1 00:00:01,440 --> 00:00:08,959 Speaker 1: Body dogs. With Joseph's gotten more. Taking the long view 2 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:12,200 Speaker 1: of history, I think we can go back to maybe 3 00:00:12,680 --> 00:00:19,439 Speaker 1: the Sumerians. I think when we begin to consider written communication, 4 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:25,800 Speaker 1: that is, you know, putting down in symbols, how we're 5 00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:31,120 Speaker 1: going to relay information, maybe to one another or maybe 6 00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:35,480 Speaker 1: as leaving behind a record that we even ever existed. 7 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:40,680 Speaker 1: And that's a very analog way to look at it. 8 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:42,680 Speaker 1: And what I mean by that is that you know, 9 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:47,400 Speaker 1: our forebears, you know, press things into clay symbols. Then 10 00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:51,479 Speaker 1: there was the eventual stroke of a pen, and you 11 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:53,920 Speaker 1: have to find a place to put these things on 12 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:59,600 Speaker 1: some kind of medium, papyrus for instance. Of course, we're 13 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:02,920 Speaker 1: we're moving away from that now, we're no longer kind 14 00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:05,240 Speaker 1: of I don't know, handcuffed to it. But you know, 15 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:09,480 Speaker 1: there's part of the elegance of it that I miss 16 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:16,279 Speaker 1: of writing. There's something about that communication between your brain, 17 00:01:17,720 --> 00:01:20,959 Speaker 1: your eyes, and the tips of your fingers as you 18 00:01:21,080 --> 00:01:26,160 Speaker 1: form those letters. Today, I want to talk about something 19 00:01:26,240 --> 00:01:35,679 Speaker 1: that involves creating a communication, a written communication. It's very 20 00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:43,160 Speaker 1: very specific, a written communication that involves a husband and 21 00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:48,280 Speaker 1: a wife that was buried alive. I'm Joseph Scott, Morgan 22 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:53,040 Speaker 1: and this is body Backs, Dave. We're going to hop 23 00:01:53,040 --> 00:01:54,480 Speaker 1: into wayback machine real quick. 24 00:01:55,080 --> 00:01:57,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, we got to go back a little not in 25 00:01:57,120 --> 00:01:59,560 Speaker 2: the way way back machine, but not a little bit. 26 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:05,760 Speaker 2: Twenty seventeen May, David Pagniano and his wife Sandra are 27 00:02:05,760 --> 00:02:07,880 Speaker 2: in the middle of what has been described as a 28 00:02:08,040 --> 00:02:12,600 Speaker 2: nasty divorce. Now they are still living together. Sandra's thirty nine, 29 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:14,680 Speaker 2: David is sixty two, and they have two daughters that 30 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:16,760 Speaker 2: are aged eight and twelve at the time. This is 31 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:21,400 Speaker 2: all happening according to David Pagniano, while he and the 32 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:25,880 Speaker 2: girls were asleep, Sandra packed her stuff and left and 33 00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:30,640 Speaker 2: he David doesn't report her missing. He doesn't do anything, 34 00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:32,840 Speaker 2: just move on with his life. But one of Sandra's 35 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:36,480 Speaker 2: best friends is like, she wouldn't leave. She would not justly. 36 00:02:36,639 --> 00:02:39,720 Speaker 2: She was really involved in the girls' lives. She wouldn't 37 00:02:39,760 --> 00:02:42,160 Speaker 2: just leave. She was in the middle of a nasty divorce, 38 00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:45,360 Speaker 2: fighting for custody of the girls. She wouldn't just walk away. 39 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:48,160 Speaker 2: So her friend is the one that calls police to 40 00:02:49,040 --> 00:02:52,440 Speaker 2: Sandra Pagniano missing, and police show up to talk to 41 00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:55,360 Speaker 2: David find out what's going on, and he answers the 42 00:02:55,360 --> 00:02:58,360 Speaker 2: door and says, here, I have two handwritten notes by Sandra. 43 00:02:58,720 --> 00:03:01,080 Speaker 2: Here's when she wrote to the girl. Basically, the letter 44 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:03,760 Speaker 2: to the girls just says that she has to leave. 45 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:08,399 Speaker 2: The letter that Sandra supposedly wrote to David, she gives 46 00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:11,840 Speaker 2: him everything, custody, whatever they were fighting over. She just 47 00:03:11,880 --> 00:03:15,000 Speaker 2: walks away. Here, David, you take everything, including our daughters. 48 00:03:15,480 --> 00:03:18,400 Speaker 2: Now police look at this and go, yeah, this isn't 49 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:21,320 Speaker 2: making any sense. And according to the lead investigator in 50 00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:25,639 Speaker 2: the case, Sergeant Jack Maddox, he said, the handwriting analysis 51 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:28,799 Speaker 2: showed the notes were in fact written by David Pagniano, 52 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:32,320 Speaker 2: so he becomes a person of interest and that allows 53 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:35,680 Speaker 2: them to start getting information. One of the biggest things 54 00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:40,160 Speaker 2: investigators were able to get cell phone records of David Pagniano. 55 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:44,200 Speaker 2: So that's where we are in May of twenty seventeen, 56 00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:49,720 Speaker 2: and it comes down to handwritten notes that David Pagnello 57 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:54,600 Speaker 2: claims his wife has written for them and police saying no, 58 00:03:54,680 --> 00:03:55,200 Speaker 2: she didn't. 59 00:03:55,720 --> 00:03:56,240 Speaker 3: You did. 60 00:03:56,760 --> 00:04:00,480 Speaker 1: You have to think about who are you in gauge 61 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:04,440 Speaker 1: with in your life, that there's going to be the 62 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:09,120 Speaker 1: highest probability that they're going to have something in for you. 63 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:14,320 Speaker 1: They're going to have a motive to make you disappear 64 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:17,760 Speaker 1: so that they can in fact retain all the remains 65 00:04:17,800 --> 00:04:20,680 Speaker 1: of you, you know, after you're gone, those things that 66 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:24,000 Speaker 1: maybe they believe that they're owed. And sometimes I think 67 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:27,320 Speaker 1: that that extends out to your life as well. I 68 00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:29,520 Speaker 1: think we see that played out. You know, people view 69 00:04:29,560 --> 00:04:34,159 Speaker 1: other people as possessions. Many times, they dehumanize them to 70 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:38,919 Speaker 1: that point, and you know, you stack all of that 71 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:41,320 Speaker 1: together and then you look at the pain of the divorce. 72 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:43,800 Speaker 1: I actually heard somebody say at one point time, and 73 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:48,799 Speaker 1: you know, I've been through a divorce many many years ago, 74 00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:52,840 Speaker 1: and I heard I think it was a therapist at 75 00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:57,800 Speaker 1: one point time, said that a divorce many times is 76 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:01,359 Speaker 1: even more painful than experience in a death in your family, 77 00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:05,440 Speaker 1: because with death, that's kind of like a solid marker 78 00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:09,440 Speaker 1: in tom and you have those memories and everything, but 79 00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:12,479 Speaker 1: you continue to live. And then you know, in the 80 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:15,159 Speaker 1: wake of a divorce, particularly if there's kids involved in 81 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:18,360 Speaker 1: that sort of thing, it's a pain that has relived 82 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:21,479 Speaker 1: over and over and over again, and so it really 83 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:24,640 Speaker 1: takes a toll. I don't know, if you've if you've 84 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:27,920 Speaker 1: got two people that have attempted to create a life 85 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:31,840 Speaker 1: there's a lot to lose their day there, there's there's 86 00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:36,120 Speaker 1: a lot to be gained. I think, uh, maybe through 87 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:39,240 Speaker 1: the eyes of somebody that doesn't necessarily have your best 88 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:40,080 Speaker 1: interest at heart. 89 00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:40,800 Speaker 3: You know this. 90 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:44,359 Speaker 2: I know it too, having gone through divorce. At certain 91 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:46,480 Speaker 2: points in time, you're willing to fight for everything. You're 92 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:48,800 Speaker 2: really just I'm not giving up anything because I'm so 93 00:05:48,839 --> 00:05:51,720 Speaker 2: frustrated and mad over the whole thing. But then after 94 00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:53,560 Speaker 2: a while you get worn down. You're like, I don't care, 95 00:05:53,839 --> 00:05:57,719 Speaker 2: I just don't know. I just want to Yeah, we're Yeah, 96 00:05:57,760 --> 00:05:59,920 Speaker 2: they were not at this point. And it's the two lot. 97 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:02,280 Speaker 2: That's why you know you mentioned the letters. There are 98 00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:06,920 Speaker 2: the two letters left behind. They are the two biggest 99 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:13,520 Speaker 2: clues that I'm reminded of John ben A. Ramsey and 100 00:06:13,640 --> 00:06:14,800 Speaker 2: the ransom note. 101 00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:15,720 Speaker 1: Yep. 102 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:20,680 Speaker 2: I never trust a note that is written at the house. No, 103 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:24,279 Speaker 2: I never trust that note because if somebody is going 104 00:06:24,320 --> 00:06:26,479 Speaker 2: to do harm, you know they're going to bring the 105 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:28,680 Speaker 2: note with them. They're not going to sit down and 106 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:30,479 Speaker 2: write it out where they're trying to escape the house. 107 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:33,760 Speaker 2: In this particular case, do you really think of mother, 108 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:37,760 Speaker 2: a mother of two girls who has been fighting for 109 00:06:37,800 --> 00:06:40,640 Speaker 2: their very survival as a family unit, Mom and the 110 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:42,840 Speaker 2: two girls that she's going to leave two notes that 111 00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:44,320 Speaker 2: leave everything to her husband. 112 00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:46,120 Speaker 3: No, Now, what. 113 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:50,400 Speaker 1: Are the odds of that that a mama would walk away? 114 00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:53,839 Speaker 1: And you know, I would be more inclined to say, 115 00:06:55,440 --> 00:06:58,240 Speaker 1: I could see you pulling up stakes and running out 116 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:01,520 Speaker 1: the door with everything that you could pack into the 117 00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:04,920 Speaker 1: back of your car and not say a word. I'm 118 00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:08,640 Speaker 1: buying that before I'm buying taking the time to write 119 00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:14,040 Speaker 1: something out like this, because you're having If you're doing that, 120 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:16,520 Speaker 1: you're having to think about this to the point where 121 00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:19,920 Speaker 1: she's pushed to the point where she's having to think 122 00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:23,960 Speaker 1: about abandoning her babies, and she's admitting to it. And 123 00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:27,880 Speaker 1: I'm going to leave you everything. But you know, that's 124 00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:32,400 Speaker 1: the thing about it, though, Dave, one never really knows 125 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:38,720 Speaker 1: what's hiding just beneath the surface, or who is hiding 126 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 1: just beneath the surface. I can look at my mother's 127 00:07:55,720 --> 00:08:03,000 Speaker 1: handwriting and my mother in law's handwriting, and they're both 128 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:07,160 Speaker 1: kind of in the same age range, and it's amazing 129 00:08:07,440 --> 00:08:11,200 Speaker 1: that people that grew up in that time period, you know, 130 00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:15,360 Speaker 1: the born in I don't know, roughly the forties, and 131 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:19,000 Speaker 1: they came up through the fifties and particularly as it 132 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:21,720 Speaker 1: applies to females back during that time. I've seen this 133 00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:25,600 Speaker 1: happen before as well. With handwriting. It looks the same, 134 00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:30,560 Speaker 1: there's something about it, there's an elegance to it. I 135 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:33,400 Speaker 1: think that people took their time when they were writing. 136 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:37,360 Speaker 1: But my mother and my mother in law's handwriting, they 137 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:41,320 Speaker 1: it's almost I have to show you an image of it. Sometimes, 138 00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:46,079 Speaker 1: Dave the notes they look almost identical. You know, to 139 00:08:47,559 --> 00:08:53,360 Speaker 1: a passerby that would see these two women's writings examples 140 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:57,040 Speaker 1: of them, or exemplars as they're referred to in handwriting analysis, 141 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:01,160 Speaker 1: just a casual person would say, wow, that's yeah, that's 142 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:05,400 Speaker 1: written by the same person. But an investigation stay, there's 143 00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:08,160 Speaker 1: something that there's a group of people that we turn 144 00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:14,160 Speaker 1: to when we have these questions about handwriting, and they're 145 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:19,560 Speaker 1: able to just really pick out that fine little detail 146 00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:22,360 Speaker 1: that you and I might not normally think about, that 147 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:24,280 Speaker 1: that is a specific identifier. 148 00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:27,880 Speaker 2: It's so funny because you mentioned that, and having covered 149 00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:30,880 Speaker 2: a number of stories and had and having to bring 150 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:34,480 Speaker 2: in handwriting experts to explain how they came to the 151 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:37,200 Speaker 2: conclusions that they did, it seems to me, Joe that 152 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:40,120 Speaker 2: if I were to study the way you write, and 153 00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:41,960 Speaker 2: I'm sitting there with an example. 154 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:45,400 Speaker 1: Order to have mercy on your soul because mine is 155 00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:47,320 Speaker 1: horrible to but then it's horrible. 156 00:09:47,840 --> 00:09:49,439 Speaker 2: But you would think I can copy this, and you 157 00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:52,680 Speaker 2: would notice each letter has a specific thing. And but 158 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:56,600 Speaker 2: what handwriting experts do is they they can tell where 159 00:09:56,760 --> 00:09:59,760 Speaker 2: you actually put the weight on the utensil, you're right, 160 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:03,080 Speaker 2: whether it's pender pencil. They can tell whether or not 161 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:05,760 Speaker 2: you were lifting up or pushing down. They can tell 162 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:08,160 Speaker 2: by the size of the loop or the shape of 163 00:10:08,160 --> 00:10:11,120 Speaker 2: the loop or the curl at the end. And it's 164 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:13,560 Speaker 2: interesting how they break it down because you and I 165 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:15,840 Speaker 2: will see something and go, it's the same thing, or 166 00:10:15,880 --> 00:10:18,240 Speaker 2: it's very very similar, and they actually break it down 167 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:21,199 Speaker 2: and go, actually, no, let me show you why. And 168 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:24,679 Speaker 2: once they do, you can't unsee it. You're like, oh 169 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:26,439 Speaker 2: my gosh, it's like. 170 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:28,960 Speaker 1: Looking at one of those three D pictures. Yeah, where 171 00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:32,120 Speaker 1: you try to make sense out of it, but you know, 172 00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:33,760 Speaker 1: one of the things. And let me just kind of 173 00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:37,720 Speaker 1: give you give everybody a real brief primer here, because 174 00:10:37,760 --> 00:10:42,120 Speaker 1: it's kind of fascinating when in this particular case where 175 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:48,480 Speaker 1: We've got two examples or exemplars of these writings, one 176 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:54,120 Speaker 1: dealing with the kids, one dealing with the husband. 177 00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:56,280 Speaker 2: And actually addressed to them. One was addressed to the 178 00:10:56,280 --> 00:10:58,120 Speaker 2: girls and the other was addressed to the husband. 179 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:02,800 Speaker 1: You're looking at these things, and so if there's two 180 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:06,880 Speaker 1: terms that people will apply to folks that examine handwriting, 181 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:15,680 Speaker 1: first is FDE, which is a forensic document examiner, Okay. 182 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:25,760 Speaker 1: And there's another term that's used that's forensic handwriting analyst. No, 183 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:29,439 Speaker 1: they're really not. They've got they've got a couple of 184 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:31,760 Speaker 1: different certifications you can go through, and it's one of 185 00:11:31,840 --> 00:11:34,839 Speaker 1: these jobs in forensics where you have to do an 186 00:11:34,920 --> 00:11:39,240 Speaker 1: extensive apprenticeship. You know, people think apprenticeships don't exist anymore 187 00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:44,520 Speaker 1: in forensics. They do handwriting, ballistics, fingerprint. You don't just 188 00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:46,880 Speaker 1: go out and say I'm going to be a handwriting now. 189 00:11:46,920 --> 00:11:49,199 Speaker 1: It doesn't we I don't care. If you've got a 190 00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:52,040 Speaker 1: master's degree in forensic science and you want to do handwriting, 191 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:54,080 Speaker 1: you're going to have to sit at the feet of 192 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:56,800 Speaker 1: a master. I had a friend, a very dear friend 193 00:11:56,800 --> 00:12:00,360 Speaker 1: of mine, that she did an apprenticeship David last three 194 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:04,080 Speaker 1: years before they cut her loose it is, Yeah, you 195 00:12:04,160 --> 00:12:06,320 Speaker 1: have to be committed to it. So some of the 196 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:11,840 Speaker 1: things they're looking for are going to be speed, which 197 00:12:12,240 --> 00:12:15,880 Speaker 1: if you're writing in cursive, is the speed at which 198 00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:19,839 Speaker 1: you write a document or make out a document, and 199 00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:23,200 Speaker 1: that goes to kind of the smoothness that you're writing with. 200 00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:27,160 Speaker 1: They're going to look at pressure, like how much pressure. 201 00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:30,720 Speaker 1: I mean, just think about it. If you're trying to 202 00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:35,480 Speaker 1: copy something and you're looking over at a document and 203 00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:38,199 Speaker 1: then looking down at the document you're creating, and you're 204 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:41,640 Speaker 1: trying to duplicate that in some way, you're being very careful, 205 00:12:41,679 --> 00:12:44,600 Speaker 1: so that means you're applying more pressure. And then they're 206 00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:49,320 Speaker 1: going to have ending locations and beginning locations, and you 207 00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:51,920 Speaker 1: don't think about this, Like if you sign your name, 208 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:55,560 Speaker 1: you just do it. You don't really think about how 209 00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:59,320 Speaker 1: it's done. So if somebody tries to replicate your signature, 210 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:07,439 Speaker 1: it's going to seem very forced, purposed, and it's not 211 00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:10,320 Speaker 1: going to have that smoothness to it that you know, 212 00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:13,319 Speaker 1: like if you're just signing a check, not that many 213 00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:17,080 Speaker 1: people sign checks anymore, or you know you're you're handing 214 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:19,480 Speaker 1: over something on an official document where you sign it 215 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:24,080 Speaker 1: those are all some of the considerations they have. And 216 00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:30,600 Speaker 1: here's another interesting thing positionality. And here's people might remember this. 217 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:35,000 Speaker 1: You ever walk into a bank lobby and they've got 218 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:37,440 Speaker 1: those big standing desk, you know, with the pins that 219 00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:39,480 Speaker 1: are attached to the chains, and you've got to fill 220 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:42,240 Speaker 1: out a deposit slip and all of that. Can you 221 00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:45,360 Speaker 1: realize how many bank robbery notes have been written and 222 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:48,679 Speaker 1: written at those kind of tables and so and they 223 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:52,959 Speaker 1: over the years a tremendous number of them. So the 224 00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:57,040 Speaker 1: position that you because you write, your writing will slightly 225 00:13:57,080 --> 00:14:03,320 Speaker 1: appear different as a from standing as opposed to sitting, 226 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:09,840 Speaker 1: because you're supported. And there's this muscular, skeletal, neurological connection 227 00:14:09,960 --> 00:14:13,040 Speaker 1: between all of this. It's so detailed in what these 228 00:14:13,040 --> 00:14:19,280 Speaker 1: people do. But if somebody tries to mask writing in 229 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:22,640 Speaker 1: some way, and there's a couple ways you can do it, 230 00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:25,520 Speaker 1: it's going to stand out to an FDE. They're going 231 00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:29,080 Speaker 1: to know that this is if they get an original 232 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:34,160 Speaker 1: exemplar of this person, this questioned person that it's supposed 233 00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:39,240 Speaker 1: to be in this case, the wife, it's not going 234 00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:44,800 Speaker 1: to appear the same. Let's say if her husband tried 235 00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:47,520 Speaker 1: to mask her writing it's going to look completely different. 236 00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:50,520 Speaker 2: Dave. Your wife is missing and you have two letters 237 00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:53,680 Speaker 2: that give you everything the kids, and yeah, come on, 238 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:58,160 Speaker 2: that's where this investigation began. Now, Joe, as an investigator, 239 00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:01,400 Speaker 2: you got the two letters, how quickly does it take 240 00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:03,520 Speaker 2: for you to determine that these were not written by 241 00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:04,560 Speaker 2: Sandra Pogniano. 242 00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:09,840 Speaker 1: Well, for me personally as an investigator, I couldn't. I 243 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:13,680 Speaker 1: mean I could look at it, even even though I 244 00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:17,680 Speaker 1: have had a class in question documents during the course 245 00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:23,400 Speaker 1: of graduate work in forensics. I'm not the person I'm 246 00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:25,200 Speaker 1: going to turn to. I'm going to go to the 247 00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:29,000 Speaker 1: State crime Lab and now I might I can eyeball 248 00:15:29,040 --> 00:15:31,360 Speaker 1: it and say, you know, there's something that looks screwy 249 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:34,440 Speaker 1: about this, but I can't necessarily put my finger on it. 250 00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 1: And that's why we've got you know, in forensics, we've 251 00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:40,360 Speaker 1: got so many disciplines within it because there's somebody you 252 00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:44,920 Speaker 1: can turn to. Here's a problem. Now that kind of 253 00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:51,240 Speaker 1: exists in question document examination, though, Dave, is that there's 254 00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:56,640 Speaker 1: not as many question document examiners or forensic document examiners 255 00:15:56,640 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 1: as there once was because what's happening to handwriting well 256 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:02,080 Speaker 1: has kind of fallen out of favor. You know, people 257 00:16:03,640 --> 00:16:08,479 Speaker 1: people rely on typing things. Now they do digital communications. 258 00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:10,360 Speaker 1: So you have to be able to track down somebody 259 00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:14,120 Speaker 1: that is qualified in order to do an assessment for 260 00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:17,200 Speaker 1: you that's going to turn it around in a timely fashion. 261 00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:21,080 Speaker 1: Let's don't forget you've got a missing woman. You want 262 00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:23,560 Speaker 1: to know what happened to her, So you have to 263 00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:26,640 Speaker 1: do this with all speed if you think that there's 264 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:31,000 Speaker 1: something weird going on at this point. This case bubbled 265 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:34,320 Speaker 1: up to the top all the way back in twenty seventeen. Dave, 266 00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:37,520 Speaker 1: you know this is We've gone a good deal down 267 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:42,040 Speaker 1: the road here time wise, before you know, anything really 268 00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:45,360 Speaker 1: turns up about her. I think we're kind of past 269 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:48,680 Speaker 1: the critical mass. So you're there as an investigator left 270 00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:51,520 Speaker 1: to pick up the pieces. And if somebody has been 271 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:55,320 Speaker 1: this deceptive along the way, you have to look for 272 00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:58,000 Speaker 1: any kind of landmarks along the way or land mines 273 00:16:58,120 --> 00:17:03,920 Speaker 1: rather that could essentially damn the case, you know, before 274 00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:17,320 Speaker 1: you ever really get down the road in it. I 275 00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:22,359 Speaker 1: have to confess something here. I love Arizona. I've spent 276 00:17:22,600 --> 00:17:24,760 Speaker 1: quite a bit of time there. But if you've never 277 00:17:24,840 --> 00:17:27,399 Speaker 1: been there, particularly if you come from a greener area 278 00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:31,119 Speaker 1: of the color. And you plot down in Arizona if 279 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:33,000 Speaker 1: you're not used to it, and you look around and 280 00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:37,240 Speaker 1: you're like, what planet am I on? Because it's so 281 00:17:38,119 --> 00:17:41,040 Speaker 1: it is such the opposite of anything that we're used to, 282 00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:45,119 Speaker 1: particularly down here in the south, where everything is green. 283 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:49,080 Speaker 1: It's very lush. You get there and everything until you 284 00:17:49,119 --> 00:17:51,399 Speaker 1: get used to the environment, kind of everything looks the 285 00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:54,240 Speaker 1: same until you begin to pick out details, and that's 286 00:17:54,359 --> 00:17:56,560 Speaker 1: and then there's a real beauty in it. Some of 287 00:17:56,600 --> 00:17:59,400 Speaker 1: the most beautiful sunsets and sunrises I've ever seen in 288 00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:05,080 Speaker 1: my life. We're in Arizona. It's striking. But they were 289 00:18:05,160 --> 00:18:09,840 Speaker 1: able to narrow this this area down and once you know, 290 00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:14,160 Speaker 1: once you can kind of pinpoint it with the digital evidence. 291 00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:18,240 Speaker 1: If you you know that she's missing, you want to 292 00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:21,480 Speaker 1: go out there with armed with a tool, and in 293 00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:25,200 Speaker 1: this particular case, they show up with canines with cadaver 294 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:29,360 Speaker 1: dogs essentially to begin to search for her. You know, 295 00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:32,000 Speaker 1: we know that she hasn't gone out there and built 296 00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:36,560 Speaker 1: a little cabin where she's living peacefully without her her 297 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:41,640 Speaker 1: husband and babies. There's a reason why he was out there. 298 00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:44,199 Speaker 1: Why would anybody, why would he have a need to 299 00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:48,719 Speaker 1: go out there to that specific location, approximating the time 300 00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:54,160 Speaker 1: at which she went. Just and by the way, he 301 00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:57,639 Speaker 1: he never gave any indication where she It's not like 302 00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:01,840 Speaker 1: he wanted to jump in and say, yeah, whiz, let 303 00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:04,840 Speaker 1: me help you find my wife. You know, we've talked 304 00:19:04,840 --> 00:19:09,280 Speaker 1: about this recently, Dave. I still recall you. You had 305 00:19:09,320 --> 00:19:13,360 Speaker 1: made this real insightful comment about it's never the people. 306 00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:16,520 Speaker 1: They're not going to roll up their sleeves and say, gee, whiz, 307 00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:19,080 Speaker 1: I really want to find my loved one. They hang 308 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:23,480 Speaker 1: in the background. And in this case, that's what happened. 309 00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:26,720 Speaker 2: But if reporter missing Joe, No, he didn't even report 310 00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:29,320 Speaker 2: some other of his children missing though they're in the 311 00:19:29,320 --> 00:19:31,800 Speaker 2: middle of a divorce, fighting over everything, and he's just 312 00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:37,399 Speaker 2: gonna not report. Hey, even Joe, we all have watched TV. 313 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:40,880 Speaker 2: We know who the suspicion's going to fall on. I'm 314 00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:44,080 Speaker 2: guessing David. David Pagnowo. I had never seen television before, 315 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:46,359 Speaker 2: or any movies, or read any books or seen anything 316 00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:48,479 Speaker 2: dealing with crime of any story, because that's what he's 317 00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:50,400 Speaker 2: acting like. But let me ask you this, Joe, because 318 00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:54,320 Speaker 2: I'm very curious as to when because you're around investigators, 319 00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:57,200 Speaker 2: gone just forensic stuff. You've been around police and detectives 320 00:19:57,240 --> 00:20:01,200 Speaker 2: and all that for a long time. But when when 321 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:06,320 Speaker 2: they start looking at something like this, do they immediately 322 00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:10,400 Speaker 2: start sniffing around the husband here? 323 00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:11,919 Speaker 3: The I mean do they immediate? 324 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:13,119 Speaker 2: I mean, I know they got to look at everything, 325 00:20:13,119 --> 00:20:15,959 Speaker 2: but do they really start analyzing everything he says, everything 326 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:17,720 Speaker 2: he does and everything he doesn't do. 327 00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:23,280 Speaker 1: Yes, And it's not just the husband, it's the wife, 328 00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:24,480 Speaker 1: if it's if. 329 00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:27,640 Speaker 3: It's you know, whoever's not missing. 330 00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:30,720 Speaker 1: Whoever's not missing, and you have because listen, I mean, 331 00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:34,719 Speaker 1: my wife's gonna know where I am, right, I mean, 332 00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:37,119 Speaker 1: she she is. I mean we're together twenty four to seven, 333 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:40,920 Speaker 1: which I enjoy. I love being with my wife. She's said, 334 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:42,040 Speaker 1: the light of my life. 335 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:45,760 Speaker 2: But if y'all are missingly sweet, y'all are like a dad. 336 00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:49,440 Speaker 2: Do you like drinking grape kool aid with extra sugar? 337 00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:52,280 Speaker 2: Drinking it using a red vine? That's all. 338 00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:54,360 Speaker 1: I'm one of these. I'm one of these guys that 339 00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:57,080 Speaker 1: when you've had it really bad, you discover how great 340 00:20:57,119 --> 00:21:00,720 Speaker 1: it is finally, and I'm like, it's your term. I'm 341 00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:04,159 Speaker 1: like a hair in a biscuit. Ain't turned us, but 342 00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:08,399 Speaker 1: Kimmy's going to know where I am at any particular time, 343 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:12,400 Speaker 1: and if I've disappeared, yeah, you bet the local constabulary 344 00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:15,240 Speaker 1: are going to press her very very hard. And many 345 00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:22,000 Speaker 1: times families recoil at that because they're put off by 346 00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:25,320 Speaker 1: the heavy handed nature of the police. Well there's a 347 00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:29,359 Speaker 1: reason they're heavy handed. They're trying to extract information from 348 00:21:29,359 --> 00:21:32,720 Speaker 1: that central point of contact. And when you see somebody 349 00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:39,439 Speaker 1: like this fellow who is so disengaged relative to, like 350 00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:42,359 Speaker 1: you said, his wife and she's not his ex wife, 351 00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:48,240 Speaker 1: his wife and the mother of his babies, they they're 352 00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:51,240 Speaker 1: gonna want answers because he's going to have the most knowledge. 353 00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:54,439 Speaker 1: I mean, he's you know, he's the default position in 354 00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:57,120 Speaker 1: all of this, and so yeah, they're going to look 355 00:21:57,119 --> 00:21:59,040 Speaker 1: at him hard, and they're also going to look at 356 00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:03,160 Speaker 1: those his digital footprint nowadays. In the past, it wasn't 357 00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:06,479 Speaker 1: like that, but now it's it's a grand tool to have. 358 00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:10,119 Speaker 1: It's terrifying, but it's a grand tool to have. And 359 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:12,359 Speaker 1: then you know, you're going to couple that with the 360 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:15,080 Speaker 1: use of cadaver dogs. You know, if we were having 361 00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:17,600 Speaker 1: this conversation thirty years ago, people would think we were 362 00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:20,840 Speaker 1: out of our minds. But now this is the norm. 363 00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:23,639 Speaker 1: This is the norm. This is how cases are handled. 364 00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:26,480 Speaker 2: Hey, Joe, when you read cadaver dogs to an area 365 00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:30,920 Speaker 2: a remote area, can they because it is a remote 366 00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:33,600 Speaker 2: area and you are dealing with I'm going to it 367 00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:38,840 Speaker 2: the human human decomposing human smell different than decomposing cattle. 368 00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:43,120 Speaker 1: To dogs, they do. Yeah, I can't say that to humans. 369 00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:44,560 Speaker 3: Right they know the difference. 370 00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:46,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, they're going to know the difference in they're trained. 371 00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:48,520 Speaker 1: And as a matter of fact, I have experience not 372 00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:55,720 Speaker 1: training the dogs, but providing them with samples to actually 373 00:22:56,359 --> 00:22:59,240 Speaker 1: use in order to train the dogs. And that meant 374 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:03,840 Speaker 1: would have handlers that would come to the morgue, particularly 375 00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:08,320 Speaker 1: with bodies that were decomposing, and there's fluid that drips 376 00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:10,800 Speaker 1: from those bodies that's contained in the bag or on 377 00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:13,920 Speaker 1: the tray, and they would take a cloth and absorb 378 00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:17,159 Speaker 1: some of that, and then they would go out and 379 00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:20,280 Speaker 1: place samples of that. It was a fascinating process, and 380 00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:22,399 Speaker 1: they would play samples of that all over the place 381 00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:26,240 Speaker 1: so that these animals would begin in their own ol 382 00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:29,400 Speaker 1: factory spectrum is the way I like to refer to it. 383 00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:33,320 Speaker 1: That they have that is like, I don't know, a 384 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:37,479 Speaker 1: thousand times greater than what we possess as humans. They 385 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:40,320 Speaker 1: would fine tune that and begin to go out and 386 00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:44,000 Speaker 1: begin to sniff. And that's one of the methods that 387 00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:46,520 Speaker 1: they use in order to, you know, to train these dogs. 388 00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:48,800 Speaker 1: And they're very honed in. You know, you have some 389 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:53,159 Speaker 1: dogs that have multiple hats, if you permit me to 390 00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:57,600 Speaker 1: say that, multiple utility. But you know, cadaver dogs are 391 00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:01,359 Speaker 1: very very specific. You know, they're looking for something in decay. 392 00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:04,679 Speaker 1: I'm not saying that they would not perhaps hit on 393 00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:10,320 Speaker 1: a decomposing cow or a deer or another dog when 394 00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:12,800 Speaker 1: they're looking for a human, but they're kind of zoned 395 00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:17,359 Speaker 1: in on that human smell and that human decomposition smell, 396 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:23,240 Speaker 1: and we can't we can't quantify that as human scientifically, 397 00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:27,600 Speaker 1: but they're so sensitive to it. Dogs are they can 398 00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:29,800 Speaker 1: fine tune those dogs so that they can pick up 399 00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:32,080 Speaker 1: on it. I don't think that we fully understand the 400 00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:33,120 Speaker 1: science behind what they did. 401 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:34,960 Speaker 2: So if you get out of the general vicinity with 402 00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:38,240 Speaker 2: a canine that is trained that cadaver dog, and you're 403 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:40,920 Speaker 2: just out in the general vicinity, they're going to get 404 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:42,159 Speaker 2: a whip and start hunting in on it. 405 00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:44,440 Speaker 1: I think that they will. And the way a search 406 00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:47,880 Speaker 1: pattern works like this is that let's just okay, let's 407 00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:50,520 Speaker 1: use the example of the cell tower. A cell tower 408 00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:53,560 Speaker 1: covers a huge area, but if you can triangulate that 409 00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:57,159 Speaker 1: cell tower, it's going to give you like where you 410 00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:01,000 Speaker 1: have three separate cell towers where that is pinging at 411 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:06,119 Speaker 1: a central location. You find that central location. All right, 412 00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:10,800 Speaker 1: this is very oversimplified. I know that anybody that's into 413 00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:13,879 Speaker 1: cyber investigation will say, yea god man, you know, tighten 414 00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:16,639 Speaker 1: it down a little bit. But very broadly speaking. 415 00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:17,879 Speaker 3: You're using the number one pencil. 416 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:23,880 Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, there you go, great analogy. And so what 417 00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:26,560 Speaker 1: they will do is find that central point and they 418 00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:29,719 Speaker 1: will begin to do almost a spiral search where they 419 00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:33,200 Speaker 1: start off at the most distal location from that central 420 00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:36,720 Speaker 1: area and then tighten that spiral as they're going around 421 00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:40,600 Speaker 1: and around and around and around to get to that 422 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:44,159 Speaker 1: central hub and somewhere around there. You know that what 423 00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:47,160 Speaker 1: the cops are saying here, what they're thinking is somewhere 424 00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:50,040 Speaker 1: in this area that he had no business being in, 425 00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:53,840 Speaker 1: we might have remains. And as you begin to take 426 00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:57,040 Speaker 1: that dog and kind of work that swirl around and 427 00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:01,680 Speaker 1: around that spiral, that spiral thing. You began to narrow 428 00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:03,439 Speaker 1: it down as sooner or later, you know, you're going 429 00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:06,280 Speaker 1: to get that dog to alert, And wouldn't it I 430 00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:08,760 Speaker 1: would have to think that as a handler that would 431 00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:11,120 Speaker 1: have to be almost you would have a visceral response 432 00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:14,120 Speaker 1: to that. You know, It's like, how exciting that would be? 433 00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:17,120 Speaker 1: As gruesome as this is, but how exciting that would be, 434 00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:19,920 Speaker 1: you know, to have this tool that you're going to 435 00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:22,240 Speaker 1: be able to provide answers to to the police and 436 00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:25,000 Speaker 1: to families and all these sorts of things. But David, 437 00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:28,040 Speaker 1: I got to tell you, man, when they began to, 438 00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:32,920 Speaker 1: you know, work this dog in this area, they hit, 439 00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:38,520 Speaker 1: and boy, they hit big and the rest the rest 440 00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:40,200 Speaker 1: of the story. 441 00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:42,359 Speaker 3: You know, I got it. 442 00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:43,760 Speaker 1: It's it's absolutely horrible. 443 00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:48,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, So we we know they find the body. 444 00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:53,439 Speaker 2: They find Sandra Pogniano, and by finding her body in 445 00:26:53,520 --> 00:27:00,400 Speaker 2: a in what they describe as a shallow hand dug grave, yep, 446 00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:05,360 Speaker 2: they find that she has been bound and gagged or bound? 447 00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:08,160 Speaker 3: Yeah? Is that the right term when somebody's had tape 448 00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:09,160 Speaker 3: placed over their mouth? 449 00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:14,040 Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, Well you can place tape over a mouth 450 00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:21,000 Speaker 1: and that's not necessarily gagging. Gagging generally involves some type 451 00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:26,320 Speaker 1: of obstruction that will muffle, muffle them to the point 452 00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:28,959 Speaker 1: where they're not going to be able to cry out. 453 00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:31,720 Speaker 1: If somebody just merely has duct tape over their face, 454 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:38,080 Speaker 1: that can be worked out, right. Yeah, Saliva sweat certainly, 455 00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:40,920 Speaker 1: because you think about if you're in the throes of this, 456 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:45,760 Speaker 1: you're perspiring, you're terrified, and that's one of the things 457 00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:49,840 Speaker 1: we do. We're terrified that's going to turn loose if 458 00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:52,000 Speaker 1: you have a gag in somebody's mouth, and it can 459 00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:54,160 Speaker 1: be a piece of cloth, it can be any number 460 00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:54,639 Speaker 1: of things. 461 00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:58,160 Speaker 2: Well, she was at the mouth and head and police 462 00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:00,440 Speaker 2: said as so she couldn't make any noise. They're saying 463 00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:02,080 Speaker 2: she was kidnapped out of her own house in the 464 00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:03,679 Speaker 2: middle of the night with her twelve year old night 465 00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:08,320 Speaker 2: year old to sleep in the house. I believe, yeah, 466 00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:10,520 Speaker 2: And that's that's what would happen. You. 467 00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:16,240 Speaker 1: Let's just say that he crept in into the space 468 00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:22,560 Speaker 1: where she's sleeping and he's got her attention, put her, 469 00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:25,080 Speaker 1: put his hand over her mouth, stick something in her 470 00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:28,640 Speaker 1: mouth to keep her muffled so that the kids don't hear. 471 00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:31,920 Speaker 1: Maybe he's threatening her life. At that point, Tom, you say, word, 472 00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:35,159 Speaker 1: I'm going to kill you, you know, I'll kill the kids, 473 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:37,639 Speaker 1: I'll do whatever I have to do. And she's going 474 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:40,160 Speaker 1: to submit at that point in time. And now we 475 00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:44,360 Speaker 1: can only suspect this. But how else are you going 476 00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:47,120 Speaker 1: to in the presence of her children in that house? 477 00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:49,160 Speaker 1: How she how are you going to get her to comply? 478 00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:55,240 Speaker 1: But yeah, he literally kidnapped her from this home and 479 00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:58,880 Speaker 1: removed her from there. But Dave, this guy is absent 480 00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:07,040 Speaker 1: this this case, Dave, this is one of the single 481 00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:12,920 Speaker 1: most inhumane things that we've covered in a while because 482 00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:22,080 Speaker 1: he's absolutely positively without mercy for any level of compassion. 483 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:27,240 Speaker 1: Because Dave, he buried this woman alive. 484 00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:30,400 Speaker 2: Man, how can they tell that, Joe, she was bound 485 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:34,440 Speaker 2: about her head and her arms and legs, I'm assuming 486 00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:37,640 Speaker 2: all these things. How could they tell that she was 487 00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:38,920 Speaker 2: buried alive? 488 00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:42,680 Speaker 1: Well, because this is going to be an asphixial death 489 00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:47,400 Speaker 1: and that's really the only way that you could describe 490 00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:48,240 Speaker 1: it now. 491 00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:51,120 Speaker 3: And side that grave, can they find that out? 492 00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:53,520 Speaker 1: Oh? Yeah, yeah they can. And one of the ways 493 00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:55,760 Speaker 1: that you're going to do it, And this is really horrific. 494 00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:03,680 Speaker 1: You're gonna find dirt beneath her fingernails. And I'm thinking 495 00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:06,640 Speaker 1: right now, JJ Vaalo because one of the things that 496 00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:09,560 Speaker 1: came out with JJ was that you know, he was buried. 497 00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:14,480 Speaker 1: We don't know if he was alive when he was buried, 498 00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:16,960 Speaker 1: but there was apparently an effort on his part because 499 00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:19,040 Speaker 1: there were scratch marks on one side of his neck 500 00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:21,920 Speaker 1: in order to get that tape off of his face. 501 00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:28,880 Speaker 1: I'm wondering if that's what we're looking at here. First off, 502 00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:30,960 Speaker 1: let's go back to what you mentioned a minute ago, 503 00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:32,840 Speaker 1: because I was kind of interested in the statement that 504 00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:35,880 Speaker 1: you made that this was a hand dug grave, a 505 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:38,960 Speaker 1: hand dug grave, when they're saying that you're getting into 506 00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:43,080 Speaker 1: tool mark evidence. Now, let's just say you take a 507 00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:46,080 Speaker 1: shovel out there, and it's a standard spade spade style 508 00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:49,440 Speaker 1: shovel that's kind of curved as opposed to kind of 509 00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:53,680 Speaker 1: a block shovel that's got a leading edge like a blade. 510 00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:58,520 Speaker 1: Let's just say you use a spade style shovel where 511 00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:01,720 Speaker 1: when you strike a dirt wall with this and this 512 00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:06,760 Speaker 1: dirt out there to say that it is sand, Yes, 513 00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:09,320 Speaker 1: it is sand, but it is so tightly packed it 514 00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:11,600 Speaker 1: takes a lot of effort in the desert to dig 515 00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:15,640 Speaker 1: in because this stuff is super baked. We covered a 516 00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:18,000 Speaker 1: case out of San Bernardino the other day, Dave, and 517 00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:19,920 Speaker 1: that's on the edge of the desert. You're aware of 518 00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:23,720 Speaker 1: what that dirt is like. It's like digging into concrete. 519 00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:28,160 Speaker 1: So every time that spade is stuck into the ground, 520 00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:31,960 Speaker 1: it's going to leave a very specific mark along the 521 00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:35,920 Speaker 1: edges of that that would marry up to the shape 522 00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:39,600 Speaker 1: of a shovel that's pushed in there. So that's going 523 00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:42,080 Speaker 1: to vary from somebody coming in with a back hoe, 524 00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:45,239 Speaker 1: for instance, and using that big scoop to kind of 525 00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:48,680 Speaker 1: grind out the soil and pull it away. That's why 526 00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:52,320 Speaker 1: they know that this is hand dug. It's not literally 527 00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:56,400 Speaker 1: that he took his hands and dug the grave, but 528 00:31:57,080 --> 00:32:01,080 Speaker 1: I'm suspecting that there's significant tool marks have been left behind, 529 00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:04,520 Speaker 1: and that's evidenced in this case. But it's shallow, Dave. 530 00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:07,080 Speaker 1: It's kind of shallow. There's only so far that you 531 00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:11,560 Speaker 1: could go. And you've got this woman that is bound. 532 00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:17,520 Speaker 1: Her breathing is greatly compromised because of this gag tape 533 00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:21,720 Speaker 1: over her her mouth, and there's her if her hands 534 00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:29,320 Speaker 1: are bound. You know, when we breathe, Breathing doesn't involve 535 00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:34,920 Speaker 1: the nose and the mouth. Many times we can be 536 00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:39,320 Speaker 1: compromised in our ability to breathe. If we're bound, you 537 00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:41,720 Speaker 1: don't think about how everything is connected and how you 538 00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:44,440 Speaker 1: move around, and you can get comfortable and you can 539 00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:46,719 Speaker 1: take a deep breath and that sort of thing. So 540 00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:50,080 Speaker 1: she's even further compromised by being bound. Now she finally 541 00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:53,080 Speaker 1: gets loose, she still can't get up out of the dirt, 542 00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:55,840 Speaker 1: dependent upon how tightly packed it is. We don't know 543 00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:59,720 Speaker 1: if maybe he stood over the grave after he patted 544 00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:03,080 Speaker 1: the thing down with her in it. The medical examiner 545 00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:08,560 Speaker 1: actually believes Dave that she could have lived for as 546 00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:12,040 Speaker 1: long as five minutes after being buried in this space. 547 00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:14,080 Speaker 2: And this is not kidt in the bet of her house. 548 00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:16,880 Speaker 2: She's had her face and head, her mouth is gagged, 549 00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:19,720 Speaker 2: she's been bound by her hands, be she's struggling to 550 00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:21,600 Speaker 2: try to get out, moving her body any of which 551 00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:26,920 Speaker 2: way she can, struggling for and five minutes of horror, 552 00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:29,040 Speaker 2: trying to get out to get back to her children, 553 00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:31,560 Speaker 2: because you know what she knows, on top of everything else, 554 00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:35,000 Speaker 2: she knows that her eight year old and her twelve 555 00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:39,040 Speaker 2: year old girls are at home alone. There's nobody there 556 00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:43,160 Speaker 2: because her husband has her out in the desert. Yep, 557 00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:46,040 Speaker 2: there's nobody at that house. Or something happens. That's a mother. 558 00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:48,080 Speaker 2: That's what she's thinking. She's not thinking I'm going to 559 00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:49,640 Speaker 2: die here. She's thinking, I got to get back to 560 00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:50,280 Speaker 2: my kids. 561 00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:52,680 Speaker 1: I got to get back. I got too because if 562 00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:55,960 Speaker 1: this is, if this is happening to me, I really 563 00:33:56,240 --> 00:33:59,800 Speaker 1: want folks to hear this. If this is happening to 564 00:33:59,880 --> 00:34:07,600 Speaker 1: me me and I'm being put through this, what other 565 00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:15,040 Speaker 1: horror torture lies ahead for my babies, these young girls 566 00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:20,279 Speaker 1: that I've raised to almost well, one on the verge 567 00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:22,960 Speaker 1: of becoming a teenager, another one eight. I mean, I 568 00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:25,680 Speaker 1: remember what it was like to be eight, and how 569 00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:29,280 Speaker 1: dependent I was upon my mother being around, my grandmother 570 00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:33,680 Speaker 1: being around, and that thought that that's even more torturous, 571 00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:36,520 Speaker 1: isn't it, Dave, You know when you begin to consider that, 572 00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:40,120 Speaker 1: and so you couple that, we know that she's just 573 00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:43,920 Speaker 1: struck by anxiety. At this point in time. She's shallow breathing, 574 00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:48,040 Speaker 1: she's sweating profusely, she's struggling to get free, and she can't. 575 00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:54,279 Speaker 1: And the problem with this kind of compression slash positional 576 00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:57,719 Speaker 1: asphyxia that she would have encountered is that the more 577 00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:01,960 Speaker 1: she struggles the worst the worst it gets, because now 578 00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:07,960 Speaker 1: you're in a deprived state relative to oxygen, and we 579 00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:13,960 Speaker 1: actually refer to this as oxygen deprivation. And this is 580 00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:17,040 Speaker 1: what I'm very curious about, is that if she was 581 00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:21,479 Speaker 1: able to work work out this gag in some way 582 00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:25,479 Speaker 1: or or get past the tape that is covering her face, Dave, 583 00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:29,480 Speaker 1: did she inhalate any of the dirt? And that's one 584 00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:31,719 Speaker 1: of the things that we would see in the airway. 585 00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:34,040 Speaker 1: It's like a fire, you know, if we have somebody 586 00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:36,960 Speaker 1: that is alive during the course of a fire, they 587 00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:41,960 Speaker 1: inhalate soot. Right, same thing applies with dirt if it 588 00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:45,160 Speaker 1: gets into your mouth and you're trying to uptake, and 589 00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:47,920 Speaker 1: this dirt is loose, remember, because he's just dug. He's 590 00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:49,920 Speaker 1: hand dug the grave, all right. Now he might have 591 00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:52,800 Speaker 1: packed down the top, but this loose dirt is around 592 00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:57,040 Speaker 1: her and it's literally coming into her nose and let's 593 00:35:57,040 --> 00:35:59,440 Speaker 1: just say her mouth. Look at it this way, her 594 00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:06,680 Speaker 1: mouth is is bound are covered? Is her nose also covered? 595 00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:11,480 Speaker 1: Because if her nose is not covered, Guess what when 596 00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:14,960 Speaker 1: you inhalate that, it's going into your airway, And the 597 00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:18,080 Speaker 1: more that goes into your airway, the more compromised you 598 00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:23,960 Speaker 1: are and your ability to uptake oxygen. It is, hands down, 599 00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:28,480 Speaker 1: I think, one of the most tortuous ways that any 600 00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:36,439 Speaker 1: one human being could die. You think about why are 601 00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:45,279 Speaker 1: you incapable of extending mercy? But in his case, I 602 00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:49,000 Speaker 1: think he may have had David Pagnano may have had, 603 00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:54,640 Speaker 1: for a moment an epiphany because he realized there was 604 00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:58,560 Speaker 1: no way out of this. He wound up pleading guilty 605 00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:06,000 Speaker 1: to the murder of his wife, and in addition to that, kidnapping, forgery, 606 00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:14,960 Speaker 1: and fraud. He's now in the Arizona State Penitentiary for 607 00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:22,000 Speaker 1: the rest of his life. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and 608 00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:24,320 Speaker 1: this is Bodybacks.