WEBVTT - Eric McCormack 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:02.440 Let's talk about ross for a second. How far did 0:00:02.480 --> 0:00:06.040 you get in that process? I got to the studio okay, 0:00:06.400 --> 0:00:09.160 and I had I guess it had to. They moved 0:00:09.160 --> 0:00:11.520 me up quickly to the studio level. I didn't make 0:00:11.560 --> 0:00:15.440 it past that. Years later, when I was working with 0:00:15.520 --> 0:00:19.200 Jim Burrows on Will and Grace, he directed the first 0:00:19.200 --> 0:00:23.160 twelve episodes of Friends, and I said, you know, Jimmy, 0:00:23.200 --> 0:00:24.720 I don't know if I never got to meet you, 0:00:24.760 --> 0:00:30.480 but pretty far along there on the Friends casting, he said, oh, honey, 0:00:30.520 --> 0:00:32.680 you were wasting your time. They wrote the part for 0:00:32.760 --> 0:00:36.720 Schwimmer and that was the end of That was the 0:00:36.800 --> 0:00:48.120 end of that dream. Hi, I'm Eric McCormack, and I 0:00:48.120 --> 0:00:59.520 I'm so embarrassed. Hello, Hello everybody, and welcome back to 0:01:00.080 --> 0:01:04.800 Off the Beat. I am, as always, your host, Brian Baumgartner, 0:01:04.959 --> 0:01:09.400 and you just heard from my guest today, the incredible 0:01:09.560 --> 0:01:16.440 and incredibly funny looking Eric McCormack. You might know him 0:01:16.440 --> 0:01:21.720 from his tenure playing the groundbreaking Will Truman on Will 0:01:21.800 --> 0:01:24.920 and Grace, for which he earned an Emmy for Outstanding 0:01:25.000 --> 0:01:28.800 Lead Actor in a Comedy Series and a star on 0:01:28.840 --> 0:01:32.360 the Hollywood Walk of Fame. Or maybe you know him 0:01:32.400 --> 0:01:37.839 from his time traveling show Travelers, or his crime drama perception. 0:01:38.280 --> 0:01:42.080 Eric has well, he's done it all. And as they 0:01:42.160 --> 0:01:45.960 said during the dedication of his Walk of Fame star, 0:01:46.880 --> 0:01:52.520 he's a national treasure even though he's Canadian and it's 0:01:53.120 --> 0:01:56.400 it's hard to argue with that. No, Eric is he 0:01:56.520 --> 0:01:59.680 is indeed a treasure in the US and Canada all 0:01:59.720 --> 0:02:02.920 over the world. I have gotten to know him working 0:02:03.040 --> 0:02:08.360 on our new show The Other Black Girl down in Atlanta. 0:02:08.639 --> 0:02:12.000 I'm excited to dig into his life with all of 0:02:12.040 --> 0:02:16.560 you here, from his background as a theater actor to 0:02:16.760 --> 0:02:21.160 his amazing friendship with Elton John. You're in for a 0:02:21.280 --> 0:02:24.440 treat today. I'm not gonna make you wait one moment longer. 0:02:25.040 --> 0:02:30.399 My new bestie and soon to be yours, Eric McCormack, 0:02:34.440 --> 0:02:42.080 Bubble and Squeak. I love Bubble and Squeak. Bubble and 0:02:42.120 --> 0:02:57.960 Squeaker cook at every month, left over from the night before. Well, well, 0:02:58.000 --> 0:03:06.680 well how are you? I mean, you know, I'm good? 0:03:06.760 --> 0:03:09.600 How are you? I mean? My little crappy I gotta 0:03:09.639 --> 0:03:11.720 I gotta figure out how to the only place in 0:03:11.960 --> 0:03:15.519 my home that this kind of thing works, podcasting and 0:03:15.560 --> 0:03:17.799 all of that is in like crappy little office which 0:03:17.840 --> 0:03:20.880 I have not updated in years, and it's just messy 0:03:20.960 --> 0:03:24.480 and I feel like I'm the gimp when I'm down here, 0:03:24.480 --> 0:03:29.680 like I've been locked down here, and let me upstairs eventually. Well, 0:03:29.800 --> 0:03:33.680 I mean, I don't really want the visual image of 0:03:33.800 --> 0:03:37.440 you being a gimp in your office, but it's there now, 0:03:38.040 --> 0:03:42.360 so sorry. Uh Well, first of all, Happy new Year, 0:03:42.960 --> 0:03:45.800 Happy new year to you, buddy. What a strange little 0:03:45.880 --> 0:03:48.040 little Am I going to see you again in the 0:03:48.040 --> 0:03:51.360 new year? I mean, I don't, I don't know. I mean, 0:03:51.400 --> 0:03:53.880 I guess you know better than I what we can 0:03:53.920 --> 0:03:57.520 say to people. But Eric and I are working on 0:03:58.520 --> 0:04:02.200 a new show together out in my hometown of Atlanta, Georgia. 0:04:02.520 --> 0:04:06.480 I don't know, I will see I guess. Yeah. It's 0:04:06.480 --> 0:04:08.600 a very I'm excited. It's based on a book called 0:04:08.680 --> 0:04:11.800 The Other Black Girl, and we're keeping the title, which 0:04:11.800 --> 0:04:13.480 of course is a white guy is always gonna be 0:04:13.520 --> 0:04:15.800 a very embarrassing title to what are you working on? 0:04:18.920 --> 0:04:21.920 What the other the Other Black Girl? It's it's a book, 0:04:21.920 --> 0:04:24.400 it's based on a book and award winning books. Um, 0:04:24.440 --> 0:04:27.799 but it's it's ays. It's a great ten episode half 0:04:27.839 --> 0:04:31.599 hour the three young women starring in a great uh, 0:04:31.600 --> 0:04:34.560 and Brian and I have some fun stuff to do, 0:04:34.640 --> 0:04:38.039 but we're not sure if Ryan's UH back in the 0:04:38.080 --> 0:04:41.640 next couple of episodes. We're not sure. Yeah, we're not sure. 0:04:42.440 --> 0:04:45.280 We probably shouldn't say I don't. I always feel like 0:04:45.279 --> 0:04:48.680 I'm gonna get in trouble anytime before something is out 0:04:48.720 --> 0:04:52.719 to say anything. But I can officially say that I 0:04:52.720 --> 0:04:55.560 am working and have gotten to know you in Atlanta, 0:04:55.600 --> 0:04:58.200 which has been delightful. Indeed, we've had a couple of 0:04:58.279 --> 0:05:02.640 great dinners together. Yeah. Um, well, I want to I 0:05:02.680 --> 0:05:06.200 want to end there, but I want to go back now. 0:05:06.400 --> 0:05:10.120 As we have discussed, and as my research has confirmed, 0:05:10.320 --> 0:05:13.839 you're originally from Canada. I asked. I'm a Toronto boy, 0:05:14.040 --> 0:05:16.760 and in fact, my family's Toronto for about four generations. 0:05:17.600 --> 0:05:20.680 And uh, my parents grew up in the east side 0:05:20.720 --> 0:05:23.200 of town, and I grew up in the suburbs and 0:05:23.200 --> 0:05:25.760 and didn't really make it out of there until I 0:05:25.800 --> 0:05:29.320 was almost thirty, and that was and just and that 0:05:29.360 --> 0:05:32.479 was to go west to Vancouver. I didn't really come 0:05:32.520 --> 0:05:35.440 to to l A until Yeah, I was about my 0:05:35.480 --> 0:05:42.280 thirties birthday. And you you were primarily doing theater early 0:05:42.360 --> 0:05:47.400 on correct yeah, I was. I mean years later I 0:05:47.440 --> 0:05:51.720 would hear about actors that had started pre med or 0:05:51.800 --> 0:05:53.760 or may or maybe they just discovered acting in their 0:05:53.760 --> 0:05:56.559 twice like what. I've been acting since I was five 0:05:56.640 --> 0:06:00.200 years old. And you know, I wasn't the child's are 0:06:00.279 --> 0:06:03.320 or anything. I was just that was I knew from 0:06:03.360 --> 0:06:05.200 the age of about six that's what I was gonna do, 0:06:05.360 --> 0:06:08.720 and was in every school play and uh went to 0:06:08.800 --> 0:06:12.240 theater school in in Toronto and then left a little 0:06:12.240 --> 0:06:15.200 early to apprentice at a Shakespeare company. And so my 0:06:15.360 --> 0:06:21.080 twenties were spent almost entirely in Canadian theater. Wait, but 0:06:21.360 --> 0:06:25.120 six years old, I understand you were inspired by mel Blanc, 0:06:25.640 --> 0:06:29.560 Yes for sure, who voiced all the Looney Tunes, Don 0:06:29.640 --> 0:06:36.520 Adams in Smart and Woody Allen. This is a collection. Yeah, 0:06:36.360 --> 0:06:39.120 I wasn't the big Woody Allen fan at six. That 0:06:39.200 --> 0:06:42.760 came a little bit later. But you know, another big 0:06:42.800 --> 0:06:45.400 one that only Canadians would really know, uh sort of. 0:06:45.400 --> 0:06:49.240 The Canadian version of Mr Rogers was a wonderful character 0:06:49.360 --> 0:06:52.640 named Mr. Dress Up who was played by an actor 0:06:52.720 --> 0:06:55.640 named Ernie Coombs, and he literally had what he called 0:06:55.680 --> 0:06:58.040 a tickle trunk. Every morning, every kid would watch this 0:06:58.080 --> 0:07:01.000 show across Canada and he would costumes out of a 0:07:01.040 --> 0:07:05.320 trunk and become that character. I swear that is is 0:07:05.400 --> 0:07:09.000 my earliest influence. But then, yeah, Mel Blank is a 0:07:09.040 --> 0:07:10.520 big one for me. I'm sure a lot of actors 0:07:10.520 --> 0:07:13.960 would say the same that when I realized because at 0:07:14.000 --> 0:07:15.880 the end of Loony Tunes were much bigger for my 0:07:16.000 --> 0:07:19.360 family than Disney. I would watch Loony Tunes every day 0:07:19.520 --> 0:07:22.240 and at the end of it, as you're watching those 0:07:22.320 --> 0:07:25.760 very speedy credits that go by, there would say voice 0:07:25.880 --> 0:07:29.240 characterization Mel Blank, and I thought, what the hell does 0:07:29.240 --> 0:07:32.280 that even mean? And then I discovered that it was 0:07:32.440 --> 0:07:34.800 one guy doing all of it, and I thought, well, 0:07:34.840 --> 0:07:40.080 this is this is a living somehow. Well, but isn't 0:07:40.080 --> 0:07:43.800 that crazy, right, Like I go through that with my kids. 0:07:44.360 --> 0:07:47.960 It's a complicated thing, right to understand that this is 0:07:48.320 --> 0:07:52.880 done by a person, the animated voices. This is very complicated. 0:07:53.560 --> 0:07:56.880 I've done very little. I did one kids thing which 0:07:56.960 --> 0:08:00.240 was called Pound Puppies. It did three seasons of Pound Pupas. 0:08:00.880 --> 0:08:04.559 But by that point my kid was already twelve or something, 0:08:04.600 --> 0:08:07.680 so he wasn't aware of that particular work. But it 0:08:07.840 --> 0:08:11.280 is interesting once once in a Blue Moon guy's coming 0:08:11.360 --> 0:08:12.760 to me in the street with his little kid, and 0:08:12.760 --> 0:08:15.880 he's pointed at me and said, honey, that's Lucky. That's 0:08:15.920 --> 0:08:19.760 Lucky the dog. And yeah, the look on the face 0:08:19.880 --> 0:08:22.760 is like, now, that is definitely not lucky that. Now. 0:08:22.800 --> 0:08:24.800 Did you have a trunk that you would take costumes 0:08:24.840 --> 0:08:28.280 out of? Oh? Yeah, absolutely, I mean I just I 0:08:28.360 --> 0:08:30.520 said that my mother very early on. I'm just gonna 0:08:30.520 --> 0:08:33.000 of course, what it was filled with was my dad's 0:08:33.040 --> 0:08:36.720 old shirts, you know, But that's okay. I made the 0:08:36.760 --> 0:08:39.240 hats my you know, and anybody that disposed to the 0:08:39.320 --> 0:08:42.240 hats was was mine. You're just like different versions of 0:08:42.320 --> 0:08:46.560 your dad, isn't that true? Though? Of all this king 0:08:47.320 --> 0:08:51.280 dad mowing the lawn, this is Dad. Yeah, this is 0:08:51.400 --> 0:08:55.319 Dad is a gangster m Yeah. That was a huge 0:08:55.360 --> 0:09:00.400 I mean I was that traditional kind of long kid. 0:09:00.400 --> 0:09:03.840 I had one best friend through my through my elementary years. 0:09:03.880 --> 0:09:07.120 But luckily he played along. I always thought he was 0:09:07.400 --> 0:09:09.480 like fifty with me and this. It wasn't til years 0:09:09.559 --> 0:09:12.040 later when I was talking about the games we would 0:09:12.040 --> 0:09:14.920 play in, the crazy characters and the stories we'd create 0:09:14.960 --> 0:09:16.760 in the imagination, You'd be like, dude, that was you. 0:09:16.880 --> 0:09:19.520 I just I just trying to keep up with I 0:09:19.520 --> 0:09:21.520 don't know what the hell you were doing, because I 0:09:21.640 --> 0:09:23.360 was say and it was a lot of stealing things 0:09:23.360 --> 0:09:27.000 from TV. You know. I'd watch mash or All in 0:09:27.000 --> 0:09:30.200 the Family with my dad, or some more serious stuff 0:09:30.240 --> 0:09:32.160 like crime solving stuff with my mom, and I would 0:09:32.200 --> 0:09:34.240 just the next day That's what I would act out 0:09:35.160 --> 0:09:38.960 all the time. So I think while so many actors 0:09:39.760 --> 0:09:43.640 were so influenced by SAVE films, my earliest influence is 0:09:43.679 --> 0:09:49.280 definitely all all television. How are your parents? Were they supportive? Yeah? 0:09:49.320 --> 0:09:52.160 You know the story I tell when I tried to 0:09:52.520 --> 0:09:55.760 shorten at this time coach By. But basically, my father 0:09:56.600 --> 0:09:59.760 was a traditional suburban dad that gotten the bus every 0:09:59.800 --> 0:10:02.240 day and went to a job as a financial analyst 0:10:02.360 --> 0:10:06.880 for Shell Oil. And when I started to get deeply 0:10:06.960 --> 0:10:09.920 into the musicals I was doing and wearing my rainbow 0:10:09.960 --> 0:10:13.559 suspenders from God's Spell all the time, and he put 0:10:13.640 --> 0:10:15.000 up with it, did he? He said, let's go all 0:10:15.040 --> 0:10:18.480 you're very well done. Well done. I got into a 0:10:18.800 --> 0:10:22.440 college called Ryerson, which was the theater program there, and 0:10:22.760 --> 0:10:26.400 they were supportive. That's about it until second year I 0:10:26.520 --> 0:10:28.960 found I was looking in my parents attic. I found 0:10:28.960 --> 0:10:35.080 a photo album of my father's years at Ryerson as 0:10:35.120 --> 0:10:39.000 an actor. He had that was his dream. And he 0:10:39.040 --> 0:10:42.600 graduated fifty two and then just stopped one day and 0:10:42.640 --> 0:10:46.120 didn't and just went back to school for accounting and 0:10:46.440 --> 0:10:49.160 never look back to the point where he never told 0:10:49.240 --> 0:10:55.160 me a wow. And I tried to pick his brain 0:10:55.760 --> 0:10:58.720 by this point as world of in the early eighties, 0:10:58.720 --> 0:11:02.360 and uh, he said, oh, well, you know, I wasn't. 0:11:02.440 --> 0:11:04.640 I wasn't as serious as you are. And and but 0:11:04.800 --> 0:11:07.840 he clearly had just made a very kind of early 0:11:07.960 --> 0:11:11.439 fifties decision that there's you know, there's a there's food 0:11:11.440 --> 0:11:14.640 to be put on the table, and and your dreams 0:11:14.640 --> 0:11:18.480 are are not real, and you've got to look at reality. 0:11:18.520 --> 0:11:23.840 And so the fact that I've sort of got something 0:11:24.080 --> 0:11:28.640 um from him that he wouldn't even really admit to 0:11:29.400 --> 0:11:31.480 until years later he come to Will and Grace Tapings 0:11:31.480 --> 0:11:33.600 and you'd get have a Martinian going. I taught him 0:11:33.600 --> 0:11:40.400 everything you knew, but he never met when you went, 0:11:40.600 --> 0:11:43.560 he never mentioned, oh I went there. We had a 0:11:43.559 --> 0:11:47.280 teacher in common, the late Jack McAllister, taught me speech, 0:11:47.440 --> 0:11:50.160 and he, thirty years earlier, had taught my father. And 0:11:50.520 --> 0:11:53.720 of course he never made the connections, and certainly I didn't, 0:11:53.760 --> 0:11:58.200 so yeah, so they were very very supportive and they 0:11:58.280 --> 0:12:00.600 got a great thrill out of it as the years 0:12:00.600 --> 0:12:04.800 went by, But that always hung. There is a great mystery. 0:12:05.000 --> 0:12:07.160 They're they're both gone now and I just will never 0:12:07.320 --> 0:12:11.560 fully solve why not why you don't pursue that dream, 0:12:11.760 --> 0:12:14.280 but why you don't even mention it ever as your 0:12:14.320 --> 0:12:17.440 son is deep in the heart of it, I'll never know. Um, 0:12:17.480 --> 0:12:20.960 after you left Ryerson, you accepted a position at the 0:12:20.960 --> 0:12:25.160 Stratford Shakespeare Festival. So were you you were doing the 0:12:25.200 --> 0:12:30.640 whole Shakespeare ensemble doing in various shows. Is that My 0:12:30.760 --> 0:12:33.480 theater school was very classical, so I was very prepared 0:12:33.520 --> 0:12:37.080 for this and got an apprenticeship. And there are people 0:12:37.120 --> 0:12:40.800 that the Stratford Festival in Canada, just outside of Toronto 0:12:41.000 --> 0:12:45.720 is the biggest in North America, and it is. It's fantastic, 0:12:45.800 --> 0:12:47.680 and there are people that stay there their whole lives. 0:12:48.679 --> 0:12:51.200 And I ended up there for five seasons, which is 0:12:52.160 --> 0:12:54.520 nine months of the year, so it was five full 0:12:54.600 --> 0:12:56.840 years of my life, and in the winters I would 0:12:56.880 --> 0:13:01.160 go to other theaters in Canada to do whatever I get. 0:13:01.600 --> 0:13:04.840 Um that there was no television for the longest, longest time, 0:13:05.200 --> 0:13:08.080 and uh, but I did. I ended up doing in 0:13:08.080 --> 0:13:12.600 that period of time about half the cannon, about seventeen 0:13:12.600 --> 0:13:15.520 of Shakespeare's place, and I was an apprentice and a 0:13:15.520 --> 0:13:17.679 lot of them I was just carrying a spear or understudy. 0:13:18.360 --> 0:13:20.840 But then I got a few good parts, and by 0:13:20.840 --> 0:13:23.440 the end of it, but it was eighty nine, I 0:13:23.520 --> 0:13:25.920 just sort of was starting to get the feeling that 0:13:25.920 --> 0:13:30.160 that's not my destiny. Okay, So let's talk about that 0:13:30.200 --> 0:13:32.920 for a second. Was was there, because you and I 0:13:32.960 --> 0:13:35.120 have talked about I started off in theater as well. 0:13:35.720 --> 0:13:39.080 Was there a period of time where you thought, like 0:13:39.120 --> 0:13:42.440 you mentioned, many people were there, they were life or there. 0:13:42.600 --> 0:13:46.640 What did you think that was your path? Early you said, 0:13:46.640 --> 0:13:50.480 there's a moment you decided no. But yeah, I I 0:13:50.600 --> 0:13:56.120 was so such a theater geek at that point and 0:13:56.480 --> 0:14:00.440 making okay money as theater goes that all the the 0:14:00.520 --> 0:14:02.240 dreams that I had had as a kid of you know, 0:14:02.280 --> 0:14:04.640 watching television and the idea of being on a television 0:14:04.760 --> 0:14:07.600 show or anything that kind of went away. I wanted. 0:14:07.920 --> 0:14:09.959 I wanted the respect and wanted the sort of the 0:14:10.040 --> 0:14:14.040 high flue life of being a poor theater actor. But 0:14:14.160 --> 0:14:17.880 I also started to realize that I had a This 0:14:18.040 --> 0:14:20.960 goes back to the Woody Allen reference. I my style 0:14:21.160 --> 0:14:26.960 was not intrinsically here Elizabethan I was. I was starting 0:14:26.960 --> 0:14:30.520 to get more and more sort of urban Jewish in 0:14:30.600 --> 0:14:34.720 my delivery. And the directors, literally John John Neville, who 0:14:35.720 --> 0:14:38.800 who was directing a production of Three Sisters. At one point, 0:14:38.880 --> 0:14:40.960 I was playing Baron Tuzenbach, and he stopped me in 0:14:41.000 --> 0:14:43.160 the middle of a run and said, right, Eric, he's 0:14:43.200 --> 0:14:47.320 a Russian baron. Is not the Allen because I just 0:14:47.800 --> 0:14:50.200 hands with my pockets and I was trying to find 0:14:51.400 --> 0:14:54.360 the modern sort of and I couldn't stop it. And 0:14:54.400 --> 0:14:57.280 I played Demetrius the same way. And it's like I 0:14:57.280 --> 0:15:00.960 eventually let go for being to sitcomy eight years before 0:15:01.000 --> 0:15:06.280 Will embarras so interesting. I played two Zimbox. Did you really? 0:15:06.880 --> 0:15:09.960 I love that part. It's a great love that role. 0:15:10.160 --> 0:15:13.640 It's a great part. The relationship with Arena beautiful. Yeah, 0:15:13.800 --> 0:15:16.800 did you? And he plays the piano in the first act? 0:15:17.200 --> 0:15:21.120 Did you play? No? I didn't, but they What I 0:15:21.160 --> 0:15:23.120 loved is that, because of the nature of the stage, 0:15:23.120 --> 0:15:25.640 they had to get rid of that piano quickly. How 0:15:25.640 --> 0:15:28.840 do you do that? So they had built a piano 0:15:28.920 --> 0:15:31.080 that looked like a baby grand from the audience. I mean, 0:15:31.120 --> 0:15:33.560 it was incredible, but you could lift it with one hand. 0:15:33.600 --> 0:15:37.880 It was a complete fake with the thinnest plywood. But 0:15:38.120 --> 0:15:41.000 I because I spent my whole adolescence in my bedroom 0:15:41.040 --> 0:15:44.280 pretending to be Freddie Mercury, So I just the idea 0:15:44.320 --> 0:15:46.320 that I could sit there and recite my lines and 0:15:46.360 --> 0:15:49.080 talking to Arena and act like I'm playing this music. 0:15:49.120 --> 0:15:54.240 I just maybe so happy. So you have a moment 0:15:55.000 --> 0:15:59.280 where you're at Stratford and you start thinking that maybe 0:16:00.000 --> 0:16:02.920 you want to switch gears? Do you consider it at 0:16:02.960 --> 0:16:06.040 this moment? Because I did, By the way, spoiler alert, 0:16:06.080 --> 0:16:09.120 I'll answer my own question before I ask it. Did 0:16:09.120 --> 0:16:13.680 you consider it changing careers? Well, at this point, I'm 0:16:13.720 --> 0:16:19.040 still basically Toronto based, and there really was there. There 0:16:19.080 --> 0:16:22.200 were some actors that got some Canadian series that didn't 0:16:22.200 --> 0:16:23.720 do a whole lot of theater at a lot of theater, 0:16:23.760 --> 0:16:26.120 actors that couldn't get in at the CBC. But for 0:16:26.160 --> 0:16:28.400 the most part, there was a lot of bleed over 0:16:28.480 --> 0:16:31.560 because it was a limited acting pool. So it didn't 0:16:31.600 --> 0:16:33.560 seem like I had to fully change careers, but I 0:16:33.600 --> 0:16:37.480 was pretty aware that I had to change something, that 0:16:37.680 --> 0:16:43.400 whenever this sort of flamboyant theatricality that I enjoyed for years, 0:16:43.440 --> 0:16:46.960 something was going to change. And it wasn't landing much 0:16:47.600 --> 0:16:50.880 in Toronto. And then in ninety two, a couple of 0:16:50.960 --> 0:16:53.040 years later, I flew because somebody told me there was 0:16:53.080 --> 0:16:56.040 so much more television going on in Vancouver, Canadian and 0:16:56.080 --> 0:16:58.440 a lot of American stuff. So I flew out there 0:16:58.440 --> 0:17:01.560 and slept on my friend's couch and and started auditioning. 0:17:02.040 --> 0:17:05.119 And the big lesson came when I auditioned for the 0:17:05.160 --> 0:17:08.919 original The X Files. They'd already started, they shot the pilot, 0:17:08.920 --> 0:17:10.760 they were starting to shoot episodes, and I was auditioning 0:17:10.800 --> 0:17:13.840 for a guest star for Chris Carter and I did 0:17:13.880 --> 0:17:17.560 my scene and he said, okay, just that, just one 0:17:17.600 --> 0:17:21.119 more time, just do less. So okay, I tried, did 0:17:21.160 --> 0:17:25.439 it again. He said yeah, less, really okay, And now 0:17:25.520 --> 0:17:29.040 I'm I'm practically whispering and I'm trying not to move anything, 0:17:29.640 --> 0:17:32.439 and he said one more time, he said less, And 0:17:32.440 --> 0:17:34.200 I said, if I do less, I won't be doing 0:17:34.240 --> 0:17:36.000 anything at all. And he said, yeah, that's kind of 0:17:36.040 --> 0:17:39.280 what we're going for and I did. I simply couldn't 0:17:39.320 --> 0:17:43.560 understand until I saw, you know, the pilot, and I went, oh, okay, 0:17:43.600 --> 0:17:46.600 I gotta learn how to do that. I don't know 0:17:46.640 --> 0:17:49.720 how to not do things with my eyes and move 0:17:49.800 --> 0:17:51.919 my hands. And it is so it is in a 0:17:51.960 --> 0:17:55.040 way to your question, it is a new kind of skill. 0:17:55.119 --> 0:17:58.400 It's a new career in a way. Yeah, you get 0:17:58.400 --> 0:18:03.760 your first break on street just this. Yes, Car Carl 0:18:03.760 --> 0:18:06.240 Weathers and I Carl Weathers and I solving crimes. But 0:18:06.520 --> 0:18:09.560 this is drama now, which I guess makes sense. I mean, 0:18:09.560 --> 0:18:13.280 you're doing lear, but my guess is not a ton 0:18:13.359 --> 0:18:17.800 of theatricality in that or in Lonesome Dove, which comes 0:18:17.960 --> 0:18:21.240 shortly after that. Yeah, The Lonesome Lonesome Dove was the 0:18:21.280 --> 0:18:24.480 big change for me because I was doing like, like 0:18:24.560 --> 0:18:27.040 a lot of guys that were in Vancouver round that time, 0:18:27.080 --> 0:18:29.560 that one Jump Street time. It was a lot of young, 0:18:29.640 --> 0:18:32.600 good looking guys. We're all vying for the same parts, 0:18:32.680 --> 0:18:35.720 and a lot of the television was badly written. It 0:18:35.880 --> 0:18:37.920 was no great that this was The Lonesome Dove. And 0:18:38.000 --> 0:18:42.160 ninety four was the spinoff of the miniseries, and it 0:18:42.280 --> 0:18:46.840 was to play this I hesitate to use the word macho, 0:18:47.040 --> 0:18:51.600 but this this sort of tough Confederate colonel with the accent, 0:18:51.720 --> 0:18:53.199 and I had my hair was kind of long at 0:18:53.200 --> 0:18:54.720 the time, and I grew a beard, and it was 0:18:54.760 --> 0:18:56.880 so not me. It was so the opposite of everything 0:18:56.880 --> 0:19:00.040 I've ever done. So getting it was pretty awesome, and 0:19:00.359 --> 0:19:04.200 it really in my brain, I thought, this is what 0:19:04.280 --> 0:19:06.400 I will be. I didn't think that necessarily this show 0:19:06.480 --> 0:19:08.760 is going to make me famous, but I thought this 0:19:08.800 --> 0:19:11.120 is how I'll be perceived now in the business. Because 0:19:11.119 --> 0:19:14.240 I was thirty one, I'll be my thirties. I'll be 0:19:15.680 --> 0:19:18.920 right rides horses and shoots guns and and that's what 0:19:18.960 --> 0:19:23.399 I'll be until I'm a gay lawyer, I guess southern 0:19:24.200 --> 0:19:31.560 Southern Confederate soldier. Yeah. Yeah, that's that's exactly what I 0:19:31.600 --> 0:19:37.480 think of you. I know. So you're doing these dramas. 0:19:37.880 --> 0:19:42.159 Is there a thought in your head about comedy, about 0:19:42.520 --> 0:19:46.600 wanting that or feeling that like that's where you should 0:19:46.600 --> 0:19:50.560 be or were you just auditioning and trying to get something? Yeah, 0:19:50.640 --> 0:19:52.960 I mean both both those things are true. Is definitely 0:19:53.000 --> 0:19:56.600 auditioning and trying to get something. And you know, to 0:19:56.640 --> 0:19:59.399 go back to the tickle trunk. I mean, whatever costume 0:19:59.480 --> 0:20:01.040 might pull out. It could be funny, but it could 0:20:01.040 --> 0:20:05.240 be serious. I loved I love playing in my backyard. 0:20:05.280 --> 0:20:07.520 It was a kid. I'd play cops and I decided 0:20:07.520 --> 0:20:11.040 that they were divorced, so they were angry, and I always, 0:20:11.080 --> 0:20:13.280 you know, there was there was a dramatic side to 0:20:13.359 --> 0:20:17.560 me that also needed to be fed, and a lot 0:20:17.600 --> 0:20:22.000 of theater school was was that. But what was happening 0:20:22.000 --> 0:20:24.119 I was doing lonesome job. I was playing this incredibly 0:20:24.200 --> 0:20:28.680 serious part. But when I'd go home, I'm watching Seinfeld 0:20:28.960 --> 0:20:32.679 and I'm watching Friends, and I'd grown up on Cheers, 0:20:32.720 --> 0:20:35.439 and It's like like there was a big part of 0:20:35.480 --> 0:20:40.120 me that was going kind damn it because I got 0:20:40.200 --> 0:20:45.320 Lonesome Dove, having only weeks earlier auditioned for Ross on Friends, 0:20:46.200 --> 0:20:49.080 I've done my first pilot season and nothing had come 0:20:49.119 --> 0:20:50.760 of it, and I Lonesome Dove was a result of 0:20:50.760 --> 0:20:54.360 a Canadian audition, so that I was very aware now 0:20:54.800 --> 0:20:58.800 of what was happening on television that I loved, which 0:20:58.880 --> 0:21:02.440 was the great sort of SEETV stuff on our network. 0:21:03.400 --> 0:21:06.399 All right, well, wait, let's talk about Ross for a second. 0:21:06.560 --> 0:21:09.040 How far did you get in that process. I got 0:21:09.080 --> 0:21:12.359 to the studio and I had I guess it had to. 0:21:12.960 --> 0:21:15.639 They moved me up quickly to the studio level. I 0:21:15.680 --> 0:21:19.520 didn't make it past that. Years later, when I was 0:21:19.600 --> 0:21:23.399 working with Jim Burrows on Will and Grace, he directed 0:21:23.440 --> 0:21:27.720 the first twelve episodes of Friends, and I said, you know, Jimmy, 0:21:27.760 --> 0:21:29.239 I don't know if I never got to meet you, 0:21:29.280 --> 0:21:32.399 but I got pretty far along there on the Friends 0:21:32.440 --> 0:21:36.160 casting and he said, oh, honey, were wasting your time. 0:21:36.240 --> 0:21:39.440 They wrote the park for schwim Mark and that was 0:21:39.480 --> 0:22:00.280 the end of that. At the end of that dream, 0:22:00.440 --> 0:22:03.600 talk to me about Will and Grace. Was this just 0:22:03.680 --> 0:22:07.119 an audition? This was an opportunity? Did you know any 0:22:07.160 --> 0:22:10.919 of the players involved? I didn't know anybody. Tracy Lillian 0:22:10.960 --> 0:22:14.680 phild had cast it, and she had had tried to 0:22:14.720 --> 0:22:16.520 cast me in one or two other things, so she 0:22:16.640 --> 0:22:18.480 was definitely got me in the room. I was not 0:22:18.560 --> 0:22:21.280 a known fact at that time. I was reading Matthew 0:22:21.280 --> 0:22:23.920 Perry's book and it reminded me that in that sort 0:22:23.920 --> 0:22:28.920 of period through the nineties and pilot season, everybody sort 0:22:28.920 --> 0:22:31.520 of knew seemed to know everybody, and if you know, 0:22:31.560 --> 0:22:33.120 if you didn't get this one. You're gonna get that one. 0:22:33.160 --> 0:22:35.679 And and I don't think I was in that pool. 0:22:35.760 --> 0:22:37.439 I wasn't aware of being at that pool. I was 0:22:37.680 --> 0:22:40.840 just down from Canada. I didn't know that many people. 0:22:41.040 --> 0:22:44.360 But if a casting director sees you and believes in you, 0:22:44.800 --> 0:22:46.920 they'll get you in. And that's that's what happened there. 0:22:46.960 --> 0:22:48.879 And I read this guy. I knew but because this 0:22:48.960 --> 0:22:52.320 by this point, it's nineties seven and it's and friends 0:22:52.359 --> 0:22:55.160 and mad about you, and they're all like gigantic shows 0:22:55.160 --> 0:22:58.679 Seinfeld of course, so I knew. With the pond, I 0:22:58.760 --> 0:23:01.200 was trying to swim in and I knew a good 0:23:01.200 --> 0:23:02.760 script when I saw it, and it was a great 0:23:02.760 --> 0:23:05.679 pilot script, and I just I went in. I was 0:23:05.800 --> 0:23:08.280 my hair was quite long, and I was wearing this 0:23:08.800 --> 0:23:12.840 odd sweater. I looked back down and going was I thinking? 0:23:12.880 --> 0:23:15.040 But but I went in and I just did this 0:23:15.119 --> 0:23:18.040 one scene. It was on a park bench with with Grace, 0:23:18.080 --> 0:23:19.919 and I don't think that scene never made it to 0:23:19.920 --> 0:23:22.760 the show. But I did that one scene. And Max 0:23:22.880 --> 0:23:25.480 much Nick, was the the gay one of the two 0:23:25.520 --> 0:23:28.400 that created the show, just jumped out of his seat 0:23:28.440 --> 0:23:30.919 and said, okay, just so you know, you never have 0:23:31.080 --> 0:23:35.880 to be more gay than that, and I went, okay, okay, 0:23:36.320 --> 0:23:38.560 that's good, that's good, right, thank you. I don't know, 0:23:38.600 --> 0:23:41.199 because even they were trying to find that balance of 0:23:41.480 --> 0:23:43.359 you know, because they knew that they could with Jack, 0:23:43.440 --> 0:23:45.880 they could go crazy, but the will what is that balance? 0:23:45.920 --> 0:23:49.879 And so I was just gay enough. But but that 0:23:50.000 --> 0:23:54.000 was one of I'm pretty sure six auditions. And what 0:23:54.080 --> 0:23:55.560 was weird is that I kind of felt like I 0:23:55.680 --> 0:23:58.320