,280
Speaker 2: is there, plus a lot of friends, and they see

415
00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:34,320
Speaker 2: their friend with his head shaved in the ICU. Then

416
00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:37,359
Speaker 2: they can see the scar. It's railroad tracks against his

417
00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:40,200
Speaker 2: bare skull where the bat hit him. I don't remember

418
00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:42,560
Speaker 2: the exact amount, but he was hit in the shoulder,

419
00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:45,520
Speaker 2: in the leg, in the arm, and in the head.

420
00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:47,040
Speaker 1: Because he was moving around so much.

421
00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:50,040
Speaker 2: Exactly. He was in a kalma for four days. And

422
00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:52,800
Speaker 2: there was a young surgeon at the time who then

423
00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:54,800
Speaker 2: went to Lily and said that we did the best

424
00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:58,280
Speaker 2: we could. He's brain dead, and four days later they

425
00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:00,960
Speaker 2: had to take him off life support, and so he

426
00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:04,040
Speaker 2: was beaten into a coma on June nineteenth, nineteen eighty two.

427
00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:07,200
Speaker 2: June twenty third, nineteen eighty two was when they took

428
00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:09,800
Speaker 2: him off life support, and then he was buried on

429
00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:13,199
Speaker 2: June twenty ninth, nineteen eighty two, one day after the

430
00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:16,399
Speaker 2: June twenty eighth wedding was supposed to take place, and

431
00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:20,960
Speaker 2: all the wedding guests went to the funeral instead of the.

432
00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:24,199
Speaker 1: Wedding, and his Beyonce VICKI must have just been devastated.

433
00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:25,040
Speaker 1: How terrible.

434
00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:29,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, I can't even imagine the pain. It breaks my heart.

435
00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:32,119
Speaker 2: And I mean at the time that he was in

436
00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:34,600
Speaker 2: a coma, they were getting wedding presents, were being delivered

437
00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:36,919
Speaker 2: to the house, they were preparing for the wedding.

438
00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:40,200
Speaker 1: In the meantime, we have Ronald and Michael who have

439
00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:44,040
Speaker 1: been arrested. So they are now weighing first degree murder

440
00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:48,280
Speaker 1: versus second degree versus manslaughter. Why do they initially land

441
00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:49,359
Speaker 1: on first degree murder?

442
00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:52,760
Speaker 2: It was premeditated because some time had gone by since

443
00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:54,800
Speaker 2: they had been kicked out of the club. My guess

444
00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:57,240
Speaker 2: it was a half hour between when they got kicked

445
00:24:57,240 --> 00:24:59,800
Speaker 2: out of the club and when the beating happened. One

446
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:03,720
Speaker 2: judge who heard all the witness statements when they were

447
00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:07,720
Speaker 2: deliberating second degree murder, he said they had enough time

448
00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:10,880
Speaker 2: to let the blood cool down, and so they ended

449
00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:13,359
Speaker 2: up ruling it second degree murder. But there was an

450
00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:15,880
Speaker 2: interview with one of the judges, Thomas Bale, and he said,

451
00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:18,520
Speaker 2: looking back, we should have stuck with first degree, but

452
00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:21,720
Speaker 2: at that point it was second degree murder. And Eban

453
00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:25,160
Speaker 2: spent the night in that jail cell and Michael Ntz

454
00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:28,240
Speaker 2: was released. He wrote statement. He was released, went to

455
00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:30,560
Speaker 2: get stitches at the hospital. His mom came to pick

456
00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:34,320
Speaker 2: him up. The defense attorney showed up and got him out.

457
00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:37,320
Speaker 2: Then from there that's when the plea bargaining started, and

458
00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:40,359
Speaker 2: then it was reduced to manslaughter. And it was reduced

459
00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:42,879
Speaker 2: to manslaughter because there were no iPhones, there was no

460
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:46,240
Speaker 2: video surveillance cameras. It was definitely a he said, he said,

461
00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:49,280
Speaker 2: she said thing, and a lot of people were drunk.

462
00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:50,879
Speaker 2: It was late at night. You have a lot of

463
00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:54,840
Speaker 2: unreliable witnesses. So they thought a second degree murder trial

464
00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:57,120
Speaker 2: is going to cost a lot of taxpayer money, it's

465
00:25:57,160 --> 00:25:58,959
Speaker 2: going to take a lot of time, and it's going

466
00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:01,439
Speaker 2: to be very very hard to prove. It's a risky

467
00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:04,439
Speaker 2: mood if we do that, if we lower this to manslaughter,

468
00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:07,880
Speaker 2: they'll definitely get jail time, of course, because they're definitely

469
00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:11,760
Speaker 2: guilty of anything, at least manslaughter, So that's why they

470
00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:13,720
Speaker 2: decided to do that, because they thought it would be

471
00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:14,680
Speaker 2: a cut and drug case.

472
00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:19,679
Speaker 1: Did the phrase hate crime exist in legal jargon in

473
00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:21,480
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty two, No, it.

474
00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:24,040
Speaker 2: Did not, so back then we didn't have the language

475
00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:27,160
Speaker 2: back then to call it a hate crime. On March sixteenth,

476
00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:30,320
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty three, there was a hearing held in a

477
00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:34,800
Speaker 2: Detroit courtroom under Judge Charles Kaufman. This was the manslaughter

478
00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:38,120
Speaker 2: hearing for Ronald Evans and Michael Nitz. They were there,

479
00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:42,399
Speaker 2: as were their defense attorneys. However, the prosecutor's office was

480
00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:46,160
Speaker 2: physically unable to attend because they were overburdened with many

481
00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:50,560
Speaker 2: other hearings. So, unfortunately for Vincent Chinn, the prosecutor's office

482
00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:54,040
Speaker 2: was not able to attend that March sixteenth, nineteen eighty

483
00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:58,520
Speaker 2: three hearing. So Judge Charles Kaufman had limited evidence. He

484
00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:02,000
Speaker 2: just had what was presented before him. And in addition,

485
00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:05,240
Speaker 2: Lily Chin's family was never told that the hearing was

486
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:08,040
Speaker 2: taking place, so that's why they did not show up. Wow,

487
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:11,320
Speaker 2: So Judge Charles Kaufman is going over the limited information

488
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:14,880
Speaker 2: he has and both men pled guilty to manslaughter, and

489
00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:19,040
Speaker 2: Ebans and Knits expressed remorse for what they did. Judge

490
00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:21,640
Speaker 2: Kaufman took one look at their records and realized they'd

491
00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:24,280
Speaker 2: never been to jail before, never gotten into trouble before

492
00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:27,160
Speaker 2: in the law. You know, at the time before the incident,

493
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:30,359
Speaker 2: Ronald Ebens was a foreman at Chrysler, he was in management.

494
00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:33,000
Speaker 2: He too was living the American dream at the time.

495
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:35,960
Speaker 2: Michael Knitz had just been laid off from Chrysler working

496
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:38,040
Speaker 2: the line, but he was working part time at a

497
00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:41,880
Speaker 2: furniture store and going back to college. And so Judge

498
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:44,960
Speaker 2: Kaufman looked at their family background, their work history, the

499
00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:47,119
Speaker 2: fact that they had never been in trouble before with

500
00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:49,639
Speaker 2: the law, and he was known as a merciful judge,

501
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:53,159
Speaker 2: so he said, let the punishment fit the criminal, not

502
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:55,879
Speaker 2: the crime. These two men aren't going to go out

503
00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:58,320
Speaker 2: and do this again. So he gave them a fine

504
00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:00,920
Speaker 2: of three thousand dollars each. He gave them both three

505
00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:05,440
Speaker 2: years probation. And this shocked everyone because the reason why

506
00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:08,359
Speaker 2: I got plea bargained down to manslaughter was everyone thought

507
00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:11,439
Speaker 2: they're definitely guilty. They're gonna plead guilty to manslaughter. It

508
00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:14,760
Speaker 2: was such a violent crime. The nurse didn't even recognize

509
00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:19,600
Speaker 2: Vincent Chin's face from his ID photo. Obviously, these guys

510
00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:22,920
Speaker 2: are going to jail. And then Judge Kaufman says, quote unquote,

511
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:26,000
Speaker 2: let the punishment fit the criminal, not the crime, and

512
00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:28,760
Speaker 2: they get probation. Nobody saw that coming.

513
00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:32,040
Speaker 1: Nobody, And you have so much leeway with manslaughter, and

514
00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:33,639
Speaker 1: he could probably have done anything. I don't know what

515
00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:35,680
Speaker 1: the maximum fifteen years, maybe it.

516
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:37,520
Speaker 2: Was zero to fifteen years.

517
00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:39,440
Speaker 1: Okay, Yeah, And here's the thing.

518
00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:42,040
Speaker 2: To this day, Ronald Ebans and I have to say this,

519
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:46,080
Speaker 2: to this day, Ronald Ebans has denied in a court

520
00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:49,760
Speaker 2: of law ever saying that he basically says he doesn't remember.

521
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:54,720
Speaker 2: He basically blacked out. He doesn't remember anything. After seeing

522
00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:58,640
Speaker 2: Vincent laugh, something snapped, and the next thing he knows,

523
00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:01,400
Speaker 2: he's holding a baseball bat, there's a gun in his face,

524
00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:04,240
Speaker 2: and there is a young man bleeding out on the pavement.

525
00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:06,200
Speaker 1: Do you believe that that he blacked out?

526
00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:08,880
Speaker 2: I know the jury didn't. In the first trial. They

527
00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:11,320
Speaker 2: said that he was an unreliable witness, and they said

528
00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:14,600
Speaker 2: that he conveniently forgot things at the right moment. And

529
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:17,360
Speaker 2: so his testimony is part of why he was found

530
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:20,760
Speaker 2: guilty in the first trial. As for myself, I do

531
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:23,200
Speaker 2: believe that when you go into a rage, you do

532
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:25,880
Speaker 2: get tunnel vision. It's like what soldiers have to do

533
00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:29,080
Speaker 2: and they get tunneled or police officers under attacker. When

534
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:32,200
Speaker 2: any of us are under attacker, we lose our temper. Yeah,

535
00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:35,400
Speaker 2: we do get tunnel vision, but do I believe it.

536
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:38,320
Speaker 2: So my job as a journalist is to be fair.

537
00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:41,760
Speaker 2: I can't be objective. I have my own opinions, but

538
00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:44,239
Speaker 2: I do think no matter what I think, it was

539
00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:47,800
Speaker 2: obviously a tragedy and I think we'll never know for sure.

540
00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:51,680
Speaker 2: But at this point it doesn't matter if we'll never

541
00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:54,280
Speaker 2: know for sure. All we do know for sure was

542
00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:57,320
Speaker 2: an innocent young man was killed in a violent rage

543
00:29:57,720 --> 00:29:59,560
Speaker 2: and the justice was not served.

544
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:02,160
Speaker 1: Tell me about the reaction when.

545
00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:05,120
Speaker 2: The Chinese American community found out and when Lily Chin

546
00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:08,680
Speaker 2: found out what happened. Lily Chin was devastated. She didn't understand.

547
00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:10,440
Speaker 2: She because they killed my son, why are they not

548
00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:13,760
Speaker 2: going to jail? And she herself even said, what if

549
00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:17,480
Speaker 2: the two killers were Chinese and the victim was white,

550
00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:19,440
Speaker 2: do you think they would have let the punishment fit

551
00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:22,400
Speaker 2: the criminal, not the crime. Hmm, what does that really mean?

552
00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:25,479
Speaker 2: So she wrote an angry letter to the Chinese Welfare

553
00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 2: Detroit Council and they got upset and they started having meetings.

554
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:33,800
Speaker 2: And this is when many Chinese American and also Asian American, Japanese,

555
00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:37,280
Speaker 2: all Asian Americans, was specifically a lot of Chinese Americans.

556
00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:40,920
Speaker 2: They started having meetings and they got upset and they said,

557
00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:45,120
Speaker 2: this isn't right, this isn't fair. Many activists and attorneys

558
00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:49,160
Speaker 2: and community members they all got together along with Lily Chin,

559
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:52,720
Speaker 2: and they decided they would fight back. They formed an

560
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:57,280
Speaker 2: ad hoc grassroots activist group that they called American Citizens

561
00:30:57,280 --> 00:31:01,240
Speaker 2: for Justice, and then they started writing press releases, they

562
00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:05,320
Speaker 2: started setting out flyers. They organized a huge rally in

563
00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:08,840
Speaker 2: Detroit outside the courts in May of nineteen eighty three,

564
00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:12,480
Speaker 2: and it's estimating between five hundred to one thousand Asian

565
00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:16,120
Speaker 2: Americans showed up and also other diverse people, but a

566
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:19,200
Speaker 2: lot of Asian Americans showed up for that rally, and

567
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:21,680
Speaker 2: it was the first time anyone had seen that many

568
00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:24,680
Speaker 2: Asian Americans in the heart of Detroit. Because the Asian

569
00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:27,360
Speaker 2: American community I have to remember was very small in Michigan.

570
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:31,320
Speaker 2: It was minuscule. I think barely one percent or somewhere

571
00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:34,640
Speaker 2: between one to three percent of the population was Asian

572
00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:38,800
Speaker 2: in Detroit and in Michigan, very very tiny number. So

573
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:43,520
Speaker 2: it was really empowering and amazed to see all these

574
00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:47,120
Speaker 2: Asian Americans with picket signs saying justice for Vincent Chin.

575
00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:51,640
Speaker 2: And in fact, all the downtown Chinatown Chinese restaurants they

576
00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:53,960
Speaker 2: shut down during their busiest hour where they make the

577
00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:57,440
Speaker 2: most money. They shuk down so the weight staff could

578
00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:00,320
Speaker 2: go and protest wow, because he was one of their own.

579
00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:04,640
Speaker 2: But then what made Vincent Chin different and really put

580
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:07,800
Speaker 2: the Asian American movement on the map is that up

581
00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:12,200
Speaker 2: until nineteen eighty three, the term Asian American was not

582
00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:16,800
Speaker 2: used very often. In nineteen sixty eight, two young Asian

583
00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:20,520
Speaker 2: American Berkeley students that you see Berkeley coined the term

584
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:24,760
Speaker 2: Asian American out of solidarity with the Black Panther movement

585
00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:27,880
Speaker 2: and the civil rights movement. And so in nineteen eighty three,

586
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:30,120
Speaker 2: if you said Asian American, the people who knew that

587
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:32,720
Speaker 2: term would be, oh, you must be a college activist.

588
00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:37,040
Speaker 2: That's what those kids use in the nineteen eighties. You

589
00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:40,800
Speaker 2: were Chinese American, you were Korean American, you were Filipino American,

590
00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:43,120
Speaker 2: you were Indian American, you were Japanese American. You were

591
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:47,000
Speaker 2: not Asian American. All the different Asian countries and communities

592
00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:51,280
Speaker 2: were their own little islands. So when Vincent Chin happened

593
00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:55,920
Speaker 2: and the Chinese American community protested, Gip Shimura, who was

594
00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:58,680
Speaker 2: an advocate and attorney, joined in. His family had been

595
00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:02,600
Speaker 2: in Detroit for generation. He was Japanese American, and he

596
00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:05,960
Speaker 2: had fought for reparations for the illegal incarceration of the

597
00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:09,200
Speaker 2: Japanese Americans. He was very involved, very politically involved in that.

598
00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:12,719
Speaker 2: So he got involved even though he's not Chinese Japanese American,

599
00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:15,680
Speaker 2: but he said he felt solidarity with the Chinese American movement.

600
00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:18,760
Speaker 2: So did all the other Asian groups. So that's how

601
00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:22,720
Speaker 2: Asian American became a mainstream term. And the other beautiful

602
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:26,240
Speaker 2: thing that happened was the black community in Detroit also

603
00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:30,000
Speaker 2: got involved. Congressman John Conyers, Jesse Jackson, who was a

604
00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:33,280
Speaker 2: presidential candidate at the time, they all got involved. And

605
00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:36,959
Speaker 2: in fact, the Asian American activist I interviewed said, we

606
00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:39,880
Speaker 2: owe a debt of gratitude to the African American community

607
00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:44,600
Speaker 2: in Detroit because they helped our story go national, and

608
00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:48,680
Speaker 2: in fact, Jesse Jackson became close friends with Lily Chin.

609
00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:52,360
Speaker 2: When the Atlanta SPA shootings happened in March of twenty

610
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:57,480
Speaker 2: twenty one, Jesse Jackson the next day wrote a beautiful

611
00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:00,400
Speaker 2: essay about it for the Chicago Sun Time in which

612
00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:03,240
Speaker 2: he talked about Vincent Chin and his dear friendship with

613
00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:07,000
Speaker 2: Lilichin and said, we're seeing the same thing happen in Atlanta,

614
00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:10,600
Speaker 2: and we have to uphold Vincent and Elchian's legacy. That

615
00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:14,400
Speaker 2: was such a beautiful show of solidarity from the black community,

616
00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:17,920
Speaker 2: and so going back, this was a very diverse. This

617
00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:21,080
Speaker 2: went from being not just an Asian American protest, but

618
00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:26,920
Speaker 2: an all American protests because churches, synagogues, the Latino LATINX community,

619
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:32,560
Speaker 2: the black community, everybody, everybody got involved. This started getting

620
00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:35,960
Speaker 2: national attention. This became front page news across the country.

621
00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:39,399
Speaker 2: When you watched the evening news with Dan Rather and

622
00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:41,640
Speaker 2: Peter Jenning, is Ta broken. This was the top of

623
00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:43,719
Speaker 2: the news story and it went all the way to

624
00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:47,160
Speaker 2: la In fact, Asian Americans in Los Angeles started reaching

625
00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:51,400
Speaker 2: out to Detroit saying, how can I help spread like wildfire, like.

626
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:53,240
Speaker 1: A flashpoint, right for a movement?

627
00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:57,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, And in fact, Asian Americans across the country started

628
00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:01,920
Speaker 2: protesting for Vincent Chin. San Francisco, Shook, La, d C,

629
00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:06,640
Speaker 2: New York. There were similar protests across the country. No

630
00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:09,319
Speaker 2: one had ever seen something like this before, and so

631
00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:12,920
Speaker 2: because of that, the Department of Justice got involved. Lilly

632
00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:16,240
Speaker 2: Chin and a group of Asian American activists and lawyers.

633
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:19,520
Speaker 2: They went to d C to speak with the Department

634
00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:23,000
Speaker 2: of Justice. That led to a federal investigation. So in

635
00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:27,160
Speaker 2: November of nineteen eighty three, Ronald Ebans and Michael Knitz

636
00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:31,719
Speaker 2: were charged with violating Vincent Chin's civil rights on two counts,

637
00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:36,640
Speaker 2: one count of conspiracy and one count of preventing Vincent

638
00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:40,960
Speaker 2: Chin from using a place of public accommodation on account

639
00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:44,239
Speaker 2: of his race. And that place of public accommodation was

640
00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:47,160
Speaker 2: the Fancy Pants Club. His civil rights were violated on

641
00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:48,120
Speaker 2: account of his race.

642
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:50,480
Speaker 1: Did it work with Ronald and Michael.

643
00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:53,040
Speaker 2: So what happened was there was a trial in nineteen

644
00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:56,240
Speaker 2: eighty four. Both men were indicted on those two counts.

645
00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:59,600
Speaker 2: There was a federal trial, and it was the first

646
00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:02,840
Speaker 2: federal civil rights trial on behalf of an Asian American

647
00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:06,480
Speaker 2: because in the nineteen eighties, the ACLU did not consider

648
00:36:06,719 --> 00:36:10,880
Speaker 2: Asians protected under the Civil Rights Act. Back then, racism

649
00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:15,520
Speaker 2: was simply a black and white issue. So in nineteen

650
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:18,960
Speaker 2: eighty four, Michael Knitz was clear. He was acquitted of

651
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:21,640
Speaker 2: both counts. He was found not guilty because also he

652
00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:25,000
Speaker 2: never held the bat Ronald Eves was found guilty of

653
00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:28,480
Speaker 2: one count of violating Vincent Chint's right to be in

654
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:31,840
Speaker 2: a place of public accommodation Fancy Pants Club on account

655
00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:34,200
Speaker 2: of his race. So he was found guilty of that

656
00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:37,440
Speaker 2: sentenced to twenty five years of jail. I interviewed the

657
00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:41,560
Speaker 2: defense attorneys. They argued that there was a technical error,

658
00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:44,759
Speaker 2: and the technical error was this. They claimed that three

659
00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:49,520
Speaker 2: of the witnesses, Vincent Chin's best friends, Gary Koivu, Bob Seroski,

660
00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:54,960
Speaker 2: and Jimmy Troy, were coached and so their testimony was corrupted.

661
00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:58,400
Speaker 2: The US six Court of Appeals reviewed the case and

662
00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:01,640
Speaker 2: they agreed. Wow, so they had to do the trial

663
00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:04,800
Speaker 2: all over again, and this time because they moved the

664
00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:08,600
Speaker 2: venue from Detroit to Cincinnati, so it was an all white,

665
00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:12,399
Speaker 2: mostly male jury, and this time it was just enough

666
00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:14,880
Speaker 2: to leave the door open. Plan seated doubt in the

667
00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:19,080
Speaker 2: juror's minds, and so they ended up deciding to acquit

668
00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:22,279
Speaker 2: Ronald Ebans and they reversed the guilty verdict, so he

669
00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:26,040
Speaker 2: was found not guilty. So to this day, legally in

670
00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:29,800
Speaker 2: a court of law, technically Ronald Ebens and Michael Knitz

671
00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:36,120
Speaker 2: are technically legally not guilty of violating Vincent Chin's civil

672
00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:38,920
Speaker 2: rights on account of his race. So at the end

673
00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:43,279
Speaker 2: of the day, we lost. We lost the battle, but

674
00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:46,400
Speaker 2: we did not lose the war. Because after that, Vincent

675
00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:51,280
Speaker 2: Chin's name became a symbol. Every time something anti Asian happened,

676
00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:54,680
Speaker 2: people would go, remember Vincent Chin, don't let this happen again.

677
00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:57,719
Speaker 2: This is when a lot of the Asian American community realized,

678
00:37:57,880 --> 00:38:01,080
Speaker 2: like Lily, I came here, not tot. I want to

679
00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:03,920
Speaker 2: do the American dream. And that's when a lot of

680
00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:06,880
Speaker 2: the more conservative Asian Americans realized, we have to have

681
00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:10,359
Speaker 2: a voice. We have to start running for office, we

682
00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:12,040
Speaker 2: have to go to law school, and we have to

683
00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:13,759
Speaker 2: get involved in the court system. We have to be

684
00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:17,480
Speaker 2: activists in order to be really American, which we are.

685
00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:21,200
Speaker 2: We're one hundred percent American, but nobody believes that we're

686
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:25,600
Speaker 2: considered the perpetual foreigner. There's xenophobia, there's racism. We have

687
00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:29,800
Speaker 2: to fight back. So a whole generation of Asian American

688
00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:35,040
Speaker 2: lawyers and judges and politicians were inspired by Vincent chitp

689
00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:38,120
Speaker 2: to go into public service, you know, all because of

690
00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:41,680
Speaker 2: Vincent Chin. So that's why even though we lost, we

691
00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:46,680
Speaker 2: didn't really I think that's the victory.

692
00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:52,400
Speaker 1: On the next episode of Wicked Words, Sarah Weinman on

693
00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:55,040
Speaker 1: the killer who charmed a conservative icon.

694
00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:57,920
Speaker 3: So I go there thinking it's just going to be

695
00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:02,120
Speaker 3: typical professional correspondent between Edgar and Sophie, and then I

696
00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:04,240
Speaker 3: start reading and my jaw drops.

697
00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:06,160
Speaker 1: Because it's very much the opposite.

698
00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:09,200
Speaker 3: But it was really important for me, and thus it's

699
00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:12,600
Speaker 3: important for the listener and the reader to remember that

700
00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:16,920
Speaker 3: this woman is engaging in this very inappropriate relationship with

701
00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:19,560
Speaker 3: a man who she thinks that he didn't do it,

702
00:39:19,640 --> 00:39:22,160
Speaker 3: but it's very possible, and of course now we know

703
00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:36,560
Speaker 3: he did murder a teenage girl. My new book All

704
00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:39,720
Speaker 3: That Is Wicked is available for pre order now, including

705
00:39:39,719 --> 00:39:42,239
Speaker 3: the audiobook All That Is Wicked is based on our

706
00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:44,880
Speaker 3: first season of tenfold War Wicked. You might think you

707
00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:47,880
Speaker 3: know the whole story of killer Edward Ruloff's crimes, but

708
00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:51,480
Speaker 3: there's so much more. My book American Sherlock is also available.

709
00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:55,000
Speaker 3: This has been an exactly right tenfold war media production.

710
00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:59,200
Speaker 3: The producer is Alexis Mrosi, Our mixer is Ryo Baum.

711
00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:02,359
Speaker 1: Our sound designer is Andrew Epen. Curtis heath Is. Our

712
00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:06,680
Speaker 1: composer Nick Toga did the artwork. Il Sabrink designed the website.

713
00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:11,720
Speaker 1: The executive producers are Georgia Hartstark, Karen Kilgarriff and Danielle Kramer.

714
00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:15,719
Speaker 1: Follow Wicked Words on Instagram and Facebook at tenfold more

715
00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:18,960
Speaker 1: Wicked and on Twitter at tenfold More and If you

716
00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:21,760
Speaker 1: know of a historical crime that could use some attention,

717
00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:25,600
Speaker 1: especially if it happened in your family, email us at

718
00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:29,719
Speaker 1: info at tenfoldmoar Wicked dot com. We'll also take your

719
00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:32,920
Speaker 1: suggestions for true crime authors for Wicked Words