1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:13,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, okay. Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, 2 00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:18,720 Speaker 1: a weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all 3 00:00:18,720 --> 00:00:21,400 Speaker 1: the small decisions we can make to become the best 4 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:25,760 Speaker 1: possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr Joy hard 5 00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:30,560 Speaker 1: and Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more 6 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:34,640 Speaker 1: information or to find a therapist in your area, visit 7 00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:38,760 Speaker 1: our website at Therapy for Black Girls dot com. While 8 00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:42,479 Speaker 1: I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast, 9 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:46,080 Speaker 1: it is not meant to be a substitute for relationship 10 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:57,080 Speaker 1: with a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so 11 00:00:57,160 --> 00:00:59,400 Speaker 1: much for joining me for session two eighteen of the 12 00:00:59,400 --> 00:01:02,880 Speaker 1: Therapy for Like Girls Podcast. We'll get into the episode 13 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:16,199 Speaker 1: right after a word from our sponsors. Watching reality TV 14 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:19,360 Speaker 1: shows are one of my favorite pastimes. Some of my 15 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:23,120 Speaker 1: favorites have been Trading spaces early seasons of the Real 16 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:26,880 Speaker 1: World and of course the Real Housewives. It's been really 17 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:29,720 Speaker 1: interesting to see how programming in this space has developed 18 00:01:29,720 --> 00:01:33,160 Speaker 1: over time and to follow the commentary, and what has 19 00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:35,440 Speaker 1: been most interesting is the way the space has been 20 00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:39,360 Speaker 1: accommodating or not so much to black women, cast members 21 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:43,800 Speaker 1: and black audiences. To help us explore this world Today. 22 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:47,319 Speaker 1: I'm joined by Dr Rockhale Gates. Dr Gates is an 23 00:01:47,360 --> 00:01:51,360 Speaker 1: Associate professor of Film at Columbia University and the author 24 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:55,440 Speaker 1: of Double Negative, The Black Image and Popular Culture. She 25 00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:59,760 Speaker 1: received her PhD from Northwestern University's Department of Screen Cultures 26 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:03,480 Speaker 1: and holds an Emma and Humanities from the University of Chicago, 27 00:02:03,920 --> 00:02:06,280 Speaker 1: as well as a b s. And Foreign Service from 28 00:02:06,360 --> 00:02:11,120 Speaker 1: Georgetown University. Currently, she's working on her second book, titled 29 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 1: Hollywood Style and the Invention of Blackness, for which she 30 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:17,840 Speaker 1: was awarded an Academy Film Scholar Grant by the Academy 31 00:02:17,880 --> 00:02:22,680 Speaker 1: of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences in Her writing appears 32 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 1: in both academic and popular publications such as The New 33 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:29,600 Speaker 1: York Times, the Los Angeles Review of Books and Film Quarterly. 34 00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:32,640 Speaker 1: She lives in Brooklyn with her partner and two sons. 35 00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:36,760 Speaker 1: Dr Gates and I chatted about the complicated nature of 36 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:41,720 Speaker 1: black women's representation on reality TV, how audiences often respond 37 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:45,639 Speaker 1: to majority black cast, the stereotypes that are both upheld 38 00:02:45,760 --> 00:02:49,480 Speaker 1: and dispelled through reality TV, and the changes that often 39 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:52,960 Speaker 1: happened between seasons one and two of a show. If 40 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:55,959 Speaker 1: there's something that resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, 41 00:02:56,440 --> 00:02:58,680 Speaker 1: Please share it with us on social media using the 42 00:02:58,720 --> 00:03:06,240 Speaker 1: hashtag tv g in session. Here's our conversation. Thank you 43 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:08,640 Speaker 1: so much for joining us today, Dr Gates. Thank you 44 00:03:08,720 --> 00:03:11,959 Speaker 1: so much for having me. Yeah, I am so happy 45 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:14,360 Speaker 1: to have you here. Reality TV is like one of 46 00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:17,560 Speaker 1: my favorite things to enjoy, so I love to talk 47 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:20,360 Speaker 1: to you, you know, people who are researching in this area. 48 00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:22,640 Speaker 1: So can you start by telling us a little bit 49 00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:26,040 Speaker 1: about what fascinates you about media studies and how you 50 00:03:26,120 --> 00:03:30,520 Speaker 1: got into studying reality TV? Sure? So, what fascinates me 51 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:35,080 Speaker 1: about studying media but also film is that I think 52 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:40,320 Speaker 1: that film and television are these sources of connection between people. 53 00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:43,480 Speaker 1: And I think that, you know, sometimes in spite of 54 00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:48,200 Speaker 1: our backgrounds, sort of our shared experiences with different movies 55 00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:52,040 Speaker 1: or different television shows allow us to tap into something 56 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:54,960 Speaker 1: and sort of form a site of human connection. I 57 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:58,880 Speaker 1: also think that sometimes we can work out our own 58 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:04,600 Speaker 1: feelings and experiences vicariously through watching film and television. And 59 00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:08,440 Speaker 1: I think that's where reality television is particularly unique, because 60 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:12,120 Speaker 1: it's so much about sort of daily lived experience, and 61 00:04:12,160 --> 00:04:15,480 Speaker 1: of course that's like played for drama and you know, 62 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:17,799 Speaker 1: for comedy and all kinds of things, but I think 63 00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:21,600 Speaker 1: that at its core reality television in particular, you know, 64 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:25,400 Speaker 1: the draw is this sort of very real connection with 65 00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:28,200 Speaker 1: the cast members, and I think that's a huge source 66 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:31,719 Speaker 1: of pleasure for the audience. For me, how did I 67 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:36,159 Speaker 1: get into studying reality television? So I'm by training, I'm 68 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:39,719 Speaker 1: a film and media study scholar, and I'm also a 69 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:44,240 Speaker 1: fan of reality television. And you know, there's a point where, 70 00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:47,120 Speaker 1: at least from me, when I was sort of reading, 71 00:04:47,440 --> 00:04:51,000 Speaker 1: you know, like newspaper articles or just sort of listening 72 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:53,279 Speaker 1: to the ways that people were talking about reality television, 73 00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:57,719 Speaker 1: it always seemed to sell the genre kind of short, 74 00:04:58,080 --> 00:05:02,120 Speaker 1: and it seemed to resume a lack of sophistication on 75 00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 1: the part of the audiences, which are primarily women. And 76 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:08,000 Speaker 1: for me, the light bulb went off, because that's typically 77 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:12,760 Speaker 1: what happens when you are talking about genres that are 78 00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:18,640 Speaker 1: primarily enjoyed by audiences who are not like straight white men. 79 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:22,760 Speaker 1: And so for me, I really wanted to sort of 80 00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:25,960 Speaker 1: turn a segment of my research to reality television to 81 00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:29,520 Speaker 1: really sort of get at the nuances of what make 82 00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:33,440 Speaker 1: it so pleasurable. But also I would argue so powerful 83 00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:37,800 Speaker 1: and so enduring. Mmmmmmmmm. So it feels like the genre 84 00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:41,200 Speaker 1: really has kind of expanded, right, Like I think I'm 85 00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:43,720 Speaker 1: guessing you probably know this better than I do. Like, 86 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:46,360 Speaker 1: is the real world kind of like our first real 87 00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:50,159 Speaker 1: fury into reality TV? So can you talk just about 88 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:53,839 Speaker 1: like how the genre has expanded beyond stuff like real World? Sure, 89 00:05:54,040 --> 00:05:56,640 Speaker 1: I mean people always cite the real world, right like 90 00:05:56,680 --> 00:06:00,960 Speaker 1: that two moment I'm I think of that is like 91 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:06,080 Speaker 1: the dawn of the contemporary era of reality television. But 92 00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:08,760 Speaker 1: if we're thinking about the nuts and bolts of what 93 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:12,400 Speaker 1: makes something reality television, like the idea that it's unscripted, 94 00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:14,760 Speaker 1: the idea that we're getting like a behind the scenes 95 00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:17,760 Speaker 1: look at either a person or a community that we 96 00:06:17,760 --> 00:06:20,480 Speaker 1: don't normally get, then I'd argue you have to actually 97 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:24,039 Speaker 1: go back to the nineteen fifties, right, and something like 98 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:27,080 Speaker 1: um Edward Murrow's Person a Person, which was a television 99 00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:29,920 Speaker 1: show where the journalist would he'd go visit the home 100 00:06:29,960 --> 00:06:32,520 Speaker 1: of celebrities and get this sort of candid interview where 101 00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:34,640 Speaker 1: they would talk about various things in terms of their 102 00:06:34,640 --> 00:06:36,800 Speaker 1: personal life and their in their professional lives. You have 103 00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:39,880 Speaker 1: to think about something like Candid Camera, that television show, right, 104 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:43,479 Speaker 1: which is about playing jokes on unsuspecting people. You could 105 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:46,080 Speaker 1: also think about all of the game shows that became 106 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:49,760 Speaker 1: really popular in the nineteen fifties. There's a television show 107 00:06:49,839 --> 00:06:52,039 Speaker 1: that I like to teach in my reality TV class 108 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:54,400 Speaker 1: called Queen for a Day, which was, you know, this 109 00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:56,839 Speaker 1: show where women would come on and they would sort 110 00:06:56,880 --> 00:07:00,080 Speaker 1: of talk about, you know, all of the things that 111 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:02,159 Speaker 1: we're going wrong in their lives, and if like the 112 00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:06,400 Speaker 1: audience thought their sob stories were pathetic enough, they would 113 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:09,120 Speaker 1: win something, they'd win a prize. And it's clearly a 114 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:11,840 Speaker 1: predecessor to something like Extreme Home Makeover, you know, which 115 00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:14,000 Speaker 1: is a show that we're more familiar with now. You know. 116 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:18,520 Speaker 1: I also throw out the film sociological experiments that happens 117 00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:21,600 Speaker 1: like in the sixties and the seventies, the Stanford Prison Experiment, 118 00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:24,720 Speaker 1: things like that. And you know, one of my favorite 119 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:31,320 Speaker 1: examples that I like to teach JFK's filmed televised birthday 120 00:07:31,360 --> 00:07:34,680 Speaker 1: party at Madison Square Garden where Marilyn Monroe comes out 121 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:38,240 Speaker 1: and sings this very you know, sort of sexy version 122 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:42,480 Speaker 1: of Happy Perthday to him as his wife watches it right. So, 123 00:07:42,840 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 1: like when you think about what makes reality TV reality TV, 124 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:50,720 Speaker 1: I think that, you know, especially American audiences have been 125 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:55,440 Speaker 1: engaging with you know, that type of thing well before 126 00:07:55,640 --> 00:07:59,520 Speaker 1: we had an official name for the genre. Mm hmmm. Yeah. 127 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:01,440 Speaker 1: And as you talking and also made me think of 128 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:04,720 Speaker 1: this show with Regions he said, what's his name, Region's 129 00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 1: Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous with um with Robin Leach. Right, Yes, 130 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:15,200 Speaker 1: I thought was famous, which is totally the predecessor to Cribs. 131 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:20,960 Speaker 1: Absolutely absolutely, It's fascinating. Yeah. So now you know you 132 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:23,200 Speaker 1: mentioned a couple of things, right, So we still have 133 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:25,920 Speaker 1: the real world type kind of shows where we have 134 00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:29,040 Speaker 1: things like Extreme Makeover, we have the game shows. Are 135 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:31,720 Speaker 1: there other types of programming that kind of are also 136 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:34,920 Speaker 1: considered reality TV? I mean, I think anytime you're thinking 137 00:08:34,920 --> 00:08:39,440 Speaker 1: of unscripted, I think something like An American Family, which 138 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:42,679 Speaker 1: was a docuseries that ain't that aired in the seventies, 139 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:45,440 Speaker 1: which was about you know, sort of looking at it 140 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:47,720 Speaker 1: was like a domestic drama, you know, sort of seeing 141 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:50,079 Speaker 1: what was going on with the family and parents eventually 142 00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:52,520 Speaker 1: split up and one of the sons is gay and 143 00:08:52,559 --> 00:08:54,720 Speaker 1: he leaves their town and he goes to New York, 144 00:08:54,840 --> 00:08:58,319 Speaker 1: and I mean it's a lot of scholars sort of 145 00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:04,040 Speaker 1: cite that as like the pre reality TV text and yeah, 146 00:09:04,080 --> 00:09:06,920 Speaker 1: but I think that when you start like pulling the 147 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:09,400 Speaker 1: threads of all of the things that make reality TV 148 00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:12,040 Speaker 1: reality TV, then I think we realize that a lot 149 00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:15,320 Speaker 1: of shows actually sort of have fit into that for 150 00:09:15,400 --> 00:09:18,880 Speaker 1: quite some time. Mm hmmm. So you mentioned earlier that 151 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:21,800 Speaker 1: you feel like something that's incredibly powerful about the genre 152 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:25,760 Speaker 1: of reality TV is like the relationships or para social relationships. 153 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:28,200 Speaker 1: I guess in some ways that people form with the 154 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:31,480 Speaker 1: cast members. Can you say more about like why that 155 00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:35,240 Speaker 1: is so powerful? What I think happens with reality television 156 00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:39,240 Speaker 1: is I actually think it provides an opportunity for residents 157 00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:43,120 Speaker 1: and it provides an opportunity for empathy. And that's different 158 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:46,920 Speaker 1: for me than identification. Identification is that character reminds me 159 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:49,760 Speaker 1: of myself because profession is similar. They look like me, 160 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:53,640 Speaker 1: you know, something like that. But residents is there's something 161 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:57,360 Speaker 1: about what they're dealing with that connects with me. Right, 162 00:09:57,400 --> 00:09:59,680 Speaker 1: I don't have to have anything else in common with them. 163 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:02,920 Speaker 1: I think about the Kardashians, right where even people can't 164 00:10:02,920 --> 00:10:06,280 Speaker 1: stand that show whenever the sisters fight. I always noticed 165 00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:08,560 Speaker 1: this online that people will say, I don't even like 166 00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:10,960 Speaker 1: the kardashi is, but man, when she hit her sister 167 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:13,600 Speaker 1: with the purse, like, yeah, I felt that. I know that, right, 168 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:17,080 Speaker 1: And so I think that reality TV, because of the 169 00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:20,520 Speaker 1: unscripted nature of it, you get a lot of those moments, 170 00:10:20,520 --> 00:10:23,440 Speaker 1: these sort of small things that connect with us on 171 00:10:23,520 --> 00:10:26,880 Speaker 1: an experiential level that in any other context wouldn't really 172 00:10:26,920 --> 00:10:29,240 Speaker 1: make for good television, like it it has nothing to 173 00:10:29,280 --> 00:10:31,840 Speaker 1: do with the plot. They're not really good narrative beats. 174 00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:34,800 Speaker 1: You get those moments, and you get that in reality 175 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:40,360 Speaker 1: television because of the nature of what reality television does. Mmmmmmmmm. 176 00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:42,560 Speaker 1: And I want to just drill down a little bit 177 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:47,280 Speaker 1: specifically when we think about black women in reality TV, right, 178 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:49,800 Speaker 1: and so you know Heather b was of course on 179 00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:52,760 Speaker 1: the Real World, but you're talking about like even before that, 180 00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:55,520 Speaker 1: are there other instances where we can kind of trace 181 00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:58,800 Speaker 1: the history of black women in reality TV? Well, I 182 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:03,880 Speaker 1: mean I think in terms of sort of before that, right, 183 00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:08,440 Speaker 1: we have like black women's celebrities who are on game shows, right, 184 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:10,720 Speaker 1: I mean, we we definitely get that, right, I'm thinking 185 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:14,040 Speaker 1: of like Horn and Dorothy damage being on these games shows, especially, 186 00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:16,440 Speaker 1: you know, the ones that are focused on celebrity, and 187 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:19,000 Speaker 1: those are always sort of fun moments because you get 188 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:22,400 Speaker 1: to see them, you know, being silly and being you know, 189 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:24,280 Speaker 1: I don't want to say being real, because they're obviously 190 00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:25,960 Speaker 1: still performing, but you get to see a version of 191 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:28,640 Speaker 1: them that's really different than they're sort of, you know, 192 00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:33,640 Speaker 1: very carefully curated Hollywood film version. I actually think that 193 00:11:33,679 --> 00:11:36,600 Speaker 1: if you go back to like the origins of cinema, 194 00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:40,599 Speaker 1: like in the eighteen nineties, you have these interesting moments 195 00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:45,280 Speaker 1: um where blackness is sort of both the side of 196 00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:48,280 Speaker 1: performance and a side of authenticity. And and so what 197 00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:50,600 Speaker 1: I mean by that is, you know, early cinema, it 198 00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:53,079 Speaker 1: wasn't like narrative yet. I mean, some things were sort 199 00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:55,400 Speaker 1: of stage and little scenarios, and some things were like 200 00:11:55,520 --> 00:11:58,000 Speaker 1: look at this black woman washing her baby, right, because 201 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:00,680 Speaker 1: so much of it was about just the fascination with 202 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:04,240 Speaker 1: the medium itself, not necessarily with the content. And so 203 00:12:04,280 --> 00:12:07,520 Speaker 1: I think in early cinema you have this interesting slippet 204 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:11,000 Speaker 1: which is relevant to black women in reality TV today, 205 00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:14,439 Speaker 1: where this line between are they being real, are they 206 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:18,199 Speaker 1: being themselves? Versus are they performing or are they performing 207 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:21,400 Speaker 1: for the camera that's not always clear and that's a 208 00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:24,240 Speaker 1: little blurry, And I would argue that's part of the 209 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:26,920 Speaker 1: pleasure in early cinema, and I think that's also part 210 00:12:26,920 --> 00:12:30,120 Speaker 1: of the pleasure in contemporary reality TV. But that's also 211 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:33,720 Speaker 1: the kind of conundrum that leads to some of the 212 00:12:33,760 --> 00:12:37,000 Speaker 1: debates that we have about representation of black women on 213 00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:40,800 Speaker 1: reality tube. Mm hmmm, yeah. And so can you say 214 00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:43,439 Speaker 1: more about that? I mean, because you know we exist, 215 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:46,599 Speaker 1: especially in the US, we know that there are stereotypes 216 00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:49,600 Speaker 1: that people play into when they're you know, casting particularly 217 00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:52,200 Speaker 1: black women for certain kinds of shows, And so can 218 00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:54,480 Speaker 1: you talk more about, like how some of those stereotypes 219 00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:56,960 Speaker 1: do you play out and the investment that the genre 220 00:12:57,040 --> 00:13:00,160 Speaker 1: has in like casting certain kinds of black women. I 221 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:04,200 Speaker 1: think a lot about Amar Rossa from The Apprentice when 222 00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:06,640 Speaker 1: this topic comes up. You know, Amar Rossa, who is 223 00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:11,040 Speaker 1: like like an almost cartoonish, like angry black woman, kind 224 00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:12,679 Speaker 1: of like i'll put this in quotes, even though no 225 00:13:12,679 --> 00:13:15,000 Speaker 1: one can see me, like black bitch type of character, right, 226 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:18,319 Speaker 1: like like a very like typical TV villain. And I 227 00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:22,760 Speaker 1: always remember seeing her on an episode of Dr Phil 228 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:25,559 Speaker 1: after her season had aired she was talking about the 229 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:27,920 Speaker 1: backlash that she got and you know, all this stuff, 230 00:13:27,920 --> 00:13:30,200 Speaker 1: and and he was like, well you did that. You 231 00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:33,080 Speaker 1: have to take responsibility for yourself. And she said, which 232 00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:34,960 Speaker 1: I thought was so brilliant, there were a lot of 233 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:39,280 Speaker 1: black women at that casting. They could have picked anybody 234 00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:41,439 Speaker 1: they wanted to. What I presented on this show is 235 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:44,640 Speaker 1: exactly what I brought to the casting. So is it 236 00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:46,880 Speaker 1: me who sort of playing up a role that I 237 00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:48,880 Speaker 1: knew would like get me on the show and get 238 00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:52,440 Speaker 1: me airtime. Absolutely, but the producers didn't have to cast me. 239 00:13:52,640 --> 00:13:56,000 Speaker 1: They didn't have to give me airtime. She pointed out 240 00:13:56,040 --> 00:13:58,400 Speaker 1: that on the season following her, there was another black 241 00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:02,280 Speaker 1: Apprentice member who barely got any screen time and they 242 00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:05,559 Speaker 1: edited out all of her stuff. Right, I think it 243 00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:08,600 Speaker 1: gets really complicated. You mentioned how there Be and one 244 00:14:08,640 --> 00:14:11,320 Speaker 1: of the things how there Be said pretty famously when 245 00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:13,480 Speaker 1: I can't remember who it was, I think it was 246 00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:15,400 Speaker 1: Tammy Roma, but it could have been. But it's sort 247 00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:17,679 Speaker 1: of a later a black woman in reality TV. You know, 248 00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:20,800 Speaker 1: it was like the editing, the editing, and Heather said, well, 249 00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:23,880 Speaker 1: they can't use what you don't give them, and that's true, 250 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:27,680 Speaker 1: but also you can edit people in all kinds of ways, right. 251 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:31,760 Speaker 1: I think that audiences now were very savvy about that 252 00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:35,360 Speaker 1: type of thing. But I think what we haven't necessarily 253 00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:39,160 Speaker 1: talked enough about is that it's also about legibility. It's 254 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:42,680 Speaker 1: also about sort of the perceptions and the biases on 255 00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 1: behalf of the audience that they don't even realize they're 256 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:47,840 Speaker 1: bringing into their interpretation of the shows. And so an 257 00:14:47,840 --> 00:14:49,840 Speaker 1: example I think of a lot is when The Real 258 00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:53,320 Speaker 1: Housewives of Atlanta premiered, and that's the first black cast 259 00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:56,720 Speaker 1: Housewives show at the time. Now there's Potomac obviously, which 260 00:14:56,720 --> 00:15:01,560 Speaker 1: is premiered, which was amazing anyway, But when Atlanta premiers, 261 00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:06,600 Speaker 1: I remember reading like Housewives message boards and I saw 262 00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:09,360 Speaker 1: the women being talked about in a way I had 263 00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:13,400 Speaker 1: never seen with any of the white cast before. So 264 00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:16,200 Speaker 1: they were referring to them as lazy, you know. They 265 00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:18,880 Speaker 1: kept saying things like, oh, they're just so big, like 266 00:15:18,880 --> 00:15:20,920 Speaker 1: like things like that, right, I mean, like things that 267 00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:25,760 Speaker 1: were clearly sort of like stereotypes and tropes about black 268 00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:27,320 Speaker 1: women that had nothing to do with the show, that 269 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:30,320 Speaker 1: had nothing to do with this particular cast, But even 270 00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:33,240 Speaker 1: saying things like they're lazy and their gold diggers on 271 00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:37,080 Speaker 1: a show that is literally about housewives, right, on a 272 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:40,160 Speaker 1: show in which when women have gone out and worked. 273 00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:44,160 Speaker 1: I've also seen audiences criticized that as well. Right, there's 274 00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:47,480 Speaker 1: a constant refrain from the Housewives fans where people will 275 00:15:47,520 --> 00:15:49,840 Speaker 1: be like, there's no real housewives on here, and then 276 00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:53,840 Speaker 1: you get Atlanta where you have like housewives and they're 277 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:56,240 Speaker 1: being they're called gold diggers, you know, and that that 278 00:15:56,360 --> 00:15:59,760 Speaker 1: has everything to do with perceptions of black women, regardless 279 00:15:59,760 --> 00:16:02,040 Speaker 1: of what they do or don't do. So you know, 280 00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:04,360 Speaker 1: I think these things get tricky. I think editing plays 281 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:07,240 Speaker 1: a part. I think obviously past members have agency in 282 00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:09,520 Speaker 1: terms of what they choose to put on the show 283 00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:12,240 Speaker 1: and how they choose to behave on the show. But 284 00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:15,280 Speaker 1: I also think that audiences bring their own readings and 285 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:19,840 Speaker 1: their own lenses in their own perspectives when they're watching. Yeah. Absolutely, 286 00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:22,680 Speaker 1: I mean, and you know, if I remember correctly, Real 287 00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:25,000 Speaker 1: Housewives of Alian of course was not the first one, 288 00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:26,880 Speaker 1: but like you mentioned, it was the first like kind 289 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:29,200 Speaker 1: of black cast, but I feel like it was also 290 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:33,000 Speaker 1: the highest rated. Was Oh, definitely, definitely, I mean Atlanta 291 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:36,400 Speaker 1: has I don't want to get my numbers wrong, but 292 00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:40,760 Speaker 1: Atlanta has pretty much since it premiered been the highest 293 00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:44,480 Speaker 1: rated of the Housewives shows. Everybody knows that. Everybody acknowledges that. 294 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:47,600 Speaker 1: And yeah, they were I want to say they were third. 295 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:51,080 Speaker 1: It was o C New York, and then I believe Atlanta. 296 00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:53,440 Speaker 1: I was getting Atlanta Jersey sort of inverted into my head. 297 00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:55,320 Speaker 1: But but yeah, but I mean just kind of out 298 00:16:55,360 --> 00:16:59,479 Speaker 1: the gates. They were killing it in the ratings, you know, yeah, absolutely, 299 00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:02,800 Speaker 1: mm hmmm. Yeah. And you mentioned earlier, you know, like 300 00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:05,200 Speaker 1: that a part of what is attractive about the genre 301 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:07,000 Speaker 1: is that people are able to kind of relate to 302 00:17:07,040 --> 00:17:10,600 Speaker 1: the stories people share. But I wonder if there is 303 00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:13,880 Speaker 1: something about, you know, like both The Housewives of Atlanta 304 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:17,600 Speaker 1: and Photomac that non black audiences feel like they cannot 305 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:20,760 Speaker 1: relate to the stories being shared by these women. I mean, 306 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:24,080 Speaker 1: it's possible. There's an interesting thing that I notice among 307 00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:26,840 Speaker 1: who aren't presuming our white Housewives fans. I mean, I 308 00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:29,639 Speaker 1: don't know. This is just me going off of message 309 00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:32,360 Speaker 1: boards and Facebook groups and Twitter, where people feel very 310 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:36,040 Speaker 1: comfortable saying I watched all the Housewives shows but not 311 00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:39,439 Speaker 1: Atlanta or Pretona and like, and they don't seem to 312 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:41,560 Speaker 1: feel any kind of way about saying that, you know 313 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:45,600 Speaker 1: what I mean, which is interesting, right, So you know, 314 00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:48,159 Speaker 1: I think that one of the strengths of the Housewives 315 00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:52,800 Speaker 1: shows is that there's different ways in And what I 316 00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:56,040 Speaker 1: mean is that the Housewives shows on Bravo, like Bravo 317 00:17:56,119 --> 00:17:59,800 Speaker 1: has a very different approach in my opinion, than a 318 00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:01,840 Speaker 1: lot of the v H one reality shows like Love 319 00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:04,440 Speaker 1: and Hip Hop. And what I mean by that is Bravo. 320 00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:08,000 Speaker 1: They call it the Bravo wink, and it what really, 321 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:10,159 Speaker 1: what it means is that when you're an audience member, 322 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:12,600 Speaker 1: you're always kind of on the side of the producers 323 00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:15,640 Speaker 1: against the cast, right, Like there there's an invitation, through 324 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:18,040 Speaker 1: editing and through all kinds of things for you to 325 00:18:18,119 --> 00:18:19,760 Speaker 1: kind of snarple on the women or for you to 326 00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:22,520 Speaker 1: know sort of like laugh at them if you so choose. 327 00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:26,400 Speaker 1: And so I actually think that Atlanta and Photomac wouldn't 328 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:28,400 Speaker 1: be on the air this long if white women weren't 329 00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:30,760 Speaker 1: watching those white white women and white men, Like it's 330 00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:32,399 Speaker 1: just that's just a fact, Like they wouldn't be on 331 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:35,439 Speaker 1: this scene that were the case. So I think that 332 00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:38,800 Speaker 1: there are different ways in some people watch it and 333 00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:41,480 Speaker 1: identify with the cast and root for various cast members. 334 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:44,439 Speaker 1: Some people sort of watch it to snarkle on the cast. 335 00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:47,040 Speaker 1: I mean, I think that what we see, especially with Atlanta, 336 00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:49,120 Speaker 1: and I think that the sort of popularity of Nanny 337 00:18:49,240 --> 00:18:51,639 Speaker 1: Lakes during the show and post show, it's sort of 338 00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:55,000 Speaker 1: evidence of the fact that it's sort of like culturally 339 00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:58,280 Speaker 1: specific of a cast member. As she is, she has 340 00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:02,719 Speaker 1: wide ranging appeal and lots of people connect with her 341 00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:06,520 Speaker 1: for all kinds of all kinds of different reasons. M Yeah. 342 00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:08,920 Speaker 1: And you know when you think about, like, like you said, 343 00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:11,680 Speaker 1: like Potomac just premiered, like the new season, and so 344 00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:14,639 Speaker 1: I feel like there is a distinct difference between like 345 00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:18,280 Speaker 1: the first season of Potomac and the second season. Can 346 00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:21,639 Speaker 1: you say more about like those differences. Yeah, I just 347 00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:23,880 Speaker 1: think Potomac is the best of this I just think 348 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:25,600 Speaker 1: it's the best of the franchise at this point. Like 349 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:29,359 Speaker 1: I don't even feel like that's debatable, but that's really Yeah. Okay, 350 00:19:29,359 --> 00:19:31,800 Speaker 1: I gotta hear you say more about what. Okay, here's 351 00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:33,760 Speaker 1: what I think is great about Potomac. I think the 352 00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:36,840 Speaker 1: first of all, Potomac is super culturally specific. I mean, 353 00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:39,359 Speaker 1: you can have a black cast show that is not 354 00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:44,080 Speaker 1: culturally specific to black people, right. So for me, I 355 00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:47,480 Speaker 1: love Potomac because it's rooted in a place like it's 356 00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:49,479 Speaker 1: rooted in like the d m V area, right, like 357 00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:52,520 Speaker 1: in DC, Maryland, Virginia. Right, those women have history that 358 00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:54,600 Speaker 1: they weren't all flown in, you know. I mean, I 359 00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:57,679 Speaker 1: think about Atlanta when Kenya Moore sort of joins the 360 00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:00,000 Speaker 1: cast and she's great on the show, but it's all 361 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:02,320 Speaker 1: are really clear that she was cast and she moves 362 00:20:02,359 --> 00:20:05,120 Speaker 1: to Atlanta to film the show, and that's different than 363 00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:08,600 Speaker 1: somebody who grew up somewhere or somebody who's lived there 364 00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:10,800 Speaker 1: and made a home there. Right. I also think that 365 00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:15,600 Speaker 1: Potomac has that great thing where the cast, some members 366 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:18,560 Speaker 1: of the cast, they've known each other since before the show, 367 00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:21,600 Speaker 1: that they jell, they have history, right. You know. I'm 368 00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:25,840 Speaker 1: so fascinated by like Karen and Giselle's relationship because you know, 369 00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:28,359 Speaker 1: when they fight, that feels real. That doesn't feel like 370 00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:32,080 Speaker 1: just some on the show stuff. That feels like years 371 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:36,040 Speaker 1: of whatever kinds of experiences that you know have led 372 00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:39,119 Speaker 1: to whatever tensions they have, and that always feels that 373 00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:42,240 Speaker 1: feels more organic to me then what I think happens 374 00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:43,840 Speaker 1: with some of the other shows in the cast are 375 00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:46,119 Speaker 1: kind of like cobbled together and they don't have history. 376 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:52,320 Speaker 1: I think knowing that potomas I believe that the producers 377 00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:54,800 Speaker 1: who work on Potoma, because each of the housewife shows 378 00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:57,680 Speaker 1: they have different production teams, it's not like one universal team. 379 00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:00,400 Speaker 1: Knowing that their producers are black, I think that there's 380 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:04,159 Speaker 1: a different handling of certain material than you see sometimes 381 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:06,600 Speaker 1: on like other shows, like I just think Pto Beca 382 00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:08,920 Speaker 1: is so great, and I think each of the women 383 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:11,560 Speaker 1: is there are such strong cast members on their own. 384 00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:15,920 Speaker 1: They have such interesting dynamics between them. Yeah, I just 385 00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:18,040 Speaker 1: think it's fascinating. But you you asked about like the 386 00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:20,320 Speaker 1: first season to the second, right, that was the original 387 00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:23,800 Speaker 1: question where I went off on that tangent. All right, Yeah, 388 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:26,160 Speaker 1: I mean I think what you see with Potomac, it's 389 00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:28,560 Speaker 1: sort of like it's analogous to what happens with all 390 00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:30,760 Speaker 1: of these shows. Right Like the first season, I think 391 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:34,560 Speaker 1: they're everyone, the cast and the producers, Everyone's trying to 392 00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:36,440 Speaker 1: figure out what the show is going to be. There's 393 00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:38,679 Speaker 1: like a lot of exposition. There's an emphasis on whatever 394 00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:41,240 Speaker 1: the pitch was, whatever the theme is, right, you see 395 00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:43,480 Speaker 1: that in something. I mean this is not black Women obviously, 396 00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:46,239 Speaker 1: but like Jersey Shore, right, Like a Jersey Shore is 397 00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:48,800 Speaker 1: pitched as this is going to be this show about 398 00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:52,960 Speaker 1: Italian Americans at the shore. That first season it's like, yes, 399 00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:55,480 Speaker 1: all they're talking about, you know, but that's also likely 400 00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:57,760 Speaker 1: all the producers are asking them about is how do 401 00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:00,720 Speaker 1: you feel about what what does being a guido mean 402 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:03,399 Speaker 1: to you? Right? Because that's like the focus. It's the 403 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:06,320 Speaker 1: second season where everyone's kind of settled in a little bit. 404 00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:08,879 Speaker 1: But also I think when the first season is aired 405 00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:12,240 Speaker 1: and they've seen themselves on television, that now you have 406 00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:16,040 Speaker 1: this slightly different engagement. It's a horrible analogy, but I 407 00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:18,560 Speaker 1: was thinking like Terminator too, there's this moment where they 408 00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:21,080 Speaker 1: talk about when the machines became self aware, Like that's 409 00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:23,560 Speaker 1: what kind of happens in the second season of a 410 00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:25,600 Speaker 1: reality show is they're like, oh, I need to go 411 00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:27,679 Speaker 1: get a better We've like, oh I need to get 412 00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:30,119 Speaker 1: a better wardrobe, I need a glad team. But also 413 00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:34,119 Speaker 1: I need to think very carefully about what I'm doing 414 00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:37,280 Speaker 1: on camera, what I'm presenting on camera, and how that's 415 00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:40,240 Speaker 1: gonna play. And I also think that by the second season, 416 00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:44,440 Speaker 1: the audience we have our understandings now who we think 417 00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:46,679 Speaker 1: the star of the show is right, and how we 418 00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:50,200 Speaker 1: understand personalities in certain dynamics. I mean, I always like 419 00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:51,720 Speaker 1: the first season of the show, but to me, the 420 00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:54,840 Speaker 1: second season is like really where things start to get cooking. Yeah, 421 00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:56,480 Speaker 1: like when you really really kind of get to meet 422 00:22:56,480 --> 00:23:00,840 Speaker 1: the gas like real stories. Yeah, yeah, yeah. More from 423 00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:13,520 Speaker 1: my conversation with Dr Gates after the Breaks. Another popular 424 00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:16,000 Speaker 1: you know, kind of type of reality show are like 425 00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:20,000 Speaker 1: these dating love kinds of shows. It does feel like 426 00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:22,520 Speaker 1: there is like a particular kind of black women that 427 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:26,280 Speaker 1: typically is cast for these shows. So I just love 428 00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:28,239 Speaker 1: to hear your thoughts about, like, you know, are you 429 00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:31,560 Speaker 1: seeing the same kind of thing? Are are there varieties 430 00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:33,879 Speaker 1: in terms of like people who are cast? Well, what 431 00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:35,960 Speaker 1: shows in particular are you thinking about when you're talking 432 00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:38,440 Speaker 1: about the dating shows, like like two kinds of handle 433 00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:42,439 Speaker 1: love is blind? Well the Bachelor, you know, that's a 434 00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:46,680 Speaker 1: whole kind of thing like that kind of show, right, Right, 435 00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:49,159 Speaker 1: dating shows are not like not the thing that like 436 00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:51,960 Speaker 1: let me on fire in terms of a reality TV fan, 437 00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:54,560 Speaker 1: But what is what I think is interesting about the 438 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:57,520 Speaker 1: dating shows, right, is we tend to talk a lot 439 00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:01,320 Speaker 1: about reality TV in terms of like the content, what's 440 00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:04,200 Speaker 1: in front of the camera, right, instead of thinking about 441 00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:07,320 Speaker 1: networks and thinking about audiences and things like that. What's 442 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:10,360 Speaker 1: interesting to me about like the Bachelor and whatever has 443 00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:13,920 Speaker 1: been happening for the past couple of years with discussions 444 00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:16,280 Speaker 1: about blackness and the Bachelor is there isn't as much 445 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:19,480 Speaker 1: of a discussion about, well, who's the audience for the Bachelor, right, Like, 446 00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:22,919 Speaker 1: there's all of this kind of cleata black bachelor, but 447 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:25,600 Speaker 1: the woman he loves, like did some weird racist patch 448 00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:28,639 Speaker 1: and whatever that start. But but but to me, it 449 00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:32,879 Speaker 1: felt really clear that you can cast a black person. 450 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:37,240 Speaker 1: But if, for instance, you're casting questionnaires never changed, if 451 00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:40,480 Speaker 1: your approach to casting is the same, this wouldn't have 452 00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:42,120 Speaker 1: been I mean, I don't want to say it would 453 00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:44,200 Speaker 1: have been issue, It wouldn't matter. But had the Bachelor 454 00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:46,639 Speaker 1: been white, and I'm assuming that for the one black 455 00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:50,840 Speaker 1: bachelor they picked the other four you know possible bachelors 456 00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:53,440 Speaker 1: were white dudes, right, this wouldn't have been this would 457 00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:55,360 Speaker 1: have made it to air, This would have been an issue. Right, 458 00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:59,520 Speaker 1: And so I think that when you're talking about, for instance, 459 00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:04,679 Speaker 1: like lotting black women into that formula, Like the formula 460 00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:06,960 Speaker 1: is the formula, and so you're going to get a 461 00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:11,679 Speaker 1: specific type of black women because they're not necessarily like 462 00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:14,919 Speaker 1: they're not interested in in I mean, diversity is a 463 00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:17,160 Speaker 1: tricky word anyway, right, as we've learned this past year, 464 00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:20,800 Speaker 1: but I mean not interested necessarily in like a diversity 465 00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:24,760 Speaker 1: of black women, right. They're interested in like a phenotypically 466 00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:29,160 Speaker 1: black body to slot into whatever they wanted for that show. 467 00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:32,280 Speaker 1: And I think dating shows tend to be much more 468 00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:35,800 Speaker 1: formulaic than I mean, I think dating shows. I think 469 00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:38,119 Speaker 1: any kind of competitive reality show is really what I 470 00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:41,800 Speaker 1: would say, like competitive reality dating shows, but all stuff 471 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:46,439 Speaker 1: like Survive or The Amazing Race versus candid reality shows 472 00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:48,960 Speaker 1: like Real Housewives, Love and Hip Hop. I think that 473 00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:51,720 Speaker 1: the competitive reality shows tend to be much more formulaic, 474 00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:56,159 Speaker 1: and they tend to cast for type quite much more often. 475 00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:58,199 Speaker 1: And so I don't think it's ever really surprising that 476 00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:02,399 Speaker 1: you see the same recurring over and over and over again. 477 00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:05,119 Speaker 1: Mm hmmm. Yeah. I want to kind of stick with 478 00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:08,199 Speaker 1: your point around like really thinking about like the different 479 00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:11,320 Speaker 1: networks and like who their audiences are. When you mentioned 480 00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:13,480 Speaker 1: this idea, of the Bravo wink, right, like that we're 481 00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:16,040 Speaker 1: kind of positioned to side with the producer. And you 482 00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:18,920 Speaker 1: mentioned that you feel like that's very different from what 483 00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:20,800 Speaker 1: we would see on the Love and hip Hop. But 484 00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:24,640 Speaker 1: I'm also aware that it feels like the own network 485 00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:28,240 Speaker 1: is has developed a different kind of like slate of 486 00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:31,199 Speaker 1: reality TV. I love to hear your thoughts, maybe just 487 00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:33,800 Speaker 1: about the differences between like what we see on you 488 00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:36,360 Speaker 1: know which network. Yeah, I'm trying to which which owned 489 00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:38,800 Speaker 1: shows in particular are you thinking of, Because so there's 490 00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:41,760 Speaker 1: put a ring on it Ready to Love, which I 491 00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:44,600 Speaker 1: think is an interesting dating show to me, the people 492 00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:46,240 Speaker 1: who are on that show are very different than what 493 00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:48,639 Speaker 1: you would see on a Too Hot to Handle. Also, 494 00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:53,359 Speaker 1: what are the other ones? Loving? Loving Marriage Huntsville? Right, 495 00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:54,840 Speaker 1: So it's kind of in the vein of like a 496 00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:58,280 Speaker 1: Real Housewives, Love and hip Hop, but not quite the same. So, yeah, 497 00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:00,200 Speaker 1: so that's their slate. I mean, so there's a couple 498 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:03,679 Speaker 1: of things I think that different networks have just they 499 00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:06,000 Speaker 1: just have different approaches to things, right, and so, like 500 00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:08,639 Speaker 1: I mean, I always compare Bravo and VH one, and 501 00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:11,439 Speaker 1: I compare those two very often because they both have 502 00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:14,720 Speaker 1: this kind of like late night soap opera like thing 503 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:17,560 Speaker 1: that they right, And the Bravo does that with the shows, 504 00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:19,840 Speaker 1: and vh one does that with it shows too, And 505 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:22,480 Speaker 1: to me, those are easy comparisons because you can see 506 00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:25,040 Speaker 1: the tonal differences because so much other stuff is sort 507 00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:27,000 Speaker 1: of similar, right, And what I mean by that is, 508 00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:28,800 Speaker 1: so you have the Bravo wink, you have a thing 509 00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:32,600 Speaker 1: where it's there's a clip from Potomac where where Wendy is. 510 00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:35,800 Speaker 1: She's like, she's just had like breast augmentation surgery, and 511 00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:38,360 Speaker 1: so she's going to the doctor for check up. She's 512 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:41,120 Speaker 1: talking about that she had a breast done, but they 513 00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:44,280 Speaker 1: cut to like a producer saying, have you had any 514 00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:46,000 Speaker 1: other work done? And she's like, if I did, I 515 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:48,080 Speaker 1: tell you. They cut back to the scene and then 516 00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:51,560 Speaker 1: the camera scans down to her stomach and the clear 517 00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:54,399 Speaker 1: implication is that she's had a tummy tuck, right, And 518 00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:58,720 Speaker 1: that's the that's production kind of winking at us the 519 00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:00,720 Speaker 1: audience saying, you know, she's not telling the truth, right, Like, 520 00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:03,960 Speaker 1: that's what that is, right, Um, this is all unbeknownst 521 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:07,480 Speaker 1: to her, right, she has no clue, right like that, 522 00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:10,800 Speaker 1: This is the kind of communication that's happening between sort 523 00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:14,919 Speaker 1: of like production and audience. H one. By contrast, to me, 524 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:18,439 Speaker 1: the tone of H one is is earnestness. So, you know, 525 00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:20,560 Speaker 1: I think a lot about I think it's the first 526 00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:22,640 Speaker 1: season of Love and Hip Hop Atlanta where we got 527 00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:26,440 Speaker 1: introduced to like Stevie J and Mimi and Johnson Hernandez, 528 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:30,080 Speaker 1: and she Johnson Hernandez takes a pregnancy test, you know, 529 00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:32,400 Speaker 1: like in a bathroom style, and the camera comes with her, 530 00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:35,679 Speaker 1: and people have talked about like, oh, that's ridiculous that 531 00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:38,400 Speaker 1: she did that on camera, But what I'm always fascinated 532 00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:41,480 Speaker 1: in is the camera work in that scene. The camera 533 00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:45,040 Speaker 1: is focused on her face and it's just this beautiful 534 00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:48,400 Speaker 1: close up where she looks beautiful, but she also looks fragile, 535 00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:52,000 Speaker 1: and she looks like, you know, like anguished and sad, 536 00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:54,160 Speaker 1: and it's so close that you can see the tears 537 00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:58,120 Speaker 1: coming down, right. It's this moment that the camera is 538 00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:01,000 Speaker 1: making us, the audience, making us if you were identify 539 00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:03,360 Speaker 1: with her and connect with her. And for me, that's 540 00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:06,600 Speaker 1: always been this powerful moment because when I pop culture, 541 00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:08,720 Speaker 1: are we ever asked to feel sympathy for the side 542 00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:11,280 Speaker 1: chick when are we ever asked to sort of identify 543 00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:14,560 Speaker 1: with the woman who's like sleeping with this guy who 544 00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:17,520 Speaker 1: clearly has a long term you know, girlfriend and partner, right, 545 00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:20,960 Speaker 1: And so that feels really powerful to me. I think that, like, 546 00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:23,200 Speaker 1: if we were thinking about the shows on OWN, that's 547 00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:25,640 Speaker 1: a different demographic as well, right, I mean, I'd have 548 00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:28,920 Speaker 1: to sort of check the numbers, but I'd be curious 549 00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:31,720 Speaker 1: about the age demographic, right, I'd be curious about who 550 00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:34,040 Speaker 1: they envisioned their audience to be, and there for what 551 00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:35,760 Speaker 1: are the issues? I mean, I think, you know, the 552 00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:39,560 Speaker 1: fact that it's focused on marriage instead of relationships suggests 553 00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:42,680 Speaker 1: a slightly older audience than what you might what the 554 00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:44,640 Speaker 1: assumption is from v H one, right, which has to 555 00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:48,080 Speaker 1: capture people from like eighteen to forty, right, Whereas I 556 00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:51,160 Speaker 1: think that OWN. I don't quote me on this, this 557 00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:53,800 Speaker 1: is just this is my guess, right, But like, but 558 00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:56,720 Speaker 1: they sew a little bit older, right, But I think 559 00:29:56,760 --> 00:29:59,640 Speaker 1: that that tone of earnestness is still very much a 560 00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:02,360 Speaker 1: part of how OWN does this, and part like that's 561 00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:06,400 Speaker 1: also the reputation of you know, of the network, um, right, 562 00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:09,480 Speaker 1: And so I for me, it's really interesting to think 563 00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:14,840 Speaker 1: about how things like that like shape the shows, shape 564 00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:18,600 Speaker 1: how we view the shows even as viewers, right, Like 565 00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:21,240 Speaker 1: what are we expecting to see if we know something's 566 00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:25,320 Speaker 1: on v H one versus own versus Lifetime versus MTV, Right, 567 00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:28,000 Speaker 1: Like we come to it perhaps with different you know, 568 00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:32,520 Speaker 1: sort of reading strategies. Mm hmmmmmmm. You know. So one 569 00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:36,400 Speaker 1: of the major critiques of reality TV, I think specifically 570 00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:39,320 Speaker 1: as we think about like black cast members, is this 571 00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:43,520 Speaker 1: idea of representation about like, oh, what do white people 572 00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:46,600 Speaker 1: think when they see black women fighting on TV? Right? 573 00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:49,080 Speaker 1: And so they're still like the centering of the white days, 574 00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:51,880 Speaker 1: And I think, you know, the argument can be made that, 575 00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:54,080 Speaker 1: Like I think a lot of like black projects have 576 00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:56,920 Speaker 1: this burden, it feels like, right, like to kind of 577 00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:00,000 Speaker 1: speak for the entire race, can you talk a little 578 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:02,400 Speaker 1: a bit about I mean, I think that what we 579 00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:06,560 Speaker 1: see with reality television is this intensive eyed discourse that's 580 00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:10,280 Speaker 1: really been happening since the dawn of cinema. Like, whenever 581 00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:14,760 Speaker 1: we have talked about the black image in popular culture period, 582 00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:18,320 Speaker 1: the burden of representation is always the discourse, right, Like 583 00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:20,720 Speaker 1: the politics of representation is always the thing that we're 584 00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:22,800 Speaker 1: talking about, right, And to me, I think when you're 585 00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:25,280 Speaker 1: talking about pop culture, I think it's the wrong question, right, 586 00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:27,760 Speaker 1: because I think it's what what it does is it 587 00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:31,240 Speaker 1: narrows down the possibilities, right. It takes a few things 588 00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:33,520 Speaker 1: for granted that I would actually push back against. One. 589 00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:36,720 Speaker 1: It would it's that people enjoy things because they identify 590 00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:40,200 Speaker 1: with it. The second sort of assumption is that television 591 00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:43,800 Speaker 1: and pop culture serves it's like a role model type 592 00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:46,000 Speaker 1: of thing, where like you see it and you want 593 00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:49,600 Speaker 1: to imitate it, which has never been proven true. Like anywhere, 594 00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:52,400 Speaker 1: these are always like the underlying assumptions, and so if 595 00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:56,040 Speaker 1: you start with those as presumed facts, that leads you 596 00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:58,760 Speaker 1: down a really narrow path, right, which is like what 597 00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:01,840 Speaker 1: is this good or bad? Or black people? And there's 598 00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:05,200 Speaker 1: I think like kind of a deboisan double consciousness, right, 599 00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:07,320 Speaker 1: which is, well, how does this make us look? And 600 00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:10,440 Speaker 1: the implicit thing is like well to home? Right. I 601 00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:14,040 Speaker 1: think when you're able to sort of cast that aside 602 00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:17,840 Speaker 1: a bit as a consideration, I'm not saying that that's irrelevant. 603 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:21,360 Speaker 1: That is a dominant way of analyzing media. I think 604 00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:24,240 Speaker 1: it's faulty because I think there's so many other things 605 00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:28,800 Speaker 1: to attend to besides like the politics of representation, which 606 00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:33,320 Speaker 1: most media studies scholars challenge anyway, Like, we don't think 607 00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:37,080 Speaker 1: that media works that way, and we certainly don't subscribe 608 00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:39,440 Speaker 1: to what some people call a media effects argument, which 609 00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:42,440 Speaker 1: is that like media makes people do things. There's the 610 00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:45,080 Speaker 1: example that I've I've used, you know, a bunch of times, 611 00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:47,760 Speaker 1: is you know scenes where people fight. Right, There's a 612 00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:51,479 Speaker 1: scene and from Basketball Wives where Evelyn Lozatta gets so 613 00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:54,640 Speaker 1: angry with someone that she like jumps up runs across 614 00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:57,360 Speaker 1: a dining table to attack this woman. And it's like 615 00:32:57,480 --> 00:32:59,840 Speaker 1: jumps off the table and goes out. It's insane. And 616 00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:03,080 Speaker 1: I remember when that air and people said, well, if 617 00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:06,200 Speaker 1: little girls see this, they'll think that's okay. And that's 618 00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:10,160 Speaker 1: kind of like a logical leap isn't really grounded exactly 619 00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:12,200 Speaker 1: in anything, right, And what I would say is, well, 620 00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:14,080 Speaker 1: why do we read it that way as opposed to fantasy, 621 00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:16,960 Speaker 1: as opposed to emotional catharsis right? Maybe you don't watch 622 00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:19,520 Speaker 1: that and you're gonna like go out and like run 623 00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:22,480 Speaker 1: across the table, but maybe you identify really strongly with 624 00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:25,520 Speaker 1: that feeling when you're sitting at dinner and someone's jabbing 625 00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:27,320 Speaker 1: at you and then make a little comments and like 626 00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:29,360 Speaker 1: you're trying to hold it together, but you feel like 627 00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:31,280 Speaker 1: you could explode, which I think is that feeling like 628 00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:33,800 Speaker 1: a lot of black women have had in their workplaces 629 00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:38,080 Speaker 1: and in different stressful So you know, there's something pleasurable 630 00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:42,479 Speaker 1: about seeing somebody who has no bearing on your life 631 00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:45,040 Speaker 1: be able to do that thing that you kind of 632 00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:48,959 Speaker 1: secretly wish that maybe you could do, right, And so 633 00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:50,480 Speaker 1: that's how I read a lot of that stuff. I 634 00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:54,040 Speaker 1: also think that, uh, the criticism of reality TV tends 635 00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:57,560 Speaker 1: to focus on the most salacious moments and never on 636 00:33:57,800 --> 00:33:59,880 Speaker 1: the quieter moments, which are the things that I act 637 00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:04,440 Speaker 1: really think connect with fans more often. M hmmm. So yeah, 638 00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:18,480 Speaker 1: more from Dr Gates after the break. So I'm really 639 00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:21,400 Speaker 1: glad you share their doctor gains because I hear that 640 00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:23,040 Speaker 1: argument all the time. But of course I'm not a 641 00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:26,120 Speaker 1: media scholar, so I thought there was some truth to 642 00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:29,120 Speaker 1: this idea of media effects, right, like that people imitate 643 00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:31,400 Speaker 1: kind of what they see. So where do that come from? 644 00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:33,880 Speaker 1: I think there's a couple of things. I'm sure that 645 00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:36,960 Speaker 1: they're sort of a different strain of media studies scholars 646 00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:40,240 Speaker 1: from more based in like psychology and sort of calm 647 00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:43,359 Speaker 1: studies who might make that argument, right, And I don't 648 00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:46,600 Speaker 1: think that that argument is inaccurate, But I don't think 649 00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:49,520 Speaker 1: it's accurate for this particular type of media, right, Like, 650 00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:53,720 Speaker 1: do I believe that you can see so much violent 651 00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:56,960 Speaker 1: content that you become desensitized to seeing violence? Sure? Right? 652 00:34:56,960 --> 00:34:59,360 Speaker 1: Like that's media effects argument. Right. Do I think that 653 00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:02,280 Speaker 1: if you sit and watch Evelyn Lazat to run across 654 00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:04,640 Speaker 1: the table, that suddenly you're gonna lose all your good 655 00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:07,640 Speaker 1: sense the next time you haven't an arguing with somebody, No, 656 00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:10,399 Speaker 1: of course not right, That's just silly. So I think 657 00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:14,800 Speaker 1: that what happens is that gets applied across the board. 658 00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:20,640 Speaker 1: And I also think it underneath it is a lack 659 00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:27,279 Speaker 1: of credit being given to the presumably like black audiences 660 00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:29,359 Speaker 1: who are watching these shows. And I think you see 661 00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:32,359 Speaker 1: that across all types of sort of art stuff, right, 662 00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:35,799 Speaker 1: there's always this idea of like even literature, right, Well, 663 00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:39,040 Speaker 1: you can't let these people have access to this thing, right, 664 00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:41,600 Speaker 1: I mean, this happens, you know. I'm thinking of scholar 665 00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:45,600 Speaker 1: Kathy Davidson's work about sort of the attention um and 666 00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:49,040 Speaker 1: the anxiety around the development of the printing press, because 667 00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:50,840 Speaker 1: there was this idea that, like, you can't just have 668 00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:53,759 Speaker 1: literature and news be widely accessible. What do you do 669 00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:56,360 Speaker 1: with these uneducated masses. You can't just let them have 670 00:35:56,520 --> 00:36:00,600 Speaker 1: access to information? Right, It's that same idea that some 671 00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:05,360 Speaker 1: people cannot handle, you know, access to content. I also 672 00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:09,920 Speaker 1: think that that you know, when we're talking about black people, right, 673 00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:14,040 Speaker 1: I think that we understandably because of the history of film, 674 00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:16,440 Speaker 1: because of the history of television and the ways that 675 00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:19,480 Speaker 1: those are connected to racism and racist imagery, that we 676 00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:24,799 Speaker 1: have a healthy suspicion of what these images do. Right. Like, 677 00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:27,120 Speaker 1: we know that d W. Griffiths film The Birth of 678 00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:29,080 Speaker 1: a Nation was used as a recruitment tool for the Clad. 679 00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:32,800 Speaker 1: We know that, right, But there's a distinction between using 680 00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:35,640 Speaker 1: a film as a recruitment tool and thinking that showing 681 00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:38,200 Speaker 1: people that film is the thing that made them racist, 682 00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:41,400 Speaker 1: and and that's not the same thing. I think we 683 00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:44,520 Speaker 1: have to be really careful when we talk about how 684 00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:48,840 Speaker 1: people engage with media, because our real life experience is 685 00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:52,000 Speaker 1: nothing like what those critiques say, right. And I've I've 686 00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:55,839 Speaker 1: heard this before. We're somewhere someone has said, well, you're 687 00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:58,840 Speaker 1: you're a professor you understand this. I'm like, you can't 688 00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:02,319 Speaker 1: point to any that you know or have experienced who 689 00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:05,480 Speaker 1: has imitated a thing they've seen on reality TV. Right, 690 00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:08,879 Speaker 1: There's not some young promising girl on the South side 691 00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:11,200 Speaker 1: of Chicago where I'm from who was like about to 692 00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:13,600 Speaker 1: go off to college on a scholarship, but then she 693 00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:17,480 Speaker 1: watched Basketball wives. It's just they treated like it's reefer madness, 694 00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:19,440 Speaker 1: you know what I mean, like this sort of paranoia 695 00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:22,840 Speaker 1: around these things that are going to ruin black people. 696 00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:27,040 Speaker 1: I think that there's very valid concerns about black representation, 697 00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:30,799 Speaker 1: particularly brown black women's representation. But I also think that's 698 00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:34,160 Speaker 1: a that's that's one lens, and there's multiple lenses with 699 00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:36,640 Speaker 1: which we can be viewing these shows and talking about 700 00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:41,480 Speaker 1: these shows. Mm hmmm. So in addition to Put homeg 701 00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:43,400 Speaker 1: what are some of the other shows that you are 702 00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:47,280 Speaker 1: really loving and is there anything that you're excited to see, 703 00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:50,520 Speaker 1: like somebody who has done something really different with reality 704 00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:53,760 Speaker 1: TV that you enjoy? I mean, I gotta be honest, 705 00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:57,799 Speaker 1: like this past year, all of my viewing has just 706 00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:02,560 Speaker 1: been shot because I've my my our five year old 707 00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:05,400 Speaker 1: twin boys. They were home from school for like a 708 00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:07,680 Speaker 1: really really long time. There was not a whole lot 709 00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:09,960 Speaker 1: of viewing that was happening, except for like Disney films. 710 00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:14,799 Speaker 1: But I love Potomac like I love Potomac. I love 711 00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:17,520 Speaker 1: all the Real Housewives shows, although I this year has 712 00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:19,719 Speaker 1: been a weird time, and I think partly because of 713 00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:23,680 Speaker 1: like COVID production things that have made filming kind of bizarre, 714 00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:26,480 Speaker 1: but also because they all are kind of trying to 715 00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:33,479 Speaker 1: deal with racism and these very course inelegant ways, which 716 00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:37,680 Speaker 1: which doesn't always make for the viewing. I I was 717 00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:41,880 Speaker 1: a huge, huge fan of Mob Wives when it was 718 00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:44,160 Speaker 1: on in like two thousand and two thousand and eleven. 719 00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:46,759 Speaker 1: I thought it was one of the like the first 720 00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:48,640 Speaker 1: two seasons of that show. I will always say if 721 00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:51,920 Speaker 1: some of the best television I've ever seen, scripted or unscripted. 722 00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:54,320 Speaker 1: I just thought it was an amazing show. I was 723 00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:56,399 Speaker 1: really into Jersey Shore for a very, very long time 724 00:38:56,440 --> 00:38:59,080 Speaker 1: and still keep up with Jersey Shore. What am I 725 00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:02,960 Speaker 1: excited about on Horizon? I'm kind of excited. This is 726 00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:06,920 Speaker 1: like a broad comment. I feel like we're at this 727 00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:10,719 Speaker 1: moment where reality TV has gotten very meta. You know, 728 00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:12,840 Speaker 1: it's not just the Real Housewives shows. Now we have 729 00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:14,719 Speaker 1: the All Stars Real Housewives Show, which is going to 730 00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:18,120 Speaker 1: air sometime soon, right, Like we have that, we have 731 00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:24,520 Speaker 1: shows that are like very self referential, where we're talking 732 00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:27,080 Speaker 1: about the show as a show. And we've seen that 733 00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:29,000 Speaker 1: on a bunch of things white shows and black shows, 734 00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:32,520 Speaker 1: where they talk about production as part of you know, 735 00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:34,799 Speaker 1: as part of the show. I mean Atlanta was like that, 736 00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:38,080 Speaker 1: right this season with the bachelorette party and portion who 737 00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:40,319 Speaker 1: slept with a stripper who didn't write this whole so 738 00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:43,080 Speaker 1: much of the storyline was about, hey, we thought we 739 00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:46,359 Speaker 1: weren't filming right, and we have an understanding for what 740 00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:48,600 Speaker 1: it means when we're not filming right and ken you 741 00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:52,399 Speaker 1: you broke. I mean that's fascinating to me. I wish 742 00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:54,080 Speaker 1: I had specific shows, I said, I was excited, but 743 00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:56,960 Speaker 1: like that as a thing that is a thing is 744 00:39:57,040 --> 00:40:00,440 Speaker 1: fascinating because my question is, well, then where do we 745 00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:03,040 Speaker 1: go from that point? If we're at the point where 746 00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:07,120 Speaker 1: the shows are now about themselves, the show is very 747 00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:11,239 Speaker 1: much about filming the show, Like Kardashians, is that right, 748 00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:15,120 Speaker 1: it's this is their last season. The whole season is 749 00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:17,440 Speaker 1: like and we didn't know how to tell the producers 750 00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:18,880 Speaker 1: and so here are the producer, and we had them 751 00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:20,799 Speaker 1: on and let's watch the old footage. I mean, it 752 00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:24,000 Speaker 1: feels to me like we are at this moment where 753 00:40:24,120 --> 00:40:27,400 Speaker 1: something is going to radically shift, because like where do 754 00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:30,879 Speaker 1: you go from here? And so I feel like where, 755 00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:33,200 Speaker 1: you know, I've said, you know, in sort of other 756 00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:36,359 Speaker 1: places that I would rather refer to reality TV as 757 00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:38,879 Speaker 1: a mode rather than a genre, like it's a way 758 00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:41,839 Speaker 1: of engaging, it's a you know, um because there's such 759 00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:46,279 Speaker 1: a diversity within reality TV. The genre seems like, you know, 760 00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:49,560 Speaker 1: like to sell it short. I think I'm curious to 761 00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:52,520 Speaker 1: see like where this is headed now, you know, when 762 00:40:52,520 --> 00:40:55,919 Speaker 1: we're at the point where, you know, a magazine like 763 00:40:56,680 --> 00:41:00,799 Speaker 1: US Weekly is it's mainly reality show ours and there 764 00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:03,600 Speaker 1: those are the celebrities and the blurring of the line 765 00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:07,440 Speaker 1: between who is a quote unquote legitimate celebrity versus who 766 00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:10,880 Speaker 1: is a reality celebrity feels like what do you do 767 00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:13,080 Speaker 1: with Bethany Frankel? What do you do with me Nie Leaks? 768 00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:16,839 Speaker 1: Like what do I mean? My dad knew who these 769 00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:21,160 Speaker 1: folks are, you know what, people who have never watched 770 00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:23,640 Speaker 1: the shows don't know who they are. So I think 771 00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:28,240 Speaker 1: we're at this really kind of fascinating moment in terms 772 00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:31,680 Speaker 1: of sort of seeing the collapse of high culture and 773 00:41:31,719 --> 00:41:35,279 Speaker 1: low culture and different forms of celebrity. You know, we 774 00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:39,480 Speaker 1: just came off a presidency of a reality TV cast member, 775 00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:42,640 Speaker 1: when we had the kind of big slate of Democratic 776 00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:46,160 Speaker 1: candidates and Bernie Sanders had Cardi B doing videos with it. 777 00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:48,240 Speaker 1: You know, it was like this moment where I thought, 778 00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:51,200 Speaker 1: are we still don pretend like reality TV doesn't matter? Right? 779 00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:53,439 Speaker 1: Because we got one Reality TV dude in the White 780 00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:55,759 Speaker 1: House and we have Cardi B from Love and Hip 781 00:41:55,800 --> 00:42:00,200 Speaker 1: Hop like essentially campaigning right for Bernie Sanders. Like this, 782 00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:03,840 Speaker 1: something has changed, something has shifted. So I don't know. 783 00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:07,080 Speaker 1: I'm just curious to see what happens at this point 784 00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:11,279 Speaker 1: because I have like no predictions honestly, right right, And 785 00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:13,880 Speaker 1: it seems like, you know, with the rides and social media, 786 00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:17,319 Speaker 1: like you know, people on TikTok are like amassing like 787 00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:19,160 Speaker 1: some of the same numbers as a show on a 788 00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:21,799 Speaker 1: v H one, right, you know. So it to me 789 00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:24,680 Speaker 1: is interesting that it almost seems like the new wave 790 00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:27,600 Speaker 1: of reality TV so to speak, might be existing like 791 00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:29,719 Speaker 1: in a place like tikto I mean, I think we 792 00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:33,319 Speaker 1: also are in this moment where even our understandings of 793 00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:36,880 Speaker 1: what constitutes media has changed. Like when we say TV, like, 794 00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:39,319 Speaker 1: what are we talk I mean, especially thinking about what's 795 00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:42,120 Speaker 1: happened during COVID, right. I mean, there's two strains we 796 00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:44,560 Speaker 1: can think about. One is the fact that social media 797 00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:47,520 Speaker 1: has become so prominent that most of the beefs that 798 00:42:47,560 --> 00:42:50,120 Speaker 1: are happening on these reality TV shows like originating on 799 00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:52,160 Speaker 1: social media somewhere and the show's happening that they have 800 00:42:52,239 --> 00:42:55,680 Speaker 1: to show screenshots of like Twitter and people's d m s, 801 00:42:55,719 --> 00:42:58,080 Speaker 1: and you know, like and that those are things that 802 00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:00,200 Speaker 1: people are leaking, and then the producers are like, rap, 803 00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:02,279 Speaker 1: we gotta pull that into the show now, right, Like, 804 00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:05,360 Speaker 1: but they also I think they also expect that we 805 00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:09,080 Speaker 1: as viewers were totally on Porscheaus Instagram and we totally 806 00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:12,920 Speaker 1: saw that, Like they know that we know, and you know, 807 00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:15,359 Speaker 1: they can't just they're reacting to stuff. Now. They can't 808 00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:17,440 Speaker 1: just control, they can't just throw out the story and 809 00:43:17,480 --> 00:43:19,160 Speaker 1: expect us to buy it. We're like, no, no, no, 810 00:43:19,239 --> 00:43:21,239 Speaker 1: because I saw that they un followed each other, right, 811 00:43:21,239 --> 00:43:24,839 Speaker 1: and I know that happened to me soon. But I think, 812 00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:28,920 Speaker 1: as you point out the other thing, that's happened, particularly 813 00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:34,440 Speaker 1: within COVID, when you have production in film and television 814 00:43:35,160 --> 00:43:38,800 Speaker 1: grinding to a halt or being severely compromised because of 815 00:43:38,840 --> 00:43:41,600 Speaker 1: the pandemic, When you have the rise of TikTok, when 816 00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:44,160 Speaker 1: you have the rise of social media influencers, and now 817 00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:48,600 Speaker 1: we have this kind of additional breakdown, this additional blurring. Right, 818 00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:52,680 Speaker 1: you know, what, what is TV anymore? Is it like 819 00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:56,080 Speaker 1: me sitting in front of like my actual television that's 820 00:43:56,120 --> 00:43:59,359 Speaker 1: like wall mounted, or is it me or like with 821 00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:02,359 Speaker 1: my smart phone? Right? Like which one of those is 822 00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:04,279 Speaker 1: the medium? Which which one is the sort of the 823 00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:07,600 Speaker 1: dissemination of content? When you have I can't think of 824 00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:10,800 Speaker 1: her name, but a famous TikTok or who then is 825 00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:14,400 Speaker 1: on keeping up with the Kardashians as a friend of Courtney, 826 00:44:14,600 --> 00:44:17,680 Speaker 1: Like I don't and I have no idea who she is, 827 00:44:17,719 --> 00:44:19,440 Speaker 1: so I have to go to find out, right, Like 828 00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:22,239 Speaker 1: it's it's I think that what we're seeing is not 829 00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:24,880 Speaker 1: just shifts that are happening in terms of the content 830 00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:28,640 Speaker 1: that's on the shows, but even like the medium's right, Like, 831 00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:31,560 Speaker 1: is TV still going to be the thing? Are we 832 00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:34,200 Speaker 1: still gonna be tuning into eat or Bravo or whatever, 833 00:44:34,760 --> 00:44:38,279 Speaker 1: or are we going to be sort of primarily on 834 00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:42,799 Speaker 1: one of these social media or streaming platforms, right, you know, 835 00:44:43,040 --> 00:44:45,759 Speaker 1: I don't. I don't. It's a it's a weird As 836 00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:48,040 Speaker 1: a media studies scholar, it is a it's a weird time. 837 00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:53,200 Speaker 1: It's a exactly what it's weird, right, right? Okay, So 838 00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:55,759 Speaker 1: one last question before we wrap up, because I feel 839 00:44:55,760 --> 00:44:58,160 Speaker 1: like we could talk about this forever, as you were 840 00:44:58,200 --> 00:45:01,799 Speaker 1: talking earlier about like the sages that surrounded the Real 841 00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:05,640 Speaker 1: Housewives of Atlanta cas and I don't know enough about 842 00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:09,480 Speaker 1: like the positioning of what married to Medicine was, but 843 00:45:09,560 --> 00:45:13,279 Speaker 1: it almost feels like that was like an answer to like, 844 00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:15,440 Speaker 1: all these women aren't doing anything right, and so then 845 00:45:15,480 --> 00:45:18,840 Speaker 1: we cast these real housewives type I feel like women, 846 00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:22,640 Speaker 1: but they're actually you know, some of them are actually positions. Yeah, yeah, 847 00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:24,680 Speaker 1: So do you know anything about the positioning, Like do 848 00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:28,919 Speaker 1: you think that that was a response. I mean, look, 849 00:45:29,360 --> 00:45:31,960 Speaker 1: I don't work the Bravo, so I can't say I 850 00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:36,080 Speaker 1: know what. I can't say definitively if I had to guess, 851 00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:38,959 Speaker 1: when Real Housewives of Atlanta comes out, and it comes 852 00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:44,400 Speaker 1: out of two thousand, um and it comes out Basketball Wives, 853 00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:46,360 Speaker 1: which is not on Bravo, right, which is on VH 854 00:45:46,440 --> 00:45:48,680 Speaker 1: one Love and Hip Hop. They all get lumped together, 855 00:45:48,719 --> 00:45:51,200 Speaker 1: and you notice that when you start reading like newspaper 856 00:45:51,239 --> 00:45:52,880 Speaker 1: critiques and stuff like that, they just lump all of 857 00:45:52,880 --> 00:45:55,160 Speaker 1: them together, which is its own form of like kind 858 00:45:55,160 --> 00:45:59,120 Speaker 1: of racist, gendered like stereotyping, right, because real house side 859 00:45:59,120 --> 00:46:01,719 Speaker 1: Atlanta is a very different children basketball lives. But I 860 00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:04,000 Speaker 1: think that what happens is there's so much critique and 861 00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:07,359 Speaker 1: there's so much kind of you know, uproar about that. Yeah, 862 00:46:07,400 --> 00:46:09,840 Speaker 1: I absolutely think that married to medicine is supposed to 863 00:46:09,840 --> 00:46:12,640 Speaker 1: be like the corrective, right, or Okay, we're gonna show 864 00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:16,320 Speaker 1: professional black women or you know, or in women married 865 00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:19,960 Speaker 1: to two doctors and etcetera. It's interesting because a lot 866 00:46:20,040 --> 00:46:23,239 Speaker 1: of times I've also noticed like people use the same 867 00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:26,879 Speaker 1: stereotype around those women, which at some point like yeah, 868 00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:29,080 Speaker 1: maybe it's the cast, and maybe it's the production, or 869 00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:32,839 Speaker 1: maybe it's the audiences. Maybe there's this way where like 870 00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:36,560 Speaker 1: audiences are not ready to see black women in all 871 00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:39,319 Speaker 1: of their complexity, which means that you can be professional 872 00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:42,680 Speaker 1: and also be kind of messy sometimes, right, and like 873 00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:47,440 Speaker 1: that's that's being human. But I think that in the 874 00:46:47,480 --> 00:46:50,920 Speaker 1: realm of media, where black people and black women have 875 00:46:51,040 --> 00:46:55,960 Speaker 1: so often been portrayed as being inhuman or subhuman, human 876 00:46:56,040 --> 00:47:01,080 Speaker 1: doesn't feel like corrective enough, right. We want like clear Huxtable. 877 00:47:01,120 --> 00:47:04,320 Speaker 1: We want, you know, sort of the perfection of Olivia 878 00:47:04,360 --> 00:47:06,239 Speaker 1: Pope who never has the hair out of place, right, 879 00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:08,920 Speaker 1: And I think that it's an unfair standard. But I 880 00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:13,600 Speaker 1: also think we close ourselves as viewers off from something right, 881 00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:16,920 Speaker 1: which is sort of appreciating humanity and the humanity of 882 00:47:16,920 --> 00:47:18,880 Speaker 1: black women in all of its nuance and all of 883 00:47:18,880 --> 00:47:23,480 Speaker 1: its complexity. Mm hmmm. So, Dr Gates, what are some 884 00:47:23,520 --> 00:47:26,040 Speaker 1: of your favorite resources for anybody maybe who wants to 885 00:47:26,040 --> 00:47:28,000 Speaker 1: dig a little deeper into like all of the things 886 00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:32,239 Speaker 1: you've shared today. Oh goodness, let's see. So I write 887 00:47:32,239 --> 00:47:35,800 Speaker 1: about reality TV in my book which is called Double Negative, 888 00:47:35,920 --> 00:47:40,080 Speaker 1: The Black Image and Popular Culture. I recommend work by 889 00:47:40,360 --> 00:47:44,840 Speaker 1: scholar Christin Warner, who's who writes about reality TV and casting. 890 00:47:45,560 --> 00:47:52,240 Speaker 1: Also the work by scholars Lori Lett and Amanda Klein, 891 00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:56,000 Speaker 1: who write a lot about like reality TV in general. 892 00:47:56,000 --> 00:47:58,759 Speaker 1: Amanda Klin has a really fabulous new book about It's 893 00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:00,759 Speaker 1: a Cultural History of MTV you, which I think is 894 00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:04,680 Speaker 1: like pretty great. Alice Leppard has a fantastic piece about 895 00:48:04,880 --> 00:48:08,759 Speaker 1: the Kardashians and like capitalism and sisterhood. Those are I mean, 896 00:48:08,840 --> 00:48:10,800 Speaker 1: just I'm not forgetting a bunch of people. I'll be 897 00:48:10,840 --> 00:48:13,120 Speaker 1: mad at myself, but those are the people who come 898 00:48:13,160 --> 00:48:16,360 Speaker 1: to mind. Uh. Laura led and Susan Murray have a 899 00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:18,760 Speaker 1: have a textbook that I used to teach my reality 900 00:48:18,800 --> 00:48:22,240 Speaker 1: TV class and it's just a collection of fabulous essays 901 00:48:22,040 --> 00:48:25,359 Speaker 1: by fabulous reality TV scholars. So yeah, I love it. 902 00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:28,160 Speaker 1: Thank you for those And where can we find you? 903 00:48:28,160 --> 00:48:30,360 Speaker 1: You already mentioned your book, but what is your website 904 00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:33,360 Speaker 1: as well as any social media handles you'd like to share? Yeah, 905 00:48:33,520 --> 00:48:37,840 Speaker 1: so my website is www dot Roquell Gates dot com. 906 00:48:38,480 --> 00:48:42,600 Speaker 1: You can find me on Twitter, Instagram like at Raquel Gates. 907 00:48:42,719 --> 00:48:46,759 Speaker 1: Pretty sure, it's the same thing everywhere, so we'll find 908 00:48:46,760 --> 00:48:51,160 Speaker 1: it inficially. That's where I am. That's where I am, like, yeah, perfect, Well, 909 00:48:51,200 --> 00:48:52,759 Speaker 1: thank you so much for in the same time with 910 00:48:52,840 --> 00:48:55,200 Speaker 1: us today, Dr Gates. I really appreciate it. Thank you. 911 00:48:55,239 --> 00:48:56,600 Speaker 1: It was so great to chat with you and be 912 00:48:56,680 --> 00:48:59,880 Speaker 1: able to like wax poetic about all things reality television. 913 00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:05,160 Speaker 1: I'm so glad that Dr Gates was able to share 914 00:49:05,200 --> 00:49:08,239 Speaker 1: her expertise with us today. To learn more about her 915 00:49:08,239 --> 00:49:10,960 Speaker 1: and her work, visit the show notes at Therapy for 916 00:49:11,000 --> 00:49:14,359 Speaker 1: Black Girls dot Com slash Session to eighteen, and don't 917 00:49:14,360 --> 00:49:16,439 Speaker 1: forget to text two of your girls and tell them 918 00:49:16,480 --> 00:49:19,160 Speaker 1: to check out the episode as well. If you're looking 919 00:49:19,239 --> 00:49:21,680 Speaker 1: for a therapist in your area, be sure to check 920 00:49:21,719 --> 00:49:24,640 Speaker 1: out our therapist directory at Therapy for Black Girls dot 921 00:49:24,680 --> 00:49:27,920 Speaker 1: com slash directory. And if you want to continue digging 922 00:49:27,960 --> 00:49:30,800 Speaker 1: into this topic or just be in community with other sisters, 923 00:49:31,239 --> 00:49:33,320 Speaker 1: come on over and join us in the Sister Circle. 924 00:49:33,880 --> 00:49:36,319 Speaker 1: It's our cozy corner of the Internet design just for 925 00:49:36,400 --> 00:49:39,720 Speaker 1: black women. You can join us at community that Therapy 926 00:49:39,760 --> 00:49:42,359 Speaker 1: for Black Girls dot com. Thank you all so much 927 00:49:42,360 --> 00:49:44,759 Speaker 1: for joining me again this week. I look forward to 928 00:49:44,800 --> 00:49:48,160 Speaker 1: continue in this conversation with you all real soon. Take 929 00:49:48,239 --> 00:49:48,680 Speaker 1: good care.