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Speaker 1: Hello, I'm Dessa, and this is deeply human. Unless you

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Speaker 1: are listening to this program in the shower, sunbathing on

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Speaker 1: a progressive beach, or as a fresh born babe, you

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Speaker 1: are probably wearing clothing even if it's hot out, which

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Speaker 1: is strange when you think about it. No other animals

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Speaker 1: fashion garments to conceal their private parts. And that sentence

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Speaker 1: probably doesn't make much sense because I doubt other animals

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Speaker 1: bother sorting public parts from private ones. So why do

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Speaker 1: we like, listener? Why aren't you naked? When my little

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Speaker 1: brother was small, maybe six or seven, he hit a

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Speaker 1: sleep walking stage, well like sleep running really. It usually

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Speaker 1: happened shortly after his bedtime. When my mom and I

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Speaker 1: would be chatting on her big bed. We hear rapid

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Speaker 1: footfalls coming from down the hall, and we'd make way

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Speaker 1: because we knew that in a moment my brother would

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Speaker 1: be rounding the corner sand's pajamas and would leap like

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Speaker 1: a little naked starfish onto her bed. Then we would

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Speaker 1: take great care not to wake him up and embarrass

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Speaker 1: him before guiding him back to bed. We were more

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Speaker 1: concerned about this kid being ashamed of his nakedness than

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Speaker 1: we were of him, like launching himself out the window.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk to a naked grown up. Now, can you

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Speaker 1: introduce yourself like the way that you would at a party.

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Speaker 1: I can give it a go. Hi, I'm Mark, I'm

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Speaker 1: a party. I get nervous for a dude with some

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Speaker 1: self professed social anxiety in Mark went on national television

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Speaker 1: in the UK and got totally naked. So Naked Attraction

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Speaker 1: is a Channel four TV show where the dating happens

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Speaker 1: in reverse. They say, basically as six naked people in

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Speaker 1: the studio and the pick he gets to choose a

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Speaker 1: person to go on a date with by it gradually

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Speaker 1: seeing their nude body. I cannot emphasize enough how insane

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Speaker 1: this TV show is. I first stumbled across it a

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Speaker 1: couple of years ago channel surfing in a London hotel room,

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Speaker 1: and I spent the next hour in sustained shock. The

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Speaker 1: format itself was like pretty pedestrian, one person fix a

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Speaker 1: date out of a panel of contestants, but all the

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Speaker 1: guests get completely naked. And when I say completely, I'm

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Speaker 1: not talking about like demure poses with crossed legs or

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Speaker 1: topless women peeking coyly over a bare shoulder. I am

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Speaker 1: talking like close ups of genitals in studio lighting on

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Speaker 1: Network TV and Light ten PM. If I own curls,

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Speaker 1: I'd have to be typing these scripts one handed because

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Speaker 1: I would still be clutching them. But to Mark, who

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Speaker 1: was gearing up to re enter the dating pool, this

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Speaker 1: sort of terrifying challenge. It was kind of like cross

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Speaker 1: training for taking the Plunge. In many ways, it's more

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Speaker 1: scary to go out on a date and meet someone

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Speaker 1: new and get naked with them for the first time

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Speaker 1: than it is to go on an actual TV shot.

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Speaker 1: Our unclothed bodies do seem sort of fragile, such a

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Speaker 1: vast expanse of bear skin to a braid or chill

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Speaker 1: or burn or bruise. Naked people are just so naked humans,

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Speaker 1: you might recall from a bio class of your are

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Speaker 1: sometimes called the naked ape. We lost our fur about

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Speaker 1: a million years ago, and there are a few theories

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Speaker 1: as to why. The most popular asserts that our bear

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Speaker 1: skin helps us sweat to stop us from overheating. Anthropologist

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Speaker 1: nenigibal on Ski I study human skin, including the evolution

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Speaker 1: of nakedness and what it means to have naked skin.

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Speaker 1: What is not intuitive to me is if we evolved

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Speaker 1: over a fi fillion generations to be furless, then why

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Speaker 1: did we turn around and start wearing fur stolen from

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Speaker 1: other animals. Probably one of the first things we did

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Speaker 1: was cover ourselves up at night. Humans, like other primates,

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Speaker 1: would have been good at huddling with one another to

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Speaker 1: keep warm, and certainly we also used furs and animal hides.

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Speaker 1: As humans began to move outside of the tropics, we

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Speaker 1: get cold at night and invent blankets. Okay, that tracks,

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Speaker 1: But when does shame enter the picture? Because it seems

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Speaker 1: like and even the hottest of climbs, humans usually cover

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Speaker 1: themselves up, even with only a tiny little scrap of fabric,

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Speaker 1: and those genital coverings don't seem to serve any meaningful

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Speaker 1: purpose for thermal regulation. It's not like, man, I'm freezing,

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Speaker 1: can I borrow your fig leaf? So what's going on there?

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Speaker 1: What's with the whole modesty business? People were living, you know,

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Speaker 1: cheek by jowl, and one can imagine that there would

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Speaker 1: be certain situations in which the condition of the genitals

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Speaker 1: would cause some kind of social disruption. Let's just say gently,

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Speaker 1: let's try to get this past the censors together. Nina

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Speaker 1: what are you talking about? If you're in a close

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Speaker 1: social group, sometimes those interactions between individuals that cause visible

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Speaker 1: excitation would be considered anti social. It's like we're concealing

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Speaker 1: sensitive information as much as we're concealing the anatomy itself.

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Speaker 1: Who's roused or who's on their period. And sometimes modesty

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Speaker 1: isn't only about clothes. Modesty isn't necessarily about of rain up,

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Speaker 1: but it's about removing yourself from the greater social group

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Speaker 1: under particular situations. For instance, women removing themselves when they're menstruating,

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Speaker 1: or a couple going off when they're having sex together.

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Speaker 1: So like me wearing jeans right now might be the

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Speaker 1: equivalent of me sneaking off behind a tree or over

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Speaker 1: a ridge in times of yore. Like it's just me

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Speaker 1: keeping the intimate bits intimate, which I no longer need

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Speaker 1: to do geographically, because Levi's yeah, it's like clothing is

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Speaker 1: a little privacy shed that you take with you everywhere

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Speaker 1: you go, and it's a shed you are not allowed

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Speaker 1: to leave. Try walking down the street without your clothes

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Speaker 1: on in New York. Actually you can't do it. That

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Speaker 1: buzz kill was provided by Philip Levine, Professor of History

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Speaker 1: at the University of Texas. I think some people would

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Speaker 1: be offended and suggest that you're obscene. Other people would

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Speaker 1: think that you're, you know, what we used to call

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Speaker 1: a sex maniac, whatever on earth that means. Others would

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Speaker 1: think that perhaps you were psychologically unbalanced. Some would think

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Speaker 1: that you were making a political statement, because we do

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Speaker 1: know that nakedness has been used a lot as a

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Speaker 1: form of political resistance in many different cultures. Clothes may

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Speaker 1: have started with warmth and privacy, but they certainly didn't

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Speaker 1: end there. Clothing has become a crucial part of culture.

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Speaker 1: It announces social affiliations and economic status, and class and ethnicity,

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Speaker 1: and over the course of human history it's become almost

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Speaker 1: like a wearable flag sidebar. We have an episode about

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Speaker 1: dress and dress codes. Philippa herself specializes in colonial history,

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Speaker 1: when British and other European powers were traveling far beyond

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Speaker 1: their own shores, encountering varied customs across the planet, misunderstanding

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Speaker 1: much of what they saw and citing those differences to

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Speaker 1: rationalized programs of world domination. There is this notion that

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Speaker 1: bodies of color, black bodies in particular, are somehow naturally naked,

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Speaker 1: and that this makes those people inferior to civilized white

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Speaker 1: people who know to wear clothes. This is a narrative

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Speaker 1: over and over again in colonial texts that one of

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Speaker 1: the reasons we need to civilize these people is because

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Speaker 1: they don't understand that they need to wear clothes and

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Speaker 1: be modest, and they need to learn shame. We see

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Speaker 1: it with the missionaries in the eighteenth century when they

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Speaker 1: first get to places like the Pacific Islands. We see

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Speaker 1: it in Africa, we see it all over the world.

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Speaker 1: Philippin notes that while clothing traditions vary hugely across the world,

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Speaker 1: not every culture ties up their notions of modesty and

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Speaker 1: shame with the naked body. But many colonialists depicted bear

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Speaker 1: skin and some sort of moral failing evidence of an

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Speaker 1: animal nature ignorance. Charities organized fundraisers to clothe the natives

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Speaker 1: to fulfill a moral imperative, But a prominent naturalist named

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Speaker 1: Thomas Henry Huxley was eager to document the naked bodies

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Speaker 1: of people around the world, and a letter written by

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Speaker 1: Huxley was actually what inspired Philippa herself to embark on

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Speaker 1: a career studying nakedness. So in eighteen sixty nine. He

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Speaker 1: writes a letter to the man who runs the British

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Speaker 1: Empire and he says, and these are his words, not mine.

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Speaker 1: He says, please, could you arrange to have photographs of

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Speaker 1: naked natives sent to me for scientific research purposes? Well,

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Speaker 1: where i am reading this letter and my jaw drops,

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Speaker 1: I'm thinking eighteen sixty nine, height of the Victorian period.

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Speaker 1: And here he is having the goal to ask this,

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Speaker 1: you know, grand politician, to send him pictures of you know,

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Speaker 1: men and women without their kit on. Granville writes back,

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Speaker 1: and he says, sure, no problem, I'll be right on it.

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Speaker 1: And indeed he sends to what they call a circular,

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Speaker 1: which is basically a letter that goes to every single

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Speaker 1: colonial governor, saying, Professor Huxley needs pictures of your natives

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Speaker 1: without their clothes on, Please send eighteens sixty nine. This, dude,

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Speaker 1: rights send nudes to the whole world. You got it.

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Speaker 1: Huxley wanted the people of the empire to strip naked

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Speaker 1: for photos so he could classify them the way a

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Speaker 1: collector pins butterflies to a board. He was interested in

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Speaker 1: figuring out how humans evolved, but he was also working

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Speaker 1: on sorting people into a hierarchy of races. A lot

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Speaker 1: of people took similar photos, missionaries, anthropologists, even game hunters.

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Speaker 1: It got me thinking about how even as a child

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Speaker 1: growing up in Britain myself, we had had school textbooks

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Speaker 1: that talked about the naked native and what an incredibly

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Speaker 1: familiar troope this was to me, and that trope has

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Speaker 1: been pervasive. Our sense of propriety and shame can be

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Speaker 1: leveraged for power, social and political. Naked people's historically weren't

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Speaker 1: considered deserving of the same respect and more regard as

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Speaker 1: clothed ones. The most sensational and complicated and heart sinking

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Speaker 1: story that Philippa told me took place in an Australian

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Speaker 1: mission school called Rnabella. The Mission and Annabella is a

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Speaker 1: really interesting example of how messy this stuff becomes. I

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Speaker 1: think it failed, but it tried, I think, to understand

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Speaker 1: and to respect what it understood as the local indigenous customs.

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Speaker 1: So we're talking about in what was known as the

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Speaker 1: out back. You know, we're in the desert here. It's

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Speaker 1: the nineteen for days in rural Australia, one of the

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Speaker 1: last regions on the continent to be settled by white people,

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Speaker 1: and By the standards of the time, this mission school

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Speaker 1: was considered progressive, promoting the culture and the language of

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Speaker 1: the indigenous Aboriginal people. Some of the students there were

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Speaker 1: children of two Aboriginal parents full blood would have been

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Speaker 1: the term used then, and some were halfway. The kids

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Speaker 1: who are full bloot are being encouraged by Annabella to

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Speaker 1: embrace what they see as their indigenous culture, and as

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Speaker 1: a result, they're not allowed to wear clothes because they

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Speaker 1: understood as a naked and primitive people's the kids who

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Speaker 1: had white fathering, those kids were not allowed to go naked.

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Speaker 1: I don't think I am ever going to forget that

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Speaker 1: these kids strand in on either side of adults imaginary lines.

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Speaker 1: The mandate for modesty is pretty universal, even if modesty

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Speaker 1: looks different in practice around the world. Some places don't

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Speaker 1: like bare breasts or legs, or shoulders or hair. But

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Speaker 1: whatever the rules are, most cultures are passionate about compliance.

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Speaker 1: Some taboos on nakedness, however, don't seem to vary all

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Speaker 1: that much across culture. Philippa says there is one adult

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Speaker 1: body part that almost every society covers up. The biggest

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Speaker 1: taboo over time, without question, is the penis. There's always

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Speaker 1: a big hoho harp when we start to have any

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Speaker 1: hint that we might see a penis. Somehow women's bodies

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Speaker 1: are okay to commercialize, to use, to sell things, to

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Speaker 1: make pretty pictures from meaning you know, poshed off. It

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Speaker 1: goes on gallery walls. Fast forward. A woman sits for

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Speaker 1: her portrait with her eyes closed and her arms crossed

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Speaker 1: over her bare breasts in front of a studio backdrop.

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Speaker 1: The photos crapped at the waist, but you can see

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Speaker 1: like the dark band of leggings at the bottom of

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Speaker 1: the frame. It's a kind of image you might see

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Speaker 1: a lot of while scrolling on social media. But when

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Speaker 1: this particular image was posted to Instagram, the platform removed

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Speaker 1: it for violating community guidelines. The woman in the photo

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Speaker 1: was Naomie Nicholas Williams, a black plus sized model. She

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Speaker 1: the photographer, and a bunch of other people pointed out

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Speaker 1: that slenderer white models could post exactly these sorts of

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Speaker 1: images all day long and not get censored. Her fans

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Speaker 1: rallied on her behalf online. The hashtag I want to

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Speaker 1: see Naomi started gaining traction, and a lot of other

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Speaker 1: users who tried posting the image met with similar takedown notices.

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Speaker 1: Naomi wrote a public letter to the CEO of Instagram

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Speaker 1: that said, and I quote Instagram reproduces the same racial

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Speaker 1: biases that society does. Seeing fat black bodies is too

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Speaker 1: much or unpalatable, And actually Instagram ended up changing its

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Speaker 1: nudity policy, acknowledging that Naomi's photos shouldn't have been taken down.

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Speaker 1: One of the people who signed Naomi's letter was Shar Elise.

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Speaker 1: For those people right now who are just like meeting

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Speaker 1: you for the first time by voice only, can you

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Speaker 1: describe what you look like? Yeah, I'm skin I have

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Speaker 1: a shaved head. Um, I'm probably around the size well,

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Speaker 1: I'm around the size u K sixteen to eight team

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Speaker 1: and I'm like five ft five, I've got loads of tattoos,

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Speaker 1: quite a few pacings, and yeah that's me. Shar is

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Speaker 1: a content creator but sometimes model, and the founder of

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Speaker 1: an online platform called Girls Will Be Boys, which aims

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Speaker 1: to explore gender through personal stories. She says that a

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Speaker 1: naked body is seen through a completely different lens. If

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Speaker 1: that body is black, it goes back years and years

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Speaker 1: and years, Like, there's so many examples of our bodies

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Speaker 1: being seen as either like freak shows. It's not just

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Speaker 1: a body that functions that are human being lives in.

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Speaker 1: It's it's something else. It has to be something else.

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Speaker 1: It's disgusting and it's really unfair. And a lot of

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Speaker 1: forums only on naked bodies are considered artful and others

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Speaker 1: are just fundamentally indecent and shouldn't be seen at all.

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Speaker 1: We don't see women with saggy boobs, we don't see

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Speaker 1: women with bellies. They have the phrase of like all

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Speaker 1: shapes and sizes, We welcome all shapes and sizes, but

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Speaker 1: you don't. Okay, maybe different size, but it's always the

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Speaker 1: same shape. So Shar teamed up with Naomi in another

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Speaker 1: motel to pose for a photo project the protested online

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Speaker 1: censorship us three models of painted head to toe in

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Speaker 1: pink glitter all over. There literally was not expect of

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Speaker 1: us that wasn't painted, and we were kind of stood

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Speaker 1: on these podiums and it was just us in like

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Speaker 1: our natural forms, and there were close ups of like

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Speaker 1: certain body parts like back rolls, and it was just

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Speaker 1: basically a middle finger up to censorship and society and

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Speaker 1: making out that our bodies are something that they're not

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Speaker 1: and that basically, our bodies are exactly what we say

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Speaker 1: they are, and that we can be shown as all

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Speaker 1: as well as our slimmer or white counterparts. So it

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Speaker 1: was just like a celebration of us and our bodies.

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Speaker 1: The human menagerie is stocked with all sorts of bodies,

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Speaker 1: and we tend to see just a small sampling of

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Speaker 1: them represented in our media, and so we take note

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Speaker 1: when the spotlight hit someone not usually asked to center stage.

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Speaker 1: Remember that guy Mark who took off all his clothes

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Speaker 1: on that show Naked Attraction. Mark is a handsome dude,

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Speaker 1: but if you were to google clips from his appearance

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Speaker 1: on the show and I have, the first thing you're

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Speaker 1: likely to notice about his anatomy is, actually, well, what's

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Speaker 1: let him telling? I actually had my whole color on

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Speaker 1: removed and had a colostomy backfitted in order to collect

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Speaker 1: the waste that would ordinarily go through your color on

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Speaker 1: and out of your butt. And so yeah, that the

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Speaker 1: changes you the way you look because you have this

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Speaker 1: sort of medical appliance on your stomach. So at the

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Speaker 1: time I was pretty embarrassed about it. I was more reluctant,

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Speaker 1: friend want to actually see me. Mark has Crone's disease,

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Speaker 1: and after a surgery, he felt ugly hyper aware of

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Speaker 1: the bag affixed to the skin above his right hip.

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Speaker 1: He healed up and got back on his feet, but

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Speaker 1: dating posed a particular challenge. I was meeting new women

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Speaker 1: and had to get naked at some point, and therefore

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Speaker 1: had to really address this u shyness that I had.

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Speaker 1: So when his friends encouraged him to go on the program,

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Speaker 1: he went for it and the audience loved it, and

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Speaker 1: afterwards the Twitter account for Colostomy UK congratulated Mark on

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Speaker 1: his confidence and all the work he'd done raising awareness.

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Speaker 1: They also posted a shot from the episode featuring a

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Speaker 1: modesty saving eggplant emoji, but his colostomy bag in full view.

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Speaker 1: I think being naked on national TV was probably the

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Speaker 1: biggest challenge that I've done so far. I think kind

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Speaker 1: of stepping it up like that and gradually revealing it

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Speaker 1: to more and more people has helped me personally as

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Speaker 1: well as obviously, you know, the more people in the

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Speaker 1: general public that know about these things, the better. In

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Speaker 1: my opinion, getting naked can make a statement. It can

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Speaker 1: make us feel vulnerable or empowered or just chilly. But

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Speaker 1: when other people see you naked, it might change the

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Speaker 1: way they think about how you think. Okay, let's get

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Speaker 1: Kurt Gray in here already. He's based at the University

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Speaker 1: of North Carolina Chapel Hill as the director of the

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Speaker 1: Deepest Belief Slab, which let's be Frank is an amazing

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Speaker 1: name for a lab. Some years ago, a few of

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Speaker 1: his colleagues were having a debate how does seeing someone

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Speaker 1: undressed change the way you think about them? One team said,

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Speaker 1: we objectify naked bodies. When you observe somebody naked, they're

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Speaker 1: reduced to a mindless pile of meat. But the other

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Speaker 1: team said, you don't think less of them, you just

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Speaker 1: see them differently. Kurt decided to run a series of

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Speaker 1: trials to try to find out who is right. I

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Speaker 1: can tell you about the most interesting experiment, which involves

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Speaker 1: adult film stars if if you like ready, the easiest

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Speaker 1: experiment to run is just show people the same person

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Speaker 1: you know with their clothes on and close off. Same picture,

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Speaker 1: same setting, same lighting, same makeup. The only thing that

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Speaker 1: differed is nakedness. Happily, a photographer named Timothy Greenfield Sanders

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Speaker 1: had already published a book of portraits in which porn

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Speaker 1: stars were photographed both naked and clothed in exactly the

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Speaker 1: same poses. And we had a disclaimer that said warning,

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Speaker 1: you're gonna see You're gonna see pornography in this study.

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Speaker 1: And with that disclaimer, the study filled up in a

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Speaker 1: hot minute. So we asked a thousand people to judge

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Speaker 1: these adult film stars. These thousand participants were then given

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Speaker 1: a questionnaire to capture their impressions of the people in

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Speaker 1: the photographs. They were asked questions like, compared to the

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Speaker 1: average person, how much is this person capable of self control,

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Speaker 1: of planning a feeling pain, a feeling rage. And we

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Speaker 1: found that when you see someone will have their clothes on,

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Speaker 1: so that when they're naked, you see them as less

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Speaker 1: capable of thinking, but in fact more capable of feeling,

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Speaker 1: of feeling fear and pain and pleasure. Kurt's findings implied

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Speaker 1: sort of a zero sum proposition, like the more we

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Speaker 1: perceive people as thinking, the less we perceive them as

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Speaker 1: sensitive to feelings. Kurt conducted another experiment, and this time

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Speaker 1: he encouraged participants to administer safe but uncomfortable electric shocks

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Speaker 1: to someone in another room. Before doing so, however, they

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Speaker 1: were shown a picture of the guy who would be

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Speaker 1: receiving the shock, Shocky as it were. Some participants were

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Speaker 1: shown photos of Shocky negat above the waist. Other participants

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Speaker 1: were on a picture of him wearing a black hoodie.

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Speaker 1: And as you might be starting to suspect, Shaki was

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Speaker 1: a secret agent in this thing, actually a part of

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Speaker 1: Kurt's team. And so what we found there is that

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Speaker 1: people administered more shocks when people were closed than when

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Speaker 1: people were naked. Kurt figured that's because we perceived naked

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Speaker 1: people as more sensitive to pain, more vulnerable. It didn't

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Speaker 1: seem as though research participants were objectifying the naked people,

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Speaker 1: reducing them to nothing more than their physical bodies. They

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Speaker 1: still regarded them as individuals with mental lives. They still

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Speaker 1: had minds, but participants assumed the minds of naked people

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Speaker 1: were doing less intellectual work, and we're more involved with

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Speaker 1: sensation and emotion. But can we really extrapolate these findings

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Speaker 1: from the highly controlled laboratory environment to the outside world.

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Speaker 1: Kurt admits it's hard to be sure if data collected

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Speaker 1: from Harvard undergrads holds true for the rest of the

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Speaker 1: planet look in other societies. It is certainly seems that

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Speaker 1: perhaps the more powerful the more you're seeing as a thinker,

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Speaker 1: the more clothes that you have thought. But as the scientists,

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Speaker 1: how we say more park needs to be done. Kurt

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Speaker 1: understood these results to suggest that maybe seeing people differently

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Speaker 1: when they're naked isn't all bad. Maybe it helps us

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Speaker 1: register their vulnerability and prompts us to want to protect them. Also,

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Speaker 1: maybe it's just like true, maybe when we're naked we

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Speaker 1: do tend to focus more unfeeling than thinking. Right, we

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Speaker 1: wear clothes to protect ourselves so we don't feel as much.

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Speaker 1: And so I think it's true that that when we

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Speaker 1: are closed, we are more of a thinker, and we're

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Speaker 1: naked we're more of a dealer. I guess on the

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Speaker 1: occasions where I encounter someone who is observing me naked,

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Speaker 1: like I'm not planning an invasion of Prussia, like I

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Speaker 1: am more, I am more focused on the present moment,

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Speaker 1: experience and sensation, whether it's good or bad. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: although you know a little known fact Napoleon plan most

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Speaker 1: of its advance is totally naked. But that's not true.

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Speaker 1: I just made that up. God, I just I was

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Speaker 1: like this, flip the table over, Spike, Mike, you just well, listener,

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Speaker 1: our time together is almost up. And if I sound

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Speaker 1: a little different while delivering this final thought, it's because

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Speaker 1: I am now sitting completely naked on the floor of

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Speaker 1: a hotel closet, and I would describe the sensation as

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Speaker 1: mostly humbling, kind of hard to put down my own

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Speaker 1: standard issue insecurities and focus on the task at hand.

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Speaker 1: It also feels like I am maybe doing something low

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Speaker 1: key illegal, which is probably just a product of my

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Speaker 1: own looming fear that housekeeping is going to enter un

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Speaker 1: announced and discover me in a very difficult to explain

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Speaker 1: audio project. I once read an article in the Seattle

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Speaker 1: Times about just how seriously we dig modesty. There were

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Speaker 1: these disaster planners and they were really struggling to create

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Speaker 1: viable decontamination protocols because people who were caught up in

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Speaker 1: anthrax scares were so reluctant to undress, even to save

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Speaker 1: themselves from a potentially lethal biotoxin. Some people, and I quote,

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Speaker 1: would rather be dead than strip in public. But you

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Speaker 1: know who just does not care at all about modesty

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Speaker 1: or nakedness. Tiny kids. They suck at getting into clothes

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Speaker 1: and they suck at wearing them. We've got to persuade

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Speaker 1: every new arrival to the planet one by one to

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Speaker 1: get dressed and get on board. We teach them to

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Speaker 1: put on a hat. On the winner, we explain which

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Speaker 1: parts must be covered to merge into the flow of

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Speaker 1: social traffic and to protect their furthest little bodies from

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Speaker 1: the elements would get them shoes and shirts and maybe squirts,

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Speaker 1: and by the time they're all grown up, they'll probably

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Speaker 1: be uncomfortable without clothes, feeling overexposed and vulnerable. Among the

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Speaker 1: many peculiarities of us naked apes is our ambivalence about

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Speaker 1: our own nakedness. All right, radio friends, it is time

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Speaker 1: to shut this party down before housekeeping discovers the creeposoid

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Speaker 1: hiding naked in the closet and room at oh six.

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Speaker 1: Deeply Human is a BBC World service in American public media,

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Speaker 1: co production with I Heart Media and as hosted by Mesa.

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Speaker 1: Find me online at Tessa on Instagram and Dessa Darling

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Speaker 1: on Twitter. Question why do you care so much about

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Speaker 1: what people wear? You know? I can hear you thinking

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Speaker 1: I don't care so much of it. But I bet

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Speaker 1: you've got more skin in this game than you might imagine.

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Speaker 1: Next time on Deeply human. We're talking dress codes,