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Speaker 1: Pushkin. This is broken record liner notes for the Digital Age.

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Speaker 1: I'm justin Richmondson. Hey y'all. We'll be back on our

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Speaker 1: normal schedule next week, dropping new episodes on Tuesday, but

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Speaker 1: we wanted to share with you an episode we didn't

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Speaker 1: get a chance to run last year but still really enjoyed.

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Speaker 1: It's Bruce Headlam speaking to singer, songwriter, pianist nineties alt

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Speaker 1: rocker Ben Folds. Folds is best known for the music

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Speaker 1: he put out with The ben Folds Five in the

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Speaker 1: mid nineties, particularly for the song Brick, which was a

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Speaker 1: bit of a surprise hit in nineteen ninety eight. Who

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Speaker 1: was also known for his onstage antics, like smashing a

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Speaker 1: priceless Steinway piano on national TV in Australia that got

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Speaker 1: him dropped from a Steinway endorsement. Folds talks with Bruce

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Speaker 1: about the genesis of these angsty stage antics, and also

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Speaker 1: about the making of the song Brick, and other anecdotes

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Speaker 1: gleaned from the book he wrote about his life and craft,

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Speaker 1: called A Dream About Lightning Books. Enjoy this episode. It

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Speaker 1: was taped pre pandemic, so Bruce and Folds are on

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Speaker 1: the same studio and we'll see you next week. You

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Speaker 1: mentioned in the book that you are both a hard

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Speaker 1: worker and completely undisciplined. Right now, you've written an enormous

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Speaker 1: number of songs. Your last record also had a piano concerto.

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Speaker 1: You've written different kinds of music. What was it like

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Speaker 1: writing a book as opposed to writing songs? Interestingly, I

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Speaker 1: found discipline writing the book that I hadn't found in

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Speaker 1: writing songs. And I think it actually came down to

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Speaker 1: something I had read Stephen King said about if you

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Speaker 1: want to write a book, sit down in the morning,

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Speaker 1: shut the door and write two or three thousand words

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Speaker 1: that should get chupped about two o'clock, go get lunch

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Speaker 1: and forget about it. And I thought, oh, well, he

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Speaker 1: knows how to write a book. I'll just do that.

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Speaker 1: And I went to my office, shut the door, and

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Speaker 1: I wrote for three or four hours, like Stephen King said. Now,

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Speaker 1: I've never written music that way. So that is discipline

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Speaker 1: that I found. But I think it is a distinction.

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Speaker 1: I work hard, not because I was taught discipline or

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Speaker 1: I have a good knack for discipline. I'm just simply driven.

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Speaker 1: And I think that's a harder way to do it.

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Speaker 1: I think it's better if you have a Sergeant Rock

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Speaker 1: inside guilting the hell out of you if you're not

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Speaker 1: getting up early in the morning and doing your sit

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Speaker 1: ups in your meditation and then going straight into the

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Speaker 1: room right in your morning page. It's not all that stuff.

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Speaker 1: I think that's a that's an enviable thing. But when

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Speaker 1: it comes to music, I'm awful. I have to have

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Speaker 1: the deadline after have people breathing down my knack. That

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Speaker 1: has to be a drama about I'm not going to

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Speaker 1: turn it in on time. And it's the worst thing

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Speaker 1: I've ever written, and you can't make me turn it

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Speaker 1: in on time. And I'm going to take this from

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Speaker 1: my goal. Cold dead fingers and all this. I just

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Speaker 1: you know, but the book everything I got in before time.

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Speaker 1: I drove the project and I was disciplined. Have you

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Speaker 1: tried to apply that to music since or just it

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Speaker 1: does just a different thing doesn't work. I don't know.

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Speaker 1: It's it's hard to it's hard to turn that around.

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Speaker 1: It's hard to turn you know, like not spring Chicken.

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Speaker 1: I've got my drama habits. I have to be late

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Speaker 1: with my projects and all this stuff. It's just the

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Speaker 1: way I seem to roll. I did try. I mean

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Speaker 1: I put in my calendar, I'll put a little music signs.

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Speaker 1: I drew them all over my calendar for this year.

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Speaker 1: These are the days I'm going to write music because

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Speaker 1: I thought I would learn from my book writing that

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Speaker 1: I've done it. Now that done nothing. No, I'm terrible. Okay, yeah,

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Speaker 1: well it's different. It's not terrible. Trying to say terrible.

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Speaker 1: I find it. I judge it terrible, but thank you.

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Speaker 1: I'll take that in Speaking of judging. Uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: I remember when you first came out with a lot

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Speaker 1: of people thought, well, you know, he's like a college guy. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: which was It is never a compliment when it comes

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Speaker 1: to rock music because people somehow think college it's rock

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Speaker 1: music out of you. But you would have really chaotic

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Speaker 1: yeah upbringing, you know, and your family head chaos. Going back,

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Speaker 1: your your and your grandmother were both left at orphanages

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Speaker 1: for a time. Your grandfather threatened to kill your father

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Speaker 1: at some point. What was it like growing up in

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Speaker 1: that kind of atmosphere. Well, you know, the reason that

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Speaker 1: I put a lot of that stuff in was if

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Speaker 1: I was going to say, I would like to teach

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Speaker 1: people about creativity, but I'm not an expert on creativity

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Speaker 1: outside of my own. So it's like, Okay, well, the

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Speaker 1: best way to do this is to tell how I

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Speaker 1: did it. But then it's like you almost kind of

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Speaker 1: want to do a little almost ethnographic study of how

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Speaker 1: did I get there? And so I looked back at

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Speaker 1: the momentum that had propelled me into being a person

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Speaker 1: that that how I was born, what I was born into,

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Speaker 1: and what I see is an incredible firewall that my

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Speaker 1: parents threw up between their abusive upbringings and mine. Incredible.

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Speaker 1: I mean, they say the cycles is impossible to breakers,

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Speaker 1: very difficult break. My parents show that to be wrong,

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Speaker 1: I mean, and they had me very young, and it's

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Speaker 1: the clean slate which is part of the part of

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Speaker 1: the chaos of my upbringing. So the fact that all

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Speaker 1: that stuff happened and was of interest in all this

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Speaker 1: energy of craziness in my parents upbringing and then boom

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Speaker 1: it comes to my brother and I are are born,

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Speaker 1: and they just played it all by ear and cut

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Speaker 1: all that off. And I think that that I felt

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Speaker 1: that like I've felt the upbringings of my father being

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Speaker 1: held up at knife point and gunpoint, and my grandfather

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Speaker 1: killed himself. But I never really met my grandfather, and

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Speaker 1: I wasn't around for those things, but it does by

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Speaker 1: osmosis sink in, and you know that that we moved

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Speaker 1: every years. You know, my father just probably clean slate

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Speaker 1: in it every year, trying to survive, you know. I

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Speaker 1: mean a lot of people don't survive mentally what he

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Speaker 1: went through and he did so, like amazingly. Was it

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Speaker 1: responsible for a bit of your a year drive and

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Speaker 1: be on the other hand, your lack of discipline, Well,

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Speaker 1: I think my lack of discipline was the trade off

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Speaker 1: for my parents being so open minded. So, like, what's

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Speaker 1: today going to be? I don't know, it's no schedule.

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Speaker 1: Did you get to school? You got to school. That's good. Oh,

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Speaker 1: you liked that song on the radio. Well, you don't

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Speaker 1: have to go to school until noon. You can listen

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Speaker 1: to that song. You liked that song. Yeah, you told

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Speaker 1: the story. Your mother let you stay late because you

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Speaker 1: liked the song in the ray Paul Simon song called

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Speaker 1: love Me Like a Rock. I love that song. I

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Speaker 1: was waiting for that to come on since six in

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Speaker 1: the morning. I woke up early, had my transistor radio

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Speaker 1: on the ear. I had requested at the radio station.

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Speaker 1: They said they were going to play it. Seven o'clock

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Speaker 1: rolled around, they still hadn't played it. Eight o'clock and

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Speaker 1: then I'm like, they haven't played the song, but they're

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Speaker 1: gonna play it after commercial ms. I find I don't

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Speaker 1: have to go to school. It's wonderful, it's great, but

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Speaker 1: it's not exactly a discipline lifestyle. No, But you were

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Speaker 1: very driven from an early age on the piano. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And as you describe it in the book, you would

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Speaker 1: listen to your radio at night, yeah, and then you

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Speaker 1: would get up and you didn't I don't quite understand.

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Speaker 1: You said you didn't play by ear, but you somehow

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Speaker 1: fumbled through to figure out the song. So what was that? Well,

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Speaker 1: I didn't really get there. That's the problem is that

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Speaker 1: that's not where I arrived. Like I listened to the

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Speaker 1: radio and I would hear these songs like a real

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Speaker 1: simple one, that lou Rawl song that goes you'll never

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Speaker 1: find simple all that is is. But I couldn't find it,

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Speaker 1: you know, because you don't know what you're looking for.

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Speaker 1: As a kid, I never had a vocabulary early on

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Speaker 1: to learn other people's songs. So even though I wanted to,

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Speaker 1: and I mentioned that in the book, that. Yeah, I'm

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Speaker 1: going to play all these songs when I wake up.

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Speaker 1: There is actually a method. I believe you should learn

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Speaker 1: to play by ear. It's not something that just happens

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Speaker 1: out of thin air. And I found it very frustrating.

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Speaker 1: That's why I broke a lot of stuff growing up.

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Speaker 1: I threw a lot of fits when I was a kid.

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Speaker 1: I threw my punched holes in walls, I broke furniture

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Speaker 1: in trouble constantly for it. Because I couldn't play something

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Speaker 1: on the piano. I would listen to it and go, oh,

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Speaker 1: I should be able to play that. Well, where do

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Speaker 1: you start? I never knew, And so what were you

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Speaker 1: playing in those days you weren't playing? I would find

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Speaker 1: that was the song lou roll song. That's right, you're

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Speaker 1: gonna miss my singing. I love that song? Yeah, um yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean I ended up finding my own songs, you know.

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Speaker 1: I would search for things and try to play. Started

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Speaker 1: off doing a lot of noise, you know, which I

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Speaker 1: would recommend for kids. I actually think it's really good.

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Speaker 1: It's like throwing your food or putting your hands in

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Speaker 1: food when you were like, you know, eighteen months old

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Speaker 1: or something. That's something you should probably do um. And

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Speaker 1: then I would, you know, I would start to find

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Speaker 1: things that I could that I could play it, and

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Speaker 1: I made them up, like I remember one that went

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Speaker 1: that's really it was based around a little theme like

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Speaker 1: that I'm trying to play like a child. And I

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Speaker 1: mean I made that up when I was about eight

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Speaker 1: or nine, and it's got interesting chords in it and

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Speaker 1: it's cool. But I wasn't finding I wasn't able to find,

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Speaker 1: you know, the Elton John song I might want to find.

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Speaker 1: To this day, I can play one of his songs

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Speaker 1: on the pianos because I learned it to play with him,

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Speaker 1: and I had to really work at it. I don't

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Speaker 1: learn other people's stuff very well. I found my own stuff,

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Speaker 1: and I found years later Elton John talked to you

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Speaker 1: how to play one of his songs. Now I learned

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Speaker 1: it myself. I was just like, we're He's like, let's

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Speaker 1: play a tiny dancer together, and so I learned it.

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Speaker 1: I learned a couple other of his songs actually, come

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Speaker 1: to think of it, because I did a couple of

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Speaker 1: gigs with him, but they were always really had to

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Speaker 1: put the time into it, because you know, like someone

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Speaker 1: like Rufus wain Rice is really really confident about his singing.

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Speaker 1: You know, he's such a great singer. And I remember

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Speaker 1: we both did a thing with Elton in a Broadway

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Speaker 1: theater where we were playing Goodbye Yell Brick Road in

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Speaker 1: his entirety and Jake from Scissor Sisters, and there's a

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Speaker 1: couple of things, a really neat little show, and I

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Speaker 1: was to sign two of his songs, and I worked

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Speaker 1: on it for two days, all day long in the hotel,

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Speaker 1: and then when I got there, I realized that all

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Speaker 1: all Rufus was doing it was just reading off the teleprompter.

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Speaker 1: He didn't really know the song. Rufus didn't know the

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Speaker 1: song Goodbye Yell Brick Road. He just kind of didn't

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Speaker 1: know it. He was just reading the words and his

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Speaker 1: melody was coming out as he just kind of thought

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Speaker 1: he should do it. And I remember thinking, God, I

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Speaker 1: worked so hard. They're trying to find that and he's

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Speaker 1: killing it. But he's just doing his own thing. You know,

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Speaker 1: even though I seem cavalier as a musician, when there's

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Speaker 1: something I need to do, i'd really try hard to

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Speaker 1: find it, and I work hard to find it, you know, right,

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Speaker 1: this is the hard worker. The hard work necessarily discipline.

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Speaker 1: If I had been disciplined, I would have learned how

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Speaker 1: to actually learn. But I didn't learn how to learn.

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Speaker 1: I have to like sit down and figure that out.

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Speaker 1: You were also a drummer when you were young. Yea,

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Speaker 1: and you say at some point in the book that

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Speaker 1: you you sort of played the piano like a drummer. Yes.

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Speaker 1: Can you show me what you mean by that? Yeah? Well,

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Speaker 1: there's two things that are really lucky about the way

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Speaker 1: my piano playing developed. Because I was I did have

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Speaker 1: a lot of lessons, and I did study percussion, So

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Speaker 1: my percussion chops pretty real. My piano stuff is really spotty.

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Speaker 1: Think why when I start to talk about my development

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Speaker 1: on the piano, I really kind of go into outer space.

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Speaker 1: I can't really explain it, you know, like we've been

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Speaker 1: talking about it. I'd say I've the least articulate about that.

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Speaker 1: If I'm if I'm explaining percussion drums, Oh yeah, I

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Speaker 1: can do that. What I play and what's common from

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Speaker 1: my eras as a battery percussionist is called left hand lead,

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Speaker 1: and it's left hand lead because people marched, so all

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Speaker 1: of the what they call the rudiments of percussion called

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Speaker 1: funny things like radom accuse and paradiddles. I don't know

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Speaker 1: if you've heard flamma diddles. All this stuff is all military,

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Speaker 1: but it's actually really good for putting you through the paces.

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Speaker 1: But it's a left hand lead when most people aren't

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Speaker 1: left handed. That's because you march left right, left right,

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Speaker 1: and that's why we do that. So I was learning

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Speaker 1: percussion totally left hand lead like I was supposed to,

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Speaker 1: which has really great benefit for the piano. For for instance,

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Speaker 1: you know, just going left or right, it's like just

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Speaker 1: to play rock and roll music, I'm not grounded at

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Speaker 1: the top of the piano. It's always going to happen

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Speaker 1: at the bottom first. And that might seem small, but

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Speaker 1: you know, to me, to hear my groove on the piano,

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Speaker 1: well it's much better than most piano players, just because

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Speaker 1: even if they were drummers, they might be more right handed,

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Speaker 1: but because I was trained that way. So on the piano,

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Speaker 1: for instance, if you're if you're a common right handed drummer,

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Speaker 1: you're working against the left handed lead method, which means

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Speaker 1: a lot of drum set players actually aren't. They're right handed,

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Speaker 1: they're not exactly uh trained or skilled at at sort

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Speaker 1: of stick control. Like most professional drummers I see, even

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Speaker 1: really great ones. If you have them do a buzz role,

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Speaker 1: it's really sketchy. It's not that good. Mine was kind

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Speaker 1: of perfect after the first year of of of playing

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Speaker 1: acause that was really serious about anyway. So so when

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Speaker 1: when they when they go to play a ride pattern, okay, uh,

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Speaker 1: this is all gonna get out of out when this

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Speaker 1: is the stuff we love really Okay, if you're playing

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Speaker 1: a ride pattern, you're a right handed drummer, you know

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Speaker 1: that your right hand is going on the symbol or

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Speaker 1: the high is going and then your left hand is

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Speaker 1: on the snare drunk going to dot and you're let's see,

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Speaker 1: it's your right foot is playing the bass drums. You're

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Speaker 1: leading with your right foot right, left, right, left right,

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Speaker 1: staring kick, staring right left. You're not going left, right,

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Speaker 1: left right. I enjoyed already going left right, left, right

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Speaker 1: because I had that old school stuff in my training,

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Speaker 1: which was kind of unusual for said drummer. Then when

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Speaker 1: you translate that to piano, then my left hand is

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Speaker 1: the ride symbol right. So when I play a left

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Speaker 1: handed kit, which is what I do, I'm a left

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Speaker 1: handed drummer, my left hand is riding, which is very unusual,

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Speaker 1: But for a piano player, it's a dream because I'm

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Speaker 1: going with my left hand and I'm completely grounded that way,

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Speaker 1: and if I wanted to go, I can. I can

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Speaker 1: play syncope because I always have a root in my

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Speaker 1: right hand hitting the downbeat. And most piano players are

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Speaker 1: viewing this as a lot of different events like they're

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Speaker 1: they're they're viewing it. That's one event. To me, just

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Speaker 1: land on my left foot and I'm fine. That's That's

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Speaker 1: easy for me because I've played left hand lead, left

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Speaker 1: hand drums set and when I applied that to piano.

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Speaker 1: With my piano concerto, the hardest things to do in

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Speaker 1: it are just simply drummer things, left right rhythm things.

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Speaker 1: You know, a piano player might find the piece difficult

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Speaker 1: sometimes only because of the left right, left right stuff.

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Speaker 1: For a piano player, they would expect more beautiful runs. Well,

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Speaker 1: I don't really have an articulate beautiful run. I'm a

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Speaker 1: percussive piano player. So my piano concerto starts with this

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Speaker 1: and that, and all that is is just playing drums.

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Speaker 1: I'm just going and it doesn't take much for me,

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Speaker 1: but if I had to go, it's not a good scale.

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Speaker 1: I'm not very good at that. Wow. Now, when you

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Speaker 1: listen to other players, can you hear are there other

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Speaker 1: left handed piano players you can hear and see? There

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Speaker 1: are some piano players that are just more rooted in

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Speaker 1: a drum set and they sound like that to me too.

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Speaker 1: That come hit me from the top of head. Are

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Speaker 1: Stevie Wonder when he plays drums and he plays piano

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Speaker 1: that sounds very similar to me. And he said, and

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Speaker 1: I don't think he probably plays left handed, but I

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Speaker 1: suppose and from what I've heard, I've never seen him

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Speaker 1: play drums that he's all over the shop because he

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Speaker 1: can't see what he's doing. So he don't think he

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Speaker 1: plays like a left or right handed drummer. So the

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Speaker 1: left handed thing wouldn't come in, but the drum set

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Speaker 1: thing definitely like you hear him play piano that sounds

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Speaker 1: like a drum set. And I don't know if Billy

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Speaker 1: Preston played drums or not, but he had a relentless

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Speaker 1: groove at the keyboard, the kind that you don't hear

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Speaker 1: many players these days have. And and I hate to

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Speaker 1: you know I'm a different style and everything, and this

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Speaker 1: is gonna sound very cocky, but I would place myself

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Speaker 1: in that kind of in that small group of keyboard

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Speaker 1: players that can actually play in time. If I would

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Speaker 1: talk to people who played with you, what would they

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Speaker 1: say about your sense of timing. Well, everyone's so damn opinionated.

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Speaker 1: They think their time is perfect, So no one's going

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Speaker 1: to completely agree with me. But I think most musicians

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Speaker 1: would say I have good time as a As a

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Speaker 1: piano player, I probably lean forward a little bit, so

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Speaker 1: you're you're on top of the beating. I think I'm

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Speaker 1: a little bit on top of the beat. But it

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Speaker 1: depends on the song. I mean, I play solo piano

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Speaker 1: so much, I'm allowed to play with the time, and

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Speaker 1: I know that sometimes I choose to really pull it back.

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Speaker 1: There's a song called still Finding It. When I get

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Speaker 1: to the chorus and it's like, it's been about this

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Speaker 1: tempo everybody. Oh, it's gone through this. Sorry, it's gone

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Speaker 1: through that. Everybody established to get to the course. I'm

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Speaker 1: just pulling back, especially on the twos and fours. That's

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Speaker 1: just down right weird. Uh, That that one. I played

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Speaker 1: all the instruments on the record, and I had a

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Speaker 1: very concerned producers like, you're dragging so bad. So we

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Speaker 1: re reprogrammed, you know, the grid to slow it down

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Speaker 1: like five clicks. So it had to be programmed into

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Speaker 1: the computer that I insisted at the computer following me

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Speaker 1: and slow down. I like a time map like that.

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Speaker 1: I think it is smart. We'll be right back with

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Speaker 1: more from Ben Folds. We're back with Bruce Hedland's converse

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Speaker 1: with Ben Folds, So I want to switch a little

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Speaker 1: bit and talk about your lyrics. We haven't exhausted rhythm rhythm, uh,

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Speaker 1: and we'll come back to it. But it's interesting you're

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Speaker 1: We've talked a lot to a lot of singer songwriters

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Speaker 1: on this show who hate the kind of label the

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Speaker 1: confessional singer songwriter. No one's hung that on you, but

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Speaker 1: you've written some incredibly deeply personal lyrics. Yeah. I think

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Speaker 1: maybe part of the reason that hasn't been hung on

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Speaker 1: me is I don't even think until recently, the words

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Speaker 1: songwriter has been hung on me a lot. I think

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Speaker 1: that I started off by treating the songs with almost disrespect,

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Speaker 1: that my band distorted over them. We played too fast,

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Speaker 1: we covered things up, we over arranged kind of because

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Speaker 1: that was exciting to us. Saw that would have been

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Speaker 1: if they were a Barry Manilow song or an Elton

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Speaker 1: Johnson we were very seventies kind of those songs would

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Speaker 1: have been treated with such respect, space for the vocal,

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Speaker 1: you know, proper, proper production treatment. But we just stopped

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Speaker 1: through them because that was the punk rock era and

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Speaker 1: in a way we were maybe ashamed of the of

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Speaker 1: the overthinking of the songs as a result. Kind of,

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Speaker 1: I feel like in my career people didn't. Really my

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Speaker 1: fans did, but in general I never really saw myself

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Speaker 1: mentioned that often kind of as a songwriter. First usually

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Speaker 1: it was about the showmanship or my piano playing, or

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Speaker 1: the band, the fact that we didn't have a guitar.

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Speaker 1: And then there was you know, a brick as brick

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Speaker 1: as a hit, maybe about the fact that it was

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Speaker 1: about an abortion, but not about the writing of it.

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Speaker 1: Then you'd see someone I don't know, like like ohmy

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Speaker 1: have mine, like Ryan Adams always talking about a songwriting,

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Speaker 1: or Jeff Tweedy and always talking about their songwriting. So

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Speaker 1: I don't really I think maybe some of it is

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Speaker 1: because I was so cavalier about it that no matter

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Speaker 1: what kind of song I wrote, that wasn't front and

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Speaker 1: center of what people have talked about, So that that

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Speaker 1: does make a difference, I think in perception. Also, my

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Speaker 1: instinct was that if you're writing a song, and this

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Speaker 1: is where I do a lot of thinking, if you're

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Speaker 1: writing a song that is against someone like you did

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Speaker 1: this and you did that, it's a real finger pointy song.

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Speaker 1: We all way too often we demonize the person we're

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Speaker 1: pointing the finger at. There are no redeeming qualities that person.

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Speaker 1: And I love Fiona Apple, but like listening to a

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Speaker 1: lot of songs, I mean the person she's singing about

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Speaker 1: half the time that this maybe may as well be satan.

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Speaker 1: I have a feeling if I met the guy, I

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Speaker 1: could have a beer with him and actually find redeeming qualities.

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Speaker 1: So although I think she's amazing at writing that I

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Speaker 1: never personally wanted to do that, I think that that

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Speaker 1: that you will get looked at more as a confessional

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Speaker 1: singer songwriter. If you make a cartoon out of yourself,

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Speaker 1: I should say in the book you explained people though

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Speaker 1: the song Brick that it really was it was based

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Speaker 1: on her. Yes, a real time in your life, your

395
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Speaker 1: girlfriend and senior year high school was pregnant. Ye, you

396
00:22:18,476 --> 00:22:23,796
Speaker 1: decided having abortions very troubling time for you, awful. I

397
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Speaker 1: didn't realize the degree to which a lot of the

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Speaker 1: writing was taken from real life. But I don't know

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Speaker 1: how you came up with it. Musically, that's an interesting one.

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Speaker 1: It goes against and that's why I said, I don't

401
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Speaker 1: know what the hell I'm talking about. When I try

402
00:22:37,916 --> 00:22:41,356
Speaker 1: to describe myself. It's the opposite of what I've been saying.

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Speaker 1: I mean, brick is is exactly what happened in high

404
00:22:45,276 --> 00:22:47,676
Speaker 1: school with a rhyme to it. So I just did

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Speaker 1: the opposite with them. But as I say, the couple

406
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Speaker 1: times i've I've been very sort of literal and more confessional.

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Speaker 1: They have been successful. You know. A song like Brick

408
00:22:57,596 --> 00:23:00,676
Speaker 1: was about sitting down my my my friend, the drummer

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Speaker 1: Darren Jesse had the chorus, which is a brick and

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Speaker 1: I'm drawn it. He had that and he was like,

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Speaker 1: I think that's a good churuse, what do you think.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, well, I think it's great. What does it mean?

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Speaker 1: Because I have no idea? Huh okay? And I literally

414
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Speaker 1: heat the lyrics as well. Head lyrics as well. It

415
00:23:15,956 --> 00:23:19,236
Speaker 1: was just She's a brick and I'm drowned slowly off

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Speaker 1: the coast, headed nowhere. That was four short lines. That's

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00:23:24,076 --> 00:23:25,996
Speaker 1: the whole song that he had written, or that's the

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00:23:25,996 --> 00:23:29,556
Speaker 1: whole contribution. Happens to be the chorus, happens to have

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Speaker 1: made it a hit, huge contribution. But then I thought,

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Speaker 1: what does this make me feel? Like? I felt like that,

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Speaker 1: you know, slowed down a little bit, and then you

422
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Speaker 1: know his and so this occurred to me, and then

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Speaker 1: I just felt like telling the story of what happened

424
00:23:58,036 --> 00:23:59,836
Speaker 1: in high school. It just all came to me really

425
00:23:59,876 --> 00:24:03,316
Speaker 1: really fast, like the story of what happened. I almost

426
00:24:03,316 --> 00:24:09,036
Speaker 1: considered an experiment, I think, to to write bone headed

427
00:24:09,276 --> 00:24:11,436
Speaker 1: about what happened. But I didn't see any other way

428
00:24:11,476 --> 00:24:13,796
Speaker 1: to do that song. And I had cover now because

429
00:24:13,796 --> 00:24:17,076
Speaker 1: I had this ambiguous chorus. It's funny that a lot

430
00:24:17,076 --> 00:24:20,796
Speaker 1: of times I'll have like suddenly i'll see my Twitter

431
00:24:20,836 --> 00:24:23,716
Speaker 1: blow up and it'll be all these people who have

432
00:24:23,956 --> 00:24:28,996
Speaker 1: like maybe the topic of the day's abortion, and they're

433
00:24:29,076 --> 00:24:33,796
Speaker 1: pretty critical of me. They're pretty mean, actually, people I

434
00:24:33,796 --> 00:24:36,636
Speaker 1: don't know saying ky this guy made a million bucks

435
00:24:36,676 --> 00:24:39,116
Speaker 1: singing about his girlfriend's abortion. He made her do and

436
00:24:39,156 --> 00:24:41,356
Speaker 1: he hates her guts, and he's sending her out to

437
00:24:41,396 --> 00:24:43,436
Speaker 1: the ocean and all this stuff. And they've read all

438
00:24:43,436 --> 00:24:45,556
Speaker 1: this stuff into the lyrics, and I think about the

439
00:24:45,636 --> 00:24:50,036
Speaker 1: actual circumstances and how much care there was between the

440
00:24:50,036 --> 00:24:51,796
Speaker 1: two of us, and what a decision that was, and

441
00:24:51,876 --> 00:24:54,756
Speaker 1: how not black and white the world is, and I

442
00:24:54,836 --> 00:25:00,836
Speaker 1: see this come through. But often what seems to bother

443
00:25:00,956 --> 00:25:03,436
Speaker 1: than the most is the chorus. Well, Darren wrote the

444
00:25:03,476 --> 00:25:06,556
Speaker 1: chorus in a vacuum, and I just took the feeling

445
00:25:06,596 --> 00:25:09,636
Speaker 1: of it and went with it. It's actually probably a

446
00:25:09,756 --> 00:25:17,556
Speaker 1: pretty seemful bad method of throwing a song together. It's

447
00:25:17,716 --> 00:25:20,196
Speaker 1: very haphazard. I just took that chorus, which I don't

448
00:25:20,236 --> 00:25:23,396
Speaker 1: still even understand, but it made me feel something, so

449
00:25:23,436 --> 00:25:26,276
Speaker 1: I went with that. As a songwriter, sometimes where you know,

450
00:25:26,316 --> 00:25:28,076
Speaker 1: they say, you know, you don't learn how to write

451
00:25:28,076 --> 00:25:30,116
Speaker 1: a book, You learn how to write the book you're on.

452
00:25:30,516 --> 00:25:32,436
Speaker 1: So on that song, I'm like, how do you write

453
00:25:32,436 --> 00:25:34,156
Speaker 1: a song? Well, I don't know. This makes me feel this,

454
00:25:34,276 --> 00:25:35,836
Speaker 1: and I'll just go with it. It was on the

455
00:25:35,956 --> 00:25:39,036
Speaker 1: record before I could even really protest the idea that

456
00:25:39,076 --> 00:25:41,676
Speaker 1: I had written something so personal. I just needed another

457
00:25:41,716 --> 00:25:43,596
Speaker 1: song for the record, and I felt that out of

458
00:25:43,596 --> 00:25:46,596
Speaker 1: that and there you go. Luckily, I feel like the

459
00:25:46,676 --> 00:25:50,356
Speaker 1: song lyrics that are in the verse are so true

460
00:25:50,396 --> 00:25:53,996
Speaker 1: to what happened that I feel like I don't feel

461
00:25:53,996 --> 00:25:56,716
Speaker 1: like I'm going to be sent to some some some

462
00:25:56,796 --> 00:26:00,236
Speaker 1: kind of you know, social movement, hell or anything for

463
00:26:00,316 --> 00:26:03,756
Speaker 1: that song at this point, just simply because I was

464
00:26:03,796 --> 00:26:05,836
Speaker 1: just telling the truth. And I feel like at the

465
00:26:05,876 --> 00:26:09,516
Speaker 1: end of the day that that does weigh something. You

466
00:26:09,596 --> 00:26:12,356
Speaker 1: have a great quote which I want to read. There's many,

467
00:26:12,356 --> 00:26:15,076
Speaker 1: many great parts of this book. I encourage everybody to

468
00:26:15,076 --> 00:26:19,956
Speaker 1: read it. I'm going to read just a couple of

469
00:26:19,996 --> 00:26:23,956
Speaker 1: lines which I think to me really jumped out. From

470
00:26:23,956 --> 00:26:27,196
Speaker 1: time to time, we all catch a split second glance

471
00:26:27,196 --> 00:26:30,716
Speaker 1: of a stranger in a storefront window before realizing it's

472
00:26:30,716 --> 00:26:34,436
Speaker 1: our own reflection. A songwriter's job is to see that guy,

473
00:26:35,156 --> 00:26:37,916
Speaker 1: not the one posing straight on in the bathroom mirror.

474
00:26:38,716 --> 00:26:42,156
Speaker 1: I feel like a song has to have moments that

475
00:26:42,316 --> 00:26:44,596
Speaker 1: snuck up on you the way that I described it,

476
00:26:44,636 --> 00:26:46,516
Speaker 1: That's the way I see it. Because you'll see someone

477
00:26:46,556 --> 00:26:50,756
Speaker 1: in a storefront, you will think, you'll think something about them.

478
00:26:50,956 --> 00:26:53,996
Speaker 1: You might think Kyle, what's that guy wearing? Or there's

479
00:26:54,036 --> 00:26:57,196
Speaker 1: a handsome motherfucker there. You'll think something, but you're not

480
00:26:57,356 --> 00:27:01,276
Speaker 1: placing your own self awareness on to it. And it's

481
00:27:01,316 --> 00:27:04,396
Speaker 1: so rare. We hear our voices inside our own heads.

482
00:27:04,396 --> 00:27:06,036
Speaker 1: We never get to get out of that. But a

483
00:27:06,116 --> 00:27:09,356
Speaker 1: songwriter really needs to have a moment to find that

484
00:27:10,116 --> 00:27:12,756
Speaker 1: hook or crook. However you can find it, and it's

485
00:27:12,796 --> 00:27:16,196
Speaker 1: probably brief and you probably have to remember that. Like

486
00:27:16,436 --> 00:27:20,676
Speaker 1: to me, it feels like sometimes it's in a chill

487
00:27:22,076 --> 00:27:26,636
Speaker 1: hair standing up that I get while building a song

488
00:27:27,996 --> 00:27:30,676
Speaker 1: and it never comes back. It's not like that line

489
00:27:30,716 --> 00:27:32,876
Speaker 1: does it to me anymore? But I have to remember

490
00:27:34,236 --> 00:27:37,516
Speaker 1: that happened, you know, because as you start to craft

491
00:27:37,516 --> 00:27:41,836
Speaker 1: a song, especially when you're crafting the extent that I do,

492
00:27:41,876 --> 00:27:44,436
Speaker 1: you have to hang on to that little innocent moment

493
00:27:44,436 --> 00:27:46,996
Speaker 1: that you weren't self aware, that you didn't know that

494
00:27:47,116 --> 00:27:49,716
Speaker 1: was you, because now you're putting the microscope on it.

495
00:27:49,756 --> 00:27:52,116
Speaker 1: So watch those edits, you know, watch the ones where

496
00:27:52,116 --> 00:27:54,356
Speaker 1: you're trying to make yourself look better, or the ones

497
00:27:54,356 --> 00:27:57,436
Speaker 1: where you're you know, aiming your head into the mirror

498
00:27:57,516 --> 00:27:59,676
Speaker 1: just perfect so you get that perfect angle on your

499
00:27:59,756 --> 00:28:02,196
Speaker 1: chin like you don't don't do that, Like you can't

500
00:28:02,236 --> 00:28:06,356
Speaker 1: do that in a song and have it survive with honesty.

501
00:28:06,596 --> 00:28:10,276
Speaker 1: Can you think of example songs that where you think

502
00:28:10,316 --> 00:28:12,356
Speaker 1: you've had that moment you were able to hang onto it.

503
00:28:12,516 --> 00:28:15,156
Speaker 1: I think every song that I've written has has them.

504
00:28:15,236 --> 00:28:19,596
Speaker 1: That's why I that's why they have survived. Um. And

505
00:28:19,636 --> 00:28:22,356
Speaker 1: it's not like you can say it's one line. It's

506
00:28:22,396 --> 00:28:26,516
Speaker 1: something that it's a it's like an environment that is

507
00:28:26,556 --> 00:28:29,636
Speaker 1: created by the song, where that that it seeps into

508
00:28:29,676 --> 00:28:31,956
Speaker 1: the rest of the song. It's in its attitude, it's

509
00:28:31,956 --> 00:28:37,516
Speaker 1: in the way the chords move. You may decide on

510
00:28:36,956 --> 00:28:39,596
Speaker 1: a on a lilt or something that you don't know

511
00:28:39,676 --> 00:28:41,996
Speaker 1: why you're doing that, like it's it's a cadence. I

512
00:28:42,036 --> 00:28:44,756
Speaker 1: wish I could say. I mean sometimes they can be lines.

513
00:28:44,756 --> 00:28:50,436
Speaker 1: There's a line that lines can surprise you with what

514
00:28:50,596 --> 00:28:53,716
Speaker 1: was there that you didn't know and you can discover

515
00:28:53,756 --> 00:28:58,196
Speaker 1: them later. Um. Very simple one was the song Phone

516
00:28:58,196 --> 00:28:59,916
Speaker 1: in a Pool, which I use a lot in the book.

517
00:29:00,436 --> 00:29:03,156
Speaker 1: It's not really that well known song of mine. It's

518
00:29:03,196 --> 00:29:06,836
Speaker 1: in the later part of my catalog, which, um, you know,

519
00:29:06,916 --> 00:29:09,876
Speaker 1: record sell fewer and fewer each time. I'm so probably

520
00:29:09,956 --> 00:29:14,236
Speaker 1: fewer people know the song, but it's a moment where

521
00:29:14,276 --> 00:29:17,996
Speaker 1: I said, what's what's been good for the music hasn't

522
00:29:17,996 --> 00:29:21,276
Speaker 1: always been so good for the life. Kind of rhyme

523
00:29:21,356 --> 00:29:23,796
Speaker 1: to kind of fit seemed right, gave me the little chill.

524
00:29:23,996 --> 00:29:25,836
Speaker 1: Didn't think about it. When I was writing the book.

525
00:29:25,876 --> 00:29:27,756
Speaker 1: It kept coming up. I could have used that like

526
00:29:27,836 --> 00:29:32,836
Speaker 1: every other every other chapter pretty easily. Can you can

527
00:29:32,876 --> 00:29:36,556
Speaker 1: you just play those lines from Phone in the Pool? Yeah,

528
00:29:36,636 --> 00:29:38,116
Speaker 1: because it's, by the way, it was based on you

529
00:29:38,116 --> 00:29:40,476
Speaker 1: actually throwing your phone in a pool. That's right, Yeah,

530
00:29:40,596 --> 00:29:43,316
Speaker 1: I mean nothing nothing to the experience of the song. Really,

531
00:29:43,636 --> 00:29:47,556
Speaker 1: that what what what inspired the song is really in

532
00:29:47,596 --> 00:29:50,476
Speaker 1: there and would have been probably a good journal entry.

533
00:29:50,716 --> 00:29:55,036
Speaker 1: You know, I was. I had so many competing phone calls.

534
00:29:55,076 --> 00:29:56,836
Speaker 1: I was in the middle of one of those terrible

535
00:29:56,956 --> 00:30:00,916
Speaker 1: texting shit shows with three parties, and I just walked

536
00:30:00,916 --> 00:30:03,236
Speaker 1: off stage. I mean, I felt like, you know, I'm

537
00:30:03,236 --> 00:30:05,796
Speaker 1: the least important person at this moment in this texting

538
00:30:05,796 --> 00:30:07,996
Speaker 1: when I'm getting my ass kicked by three direct But

539
00:30:08,076 --> 00:30:09,836
Speaker 1: I mean I have some respect. It's got awful work.

540
00:30:09,996 --> 00:30:12,036
Speaker 1: Like I just kind of felt like, ah, sick of this.

541
00:30:12,236 --> 00:30:16,036
Speaker 1: I hate phones and I was walking by the pool

542
00:30:16,156 --> 00:30:22,516
Speaker 1: at the sunset Marquee in Los Angeles, and I just reflexively,

543
00:30:22,596 --> 00:30:24,516
Speaker 1: no one else was there. I thought I threw it

544
00:30:24,556 --> 00:30:27,356
Speaker 1: in the pool and it went then under the bottom.

545
00:30:27,396 --> 00:30:29,756
Speaker 1: And then this voice comes out of the shadows. Ben

546
00:30:29,996 --> 00:30:32,876
Speaker 1: is that you like? Looked over and it was Kesha

547
00:30:33,356 --> 00:30:35,636
Speaker 1: and she was pulling off a hoodie. She's just been

548
00:30:35,716 --> 00:30:39,556
Speaker 1: chased by paparazzi and came through the bush. So she goes,

549
00:30:39,596 --> 00:30:41,436
Speaker 1: what did you just do? And I was like, I

550
00:30:41,596 --> 00:30:43,836
Speaker 1: threw my phone in the pool. Why did you do that?

551
00:30:44,756 --> 00:30:46,876
Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm sick of it. And she's like,

552
00:30:47,356 --> 00:30:49,196
Speaker 1: don't do that, and she jumped in with all her

553
00:30:49,236 --> 00:30:51,556
Speaker 1: clothes on and she went under the bottom of the

554
00:30:51,556 --> 00:30:53,396
Speaker 1: pool and got my phone. She's like, you know, you

555
00:30:53,436 --> 00:30:55,676
Speaker 1: should put this in rice. That's you know, mine fell

556
00:30:55,716 --> 00:30:57,076
Speaker 1: on the toilet and I looked on the internet. You

557
00:30:57,116 --> 00:30:58,916
Speaker 1: put it in rice and then don't turn it on

558
00:30:59,036 --> 00:31:02,156
Speaker 1: until it's dry and it'll fix the phone. That's where

559
00:31:02,196 --> 00:31:05,836
Speaker 1: the song came from. Nothing about that in the actual song,

560
00:31:07,356 --> 00:31:17,956
Speaker 1: because of course it's just like throw my phone in again.

561
00:31:20,116 --> 00:31:22,556
Speaker 1: So that's the course of it. Uh, let's see what's

562
00:31:24,116 --> 00:31:29,876
Speaker 1: what's been good for always been so good for the life.

563
00:31:30,676 --> 00:31:32,596
Speaker 1: I guess I was kind of like, you know, throwing

564
00:31:32,636 --> 00:31:36,876
Speaker 1: a phone in the pool. That has consequences, you know,

565
00:31:36,996 --> 00:31:38,716
Speaker 1: like an I I have to go down to Verizon

566
00:31:38,836 --> 00:31:40,996
Speaker 1: or whatever and staying in line with people and get

567
00:31:41,036 --> 00:31:44,396
Speaker 1: a phone. It costs money. Someone built the phone. People

568
00:31:44,396 --> 00:31:46,476
Speaker 1: can't get in touch with me anymore, you know, like

569
00:31:46,676 --> 00:31:48,476
Speaker 1: like like in real life. I was thinking, you know,

570
00:31:49,676 --> 00:31:52,716
Speaker 1: being a kamakage in your music, what's good for the music? Yeah? Sure,

571
00:31:52,796 --> 00:31:55,476
Speaker 1: but you don't just walk by the pool and throw

572
00:31:55,516 --> 00:31:57,396
Speaker 1: your phone in. That's not what grown ups do. So

573
00:31:57,516 --> 00:31:59,636
Speaker 1: that's what I meant by the line. Well before you

574
00:31:59,716 --> 00:32:03,596
Speaker 1: threw the phone in the pool, long before you used

575
00:32:03,596 --> 00:32:06,436
Speaker 1: to throw your piano stool. Yeah, at your piano. You

576
00:32:06,516 --> 00:32:08,876
Speaker 1: know you're sitting at a beautiful Yamaha. I think it's

577
00:32:08,916 --> 00:32:12,756
Speaker 1: a having foot Yeah, um you we. I should mention

578
00:32:12,876 --> 00:32:15,236
Speaker 1: you used to have a deal with Steinway. I did

579
00:32:15,636 --> 00:32:19,436
Speaker 1: until you broke one of their pianos throwing her. Yeah

580
00:32:20,396 --> 00:32:25,796
Speaker 1: I didn't. I I threw a stool as show biz

581
00:32:25,916 --> 00:32:28,716
Speaker 1: on a television show. Um it was our debut on

582
00:32:28,796 --> 00:32:34,716
Speaker 1: television in Australia, and um it very much, very much

583
00:32:34,796 --> 00:32:38,236
Speaker 1: upset the host of the show, um whose piano it

584
00:32:38,476 --> 00:32:42,916
Speaker 1: was go to figure. We thought it was a rental.

585
00:32:43,036 --> 00:32:45,236
Speaker 1: We were always prepared to pay if I mess something up.

586
00:32:45,276 --> 00:32:47,876
Speaker 1: But I really didn't break many pianos. I I told

587
00:32:47,876 --> 00:32:50,236
Speaker 1: about the two times I did break pianos, I felt horrible.

588
00:32:50,356 --> 00:32:54,196
Speaker 1: One was his grandmother's family heirloom stein away from the

589
00:32:55,396 --> 00:32:58,716
Speaker 1: eight nineteenth century. And I was a jerk and I

590
00:32:58,716 --> 00:33:01,556
Speaker 1: should have though I didn't think you got a lot

591
00:33:01,596 --> 00:33:05,196
Speaker 1: of You acted out a lot on stage. I was

592
00:33:05,236 --> 00:33:08,676
Speaker 1: a piano player totally, a lot of flipping off the audience,

593
00:33:09,236 --> 00:33:12,716
Speaker 1: a lot of plants down, flip off the audience. I played.

594
00:33:12,716 --> 00:33:16,676
Speaker 1: I remember playing a show we just started promoting Brick,

595
00:33:17,156 --> 00:33:19,396
Speaker 1: and we were playing a pretty big sold out show

596
00:33:19,476 --> 00:33:23,116
Speaker 1: in Princeton, and this was getting exciting. And I started

597
00:33:23,156 --> 00:33:25,196
Speaker 1: playing Brick and some people were talking. So I could

598
00:33:25,236 --> 00:33:27,476
Speaker 1: play that with one hand, play with one hand, and

599
00:33:27,556 --> 00:33:30,596
Speaker 1: I sang the song and just with my middle finger

600
00:33:30,676 --> 00:33:33,076
Speaker 1: in the air while while I did it. It's crazy,

601
00:33:33,076 --> 00:33:35,276
Speaker 1: it's silly stuff like that. I remember playing the introduction

602
00:33:36,036 --> 00:33:39,356
Speaker 1: to Brick one time for maybe twenty minutes till they

603
00:33:39,396 --> 00:33:41,756
Speaker 1: cut the power off. I didn't even start the song.

604
00:33:41,876 --> 00:33:43,716
Speaker 1: I just did the introduction. I don't know why. I

605
00:33:43,836 --> 00:33:50,196
Speaker 1: just come from I just you know, some of probably

606
00:33:50,396 --> 00:33:53,996
Speaker 1: my let's say that I would say that that was

607
00:33:54,156 --> 00:33:56,596
Speaker 1: the rest of the steam control of my parents. If

608
00:33:56,636 --> 00:33:59,956
Speaker 1: I had to say my parents upbringing, you know, like

609
00:34:00,196 --> 00:34:03,556
Speaker 1: that was my angry Yeah, I mean I was not

610
00:34:03,676 --> 00:34:06,756
Speaker 1: that unusual for young men to be angry. I don't

611
00:34:06,796 --> 00:34:09,596
Speaker 1: guess a angry young man like it's a cliche. That

612
00:34:09,836 --> 00:34:11,876
Speaker 1: was me, you know when that was I was so

613
00:34:12,076 --> 00:34:13,956
Speaker 1: fortunate to be able to do. I took it out

614
00:34:13,956 --> 00:34:17,556
Speaker 1: in two ways, comically by acting like a complete clown

615
00:34:18,036 --> 00:34:21,116
Speaker 1: and doing things that were totally self destructive. Remember doing

616
00:34:21,156 --> 00:34:23,396
Speaker 1: a big interview on MTV where you can't see this

617
00:34:23,476 --> 00:34:25,836
Speaker 1: over the radio or over a podcast, but I stuck

618
00:34:25,916 --> 00:34:30,516
Speaker 1: the bottom of my jaw out. You know, I don't

619
00:34:30,556 --> 00:34:32,716
Speaker 1: know why I did that. I couldn't tell you. I

620
00:34:32,796 --> 00:34:34,316
Speaker 1: just I guess I didn't want to be on MTV

621
00:34:34,436 --> 00:34:36,356
Speaker 1: that day, or I thought it was funny, or there

622
00:34:36,436 --> 00:34:38,956
Speaker 1: was something self destructive about it. That kind of It's

623
00:34:38,996 --> 00:34:41,716
Speaker 1: like pushing on a sore tooth, like he has sore tooth,

624
00:34:41,716 --> 00:34:43,636
Speaker 1: and you just feel like, howd of curiosity you'll press

625
00:34:43,676 --> 00:34:47,236
Speaker 1: on it? I think that makes for an attractive rock star,

626
00:34:47,516 --> 00:34:49,676
Speaker 1: especially if you're playing piano. I mean, I can see

627
00:34:49,716 --> 00:34:53,196
Speaker 1: the marketability in it too. Everyone likes the you know,

628
00:34:53,516 --> 00:34:55,716
Speaker 1: we like that. And then I think at the point

629
00:34:55,796 --> 00:34:58,236
Speaker 1: that those things snowball, you know, like if you start

630
00:34:58,316 --> 00:35:00,516
Speaker 1: into a temper and then it just takes over. Needs

631
00:35:00,556 --> 00:35:02,556
Speaker 1: to stop. You needed to stop it. Was there a

632
00:35:02,636 --> 00:35:05,076
Speaker 1: point you thought, yeah, this needs to stop. Yes, I

633
00:35:05,316 --> 00:35:09,876
Speaker 1: realized that many things about my life from my career

634
00:35:10,796 --> 00:35:14,356
Speaker 1: weren't going my way, and I found myself in circumstances

635
00:35:14,396 --> 00:35:16,676
Speaker 1: which were much more grown up, you know, like I'm

636
00:35:17,116 --> 00:35:21,676
Speaker 1: really became concerned about music education for kids, Like, Wow,

637
00:35:21,756 --> 00:35:25,476
Speaker 1: what I gained so much for having music in my class?

638
00:35:25,556 --> 00:35:27,796
Speaker 1: Can I give back a little bit? Well, the more

639
00:35:27,876 --> 00:35:30,396
Speaker 1: you do that, it's just kind of like not nice

640
00:35:30,436 --> 00:35:32,436
Speaker 1: for me to walk on stage at the Kennedy Center

641
00:35:32,476 --> 00:35:36,316
Speaker 1: and talk about music therapy, curate a night of symphonic music,

642
00:35:36,716 --> 00:35:38,596
Speaker 1: and then go to the rock club next door and

643
00:35:38,716 --> 00:35:41,076
Speaker 1: smash a bunch of shit, flip off the audience, and

644
00:35:41,276 --> 00:35:44,316
Speaker 1: cuss all night. I just doesn't seem like the same person.

645
00:35:44,396 --> 00:35:46,116
Speaker 1: I felt like I needed to grow up. I'm not

646
00:35:46,236 --> 00:35:48,516
Speaker 1: precious about it. I'm quite happy to do any of

647
00:35:48,556 --> 00:35:50,356
Speaker 1: that stuff. I thought it was funny, but it can

648
00:35:50,556 --> 00:35:54,036
Speaker 1: become it's like a gag reflex. It's like once you

649
00:35:54,116 --> 00:35:56,116
Speaker 1: start gagging, you know, like you need to kind of

650
00:35:56,156 --> 00:35:59,636
Speaker 1: stop yourself. We'll be back with ben Folds after the break.

651
00:36:04,236 --> 00:36:07,356
Speaker 1: We're back with the rest of Bruce's conversation with ben Folds.

652
00:36:07,876 --> 00:36:12,716
Speaker 1: There's another theme in your book, which is about being cool.

653
00:36:12,836 --> 00:36:16,236
Speaker 1: You never felt cool, and I think you always wrestled

654
00:36:16,316 --> 00:36:20,476
Speaker 1: with what was cool, what wasn't cool? Should we be cool?

655
00:36:20,556 --> 00:36:23,436
Speaker 1: I think you mentioned you mentioned some of your early

656
00:36:23,476 --> 00:36:25,996
Speaker 1: albums you really almost played over the songs because you

657
00:36:26,076 --> 00:36:28,876
Speaker 1: wanted to kind of and you wanted a punk rock

658
00:36:28,916 --> 00:36:31,036
Speaker 1: attitude even though you were doing these kind of songs.

659
00:36:31,396 --> 00:36:35,836
Speaker 1: And then, incredibly, the lesson is kind of crystallized by

660
00:36:35,956 --> 00:36:39,476
Speaker 1: William Shatner. Yeah, can you just tell a little bit

661
00:36:39,516 --> 00:36:41,916
Speaker 1: of that story because it's a great story. So in

662
00:36:42,036 --> 00:36:46,516
Speaker 1: the studio it was Shatner and me and Joe Jackson

663
00:36:46,596 --> 00:36:48,996
Speaker 1: for a lot of it. We're talking about Joe Jackson,

664
00:36:49,036 --> 00:36:52,756
Speaker 1: the British singer. Jackson, the British sing not Michael's father. Right,

665
00:36:52,876 --> 00:36:56,556
Speaker 1: that's great. Yeah, I didn't get anything from that guy. Um,

666
00:36:57,956 --> 00:37:01,236
Speaker 1: I won't even make a joke there. Um, listen to

667
00:37:01,436 --> 00:37:04,076
Speaker 1: ord Joe said. You know, I wasn't allowing myself to

668
00:37:04,156 --> 00:37:07,556
Speaker 1: have a mentor. But here's another guy, you know, William Shatnell.

669
00:37:07,596 --> 00:37:09,636
Speaker 1: He's not a musician, so it's not a threat. He

670
00:37:09,836 --> 00:37:12,316
Speaker 1: in a He's in an industry where it's okay to

671
00:37:12,396 --> 00:37:14,836
Speaker 1: be older as an actor, so maybe I was more

672
00:37:14,916 --> 00:37:17,276
Speaker 1: open for whatever reason. He told me something I needed

673
00:37:17,316 --> 00:37:21,196
Speaker 1: to hear, which he said, Benny, what is cool? And

674
00:37:21,276 --> 00:37:23,116
Speaker 1: I was like, what do you mean? He goes, you

675
00:37:23,236 --> 00:37:25,836
Speaker 1: have said the word cool? Oh the day long? Like

676
00:37:25,916 --> 00:37:28,436
Speaker 1: he just like was pounding me about this cool thing.

677
00:37:28,476 --> 00:37:30,196
Speaker 1: And I was like, well, why should explain? You were

678
00:37:30,236 --> 00:37:32,476
Speaker 1: producing his record? Yeah, yeah, it's back up. I was

679
00:37:32,556 --> 00:37:35,556
Speaker 1: producing William Shatner's record and writing a lot of the

680
00:37:35,676 --> 00:37:38,596
Speaker 1: music for it and bringing the songs of his life

681
00:37:39,076 --> 00:37:42,876
Speaker 1: to music. I think it's a great record. I say

682
00:37:42,916 --> 00:37:44,796
Speaker 1: in the book, it's one of my proudest moments. You

683
00:37:44,876 --> 00:37:46,556
Speaker 1: don't get the chance to make a record that's never

684
00:37:46,596 --> 00:37:48,796
Speaker 1: been made. That record was never made before or after

685
00:37:48,876 --> 00:37:52,316
Speaker 1: a beautiful record. And that's because of that's because of

686
00:37:52,356 --> 00:37:57,076
Speaker 1: Shatner's willingness to be vulnerable and willingness to be for

687
00:37:57,196 --> 00:37:58,916
Speaker 1: real and not worry about what was cool and what

688
00:37:59,036 --> 00:38:01,676
Speaker 1: was not. You know if someone said was that take good?

689
00:38:01,676 --> 00:38:03,876
Speaker 1: And said, yeah, cool, you want to go to dinner? Cool?

690
00:38:04,876 --> 00:38:07,596
Speaker 1: I think that vocal was cooler than the other. Would

691
00:38:07,596 --> 00:38:08,956
Speaker 1: it be cool if we did this? And it's like

692
00:38:10,516 --> 00:38:12,676
Speaker 1: he's like, there's a lot of words in the English language, Benny,

693
00:38:12,996 --> 00:38:14,556
Speaker 1: because you don't have to use that one for you.

694
00:38:14,836 --> 00:38:16,676
Speaker 1: What's your what's your hang up with it? What is cool?

695
00:38:17,076 --> 00:38:19,196
Speaker 1: I was like, you know, cools this or cools that?

696
00:38:19,276 --> 00:38:20,996
Speaker 1: Because no, no, no, no, I need you to define

697
00:38:21,036 --> 00:38:25,316
Speaker 1: the word that is so so such a wide net

698
00:38:25,476 --> 00:38:28,196
Speaker 1: that it can mean everything that you made it mean today.

699
00:38:28,636 --> 00:38:31,436
Speaker 1: Can you do that? No? I can't, because we'll think

700
00:38:31,476 --> 00:38:33,596
Speaker 1: about using other words then and think about what your

701
00:38:33,636 --> 00:38:35,876
Speaker 1: hang up with that word is? Why are you so

702
00:38:36,036 --> 00:38:38,356
Speaker 1: hung up with that word? And I thought about It's like, well,

703
00:38:38,356 --> 00:38:40,756
Speaker 1: I didn't realize that I was, but I guess I am.

704
00:38:41,036 --> 00:38:43,236
Speaker 1: But I started noticing my my my peers were all

705
00:38:43,276 --> 00:38:46,356
Speaker 1: the same. They're staying cool all day long too. I

706
00:38:46,476 --> 00:38:50,436
Speaker 1: started to think that cool itself probably damn near ruined music.

707
00:38:50,516 --> 00:38:52,836
Speaker 1: In my era, people were so much more concerned with

708
00:38:52,956 --> 00:38:56,876
Speaker 1: being cool than they were like good music sometimes that

709
00:38:57,436 --> 00:38:59,996
Speaker 1: you know, they often made music, good music despite it,

710
00:39:00,116 --> 00:39:06,876
Speaker 1: No one talks about how incredibly I would say, I'm

711
00:39:06,916 --> 00:39:09,436
Speaker 1: trying to choose a better word than cool, because honestly

712
00:39:09,476 --> 00:39:13,796
Speaker 1: I just about say cool, How incredibly cool. Kirk Cobain's

713
00:39:13,876 --> 00:39:20,836
Speaker 1: chords were, They're so interesting. His voice leading is very interesting. Well,

714
00:39:20,876 --> 00:39:23,556
Speaker 1: no one ever talked about that. You know, he did

715
00:39:23,596 --> 00:39:25,316
Speaker 1: the ultimate cool thing you could do in The Knights,

716
00:39:25,316 --> 00:39:28,196
Speaker 1: which is he killed himself. What cooler? He put his

717
00:39:28,276 --> 00:39:31,076
Speaker 1: money where his mouth was. We were also fucking miserable

718
00:39:31,116 --> 00:39:33,636
Speaker 1: in the Nyes and he like did it. I think

719
00:39:33,676 --> 00:39:35,876
Speaker 1: it's terrible. It's a terrible thing to celebrate the man for,

720
00:39:36,476 --> 00:39:38,556
Speaker 1: to celebrate him for that. You know, I remember talking

721
00:39:38,596 --> 00:39:41,556
Speaker 1: Dalliot Smith and he was horrified that people were celebrating

722
00:39:41,636 --> 00:39:47,356
Speaker 1: the depressive part of his songs. He didn't seem as depressive.

723
00:39:47,756 --> 00:39:50,156
Speaker 1: He was offended by that. It's like, these are songs

724
00:39:50,236 --> 00:39:52,916
Speaker 1: that are getting me through. There's positivity in them. I'm

725
00:39:52,956 --> 00:39:55,236
Speaker 1: going somewhere. I've written this song. It's a beautiful song.

726
00:39:55,596 --> 00:39:58,716
Speaker 1: Why is that depressing? Hating when people call my songs depressing?

727
00:39:59,116 --> 00:40:01,116
Speaker 1: Is That was his take on it. One day, and

728
00:40:01,236 --> 00:40:02,676
Speaker 1: so I think we were so caught up with this

729
00:40:02,796 --> 00:40:06,836
Speaker 1: being cool that it did get in the way sometimes

730
00:40:06,876 --> 00:40:09,716
Speaker 1: of just judging something his music. But you know, my

731
00:40:10,076 --> 00:40:12,516
Speaker 1: use of the word cool in songs probably a little

732
00:40:12,556 --> 00:40:15,356
Speaker 1: more interesting because I think what I realized was what

733
00:40:15,596 --> 00:40:19,076
Speaker 1: I didn't feel cool. But then I realized, no one does.

734
00:40:19,316 --> 00:40:22,396
Speaker 1: No one feels like the cool one. Maybe one motherfucker does,

735
00:40:22,436 --> 00:40:25,236
Speaker 1: but mostly mostly people don't feel like they're the cool one. Right,

736
00:40:25,876 --> 00:40:27,996
Speaker 1: So if you write a song where you admit, like

737
00:40:28,156 --> 00:40:30,996
Speaker 1: the song Underground, which starts one of the first songs

738
00:40:31,036 --> 00:40:34,916
Speaker 1: in my career, which goes, I was never cool in school,

739
00:40:35,596 --> 00:40:38,596
Speaker 1: I'm sure you don't remember me. It's a little bit

740
00:40:38,636 --> 00:40:41,916
Speaker 1: of a also a nod to Jesus Christ Superstar, which

741
00:40:41,956 --> 00:40:46,836
Speaker 1: is quoting a musical in the nineties. Really, that's uncool.

742
00:40:47,356 --> 00:40:53,876
Speaker 1: What was the part of Jesus Christ Superstar you acquitting? Oh, okay, fast,

743
00:40:54,356 --> 00:40:58,036
Speaker 1: we have a problem here. Yeah, okay, don't don't get

744
00:40:58,076 --> 00:41:00,716
Speaker 1: me started, because I think I can sing the whole

745
00:41:00,796 --> 00:41:03,596
Speaker 1: Pharisee scene in the original voices, So don't get me

746
00:41:03,716 --> 00:41:06,116
Speaker 1: going awesome. See, but this is that's where it's from,

747
00:41:06,356 --> 00:41:11,876
Speaker 1: and it breaks into the what is it what miracle

748
00:41:11,996 --> 00:41:16,596
Speaker 1: one ro fools. Yeah, that's right. It's no armies fighting,

749
00:41:16,676 --> 00:41:19,916
Speaker 1: no slogans, totally. One thing I'll say for him, Jesus

750
00:41:20,116 --> 00:41:27,036
Speaker 1: is cool at that we because I love that album.

751
00:41:27,276 --> 00:41:33,156
Speaker 1: But that's OKAYO fans, we have a problem here. Yeah.

752
00:41:34,036 --> 00:41:36,316
Speaker 1: I was never cool in school. I'm sure you don't

753
00:41:36,356 --> 00:41:38,356
Speaker 1: remember me. That was where I was coming from. The

754
00:41:38,476 --> 00:41:41,916
Speaker 1: reason that song did so well, especially in places like

755
00:41:42,196 --> 00:41:44,636
Speaker 1: you know in the UK where it charted in the

756
00:41:45,036 --> 00:41:46,716
Speaker 1: top forty, the top ten or something like that has

757
00:41:46,756 --> 00:41:50,196
Speaker 1: a radio hit. Um it is because no one felt cool.

758
00:41:50,876 --> 00:41:54,116
Speaker 1: That was my discovery. You know, like all the rock

759
00:41:54,196 --> 00:41:57,796
Speaker 1: stars before my era came along, most of them were

760
00:41:57,916 --> 00:42:01,596
Speaker 1: really really cool, Like they just seemed like the person

761
00:42:01,716 --> 00:42:04,716
Speaker 1: you wanted to be, but you weren't that person. So

762
00:42:04,916 --> 00:42:07,596
Speaker 1: there needed to be some balance. Who is the who

763
00:42:07,756 --> 00:42:10,156
Speaker 1: is the me up there on the stage that can

764
00:42:10,356 --> 00:42:13,476
Speaker 1: say that they're not cool and struggle with it publicly,

765
00:42:14,436 --> 00:42:16,556
Speaker 1: with what they're gonna wear, not feel like they know

766
00:42:16,636 --> 00:42:18,316
Speaker 1: what to say at the party, feel like they're not

767
00:42:18,436 --> 00:42:20,676
Speaker 1: invited at the party. They're not cool. Those were big

768
00:42:20,796 --> 00:42:23,156
Speaker 1: themes in the in the ben Folds five records, and

769
00:42:23,276 --> 00:42:27,076
Speaker 1: then we played piano living room furniture. Piano's living room

770
00:42:27,116 --> 00:42:29,236
Speaker 1: furniture was not a rock instrument. It's been a rock

771
00:42:29,276 --> 00:42:31,156
Speaker 1: instrument one or two times. The guys had to light

772
00:42:31,236 --> 00:42:33,716
Speaker 1: it on fire to prove that they were cool. I'd

773
00:42:33,796 --> 00:42:36,276
Speaker 1: throw piano stools at to prove that I was cool.

774
00:42:36,476 --> 00:42:39,476
Speaker 1: I mean, you've actually now had a long career. Did

775
00:42:39,516 --> 00:42:40,916
Speaker 1: you always know it was going to work? You went

776
00:42:40,956 --> 00:42:43,276
Speaker 1: through a lot of jobs. Yeah, you work in a

777
00:42:43,396 --> 00:42:46,556
Speaker 1: grocery store, so did I? So I watch that part.

778
00:42:46,876 --> 00:42:50,156
Speaker 1: I didn't work at a Hearty's. But you did a

779
00:42:50,276 --> 00:42:53,276
Speaker 1: lot of stuff. You played. You were a solo polka

780
00:42:53,756 --> 00:42:56,796
Speaker 1: band in a German restaurant. You did a lot of stuff.

781
00:42:57,076 --> 00:43:00,236
Speaker 1: Did you know through all that that your songs were

782
00:43:00,316 --> 00:43:03,796
Speaker 1: going to one day succeed? I think I did on

783
00:43:03,956 --> 00:43:09,396
Speaker 1: some level. I was terminally frustrated and insulted by the

784
00:43:09,516 --> 00:43:14,276
Speaker 1: universe that most of my twenties went by the radio

785
00:43:14,396 --> 00:43:17,636
Speaker 1: played NonStop through the decade, and not a note of

786
00:43:17,716 --> 00:43:19,716
Speaker 1: my music came out of it. I thought people were

787
00:43:19,796 --> 00:43:24,516
Speaker 1: idiots for not putting my music there. That was my

788
00:43:24,676 --> 00:43:28,316
Speaker 1: young man, you know, cockiness about it, And so I

789
00:43:28,516 --> 00:43:32,916
Speaker 1: became pretty pretty bitter. I mean, I was that guy.

790
00:43:33,276 --> 00:43:36,196
Speaker 1: I was like, you know, working these jobs like you know,

791
00:43:36,436 --> 00:43:39,116
Speaker 1: waiting tables or something, or playing like a polka band

792
00:43:39,196 --> 00:43:44,236
Speaker 1: like you said, and feeling like, you know, I deserved

793
00:43:44,356 --> 00:43:47,796
Speaker 1: way more and my songs are the best songs ever written.

794
00:43:47,836 --> 00:43:51,196
Speaker 1: And I thought all that stuff what happened. When it happened,

795
00:43:51,236 --> 00:43:58,396
Speaker 1: then you know, I felt like, yeah, I probably, you know,

796
00:43:58,476 --> 00:44:00,116
Speaker 1: I probably need to be here that so I feel

797
00:44:00,156 --> 00:44:02,396
Speaker 1: more like myself now. I felt like I needed to

798
00:44:02,476 --> 00:44:04,236
Speaker 1: have a voice at the table as it were, or

799
00:44:04,276 --> 00:44:06,836
Speaker 1: whatever it is that they say, and you need to

800
00:44:06,916 --> 00:44:10,076
Speaker 1: be on the same page or I need to come

801
00:44:10,116 --> 00:44:13,636
Speaker 1: on board whatever pirate ship business language. I need to

802
00:44:13,676 --> 00:44:17,596
Speaker 1: be at the party. But once I was, I found

803
00:44:17,636 --> 00:44:20,356
Speaker 1: and I think I mentioned this briefly in the book

804
00:44:20,356 --> 00:44:24,076
Speaker 1: because I've found that it's it's not satisfying ever because

805
00:44:24,156 --> 00:44:26,356
Speaker 1: you become popular like you think that you should be,

806
00:44:26,916 --> 00:44:29,676
Speaker 1: which as I remember sitting with a hero of mine

807
00:44:29,796 --> 00:44:31,796
Speaker 1: from the Archers of Loaf Did you know that band?

808
00:44:32,156 --> 00:44:34,036
Speaker 1: They were a punk band from Chapel Hill, North Carolina.

809
00:44:34,076 --> 00:44:35,956
Speaker 1: The probably sold about forty thousand records. I think Kurt

810
00:44:36,036 --> 00:44:38,836
Speaker 1: Cobain was a big fan of them back in the day,

811
00:44:38,836 --> 00:44:40,396
Speaker 1: and they lived in my neighborhood, you know, And I

812
00:44:40,476 --> 00:44:42,916
Speaker 1: was sitting in the van with Eric, who was the

813
00:44:42,996 --> 00:44:45,196
Speaker 1: main guy. I was like, how many records do you sell?

814
00:44:45,196 --> 00:44:47,196
Speaker 1: Because I never even made a record before he goes

815
00:44:47,396 --> 00:44:50,756
Speaker 1: we sold forty thousand records, like Jesus, forty thousand records.

816
00:44:50,836 --> 00:44:53,356
Speaker 1: That's huge. I can't imagine doing that. Of course, when

817
00:44:53,396 --> 00:44:55,556
Speaker 1: we were selling seventy thousand records a week in a

818
00:44:55,636 --> 00:44:58,596
Speaker 1: couple of years and that wasn't enough, I thought, oh man,

819
00:44:58,716 --> 00:45:01,796
Speaker 1: that's that's not enough. Because you can see these guys

820
00:45:01,836 --> 00:45:05,756
Speaker 1: they got a commercial with that the Verve song. They

821
00:45:05,836 --> 00:45:08,796
Speaker 1: got a Nike commercial. Damn we needed a Nike commercial.

822
00:45:08,836 --> 00:45:11,716
Speaker 1: They just creamed us. Now they're selling two hundred thousand

823
00:45:11,756 --> 00:45:14,076
Speaker 1: records a week and we're selling seventy. And my song

824
00:45:14,276 --> 00:45:16,036
Speaker 1: is just as good as Sarah say. You go through

825
00:45:16,076 --> 00:45:19,116
Speaker 1: that crap, and you know you have to best to

826
00:45:19,236 --> 00:45:21,556
Speaker 1: admit it, best to admit that your ego was duped

827
00:45:21,596 --> 00:45:23,156
Speaker 1: and you should get out of the business of that.

828
00:45:24,116 --> 00:45:26,756
Speaker 1: So I try try not to really worry about it

829
00:45:26,836 --> 00:45:29,516
Speaker 1: as much anymore. You're going to sometimes it's a business

830
00:45:29,996 --> 00:45:34,876
Speaker 1: that is. Your life is affected by approval. You know,

831
00:45:35,396 --> 00:45:37,716
Speaker 1: if people approve and they give me money, or they

832
00:45:37,756 --> 00:45:41,076
Speaker 1: applaud my life is better, and I'm supposed to not

833
00:45:41,876 --> 00:45:44,156
Speaker 1: read what's written about me, or I'm supposed to not

834
00:45:44,436 --> 00:45:47,436
Speaker 1: notice what the sales are on something. It's hard to do.

835
00:45:48,156 --> 00:45:49,916
Speaker 1: I think you candy couple of them. But I think

836
00:45:49,956 --> 00:45:52,996
Speaker 1: it's best to admit instead of being so cool and saying, oh,

837
00:45:53,036 --> 00:45:55,556
Speaker 1: I don't pay attention to my reviews. I don't care

838
00:45:55,636 --> 00:45:57,996
Speaker 1: what anybody thinks. It's like, boy, you need to go

839
00:45:58,116 --> 00:46:00,996
Speaker 1: some therapy. You do care what people think seriously, but

840
00:46:01,156 --> 00:46:04,036
Speaker 1: you have to admit that first. I do want to

841
00:46:04,036 --> 00:46:06,156
Speaker 1: ask you about one more thing speaking of being cocky,

842
00:46:06,516 --> 00:46:08,956
Speaker 1: which is E've done this for years in concerts, even

843
00:46:09,116 --> 00:46:12,196
Speaker 1: on it with orchestras, and I'm incurred everybody to go

844
00:46:12,276 --> 00:46:16,796
Speaker 1: to YouTube and watch this. Uh you call it RTB yes,

845
00:46:17,396 --> 00:46:23,556
Speaker 1: which is rock this bitch? You composed something on the spot?

846
00:46:24,236 --> 00:46:26,156
Speaker 1: Is it? Is it from audience members? How do you?

847
00:46:27,636 --> 00:46:32,556
Speaker 1: It can come in different forms? Basically the history of

848
00:46:32,636 --> 00:46:35,636
Speaker 1: it is it was we were making a live piano

849
00:46:36,116 --> 00:46:39,356
Speaker 1: solo piano record, one of my favorites. I think it's

850
00:46:39,876 --> 00:46:41,836
Speaker 1: I don't know, I haven't done more of that, but

851
00:46:42,236 --> 00:46:46,316
Speaker 1: um an audience guy, an audience yelled rock this Bitch.

852
00:46:47,236 --> 00:46:49,196
Speaker 1: I think he meant he wanted me to play louder

853
00:46:49,196 --> 00:46:51,516
Speaker 1: and faster. Maybe I was playing too slow, played too

854
00:46:51,556 --> 00:46:54,876
Speaker 1: many ballads. The kid wanted to rock. And it's like, well,

855
00:46:54,956 --> 00:46:57,836
Speaker 1: I don't, um, I don't know that one. UM. Let

856
00:46:57,916 --> 00:47:00,476
Speaker 1: me see if I can make one up. And so

857
00:47:00,636 --> 00:47:02,436
Speaker 1: I made up a song and it ended up on

858
00:47:02,516 --> 00:47:05,636
Speaker 1: the live record called rock this Bitch. I was that

859
00:47:05,756 --> 00:47:08,996
Speaker 1: was freestyle completely and it was kind of the revelation

860
00:47:09,316 --> 00:47:11,356
Speaker 1: was it held up with other stuff on the record

861
00:47:11,836 --> 00:47:17,556
Speaker 1: disturbingly well and people ask for it every night then,

862
00:47:17,556 --> 00:47:19,596
Speaker 1: because then it became a thing. They say rock this Bitch,

863
00:47:19,596 --> 00:47:20,876
Speaker 1: and I would have to make up a new one,

864
00:47:21,316 --> 00:47:22,876
Speaker 1: and a new one, and a new one, a new one.

865
00:47:23,716 --> 00:47:25,876
Speaker 1: All of them I think are probably different. They may

866
00:47:25,956 --> 00:47:29,956
Speaker 1: overlap in some way, not on purpose. The idea is

867
00:47:30,076 --> 00:47:32,876
Speaker 1: that when someone says rock this Bitch, then I have

868
00:47:32,996 --> 00:47:36,916
Speaker 1: to do it. Let's start making up a song. I've

869
00:47:36,996 --> 00:47:38,796
Speaker 1: learned so much about songwriting that way, and I tried

870
00:47:38,836 --> 00:47:40,796
Speaker 1: to impart some of that the best I could. It's

871
00:47:40,996 --> 00:47:44,356
Speaker 1: very difficult to articulate what I learned about songwriting, but

872
00:47:44,476 --> 00:47:47,556
Speaker 1: one of the things I've learned is that a song

873
00:47:49,076 --> 00:47:51,956
Speaker 1: is so wonderful If it sounds as though the singer

874
00:47:52,796 --> 00:47:56,076
Speaker 1: and the audience are all discovering it together. It doesn't

875
00:47:56,076 --> 00:47:58,076
Speaker 1: sound like it was there before. It sounds like it's

876
00:47:58,116 --> 00:48:01,436
Speaker 1: coming out of the earth, which is a very Beethoven idea.

877
00:48:01,956 --> 00:48:04,996
Speaker 1: You know that that it is there already, and it's

878
00:48:05,036 --> 00:48:08,716
Speaker 1: just it's you're a font and it's coming out. When

879
00:48:08,796 --> 00:48:14,436
Speaker 1: we d and paste form the first versus, let's say,

880
00:48:14,556 --> 00:48:17,716
Speaker 1: is eight bars and has particular cadence. If we cut

881
00:48:17,796 --> 00:48:21,596
Speaker 1: and paste that idea across the next two verses, that's normal.

882
00:48:21,796 --> 00:48:25,276
Speaker 1: That's a normal form when you are rt being if

883
00:48:25,316 --> 00:48:28,596
Speaker 1: you're a freestyle in a song, you can't really remember

884
00:48:28,756 --> 00:48:31,076
Speaker 1: exactly what you did in the first verse, and you

885
00:48:31,196 --> 00:48:33,476
Speaker 1: try to approximate it. But you're a new person and

886
00:48:33,596 --> 00:48:35,996
Speaker 1: you're discovering a new thing, so you're it's a new

887
00:48:36,116 --> 00:48:39,716
Speaker 1: take on that verse, and so it is unfolding in

888
00:48:39,796 --> 00:48:43,636
Speaker 1: a way that songs normally don't unfold. And I find

889
00:48:43,676 --> 00:48:45,916
Speaker 1: it very effective and I learned a lot from that

890
00:48:46,836 --> 00:48:51,756
Speaker 1: all because you know, a song really could be seen

891
00:48:51,796 --> 00:48:53,356
Speaker 1: if it's a three and a half minute song could

892
00:48:53,356 --> 00:48:55,476
Speaker 1: be seen to have only taken three and a half

893
00:48:55,516 --> 00:48:59,156
Speaker 1: minutes to actually invent the rest of it was all

894
00:48:59,196 --> 00:49:02,196
Speaker 1: an editing process, stuff that you didn't use and thinking

895
00:49:02,196 --> 00:49:03,796
Speaker 1: about it and stuff. But the actual song is three

896
00:49:03,796 --> 00:49:06,236
Speaker 1: and a half minutes. It should sound like a discovery.

897
00:49:06,596 --> 00:49:08,636
Speaker 1: And when you teach, you say it's a very effective

898
00:49:08,676 --> 00:49:11,516
Speaker 1: thing to teach to make people do it. Very effective

899
00:49:11,556 --> 00:49:15,196
Speaker 1: because one it keeps you from being precious also you want.

900
00:49:15,236 --> 00:49:17,836
Speaker 1: The other thing you learn about it is that you know,

901
00:49:18,036 --> 00:49:21,356
Speaker 1: like life, it's hills and valleys. It's not all like

902
00:49:21,956 --> 00:49:24,716
Speaker 1: up up up up up, like like an American musical.

903
00:49:24,796 --> 00:49:26,956
Speaker 1: It's like it doesn't all have to be better, better, better,

904
00:49:27,036 --> 00:49:33,796
Speaker 1: better better. It can be like oops, snore, amazing snore.

905
00:49:34,156 --> 00:49:37,036
Speaker 1: That's life. It works that way. Or mistakes. You make

906
00:49:37,076 --> 00:49:38,636
Speaker 1: a mistake while you're writing a song, it's like, I

907
00:49:38,836 --> 00:49:40,676
Speaker 1: really wish I hadn't gone here? How are you going

908
00:49:40,716 --> 00:49:43,156
Speaker 1: to get out of this? In real time? Is actually

909
00:49:43,196 --> 00:49:46,236
Speaker 1: of interest to the audience. It's also energy that that

910
00:49:47,076 --> 00:49:49,396
Speaker 1: is compelling a song. I learn a lot. I think

911
00:49:49,476 --> 00:49:52,476
Speaker 1: the songwriters ought to have to freestyle a song every night,

912
00:49:52,676 --> 00:49:55,076
Speaker 1: I really do. I think they don't think they can

913
00:49:55,156 --> 00:49:58,916
Speaker 1: do it. But something comes out. Something will always come out.

914
00:49:59,156 --> 00:50:00,916
Speaker 1: And when you find yourself in the lull. Like I

915
00:50:00,996 --> 00:50:04,316
Speaker 1: say in the book, the beauty of this exercise is

916
00:50:04,356 --> 00:50:07,156
Speaker 1: you have to write yourself out of it. We edit

917
00:50:07,236 --> 00:50:10,116
Speaker 1: those things out when you write a song, and we're

918
00:50:10,156 --> 00:50:12,116
Speaker 1: crafting a song, and there's nothing really wrong with that.

919
00:50:12,196 --> 00:50:13,996
Speaker 1: It's just that when you're more in control about it,

920
00:50:14,596 --> 00:50:16,316
Speaker 1: that you want it all to be all killer or

921
00:50:16,396 --> 00:50:18,756
Speaker 1: no filler. But that's not really what a good song is.

922
00:50:19,196 --> 00:50:22,676
Speaker 1: You know, you ask someone like, what's what's two or

923
00:50:22,716 --> 00:50:24,596
Speaker 1: three songs that you love. We're gonna listen to them tonight.

924
00:50:24,596 --> 00:50:26,716
Speaker 1: You have a beer, listen to some great songs, and

925
00:50:26,796 --> 00:50:28,356
Speaker 1: then you listen to him the guys going, I love

926
00:50:28,396 --> 00:50:29,956
Speaker 1: this song. I love a song too. Why do you

927
00:50:30,036 --> 00:50:33,716
Speaker 1: like it? I like it because of well, wait a minute,

928
00:50:34,116 --> 00:50:37,436
Speaker 1: oh there was what we'll run it back. It was

929
00:50:37,476 --> 00:50:41,076
Speaker 1: just a little moment sometimes and it was the getting there.

930
00:50:41,396 --> 00:50:43,516
Speaker 1: They think it's the whole song that they liked, but

931
00:50:43,516 --> 00:50:45,476
Speaker 1: it's like, what do you like about those words? Actually?

932
00:50:45,516 --> 00:50:47,436
Speaker 1: I don't like the verse verse. I just like that

933
00:50:47,476 --> 00:50:50,556
Speaker 1: part where he says this, I like this thing. It's like, well,

934
00:50:50,756 --> 00:50:54,036
Speaker 1: those first words that he didn't care for got you there.

935
00:50:54,556 --> 00:50:58,076
Speaker 1: And I think it's important not to write everyone like

936
00:50:58,196 --> 00:51:00,196
Speaker 1: they have to be a punchline, not to write everyone,

937
00:51:00,236 --> 00:51:02,116
Speaker 1: And so they have to mean anything. They have to

938
00:51:02,196 --> 00:51:03,876
Speaker 1: be real, and they have to be getting you to

939
00:51:03,956 --> 00:51:06,476
Speaker 1: the next moment and those moments in life where it's like,

940
00:51:06,476 --> 00:51:08,236
Speaker 1: if you had a moment in your day, you had

941
00:51:08,276 --> 00:51:09,996
Speaker 1: a good day. That's the way it should be in

942
00:51:10,076 --> 00:51:12,396
Speaker 1: a song. But you can't have the moment in a vacuum.

943
00:51:12,476 --> 00:51:14,676
Speaker 1: You have to get to the moment. And so when

944
00:51:14,716 --> 00:51:17,956
Speaker 1: you learn freestyling, a song is all these things that

945
00:51:18,076 --> 00:51:19,956
Speaker 1: you just don't put your mind to when you're really

946
00:51:19,996 --> 00:51:23,476
Speaker 1: thinking about proper songwriting. And it has I don't know

947
00:51:23,516 --> 00:51:25,796
Speaker 1: if it's improved my songwriting, but I've learned a lot

948
00:51:26,196 --> 00:51:29,196
Speaker 1: by it. Okay, so before you go, yes, can I

949
00:51:29,276 --> 00:51:35,076
Speaker 1: ask one more favorite? Sure? Can you rock this bitch? Oh?

950
00:51:35,436 --> 00:51:41,116
Speaker 1: I guess so. I mean the first thing, it's just

951
00:51:41,516 --> 00:51:43,436
Speaker 1: something comes out and you don't know where it's going.

952
00:51:47,876 --> 00:51:53,436
Speaker 1: I didn't think then I would have to write a

953
00:51:53,676 --> 00:52:06,156
Speaker 1: song in a podcast. That's okay, Well, I see there's

954
00:52:06,156 --> 00:52:15,436
Speaker 1: a mistake, so I'll go with it. Five. I didn't

955
00:52:15,836 --> 00:52:22,676
Speaker 1: know i'd have to see And now my voice is crusting.

956
00:52:23,836 --> 00:52:28,956
Speaker 1: I just woke up. It's a day off. There are

957
00:52:29,276 --> 00:52:36,756
Speaker 1: no days off when you're rocking this bitch in a podcast,

958
00:52:37,956 --> 00:52:43,916
Speaker 1: rocking this Bitch with Bruce, I am rocking this bitch.

959
00:52:44,196 --> 00:52:48,476
Speaker 1: They're gonna edit out the stupid ship and make me

960
00:52:48,716 --> 00:52:55,236
Speaker 1: sound like I'm smart rockness. But it's a minor chord.

961
00:52:55,236 --> 00:52:57,596
Speaker 1: We don't know what's going to go from there. Fabulous,

962
00:52:57,956 --> 00:52:59,996
Speaker 1: Thank you, you rocked it. Thank you so much. It's

963
00:53:00,036 --> 00:53:07,356
Speaker 1: been wonderful all right. Thanks to Ben Folds for sharing

964
00:53:07,436 --> 00:53:10,396
Speaker 1: some incredible insights into his life in the world. You

965
00:53:10,476 --> 00:53:12,436
Speaker 1: can hear all of our favorite Benfold songs on my

966
00:53:12,516 --> 00:53:15,796
Speaker 1: playlist at Broken record podcast dot com, and be sure

967
00:53:15,836 --> 00:53:18,316
Speaker 1: to subscribe to our YouTube channel at YouTube dot com

968
00:53:18,436 --> 00:53:21,836
Speaker 1: slash broken record Podcast. There you can find extended cuts

969
00:53:21,876 --> 00:53:25,396
Speaker 1: of our new and old episodes. Broken Record is produced

970
00:53:25,436 --> 00:53:29,556
Speaker 1: with help from Leah Rose, Jason Gambrel, Martin Gonzalez, Eric

971
00:53:29,676 --> 00:53:33,556
Speaker 1: Sandler in our new intern Jennifer Sanchez, and as executive

972
00:53:33,556 --> 00:53:36,436
Speaker 1: producer find Me a Little Bit. Broken Record is a

973
00:53:36,476 --> 00:53:39,676
Speaker 1: production of Pushkin Industries, and if you like Broken Record,

974
00:53:39,996 --> 00:53:42,396
Speaker 1: please remember to share, rate, and review our show on

975
00:53:42,516 --> 00:53:45,876
Speaker 1: your podcast. Our theme musics by Kenny Beats. I'm justin

976
00:53:45,996 --> 00:53:46,956
Speaker 1: Richmond Bass