1 00:00:00,760 --> 00:00:04,440 Speaker 1: It's a clear fall day in America's heartland. You sit 2 00:00:04,480 --> 00:00:08,039 Speaker 1: in a chair outside your trailer contently looking out over 3 00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:11,799 Speaker 1: your farm. It's cool and the sun is setting behind 4 00:00:11,800 --> 00:00:16,599 Speaker 1: the dense forest that surrounds your property. Everything seems just right. 5 00:00:18,239 --> 00:00:22,239 Speaker 1: That evening, your stepdaughter in Net stops by with her boyfriend. 6 00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:25,960 Speaker 1: You and your wife were pretty upset when Annette told 7 00:00:25,960 --> 00:00:28,600 Speaker 1: you she was moving away from the farm and moving 8 00:00:28,640 --> 00:00:32,199 Speaker 1: in with her boyfriend, Todd and his parents downtown. You 9 00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:34,040 Speaker 1: don't want a Nette to be caught up with someone 10 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:36,760 Speaker 1: from town. All those townies seem to care about his 11 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:40,680 Speaker 1: church and gossip. You want nothing to do with them, 12 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:42,839 Speaker 1: and they don't seem to want anything to do with you. 13 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:47,960 Speaker 1: But in Nette's already eighteen, she's an adult. You can't 14 00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:51,760 Speaker 1: really control her. You try to act supportive, so you 15 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:54,240 Speaker 1: nod to Todd and help a Nette pack the last 16 00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:57,480 Speaker 1: of her things into his trunk. You give her a 17 00:00:57,560 --> 00:01:00,480 Speaker 1: hug before she gets into the car with him, and 18 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:03,520 Speaker 1: you watch as Todd pulls away to drive them back 19 00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:08,280 Speaker 1: into town, and you're feeling a little helpless. The next 20 00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:11,040 Speaker 1: day is pretty routine for you. You pick up loads 21 00:01:11,080 --> 00:01:14,440 Speaker 1: of hay to bring to your barn. It's strenuous work. 22 00:01:14,880 --> 00:01:18,679 Speaker 1: You work hard all day, you're exhausted, and you go 23 00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:24,080 Speaker 1: to bed early. The next morning, the phone rings. It's 24 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:29,039 Speaker 1: Tod's mother. She says, are nett in Todd with you? 25 00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:29,160 Speaker 2: No? 26 00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:33,520 Speaker 1: You say, I thought they were with you. Tod's mother 27 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:36,280 Speaker 1: becomes frantic. She says, the kids went for a walk 28 00:01:36,319 --> 00:01:40,360 Speaker 1: around four pm yesterday and they never came home last night. 29 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:44,600 Speaker 1: But there's something else going on there. There's a hint 30 00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:47,800 Speaker 1: of something, a tone of accusation in her voice, like 31 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:51,960 Speaker 1: she's somehow blaming you. You hang up and call the 32 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:56,160 Speaker 1: police immediately. You wait all day, hoping to hear something, 33 00:01:56,400 --> 00:02:00,960 Speaker 1: but there's nothing. You're just waiting and waiting and the 34 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:03,960 Speaker 1: police finally get back to you in the evening. They 35 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:09,360 Speaker 1: can't find them. One sleepless night bleeds into another, and 36 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:14,080 Speaker 1: then another and another. This is one terrible nightmare for 37 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:18,080 Speaker 1: you and your wife. Ten days go on like this. 38 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:22,840 Speaker 1: All you and your wife can do is sit and worry. 39 00:02:22,919 --> 00:02:26,560 Speaker 1: You're not eating, you're not sleeping, you don't know what 40 00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:30,920 Speaker 1: to do with yourselves. It's raining outside. When you finally 41 00:02:30,919 --> 00:02:33,960 Speaker 1: get a call from an officer, and you can hear 42 00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:36,079 Speaker 1: it in the tone of their voice. This is not 43 00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:40,480 Speaker 1: going to be good. The news I have for you 44 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:43,919 Speaker 1: is not going to be easy to hear. He says, 45 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:49,520 Speaker 1: we found Todd in a net in the Hawking River. 46 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:54,640 Speaker 1: Oh my god, you can't stand. Your body is trembling. 47 00:02:55,240 --> 00:02:58,240 Speaker 1: You try to restate what the officer just said. You're 48 00:02:58,320 --> 00:03:00,880 Speaker 1: trying to wrap your head around what this means. You 49 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:06,760 Speaker 1: found their bodies, their dead bodies. The officer says, they 50 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:12,400 Speaker 1: didn't find their whole bodies, just their torsos. Their bodies 51 00:03:12,440 --> 00:03:23,040 Speaker 1: have been dismembered. You're completely sick. Officers spend two days 52 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:26,400 Speaker 1: searching the cornfields between the railroad tracks and the river 53 00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:29,919 Speaker 1: where the torsos were found. They find Todd in a 54 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:34,240 Speaker 1: net's limbs and heads buried in shallow graves. You and 55 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:37,800 Speaker 1: your wife drive into town to the police station, and 56 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:40,560 Speaker 1: you're taken aback by the attitudes of these cops. When 57 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:44,760 Speaker 1: you're separated from your wife and pulled into an interrogation room, 58 00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:48,680 Speaker 1: officers tell you to take off your boots, your shirt, 59 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:53,160 Speaker 1: your pants. You sit shivering in your underwear for eight 60 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:56,480 Speaker 1: and a half hours, and then a detective comes in. 61 00:03:57,400 --> 00:04:00,840 Speaker 1: He sits down right next to you, puts his finger 62 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:04,800 Speaker 1: in your face and says you did this. We know 63 00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:08,880 Speaker 1: you did this. We found your bootprint down by the riverbank. 64 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:12,400 Speaker 1: Once we match that boot to the print that was 65 00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:15,520 Speaker 1: left at that riverbank, it'll prove you were there. You 66 00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:20,120 Speaker 1: killed your stepdaughter, and then you, sick bastard, you cut 67 00:04:20,160 --> 00:04:25,080 Speaker 1: off her arms, her legs, her head. You better confess, 68 00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:27,320 Speaker 1: because I'll tell you right now, it's going to get 69 00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:31,920 Speaker 1: worse for you if you don't. You say, over and 70 00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:35,520 Speaker 1: over and over again, what in the world are you 71 00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:39,880 Speaker 1: talking about. I didn't murder a net I just came 72 00:04:39,920 --> 00:04:42,800 Speaker 1: here to help you find out who did. What is 73 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:46,320 Speaker 1: this all about. They don't have enough evidence to charge 74 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:48,600 Speaker 1: you for the murder of a net and Todd, so 75 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:52,120 Speaker 1: they have to let you go. They impound your car 76 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:55,440 Speaker 1: so it can be searched for evidence. It's dark and 77 00:04:55,560 --> 00:04:58,279 Speaker 1: cold when they drive you home. They let you and 78 00:04:58,320 --> 00:05:01,080 Speaker 1: your wife out of the car and you're still naked 79 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:04,719 Speaker 1: except for your underwear. You walk barefoot to your trailer. 80 00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:08,040 Speaker 1: Your toes are totally dumb by the time you get 81 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:13,760 Speaker 1: to the door. Downtown, rumors start to spread. People are 82 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:17,080 Speaker 1: saying this murder must have been some kind of cult ritual, 83 00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:20,360 Speaker 1: that it must have been you who did it? The quiet, 84 00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:24,480 Speaker 1: stern stepfather who never says much, never goes to church, 85 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:27,520 Speaker 1: keeps his family hidden away. Who knows what goes on 86 00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:31,200 Speaker 1: at that farm. They didn't like you before, but now 87 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:34,520 Speaker 1: they're straight a hostile. They cross the street to get 88 00:05:34,520 --> 00:05:37,919 Speaker 1: away from you when they see you coming. It takes 89 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:40,680 Speaker 1: them a year to build the case against you. Are 90 00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:45,080 Speaker 1: they even looking at other suspects. The whispering of your 91 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:48,440 Speaker 1: name around town grows to a fever pitch. You can 92 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:57,920 Speaker 1: hear their accusations ring in your ears. Murderer, molester. You're 93 00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:02,400 Speaker 1: eventually arrested in charge with the butchering murder of your 94 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:06,760 Speaker 1: stepdaughter and net and her boyfriend Todd. When you finally 95 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:09,960 Speaker 1: go to court, you do something very out of the ordinary. 96 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:14,599 Speaker 1: You waive the right to a jury trial. Finding twelve 97 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:19,000 Speaker 1: impartial people in Logan, Ohio really not going to happen. 98 00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:24,479 Speaker 1: The newspapers, everyone around town, they all think you're guilty. 99 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:28,120 Speaker 1: Everyone just wants to feel safe again. They won't be 100 00:06:28,279 --> 00:06:33,040 Speaker 1: satisfied until someone is convicted and they are sure that 101 00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:37,040 Speaker 1: person is you. Instead of a jury, you put your 102 00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:40,039 Speaker 1: fate in the hands of a three judge panel. A 103 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:43,640 Speaker 1: jury might not see it, but three judges they have to. 104 00:06:44,080 --> 00:06:46,560 Speaker 1: It's their job to apply the facts to the law 105 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:50,880 Speaker 1: without any outside influence from the court of public opinion. 106 00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:55,200 Speaker 1: Your lawyer calls to the stand and FBI analyst who 107 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:58,120 Speaker 1: says the plaster mold of what the prosecution claims is 108 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:03,039 Speaker 1: your bootprint at the riverbank is quote unquote unsuitable. The 109 00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:07,039 Speaker 1: analyst says it lacks sufficient detail for meaningful comparison, and 110 00:07:07,080 --> 00:07:09,360 Speaker 1: that it looks more like the footprint of someone who 111 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:13,200 Speaker 1: is walking barefoot. There is no way to claim your 112 00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:18,640 Speaker 1: boots match that print, so you're optimistic. But then the 113 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:23,040 Speaker 1: prosecution calls an anthropology professor to the stand. She says 114 00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:27,800 Speaker 1: she studied footwear impressions of countless samples. Her delivery is 115 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:33,760 Speaker 1: slow and deliberate and really credible. She says, quote, no 116 00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:37,560 Speaker 1: person's footprints are the same as another. They're as unique 117 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:41,040 Speaker 1: as a fingerprint. I've analyzed the wear patterns on the 118 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 1: inside of the defendant's boot, and I can say with certainty, 119 00:07:45,160 --> 00:07:49,680 Speaker 1: scientific certainty, that the footprint found by the riverbank was 120 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:56,280 Speaker 1: made by the defendant. This sounds unbelievable, but you see 121 00:07:56,320 --> 00:07:59,400 Speaker 1: the judges are nodding along. There's no wather buying. This 122 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:04,760 Speaker 1: is there After a very short deliberation, the judges apparently 123 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:08,800 Speaker 1: believed the testimony of the prosecution's anthropologist who put you 124 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:12,040 Speaker 1: right at the scene of the crime. They convict you, 125 00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:18,880 Speaker 1: and you are sentenced to death. The story you just 126 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:22,200 Speaker 1: heard is based on the murders of Annette Cooper Johnston 127 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:23,480 Speaker 1: and Todd Schultz. 128 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:24,720 Speaker 2: Dale. 129 00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:29,520 Speaker 1: Johnston was wrongfully convicted and sentenced to death in nineteen 130 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:35,160 Speaker 1: eighty four. He was exonerated in nineteen ninety, over twenty 131 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:40,000 Speaker 1: years after the murder. The true killer finally confessed, but 132 00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:42,720 Speaker 1: even then the people in the town of Logan still 133 00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:45,199 Speaker 1: chose to believe that Dale was guilty in one way 134 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:49,560 Speaker 1: or another. On today's episode, we're going to examine how 135 00:08:49,559 --> 00:08:53,520 Speaker 1: a supposed footprint put an innocent man on death row. 136 00:08:57,360 --> 00:09:00,880 Speaker 1: I'm Josh Dubin civil rights and criminal defense attorney, an 137 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:04,800 Speaker 1: innocent ambassador to the Innocence Project in New York. Today, 138 00:09:05,040 --> 00:09:10,040 Speaker 1: on Wrongful Conviction Junk Science, we examine footwear comparison evidence. 139 00:09:10,679 --> 00:09:14,800 Speaker 1: Even when done correctly, impression analysis of evidence like shoe 140 00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:19,960 Speaker 1: prints and tire tracks is purely subjective. Many experts recognize 141 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:24,600 Speaker 1: its limitations, but one so called expert in particular, pushed 142 00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:28,280 Speaker 1: the limits of this forensic discipline to produce horrific outcomes. 143 00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:32,280 Speaker 1: It turns out that Dale Johnson wasn't the only innocent 144 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:35,199 Speaker 1: person to be convicted of a crime based on faulty 145 00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:36,800 Speaker 1: footwear comparison evidence. 146 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:46,400 Speaker 3: The Pacers Foundation is a proud supporter of this episode 147 00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:49,800 Speaker 3: and of the Last Mile organization, which provides business and 148 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:54,719 Speaker 3: tech training to help incarcerated individuals successfully and permanently re 149 00:09:54,920 --> 00:09:58,640 Speaker 3: enter the workforce. The Pacers Foundation is committed to improving 150 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:03,400 Speaker 3: the lives of hoosiers across Indiana, supporting organizations dedicated primarily 151 00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:07,000 Speaker 3: to helping young people and students. For more information on 152 00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:10,040 Speaker 3: the work of the Pacers Foundation or the Last Mile Program, 153 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:14,200 Speaker 3: visit Pacersfoundation dot org or the Lastmile dot org. 154 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:24,760 Speaker 1: In nineteen seventy six, archaeologists made one of the most 155 00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:29,600 Speaker 1: exciting discoveries of our time. They found footprints dating back 156 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:34,600 Speaker 1: three point seven million years immortalized in the volcanic ash 157 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:41,000 Speaker 1: in Tanzania, and they looked like human prints. Archaeologists were thrilled. 158 00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:44,240 Speaker 1: They thought these footprints could shed some light on when 159 00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:49,559 Speaker 1: human beings began walking upright on two feet. Luis Robbins 160 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:53,120 Speaker 1: was an anthropology professor at the University of North Carolina 161 00:10:53,320 --> 00:10:57,679 Speaker 1: at Greensboro. She too was excited about these footprints and 162 00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:02,240 Speaker 1: wanted to know exactly who left them behind. Louise had 163 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:06,400 Speaker 1: been conducting her own studies in footprint analysis. She started 164 00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:10,920 Speaker 1: collecting footprints from people who were still alive. Five hundred 165 00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:13,680 Speaker 1: people put ink onto their feet and then stood on 166 00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:17,760 Speaker 1: a piece of paper. Based on those prints, Louise tried 167 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:23,079 Speaker 1: to find characteristics and feet that were specific to age, sex, stature, 168 00:11:23,120 --> 00:11:27,160 Speaker 1: and weight, using her own system of measurement. She would 169 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:30,760 Speaker 1: then compare those characteristics to the footprints found in the caves. 170 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:36,120 Speaker 1: Her conclusion, no two footprints are the same. In fact, 171 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:38,480 Speaker 1: she thought she could tell a great deal about a 172 00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:43,200 Speaker 1: person just by looking at their footprint. Her methods were 173 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:46,560 Speaker 1: never tested by her peers, nor were they confirmed by 174 00:11:46,640 --> 00:11:50,840 Speaker 1: other scientists, but Louise she thought she was onto something. 175 00:11:51,320 --> 00:11:54,880 Speaker 1: She claimed to do something no one else could identify 176 00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:59,920 Speaker 1: a person solely through their footprint, and so in nineteen seven, 177 00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:03,160 Speaker 1: when a team of scientists went to excavate the site 178 00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:08,440 Speaker 1: in Tanzania where the prehistoric footprints were found, Louise went too. 179 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:11,320 Speaker 1: When she saw the prince. She claimed that one of 180 00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:13,880 Speaker 1: them was left by a woman that was five and 181 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:17,800 Speaker 1: a half months pregnant. Now, other scientists on the expedition 182 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:20,800 Speaker 1: scratched their heads. It was hard enough to figure out 183 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:22,840 Speaker 1: if the prints that they were looking at were even 184 00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:25,720 Speaker 1: human at all. No one had ever claimed to know 185 00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:28,600 Speaker 1: the gender of the person that made the print, let 186 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:32,880 Speaker 1: alone of that person was carrying a child. Then Louise 187 00:12:32,920 --> 00:12:37,680 Speaker 1: took a dangerous leap. She positioned herself as a forensic expert, 188 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:42,240 Speaker 1: authoring a book on footprints. She didn't write this book 189 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:45,720 Speaker 1: with her scientific peers in mind, but she wrote it 190 00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:50,480 Speaker 1: for law enforcement and crime labs. Only five pages in 191 00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:54,280 Speaker 1: this book were dedicated to the analysis of actual shoe prints, 192 00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:59,400 Speaker 1: and yet, based on these five pages, Louise claimed that 193 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:02,800 Speaker 1: she was an expert in this area of forensic science. 194 00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:07,360 Speaker 1: Lawyers began to hire her as an expert witness. They 195 00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:09,760 Speaker 1: told judges that her work was on the cutting edge 196 00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:14,640 Speaker 1: of forensic science. Critics of her work called it Cinderella analysis. 197 00:13:14,679 --> 00:13:17,840 Speaker 1: After all, she usually made sure that the shoe fit 198 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:21,160 Speaker 1: when she matched the suspects foot to the shoe Prince 199 00:13:21,240 --> 00:13:25,240 Speaker 1: found at a crime scene. In the more than twenty 200 00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:29,520 Speaker 1: cases for which she testified. Twelve people, some of whom 201 00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:32,640 Speaker 1: who have since been proven to be innocent, were sent 202 00:13:32,679 --> 00:13:37,200 Speaker 1: to prison, including Dale Johnston, who was sentenced to death. 203 00:13:42,559 --> 00:13:46,000 Speaker 2: Dale Johnson and his wife Sarah at the time, came 204 00:13:46,080 --> 00:13:49,599 Speaker 2: down to Logan several days after the bodies had been discovered, 205 00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:54,800 Speaker 2: and they came to the Logan police department. They wanted 206 00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:58,080 Speaker 2: to be helpful to them, and Dale was immediately taken 207 00:13:58,280 --> 00:14:04,120 Speaker 2: up to an interrogation room. His boots, his pants, his 208 00:14:04,280 --> 00:14:07,400 Speaker 2: shirt were all confiscated. So he was sitting there in 209 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:10,240 Speaker 2: the chair in his underwear and they were bombarding him. 210 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:12,440 Speaker 2: You did it, didn't you? And we know you did it? 211 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:14,880 Speaker 2: Over and over and over again. He kept saying, no, 212 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:17,840 Speaker 2: I have nothing. I just came. I came into town 213 00:14:18,559 --> 00:14:19,440 Speaker 2: to try to help. 214 00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:24,280 Speaker 1: Here today is Bill Osinski, a journalist who covered the 215 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:27,680 Speaker 1: Dale Johnson case for years and wrote a book about 216 00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:31,600 Speaker 1: it called Guilty by Popular Demand. So Bill, tell us 217 00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:34,160 Speaker 1: a little bit about yourself and how you started covering 218 00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:34,720 Speaker 1: this case. 219 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:39,360 Speaker 2: For nearly forty years, I was a reporter. I worked 220 00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:43,280 Speaker 2: for eleven different newspapers around the country. I worked for 221 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:46,200 Speaker 2: the Akron Beacon Journal at that time, which is nearly 222 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:50,480 Speaker 2: two hundred miles away from Logan, Ohio, where the murders 223 00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:55,160 Speaker 2: took place. But in those days, the newspapers valued a 224 00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:57,960 Speaker 2: major story and would make that kind of an investment 225 00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:02,960 Speaker 2: in time and resources to over a widely publicized case 226 00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:03,400 Speaker 2: like that. 227 00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:07,600 Speaker 1: So, Bill, you actually went to Logan, Ohio to Coverdale's trial? 228 00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:08,680 Speaker 1: What was that like? 229 00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:13,600 Speaker 2: I drove into Logan, which is about thirty five miles 230 00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:17,360 Speaker 2: southeast of Columbus, Ohio, never been there before, and I 231 00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:20,440 Speaker 2: drove in on a January morning, and it was one 232 00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:23,840 Speaker 2: of the coldest days I can remember. The temperatures were 233 00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:28,360 Speaker 2: well below zero. And I went to the center of 234 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:31,720 Speaker 2: the little town and found the courthouse. And here, you know, 235 00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:35,080 Speaker 2: eight o'clock on a weekday morning, there was a line 236 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:39,560 Speaker 2: outside the courthouse. People were standing in that below zero 237 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:43,000 Speaker 2: cold waiting for a chance to get in to hear 238 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:48,440 Speaker 2: all this salacious details of this horrific murder of a 239 00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:54,080 Speaker 2: teenage couple who were found dismembered, parts of their bodies 240 00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:58,800 Speaker 2: buried in a cornfield near the Hawking River in Logan, Ohio. 241 00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:02,080 Speaker 1: Wow, this is a really brutal crime. I mean, you 242 00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:06,680 Speaker 1: have body parts buried in fields, and the prosecutors claimed 243 00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:11,680 Speaker 1: that Dale Johnson committed these murderers, and putting aside what 244 00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:14,640 Speaker 1: his motive would have been, how do they claim he 245 00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:16,960 Speaker 1: committed the murderers. 246 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:22,120 Speaker 2: The prosecutor alleged in his scenario that Dale Johnston had 247 00:16:22,800 --> 00:16:26,760 Speaker 2: kidnapped these two kids in downtown Logan, made a stop 248 00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:29,440 Speaker 2: on his way home at a doctor's office and drove 249 00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:32,000 Speaker 2: him out to his trailer, where they got into an 250 00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:36,800 Speaker 2: argument about a little used car that the parents were 251 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:39,760 Speaker 2: supposed to have given a net but hadn't yet, And 252 00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:45,240 Speaker 2: out of that argument, Dale went into a jealous fit 253 00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:48,360 Speaker 2: and pulled out a gun which they never found, and 254 00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:53,720 Speaker 2: shot his stepdaughter and the boyfriend, and then took them outside, 255 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:59,360 Speaker 2: apparently and butchered them, and then brought them back to 256 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:04,040 Speaker 2: downtown Logan where they had last been seen, and put 257 00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:10,040 Speaker 2: some body parts, heads and limbs in the cornfield. I mean, 258 00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:14,480 Speaker 2: it just it made absolutely no sense. They had no 259 00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:18,560 Speaker 2: evidence that he was actually back in town at night 260 00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:21,199 Speaker 2: trying to bury these bodies, but that's what they elect. 261 00:17:22,320 --> 00:17:26,760 Speaker 2: Dale was not a warm guy. I mean, you know, 262 00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:29,720 Speaker 2: he was the outsider. He didn't have a high opinion 263 00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:32,879 Speaker 2: of the locals. They didn't like him, you know, he 264 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:35,080 Speaker 2: was convenient guy for them to hang it on. 265 00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:39,040 Speaker 1: So, Bill, did anyone think that Dale was innocent? I mean, 266 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:43,600 Speaker 1: what was your sense of the atmosphere surrounding the case. 267 00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:48,240 Speaker 2: There was such an atmosphere of the case having been 268 00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:51,520 Speaker 2: already tried in the court of public opinion before the 269 00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:54,560 Speaker 2: trial even started. More than a year passed between the 270 00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:59,520 Speaker 2: murderers and the trial, and obviously the only story coming 271 00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:02,000 Speaker 2: out of him instigation was that Dale Johnston did it. 272 00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:05,920 Speaker 2: So that, in fact, was why the defense waived a 273 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:08,840 Speaker 2: jury trial and asked for a three judge panel, because 274 00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:13,840 Speaker 2: they knew that people in Hockey County were so predisposed 275 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:16,520 Speaker 2: to believe that Dale Johnson was the killer. 276 00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:29,720 Speaker 1: Now, very little evidence was found at the scenes where 277 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:33,399 Speaker 1: these body parts were found, but we know investigators found 278 00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:36,520 Speaker 1: some sort of print in the mud by the riverbank. 279 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:41,120 Speaker 1: And Dale goes down to the police station with his 280 00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:44,000 Speaker 1: wife Sarah, and he thinks he's going there to help 281 00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:48,080 Speaker 1: them find the killers, but they confiscate his boots, and 282 00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:51,600 Speaker 1: of course those boots would be compared to the impression 283 00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:53,919 Speaker 1: found at the scene. So tell us a little bit more. 284 00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:57,199 Speaker 2: About what happened. There were so many cops out there that, 285 00:18:57,359 --> 00:19:02,919 Speaker 2: according to the testimony of a Ohio Bureau of Investigation agent, 286 00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:06,480 Speaker 2: they totally ruined the crime scene as far as being 287 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:10,119 Speaker 2: able to collect any valid evidence. They were cops stopping 288 00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:15,080 Speaker 2: all over. Well, what happened was the sheriff of Hockeing 289 00:19:15,119 --> 00:19:20,240 Speaker 2: County had an impression made of a depression in the riverbank, 290 00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:22,560 Speaker 2: and they made it casting, and they sent it off 291 00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:27,760 Speaker 2: to the FBI, and it was examined by a nationally 292 00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:31,520 Speaker 2: known footprint expert at the FBI, and he was brought 293 00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:37,240 Speaker 2: in to testify to his findings, and he testified that, well, 294 00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:41,639 Speaker 2: all he could say that this casting was more likely 295 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:45,159 Speaker 2: a footprint than any kind of a shoe print or bootprint. 296 00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:51,080 Speaker 2: And however, he forwarded this plaster cast at his own 297 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:57,160 Speaker 2: volition to a woman anthropologist, Luis Robbins, for her examination. 298 00:19:58,119 --> 00:20:02,800 Speaker 2: And she had a the theory of how he could 299 00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:08,760 Speaker 2: identify footprints from the wear patterns on the inside of 300 00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:15,399 Speaker 2: someone's footwear. She had this Kakamami theory that by examining 301 00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:20,960 Speaker 2: the interior of a footwear she could get wear impressions 302 00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:26,240 Speaker 2: and use that to analyze a casting of a print 303 00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:30,640 Speaker 2: from a shoe or a boot. And so she testified 304 00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:34,400 Speaker 2: and trialed it. Well, you can't really say that Dale 305 00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:38,639 Speaker 2: Johnson's boot fits this, but from the wear patterns that 306 00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:43,439 Speaker 2: she observed from the interior of the boot, when you 307 00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:46,280 Speaker 2: looked at it that way, then yes, this was made 308 00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:50,320 Speaker 2: by Dale Johnson's boot. And I had never heard of 309 00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:53,040 Speaker 2: that before. It didn't make any sense to me. It 310 00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:56,280 Speaker 2: was only later, after the damage was done, that it 311 00:20:56,359 --> 00:21:01,120 Speaker 2: came out how irresponsible and unreliable and untrue. 312 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:04,800 Speaker 1: Her testimony was, so let me get this straight. This 313 00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:08,120 Speaker 1: is like, you know, kind of mind blowing here. Louise 314 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:11,800 Speaker 1: Robbins said that she could match the depression found by 315 00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:16,040 Speaker 1: the riverbank to Dale based on where patterns made by 316 00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:20,600 Speaker 1: his foot inside his boot. I mean, it just sounds ridiculous. 317 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:23,760 Speaker 1: I've never even heard of that before. This seems to 318 00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:28,600 Speaker 1: go so far outside the bounds of any verifiable science. 319 00:21:29,359 --> 00:21:31,720 Speaker 1: And you know, it's important for our listeners to keep 320 00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:36,600 Speaker 1: in mind that with impression pattern matching methods, that's that's 321 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:39,960 Speaker 1: the type of science we're talking about, or alleged science 322 00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:43,200 Speaker 1: that we're talking about. With shoe prints and tires. There's 323 00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:46,159 Speaker 1: a database that experts have and they refer to this 324 00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:49,399 Speaker 1: database when they're matching a shoe or a tire to 325 00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:53,320 Speaker 1: an impression at a scene, and tires and shoes are 326 00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:57,439 Speaker 1: mass produced, so the same rubber mold is used to 327 00:21:57,480 --> 00:22:01,040 Speaker 1: make them. But that just tells an expert what class 328 00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:04,280 Speaker 1: that piece of evidence came from. So, for instance, they 329 00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:08,240 Speaker 1: can say that this footwear impression was made by a 330 00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:12,159 Speaker 1: size ten Nike Air Jordan. But the problem is a 331 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:15,280 Speaker 1: lot of people own a size ten Nike Air Jordan, 332 00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:18,680 Speaker 1: so it's not enough to put somebody at the scene. 333 00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:23,920 Speaker 1: So impression analysis really comes down to the individual characteristics 334 00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:27,879 Speaker 1: in the specific shoe or shoes that belong to the accused, 335 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:32,120 Speaker 1: and we're talking about things like cracks in the sole 336 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:35,720 Speaker 1: of the shoe, comes stuck to the bottom of the heel, 337 00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:40,120 Speaker 1: you know, characteristics that are often caused by routine wear 338 00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:43,760 Speaker 1: and tear. But the problem is there is no standard 339 00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:47,159 Speaker 1: regarding the number of unique characteristics that are needed to 340 00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:52,439 Speaker 1: make a positive identification. And it sounds like from the 341 00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:55,400 Speaker 1: mold they were working with in this case that the 342 00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:58,920 Speaker 1: FBI analysts couldn't even tell if the impression was made 343 00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:01,560 Speaker 1: by a bare foot or or a shoe, let alone 344 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:04,960 Speaker 1: what kind of a shoe. So that should tell you 345 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:08,640 Speaker 1: something about the quality of the impression they were working with. 346 00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:12,960 Speaker 1: But miss Robbins makes this huge leap, and it's really 347 00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:16,440 Speaker 1: really hard to imagine that this could have been allowed 348 00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:19,840 Speaker 1: in a courtroom when someone's freedom was on the line. 349 00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:23,280 Speaker 1: And yet he or she is one of the prosecution's 350 00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:26,920 Speaker 1: key witnesses when it came to analyzing the physical evidence 351 00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:32,160 Speaker 1: of the scene. So how prominently did Miss Robin's testimony 352 00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:34,800 Speaker 1: play in the prosecution's closing arguments? 353 00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:38,400 Speaker 2: Bill, Well, it was very prominent because it was the 354 00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:42,399 Speaker 2: only piece of evidence that linked Dail Johnson to the 355 00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:46,960 Speaker 2: murder scene. I thought it was a very weak link 356 00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:50,160 Speaker 2: to begin with, but apparently it was strong enough for 357 00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:57,280 Speaker 2: three judges. His closing line was, murder is the ultimate 358 00:23:57,359 --> 00:24:00,680 Speaker 2: form of molestation, so you must be guilty of murder too. 359 00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:05,240 Speaker 2: He had, of course, been alleging without evidence, that Dale 360 00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:08,240 Speaker 2: Johnson had inappropriate relationship with Annette. 361 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:13,800 Speaker 1: So after he's convicted and sentence, what happens next? 362 00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:17,959 Speaker 2: Bill? He was sent immediately to death row. But you know, 363 00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:23,240 Speaker 2: it was such a weird, hostile atmosphere in that town. 364 00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:26,760 Speaker 2: I mean, I will never forget. When it came time 365 00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:30,560 Speaker 2: for the verdict, all the spectators had gathered on the 366 00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:33,240 Speaker 2: lower level of the courthouse, but listened to the verdict 367 00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:36,960 Speaker 2: by radio, and I will never forget that when the 368 00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:42,840 Speaker 2: guilty verdict was announced, there was this eerie cheering that 369 00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:46,120 Speaker 2: came from below, you know, that filled up the court room. 370 00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:50,760 Speaker 2: And these people wanted somebody to pay, and Dale Johnson 371 00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:54,720 Speaker 2: happened to be the guy who they were able to 372 00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:55,199 Speaker 2: hang it on. 373 00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:58,280 Speaker 1: I mean, it seems Bill that they didn't even have 374 00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:03,000 Speaker 1: anything other than a hunch that Dale Johnson did this. 375 00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:06,280 Speaker 1: I mean, it's hard to make sense of this. I mean, 376 00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:08,840 Speaker 1: do you think that they did this on purpose? Do 377 00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:11,720 Speaker 1: you think that they set out to frame Dale Johnson? 378 00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:17,600 Speaker 2: Well, I don't think anyone wants to accept that the 379 00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:25,080 Speaker 2: prosecutors and police would knowingly fabricate an entire case against 380 00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:28,720 Speaker 2: a murder defendant. And I know I came down to 381 00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:33,960 Speaker 2: Logan with no preconceptions. I do remember, you know, having 382 00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:37,400 Speaker 2: the belief that, you know, the state wouldn't bring these 383 00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:40,960 Speaker 2: charges unless they had something against this guy. And by 384 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:44,719 Speaker 2: the end, I said, where is the case? I was 385 00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:49,879 Speaker 2: shocked at the prosecutor's summary. I mean it it was 386 00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:57,399 Speaker 2: total high opera and total fantasy. Everything that was presented 387 00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:03,200 Speaker 2: in that trial was a lie. I believe somewhere before 388 00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:05,760 Speaker 2: I die, I'm going to learn the truth in this case, 389 00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:08,760 Speaker 2: and that just so happens that I did. 390 00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:23,960 Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting that oftentimes, when one of these 391 00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:26,960 Speaker 1: disciplines of junk science is used in a case and 392 00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:31,320 Speaker 1: the person is convicted, it's not the exposure of that 393 00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:36,200 Speaker 1: junk science as being total bullshit that leads to the exoneration. 394 00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:40,719 Speaker 1: It's often that DNA testing is used to prove that 395 00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:44,439 Speaker 1: they have the wrong person. What's really interesting about this 396 00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:49,439 Speaker 1: case is that Dale is eventually released from prison because 397 00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:52,000 Speaker 1: his lawyers were able to prove that some of the 398 00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:54,840 Speaker 1: evidence that was used the convictim was not admissible. And 399 00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:59,000 Speaker 1: oddly enough, it wasn't the shoe evidence that was thrown out, 400 00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:02,679 Speaker 1: but another witness is testimony. It turns out that a 401 00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:07,880 Speaker 1: witness had been hypnotized by a detective and was persuaded 402 00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:11,680 Speaker 1: to give this awful testimony against Dale at the trial, 403 00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:15,600 Speaker 1: and you know, testimony that he like forcefully put a 404 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:20,240 Speaker 1: net in and Todd into a car, and that testimony 405 00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:23,760 Speaker 1: was never supposed to be admitted in court, and that 406 00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:26,880 Speaker 1: was what was deemed inadmissible, and Dale was let out 407 00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:31,240 Speaker 1: because of that, and of course Louise Robbin's testimony about 408 00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:36,240 Speaker 1: his you know, the inside wear patterns on his boots, 409 00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:39,480 Speaker 1: you know, being definitive proof that the impression left on 410 00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:42,720 Speaker 1: the riverbank was his, that was left undisturbed. And everyone 411 00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:46,960 Speaker 1: still believed he was guilty. But then someone else confessed 412 00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:50,080 Speaker 1: to murdering a net and Todd, so Bill tell us 413 00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:52,600 Speaker 1: about that. Who actually committed this crime. 414 00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:59,600 Speaker 2: A sorry little fellow named Chester McKnight. Was nicknamed Chester 415 00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:04,720 Speaker 2: the just because apparently because it was weird and was 416 00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:09,920 Speaker 2: an habitual criminal, habitual drunk, even though he had a 417 00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:14,840 Speaker 2: history of assaults against women. And Chester actually got married 418 00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:18,880 Speaker 2: and it lasted a couple of weeks before she kicked 419 00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:22,080 Speaker 2: him out and left. And it was in that atmosphere 420 00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:25,480 Speaker 2: where Chester just went over the deep end and was 421 00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:30,120 Speaker 2: drinking day in and day out. He was obviously depressed, 422 00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:33,840 Speaker 2: the wife had left him, and he was just drinking incessantly. 423 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:38,960 Speaker 2: He came on that afternoon, early evening of October fourth, 424 00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:44,000 Speaker 2: to Kenny Lynn Scott's house, a local drug dealer. You know, 425 00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:47,040 Speaker 2: they were drinking buddies. Anyway, there was a kind of 426 00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:51,880 Speaker 2: a makeshift party in Kenny's yard and Chester joined in 427 00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:56,160 Speaker 2: and here comes Todd and Annette. So they joined the 428 00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:58,000 Speaker 2: party for a little while. I think they may have 429 00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:03,200 Speaker 2: had a beer, and Chester decided to hey, let's keep 430 00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:06,240 Speaker 2: the party going. I've got some I've got some stuff. 431 00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:09,240 Speaker 2: And so they start walking down the railroad tracks and 432 00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:14,880 Speaker 2: according to Chester's account, he wanted to have a group 433 00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:19,960 Speaker 2: sex with Annette, and she of course know and Todd 434 00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:24,680 Speaker 2: tried to get her out of the situation, and that's 435 00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:28,160 Speaker 2: when Chester pulled a gun and shot him, and that 436 00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:32,480 Speaker 2: started screaming. She shot her. At that point, Chester and 437 00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:36,680 Speaker 2: Kenny dragged the bodies down to the riverfront at the 438 00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:41,040 Speaker 2: edge of the cornfield and dismembered them. And Kenny, maybe 439 00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:44,120 Speaker 2: with help maybe not, got the bodies back into the 440 00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:47,000 Speaker 2: cornfield and dug shallow holes and put the limbs and 441 00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:50,200 Speaker 2: the heads into a kind of a bear spot in 442 00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:52,560 Speaker 2: the middle of the cornfield that he knew about. And 443 00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:55,720 Speaker 2: Kenny the next few nights he would go out to 444 00:29:55,760 --> 00:30:00,000 Speaker 2: that railroad bridge and cry and moan, and friends saying 445 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:03,120 Speaker 2: what's wrong, Kenny, And he told him, Yo, you wouldn't understand. 446 00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:06,240 Speaker 2: His neighbors knew what he was doing. His neighbors saw 447 00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:09,400 Speaker 2: his behavior, his neighbors told the police that they should 448 00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:13,240 Speaker 2: be investigating him, but they never did, and they didn't 449 00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:16,760 Speaker 2: have a record then of this strange call made the 450 00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:20,720 Speaker 2: night before the body parts were found. Kenny Linscott made 451 00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:23,520 Speaker 2: the call and said, have you found the bodies yet? 452 00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:27,080 Speaker 2: And nobody at that point knew that the kids were 453 00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:30,800 Speaker 2: even dead or that there were bodies to be found, 454 00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:34,280 Speaker 2: And that call was logged and it became the thing 455 00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:39,480 Speaker 2: that led to Kenny and ultimately to Chester. And so 456 00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:42,600 Speaker 2: I have a law enforcement source that helped me with this, 457 00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:45,560 Speaker 2: and he told me that, you know, everybody knew Kenny 458 00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:48,880 Speaker 2: was acting weird after the killings, and he said, well, 459 00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:51,680 Speaker 2: let's go talk to Kenny. And the sheriff says, oh no, 460 00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:54,680 Speaker 2: we confined him when them we need him. So at 461 00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:57,880 Speaker 2: the very beginning, lin Scott's name came up, but yet 462 00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:00,600 Speaker 2: the police just dismissed him right out of a hand. 463 00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:03,400 Speaker 1: In reflecting on all this, I just want to go 464 00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:06,480 Speaker 1: back to Luis Robin's testimony about the shoe print for 465 00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:10,520 Speaker 1: a moment. I understand why jurors would be persuaded by her. 466 00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:15,840 Speaker 1: She's got this anthropology degree, she's a professor, she comes 467 00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:19,880 Speaker 1: across I'm sure, convincingly she went and studied these ancient 468 00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:25,520 Speaker 1: footprints in Tanzania. That all makes sense. But the three 469 00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:29,920 Speaker 1: judges hearing this, you know, the inside wear patterns on 470 00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:33,000 Speaker 1: the boot and that being definitive proof that it was 471 00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:37,520 Speaker 1: Dale Johnson's bootprint. I mean, what did they make of 472 00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:38,400 Speaker 1: her testimony? 473 00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:43,960 Speaker 2: I can tell you how strongly her testimony was accepted. 474 00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:47,360 Speaker 2: Twenty five years later, you know, when the real truth 475 00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:52,160 Speaker 2: came out. I interviewed two of the three judges on 476 00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:56,320 Speaker 2: the case and they both said, well, we had doctor 477 00:31:56,440 --> 00:32:00,840 Speaker 2: Robin's testimony before, so that was very convincing. This was 478 00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:05,000 Speaker 2: even after they learned the truth, after they learned that 479 00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:07,760 Speaker 2: everything this woman said was was a lie, they still 480 00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:11,760 Speaker 2: wanted to wanted to believe in her. I have summed 481 00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:17,680 Speaker 2: up this case as a total collapse of a local 482 00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:23,480 Speaker 2: justice system, and I still believe that it left me 483 00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:28,000 Speaker 2: with such a sense of outrage that this kind of 484 00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:31,880 Speaker 2: thing can be done in our system of justice toom 485 00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:34,800 Speaker 2: and I mean, you know it was it was not 486 00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:38,480 Speaker 2: even close, but the lies that were told in that 487 00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:41,880 Speaker 2: courtroom were enough to send an into some man to 488 00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:46,239 Speaker 2: death row sitting there through the entire trial. Is they 489 00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:50,520 Speaker 2: never they never presented a rational case, and the evidence 490 00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:54,840 Speaker 2: that they did present was you know, challenged very successfully 491 00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:57,240 Speaker 2: by the defense. I mean, what I learned is that 492 00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:03,960 Speaker 2: someone with an academic position and mcclaim of scientific expertise 493 00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:10,640 Speaker 2: is automatically granted some level of believability, even by judges 494 00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:17,840 Speaker 2: and prosecutors and investigators. And they really accepted Louise Robins testimony, 495 00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:22,760 Speaker 2: and as fact I called it in my book Fantasy Forensics, 496 00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:28,240 Speaker 2: and as events have proven it was totally fabricated. I 497 00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:33,400 Speaker 2: can only attribute it to the desire to get a conviction, 498 00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:37,320 Speaker 2: any conviction. That people in that town were petrified. The 499 00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:40,400 Speaker 2: judges knew it, They knew what would happen if they 500 00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:43,160 Speaker 2: didn't get a conviction, and they knew that they wouldn't 501 00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:45,680 Speaker 2: have another crack at Dale Johnson if they acquitted him. 502 00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:51,320 Speaker 2: So they convicted him and just you know, went back home. 503 00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:58,880 Speaker 1: The use of doctor Robins is a forensic expert, is 504 00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:01,960 Speaker 1: an example of what can go horribly wrong when courts 505 00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:07,800 Speaker 1: allow unverified signs into our courtrooms. She testified in twenty cases, 506 00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:12,280 Speaker 1: truly a hired gun by attorneys looking for a particular outcome. 507 00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:16,440 Speaker 1: Her work was reviewed by a panel of one hundred 508 00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:21,960 Speaker 1: and thirty five anthropologists, forensic scientists, lawyers, and legal scholars 509 00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:26,359 Speaker 1: sponsored by the American Academy of Forensic Sciences, and they 510 00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:31,920 Speaker 1: concluded that her methodology for identification had no basis in science, 511 00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:36,400 Speaker 1: but the damage had already been done. Dale Johnson spent 512 00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:39,480 Speaker 1: four years on death row for a double homicide that 513 00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:43,399 Speaker 1: he didn't commit. But he was fortunate and that even 514 00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:47,279 Speaker 1: though his trial left him impoverished, his attorneys stayed on 515 00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:51,400 Speaker 1: his case pro bono and took on the appeals. The 516 00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:55,920 Speaker 1: psychological trauma inflicted on those who were wrongfully convicted, especially 517 00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:58,600 Speaker 1: for people who are innocent and sit on death row, 518 00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:02,920 Speaker 1: is well documented. It isn't just the conviction that stays 519 00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:08,279 Speaker 1: with the wrongfully convicted, it's the aftermath. Dale lost it all. 520 00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:13,760 Speaker 1: He lost his stepdaughter, his property, his wife divorced him. 521 00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:17,759 Speaker 1: It wasn't until well into his eighties, actually earlier this year, 522 00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:21,480 Speaker 1: that Dale finally received some compensation for his time spent 523 00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:25,920 Speaker 1: in prison. The Innocence Project provides support for therapy and 524 00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:28,920 Speaker 1: social services for its clients who are forced to cope 525 00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:32,759 Speaker 1: with the harms associated with their wrongful conviction. You can 526 00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:38,000 Speaker 1: donate to the Innocence Project by visiting www. Dot Innocenceproject 527 00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:49,000 Speaker 1: dot org slash give. Next week we'll explore the junk 528 00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:55,040 Speaker 1: science of fingerprint evidence. Wrongful Conviction Junk Science is a 529 00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:58,520 Speaker 1: production of Lava for Good Podcasts in association with Signal 530 00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:02,240 Speaker 1: Company Number One. Thanks to our executive producer Jason Flamm 531 00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:05,880 Speaker 1: and the team at Signal Company Number one executive producer 532 00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:09,960 Speaker 1: Kevin Wardis and senior producers Kara Kornhaber and Britz Spangler. 533 00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:11,520 Speaker 2: Our music was. 534 00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:15,040 Speaker 1: Composed by Jay Ralph. You can follow me on Instagram 535 00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:19,400 Speaker 1: at dubin Josh, follow the Wrongful Conviction podcast on Facebook 536 00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:23,160 Speaker 1: and on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Twitter at 537 00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:24,000 Speaker 1: wrong Conviction