WEBVTT - A Farewell to the Match Play and a Rollback Chat with Dean Snell 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:02.560 I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset. 0:00:02.680 --> 0:00:04.960 When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. 0:00:05.040 --> 0:00:07.000 And when I find my ball in a bride egg 0:00:07.240 --> 0:00:10.080 Friday egg, the dreaded Frida egg Frida egg, Frida egg, 0:00:10.160 --> 0:00:12.600 Brian egg Frida egg bride egg Lie, I'm about ready 0:00:12.680 --> 0:00:36.360 to run off of the hump, Joseph, I am worried 0:00:36.360 --> 0:00:39.480 about Jordan Speif should I be as worried about Jordan 0:00:39.560 --> 0:00:40.919 speed as as I am? 0:00:41.000 --> 0:00:41.480 Right now? 0:00:41.880 --> 0:00:43.640 What is your cause for concern? 0:00:44.640 --> 0:00:47.479 Look? You know, I I don't ask for much. I'm 0:00:47.520 --> 0:00:52.440 a big Speaf fan. But when he has an opportunity 0:00:52.920 --> 0:00:57.800 to win a tournament against Adam Shank and Taylor Moore 0:00:58.120 --> 0:01:01.040 and he bogies two of the last three holes and 0:01:01.080 --> 0:01:03.760 he spends the entire round not being able to hit 0:01:03.760 --> 0:01:06.240 a fair way, I just I start to get a 0:01:06.240 --> 0:01:09.120 little frustrated. I start to feel like, you know, all 0:01:09.160 --> 0:01:11.920 the Speaf haters out there, including some in our own company, 0:01:13.200 --> 0:01:15.280 that they're that they're starting to get the upper hand 0:01:15.480 --> 0:01:18.200 in the argument, and I just want a little more 0:01:18.520 --> 0:01:20.679 from Jordan. Can can you give me some hope? Is 0:01:20.720 --> 0:01:24.319 he actually turning around this season or is it just 0:01:24.400 --> 0:01:26.880 going to be a big tease like it has been 0:01:26.959 --> 0:01:28.680 for the past four or five years. 0:01:29.040 --> 0:01:31.280 Did you want him to not get into contention? Would 0:01:31.319 --> 0:01:32.040 that have been better? 0:01:32.120 --> 0:01:35.120 I mean, I'm obviously being a little a little unfair 0:01:35.200 --> 0:01:38.240 by making that comment, but you know, I think Jordan 0:01:38.280 --> 0:01:43.080 Speeths had obviously a pretty fascinating career. I don't know 0:01:43.120 --> 0:01:45.320 where the hype is right now compared to where it 0:01:45.360 --> 0:01:47.400 was last year at this time, but he showed some 0:01:47.480 --> 0:01:52.240 really strong flashes right about this time. Last year was underwhelming, 0:01:52.760 --> 0:01:56.240 especially at Augusta. But this is kind of what Jordan's 0:01:56.240 --> 0:01:58.760 game has looked like now for a little over a year. 0:01:59.480 --> 0:02:03.320 I think you should be optimistic as a Jordan Speed supporter. 0:02:03.480 --> 0:02:05.840 I mean, he's gained strokes on his approach in the 0:02:05.880 --> 0:02:09.160 last five tournaments in a row, like the putter, has 0:02:09.200 --> 0:02:12.440 shown some flashes, but it's still a little scary inside, 0:02:12.560 --> 0:02:15.399 you know, close range. But if you're somebody who's optimistic 0:02:15.400 --> 0:02:17.520 about Jordan Speed, he's giving you plenty of reasons to 0:02:17.520 --> 0:02:21.839 be optimistic, especially at a setup like Augusta. I think, 0:02:21.880 --> 0:02:25.560 like lacc, there are some reasons to be optimistic, but 0:02:25.600 --> 0:02:27.079 he's not a top five player in the world. 0:02:27.120 --> 0:02:27.640 At the moment. 0:02:28.000 --> 0:02:30.040 Okay, that's what I needed to hear. That's all I 0:02:30.120 --> 0:02:34.040 needed to hear. Thank you for giving me some reassurance. Now, 0:02:34.120 --> 0:02:38.600 Taylor Moore did did win the valspar. I really don't 0:02:38.639 --> 0:02:40.800 know a thing about Taylor Moore. Do you know a 0:02:40.800 --> 0:02:41.799 thing about Taylor Moore? 0:02:43.080 --> 0:02:43.600 He hasn't. 0:02:43.800 --> 0:02:46.000 He didn't give us a ton to hold on to. 0:02:46.280 --> 0:02:49.959 But I don't know a ton about Taylor Moore's game. 0:02:50.160 --> 0:02:52.679 I from a quick look up. I mean he hits 0:02:52.720 --> 0:02:56.639 the ball along, which is always a that's something you 0:02:56.639 --> 0:02:59.239 can hold on to as a reliable skill. The ball 0:02:59.240 --> 0:03:02.360 striking has been pretty good this calendar year, so it's 0:03:02.400 --> 0:03:06.080 impressive that he finished tied for eleventh at Tory Pines. 0:03:06.280 --> 0:03:08.600 He's actually had like a pretty good calendar year, so 0:03:08.800 --> 0:03:10.080 he's somebody to pay attention to. 0:03:10.240 --> 0:03:11.240 But you never really know. 0:03:11.320 --> 0:03:14.480 The driver's been really good, and that's a reliable skill. 0:03:14.560 --> 0:03:16.799 So sometimes wins come from players you don't always expect, 0:03:16.880 --> 0:03:18.360 and yesterday was a great example. 0:03:18.760 --> 0:03:21.120 It sounds like a lot of other PGA tour pros 0:03:21.200 --> 0:03:23.680 is That's what it sounds like to me right now. 0:03:23.800 --> 0:03:26.360 Kind of no offense to Taylor Moore. I don't know 0:03:26.400 --> 0:03:28.680 a thing about it. He might be a tremendously interesting guy, 0:03:28.720 --> 0:03:31.639 but this seems to me like an assembly line situation. 0:03:31.840 --> 0:03:33.840 Now I may be proven wrong. He may go on 0:03:33.919 --> 0:03:35.960 to have a really hot season, like a like a 0:03:36.000 --> 0:03:39.000 Sam Burns type season or something like that. But I 0:03:39.360 --> 0:03:41.360 just don't know, and I was a little frustrated. 0:03:41.400 --> 0:03:41.560 You know. 0:03:41.760 --> 0:03:43.960 I wanted to see Speef pull it out. And I 0:03:44.000 --> 0:03:47.920 guess I'm a fanboy. So that's that's all this really is. 0:03:48.160 --> 0:03:51.680 In any case. That is Joseph Lamania. I am Garrett Morrison, 0:03:51.800 --> 0:03:55.160 and you're listening to the Fridagg Podcast, and today we're 0:03:55.200 --> 0:03:59.160 going to talk about the demise of the WGC Dell 0:03:59.240 --> 0:04:02.920 Technologies match Play, the final edition of which will be 0:04:02.960 --> 0:04:06.640 played this week on the PGA Tour. After that, I'm 0:04:06.640 --> 0:04:09.720 going to talk to Dean Snell about the technological side 0:04:09.720 --> 0:04:12.640 of rolling back the golf ball. Dean is the founder 0:04:12.680 --> 0:04:16.480 and CEO of the ball manufacturer Snell Golf, as well 0:04:16.520 --> 0:04:19.720 as an engineer who worked for Titleist and Tailor Made. 0:04:19.960 --> 0:04:23.360 He's also on the record as being anti rollback, and 0:04:23.720 --> 0:04:25.840 while I do not want to turn this interview with 0:04:25.960 --> 0:04:29.680 Dean into a crossfire style debate, I do think it'll 0:04:29.680 --> 0:04:33.000 be informative to hear from an extremely well informed voice 0:04:33.600 --> 0:04:37.839 on the equipment industry side of this issue. He's a 0:04:37.880 --> 0:04:40.080 reasonable guy, he's a very smart guy, but he sees 0:04:40.120 --> 0:04:42.960 these things very, very differently than I do. Listeners are 0:04:43.040 --> 0:04:46.440 very familiar with my opinion on the rollback issue, Andy's opinion, 0:04:46.800 --> 0:04:49.080 pretty much anybody who works at the Fried Egg's opinion, 0:04:49.520 --> 0:04:51.720 and so I thought I would seek out a different 0:04:51.839 --> 0:04:55.200 point of view on this subject. At the end of 0:04:55.240 --> 0:04:57.640 the episode, Joseph and I will each give our storylines 0:04:57.640 --> 0:05:00.920 to track this week in golf. But for Joseph, let's 0:05:00.920 --> 0:05:04.560 talk about the match play. You are our Austin correspondent. 0:05:05.240 --> 0:05:07.400 Do you ever play at the Butler Pitch and Putt? 0:05:07.640 --> 0:05:09.359 I do. I love the Butler Pitch and Putt. 0:05:09.400 --> 0:05:10.560 It's a great place, isn't it. 0:05:10.760 --> 0:05:13.920 I think it's a great model for what some alternative 0:05:13.920 --> 0:05:16.360 forms of golf can look like, and it's been very successful. 0:05:16.839 --> 0:05:18.719 It's it's just in the middle of the city. For 0:05:18.760 --> 0:05:20.800 people who aren't familiar with this with this place, it's 0:05:20.800 --> 0:05:24.279 in the middle of the city, and I'm not exactly 0:05:24.320 --> 0:05:27.560 sure how many holes there are, maybe nine, And it's 0:05:27.680 --> 0:05:31.599 it's short par threes with really interesting greens, like greens 0:05:31.640 --> 0:05:34.320 that were designed by Dan Proctor. People are familiar with 0:05:34.400 --> 0:05:38.040 Dan Proctor. He worked for Corn Crenshaw has has and 0:05:38.080 --> 0:05:41.880 has done a set of a small set of really 0:05:41.920 --> 0:05:46.159 great courses with Dave excellent, including Wildhorse Wildhorse Golf Club 0:05:46.279 --> 0:05:49.800 in Nebraska, which we've raved about. And so there are 0:05:49.800 --> 0:05:52.840 these fascinating greens, and you know, it's just a it's 0:05:52.920 --> 0:05:55.400 just a little par three course in the middle of 0:05:55.440 --> 0:05:57.159 the city, pretty small footprint, right. 0:05:57.560 --> 0:06:01.240 Yeah, it's turf tea boxes. You show up, you throw 0:06:01.279 --> 0:06:03.839 your you pay, you put your golf ball into a holder. 0:06:03.960 --> 0:06:06.800 That that's you're in the queue. When you're up, you go. 0:06:06.880 --> 0:06:09.839 It's nine holes. There's beer carts. You sometimes have to 0:06:09.880 --> 0:06:13.640 watch out for some stray golf balls because it doesn't 0:06:13.640 --> 0:06:15.599 always attract the best player. But that's just part of 0:06:15.600 --> 0:06:18.359 the experience. And you don't really need more than like 0:06:18.400 --> 0:06:20.880 a gap wedge or a pitching wedge. But I'm hopeful 0:06:20.880 --> 0:06:22.320 that post rollback, maybe you'll need. 0:06:22.200 --> 0:06:27.320 A nine iris's that's what rollback is really about, protecting 0:06:27.440 --> 0:06:31.599 the butler pitching putt, precisely, making people club up and 0:06:31.640 --> 0:06:32.920 play those greens. 0:06:32.880 --> 0:06:34.159 Properly as they were designed. 0:06:34.240 --> 0:06:37.279 Yeah, all right, So you know, main topic in Austin 0:06:37.480 --> 0:06:40.239 this week obviously is the match Play, which is going 0:06:40.279 --> 0:06:44.800 away after this year. Very sad but somewhat predictable, and 0:06:44.839 --> 0:06:47.640 we'll get to some of the factors that caused its 0:06:47.920 --> 0:06:50.400 demise in a minute, but first I want to talk 0:06:50.440 --> 0:06:54.560 a little bit about Austin Country Club. This is I 0:06:54.600 --> 0:06:56.680 think one of the best courses on the PGA Tour, 0:06:56.720 --> 0:06:59.200 and it's one of the reasons that I'm pretty sad 0:06:59.279 --> 0:07:01.000 about the fact that we're not going to see the 0:07:01.040 --> 0:07:03.440 match play again, not just because match play is a 0:07:03.440 --> 0:07:06.880 great format that I really enjoy, but also because Austin 0:07:06.920 --> 0:07:10.280 Country Club is a cool course to see annually and 0:07:10.320 --> 0:07:13.680 we're not going to anymore. So just as a sendoff, 0:07:13.960 --> 0:07:18.040 what do you think makes ACC a special venue for 0:07:18.360 --> 0:07:19.080 tournament golf? 0:07:19.480 --> 0:07:20.760 Yeah, I could go deep here. 0:07:20.840 --> 0:07:23.600 I love Austin Country Club personally, think it's one of 0:07:23.640 --> 0:07:26.520 the best courses on the PGA Tour. I've always kind 0:07:26.560 --> 0:07:29.240 of objected to when people say it's a great match 0:07:29.280 --> 0:07:32.200 play course but kind of imply that it wouldn't be 0:07:32.240 --> 0:07:34.240 a great stroke play course. I think it'd be a 0:07:34.240 --> 0:07:37.240 great stroke play tournament that you could have here too, 0:07:37.400 --> 0:07:42.840 so I love it. It penalizes whyde misses heavily. There's a 0:07:42.960 --> 0:07:45.480 lot of variety in the holes. I think the par 0:07:45.640 --> 0:07:49.880 fives are excellent. There's one course that I'm kind of 0:07:49.920 --> 0:07:53.600 on the record of appreciating is TPC San Antonio, and 0:07:53.680 --> 0:07:56.760 I would describe Austin Country Club as a much better 0:07:56.880 --> 0:08:00.680 version of that golf course, really big pre for hitting 0:08:00.680 --> 0:08:03.880 accurate drives. A lot of different players can succeed there, 0:08:04.200 --> 0:08:07.280 and like Cordy Connor's finished third at del match Play 0:08:07.360 --> 0:08:09.560 last year, he's a winner at TPC San Antonio. I 0:08:09.560 --> 0:08:12.280 think that's the best comparison, But Dell match Play, Austin 0:08:12.320 --> 0:08:15.520 Country Club is just a better version of that interesting. 0:08:15.960 --> 0:08:18.760 So you wouldn't compare it necessarily to like the other 0:08:18.840 --> 0:08:21.400 Pete Die courses on tour as much. 0:08:21.520 --> 0:08:25.080 Well, I mean, like PJA West, less of a much 0:08:25.160 --> 0:08:28.000 less of a penalty to being arrant off the tee. 0:08:28.280 --> 0:08:29.560 And then if you were to think about some other 0:08:29.600 --> 0:08:33.760 courses like Sawgrass or Harbor Town, those you have to 0:08:33.800 --> 0:08:35.440 be accurate, but it's doing it in a little bit 0:08:35.440 --> 0:08:38.280 of a different way, with like really small greens and 0:08:39.160 --> 0:08:42.560 tight tree lined corridors where you're not even always hitting driver. 0:08:42.960 --> 0:08:46.880 At Austin Country Club, it's a little more open feeling, 0:08:47.000 --> 0:08:49.079 but you can get into some trouble off the tees, 0:08:49.600 --> 0:08:52.240 especially with how firm it is out there. So it 0:08:52.280 --> 0:08:55.040 penalizes wide misses in a similar way to a course 0:08:55.080 --> 0:08:58.240 like Sawgrass in terms of magnitude. It just does it 0:08:58.280 --> 0:09:00.080 in a different way, and it's a way that I 0:09:00.080 --> 0:09:00.920 think is more appealing. 0:09:01.640 --> 0:09:03.760 And so what is that different way? If you were 0:09:03.800 --> 0:09:06.120 to put a finer point on that, I think we 0:09:06.160 --> 0:09:09.440 all know what The way that TPC Sawgrass penalizes wide 0:09:09.520 --> 0:09:13.800 missus is there's water right, or there's thick trees or 0:09:14.160 --> 0:09:18.320 something really straightforwardly penal Austin Country Club's like a little 0:09:18.320 --> 0:09:21.720 bit wider right, And you say, it does this same 0:09:21.760 --> 0:09:23.720 thing in a different way, So what is that. 0:09:24.200 --> 0:09:27.440 There are some penalties kind of on the perimeters. So 0:09:27.720 --> 0:09:30.960 a great example would be the driveable par four. The 0:09:31.040 --> 0:09:34.559 fifth hole, there's out of bounds down the entire left side, 0:09:34.640 --> 0:09:36.599 So if you're going to go for that green, you 0:09:36.640 --> 0:09:38.560 can't just spray it. You could go out of bounds 0:09:38.559 --> 0:09:42.439 like that. That's an example. Whole six, great par five. 0:09:43.040 --> 0:09:44.840 If you just get a little bit off there, you 0:09:44.880 --> 0:09:46.640 can't get home in two. It's really hard to get 0:09:46.679 --> 0:09:48.360 home into even if you hit a good drive. But 0:09:49.040 --> 0:09:52.360 some of the holes kind of have pretty steep runoff 0:09:52.400 --> 0:09:56.280 almost off of the fairways. Whole ten would be another example, 0:09:56.800 --> 0:09:59.440 short par four where if you just blow it out right, 0:09:59.480 --> 0:10:01.840 you can kind of down a big down slope. So 0:10:02.480 --> 0:10:04.280 it does it in a variety of ways, but there's 0:10:04.320 --> 0:10:07.960 just penalties on some of the perimeters. Even whole nine, 0:10:07.960 --> 0:10:10.640 which I think people will be familiar with, big down 0:10:10.720 --> 0:10:14.199 slope in the fairway. It's a par four with water 0:10:14.360 --> 0:10:17.319 to the left. And this is a controversial hole. I 0:10:17.320 --> 0:10:19.360 remember Spied hit it in the water last year and 0:10:19.480 --> 0:10:21.160 was really upset that his ball went in the water. 0:10:21.400 --> 0:10:23.960 But if you favor the right side of that fairway, 0:10:24.000 --> 0:10:26.840 then shouldn't go into the water. So it just it 0:10:26.960 --> 0:10:29.680 just kind of requires precision in an interesting way that 0:10:29.800 --> 0:10:32.160 kind of varies holes a hole, but overall, you got 0:10:32.160 --> 0:10:33.719 to hit it online there or you're either going to 0:10:33.800 --> 0:10:38.080 run into some trees and some dry spots. Another example 0:10:38.120 --> 0:10:40.599 would be like hole eight, also off the tee on 0:10:40.640 --> 0:10:42.400 the right on hole nine, you can get into some trees, 0:10:42.640 --> 0:10:44.679 but there's water out there. I mean, it just does 0:10:44.720 --> 0:10:46.920 it a variety of ways. I think it's an excellent 0:10:46.960 --> 0:10:48.800 example of having a diverse set of holes. 0:10:49.200 --> 0:10:53.760 You mentioned hole nine and number eight. Is there another 0:10:53.880 --> 0:10:57.880 hole that's maybe not ballyhooed like the like some of 0:10:57.920 --> 0:11:00.720 the river holes are, or or some of the most 0:11:00.720 --> 0:11:03.680 photogenicals are. Is there a hole out there that you 0:11:03.720 --> 0:11:07.559 think people should really pay attention to as being representative 0:11:07.720 --> 0:11:09.760 of the virtues of this course. 0:11:10.520 --> 0:11:12.520 Yeah, there's a lot of good ones. I mean, I 0:11:12.559 --> 0:11:15.760 think hull five's are great drivable four I really like. 0:11:15.840 --> 0:11:18.040 I actually think Hule one's a pretty good opening hole. 0:11:18.240 --> 0:11:21.000 Yeah, and it does. 0:11:21.520 --> 0:11:24.960 There's bunkers down the left side. It leaves a really 0:11:25.080 --> 0:11:28.600 touchy bunker shot. If you find a bunker on the left, 0:11:28.640 --> 0:11:31.920 you might have a little wedge, big downslope over the 0:11:31.960 --> 0:11:34.120 back of the green that you cannot go long. Yes, 0:11:34.200 --> 0:11:36.360 so a lot of players like to favor the right side. 0:11:36.400 --> 0:11:39.400 But if you remember a lot of past memories at 0:11:39.480 --> 0:11:41.840 Dell matchplay, you'll recall a lot of players in the 0:11:41.880 --> 0:11:44.760 trees kind of over by the concessions on whole one. 0:11:44.920 --> 0:11:47.840 Bryson's that been there a number of times, and part 0:11:47.840 --> 0:11:50.400 of the reason for that is the left side's a problem. 0:11:50.800 --> 0:11:53.800 But you can't just launch driver down the right side either, 0:11:53.880 --> 0:11:56.320 And I think that's such a refreshing departure from some 0:11:56.440 --> 0:11:59.320 other setups like Tory Pines and like Bay Hill, where 0:11:59.400 --> 0:12:02.040 normally you just have to take one side out of 0:12:02.080 --> 0:12:04.160 play and you can kind of blast it down the 0:12:04.200 --> 0:12:08.000 other side. Austin Country Club doesn't afford you that opportunity, 0:12:08.200 --> 0:12:10.120 So that's something I really appreciate about it. 0:12:11.040 --> 0:12:14.120 So Number one, you can, like I've seen players drive 0:12:14.160 --> 0:12:17.280 that green right depending on where the tea is, like 0:12:17.400 --> 0:12:20.360 really get it up near the green on that hole. 0:12:20.440 --> 0:12:24.400 It's generally downhill, I believe, but it kind of turns, 0:12:24.480 --> 0:12:26.960 has a sharp turn in it, and they're just like 0:12:27.120 --> 0:12:29.040 I've seen drives all over the place on that hole. 0:12:29.160 --> 0:12:31.440 Just a wide, wide range of outcomes. 0:12:31.840 --> 0:12:33.400 Yeah, it's a great opening hole. 0:12:33.600 --> 0:12:35.920 It's a bit demanding off the tee and you do 0:12:36.000 --> 0:12:38.280 kind of want to favor the right side there, But again, 0:12:38.280 --> 0:12:40.440 if you spray it out right, you run into a 0:12:40.440 --> 0:12:41.440 problem really quickly. 0:12:41.559 --> 0:12:41.719 Yeah. 0:12:41.720 --> 0:12:43.520 I guess one other hole I throw out is fourteen, 0:12:44.200 --> 0:12:48.680 a cool hole along the water, and there's a bunker 0:12:48.720 --> 0:12:51.240 down the left side that you don't really want to 0:12:51.280 --> 0:12:53.160 be in and there's water down the left, so a 0:12:53.200 --> 0:12:55.600 lot of players kind of blast it out right. But 0:12:55.640 --> 0:12:57.480 you can't just blast it out right there and have 0:12:57.559 --> 0:13:00.800 an easy approach shot in. You often are with wind 0:13:01.000 --> 0:13:04.120 long approach shot into that green. Just bailing out way 0:13:04.240 --> 0:13:06.640 right becomes a problem too. So I think it's a 0:13:06.640 --> 0:13:09.720 good example of having some room to navigate out there, 0:13:10.000 --> 0:13:13.640 but a real reward for finding the fairway. And again 0:13:13.679 --> 0:13:16.199 you have a lot of players like Billy Horschell, Kevin Kisner, 0:13:16.240 --> 0:13:19.280 Matt Kocher, Cory Connors. Those are the type of players 0:13:19.280 --> 0:13:21.440 who have had success there, so that's not a coincidence. 0:13:21.880 --> 0:13:25.280 So farewell, Austin Country Club. You will be missed. This 0:13:25.400 --> 0:13:27.560 is a good PGA Tour venue. I can't imagine that 0:13:27.600 --> 0:13:29.959 it's going to be replaced by something in its schedule 0:13:30.000 --> 0:13:33.319 spot that's equally interesting. But I have heard word that 0:13:33.360 --> 0:13:37.120 the Houston Open might be moving back to the spring, 0:13:37.160 --> 0:13:40.400 and that's on a really interesting Tom Doak renovated golf 0:13:40.400 --> 0:13:43.400 course in Memorial Park. And so maybe that's the one 0:13:43.440 --> 0:13:46.240 silver lining here is that will we'll get to see 0:13:46.360 --> 0:13:51.320 another really well designed Texas course highlighted at this spot 0:13:51.360 --> 0:13:54.520 in the schedule. But you know, other than that, I'm 0:13:54.559 --> 0:13:58.160 not happy about saying acc go away, so kind of 0:13:58.280 --> 0:14:00.679 rip is as far as the schedules concerned. I'm sure 0:14:00.679 --> 0:14:03.040 that the membership is not that unhappy about it, though, 0:14:03.120 --> 0:14:05.960 so they'll kind of get their golf course back at 0:14:06.000 --> 0:14:08.800 this time of year. So let's talk about what happened 0:14:08.840 --> 0:14:11.480 to the match play. You know, there's been some reporting 0:14:11.480 --> 0:14:16.080 around this. It's not totally clear, honestly why this tournament 0:14:16.120 --> 0:14:19.800 went away, but you can put together some narratives about 0:14:19.880 --> 0:14:24.920 why the tournament wasn't just more successful than it was, 0:14:25.320 --> 0:14:27.760 and we'll talk about some of those, but just to 0:14:27.760 --> 0:14:30.800 get into some of the reporting around it, why this 0:14:30.880 --> 0:14:34.400 tournament ended up dying. Adam Schupack had a good report 0:14:34.440 --> 0:14:38.040 for Golf Week a little while back, and he heard 0:14:38.040 --> 0:14:40.000 a number of different things from a number of different people. 0:14:40.080 --> 0:14:43.800 Kevin Streelman, who's on the Player Advisory Council, told him 0:14:44.160 --> 0:14:46.480 that it was a sponsorship issue, which means that it 0:14:46.520 --> 0:14:49.320 was a Dell issue, And you know, that fits with 0:14:49.400 --> 0:14:50.960 some of the things that we've heard over the years 0:14:50.960 --> 0:14:54.960 about Dell's feelings about this tournament. It was just in 0:14:55.160 --> 0:14:59.320 twenty nineteen that Dell suggested that the PGA tour finished 0:14:59.320 --> 0:15:02.360 the tournament with thirty six holes of stroke play, and 0:15:02.400 --> 0:15:04.200 some players in the room were like, well, what would 0:15:04.200 --> 0:15:07.720 you call it then? So Dell was not happy. I 0:15:07.760 --> 0:15:09.840 don't think with the match play format, and with the 0:15:09.920 --> 0:15:12.720 fact that you know, you could get to a Sunday 0:15:13.080 --> 0:15:15.360 and you would have two players that people weren't really 0:15:15.440 --> 0:15:18.720 interested in vying for the championship. You wouldn't have the 0:15:18.760 --> 0:15:22.520 big names there on the final day to attract people's attention, 0:15:23.080 --> 0:15:26.840 and Dell was looking for different ways to alleviate that issue. Obviously, 0:15:26.920 --> 0:15:28.960 there was a big format change a few years ago 0:15:29.040 --> 0:15:32.560 where you know, the first rounds became round robin instead 0:15:32.600 --> 0:15:36.120 of immediate elimination, and so the format was an issue 0:15:36.120 --> 0:15:38.760 for the sponsor. The sponsor was not happy, and so 0:15:38.840 --> 0:15:41.760 Streamann saying that it was a sponsorship issue would seem 0:15:41.760 --> 0:15:45.360 to be accurate. Now, another issue was the host venue 0:15:45.560 --> 0:15:49.560 and the membership's attitude towards hosting a yearly PGA Tour event, 0:15:49.840 --> 0:15:54.120 which is very understandable according to Adam Shuepack. Again, the 0:15:54.160 --> 0:15:57.800 tour clashed with Austin Country Club over the terms of 0:15:57.840 --> 0:16:01.600 a contract extension and they kind of went back and 0:16:01.640 --> 0:16:06.360 forth about this and Ultimately, Panavidra apparently just went radio 0:16:06.440 --> 0:16:10.240 silent and stopped negotiating with Austin Country Club, even when 0:16:10.320 --> 0:16:14.240 acc made it clear that they were willing to come 0:16:14.320 --> 0:16:16.680 up with some kind of deal to keep the tournament 0:16:16.720 --> 0:16:19.400 coming back, it appeared that the PGA Tour at a 0:16:19.440 --> 0:16:22.920 certain point just wasn't interested. So now the tour has 0:16:22.960 --> 0:16:25.720 confirmed that there will be no match play event on 0:16:25.760 --> 0:16:28.680 the schedule next year. Joseph, why do you think it 0:16:28.760 --> 0:16:33.320 is that match play didn't survive on the PGA Tour 0:16:33.360 --> 0:16:35.680 in this era and do you think it's just an 0:16:35.720 --> 0:16:39.000 awkward fit overall for the modern PGA Tour. 0:16:39.680 --> 0:16:41.680 I think it is an awkward fit for the modern 0:16:41.720 --> 0:16:44.720 PGA Tour. But to me, that's kind of an indictment 0:16:44.800 --> 0:16:49.520 of the golf ecosystem, the current state of the golf ecosystem, 0:16:49.560 --> 0:16:52.400 and why some reform would be nice. And maybe we've 0:16:52.400 --> 0:16:54.800 already started to move in that direction with some of 0:16:54.840 --> 0:16:57.720 the schedule changes that have been announced for next year. 0:16:57.760 --> 0:17:01.280 But there are a lot of logistics goal issues with 0:17:01.800 --> 0:17:03.960 adell match play. Players don't know how long they're going 0:17:04.040 --> 0:17:07.640 to be there, Fans don't know exactly when they can 0:17:07.680 --> 0:17:10.280 show up, and who they're going to see when they 0:17:10.280 --> 0:17:13.000 do show up. So if you plan that, you know 0:17:13.040 --> 0:17:15.760 you want to show up for the Saturday or the Sunday. 0:17:16.040 --> 0:17:18.880 I mean Sunday only has a couple golfers on the course. Anyway, 0:17:19.320 --> 0:17:21.679 I think another huge issue that they've had is that 0:17:21.760 --> 0:17:25.199 Sundays are sleepy because there's only four golfers on the course. 0:17:25.600 --> 0:17:27.280 And the point that I would make, which is not 0:17:27.320 --> 0:17:29.200 a this is not my first time making this point 0:17:29.200 --> 0:17:32.119 on this podcast, is that it's hard to understand what 0:17:32.160 --> 0:17:35.480 the stakes are. If you're playing for money, we get that, 0:17:35.920 --> 0:17:39.040 but if you're playing for FedEx Cup standings on like 0:17:39.119 --> 0:17:42.040 the runners up match on Sunday, why should somebody care 0:17:42.119 --> 0:17:44.720 about how many points are being allocated to the winner 0:17:44.760 --> 0:17:47.960 of that match. I think the PGA Tours schedule change, 0:17:47.960 --> 0:17:49.760 and this is something we'll talk about more on this pod. 0:17:49.800 --> 0:17:53.040 I'm sure has improved that because now only the top 0:17:53.080 --> 0:17:56.200 fifty players in the FedEx Cup standings are getting into 0:17:56.240 --> 0:17:58.520 all of the designated events the following year, So this 0:17:58.640 --> 0:18:01.560 runner up match and the final match might actually have 0:18:01.640 --> 0:18:04.640 a little bit more meaning. That being said, it's still 0:18:04.680 --> 0:18:07.560 only four golfers on the course, and from a broadcasting 0:18:07.640 --> 0:18:11.479 perspective and from a fan experience perspective that has an impact. 0:18:11.560 --> 0:18:13.800 It's not ideal, but I'd love to see a little 0:18:13.840 --> 0:18:15.880 bit of reform so that we can get a match 0:18:15.920 --> 0:18:19.280 play event on the schedule that is appetizing and is 0:18:19.320 --> 0:18:21.800 appealing for both sponsors and fans, because in my opinion, 0:18:21.840 --> 0:18:23.440 it's the most compelling format of golf. 0:18:23.960 --> 0:18:27.320 Now, there's another issue with match play, and it's fit 0:18:27.480 --> 0:18:30.080 on the PGA Tour that I've heard you mentioned before, 0:18:30.760 --> 0:18:33.320 and that has to do with the official World Golf 0:18:33.440 --> 0:18:37.160 Ranking and the way that all works with a match 0:18:37.240 --> 0:18:40.159 play event. Could you explain that sure. 0:18:40.280 --> 0:18:43.160 I mean, it's just a known thing with Dell matchplay 0:18:43.160 --> 0:18:45.040 that you might play a good couple of days and 0:18:45.080 --> 0:18:48.400 still get eliminated, right like you can be Scotti Scheffler, 0:18:49.080 --> 0:18:52.920 play two really good rounds of golf, just get beat 0:18:53.000 --> 0:18:55.840 by somebody who gets hot, and then maybe push in 0:18:55.920 --> 0:18:59.720 your third match, and you're going home and you're gonna 0:18:59.720 --> 0:19:03.600 be pen from like an official World Golf rankings perspective, 0:19:03.840 --> 0:19:05.840 but if that had been a stroke play event, you 0:19:05.960 --> 0:19:09.399 might be tied for fifteenth after those three days. So 0:19:09.440 --> 0:19:12.520 it's just it's a high variance format that especially if 0:19:12.520 --> 0:19:15.120 you're one of the best players in the world, and 0:19:15.160 --> 0:19:17.840 if the course doesn't fit your game particularly well, your 0:19:17.840 --> 0:19:22.320 expectations OWGR wise are not high that week. It's also 0:19:22.400 --> 0:19:26.280 worth calling out that the new methodology implemented in August 0:19:26.359 --> 0:19:29.480 of twenty twenty two rewards large fields, and this is 0:19:29.520 --> 0:19:33.680 a small field. This is sixty four players, so they're 0:19:33.720 --> 0:19:36.960 not even as large of a sum of total points 0:19:36.960 --> 0:19:40.280 being allocated to the event anyway from an OWGR perspective. 0:19:40.480 --> 0:19:41.919 And so this is one of the ways. 0:19:41.680 --> 0:19:44.040 That I've been critical of some of the changes to 0:19:44.080 --> 0:19:47.160 the OWGR and will continue to voice that that maybe 0:19:47.160 --> 0:19:51.080 it's not a good thing that the OWGR rigid methodology 0:19:51.560 --> 0:19:54.680 disincentivizes an event like matchplay from existing, because I think 0:19:54.680 --> 0:19:59.040 the golf world would be better if OWGR facilitated match 0:19:59.080 --> 0:20:02.920 play on the calendar, hopefully ideally more than once a year. 0:20:03.240 --> 0:20:06.159 Yeah, I mean, what we're seeing is a couple of 0:20:06.200 --> 0:20:12.560 different factors promoting format homogeneity. One factor is the broadcast. 0:20:12.800 --> 0:20:15.360 Seventy two hole stroke play is just the format that 0:20:16.160 --> 0:20:19.800 the telecast seems to like, the one that it's comfortable with, 0:20:20.200 --> 0:20:22.439 the one that it really wants every event in the 0:20:22.560 --> 0:20:26.000 end to be because it just kind of works for 0:20:26.240 --> 0:20:30.639 the networks. And then you have OWGR, which, especially in 0:20:30.760 --> 0:20:34.359 light of the recent changes to the formula, would strongly 0:20:34.880 --> 0:20:38.359 penalize essentially participating in a match play event because match 0:20:38.359 --> 0:20:42.000 play events have to be smaller fields and the top 0:20:42.040 --> 0:20:44.919 players are going to have to deal with some of 0:20:45.000 --> 0:20:48.159 the randomness of match play, of the fact that you 0:20:48.240 --> 0:20:51.280 might just get beat by somebody who would probably not 0:20:51.440 --> 0:20:54.760 beat you over seventy two holes of stroke play. And 0:20:54.800 --> 0:20:58.600 so these influences of these various institutions on the PGA 0:20:58.680 --> 0:21:03.240 Tour has just caused match play, which is the most traditional, 0:21:03.320 --> 0:21:07.800 most important historical format in golf, to be chased off 0:21:07.840 --> 0:21:10.480 of the PGA Tour, which is kind of remarkable, but 0:21:10.560 --> 0:21:14.639 it's a testament to the strength of those influences trying 0:21:14.680 --> 0:21:17.480 to get every PGA Tour event to be the same. 0:21:18.119 --> 0:21:19.840 And so, how do you deal with this, Joseph, from 0:21:19.880 --> 0:21:25.200 an institutional or from a systemic perspective, With the broadcast existing, 0:21:25.320 --> 0:21:28.800 with the OWGR existing as it does right now, how 0:21:28.800 --> 0:21:31.040 do you solve this problem? How do you encourage the 0:21:31.040 --> 0:21:34.679 PGA Tour to try new things, or any tour to 0:21:34.760 --> 0:21:37.520 try new things other than seventy two holes of stroke play. 0:21:38.080 --> 0:21:40.159 It's a good question. I don't know how deep you 0:21:40.200 --> 0:21:42.080 want me to go into one of my solutions, but. 0:21:42.880 --> 0:21:45.080 One of your solutions. And you wrote a newsletter about 0:21:45.080 --> 0:21:47.720 this this morning, which is excellent. People check out Finding 0:21:47.760 --> 0:21:50.120 the Edge newsletter. Joseph always writes great stuff in there, 0:21:50.160 --> 0:21:52.320 as well as for us in the Friday newsletter. But 0:21:52.440 --> 0:21:56.920 you say, right off the bat, get rid of THEWOWGR. 0:21:57.160 --> 0:21:59.040 So I'm happy to te you up for that one 0:21:59.080 --> 0:22:00.000 if you want to go into it. 0:22:00.480 --> 0:22:02.520 Yeah, And I might be getting a little dramatic with 0:22:02.560 --> 0:22:04.359 phrasing it that way, like you could just kind of 0:22:04.400 --> 0:22:05.640 reform the OWGR. 0:22:05.720 --> 0:22:10.080 But if the OWGR, or let's. 0:22:09.800 --> 0:22:13.920 Just just say major championships allocated spots to tours based 0:22:13.920 --> 0:22:17.639 on their order of merit, then tours could have whatever 0:22:17.680 --> 0:22:22.199 formats they want because they the OWGR basically be outsourcing 0:22:22.520 --> 0:22:25.520 that order of merit calculation to the tours instead of 0:22:25.520 --> 0:22:29.240 dictating it themselves, which they are the ones administering the ranking. 0:22:29.359 --> 0:22:31.919 So if Augusta said, hey, pg Tour, you get seventy 0:22:31.920 --> 0:22:34.720 spots in our major this year, then the PGA Tour 0:22:34.800 --> 0:22:37.199 could have whatever kind of calendar it wanted, and it 0:22:37.240 --> 0:22:40.440 could send the top seventy players from the FedEx Cup standings, 0:22:40.440 --> 0:22:43.560 which would mean that you could have match play multiple 0:22:43.560 --> 0:22:47.920 times because you're responsible for the methodology. So that's one 0:22:47.960 --> 0:22:50.520 way you could solve it is getting away a little 0:22:50.520 --> 0:22:55.160 bit from letting owgr dictate all the terms of qualification, 0:22:55.280 --> 0:22:57.800 maybe just outsourcing that to the tours, letting them run 0:22:57.840 --> 0:23:00.520 their own formats and allocating points how they see fit. 0:23:00.880 --> 0:23:03.440 So I think that's one one way you could get 0:23:03.480 --> 0:23:07.600 around it. Perhaps you could also tweak the format a 0:23:07.680 --> 0:23:10.280 little bit. I think one thing we haven't talked about 0:23:10.320 --> 0:23:14.400 that's interesting. Match play starts on Wednesday. Wednesday is probably 0:23:14.440 --> 0:23:16.960 the best day to go out to Austin country Club 0:23:17.000 --> 0:23:21.360 because every player is starting with a fresh slate, optimisms high. 0:23:21.880 --> 0:23:24.359 No one feels like they can't win at that point. 0:23:24.960 --> 0:23:28.320 By Thursday, since it's pool play, some players who have 0:23:28.400 --> 0:23:30.520 lost their first match, there's already a little bit of 0:23:30.560 --> 0:23:33.439 wind out of their sales. By Friday, some players are 0:23:33.440 --> 0:23:36.160 playing matches that don't matter at all. Yeah days they've 0:23:36.160 --> 0:23:39.359 already been eliminated. And then on Sunday you have a 0:23:39.400 --> 0:23:42.959 really sleepy only four golfers on the course. Ticket prices 0:23:42.960 --> 0:23:45.719 are really low. Every year for Dell matchplay on Sunday, 0:23:45.720 --> 0:23:48.160 despite it being the final day, I'm sure the broadcast 0:23:48.160 --> 0:23:50.800 doesn't do huge numbers. So if you think about it, 0:23:50.920 --> 0:23:54.159 Friday and Sunday are two of the sleepiest days of 0:23:54.200 --> 0:23:56.880 the event, which those should be days that a lot 0:23:56.880 --> 0:24:00.000 of people are tuned in. So I do think structure 0:24:00.680 --> 0:24:02.520 there's a little bit of an issue there, and with 0:24:02.600 --> 0:24:05.560 some tweaks to the format, I think you could get 0:24:05.560 --> 0:24:06.000 away from that. 0:24:06.040 --> 0:24:06.480 A little bit. 0:24:07.040 --> 0:24:11.399 Yeah, that's really interesting because definitely, by far the best 0:24:11.480 --> 0:24:15.000 days of the match play are Wednesday and Saturday. 0:24:15.560 --> 0:24:18.520 And on top of that, if it starts on Wednesday, 0:24:18.600 --> 0:24:20.680 think about a player like Justin Thomas who wanted. 0:24:20.520 --> 0:24:21.320 To play the Valspar. 0:24:22.119 --> 0:24:24.520 If he plays Valspar and that finishes on Sunday, that's 0:24:24.560 --> 0:24:27.280 a tight turnaround to get to Austin and t things 0:24:27.359 --> 0:24:30.560 up on Wednesday morning. So it just it maybe isn't 0:24:30.560 --> 0:24:33.240 presenting the best set of incentives for a player to 0:24:33.280 --> 0:24:34.359 go show up for that event. 0:24:35.040 --> 0:24:38.320 So then, you know, considering all of that, what is 0:24:38.359 --> 0:24:41.040 your argument for keeping match play on the PGA Tour. 0:24:41.119 --> 0:24:45.840 Let's consider the alternate perspective here, right, the sponsors view, 0:24:45.920 --> 0:24:49.680 the OWGRS view whoever right the player's view that match 0:24:49.680 --> 0:24:53.040 play is a problematic format for them, what is the 0:24:53.119 --> 0:24:56.320 strong argument that we can make to them that match 0:24:56.320 --> 0:24:58.320 play should have a place on the PGA Tour. 0:24:58.760 --> 0:25:01.399 I think it's the best format golf, full stop, and 0:25:01.480 --> 0:25:04.600 I think it's produced some of the best authentic drama. 0:25:04.680 --> 0:25:07.040 As the tour comes up with the player Impact program 0:25:07.119 --> 0:25:10.840 right tries to incentivize drama, tries to beef up rival 0:25:11.000 --> 0:25:15.399 rees like Bryson and Brooks, Dell Matchplay produced it just 0:25:15.680 --> 0:25:18.600 within its format without even trying to conjure drama. 0:25:18.680 --> 0:25:18.800 Right. 0:25:18.840 --> 0:25:21.800 We had Sergio and Kocher get into it, Kevin nah 0:25:21.840 --> 0:25:23.840 and Dustin Johnson kind of have a little bit of 0:25:23.840 --> 0:25:26.800 a skirmish. There have been these head to head duels 0:25:26.800 --> 0:25:29.920 that have been really cool at Dell Matchplay, and that's 0:25:30.000 --> 0:25:33.240 just a byproduct of a cool format. So I think 0:25:33.240 --> 0:25:35.480 if you could make Sundays a little bit more compelling, 0:25:36.000 --> 0:25:38.560 and there are ways to do that, then we might 0:25:38.600 --> 0:25:41.320 actually be able to sell to sponsors. Hey, this format 0:25:41.320 --> 0:25:43.080 could work, and it produces some of the best golf 0:25:43.080 --> 0:25:48.040 we see all year. So I think match play it 0:25:48.359 --> 0:25:52.159 just produces drama that you don't have to conjure. I 0:25:52.160 --> 0:25:54.000 think we should have match play multiple times a year, 0:25:54.040 --> 0:25:55.920 and you actually can then at the end of a 0:25:55.920 --> 0:25:58.080 player's career say well, what was his match play record? 0:25:58.720 --> 0:26:01.480 Jordan Spieth versus Justin Tom what were they in match 0:26:01.480 --> 0:26:05.119 play against one another? But now we're removing that context 0:26:05.119 --> 0:26:07.480 completely from the PGA Tour, which I think is a mistake. 0:26:07.520 --> 0:26:09.840 I mean, even think about a story like Steven Ames 0:26:09.840 --> 0:26:12.280 and Tiger Woods. How fun of a story is that 0:26:12.359 --> 0:26:14.840 to reflect on and Tiger completely trounced him. 0:26:15.080 --> 0:26:18.480 It's become a way of understanding everything Steven Aames versus 0:26:18.480 --> 0:26:22.920 Tiger Woods. Anytime anybody sees a huge blowout or somebody 0:26:23.440 --> 0:26:26.439 you know talking a little bit too much before a 0:26:26.480 --> 0:26:28.359 match and then and then getting beaten, or before a 0:26:28.359 --> 0:26:31.200 game and getting beaten, they got aimed, right. 0:26:31.200 --> 0:26:32.800 And I think again, if you go out and you 0:26:32.800 --> 0:26:35.320 have a bad day as a PGA Tour player, it 0:26:35.320 --> 0:26:37.800 could just be a seventy five in a stroke play event, 0:26:37.840 --> 0:26:40.080 and you can justify it however you want. But if 0:26:40.119 --> 0:26:41.919 you go out and match play and you lose, you're 0:26:42.040 --> 0:26:45.160 zero to one, there's a finality to that, and there's 0:26:45.200 --> 0:26:49.080 something refreshing about having a win loss record that I 0:26:49.080 --> 0:26:51.600 think golf benefits from, even though we only see it 0:26:52.320 --> 0:26:54.960 team events and Dell match play once a year, which 0:26:55.000 --> 0:26:56.080 now we're not going to see anymore. 0:26:56.480 --> 0:26:59.080 Well, that's kind of sad, But let's hope that some 0:26:59.080 --> 0:27:01.960 people are listening and see some potential and match play 0:27:02.280 --> 0:27:05.720 and understand that when it comes to the entertainment product, 0:27:05.720 --> 0:27:09.600 that match play holds enormous potential. Just think of that 0:27:10.080 --> 0:27:14.080 Full Swing episode, the first Full Swing episode Frenemies Jordan 0:27:14.160 --> 0:27:16.680 Speith and Justin Thomas. You know what would be really 0:27:16.720 --> 0:27:19.600 meaningful is if Jordan Speith and Justin Thomas went up 0:27:19.640 --> 0:27:22.840 against each other in match play and Jordan one or 0:27:22.960 --> 0:27:26.560 Justin one, and we and we looked at that closely 0:27:27.080 --> 0:27:30.400 and understood how that shifted the dynamic of their relationship, 0:27:30.440 --> 0:27:34.080 because otherwise I don't buy that they're frenemies. So let's 0:27:34.080 --> 0:27:37.720 just hope that somebody, somebody out there with money sees 0:27:37.800 --> 0:27:40.760 that there's that opportunity and uh and takes it up. 0:27:41.160 --> 0:27:43.640 So coming up after this break, I talked to Dean 0:27:43.760 --> 0:27:48.399 Snell about rollback from his perspective as a ball engineer 0:27:48.720 --> 0:28:03.800 and manufacturer. This episode of the Frida Egg Podcast is 0:28:03.840 --> 0:28:07.280 brought to you by Club Champion. 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How you spin the ball, 0:28:51.600 --> 0:28:54.960 how you launch the ball, what you are actually doing 0:28:55.040 --> 0:28:57.680 at impact, how far you hit each of your clubs. 0:28:57.680 --> 0:29:00.400 I think these are things that golfers are not very 0:29:00.440 --> 0:29:03.680 aware of, simply because they don't often get on track 0:29:03.760 --> 0:29:06.320 Man and look at the numbers with somebody who really 0:29:06.400 --> 0:29:09.560 knows what they're looking at, and Club Champion fitters really 0:29:09.600 --> 0:29:12.280 know what they're looking at, so They're not only getting 0:29:12.320 --> 0:29:14.440 you new clubs that are going to work for you, 0:29:14.760 --> 0:29:18.240 they're also giving you some awareness about what your golf 0:29:18.280 --> 0:29:21.240 game actually is and what you need out of equipment 0:29:21.360 --> 0:29:24.240 in general. So I think they're really eye opening experiences. 0:29:24.280 --> 0:29:27.520 I would highly recommend them. Frida Egg listeners, this is 0:29:27.560 --> 0:29:30.240 the deal that Club Champion is offering to you. You 0:29:30.280 --> 0:29:33.479 can use the code fried Egg to get fifty percent 0:29:33.560 --> 0:29:36.760 off the cost of your Club Champion fitting with the 0:29:36.800 --> 0:29:40.400 purchase of a club. That's code fried egg. One word. 0:29:40.720 --> 0:29:47.280 All right, back to the episode. So, Dean, when I 0:29:47.320 --> 0:29:51.080 go to snellgolf dot com right now, I see that 0:29:51.200 --> 0:29:54.880 all of your product is sold out. So what's going on. 0:29:55.480 --> 0:29:59.040 Yeah, it's been an interest in year two and a 0:29:59.080 --> 0:30:03.000 half years actually since COVID kind of kicked in golf. 0:30:03.120 --> 0:30:06.640 Golf took off. You know, was booming, and mounds were up, 0:30:06.720 --> 0:30:09.840 memberships up, people were playing, getting a little extra money 0:30:09.840 --> 0:30:12.360 from the government, and uh, you know, we were selling 0:30:12.480 --> 0:30:15.479 we were selling some good golf balls. But what happened 0:30:15.520 --> 0:30:18.560 in golf was there was a big issue with the material. 0:30:18.640 --> 0:30:21.880 There was a big supply chain issue with material shortage. 0:30:22.320 --> 0:30:25.240 That's in pretty much every single golf ball that's in golf. 0:30:26.040 --> 0:30:28.880 So the big companies had a surplus, were they able 0:30:28.920 --> 0:30:30.720 to you know, kind of use what they had in 0:30:30.800 --> 0:30:32.720 house and try to get through it. Some of them 0:30:32.760 --> 0:30:36.080 actually canceled some models and use the material in the 0:30:36.160 --> 0:30:38.480 top of the line models, you know, And us being 0:30:38.520 --> 0:30:40.760 on the smaller side to where we work off of 0:30:40.840 --> 0:30:43.920 purchase orders quite a bit, so there wasn't any available, 0:30:44.160 --> 0:30:46.320 so we were kind of we kind of got limited 0:30:46.360 --> 0:30:49.960 on our supply and that that kept going right through 0:30:50.240 --> 0:30:53.240 twenty twenty two. So for us, what we what we've 0:30:53.240 --> 0:30:55.880 done is we've spent the last the last year and 0:30:55.880 --> 0:30:58.920 a half or so working to UH to try to 0:30:58.960 --> 0:31:03.400 create a different supply chain and in a different way 0:31:03.520 --> 0:31:06.600 to you know, to get golf balls and different levels 0:31:06.640 --> 0:31:10.040 of manufacturing and stuff and create prototypes based on feedback 0:31:10.040 --> 0:31:12.800 from our customers. And we've done that work over the 0:31:12.880 --> 0:31:15.560 last year and a half. So we're getting ready now 0:31:15.560 --> 0:31:19.480 to have a launch of new products and everything's kind 0:31:19.520 --> 0:31:22.240 of kind of new for us, new supply chain, how 0:31:22.240 --> 0:31:25.200 we how we work and UH and we shouldn't be 0:31:25.240 --> 0:31:28.120 in this situation again with the with the point that 0:31:28.160 --> 0:31:30.960 we put in place and we sold out of pretty 0:31:31.040 --> 0:31:33.480 much everything that we had in house. Now with the 0:31:33.520 --> 0:31:37.240 plans for this new uh new launch, which we're planning. 0:31:36.840 --> 0:31:37.720 For April third. 0:31:38.160 --> 0:31:41.880 So April third, we'll have some information coming out with 0:31:41.960 --> 0:31:44.960 all the new products and new new names and everything 0:31:45.000 --> 0:31:46.880 and uh and we should be ready to go. 0:31:47.120 --> 0:31:49.760 Okay, so that's coming up. That's got to be exciting 0:31:49.840 --> 0:31:51.920 to to sort of have been on the bench for 0:31:51.960 --> 0:31:55.080 a while and now, uh, now, now you're finally freed 0:31:55.160 --> 0:31:55.480 up again. 0:31:56.280 --> 0:31:58.400 Yeah, I'm I'm a hockey player, so I feel like 0:31:58.440 --> 0:32:00.000 I've been sitting in the penalty box for a while. 0:32:00.440 --> 0:32:02.600 It's time to time to get out there or to 0:32:02.640 --> 0:32:05.440 either pull the shirt over someone's head and start throwing uppercuts, 0:32:05.600 --> 0:32:07.880 score a couple of goals, and time to score some goals, 0:32:07.880 --> 0:32:08.240 I think. 0:32:09.280 --> 0:32:09.680 Yeah. 0:32:10.000 --> 0:32:14.320 All right, So I'm talking to you today about the 0:32:14.600 --> 0:32:18.719 Model Local Rule news that came out last week, and 0:32:18.880 --> 0:32:22.040 just to give people some context, the USGA and RNA 0:32:22.160 --> 0:32:27.040 proposed a Model Local Rule or MLR, and tournaments can 0:32:27.160 --> 0:32:30.600 use this MLR to require players to play a reduced 0:32:30.680 --> 0:32:35.160 flight golf ball. Now, just to give people some details 0:32:35.160 --> 0:32:38.760 on what the current testing of golf balls is or 0:32:38.800 --> 0:32:42.280 the way that balls are tested to be deemed conforming. 0:32:43.760 --> 0:32:47.479 Right now, balls are tested according to this standard at 0:32:47.520 --> 0:32:50.120 a clubhead speed of one hundred and twenty miles per hour, 0:32:50.560 --> 0:32:54.360 a dynamic club head loft of ten degrees as I understand, 0:32:54.520 --> 0:32:56.480 I think it's a dynamic loft as opposed to the 0:32:56.520 --> 0:33:00.800 actual club loft, and a spin rate of twenty five 0:33:01.080 --> 0:33:05.440 twenty rpm. A ball cannot travel more than three hundred 0:33:05.480 --> 0:33:08.760 and seventeen yards. Now, the test for the MLR ball 0:33:09.320 --> 0:33:12.600 will be clubhead speed one hundred and twenty seven miles 0:33:12.600 --> 0:33:18.080 per hour, loft eleven degrees, spin twenty two to twenty rpm, 0:33:18.760 --> 0:33:21.200 and it still can't go more than three hundred and 0:33:21.200 --> 0:33:25.240 seventeen yards. So they've increased the clubhead speed, increased the loft, 0:33:25.320 --> 0:33:28.600 and decreased the spin, all of which would normally make 0:33:28.640 --> 0:33:31.920 the ball go farther. But the MLR ball needs to 0:33:31.960 --> 0:33:35.480 go the same distance three hundred and seventeen yards under 0:33:35.520 --> 0:33:39.680 those testing parameters, So basically the MLR ball will need 0:33:39.720 --> 0:33:44.080 to have less juice. Now, Dean, from an engineering perspective, 0:33:44.120 --> 0:33:48.760 you're a brilliant engineer. You had a role in creating 0:33:49.320 --> 0:33:53.440 some really famous golf balls, including the titlest Professional, the Titleist, 0:33:53.440 --> 0:33:57.720 pro v one the tailor made five piece ball, I believe. So, 0:33:58.520 --> 0:34:01.280 just from an engineering perspective, what do you think it 0:34:01.320 --> 0:34:05.440 will take to invent this new MLR ball? 0:34:06.160 --> 0:34:08.000 Oh, there's a there's a couple of things that are 0:34:08.000 --> 0:34:10.280 going to have to happen when you when you start, 0:34:10.520 --> 0:34:12.920 the manufacturers are going to have to go have this 0:34:13.120 --> 0:34:16.880 testing completed and find out where the ball is. So 0:34:17.040 --> 0:34:20.000 three seven is the max limit with a with a 0:34:20.000 --> 0:34:22.320 three yard tolerance, so it can go to three twenty. 0:34:22.719 --> 0:34:25.960 That's that's the max. Every golf ball that's submitted today 0:34:26.120 --> 0:34:29.880 that's played on tour, we max out the speed and 0:34:29.920 --> 0:34:32.520 we also max out that distance to the current test 0:34:32.560 --> 0:34:34.960 that we have. So if they're going to add a 0:34:35.120 --> 0:34:38.800 significant amount of clubhead speed and not add any distance, 0:34:39.000 --> 0:34:41.520 pretty much every ball is going to fall over that 0:34:41.920 --> 0:34:44.359 maximum distance limit and it will be illegal to that 0:34:44.440 --> 0:34:48.000 new standard. So each manufacturer is going to have to 0:34:48.040 --> 0:34:50.600 go back now and see where where is it, how 0:34:50.640 --> 0:34:53.120 far further does it go, and how much do they 0:34:53.160 --> 0:34:56.040 have to reduce it. And there's a couple of ways 0:34:56.040 --> 0:34:58.359 that you have to evaluate that. If it's a if 0:34:58.400 --> 0:35:02.160 it's a pretty significant this gap, you might have to 0:35:02.160 --> 0:35:04.799 do it with a combination of the ball design, which 0:35:04.880 --> 0:35:08.080 is adding spin to the golf ball, maybe slowing down 0:35:08.120 --> 0:35:10.200 the ball a little bit with speed, but adding spin 0:35:10.320 --> 0:35:12.919 to it, which is which is a bigger effect, and 0:35:13.080 --> 0:35:16.799 uh and aerodynamics, So you can make the dimples be 0:35:16.880 --> 0:35:19.880 a little bit deeper, you know, and create more drag 0:35:19.920 --> 0:35:22.840 which slows the ball down at those faster speeds, and 0:35:22.920 --> 0:35:25.840 you can also add spin. The problem is when you 0:35:25.920 --> 0:35:28.239 do that, when you're adding spin to the to the 0:35:28.320 --> 0:35:30.879 driver's shot, you're also adding spin to all the other 0:35:30.920 --> 0:35:34.239 shots in the bag. So the players are gonna you know, 0:35:34.320 --> 0:35:37.400 you're gonna make the players be shorter, the long hitters 0:35:37.400 --> 0:35:39.080 are still going to be the longest, and then you've 0:35:39.080 --> 0:35:41.160 got then the players are going to have to really 0:35:41.160 --> 0:35:44.680 struggle with golf balls that have higher spin rates throughout 0:35:44.680 --> 0:35:47.040 the bag. So if you switch back and forth one 0:35:47.080 --> 0:35:50.000 tournament to another using this ball and not using this ball, 0:35:50.400 --> 0:35:53.040 it's not just the driver issue. It's not just Okay, 0:35:53.040 --> 0:35:55.200 we just shortened the ball and the rest of the game. 0:35:55.040 --> 0:35:55.560 Is the same. 0:35:56.120 --> 0:35:58.600 The added added spin to the ball is a big 0:35:58.640 --> 0:36:00.799 difference how on how these player is use the golf 0:36:00.840 --> 0:36:03.959 balls to perform today, especially when you add wind into 0:36:04.000 --> 0:36:07.600 the game. So it's not an easy one step solution 0:36:07.760 --> 0:36:10.000 by saying, Okay, we'll just drop the speed of the 0:36:10.040 --> 0:36:13.000 core and everything's fine. You know, it can really be 0:36:13.080 --> 0:36:17.320 a core speed issue, it can be a spin issue, 0:36:17.320 --> 0:36:20.080 and it can be an aerodynamic issue. If it's an 0:36:20.120 --> 0:36:23.880 aerodynamic issue, the cavities to make these golf balls have 0:36:23.960 --> 0:36:25.520 to be changed for every. 0:36:25.239 --> 0:36:27.800 Single every single ball, and all the tooling has. 0:36:27.680 --> 0:36:29.520 To be changed, and that can be in a very 0:36:29.560 --> 0:36:30.799 expensive process to do. 0:36:31.560 --> 0:36:31.759 Right. 0:36:31.960 --> 0:36:35.360 So, you know, if you were tackling this problem yourself 0:36:35.920 --> 0:36:39.520 and you were looking at the possibilities of increasing spin, 0:36:40.320 --> 0:36:43.920 altering the aerodynamics, or looking at the core of the 0:36:43.960 --> 0:36:46.799 ball and maybe putting some different stuff in there, I'm 0:36:46.800 --> 0:36:49.719 not exactly sure how that would work. What would you 0:36:49.800 --> 0:36:52.680 tackle How would you go about trying to reduce the flight? 0:36:52.760 --> 0:36:55.800 Would you would you look at spin as the primary factor, 0:36:55.719 --> 0:36:58.120 or would you look at kind of all three factors 0:36:58.160 --> 0:36:59.200 that I just mentioned there. 0:36:59.680 --> 0:37:02.680 Well, the simple solution would be to try to slow 0:37:02.719 --> 0:37:03.359 the core down. 0:37:03.400 --> 0:37:04.880 So you try to slow the ball down. 0:37:05.000 --> 0:37:07.880 I don't believe that that's going to get the yardage 0:37:07.960 --> 0:37:11.360 that everybody's talking about the increase that's going to happen 0:37:11.560 --> 0:37:13.080 I don't believe you're going to be able to bring 0:37:13.120 --> 0:37:16.200 that twenty to twenty five yards shorter by throwing the 0:37:16.239 --> 0:37:18.960 four down, So I don't think that would be a 0:37:19.000 --> 0:37:22.000 simple solution. Just change your core formulation, your rubber system, 0:37:22.080 --> 0:37:25.000 make the ball be slower, and then the rest of 0:37:25.000 --> 0:37:27.960 the ball would still have a similar spin even though 0:37:27.960 --> 0:37:30.239 the ball speed was slower. So I don't think that's 0:37:30.280 --> 0:37:34.840 going to be a viable, lower cost solution, So I 0:37:34.880 --> 0:37:36.880 think you're going to have to do it with a combination. 0:37:37.200 --> 0:37:39.680 The second way to do I would address if it's 0:37:39.719 --> 0:37:42.560 a small thing, is if the aerodynamics can change, then 0:37:42.560 --> 0:37:45.880 you can keep your performancey your golf ball similar to 0:37:45.960 --> 0:37:49.560 the rest of the shots besides the driver, that would 0:37:49.560 --> 0:37:51.759 probably be okay. And if you have to add spin 0:37:51.840 --> 0:37:54.600 to the ball, you're really changing the aerodynamics and the 0:37:54.600 --> 0:37:56.960 spin rate of the ball from tee to green, and 0:37:57.040 --> 0:38:00.120 that's a bigger adjustment for the players to have to 0:38:00.160 --> 0:38:03.680 deal with. So obviously the speed would be first. Their 0:38:03.840 --> 0:38:08.960 dynamics is expensive to do, but for some processes. Some 0:38:09.000 --> 0:38:12.440 processes have individual cavities where you have to make you know, 0:38:12.560 --> 0:38:15.200 hundreds and hundreds of them, and they make it dimples 0:38:15.200 --> 0:38:17.920 cavities is a very expensive process, you know. And then 0:38:17.960 --> 0:38:20.960 adding spin to the ball is easy to do with 0:38:21.600 --> 0:38:24.279 the designs inside of the materials we can use, but 0:38:24.360 --> 0:38:26.879 it changes the whole dynamic of the golf ball from 0:38:26.960 --> 0:38:28.440 t de green, not just the driver. 0:38:29.239 --> 0:38:32.759 Yes, and players would be especially sensitive to spin when 0:38:32.760 --> 0:38:36.000 it comes to approaches and wedges, and so that that 0:38:36.040 --> 0:38:38.680 would seem to be a tough thing to get players, 0:38:38.960 --> 0:38:44.600 top players to adjust to. So my understanding is that 0:38:44.680 --> 0:38:50.600 equipment manufacturers have done an experiment kind of like this before. 0:38:50.760 --> 0:38:52.520 And you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I 0:38:52.560 --> 0:38:56.560 believe years ago the governing bodies actually asked a few 0:38:56.640 --> 0:39:01.799 manufacturers to produce a reduced flight ball. Am I right 0:39:01.840 --> 0:39:03.799 about that? Or and and if so, tell me about 0:39:03.840 --> 0:39:04.799 that now. 0:39:04.840 --> 0:39:05.080 Yeah. 0:39:05.080 --> 0:39:08.040 Correct, They did ask some to participate, if you want to. 0:39:08.080 --> 0:39:09.440 I don't think many did, but. 0:39:10.560 --> 0:39:13.080 There was a It was sent out to the manufacturers 0:39:13.080 --> 0:39:15.480 to say, if you'd like to produce it. What they 0:39:15.520 --> 0:39:17.759 wanted to do at that time was to create a 0:39:17.800 --> 0:39:21.400 tournament ball, so I think, And and my memory is 0:39:21.400 --> 0:39:23.640 not as shocked as it used to be either, but 0:39:24.000 --> 0:39:27.719 I believe it was some tournament in Ohio use somebody 0:39:27.800 --> 0:39:29.640 made some I don't know who it was. It wasn't me, 0:39:30.200 --> 0:39:32.440 but they made some farm and they played this tournament 0:39:32.440 --> 0:39:36.160 in Ohio, uh, using this one ball. That's that's a 0:39:36.320 --> 0:39:38.960 that was a completely different scenario to say that there 0:39:39.000 --> 0:39:42.279 would be a tournament golf ball for the PGA Tour. 0:39:42.320 --> 0:39:45.520 That's not out asking manufacturers to make your own balls 0:39:45.600 --> 0:39:49.280 be twenty five yard shorter with whatever performance. There's a 0:39:49.360 --> 0:39:52.240 there's a big issue for me on this the distance 0:39:52.400 --> 0:39:54.799 increases that are causing some of these problems on the 0:39:54.840 --> 0:39:57.920 tour and the elite players. For distance to me is 0:39:57.960 --> 0:40:02.800 four factors in the in the equal equally contribute. The 0:40:03.120 --> 0:40:07.000 golf ball speed has not increased like everybody says they don't. 0:40:07.000 --> 0:40:09.520 They're not made faster, they're not going further because the 0:40:09.560 --> 0:40:11.839 speed at all, the speed is actually the same as 0:40:11.880 --> 0:40:15.000 it has been forever. But we've been able to design 0:40:15.080 --> 0:40:18.080 the balls having spin rate lower. So when when the 0:40:18.080 --> 0:40:20.480 spin rate is lower, the players are now launching the 0:40:20.520 --> 0:40:24.040 ball higher. High launch low spin is adding distance. So 0:40:24.080 --> 0:40:28.360 that's one factor. The second factor is the drivers. The 0:40:28.440 --> 0:40:31.160 drivers the sweet spots have gotten pretty big on them. 0:40:31.840 --> 0:40:34.439 The drivers have gotten longer, and the players are actually 0:40:34.520 --> 0:40:36.520 able to swing, you know, swing the club's a little 0:40:36.520 --> 0:40:41.000 bit more aggressive because they're pretty more forgiven that's added distance. 0:40:41.440 --> 0:40:44.040 The third thing is the players. The players today are 0:40:44.080 --> 0:40:46.799 into fitness and the bodies twist and turn like it 0:40:46.880 --> 0:40:50.160 hurts to watch them sometimes. But when I started in 0:40:50.200 --> 0:40:53.640 golf thirty four years ago, the tour average for ball 0:40:53.680 --> 0:40:56.080 speed was one hundred and sixty miles an hour, and 0:40:56.120 --> 0:40:58.080 these players today hit them one hundred and eighty one 0:40:58.120 --> 0:41:01.400 hundred and ninety miles an hour. That's just ball speed. 0:41:01.440 --> 0:41:04.120 So that's how fast they're hitting the ball, which hasn't 0:41:04.160 --> 0:41:07.720 increased in speed, but they've increased the ball velocity twenty 0:41:07.800 --> 0:41:10.800 thirty forty miles per hour, which is which is crazy. 0:41:10.840 --> 0:41:13.520 So that's the driver and the players. And then the 0:41:13.560 --> 0:41:16.000 third thing is the agronomy when you go out on 0:41:16.040 --> 0:41:18.560 these courses. You see some of these courses in Phoenix 0:41:18.640 --> 0:41:21.000 and in Hawaii where some of the balls are still rolling. 0:41:21.360 --> 0:41:23.799 You know, they get thirty forty fifty yards a row. 0:41:24.200 --> 0:41:25.880 If you come with me and play at my course 0:41:25.920 --> 0:41:28.560 on Saturday, sometimes we can fix the pitch marks on 0:41:28.600 --> 0:41:32.200 the side of our drives as they're softer and they're wet. 0:41:32.440 --> 0:41:35.400 So I studied this years ago at LaCosta, with the 0:41:35.440 --> 0:41:38.440 top ten players in the world played one year to 0:41:38.480 --> 0:41:39.840 the next year. It's when they used to do the 0:41:39.880 --> 0:41:43.040 Tour Championship there, I believe, and it rained one year, 0:41:43.120 --> 0:41:45.520 So just the same course with the same players year 0:41:45.600 --> 0:41:47.720 over year. It was about a twenty two or twenty 0:41:47.760 --> 0:41:51.200 three yard difference in distance driving distance in that week 0:41:51.760 --> 0:41:54.560 when they were there because the course was softer. So 0:41:54.760 --> 0:41:57.960 my personal opinion is, if this is truly a driver 0:41:58.120 --> 0:42:00.640 issue and you're worried about the balls going to fire 0:42:00.640 --> 0:42:04.800 and obsolete courses, you can do two things. Number One, 0:42:04.960 --> 0:42:07.240 if you really wanted to put something in as a restriction, 0:42:07.480 --> 0:42:10.120 the t height of the tee, if you made it 0:42:10.160 --> 0:42:12.279 a half inch or three quarters of an inch, that's 0:42:12.320 --> 0:42:14.520 going to add the spin that we just talked about. 0:42:15.000 --> 0:42:17.759 So just by teeing, just by having a maximum tea 0:42:17.760 --> 0:42:19.560 height of three quarters of an inch or a half 0:42:19.560 --> 0:42:22.760 an inch will take off ten to fifteen yards of distance. 0:42:22.760 --> 0:42:25.640 Because the players can't hit up on the ball and 0:42:25.800 --> 0:42:27.920 launch you that high launch glow spin, it's going to 0:42:28.160 --> 0:42:31.160 hit lower and have more spin, which will shorten the 0:42:31.160 --> 0:42:33.799 golf ball up. And then if you water the fairways 0:42:33.840 --> 0:42:36.440 and shape the fairways at three hundred yards with a 0:42:36.480 --> 0:42:38.800 little bit of rough. That one week they're at your course, 0:42:39.360 --> 0:42:42.640 you'll see that they won't row with fire. They'll take 0:42:42.680 --> 0:42:45.600 a little bit more, pay a little closer attention to 0:42:45.640 --> 0:42:48.600 the accuracy on the course design and layout. Try to 0:42:48.680 --> 0:42:50.960 keep it in the fairway. You know, we watch them 0:42:50.960 --> 0:42:54.560 play the US Open every year, and any course they play, 0:42:54.640 --> 0:42:57.400 it's set up to try to be power. So you 0:42:57.440 --> 0:42:59.719 can set courses up that one week they come to 0:42:59.760 --> 0:43:02.359 you to try to make it power, and it's fun 0:43:02.440 --> 0:43:05.160 to watch them struggle. But it's not fun if you 0:43:05.200 --> 0:43:07.440 did that forty weeks in the season and the players 0:43:07.440 --> 0:43:10.440 will get hurt. So I think if you control the 0:43:10.440 --> 0:43:13.320 t height, you water the fairways, you use a lawnmower 0:43:13.360 --> 0:43:15.080 to let it grow a little bit, and then cut 0:43:15.120 --> 0:43:17.120 it on Monday and let the rest of us play. 0:43:17.520 --> 0:43:20.719 You know, it's a lot easier, cheaper way to deal 0:43:20.800 --> 0:43:23.960 with If you believe that your course is being obsoleted 0:43:24.000 --> 0:43:26.759 by distance, you can't tell the players they can't hit 0:43:26.800 --> 0:43:29.560 it harder. You know, when a big hitter hits the 0:43:29.560 --> 0:43:31.560 ball fire and a short hit it doesn't, you can't 0:43:31.600 --> 0:43:35.120 blame the player for that. So by shorten and shortening 0:43:35.120 --> 0:43:37.640 a golf ball twenty five yards, you're moving back. The 0:43:37.680 --> 0:43:39.960 long hit is twenty five yards, but you're moving back 0:43:40.000 --> 0:43:42.680 the short hit is twenty five yards. And I honestly 0:43:42.719 --> 0:43:46.160 believe that you're going to create a bigger winning percentage 0:43:46.200 --> 0:43:48.759 of the long hitters because hitting an eight iron, in 0:43:48.960 --> 0:43:51.520 hitting a five iron, in with golf balls that have 0:43:51.680 --> 0:43:54.359 more spin on them with affected by the wind, that 0:43:54.480 --> 0:43:56.600 proximity to the pin is going to get bigger and 0:43:56.640 --> 0:43:59.200 you're going to see a big difference in scoring. And 0:43:59.239 --> 0:44:01.560 I don't think anybody wants to watch a guy hit 0:44:01.560 --> 0:44:03.960 a five y and thirty feet put down two put 0:44:04.000 --> 0:44:04.760 give a golf. 0:44:04.560 --> 0:44:05.880 Clap and move on. You know. 0:44:05.920 --> 0:44:08.480 They like to see some excitement in it and have 0:44:08.560 --> 0:44:11.600 players challenge a little bit. And you know, if you 0:44:11.719 --> 0:44:15.000 really think about it, if you wanted to, if you 0:44:15.040 --> 0:44:17.200 wanted to say, we don't want sixteen under to win 0:44:17.239 --> 0:44:20.719 the golf tournament. These par fours and everybody reaches in two, 0:44:20.840 --> 0:44:23.839 no part five. So everybody reaches in two that they 0:44:23.880 --> 0:44:25.920 play four rounds, take two of them and make them 0:44:25.960 --> 0:44:28.479 into par fours that week. You know, now this score 0:44:28.560 --> 0:44:30.800 is posted, will be eight under to win, not sixteen 0:44:30.880 --> 0:44:34.280 under and still playing the same golf course without without 0:44:34.280 --> 0:44:36.040 making any big expensive changes. 0:44:36.520 --> 0:44:40.000 I think that everybody agrees that distance games have been 0:44:40.040 --> 0:44:43.000 a combination of factors. I think that's a common ground here. 0:44:43.080 --> 0:44:46.280 That you know, players have trained to hit the drivers 0:44:46.280 --> 0:44:49.080 and the balls that they've been given, and that the swing, 0:44:49.320 --> 0:44:52.040 the golf swing has changed as a result. And so 0:44:52.719 --> 0:44:55.960 I think that there is broad agreement on that. Where 0:44:56.000 --> 0:44:58.640 there might be some disagreement is how we go about 0:44:58.719 --> 0:45:02.359 finding some kind of solution or even if we need 0:45:02.360 --> 0:45:05.040 a solution. There's a lot of disagreement about that. And 0:45:05.080 --> 0:45:07.719 I think listeners to this podcast know what my perspective 0:45:07.760 --> 0:45:10.200 on all this stuff is. I think I've stated that 0:45:10.719 --> 0:45:15.320 pretty frequently that that I don't think that courses should continue, 0:45:16.080 --> 0:45:18.520 should should continue to need to change as they have 0:45:18.680 --> 0:45:20.560 for you know, the past one hundred and fifty years 0:45:20.560 --> 0:45:23.120 in golf, and that we have to start looking to 0:45:23.239 --> 0:45:27.680 some other possible ways to rain in the distance that 0:45:28.200 --> 0:45:30.960 the golf ball is going. And I greet the MLR 0:45:31.080 --> 0:45:33.960 rule with a little bit of optimism. But what I'm 0:45:34.000 --> 0:45:37.319 really curious to, you know, ask you about, and to 0:45:37.360 --> 0:45:40.560 get into detail about, is what all of this looks 0:45:40.640 --> 0:45:44.279 like from you know, an expert on the engineering and 0:45:44.360 --> 0:45:48.080 manufacturing side, and so we haven't really even talked about 0:45:48.080 --> 0:45:53.440 the manufacturing consequences of an MLR ball, and so I 0:45:53.480 --> 0:45:55.479 wonder if you have any thoughts on what it's going 0:45:55.520 --> 0:45:58.120 to look like or what it's going to take for 0:45:58.400 --> 0:46:04.560 the OEMs to manufacture this new ball alongside their existing lines. 0:46:05.320 --> 0:46:08.239 Well, it's a it's a valid point on the on 0:46:08.320 --> 0:46:11.279 the cost. You know who's going to pay for it. 0:46:11.400 --> 0:46:14.160 The tour players don't pay for golf balls. So if 0:46:14.200 --> 0:46:18.680 you have to spend millions of dollars on creating. 0:46:18.200 --> 0:46:21.040 A new line, you know that can have new tooling 0:46:21.120 --> 0:46:24.120 and new engineering to create this separate line of golf 0:46:24.160 --> 0:46:27.840 balls that you have to make, you know, buy the 0:46:27.880 --> 0:46:31.040 equipment process, pay the people to make them, pack them, 0:46:31.040 --> 0:46:33.719 ship them to the tour, pay somebody to be on tour. 0:46:33.920 --> 0:46:37.000 Give them to the tour players for free. And you've 0:46:37.040 --> 0:46:39.520 got this big expense at the end of this time, 0:46:39.840 --> 0:46:42.680 with this cost to make this ball that's being used 0:46:42.719 --> 0:46:45.240 on tour that the people aren't going to buy because 0:46:45.280 --> 0:46:48.840 it's twenty twenty five yard shorter. So that's a big expense. 0:46:49.520 --> 0:46:53.320 What's going to happen with this proposal is the people 0:46:53.320 --> 0:46:54.879 that buy the golf balls are now going to see 0:46:54.920 --> 0:46:57.920 the price of theirs go up. So they say it 0:46:57.960 --> 0:47:01.080 doesn't affect the average consumer, but it really does. I 0:47:01.120 --> 0:47:03.480 mean there's a cost to it. Unless the USA are 0:47:03.520 --> 0:47:05.680 someone's going to say, hey, we'll give you twenty million 0:47:05.719 --> 0:47:07.920 dollars each and you guys go create this ball and 0:47:07.960 --> 0:47:11.080 supply it to the tour. There's no more contracts for 0:47:11.200 --> 0:47:14.520 tour players to play products and endorse them and then 0:47:14.600 --> 0:47:16.880 sell them based on players using them because they're not 0:47:17.120 --> 0:47:19.840 using the ball that they sell them. It's twenty yards shorter, 0:47:20.239 --> 0:47:23.000 So why would somebody want to buy that? They don't, 0:47:23.080 --> 0:47:27.000 So there's a big financial impact to this thought process 0:47:27.680 --> 0:47:30.879 that says I don't disagree that the players have hitting 0:47:30.880 --> 0:47:33.640 the golf ball and the yardages are getting, you know, 0:47:34.080 --> 0:47:38.920 crazy long. But when Mark maguire stands up in at 0:47:39.000 --> 0:47:42.440 home plate at Fenway Park or Aaron Judge with that 0:47:42.520 --> 0:47:44.600 short left field wall, they don't make them hit from 0:47:44.640 --> 0:47:45.759 the backstop. 0:47:45.800 --> 0:47:46.080 You know. 0:47:46.200 --> 0:47:48.840 But the Bucky Dentz or the Each Rows or the 0:47:48.840 --> 0:47:51.000 short hitters could still win the game with a single 0:47:51.120 --> 0:47:54.280 or a double off the wall. So if you're physically 0:47:54.320 --> 0:47:56.719 able to hit the ball further, and you shorten it 0:47:56.800 --> 0:47:59.399 up twenty five yards, You're still physically able to hit 0:47:59.400 --> 0:48:02.879 the ball further, and you probably increased your chances to win. 0:48:03.280 --> 0:48:05.440 And there's a cost to it, and there's no money 0:48:05.480 --> 0:48:07.279 to it, and someone's going to pay for it on 0:48:07.320 --> 0:48:11.520 the back end. So that's that's my thought process on 0:48:11.719 --> 0:48:14.319 just the proposal of saying it's a golf ball. Now, 0:48:14.400 --> 0:48:17.160 if you put a t height max Of three quarters 0:48:17.200 --> 0:48:19.560 of an inch and you shorten the ball fifteen yards 0:48:19.560 --> 0:48:23.319 without changing anything so now nobody can hit. You're still 0:48:23.320 --> 0:48:25.200 going to move this the long hitters back. You're still 0:48:25.239 --> 0:48:28.480 going to create this issue where the short hitters are 0:48:28.480 --> 0:48:30.680 going to be at a bigger disadvantage because a lot 0:48:30.680 --> 0:48:33.600 of courses have added length. But this is this is 0:48:33.640 --> 0:48:37.040 definitely an elite kind of player, so I agree with that. 0:48:37.520 --> 0:48:40.480 But having the golf ball be the be the answer 0:48:40.600 --> 0:48:43.560 to hit a driver shorter is going to is going 0:48:43.640 --> 0:48:46.719 to create I think a bigger issue financially for the 0:48:46.760 --> 0:48:49.920 players and for the cost to make and for the 0:48:49.920 --> 0:48:53.120 manufacturers to get to the players and then pass on 0:48:53.160 --> 0:48:55.799 to the consumers. Somehow, someone's going to pay for it. 0:48:56.440 --> 0:48:56.839 So Dean. 0:48:56.960 --> 0:48:59.320 I hear you saying that this ball is going to 0:48:59.360 --> 0:49:01.879 be twenty five five yards shorter. That's the number you've 0:49:01.960 --> 0:49:05.520 used a couple of times. The governing bodies have estimated 0:49:05.640 --> 0:49:07.520 that they think that the ball is going to be 0:49:07.600 --> 0:49:11.520 fifteen yards shorter. Now, when you say twenty five yards, 0:49:11.920 --> 0:49:14.320 is that you kind of looking at the new parameters 0:49:14.440 --> 0:49:18.560 and sort of estimating what you think the new distance 0:49:18.640 --> 0:49:18.920 will be. 0:49:20.600 --> 0:49:23.319 I'm saying that you can't say it's going to be 0:49:23.440 --> 0:49:28.040 fifteen yards because that is a launch condition. At eleven degrees, 0:49:28.440 --> 0:49:31.800 at twenty two hundred spin, that's eight that's one shot 0:49:33.200 --> 0:49:35.400 You got one hundred and forty something toward players t 0:49:35.560 --> 0:49:38.600 and up a driver. There's one hundred and forty different 0:49:38.640 --> 0:49:42.280 launch conditions there. So everybody doesn't hit it at eleven 0:49:42.320 --> 0:49:45.440 degrees and twenty two hundred and they'll be fifteen yard shorter. 0:49:45.880 --> 0:49:48.919 Some guys are higher spinning players, they'll be twenty five 0:49:49.000 --> 0:49:51.759 yard shorter. Some guys are lower spinning players, they might 0:49:51.800 --> 0:49:54.279 be ten yard shorter. The gap it's not a it's 0:49:54.320 --> 0:49:58.960 not a a just a measured number that you use 0:49:59.040 --> 0:50:03.000 on a robot test that calculates a distance using that 0:50:03.160 --> 0:50:05.440 three hundred and twenty yard shot that they use is 0:50:05.960 --> 0:50:09.880 using you're lifted your aerodynamic properties with that speed and 0:50:09.920 --> 0:50:12.680 spin and launch. It's not even out on a driving range, 0:50:12.680 --> 0:50:13.320 it's not even. 0:50:13.160 --> 0:50:13.840 On a golf course. 0:50:14.000 --> 0:50:18.319 It's a calculated number based on launch conditions that are 0:50:18.320 --> 0:50:23.640 programmed into it with your ball performance characteristics. So there's 0:50:23.719 --> 0:50:27.920 no definitive one distance answer to this. Some guys might 0:50:27.920 --> 0:50:29.839 be ten, some guys might be twenty twenty five. 0:50:30.120 --> 0:50:31.920 It could be it could be a big. 0:50:31.760 --> 0:50:33.719 Difference, it could be a small difference, but it's not 0:50:33.800 --> 0:50:37.640 a single point difference. That's a one launch condition. Watch 0:50:37.880 --> 0:50:40.400 on tour when they do the track Man system and 0:50:40.600 --> 0:50:43.680 they show the numbers behind it. And yesterday when I 0:50:43.760 --> 0:50:45.560 was watching it, one of the guys hit it one 0:50:45.640 --> 0:50:47.560 hundred and eighty two miles an hour and he was 0:50:47.600 --> 0:50:50.640 fourteen degree launch and twenty six hundred spin. And the 0:50:50.680 --> 0:50:53.160 other guy was one hundred and seventy and he was 0:50:53.239 --> 0:50:56.200 thirteen degree launched with twenty one hundred spin. Well, the 0:50:56.200 --> 0:50:59.239 guy that was slower and speed went longer because his 0:50:59.360 --> 0:51:02.800 launch angle spin with more optimum. So that's what happens 0:51:02.840 --> 0:51:05.760 when you when you have different players hit different shots, 0:51:05.800 --> 0:51:07.920 you can't predict what the distance. 0:51:07.600 --> 0:51:08.080 Is going to be. 0:51:08.640 --> 0:51:11.040 Only that one point that they defined is going to 0:51:11.080 --> 0:51:13.200 tell you what they test that, but it's not going 0:51:13.280 --> 0:51:14.560 to tell you what the tour is going to do. 0:51:15.560 --> 0:51:18.759 Some people in and around the equipment and industry have 0:51:18.840 --> 0:51:23.279 been saying that manufacturers might simply refuse to make the 0:51:23.440 --> 0:51:26.280 MLR ball if this rule in fact goes into effect. 0:51:26.880 --> 0:51:28.520 Do you think that's actually a possibility. 0:51:29.160 --> 0:51:31.359 Oh No, I mean that's a that's a question that 0:51:31.400 --> 0:51:34.200 I would that they that they would have to probably answer. 0:51:34.280 --> 0:51:35.480 But uh, I. 0:51:35.400 --> 0:51:38.440 Mean I I My question would be, if I was 0:51:38.480 --> 0:51:40.600 one of the big manufacturers, is who's going to pay 0:51:40.640 --> 0:51:40.880 for it? 0:51:41.360 --> 0:51:41.600 You know? 0:51:41.920 --> 0:51:44.320 I mean, as a it's a big cost, it's a 0:51:44.400 --> 0:51:48.000 it's a big expense to support these places that people 0:51:48.040 --> 0:51:50.719 don't buy balls. But the people that do buy them 0:51:50.800 --> 0:51:53.359 actually pay, you know, they use the money to pay 0:51:53.440 --> 0:51:55.759 this this this stuff to be done. But now if 0:51:55.800 --> 0:51:57.839 you put all this cost into it and no one's 0:51:57.880 --> 0:52:01.120 going to buy them, then then you you're basically back 0:52:01.160 --> 0:52:03.880 to You're basically back to selling golf balls with no 0:52:04.000 --> 0:52:07.680 endorsements or support or or tour support whatsoever. No one's 0:52:07.719 --> 0:52:10.080 buying them, so that they would have to answer that question. 0:52:10.200 --> 0:52:13.200 I mean, I don't I don't know. You might see 0:52:13.239 --> 0:52:15.680 some people bail out of it, you know, if because 0:52:15.680 --> 0:52:17.960 they're not going to sell them. So what would be 0:52:18.000 --> 0:52:22.000 the value of a top manufacturer to supply this ball 0:52:22.040 --> 0:52:25.239 that they can't sell to anybody? What's the value to them? 0:52:25.280 --> 0:52:27.520 I don't know. But who's going to pay for it? Somebody? 0:52:27.920 --> 0:52:28.120 You know. 0:52:28.440 --> 0:52:29.799 I know it's not going to come out of their 0:52:29.840 --> 0:52:31.680 bottom line profits. 0:52:31.320 --> 0:52:34.960 That's for sure, now, you know, addressing the menu, the sorry, 0:52:34.960 --> 0:52:37.480 the marketing piece of this, which you've mentioned a couple 0:52:37.520 --> 0:52:42.000 of times that you know, in an MLR era, marketing 0:52:42.040 --> 0:52:46.319 a tour ball would be very different. Now from my 0:52:46.480 --> 0:52:48.879 perspective as a consumer, and I admit that I may 0:52:49.040 --> 0:52:53.319 just be weird. I don't look at Justin Thomas and 0:52:53.360 --> 0:52:56.000 say I need to play the same ball that he does. 0:52:56.719 --> 0:52:59.560 I look at Justin Thomas and say he's playing a 0:52:59.600 --> 0:53:03.399 title ball. Titleist must be an awfully good golf ball. 0:53:04.160 --> 0:53:08.040 And then moreover, if I'm, you know, say, a savvier consumer, 0:53:08.520 --> 0:53:10.399 I look at a ball like the one that you make, 0:53:10.600 --> 0:53:14.239 Dean and say, well, maybe I'm not sure if you 0:53:14.280 --> 0:53:15.960 have a tour staff, do you have a tour staff. 0:53:16.320 --> 0:53:21.600 We don't direct a consumer model. Basically an excellent product. 0:53:21.640 --> 0:53:24.200 I've played it, I've played snowballs. They're just as good 0:53:24.239 --> 0:53:27.680 as anything else. I, as a savvy consumer, will look 0:53:27.680 --> 0:53:30.359 at that and say, you know this Dean Snell guy 0:53:30.440 --> 0:53:32.520 knows how to make a golf ball. I bet these 0:53:32.520 --> 0:53:35.440 are pretty good, even if nobody on tour is playing it. 0:53:35.680 --> 0:53:37.399 I'm going to play this golf ball because I think 0:53:37.440 --> 0:53:38.880 this is going to be good for my game. And 0:53:38.920 --> 0:53:41.880 you know what, it's cheaper than the other options. It's 0:53:41.960 --> 0:53:43.840 cheaper than me going and buying a sleeve at the 0:53:43.840 --> 0:53:48.520 pro shop. So in that sense, do you think that 0:53:48.680 --> 0:53:54.040 marketing will be a lot more difficult for tour ball 0:53:54.120 --> 0:53:58.360 makers or will it just be Will it just be different? 0:53:58.440 --> 0:54:00.920 Will it? Will they have to fight new ways to 0:54:01.320 --> 0:54:02.560 market this new product. 0:54:03.160 --> 0:54:05.839 Well, if you break down what you said there into 0:54:05.840 --> 0:54:08.680 two different areas, the first part of your the first 0:54:08.680 --> 0:54:12.279 part of your statement was that you believe that some 0:54:12.320 --> 0:54:15.560 people think, like Justin Thomas plays a Titus ball, So 0:54:15.640 --> 0:54:18.959 I'm playing a Titus ball because it's good. Well, Justin 0:54:19.000 --> 0:54:21.920 Thomas plays a prov one ball, and I buy the 0:54:21.960 --> 0:54:25.840 prov one because Justin Thomas is playing that. So I 0:54:26.200 --> 0:54:30.120 think that's when you look at Titleist total sales, the 0:54:30.160 --> 0:54:33.239 Prov one and prov one X are a huge the 0:54:33.280 --> 0:54:36.560 biggest portion of their sales. People aren't buying the cheaper 0:54:36.600 --> 0:54:40.799 ball from Titleis because they know it's good. Because Justin 0:54:40.840 --> 0:54:43.399 Thomas plays the titles. They're buying the ball that he's 0:54:43.440 --> 0:54:46.120 playing and spending a lot more money to buy it. 0:54:46.719 --> 0:54:49.160 So I don't know if I agree with you on 0:54:50.040 --> 0:54:52.960 because he's playing titles, that's what they'll go buy because 0:54:52.960 --> 0:54:54.959 they could do that and their sales would be higher 0:54:55.000 --> 0:54:58.080 on the cheaper product, but it does. They're buying it 0:54:58.120 --> 0:55:00.920 because that's what he's using. It's a tour ball. It's 0:55:00.920 --> 0:55:04.400 so successful they advertise it. Now, if Justin Thomas plays 0:55:04.400 --> 0:55:07.280 a tie to US pro v one mL Our ball 0:55:08.080 --> 0:55:10.120 and it's and it's sitting on the shelf and he 0:55:10.160 --> 0:55:12.560 wins the tournament with it, do you think someone's going 0:55:12.640 --> 0:55:15.160 to go buy the Title US mL Our ball that 0:55:15.440 --> 0:55:19.440 they put this money into and the value. Do you 0:55:19.480 --> 0:55:21.800 think that would be their number one selling ball anymore? 0:55:21.880 --> 0:55:22.520 Absolutely not. 0:55:23.080 --> 0:55:25.640 You know, it would be some other model that they 0:55:25.680 --> 0:55:29.040 would have, maybe the current prov one that that they 0:55:29.040 --> 0:55:31.239 that they don't use on tour. I don't know, but 0:55:31.320 --> 0:55:34.560 they would have to have a separate model this this 0:55:34.680 --> 0:55:37.840 tour ball would have to be separate that wouldn't be sold, 0:55:38.400 --> 0:55:40.360 you know that that no one would want to buy. 0:55:40.800 --> 0:55:42.799 And I think there's a whole group of people out 0:55:42.800 --> 0:55:46.480 there that buy clubs that the tour supports because they 0:55:46.520 --> 0:55:49.160 see it as being as good and they do it 0:55:49.200 --> 0:55:52.920 by models. Every manufacturer has a Bridge Stone has the 0:55:53.000 --> 0:55:55.800 B series, you know, the tour series, CALLI has the 0:55:55.840 --> 0:55:58.759 Chrome Soft. All these manufacturers have these top of the 0:55:58.800 --> 0:56:01.600 line balls that are then number one selling ball. And 0:56:02.000 --> 0:56:04.040 it's not because it's the brand name and I know 0:56:04.120 --> 0:56:07.120 they make something good and I'll buy something cheaper. It's 0:56:07.160 --> 0:56:09.400 because that's what they see them play and that's what 0:56:09.440 --> 0:56:11.800 they want to play, and that's why there's a model 0:56:11.840 --> 0:56:12.640 name to it as well. 0:56:13.520 --> 0:56:18.200 So I've heard some concerns that this might be taking 0:56:18.280 --> 0:56:22.000 money out of tour players' pockets in the end because 0:56:22.080 --> 0:56:26.080 of this marketing issue that you're bringing up. Do you 0:56:26.120 --> 0:56:30.479 think that's a real, you know, plausible situation here that 0:56:30.480 --> 0:56:33.480 that tour player sponsorships could be worthless because of this, 0:56:33.640 --> 0:56:36.760 and that might be one reason that PGA tour stars 0:56:36.840 --> 0:56:39.319 might resist this new rule. 0:56:40.080 --> 0:56:42.920 Well, yeah, there's got to be one reason for it. 0:56:42.960 --> 0:56:45.759 And god, I also think that you know, they they 0:56:45.800 --> 0:56:48.919 also understand that they're you know that they work hard, 0:56:49.000 --> 0:56:51.960 they're athletes, they fit, they they spend a lot of 0:56:51.960 --> 0:56:53.840 time in the gym. You know, like I said, the 0:56:53.880 --> 0:56:56.160 ball speed that the tour players are hitting today has 0:56:56.160 --> 0:56:58.920 gone up thirty miles an hour because of the players. 0:56:59.440 --> 0:57:01.880 It's not because because of the ball. So they've worked 0:57:01.920 --> 0:57:05.239 hard to get themselves into this position to have to 0:57:05.320 --> 0:57:07.560 have a little bit of advantage to hit it further. 0:57:08.160 --> 0:57:10.799 And you know, now you're going to push them back. 0:57:10.880 --> 0:57:14.600 You're pushing everybody back. So to me, it's it steps back. 0:57:15.239 --> 0:57:18.480 You know, the players themselves are going to lose money, 0:57:18.600 --> 0:57:20.920 There's no question about it. No one's going to get 0:57:20.960 --> 0:57:23.560 paid millions of dollars to pay something that they can't sell. 0:57:23.960 --> 0:57:26.080 And they may they may sell something to wear the 0:57:26.160 --> 0:57:28.440 hat and be on tour and you know, and use 0:57:28.480 --> 0:57:30.840 the clubs and things like that, but the golf ball 0:57:30.920 --> 0:57:34.400 side to it is used on every shot. And if 0:57:34.400 --> 0:57:36.640 you want to play what the tour players play, you're 0:57:36.640 --> 0:57:39.080 not going to You're going to use what they sell 0:57:39.520 --> 0:57:41.400 on the side and not what the tour play is play, 0:57:41.400 --> 0:57:43.840 because that's a different, totally different product that's made to 0:57:43.920 --> 0:57:47.080 be shorter and spin more So, I think there is 0:57:47.080 --> 0:57:49.280 a there is a big loss and financial side to 0:57:49.320 --> 0:57:52.360 the tour. I don't know if the reason why they're 0:57:52.400 --> 0:57:54.160 against it is because of money. It has to be 0:57:54.200 --> 0:57:56.200 part of it, but I don't think it's the whole reason. 0:57:56.240 --> 0:57:58.960 I really think they take pride in being athletes now 0:57:59.000 --> 0:58:02.920 and working hard to be able to have this you know, 0:58:02.960 --> 0:58:06.000 this distance that they that they've in everybody's game distance. 0:58:06.040 --> 0:58:08.600 It's not it's not just the elite tour players have 0:58:08.640 --> 0:58:12.680 gotten longer. The short hitters have gotten longer too. But 0:58:12.680 --> 0:58:15.080 but moving people up and back is just you know, 0:58:15.400 --> 0:58:16.200 water the fairway. 0:58:16.240 --> 0:58:17.080 Try, just try. 0:58:18.400 --> 0:58:19.840 I don't know what they did to the course this 0:58:19.880 --> 0:58:21.960 week and the tournament that we just watched, but I 0:58:21.960 --> 0:58:24.800 think nine or ten under one twenty one hunderd win. 0:58:25.520 --> 0:58:27.919 You know, So if you, if you're a course set 0:58:27.960 --> 0:58:30.200 up for the week that they're there, challenge them a 0:58:30.280 --> 0:58:32.840 little bit on it and soften it up a little 0:58:32.880 --> 0:58:35.800 bit and make the rough just a little thicker where 0:58:35.840 --> 0:58:38.680 it takes takes the bombing guage kind of part out 0:58:38.680 --> 0:58:41.520 of it. You know, I think the scores can be 0:58:41.600 --> 0:58:44.880 brought back a little bit. But uh, but I like 0:58:44.920 --> 0:58:47.400 I say, I don't disagree with with the fact that 0:58:47.640 --> 0:58:49.120 the players hit the ball longer than. 0:58:49.080 --> 0:58:51.200 The courses were made for. I don't disagree with that. 0:58:51.600 --> 0:58:54.760 I just think for me personally, golf is fun right now, 0:58:54.800 --> 0:58:57.280 and it's growing and different players can win that you 0:58:57.360 --> 0:59:00.000 really don't know who they are, and and it's uh, 0:59:00.120 --> 0:59:03.040 you know, people kind of want that one week, might 0:59:03.080 --> 0:59:04.840 want to see birdies and then they come to the 0:59:04.960 --> 0:59:07.840 US Open and they watch them struggle for power, and 0:59:07.880 --> 0:59:10.200 then they go back and play again. So I'd like 0:59:10.280 --> 0:59:12.880 to see them soften them up a little bit during 0:59:12.880 --> 0:59:15.320 the week. You know, they can firm the greens up, 0:59:15.360 --> 0:59:17.680 they can soften the fairways up, they can have the 0:59:17.760 --> 0:59:20.200 rough a little bit higher and shape it a little bit. 0:59:20.440 --> 0:59:21.760 Just try that, you know. 0:59:21.800 --> 0:59:24.440 If the pg but that's a PGA Tour issue, not 0:59:24.480 --> 0:59:27.200 a USGA issue from a rule point of view. So 0:59:27.200 --> 0:59:29.680 that's the course set up, and you see the USBA 0:59:29.760 --> 0:59:31.760 does that during the US Open. They do the course 0:59:31.840 --> 0:59:34.520 setup and it's very easy to make a golf course 0:59:35.040 --> 0:59:38.120 play the power, which they can do. So I think 0:59:38.440 --> 0:59:42.120 there's opportunities there. This distance issue right now is not 0:59:42.360 --> 0:59:44.720 us on a Saturday morning at a golf course. Our 0:59:44.760 --> 0:59:47.000 groups don't even play the back tees, you know, this 0:59:47.120 --> 0:59:51.480 tie is further back, so nobody's really The amateur golfer 0:59:51.560 --> 0:59:54.800 is not adding forty yards to his drives, you know, like. 0:59:55.040 --> 0:59:57.520 The tour players are. But the tour players are doing it. 0:59:57.440 --> 1:00:01.360 Because the fairways of the failways the tour plays at 1:00:01.360 --> 1:00:03.920 are like greens that we play on for average golfers, 1:00:04.320 --> 1:00:07.080 you know, when they roll a lot, you know, and 1:00:06.720 --> 1:00:09.400 they're they're able to hit the ball further obviously and faster. 1:00:09.560 --> 1:00:10.760 So there's a. 1:00:10.680 --> 1:00:13.080 Lot of factors in this, but I just think shortening 1:00:13.160 --> 1:00:16.680 it up fifteen twenty twenty five yards, whatever it ends 1:00:16.760 --> 1:00:20.720 up being, is going to create a lot more issues 1:00:20.840 --> 1:00:23.400 than that one week that they play at the course 1:00:23.440 --> 1:00:24.320 that they're worried about. 1:00:25.000 --> 1:00:27.160 It's definitely going to be complex, And you know what 1:00:27.480 --> 1:00:31.800 I find so interesting about this debate is the different 1:00:31.840 --> 1:00:35.200 perspectives that we as golfers all bring to it. You know, 1:00:35.320 --> 1:00:37.440 you're you're coming at this from the perspective of a 1:00:38.080 --> 1:00:41.160 ball expert in a ball manufactured and also a golfer. 1:00:41.200 --> 1:00:43.760 I don't want to discount that that part of it. 1:00:44.280 --> 1:00:46.720 I come at it more from the perspective of somebody 1:00:46.760 --> 1:00:50.840 who loves golf courses above pretty much everything else. And 1:00:51.760 --> 1:00:54.640 I like when golf courses play firm. I like when 1:00:54.640 --> 1:00:57.640 golf courses aren't overwatered. I like when golf courses don't 1:00:57.640 --> 1:01:00.840 have super high rough where there's a why area in 1:01:00.880 --> 1:01:04.600 which players can kind of strategize and find out different 1:01:04.640 --> 1:01:07.160 ways to attack the whole That that, to me is 1:01:07.520 --> 1:01:11.080 really interesting and a key part of the game. And 1:01:11.120 --> 1:01:13.320 that's the part of the game that that I see 1:01:13.840 --> 1:01:18.400 potentially being protected here. But the way that this is 1:01:18.440 --> 1:01:21.720 being gone about, you know, the exact method of protection 1:01:21.880 --> 1:01:25.640 here find you know, figuring out an MLR ball is 1:01:25.680 --> 1:01:29.840 obviously going to have its own sort of consequences that 1:01:29.880 --> 1:01:32.480 are that are worth thinking about. Even for somebody like 1:01:32.560 --> 1:01:35.919 me who is saying the courses are the most important thing. 1:01:36.520 --> 1:01:39.160 Let's think about that first before we do anything else. 1:01:39.840 --> 1:01:43.520 I would acknowledge that, man, this is creating a real 1:01:43.920 --> 1:01:48.960 set of difficulties for ball manufacturers and ball engineers. Now 1:01:49.000 --> 1:01:52.760 I know that you don't manufacture a tour intended ball. 1:01:52.760 --> 1:01:55.280 I'm not sure that the that the MLR is going 1:01:55.320 --> 1:01:59.880 to affect Snell Golf's business. But do you do you 1:02:00.120 --> 1:02:05.600 see this new potential reality affecting the way that Snell 1:02:05.680 --> 1:02:07.360 Golf goes about things. 1:02:07.920 --> 1:02:08.360 I don't. 1:02:08.560 --> 1:02:11.919 I mean, we've had seven or eight tour players come 1:02:11.960 --> 1:02:13.720 to us and want to play the ball and tour 1:02:13.760 --> 1:02:17.200 and we've respectfully declined it's not our business model. We 1:02:17.240 --> 1:02:20.200 try to keep the cost down and make the tour 1:02:20.240 --> 1:02:24.760 performance be available to all of our customers by director consumers. 1:02:24.760 --> 1:02:27.360 So you know, we've eliminated. 1:02:26.720 --> 1:02:30.120 A lot of the other things that have big expenses 1:02:30.160 --> 1:02:33.240 to them, and we pass that savings back to our customers. 1:02:33.280 --> 1:02:35.840 So it's no cheaper to make the golf what we 1:02:35.880 --> 1:02:37.680 do today than it is to make a tailor made 1:02:37.680 --> 1:02:40.479 of titleist. It's the same cost, but the added cost 1:02:40.560 --> 1:02:43.080 that they have to support that tour is what I'm 1:02:43.120 --> 1:02:46.320 talking about. If our golf ball sell for twenty nine 1:02:46.320 --> 1:02:48.680 to nine nine a dozen and their self for fifty 1:02:48.680 --> 1:02:51.280 five dollars a dozen, and they cost the same to make, 1:02:51.880 --> 1:02:55.320 that's the cost that they're putting into financing the tour, 1:02:55.480 --> 1:02:59.160 Having people on tour, having reps, pro shops markups margins. 1:02:59.200 --> 1:03:02.040 So it's easy to figure out what that is to 1:03:02.120 --> 1:03:06.200 become a global brand, top of the line, you know company, 1:03:06.520 --> 1:03:09.160 which they are. So I mean I look at it 1:03:09.200 --> 1:03:12.240 as I'm also a fan of golf, you know, as 1:03:12.240 --> 1:03:16.040 you mentioned about your the course side to it. The 1:03:17.160 --> 1:03:19.920 issue on the course that you're talking about is the 1:03:20.160 --> 1:03:22.640 is one week that the tour is there. It's not 1:03:22.840 --> 1:03:25.400 an issue on the course fifty one weeks out of 1:03:25.440 --> 1:03:28.600 the year to golfers that pay to play golf, you know. 1:03:28.680 --> 1:03:32.520 So I look at this issue as as let's let's 1:03:32.640 --> 1:03:35.440 keep the game fun, Let's get people to want to play. 1:03:35.880 --> 1:03:39.000 Let's make it easier for people to try to play 1:03:39.000 --> 1:03:42.400 on a game that's extremely difficult, not the PGA Tour level, 1:03:42.640 --> 1:03:44.960 but to the you know, an average handicap I believe 1:03:44.960 --> 1:03:46.120 is somewhere around seventeen. 1:03:46.680 --> 1:03:48.120 You know, single digits are. 1:03:48.080 --> 1:03:53.040 Less than five percent of all golfers. So this is 1:03:53.120 --> 1:03:55.240 this is what we have as a business that we 1:03:55.320 --> 1:03:58.439 want people to join this game that we all love 1:03:58.920 --> 1:04:01.040 and watch. And I a lot of friends that watch, 1:04:01.040 --> 1:04:02.840 and they want to see birdies on the weekend. They 1:04:02.880 --> 1:04:05.960 don't want to see people struggle for power. So it's 1:04:06.040 --> 1:04:07.960 just as a fan, not as a not as a 1:04:08.000 --> 1:04:10.080 guy in the business, but as a fan of golf, 1:04:10.280 --> 1:04:12.560 that's that's my preference of what I want to see, 1:04:13.120 --> 1:04:14.960 and I just see this as a you know, that 1:04:15.040 --> 1:04:17.200 week that that they're at your course. And again, I 1:04:17.200 --> 1:04:19.080 don't know what they did this week at Innisbrook. I 1:04:19.120 --> 1:04:20.640 don't know if it was windy. I didn't see a 1:04:20.640 --> 1:04:23.440 lot of the event, but ten under one the one 1:04:23.520 --> 1:04:27.480 there the tournament, and I'm not sure what happened with it, 1:04:27.560 --> 1:04:30.000 but it wasn't twenty one twenty two hunder. And they 1:04:30.000 --> 1:04:33.000 weren't obsolete in the course by any means. Harbortown for 1:04:33.160 --> 1:04:36.479 years was one of the shortest courses on tour, and 1:04:36.760 --> 1:04:38.880 they're set up that they had when the tour came in. 1:04:38.920 --> 1:04:41.160 I believe like eight to ten under was the lowest 1:04:41.320 --> 1:04:43.360 score average for a long time, and then it went 1:04:43.400 --> 1:04:45.560 to twelve. I'm not sure what it is today, but 1:04:46.080 --> 1:04:47.760 there were there were a lot of a lot of 1:04:48.320 --> 1:04:52.440 places that you know that that can create some excitement 1:04:52.480 --> 1:04:54.960 for golf. Look at the tenth hole at Riviera. Every 1:04:55.000 --> 1:04:57.680 player can probably drive that that green and they were 1:04:57.680 --> 1:04:59.760 struggling to make power a lot because of the way 1:04:59.800 --> 1:05:03.080 it's that up. So it doesn't necessarily mean that we 1:05:03.120 --> 1:05:05.760 have to add yards to courses, but we can change 1:05:05.800 --> 1:05:08.520 maybe a setup a little bit during that week for 1:05:08.600 --> 1:05:11.960 them to play and still and still let the ninety 1:05:12.040 --> 1:05:15.360 nine percent of people that pay for everything for one 1:05:15.440 --> 1:05:18.000 hundred percent of people that pay for everything kind. 1:05:17.800 --> 1:05:18.440 Of enjoy it. 1:05:18.480 --> 1:05:21.880 You know, that's just my personal opinion. I agree with 1:05:21.920 --> 1:05:24.120 you on the hit. They hit it fire and the 1:05:24.160 --> 1:05:27.640 old fashioned courses can't you know, they're hitting it further 1:05:27.720 --> 1:05:29.840 than what they were designed to do. I got that, 1:05:30.080 --> 1:05:33.120 you know, But I just think that the solution that's 1:05:33.160 --> 1:05:36.400 proposed create You mean, you could you could put a 1:05:36.480 --> 1:05:40.440 rule in golf saying you can't use the t you 1:05:40.560 --> 1:05:43.880 just now you've just take them back thirty yards, you know, 1:05:43.920 --> 1:05:48.320 And if you if you do the USGA proposal and 1:05:48.360 --> 1:05:51.200 say let's bring them back to their number fifteen yards, 1:05:51.440 --> 1:05:53.840 does that solve the problem when they're hitting the ball 1:05:53.880 --> 1:05:56.280 three hundred and seventy five yards three hundred and sixty 1:05:56.320 --> 1:05:59.440 yards off the tee, is three fifty a solution? 1:06:00.360 --> 1:06:04.680 Well? You know, I've often wondered during this whether this 1:06:04.800 --> 1:06:07.920 is going to be enough and how quickly very smart 1:06:07.960 --> 1:06:10.640 engineers are going to figure out how to get us 1:06:10.680 --> 1:06:13.560 back to the same place that we were, and this 1:06:13.720 --> 1:06:16.600 is something that the USGA has acknowledged as a possibility, 1:06:17.520 --> 1:06:21.000 and and so that's yeah. I've I've definitely wondered about 1:06:21.000 --> 1:06:24.040 that myself, whether you know, if it's fifteen yards, if 1:06:24.040 --> 1:06:26.840 that's the number that it's reduced by, is that the 1:06:26.880 --> 1:06:30.440 magic number somehow? And I don't think that there is 1:06:30.440 --> 1:06:35.000 is necessarily a magic number. It's it's an enormously intricate problem. 1:06:35.320 --> 1:06:37.479 And I'm not sure that that we're going to solve 1:06:37.480 --> 1:06:40.280 it in one fell swoop. But I think I think 1:06:40.280 --> 1:06:41.800 we can agree on that, you and I, Dean. 1:06:42.040 --> 1:06:43.919 I want to make one more point. What's interesting about 1:06:43.920 --> 1:06:46.960 what you were just talking about? What I mentioned a 1:06:46.960 --> 1:06:49.400 minute ago that the tour average was one hundred and 1:06:49.520 --> 1:06:51.920 sixty miles per hour with ball speed and out. Today 1:06:51.960 --> 1:06:55.760 you see players hitting it one seventy, one eighty seven 1:06:55.800 --> 1:06:58.560 bryce and close to one ninety. And you still see 1:06:58.560 --> 1:07:02.960 players hitting at one sixty eight or so. There is 1:07:03.000 --> 1:07:06.560 your problem. If you're looking for a solution to something 1:07:06.680 --> 1:07:10.040 it there is no solution if the player can take 1:07:10.120 --> 1:07:13.840 a golf ball that's the same ball maxed out speed 1:07:14.160 --> 1:07:16.840 and get hit it thirty or forty miles an hour faster, 1:07:17.000 --> 1:07:19.440 because the player can do that with the same equipment. 1:07:20.360 --> 1:07:23.200 You're not going to solve a distance problem by saying 1:07:23.360 --> 1:07:26.640 what's the right number to bring them back because in 1:07:26.760 --> 1:07:29.360 golf at those speeds, every mile an hour in ball 1:07:29.440 --> 1:07:30.880 speed is about two two. 1:07:30.840 --> 1:07:32.200 And a half yards of distance. 1:07:33.000 --> 1:07:36.680 So someone is thirty to forty miles an hour faster 1:07:36.880 --> 1:07:39.680 in ball speed. Just ball speed, which is which they're 1:07:39.720 --> 1:07:41.960 all playing the same ball. They all play in the 1:07:41.960 --> 1:07:45.840 same ball speed max out. If you're thirty miles an hour, 1:07:46.240 --> 1:07:50.000 you're sixty to seventy five yards ahead of that person. 1:07:50.600 --> 1:07:53.960 So shortening the ball up twenty five yards of fifteen yards, 1:07:54.040 --> 1:07:57.160 you're still going to be sixty to seventy five yards 1:07:57.200 --> 1:08:00.280 ahead of that person. You know, so that you can't 1:08:00.280 --> 1:08:03.120 you can't tell the player he can't hit the ball 1:08:03.240 --> 1:08:06.560 that much faster than the other player. So distance is 1:08:06.600 --> 1:08:08.960 going to always be a challenge. And there isn't a 1:08:09.160 --> 1:08:11.600 there is a there is a The number they're picking 1:08:11.760 --> 1:08:14.440 is a is a ball speed, launch, angle, and spin 1:08:14.760 --> 1:08:18.760 one number. But they forget the fact that Bryson hits 1:08:18.800 --> 1:08:21.679 it at one ninety and some of the shorter hitters 1:08:21.720 --> 1:08:24.839 hit it at one sixty five or one seventy. That's 1:08:24.960 --> 1:08:28.599 forty yards of distance right there. It shortened the ball 1:08:28.680 --> 1:08:31.839 up twenty you know. It's it's basically you're making this 1:08:31.840 --> 1:08:34.519 this guy still be forty yards behind him, but twenty 1:08:34.600 --> 1:08:37.919 yards further back, you know. So that that's the challenge 1:08:37.920 --> 1:08:39.839 that's there, which I don't I don't have a solution 1:08:39.960 --> 1:08:43.200 to that, because the players have been able to be 1:08:43.240 --> 1:08:45.840 able to work their bodies and generate that kind of 1:08:45.880 --> 1:08:48.599 swing speed which generates that kind of ball speed. 1:08:49.000 --> 1:08:50.760 Look, if it were up to me, we'd all be 1:08:50.840 --> 1:08:54.000 going back to persimmon and balls with liquid in the middle. 1:08:54.080 --> 1:08:58.880 So that's I think that that was If if Bryson 1:08:59.000 --> 1:09:01.960 is looking at a at a Persimon driver from nineteen eighty, 1:09:02.080 --> 1:09:04.360 I bet he's not swinging quite as hard at it 1:09:04.400 --> 1:09:07.320 and looking to find middle a little bit more. And 1:09:07.400 --> 1:09:09.880 if the ball's spinning a lot, then then I'm sure 1:09:09.920 --> 1:09:12.599 everything would change. And yeah, I mean I think that 1:09:12.640 --> 1:09:15.360 we all know sort of what happened in the eighties 1:09:15.400 --> 1:09:18.640 and nineties when it came to the new technology and 1:09:18.680 --> 1:09:21.920 golf equipment. It was an amazing achievement on the part 1:09:21.960 --> 1:09:25.280 of engineers to come up with these ideas but it 1:09:25.360 --> 1:09:28.439 definitely permanently altered the game of golf, and we're dealing 1:09:28.520 --> 1:09:31.479 with that now. So Dean, thank you so much for 1:09:31.520 --> 1:09:33.760 coming on the podcast and sharing your perspective. I really 1:09:33.760 --> 1:09:34.400 appreciate it. 1:09:34.720 --> 1:09:36.000 All righty, my pleasure. Thank you. 1:09:36.439 --> 1:09:39.360 One more quick break and Joseph Lamania and I will 1:09:39.360 --> 1:09:43.040 be back with our storylines to track this week in golf. 1:09:52.479 --> 1:09:57.280 All right, Joseph storylines. So anything that you're looking at 1:09:57.479 --> 1:10:00.479 this week in golf that you think could put potentially 1:10:00.760 --> 1:10:02.559 develop and be interesting. 1:10:03.360 --> 1:10:04.040 Absolutely. 1:10:04.680 --> 1:10:07.519 I think there are again, some people like the new 1:10:07.840 --> 1:10:10.599 PGA Tour schedule that's been announced for next year. Some 1:10:10.640 --> 1:10:13.600 people hate it. One of the components is that the 1:10:13.680 --> 1:10:16.479 designated events are going to be limited fields seventy to 1:10:16.479 --> 1:10:18.920 eighty players, and fifty of those spots are going to 1:10:18.920 --> 1:10:21.760 be filled by the previous year's FedEx Cup standing, so 1:10:21.760 --> 1:10:24.719 if you were top fifty, you're into all the designated events. 1:10:25.800 --> 1:10:29.000 One of the massive benefits of configuring things this way 1:10:29.400 --> 1:10:31.280 is that the race to get into the top fifty 1:10:31.400 --> 1:10:34.360 means a lot more now, and so that is something 1:10:34.360 --> 1:10:36.760 that I've already been tracking. Other people have made the 1:10:36.760 --> 1:10:39.160 same point. It's kind of cool to start looking at 1:10:39.160 --> 1:10:42.240 the FedEx Cup standings and appreciate what it means. So 1:10:42.360 --> 1:10:44.240 I would give an example this week of a player 1:10:44.280 --> 1:10:47.519 like Kevin Kisner, who's had a really poor start to 1:10:47.600 --> 1:10:51.280 this PGA Tour season. He's ranked I'm looking it up 1:10:51.320 --> 1:10:53.200 right now, at one hundred and eighty first in the 1:10:53.200 --> 1:10:55.840 FedEx Cup standings. If he wants to get into the 1:10:55.880 --> 1:10:58.160 top fifty at the end of the year, he has 1:10:58.200 --> 1:11:00.840 to take advantage of courses like this fit him well 1:11:01.240 --> 1:11:03.080 and then he's had success on in the past. 1:11:03.400 --> 1:11:05.640 So that's a cool story to watch. It's like some 1:11:05.720 --> 1:11:07.000 of these golfers. 1:11:06.479 --> 1:11:10.920 Like Matt Kocher, Billy Horschel, Kevin Kisner, when they get 1:11:10.920 --> 1:11:12.920 to a course that fits their game, do they take 1:11:12.960 --> 1:11:15.479 advantage of it, because if they don't, they may be 1:11:15.560 --> 1:11:17.280 on the outside looking in at the end of the year. 1:11:17.360 --> 1:11:19.000 And I think it's a really cool storyline to track 1:11:19.040 --> 1:11:21.200 this year in a testament to what the PGA Tour 1:11:21.240 --> 1:11:22.880 has done with the new schedule and. 1:11:22.800 --> 1:11:26.360 Do they take advantage of the match play format and 1:11:26.600 --> 1:11:30.120 some of that opportunity that it presents to players who 1:11:30.200 --> 1:11:32.439 might not be able to beat the top guys over 1:11:32.479 --> 1:11:35.880 seventy two holes, right match play. I'm starting to think 1:11:35.920 --> 1:11:38.839 of a match play tournament as a kind of shuffling 1:11:38.880 --> 1:11:42.200 of the deck on the PGA Tour, really useful shuffling 1:11:42.240 --> 1:11:45.040 of the deck where some people might rise, some people 1:11:45.120 --> 1:11:48.719 might fall, But it's a way to kind of break 1:11:48.760 --> 1:11:51.040 the flow of seventy two hole stroke play and its 1:11:51.120 --> 1:11:54.160 relative reliability and just get in there and kind of 1:11:54.160 --> 1:11:57.519 mess things up. And that's good. A little bit of chaos, 1:11:57.600 --> 1:12:01.120 a little injection of chaos, just like in golf course design, 1:12:01.160 --> 1:12:03.759 in my opinion, can be really good. 1:12:04.320 --> 1:12:07.240 Totally agree, right, And I think a cool thing about 1:12:08.120 --> 1:12:11.559 match play is if you're struggling, you're going home. But 1:12:11.600 --> 1:12:14.360 if you're struggling in the third round of a seventy 1:12:14.400 --> 1:12:16.599 two whole tournament stroke play and you have a couple 1:12:16.680 --> 1:12:19.000 bad holes to finish your round, you can get a 1:12:19.000 --> 1:12:21.240 good night's sleep and go out play a soft course 1:12:21.240 --> 1:12:23.160 in the morning and hope you go low. That doesn't 1:12:23.200 --> 1:12:25.439 exist in match play, so I think that's really cool. 1:12:25.720 --> 1:12:28.639 Also to the high variance point, it is high variance, 1:12:28.920 --> 1:12:30.479 but part of that is the golf course is a 1:12:30.520 --> 1:12:33.840 little bit different. Scotty Scheffler's finished, he's won, and he's 1:12:33.880 --> 1:12:35.559 been runner up here in his two starts. 1:12:35.760 --> 1:12:37.440 It's not a complete crapshoot. 1:12:37.560 --> 1:12:40.879 So I think it has a great balance between chaos 1:12:40.920 --> 1:12:45.160 and rewarding mentally tough play when one players step up 1:12:45.160 --> 1:12:45.920 and hit good shots. 1:12:46.280 --> 1:12:49.400 All right, So my storyline this week is pretty simple. 1:12:49.439 --> 1:12:54.800 Will more equipment companies come out against the model local rule? Now? 1:12:55.200 --> 1:12:57.800 Titleist got a lot of attention this past week, or 1:12:57.880 --> 1:12:59.920 kushnit It's parent company, got a lot of attention for 1:13:00.080 --> 1:13:04.000 putting out a long, very critical statement about the model 1:13:04.000 --> 1:13:07.559 local rule. They're against it. We knew that they've been 1:13:07.560 --> 1:13:11.600 against it. They've been preemptively arguing against this rule for 1:13:11.760 --> 1:13:14.800 years and years now, for decades, and so that was 1:13:14.880 --> 1:13:19.519 no surprise. But Titleist is the market leader in ball 1:13:19.720 --> 1:13:24.880 manufacturing right now. They have a position to defend. They 1:13:24.880 --> 1:13:29.960 don't like the idea of things being disrupted this much. Now. 1:13:30.400 --> 1:13:35.240 Other manufacturers were a lot more quiet. Bridgetone did put 1:13:35.240 --> 1:13:37.960 out a statement of its own, but it was significantly 1:13:38.080 --> 1:13:42.160 more lukewarm. They said, we're concerned about the idea of bifurcation. 1:13:42.800 --> 1:13:45.040 We don't want anything to get in the way of 1:13:45.120 --> 1:13:48.559 golf's success right now. But they also said we're going 1:13:48.640 --> 1:13:51.160 to continue making as good of a ball as we can, 1:13:51.800 --> 1:13:55.160 and so basically they're saying, if this happens, fine, we'll 1:13:55.160 --> 1:14:00.559 adjust to it. The other manufacturers were totally silent, gave 1:14:00.600 --> 1:14:03.599 a complete no comment. They said, we are studying the 1:14:03.640 --> 1:14:07.280 information and the proposals provided we have no further comment 1:14:07.360 --> 1:14:10.599 at this time. Taylor Made did not say anything. Strickson 1:14:10.880 --> 1:14:14.240 did not say anything. Wilson did not say anything. Go Wilson. 1:14:14.960 --> 1:14:19.640 So this is interesting to me because you know, according 1:14:19.720 --> 1:14:24.479 to the common sense position on all this, every ball 1:14:24.520 --> 1:14:27.559 manufacturer is super against the model local rule ball and 1:14:27.600 --> 1:14:29.400 the governing bodies are going to have a revolt on 1:14:29.439 --> 1:14:32.280 their hands. But so far, it doesn't seem like that's 1:14:32.320 --> 1:14:34.040 the case. It seems like there are some sort of 1:14:34.120 --> 1:14:38.439 second tier in terms of the market manufacturers looking at 1:14:38.439 --> 1:14:40.479 this and saying, you know, we're not going to say 1:14:40.479 --> 1:14:42.960 anything about this right now because this could be an 1:14:43.000 --> 1:14:45.679 opportunity for us. So I wonder if that's what they're 1:14:45.720 --> 1:14:48.400 thinking now. If they come out this week and say 1:14:48.560 --> 1:14:50.680 we're against the model Local rule just as much as 1:14:50.680 --> 1:14:53.160 Titleist is, then then that's one thing. Maybe they just 1:14:53.240 --> 1:14:55.840 needed some time to study this. But you know what, 1:14:55.840 --> 1:14:58.479 they've all had a lot of time to consider a 1:14:58.520 --> 1:15:01.759 possibility like this. They all sort of knew this was coming, 1:15:02.520 --> 1:15:04.439 and so I think that they're silence so far is 1:15:04.479 --> 1:15:06.880 really notable. And what I'm going to be looking out 1:15:06.920 --> 1:15:09.960 for is if they do say something this week, and 1:15:10.000 --> 1:15:12.519 if they don't, then I think that there are some 1:15:12.600 --> 1:15:16.920 sort of second, third, fourth place manufacturers looking at Titleist 1:15:17.040 --> 1:15:19.879 and saying we might be able to take that throne. 1:15:20.520 --> 1:15:20.760 Yeah. 1:15:20.800 --> 1:15:23.120 Look, I think if the government came out and said 1:15:23.120 --> 1:15:26.000 that chocolate is bad for you and we're going to 1:15:26.040 --> 1:15:29.720 reduce chocolate consumption in the country, Hershey's would come out 1:15:29.720 --> 1:15:32.559 with a statement that they're displeased. Yes, And that's what 1:15:33.280 --> 1:15:36.040 a kushnet coming out with this statement that they're not 1:15:36.120 --> 1:15:38.880 happy with the rollback. To me, it's the same thing, like, yeah, 1:15:38.880 --> 1:15:42.240 we get it, you're financially incentivized to keep the train rolling. 1:15:42.560 --> 1:15:44.439 But coming out of the statement that you're upset is 1:15:44.560 --> 1:15:47.680 very different than saying you're not going to adapt to it. 1:15:47.720 --> 1:15:50.760 And until somebody comes out and says we're not even 1:15:50.800 --> 1:15:53.439 going to build that ball, then it's all just noise 1:15:53.479 --> 1:15:53.680 to me. 1:15:53.840 --> 1:15:54.720 So I agree with you. 1:15:54.720 --> 1:15:56.400 I'm really excited to see how this shakes out and 1:15:56.439 --> 1:15:59.759 there's going to be an opportunity for a hungry ball 1:16:00.160 --> 1:16:02.840 manufacturer to come up and fill that need. 1:16:03.400 --> 1:16:05.679 All right, Joseph, thank you for coming on the podcast. 1:16:06.080 --> 1:16:07.679 Thanks for having me, Garret appreciate it. 1:16:17.680 --> 1:16:20.400 To This episode of the fridagg Podcast was produced and 1:16:20.600 --> 1:16:23.600 edited by Matt Rushius. 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