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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, home of the

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Speaker 1: modern whitetail hunter and now your host, Mark Kenyon. Hey, everybody,

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Speaker 1: welcome to the Wire to Hunt podcast. I'm your guest

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Speaker 1: host Tony Peterson, and today I'm speaking with Jason Sumners,

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Speaker 1: who is the Science Branch Chief at the Missouri Department

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Speaker 1: of Conservation. All Right, folks, welcome to the Wire to

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Speaker 1: Hunt podcast, which is brought to you by First Light.

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Speaker 1: You might notice that this is not the velvety voice

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Speaker 1: of Mark Kenyon. He sent me a text last week

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Speaker 1: asking me to cover for him so he could attend

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Speaker 1: a Yosemite Sam Mustache competition, where, not surprisingly, our own

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Speaker 1: Clay Newcomb is one of the guest judges. Feel free

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Speaker 1: to wish Mark good luck on that one. I know

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Speaker 1: he really values his facial hair, so this is a

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Speaker 1: big opportunity for him. Anyway, today I'm speaking with Jason Sumners,

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Speaker 1: who is the Science Branch chief at the Missouri Department

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Speaker 1: of Conservation. Jason has been involved in a pile of

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Speaker 1: deer studies and dear research over the years. He's a

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Speaker 1: devout white tail and turkey hunter and it's just a

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Speaker 1: not only a good guy, but he's a wealth of

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Speaker 1: information on white tails, and this podcast covers I don't

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Speaker 1: know a few different topics, including how he approaches the

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Speaker 1: management of hard science of white tail research while factoring

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Speaker 1: in the social science aspect, which is which is a

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Speaker 1: weird dichomic, which is a weird dichotomy that a lot

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Speaker 1: of state game agencies face. The podcast also covers a

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Speaker 1: lot about c w D. This guy is real knowledgeable

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Speaker 1: about c w D um where it came from, how

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Speaker 1: they found it, where it's going, what the future looks like,

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Speaker 1: pretty in depth stuff. They're not as pessimistic of an

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Speaker 1: outlook as I would have expected, so it's actually pretty

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Speaker 1: interesting to hear how he feels about the future of

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Speaker 1: this might go um. And we also talk about some

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Speaker 1: management practices like Antler point restrictions and how you know

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Speaker 1: they have their place in different parts of the country. Now, overall,

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Speaker 1: such such an interesting guy to talk to. I think

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Speaker 1: you're gonna absolutely love this one. Jason, Welcome to the

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Speaker 1: Wire to Hunt podcast. Yeah, thanks for having me. You

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Speaker 1: come highly recommended from a fellow that I had on

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Speaker 1: Oh gosh, this was months ago now, John McRoberts, who

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Speaker 1: talked all about that wild Missouri buck. You guys had

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Speaker 1: down there that lit out for like a hundred eighty

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Speaker 1: miles and kind of broke, you know, most of the

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Speaker 1: rules we think about for deer and he was that

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Speaker 1: that was a really interesting episode. He's a sharp guy,

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Speaker 1: but he he recommended you. So you you come here

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Speaker 1: with a gold star by your name. Let me put

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Speaker 1: it that way. Well, I pretty shape that. Yeah. John

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Speaker 1: is a great guy and we've had the opportunity to

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Speaker 1: work together quite a bit over the last several years.

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Speaker 1: We we took a turkey biologist and are trying to

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Speaker 1: turn him into a servant biologists. So yeah, yeah, he's

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Speaker 1: he's into birds big time. Yeah, learning the challenges of

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Speaker 1: having to to manage a four legged creator versus a

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Speaker 1: two legged one. That's a different deal. Before before we

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Speaker 1: get into it, why don't you let the listeners know

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Speaker 1: what you do? Yeah. So, um, I'm a science Branch

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Speaker 1: Chief for the Missouri Department of Conservation and that's a

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Speaker 1: fancy title to say that. I lead a team of

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Speaker 1: about eighty five scientists biologists, you know, real researchers um

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Speaker 1: that are focused on gathering the science based information that

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Speaker 1: helps our agency inform um resource management decisions. As well

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Speaker 1: as social um science kind of related issues as well.

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Speaker 1: So we informed policy through through human dimensions work. And

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Speaker 1: that's a that's a big department probably compared to a

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Speaker 1: lot of state game agencies to be you know, dedicated

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Speaker 1: to science around game animals and non game animals too. Right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so agency wide, you know, we've got fourteen hundred full

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Speaker 1: time employees. We have a really large agency, but we do,

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Speaker 1: you know, pretty unique in terms of having UM eight

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Speaker 1: plus folks that really are working on everything from fish

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Speaker 1: and wildlife health related issues to invasive species systems, you know,

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Speaker 1: ecology and management, watershed protection to also our you know,

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Speaker 1: big game UM wildlife species as well as sport fish.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, we spend UM a pretty significant amount of staff,

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Speaker 1: resources and dollars to again just try to provide the

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Speaker 1: information to help make UM as well informed decisions as

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Speaker 1: we possibly can. Well, where does that come from? Down

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Speaker 1: there in Missouri? Where? Where? Where did the emphasis for

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Speaker 1: the science behind all this stuff really really take hold? Like?

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Speaker 1: How how does that happen? It? Really the science based

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Speaker 1: management or informed management really dates itself to the beginning

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Speaker 1: of the agency in ninety six and the first action

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Speaker 1: of the Conservation Commission in fact, was to establish the

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Speaker 1: Cooperative Wildlife Research Unit at the University of Missouri, And

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Speaker 1: so very early on, UM, folks here recognize the need

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Speaker 1: of science. Aldo Leopold was very influential, UM, working with

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Speaker 1: the Sydney Stevens and some of the folks who kind

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Speaker 1: of really helped shape the Missouri model of conservation and

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Speaker 1: its citizens based approach, and and recognize that proactive science

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Speaker 1: and research was was what was gonna need to help

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Speaker 1: guide resource management in the state, across the country quite frankly,

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Speaker 1: and would be a big foundation for helping build public trust. UM,

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Speaker 1: you know, really trying to make it is a transparent

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Speaker 1: as possible how the agency was making decisions and what

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Speaker 1: information they were using to do it. And so it's

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Speaker 1: been a long legacy of the department. Yeah, and we'll

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Speaker 1: get into this a little bit later, because I do

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Speaker 1: want to talk to you more about that. But there's

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Speaker 1: a weird balance there of just hard science based around

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Speaker 1: the resource whatever whatever you're studying white tails on down

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Speaker 1: or whatever, but there's also the social science aspect of

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Speaker 1: what you do because you need the you know, you

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Speaker 1: need guys like me to buy licenses and go help

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Speaker 1: you shoot a you know, your deer every year or

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Speaker 1: whatever whatever the goal is. And so it's it's a

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Speaker 1: weird it's a weird balance to strike. Yeah, no it is,

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Speaker 1: and it's again it's another one of those that the

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Speaker 1: the agency has been very proactive in doing. We we

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Speaker 1: had actually the first social scientists employed by a state

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Speaker 1: fish and wildlife agency was hired by the Missouri Department

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Speaker 1: Conservation in the late nineteen seventies. And so even from

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Speaker 1: that time forward, you look now there's still state agencies

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Speaker 1: are just now adding and growing their social science capacity.

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Speaker 1: So I often say, you know, I managed the dear

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Speaker 1: population is for biologically and socially acceptable levels. I mean,

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Speaker 1: there are many things that as you mentioned, we do

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Speaker 1: this cooperatively with the public and specific segments of our public,

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Speaker 1: and so ensuring they are a critical part of our

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Speaker 1: decision making processes is key to the success of any

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Speaker 1: action we take today. Have you have you worked for

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Speaker 1: other state game agencies? I am not UM. Missouri Partment

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Speaker 1: Conservation the only state fish winelife agency I've worked for UM.

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Speaker 1: I went to grad school in Mississippi, spent some time

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Speaker 1: doing research and in South Texas, so those times I

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Speaker 1: had opportunities to engage with the folks that run those places.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, I've been at Missouri for thirteen years. It

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Speaker 1: seems like that that school downe in Mississippi turns out

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Speaker 1: a lot of dear biologists. It does. Yeah, yeah, I

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Speaker 1: I graduated from University of Missouri and had the opportunity

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Speaker 1: to go to Mississippi and work with Dr Steven Maris

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Speaker 1: and you know, Bronson Strickland and Rainy Deng was there

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Speaker 1: at the time. Um so yeah, some folks who were

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Speaker 1: really moving and shaking the world of deer mamanagement and

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Speaker 1: and and open up you know, my eyes to how

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Speaker 1: things are done in in different places. Are you I

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Speaker 1: know that you have colleagues from different states and are

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Speaker 1: you know, you know, you're plugged into this scene. And

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Speaker 1: it's an interesting it's interesting to hear you talk about

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Speaker 1: the MDC down there having such a focus on this, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, it kind of speaks to where you know,

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Speaker 1: even like you talked about fifty years ago placing the

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Speaker 1: value on hunting and the tradition of hunting fishing game.

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Speaker 1: And I guess what I want to ask you was like,

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Speaker 1: do you talk to people in similar positions in other states,

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Speaker 1: Are they jealous of what you guys have going on?

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Speaker 1: Because I know, I've interviewed a pile of uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: state and federal, you know, employees involved in game management

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Speaker 1: and different capacities, and it almost seemed like some states

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Speaker 1: they're just like struggling to even get noticed at all.

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Speaker 1: And you know, MR's see that seems like a different

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Speaker 1: case down there. Yeah, it definitely is. I mean, there's

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Speaker 1: there's no doubt we because of the sales tax also

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Speaker 1: that went into place in nineteen seventy six. You know,

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Speaker 1: the the citizens of the state of Missouri have been

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Speaker 1: a long term vested party in the work of conservation

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Speaker 1: and how that happened and we can we can speculate

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Speaker 1: all day, but but the founding in the commission was

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Speaker 1: based on initiative petition so y six. It was put

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Speaker 1: to the citizens of the state of Missouri, how did

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Speaker 1: they want their conservation department of function? And and at

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Speaker 1: that time I think the citizens really took real ownership

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Speaker 1: of what conservation would look like moving forward. It wasn't

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Speaker 1: just something put into the executive branch of state government.

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Speaker 1: So from the from the very beginning of Missouri Conservation Federation,

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Speaker 1: stood up led the initiative petition to get the Conservation

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Speaker 1: Department created, and then in nineteen seventy six, after a

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Speaker 1: number of attempts, also led UM a petition to get

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Speaker 1: the one eighth of one percent sales tax put in place.

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Speaker 1: So again the citizens driving UM and saying they value

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Speaker 1: and have strong commitment to the work of conservation. So

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Speaker 1: at that time we got one eighth of one percent

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Speaker 1: UM sales tax generated that goes straight to the Conservation Commission.

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Speaker 1: Another unique thing that many folks don't recognize is that

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Speaker 1: we have a second conservation and State Parks sales tax.

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Speaker 1: We get one tenth of one percent that goes to

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Speaker 1: the Missouri Department of Natural Resources and state Parks, and

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Speaker 1: half of that is also split out to the county

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Speaker 1: soil and water districts, and so you're not only paying

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Speaker 1: the one eighth but also the one tenth. So it's

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Speaker 1: really reflective of again the kind of the citizen led commitment.

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Speaker 1: And so from the very beginning, the department is always

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Speaker 1: in the Commission has always placed great value in that strong,

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Speaker 1: strong relationship with the public. So I think it has

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Speaker 1: built support. Not only is the built capacity through the funding,

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Speaker 1: but it's just built general support report trust. So we're

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Speaker 1: always talking about how do we maintain the trust of

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Speaker 1: the public. And again it gets back to this science

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Speaker 1: based decisions, but then also using social science to inform

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Speaker 1: those as we move forward, so that the decision making

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Speaker 1: process is really open and transparent. Yeah. I mean you

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Speaker 1: you would have a hard time catching me lobbying for

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Speaker 1: lots of extra taxes. But I really love there's there's

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Speaker 1: some success stories in the outdoor industry around like what

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Speaker 1: you're talking about, where it's like this is dedicated funding.

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Speaker 1: It comes from here, it goes to there, and that's it. Now.

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Speaker 1: I just think when you know, when you look at

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Speaker 1: the problems we're facing that some of which you and

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Speaker 1: I'll chat about here, and you know you hear you

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Speaker 1: hear people throw out different solutions. I just look at

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Speaker 1: this and I go, man, I think the way that

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Speaker 1: we save this, at least as long as we can

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Speaker 1: is just through access. And I really wish we could

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Speaker 1: get something going, you know, state, state level. There's you

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Speaker 1: see these walk in programs in different places, and I

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Speaker 1: love them. I would love to see more of that,

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Speaker 1: even even at a federal level. Somehow where some little

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Speaker 1: tiny chunk of some kind of sales tax or something

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Speaker 1: goes into just access. It's just we're gonna we're buying

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Speaker 1: more land open to hunting and fishing. We're buying, we're

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Speaker 1: leasing more from the private landowners to encourage this, and

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Speaker 1: just you know, had your bets against this urban sprawl,

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Speaker 1: keep some places that aren't gonna you know, become mcmansion's,

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Speaker 1: and just keep that going where it's like we've got

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Speaker 1: we've got access. We're always moving towards that target. I

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Speaker 1: would just love to see that. Yeah, I know, you're

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Speaker 1: absolutely right. And there's been some you know, some federal

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Speaker 1: programs that have helped kind of stimulate that. We were

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Speaker 1: kind of late to the party in terms of of

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Speaker 1: leasing lands for the purposes of providing recreation, you know,

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Speaker 1: from private landowners. But most of those things have come

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Speaker 1: in short temper every buckets of dollars from the federal government.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, you don't get that long sustained kind of process.

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Speaker 1: When we got some of those initial funding, then the

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Speaker 1: Commission the Conservation sales tax was allowed us to then

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Speaker 1: continue to support it and move forward. So there is

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Speaker 1: no doubt continued and consistent funding streams is really really

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Speaker 1: critical to the work we're doing. It's also part of

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Speaker 1: why we're working so hard to get recovering America's Wildlife

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Speaker 1: Act through Congress again to support kind of that third

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Speaker 1: leg of fish force and wildlife and then kind of

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Speaker 1: the diverse fish and wildlife species to be another pool

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Speaker 1: of consistent funding that isn't just relying solely on the

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Speaker 1: backs of hunters and anglers through you know, excise tax

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Speaker 1: dollars or license revenue to support the work of conservation. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of ways we could address this, and

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Speaker 1: I know even some of the some of the opportunities

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Speaker 1: that you know, for those private lands open to public

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Speaker 1: that we had before, they're they're not enough anymore. I

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Speaker 1: mean it just as an example where I hunt in

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Speaker 1: northern Wisconsin. Uh, there's a lot of MFL open land.

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Speaker 1: It's a it's a tax incentivized program where if you

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Speaker 1: if you enroll your land, you basically your your tax

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Speaker 1: bills cut down to almost nothing. But it's public and

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Speaker 1: so I mean, you can still use it obviously, but

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Speaker 1: so can everyone else. And man, I'm starting to see

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Speaker 1: at least one or two places that I like to

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Speaker 1: hunt go out of that program. Every year, and you know,

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of reasons. Right when you get a

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Speaker 1: hot real estate market, people are gonna sell, and you know,

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Speaker 1: people want to keep places for themselves, and there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of reasons for it. But you see that and go, man,

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Speaker 1: that worked for a while to keep access out there,

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Speaker 1: but it sort of feels like that one slipping and

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Speaker 1: needs a little bit more love. And I'm sure there's

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Speaker 1: examples of that all over the country where you know,

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Speaker 1: not not just white tail hunters, but all hunters are

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Speaker 1: looking at it going, man, we're losing some stuff that

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Speaker 1: we should we need to have access to. And I

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Speaker 1: hope we really make that front and center as much

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Speaker 1: as possible in the next few years because I think

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Speaker 1: it's really important. Yeah, it's an ongoing challenge, and as

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Speaker 1: you mentioned, the way we hunt has changed, the way

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Speaker 1: we value land and in bringing others along with us,

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Speaker 1: uh to hunt has certainly changed. Specially in the white

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Speaker 1: tail world, is more emphasis on being very selective in

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Speaker 1: harvest decisions and stuff like that. Limited access and it's

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Speaker 1: only gonna get worse, you know. We just continue to

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Speaker 1: see the challenges have a tap fragmentation, urban sprawl, all

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Speaker 1: those things, reducing the acres in which we have opportunity

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Speaker 1: to hunt, and knowing what regulations are and access are

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Speaker 1: d two single biggest barriers that that most folks face

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Speaker 1: when trying to get into the world of hunting. For

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Speaker 1: those of us that grew up doing it, we we

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Speaker 1: trudge away and we we figure it out. Um. But

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Speaker 1: but if it's not if you don't own land or

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Speaker 1: you don't know somebody who has land, especially in the

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Speaker 1: eastern part of the US, and it's certainly here in

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Speaker 1: the heart of the Midwest, having having public land is

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Speaker 1: certainly a challenge as well. Yeah, yeah, it's important. We

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Speaker 1: should we should probably talk about some deer here. What

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Speaker 1: uh what do you guys? Let me ask you this first,

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Speaker 1: what are in your position there at MDC. What are

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Speaker 1: you most concerned with with white tails right now? Well,

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Speaker 1: certainly right now, chronic wasting disease is always at the

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Speaker 1: forefront of the biggest challenge we face in terms of

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Speaker 1: long term management and sustaining deer populations. Um. Yeah, And

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Speaker 1: then the second one would certainly be what do long

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Speaker 1: term hunter numbers look like? As we talk about this

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Speaker 1: access issue. Um, it's not only access for individual hunters

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Speaker 1: to hunt, but it's access to deer populations to manage

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Speaker 1: them through hunting. And we struggle here with with urban

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Speaker 1: deer management issues. We struggle with quite honestly, with the

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Speaker 1: leasing of large chunks of property where you know, the

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Speaker 1: folks leasing it that might have a different object if

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Speaker 1: then than what the landowner leasing it might be. So

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Speaker 1: so again, you know, certainly access and population manage. But

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Speaker 1: but no doubt the emergence of chronic wasting diseases is

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Speaker 1: at the forefront of that. Well, we're gonna talk about

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Speaker 1: that in a second. Well, I want to I want

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Speaker 1: to touch on that what you just said about that,

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Speaker 1: the challenge of managing deer with such diversified interests out there,

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Speaker 1: and you know, you see this, you see this a

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Speaker 1: lot where there there's like a tendency to want to

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Speaker 1: claim ownership over deer if you're if you're running a

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Speaker 1: private place and you've got that lease or you've got

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Speaker 1: your own land and you've got the hit lists and

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Speaker 1: all that stuff, and then you've got you know, maybe

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Speaker 1: you've got somebody like that on a couple hundred acres

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Speaker 1: next to you know, Union Ridge or something like that

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Speaker 1: down there in in Missouri, that's gonna get you know,

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Speaker 1: piss pounded during you know, rifle season in both season.

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Speaker 1: And so you're looking at that, going, well, we've got

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Speaker 1: one landowner or several maybe soaking up a ton of

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Speaker 1: these deer and being very selective. Then we've got another

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Speaker 1: spot where, you know, if it's brown, it's down just

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Speaker 1: because of the sheer numbers of people out there. It's

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Speaker 1: gotta that's gotta be a real challenge to manage white

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Speaker 1: tales with that, with the way things just are. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you look at the natural things that occur, just the

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Speaker 1: arrangement of habitat on the landscape from a county by

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Speaker 1: county basis, but yeah, we we do have just tremendously

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Speaker 1: very hunter density um in counties and no doubt difference

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Speaker 1: in personality and in you know, what the local hunting

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Speaker 1: culture might be and what they desire to have. And

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Speaker 1: so all that does is they add the complexity of

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Speaker 1: regulations makes it harder folks understand how we're going to

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Speaker 1: manage a deer population. And so it is certainly, um

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Speaker 1: without a doubt, probably one of the most challenging species

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Speaker 1: that a state fish wildlife agency has to try to manage.

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Speaker 1: To balance all those varying interest is it. It's gotta

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Speaker 1: be I mean, there's gotta be a positive sight to

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Speaker 1: that though as well, just from the you know, there

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Speaker 1: are a keystones species, right, Like everybody loves white tails.

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Speaker 1: You know, you get into the Midwest, this is what

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Speaker 1: we have and you know alutia, same thing, and so

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Speaker 1: you have that passion around it and that history and

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Speaker 1: tradition and the desire for it. So that's a plus

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Speaker 1: because you you know, if your intentions are good, you

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Speaker 1: can probably get some funding for this, and you know,

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Speaker 1: like people, people want white tails out there. But at

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Speaker 1: the same time, you've got the other end of that

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Speaker 1: spectrum that you're dealing with, and it's it's just got

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Speaker 1: to be difficult, yeah, you know, and this is why

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Speaker 1: I really worry about chronic wasting diseases that you know,

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Speaker 1: folks do value the opportunity to chase them, to know

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Speaker 1: they're there, to have them on the landscape and appreciate them.

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Speaker 1: You know, they produced millions of pounds of food every

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Speaker 1: year for folks to eat, and you know, we talk

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Speaker 1: about food insecurity, things that happen, and so they're just

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Speaker 1: a wide range of the way folks value them. And

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Speaker 1: then there are certainly folks who who they compete with,

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Speaker 1: right you know, road crop farmers and others who are

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Speaker 1: trying to trying to make a living to so that

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Speaker 1: that dichotomy is challenging the kind of long term from

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Speaker 1: a broader conservation perspective, you know, stay fishing wildlife agencies

357
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Speaker 1: oh much of their success of the restoration of white

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Speaker 1: tail deer and turkeys, but the value folks place in

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Speaker 1: recreational lands, the value and the amount of work habitat

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Speaker 1: work that they'll do to manage for white tail deer benefits.

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Speaker 1: A whole wide diversity of species protects our waterways and

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Speaker 1: our watersheds, provides cover for the whole host of ground

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Speaker 1: nesting birds and and and everything else that occurs within

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Speaker 1: the ecosystem. And and so my concern kind of, you know,

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Speaker 1: like microscopically long term with the conservation community is that

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Speaker 1: as chronic wasting disease continues to increase, as folks choose

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Speaker 1: not to hunt in areas where chronic wasting disease is

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Speaker 1: really prevalent, as the potential value of the white tailed

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Speaker 1: deer resource declines, then what happens to much of the

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Speaker 1: rural Midwest where folks have been not pushing out timber

371
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Speaker 1: to grow fish, uewing cows, not you know, doing some

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Speaker 1: of the habitat management things they've been doing to protect

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Speaker 1: and manage for white tailed deer. And so, yeah, no

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Speaker 1: doubt we worry about the loss of this really important resource.

375
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Speaker 1: But to me, it's also kind of the trickle down

376
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Speaker 1: effects of of what comes from that and the benefits

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Speaker 1: that we get from folks managing for deer and turkeys. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: in in reference to CWD, do you think that we

379
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Speaker 1: take by we, I just mean, like the general hunting population,

380
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Speaker 1: we take white tails for granted because most you know,

381
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Speaker 1: I mean, we're aging out, you know, sort of the

382
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Speaker 1: upper echelon of the white tail hunters. You know, the

383
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Speaker 1: boomers are going away kind of just just from their age,

384
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Speaker 1: and so a lot of people who are you know,

385
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Speaker 1: picking up the reins have only ever known pretty good

386
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Speaker 1: deer populations. Like I mean, even even when I started hunting,

387
00:21:57,280 --> 00:22:00,359
Speaker 1: and which you know it was you know, it wasn't

388
00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:04,560
Speaker 1: hey day stuff, but it definitely wasn't like nine seventy, right, Like,

389
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Speaker 1: I've never known a world where you couldn't go out

390
00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:09,719
Speaker 1: and count on white tails to be in the woods

391
00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:13,320
Speaker 1: with you. And I always wonder about that in in

392
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Speaker 1: reference to CWD, like are we just are we taking

393
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Speaker 1: this for granted that they're always going to be there

394
00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:21,080
Speaker 1: and this thing goes this thing breaks bad in a

395
00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:24,280
Speaker 1: real bad way. You know, we might not have any

396
00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:28,000
Speaker 1: choice about this like this it might be too late. Yeah,

397
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Speaker 1: I think you're really right, Tony. You know, in the

398
00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:34,919
Speaker 1: individual conversations you had with folks there, there tends to

399
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Speaker 1: be a greater concern with the older hunting public because

400
00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:42,000
Speaker 1: they do remember the days when when when you when

401
00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:45,600
Speaker 1: you expect you you were excited to see a dear,

402
00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:48,359
Speaker 1: not disappointed when you didn't see a deer, you know,

403
00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:51,680
Speaker 1: And and it's so shifted. When I took over the

404
00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:56,400
Speaker 1: deer program in two thousand eleven UM, the paradigm across

405
00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:58,680
Speaker 1: much of the Midwest was there was no way we

406
00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:01,399
Speaker 1: were ever going to get top of deer populations. They

407
00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:04,360
Speaker 1: were gonna be ever growing. Hunters could never shoot enough

408
00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:06,879
Speaker 1: deer to control population. So yeah, we're living in this

409
00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:10,159
Speaker 1: world of abundance. We had the twelve hym ragic disease

410
00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:13,160
Speaker 1: outbreak and on the tail end of years of shooting

411
00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:15,960
Speaker 1: lots of lots of antalysts deer, and in some places

412
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Speaker 1: deer numbers went down and folks went, whoa, wait, maybe

413
00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:22,080
Speaker 1: we can so we started to shift that paradigm. But

414
00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:25,040
Speaker 1: but they've always been very resilient, right. We just backed

415
00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:27,840
Speaker 1: off the harvest and deer populations come back. And so

416
00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:31,280
Speaker 1: I I do think that we take for granted, you know,

417
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Speaker 1: kind of the resiliency of of this species, and they

418
00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:39,520
Speaker 1: certainly are resilient. Um. But but the long term consequences

419
00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:42,639
Speaker 1: CWD are real. And as much as we would like

420
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Speaker 1: to wish them away, reality is that kills deer, and

421
00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:49,560
Speaker 1: it kills them at much younger ages than they would

422
00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:53,480
Speaker 1: die otherwise. Um. And it's a real it's a real

423
00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:56,320
Speaker 1: challenge and a real challenge because we don't see it

424
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Speaker 1: day to day. We don't see deer find deer in

425
00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:02,439
Speaker 1: a pond er cree did from CWD like we do.

426
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Speaker 1: E h D. It is just a slow trickle. It's

427
00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:08,560
Speaker 1: like a pinhole in your tire. You know. It's not

428
00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:11,239
Speaker 1: like a screw where it just blowing air out and

429
00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:13,639
Speaker 1: you know the problem is there. It's like this this

430
00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:16,280
Speaker 1: small little penel that you can't figure out where it is,

431
00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:18,639
Speaker 1: but you walk outside one day and your tires flat.

432
00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:21,919
Speaker 1: You know, you don't quite understand why. So it's a

433
00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:25,520
Speaker 1: real challenge for perspective to get your arms wrapped around.

434
00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:29,200
Speaker 1: And you guys are pretty heavy into studying a bunch

435
00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:33,800
Speaker 1: of these aspects of CWT right now down there, aren't you. Yeah, Well,

436
00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:36,320
Speaker 1: yeah we are. And I think at this point, you know,

437
00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:40,280
Speaker 1: our biggest focus really is trying to do intensive surveillance

438
00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:43,600
Speaker 1: to inform management, and so we've been doing is intensive

439
00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:47,399
Speaker 1: of CWD sampling, is is anybody in the country UM

440
00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:50,600
Speaker 1: to try to really inform management is be aggressive as

441
00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:53,439
Speaker 1: we can to try to limit the spread of it.

442
00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:58,360
Speaker 1: So we we implemented targeted culling UM in two thousand eleven,

443
00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:01,199
Speaker 1: shortly after we had our first detection in the in

444
00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:04,640
Speaker 1: the free ranging herd, to try to again limit the spread,

445
00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:09,639
Speaker 1: try to limit the distribution UM lengthen the timeline in

446
00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:13,439
Speaker 1: which c w D has an impact on the deer population,

447
00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:16,120
Speaker 1: and I think to this point we've been successful at

448
00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:19,320
Speaker 1: doing that. But our challenge now is that it is

449
00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:22,800
Speaker 1: it is so prevalent in free ranging populations across the

450
00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:27,720
Speaker 1: country UM as well as had been in captive facilities

451
00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:30,639
Speaker 1: that we're getting new introductions of the disease, so we

452
00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:34,760
Speaker 1: have it popping up in new places, and the continued

453
00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:41,080
Speaker 1: spread in that challenge that it poses UM is almost insurmountable. Well,

454
00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:42,800
Speaker 1: what do you say to people, because I know what

455
00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:44,560
Speaker 1: people are listening to this, They're gonna say, well, that's

456
00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:47,040
Speaker 1: you're they're popping up because you're testing. What do you

457
00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:50,160
Speaker 1: say to people when they say that, Well, yeah, that's

458
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:52,360
Speaker 1: not true. You know, it just couldn't be farther from

459
00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:55,800
Speaker 1: the truth. So in two thousand two to two thousand four,

460
00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:59,600
Speaker 1: the state UM tested twenty two thousand deer statewide, and

461
00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:03,560
Speaker 1: so we elected almost two hundred deer from every county

462
00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:06,840
Speaker 1: across the state. And that what that did was that

463
00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:09,360
Speaker 1: told us that if the disease was there in two

464
00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:13,000
Speaker 1: thousand to two thousand four, it was there at very

465
00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:15,879
Speaker 1: low prevalence. So we should have detected it if it

466
00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:19,000
Speaker 1: was at a county scale at like two percent. So

467
00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:21,080
Speaker 1: if we look at some of the most heavily infected

468
00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:25,119
Speaker 1: core areas of Wisconsin, where it's maybe at the county

469
00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:28,000
Speaker 1: level it's ten or fifteen percent, within the buck segment

470
00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:30,720
Speaker 1: it's you know, it's fifty we would have detected those.

471
00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:33,040
Speaker 1: There's just no doubt in my mind we would have

472
00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:36,720
Speaker 1: detected those. And so as we continued, we we we

473
00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:40,320
Speaker 1: continued to sample deer through that time, and our first

474
00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:44,400
Speaker 1: detection of the free range of population was in where

475
00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:48,919
Speaker 1: we had already tested close to seventy thousand deer in

476
00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:51,760
Speaker 1: the state up to that point. So we never stopped testing.

477
00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:55,639
Speaker 1: We've been testing through time. So the other side of

478
00:26:55,680 --> 00:27:00,199
Speaker 1: it is is it follows a very predictable pattern. It

479
00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:04,440
Speaker 1: increases in prevalence and increases in distribution. If we were

480
00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:08,760
Speaker 1: just detecting it because we were doing more testing, we

481
00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:11,840
Speaker 1: would find sort of a stable percentage that the disease

482
00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:14,119
Speaker 1: would be at. We would go test everywhere and we

483
00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:17,080
Speaker 1: would just finally find it. But that just it's just

484
00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:19,879
Speaker 1: not the pattern that it follows. And it's an easy

485
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:23,400
Speaker 1: narrative for those who don't want to believe to just

486
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:28,240
Speaker 1: kind of throw out that um that suggestion and then

487
00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:31,400
Speaker 1: we have to like provide the evidence to refute it, right,

488
00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:34,560
Speaker 1: And so it just doesn't follow the patterns that we see.

489
00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:38,560
Speaker 1: So you guys down there, we're testing for almost a

490
00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:43,160
Speaker 1: decade statewide before you had the first your first positive

491
00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:47,800
Speaker 1: pop Yes, yep, were you were you also testing uh,

492
00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:53,200
Speaker 1: captive servants? Yes, there was testing occurring within captive facilities

493
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:56,040
Speaker 1: as well. Yeah. So our first, our first free ranging

494
00:27:56,040 --> 00:28:00,159
Speaker 1: in our first captive positives both occurred about the same time.

495
00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:02,800
Speaker 1: Our first captive positive occurred in two thousand and ten

496
00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:07,800
Speaker 1: in Lynn County and a hunting preserve um in two thousand.

497
00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:11,080
Speaker 1: Fall two thousand eleven, we detected it in another captive

498
00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:15,280
Speaker 1: facility that was associated with that original one, about about

499
00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:17,960
Speaker 1: ten miles of the crow flies, and then the fall

500
00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:21,680
Speaker 1: of eleven we detected it just right outside of that

501
00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:25,080
Speaker 1: one in the free ranging population in Macon County. And

502
00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:27,760
Speaker 1: so again at that time we went in and we

503
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:30,720
Speaker 1: started doing mandatory sampling in a six county area and

504
00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:35,159
Speaker 1: on opening weekend we started just very intensively sampling and

505
00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:37,359
Speaker 1: you don't find it right, you don't find it, You

506
00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:39,840
Speaker 1: don't find it, and then a couple of years later

507
00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:43,600
Speaker 1: we pick up another spot, so it's it's evidence of introduction.

508
00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:46,240
Speaker 1: And then when we have those spots, we go in

509
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:49,360
Speaker 1: try to do very intensive removals with the cooperation of

510
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:53,600
Speaker 1: landowners to keep prevalence low. And we see different patterns

511
00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:56,280
Speaker 1: based on where we've we've been in the state based

512
00:28:56,280 --> 00:29:00,240
Speaker 1: on participation. Um. But yeah, so we continually, year after

513
00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:03,880
Speaker 1: year after year, are looking at that. One big change

514
00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:06,320
Speaker 1: we made in the mid two thousands was to shift

515
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:10,680
Speaker 1: to testing adult bucks, which increased our likelihood of detection,

516
00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:15,840
Speaker 1: increased the power in which we would detect the disease earlier. Yeah,

517
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:18,920
Speaker 1: so you you might have been skewed a little bit,

518
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:21,920
Speaker 1: you might have been skewed to fewer positives testing the

519
00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:25,280
Speaker 1: general dear population without a focus on mature bucks. But

520
00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:29,280
Speaker 1: it's still would have that still doesn't disprove that that

521
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:32,680
Speaker 1: it just wasn't there and then it showed up and

522
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:37,160
Speaker 1: now it's there, right right. Yeah. Another perfect example is

523
00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:40,280
Speaker 1: you know the border with Arkansas. You know, we we've

524
00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:42,800
Speaker 1: tested along the border of Arkansas for a long time,

525
00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:46,800
Speaker 1: and over the last three years we've detected positives and

526
00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:52,000
Speaker 1: that's because of the spread that is occurring throughout northwestern

527
00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:55,600
Speaker 1: Arkansas and so those animals are starting to enter into Missouri.

528
00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:58,680
Speaker 1: It's not that we hadn't been testing there, it's just

529
00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:02,840
Speaker 1: the diseases now been there. And so as as we look,

530
00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:06,120
Speaker 1: you know, in free arranging white tail populations, all communar

531
00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:10,600
Speaker 1: populations across the West. Hunters are now moving more UM

532
00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:14,920
Speaker 1: infected animals across the landscape, and no doubt, you know,

533
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:19,160
Speaker 1: there's more where the disease exists to make some of

534
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:22,400
Speaker 1: those long distance movements that are introducing the disease to

535
00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:25,800
Speaker 1: new places. And then again, the continued you know movement

536
00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:28,440
Speaker 1: either in the back of tructs will again dead or alive.

537
00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:33,440
Speaker 1: UM just represents an opportunity for the disease to get

538
00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:37,240
Speaker 1: to more places more frequently now than we were we

539
00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:41,280
Speaker 1: were fifteen years you know. Yeah, well, and what's what

540
00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:43,760
Speaker 1: is pretty frustrating about this issue that I'm I'm sure

541
00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:48,120
Speaker 1: you're well aware of, is it's there's always an attempt

542
00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:50,920
Speaker 1: to just boil it down to either it's really not

543
00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:55,440
Speaker 1: an issue, or it's this, you know, this person's fault

544
00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:58,640
Speaker 1: or this segment of the you know, serving industry's fault.

545
00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:02,480
Speaker 1: And you see that game going on, and then you know,

546
00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:05,560
Speaker 1: like that that study that we referenced earlier with about John,

547
00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:07,640
Speaker 1: you know, and the buck that takes a real, real

548
00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:09,680
Speaker 1: long walk, and then you know, if you're in the

549
00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:12,400
Speaker 1: captive servit industry, you can say, well, jeez, the wild

550
00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:14,840
Speaker 1: white tails are walking eighty miles away. Maybe it wasn't

551
00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:17,240
Speaker 1: us moving these year around and it's like, no, do

552
00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:20,600
Speaker 1: you understand it's probably everything, Like you can't just stick

553
00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:22,520
Speaker 1: your hand your head in the sand and be obtuse

554
00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:25,520
Speaker 1: about this and be like, well, couldn't be us. And

555
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:27,200
Speaker 1: when you look at these issues and go, man, this

556
00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:30,160
Speaker 1: is spreading around for a lot of different reasons, and

557
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:33,400
Speaker 1: we're all in the same boat, like this is not

558
00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:35,840
Speaker 1: something where like it doesn't do us any good to

559
00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:39,360
Speaker 1: just fully blame you know, one segment or the other

560
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:43,320
Speaker 1: when this thing is out there doing what it's doing. Though, no,

561
00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:47,080
Speaker 1: I couldn't agree more Tony. You know, early on there

562
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:50,760
Speaker 1: is no doubt that the distribution of the disease was

563
00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:54,040
Speaker 1: being spread by confined servants and and that's that's just

564
00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:56,480
Speaker 1: the reality of how it was getting to some new

565
00:31:56,520 --> 00:32:01,959
Speaker 1: places and new locations. Proving how that happened, and extremely

566
00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:05,400
Speaker 1: challenging because one thing, it's it's a it's a really

567
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:07,880
Speaker 1: hard disease for us to detect, right, I mean, we

568
00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:11,680
Speaker 1: gotta basically sample dead critters, and it's not just as

569
00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:15,080
Speaker 1: simple as getting a little blood onto a tissue or

570
00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:17,440
Speaker 1: something like that and testing it. You know, we've got

571
00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:22,440
Speaker 1: to have lymphatic tissues gotta go to lab. They have

572
00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:24,280
Speaker 1: had to have had it for a while for it

573
00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:26,600
Speaker 1: to detect it. So there's all these things that are

574
00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:31,760
Speaker 1: inherently challenging when when detecting the disease. But you're absolutely

575
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:35,560
Speaker 1: right that as the disease became established in free ranging

576
00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:42,720
Speaker 1: populations and minimal management action was taken, then populate the

577
00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:47,400
Speaker 1: diseases increased in free ranging populations, and so that that

578
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:51,440
Speaker 1: represent an opportunity for more hunters to be unintentionally moving

579
00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:54,120
Speaker 1: the disease around. When they were throwing a deer in

580
00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:57,960
Speaker 1: the back of their truck driving you know, forty minutes

581
00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:01,000
Speaker 1: or four hours home or guard us you know where

582
00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:04,440
Speaker 1: it is, and thinking they weren't doing anything wrong, they

583
00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:06,800
Speaker 1: bone it out, They throw the carcass out back and

584
00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:09,760
Speaker 1: let the eagles and the cows and everything else scavenge on. Hey,

585
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:12,320
Speaker 1: putting it back in nature. We're not doing anything wrong.

586
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:16,720
Speaker 1: And then it's like, oh, whoops, we may have been

587
00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:19,840
Speaker 1: contributing to the spread of this disease across the landscape.

588
00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:22,440
Speaker 1: And and we find ourselves at a point now where

589
00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:26,800
Speaker 1: it matters not how it got there or how it started.

590
00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:31,120
Speaker 1: This is where we are now are we taking a

591
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:35,880
Speaker 1: holistic approach of trying to minimize the risk of continuing

592
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:38,880
Speaker 1: to introduce it to new places and the risk of

593
00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:54,000
Speaker 1: it it expanding where it does exist. Do you do

594
00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:56,560
Speaker 1: you feel sort of a you know, damned if you do,

595
00:33:56,680 --> 00:33:59,920
Speaker 1: damned if you don't situation here, because there's really when

596
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:02,240
Speaker 1: and when you get a new you know, a new

597
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:05,680
Speaker 1: flare up somewhere, or you finally they start popping positive.

598
00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:09,400
Speaker 1: You really only from from your perspective at the state agency,

599
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:12,359
Speaker 1: you really only have two options. Let it go and

600
00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:14,480
Speaker 1: just cross your fingers. I hope you retire before it

601
00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:18,160
Speaker 1: blows up, or you go, we gotta knock this population

602
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:21,719
Speaker 1: down to buy ourselves some time. And that's kind of

603
00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:24,120
Speaker 1: what we have going on. I mean, that's gotta be tough.

604
00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:29,080
Speaker 1: It is, it really is, and I often I greatly appreciate,

605
00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:32,560
Speaker 1: you know, Doug Dern saying we're buying time and paying

606
00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:36,160
Speaker 1: for science, and that's really what we're trying to do

607
00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:41,360
Speaker 1: because it elimination of the disease once it's become established,

608
00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:44,080
Speaker 1: which by the time a lot of the modeling work

609
00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:47,840
Speaker 1: we've done, by the time we detected or able to

610
00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:51,680
Speaker 1: detect it, it's there and the ability to eliminate it

611
00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:55,680
Speaker 1: from the landscape is so hard. But if we can

612
00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:58,399
Speaker 1: detect it really, really early, and that's why I think

613
00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:02,000
Speaker 1: our continued diligence and really intensive testing has allowed us

614
00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:04,400
Speaker 1: and many of these places to detect it very early,

615
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:07,000
Speaker 1: we can go in and do some of these really

616
00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:12,040
Speaker 1: challenging management interventions like tarted cohling asking a landowner if

617
00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:14,000
Speaker 1: we can come on their property and shoot a bunch

618
00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:15,960
Speaker 1: of deer or ask them to shoot a bunch of

619
00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:20,200
Speaker 1: additional deer, we can minimize the impacts to everybody else.

620
00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:22,800
Speaker 1: And if you look at a lot of the survey

621
00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:26,240
Speaker 1: data that's been done, Illinois has done some great survey data.

622
00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:30,160
Speaker 1: They're hunters within the places where CWD is at are like,

623
00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:34,120
Speaker 1: leave us a lung, We don't want to do anything. Well,

624
00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:36,520
Speaker 1: they've already got it, so we understand. But you look

625
00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:39,120
Speaker 1: at the places where they don't have it, and they're like,

626
00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:41,839
Speaker 1: do everything you possibly can to stop it. So you

627
00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:46,240
Speaker 1: even have these two great dichotomies that exist. That creates

628
00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:48,719
Speaker 1: a ton of challenges in terms of what are we

629
00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:51,640
Speaker 1: asking folks to do? And and I've talked to many

630
00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:56,520
Speaker 1: of those landowners. It how hard could it be to

631
00:35:56,640 --> 00:36:00,160
Speaker 1: go through the decision making process. Say I bought this

632
00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:04,439
Speaker 1: property to hunt and manage deer, and you're asking me

633
00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:07,880
Speaker 1: to shoot a bunch of additional ones. You're asking me

634
00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:12,279
Speaker 1: to make my hunting worse to benefit the guys that

635
00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:14,520
Speaker 1: are five or ten or fifteen or twenty miles down

636
00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:18,080
Speaker 1: the road, or for something that may really not have

637
00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:22,719
Speaker 1: impacts for me for the next fifteen years or twenty years. Yeah.

638
00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:24,920
Speaker 1: So that's where it gets back to be real challenging

639
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:28,400
Speaker 1: about the age of our hunters. You've got really old hunters.

640
00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:30,799
Speaker 1: They're like, I'm worried about my hunting for the next

641
00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:34,920
Speaker 1: ten years. Yeah, unless the forward thinking, they're not thinking

642
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:39,920
Speaker 1: the long term. It's hard that that's a that's a

643
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:44,359
Speaker 1: hard one because we we don't think fifteen years down

644
00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:46,280
Speaker 1: the road. We just don't. I mean, you can see

645
00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:49,520
Speaker 1: this in so many aspects of hunting that that get

646
00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:52,839
Speaker 1: pretty frustrating. You can see this in the resident nonresident

647
00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:56,279
Speaker 1: fights out west all the time, where you know, you know,

648
00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:58,080
Speaker 1: there's a lot of non residents out there, and I

649
00:36:58,160 --> 00:36:59,719
Speaker 1: totally get why they would do this, But if they

650
00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:02,239
Speaker 1: could wave of a magic wand they would keep you know,

651
00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:05,840
Speaker 1: the non residents out forever and keep the hunting for themselves.

652
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:09,080
Speaker 1: But long term that's not a great solution for a

653
00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:12,319
Speaker 1: lot of reasons. It would be beneficial to some people. Then,

654
00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:15,200
Speaker 1: you know, like I get that. It's the same thing

655
00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:17,879
Speaker 1: with this, and I think maybe maybe the hardest part

656
00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:20,960
Speaker 1: I'm curious how you feel about this is we can

657
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:24,120
Speaker 1: do all these sacrifices. We could do everything that that

658
00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:27,520
Speaker 1: you know, the MDC asked the hunters in the Minnesota Department.

659
00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:30,400
Speaker 1: You know, like, we could do it all to the

660
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:32,560
Speaker 1: best of our ability right now, and it might not

661
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:38,200
Speaker 1: change the thing. Well, I think it would. I think

662
00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:41,920
Speaker 1: I do. I guess that's the glass half full. You know.

663
00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:48,040
Speaker 1: Mindset is that we've been in north central Missouri doing

664
00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:52,239
Speaker 1: tarted culling on landowners for a decade now, more than

665
00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:56,759
Speaker 1: a decade right today, right so, ten or eleven years

666
00:37:56,760 --> 00:38:00,959
Speaker 1: of remaining tarted culling. They're still deer there, They still

667
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:05,359
Speaker 1: have hunting opportunities. Is the disease spreading, Yeah, yeah, we're

668
00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:10,279
Speaker 1: getting geographic change, it's spreading, but our prevalence is still

669
00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:15,440
Speaker 1: really low. We still have only you know, four and

670
00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:18,680
Speaker 1: a hundred deer that we test are testing positive for

671
00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:21,839
Speaker 1: the disease. So you still have a preponderance of the

672
00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:24,680
Speaker 1: animals that that hunters are harvesting and have the opportunity

673
00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:27,799
Speaker 1: to harvest. We're saying are safe to consume. They can

674
00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:31,000
Speaker 1: still enjoy them. And and and it's been it's been

675
00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:33,880
Speaker 1: a slog, right. We went through the early stages of

676
00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:36,239
Speaker 1: all right, we're on board, we'll do whatever we can.

677
00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:40,239
Speaker 1: Two then I don't want We're tired, we don't want

678
00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:41,920
Speaker 1: to do it anymore. And I would say that was

679
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:47,080
Speaker 1: the mid middle, like five years of doing this too. Now, well, yeah,

680
00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:50,480
Speaker 1: you guys have been whacking deer for a while. We

681
00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:55,399
Speaker 1: still got a few deer, So maybe it isn't as bad.

682
00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:57,839
Speaker 1: Maybe we will go ahead and try to continue to

683
00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:02,120
Speaker 1: sustain that. And so there's there's no doubt that long

684
00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:06,600
Speaker 1: term successes is really really challenging. But there are real

685
00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:09,160
Speaker 1: actions we can do today to try to not make

686
00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:12,560
Speaker 1: the problem words and help again by us a significant

687
00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:15,040
Speaker 1: amount of time, and we got a couple of places

688
00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:19,280
Speaker 1: where it's stayed tight, it's stayed small, and the neighboring

689
00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:22,080
Speaker 1: properties and and you know that that circle around is

690
00:39:22,080 --> 00:39:25,480
Speaker 1: still really small. And so I think there is reason

691
00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:29,439
Speaker 1: for optimism, but it's not easy. Yeah, well, I'm glad

692
00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:33,040
Speaker 1: you brought that up because it's interesting to hear you say.

693
00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:35,120
Speaker 1: You know, if we do this right, we can keep

694
00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:38,319
Speaker 1: that prevalence to around like four percent, which is, you know,

695
00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:41,359
Speaker 1: given the current circumstances, is awesome. We'll take it every time.

696
00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:44,120
Speaker 1: So then let me let me ask you what, like

697
00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:47,320
Speaker 1: what happened in like Iowa County in Wisconsin, and because

698
00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:49,080
Speaker 1: you know, they went hard for a while, but did

699
00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:53,160
Speaker 1: they just stop? I mean, is that? Is that what happened? Yeah?

700
00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:55,919
Speaker 1: So this, you know, the story in Wisconsin is that

701
00:39:56,040 --> 00:39:59,279
Speaker 1: you know, they detected it at a point where I

702
00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:03,920
Speaker 1: would sk mate and I'm not sure that they've probably

703
00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:06,200
Speaker 1: got specific members. They kind of think where it was,

704
00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:09,080
Speaker 1: it probably would have been probably about five percent over

705
00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:14,479
Speaker 1: a pretty large landscape, kind of evenly distributed. But yeah,

706
00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:17,919
Speaker 1: so two thousand four, early two thousands and like two

707
00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:21,359
Speaker 1: thousand and seven, they were very intensively removing deer over

708
00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:23,879
Speaker 1: a pretty large chunk and landscape and you can look

709
00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:27,120
Speaker 1: at their prevalence rates and they were slowly creeping up,

710
00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:30,360
Speaker 1: but not a lot. And then in two thousand seven,

711
00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:34,760
Speaker 1: you know, due to lack of trust just great resistance

712
00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:39,080
Speaker 1: to the management actions. Um, they were the guinea pigs,

713
00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:41,520
Speaker 1: you know, to be quite honest in terms of what

714
00:40:41,520 --> 00:40:43,560
Speaker 1: what do we learn, how do we communicate? What are

715
00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:46,279
Speaker 1: we trying to accomplish? So those of us that came

716
00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:48,799
Speaker 1: after had the benefits of kind of learning from the

717
00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:52,120
Speaker 1: experience of the Wisconsin. But but they stopped, and since

718
00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:55,640
Speaker 1: two thousand and seven it's done nothing but increase exponentially,

719
00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:58,279
Speaker 1: both in prevalence inside of the core areas in the

720
00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:03,400
Speaker 1: geographic distribution where now there's there's you know, a hundred

721
00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:05,600
Speaker 1: and you can look at some of their data and say,

722
00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:09,200
Speaker 1: there's a hundred forty four square mile area, we're literally

723
00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:11,600
Speaker 1: fifty of the adult bucks that they harvest and test

724
00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:15,759
Speaker 1: test positive. So you're flipping a coin as to one

725
00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:19,560
Speaker 1: of the buck you shot. The CDC says you could

726
00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:23,480
Speaker 1: or should consume it, and so man, that that to

727
00:41:23,560 --> 00:41:27,200
Speaker 1: me is is really hard. And so you're seeing ships

728
00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:30,319
Speaker 1: in their behavior. So you're seeing hunters that want to

729
00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:33,920
Speaker 1: have deer to eat, shooting more like young deer and

730
00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:37,480
Speaker 1: not shooting older deer, or avoiding some of those places

731
00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:42,840
Speaker 1: where there's just really high prevalence. UM. So with cooperation,

732
00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:48,040
Speaker 1: we can I think manage prevalence to to some extent

733
00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:52,840
Speaker 1: geographic spread is is just a whole another beast that

734
00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:57,680
Speaker 1: that is really really challenging to manage. Do you do

735
00:41:57,719 --> 00:42:01,200
Speaker 1: you feel when when you talk about you know, the

736
00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:04,040
Speaker 1: difference between what happened in Wisconsin and I mean, obviously

737
00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:06,799
Speaker 1: they were different circumstances, and then what happened with what

738
00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:09,760
Speaker 1: you guys were handling down there in Missouri and actually,

739
00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:12,080
Speaker 1: you know, like your optimism and feeling like you kind

740
00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:13,520
Speaker 1: of got ahold on this thing, like you kind of

741
00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:16,719
Speaker 1: at least gotta a plan that can work. Do you

742
00:42:16,719 --> 00:42:20,040
Speaker 1: feel like there's just, h there's just an optics problem

743
00:42:20,239 --> 00:42:23,120
Speaker 1: a lot of times between state game agencies and the hunters.

744
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:28,240
Speaker 1: I think that could be the case. Yeah, there there's

745
00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:33,080
Speaker 1: certainly an inherent trust that the hunting public or the

746
00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:37,440
Speaker 1: broader public has in the decision making of their state agency.

747
00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:42,600
Speaker 1: The individual decisions state agencies may yeah, folks may or

748
00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:44,200
Speaker 1: may not agree with them, but it's a matter of

749
00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:48,560
Speaker 1: whether they're generally agreeable to the agency or not. I

750
00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:52,000
Speaker 1: firmly believe that, you know, we started this whole discussion

751
00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:54,759
Speaker 1: of what is kind of the broad public trust and

752
00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:58,200
Speaker 1: the state Fish and Wildlife Agency, And I don't think

753
00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:01,440
Speaker 1: there's any doubt that we would not be where we

754
00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:04,160
Speaker 1: are today in terms of being able to manage c

755
00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:09,200
Speaker 1: w D without that broad and real deep public trust

756
00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:14,279
Speaker 1: that doesn't necessarily exist in other places. So that's a

757
00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:19,080
Speaker 1: that's kept things from while at the legislature and other places,

758
00:43:19,160 --> 00:43:24,120
Speaker 1: there has been some noise around our management efforts, it's

759
00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:27,200
Speaker 1: kept the discussions at the local level. And so we've

760
00:43:27,239 --> 00:43:33,000
Speaker 1: tried really hard to be in those local communitunities having

761
00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:37,240
Speaker 1: the conversations with the direct individuals impacted, and not having

762
00:43:37,239 --> 00:43:41,080
Speaker 1: the conversations in jeff City, Right where do the management

763
00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:43,640
Speaker 1: decisions like hit the ground? Where does that matter? And

764
00:43:43,640 --> 00:43:45,280
Speaker 1: you've got to be there, and you've got to be local,

765
00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:48,000
Speaker 1: and you've gotta be engaged. And so some of the

766
00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:51,640
Speaker 1: differences we've seen across the state have been a reflection

767
00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:54,759
Speaker 1: of where we have more staff in the local community,

768
00:43:55,120 --> 00:43:57,960
Speaker 1: we have greater trust in buying in those places, they

769
00:43:57,960 --> 00:44:01,040
Speaker 1: are more heavily engaged. In some of the spots where

770
00:44:01,040 --> 00:44:03,319
Speaker 1: it's popped up where we just don't have as many

771
00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:06,279
Speaker 1: staff assigned there, there just aren't as many of them there.

772
00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:10,200
Speaker 1: The trust and the relationships aren't there, and so we've

773
00:44:10,280 --> 00:44:14,520
Speaker 1: struggled to really kind of gain that kind of foothold

774
00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:17,879
Speaker 1: in terms of management of the disease. But but yeah,

775
00:44:17,920 --> 00:44:21,480
Speaker 1: there is there is no doubt that US as a

776
00:44:21,560 --> 00:44:26,040
Speaker 1: state agency having general broad public support, again may not

777
00:44:26,160 --> 00:44:30,319
Speaker 1: agree on any general decision that we make. But for

778
00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:34,759
Speaker 1: the most part, I think folks understand the Department Conservation

779
00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:38,719
Speaker 1: has the best interests of the resource in mind and

780
00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:41,719
Speaker 1: trying to do it in a way that's so socially

781
00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:45,919
Speaker 1: acceptable um to to get it done, and then very

782
00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:50,080
Speaker 1: proactive in trying to socially engage um with the folks

783
00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:54,520
Speaker 1: that are impacted by the disease. Yeah, what what's happening

784
00:44:54,560 --> 00:44:56,560
Speaker 1: on the science side of things? So, I know, there's

785
00:44:56,600 --> 00:44:59,919
Speaker 1: a lot of research going into the distribution of st

786
00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:04,520
Speaker 1: v D and and how it's getting places, and you

787
00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:08,040
Speaker 1: know what the prevalence levels doing checked versus unchecked. But

788
00:45:08,120 --> 00:45:10,279
Speaker 1: what what else is being done? Is there is there

789
00:45:10,320 --> 00:45:13,920
Speaker 1: any promising science out there, any promising research that like

790
00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:16,759
Speaker 1: gives us hope that maybe we could like actually get

791
00:45:16,760 --> 00:45:20,359
Speaker 1: a handle on this stuff and you know, maybe you know,

792
00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:23,719
Speaker 1: not have it be killing every deer that it infects

793
00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:27,239
Speaker 1: or is there any is there hope on that front somehow? Yeah,

794
00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:30,320
Speaker 1: I think there's lots of hope. Um, there's no doubt

795
00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:33,520
Speaker 1: it's going to take a you know, Nobel Prize winning

796
00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:37,480
Speaker 1: kind of scientific paradigm shift and how we deal with

797
00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:43,040
Speaker 1: prion diseases to really get us over that next step

798
00:45:43,120 --> 00:45:47,360
Speaker 1: to therapeutics or a cure or you know, some inhibitor

799
00:45:47,480 --> 00:45:51,000
Speaker 1: to infection. But there's been great progress over the last

800
00:45:51,080 --> 00:45:54,440
Speaker 1: couple of decades and our better understanding of prion diseases,

801
00:45:54,920 --> 00:45:57,600
Speaker 1: you know, trying to better connect with pre on biologists

802
00:45:57,560 --> 00:46:00,680
Speaker 1: across the country that are dealing with preon and humans

803
00:46:00,719 --> 00:46:05,120
Speaker 1: and other species. Um. We have invested a ton of

804
00:46:05,360 --> 00:46:07,799
Speaker 1: time and energy with with you know John you know

805
00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:10,960
Speaker 1: the group he works with University of Montana in terms

806
00:46:10,960 --> 00:46:15,080
Speaker 1: of trying to do modeling research to understand which segments

807
00:46:15,080 --> 00:46:17,360
Speaker 1: of the population we need to target to kind of

808
00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:21,759
Speaker 1: minimize prevalence and changing geographic distribution, you know, get a

809
00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:25,560
Speaker 1: better handle on what proportion of the population, which particular

810
00:46:25,640 --> 00:46:29,319
Speaker 1: segments of the population and where on the landscape can

811
00:46:29,360 --> 00:46:32,680
Speaker 1: give us the biggest bang for our buck. Um. You know,

812
00:46:32,719 --> 00:46:35,040
Speaker 1: one of the biggest criticisms we all often here is what,

813
00:46:35,160 --> 00:46:37,000
Speaker 1: You're shooting a lot of healthy deer to protect them

814
00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:39,520
Speaker 1: from a disease, you know, And so it's like, well, yeah,

815
00:46:39,600 --> 00:46:41,759
Speaker 1: we understand that, and we need to shoot a lot

816
00:46:41,760 --> 00:46:44,560
Speaker 1: of deer to manage populations, but how can we better

817
00:46:44,640 --> 00:46:48,320
Speaker 1: refine our management actions to to be much more targeted.

818
00:46:49,040 --> 00:46:52,160
Speaker 1: But then we're also forming kind of unique partnerships with

819
00:46:52,280 --> 00:46:55,600
Speaker 1: others outside of our traditional group we would work with.

820
00:46:55,680 --> 00:46:58,040
Speaker 1: We were now working with the School of Engineering in

821
00:46:58,120 --> 00:47:01,520
Speaker 1: the Veternary Diagnostic Lab at you Versity of Missouri to

822
00:47:01,640 --> 00:47:06,040
Speaker 1: implement some really new and innovative you know, nanotechnology and

823
00:47:06,200 --> 00:47:11,399
Speaker 1: engineering kind of challenges to to disease detection. Right, can

824
00:47:11,520 --> 00:47:15,320
Speaker 1: we get to a place where a hunter could um

825
00:47:15,360 --> 00:47:18,719
Speaker 1: collect a bit of blood um and and be able

826
00:47:18,760 --> 00:47:22,920
Speaker 1: to be that earlier, much earlier detection, much easier to do,

827
00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:26,040
Speaker 1: much less costly and time intensive for us to do that.

828
00:47:26,200 --> 00:47:29,320
Speaker 1: So so we've actually been able to use the nanotechnology

829
00:47:29,360 --> 00:47:32,560
Speaker 1: to detect preons into blood. What does that mean We

830
00:47:32,600 --> 00:47:35,800
Speaker 1: don't We don't exactly know yet, but but we're making,

831
00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:39,040
Speaker 1: you know, incremental progress. And there's been a ton of

832
00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:43,520
Speaker 1: work on just preon biology to better understand actually the

833
00:47:43,560 --> 00:47:48,040
Speaker 1: mechanisms in which these things operate UM, and then how

834
00:47:48,120 --> 00:47:51,200
Speaker 1: might we be able to interfere with them or protect

835
00:47:51,320 --> 00:47:55,839
Speaker 1: animals from those um from those infections. So it's it's

836
00:47:55,880 --> 00:47:59,560
Speaker 1: all sort of an emerging thing preons. In terms of

837
00:47:59,560 --> 00:48:03,799
Speaker 1: our under understanding UM from a science community is just

838
00:48:04,080 --> 00:48:08,360
Speaker 1: really really limited. But one of the bright sides of

839
00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:13,240
Speaker 1: CWD is it's gave It's gave pre anologists another model

840
00:48:13,280 --> 00:48:15,800
Speaker 1: to work in, right, they can work in dear because

841
00:48:15,840 --> 00:48:19,120
Speaker 1: they can replicate it many of these struggles they've faced

842
00:48:19,120 --> 00:48:23,160
Speaker 1: with humans. We can't exactly experiment on humans, right, and

843
00:48:23,239 --> 00:48:25,920
Speaker 1: so it is open up the realm for them to

844
00:48:26,000 --> 00:48:29,239
Speaker 1: really start to ask some challenging questions and there and

845
00:48:29,239 --> 00:48:32,200
Speaker 1: there has to be at least a little this is

846
00:48:32,200 --> 00:48:33,640
Speaker 1: a weird one, but there has to be a little

847
00:48:33,640 --> 00:48:36,160
Speaker 1: bit of a benefit for how quickly generations turnover in

848
00:48:36,160 --> 00:48:40,759
Speaker 1: the white tail population to just see, you know, which

849
00:48:40,840 --> 00:48:42,239
Speaker 1: is kind of kind of leads me to what I

850
00:48:42,280 --> 00:48:45,839
Speaker 1: want to ask you that white tails are pretty amazing

851
00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:49,000
Speaker 1: critters as far as adaptability, and I mean, they play,

852
00:48:49,120 --> 00:48:51,239
Speaker 1: they play well with man, they play well out in

853
00:48:51,280 --> 00:48:56,440
Speaker 1: the real wilds. They they they're survivors. Uh do you see,

854
00:48:57,200 --> 00:48:58,520
Speaker 1: is there any reason to have a little bit of

855
00:48:58,560 --> 00:49:01,879
Speaker 1: hope that maybe just through some evolutionary thing, these white

856
00:49:01,920 --> 00:49:04,000
Speaker 1: tales will get this taken care of, or we'll get

857
00:49:04,320 --> 00:49:06,120
Speaker 1: we'll get a certain percentage of them that are just

858
00:49:06,360 --> 00:49:10,560
Speaker 1: not going to be susceptible to these prions. Yeah, I

859
00:49:10,560 --> 00:49:13,880
Speaker 1: think that's I think that's certainly a hope. You know,

860
00:49:13,920 --> 00:49:17,960
Speaker 1: there's lots of genetics work being done, um folks across

861
00:49:18,040 --> 00:49:22,600
Speaker 1: the country, UM looking at you know how or are

862
00:49:22,719 --> 00:49:26,320
Speaker 1: we seeing shifts in particular genes that have been identified

863
00:49:26,560 --> 00:49:30,399
Speaker 1: as as sort of resistant and I hate to use

864
00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:34,560
Speaker 1: that term. We we hear resistant genotypes or there's resistant

865
00:49:34,560 --> 00:49:36,960
Speaker 1: deer out there on the landscape. At this point, we

866
00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:40,000
Speaker 1: still don't know that there's any deer that's completely immune

867
00:49:40,040 --> 00:49:42,759
Speaker 1: to c w D. What we do know is there

868
00:49:42,760 --> 00:49:47,480
Speaker 1: are some particular genetic makeup of deer that kind of

869
00:49:47,520 --> 00:49:51,120
Speaker 1: delay progression of the disease, which, on one end, you

870
00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:54,640
Speaker 1: might think, well, that's good. Their their delaying progression. They're

871
00:49:54,640 --> 00:49:57,680
Speaker 1: gonna live a little longer. Maybe there maybe it's not

872
00:49:57,760 --> 00:50:02,280
Speaker 1: as bad from a distribution of the disease and spreading

873
00:50:02,280 --> 00:50:04,440
Speaker 1: it though, the problem is as they live longer and

874
00:50:04,440 --> 00:50:07,080
Speaker 1: it gives them greater opportunity to spread the disease. So

875
00:50:07,120 --> 00:50:09,839
Speaker 1: there's like this little bit of a tradeoff there, and

876
00:50:09,880 --> 00:50:13,719
Speaker 1: there's some other unknown consequences of some of these deer

877
00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:16,960
Speaker 1: that appear to have some level of resistance to progression

878
00:50:16,960 --> 00:50:19,440
Speaker 1: of the disease. But I don't think there's any doubt

879
00:50:19,560 --> 00:50:23,799
Speaker 1: that animals evolved and have evolved through a number of

880
00:50:24,160 --> 00:50:28,680
Speaker 1: disease bottlenecks and things like that. But those things typically

881
00:50:28,719 --> 00:50:34,200
Speaker 1: occur over thousands or tens of thousands of years, and

882
00:50:34,800 --> 00:50:37,440
Speaker 1: we in our short, you know, kind of time frame

883
00:50:37,560 --> 00:50:40,680
Speaker 1: of looking at things, were like, well that letting it

884
00:50:40,719 --> 00:50:43,600
Speaker 1: go and maybe they'll recover is something that would Yeah,

885
00:50:43,719 --> 00:50:46,000
Speaker 1: maybe they would recover in the length of time it's

886
00:50:46,040 --> 00:50:48,319
Speaker 1: been since we're here now to the time of the

887
00:50:48,440 --> 00:50:50,640
Speaker 1: you know, into the Pleistocene, you know. I mean, it's

888
00:50:51,160 --> 00:50:54,719
Speaker 1: it's like those long term kinds of things. So folks

889
00:50:54,760 --> 00:50:58,319
Speaker 1: are looking at it. But for management of free ranging population,

890
00:50:58,440 --> 00:51:02,920
Speaker 1: it's it's really really challenging to think, um, that that's

891
00:51:02,920 --> 00:51:08,239
Speaker 1: our our only solution or hope. Inside the confined serving industry, absolutely,

892
00:51:08,600 --> 00:51:11,560
Speaker 1: if we can make those animals less susceptible, more resilient,

893
00:51:12,280 --> 00:51:16,680
Speaker 1: UM and make it less risky, you know, moving moving

894
00:51:16,680 --> 00:51:19,960
Speaker 1: those lambs across landscape ensure some of the genetics work

895
00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:24,920
Speaker 1: can can certainly benefit them. Um, yeah, we don't, No,

896
00:51:25,600 --> 00:51:29,640
Speaker 1: we don't know what some of the tradeoffs of the

897
00:51:29,719 --> 00:51:33,719
Speaker 1: disease resistance might be to other characteristics and survivability of

898
00:51:33,719 --> 00:51:36,520
Speaker 1: the deer. Yeah, So they're just just to clear this

899
00:51:36,600 --> 00:51:41,200
Speaker 1: up there. There's evidence out there that some deer with

900
00:51:41,239 --> 00:51:47,640
Speaker 1: certain genetic makeups can survive longer after infection, but there's

901
00:51:47,680 --> 00:51:50,880
Speaker 1: no evidence that there's any natural immunity out there in

902
00:51:50,920 --> 00:51:57,560
Speaker 1: the wild populations, right, correct, Okay, correct, even those that

903
00:51:57,560 --> 00:52:04,000
Speaker 1: that appear to be you know, not nearly as susceptible. Um,

904
00:52:04,120 --> 00:52:07,440
Speaker 1: they've been attempting to do some manipulations and confined facilities

905
00:52:07,440 --> 00:52:09,759
Speaker 1: and stuff like that, but there's still no evidence that

906
00:52:10,880 --> 00:52:13,719
Speaker 1: they won't get the disease or that they're resistant from

907
00:52:13,719 --> 00:52:16,439
Speaker 1: getting the disease. Because that's that's a common thing that's

908
00:52:16,440 --> 00:52:20,320
Speaker 1: brought up, you know, even way back from the discovery

909
00:52:20,320 --> 00:52:22,800
Speaker 1: in Colorado days of like this thing has been around

910
00:52:22,840 --> 00:52:25,360
Speaker 1: forever and some deer get it and some don't, and

911
00:52:25,360 --> 00:52:28,359
Speaker 1: it just you know, find some level of equilibrium out

912
00:52:28,360 --> 00:52:30,560
Speaker 1: there in the population, and none of that's true, right,

913
00:52:31,360 --> 00:52:34,040
Speaker 1: there's no way. The only equilibrium I think it's going

914
00:52:34,080 --> 00:52:36,680
Speaker 1: to find out there in the population is is at

915
00:52:36,719 --> 00:52:39,040
Speaker 1: what point has it infected all the deer that it

916
00:52:39,120 --> 00:52:42,319
Speaker 1: can infect versus kind of the new ones that are

917
00:52:42,320 --> 00:52:45,120
Speaker 1: put out on the landscape. So there is some like

918
00:52:45,239 --> 00:52:47,960
Speaker 1: if you look at the whole deer population as a whole,

919
00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:52,759
Speaker 1: you know, there's probably some fifty to six prevalence that

920
00:52:52,800 --> 00:52:56,280
Speaker 1: we probably can't go above unless they're in a small

921
00:52:56,360 --> 00:53:01,160
Speaker 1: pen where they're absolutely touching one another. But animals are dying,

922
00:53:01,239 --> 00:53:03,839
Speaker 1: animals are getting removed from the population, You got new

923
00:53:03,880 --> 00:53:07,239
Speaker 1: ones being added to the population every year. Is the

924
00:53:07,280 --> 00:53:10,439
Speaker 1: female and their social group actually infected? You know, there's

925
00:53:10,480 --> 00:53:12,680
Speaker 1: there's kind of some of these more complicated things that

926
00:53:12,719 --> 00:53:15,960
Speaker 1: would that would impact that that that top prevalence. But

927
00:53:15,960 --> 00:53:18,719
Speaker 1: but no, I would say, there's no evidence that we've

928
00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:23,680
Speaker 1: we've reached some low levels stable um kind of prevalence

929
00:53:23,680 --> 00:53:26,280
Speaker 1: of the disease that animals are going to continue to persist.

930
00:53:26,760 --> 00:53:30,719
Speaker 1: But you think it's going to lead to population extinctions though, right,

931
00:53:30,840 --> 00:53:33,120
Speaker 1: one big thing that really happened in the late eighties

932
00:53:33,200 --> 00:53:36,000
Speaker 1: and early nineties as folks were modeling this thing out,

933
00:53:36,360 --> 00:53:39,000
Speaker 1: it's uniformly lethal. You know, by two and a half

934
00:53:39,080 --> 00:53:40,560
Speaker 1: or three and a half or four and a half,

935
00:53:40,840 --> 00:53:43,520
Speaker 1: you know, most close to the animals are gonna get in,

936
00:53:43,520 --> 00:53:46,640
Speaker 1: they're gonna die. Lead us some models that predicted extinction,

937
00:53:47,480 --> 00:53:50,520
Speaker 1: right I predicted extinction of the species or locally extinct.

938
00:53:51,840 --> 00:53:55,320
Speaker 1: Back to the resilience of white tails. I don't believe

939
00:53:55,480 --> 00:53:58,200
Speaker 1: that will be the case. I think there's still gonna

940
00:53:58,239 --> 00:54:02,439
Speaker 1: be enough ability for individuals to reproduce in the population,

941
00:54:03,120 --> 00:54:06,600
Speaker 1: to continue to produce fonds that we will have. Dear.

942
00:54:07,800 --> 00:54:10,600
Speaker 1: The question is is whether c w D is going

943
00:54:10,680 --> 00:54:14,040
Speaker 1: to be that governor of the population, which in many

944
00:54:14,040 --> 00:54:17,479
Speaker 1: places it probably will be, that removes hunting from being

945
00:54:17,520 --> 00:54:21,040
Speaker 1: necessary to manage deer populations, that they will just simply

946
00:54:21,080 --> 00:54:25,880
Speaker 1: be regulated by the fact that there's enough cw D

947
00:54:25,960 --> 00:54:29,239
Speaker 1: in the population. It's killing enough old individuals that we

948
00:54:29,360 --> 00:54:32,680
Speaker 1: have no harvestable surplus. That is that if you harvest

949
00:54:32,719 --> 00:54:35,479
Speaker 1: some you just have fewer deer. Yeah, so I think

950
00:54:35,640 --> 00:54:40,200
Speaker 1: that's sort of probably, you know, in in five years

951
00:54:40,239 --> 00:54:42,200
Speaker 1: or whatever, we look out at to what's the white

952
00:54:42,200 --> 00:54:45,480
Speaker 1: tailed population look like, that's where we could find ourselves.

953
00:54:46,280 --> 00:54:48,920
Speaker 1: Do you see in your research have you seen that.

954
00:54:50,239 --> 00:54:52,160
Speaker 1: So when you say, all right, even if you take

955
00:54:52,160 --> 00:54:54,880
Speaker 1: a place that's got a heavy prevalence and they've just

956
00:54:55,000 --> 00:54:58,080
Speaker 1: let it go, just said whatever, we're just gonna we're

957
00:54:58,080 --> 00:55:00,359
Speaker 1: gonna manage white tells like we always did. We're going

958
00:55:00,360 --> 00:55:02,200
Speaker 1: in to knock them down. We're gonna just let this

959
00:55:02,280 --> 00:55:06,800
Speaker 1: thing go. And you see the bucks, you know, mature

960
00:55:06,840 --> 00:55:09,600
Speaker 1: bucks or whatever, and you see, let's say there's a

961
00:55:09,680 --> 00:55:12,319
Speaker 1: forty prevalence right just just for the hell of it

962
00:55:12,640 --> 00:55:17,920
Speaker 1: in the population. Why doesn't it become a hundred or

963
00:55:18,080 --> 00:55:22,439
Speaker 1: or does it when they get to a certain age? Yeah,

964
00:55:22,480 --> 00:55:24,760
Speaker 1: So I think why it doesn't come to a hundred

965
00:55:24,880 --> 00:55:28,920
Speaker 1: is because you have and it may be in that segment,

966
00:55:29,640 --> 00:55:32,400
Speaker 1: you still have to have individual deer transmitting it to

967
00:55:32,440 --> 00:55:37,320
Speaker 1: one another, and you still have to have sufficient or

968
00:55:37,680 --> 00:55:41,759
Speaker 1: sufficient environmental contamination that they're still exposed to the pathogen.

969
00:55:42,800 --> 00:55:45,600
Speaker 1: So as we talk about individual dear behavior, you know

970
00:55:46,920 --> 00:55:49,560
Speaker 1: those you know if you watch deer on trail cameras

971
00:55:49,640 --> 00:55:51,600
Speaker 1: or try to map them out on your property or whatever,

972
00:55:51,640 --> 00:55:53,799
Speaker 1: you know, you got deer that are just like reclusive,

973
00:55:54,200 --> 00:55:57,960
Speaker 1: like they're always by themselves. They're never in a spot

974
00:55:58,000 --> 00:56:00,160
Speaker 1: where everybody else is at and then you got year

975
00:56:00,200 --> 00:56:03,239
Speaker 1: they're everywhere, right, they're always there, they're always interacting with

976
00:56:03,280 --> 00:56:06,120
Speaker 1: other groups. And so those deer that are always interacting

977
00:56:06,120 --> 00:56:09,720
Speaker 1: with other groups individually are more susceptible to contracting the disease.

978
00:56:10,080 --> 00:56:12,839
Speaker 1: That one that's a loner and it's hanging out may

979
00:56:12,880 --> 00:56:16,080
Speaker 1: only be exposed during particular times of the year. So

980
00:56:16,160 --> 00:56:21,520
Speaker 1: there's always gonna be some level of individual behavior or

981
00:56:21,640 --> 00:56:24,959
Speaker 1: just spatial arrangement on landscape of where they're hanging out

982
00:56:25,120 --> 00:56:28,960
Speaker 1: that's gonna make them less susceptible. And then you can

983
00:56:29,040 --> 00:56:32,399
Speaker 1: add some genetic components to it potentially, So that's why

984
00:56:32,560 --> 00:56:34,839
Speaker 1: part of why you won't get to and then you've

985
00:56:34,880 --> 00:56:39,279
Speaker 1: always got you know, maybe up to twenty five or

986
00:56:39,320 --> 00:56:42,799
Speaker 1: thirty percent of your population being added new every year

987
00:56:42,840 --> 00:56:45,359
Speaker 1: in the form of funds, you know, and so you've

988
00:56:45,400 --> 00:56:49,160
Speaker 1: got you've got this new pulse of uninfected naive animals

989
00:56:49,200 --> 00:56:52,160
Speaker 1: every year that occurs that that sort of limits that

990
00:56:52,280 --> 00:56:55,480
Speaker 1: ability to push up to But I would say, yeah,

991
00:56:55,520 --> 00:56:57,879
Speaker 1: in some places, you probably if you just took out

992
00:56:57,920 --> 00:57:00,759
Speaker 1: whatever is left of the adult segment of a three

993
00:57:00,800 --> 00:57:02,640
Speaker 1: and a half and plus yr old segment of of

994
00:57:02,680 --> 00:57:05,759
Speaker 1: a buck population is some really heavy infected areas, I

995
00:57:05,760 --> 00:57:08,400
Speaker 1: would guess your prevalence there is going to be pushing

996
00:57:08,440 --> 00:57:12,799
Speaker 1: towards at seventy plus per cent. And when when you

997
00:57:12,880 --> 00:57:16,000
Speaker 1: talk about you know, those loaner bucks out there who

998
00:57:16,080 --> 00:57:19,440
Speaker 1: don't seem too social and seem to really just be

999
00:57:20,600 --> 00:57:24,240
Speaker 1: hardwired to kind of be loaners for their survival, you know,

1000
00:57:24,520 --> 00:57:26,920
Speaker 1: you want to talk about what what evolution could do

1001
00:57:27,000 --> 00:57:29,400
Speaker 1: for white tails if you gave if those were the

1002
00:57:29,440 --> 00:57:33,640
Speaker 1: primary breeders over you know, the next couple of thousand generations,

1003
00:57:33,640 --> 00:57:36,680
Speaker 1: you might have a lot less social white tail population

1004
00:57:36,760 --> 00:57:39,040
Speaker 1: that would be less likely to pass this thing around

1005
00:57:39,120 --> 00:57:42,360
Speaker 1: and maybe naturally get it into some kind of check

1006
00:57:42,400 --> 00:57:47,720
Speaker 1: a little bit. But we'll be way dead before that happens. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

1007
00:57:47,760 --> 00:57:49,560
Speaker 1: I think these are you know, these are like the

1008
00:57:49,720 --> 00:57:53,000
Speaker 1: evolutionary mechanisms that lead to change. But yeah, that takes

1009
00:57:54,000 --> 00:57:57,600
Speaker 1: it takes hundreds or thousands of generations typically for those

1010
00:57:57,680 --> 00:58:01,680
Speaker 1: kinds of things to happen. But let's talk about something

1011
00:58:03,640 --> 00:58:07,800
Speaker 1: more less less depressing than the future of CWD. UM.

1012
00:58:07,840 --> 00:58:10,680
Speaker 1: I know, I know Missouri has been pretty proactive, at

1013
00:58:10,720 --> 00:58:12,680
Speaker 1: least in parts. I'm not sure if it's the whole

1014
00:58:12,680 --> 00:58:16,400
Speaker 1: state with a PR and some some management which is

1015
00:58:16,480 --> 00:58:19,160
Speaker 1: kind of a you know, kind of on opposite end

1016
00:58:19,160 --> 00:58:21,960
Speaker 1: of the spectrum versus knocking everything down to keep CWD

1017
00:58:22,040 --> 00:58:24,680
Speaker 1: and checking certain hot spots. How do you how do

1018
00:58:24,760 --> 00:58:28,000
Speaker 1: you negotiate or like, how do you navigate that world

1019
00:58:28,040 --> 00:58:29,560
Speaker 1: of being? You know, because I know you're I know

1020
00:58:29,600 --> 00:58:31,520
Speaker 1: you're a hardcore hunter, and I know a lot of

1021
00:58:31,520 --> 00:58:34,000
Speaker 1: the dear biologists and the wildlife biologists I interview are

1022
00:58:35,160 --> 00:58:37,600
Speaker 1: and so you've got this world of like, you know,

1023
00:58:37,760 --> 00:58:41,400
Speaker 1: we're gonna we're gonna address this disease issue in a

1024
00:58:41,440 --> 00:58:44,200
Speaker 1: way that's not gonna look great to hunters because we're

1025
00:58:44,200 --> 00:58:47,200
Speaker 1: taking we're taking white house off the landscape, like you said,

1026
00:58:47,240 --> 00:58:49,520
Speaker 1: healthy ones, so they don't get six, they don't spread it.

1027
00:58:49,920 --> 00:58:51,760
Speaker 1: And then on the other end, you've got you know,

1028
00:58:51,840 --> 00:58:53,880
Speaker 1: we'd like we'd like you to shoot bucks with four

1029
00:58:53,920 --> 00:58:56,360
Speaker 1: points on a side, or you know, a minimum inside

1030
00:58:56,400 --> 00:59:00,720
Speaker 1: spread or something like that too. Just increase the the

1031
00:59:00,840 --> 00:59:02,920
Speaker 1: experience to a lot. I mean, it does have some

1032
00:59:03,080 --> 00:59:05,160
Speaker 1: I believe anyway, the APR and some of the management

1033
00:59:05,200 --> 00:59:07,960
Speaker 1: stuff has some positive biological effects as far as age

1034
00:59:08,000 --> 00:59:09,920
Speaker 1: structure and stuff like that, but it's also just mostly

1035
00:59:10,000 --> 00:59:12,760
Speaker 1: viewed as a social thing to like we're gonna let

1036
00:59:12,760 --> 00:59:15,200
Speaker 1: them bucks grow up, like we're gonna put a value

1037
00:59:15,200 --> 00:59:19,200
Speaker 1: on them. How how do you navigate that kind of dichotomy? Well,

1038
00:59:19,280 --> 00:59:23,240
Speaker 1: I would say first, one of the big reasons there

1039
00:59:23,280 --> 00:59:25,600
Speaker 1: were two reasons we went to the Antler Point restriction

1040
00:59:25,840 --> 00:59:29,640
Speaker 1: and started it in two thousand four. One was like,

1041
00:59:29,680 --> 00:59:33,000
Speaker 1: we talked a little bit ago ever expanding exponentially growing

1042
00:59:33,040 --> 00:59:37,560
Speaker 1: dear populations and and a hunting public that really shot

1043
00:59:37,640 --> 00:59:42,480
Speaker 1: whatever first legal deer came by, and so could we

1044
00:59:42,560 --> 00:59:46,360
Speaker 1: by implementing a restriction on bucks, get folks to shoot

1045
00:59:46,400 --> 00:59:51,200
Speaker 1: more analysts deer. So that was a big reason why

1046
00:59:51,320 --> 00:59:56,280
Speaker 1: we started down the path. Also knowing a a big

1047
00:59:56,320 --> 01:00:01,360
Speaker 1: benefit of it would be you're letting young bucks pass

1048
01:00:01,400 --> 01:00:05,439
Speaker 1: and age on into another age class, which they then

1049
01:00:05,560 --> 01:00:09,040
Speaker 1: become more challenging to hunt. And despite the fact we

1050
01:00:09,080 --> 01:00:11,040
Speaker 1: put a little more, you know, still put pretty high

1051
01:00:11,120 --> 01:00:13,040
Speaker 1: pressure on them. By the time they get to those

1052
01:00:13,040 --> 01:00:15,960
Speaker 1: older ages, they're more challenging to kill. Even if there

1053
01:00:16,000 --> 01:00:18,240
Speaker 1: are more of them out there, you get to kill

1054
01:00:18,280 --> 01:00:19,680
Speaker 1: more of them because they're more of them out there,

1055
01:00:19,680 --> 01:00:23,520
Speaker 1: but they're still equally as challenging. So really, for us

1056
01:00:23,520 --> 01:00:27,280
Speaker 1: in many places, the evaluation was on what did it

1057
01:00:27,400 --> 01:00:31,160
Speaker 1: do to antle as harvest, how would that impact it?

1058
01:00:31,520 --> 01:00:35,440
Speaker 1: And we we've seen some real differences based on hunter density.

1059
01:00:35,480 --> 01:00:38,440
Speaker 1: We talked about some of the challenges accounting by counting management,

1060
01:00:38,480 --> 01:00:41,080
Speaker 1: and some places where you got real high hunter density

1061
01:00:41,200 --> 01:00:43,960
Speaker 1: went where you don't. In places where we have high

1062
01:00:44,040 --> 01:00:47,760
Speaker 1: hunter density, the antler point restriction really does have a

1063
01:00:47,920 --> 01:00:52,360
Speaker 1: huge impact on the growth rate of the population because

1064
01:00:52,400 --> 01:00:55,200
Speaker 1: that opportunity shoot first legal deer, they were then shooting

1065
01:00:55,280 --> 01:00:58,280
Speaker 1: dose And in a couple of places we actually remove

1066
01:00:58,360 --> 01:01:01,120
Speaker 1: the antler point restriction because we were killing too many

1067
01:01:01,200 --> 01:01:04,640
Speaker 1: dose because of it. You could see the clear shift

1068
01:01:05,080 --> 01:01:07,720
Speaker 1: in other places where we had kind of moderate dear densities.

1069
01:01:07,720 --> 01:01:11,200
Speaker 1: That certainly helped dampen things down and help facilitate this

1070
01:01:11,280 --> 01:01:16,440
Speaker 1: conversation of managing the population as it relates to disease management.

1071
01:01:16,560 --> 01:01:20,880
Speaker 1: The way that I've always communicated it is that we're

1072
01:01:20,880 --> 01:01:23,560
Speaker 1: doing everything we can to try to detect the disease

1073
01:01:23,600 --> 01:01:28,760
Speaker 1: in white tailed populations across the state, and it's not there,

1074
01:01:29,720 --> 01:01:32,040
Speaker 1: or if it's there where we have the APR, it's

1075
01:01:32,080 --> 01:01:35,080
Speaker 1: at a very very low prevalence, and so our management

1076
01:01:35,680 --> 01:01:40,160
Speaker 1: for these quality populations that that that a growing segment

1077
01:01:40,200 --> 01:01:43,080
Speaker 1: of our hunting public desires to have, and the cain

1078
01:01:43,080 --> 01:01:47,000
Speaker 1: interaction that occurs with a buck segment of population that's older.

1079
01:01:47,760 --> 01:01:51,800
Speaker 1: You know, no doubt kind of the more natural breeding

1080
01:01:51,880 --> 01:01:55,960
Speaker 1: systems that would have occurred is a good management strategy.

1081
01:01:56,080 --> 01:01:59,760
Speaker 1: There's nothing wrong with it. How do we just make

1082
01:01:59,800 --> 01:02:04,120
Speaker 1: sure are and effectively communicated? WD is not everywhere and

1083
01:02:04,160 --> 01:02:07,760
Speaker 1: it's only gonna get there by us introducing it. The

1084
01:02:07,800 --> 01:02:10,800
Speaker 1: flip side of that that we've been having a conversation

1085
01:02:11,040 --> 01:02:15,240
Speaker 1: now is as as we look at our populations, as

1086
01:02:15,240 --> 01:02:20,200
Speaker 1: we better understand the dynamic of the disease, how do

1087
01:02:20,400 --> 01:02:24,919
Speaker 1: those management strategies make our populations more or less resilient

1088
01:02:25,520 --> 01:02:30,040
Speaker 1: when CWT gets there? So I think, and and that's

1089
01:02:30,040 --> 01:02:33,280
Speaker 1: some modeling work we've we've really started to initiate what's

1090
01:02:33,320 --> 01:02:36,680
Speaker 1: the you know, what's the likelihood how fast might it

1091
01:02:36,840 --> 01:02:40,640
Speaker 1: spread if that introduction occurs? And and so I think

1092
01:02:40,680 --> 01:02:42,840
Speaker 1: that's where a little bit of the push and pull happens.

1093
01:02:42,880 --> 01:02:46,320
Speaker 1: But but I've been pretty staunched that that the a

1094
01:02:46,400 --> 01:02:50,080
Speaker 1: PR is a good rule. It's very popular, it has

1095
01:02:50,160 --> 01:02:53,000
Speaker 1: its place, It does not have a place with disease

1096
01:02:53,040 --> 01:02:56,880
Speaker 1: management if the disease is present. But if it's not present,

1097
01:02:58,040 --> 01:03:02,000
Speaker 1: let's let's keep doing good your management, keep testing and

1098
01:03:02,040 --> 01:03:05,600
Speaker 1: trying to detect it. But but it's a good regulation. Yeah,

1099
01:03:05,600 --> 01:03:09,080
Speaker 1: And that I think that that's so refreshing to hear

1100
01:03:09,160 --> 01:03:12,720
Speaker 1: because you know, like I said earlier, it's it's really

1101
01:03:12,720 --> 01:03:15,160
Speaker 1: easy to sort of boil this stuff down and you know,

1102
01:03:15,240 --> 01:03:18,680
Speaker 1: four against or whatever. But when you look at something

1103
01:03:18,720 --> 01:03:22,880
Speaker 1: like a PRS, when you take Antler point restrictions, and

1104
01:03:23,080 --> 01:03:25,400
Speaker 1: from my perspective as a hunter, I hear you say that,

1105
01:03:25,640 --> 01:03:28,440
Speaker 1: and I'm like, hell, yes, I have no problem with

1106
01:03:29,160 --> 01:03:30,880
Speaker 1: you know, getting rid of a little bit of its

1107
01:03:30,880 --> 01:03:35,320
Speaker 1: brown it's down and having some better age class here,

1108
01:03:35,440 --> 01:03:39,520
Speaker 1: especially if you have legitimate options to kill Antler this dear,

1109
01:03:39,840 --> 01:03:41,320
Speaker 1: and on your side of things, you're like, hey, we

1110
01:03:41,360 --> 01:03:43,240
Speaker 1: want to we want to knock back this population a

1111
01:03:43,240 --> 01:03:45,720
Speaker 1: little bit, balance it out better, and you know, keep

1112
01:03:45,720 --> 01:03:47,520
Speaker 1: the hunters at because they're still gonna be c indeed,

1113
01:03:47,560 --> 01:03:49,680
Speaker 1: they're still gonna have their their venison, they're still gonna

1114
01:03:49,720 --> 01:03:51,320
Speaker 1: have a better chance at killing a big buck, and

1115
01:03:51,360 --> 01:03:53,560
Speaker 1: it sort of feels like a win win, And then

1116
01:03:53,560 --> 01:03:55,720
Speaker 1: you go, well, as long as we don't get popped

1117
01:03:55,720 --> 01:03:59,240
Speaker 1: for CWD here, and then all bets are off because

1118
01:03:59,280 --> 01:04:01,800
Speaker 1: now you know, we don't want a bunch of old

1119
01:04:01,840 --> 01:04:06,720
Speaker 1: age males in this population. And it really kind of

1120
01:04:06,800 --> 01:04:11,240
Speaker 1: highlights how difficult this kind of push pull is with

1121
01:04:11,480 --> 01:04:14,880
Speaker 1: you know, the perspective of somebody tasked with managing a

1122
01:04:14,920 --> 01:04:19,200
Speaker 1: wild game population versus the desires of the average hunter.

1123
01:04:19,840 --> 01:04:22,600
Speaker 1: There's so much going on there, and it's so not

1124
01:04:22,920 --> 01:04:28,439
Speaker 1: a simple thing. Yeah, it is a huge, complex set

1125
01:04:28,480 --> 01:04:31,720
Speaker 1: of interacting variables, you know, and and and the other

1126
01:04:31,800 --> 01:04:36,120
Speaker 1: side of it is there's not there's not one perfect

1127
01:04:36,520 --> 01:04:40,720
Speaker 1: solution to that. We could do it any number combination

1128
01:04:40,760 --> 01:04:44,720
Speaker 1: of ways. And that's why I think we see state

1129
01:04:44,880 --> 01:04:49,680
Speaker 1: to state differences right that Culturally, you know, we've we've

1130
01:04:49,840 --> 01:04:52,720
Speaker 1: established cultural norms as to the way that we want

1131
01:04:52,880 --> 01:04:55,640
Speaker 1: or like to hunt deer. And so how do you

1132
01:04:55,720 --> 01:04:59,840
Speaker 1: then shift these tools around to say, Okay, well, here's

1133
01:05:00,560 --> 01:05:03,360
Speaker 1: the suite that we think will kind of hit that

1134
01:05:03,360 --> 01:05:07,400
Speaker 1: that sweet spot kind of satisfy our population because we

1135
01:05:07,400 --> 01:05:10,560
Speaker 1: can do we you know, I last one to say

1136
01:05:10,560 --> 01:05:13,640
Speaker 1: that we have the perfect model in terms of deer management,

1137
01:05:13,640 --> 01:05:16,960
Speaker 1: and it's since it's just a series of trade offs

1138
01:05:17,000 --> 01:05:19,760
Speaker 1: and and so as we have, as we have built

1139
01:05:19,840 --> 01:05:22,400
Speaker 1: changes into this, I think we have tried really hard

1140
01:05:22,480 --> 01:05:25,040
Speaker 1: to do it with the public. We talk about the

1141
01:05:25,080 --> 01:05:28,280
Speaker 1: public Outreach and Engagement UM In two thousand and fourteen,

1142
01:05:28,320 --> 01:05:31,600
Speaker 1: two thousand fifteen, sort of as CWD was emerging, we

1143
01:05:31,600 --> 01:05:33,320
Speaker 1: were in the midst of some of these population to

1144
01:05:33,440 --> 01:05:38,680
Speaker 1: clients resulting from the twelve and RAGI disease outbreak, strong

1145
01:05:38,800 --> 01:05:42,640
Speaker 1: shift towards antle as harvest, increasing hunter numbers actually in

1146
01:05:42,680 --> 01:05:45,400
Speaker 1: the state for one of the few UM. It's been

1147
01:05:45,440 --> 01:05:48,160
Speaker 1: on the downward trend since then. But all these challenges,

1148
01:05:48,560 --> 01:05:53,560
Speaker 1: we actually entered into eight or twenty two public meetings

1149
01:05:53,760 --> 01:05:56,919
Speaker 1: in about an eighteen month period to revamp our deer

1150
01:05:56,960 --> 01:05:59,280
Speaker 1: management plan to say what are we gonna do, how

1151
01:05:59,320 --> 01:06:02,120
Speaker 1: are we gonna make anage the disease, and how do

1152
01:06:02,200 --> 01:06:04,240
Speaker 1: we want to manage the white tail population as we

1153
01:06:04,320 --> 01:06:07,160
Speaker 1: move forward. So it's just a it's just a it's

1154
01:06:07,520 --> 01:06:13,600
Speaker 1: so critical that we continue to have that agency, hunting, public,

1155
01:06:14,200 --> 01:06:18,720
Speaker 1: other affected stakeholder dialogue on an ongoing basis to figure

1156
01:06:18,760 --> 01:06:23,200
Speaker 1: out where we as a state, I think we want

1157
01:06:23,240 --> 01:06:26,560
Speaker 1: to try to push the dear population. Yeah, there's a

1158
01:06:26,600 --> 01:06:28,720
Speaker 1: lot going on there. I got I got two questions

1159
01:06:28,760 --> 01:06:31,360
Speaker 1: for you to wrap this sucker up. The first one

1160
01:06:31,440 --> 01:06:33,880
Speaker 1: is do you think we should arrange a cage match

1161
01:06:34,360 --> 01:06:37,320
Speaker 1: between Doug during and Ted Nugets so they can fight

1162
01:06:38,120 --> 01:06:41,080
Speaker 1: over this issue? And I mean I don't mean a debate,

1163
01:06:41,120 --> 01:06:45,560
Speaker 1: I mean a real fight. Yeah, Oh damn. It's it's hard,

1164
01:06:45,640 --> 01:06:47,560
Speaker 1: you know, And I've been in the middle of those,

1165
01:06:48,560 --> 01:06:52,520
Speaker 1: and it is It's just I just wish we could,

1166
01:06:52,680 --> 01:06:57,240
Speaker 1: you know, find some common ground and and and get

1167
01:06:57,320 --> 01:07:00,200
Speaker 1: back to you know what, what do we know and

1168
01:07:00,240 --> 01:07:03,680
Speaker 1: what do we not know? And just be honest about

1169
01:07:03,680 --> 01:07:07,920
Speaker 1: the dialogue. But unfortunately, when you deal with the public,

1170
01:07:08,440 --> 01:07:13,000
Speaker 1: you deal with the values, the beliefs and everything that

1171
01:07:13,040 --> 01:07:17,320
Speaker 1: comes along with those individuals, and and inherent mistrusted government

1172
01:07:17,320 --> 01:07:20,840
Speaker 1: as part of that, the mistrust of science, the actions

1173
01:07:20,880 --> 01:07:23,920
Speaker 1: of government and of science that have contributed to that.

1174
01:07:24,040 --> 01:07:27,200
Speaker 1: You know, it's it's a it's a tangled web. But

1175
01:07:27,360 --> 01:07:31,840
Speaker 1: I greatly appreciate Doug and his perspectives, have had the

1176
01:07:31,920 --> 01:07:34,680
Speaker 1: chance to to speak with him, you know what if

1177
01:07:34,800 --> 01:07:38,520
Speaker 1: a few engagements over time, and just really greatly appreciate

1178
01:07:38,600 --> 01:07:42,680
Speaker 1: his perspective. Yeah, all right, last one, are you can

1179
01:07:42,760 --> 01:07:44,360
Speaker 1: you can you make a phone call down there at

1180
01:07:44,440 --> 01:07:47,160
Speaker 1: MDC and and make it so we can hunt turkeys

1181
01:07:47,160 --> 01:07:51,440
Speaker 1: all day. I would sure like to be able to

1182
01:07:51,480 --> 01:07:56,200
Speaker 1: do that. Um. We've had ongoing discussion of that for

1183
01:07:56,240 --> 01:08:00,360
Speaker 1: a long long time, and it really is a we're

1184
01:08:00,400 --> 01:08:04,360
Speaker 1: missing opportunity by not having all day tay hunting. You know,

1185
01:08:04,400 --> 01:08:09,000
Speaker 1: our research and stuff would certainly suggest um that we're

1186
01:08:09,040 --> 01:08:12,000
Speaker 1: not over harvesting our gobblers, Um, that we still have

1187
01:08:12,120 --> 01:08:17,120
Speaker 1: great opportunities, especially now as I have a son you know,

1188
01:08:17,240 --> 01:08:20,479
Speaker 1: who's whose seven and we only have the mornings during

1189
01:08:20,479 --> 01:08:23,400
Speaker 1: the regular season, and the loss of some of those

1190
01:08:23,400 --> 01:08:26,760
Speaker 1: opportunities to get him out in the field. You know it,

1191
01:08:26,520 --> 01:08:30,080
Speaker 1: It certainly is is an opportunity that we're missing. You know.

1192
01:08:30,120 --> 01:08:32,760
Speaker 1: The flip side of it is is we've got production

1193
01:08:32,880 --> 01:08:37,760
Speaker 1: problems and and when you talk about increasing opportunity to

1194
01:08:37,800 --> 01:08:42,599
Speaker 1: harvest a species, um, ball of species isn't necessarily doing

1195
01:08:42,640 --> 01:08:46,200
Speaker 1: as well as it had been. It's hard again to

1196
01:08:46,280 --> 01:08:48,599
Speaker 1: get over those humps of well, at least we could

1197
01:08:48,600 --> 01:08:50,559
Speaker 1: just do something, if we could save one more hen,

1198
01:08:50,800 --> 01:08:53,920
Speaker 1: if we could say, one more gobbler, at least we're

1199
01:08:53,960 --> 01:08:58,000
Speaker 1: doing something. And so it becomes a really really challenging

1200
01:08:58,080 --> 01:09:03,120
Speaker 1: thing just to do um socially, even though biologically UM

1201
01:09:03,240 --> 01:09:08,120
Speaker 1: it would be or or at least our evidence suggests

1202
01:09:08,160 --> 01:09:11,360
Speaker 1: it would not have a significant negative impact on the population.

1203
01:09:11,439 --> 01:09:14,200
Speaker 1: But I just hope we can figure out something that's

1204
01:09:14,200 --> 01:09:17,880
Speaker 1: going to help with production. Yeah, that's that's a whole

1205
01:09:18,000 --> 01:09:21,559
Speaker 1: other issue, a whole another issue with the turkeys. I'm

1206
01:09:21,600 --> 01:09:24,080
Speaker 1: just saying, you guys would definitely sell me a nonresident

1207
01:09:24,120 --> 01:09:28,000
Speaker 1: turkey tag every year if you let me hunt all day. Yeah. Yeah,

1208
01:09:28,080 --> 01:09:30,760
Speaker 1: it definitely has an impact. You know, early on when

1209
01:09:30,840 --> 01:09:34,040
Speaker 1: turkey it was really really good, non resident could bump in,

1210
01:09:34,200 --> 01:09:37,120
Speaker 1: shoot bird be gone, or you know, show up at

1211
01:09:37,160 --> 01:09:39,040
Speaker 1: the tail end of the first week and shoot one

1212
01:09:39,080 --> 01:09:41,160
Speaker 1: bird and then catch the second bird of the first

1213
01:09:41,160 --> 01:09:43,519
Speaker 1: part of the second week and and go on. You know,

1214
01:09:43,560 --> 01:09:46,880
Speaker 1: I don't I don't doubt that um A half day

1215
01:09:46,920 --> 01:09:50,360
Speaker 1: hunting has has had an impact on nonresident participation in

1216
01:09:50,400 --> 01:09:52,920
Speaker 1: the state. Yeah, but it has on me. I love,

1217
01:09:52,960 --> 01:09:54,640
Speaker 1: I love turkey hunting down there, but I have a

1218
01:09:54,640 --> 01:09:57,439
Speaker 1: hard time, you know, calling it at one o'clock and

1219
01:09:57,479 --> 01:10:00,000
Speaker 1: then you're just sitting in your tent picking ticks off yourself.

1220
01:10:00,040 --> 01:10:02,360
Speaker 1: Way way to go try to roost one or something.

1221
01:10:02,400 --> 01:10:06,200
Speaker 1: You know, it's tough anyway, Jason, this has been really fun. Man.

1222
01:10:06,200 --> 01:10:07,960
Speaker 1: I'm so glad you took the time to come on

1223
01:10:08,080 --> 01:10:10,720
Speaker 1: here and uh and and speak with me. So I

1224
01:10:10,760 --> 01:10:14,320
Speaker 1: really appreciate it. Man. Well, I appreciate the opportunity and

1225
01:10:14,160 --> 01:10:16,759
Speaker 1: I never turned down the chance to talk to folks

1226
01:10:16,760 --> 01:10:19,720
Speaker 1: who have an audience who again we can break down

1227
01:10:19,760 --> 01:10:23,240
Speaker 1: those barriers, start to develop relationships with people to understand

1228
01:10:23,880 --> 01:10:27,080
Speaker 1: how and why and the thought processes beside behind those

1229
01:10:27,120 --> 01:10:29,320
Speaker 1: of us who are making management decisions state fish and

1230
01:10:29,320 --> 01:10:33,960
Speaker 1: wildlife agencies. And so I just appreciate you and everyone

1231
01:10:34,000 --> 01:10:36,759
Speaker 1: else who who opens up the opportunity for us to

1232
01:10:36,760 --> 01:10:38,679
Speaker 1: to speak to an audience in a in a different

1233
01:10:38,680 --> 01:10:41,599
Speaker 1: way and in a less controversial way. We're not arguing

1234
01:10:41,640 --> 01:10:45,320
Speaker 1: specifically about a particular regulation or something like that, and

1235
01:10:45,320 --> 01:10:47,720
Speaker 1: and just share thoughts and ideas and the kinds of

1236
01:10:47,760 --> 01:10:50,200
Speaker 1: things we're thinking about that we just don't get to

1237
01:10:50,240 --> 01:10:53,000
Speaker 1: do in a lot of other formats. So I appreciate

1238
01:10:53,040 --> 01:10:56,360
Speaker 1: everything you guys do to continue to the hard work

1239
01:10:56,400 --> 01:10:59,759
Speaker 1: of all of us doing the right thing for conservation. Awesome,

1240
01:10:59,760 --> 01:11:02,880
Speaker 1: thank man. All Right, that's it for this week, folks.

1241
01:11:02,960 --> 01:11:05,040
Speaker 1: Be sure to tune in next week for more white

1242
01:11:05,040 --> 01:11:07,920
Speaker 1: tailed goodness. This has been the Wired to Hunt podcast

1243
01:11:08,000 --> 01:11:10,599
Speaker 1: and I'm your guest host, Tony Peterson. As I always,

1244
01:11:10,600 --> 01:11:12,759
Speaker 1: thank you so much for listening and for your support.

1245
01:11:13,040 --> 01:11:15,240
Speaker 1: And if you're looking for more white tail content, be

1246
01:11:15,320 --> 01:11:17,599
Speaker 1: sure to head on over to the meat eater dot

1247
01:11:17,640 --> 01:11:20,920
Speaker 1: com slash wired to see a pile of new articles

1248
01:11:20,920 --> 01:11:23,519
Speaker 1: each week by Mark myself and a whole bunch of

1249
01:11:23,520 --> 01:11:26,559
Speaker 1: white tail addicts. Or head on over to our Weird

1250
01:11:26,680 --> 01:11:29,600
Speaker 1: Hunt YouTube channel and you'll see the weekly how to

1251
01:11:29,840 --> 01:11:31,280
Speaker 1: videos that Mark and I dropped