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Speaker 1: Whoso Media.

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Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to cool people who talk about pirates sometimes.

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Speaker 2: I'm your host, Margaret Kiljoy, and I'm talking to a

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Speaker 2: cool person about pirates sometimes whose name is Molly.

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Speaker 3: Hi, Molly, Hey, Margaret.

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Speaker 2: I suppose you have a last name, Molly Crabapple, Molly Krabapple.

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Speaker 2: If you've listened to part one, you know who Molly

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Speaker 2: Crabapple is. If you're listening only to part two, you

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Speaker 2: might still know who Molly Crabapple is because her stuff's

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Speaker 2: a lot of places, and if you don't, you should

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Speaker 2: look it up. But Molly Crabapple is a like a

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Speaker 2: conflict journalist with art and it's cool. Thank you, our

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Speaker 2: producer of Sophie Hi, Sophie Hi, our editor who I

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Speaker 2: forgot to shout out last time. I'm so sorry. Rory

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Speaker 2: is Rory Hi, Rory Hi, Riy you have to say

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Speaker 2: hi to Rory too. All those we can't continue, Hey, Rory,

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Speaker 2: my brain doesn't work right? And are they? Musical was

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Speaker 2: written for us by unwoman. So this is part two

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Speaker 2: about the real Libertalia, rather the cool shit that indigenous

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Speaker 2: rebels were doing in Madagascar and how it relates to

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Speaker 2: the sometimes cool and complicated shit and sometimes terrible shit

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Speaker 2: that pirates from the rest of the world were doing

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Speaker 2: in Madagascar, and how cultures come together and do weird

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Speaker 2: and interesting things and sometimes they're good and sometimes they're not.

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Speaker 2: And there's no clear moral line to easily draw in

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Speaker 2: this week's episodes, but it sure ain't boring. So there's

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Speaker 2: this pirate haven in Madagascar, except instead of a cool

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Speaker 2: anarchist utopia, it's a slave trade port, and in order

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Speaker 2: to fence their stolen goods. I guess it's one of

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Speaker 2: those things where it's like when you're just like kind

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Speaker 2: of in the crime world, you're just like fucking around

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Speaker 2: with people who are bad also, you.

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Speaker 3: Know, yeah, yeah, pretty much like the.

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Speaker 2: Jain Collective was totally working with the mafia. And it's

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Speaker 2: like very narrowly hidden subtext. You know, it's just cool

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Speaker 2: people do crime and bad people do crime. Crime is

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Speaker 2: not a useful metric by which to judge morality. This

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Speaker 2: slave trade port, sorry, this pirate haven in Madagascar wasn't

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Speaker 2: really operating under the European model of settlement in slavery,

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Speaker 2: but more like the Arab and indigenous model, which doesn't

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Speaker 2: make it Again. Whatever I've said, my piece about that

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Speaker 2: they were actually coordinating with locals to purchase war captives

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Speaker 2: and sell those into slavery. And everyone is intermarrying, and

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Speaker 2: it wasn't wildly distinct from local culture in a lot

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Speaker 2: of ways at the time. This doesn't make it good,

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Speaker 2: but it certainly better than the legal settlements. Rather than

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Speaker 2: like leading slave raids, various conflicts between various groups would

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Speaker 2: lead to small scale warfare which produce captives who could

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Speaker 2: be sold into slavery. And so at this point it's

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Speaker 2: worth talking about the Malagasy culture of northeast Madagascar itself.

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Speaker 2: Madagascar overall was not actually particularly egalitarian, but definitely not

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Speaker 2: a modern state structure or anything like that. And honestly,

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Speaker 2: it's funny because this, like not a galitarian society, is

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Speaker 2: so much more a galitarian than the societies that probably

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Speaker 2: anyone who's listening to this lives in. Currently, there was

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Speaker 2: an established class of priests, and there was a growing

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Speaker 2: class of warriors who are above everyone else too. Those

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Speaker 2: are the things that like keep it from being moregalitarian.

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Speaker 3: And what's the what religion are the priests doing?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's really interesting. It depends on what part

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Speaker 2: of the island you're on. They're doing different indigenous practices.

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Speaker 2: But even though there's no qur'an in sight, most of

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Speaker 2: the rest of the island is doing what they would

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Speaker 2: call Islam, but it does not map to other people's

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Speaker 2: understanding of Islam particularly And then in the northeast part,

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Speaker 2: it's Jewish in that same way where it's also not.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, exactly, it's like a folk memory of what

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Speaker 3: being Jewish might have been this. Yeah, it's like, yeah,

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Speaker 3: like this faint trace of something.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And David Graeber, who was Jewish, was kind of

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Speaker 2: also been like and I think that they, you know,

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Speaker 2: I think some Jewish cultural traits carried on. They like

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Speaker 2: spent a lot of time actively discussing philosophy with each

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Speaker 2: other and not.

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Speaker 3: Agreeing on things and nitpicking, nitpicking the culture of graduate students,

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Speaker 3: that's our culture.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and again I won't say that, but grab

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Speaker 2: did and you can.

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Speaker 3: And as a Jewish woman, I will say that it's

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Speaker 3: no surprise that the culture of rabbis produced Marxists.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, it makes sense. So Northeast Madagascar was a

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Speaker 2: clan structure. That whole region had about fifty clans of

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Speaker 2: several hundreds more than one thousand people in each clan,

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Speaker 2: and these were split up into these large families, and

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Speaker 2: you have villages and stuff. Most people are growing rice.

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Speaker 2: To quote Graber about the economics in any given village,

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Speaker 2: there was a great hall where everyone ate their midday

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Speaker 2: meal together, and collective granaries where each family kept their

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Speaker 2: own stock, but also a collective store any family coul

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Speaker 2: in case of shortfall. This was by no means in

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Speaker 2: a galitarian society. Well, everyone had access to the means

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Speaker 2: to sustain life, not everyone had equal access to the

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Speaker 2: means to create it. Just as the heads of villages

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Speaker 2: had multiple wives, so each clan had a dominant lineage

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Speaker 2: that managed to keep a large proportion of its daughters

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Speaker 2: to itself. It's funny that this is the like nonagalitarians.

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Speaker 2: It's so much more a galitarian than how we live now.

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Speaker 3: I mean, it seems like the losers of the nonagalitarian

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Speaker 3: society are all of the guys that get no wives

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Speaker 3: because one guy is getting a lot of them.

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Speaker 2: Yeah kind of. And then like and actually a new

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Speaker 2: clan split off all the time, started by women who

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Speaker 2: were unhappy with what was going on. And overall it's

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Speaker 2: a patriarchal and patrilineal culture, but it's like not completely

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Speaker 2: and that's also not universal across Madagascar, where there's more

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Speaker 2: of like they would, oh there's a word for it,

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Speaker 2: I don't remember, but instead of matrilineal or patrilineal, there's

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Speaker 2: a like botham version, you know, where people keep track

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Speaker 2: of both they're both their parents families. And that's like

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Speaker 2: what was happening in Madagascar overall. But northeast Madagascar was

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Speaker 2: like ostensibly led by men, but in really complicated ways

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Speaker 2: that we're going to talk about, where women actually exerted

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Speaker 2: a lot of power. These large families in the clans

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Speaker 2: themselves had sort of formal leaders who Europeans immediately called kings,

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Speaker 2: but these kings never centralized power and specifically they had

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Speaker 2: like basically no executive power. Sometimes these clans would fight.

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Speaker 2: I'll talk about decisions or whatever, spoil it already spoiled it.

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Speaker 2: They make decisions by consensus and assemblies that anyone who's

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Speaker 2: affected by a decision can come participate in.

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Speaker 3: And what makes you a king then, besides that you

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Speaker 3: have a lot of wives kind of that that's it.

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Speaker 3: That's it.

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Speaker 2: I think it's like, and you also kind of like

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Speaker 2: are doing the like I have so many daughters, and

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Speaker 2: I control what's happening to my daughter. Like, honestly, there's

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Speaker 2: some like patriarchy involved in it too, right, and you're

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Speaker 2: like wealthier more likely. Yeah. I think it's so interesting

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Speaker 2: because this happens all over the world where we just

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Speaker 2: like show up, like Europeans will show up and be

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Speaker 2: like that there's a kingdom, and people are like, what, okay,

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Speaker 2: if we say we're king, will you leave us alone?

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Speaker 1: You know?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? Yeah, well you decide that we're quote unquote civilized

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Speaker 3: enough not to invade us.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And sometimes these clans would go to war with

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Speaker 2: each other, and I think, actually, I think that these

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Speaker 2: kings were like war chiefs a lot of times also,

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Speaker 2: which put them on equal footing with pirates in a

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Speaker 2: lot of ways. Right, Sometimes the kings would just sort

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Speaker 2: of fight duels with each other, and then during any

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Speaker 2: given war, captives were often taken. And then these captives

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Speaker 2: were generally ransom back to the original families or they

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Speaker 2: were married into the families that captured them. This is

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Speaker 2: like a way you like go get men to make

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Speaker 2: everyone not in bread this ye go, it's not whatever.

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Speaker 2: I'm not trying to put a moral judgment one way

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Speaker 2: or the other.

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Speaker 3: It's obvious. So they're kidnapping. They're not doing the usual

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Speaker 3: thing where they're like kidnapping women and forcing them to marry.

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Speaker 3: They're kidnapping dudes and forcing them to marry in.

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Speaker 2: Actually, you know what, now that I'm thinking this through,

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Speaker 2: a lot of the people are being old as slaves,

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Speaker 2: are also women and children, So I think they're just

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Speaker 2: capturing people during these raids. But that's my conjecture based

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Speaker 2: on what I read. And this does not create chattel slavery,

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Speaker 2: but of course foreigners, including Arab traders and European traders,

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Speaker 2: turned it into like funneled people into chattel slavery and

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Speaker 2: the sort of modern what we think of the North

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Speaker 2: Atlantic slave trade and stuff like that. And this whole

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Speaker 2: system of conflict kept any given clan or family from

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Speaker 2: taking too much power. They were often rich and they

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Speaker 2: were surrounded by pirate treasure and shit, but they didn't

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Speaker 2: have a lot of control over other people. The political decisions,

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Speaker 2: including criminal trials, basically were made it consensus based assemblies

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Speaker 2: called cabarety, and these would involve whoever had an interest

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Speaker 2: in whatever decision was being made. Most were on a

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Speaker 2: household or clan level. Sometimes they were regional, like probably

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Speaker 2: the one that is about to kill all the pirates

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Speaker 2: was probably a regional cabaret, but we don't know. Also,

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Speaker 2: there was like women only ones for like like if

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Speaker 2: the shit involved women, then only other women were involved,

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Speaker 2: which is better gender politics than a lot of Now,

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Speaker 2: there are two ways of looking at the way women

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Speaker 2: were treated in the society. One, the primary way that

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Speaker 2: is written down by European anthropologists and by European visitors

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Speaker 2: is that women were more or less property. They were

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Speaker 2: regularly kidnapped and given away. Teenage daughters of important men

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Speaker 2: in particular were given away, especially to foreigners like pirates

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Speaker 2: like Yasically you show up and they're like, ah, nice

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Speaker 2: to meet you, foreigner. Here is my sixteen year old daughter.

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Speaker 2: Fuck yeah, no, it's not the best. Men often had

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Speaker 2: multiple wives. These are all true statements, but they don't

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Speaker 2: address the reality of what was happening. According to the

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Speaker 2: Malagasy view of what was happening, and when pirates married

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Speaker 2: Malagasy women, interestingly, it brought men into the sphere of

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Speaker 2: these important families, so it was like I'm a little

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Speaker 2: bit confused I could read this both ways. There's a

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Speaker 2: real implica that a lot of the pirate men just

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Speaker 2: basically like, like the son in law now just goes

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Speaker 2: and like lives with father in law, you know. But

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Speaker 2: I believe also women were going and living in these

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Speaker 2: coastal towns. And we'll talk about the coastal towns in

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Speaker 2: a minute. The way that Malagasy women wrote about what

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Speaker 2: was happening is wildly different than the way that European

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Speaker 2: men were talking about what was happening, even though they're

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Speaker 2: describing the same thing.

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Speaker 3: So how did they describe, for instance, like your dad

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Speaker 3: given you to the newly arrived pirate dude, so I.

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Speaker 2: We arrived pirate dude.

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Speaker 3: I like that.

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Speaker 2: So they were describing what they were doing as putting

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Speaker 2: on love charms and going down to the ocean to

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Speaker 2: attract men.

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Speaker 3: So they were just like they're having fun.

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Speaker 2: They've done witchcraft to get them to show up. They're like, fuck, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I got a guy. I went fishing at the ocean

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Speaker 2: for a guy.

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Speaker 1: Wow. Wow.

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Speaker 3: So that's very different.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and they would marry these men and not be

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Speaker 2: subordinate to them.

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Speaker 1: So wait, they're like, oh, there's plenty of fish in

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Speaker 1: the sea, but there's like.

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Speaker 2: Literal men in the sea.

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Speaker 1: They're like, oh, I'm gonna put a cute outfit on

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Speaker 1: and perfume and go to the sea to find a man,

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Speaker 1: just like me going to a bookstore being like.

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Speaker 2: Do you read? Are you?

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Speaker 1: Are?

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Speaker 2: You look at me? I'm so alluring? Yeah, yeah, that's

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Speaker 2: that is the implication of what's happening. And they were like, hell, yeah,

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Speaker 2: my powerful witchcraft pulled a man out of the sea,

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Speaker 2: you know, honey.

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Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, you know, good for you. And then they're like,

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Speaker 3: and my dad will be a good choice for my

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Speaker 3: my sea hookup.

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Speaker 2: So I again, I don't know how it relates to

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Speaker 2: the I don't know how often they're like, dad, why

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Speaker 2: do you give me to this guy? Right? I don't

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Speaker 2: know as much about that, but by and large, I

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Speaker 2: think that the way that they are viewing marriage is

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Speaker 2: as an economic relation and not as a romantic relation.

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Speaker 2: And specifically it's an economic relation between equals in a

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Speaker 2: way that it wasn't in Europe at this time, right,

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Speaker 2: And so that's like part of why Europeans could easily

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Speaker 2: be like, oh fuck in her property and being given

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Speaker 2: around because it's like, well, women were property in England

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Speaker 2: in Europe at the time.

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Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, they couldn't even own property.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And I don't know about the property rights of women.

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Speaker 2: I do know about how women ran all the finances.

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Speaker 2: So actually that has some implications. But any man who

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Speaker 2: mistreated his wife would be killed, cursed and killed, probably poisoned.

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Speaker 2: But it was like not presented as like I'm going

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Speaker 2: to poison you. Instead it was like, oh, I don't

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Speaker 2: mess with these women though, And then there's all of

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Speaker 2: these stories about like and then this man died randomly

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Speaker 2: of illness, you know, after he was shitty to his wife.

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Speaker 3: So you're just living. You're living with your wife, and

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Speaker 3: you just know that at any moment, if you beat

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Speaker 3: her up or get out of line, that she might

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Speaker 3: just put poison in your food.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Basically that seems like it would make them be respectful.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: No, And overall that seems to be what happened. And

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Speaker 2: men were necessary basically as the bread winners of get

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Speaker 2: the fuck out of here. I don't even want to

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Speaker 2: see you. Why aren't you on the ocean robbing people

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Speaker 2: and giving me stuff? Shit?

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Speaker 3: Man?

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Speaker 2: And so men couldn't be trusted with finances, and so

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Speaker 2: women were in charge of the money. Most of the

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Speaker 2: merchants at all of these port cities of pirates, whether

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Speaker 2: they were married or not, were women, and so women

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Speaker 2: are kind of running the economic sphere.

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Speaker 3: Except for the pirate kings.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like the only specific pirate king. Okay, so

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Speaker 2: when I'm talking about these coastal cities, I'm actually talking

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Speaker 2: about post that pirate king getting run out of town,

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Speaker 2: and I'm going to talk about him getting run of

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Speaker 2: town after I finished the like a side about the

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Speaker 2: Malagassy folks, and I don't know, I suspect there were

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Speaker 2: also probably European traders as well, but the people who

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Speaker 2: were kind of like interfacing stuff coming in and out

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Speaker 2: of the islands were often women. Observers wrote with scandal

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Speaker 2: about how all of the Malagasy women who were married

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Speaker 2: could fuck whoever they wanted, whenever they wanted. If a

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Speaker 2: pirateman had multiple wives, each must be provided with her

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Speaker 2: own home, and then like if he's not home, they're

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Speaker 2: allowed to do whatever they want. Basically, it reached the

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Speaker 2: point where the coastal pirate towns were called cities of

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Speaker 2: women because women ran them and it was mostly women

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Speaker 2: living in them. Because all the husbands are at sea.

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Speaker 2: Isn't that weird how both those stories are true.

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Speaker 3: That's amazing, because, yeah, the Europeans, they had no frame

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Speaker 3: to interpret a world where like, first of all, where

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Speaker 3: a woman who was married could sleep around, right, where

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Speaker 3: a woman would control all of the commerce, where a

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Speaker 3: woman would poison her husband if he gave her a

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Speaker 3: black eye. They had no way to imagine or I mean,

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Speaker 3: I'm sure they had a way, but they hadn't. They

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Speaker 3: refused to imagine women as equal humans. And so if

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Speaker 3: you can't see women as equal humans, you cannot understand

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Speaker 3: at all what's going on.

296
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Speaker 2: Right, And then you're still talking about like a fundamentally right,

297
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Speaker 2: you're still talking about a slave society, right, And so

298
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Speaker 2: on some level, the giving away daughters, it's like, well,

299
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Speaker 2: people are capable of becoming property temporarily in the society

300
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Speaker 2: or even permanently in the society. But then like when

301
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Speaker 2: men are captured, they're often married into the family or whatever. Right,

302
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Speaker 2: so it's just different. Like I feel like this is

303
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Speaker 2: one of the best examples of cultural relativism I've ever seen,

304
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Speaker 2: where I can tell the story that does not look good,

305
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Speaker 2: and then I can tell the story that sounds cool

306
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Speaker 2: as shit, and they're both true in that it's kind

307
00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:22,160
Speaker 2: of not good and it's kind of cool as shit,

308
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Speaker 2: you know, at the same time. And yeah, that is

309
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Speaker 2: the Malagasy people on the northeast coast at the time.

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Speaker 2: This is the culture that these pirates are showing up

311
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Speaker 2: and intermarrying with and hanging out with. And so you've

312
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Speaker 2: got this first pirate settlement off on the island, and

313
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Speaker 2: they're sending a few slaves here and there. It's basically

314
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Speaker 2: in their best interest to make sure the various clans

315
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Speaker 2: keep fighting each other because that produces captives which they

316
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Speaker 2: can turn around and sell. And so there's an economic

317
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Speaker 2: incentive for them to go around and stir up shit.

318
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Speaker 2: So that's not good.

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Speaker 3: And they are stirring up shit. Do they know how

320
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Speaker 3: they stir up shit?

321
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Speaker 2: I don't know how they're stirring up shit. What I

322
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Speaker 2: do know is specifically late they're going to be the

323
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Speaker 2: fucking mediators, my god, and so I know the shift,

324
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Speaker 2: but I don't know what they were doing beforehand.

325
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Speaker 3: Being gospy bitches. They were being like, oh this one, sure, yeah, yeah,

326
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Speaker 3: this one says that your communal cafeteria has shitty food

327
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Speaker 3: and the meat is dry, you just do something about it.

328
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Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, yeah, they just cointel prode that shit, and

329
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Speaker 2: their primary interest is fencing stolen goods. But then the

330
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Speaker 2: New York City businessmen were like, you send far too

331
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Speaker 2: few slaves. And so the pirate king he's kind of

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Speaker 2: like he thinks forced but whatever, fuck him. He starts

333
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Speaker 2: stepping it up. And what he does in he didn't

334
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Speaker 2: write in the script sixteen ninety seven. Mm. Yeah, he

335
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Speaker 2: tricks a bunch of people into coming into his fort

336
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Speaker 2: and then he scoops them up and sells them. And

337
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Speaker 2: this is entirely outside the social contract of like the

338
00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:54,880
Speaker 2: way slavery is supposed to work around here, right, So

339
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Speaker 2: the locals burn his fucking fortress down and slit the

340
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Speaker 2: throat of every pirate they.

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Speaker 3: Saw, I mean understandably.

342
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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, except a bunch of the pirates had been

343
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Speaker 2: given a heads up by their wives who they were

344
00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:09,120
Speaker 2: actually nice to and had nothing to do with any

345
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Speaker 2: of it, and weren't there that day.

346
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Speaker 3: And they never they never retaliated against those pirates. Did

347
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Speaker 3: those pirates have to go away forever? Did they just

348
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Speaker 3: like leave until.

349
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Speaker 2: Oh they wipe out the fucking town, Like it is.

350
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Speaker 3: The ones who're the ones who have not been there

351
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Speaker 3: that day.

352
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Speaker 2: No, I know what I'm saying is there's no one

353
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Speaker 2: to retaliate against them. They show up and they slit

354
00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:33,919
Speaker 2: everyone's throats. That time, that period of slavery on this

355
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Speaker 2: island is over. In one attack, they wipe out a

356
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Speaker 2: slave trade port.

357
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Speaker 3: Wow.

358
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Speaker 2: Yeah, that particular pirate king, he escaped the knife because

359
00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:47,280
Speaker 2: he was out at sea. I don't think he was

360
00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:50,159
Speaker 2: tipped off. And he just never goes back. He's like,

361
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Speaker 2: I'm fucking out of here.

362
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Speaker 3: He knows it's fucking over.

363
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Speaker 2: Yeah, And basically all the pirates realized their allegiance is

364
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Speaker 2: not to fucking Europe or to sl They are at

365
00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:04,800
Speaker 2: war with the whole civilized world. After all. They stop

366
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Speaker 2: slave trading, and they cut out the trying to stir

367
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Speaker 2: up conflict between groups, and they more go native. I

368
00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:16,120
Speaker 2: don't know the proper way to use. I know it's

369
00:18:16,119 --> 00:18:17,159
Speaker 2: a shitty phrase. I just don't know.

370
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Speaker 3: They become Malagasy, they integrate.

371
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Speaker 2: More so, they do more of that. They're still distinct

372
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Speaker 2: and their children are going to become this kind of

373
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Speaker 2: separate clasp and we'll talk about that later. And they

374
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Speaker 2: moved to the mainland, and then slavers avoid northeast Madagascar

375
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Speaker 2: for decades because well, the pirates will still attack slave ships.

376
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Speaker 3: Because it turns out that that was highly effective.

377
00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:42,040
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, and they're probably not doing it because they're

378
00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:45,560
Speaker 2: like we individually. But honestly, I'm will into bed. The

379
00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:48,119
Speaker 2: average pirate who believes in this all galitarian shit might

380
00:18:48,119 --> 00:18:50,320
Speaker 2: be like kind of anti slavery. I don't know. I mean,

381
00:18:50,359 --> 00:18:53,040
Speaker 2: obviously some of them weren't, you know, I could see it.

382
00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:59,239
Speaker 2: So the place that inspired Libertalia fell destroyed righteously, and

383
00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:03,160
Speaker 2: what rose and stay were these cities of women and

384
00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:09,040
Speaker 2: then a whole crazy rebellious confederation that is really fucking interesting.

385
00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:13,400
Speaker 2: But before we talk about it, I want to talk

386
00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:17,480
Speaker 2: about medieval weapons. Have you purchased medieval weapons lately? If

387
00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:20,760
Speaker 2: you haven't purchased a new medieval weapon, your soul has

388
00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:22,560
Speaker 2: a sword shaped hole in it.

389
00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:26,160
Speaker 3: Sword shaped holes is also what happens when you don't

390
00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:28,680
Speaker 3: purchase medieval weapons and someone else around you has.

391
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Speaker 2: I know, those without swords can still die upon them.

392
00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:46,439
Speaker 2: That's our slogan. Anyway, here's other ads ed, Rebecca, So

393
00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:48,840
Speaker 2: I'm going to tell you about another pirate. This is

394
00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:51,120
Speaker 2: going to lead to the weird legend stuff that people

395
00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:54,280
Speaker 2: are going to build. There's a guy named Henry Avery,

396
00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:56,480
Speaker 2: and he's like in the like list of like he's

397
00:19:56,480 --> 00:19:59,679
Speaker 2: not Blackbeard, but he's like up there right. He's one

398
00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:03,359
Speaker 2: of the the guys people talk about. He was active

399
00:20:03,359 --> 00:20:06,000
Speaker 2: for all of two years and he pulled off the

400
00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:10,639
Speaker 2: greatest haul in pirate history probably and he was never caught.

401
00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:13,800
Speaker 2: He's one of the only motherfuckers that didn't get caught him.

402
00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:15,480
Speaker 3: And the Chinese pirate queen.

403
00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:17,080
Speaker 2: Oh does she get away in the end? That rules?

404
00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:19,720
Speaker 3: She did. At the end, she was so powerful that

405
00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:22,280
Speaker 3: the government like cut a deal with her and she

406
00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:23,840
Speaker 3: got to like retire with all her money.

407
00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:27,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, that makes sense. Most of Avery's folks, who we

408
00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:30,040
Speaker 2: know where they ended up. They just like showed up

409
00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:32,240
Speaker 2: to the Americas and were like, Hey, if we give

410
00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:34,760
Speaker 2: you like a shit ton of stolen stuff, can you

411
00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:38,840
Speaker 2: just not kill us? And America was like, yeah, that

412
00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:43,840
Speaker 2: sounds up our alley, you know. But most Golden Age

413
00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:46,160
Speaker 2: pirates got their start in a similar way as our

414
00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:52,080
Speaker 2: guy Avery, unpaid wages. The Charles two was a ship

415
00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:54,760
Speaker 2: that wasn't paying its sailors and there was a big

416
00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:58,640
Speaker 2: old warship, and so the sailors were like, well, we

417
00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:00,520
Speaker 2: want to get paid though, and they were like, well,

418
00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:01,879
Speaker 2: we're not going to pay you right now. And they

419
00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:05,200
Speaker 2: were like, there's a lot of us, and so they mutinied.

420
00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:08,320
Speaker 3: Good for them, Good for them as a freelancer who

421
00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:11,600
Speaker 3: has often gotten paid later or not gotten paid at all. Yeah,

422
00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:12,680
Speaker 3: I salute you, pirates.

423
00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:16,720
Speaker 2: Yeah exactly, mutineers. You'll get the death penalty if you

424
00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:18,560
Speaker 2: go back to port. So they're like, all right, we're

425
00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:20,840
Speaker 2: pirates now, all because your boss has tried to get

426
00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:22,320
Speaker 2: you to work for free, almost like that was a

427
00:21:22,359 --> 00:21:25,360
Speaker 2: big hole thing during the seventeen and eighteenth century.

428
00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:28,520
Speaker 3: They didn't pay you for that children's book you illustrated.

429
00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:31,000
Speaker 2: Nope, nope. So it's time to just go to war

430
00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:34,639
Speaker 2: against the world exactly. And I feel like there's a

431
00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:38,280
Speaker 2: lesson in here somewhere about how, for example, unpaid wages

432
00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:42,080
Speaker 2: are the largest category theft in the US today. The

433
00:21:42,119 --> 00:21:45,800
Speaker 2: Economic Policy Institute calculates that workers in this country now

434
00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:48,800
Speaker 2: not talking about the old seventeen hundreds, are robbed of

435
00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:51,639
Speaker 2: fifty billion dollars a year, which is one hundred times

436
00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:56,359
Speaker 2: more than the combined sum of all robbery. So all

437
00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:58,399
Speaker 2: these motherfuckers run out there and buy guns to protect

438
00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:01,040
Speaker 2: themselves from robbery, are pointing the guns in the wrong direction,

439
00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:05,560
Speaker 2: is all I'm saying. Anyway, before criminally actionable things get said,

440
00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:09,040
Speaker 2: back to ye oldie times, that's obviously what we're talking about.

441
00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:11,080
Speaker 2: We're only talking about ye oldie times, which.

442
00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:12,800
Speaker 3: Is safely in the past and has no relevance to

443
00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:13,760
Speaker 3: the present whatsoever.

444
00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:17,720
Speaker 2: No, I can't even imagine any comparisons that could be made,

445
00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:20,000
Speaker 2: like the one I just made. So Avery and his

446
00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:23,680
Speaker 2: friend's mutiny and they elect Avery captain, and so they

447
00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:27,200
Speaker 2: renamed their ship the Fancy, which is a cool fucking

448
00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:28,720
Speaker 2: name for a pirate ship.

449
00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:32,639
Speaker 3: The Fancy. Yeah, yeah, does that like Swarowski crystals are

450
00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:33,280
Speaker 3: their pasties?

451
00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:33,879
Speaker 2: I don't know.

452
00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:34,480
Speaker 3: I don't know.

453
00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:37,399
Speaker 2: Well, it's pretty soon gonna have the most treasure a

454
00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:39,280
Speaker 2: ship has ever stolen on it.

455
00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:41,600
Speaker 3: So I hope they're doing some like glam shit with

456
00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:42,560
Speaker 3: that Fancy.

457
00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:44,600
Speaker 2: That's one of the things that's so fucking weird about

458
00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:47,320
Speaker 2: pirates is so interesting. They're stuck doing glam shit because

459
00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:49,320
Speaker 2: they can't always fence that shit, and so they're just

460
00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:52,280
Speaker 2: like walking around like covered in jewels, because you can't

461
00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:54,760
Speaker 2: sell this like rare jewel that everyone knows that if

462
00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:57,000
Speaker 2: you sell it, you'll get murdered by the state, you know.

463
00:22:57,640 --> 00:22:59,920
Speaker 3: So you always you always have to dress fancy.

464
00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:03,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, And so they sailed to the Indian Ocean. I

465
00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:05,080
Speaker 2: think they start off off the coast of Spain and

466
00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:07,399
Speaker 2: been more certain about things. And they go to the

467
00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:09,399
Speaker 2: Indian Ocean and they join a fleet and they attack

468
00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:12,000
Speaker 2: some fuck off rich ships from the Mughal Empire. I

469
00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:14,560
Speaker 2: promise you, the Mughal Empire. This is where they come up.

470
00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:19,280
Speaker 2: The amount that they stole is calculated now to be

471
00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:22,560
Speaker 2: somewhere between two hundred to four hundred million dollars in

472
00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:23,320
Speaker 2: today's money.

473
00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:26,280
Speaker 3: And the Mughal Empire then, like the level of fanciness

474
00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:29,280
Speaker 3: that the Mughal Empire is, there is no fanciness like

475
00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:32,280
Speaker 3: that in Europe. Europe is a backwater. Then. I mean,

476
00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:34,520
Speaker 3: these are the people who are building the taj Mahal.

477
00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:36,840
Speaker 3: These are the people that if you went to like

478
00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:39,760
Speaker 3: a party in England then it would smell like shit

479
00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:42,760
Speaker 3: and I don't know, stale beer. If you went to

480
00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:45,359
Speaker 3: a party in the Mughal Empire, it would smell like

481
00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:48,280
Speaker 3: one thousand two roses that were arranged in a lot

482
00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:53,160
Speaker 3: ornate persian ate patterns in giant golden flagons of water.

483
00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:56,280
Speaker 3: It is the most it is the most lavish place

484
00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:59,320
Speaker 3: on earth. So whatever they eluded from the Mughal Empire

485
00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:01,399
Speaker 3: is shit though. Make a European's eyes pop.

486
00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:06,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, And this is like, this is more than even

487
00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:09,080
Speaker 2: the pirate King of Madagascar because this happens before they

488
00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:11,200
Speaker 2: all get their throat split a couple of years earlier,

489
00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:15,640
Speaker 2: I think sixteen ninety five whatever. But even the pirate

490
00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:19,080
Speaker 2: King of Madagascar could not realistically fence all this shit.

491
00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:24,480
Speaker 2: This theft was an international incident. It almost got England

492
00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:29,400
Speaker 2: kicked out of India, like, it almost ruined international trade

493
00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:32,560
Speaker 2: because India or the Mubile Empire was like, this is

494
00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:36,199
Speaker 2: y'all's fault, and England was like, we're really sorry. We

495
00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:38,800
Speaker 2: swear they hadn't. They had not yet conquered India obviously,

496
00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:39,520
Speaker 2: so this.

497
00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:41,280
Speaker 3: Could have been like a cautionary thing that kept the

498
00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:43,480
Speaker 3: Brits out from take colonizing India.

499
00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:47,800
Speaker 2: I know, Avery almost saved the day, but instead England

500
00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:52,400
Speaker 2: declared avery the enemy of all humanity and the world's

501
00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:54,520
Speaker 2: first international manhunt was.

502
00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:57,760
Speaker 3: On most wanted man in the Ship, the Fancy.

503
00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:01,879
Speaker 2: Yeah mm hmm, and his crew, who disappeared to the Americas,

504
00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:03,400
Speaker 2: where they bought their way in. I think a lot

505
00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:05,359
Speaker 2: of them went to Ireland. I read two sources that

506
00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:09,639
Speaker 2: seemed to disagree about that, and twenty four of his

507
00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:12,080
Speaker 2: crew were arrested and six of them were hanged. Avery

508
00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:15,360
Speaker 2: himself was never caught. There are a thousand stories about

509
00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:18,040
Speaker 2: what he did next. There's a he went and retired rich.

510
00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:21,320
Speaker 2: There's a he got screwed over by diamond merchants. Oh

511
00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:23,640
Speaker 2: my god, that's probably an anti Semitic conspiracy theory. There's

512
00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:26,280
Speaker 2: a he got screwed over by diamond merchants and died poor.

513
00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:30,280
Speaker 2: And there's a like he became a spy for blah

514
00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:33,120
Speaker 2: blah blah, and just no one fucking knows.

515
00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:35,800
Speaker 3: What do you think happened to him?

516
00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:39,200
Speaker 2: Honestly, maybe because of what I just read. I think

517
00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:42,080
Speaker 2: he married his way into a Malagassy family and was like,

518
00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:42,680
Speaker 2: I'm good.

519
00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:45,400
Speaker 3: And he was just enjoying, like the beautiful weather and

520
00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:48,600
Speaker 3: the yeah, cool society, gossiping at the communal table.

521
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:52,080
Speaker 2: That's like my best guess. But I don't have a

522
00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:53,840
Speaker 2: good sense of him as a person. He kind of

523
00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:55,879
Speaker 2: has that thing where the reputation around him is that

524
00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:57,879
Speaker 2: he was like a little bit more of like a

525
00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:00,720
Speaker 2: proper gentleman and like a family man, and he ust less.

526
00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:02,720
Speaker 2: Because actually a lot of those people would be the

527
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:04,800
Speaker 2: people who get elected captain, because people were like, oh,

528
00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:07,520
Speaker 2: we like that guy is like a little bit calmer

529
00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:10,439
Speaker 2: and shit, you know, and are more likely to be literate.

530
00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:13,000
Speaker 2: Often it was like the literate people who were elected captain.

531
00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:17,439
Speaker 2: But I don't know. I don't know what happened to him,

532
00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:22,440
Speaker 2: But I do know what happened to his reputation, which

533
00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:25,800
Speaker 2: is that the pirates on Matta Gascar did this wild

534
00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:29,840
Speaker 2: scam against the entire world with his legacy. By the

535
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:32,840
Speaker 2: early seventeen hundreds, about ten years later or so, they

536
00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:35,720
Speaker 2: announced that Avery was there with ten thousand men, and

537
00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:39,159
Speaker 2: that they had set up an entire country, a utopian

538
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:43,840
Speaker 2: democratic society, and they sent out emissaries all over the

539
00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:48,120
Speaker 2: fucking world, or scam artists independently just decided this would

540
00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:51,879
Speaker 2: be fun to do. Basically, people claiming to be emissaries

541
00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:55,800
Speaker 2: showed up to all over Europe, and the Ottoman Empire

542
00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:59,119
Speaker 2: to try and convince them to make treaties with this

543
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:00,439
Speaker 2: fucking pirate kingdom.

544
00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:02,200
Speaker 3: What did they call the pirate kingdom?

545
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:05,399
Speaker 2: I don't know. I'm like annoyed by this. I'm annoyed

546
00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:08,399
Speaker 2: that I don't know the answer to that. England and

547
00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:10,760
Speaker 2: France and the Netherlens told them to kick rocks when

548
00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:13,600
Speaker 2: the emissaries showed up. But they made allies in Sweden,

549
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:16,280
Speaker 2: Russia and the Ottoman Empire and Sweden actually signed some

550
00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:18,359
Speaker 2: treaties before they figured out they were being lied to.

551
00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:19,440
Speaker 3: No.

552
00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:23,000
Speaker 2: And Daniel Dafoe, the Robinson Crusoe guy, was a really

553
00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:25,840
Speaker 2: important writer and wrote about Salien and shit all the time,

554
00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:28,080
Speaker 2: and pirates and shit. He like wrote this whole thing

555
00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:30,160
Speaker 2: about how interesting all this was, and then ten years

556
00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:31,560
Speaker 2: later when he found out it was like a lie,

557
00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:34,840
Speaker 2: he wrote this like long, like it's a lie. He's

558
00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:36,439
Speaker 2: like also the guy who like myth busted it.

559
00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:38,960
Speaker 3: He actually like did a correction of himself in a

560
00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:40,480
Speaker 3: way that is exceedingly rare.

561
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:44,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's true, I know, right. Props to you, Daniel Dafoe.

562
00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:47,560
Speaker 2: I don't know anything about you as a person. And

563
00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:50,840
Speaker 2: one of the reasons that this is so interesting is

564
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:54,600
Speaker 2: this is the grand scale version of what pirates did anyway,

565
00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:57,760
Speaker 2: which was create wild myths about who we are so

566
00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:01,719
Speaker 2: people don't fuck with us. And it's going to kind

567
00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:04,320
Speaker 2: of lead to what people are then going to do

568
00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:09,440
Speaker 2: with what Graber presents is a myth that still is pervasive,

569
00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:14,800
Speaker 2: basically like this concept of like mock kings and mock kingdoms.

570
00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:19,119
Speaker 2: With the fall of that small island community, pirates were

571
00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:20,760
Speaker 2: moving to the mainland and they set up a bunch

572
00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:22,760
Speaker 2: of port towns all over the northeast of the island.

573
00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:26,480
Speaker 2: And we know a little bit about how they function.

574
00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:29,520
Speaker 2: We have educated guesses. We know, for example, that a

575
00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:34,560
Speaker 2: pirate we believe the sources are iffy or the sources

576
00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:37,280
Speaker 2: say this happened, but you know whatever. We know that

577
00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:39,640
Speaker 2: a pirate crew moved on to mainland Madagascar at the

578
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:41,960
Speaker 2: end of seventeen oh three and elected a guy named

579
00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:44,760
Speaker 2: Nathaniel North as their captain. And this is the first

580
00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:48,640
Speaker 2: time we see the sort of evidence of people saying, hey,

581
00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:51,440
Speaker 2: this system worked on a ship, why not try it

582
00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:53,960
Speaker 2: on land. What if we like elect the guy who's

583
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:56,240
Speaker 2: in charge and then make most of our decisions by

584
00:28:56,280 --> 00:29:00,880
Speaker 2: direct democracy. This place was called Ambo Navalla, and we

585
00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:04,560
Speaker 2: don't actually know where it was. There's some guesses and

586
00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:08,440
Speaker 2: these pirates once they moved on to land. According to

587
00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:11,080
Speaker 2: that not really trustworthy, but the only actual source book

588
00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:15,760
Speaker 2: about pirates, they became conflict resolution specialists with the locals.

589
00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:19,320
Speaker 3: Because they had this cultural memory of having started so

590
00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:20,920
Speaker 3: much shit, they knew how to de escalate it.

591
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:24,400
Speaker 2: So instead of promoting conflict because it led to more

592
00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:27,560
Speaker 2: captives and therefore more slaves, they were running around listening

593
00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:30,800
Speaker 2: to both sides of issues and helping people find peaceful resolution.

594
00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:34,920
Speaker 2: And the book goes on at length discussing their strategies,

595
00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:38,080
Speaker 2: but not necessarily their motives behind it. There's self interest

596
00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:40,640
Speaker 2: here first. The one I can tell you what their

597
00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:44,120
Speaker 2: self interest was is that internally they developed a lot

598
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:48,760
Speaker 2: of conflict resolution methods because they absolutely needed to provide

599
00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:53,160
Speaker 2: show a united front to the outside, because if they

600
00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:56,240
Speaker 2: were seen as divided, people would probably come raid them

601
00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:58,200
Speaker 2: and you know, fuck them up right.

602
00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:00,000
Speaker 3: And there would also be a lot of extreme conflict

603
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:01,760
Speaker 3: if you're strapped on a ship with each other.

604
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:03,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, totally, Well now they're on an island, but yeah,

605
00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:05,440
Speaker 2: it was stly in so many of you. You know,

606
00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:09,800
Speaker 2: and I think that doing it for other people, it's

607
00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:13,240
Speaker 2: either getting presented as this like quirky moral good they're

608
00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:15,720
Speaker 2: like motive isn't really that I was able to figure

609
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:18,800
Speaker 2: out explain, but it certainly makes them useful to the

610
00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:20,560
Speaker 2: locals and makes people like you if you're the person

611
00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:25,360
Speaker 2: who always like makes everything work okay, you know. These

612
00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:28,480
Speaker 2: pirates and many many others married locals and got involved

613
00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:31,880
Speaker 2: in local politics, basically becoming part of the large clan

614
00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:34,200
Speaker 2: families in some cases and in other cases, they would

615
00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:36,080
Speaker 2: set up these like cities of women on the coast,

616
00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:42,360
Speaker 2: and then a local group of five clans elected themselves

617
00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:44,120
Speaker 2: or picked it. I don't know how they picked it

618
00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:47,360
Speaker 2: ended up with a high king and they formed the

619
00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:52,320
Speaker 2: Sokoa Confederation. These folks, they're slightly further to the south,

620
00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:55,240
Speaker 2: and they were landlocked or they didn't specifically control a port,

621
00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:58,320
Speaker 2: and they didn't want to be landlocked, so they conquered

622
00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:01,720
Speaker 2: the ports, and they were dicks about it. According to

623
00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:05,200
Speaker 2: some sources, they were just absolute tyrants. Their leader was

624
00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:08,640
Speaker 2: a guy named raman Gano, which is more of a

625
00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:11,880
Speaker 2: title than a name, and it means he who does

626
00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:13,200
Speaker 2: exactly as he pleases.

627
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:14,360
Speaker 3: Oh god.

628
00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:15,520
Speaker 2: Yeah.

629
00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:17,640
Speaker 3: So so Elon Musk comes.

630
00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:21,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's our main villain here.

631
00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:22,000
Speaker 3: Yeah.

632
00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:24,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a war that's gonna there's gonna be a

633
00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:25,640
Speaker 2: rebellion in a war. It's kind of one of the

634
00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:27,400
Speaker 2: main things that we're gonna talk about the rest of

635
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:31,120
Speaker 2: this episode. And there's only one fucking source on it again,

636
00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:34,120
Speaker 2: and this is a different source. This source is that

637
00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:39,200
Speaker 2: a French spy, years later, working for a European con man,

638
00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:42,360
Speaker 2: went around and interviewed the rebels about what they had

639
00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:43,640
Speaker 2: done forty years earlier.

640
00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:46,440
Speaker 3: Okay, okay, I'm gonna go to Tangent. You're gonna forgive me.

641
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:48,960
Speaker 3: So why does a fucking con man have a spy

642
00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:50,840
Speaker 3: And does the spy know that the guy is a

643
00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:52,280
Speaker 3: con man or does he think that he's like a

644
00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:54,800
Speaker 3: lost Romanov monarch? What the fuck tell me? You gotta

645
00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:55,080
Speaker 3: tell me?

646
00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:57,320
Speaker 2: Oh my god. It was so complicated that I was

647
00:31:57,360 --> 00:31:59,400
Speaker 2: like I started writing into the script and then I

648
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:04,240
Speaker 2: was like, this is so complicated. It he was trying

649
00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:07,520
Speaker 2: to prove some shit about the way that Matta Gascar

650
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:10,560
Speaker 2: was so he could like sell some shit to some Europeans.

651
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:14,920
Speaker 2: Like he was like he like wanted to basically, I think,

652
00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:16,640
Speaker 2: like sell settlements or something.

653
00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:19,880
Speaker 3: So he's like selling fucking time shares to the Europeans,

654
00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:22,280
Speaker 3: and he has a spy to like get Intel to

655
00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:24,080
Speaker 3: sell to sell like fake time shares.

656
00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:27,760
Speaker 2: I don't think you're wrong, but I also don't know

657
00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:30,600
Speaker 2: if you're right. I basically like this part of it.

658
00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:33,840
Speaker 2: I was like, oh my god, this is so complicated.

659
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:36,240
Speaker 2: The thing that it is was so complicated that I

660
00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:37,800
Speaker 2: was like, I'm going to simplify this. But if I

661
00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:39,600
Speaker 2: had thought this through and realized that you were my guests,

662
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:41,400
Speaker 2: I realized I should have done the European con men

663
00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:42,400
Speaker 2: more justice that.

664
00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:43,760
Speaker 3: I was going to just like tear you down that

665
00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:44,720
Speaker 3: rabbit hole, you know.

666
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:49,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, and this is where our history comes from, right,

667
00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:51,600
Speaker 2: So this is not a reliable source. But this man

668
00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:55,120
Speaker 2: does seem to be genuinely really and he fell doun

669
00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:57,920
Speaker 2: a fucking rabbit hole. He was like, I want to

670
00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:02,680
Speaker 2: know about this fucking confederation of rebels that's going to form.

671
00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:05,920
Speaker 2: But he's talking to people and he builds his hagiography, right,

672
00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:10,280
Speaker 2: like the making of a saint about this man who

673
00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:12,120
Speaker 2: we're going to talk about soon. The sort of the

674
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:14,959
Speaker 2: person who's presented as the grand leader of this confederation,

675
00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:19,360
Speaker 2: and it absolutely emphasizes this great man of history narrative

676
00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:22,560
Speaker 2: of what's to come. But that narrative is not held

677
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:27,040
Speaker 2: up by anthropological evidence. So Graber's claim is that this

678
00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:30,600
Speaker 2: is another mock king. This is a war chief who

679
00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:32,960
Speaker 2: has now been They're like, oh, yeah, we totally have

680
00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:34,400
Speaker 2: a high king. Don't fuck with us.

681
00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:37,680
Speaker 3: Oh wow wow. So this guy does not actually have

682
00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:40,400
Speaker 3: any of the power of a king. He's a guy

683
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:42,760
Speaker 3: that was good in battle, and then when the battle

684
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:45,239
Speaker 3: is over, he's no longer in power. But they make

685
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:47,760
Speaker 3: him like almost like a mascot, like a mythological figure.

686
00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:50,400
Speaker 2: Yes, and no, he still has some of the same

687
00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:53,040
Speaker 2: power as like kind of the like heads of clans

688
00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:55,240
Speaker 2: and stuff we were talking about earlier, where he can

689
00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:57,720
Speaker 2: like summon up some warriors and he sort of gets

690
00:33:57,720 --> 00:33:59,760
Speaker 2: as many wives as he wants and stuff. But he

691
00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:04,400
Speaker 2: all the decisions are still being made by consensus decision

692
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:06,960
Speaker 2: making councils that take days.

693
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:09,680
Speaker 3: Oh god, oh god, and have the most truculent person

694
00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:12,640
Speaker 3: ever keep everyone from taking care of their kids.

695
00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:15,000
Speaker 2: That night, Yeah, they had the people's mic. It was great.

696
00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:16,480
Speaker 3: Oh fuck man.

697
00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:19,600
Speaker 2: And so this is the best narrative we have about

698
00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:23,400
Speaker 2: this war, the unreliable narrator. He said that the conquering

699
00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:28,000
Speaker 2: of port towns by this Soca confederation meant quote, their

700
00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:30,400
Speaker 2: young daughters were taken away and sold on board to

701
00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:34,520
Speaker 2: European ships who frequented the coasts. The slightest murmur was

702
00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:39,279
Speaker 2: punished by slavery and death. And basically they were doing

703
00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:41,799
Speaker 2: the stuff that like European settlers had been doing. They

704
00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:46,560
Speaker 2: were like state making. They were stealing everything that they wanted.

705
00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:49,239
Speaker 2: They were desecrating the tombs of ancestors. It's not a

706
00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:51,360
Speaker 2: specifically state making thing, but it's a shitty thing to do.

707
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:56,040
Speaker 2: And whole towns were wiped out. And it's probable that

708
00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:59,440
Speaker 2: his power wasn't so completely absolute because there wasn't really

709
00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:03,200
Speaker 2: a state apparatus to like seas and wield. But they

710
00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:06,120
Speaker 2: took control of everything they could. They taxed everything, they

711
00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:10,319
Speaker 2: desecrated tombs, and they started doing slave raids instead of

712
00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:12,440
Speaker 2: the way that you're supposed to do slavery at this time,

713
00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:16,160
Speaker 2: which is the captives. That thing that had gotten so

714
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:19,759
Speaker 2: many pirates killed a few years back. Now this Malagasy

715
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:25,319
Speaker 2: chief is doing. People were unhappy, and so they did

716
00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:29,440
Speaker 2: something about it which actually involved, in addition to modern weapons,

717
00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:31,800
Speaker 2: which is not a sponsor of our show, it involved

718
00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:34,799
Speaker 2: medieval weapons or hand to hand weapons, because it's not

719
00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:40,200
Speaker 2: specifically part of the medieval period. But Spears, you ever

720
00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:43,880
Speaker 2: held a spear? It's nice this show brought to you

721
00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:49,520
Speaker 2: by Spears. Get the new Spears catalog and whatever other

722
00:35:49,560 --> 00:36:01,320
Speaker 2: ads come next, and we're back. The person who is

723
00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:03,280
Speaker 2: presented as the big man of history of this story

724
00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:08,720
Speaker 2: is a man named Ratsimalajo, and he is an interesting fellow.

725
00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:13,360
Speaker 2: He seems genuinely coal. It's just, you know, he wasn't

726
00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:18,760
Speaker 2: the king of everything. Probably Ratsimalajo wasn't himself a pirate,

727
00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:21,080
Speaker 2: or if he was, he didn't do it for very long.

728
00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:23,680
Speaker 2: His father was a pirate. His father was an English

729
00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:28,600
Speaker 2: pirate named either Tom or Tomo. Maybe Fomo. It's probably Tomo,

730
00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:34,680
Speaker 2: it's Thamo, some weird English name, and everyone's like, oh,

731
00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:36,839
Speaker 2: he was the son of Tom too, or like other

732
00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:39,920
Speaker 2: famous Tom pirates. He almost certainly was not. He was

733
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:42,960
Speaker 2: almost certainly the son of some pirate named Tom. There

734
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:46,000
Speaker 2: were a lot of pirates named Tom, because there's a

735
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:47,960
Speaker 2: lot of people named Tom, and a lot of people

736
00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:51,560
Speaker 2: are pirates. His dad was just some guy. But the

737
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:55,000
Speaker 2: thing is, when your dad's just some guy and a pirate,

738
00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:58,279
Speaker 2: it means his dad was rich as shit, because if

739
00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:01,800
Speaker 2: you're a pirate, there's two things. You are rich and doomed.

740
00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:04,080
Speaker 3: The most romantic figure on earth.

741
00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:06,520
Speaker 2: I know. I don't understand how people are so in

742
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:09,480
Speaker 2: love with it. I can't imagine. Yeah, so he's rich

743
00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:12,400
Speaker 2: as shit. His mother was named Rahenna and was the

744
00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:14,280
Speaker 2: daughter of one of the leaders of one of the clans,

745
00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:15,879
Speaker 2: one of the people who would sort of get called

746
00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:19,279
Speaker 2: a king. We're pretty sure about that. We're pretty sure

747
00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:23,839
Speaker 2: that his parents' names. Everything else, we're not so sure about.

748
00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:26,000
Speaker 2: The most common story, which may as well be true,

749
00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:27,839
Speaker 2: So I'll tell it like it is, is that when

750
00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:29,520
Speaker 2: he was a teenager, his dad sent him off to

751
00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:32,120
Speaker 2: England for an education, and he was like, I don't

752
00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:35,360
Speaker 2: like Englin. Fuck this. He came home and so his

753
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:37,120
Speaker 2: dad was like, all right, well, here's a ton of

754
00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:39,600
Speaker 2: guns and money, go and earn your way in life.

755
00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:44,520
Speaker 2: And what he did was lead a revolution, or join

756
00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:46,799
Speaker 2: one as an equal among other war chiefs. Helping lead

757
00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:51,960
Speaker 2: a revolution. In seventeen twelve, he's eighteen years old. He

758
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:53,520
Speaker 2: and some of his friends are like, all right, let's

759
00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:56,799
Speaker 2: go fuck this tyranny. Shut up. They sent someone down

760
00:37:56,800 --> 00:37:59,440
Speaker 2: to go talk to that high king and be like, hey, look,

761
00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:02,239
Speaker 2: you really wanted a port. You keep one of the

762
00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:05,920
Speaker 2: ports and give all the rest back. How's that sound

763
00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:09,520
Speaker 2: And they were like, no, we're in charge. Fuck you.

764
00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:14,040
Speaker 2: So the rebels set up a rebel camp. Local folks

765
00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:17,120
Speaker 2: are like, oh, I want to not have tyranny. That

766
00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:20,960
Speaker 2: sounds nice. And so they get together a cabrey An

767
00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:23,840
Speaker 2: assembly and they figure this is going to take days,

768
00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:26,200
Speaker 2: So they build little shacks and shit to sleep in

769
00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:26,759
Speaker 2: while they talk.

770
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:29,040
Speaker 3: We should have thought of that. Why didn't we think

771
00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:29,239
Speaker 3: of that?

772
00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:32,880
Speaker 2: I know, I mean tense, but you know, not quite.

773
00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:34,759
Speaker 3: The same on hard concrete, nah, I know.

774
00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:36,920
Speaker 2: And also just like admitting that you're like, no, the

775
00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:39,080
Speaker 2: meeting is going to take days, like that is what.

776
00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:42,640
Speaker 2: That is the weird downside of horizontal life. But you

777
00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:45,120
Speaker 2: know what, if you do it right, it's fun. And

778
00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:48,480
Speaker 2: then here's a part that I'm curious about. The main

779
00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:51,719
Speaker 2: source is that this particular Cabarey, very much as an

780
00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:55,560
Speaker 2: exception to the norm, excluded women. No women allowed at

781
00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:57,800
Speaker 2: our war talk party.

782
00:38:58,040 --> 00:38:58,360
Speaker 1: Why not?

783
00:38:58,440 --> 00:38:58,759
Speaker 2: Why not?

784
00:38:58,880 --> 00:38:59,200
Speaker 3: Why not?

785
00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:03,480
Speaker 2: So oh the way it's sort of presented, Okay, So

786
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:05,400
Speaker 2: one of the reasons it might have been written that

787
00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:08,200
Speaker 2: way is that the source like he actually had a

788
00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:11,040
Speaker 2: version where he was like, no cabarets allowed women, and

789
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:12,600
Speaker 2: then he had to like cross that out because it

790
00:39:12,640 --> 00:39:15,600
Speaker 2: was like so blatantly untrue. But so like, yeah, I

791
00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:18,120
Speaker 2: get him. I get the impression this guy like wasn't

792
00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:23,520
Speaker 2: a big woman lover or appreciator, respect her, and I

793
00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:27,520
Speaker 2: think all of those things misogynist will call themselves. But

794
00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:32,440
Speaker 2: the other argument that seems to have some credit is

795
00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:37,880
Speaker 2: that this was like oddly at statement around returning rule

796
00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:42,120
Speaker 2: back to the sort of linear clan structure instead of

797
00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:46,160
Speaker 2: this new economic force of women in the cities, even

798
00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:48,399
Speaker 2: though the women in the cities were not part of

799
00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:52,560
Speaker 2: this new evil empire thing that was taking over, right,

800
00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:54,600
Speaker 2: And so it was kind of like almost like a

801
00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:57,840
Speaker 2: weird classes the wrong construction. But it was like a

802
00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:00,960
Speaker 2: weird thing. But I also I wonder whether it's even

803
00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:04,040
Speaker 2: true because of something I'm going to say about their oath. Yeah,

804
00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:05,839
Speaker 2: so they get together for days and they talk about

805
00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:07,279
Speaker 2: whether or not to go to war, and they hear

806
00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:10,319
Speaker 2: everyone out, and in the end they reach consensus they

807
00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:13,520
Speaker 2: will form a new confederation and go to war. This

808
00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:18,919
Speaker 2: new confederation is called the Betsimisaraka. Or actually it's funny

809
00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:20,520
Speaker 2: because I've seen it spelled a bunch of different ways.

810
00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:22,399
Speaker 2: The Internet wants to spell it differently than Graver wants

811
00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:23,799
Speaker 2: to spell in this book. They might not have an

812
00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:26,200
Speaker 2: a at the end of it. I don't know. It's

813
00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:30,919
Speaker 2: different sources complain with each other. This name means those

814
00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:33,719
Speaker 2: who will not be sundered, Like the confederation isn't going

815
00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:36,000
Speaker 2: to break up. We are a fucking unbreakable. It's a

816
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:39,200
Speaker 2: good name. And they do a bunch of rituals before

817
00:40:39,239 --> 00:40:41,319
Speaker 2: they decide to go to war. Right, These meetings kind

818
00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:44,200
Speaker 2: of sound fucking interesting, right. You go for several days,

819
00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:46,560
Speaker 2: you camp out, you argue ship for a long ass time,

820
00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:50,320
Speaker 2: and at the end they do both a pirate ritual,

821
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:53,560
Speaker 2: which was that they drank seawater mixed with gunpowder.

822
00:40:54,120 --> 00:40:56,239
Speaker 3: What the fuck? And how are they like living after

823
00:40:56,280 --> 00:40:57,600
Speaker 3: this lovely pirate ritual?

824
00:40:57,840 --> 00:40:59,960
Speaker 2: Well, what's funny is that usually it was just seawater

825
00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:02,800
Speaker 2: and gunpowder, but this one they also seem to have

826
00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:06,760
Speaker 2: put like musket balls and stuff in it. So, which

827
00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:10,040
Speaker 2: is that scene from The fucking Crow right where they

828
00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:13,960
Speaker 2: like drink bullets with their fucking whiskey.

829
00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:17,560
Speaker 3: What the fuck? I must have blocked that one out

830
00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:18,680
Speaker 3: in my goth upbringing.

831
00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:21,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, the very beginning of the Crow, the like arsonist

832
00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:24,920
Speaker 2: crew that's like running around being the batties. They're like

833
00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:27,239
Speaker 2: fired up, and then they like take a shot and

834
00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:31,200
Speaker 2: drink a bullet or I guess a cartridge because it

835
00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:34,560
Speaker 2: has all the stuff, and so that's like weirdly accurate

836
00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:35,279
Speaker 2: pirate thing.

837
00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:37,279
Speaker 3: I'm starting to believe that there aren't any women at

838
00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:39,520
Speaker 3: this assemblies, that they're doing this fair enough.

839
00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:42,239
Speaker 2: There's only one line that makes me think otherwise, okay,

840
00:41:42,320 --> 00:41:47,520
Speaker 2: and probably there weren't women. Now Ratsimalajo is the only

841
00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:50,880
Speaker 2: partly white person in attendance. Probably there's a lot of

842
00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:53,640
Speaker 2: like the way that this whole rebellion has talked about it.

843
00:41:53,640 --> 00:41:55,480
Speaker 2: It's talked about as if all of the sons of

844
00:41:55,520 --> 00:41:58,680
Speaker 2: the white pirates and the non white Indigenous women are

845
00:41:58,719 --> 00:42:01,120
Speaker 2: the people who rose up. But like there's a lot

846
00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:03,160
Speaker 2: of anthropological reasons that that is not to believe that

847
00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:05,239
Speaker 2: is not the case, mostly in that most of those

848
00:42:05,239 --> 00:42:08,719
Speaker 2: people were children at the time, but pirate culture is

849
00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:11,719
Speaker 2: rubbing off on folks. The other ritual they do is

850
00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:15,160
Speaker 2: a malagassy ritual. They each cut their own stomachs the

851
00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:17,560
Speaker 2: tiniest bit to draw blood the way that we might

852
00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:19,440
Speaker 2: like prick a finger or like cut a palm in

853
00:42:19,520 --> 00:42:22,840
Speaker 2: like other literature, you know, they're not like gutting themselves.

854
00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:25,480
Speaker 2: And then they soak a piece of ginger root in

855
00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:29,040
Speaker 2: everyone's blood, and then they swear an oath to one another,

856
00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:32,799
Speaker 2: and then they eat the ginger. Here's the quote. They

857
00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:35,600
Speaker 2: swore a solemn oath to take back their land, to

858
00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:38,600
Speaker 2: stop letting their wives and daughters be sold off overseas,

859
00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:42,560
Speaker 2: and to stop letting their husbands die. Oh and that's

860
00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:44,960
Speaker 2: the line where I'm like, wait, you said no women allowed,

861
00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:47,040
Speaker 2: but their oath is like, let's stop letting husbands die.

862
00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:49,479
Speaker 2: And I'm not. I mean, I don't know. Maybe they're queer,

863
00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:51,200
Speaker 2: but like I feel like that would have come up.

864
00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:52,279
Speaker 1: I don't know.

865
00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:57,000
Speaker 2: And this was a war basically to prevent the creation

866
00:42:57,080 --> 00:43:01,360
Speaker 2: of a state, to preserve the lineage clan structure. Along

867
00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:03,200
Speaker 2: the way. They put a lot of work, but not

868
00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:05,799
Speaker 2: like infinite work into making sure the war captives would

869
00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:08,279
Speaker 2: be returned to their families. They were like very into like, no, no,

870
00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:11,040
Speaker 2: we ran some people back instead of selling them away overseas.

871
00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:13,799
Speaker 2: This did not turn into a like let's free all

872
00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:17,759
Speaker 2: the slaves thing. And they went to war and they

873
00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:21,279
Speaker 2: won first. At first they win, they trapped the high

874
00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:24,400
Speaker 2: king in his mountain fortress, and the piece from what

875
00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:26,920
Speaker 2: they originally offered. They're like, hey, you can have one port,

876
00:43:27,080 --> 00:43:30,080
Speaker 2: but just stop fucking taking everything over. And they agreed

877
00:43:30,080 --> 00:43:32,200
Speaker 2: to those terms. But then they break the truce and

878
00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:34,320
Speaker 2: the war goes on for years. It lasts from seventeen

879
00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:39,840
Speaker 2: twelve to seventeen twenty. Eventually the new confederation, the Betsimisaraka,

880
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:45,120
Speaker 2: they win. During this war, the pirates in the coastal towns,

881
00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:47,279
Speaker 2: some of them maybe went and fought and stuff, but

882
00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:50,120
Speaker 2: like overall they're kind of staying out of it, except

883
00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:54,280
Speaker 2: they're helping the rebellion behind the scenes. The pirates pretended

884
00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:56,640
Speaker 2: to play both sides, but they supported the rebellion. They

885
00:43:56,640 --> 00:43:59,120
Speaker 2: sold over priced muskets to the enemy in order to

886
00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:02,360
Speaker 2: get prisoners free, and then supplied the rebels more honestly,

887
00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:06,080
Speaker 2: and this is like, this would be such a fucking

888
00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:08,600
Speaker 2: good setting. I would watch the shit out of a

889
00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:11,840
Speaker 2: long ass series set in this war. Hell's yes, Hell's yes,

890
00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:17,280
Speaker 2: you're talking about like some guns, because there's some guns available,

891
00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:20,359
Speaker 2: but that mostly really shitty guns because the colonial center

892
00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:24,640
Speaker 2: doesn't like sending it's good guns out overseas. But Ratsimlajo

893
00:44:25,320 --> 00:44:27,920
Speaker 2: he actually has some really good guns, and so like

894
00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:30,400
Speaker 2: that's one of the main reasons that they win. And

895
00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:33,040
Speaker 2: then there's this whole thing about how like it's still

896
00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:36,239
Speaker 2: the like heroic warfare where there's a lot of like

897
00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:38,560
Speaker 2: one on one fights and duels in the middle of

898
00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:42,480
Speaker 2: battles and shit, while mixed with modern warfare where the

899
00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:46,160
Speaker 2: like overall grand strategy was around disruption of supply lines.

900
00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:49,560
Speaker 2: And it's just like it's like it's like a strategy dream.

901
00:44:49,560 --> 00:44:52,960
Speaker 3: Like, so it's the exact moment where everything is changing,

902
00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:55,440
Speaker 3: but where you still could possibly have this notion in

903
00:44:55,440 --> 00:44:56,960
Speaker 3: your head that warfare was romantic.

904
00:44:57,600 --> 00:45:00,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's not near the colonial center and no

905
00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:04,600
Speaker 2: neither side is armed by the colonial center, so you

906
00:45:04,640 --> 00:45:10,880
Speaker 2: have yeah, and uh. Along the way, Ratsimalajo during the

907
00:45:10,920 --> 00:45:14,160
Speaker 2: first Truce, he's made the high king of the whole confederation.

908
00:45:14,440 --> 00:45:17,319
Speaker 2: That's what everyone says but there's no evidence to back

909
00:45:17,360 --> 00:45:20,360
Speaker 2: that up that he actually took any there's a lot

910
00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:23,600
Speaker 2: of there's no state formation that ever forms, there's no

911
00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:27,120
Speaker 2: sense that he centralized any control, and other contemporary sources

912
00:45:27,160 --> 00:45:29,520
Speaker 2: are very clear that he was just one war chief

913
00:45:29,560 --> 00:45:32,480
Speaker 2: among others, or even there's multiple things that are like,

914
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:35,359
Speaker 2: oh no, here's this other guy's second in command. Oh shit,

915
00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:37,719
Speaker 2: he might not even been a war chief at all. Right,

916
00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:39,920
Speaker 2: there's like two different guys that he's like, Ah, is

917
00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:43,000
Speaker 2: that guy's second in command? Like he is the guy

918
00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:45,120
Speaker 2: that they're like, Oh, you're the guy. That's fine, we

919
00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:45,719
Speaker 2: needed the.

920
00:45:45,760 --> 00:45:48,440
Speaker 3: Guy, Like you're the charismatic figurehead.

921
00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:52,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, only I think that to present to the outside world.

922
00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:53,680
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah.

923
00:45:53,719 --> 00:45:56,319
Speaker 2: Although after the war, it does seem like he kind

924
00:45:56,320 --> 00:45:59,239
Speaker 2: of becomes one of these sort of you know, like

925
00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:02,000
Speaker 2: quote unquote and I don't mean to when I say

926
00:46:02,040 --> 00:46:03,719
Speaker 2: quote unquote kings, I'm not trying to put it down.

927
00:46:03,719 --> 00:46:07,280
Speaker 2: I'm rather saying, like, fuck the European assumption that everyone's

928
00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:12,080
Speaker 2: a king, you know, and the rumors in Europe are

929
00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:15,240
Speaker 2: that there's this great high king and this powerful kingdom

930
00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:18,840
Speaker 2: because they're doing the pirate thing, They're like, got powerful

931
00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:23,080
Speaker 2: ruler leave us the fuck alone, and they win, and

932
00:46:23,160 --> 00:46:28,040
Speaker 2: for thirty years there's peace in this confederation. Ratsimalajo is

933
00:46:28,120 --> 00:46:30,200
Speaker 2: the king in his way. He has a rich court,

934
00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:33,320
Speaker 2: but lots of people have rich courts. Again, the greatest

935
00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:36,400
Speaker 2: treasure hall in history has come here and couldn't be sold,

936
00:46:36,520 --> 00:46:36,719
Speaker 2: you know.

937
00:46:37,160 --> 00:46:40,160
Speaker 3: So everyone is hanging around with rubies and diamonds, and

938
00:46:40,360 --> 00:46:43,360
Speaker 3: there are liberated women wearing their love charms to the ocean,

939
00:46:43,480 --> 00:46:44,959
Speaker 3: and it is the best party ever.

940
00:46:45,760 --> 00:46:49,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, or none of that's true, you know, It's like

941
00:46:49,040 --> 00:46:51,040
Speaker 2: it's like, yeah, it's like seems like that is that

942
00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:53,360
Speaker 2: is a very likely way of reading it, And I

943
00:46:53,360 --> 00:46:55,040
Speaker 2: suspect it's like one of those things where it's like

944
00:46:55,520 --> 00:46:58,120
Speaker 2: I suspect a lot of people experience the society that way,

945
00:46:58,120 --> 00:47:00,680
Speaker 2: and other people experience the society very differently, you know.

946
00:47:01,640 --> 00:47:03,520
Speaker 2: And with his power as one of the kings, he

947
00:47:03,520 --> 00:47:06,239
Speaker 2: can summon soldiers, but like only some of them, he

948
00:47:06,280 --> 00:47:11,120
Speaker 2: has no particular executive power. Malagasy culture in this confederation

949
00:47:11,600 --> 00:47:17,000
Speaker 2: becomes explicitly more egalitarian than Malagasy culture elsewhere. The priest

950
00:47:17,120 --> 00:47:19,680
Speaker 2: caste and the warrior cast are more or less gone.

951
00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:23,239
Speaker 2: Clans are no longer ranked against one another. There is

952
00:47:23,239 --> 00:47:27,279
Speaker 2: an exception. The Zana Malata is the sort of new

953
00:47:27,320 --> 00:47:31,000
Speaker 2: class formed by the mixed race descendants of pirates, and

954
00:47:31,040 --> 00:47:34,399
Speaker 2: they form a sort of nobility, and that's why there's

955
00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:37,560
Speaker 2: kind of this like rumor. That's why the legend is

956
00:47:37,600 --> 00:47:39,359
Speaker 2: that these are the people who like fought to build

957
00:47:39,360 --> 00:47:43,759
Speaker 2: the confederation, whereas like, they almost certainly weren't. But what's

958
00:47:43,800 --> 00:47:47,840
Speaker 2: interesting is that the raising of them to power was

959
00:47:47,880 --> 00:47:51,320
Speaker 2: actually the raising of their mothers to power, right, because

960
00:47:51,320 --> 00:47:53,960
Speaker 2: they're children at this time, and so it's all of

961
00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:57,120
Speaker 2: the women of the cities who are like, all right,

962
00:47:57,640 --> 00:48:00,520
Speaker 2: we're going to build this like weird new merchant nobility.

963
00:48:01,480 --> 00:48:05,360
Speaker 2: And yeah, they created a mock kingdom which was already

964
00:48:05,360 --> 00:48:07,200
Speaker 2: more a galitarian than what we fucking live in now.

965
00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:12,640
Speaker 2: Decisions continue to be made in consensus based assemblies. Unfortunately,

966
00:48:13,680 --> 00:48:16,320
Speaker 2: pirates were cleared out of the area by Western European

967
00:48:16,360 --> 00:48:19,040
Speaker 2: powers around seventeen twenty four, and so the slave trade

968
00:48:19,040 --> 00:48:22,680
Speaker 2: comes back. So even during this like a galitarian, beautiful confederation,

969
00:48:23,360 --> 00:48:27,240
Speaker 2: slave trades back. And then the Great Confederation fell apart

970
00:48:27,560 --> 00:48:32,000
Speaker 2: after Ratsimalaju died, and the argument that the most likely

971
00:48:32,080 --> 00:48:35,160
Speaker 2: reason why it fell apart when he died. Is that

972
00:48:35,560 --> 00:48:39,320
Speaker 2: the Zanomalada the new sort of powerful nobility or whatever.

973
00:48:40,080 --> 00:48:43,280
Speaker 2: A lot of them don't want their kids to even

974
00:48:43,320 --> 00:48:46,600
Speaker 2: marry other Zanamlada. They want their kids to marry foreigners.

975
00:48:46,760 --> 00:48:50,600
Speaker 2: They want their kids to marry hey, because there's this

976
00:48:50,719 --> 00:48:56,400
Speaker 2: whole concept there of the sort of like the foreigners

977
00:48:56,400 --> 00:48:59,080
Speaker 2: this interesting and powerful person worth bringing in. They bring

978
00:48:59,080 --> 00:49:01,279
Speaker 2: in the riches and do all of this stuff, right,

979
00:49:01,800 --> 00:49:04,520
Speaker 2: and so there's this like, if you marry a foreigner,

980
00:49:04,880 --> 00:49:10,040
Speaker 2: we will become more powerful. Unfortunately, what instead happened is

981
00:49:10,080 --> 00:49:12,920
Speaker 2: that enough people who had enough power married enough foreigners

982
00:49:12,920 --> 00:49:15,760
Speaker 2: that they fell under foreign influence and basically betrayed the island.

983
00:49:16,680 --> 00:49:21,120
Speaker 2: So that's how it ended. But along the way they

984
00:49:21,160 --> 00:49:24,279
Speaker 2: did this like crazy experiment that was like kind of

985
00:49:24,320 --> 00:49:26,600
Speaker 2: weird and kind of misogynistic at its core, but also

986
00:49:26,920 --> 00:49:31,840
Speaker 2: fascinating and egalitarian. And it's so messy and it's so interesting.

987
00:49:31,960 --> 00:49:33,000
Speaker 2: That's how I feel about it.

988
00:49:33,680 --> 00:49:37,000
Speaker 3: And it's so interesting on two levels, right, Like there's

989
00:49:37,080 --> 00:49:40,120
Speaker 3: the the level of the actual fact, like all those

990
00:49:40,160 --> 00:49:43,560
Speaker 3: fucking alliances, like a spy for a con man, that

991
00:49:44,200 --> 00:49:47,640
Speaker 3: people dripping rubies, like all of the stuff that's unknown.

992
00:49:47,680 --> 00:49:50,560
Speaker 3: But then there's also the cultural residence right of the legend.

993
00:49:51,040 --> 00:49:54,080
Speaker 3: I mean, I just remember like being this weirdo, you know,

994
00:49:54,239 --> 00:49:57,520
Speaker 3: kid hanging on the anarchist bookstore because I lived literally

995
00:49:57,520 --> 00:49:59,960
Speaker 3: in one room with two roommates that we divided up,

996
00:50:00,120 --> 00:50:02,279
Speaker 3: curtains that had no window, and a fucking suck, so

997
00:50:02,280 --> 00:50:05,319
Speaker 3: I need to be in the anarchist bookstore and you know,

998
00:50:05,880 --> 00:50:09,080
Speaker 3: reading sort of I'm not going to call them history books,

999
00:50:09,080 --> 00:50:13,120
Speaker 3: but basically like these sort of cultural the like flickerings,

1000
00:50:13,160 --> 00:50:16,359
Speaker 3: the cultural flickerings produced by this and being inspired as

1001
00:50:16,760 --> 00:50:18,640
Speaker 3: on a different way to live. And I think that

1002
00:50:19,680 --> 00:50:21,719
Speaker 3: something I've thought a lot about when I'm trying to

1003
00:50:21,719 --> 00:50:24,279
Speaker 3: write history. It's like there's the real truth, which is

1004
00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:27,480
Speaker 3: always more messy and sordid and treacherous and fucked up

1005
00:50:27,520 --> 00:50:30,360
Speaker 3: that you can possibly imagine, and has no clear moral lesson.

1006
00:50:30,719 --> 00:50:33,520
Speaker 3: But then there's also the poetic afterlife, which often does

1007
00:50:33,600 --> 00:50:36,600
Speaker 3: have a clear moral lesson because it's imposed on that

1008
00:50:36,600 --> 00:50:39,799
Speaker 3: that influences so many other things in the future and

1009
00:50:40,080 --> 00:50:42,000
Speaker 3: is fascinating in its own way. And I always think

1010
00:50:42,040 --> 00:50:45,000
Speaker 3: the interaction between how do I put it, the beautiful

1011
00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:50,440
Speaker 3: and inspirational bullshit that that drives the presence versus the twisted,

1012
00:50:51,800 --> 00:50:55,279
Speaker 3: treacherous but fascinating and human story of the past. That

1013
00:50:55,320 --> 00:50:58,719
Speaker 3: interaction obsesses me and I feel it's so much here.

1014
00:50:59,000 --> 00:51:01,280
Speaker 2: No, that makes so much sense, because that is absolutely

1015
00:51:01,360 --> 00:51:04,520
Speaker 2: what's happening. And the thing that I love honestly about

1016
00:51:04,520 --> 00:51:06,800
Speaker 2: Graver's work, and then also just one of things I

1017
00:51:06,800 --> 00:51:10,120
Speaker 2: love about fiction is just saying, like, look, I'm not

1018
00:51:10,160 --> 00:51:12,359
Speaker 2: going to paint a better society, I'm just gonna paint

1019
00:51:12,360 --> 00:51:15,120
Speaker 2: a different one. Or maybe it's better, but it's not perfect,

1020
00:51:15,520 --> 00:51:18,080
Speaker 2: because one, there is no perfect with society. And two,

1021
00:51:19,120 --> 00:51:22,319
Speaker 2: just like things don't have to be the way they

1022
00:51:22,360 --> 00:51:26,040
Speaker 2: are because they can be different. They have been different before,

1023
00:51:26,200 --> 00:51:29,440
Speaker 2: they will be different again. It's something we need to

1024
00:51:29,480 --> 00:51:33,480
Speaker 2: know because, to constantly quote our Solo Gwin, we live

1025
00:51:33,560 --> 00:51:36,480
Speaker 2: under capitalism. Its power seems inescapable, so do the divine

1026
00:51:36,520 --> 00:51:39,440
Speaker 2: right of kings. We struggle to imagine that things could

1027
00:51:39,440 --> 00:51:42,560
Speaker 2: be different. And one thing I love about Graver's anthropology

1028
00:51:42,600 --> 00:51:46,279
Speaker 2: is an anthropology in general and specifically like anthropology that

1029
00:51:46,400 --> 00:51:49,480
Speaker 2: stops looking at things from such a white European point

1030
00:51:49,480 --> 00:51:52,239
Speaker 2: of view, even though Graver's you know, a white man,

1031
00:51:52,239 --> 00:51:54,640
Speaker 2: but like is trying to undo a lot of that

1032
00:51:54,760 --> 00:51:58,840
Speaker 2: work is just saying things can be fucking different, And

1033
00:51:58,920 --> 00:51:59,320
Speaker 2: I think.

1034
00:51:59,200 --> 00:52:02,440
Speaker 3: It's so essential because the way the things are is

1035
00:52:02,640 --> 00:52:05,480
Speaker 3: collapsing around us. I mean, you were just you were

1036
00:52:05,480 --> 00:52:10,200
Speaker 3: just delivering mutual aid in this like unforeseen climate disaster.

1037
00:52:10,320 --> 00:52:12,759
Speaker 3: We're literally places that are so high above sea level

1038
00:52:12,840 --> 00:52:15,840
Speaker 3: or seeing the houses being wiped away. So it's like

1039
00:52:16,520 --> 00:52:19,239
Speaker 3: the physical, practical reality of the world is telling us

1040
00:52:19,280 --> 00:52:21,000
Speaker 3: that things are going to change, and so we have

1041
00:52:21,120 --> 00:52:24,200
Speaker 3: to realize that there are other ways of ourselves living.

1042
00:52:24,840 --> 00:52:27,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, and one of those ways is we could have

1043
00:52:27,320 --> 00:52:29,560
Speaker 2: fucking granaries where if you don't have enough food, you

1044
00:52:29,600 --> 00:52:30,960
Speaker 2: can just go get food at it.

1045
00:52:31,640 --> 00:52:33,600
Speaker 3: That would be the yeah, yeah we can.

1046
00:52:33,680 --> 00:52:36,120
Speaker 2: You don't even have to declaric communism or whatever. You

1047
00:52:36,120 --> 00:52:38,640
Speaker 2: can have a weird non egalitarian society where people just

1048
00:52:38,719 --> 00:52:40,960
Speaker 2: don't fucking starve to death and no one is means

1049
00:52:41,000 --> 00:52:42,360
Speaker 2: testing people getting food.

1050
00:52:43,280 --> 00:52:45,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, we could have that. We could have that.

1051
00:52:45,960 --> 00:52:51,160
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, what people can also have is information about

1052
00:52:51,200 --> 00:52:53,640
Speaker 2: how to follow you and your work.

1053
00:52:54,960 --> 00:52:59,160
Speaker 3: So you can go see my art at mollikrabapple dot com,

1054
00:52:59,239 --> 00:53:01,879
Speaker 3: or you can follow Instagram, which where I post all

1055
00:53:01,920 --> 00:53:07,040
Speaker 3: of my obsessive, obsessive drawings and I'm supposed to plug

1056
00:53:07,120 --> 00:53:09,560
Speaker 3: my two projects. So I have a book about the

1057
00:53:09,600 --> 00:53:14,440
Speaker 3: Jewish Labor Boond, a Jewish anti Zionist revolutionary party that

1058
00:53:14,480 --> 00:53:16,839
Speaker 3: I've been working on for five years. It's not coming

1059
00:53:16,880 --> 00:53:17,719
Speaker 3: out for another year.

1060
00:53:18,280 --> 00:53:19,120
Speaker 2: Books are like that.

1061
00:53:19,680 --> 00:53:21,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I just believe in it. Believe in it.

1062
00:53:21,239 --> 00:53:23,600
Speaker 3: It's going to come out. It's called here, where we

1063
00:53:23,640 --> 00:53:24,640
Speaker 3: live is Our Country.

1064
00:53:25,120 --> 00:53:26,640
Speaker 2: And that's such a good title.

1065
00:53:26,840 --> 00:53:30,200
Speaker 3: Thank you, thank you. It was the Boons slogan, and

1066
00:53:30,239 --> 00:53:32,359
Speaker 3: it was such a defiant thing, right because they're living

1067
00:53:32,400 --> 00:53:35,200
Speaker 3: in these countries that are so racist, that want nothing

1068
00:53:35,640 --> 00:53:38,359
Speaker 3: more than to expel them, and they're like, no, here

1069
00:53:38,440 --> 00:53:40,120
Speaker 3: is our fucking land. And if you don't like it,

1070
00:53:40,120 --> 00:53:41,160
Speaker 3: we have brass knuckles.

1071
00:53:41,560 --> 00:53:42,400
Speaker 2: Oh yeah.

1072
00:53:42,440 --> 00:53:45,320
Speaker 3: And then my other book that I'm doing with Indian

1073
00:53:45,440 --> 00:53:49,760
Speaker 3: historian Ruby Lal is a children's book about nor Jahan

1074
00:53:49,960 --> 00:53:53,520
Speaker 3: that Ruby is writing and I'm illustrating. It's called Tiger

1075
00:53:53,600 --> 00:53:57,160
Speaker 3: Slayer because nor Jehan hunted tigers with a musket from

1076
00:53:57,160 --> 00:53:58,000
Speaker 3: the back of elephants.

1077
00:53:59,160 --> 00:54:01,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's cool.

1078
00:54:01,920 --> 00:54:03,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, what do you say?

1079
00:54:03,400 --> 00:54:07,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm on tour. If you want to see me talk,

1080
00:54:07,960 --> 00:54:10,040
Speaker 2: I'm going to be reading fairy tales set in the

1081
00:54:10,040 --> 00:54:11,959
Speaker 2: same world as my book, because I decided it would

1082
00:54:11,960 --> 00:54:13,680
Speaker 2: be boring to go around and just read a part

1083
00:54:13,680 --> 00:54:15,560
Speaker 2: of my own book that you might have already read

1084
00:54:15,560 --> 00:54:17,319
Speaker 2: by now. It's a book called The Sapling Cage about

1085
00:54:17,320 --> 00:54:20,719
Speaker 2: a young trendswitch who has to disguise herself as a

1086
00:54:20,719 --> 00:54:22,439
Speaker 2: girl to go off and join the witches, and then

1087
00:54:22,960 --> 00:54:25,800
Speaker 2: has to defend the world from what's a thinly veiled

1088
00:54:25,840 --> 00:54:28,320
Speaker 2: metaphor for climate change and the destruction of the environment.

1089
00:54:29,000 --> 00:54:31,000
Speaker 2: And I will be reading fairy tales from that at

1090
00:54:31,000 --> 00:54:33,640
Speaker 2: a whole bunch of different places around the US. And

1091
00:54:33,880 --> 00:54:35,880
Speaker 2: if I'm not coming to your city specifically, it is

1092
00:54:35,920 --> 00:54:40,279
Speaker 2: because I dislike you personally, and that's the way it is.

1093
00:54:41,000 --> 00:54:42,879
Speaker 2: But you can check out my tour dates by going

1094
00:54:42,880 --> 00:54:45,920
Speaker 2: to my substack or my Instagram. My website's down so

1095
00:54:45,960 --> 00:54:48,040
Speaker 2: you can't go there. So if you guys, thing you

1096
00:54:48,040 --> 00:54:49,760
Speaker 2: want to plug, Yeah, I'll plug.

1097
00:54:49,800 --> 00:54:52,560
Speaker 1: A sixteenth Minute of Fame host by Jimmy Loftus. We've

1098
00:54:52,600 --> 00:54:55,520
Speaker 1: got a fun one coming out in this next month

1099
00:54:55,600 --> 00:54:59,480
Speaker 1: or so, all about viral hippo moo dang and why

1100
00:54:59,760 --> 00:55:02,280
Speaker 1: me be Zoo's not a great idea?

1101
00:55:02,680 --> 00:55:07,200
Speaker 2: Maybe? Hell yeah, I love how Jamie takes the like, hahaha,

1102
00:55:07,400 --> 00:55:10,520
Speaker 2: here's the funny, quirky thing. Now let's learn how the

1103
00:55:10,520 --> 00:55:11,640
Speaker 2: fucking world works.

1104
00:55:12,160 --> 00:55:17,399
Speaker 1: It's literally that. That is literally the episode. But yeah, all.

1105
00:55:17,360 --> 00:55:19,239
Speaker 2: Right, talk to you all next week.

1106
00:55:19,760 --> 00:55:20,719
Speaker 3: Bye, you see you later.

1107
00:55:26,120 --> 00:55:28,600
Speaker 1: Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff is a production of

1108
00:55:28,640 --> 00:55:31,760
Speaker 1: cool Zone Media. Or more podcasts on cool Zone Media,

1109
00:55:31,920 --> 00:55:35,160
Speaker 1: visit our website foolzonemedia dot com, or check us out

1110
00:55:35,239 --> 00:55:38,400
Speaker 1: on the iHeartRadio app, app A Podcasts, or wherever you

1111
00:55:38,440 --> 00:55:39,440
Speaker 1: get your podcasts.