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Speaker 1: So let's sign our attention then to the European Union

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Speaker 1: reaching an agreement on and overhaul of its rules for

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Speaker 1: tackling immigration crises, as it seeks to streamline asylum procedures

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Speaker 1: and also boost return of people who failed to obtain

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Speaker 1: the right to stay in the bloc. We've seen this

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Speaker 1: on an individual level from countries including Italy and others.

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Speaker 1: The agreement comes as the region finds itself at the

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Speaker 1: center of a raft of diplomatic challenges. We've mentioned the

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Speaker 1: war in Ukraine, Gaza, trade tensions with China, and also

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Speaker 1: the US joining US now to discuss all of this.

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Speaker 1: Baroness Catherine Ashton a labor life peer. She was the

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Speaker 1: European Union's first High Representative for Foreign Affairs and Security policy,

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Speaker 1: also the first female EU Commissioner for Trade a war.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to radio. Thank you, thank you so much for

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Speaker 1: your time. Also the author of and then What Inside

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Speaker 1: Stories of twenty first century Diplomacy, and so at this

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Speaker 1: vital moment, I think for European diplomacy, I wonder what

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Speaker 1: your view is on the current political situation, how much

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Speaker 1: is you're moving to the right and why.

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Speaker 2: I used to say when I was high representative. There's

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Speaker 2: always an election somewhere in Europe twenty eight, then countries

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Speaker 2: now twenty seven. You were always in a cycle, and

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Speaker 2: it's very difficult to take a snapshot at any given moment.

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Speaker 2: It will give you a false impression. So if you

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Speaker 2: look now, we've got Poland with Donald Tusk, you couldn't

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Speaker 2: get more European than the former President of the European Council.

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Speaker 2: You've got the Netherlands with what will happen there we

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Speaker 2: don't quite know. You've got Slovakia, but he's been in

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Speaker 2: government twice before, so he's a known quantity. And of

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Speaker 2: course you've got Hungary with Victor Auburn, who has been

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Speaker 2: the most consistently challenging member when it comes to, for example,

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Speaker 2: support for Ukraine. Look across and it's very difficult to

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Speaker 2: give a real clear picture that says it's moving right.

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Speaker 2: It could be we know that there are you know Italy,

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Speaker 2: we know that they're there are issues about what.

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Speaker 1: Happened, So you don't detect anything unique about the situation

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Speaker 1: around Fortress Europe and really the increased focus on immigration.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's one particular issue, but you don't detect

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Speaker 1: a right would move on that front.

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Speaker 2: I think in terms of immigration, it is something that

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Speaker 2: is stoking a move the right, and it's being used

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Speaker 2: by the right to stalk the move to them. So

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Speaker 2: it's an issue that people are concerned about. They're concerned

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Speaker 2: about it because what they see is greater numbers of

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Speaker 2: people on the move. And with climate change we're likely

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Speaker 2: to see more people on the move. A lot of

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Speaker 2: them will not come anywhere near Europe. Most of it's

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Speaker 2: happening on confidence, particularly on Africa, but we will see

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Speaker 2: people wanting to come to Europe, and that inevitably is

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Speaker 2: an issue that political parties are going to have to

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Speaker 2: show that they've thought about and they have a good

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Speaker 2: response to. And in the EU, the big challenges between

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Speaker 2: southern states who are on the receipt of lots of

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Speaker 2: people and under the current rules people remain in the

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Speaker 2: country which they first arrive, and the northern states and

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Speaker 2: how far they're prepared to support the southern states, both

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Speaker 2: by taking people and by being willing to support and

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Speaker 2: fund what's going to be necessary. And you've seen all

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Speaker 2: the machinations going on in Brussels, and.

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Speaker 3: We've seen the proximity between the UK Prime Minister Rishisunak

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Speaker 3: and his counterpart in Italy Maloney, and their attempts to

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Speaker 3: forge pretty controversial plans around dealing with the immigration challenges.

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Speaker 3: We've seen immigrants come from Ukraine, of course and broadly

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Speaker 3: welcomed at the start of the conflict. You mentioned Victor

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Speaker 3: Orban who's been standing in the way of this funding

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Speaker 3: that's so desperately needed for Ukraine to pursue its counter

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Speaker 3: offensives against those Russian forces. What is your expectation. Do

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Speaker 3: you think Europe essentially and ultimately gets this across the line?

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Speaker 3: Is he grand standing to unlock funds that Hungary is

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Speaker 3: looking for itself. Is this a domestic political play by him? Ultimately?

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Speaker 3: Do you think the EU managed to get this across

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Speaker 3: the line.

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Speaker 2: I think they will. I mean, Victor Auburn likes the

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Speaker 2: benefits of membership very much, but doesn't like to do

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Speaker 2: the stuff that actually would make a difference to others,

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Speaker 2: either in the EU or outside the EU. And if necessary,

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Speaker 2: what you will have a sort of outside of the

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Speaker 2: EU structure, an agreement between the other countries to produce

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Speaker 2: the funds for Ukraine, with the Commission supporting that. I mean,

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Speaker 2: there are lots of ways around it, and the institutional

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Speaker 2: framework looks very rigid when you first look at it,

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Speaker 2: but they're very good at coming up with ways of

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Speaker 2: fixing things or changing things. There is a problem more generally,

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Speaker 2: when you've got one country able to hold up something

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Speaker 2: that all of the other countries feel is really important.

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Speaker 2: But let me just make one note of caution. I

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Speaker 2: don't think it's true in this case, but on other issues,

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Speaker 2: sometimes when a country seems to be the only one

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Speaker 2: causing a problem, there are other countries breathing aside of

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Speaker 2: relief that they don't have to. So not on this

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Speaker 2: because I think genuinely this is Victor Alburt and Hungary

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Speaker 2: holding out in their own But what you sometimes see

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Speaker 2: as one country holding out is actually not quite as

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Speaker 2: simple as.

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Speaker 1: An a fly carrier, perhaps for dissenters. How much pressure

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Speaker 1: do you think there is now to increase Europe's defense

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Speaker 1: budget and do you see that actually happening. I mean,

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Speaker 1: we're always interested in the data Bloomberg, and that is

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Speaker 1: very important. This obviously is more overlapping with NATO countries

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Speaker 1: in that pressure.

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Speaker 2: There always used to be a problem and a concern

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Speaker 2: that somehow the defense part of the EU work was

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Speaker 2: going to be in contradiction to NATO, that somehow people

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Speaker 2: would give money to the EU and not to NATO,

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Speaker 2: and that was always attention that particular the US and

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Speaker 2: actually the UK identified I think that's moved on. What

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Speaker 2: you've got is the much greater synergy and understanding that

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Speaker 2: what the you can do is beneficial to NATO as well.

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Speaker 2: So lots of practical work that was done by the

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Speaker 2: European defense agencies. So I do expect to see a

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Speaker 2: push on European defense industries.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and briefly, your expectation about the relationship between the

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Speaker 3: UK and Europe in the event that we get a

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Speaker 3: labor government here in the UK, do you see a

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Speaker 3: significant Do you see a dramatic improvement in that relationship?

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Speaker 2: Not dramatic, but significant. I think there will be on

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Speaker 2: both sides if you like. It's an opportunity to kind

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Speaker 2: of have a different conversation, not trapped in the conversations

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Speaker 2: of the past. I think there will be a desire

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Speaker 2: to on foreign and security policies have stronger relations. I

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Speaker 2: see David Cameron, by the way, moving in that direction anyway.

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Speaker 2: But I think Molso and I do think economically there'll

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Speaker 2: be an attempt to try and make some of the

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Speaker 2: difficult friction go away and actually find ways to collaborate

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Speaker 2: more effect.

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Speaker 1: And just lasting your how much like Tony Blair obviously

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Speaker 1: somebody that you worked with closely is kids darma in

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Speaker 1: a word, do you think he has that? Can he win?

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Speaker 3: Well?

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Speaker 2: I think it looks like he's going to win, not

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Speaker 2: least because of what the Conservatives are doing. But every

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Speaker 2: leader is completely different, so I never try and equate

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Speaker 2: one with the other.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Baroness Catherine Ashton, thank you so much for your time.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for being with us, labor life peer and

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Speaker 1: really a very interesting voice in terms of European but

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Speaker 1: also UK and labor politics.