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Speaker 1: Calzon Media.

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Speaker 2: Hey everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted to let

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Speaker 2: you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode

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Speaker 2: of the week that just happened is here in one

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Speaker 2: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

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Speaker 2: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

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Speaker 2: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 2: there's going to be nothing new here for you, but

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Speaker 2: you can make your own decisions.

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Speaker 3: Welcome, Dick, It happen. Hear a podcast about things falling

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Speaker 3: apart and them continuing to fall apart. I'm your host,

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Speaker 3: Na Wong with me as James Stout.

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Speaker 4: Hi.

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Speaker 5: Miya glad to hear about what I was going to

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Speaker 5: shit today.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so before we start talking about imperialism, we're starting

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Speaker 3: everything episode with this. Until you people stop, until you

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Speaker 3: stop doing this. It is the year two thousand and

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Speaker 3: twenty five. We are a quarter of a century into

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Speaker 3: this millennium and people are still getting kettled by cops

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Speaker 3: on bridges. I did this occupy in twenty eleven. They

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Speaker 3: did it in twenty eighteen during the Occupy Ice protest.

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Speaker 3: The people did it in twenty twenty, people did it

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Speaker 3: last year. During the dream of the power signing cam lets.

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Speaker 3: People are doing it again this year. Simply do not

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Speaker 3: lead a march onto a bridge, yep.

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Speaker 6: Or a tunnel to AI reasons, we would also include

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Speaker 6: a tunnel.

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Speaker 3: Yes, don't do the tunnel either.

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Speaker 5: Yeah. If there's no side exits, just don't.

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Speaker 3: Yes, here's the thing. The moment you walk onto a bridge,

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Speaker 3: all the cops have to do is take both exits

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Speaker 3: and everyone on the bridge gets arrested. You can simply

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Speaker 3: not do this. If you must do it, you need

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Speaker 3: to like make one thousand percent sure you can hold

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Speaker 3: both sides of the bridge. Yeah, both of them. You

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Speaker 3: need to all both of them. Yeah, and almost certainly

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Speaker 3: you can't. So only you, only you, dear listener, can

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Speaker 3: prevent four thousand more people from getting kettled on fucking bridges.

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Speaker 3: And I'm going to keep starting episodes hockeyboll get it,

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Speaker 3: don't get kettled up bridges until this stop. All right,

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Speaker 3: this is what this has been me as public service

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Speaker 3: announcement of a bridge kettling. Let's get into the nature

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Speaker 3: of imperialism and why Trump's is different. So we've been

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Speaker 3: covering a lot of Trump's sort of I don't know

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Speaker 3: the trade wars, his call for the US to seize

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Speaker 3: the Gozel strip, a whole bunch of stories about the

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Speaker 3: way that Trump is using the power of the American

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Speaker 3: state to do imperialism. And I think it's worth actually

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Speaker 3: taking a second to unpack this because things are probably

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Speaker 3: going to get worse. There is a non zero chance

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Speaker 3: that we effectively start a war with Mexico in the

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Speaker 3: next few months.

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Speaker 5: It's great, it's spanging. Everything's going so well.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, But I want to start with talking about the

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Speaker 3: way that Trump has been using tariffs as as a

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Speaker 3: sort of political weapon and not as an economic tool,

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Speaker 3: but varies very specifically as a political weapon, and how

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Speaker 3: this differs from the previous economic regime, because I think

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Speaker 3: there's been a lot of you know, as the terroriff's

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Speaker 3: the threat of the tariffs go up, in the markets

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Speaker 3: sort of tank in fear of them. There's been a

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Speaker 3: lot of sort of defense of like free trade in

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Speaker 3: ways where I don't think people actually understand what's happening.

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Speaker 3: And to understand how what Trump is doing is different

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Speaker 3: from the stuff that's come before, we need to actually

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Speaker 3: understand what trade is now. When an economist talks about trade.

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Speaker 3: They go, oh, yeah, obviously, trade is when two countries

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Speaker 3: exchange a thing, right, yep, But that's not actually what

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Speaker 3: most of the stuff on earth that is labeled as

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Speaker 3: global trade, that's not what it is, right, Look at

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Speaker 3: like US Mexico trade. We're going to go a bit

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Speaker 3: more into detail about what that stuff is. But do

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Speaker 3: you know what most not most, but you know what

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Speaker 3: a huge portion of US Mexico trade is. It is

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Speaker 3: the same company, the same company moving an auto part

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Speaker 3: from one side of the border to the other, back

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Speaker 3: and forth across the body.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I suppos got to say.

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Speaker 3: Yes, back and forth. Right, So it's a lot of

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Speaker 3: different people being paid different wages can make the same thing.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, or if someone paid lower wages can make it. Yeah,

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Speaker 6: someone paid more con Q see it and then they

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Speaker 6: can send.

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Speaker 3: It back yep.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, very very common.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And this is actually a real substantive problem with

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Speaker 3: the way that I think everyone thinks about trade, because what

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Speaker 3: is happening here, and this is an argument that the

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Speaker 3: anti globalization movement used to make. You know, David Graeber

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Speaker 3: like makes this argument a lot, and they're right, which

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Speaker 3: is that most things that we think of as quote

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Speaker 3: unquote global trade are just a single corporation moving a

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Speaker 3: resource around the world so that they can produce something.

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Speaker 6: Yea and exploit labor at some impossible exploitation rate.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know. And this means that using nation states

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Speaker 3: as a way to understand trade is an absolutely terrible

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Speaker 3: way to think about global economy. Right there, there are

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Speaker 3: some things we're thinking about specifically nation state trade, Like

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Speaker 3: trade is important because you know, even even the same

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Speaker 3: corporation moving goods around, right, that does contribute to how

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Speaker 3: much foreign currency a country, right right, And so okay,

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Speaker 3: there's things like balance of payments where if you run

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Speaker 3: out of it, if you're a country and you run out

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Speaker 3: of American dollars, suddenly you can't employ like fuel anymore

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Speaker 3: in your country, like explodes, And that's a very common

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Speaker 3: way that like this happens in Trilanck, for example, pretty recently.

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Speaker 3: This is a way for your economy to blow up.

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Speaker 3: But that's kind of an edge case in terms of

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Speaker 3: how global trade actually operates. But the problem is that

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Speaker 3: it is to the advantage of the ruling class for

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Speaker 3: you and everyone else to think about trade as something

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Speaker 3: that's like a war between you and the country next

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Speaker 3: to you instead of a corporation. Like fucking over everyone

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Speaker 3: involved in this entire thing. Now, there's a pretty interesting

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Speaker 3: book that I read recently called Border Economies Cities Bridging

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Speaker 3: the US Mexico Divide by James Greber Gerber Nicks Gerber, Okay,

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Speaker 3: And one of the things he points out is that

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Speaker 3: the two largest trade relations between any country, any two

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Speaker 3: countries on Earth are the US in Mexico and the

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Speaker 3: US in Canada. And those are the countries with the

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Speaker 3: highest tariffs that trumbles attempting to apply. Yeah, and it's

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Speaker 3: worth actually understanding what this does by looking at what

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Speaker 3: actually is traded between, for example, the US and Mexico.

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Speaker 3: And the place I want to start is that one

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Speaker 3: of the largest kinds of goods is moved from from

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Speaker 3: Mexico to the US is computer equipment. And nobody fucking

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Speaker 3: talks about this ever, No one, like zero fucking people

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Speaker 3: talk about this. I am convinced this is because of racism.

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Speaker 3: But Mexico is a huge sort of like assembly place

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Speaker 3: for a whole bunch of things like monitor screens, like

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Speaker 3: computer equipment in general, and a lot of that stuff

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Speaker 3: comes into the US. And there's also you know, the thing,

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Speaker 3: the thing that we started this episode on. That's I

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Speaker 3: think the thing I gets talked about the most now

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Speaker 3: is transportation equipment, right, And this is a combination of

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Speaker 3: consumer vehicles and also like heavy duty cargo trucks, which

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Speaker 3: are unbelievably important for the maintenance of the American economy,

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Speaker 3: right of the entire global economies. Like having these trucks

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Speaker 3: is a sort of vital infrastructure thing for the United States.

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Speaker 3: You can move stuff around a lot of that cost

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Speaker 3: in Mexico. And then also like a lot of it

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Speaker 3: is like whole cars that are like like finished assembly

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Speaker 3: like in Mexico, and they get shipp across the border

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Speaker 3: and there's a lot of things there. And these are

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Speaker 3: also like all the same international companies that work in

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Speaker 3: the US. So it's like Toyotas like Konda.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean these are your American trucks often, right,

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Speaker 6: or like.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, four does this too? Yeah, what's GM

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Speaker 3: now Stalores.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, like Chevy GM like these as well as

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Speaker 6: like Toyota.

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Speaker 5: Toyota I think has a big planet.

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Speaker 6: I forget exactly where, but along the board is somewhere

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Speaker 6: if I recall correctly.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, this is extremely common Yeah. And what this is, right, like,

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Speaker 3: this is multinational capitalist companies who are moving their products

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Speaker 3: across the border. Yeah, and this gets counted as Mexico

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Speaker 3: doing trade. You know. One of the things in one

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Speaker 3: of the questions in this book is about why Mexico's

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Speaker 3: economy never had the kind of economic bump that China

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Speaker 3: did from the amount of industrial production if you look

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Speaker 3: at like the East Asian tigers, right right, And I

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Speaker 3: think part of that is actually something that is not

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Speaker 3: mentioned in the book, which is if if you look

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Speaker 3: at the East Asian economies that that develop their economies

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Speaker 3: that you're talking like your South Korea's, et cetera, cedule

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Speaker 3: like a lot of those countries, like Japan, there was

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Speaker 3: a lot of US military investment there in a way

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Speaker 3: that's just not true of Mexico. Like Mexico is not

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Speaker 3: like a place where you offshore you're supplying your supplies

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Speaker 3: to because you need to move stuff to you know,

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Speaker 3: fight the war in Vietnam. But you know, one of

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Speaker 3: the other reasons is that, Yeah, Okay, so like where

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Speaker 3: is all the profit from the international trade going. It's like, well,

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Speaker 3: it's going to a bunch of American and Japanese car companies. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: because it's it's those those multinationals are the people who

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Speaker 3: actually reap all of the benefits.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, to a degree, like post NAFTA, right, post ninety four,

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Speaker 6: it has created a class of people in Mexico who

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Speaker 6: have benefited from it, but it has it has not

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Speaker 6: lifted up like like the average income. Right, It's created

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Speaker 6: a greater disparity of income than at any point.

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Speaker 7: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, previous to that.

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Speaker 6: And you'll hear people I was talking to us Ran

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Speaker 6: about this yesterday in Tijuana, like how like what NAFTA did,

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Speaker 6: Like now, if you look at nineteen ninety four, I

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Speaker 6: think it's a really good example of what you're talking

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Speaker 6: about of Like, yeah, we opened up that border to

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Speaker 6: international companies to do tariff free back and forth, right,

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Speaker 6: but we didn't open it up to people.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 6: At the same time, we had Operation Gatekeeper, right like

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Speaker 6: enforced much harsher border enforcement. And the two things in

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Speaker 6: parallel really kind of indicate, yeah, what the free trade

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Speaker 6: is going for.

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Speaker 7: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And you know, and this is another old anti

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Speaker 3: globalization thing like we ever talks about. This is like yeah,

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Speaker 3: free like free trade is about the free movement of

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Speaker 3: capital and the unfree movement of people, right, Yeah, so

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Speaker 3: it's about locking people down in place so you can

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Speaker 3: like you can you can dictate wages to them, and

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Speaker 3: then moving capital around the world to avoid them exactly.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and we're gonna get into this more in a second,

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Speaker 3: but I want to talk about some you know, some

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Speaker 3: of the other things that are that are exported from

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Speaker 3: Mexico fruits, vegetables, alcohol, or like huge exports.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And then also and this is something that I don't

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Speaker 3: think is people don't understand what's happening very well. Is

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Speaker 3: there's a lot of oil from Mexico that's shipped to

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Speaker 3: the US. But the thing that's happening there, and this

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Speaker 3: is the thing that's very weird about the oil industry,

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Speaker 3: is that the refinery facilities are not in the same

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Speaker 3: country as the extraction facilities a lot of the time.

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Speaker 3: So this oil is getting shipped around because they don't

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Speaker 3: have the refinery facilities to like refine the specific kind

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Speaker 3: of like crude oil or whatever that they're extracting. So like, yeah,

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Speaker 3: it's again one of these situations where it's not really

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Speaker 3: like Mexico is sending its oil to the US. It's

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Speaker 3: like I mean kind of right, that's like one of

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Speaker 3: the more direct issh ones, But largely what's happening is

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Speaker 3: that like again like it's an oil company moving stuff

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Speaker 3: to you know, moving stuff around to do refinement of

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Speaker 3: it so they can sell it. Now There's there's been

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Speaker 3: some other stuff happening with Mexico that's a kind of

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Speaker 3: reaction to Trump's previous thing. And I think the extent

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Speaker 3: of this has been overblown to some extent, but a

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Speaker 3: lot of very low end manufacturing stuff has been leaving

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Speaker 3: China for a long time. This is one of my

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Speaker 3: media things on the show, is that this has been

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Speaker 3: happening for a while because labor price has been rising

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Speaker 3: in China and one of the places that these things

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Speaker 3: went to is Mexico. So there's been a lot of

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Speaker 3: like direct investment from trying to et cetera, et cetera,

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Speaker 3: and all of these things. You know, like these these

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Speaker 3: these kind of movements. I'm talking about them because these

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Speaker 3: kind of like seismic global economic shifts right of the

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Speaker 3: kind that we're going to be see are driven by

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Speaker 3: a lot of things, you know, I mean this stuff

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Speaker 3: like currency valuations, like local tax laws, like state corporate

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Speaker 3: planning policies like demands or just blah blah blah blah blah.

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Speaker 3: But one of the single most important things is the

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Speaker 3: state of class struggle in a country and what effect

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Speaker 3: that has on wages or like, you know, like straight

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Speaker 3: up uprisings.

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Speaker 5: Right.

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Speaker 3: The geographer David Harvey, he gets credit for popularizing the

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Speaker 3: term the spatial fix, though other people were already using it,

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Speaker 3: and I don't like his work much, but he did.

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Speaker 3: He is the guy who gets credited with this. He describes,

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Speaker 3: you know, the sort of free trade regime that that

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Speaker 3: persisted roughly through like now. I mean it was it

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Speaker 3: was taking shape in sort of the eighties, like the

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Speaker 3: eighties through like roughly now, as the spatial fix for

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Speaker 3: declining profitability. Right, you know what else has declining profitability? Well?

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Speaker 5: I don't know.

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Speaker 6: The worst things get the more people are listen to

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Speaker 6: our podcast, and you can say that.

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Speaker 3: We are back. Okay, So let's talk about this, this

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Speaker 3: sort of declining profitability and the fix that capitalism sort

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Speaker 3: of finds fit this, right. You know, through the seventies

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Speaker 3: there's this sort of spiraling unemployment and inflation and the

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Speaker 3: economy is sort of going to shit. And it's happening

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Speaker 3: everywhere because they're sort of like structural overcapacity and manufacturing.

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Speaker 3: And the solution to this is a spatial fix, right,

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Speaker 3: which is destroying some manufacturing capacity and just moving it

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Speaker 3: to other places. Yeah, and you know, and this is

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Speaker 3: this is sort of what James was talking about earlier, right.

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Speaker 3: The goal is to sort of weaken the power of

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Speaker 3: the working class by locking people down into their countries

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Speaker 3: and then moving capital to poorer countries, the weaker labor

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Speaker 3: protections and also a weaker level of sort of like

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Speaker 3: workers organization, right.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, and then it leaves like the previously well organized workers.

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Speaker 6: Like if you look at the industries and the places

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Speaker 6: where my grandparents come from, the dog workers and minors, right,

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Speaker 6: those are not really jobs that are employing large numbers

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Speaker 6: of people in the UK anymore. And like as a result,

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Speaker 6: those working class towns are just destitute, you know. So

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Speaker 6: that previously thriving a well organized working class that we

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Speaker 6: had northern England, it's left kind of like it has

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Speaker 6: to relocate or reorganize, right, and it destroys those like

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Speaker 6: nexuses of working class power that existed in Britain up

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Speaker 6: until the eighties.

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Speaker 5: With a minus strike, right, Yeah, and.

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Speaker 3: This was this was done deliberately, yah, right. I mean

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Speaker 3: there there's always a debate in the literature about to

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Speaker 3: what extent, like neoliberalism was like planned, or to what

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Speaker 3: extent it was you know, a sort of reaction to

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Speaker 3: a bunch of crazies. But specifically this kind of like

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Speaker 3: offshoring and the container ships have been part of this,

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Speaker 3: but like this specific kind of thing, and even the

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Speaker 3: transition cold oil was like was a very deliberate thing

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Speaker 3: done by like done by sort of American and British

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Speaker 3: politicians in order to sort of break the power like

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Speaker 3: miners unions. And you know, one of the major places

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Speaker 3: that this went obviously like a lot of these things

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Speaker 3: go to Mexico. The sort of first round of these

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Speaker 3: go to like the original like Asian tiger economies I

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Speaker 3: was talking about, Well, I mean places like it, like

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Speaker 3: Indonesia too, with a lot of those economies sort of

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Speaker 3: like Thailand, those commies kind of blew up in the nineties. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: but you know, one of the largest, most important ones

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Speaker 3: was China. And you know it's important to sort of

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Speaker 3: remember I've talked about this on the show before. A

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Speaker 3: lot of this is also the product of Tianoman Square,

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Speaker 3: because the thing that's important to remember about Tianneman is

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Speaker 3: that contra both sort of liberal histories of Tiannemen and

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Speaker 3: also the sort of CCP line. Most of the people

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Speaker 3: who died at Tannama were workers, right, Most people who

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Speaker 3: were executed after Wridge were workers. They were like students died,

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Speaker 3: but it was mostly workers who were killed. And a

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Speaker 3: lot of what happened there was that, you know, Tanneman

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Speaker 3: was like the last time that China's like trade union federation,

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Speaker 3: which is like now such a joke that it's like

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Speaker 3: it's genuinely a subject of academic debate and discussion as

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Speaker 3: to whether you can even literally consider it a trade union.

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Speaker 3: Like that's that's how fuck it is. And the last

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Speaker 3: time that Chinese trade unions took a political stand was

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Speaker 3: in favor of the Tianeman protests. And then the army

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Speaker 3: shows up and just like like slaughters their base. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: And what this does is it breaks the old Chinese

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Speaker 3: working class, right, It breaks the alliance with the students

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Speaker 3: that they'd had that was you know, and that was

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Speaker 3: a durable political force dating back to like the nineteen twenties, right,

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Speaker 3: And it breaks this extremely militant, well organized Chinese urban

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Speaker 3: working class and replaces them with a more exploitable and

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Speaker 3: less organized like migrant working class yea. And that is

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Speaker 3: the class that like to this day right now is

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Speaker 3: like the engine of global capital or like those like

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Speaker 3: three hundred million migrant workers yep.

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Speaker 5: And they can be in different parts of the world,

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Speaker 5: right like the other way.

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Speaker 3: The three hundred million number, that's just the microtworkers in China, Jesus.

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Speaker 3: To be clear, there are a lot more internationally. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: but yeah, China's miketworking population is like almost the size

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Speaker 3: of the US. It's like the fourth largest country in

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Speaker 3: the world just by like itself.

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Speaker 5: It's yeah, that's mad.

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Speaker 6: I was just thinking of today, like the scam compounds

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Speaker 6: which exists on the border between me and Mah and Thailand,

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Speaker 6: like they actually Thailand.

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Speaker 5: Just cut power off to them today.

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Speaker 6: I mean, I can see that the strategy there, but

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Speaker 6: it's just going to end up hurting the people who

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Speaker 6: are in those compounds more of course it is. Yeah,

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Speaker 6: of course, those people who are in those compounds used

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Speaker 6: to be able to escape and go to places where

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Speaker 6: they could like get back to their lives, right, like

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Speaker 6: be re taken care of, and of course that's well

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Speaker 6: funded by USA, so they don't exist as of this week,

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Speaker 6: which is pretty brutal. But like, yeah, these people, right,

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Speaker 6: these these migrant workers who come from all over the

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Speaker 6: world hoping for a chance that the things that capitalism

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Speaker 6: have promised them are the people who have to be

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Speaker 6: exploited so that people in wealthy countries can.

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Speaker 5: Have their treats.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and those workers are the basis of monoglobal capitalism, right,

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Speaker 3: Like you know, like those Chinese workers for example, like

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Speaker 3: it it is illegal for them to form an independent union.

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Speaker 3: If you try to form an independent union, you will

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Speaker 3: go to prison so fast that like though we dust

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Speaker 3: clouds like.

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Speaker 5: Hey and like Wiley Coyote will take you to prison.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Like even trying to get your union to like

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Speaker 3: do something like trying to have your own independent people

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Speaker 3: elected to your to that union, like canon will get

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Speaker 3: you arrested and like and even like short, Chinese labor

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Speaker 3: oppression like is pretty intense. But it's like you know

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Speaker 3: that we're also talking about countries like Columbia. It's like, well, yeah, okay,

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Speaker 3: so what happens to union organizers in Columbia's like they

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Speaker 3: get being shopped by paramilitaries with machine guns. Right, And

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Speaker 3: that's that's that's what the sort of spatial fix was, right,

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Speaker 3: was moving jobs to places where the ruling classes sort

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Speaker 3: of control was more firm and their ability to use

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Speaker 3: violence was higher. Yeah, And so this is what the

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Speaker 3: American imperial system sort of had been, right. It's based

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Speaker 3: on American capital flowing around the world. And this is

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Speaker 3: also like international capital too, right, Like we've literally been

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Speaker 3: talking about like Japanese corporations right doing like the same shit, right,

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Speaker 3: But you know, it's like international capital flowing around the world,

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Speaker 3: extracting resources and labor from other countries and accumulating it

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Speaker 3: in American corporations like that. That's what free trade is.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And it's also you know, secondarily, right, it is a

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Speaker 3: debt system. It's based on forcing countries to like pay

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Speaker 3: back loans that were taken out by dictators. Gogurid de

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Speaker 3: Draber's debt last five thousand years, it's very good. But yeah,

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Speaker 3: it's based on like turning entire countries into just debt

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Speaker 3: servicing engines, where like all of the wealth that is

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Speaker 3: produced by entire nation is just going to like pay

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Speaker 3: debts to bank of America. Yeah, And you know, the

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Speaker 3: thing about this is that this is actually a very

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Speaker 3: very efficient model of empire. It's one of the most

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Speaker 3: sophisticated imperial systems that the world has ever seen.

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Speaker 8: Right.

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Speaker 3: It works extremely well and makes the US an unbelievable

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Speaker 3: amount of money. It protects global capitalism, and the people

404
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Speaker 3: currently running it don't want it to work like that.

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Speaker 3: Now do you know who else? It doesn't want the

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Speaker 3: current system to work like it does because they can

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Speaker 3: make more money.

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Speaker 5: I can guess it's.

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Speaker 3: The products and services for this point, excited to hit

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Speaker 3: which one we get?

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Speaker 6: You know, it could be it could be anything. I

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Speaker 6: really at this point, who knows?

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Speaker 3: We are back, So we've entered I guess what you

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Speaker 3: could call the phase of mask off imperialism. US imperialism

415
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Speaker 3: usually at least sort of like war human face. And

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Speaker 3: and it did it for good reason, right you know,

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Speaker 3: Ronald Reagan did not give a single ship about democracy

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Speaker 3: and human rights, right like like you know, and this

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Speaker 3: is this has been true in the US for like

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Speaker 3: ages and ages and ages, right you know that, like

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Speaker 3: they prop up right wing military dirtatorship constantly. But the

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Speaker 3: thing is, democracy and human rights are things that like

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Speaker 3: people like and so you know, it was it's it's

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Speaker 3: a weapon that he and and his sort of brand

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Speaker 3: of conservatives, like anti communist conservatives like wielded it again communism,

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Speaker 3: and it was a very very powerful ideological weapon because

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Speaker 3: if if if your choice ceases to be between like

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Speaker 3: communism and capitalism, and your choice is now between like

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Speaker 3: do you want to live in a dictatorship, but do

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Speaker 3: you want to live in a democracy? Like that's a

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Speaker 3: very different question, and it's it's a very very important

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Speaker 3: question for sort of how how the Cold War was

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Speaker 3: won and how international power is wielded, right, because there's

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Speaker 3: there's always been an illusion that there's an international community

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Speaker 3: in that countries are like working together and and this

436
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Speaker 3: is this is a very very powerful ideological thing, you know,

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Speaker 3: I mean, and this is something like you live through this,

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Speaker 3: like God, it probably listen to you didn't leave to

439
00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:40,000
Speaker 3: this now, dear God. But like like the Iraq War, right,

440
00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:43,080
Speaker 3: the US didn't unilaterally invader Rock now I was called

441
00:20:43,119 --> 00:20:46,480
Speaker 3: the quote unquote Coalition of the Wilding and included like

442
00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:50,080
Speaker 3: like they dragged Australia in the war by threatening to

443
00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:54,960
Speaker 3: like destroy their like milk shipping contracts with the Iraqi government, Like,

444
00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:55,720
Speaker 3: so you.

445
00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:58,320
Speaker 6: Know, yeah, you had all kinds of people running around

446
00:20:58,359 --> 00:21:00,159
Speaker 6: in a rock for a while then, I guess, yeah,

447
00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:02,280
Speaker 6: obviously the United Kingdom played a big role in it,

448
00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:05,240
Speaker 6: like an outside troll, given being a relatively small country.

449
00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:07,199
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know, and this, this, this is the

450
00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:09,840
Speaker 3: way that you do. You know, even just overtly straight

451
00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:12,680
Speaker 3: up imperialist stuff like it, like invading a rock, right,

452
00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:17,000
Speaker 3: was still done under the auspices of like multinational like coalitions.

453
00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:17,320
Speaker 5: Yep.

454
00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:20,440
Speaker 3: And the thing about different about Trump is Trump doesn't

455
00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:22,879
Speaker 3: give a fuck about any of that, right, absolutely not.

456
00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:26,959
Speaker 3: He has turned on Rob Ford, a man who is

457
00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:30,160
Speaker 3: like boldly answers the question what if Trump smoke crack

458
00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:33,320
Speaker 3: like that is Rob Ford, Like he's he's turning on

459
00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:35,639
Speaker 3: his allies, like people people like right wingers who should

460
00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:38,159
Speaker 3: be his allies in Canada, right, who are exactly the

461
00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:41,080
Speaker 3: kind of people who you would expect to do sort

462
00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:44,959
Speaker 3: of like right wing multilateral interventions in countries, right. Yeah,

463
00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:47,520
Speaker 3: and you know he is caused with with his like

464
00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:49,320
Speaker 3: threat to put tariffs on like, he's caused these people

465
00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:51,040
Speaker 3: to become anti American. And this is the same thing

466
00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:53,880
Speaker 3: with Mexico. Right, even the sort of like the nominally

467
00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:57,400
Speaker 3: center left governments in Mexico like have cooperated with American imperism.

468
00:21:57,440 --> 00:21:59,399
Speaker 3: But Trump doesn't want to fucking do that anymore. He

469
00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:03,639
Speaker 3: wants to run everything just very purely and very openly

470
00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:05,200
Speaker 3: as as an American empire.

471
00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:08,520
Speaker 6: Yeah, Like America's always bullied Mexican. Right when we talk

472
00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:11,360
Speaker 6: about the deployment of troops to the border. Biden absolutely

473
00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:14,119
Speaker 6: bullied Amlo into into bringing those troops to the border

474
00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:17,000
Speaker 6: because they came before Donald Trump even came into office.

475
00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:20,200
Speaker 6: But now Donald Trump's just doing it on true social yeah,

476
00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:23,320
Speaker 6: like it's it's it's kind of different. Or Panama fuck, Like,

477
00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:27,120
Speaker 6: you know, I was in Panama September of twenty four

478
00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:30,439
Speaker 6: and I went to the Canal Museum, and Panama like

479
00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:32,880
Speaker 6: is very proud of its history of independence.

480
00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:33,080
Speaker 9: Right.

481
00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:36,639
Speaker 6: It's relatively short, yeah, and hard earned and paid for

482
00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:39,560
Speaker 6: in blood. But like, yeah, I traveled. I'm a US

483
00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:41,120
Speaker 6: City cinema traveling you. No one gave me any shit.

484
00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:41,520
Speaker 5: It was fine.

485
00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:43,959
Speaker 6: Everyone's very nice to me. Now the burning American flags

486
00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:45,160
Speaker 6: in Panama City, like.

487
00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:48,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, because Croup is trying to take the Panama

488
00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:50,040
Speaker 3: canal back and before we get into like you know,

489
00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:51,760
Speaker 3: I mean, I guess we can get into hear some

490
00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:53,280
Speaker 3: of the stuff that he's doing. Right, he's pulled out

491
00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:56,040
Speaker 3: of the International Criminal Court and it's putting sanctions on it.

492
00:22:56,119 --> 00:22:58,400
Speaker 3: He has been trying to use the sanctions that he's

493
00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:01,080
Speaker 3: been threatened to apply to Canada. Who get Canada to

494
00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:05,680
Speaker 3: join the US? Like he is trying to conquer Canada, Right, Yeah,

495
00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:08,000
Speaker 3: he's he's been trying to He's been trying to force

496
00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:10,560
Speaker 3: the government of Denmark to buy Greenland.

497
00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:13,199
Speaker 6: Sell Greenland, right, Like he wants to purchase greenland from there.

498
00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:15,639
Speaker 3: Yeah, he wants to buy Greenland. Yeah, there was. There

499
00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:18,600
Speaker 3: was the whole sort of showdown with Columbia over Columbia's

500
00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:22,720
Speaker 3: like being pissed off about the treatment of deportees to Columbia,

501
00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:25,720
Speaker 3: and he used sanctions. There there is again him saying

502
00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:28,159
Speaker 3: the US is going to take over Gaza. And this

503
00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:31,879
Speaker 3: is a very, very substantively different thing than than the

504
00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:34,320
Speaker 3: kind of American empire that we've had before.

505
00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:34,640
Speaker 6: Right.

506
00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:37,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, the last time the US tried to take Canada

507
00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:42,280
Speaker 3: was eighteen twelve. Right, it's been like two hot hundred years.

508
00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:45,920
Speaker 3: This is how Britain returns to the world stage, right,

509
00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:47,639
Speaker 3: And the thing is, last time, the last time the

510
00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:49,640
Speaker 3: US tried to take Canada, they burned the capitol down,

511
00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:51,919
Speaker 3: so like you know, yeah, but like like this is

512
00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:55,000
Speaker 3: something that even even under like people like Bush, right,

513
00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:57,440
Speaker 3: who is like a Bush is like a very very

514
00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:00,520
Speaker 3: avert American imperialist, right, yeah, Bush would ever try to

515
00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:05,520
Speaker 3: invade Canada. Like yeah, yeah, that's that's completely unhinged, right,

516
00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:07,800
Speaker 3: And this is this, this is just a very very

517
00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:11,560
Speaker 3: different kind of imperialism than than what existed before. And

518
00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:13,720
Speaker 3: I wanted to go into I think why this is

519
00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:17,000
Speaker 3: the case? Yeah, and I think the reason why this

520
00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:19,239
Speaker 3: is the case. Okay, So the reason that there's been

521
00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:21,040
Speaker 3: such a defensive free trade is like people being like,

522
00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:22,640
Speaker 3: oh my god, if he puts teriffs in place, it'll

523
00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:24,400
Speaker 3: raise prices, and like, yeah, that's true, right, it'll crash

524
00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:27,040
Speaker 3: the global economy because the global economy has been turned

525
00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:29,840
Speaker 3: into a very very efficient engine of extracting profit from

526
00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:32,359
Speaker 3: countries and putting them in the hands of corporations. Right.

527
00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:35,040
Speaker 3: It's it's working exactly how Trump wants it to work. Now,

528
00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:37,760
Speaker 3: if the US wants to rebuild a manufacturing economy, that

529
00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:40,720
Speaker 3: is technically possible, right, Reagan was able to do this.

530
00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:44,040
Speaker 3: But what Reagan did instead of doing tariffs is that well,

531
00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:45,400
Speaker 3: I mean kind of you but like the main thing

532
00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:48,760
Speaker 3: that he did was this thing called the Plaza Accords.

533
00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:51,359
Speaker 3: And the Plaza Accords was this this thing in the

534
00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:55,359
Speaker 3: eighties where he forced Japan. Japan was the important moment,

535
00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:57,840
Speaker 3: like Japan, West Germany. I think there are a couple

536
00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:01,480
Speaker 3: other countries like he forced them to increase the value

537
00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:04,560
Speaker 3: of their currency relative to the dollar, because like, you know,

538
00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:06,159
Speaker 3: so if you have a currency and it's worth a

539
00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:09,080
Speaker 3: bunch of like another person's currency, so like you know,

540
00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:11,360
Speaker 3: you have like the dollar and it's worth like a million,

541
00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:14,120
Speaker 3: like yen or whatever the fuck, right, the currency that's

542
00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:18,879
Speaker 3: worthless has a more competitive manufacturing economy. And Reagan was

543
00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:21,680
Speaker 3: able to like restart the American like manufacturing economy for

544
00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:23,359
Speaker 3: a while by doing this. But the problem is that

545
00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:25,600
Speaker 3: it blew up the entire world economy. And so to

546
00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:29,320
Speaker 3: save the world economy, Clinton rolled back the accords and it,

547
00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:31,119
Speaker 3: you know, and that was the thing that actually finally

548
00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:34,800
Speaker 3: sort of like a viscerated American manufacturing and the exchange

549
00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:37,600
Speaker 3: here was you know, and all of the stuff that

550
00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:39,280
Speaker 3: I've been I've been talking about for the last few minutes.

551
00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:42,400
Speaker 3: So there's a very very good essay written right after

552
00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:44,520
Speaker 3: two thousand and eight called What's good for Goldman Sachs

553
00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:47,879
Speaker 3: is good for America by the economist Robert Brenner. And

554
00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:50,720
Speaker 3: what the strategy became, and this is a strategy that

555
00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:54,840
Speaker 3: was originally pioneered by Japan that we took was instead

556
00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:57,280
Speaker 3: of having like a manufacturing economy, like actually a production

557
00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:01,000
Speaker 3: based economy, you have an economy based on the value

558
00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:01,640
Speaker 3: of assets.

559
00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:01,920
Speaker 5: Right.

560
00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:03,639
Speaker 3: So assets are things that you own, right, this is

561
00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:06,159
Speaker 3: the stocks, bonds, like real estate, which is important for

562
00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:08,879
Speaker 3: our purposes. And the goal is to make the value

563
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:09,960
Speaker 3: of those things go up.

564
00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:10,440
Speaker 5: Right.

565
00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:12,159
Speaker 3: And so what you do is you speculate on you

566
00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:14,680
Speaker 3: you take out loans, You speculate on the prices of

567
00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:19,040
Speaker 3: stocks going up, the prices of houses going up right,

568
00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:21,680
Speaker 3: and you know, you make it very easy to borrow money. Now,

569
00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:25,080
Speaker 3: obviously this produced a series of like staggering economic collapses,

570
00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:28,040
Speaker 3: including like the dot com collapse two thousand and eight

571
00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:29,920
Speaker 3: with you.

572
00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:30,919
Speaker 5: Know remember that one.

573
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:33,359
Speaker 3: But the thing is in the way of the financial collapse.

574
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:36,040
Speaker 3: The US mostly figured out how to sort of stabilize

575
00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:39,480
Speaker 3: the system. But the thing is, you know, they were

576
00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:43,119
Speaker 3: sort of able to stabilize the system economically, right. What

577
00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:46,080
Speaker 3: they couldn't stabilize was the political sector, where if you

578
00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:47,879
Speaker 3: look at the two people who are currently running the

579
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:50,359
Speaker 3: United States, it is Elon Musk, who is the human

580
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:53,480
Speaker 3: personification of the stock price goes up bubble economy, right,

581
00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:56,200
Speaker 3: and the other one is Donald Trump, who is the

582
00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:59,560
Speaker 3: human manifestation of the real estate class, right, whose wealth

583
00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:02,639
Speaker 3: like belie enormously. And the thing is right, but because

584
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:04,800
Speaker 3: Elon Musk is like a tech bubble go up guy, right,

585
00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:08,040
Speaker 3: those people don't think like the people who built like

586
00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:12,240
Speaker 3: American financial capitalists, right, just like the people who designed

587
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:14,480
Speaker 3: the tratism, they don't think the same way Trump does.

588
00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:16,959
Speaker 3: Trump is a fucking real estate guy, right, And this

589
00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:18,720
Speaker 3: is how he sees the world. Right. He thinks in

590
00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:21,320
Speaker 3: terms of land and borders and territorial control. And he

591
00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:23,960
Speaker 3: thinks in terms of like what physical thing can I

592
00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:26,320
Speaker 3: steal from someone in order to make money? Right, and

593
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:27,800
Speaker 3: that you know, this is why you're trying to steal

594
00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:31,280
Speaker 3: the Panama Canal. And and he thinks this way instead

595
00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:33,680
Speaker 3: of like things that are more abstract like debt servicing

596
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:35,760
Speaker 3: and like, you know, the sort of lines of power

597
00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:36,680
Speaker 3: in the coalition building.

598
00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:37,040
Speaker 10: Right.

599
00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:40,199
Speaker 3: He looks at a map of Greenland and goes, this

600
00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:42,440
Speaker 3: looks really big. I want it and so and now

601
00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:44,240
Speaker 3: he's going to try to use the American empire to

602
00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:45,560
Speaker 3: just seize this.

603
00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:49,680
Speaker 5: Yeah. He sees things in terms of like raw power.

604
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:55,120
Speaker 6: It's a very uh undeveloped notion of like power, right,

605
00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:57,240
Speaker 6: Like yeah, yeah, I was thinking the other day, like,

606
00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:00,960
Speaker 6: whoever is in the same room as Joseph I must

607
00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:03,359
Speaker 6: be having a fucking field day right now at the

608
00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:07,159
Speaker 6: guy who he was there? He wrote books about soft power, right,

609
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:09,359
Speaker 6: the idea of the US power to persuade rather than

610
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:12,359
Speaker 6: power to kind of whether there rather than like hard power,

611
00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:14,320
Speaker 6: which comes in tanks or tariffs.

612
00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:17,719
Speaker 5: I guess, Joseph and I is no longer relevant. I

613
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:18,119
Speaker 5: get that.

614
00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:21,760
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, no, we're we're back. We're back in pure hardpower.

615
00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:24,159
Speaker 3: And something I think is renal very alarming that I

616
00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:26,719
Speaker 3: want to close on is the extent to which, like

617
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:29,320
Speaker 3: the US media is just sort of just once do

618
00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:32,000
Speaker 3: you propaganda for it? Yeah, I'm gonna I'm going to

619
00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:35,720
Speaker 3: read a quote from a CNN arc again this is CNN. Quote.

620
00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:38,600
Speaker 3: The subject heading is the US has been expanding for

621
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:41,800
Speaker 3: its entire history. This is an article, oh, the title

622
00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:44,280
Speaker 3: of which is Trump is Trump wants to redraw the

623
00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:47,440
Speaker 3: map of the Western hemisphere for fun's.

624
00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:51,480
Speaker 6: Sake, like twenty twenty five Monroe doctrine posting on CNN literal.

625
00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:54,320
Speaker 3: Literally literally, Okay, okay, you are so far ahead of

626
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:57,760
Speaker 3: this thing, because the next I'm going to read the

627
00:28:58,000 --> 00:28:58,880
Speaker 3: one I was going to read.

628
00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:02,440
Speaker 6: First, Uplift civilizing cris you and I what's an next paragrad.

629
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:05,400
Speaker 3: The next section heading is and I quote what is

630
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:08,680
Speaker 3: Trump's doctrine and explains the Monroe doctor for.

631
00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:12,600
Speaker 6: Fox sake, this is I cannot explain how like I

632
00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:16,680
Speaker 6: have taught this as a thing in history classes for

633
00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:19,520
Speaker 6: more than a decade from the perspective of like that

634
00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:23,160
Speaker 6: was fucked up and shameful, and even the conservative students like, yeah,

635
00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:26,200
Speaker 6: hard agree, look at these racists as fuck cartoons about

636
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:29,400
Speaker 6: Filipino people that were used in here to justify this,

637
00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:32,800
Speaker 6: and now we are back like it is, and like, yeah,

638
00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:37,000
Speaker 6: CNN is just out there like fucking cranking the manufacturing consent.

639
00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:40,000
Speaker 3: That's not even the worst part about it, Like I

640
00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:41,200
Speaker 3: want to read the session. So one of the other

641
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:43,320
Speaker 3: section headings is the US has been expanding for its

642
00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:46,920
Speaker 3: entire history sick quote expansion. Expansion is built into the

643
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:51,400
Speaker 3: American DNA's has retired Ambassador Gordon Gray, now a professor

644
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:54,400
Speaker 3: of practice at George Washington University and former Foreign Service

645
00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:55,160
Speaker 3: career officer.

646
00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:58,600
Speaker 6: Okay, yeah, like an angel sweeping across the planes, fucking

647
00:29:58,640 --> 00:29:59,720
Speaker 6: manifest destinies.

648
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:02,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's we're you know, and this is this is

649
00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:04,040
Speaker 3: this coming all sort of coming into like the way

650
00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:06,720
Speaker 3: that Trump thinks about which Trump thinks about the US,

651
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:09,480
Speaker 3: like like an eighteenth century land empire, Yeah right, Yeah,

652
00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:13,920
Speaker 3: eighteenth century land empires, you know, got money by conquering

653
00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:17,520
Speaker 3: people and like extracting tribute from them directly. And then

654
00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:20,440
Speaker 3: also you know they were mercancilest empires, right, so they

655
00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:22,080
Speaker 3: they got they got a bunch of their money. And

656
00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:23,440
Speaker 3: this is the thing that Trump explicitly talks about. It

657
00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:25,000
Speaker 3: is like he wants he thinks he can raise revenue

658
00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:26,680
Speaker 3: from like terrosts, which like, no, he can't, but like

659
00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:28,680
Speaker 3: what he can do is use the threat of tariffs

660
00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:31,040
Speaker 3: to like force countries to do whatever the fuck he

661
00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:32,960
Speaker 3: wants and this is the kind of imperialism that we're

662
00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:36,360
Speaker 3: in now. It is a definite, substantive break from what

663
00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:39,239
Speaker 3: we've seen in the US for a century, more than

664
00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:41,720
Speaker 3: a century. Yeah, and I think I think it's important

665
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:44,880
Speaker 3: for people to understand exactly how this functions. Yeah, and yeah,

666
00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:45,720
Speaker 3: it's sick.

667
00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:48,120
Speaker 5: We're going into the new opium wars. It's going to

668
00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:52,000
Speaker 5: be so fun. Yeah, it's great.

669
00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:54,520
Speaker 3: Well, this is this spiniacul happened here. Do not get

670
00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:58,360
Speaker 3: kettles on bridges, go out into the worlds and make trouble.

671
00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:01,800
Speaker 6: And people want to read more about the early like

672
00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:05,880
Speaker 6: globalizing that the previous year of neoliberal globalization, Like Naomi

673
00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:08,800
Speaker 6: Klein has some good stuff, and I think Joe Stiglitz

674
00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:09,520
Speaker 6: does as well.

675
00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:14,560
Speaker 3: We can Yeah, yeah, I also recommend David Graber's direct

676
00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:18,360
Speaker 3: action in Ethnography, which is him writing about the original

677
00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:21,200
Speaker 3: like anti like ult globalization protests and his like time

678
00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:24,000
Speaker 3: in them. So you know, if you need direct action ideas,

679
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:26,920
Speaker 3: they did some fun stuff. Yeah, dressing guys up like

680
00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:30,080
Speaker 3: marshmallows and police batons would bounce off the great.

681
00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:32,600
Speaker 5: Yeah, bring back clown block. That'll get us through it.

682
00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:59,560
Speaker 9: Yeah.

683
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:04,960
Speaker 7: The government of two Weeks ago no longer exists. We

684
00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:08,440
Speaker 7: are now in a fundamentally different country. Under the authority

685
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:11,800
Speaker 7: President Trump. Elon Musk is leading a de facto cyber

686
00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:15,800
Speaker 7: coup of the United States using the intentionally vague and

687
00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:20,840
Speaker 7: unaccountable department of a government efficiency, Musk is seizing control

688
00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:25,000
Speaker 7: of the United States critical digital infrastructure, literally rewriting the

689
00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:28,840
Speaker 7: code that runs our country and culling the federal workforce.

690
00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:34,160
Speaker 7: Using the justification of removing government bureaucracy, Musk and the

691
00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:38,760
Speaker 7: Trump administration have installed their own batch of bureaucratic tech oligarchs,

692
00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:42,640
Speaker 7: made up of former Tesla and SpaceX interns and engineers,

693
00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:50,240
Speaker 7: teal fellowship researchers, pallenteer employees, eugenics enthusiasts, and literal nick fuentes,

694
00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:54,120
Speaker 7: pilled gropers. Career employees have been locked out of their

695
00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:58,600
Speaker 7: respective agencies, both digitally and physically, as the DOGE team

696
00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:03,800
Speaker 7: ransacks various departments and accesses wide swaths of sensitive government data.

697
00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:07,760
Speaker 7: Agency officials who have tried to resist Musk's seizure of

698
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:11,480
Speaker 7: classified materials have been fired, and more federal employees have

699
00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:15,800
Speaker 7: been put on leave, including the entirety of USAID. This

700
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:20,200
Speaker 7: effectively amounts to Musk abolishing the whole department, all without

701
00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:24,600
Speaker 7: congressional authorization or oversight, not even in executive order from

702
00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:28,959
Speaker 7: Trump that extends presidential authority on a whim. The unelected

703
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:31,959
Speaker 7: Elon Musk decided to carry out the closure of an

704
00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:36,800
Speaker 7: entire government agency, and he is far from finished. Doge

705
00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:40,680
Speaker 7: has hijacked the Treasury to withhold authorized payments to multiple agencies,

706
00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:44,479
Speaker 7: resulting in an ongoing battle of lawsuits and court orders.

707
00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:49,200
Speaker 7: This is it could happen here. I'm Garrison Davis, and

708
00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:52,040
Speaker 7: this episode is an audio companion to an article I

709
00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:56,240
Speaker 7: published on the shatter Zone substack linked below. In the description.

710
00:33:56,760 --> 00:34:01,000
Speaker 7: You can follow along online at Shatterzone dots substack dot

711
00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:04,720
Speaker 7: com and click the hyperlinks for more information and sources.

712
00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:10,239
Speaker 7: Elon Musk has personally directed the General Services Administration to

713
00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:15,600
Speaker 7: terminate leases on quote unquote mostly empty federal buildings. The GSA,

714
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:19,080
Speaker 7: essentially the landlord of the federal government, was one of

715
00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:22,520
Speaker 7: the first agencies to receive Musks quote unquote fork in

716
00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:26,480
Speaker 7: the road deferred resignation letter offering to buy out the

717
00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:30,840
Speaker 7: entire workforce. The legality of the letter is still uncertain,

718
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:35,440
Speaker 7: as it promises to pay out currently unappropriated funds. IRS

719
00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:38,319
Speaker 7: workers who accepted the resignation offer have already been asked

720
00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:43,200
Speaker 7: to return to work until May. The newly appointed GSA Commissioner,

721
00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:47,560
Speaker 7: Michael Peters, a private equity executive that specializes in downsizing

722
00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:51,640
Speaker 7: corporate real estate, has decided that quote non DoD federal

723
00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:55,880
Speaker 7: building space should be reduced fifty percent quote, According to

724
00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:59,799
Speaker 7: a GSA employee who requested to remain anonymous, on top

725
00:34:59,840 --> 00:35:03,360
Speaker 7: of planning to cut the entire federal portfolio by half,

726
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:07,200
Speaker 7: DOGE is seeking to cut GSA's own budget by as

727
00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:11,400
Speaker 7: much as fifty percent, with talk of consolidating GSA offices

728
00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:15,200
Speaker 7: into a few major cities using a quote unquote hub model.

729
00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:19,120
Speaker 7: Wired reports that DOGE staff may be trying to use

730
00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:24,640
Speaker 7: White House IT credentials to access GSA computers remotely. An

731
00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:28,080
Speaker 7: anonymous GSA employee claims that few people at the agency

732
00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:32,040
Speaker 7: have elected to take up the voluntary paid resignation offer,

733
00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:36,040
Speaker 7: with those who have mostly being of retirement age. High

734
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:40,360
Speaker 7: leveled Trump appointees used quote unquote scare tactics in agency

735
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:44,640
Speaker 7: emails pressuring career employees to accept the deferred resignation offer,

736
00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:48,319
Speaker 7: warning that cost cutting measures will eventually lead to a

737
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:52,480
Speaker 7: further reduction in force. Employees are concerned that a reduced

738
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:56,560
Speaker 7: federal workforce would result in federal buildings losing their operations

739
00:35:56,560 --> 00:36:01,080
Speaker 7: and maintenance contracts, with disastrous consequences for the functionality of

740
00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:05,280
Speaker 7: government buildings. Quote the brain drain is going to cripple

741
00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:08,440
Speaker 7: our ability to maintain the buildings even more than it

742
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:13,880
Speaker 7: already was. We aren't overstaffed unquote for a GSA employee,

743
00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:18,399
Speaker 7: they continued, quote, I think this process is already too

744
00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:21,880
Speaker 7: far along to stop. I'm hoping we just need to

745
00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:25,880
Speaker 7: get to the mid terms unquote. What is happening across

746
00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:29,359
Speaker 7: the federal government right now is unprecedented. But this is

747
00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:31,680
Speaker 7: not Germany in the nineteen thirties. It's not the fall

748
00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:34,759
Speaker 7: of the Soviet Union. We grasp at analogies to help

749
00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:39,840
Speaker 7: contextualize current events that escape understanding. There are similarities, but

750
00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:44,920
Speaker 7: what's happening is new, very American, very twenty first century.

751
00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:49,160
Speaker 7: Think of the growth of the Internet, social media tech

752
00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:53,480
Speaker 7: startups in fifty years. What's happening right now could be

753
00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:56,239
Speaker 7: talked about in the vein of what happened to the

754
00:36:56,320 --> 00:37:00,680
Speaker 7: United States in the mid twenty twenties. Now, rhetoric of

755
00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:04,760
Speaker 7: cutting red tape and breaking federal bureaucracy has been common

756
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:08,960
Speaker 7: political clap trap for decades, and previous efforts have been

757
00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:12,879
Speaker 7: largely all bark and no bite. But now there's been

758
00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:18,359
Speaker 7: a huge chomp. So why now? What happened? Trump has

759
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:22,240
Speaker 7: blamed entrenched federal bureaucracy or the quote unquote deep state,

760
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:27,759
Speaker 7: for preventing him from enacting sweeping change during his first term.

761
00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:30,719
Speaker 7: The obstacles Trump encountered didn't just come from Congress and

762
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:34,080
Speaker 7: the courts, but rank and file government workers who run

763
00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:38,560
Speaker 7: day to day operations. Last month, the far right America

764
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:42,960
Speaker 7: First Policy Institute published a report titled Tales from the Swamp,

765
00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:48,040
Speaker 7: How federal bureaucrats resisted President Trump. The author, James Shrek,

766
00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:53,040
Speaker 7: a former Heritage fellow, credits quote unquote hostile career employees

767
00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:58,960
Speaker 7: for quote unquote refusing to implement policies. Shrek says, quote

768
00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:05,120
Speaker 7: many employees refused or defied directives withheld information, slow walked

769
00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:09,960
Speaker 7: projects that they opposed, performed unacceptably, and used strategic leaking

770
00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:14,759
Speaker 7: to undermine the president's agenda unquote. Trump himself realized this

771
00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:17,520
Speaker 7: late into his first term and sought to remedy the

772
00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:21,440
Speaker 7: situation by revoking civil protections for tens of thousands of

773
00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:25,960
Speaker 7: federal career employees, reclassifying them as atwill employees under an

774
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:29,799
Speaker 7: executive order called Schedule F. This allowed Trump to treat

775
00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:34,400
Speaker 7: large swaths of government employees as political appointments. In his

776
00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:38,360
Speaker 7: article for the America First Policy Institute, Shrek refers to

777
00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:42,560
Speaker 7: career removal protections as a quote modern invention that protects

778
00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:48,000
Speaker 7: entrenched bureaucracy unquote. Though Biden repealed Schedule F, Trump effectively

779
00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:50,680
Speaker 7: reinstated the order on the first day of his second term.

780
00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:54,760
Speaker 7: Trump promised to restore his authority to quote remove rogue

781
00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:58,880
Speaker 7: bureaucrats back in early twenty twenty three under his Agenda

782
00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:03,200
Speaker 7: forty seven plan, vowing to quote wield that power very

783
00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:08,240
Speaker 7: aggressively unquote. When Trump first ran on Drain the Swamp

784
00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:12,440
Speaker 7: in twenty fifteen, he was referring to corporate lobbyists special

785
00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:16,439
Speaker 7: interests in Washington corruption, but now the term is used

786
00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:21,880
Speaker 7: to deride the so called administrative state, federal agencies, regulatory boards,

787
00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:25,799
Speaker 7: and bureaucratic career employees that maintain the basic functionality of

788
00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:29,880
Speaker 7: our government. Both Schedule F and Doge are part of

789
00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:33,359
Speaker 7: a too pronged assault on the administrative state, all in

790
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:39,440
Speaker 7: service of consolidating than amplifying executive power. Trump has fully

791
00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:43,560
Speaker 7: embraced the unitary executive theory proposed by the likes of

792
00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:47,000
Speaker 7: Russell Vaught, Project twenty twenty five co author and the

793
00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:50,960
Speaker 7: newly confirmed director of the White House Office of Management

794
00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:54,800
Speaker 7: and Budget. Although it's understood that Congress has quote unquote

795
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:59,080
Speaker 7: power of the purse, under unitary executive theory, Trump now

796
00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:02,600
Speaker 7: believes that funding appropriated by Congress does not need to

797
00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:06,480
Speaker 7: be spent. Rather, the executive branch controls the flow of

798
00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:10,680
Speaker 7: federal spending and Congress merely sets a ceiling on spending

799
00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:14,480
Speaker 7: that the executive must not exceed. Under this interpretation of

800
00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:18,360
Speaker 7: the Constitution, the president has sole and complete control of

801
00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:21,880
Speaker 7: the executive Branch, including all of its agencies and departments.

802
00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:25,520
Speaker 7: But people in Trump's circle like JD. Vance and Elon

803
00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:29,360
Speaker 7: Musk could be pushing Trump to go even further to

804
00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:33,240
Speaker 7: where the president considers both the judicial and legislative branches

805
00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:38,399
Speaker 7: as purely ceremonial and advisory. In the words of New

806
00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:43,279
Speaker 7: Right philosopher Curtis Jarvin, and arguably we are already well

807
00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:47,040
Speaker 7: on our way to that point. This centralized executive power

808
00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:49,799
Speaker 7: allows the executive branch to achieve goals I would have

809
00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:53,839
Speaker 7: previously considered to be quite lofty. And I'll outlined two

810
00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:56,800
Speaker 7: of those examples, pulling from the aspirations of the modern

811
00:40:56,840 --> 00:41:11,360
Speaker 7: conservative movement. After this ad break, welcome back to it

812
00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:14,360
Speaker 7: could happen here, and get ready to say bye bye

813
00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:18,960
Speaker 7: to the FBI. Though the right has typically been thought

814
00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:21,160
Speaker 7: to be firmly in the back of the blue camp,

815
00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:25,319
Speaker 7: this isn't always the case, especially on the more extreme end.

816
00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:28,560
Speaker 7: The far right militia movement has long clashed with federal

817
00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:31,960
Speaker 7: law enforcement agencies like the FBI and ATF. In the

818
00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:35,920
Speaker 7: aftermath of January sixth, many Mega supporters found themselves at

819
00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:40,120
Speaker 7: odds with the Federal Bureau of Investigation. Republican politicians began

820
00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:43,719
Speaker 7: to feed into right wing uproar surrounding the FBI, as

821
00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:47,920
Speaker 7: Trump himself became a target for investigations after the mar

822
00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:51,080
Speaker 7: Lago raid. In August of twenty twenty two, Marjorie Taylor

823
00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:57,280
Speaker 7: Green tweeted defund the FBI. Arizona Representative Paul Gosar joined

824
00:41:57,280 --> 00:42:01,480
Speaker 7: in attacks on the bureau, hosting weight to destroy the FBI,

825
00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:06,360
Speaker 7: we must save America. That same month, right wing columnist

826
00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:10,160
Speaker 7: and podcaster Liz Wheeler published in op ed titled Abolish

827
00:42:10,239 --> 00:42:14,000
Speaker 7: the FBI, which called to quote farm out the vital

828
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:17,960
Speaker 7: functions of the FBI and raise the rest unquote. The

829
00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:22,280
Speaker 7: new right publication Compact Magazine featured a slightly better written

830
00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:27,080
Speaker 7: article by the same title, Abolish the FBI at CPAC.

831
00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:30,120
Speaker 7: In March of twenty twenty three, Matt Gates, noted pedophile

832
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:34,680
Speaker 7: advocated to get rid of the FBI among other federal agencies.

833
00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:37,440
Speaker 2: Either get this government back on our side, or we

834
00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:42,200
Speaker 2: defund and get rid of Abolish the FBI.

835
00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:48,040
Speaker 3: CDC, atf DJ, every last one of them if they

836
00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:49,319
Speaker 3: do not come to heal.

837
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:52,680
Speaker 7: In April of twenty twenty three, Trump joined in in

838
00:42:52,719 --> 00:42:57,120
Speaker 7: calls to defund the FBI after being charged with thirty

839
00:42:57,160 --> 00:43:00,680
Speaker 7: four felon accounts of falsepying business records. Next month, to

840
00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:04,880
Speaker 7: former FBI employees testified in a congressional hearing accusing the

841
00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:09,360
Speaker 7: Bureau of weaponization against conservatives in regards to the January

842
00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:13,839
Speaker 7: sixth investigations. The same two former FBI employees who had

843
00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:17,840
Speaker 7: their security clearance revoked after espousing j six conspiracy theories.

844
00:43:18,320 --> 00:43:22,560
Speaker 7: Later called to quote abolish the FBI at a Heritage

845
00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:26,920
Speaker 7: Foundation symposium on the quote weaponization of the US government

846
00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:29,640
Speaker 7: in April of twenty twenty four.

847
00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:34,799
Speaker 8: You're given that magic wand that ability to be Jim Jordan, what.

848
00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:35,239
Speaker 1: Would you do?

849
00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:37,960
Speaker 5: I think you have to abolish the FBI. That's where

850
00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:38,760
Speaker 5: I'm at at this point.

851
00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:44,200
Speaker 8: What now, some people are going to say, Okay, yeah,

852
00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:46,319
Speaker 8: we're gonna have to do you just abolish a What

853
00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:46,719
Speaker 8: would to you?

854
00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:49,040
Speaker 3: Is there a replacement? I mean, you can't just not

855
00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:51,080
Speaker 3: have federal law enforcement, right.

856
00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:53,920
Speaker 5: I think in large part, you could just not have

857
00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:54,720
Speaker 5: federal lawforce.

858
00:43:55,960 --> 00:43:59,440
Speaker 7: During a live episode of Donald Trump Junior's podcast on

859
00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:02,680
Speaker 7: July eight eight, twenty twenty four, he called to abolish

860
00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:06,560
Speaker 7: several federal agencies, starting with the FBI as well as

861
00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:08,520
Speaker 7: the CIA and the IRS.

862
00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:14,560
Speaker 4: Abolished the DEA. You know, I imagine of all the

863
00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:16,359
Speaker 4: places to abolish, and I don't know if that's the

864
00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:19,680
Speaker 4: best one. I'd start with the FBI, I'd start with

865
00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:23,399
Speaker 4: the CIA, I'd start with the IRS. There's a lot

866
00:44:23,400 --> 00:44:26,320
Speaker 4: of you know, the DA. Now maybe I know agent

867
00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:28,560
Speaker 4: level guys. So if they're going after narcos and stuff

868
00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:30,680
Speaker 4: like that. Perhaps a little bit more forgiving. They don't

869
00:44:30,680 --> 00:44:32,839
Speaker 4: seem to be setting up or in trapping people like

870
00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:33,480
Speaker 4: the FBI.

871
00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:37,520
Speaker 7: The Trump administration has already begun the process to dismantle

872
00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:41,319
Speaker 7: large swaths of the FBI before cash Battel has even

873
00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:45,040
Speaker 7: been confirmed by the Senate. Eight top FBI officials have

874
00:44:45,120 --> 00:44:48,680
Speaker 7: been fired or forced resign by order of Acting Deputy

875
00:44:48,680 --> 00:44:53,400
Speaker 7: Attorney General Emil Bove, despite resistance from Acting FBI Director

876
00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:58,200
Speaker 7: Brian Driscoll. A questionnaire was distributed to FBI supervisors requesting

877
00:44:58,239 --> 00:45:01,680
Speaker 7: agents provide information to their own involvement in the January

878
00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:05,080
Speaker 7: sixth investigations. This was believed to be used for the

879
00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:09,440
Speaker 7: targeted removal of agency personnel. Last week, the FBI handed

880
00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:13,319
Speaker 7: over a list containing the information of five thousand employees

881
00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:17,480
Speaker 7: and agents who worked on the January sixth investigations. FBI

882
00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:21,799
Speaker 7: leadership initially chose to withhold employee names. In response, Bove

883
00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:26,759
Speaker 7: accused the FBI leadership of insubordination. This was ultimately a

884
00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:30,439
Speaker 7: fruitless effort, as data seized by Elon Musk's DOGE team

885
00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:35,479
Speaker 7: could easily match employee IDs to names. Trump has since

886
00:45:35,520 --> 00:45:38,560
Speaker 7: agreed to not publicly release the names of agents until

887
00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:42,680
Speaker 7: at least late March as lawsuits continue, and is required

888
00:45:42,719 --> 00:45:45,880
Speaker 7: to give two days notice if the administration chooses to

889
00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:50,319
Speaker 7: publicly disclosed names. But individual agents are still worried. An

890
00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:53,400
Speaker 7: anonymous letter from an FBI agent to Warren's quote. Currently,

891
00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:55,880
Speaker 7: there is an effort to cull a significant number of

892
00:45:55,960 --> 00:46:00,520
Speaker 7: career special agents from the Federal Bureau of Investigation unquote.

893
00:46:00,560 --> 00:46:03,239
Speaker 7: Around one third of FBI agents were told they would

894
00:46:03,239 --> 00:46:05,920
Speaker 7: be placed on leave. According to a government source who

895
00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:09,680
Speaker 7: spoke on the condition of anonymity, FBI employees have lost

896
00:46:09,719 --> 00:46:13,480
Speaker 7: access to systems, only to later regain access, while others

897
00:46:13,520 --> 00:46:16,600
Speaker 7: were told to wait to find out about their employee status.

898
00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:20,840
Speaker 7: Agents are now trying to negotiate back into their jobs,

899
00:46:21,160 --> 00:46:24,359
Speaker 7: with sources saying FBI employees may be able to stay

900
00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:27,600
Speaker 7: on if they can prove their loyalty to Trump and

901
00:46:27,680 --> 00:46:31,480
Speaker 7: disown the January sixth prosecutions. I write all of this

902
00:46:31,800 --> 00:46:35,600
Speaker 7: not in defense of the FBI, but to demonstrate how

903
00:46:35,680 --> 00:46:38,400
Speaker 7: far Trump is willing to go to expand his executive

904
00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:42,239
Speaker 7: power and transfer law enforcement duties to agencies seen as

905
00:46:42,400 --> 00:46:45,680
Speaker 7: more loyal to the president. Though I doubt the FBI

906
00:46:45,760 --> 00:46:49,080
Speaker 7: will be completely abolished in the next few years. The

907
00:46:49,160 --> 00:46:53,480
Speaker 7: agency could become unrecognizable, a shell of its former self,

908
00:46:53,800 --> 00:46:58,000
Speaker 7: with hardline Trump loyalists replacing the existing and already largely

909
00:46:58,040 --> 00:47:03,440
Speaker 7: conservative workforce. Alternative agencies perceived as being more loyal to Trump,

910
00:47:03,640 --> 00:47:08,200
Speaker 7: like Homeland security investigations, could start picking up the FBI slack.

911
00:47:08,880 --> 00:47:11,520
Speaker 7: According to a senior government source, on day two of

912
00:47:11,560 --> 00:47:16,520
Speaker 7: Trump's second term, HSI was instructed to reopen investigations into

913
00:47:16,560 --> 00:47:21,160
Speaker 7: the twenty twenty George Floyd protests to quote identify protesters

914
00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:27,080
Speaker 7: BLM rioters likely did to us after January sixth, unquote.

915
00:47:27,120 --> 00:47:30,680
Speaker 7: For another once considered far fetched goal of the conservative

916
00:47:30,719 --> 00:47:34,520
Speaker 7: movement that now seems oddly within grasp, let's talk about

917
00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:38,640
Speaker 7: the Department of Education. Conservatives have advocated for dismantling the

918
00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:41,840
Speaker 7: Department of Education ever since Jimmy Carter signed its modern

919
00:47:41,840 --> 00:47:46,120
Speaker 7: incarnation into law in nineteen seventy nine. Most notably, Ronald

920
00:47:46,160 --> 00:47:49,320
Speaker 7: Reagan tried and failed to abolish the department in nineteen

921
00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:54,719
Speaker 7: eighty one, but Reagan's Commission ironically strengthened support for the department.

922
00:47:55,440 --> 00:47:58,680
Speaker 7: Once Reagan ran into roadblocks, he instead sought to limit

923
00:47:58,719 --> 00:48:03,040
Speaker 7: the Department's power end influence. Since then, calls to abolish

924
00:48:03,120 --> 00:48:05,680
Speaker 7: the Department of Education have been a recurring Republican talking

925
00:48:05,680 --> 00:48:09,040
Speaker 7: point among certain think tanks and politicians, but they have

926
00:48:09,120 --> 00:48:13,000
Speaker 7: struggled to land sizeable blows against the department. Trump previously

927
00:48:13,000 --> 00:48:15,760
Speaker 7: fiddled around with merging the Departments of Education and Labor

928
00:48:15,880 --> 00:48:19,839
Speaker 7: during his first term, but that plan went nowhere. In

929
00:48:19,840 --> 00:48:22,719
Speaker 7: Trump's own Agenda forty seven plan, released in twenty twenty three,

930
00:48:23,040 --> 00:48:26,000
Speaker 7: he expressed his goal of quote closing up the Department

931
00:48:26,000 --> 00:48:29,960
Speaker 7: of Education in Washington, d c. Later, at the National

932
00:48:29,960 --> 00:48:35,319
Speaker 7: Religious Broadcasters twenty twenty four Christian Media Convention in February

933
00:48:35,360 --> 00:48:39,200
Speaker 7: of twenty twenty four, Donald Trump repeated this promise, quote,

934
00:48:39,560 --> 00:48:42,000
Speaker 7: I will close the Federal Department of Education, and we

935
00:48:42,040 --> 00:48:44,800
Speaker 7: will move everything back to the states where it belongs,

936
00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:50,040
Speaker 7: where they can individualize education unquote. Project twenty twenty five

937
00:48:50,120 --> 00:48:53,240
Speaker 7: outlined how to achieve the effective dismantling of the department

938
00:48:53,560 --> 00:48:57,000
Speaker 7: by transferring funding and duties to other departments such as

939
00:48:57,040 --> 00:49:00,800
Speaker 7: Health and Human Services and the DOJ. Opposition to the

940
00:49:00,840 --> 00:49:04,000
Speaker 7: Department of Education was a frequent topic at the twenty

941
00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:08,960
Speaker 7: twenty four Republican National Convention in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. Robert Sophie

942
00:49:08,960 --> 00:49:12,400
Speaker 7: and I attended multiple panels and events taking aim at

943
00:49:12,440 --> 00:49:15,359
Speaker 7: the department, hosted by groups like Moms for Liberty and

944
00:49:15,440 --> 00:49:18,840
Speaker 7: the Heritage Foundation. On the first day of the convention,

945
00:49:19,280 --> 00:49:23,080
Speaker 7: the party ratified their official twenty twenty four RNC platform,

946
00:49:23,400 --> 00:49:26,760
Speaker 7: which called to quote close the Department of Education in Washington,

947
00:49:26,840 --> 00:49:28,759
Speaker 7: d C. And send it back to the States where

948
00:49:28,760 --> 00:49:32,080
Speaker 7: it belongs, and let the states run our educational system

949
00:49:32,200 --> 00:49:35,400
Speaker 7: as it should be run unquote. And now the Department

950
00:49:35,440 --> 00:49:38,280
Speaker 7: seems to be next on the Trump doge chopping block.

951
00:49:38,760 --> 00:49:42,080
Speaker 7: The administration is drafting a sweeping executive order. While Trump

952
00:49:42,120 --> 00:49:45,839
Speaker 7: says he wants his education nominee Linda McMahon to quote

953
00:49:45,880 --> 00:49:49,680
Speaker 7: unquote put herself out of a job. The planned executive

954
00:49:49,760 --> 00:49:52,200
Speaker 7: order would not just direct the Secretary of Education to

955
00:49:52,239 --> 00:49:56,640
Speaker 7: begin dismantling the department, but also ask Congress for assistance

956
00:49:56,800 --> 00:50:01,080
Speaker 7: in formally abolishing the agency. It's unlikely that Trump would

957
00:50:01,080 --> 00:50:03,719
Speaker 7: get the sixty Senate votes needed to pass the quote

958
00:50:03,760 --> 00:50:08,080
Speaker 7: unquote necessary legislation, but even if they can't manage to

959
00:50:08,160 --> 00:50:11,719
Speaker 7: technically abolish the department, he could still try to rip it,

960
00:50:11,760 --> 00:50:15,839
Speaker 7: scuts out, slash spending and forcibly resign or fire employees,

961
00:50:16,440 --> 00:50:19,960
Speaker 7: basically make the department simply non functioning, much like what

962
00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:24,319
Speaker 7: Doge did to USAID. Upwards of sixteen DOGE staffers are

963
00:50:24,360 --> 00:50:28,840
Speaker 7: currently listed in the Education Department Directory. Federal education employees

964
00:50:28,880 --> 00:50:32,240
Speaker 7: have already received the Fork in the Road resignation buyout offer,

965
00:50:32,680 --> 00:50:36,400
Speaker 7: while others have been fired for alleged links to DEI.

966
00:50:37,680 --> 00:50:41,040
Speaker 7: Without someone like Elon Musk and Trump's administration, there was

967
00:50:41,080 --> 00:50:44,040
Speaker 7: no clear path towards implementing some of the more lofty

968
00:50:44,080 --> 00:50:47,440
Speaker 7: plans proposed by conservative thought leaders, whether they be Trump's

969
00:50:47,440 --> 00:50:51,120
Speaker 7: own Agenda forty seven, the Heritage Foundation's Project twenty twenty five,

970
00:50:51,600 --> 00:50:55,880
Speaker 7: or Curtis Jarvin's dream of a national CEO king. Only

971
00:50:56,080 --> 00:51:01,880
Speaker 7: Elon Musk could do this. You need someone with his influence, connections, money, experience,

972
00:51:02,320 --> 00:51:06,120
Speaker 7: and knowledge of fringe neo reactionary Silicon Valley political theory

973
00:51:06,480 --> 00:51:10,560
Speaker 7: to propose and carry out something like Doge. So how

974
00:51:10,560 --> 00:51:14,160
Speaker 7: did Musk get here? Though it's common knowledge that Musk

975
00:51:14,160 --> 00:51:17,360
Speaker 7: has drifted pretty severely right word the past five years

976
00:51:18,080 --> 00:51:20,880
Speaker 7: leading into the twenty twenty four presidential campaign, he was

977
00:51:20,920 --> 00:51:24,239
Speaker 7: not an out and proud Trump supporter as recently as

978
00:51:24,239 --> 00:51:27,520
Speaker 7: twenty twenty two, Musk deemed Trump too old to serve

979
00:51:27,560 --> 00:51:30,080
Speaker 7: as president, again, tweeting that it was time for Trump

980
00:51:30,160 --> 00:51:32,840
Speaker 7: to quote hang up his hat and sail into the

981
00:51:32,880 --> 00:51:37,200
Speaker 7: sunset unquote. Initially, Musk threw his support behind the doomed

982
00:51:37,239 --> 00:51:41,160
Speaker 7: presidential bid of Florida Governor Ron DeSantis, but as it

983
00:51:41,160 --> 00:51:44,319
Speaker 7: became clear Trump would be the Republican nominee, Musk fell

984
00:51:44,360 --> 00:51:48,360
Speaker 7: in behind his new party line, but his implicit support

985
00:51:48,400 --> 00:51:51,279
Speaker 7: of Trump was kept on the down low. The two

986
00:51:51,360 --> 00:51:53,760
Speaker 7: met in Florida in March of twenty twenty four among

987
00:51:53,840 --> 00:51:58,240
Speaker 7: other wealthy Republican donors, as Trump was lobbying for campaign funding.

988
00:51:59,000 --> 00:52:00,960
Speaker 7: The New York Times reported that Musk did not want

989
00:52:00,960 --> 00:52:03,960
Speaker 7: to publicly endorse Trump as of early twenty twenty four,

990
00:52:04,480 --> 00:52:07,360
Speaker 7: telling friends the most he would do was an anti

991
00:52:07,520 --> 00:52:11,560
Speaker 7: Biden endorsement. Instead of public support, Musk would create his

992
00:52:11,640 --> 00:52:15,040
Speaker 7: own super pac to secretly help get Trump elected, timing

993
00:52:15,080 --> 00:52:18,200
Speaker 7: payments so his fiscal backing of Trump's campaign could only

994
00:52:18,200 --> 00:52:22,080
Speaker 7: go public after the election. But all that changed on

995
00:52:22,200 --> 00:52:26,919
Speaker 7: July thirteenth, after Trump's brush with death in Butler, Pennsylvania,

996
00:52:27,239 --> 00:52:31,280
Speaker 7: Musk seemingly took Trump's call of fight Fight, Fight to heart,

997
00:52:31,800 --> 00:52:35,040
Speaker 7: tweeting less than an hour later, quote I fully endorse

998
00:52:35,080 --> 00:52:38,759
Speaker 7: President Trump and hope for his rapid recovery unquote. This

999
00:52:38,840 --> 00:52:43,120
Speaker 7: opened more frequent communication between Musk and Trump. Later that weekend,

1000
00:52:43,280 --> 00:52:47,040
Speaker 7: both Musk and Peter Teel called Trump to recommend J. D.

1001
00:52:47,280 --> 00:52:52,160
Speaker 7: Vance as vice president. Next week was the Republican National Convention,

1002
00:52:52,600 --> 00:52:56,359
Speaker 7: during which Elon Musk was frequently name dropped, both by

1003
00:52:56,400 --> 00:53:00,839
Speaker 7: official speakers and regular attendees, talked about as almost some

1004
00:53:00,960 --> 00:53:05,160
Speaker 7: kind of mythic right wing superhero. On the final day

1005
00:53:05,160 --> 00:53:08,239
Speaker 7: of the convention, rumors circulated that Musk himself would make

1006
00:53:08,280 --> 00:53:12,160
Speaker 7: a surprise appearance on stage, Though said rumors did not

1007
00:53:12,200 --> 00:53:16,840
Speaker 7: come to fruition. Musk's specter haunted the entirety of the RNC.

1008
00:53:18,239 --> 00:53:22,239
Speaker 7: Come August, Musk just finished overhauling leadership at his America

1009
00:53:22,280 --> 00:53:26,200
Speaker 7: Super Pack and was rigorously pushing pro Trump messaging on

1010
00:53:26,640 --> 00:53:30,920
Speaker 7: X the Everything app. On August twelfth, Musk hosted Trump

1011
00:53:30,960 --> 00:53:33,719
Speaker 7: in a two hour live streamed phone call dubbed in

1012
00:53:34,160 --> 00:53:38,800
Speaker 7: x Space. This conversation marked the first time Trump casually

1013
00:53:38,840 --> 00:53:42,839
Speaker 7: spoke at length about the assassination attempt. The pair also

1014
00:53:42,880 --> 00:53:47,160
Speaker 7: discussed quote unquote migrant crime and the need to eliminate

1015
00:53:47,239 --> 00:53:52,080
Speaker 7: federal bureaucracy. Trump gave a rare compliment to Musk, calling

1016
00:53:52,160 --> 00:53:55,960
Speaker 7: him the greatest cutter, followed up by saying, quote, I

1017
00:53:56,120 --> 00:53:59,040
Speaker 7: need an Elon Musk. I need someone that has a

1018
00:53:59,040 --> 00:54:02,239
Speaker 7: lot of strength and courage and smarts. I want to

1019
00:54:02,280 --> 00:54:05,080
Speaker 7: close up the Department of Education, move education back to

1020
00:54:05,120 --> 00:54:09,240
Speaker 7: the States unquote. News outlets were more interested in reporting

1021
00:54:09,280 --> 00:54:13,000
Speaker 7: on the stream's technical glitches rather than Musk's idea for

1022
00:54:13,160 --> 00:54:18,200
Speaker 7: a government efficiency commission, to which Trump responded very positively.

1023
00:54:19,040 --> 00:54:22,080
Speaker 7: Next month, on September fourth, Trump announced that, at the

1024
00:54:22,080 --> 00:54:26,200
Speaker 7: suggestion of Elon Musk, if elected, he would quote create

1025
00:54:26,320 --> 00:54:30,400
Speaker 7: a government Efficiency Commission tasked with conducting a complete financial

1026
00:54:30,440 --> 00:54:33,839
Speaker 7: and performance audit of the entire federal government and making

1027
00:54:34,000 --> 00:54:38,960
Speaker 7: recommendations for drastic reforms unquote. Musk himself agreed to be

1028
00:54:39,000 --> 00:54:42,840
Speaker 7: appointed head of the commission, aiming to cut trillions of dollars.

1029
00:54:43,440 --> 00:54:47,080
Speaker 7: This announcement was not taken very seriously. The New York

1030
00:54:47,120 --> 00:54:51,040
Speaker 7: Times called commissions such as this quote a favorite Washington

1031
00:54:51,160 --> 00:54:55,440
Speaker 7: solution for delaying dealing with hard problems unquote, and The

1032
00:54:55,480 --> 00:54:59,319
Speaker 7: Times later reported that the commission quote can issue recommendations

1033
00:54:59,360 --> 00:55:02,600
Speaker 7: around federal five funding and regulations, but will be powerless

1034
00:55:02,640 --> 00:55:05,640
Speaker 7: to enact them without executive actions by mister Trump or

1035
00:55:06,000 --> 00:55:10,440
Speaker 7: funding approval by Congress, even though I can admit that

1036
00:55:10,600 --> 00:55:14,480
Speaker 7: both myself and some of my coworkers underestimated Doge's ability

1037
00:55:14,719 --> 00:55:19,040
Speaker 7: to physically carry out Musk's suggestions with no Congressional oversight

1038
00:55:19,239 --> 00:55:22,919
Speaker 7: or authority. As the election ramped up, musk super Pac

1039
00:55:23,040 --> 00:55:27,040
Speaker 7: mobilized thousands of canvassers across key swing states and collected

1040
00:55:27,080 --> 00:55:31,239
Speaker 7: data to target both enthusiastic and unlikely voters. Throughout twenty

1041
00:55:31,280 --> 00:55:35,080
Speaker 7: twenty four, Musk spent over two hundred and ninety million

1042
00:55:35,160 --> 00:55:39,720
Speaker 7: dollars in contributions in support of the Mega campaign, mostly

1043
00:55:39,840 --> 00:55:43,080
Speaker 7: via his own super pack. On October fifth, Musk made

1044
00:55:43,080 --> 00:55:46,440
Speaker 7: his first appearance at an official campaign event, joining Trump

1045
00:55:46,520 --> 00:55:50,680
Speaker 7: for his return to Butler, Pennsylvania. Musk continued to appear

1046
00:55:50,680 --> 00:55:53,080
Speaker 7: at Trump rallies in the month leading up to the election.

1047
00:55:53,719 --> 00:55:57,440
Speaker 7: By election day, Musk was firmly in Trump's inner circle,

1048
00:55:57,840 --> 00:56:00,799
Speaker 7: spending Election night and most of the next week with

1049
00:56:00,920 --> 00:56:04,960
Speaker 7: President Elect Trump atmar A Lago. After this adbreak, we

1050
00:56:05,000 --> 00:56:07,879
Speaker 7: will return to discuss how Elon Musk is now trying

1051
00:56:07,920 --> 00:56:21,520
Speaker 7: to become the CEO of the United States of America. Okay,

1052
00:56:21,560 --> 00:56:24,960
Speaker 7: we are back, and now a few months after the election,

1053
00:56:25,400 --> 00:56:28,799
Speaker 7: Elon Musk is doing to the United States exactly what

1054
00:56:28,960 --> 00:56:32,040
Speaker 7: he did to Twitter. By the end, it still might

1055
00:56:32,080 --> 00:56:35,680
Speaker 7: technically function on some level, just worse in every way,

1056
00:56:36,160 --> 00:56:40,160
Speaker 7: prone to glitches, and full of Nazis. The previous version

1057
00:56:40,280 --> 00:56:43,560
Speaker 7: was already bad and harmful, but the new one somehow

1058
00:56:43,600 --> 00:56:46,800
Speaker 7: sucks even more and no longer has the aspects that

1059
00:56:46,880 --> 00:56:51,320
Speaker 7: made it semi worthwhile. The Fork in the Road deferred

1060
00:56:51,360 --> 00:56:55,120
Speaker 7: resignation letters sent to government employees used the exact same

1061
00:56:55,200 --> 00:56:59,000
Speaker 7: title as a similar email sent to Twitter employees after

1062
00:56:59,120 --> 00:57:02,800
Speaker 7: Musk bought the com company. The Doge team has installed

1063
00:57:02,880 --> 00:57:05,960
Speaker 7: sofa beds on the fifth floor of the headquarters of

1064
00:57:06,000 --> 00:57:09,480
Speaker 7: the Office of Personnel Management to enable working around the clock,

1065
00:57:10,160 --> 00:57:14,839
Speaker 7: mirroring Musk's previous actions. During his takeover of Twitter, Musk

1066
00:57:14,880 --> 00:57:17,080
Speaker 7: has brought on some of the same exact people who

1067
00:57:17,120 --> 00:57:19,840
Speaker 7: helped him take over Twitter, all of whom are now

1068
00:57:20,200 --> 00:57:24,840
Speaker 7: special government employees with odd job titles but immense power.

1069
00:57:25,680 --> 00:57:28,600
Speaker 7: It was reported and Wired that a Musk stooge told

1070
00:57:28,760 --> 00:57:32,760
Speaker 7: General Services Administration workers that the agency will now pursue

1071
00:57:32,960 --> 00:57:37,920
Speaker 7: quote an AI first strategy unquote, and that the GSA

1072
00:57:38,240 --> 00:57:43,680
Speaker 7: should operate like a quote unquote startup software company. Musk

1073
00:57:43,760 --> 00:57:47,240
Speaker 7: has ordered the General Services Administration to terminate leases for

1074
00:57:47,400 --> 00:57:51,800
Speaker 7: all roughly seven thousand and five hundred federal offices, amidst

1075
00:57:51,840 --> 00:57:55,560
Speaker 7: a national call to return to in person work. This

1076
00:57:55,720 --> 00:57:59,440
Speaker 7: again is a classic Musk move, taken from his takeover

1077
00:57:59,520 --> 00:58:02,600
Speaker 7: of Twitter, in which to cut costs, he refused to

1078
00:58:02,640 --> 00:58:06,160
Speaker 7: pay rent for Twitter offices in London, New York City,

1079
00:58:06,200 --> 00:58:09,479
Speaker 7: and San Francisco while the buildings were still in use.

1080
00:58:10,400 --> 00:58:14,200
Speaker 7: A current GSA employee was quoted and wired as saying, quote,

1081
00:58:14,480 --> 00:58:16,880
Speaker 7: they are acting like this is a takeover of a

1082
00:58:17,000 --> 00:58:21,680
Speaker 7: tech company unquote. Musk's own personal success hasn't been from

1083
00:58:21,680 --> 00:58:24,920
Speaker 7: his skill as an inventor or a software engineer. What

1084
00:58:25,040 --> 00:58:29,479
Speaker 7: he's proficient at is taking over corporations and molding them

1085
00:58:29,520 --> 00:58:33,120
Speaker 7: in his image. This is what happened to Tesla, SpaceX

1086
00:58:33,200 --> 00:58:37,200
Speaker 7: and Twitter in twenty twenty. Musk called the federal government

1087
00:58:37,320 --> 00:58:42,200
Speaker 7: quote the ultimate corporation unquote, and now he seeks to

1088
00:58:42,200 --> 00:58:46,919
Speaker 7: become CEO. In doing this, Musk is following the tech

1089
00:58:47,000 --> 00:58:51,040
Speaker 7: industry motto of move fast and break things. So far

1090
00:58:51,440 --> 00:58:55,960
Speaker 7: all his actions bypass Congress. The slow controller of stable government,

1091
00:58:56,440 --> 00:58:59,880
Speaker 7: having everything be done via executive order and doge helps

1092
00:58:59,880 --> 00:59:03,320
Speaker 7: to speed run a full reboot of the administrative state.

1093
00:59:04,000 --> 00:59:06,200
Speaker 7: The motto of the old government may as well have

1094
00:59:06,240 --> 00:59:10,760
Speaker 7: been move slow and build things. Progress is slow, but

1095
00:59:10,920 --> 00:59:14,720
Speaker 7: detonation is fast. The breakage of government isn't a mere

1096
00:59:14,880 --> 00:59:18,160
Speaker 7: side effect or a bug of this expediated form of rule.

1097
00:59:18,640 --> 00:59:23,520
Speaker 7: It's a feature to reshape the government into their ideal technocracy. First,

1098
00:59:23,640 --> 00:59:27,400
Speaker 7: breaking things is a requirement. They might not get away

1099
00:59:27,400 --> 00:59:29,600
Speaker 7: with all of it, and they don't need to. They're

1100
00:59:29,600 --> 00:59:32,600
Speaker 7: doing so much so fast, knowing that they will only

1101
00:59:32,600 --> 00:59:35,560
Speaker 7: get away with some of it. But with new Supreme

1102
00:59:35,640 --> 00:59:39,919
Speaker 7: Court approved presidential immunity and unlimited pardon power, they can

1103
00:59:39,960 --> 00:59:43,680
Speaker 7: try as much as they want with zero consequence. These

1104
00:59:43,680 --> 00:59:45,640
Speaker 7: are not the moves you would make if you wanted

1105
00:59:45,680 --> 00:59:48,760
Speaker 7: a stable government. It's the moves you would make as

1106
00:59:48,800 --> 00:59:52,400
Speaker 7: a new tech company, which is why Musk's operation is

1107
00:59:52,600 --> 00:59:57,840
Speaker 7: masked with the Silicon Valley language of efficiency. The inefficiencies

1108
00:59:57,840 --> 01:00:01,640
Speaker 7: of government are part of the point. That's what creates stability,

1109
01:00:01,680 --> 01:00:05,200
Speaker 7: makes the country a trusted ally, and gives the dollar value.

1110
01:00:05,600 --> 01:00:06,080
Speaker 3: Quote.

1111
01:00:06,320 --> 01:00:11,400
Speaker 7: Regulations can be bothersome sometimes and downright problematic, but that's

1112
01:00:11,560 --> 01:00:14,400
Speaker 7: kind of the point. They act as a control on

1113
01:00:14,520 --> 01:00:18,120
Speaker 7: imprecise and rushed decision making. If the cost of doing

1114
01:00:18,160 --> 01:00:21,280
Speaker 7: business is slowing down the process, that's the cost that

1115
01:00:21,400 --> 01:00:24,520
Speaker 7: has to be made, to quote a government employee who

1116
01:00:24,560 --> 01:00:29,160
Speaker 7: spoke on the condition of anonymity. But those inefficiencies and

1117
01:00:29,240 --> 01:00:34,080
Speaker 7: pesky regulations really irritate the Silicon Valley tech bros who

1118
01:00:34,120 --> 01:00:37,160
Speaker 7: think they are the smartest people on the planet. It's

1119
01:00:37,200 --> 01:00:40,600
Speaker 7: their view that since they're so smart, shouldn't they run

1120
01:00:40,640 --> 01:00:43,920
Speaker 7: the country. Musk has a personal interest in slashing the

1121
01:00:43,960 --> 01:00:47,800
Speaker 7: regulatory state, as it interferes with his own businesses and

1122
01:00:47,960 --> 01:00:52,800
Speaker 7: dreams of space colonization. Last year, Musk claimed that Doge

1123
01:00:52,880 --> 01:00:58,120
Speaker 7: quote was the only path to extending life beyond Earth unquote.

1124
01:00:58,480 --> 01:01:01,680
Speaker 7: The White House Press Secretary has said that Musk himself

1125
01:01:01,760 --> 01:01:04,920
Speaker 7: will determine when there is a conflict of interest involving

1126
01:01:04,920 --> 01:01:10,440
Speaker 7: his businesses and Doge. SpaceX alone has received fifteen point

1127
01:01:10,440 --> 01:01:14,160
Speaker 7: four billion dollars in government contracts, according to The New

1128
01:01:14,240 --> 01:01:19,160
Speaker 7: York Times. The large reduction in the federal workforce through

1129
01:01:19,280 --> 01:01:22,320
Speaker 7: the combined efforts of doge and schedule F. There is

1130
01:01:22,400 --> 01:01:26,080
Speaker 7: an irrefutable similarity to a plan outlined by New Right

1131
01:01:26,160 --> 01:01:31,120
Speaker 7: blogger Curtis Jarvin, Peter Thiel's favorite philosopher. Last year, Robert

1132
01:01:31,120 --> 01:01:33,960
Speaker 7: Evans did a behind the Bastards on Curtis Yarvin, and

1133
01:01:34,040 --> 01:01:37,240
Speaker 7: you should absolutely check that out for more information. In

1134
01:01:37,280 --> 01:01:40,959
Speaker 7: twenty twenty two, Jarvin outlined how a second Trump term

1135
01:01:41,160 --> 01:01:45,960
Speaker 7: could quote unquote reboot the United States government. This plan

1136
01:01:46,120 --> 01:01:50,680
Speaker 7: amounts to a corporate takeover of government, which subsequently reshapes

1137
01:01:50,720 --> 01:01:54,960
Speaker 7: the structure of government, akin to a corporation. Though in

1138
01:01:55,040 --> 01:01:58,160
Speaker 7: Yarvin's mind, it is not President Trump who assumes the

1139
01:01:58,240 --> 01:02:02,640
Speaker 7: role of CEO. Instead, the President acts as chairman of

1140
01:02:02,680 --> 01:02:06,840
Speaker 7: the board, and before inauguration should select a CEO who

1141
01:02:06,880 --> 01:02:11,480
Speaker 7: is an experienced executive. This appointed CEO could then quote

1142
01:02:11,840 --> 01:02:15,120
Speaker 7: run the executive branch without any interference from Congress or

1143
01:02:15,120 --> 01:02:18,760
Speaker 7: the courts, to quote Jarvin. While President Trump reviews the

1144
01:02:18,760 --> 01:02:23,920
Speaker 7: CEO's performance in the background, Jarvin writes, quote most existing

1145
01:02:24,080 --> 01:02:27,840
Speaker 7: important institutions, public and private will be shut down and

1146
01:02:27,960 --> 01:02:32,160
Speaker 7: replaced with new and efficient systems. Trump will be monitoring

1147
01:02:32,200 --> 01:02:35,840
Speaker 7: this CEO's performance on TV and can fire him if

1148
01:02:36,000 --> 01:02:39,880
Speaker 7: need be unquote. Musk may believe that he has successfully

1149
01:02:39,920 --> 01:02:43,440
Speaker 7: maneuvered Trump into appointing him CEO, but Trump could be

1150
01:02:43,520 --> 01:02:47,120
Speaker 7: well aware of Musk's ambitions, but is keeping him around

1151
01:02:47,240 --> 01:02:51,480
Speaker 7: as an emergency patsy, ready to fire when needed. The

1152
01:02:51,480 --> 01:02:55,080
Speaker 7: Trump admin is currently testing the limits of presidential authority,

1153
01:02:55,480 --> 01:02:58,240
Speaker 7: and once those limits get surpassed by the standards of

1154
01:02:58,280 --> 01:03:02,000
Speaker 7: Senate Republicans, Musk is the easiest guy to blame and

1155
01:03:02,120 --> 01:03:06,400
Speaker 7: push out of the administration's inner circle. The first step

1156
01:03:06,440 --> 01:03:10,600
Speaker 7: in Yarvin's plan has the Trump campaign running on centralizing

1157
01:03:10,720 --> 01:03:15,360
Speaker 7: executive power to eliminate government inefficiency. This was both in

1158
01:03:15,400 --> 01:03:19,120
Speaker 7: line with Project twenty twenty five and Musk's suggestion of

1159
01:03:19,160 --> 01:03:23,120
Speaker 7: an efficiency commission once Trump gets into office. The plan

1160
01:03:23,320 --> 01:03:30,240
Speaker 7: is as follows, purge bureaucracy what Jarvin calls rage retire

1161
01:03:30,480 --> 01:03:35,120
Speaker 7: all government employees. This is essentially being carried out by

1162
01:03:35,160 --> 01:03:38,920
Speaker 7: doge schedule lef and by just pressuring career employees to

1163
01:03:39,000 --> 01:03:45,120
Speaker 7: accept deferred resignation offers. By threatening future mass layoffs, senior

1164
01:03:45,200 --> 01:03:47,960
Speaker 7: level officials have been replaced by a batch of loyal

1165
01:03:48,080 --> 01:03:52,760
Speaker 7: tech oligarchs with links to Musk and Peter Teel. The

1166
01:03:52,800 --> 01:03:56,920
Speaker 7: stupidity of Doge was almost a secret weapon. The cryptocurrency

1167
01:03:57,160 --> 01:04:02,120
Speaker 7: meanness made everyone in respectable society not take the idea seriously.

1168
01:04:02,680 --> 01:04:05,280
Speaker 7: What's the worst an advisory commission could do with no

1169
01:04:05,480 --> 01:04:07,680
Speaker 7: power to enforce its suggestions.

1170
01:04:08,560 --> 01:04:09,000
Speaker 9: Oops.

1171
01:04:09,960 --> 01:04:14,360
Speaker 7: Another step in Yarvin's plan is to nullify elite institutions

1172
01:04:14,360 --> 01:04:18,720
Speaker 7: of power like the media and academia. Musk's takeover of

1173
01:04:18,720 --> 01:04:22,080
Speaker 7: Twitter has gone a long way in altering the country's

1174
01:04:22,120 --> 01:04:26,000
Speaker 7: information ecosystem. The Trump admen seems to be utilizing Steve

1175
01:04:26,040 --> 01:04:30,000
Speaker 7: Bannon's flood the Zone strategy to distract and exhaust the media,

1176
01:04:30,600 --> 01:04:34,680
Speaker 7: as well as more directed attacks. On January thirty, first,

1177
01:04:34,920 --> 01:04:37,800
Speaker 7: the Department of Defense kicked out NBC News, The New

1178
01:04:37,920 --> 01:04:41,960
Speaker 7: York Times, NPR, and Politico from their in house press

1179
01:04:41,960 --> 01:04:45,760
Speaker 7: offices and replace them with One American News, The New

1180
01:04:45,840 --> 01:04:51,480
Speaker 7: York Post, Breitbart, and huff Post. Under direction from Doge,

1181
01:04:51,680 --> 01:04:55,280
Speaker 7: the White House has ordered government agencies to cancel subscriptions

1182
01:04:55,320 --> 01:04:58,919
Speaker 7: to policy news services from multiple news outlets. A White

1183
01:04:58,920 --> 01:05:02,680
Speaker 7: House advisor told Axios, quote, the eye of Sauron is

1184
01:05:02,720 --> 01:05:06,880
Speaker 7: on more than just Politico, It's all the media unquote.

1185
01:05:07,480 --> 01:05:11,000
Speaker 7: In terms of attacks on academia, the federal grant freeze

1186
01:05:11,000 --> 01:05:16,040
Speaker 7: has had devastating effects on university research. Another step in

1187
01:05:16,120 --> 01:05:20,160
Speaker 7: Yarvin's plan is to co opt Congress and ignore the courts.

1188
01:05:21,040 --> 01:05:24,160
Speaker 7: This is where we are at right now. The goal

1189
01:05:24,200 --> 01:05:27,400
Speaker 7: is to reduce both the judicial and legislative branches to

1190
01:05:27,480 --> 01:05:32,120
Speaker 7: being purely ceremonial and advisory, as advocated by Yarvin. So far,

1191
01:05:32,160 --> 01:05:36,160
Speaker 7: the Trump administration has effectively sidestepped the legislative bodies via

1192
01:05:36,200 --> 01:05:39,960
Speaker 7: Elon Musk and Doge. It's highly unlikely Trump would ever

1193
01:05:40,040 --> 01:05:44,000
Speaker 7: be impeached or removed by this Congress. Furthermore, this Congress

1194
01:05:44,040 --> 01:05:48,000
Speaker 7: seems to have willfully given up on their power over

1195
01:05:48,040 --> 01:05:51,920
Speaker 7: the federal budget. To quote a senior government official quote,

1196
01:05:52,320 --> 01:05:55,520
Speaker 7: the real challenge is that Congress is on board for

1197
01:05:55,600 --> 01:06:00,400
Speaker 7: now in losing their own budgetary authority. So far, a

1198
01:06:00,520 --> 01:06:03,880
Speaker 7: loan security guard standing outside you, sayed and the Department

1199
01:06:03,920 --> 01:06:06,720
Speaker 7: of Education has been enough to deter resistance from the

1200
01:06:06,720 --> 01:06:10,360
Speaker 7: Democratic Party. Last week, I interviewed to Derek Black, a

1201
01:06:10,440 --> 01:06:13,840
Speaker 7: constitutional law professor at the University of South Carolina. The

1202
01:06:13,920 --> 01:06:17,400
Speaker 7: full interview will air tomorrow, but here's his short take

1203
01:06:17,560 --> 01:06:19,040
Speaker 7: on the current situation.

1204
01:06:19,720 --> 01:06:23,200
Speaker 1: When Congress is willing to hand the keys over to

1205
01:06:23,240 --> 01:06:28,200
Speaker 1: the president. Then we really no longer really have a democracy,

1206
01:06:28,280 --> 01:06:31,560
Speaker 1: or at least the constitutional democracy that was created, you know,

1207
01:06:31,680 --> 01:06:34,200
Speaker 1: a couple centuries ago. So the bigger danger, I think

1208
01:06:34,320 --> 01:06:39,360
Speaker 1: is that through law itself, Congress sedes more and more

1209
01:06:39,440 --> 01:06:41,960
Speaker 1: power to the president with a new legislation. So if

1210
01:06:42,000 --> 01:06:45,880
Speaker 1: Congress were to pass new legislation giving the president more

1211
01:06:45,920 --> 01:06:48,360
Speaker 1: centralized power, well that would be a concerning thing to me.

1212
01:06:48,920 --> 01:06:49,360
Speaker 11: Right now.

1213
01:06:49,480 --> 01:06:51,600
Speaker 3: The real roadblock is the courts.

1214
01:06:52,400 --> 01:06:55,760
Speaker 7: The Trump administration has already displayed a willingness to ignore

1215
01:06:55,800 --> 01:06:58,640
Speaker 7: the courts based on the continued halting of federal spending

1216
01:06:58,680 --> 01:07:03,360
Speaker 7: and grants order from a US district judge. The Justice

1217
01:07:03,360 --> 01:07:06,400
Speaker 7: Department has argued that the order to resume funding quote

1218
01:07:06,800 --> 01:07:10,320
Speaker 7: contains several ambiguous terms and provisions that could be read

1219
01:07:10,360 --> 01:07:14,600
Speaker 7: to constitute significant intrusions on the executive branch's lawful authorities

1220
01:07:14,920 --> 01:07:19,240
Speaker 7: and the separation of powers unquote. This past weekend, Musk

1221
01:07:19,520 --> 01:07:22,960
Speaker 7: raged against a federal judge who ordered to temporarily restrict

1222
01:07:23,040 --> 01:07:27,240
Speaker 7: doja's access to Treasury Department data. Both Musk and the

1223
01:07:27,280 --> 01:07:30,800
Speaker 7: White House have labeled a judge an activist, with White

1224
01:07:30,840 --> 01:07:35,160
Speaker 7: House spokesperson Harrison Fields calling the order quote absurd and

1225
01:07:35,320 --> 01:07:40,240
Speaker 7: judicial overreach unquote. On x the Everything app, Musk boosted

1226
01:07:40,240 --> 01:07:44,120
Speaker 7: claims calling this a judicial coup and shared an announcement

1227
01:07:44,240 --> 01:07:49,200
Speaker 7: from California Representative darryl Isa to introduce legislation to quote

1228
01:07:49,240 --> 01:07:54,400
Speaker 7: unquote stop these rogue judges. But even without added legislation,

1229
01:07:55,080 --> 01:07:57,960
Speaker 7: Musk and the Trump administration are gearing up to directly

1230
01:07:58,000 --> 01:08:02,560
Speaker 7: defy judicial authority. On Saturday, Musk shared a tweet reading,

1231
01:08:03,200 --> 01:08:05,640
Speaker 7: I don't like the president it sets when you defy

1232
01:08:05,680 --> 01:08:09,200
Speaker 7: a judicial ruling, But I'm just wondering what other options

1233
01:08:09,240 --> 01:08:11,600
Speaker 7: are these judges leaving us if they're going to blatantly

1234
01:08:11,640 --> 01:08:16,400
Speaker 7: disregard the Constitution for their own partisan political goals quote.

1235
01:08:17,120 --> 01:08:20,400
Speaker 7: And On Sunday, Vice President j. D Vance posted a

1236
01:08:20,439 --> 01:08:22,679
Speaker 7: statement undermining judicial power.

1237
01:08:22,800 --> 01:08:23,240
Speaker 11: Quote.

1238
01:08:23,400 --> 01:08:25,439
Speaker 7: If a judge tried to tell a general how to

1239
01:08:25,479 --> 01:08:28,560
Speaker 7: conduct a military operation, that would be illegal. If a

1240
01:08:28,640 --> 01:08:31,200
Speaker 7: judge tried to command the attorney general in how to

1241
01:08:31,320 --> 01:08:35,120
Speaker 7: use her discretion as a prosecutor, that's also illegal. Judges

1242
01:08:35,240 --> 01:08:41,360
Speaker 7: aren't allowed to control executive's legitimate power unquote. So now

1243
01:08:41,439 --> 01:08:44,639
Speaker 7: it all comes down to force. If the executive branch

1244
01:08:44,800 --> 01:08:49,800
Speaker 7: not just ignores judicial authority, but blatantly defies it. Who

1245
01:08:49,800 --> 01:08:52,479
Speaker 7: would be left to enforce the power of the court.

1246
01:08:53,560 --> 01:08:56,640
Speaker 7: That leads us to another step in Yarvin's plan, centralize

1247
01:08:56,680 --> 01:09:00,880
Speaker 7: the police, nationalize local law enforcement to place them under

1248
01:09:00,880 --> 01:09:04,360
Speaker 7: federal control. Trump has flirted with his tactic in the past,

1249
01:09:04,400 --> 01:09:08,280
Speaker 7: when he deputized Washington police as US marshals to kill

1250
01:09:08,320 --> 01:09:12,040
Speaker 7: Michael Rhinol. In twenty twenty, Doge staff threatened to call

1251
01:09:12,160 --> 01:09:14,720
Speaker 7: us marshals when you say to security officials who have

1252
01:09:14,720 --> 01:09:19,040
Speaker 7: since been fired, denied them access to classified systems. Jorvin

1253
01:09:19,080 --> 01:09:21,160
Speaker 7: believes this step is paramount.

1254
01:09:21,439 --> 01:09:21,839
Speaker 11: Quote.

1255
01:09:22,160 --> 01:09:25,760
Speaker 7: Support of the democratic public is a cipher. I think

1256
01:09:25,760 --> 01:09:29,600
Speaker 7: that actually all you need is command of the police unquote,

1257
01:09:30,160 --> 01:09:32,639
Speaker 7: if you have all of the guys with guns who

1258
01:09:32,720 --> 01:09:36,960
Speaker 7: can physically stop you. Support from the public doesn't hurt, though,

1259
01:09:37,439 --> 01:09:41,000
Speaker 7: and if things get tricky, Trump could employ the next

1260
01:09:41,040 --> 01:09:47,040
Speaker 7: step in Yarvin's plan. Mobilize populist support, but crucially, don't

1261
01:09:47,040 --> 01:09:49,600
Speaker 7: wait until you're at your weakest at the end of

1262
01:09:49,640 --> 01:09:53,799
Speaker 7: your term after losing an election under popular mandate, deploy

1263
01:09:53,880 --> 01:09:56,920
Speaker 7: your empowered supporters at the height of your powers to

1264
01:09:56,960 --> 01:10:00,240
Speaker 7: oppose any obstruction from government agencies or the cour sort.

1265
01:10:00,960 --> 01:10:04,760
Speaker 7: Trump may weaponize a Supreme Court ordained presidential immunity and

1266
01:10:04,840 --> 01:10:08,639
Speaker 7: his unrestricted pardon power to make any willing actor carry

1267
01:10:08,640 --> 01:10:12,840
Speaker 7: out his bidding with zero risk of legal consequence. Now,

1268
01:10:12,880 --> 01:10:16,280
Speaker 7: even if Trump himself isn't aware of Jarvin's plan, his

1269
01:10:16,439 --> 01:10:20,360
Speaker 7: vice president certainly is. On a far right podcast in

1270
01:10:20,360 --> 01:10:24,160
Speaker 7: twenty twenty one, JD. Vance laid out a very similar

1271
01:10:24,240 --> 01:10:27,679
Speaker 7: vision for a second Trump term, using what the Peter

1272
01:10:27,800 --> 01:10:33,600
Speaker 7: Teel protege described as a dewocification program to purge bureaucracy.

1273
01:10:33,880 --> 01:10:35,320
Speaker 8: I think Trump is going to run again in twenty

1274
01:10:35,320 --> 01:10:37,240
Speaker 8: twenty four. I think he'll probably win again in twenty

1275
01:10:37,280 --> 01:10:39,840
Speaker 8: twenty four. I think that what Trump should do, like

1276
01:10:39,880 --> 01:10:42,799
Speaker 8: if I was giving him one piece of advice, fire

1277
01:10:43,040 --> 01:10:46,200
Speaker 8: every single mid level bureaucrat, every civil sermon in the

1278
01:10:46,200 --> 01:10:49,799
Speaker 8: administrative state. Replace them with our people. And when the courts,

1279
01:10:49,840 --> 01:10:51,960
Speaker 8: because you will get taken to court. And then when

1280
01:10:51,960 --> 01:10:55,479
Speaker 8: the courts stop, you stand before the country like Andrew

1281
01:10:55,560 --> 01:10:58,120
Speaker 8: Jackson did, and say the Chief Justice has made his ruling,

1282
01:10:58,160 --> 01:10:59,040
Speaker 8: now let him enforce It.

1283
01:11:00,200 --> 01:11:03,759
Speaker 7: Writes that the initial goal of this new administration should

1284
01:11:03,800 --> 01:11:08,200
Speaker 7: not be simply to govern, but to quote figure out

1285
01:11:08,320 --> 01:11:12,080
Speaker 7: what the Trump administration can actually do when it assumes

1286
01:11:12,200 --> 01:11:15,520
Speaker 7: the full constitutional power is given to the chief executive

1287
01:11:15,600 --> 01:11:20,000
Speaker 7: of the executive branch unquote. What the administration can do

1288
01:11:20,160 --> 01:11:24,160
Speaker 7: once they fully seize this power is so incredibly vast.

1289
01:11:24,520 --> 01:11:28,040
Speaker 7: Without checks and balances, all those crazy things Trump tried

1290
01:11:28,080 --> 01:11:30,439
Speaker 7: to do during his first term would be a lot

1291
01:11:30,640 --> 01:11:33,800
Speaker 7: easier to enact, let alone, whatever Musk and the tech

1292
01:11:33,840 --> 01:11:38,000
Speaker 7: oligarchs want out of the United States incorporated. But that's

1293
01:11:38,040 --> 01:11:41,400
Speaker 7: a whole separate topic. The current fight determines the degree

1294
01:11:41,439 --> 01:11:45,160
Speaker 7: to which this power is seized, and Jarvin notes the

1295
01:11:45,160 --> 01:11:46,880
Speaker 7: importance of going all the way.

1296
01:11:47,320 --> 01:11:47,799
Speaker 3: Quote.

1297
01:11:48,200 --> 01:11:51,240
Speaker 7: When Trump in twenty seventeen took office, he took about

1298
01:11:51,760 --> 01:11:55,640
Speaker 7: zero point zero one percent of power. If Trump in

1299
01:11:55,680 --> 01:11:59,240
Speaker 7: twenty twenty one wants to have more than zero point

1300
01:11:59,600 --> 01:12:03,640
Speaker 7: zero zero one percent of power, the only way he

1301
01:12:03,720 --> 01:12:07,040
Speaker 7: can do it is to take one hundred percent, take

1302
01:12:07,080 --> 01:12:09,759
Speaker 7: it all at once, completely legally.

1303
01:12:10,320 --> 01:12:11,200
Speaker 3: The real Donald J.

1304
01:12:11,360 --> 01:12:13,720
Speaker 7: Trump would never have the guts to even think of

1305
01:12:13,800 --> 01:12:18,320
Speaker 7: doing this, and he's just too old unquote. Funny pessimism

1306
01:12:18,400 --> 01:12:21,600
Speaker 7: from Jarvin. There, all of this doesn't even need to

1307
01:12:21,680 --> 01:12:27,360
Speaker 7: benefit average Trump supporters, because Trump's main campaign promise wasn't

1308
01:12:27,560 --> 01:12:32,200
Speaker 7: mass deportations, fixing the economy, or abolishing the Department of Education.

1309
01:12:32,960 --> 01:12:38,240
Speaker 7: It was retribution as extremism. Analyst Jared Holt notes, quote

1310
01:12:38,560 --> 01:12:41,200
Speaker 7: the right got its base so hooked on the idea

1311
01:12:41,240 --> 01:12:44,120
Speaker 7: of revenge. He doesn't even need to pretend that any

1312
01:12:44,160 --> 01:12:47,720
Speaker 7: of this benefits their base in any tangible way. They

1313
01:12:47,800 --> 01:12:50,599
Speaker 7: just have to say it hurts the wrong people, and

1314
01:12:50,680 --> 01:12:52,200
Speaker 7: that satisfies them.

1315
01:12:52,280 --> 01:12:52,800
Speaker 5: Unquote.

1316
01:12:53,680 --> 01:12:56,720
Speaker 7: If Trump and Musk continue to get their way, it

1317
01:12:56,760 --> 01:12:59,840
Speaker 7: could take years to fix. But the past ten years

1318
01:12:59,880 --> 01:13:04,120
Speaker 7: have shown us you can't really return to normal. There

1319
01:13:04,200 --> 01:13:08,160
Speaker 7: probably is no going back. The options are to hunker

1320
01:13:08,280 --> 01:13:11,160
Speaker 7: down and play it slow and try to survive whatever

1321
01:13:11,200 --> 01:13:14,280
Speaker 7: happens in the next two to four years while offering

1322
01:13:14,479 --> 01:13:19,720
Speaker 7: passive resistance, or we accelerate to whatever comes next, put

1323
01:13:19,760 --> 01:13:23,400
Speaker 7: cards on the table, trigger a kinetic confrontation, and fully

1324
01:13:23,439 --> 01:13:28,000
Speaker 7: manifest the results of this constitutional crisis. We are dealing

1325
01:13:28,080 --> 01:13:33,559
Speaker 7: with managing crumbles versus a full system's collapse. Sad face

1326
01:13:33,600 --> 01:13:59,960
Speaker 7: emoji this is it could happen here. I'm Garrison Day.

1327
01:14:01,200 --> 01:14:04,000
Speaker 7: Last week I was working on an essay about how

1328
01:14:04,120 --> 01:14:07,080
Speaker 7: the Trump administration is trying to shut down the Department

1329
01:14:07,120 --> 01:14:12,400
Speaker 7: of Education. Now very quickly that project expanded to being

1330
01:14:12,439 --> 01:14:15,400
Speaker 7: about how Elon Musk is actually trying to internally coop

1331
01:14:15,439 --> 01:14:19,559
Speaker 7: the federal government and become the CEO of the United States.

1332
01:14:20,520 --> 01:14:24,120
Speaker 7: That article is now published on Shatterzone dot substack dot com,

1333
01:14:24,160 --> 01:14:24,919
Speaker 7: and it's also.

1334
01:14:24,760 --> 01:14:26,720
Speaker 11: The previous episode of this podcast.

1335
01:14:27,240 --> 01:14:30,799
Speaker 7: But during my research, I talked with law professor Derek

1336
01:14:30,840 --> 01:14:34,760
Speaker 7: Black about the Department of Education, the state of disunion

1337
01:14:34,840 --> 01:14:40,040
Speaker 7: in the country, and if we still have a democracy already.

1338
01:14:40,080 --> 01:14:42,839
Speaker 7: Some of the things we talked about have begun to happen,

1339
01:14:43,080 --> 01:14:47,080
Speaker 7: like Republicans introducing legislation to expanding executive power, while Trump

1340
01:14:47,160 --> 01:14:50,120
Speaker 7: and Musk flirt with denying the authority of the courts.

1341
01:14:50,960 --> 01:14:54,320
Speaker 7: But I decided to publish the full interview because I

1342
01:14:54,400 --> 01:14:57,919
Speaker 7: believe his perspective is still helpful and the conversational format

1343
01:14:58,120 --> 01:15:00,920
Speaker 7: alters the way we process information compared to me just

1344
01:15:01,160 --> 01:15:05,559
Speaker 7: reading a kind of depressing essay for forty minutes. So,

1345
01:15:05,920 --> 01:15:08,240
Speaker 7: without further ado, here is the interviewing.

1346
01:15:10,080 --> 01:15:10,920
Speaker 5: I'm Derek Black.

1347
01:15:10,960 --> 01:15:13,440
Speaker 1: I'm a professor of law at the University of South Carolina.

1348
01:15:13,720 --> 01:15:16,800
Speaker 1: My area focuses on education, law and policy and really

1349
01:15:16,840 --> 01:15:19,080
Speaker 1: sort of how that relates to democracy. But I teach

1350
01:15:19,320 --> 01:15:22,479
Speaker 1: constitutional law and courses like that, author of a couple

1351
01:15:22,520 --> 01:15:25,720
Speaker 1: of books schoolhouse burning, public education, and the assault on

1352
01:15:25,720 --> 01:15:29,599
Speaker 1: American democracy, and then more recently dangerous learning the South

1353
01:15:29,760 --> 01:15:31,160
Speaker 1: long war on Black literacy.

1354
01:15:31,680 --> 01:15:34,320
Speaker 7: Let's start by discussing what's going on at the Department

1355
01:15:34,320 --> 01:15:37,040
Speaker 7: of Education right now, and maybe let's actually start a

1356
01:15:37,080 --> 01:15:40,719
Speaker 7: little bit further back. Attacks on the Department of Education

1357
01:15:40,800 --> 01:15:45,479
Speaker 7: like are not new. Reagan famously kind of pioneered the

1358
01:15:45,560 --> 01:15:48,439
Speaker 7: rights focus on this, but it's been something they've struggled

1359
01:15:48,479 --> 01:15:52,679
Speaker 7: to deal sizable blows against, especially in terms of wanting

1360
01:15:52,720 --> 01:15:55,240
Speaker 7: to abolish the organization. Could you talk about like the

1361
01:15:55,360 --> 01:15:58,360
Speaker 7: history of conservative attacks against the department?

1362
01:15:58,720 --> 01:16:03,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean there's always been this states rights issue

1363
01:16:03,040 --> 01:16:06,519
Speaker 1: that's been with America since its founding. Obviously was a

1364
01:16:06,520 --> 01:16:08,280
Speaker 1: big part of the Civil War, big part of the

1365
01:16:08,320 --> 01:16:10,240
Speaker 1: Civil rights movement, you know, a big part of the

1366
01:16:10,280 --> 01:16:13,920
Speaker 1: Affordable Healthcare Act debate. So you always have this stage

1367
01:16:14,000 --> 01:16:17,160
Speaker 1: rights argument going on, and at least amongst the folks

1368
01:16:17,200 --> 01:16:20,080
Speaker 1: that are worried about that, public education comes up as

1369
01:16:20,120 --> 01:16:23,960
Speaker 1: being a target because there's this argument always that well,

1370
01:16:24,240 --> 01:16:26,880
Speaker 1: education is not in the federal constitution, so what business

1371
01:16:26,920 --> 01:16:28,960
Speaker 1: does the federal government have to be involved, and so

1372
01:16:29,400 --> 01:16:31,800
Speaker 1: it's really more of a talking point as opposed to

1373
01:16:31,840 --> 01:16:35,120
Speaker 1: any particular substantive reason why they want to get rid

1374
01:16:35,160 --> 01:16:37,320
Speaker 1: of it. But that's really where it's come from. But

1375
01:16:37,680 --> 01:16:41,479
Speaker 1: you know, it's often been not that serious of a critique,

1376
01:16:41,479 --> 01:16:43,679
Speaker 1: but obviously it's gotten very serious here in the last

1377
01:16:43,720 --> 01:16:44,600
Speaker 1: couple of weeks.

1378
01:16:45,080 --> 01:16:48,160
Speaker 7: Yeah, that's the general overall feeling I'm having is that

1379
01:16:48,439 --> 01:16:51,000
Speaker 7: there's a lot of things going on that I would

1380
01:16:51,040 --> 01:16:55,160
Speaker 7: have previously thought are kind of like pipe dreams. Calls

1381
01:16:55,200 --> 01:16:59,000
Speaker 7: to abolish the Department of Education, even this rallying call

1382
01:16:59,040 --> 01:17:01,879
Speaker 7: from the new Right the past years to abolish the FBI,

1383
01:17:02,560 --> 01:17:04,840
Speaker 7: general claims of you know, like draining the swamp, these

1384
01:17:05,080 --> 01:17:08,479
Speaker 7: types of like old it's almost like stereotypical claims that

1385
01:17:08,640 --> 01:17:11,080
Speaker 7: now through musk they've been able to like weasel their

1386
01:17:11,120 --> 01:17:14,840
Speaker 7: way into actually dismantling like large, large systems that make

1387
01:17:14,920 --> 01:17:19,400
Speaker 7: the everyday functionality of the government possible. What should people

1388
01:17:19,439 --> 01:17:22,960
Speaker 7: know right now about the current attacks in the Department

1389
01:17:23,000 --> 01:17:27,439
Speaker 7: of Education? Trump is still allegedly drafting in executive order.

1390
01:17:27,800 --> 01:17:30,360
Speaker 7: He'll probably have to work through Congress, but we'll see

1391
01:17:30,400 --> 01:17:33,000
Speaker 7: the degree to which he even needs to do that

1392
01:17:33,800 --> 01:17:35,200
Speaker 7: what are you worried about like right now, and what

1393
01:17:35,240 --> 01:17:38,080
Speaker 7: do you think people should know about like the current

1394
01:17:38,280 --> 01:17:40,280
Speaker 7: the current attacks on the dewy.

1395
01:17:41,040 --> 01:17:44,360
Speaker 1: Well, there's the sort of immediate worries and then there's

1396
01:17:44,400 --> 01:17:46,880
Speaker 1: the larger worries. The immediate worries I'll have to say,

1397
01:17:46,880 --> 01:17:49,200
Speaker 1: I'm not terribly worried about. I mean, if you look

1398
01:17:49,200 --> 01:17:52,200
Speaker 1: at the reporting that we've seen, it is interesting that

1399
01:17:52,520 --> 01:17:55,200
Speaker 1: the White House seems to distinguish between the things that

1400
01:17:55,240 --> 01:17:58,479
Speaker 1: it can do unilaterally right without Congress, and those things

1401
01:17:58,520 --> 01:18:01,320
Speaker 1: that would need Congress. And I mean, it's a weird

1402
01:18:01,960 --> 01:18:05,880
Speaker 1: silver lining, but that gives me like some like measure

1403
01:18:05,920 --> 01:18:10,000
Speaker 1: of comfortability in this weird, bizarre world, only because you know,

1404
01:18:10,240 --> 01:18:14,160
Speaker 1: two weeks ago the administration was willing to do things

1405
01:18:14,640 --> 01:18:16,559
Speaker 1: that it had no authority to do right, just sort

1406
01:18:16,560 --> 01:18:19,040
Speaker 1: of his claiming authority to do everything. And so there

1407
01:18:19,200 --> 01:18:22,920
Speaker 1: is this at least recognition that there's not unbounded power.

1408
01:18:23,040 --> 01:18:25,840
Speaker 1: So that's sort of the immediate threat is not that

1409
01:18:26,040 --> 01:18:30,200
Speaker 1: huge because the White House or Trump's power over the

1410
01:18:30,240 --> 01:18:32,400
Speaker 1: Department or to close it up is relatively narrow, like

1411
01:18:32,439 --> 01:18:35,519
Speaker 1: most of the Department is established by statute, and he

1412
01:18:35,560 --> 01:18:37,960
Speaker 1: can't just dissolve things or move things around that are

1413
01:18:37,960 --> 01:18:40,280
Speaker 1: created by statute. He can't take money that's for poor

1414
01:18:40,360 --> 01:18:43,280
Speaker 1: kids and spend them on vouchers. Right, these things, you know,

1415
01:18:43,320 --> 01:18:47,560
Speaker 1: the law dictates. And the fact that he's implicitly acknowledging,

1416
01:18:47,960 --> 01:18:51,559
Speaker 1: or rather his advisors or implicitly acknowledging they need Congress's

1417
01:18:51,560 --> 01:18:53,479
Speaker 1: help gives me a little bit of comfort because I

1418
01:18:53,520 --> 01:18:56,800
Speaker 1: think that getting rid of the department is I'm not

1419
01:18:56,840 --> 01:18:59,400
Speaker 1: sure there's a majority in the House for that, but

1420
01:18:59,439 --> 01:19:02,759
Speaker 1: there's certainly not a filibuster, you know, sixty vote majority

1421
01:19:02,760 --> 01:19:05,720
Speaker 1: for that in the Senate. So that's short term. But

1422
01:19:05,800 --> 01:19:08,640
Speaker 1: I think there's something far more disturbing to me, and

1423
01:19:08,640 --> 01:19:12,120
Speaker 1: it's the long term, This sort of idea that there's

1424
01:19:12,160 --> 01:19:15,439
Speaker 1: something illegitimate about the federal role and education, that there's

1425
01:19:15,479 --> 01:19:20,440
Speaker 1: something illegitimate about public education itself. Those are very dangerous ideas.

1426
01:19:20,600 --> 01:19:22,840
Speaker 1: I have a piece that just came out yesterday and

1427
01:19:23,360 --> 01:19:26,720
Speaker 1: Slate that says, look, you know, the federal role in

1428
01:19:26,760 --> 01:19:31,040
Speaker 1: public education predates the Constitution itself. You know, probably no one,

1429
01:19:31,240 --> 01:19:33,759
Speaker 1: not many listeners, probably familiar, ever heard of the Northwest

1430
01:19:33,840 --> 01:19:37,000
Speaker 1: Ordinances of seventeen eighty five and seventeen eighty seven, but

1431
01:19:37,040 --> 01:19:40,560
Speaker 1: before we even had a United States Constitution. This foundational

1432
01:19:40,600 --> 01:19:44,240
Speaker 1: document laid out how our territory is going to become states.

1433
01:19:44,439 --> 01:19:47,960
Speaker 1: And without going through all the details, Congress embeds public

1434
01:19:48,080 --> 01:19:51,200
Speaker 1: education and the very fabric of what it means to

1435
01:19:51,240 --> 01:19:54,479
Speaker 1: be a state before we even have a constitution. And

1436
01:19:54,520 --> 01:19:57,040
Speaker 1: so that's very important. Is where we start at the

1437
01:19:57,120 --> 01:19:59,360
Speaker 1: end of the Civil War, right where we almost lost

1438
01:19:59,360 --> 01:20:03,320
Speaker 1: our democer see Congress as a condition of readmitting Southern

1439
01:20:03,360 --> 01:20:06,040
Speaker 1: states into the Union, says that one of the terms

1440
01:20:06,040 --> 01:20:09,360
Speaker 1: of readmission is that you create public education system and

1441
01:20:09,400 --> 01:20:12,479
Speaker 1: you never take those rights away, right, forcing public education

1442
01:20:12,600 --> 01:20:15,519
Speaker 1: into the South in places where it never had been before.

1443
01:20:15,840 --> 01:20:18,080
Speaker 1: You know, people are more familiar with the civil rights movement.

1444
01:20:18,120 --> 01:20:21,120
Speaker 1: So I won't go through all that, but just to

1445
01:20:21,200 --> 01:20:24,719
Speaker 1: take one more pause, I mean, Congress created a Department

1446
01:20:24,720 --> 01:20:28,800
Speaker 1: of Education in eighteen sixty seven, right to get this

1447
01:20:28,920 --> 01:20:32,600
Speaker 1: public education project off the ground. So this isn't some

1448
01:20:32,840 --> 01:20:36,200
Speaker 1: wild new sort of fantasy of liberals or unions that

1449
01:20:36,200 --> 01:20:38,800
Speaker 1: we need a department so that we can hand over

1450
01:20:38,840 --> 01:20:42,120
Speaker 1: the spoils to teachers. This is an idea about what

1451
01:20:42,200 --> 01:20:45,439
Speaker 1: it means to have democracy in America and public education

1452
01:20:45,960 --> 01:20:48,280
Speaker 1: is a centerpiece of that, and the federal government has

1453
01:20:48,280 --> 01:20:51,000
Speaker 1: been pushing it for two hundred and fifty years. And

1454
01:20:51,040 --> 01:20:52,800
Speaker 1: that's a good thing. It's a good thing.

1455
01:20:53,280 --> 01:20:56,479
Speaker 7: How do you think that relates to the administration's attempts

1456
01:20:56,520 --> 01:20:59,360
Speaker 7: to centralize executive power? Though, Like, if you look at

1457
01:20:59,360 --> 01:21:01,719
Speaker 7: like what happened with you say it, right, this agency

1458
01:21:01,760 --> 01:21:04,160
Speaker 7: that has been has been tried in law that may

1459
01:21:04,200 --> 01:21:08,919
Speaker 7: not be legally abolished now, but they've been effectively abolished,

1460
01:21:08,960 --> 01:21:11,040
Speaker 7: Like all the employees are on leave, it's been hallowed out.

1461
01:21:11,320 --> 01:21:13,040
Speaker 3: It essentially no longer exists.

1462
01:21:13,800 --> 01:21:16,639
Speaker 7: I feel like they're trying to at the very least

1463
01:21:16,760 --> 01:21:21,440
Speaker 7: test the bare limits of executive power and bypass Congress

1464
01:21:21,600 --> 01:21:25,040
Speaker 7: when they can. Part of my fear is like Congress

1465
01:21:25,080 --> 01:21:27,680
Speaker 7: is not willing to fight them on that, Seemingly like

1466
01:21:27,720 --> 01:21:30,439
Speaker 7: they're not willing to call them on that. They're almost

1467
01:21:30,479 --> 01:21:35,120
Speaker 7: willing to acquiesce their like appropriation's ability as well as

1468
01:21:35,120 --> 01:21:37,120
Speaker 7: you know, the ability to have actually have to like

1469
01:21:37,200 --> 01:21:40,280
Speaker 7: remove departments from existence or create new ones.

1470
01:21:40,800 --> 01:21:43,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you're picking up on a thread that's much

1471
01:21:43,040 --> 01:21:47,280
Speaker 1: bigger than a department. Right, So, when Congress is willing

1472
01:21:47,320 --> 01:21:49,880
Speaker 1: to hand the keys over to the president. Then we

1473
01:21:50,000 --> 01:21:52,960
Speaker 1: no longer really have you know, a democracy, or at

1474
01:21:53,040 --> 01:21:56,280
Speaker 1: least the constitutional democracy that was created, you know, a

1475
01:21:56,360 --> 01:21:59,599
Speaker 1: couple of centuries ago here in which the president executes

1476
01:21:59,640 --> 01:22:02,240
Speaker 1: the law. The president doesn't make the law, right, Congress

1477
01:22:02,600 --> 01:22:06,679
Speaker 1: funds programs, not the executive. But if if ultimately Congress

1478
01:22:06,760 --> 01:22:09,760
Speaker 1: is going to shift all that authority over like that,

1479
01:22:09,760 --> 01:22:12,640
Speaker 1: that's a dangerous place for democracy to be. There are

1480
01:22:12,680 --> 01:22:15,840
Speaker 1: no checks anymore. So I think what you're raising up

1481
01:22:15,920 --> 01:22:18,160
Speaker 1: is the fear that there aren't any checks in place.

1482
01:22:18,880 --> 01:22:21,240
Speaker 1: You know, Fortunately, there still is a legal apparatus. I mean,

1483
01:22:21,280 --> 01:22:25,240
Speaker 1: even if Congress isn't standing up shouting and complaining, it's

1484
01:22:25,240 --> 01:22:27,759
Speaker 1: still the case the president can't just do whatever he wants,

1485
01:22:27,760 --> 01:22:30,840
Speaker 1: and hopefully the courts, you know, would would step in.

1486
01:22:30,880 --> 01:22:33,439
Speaker 1: I use the word hopefully. I think courts will step

1487
01:22:33,439 --> 01:22:36,519
Speaker 1: in to limit his ability to do things that go

1488
01:22:36,560 --> 01:22:39,679
Speaker 1: beyond to statutory power. So the bigger danger, I think

1489
01:22:39,800 --> 01:22:44,800
Speaker 1: is that through law itself, Congress seeds more and more

1490
01:22:44,920 --> 01:22:47,439
Speaker 1: power to the president with a new legislation. So if

1491
01:22:47,439 --> 01:22:51,360
Speaker 1: Congress were to pass new legislation giving the president more

1492
01:22:51,360 --> 01:22:53,800
Speaker 1: centralized power, well that would be a concerning thing to me.

1493
01:22:54,360 --> 01:22:56,040
Speaker 1: Let me just stop and we'll get to your next

1494
01:22:56,080 --> 01:22:58,880
Speaker 1: question to go. But we have a larger phenomenon that's

1495
01:22:58,960 --> 01:23:01,920
Speaker 1: just it's not just about Trump, and people don't necessarily

1496
01:23:01,960 --> 01:23:05,280
Speaker 1: realize this. I mean, look, I don't think that President

1497
01:23:05,439 --> 01:23:09,560
Speaker 1: Obama was a dictator or had authoritarian tendencies. I was

1498
01:23:09,600 --> 01:23:12,840
Speaker 1: part of the Obama Biden transition team, but I testified

1499
01:23:12,880 --> 01:23:15,679
Speaker 1: against Arnie Duncan in a case or against the United

1500
01:23:15,680 --> 01:23:19,240
Speaker 1: States Department of Education in twenty twelve or fourteen or

1501
01:23:19,280 --> 01:23:22,559
Speaker 1: something like that, because the department was taking power that

1502
01:23:22,640 --> 01:23:24,840
Speaker 1: it clearly did not have in regard to a no

1503
01:23:24,960 --> 01:23:27,680
Speaker 1: Child Left Behind waivers. And you know, I told the

1504
01:23:27,720 --> 01:23:30,120
Speaker 1: current administration, as much as I hate it, right, I

1505
01:23:30,160 --> 01:23:33,080
Speaker 1: wish we could just wipe away student debt. I feel

1506
01:23:33,080 --> 01:23:36,240
Speaker 1: bad for my students who have huge debt. But I said,

1507
01:23:36,360 --> 01:23:38,880
Speaker 1: it is beyond the president's power to just wipe away

1508
01:23:38,920 --> 01:23:41,200
Speaker 1: all this debt, and they did it anyway. The real

1509
01:23:41,240 --> 01:23:45,400
Speaker 1: point here is that both Democrats and Republicans have been

1510
01:23:45,520 --> 01:23:48,800
Speaker 1: asking things of their presidents that their presidents don't have

1511
01:23:48,920 --> 01:23:51,639
Speaker 1: the power to do, and their presidents are doing it anyway, right,

1512
01:23:51,680 --> 01:23:55,160
Speaker 1: And it's because our Congress is broken. Our Congress isn't

1513
01:23:55,200 --> 01:23:58,439
Speaker 1: doing its job. So citizens are demanding that our presidents

1514
01:23:58,439 --> 01:24:00,280
Speaker 1: do things that they really don't have the power too.

1515
01:24:00,880 --> 01:24:02,920
Speaker 7: And that's like the big thing that I'm concerned about

1516
01:24:03,040 --> 01:24:04,920
Speaker 7: is we talk about these things that presidents are not

1517
01:24:04,960 --> 01:24:08,040
Speaker 7: quote unquote like allowed to do. And I feel like

1518
01:24:08,040 --> 01:24:10,719
Speaker 7: like both Trump and Muskre now are are speed running

1519
01:24:10,760 --> 01:24:13,679
Speaker 7: like the limits of executive power, and they are willing

1520
01:24:13,760 --> 01:24:16,000
Speaker 7: to test the boundaries a little bit a little bit

1521
01:24:16,000 --> 01:24:20,000
Speaker 7: more than previous presidents, and they're willing to break the

1522
01:24:20,040 --> 01:24:24,760
Speaker 7: government temporarily to like their goals be enacted. And at

1523
01:24:24,760 --> 01:24:28,080
Speaker 7: a certain point, it's really tricky when the thing that

1524
01:24:28,120 --> 01:24:30,280
Speaker 7: you always hear is, you know, like hopefully the courts

1525
01:24:30,280 --> 01:24:33,559
Speaker 7: will step in, hopefully they'll do something. If things get

1526
01:24:33,560 --> 01:24:36,400
Speaker 7: really bad, who will like literally stop them in terms

1527
01:24:36,439 --> 01:24:39,080
Speaker 7: of like the courts told them to halt the funding freeze,

1528
01:24:39,360 --> 01:24:41,680
Speaker 7: and there's there's still grants that they were refusing to

1529
01:24:41,760 --> 01:24:45,519
Speaker 7: issue that were already approved legally need to be followed

1530
01:24:45,520 --> 01:24:48,400
Speaker 7: through on that they are still withholding. And it's really

1531
01:24:48,439 --> 01:24:50,519
Speaker 7: frightening when it comes down to like basic level of

1532
01:24:50,600 --> 01:24:54,800
Speaker 7: like is there people military police who will enforce this

1533
01:24:54,880 --> 01:24:57,680
Speaker 7: that things get really bad? That's something I don't have

1534
01:24:57,760 --> 01:24:59,559
Speaker 7: like complete confidence in anymore.

1535
01:25:00,000 --> 01:25:02,479
Speaker 1: Well, you know, I deal with this every year at

1536
01:25:02,479 --> 01:25:04,880
Speaker 1: the beginning of my constitutional law class. Right, this is

1537
01:25:04,920 --> 01:25:09,320
Speaker 1: not a new problem. It seems more real and frightening,

1538
01:25:09,400 --> 01:25:10,800
Speaker 1: but it's not a new problem. And so what I

1539
01:25:10,920 --> 01:25:14,439
Speaker 1: tell my constitutional law students is that the rule of

1540
01:25:14,520 --> 01:25:19,120
Speaker 1: law doesn't exist because of courts. Right, it doesn't exist

1541
01:25:19,200 --> 01:25:22,000
Speaker 1: because of police officers. Right, that the rule of law,

1542
01:25:22,160 --> 01:25:24,840
Speaker 1: when push comes to shove, exists in the hearts and

1543
01:25:24,920 --> 01:25:29,440
Speaker 1: minds of Americans, and if they don't believe in it,

1544
01:25:29,479 --> 01:25:30,320
Speaker 1: all is lost.

1545
01:25:30,800 --> 01:25:31,000
Speaker 7: Right.

1546
01:25:31,080 --> 01:25:34,400
Speaker 1: So, for when Brown versus Board of Education was decided,

1547
01:25:34,400 --> 01:25:38,720
Speaker 1: it was reportedly the case that the President said, you know,

1548
01:25:38,960 --> 01:25:41,920
Speaker 1: if the court wants to desegregate schools, let it do

1549
01:25:41,960 --> 01:25:44,960
Speaker 1: it itself. Because guess what, what's the Supreme Court. It's

1550
01:25:45,120 --> 01:25:49,439
Speaker 1: nine old people in one building with a handful of

1551
01:25:49,520 --> 01:25:52,120
Speaker 1: Capitol police. Like, they can't do anything, don't have a

1552
01:25:52,120 --> 01:25:55,719
Speaker 1: power to do anything. Right, So, our entire system really

1553
01:25:56,240 --> 01:25:58,919
Speaker 1: rests on good faith, or as I tell my students,

1554
01:25:58,960 --> 01:26:02,559
Speaker 1: like what is due to something you know, President Trump

1555
01:26:02,680 --> 01:26:05,840
Speaker 1: or Biden or whoever had done. The Federal District Court

1556
01:26:06,000 --> 01:26:11,280
Speaker 1: issued an order directing us marshals to take President Trump

1557
01:26:11,439 --> 01:26:14,759
Speaker 1: into a custody, so that order goes out. The marshals

1558
01:26:14,760 --> 01:26:17,000
Speaker 1: receive it, they march over to the White House. They

1559
01:26:17,000 --> 01:26:19,000
Speaker 1: come in the door and they say, we are here

1560
01:26:19,400 --> 01:26:22,960
Speaker 1: to take the president. Signed and it's already been fast

1561
01:26:22,960 --> 01:26:26,240
Speaker 1: tracked by Supreme Court, signed by the Supreme Court. The

1562
01:26:26,360 --> 01:26:28,640
Speaker 1: answer to whether we'll just use Biden, the answer to

1563
01:26:28,640 --> 01:26:32,040
Speaker 1: whether President Biden is escorted out of the White House

1564
01:26:32,479 --> 01:26:35,760
Speaker 1: by US marshals is not a function of military it's

1565
01:26:35,800 --> 01:26:38,760
Speaker 1: not a function of police power. It's a function of

1566
01:26:38,800 --> 01:26:41,680
Speaker 1: when that piece of paper is held up, does the

1567
01:26:41,720 --> 01:26:47,400
Speaker 1: secret service member believe that the rule of law exceeds

1568
01:26:47,439 --> 01:26:49,760
Speaker 1: his loyalty to the man standing behind him.

1569
01:26:49,800 --> 01:26:51,120
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's where it's at.

1570
01:26:51,120 --> 01:26:53,880
Speaker 1: Right, And so you know, it really is a good

1571
01:26:53,880 --> 01:26:56,960
Speaker 1: faith litmus test. And I think we used to live

1572
01:26:57,000 --> 01:27:01,599
Speaker 1: in an era when I think we all had maybe

1573
01:27:01,680 --> 01:27:05,040
Speaker 1: more faith in the idea that people put fidelity and

1574
01:27:05,080 --> 01:27:08,560
Speaker 1: commitment to the Constitution and the law above personal loyalty.

1575
01:27:09,040 --> 01:27:11,559
Speaker 1: But we increasingly live in a Congress and in a

1576
01:27:11,600 --> 01:27:14,000
Speaker 1: world in a situation when it seems that people put

1577
01:27:14,439 --> 01:27:17,240
Speaker 1: personal loyalty above the Constitution.

1578
01:27:17,360 --> 01:27:28,719
Speaker 10: At times, JD.

1579
01:27:28,880 --> 01:27:32,559
Speaker 7: Vance was interviewed on a far right podcast about like

1580
01:27:32,800 --> 01:27:36,920
Speaker 7: two or three years ago, and he expressed desire for

1581
01:27:37,040 --> 01:27:40,800
Speaker 7: what he called a quote unquote dewocification program. Jahan like,

1582
01:27:41,400 --> 01:27:45,320
Speaker 7: sounds silly, but this is basically happening now. He extrapolated

1583
01:27:45,320 --> 01:27:47,599
Speaker 7: and said, quote, I think Trump is going to run

1584
01:27:47,640 --> 01:27:49,960
Speaker 7: again in twenty twenty four. I think what Trump should

1585
01:27:50,000 --> 01:27:52,400
Speaker 7: do if I was giving him one piece of advice,

1586
01:27:52,880 --> 01:27:56,320
Speaker 7: fire every single mid level bureaucrat, every civil servant in

1587
01:27:56,320 --> 01:28:00,439
Speaker 7: the administrative state. Replaced them with our people. When the

1588
01:28:00,479 --> 01:28:04,280
Speaker 7: courts stop, you stand before the country and say, the

1589
01:28:04,360 --> 01:28:07,680
Speaker 7: Chief Justice has made his ruling, now let him enforce it.

1590
01:28:09,080 --> 01:28:10,840
Speaker 7: And I feel like we're getting closer and closer to

1591
01:28:11,000 --> 01:28:12,000
Speaker 7: this scenario.

1592
01:28:12,320 --> 01:28:15,360
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, where did jd. Vance make this statement at

1593
01:28:15,360 --> 01:28:16,000
Speaker 1: what context?

1594
01:28:16,200 --> 01:28:19,759
Speaker 7: On Jack Murphy's podcast Jack Murphy is like a fart commentator.

1595
01:28:20,439 --> 01:28:23,719
Speaker 7: Vance is invoking the political philosophy of Curtis Jarvin, who's

1596
01:28:23,760 --> 01:28:27,040
Speaker 7: becoming increasingly popular in the New Right. While lots of

1597
01:28:27,080 --> 01:28:30,360
Speaker 7: what Must and Trump by extension have been doing the

1598
01:28:30,400 --> 01:28:33,280
Speaker 7: past few weeks is taken pretty directly out of Curtis

1599
01:28:33,400 --> 01:28:36,840
Speaker 7: Jarvin's playbook for seizing executive power. And I feel like

1600
01:28:36,840 --> 01:28:39,840
Speaker 7: we're getting closer and closer to this, and so much

1601
01:28:39,840 --> 01:28:43,200
Speaker 7: of what's happening in various agencies it is about proving

1602
01:28:43,240 --> 01:28:45,200
Speaker 7: loyalty to Trump so that if there is some kind

1603
01:28:45,200 --> 01:28:50,200
Speaker 7: of constitutional confrontation, people side with them. DOGE is basically

1604
01:28:50,560 --> 01:28:55,439
Speaker 7: installing loyalty tests and running through communications to see what

1605
01:28:55,720 --> 01:28:59,280
Speaker 7: the loyalty to Trump is For different levels of administrative

1606
01:28:59,320 --> 01:29:03,519
Speaker 7: employees the FBI are negotiations to stay on, but only

1607
01:29:03,600 --> 01:29:07,120
Speaker 7: if they can prove their loyalty to the president. And

1608
01:29:07,200 --> 01:29:10,200
Speaker 7: like it's it's all of these scenarios that again, like

1609
01:29:10,400 --> 01:29:12,519
Speaker 7: originally would be kind of far fetched. When you're hearing

1610
01:29:12,560 --> 01:29:15,280
Speaker 7: someone like JD. Vance talk about this a few years

1611
01:29:15,280 --> 01:29:17,559
Speaker 7: ago on some like right wing podcast, that's one thing

1612
01:29:17,920 --> 01:29:20,639
Speaker 7: to watch this like happen in real time. For people

1613
01:29:20,680 --> 01:29:22,679
Speaker 7: like me who study like this type of like more

1614
01:29:22,720 --> 01:29:26,120
Speaker 7: like esoteric far right political theory, it's kind of surreal

1615
01:29:26,640 --> 01:29:28,360
Speaker 7: to watch the type of thing that you've been like

1616
01:29:28,400 --> 01:29:31,559
Speaker 7: writing about and thinking about, like on background for years

1617
01:29:32,040 --> 01:29:35,320
Speaker 7: now happen. I just kind of rambled there, But do

1618
01:29:35,320 --> 01:29:37,160
Speaker 7: you have any like, I guess thoughts on like this

1619
01:29:37,280 --> 01:29:39,840
Speaker 7: idea that like Vance is talking about in terms of

1620
01:29:39,840 --> 01:29:42,080
Speaker 7: like creating this constitutional crisis.

1621
01:29:42,560 --> 01:29:47,360
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, look, I tend to be I tend

1622
01:29:47,400 --> 01:29:49,840
Speaker 1: to be the guy in the room that says, let's

1623
01:29:49,880 --> 01:29:53,720
Speaker 1: not let's not overreact, let's let's see what happens. You

1624
01:29:53,800 --> 01:29:57,240
Speaker 1: know that there's a lot of you know, institutional history,

1625
01:29:57,280 --> 01:30:00,120
Speaker 1: and there's a lot of Americans who I think the

1626
01:30:00,160 --> 01:30:02,120
Speaker 1: majority of good and decent people, and they don't they

1627
01:30:02,160 --> 01:30:04,920
Speaker 1: don't want authoritarianism. So this, this is me, right, this

1628
01:30:05,000 --> 01:30:08,720
Speaker 1: is my predisposition. But a week or so ago, I

1629
01:30:08,760 --> 01:30:12,880
Speaker 1: had a huge crisis of confidence, should we say, there

1630
01:30:12,880 --> 01:30:16,320
Speaker 1: were just a few events in the news that I

1631
01:30:16,479 --> 01:30:19,880
Speaker 1: was just like, I just never thought that this would

1632
01:30:20,040 --> 01:30:22,680
Speaker 1: happen in America. I never thought a governor would I mean,

1633
01:30:22,840 --> 01:30:24,439
Speaker 1: some of this was what governors were doing. I never

1634
01:30:24,479 --> 01:30:26,400
Speaker 1: thought a governor would do that. I never thought a

1635
01:30:26,400 --> 01:30:28,240
Speaker 1: president would do that. I just never thought, you know,

1636
01:30:28,360 --> 01:30:30,439
Speaker 1: never thought, never thought. And so I said to myself,

1637
01:30:30,479 --> 01:30:34,640
Speaker 1: you know, are any of my opinions or projections you know,

1638
01:30:34,840 --> 01:30:38,000
Speaker 1: valid anymore? Because I'm the guy who never thought? And

1639
01:30:38,040 --> 01:30:40,240
Speaker 1: so that was that was you know, that was a

1640
01:30:40,240 --> 01:30:42,640
Speaker 1: tough twenty four hours for me. I'll have to say. So,

1641
01:30:43,160 --> 01:30:46,080
Speaker 1: you know, I don't know if like I just rebooted

1642
01:30:46,400 --> 01:30:51,200
Speaker 1: and for self sanity and move forward, or you know,

1643
01:30:51,840 --> 01:30:54,759
Speaker 1: whether there is still some truth and reason to believe

1644
01:30:55,080 --> 01:30:57,680
Speaker 1: in certain stability. And I mean, I will say this,

1645
01:30:58,200 --> 01:31:00,639
Speaker 1: you know, as we started this conversation, and the fact

1646
01:31:00,800 --> 01:31:04,120
Speaker 1: that the White House is conceding that it can't do

1647
01:31:04,240 --> 01:31:06,680
Speaker 1: everything to the Department of Education that it wants to

1648
01:31:06,720 --> 01:31:09,920
Speaker 1: do without Congress is a good thing. If you read

1649
01:31:09,960 --> 01:31:14,519
Speaker 1: the five executive orders for that they've already issued there,

1650
01:31:14,520 --> 01:31:17,760
Speaker 1: it's a good thing that actually, if you read them carefully,

1651
01:31:18,560 --> 01:31:23,719
Speaker 1: it's mostly directing appointees to think about stuff, not actually

1652
01:31:23,840 --> 01:31:26,800
Speaker 1: do stuff, but to think about stuff. And of course

1653
01:31:26,840 --> 01:31:30,360
Speaker 1: the president can appoint them to think about stuff. If

1654
01:31:30,360 --> 01:31:32,880
Speaker 1: they do the stuff they're thinking about, that becomes a problem.

1655
01:31:32,880 --> 01:31:35,120
Speaker 1: But again it is this sort of like can I

1656
01:31:35,200 --> 01:31:38,639
Speaker 1: grab a headline about what would sound like an awful

1657
01:31:39,400 --> 01:31:41,320
Speaker 1: you know reality, But really, all I've done is type

1658
01:31:41,320 --> 01:31:43,639
Speaker 1: of to think about that reality. You know, that gives

1659
01:31:43,680 --> 01:31:49,280
Speaker 1: me some faith, right And notwithstanding the fact that this

1660
01:31:49,439 --> 01:31:53,600
Speaker 1: United States Supreme Court, you know, granted an immunity to

1661
01:31:54,200 --> 01:31:57,960
Speaker 1: all presidents that I never could have imagined. You know,

1662
01:31:58,040 --> 01:32:01,880
Speaker 1: this court does you know, issue opinions that surprise us

1663
01:32:02,000 --> 01:32:04,840
Speaker 1: every single term, and they line up with the rule

1664
01:32:04,880 --> 01:32:08,080
Speaker 1: of law. It's just it's unpredictable to some extent which

1665
01:32:08,080 --> 01:32:10,479
Speaker 1: which opinions those are going to be. So I have

1666
01:32:10,640 --> 01:32:13,920
Speaker 1: this faith, you know, these sort of pieces of of

1667
01:32:13,960 --> 01:32:17,360
Speaker 1: the puzzle that still suggests we're still democracy and are

1668
01:32:17,360 --> 01:32:19,760
Speaker 1: going to remain one. But you know, I have I

1669
01:32:19,800 --> 01:32:21,840
Speaker 1: have my really bad days. I think, like you know,

1670
01:32:21,920 --> 01:32:23,280
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people have a bad day

1671
01:32:23,320 --> 01:32:24,920
Speaker 1: every day right now. It's you know, I just feel

1672
01:32:24,920 --> 01:32:28,000
Speaker 1: thankful minor mine or fewer and further between than others.

1673
01:32:28,040 --> 01:32:30,479
Speaker 1: And maybe that's just psychological coping. I don't know.

1674
01:32:41,320 --> 01:32:44,800
Speaker 7: Let's let's I guess clip we're talking about disunion and

1675
01:32:44,800 --> 01:32:47,479
Speaker 7: and how that relates to the general feeling I think

1676
01:32:47,520 --> 01:32:49,920
Speaker 7: a lot of people are experiencing around the country as

1677
01:32:49,920 --> 01:32:52,360
Speaker 7: well as you know, linking back again to the attacks

1678
01:32:52,360 --> 01:32:53,400
Speaker 7: on Department of Education.

1679
01:32:54,320 --> 01:32:54,519
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1680
01:32:54,560 --> 01:32:56,519
Speaker 1: So I spent a good a pretty good deal of

1681
01:32:56,600 --> 01:33:00,280
Speaker 1: time on this disunion question in my new book, Dangerously Learning,

1682
01:33:00,360 --> 01:33:03,200
Speaker 1: because I'm most of that book is focused on the

1683
01:33:03,240 --> 01:33:05,880
Speaker 1: three decades leading up to the Civil War, so that

1684
01:33:05,880 --> 01:33:08,599
Speaker 1: like the Civil War doesn't just happen overnight, it happens

1685
01:33:08,600 --> 01:33:11,799
Speaker 1: over the course of late eighteen twenties to the eighteen

1686
01:33:11,880 --> 01:33:15,160
Speaker 1: sixty with the South is saber rattling over and over again,

1687
01:33:15,200 --> 01:33:18,920
Speaker 1: openly talking about disunion. Right, so that you had a

1688
01:33:19,040 --> 01:33:21,280
Speaker 1: South that actually was diverse in lots of ways in

1689
01:33:21,280 --> 01:33:24,640
Speaker 1: its opinions about various things. I'm not going to say that,

1690
01:33:23,840 --> 01:33:26,800
Speaker 1: you know that there were a bunch of abolitions, but

1691
01:33:26,840 --> 01:33:30,160
Speaker 1: there was a manumissioned society in North Carolina in eighteen

1692
01:33:30,200 --> 01:33:34,040
Speaker 1: twenty nine that had I think sixteen hundred members. Right.

1693
01:33:34,479 --> 01:33:38,240
Speaker 1: The very idea of sixteen hundred you know, anti slavery

1694
01:33:38,280 --> 01:33:40,840
Speaker 1: advocates in North Carolina in the eighteen twenties is shocking

1695
01:33:40,880 --> 01:33:43,599
Speaker 1: to a lot of people, right, But ten years later,

1696
01:33:43,680 --> 01:33:45,880
Speaker 1: only twelve people show up to the final meeting, right,

1697
01:33:45,920 --> 01:33:48,439
Speaker 1: So you had something that changed there, right. And so

1698
01:33:48,439 --> 01:33:51,240
Speaker 1: you have this sort of period of escalating disunion and

1699
01:33:51,360 --> 01:33:57,960
Speaker 1: censorship and propaganda and sort of policing what is publicly

1700
01:33:58,280 --> 01:34:02,080
Speaker 1: you know, acceptable commentary in the South. All this stuff

1701
01:34:02,120 --> 01:34:05,200
Speaker 1: is happening sort of going in and you know, editing

1702
01:34:05,200 --> 01:34:08,559
Speaker 1: their sort of censoring textbooks, you know, demanding that books

1703
01:34:08,560 --> 01:34:10,559
Speaker 1: only be written by Southerners. Like, oh, I make a

1704
01:34:10,560 --> 01:34:12,000
Speaker 1: go on and on and on. We don't have time

1705
01:34:12,040 --> 01:34:15,920
Speaker 1: for it. What I point out though, in my analysis

1706
01:34:15,960 --> 01:34:18,120
Speaker 1: of what's going on, you know right now, over the

1707
01:34:18,240 --> 01:34:21,760
Speaker 1: last few years of education, is that there are a

1708
01:34:21,880 --> 01:34:25,680
Speaker 1: lot of policies that are attacking public education in the

1709
01:34:25,720 --> 01:34:27,960
Speaker 1: way that they previously had, and a lot of them

1710
01:34:27,960 --> 01:34:32,720
Speaker 1: are symbolic of disunion instincts, right, sort of just sort

1711
01:34:32,760 --> 01:34:36,639
Speaker 1: of anti government, right, anti sort of whatever the current

1712
01:34:36,640 --> 01:34:40,360
Speaker 1: culture is. And then there's actually policies that I argue

1713
01:34:40,400 --> 01:34:43,080
Speaker 1: are facilitating disunion. And one of those that I talk

1714
01:34:43,120 --> 01:34:46,280
Speaker 1: about is our public school voucher. I say, private school vouchers.

1715
01:34:46,800 --> 01:34:50,840
Speaker 1: You are so upset with You're so raging at the

1716
01:34:50,880 --> 01:34:54,040
Speaker 1: public school system that we need private school vouchers, right,

1717
01:34:54,360 --> 01:34:58,840
Speaker 1: and we are effectively paying, We're going to pay individuals

1718
01:34:59,439 --> 01:35:02,720
Speaker 1: to leave the public school system. And I call this

1719
01:35:02,800 --> 01:35:05,439
Speaker 1: a coded call for disunion, even if people don't think

1720
01:35:05,520 --> 01:35:08,439
Speaker 1: that's what they're doing. If we look back at where

1721
01:35:08,479 --> 01:35:11,879
Speaker 1: we started this conversation, which is institution of public education

1722
01:35:12,080 --> 01:35:15,559
Speaker 1: as something upon which American democracy has been built. Of course,

1723
01:35:15,600 --> 01:35:17,600
Speaker 1: it has lots of flaws and it wasn't perfect, but

1724
01:35:17,640 --> 01:35:20,280
Speaker 1: it's been part of how we build a democracy. It's

1725
01:35:20,320 --> 01:35:24,360
Speaker 1: always been a bipartisan project. Now becoming the thing that

1726
01:35:24,400 --> 01:35:27,280
Speaker 1: we rage against now becoming the thing in which we

1727
01:35:27,320 --> 01:35:30,960
Speaker 1: are going to finance exit from. Right, this is a

1728
01:35:31,000 --> 01:35:36,800
Speaker 1: step towards disunion from a fundamental institution of American democracy.

1729
01:35:37,000 --> 01:35:41,439
Speaker 1: What happens to us if they actually execute on that plan.

1730
01:35:41,880 --> 01:35:44,639
Speaker 1: I shudder to think about where we might be, because it's

1731
01:35:44,680 --> 01:35:47,200
Speaker 1: not just some private school that's the equivalent of the

1732
01:35:47,240 --> 01:35:50,200
Speaker 1: public school. We're talking about people on the public dollar

1733
01:35:50,240 --> 01:35:54,920
Speaker 1: retreating into their religious silos, into their racial silos, into

1734
01:35:54,960 --> 01:35:59,200
Speaker 1: their culture silos. And if there's anything I think that

1735
01:35:59,280 --> 01:36:02,000
Speaker 1: we could all agree on, is listening to only the

1736
01:36:02,000 --> 01:36:04,479
Speaker 1: people that you like on Twitter or listening only to

1737
01:36:04,520 --> 01:36:06,960
Speaker 1: the people that you like for the evening news is

1738
01:36:07,000 --> 01:36:10,320
Speaker 1: what got us here. And if what we have is

1739
01:36:10,560 --> 01:36:15,679
Speaker 1: education that becomes the equivalent of MSNBC and Fox News

1740
01:36:15,680 --> 01:36:19,599
Speaker 1: and Newsmax and you know whatever else, like that is

1741
01:36:19,760 --> 01:36:22,560
Speaker 1: a dangerous place. I don't know how we build democracy

1742
01:36:22,640 --> 01:36:24,400
Speaker 1: on such a system.

1743
01:36:24,439 --> 01:36:25,840
Speaker 3: What's the solution here?

1744
01:36:26,439 --> 01:36:30,040
Speaker 7: I mean, like beyond beyond people diversifying where they get

1745
01:36:30,040 --> 01:36:33,120
Speaker 7: their media from, and like for vast pats of the country,

1746
01:36:33,160 --> 01:36:36,320
Speaker 7: I think that that line's been crossed a long time ago.

1747
01:36:36,640 --> 01:36:39,320
Speaker 7: If you look at the way like Twitter functions, the

1748
01:36:39,400 --> 01:36:42,599
Speaker 7: way that people just exist in their bubbles and are

1749
01:36:42,640 --> 01:36:45,679
Speaker 7: happy to like people don't want to hear anything else,

1750
01:36:46,160 --> 01:36:50,200
Speaker 7: and with the most hostility coming from like both extreme ends. Yeah,

1751
01:36:50,240 --> 01:36:51,880
Speaker 7: I don't know how to get around this problem. This

1752
01:36:51,920 --> 01:36:53,840
Speaker 7: is something that you know, we've thought about a lot

1753
01:36:53,920 --> 01:36:57,439
Speaker 7: the past eight years, but certainly longer.

1754
01:36:57,880 --> 01:37:01,360
Speaker 1: Well, I'll say this, you know, public school can't solve

1755
01:37:01,400 --> 01:37:03,760
Speaker 1: all of the democracy's problem. You know, be a fool

1756
01:37:03,800 --> 01:37:05,479
Speaker 1: to say otherwise. But if what we're doing is talking

1757
01:37:05,479 --> 01:37:08,720
Speaker 1: about education itself, I think number one is that I

1758
01:37:08,760 --> 01:37:13,440
Speaker 1: think our leaders need to understand better understand the dangers

1759
01:37:13,439 --> 01:37:17,000
Speaker 1: of you know, vouchers for instance, like right now and

1760
01:37:17,040 --> 01:37:19,120
Speaker 1: I'm writing about this, like they think it's just a

1761
01:37:19,160 --> 01:37:21,080
Speaker 1: policy dispute, and like if you just look at the

1762
01:37:21,120 --> 01:37:23,120
Speaker 1: surface level, it's like, well, who cares if we give

1763
01:37:23,160 --> 01:37:26,200
Speaker 1: some more vouchers and that makes the most far reaches

1764
01:37:26,240 --> 01:37:28,360
Speaker 1: of our party happy. But like I think sort of

1765
01:37:28,640 --> 01:37:32,160
Speaker 1: really stepping back and appreciating how dangerous this is to

1766
01:37:32,200 --> 01:37:35,120
Speaker 1: our democracy is step one. That's hard, right, I'm talking

1767
01:37:35,120 --> 01:37:37,320
Speaker 1: about teaching adults to see things differently than what they

1768
01:37:37,360 --> 01:37:40,200
Speaker 1: currently see them. But as to our schools, I mean,

1769
01:37:40,200 --> 01:37:42,840
Speaker 1: I've got a little bit of stiff medicine for both sides.

1770
01:37:42,880 --> 01:37:46,120
Speaker 1: I mean, I do think that in the push for

1771
01:37:46,280 --> 01:37:48,479
Speaker 1: more justice in our public schools, and I think we

1772
01:37:48,520 --> 01:37:50,720
Speaker 1: do need. I mean, that's what I've devoted my career to.

1773
01:37:51,479 --> 01:37:54,360
Speaker 1: I do think that, Well, I don't think our schools

1774
01:37:54,360 --> 01:37:56,639
Speaker 1: did any of the any of the awful stuff that

1775
01:37:56,720 --> 01:37:59,240
Speaker 1: you know that the right has said, but I do

1776
01:37:59,280 --> 01:38:02,479
Speaker 1: think that they maybe were not as open to people

1777
01:38:02,560 --> 01:38:05,360
Speaker 1: disagreeing with them as they should have been. And what

1778
01:38:05,400 --> 01:38:08,400
Speaker 1: I really mean is in the push for justice, I

1779
01:38:08,439 --> 01:38:11,960
Speaker 1: think there was a bit of shutting down conversation. Not

1780
01:38:12,080 --> 01:38:14,680
Speaker 1: teaching children to reach their own conclusions, but giving them

1781
01:38:14,680 --> 01:38:17,320
Speaker 1: conclusions and expecting them to reach them. And so one

1782
01:38:17,320 --> 01:38:19,080
Speaker 1: of the things I'm working on my new book is that, like,

1783
01:38:19,080 --> 01:38:22,559
Speaker 1: I really think we have to rethink how we teach history,

1784
01:38:22,920 --> 01:38:26,000
Speaker 1: you know, how we teach literature. Maybe not so much literature.

1785
01:38:26,000 --> 01:38:28,040
Speaker 1: I think our literature teachers are pretty good, but rethink

1786
01:38:28,080 --> 01:38:30,640
Speaker 1: how we teach those things such that we are not

1787
01:38:31,080 --> 01:38:35,160
Speaker 1: committed to our children reaching particular conclusions. What we're committed

1788
01:38:35,200 --> 01:38:38,360
Speaker 1: to is our children engaging in free and open thought

1789
01:38:38,400 --> 01:38:42,240
Speaker 1: amongst themselves, right with hopefully an adult in the room

1790
01:38:42,680 --> 01:38:47,080
Speaker 1: that can you establish some guidelines. But I think you know,

1791
01:38:47,120 --> 01:38:50,439
Speaker 1: public education didn't do that very well five years ago,

1792
01:38:50,560 --> 01:38:53,280
Speaker 1: ten years ago, thirty years ago when I was there.

1793
01:38:53,320 --> 01:38:56,000
Speaker 1: But I think in this moment of cultural fracture, we

1794
01:38:56,080 --> 01:38:59,840
Speaker 1: do really have to commit to free speech, open to

1795
01:39:00,080 --> 01:39:06,400
Speaker 1: a inquiry, listening harder, thinking harder, right, not just bullet points,

1796
01:39:06,640 --> 01:39:08,160
Speaker 1: not just bullet points.

1797
01:39:08,400 --> 01:39:12,280
Speaker 7: What would cross the rubicon for you? People throw around

1798
01:39:12,280 --> 01:39:16,800
Speaker 7: the term constitutional crisis? What would actually happen that would

1799
01:39:16,840 --> 01:39:19,160
Speaker 7: make that something that you that you would be like

1800
01:39:19,600 --> 01:39:22,559
Speaker 7: this like it like like it is happening? What is

1801
01:39:22,560 --> 01:39:23,880
Speaker 7: that like make or break moment?

1802
01:39:24,400 --> 01:39:26,479
Speaker 1: You wanted me to imagine a realistic one or just

1803
01:39:26,479 --> 01:39:28,559
Speaker 1: sort of give you some sort of example that makes.

1804
01:39:28,360 --> 01:39:30,559
Speaker 7: Sense, No, like like what what would that be like

1805
01:39:30,640 --> 01:39:32,639
Speaker 7: for you? Because like I think everyone has their own

1806
01:39:32,680 --> 01:39:36,920
Speaker 7: personal rubric for like like what is too far in

1807
01:39:36,960 --> 01:39:39,439
Speaker 7: my mind? Like what is something that's like this is

1808
01:39:39,520 --> 01:39:42,360
Speaker 7: this is completely unacceptable? And for some people this this

1809
01:39:42,400 --> 01:39:44,720
Speaker 7: may have already happened. But like in terms of like

1810
01:39:44,920 --> 01:39:51,200
Speaker 7: legitimate like constitutional crisis, what is that for you?

1811
01:39:51,960 --> 01:39:55,360
Speaker 1: Well, this just rewind and this is I guess an

1812
01:39:55,360 --> 01:39:58,040
Speaker 1: example of why you know, someone still got their finger

1813
01:39:58,160 --> 01:40:01,720
Speaker 1: in the damn hold them back, holding it together. You know,

1814
01:40:01,760 --> 01:40:06,080
Speaker 1: the President of the United States asserted unilateral authority over

1815
01:40:06,160 --> 01:40:09,880
Speaker 1: the entire federal budget when he came into office, right,

1816
01:40:10,240 --> 01:40:13,519
Speaker 1: he does not have that power. Federal district court and

1817
01:40:13,600 --> 01:40:18,479
Speaker 1: joined it. He then backed down from that, right, but

1818
01:40:18,560 --> 01:40:20,960
Speaker 1: let's say he didn't back down. It's like, well, okay,

1819
01:40:21,240 --> 01:40:23,760
Speaker 1: you know, maybe you know it's a district court. But

1820
01:40:23,800 --> 01:40:26,800
Speaker 1: if the United States Supreme Court or a court of

1821
01:40:26,800 --> 01:40:30,719
Speaker 1: appeals told the president you lack the authority to sequestor

1822
01:40:30,800 --> 01:40:34,160
Speaker 1: those funds and he still did it. So just the budget,

1823
01:40:34,520 --> 01:40:37,400
Speaker 1: that's it. Just the budget, you know, just the belief

1824
01:40:37,439 --> 01:40:41,280
Speaker 1: that the president can spend our money however he wants

1825
01:40:41,680 --> 01:40:47,120
Speaker 1: with no constraint, and that would be crossing the rubicon. Now,

1826
01:40:47,160 --> 01:40:49,840
Speaker 1: I'll tell you. And this is why you know you

1827
01:40:49,840 --> 01:40:52,680
Speaker 1: had to kind of be like a constitutional law professor,

1828
01:40:52,600 --> 01:40:54,719
Speaker 1: or well, you don't have to be a constitutional law professor,

1829
01:40:54,720 --> 01:40:57,120
Speaker 1: but you've been following it. It's like, you know, I

1830
01:40:57,160 --> 01:40:59,760
Speaker 1: have been alarmed, and this goes back. This isn't just

1831
01:40:59,800 --> 01:41:05,280
Speaker 1: a Trump problem. Like I was alarmed with the NCLB waivers.

1832
01:41:05,320 --> 01:41:07,960
Speaker 1: Probably nobody in this even knows what I'm talking about. Right, like,

1833
01:41:08,200 --> 01:41:11,479
Speaker 1: you know, a decade ago, not that like President Obama

1834
01:41:11,560 --> 01:41:13,360
Speaker 1: was like going to take over the country, but alarmed

1835
01:41:13,400 --> 01:41:15,519
Speaker 1: that somehow another he thinks he can do this, Like

1836
01:41:15,560 --> 01:41:17,840
Speaker 1: why is he even testing the boundaries this way?

1837
01:41:17,880 --> 01:41:21,320
Speaker 7: Like executive power has been steadily expanding certainly.

1838
01:41:21,200 --> 01:41:23,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, and so but I was like, you know, you

1839
01:41:23,120 --> 01:41:25,000
Speaker 1: can kind of get it. There was some gray area

1840
01:41:25,120 --> 01:41:26,559
Speaker 1: this where he kind of need to be a constitutional

1841
01:41:26,640 --> 01:41:29,160
Speaker 1: law professor to kind of figure out why that was

1842
01:41:29,200 --> 01:41:33,120
Speaker 1: such a big deal. But when Biden, I mean think

1843
01:41:33,200 --> 01:41:36,719
Speaker 1: back and again, I don't begrudge people needing their debts relief,

1844
01:41:36,800 --> 01:41:41,560
Speaker 1: but when President Biden effectively asserted the power to allocate

1845
01:41:42,160 --> 01:41:46,160
Speaker 1: federal dollars to pay off debts, that was like, you know,

1846
01:41:46,280 --> 01:41:49,639
Speaker 1: half of the discretionary funds of the entire federal government.

1847
01:41:49,720 --> 01:41:51,680
Speaker 1: Like that's a big move to just say, yeah, I

1848
01:41:51,760 --> 01:41:54,960
Speaker 1: can I can commit this nation to a fifty percent

1849
01:41:55,000 --> 01:41:58,519
Speaker 1: increase and it's in its fiscal outlays tomorrow. That's not

1850
01:41:58,640 --> 01:42:02,920
Speaker 1: constitutional democracy. But now right, we have a present going

1851
01:42:02,960 --> 01:42:05,920
Speaker 1: even further than that. But he liked Biden at least

1852
01:42:05,960 --> 01:42:09,519
Speaker 1: thus far stepped back at least from the district court

1853
01:42:09,600 --> 01:42:11,320
Speaker 1: right when the court said can't. So it's really that

1854
01:42:11,400 --> 01:42:14,679
Speaker 1: sort of defying of the court at that point. Yeah,

1855
01:42:14,960 --> 01:42:17,200
Speaker 1: they've all been pushing the boundaries. He's pushed him further

1856
01:42:17,600 --> 01:42:21,080
Speaker 1: thus far. They've all complied with judicial orders, but it

1857
01:42:21,080 --> 01:42:23,280
Speaker 1: would be the refusal to comply with judicial order.

1858
01:42:23,479 --> 01:42:25,840
Speaker 7: I mean, I guess the main difference there for me

1859
01:42:26,479 --> 01:42:29,080
Speaker 7: relates back to what you said about acting in good faith.

1860
01:42:29,760 --> 01:42:32,280
Speaker 7: Something that people on the left I think get mad

1861
01:42:32,320 --> 01:42:37,360
Speaker 7: about sometimes is Democrats seeming a complete commitment to acting

1862
01:42:37,400 --> 01:42:41,559
Speaker 7: in good faith sometimes. And it certainly appears that that

1863
01:42:41,640 --> 01:42:45,360
Speaker 7: Trump is willing to push a little bit farther, especially

1864
01:42:45,400 --> 01:42:47,960
Speaker 7: in terms of like tests for loyalty. And it's at

1865
01:42:47,960 --> 01:42:50,880
Speaker 7: a certain point, like if he does something really bad

1866
01:42:51,600 --> 01:42:54,360
Speaker 7: at least for these next two years, like I don't

1867
01:42:54,400 --> 01:42:57,040
Speaker 7: see a way that he'll get like impeached or removed

1868
01:42:57,040 --> 01:42:59,640
Speaker 7: from office, like certainly not with this Senate, not with

1869
01:42:59,680 --> 01:43:03,240
Speaker 7: this Congress, Like that check and balance just no longer

1870
01:43:03,520 --> 01:43:07,840
Speaker 7: is viable due to the last election, and acting with

1871
01:43:07,960 --> 01:43:11,120
Speaker 7: that popular mandate has I think given them a bit

1872
01:43:11,200 --> 01:43:15,439
Speaker 7: more courage on their side to go, you know, a

1873
01:43:15,520 --> 01:43:18,200
Speaker 7: little bit further, play a little bit more fast and

1874
01:43:18,280 --> 01:43:21,760
Speaker 7: loose some of these like checks and balances than what

1875
01:43:21,760 --> 01:43:26,080
Speaker 7: we've like previously seen, but this is certainly still still developing.

1876
01:43:26,640 --> 01:43:28,960
Speaker 1: Well, the thing that really sort of jumps out at me,

1877
01:43:29,000 --> 01:43:31,439
Speaker 1: and I was telling some you know, several reporters, is

1878
01:43:31,479 --> 01:43:34,719
Speaker 1: that you're right, he's pushing it further. It looks scarier.

1879
01:43:34,760 --> 01:43:35,759
Speaker 5: But part of why.

1880
01:43:35,680 --> 01:43:39,639
Speaker 1: It's scarier, to be quite honest, well, I think it's

1881
01:43:39,640 --> 01:43:43,120
Speaker 1: scarier is that he's doing it out in the open.

1882
01:43:43,360 --> 01:43:45,640
Speaker 1: I mean, on some level, some of this stuff like

1883
01:43:45,800 --> 01:43:48,120
Speaker 1: telling people to cook up crazy plans to do this

1884
01:43:48,200 --> 01:43:50,200
Speaker 1: that like presidents have been doing it, like you know,

1885
01:43:50,280 --> 01:43:53,439
Speaker 1: Nixon was Dixon. Nixon was paranoid. He was like, like,

1886
01:43:53,479 --> 01:43:56,880
Speaker 1: this is what presidents do, but it's not appropriate to

1887
01:43:56,920 --> 01:44:00,519
Speaker 1: do it in public, right, you do it behind close doors.

1888
01:44:00,680 --> 01:44:04,360
Speaker 1: You know, offer some plausible rational rationalization for what you're doing,

1889
01:44:04,439 --> 01:44:06,200
Speaker 1: and you know, you minimize it, act like there's no

1890
01:44:06,240 --> 01:44:10,559
Speaker 1: big deal. What's startling here is that he is out

1891
01:44:10,560 --> 01:44:14,559
Speaker 1: in the open expressing his designs to us, giving us

1892
01:44:14,600 --> 01:44:17,120
Speaker 1: the sort of thoughts. And that's very unusual. And it

1893
01:44:17,160 --> 01:44:21,439
Speaker 1: does show that what's acceptable from public officials is much

1894
01:44:21,479 --> 01:44:24,760
Speaker 1: different now because had you know, had Nixon shared his

1895
01:44:24,840 --> 01:44:26,640
Speaker 1: designs of the American public, he wouldn't have made it

1896
01:44:26,640 --> 01:44:29,280
Speaker 1: as long as he did, you know, and probably true

1897
01:44:29,320 --> 01:44:31,200
Speaker 1: of a lot of other presidents, they would have been gone.

1898
01:44:31,479 --> 01:44:35,160
Speaker 1: So what's actually acceptable as public behavior has clearly changed,

1899
01:44:35,200 --> 01:44:40,040
Speaker 1: what's acceptable as a policy agenda has clearly changed. And

1900
01:44:40,120 --> 01:44:41,720
Speaker 1: so he's just putting it out there. He's putting his

1901
01:44:41,720 --> 01:44:43,519
Speaker 1: dirty laundry out there, and people are like, oh, this

1902
01:44:43,600 --> 01:44:44,080
Speaker 1: is normal.

1903
01:44:44,640 --> 01:44:46,800
Speaker 7: Unless you have anything else to add, Do you want

1904
01:44:46,800 --> 01:44:49,519
Speaker 7: to talk about where people can find you and your writing?

1905
01:44:50,120 --> 01:44:55,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I'm on Blue Sky more recently, still

1906
01:44:55,320 --> 01:44:58,519
Speaker 1: on on Twitter. I sort of have, you know, just

1907
01:44:58,600 --> 01:45:00,840
Speaker 1: lots of friends on there, so I'm still there. But

1908
01:45:01,040 --> 01:45:02,680
Speaker 1: to me too, yeah, you know, I'm not on there

1909
01:45:02,720 --> 01:45:04,720
Speaker 1: as often as I used to be. You know, I

1910
01:45:04,760 --> 01:45:07,120
Speaker 1: give up blogging a long time ago, so, you know,

1911
01:45:07,600 --> 01:45:09,720
Speaker 1: as we drink out of a fire hydrant, you know,

1912
01:45:09,760 --> 01:45:11,439
Speaker 1: I spent a lot of time just trying to explain

1913
01:45:11,520 --> 01:45:14,840
Speaker 1: basic things about public education to reporters. But you can

1914
01:45:14,840 --> 01:45:16,560
Speaker 1: find me there. I'm a professor of law at the

1915
01:45:16,600 --> 01:45:19,439
Speaker 1: University of South Carolina, And like I said, you know,

1916
01:45:19,560 --> 01:45:21,760
Speaker 1: Dangerous Learning just came out, you know, a week or

1917
01:45:21,800 --> 01:45:24,880
Speaker 1: so ago, really helping us, I think, helping us to

1918
01:45:24,920 --> 01:45:27,880
Speaker 1: see this current moment through a long lens of war

1919
01:45:27,960 --> 01:45:31,559
Speaker 1: on black equality, black freedom, and to be quite honest,

1920
01:45:31,640 --> 01:45:34,200
Speaker 1: just free and open debate. We've had those wars before

1921
01:45:34,360 --> 01:45:37,320
Speaker 1: and and we scarily are having them again.

1922
01:45:37,840 --> 01:46:00,439
Speaker 2: All right, thank as much, Thank you, Welcome back to

1923
01:46:00,920 --> 01:46:04,640
Speaker 2: It could happen here. This is a daily news podcast

1924
01:46:04,800 --> 01:46:08,360
Speaker 2: about all of the things happening here, which is wherever

1925
01:46:08,439 --> 01:46:11,920
Speaker 2: you happen to be, and also the world in general.

1926
01:46:12,160 --> 01:46:15,679
Speaker 2: And today we are going back to talk about Gaza,

1927
01:46:16,080 --> 01:46:19,920
Speaker 2: particularly what has happened and changed in sort of US

1928
01:46:19,960 --> 01:46:24,000
Speaker 2: policy relating to Gaza, to what's going to happen as

1929
01:46:24,439 --> 01:46:28,680
Speaker 2: the actual combat operations wind down, to the Trump administration's

1930
01:46:29,200 --> 01:46:34,679
Speaker 2: so far promises to effectively ethnically cleanse the entire area

1931
01:46:34,720 --> 01:46:37,439
Speaker 2: and turn it into some sort of weird US satellite.

1932
01:46:37,520 --> 01:46:41,040
Speaker 2: And with me today is Donna el Kurd, an assistant

1933
01:46:41,040 --> 01:46:44,439
Speaker 2: professor of political science, guest on our episodes about bib

1934
01:46:44,560 --> 01:46:47,640
Speaker 2: N Yahoo over It, Behind the Bastards. Dana, thank you

1935
01:46:47,720 --> 01:46:49,960
Speaker 2: so much for being here with us. How are you

1936
01:46:50,040 --> 01:46:52,559
Speaker 2: doing today? I know that's a dumb question. I just

1937
01:46:52,600 --> 01:46:53,920
Speaker 2: asked you that at the start of this too.

1938
01:46:54,320 --> 01:46:57,920
Speaker 12: Now, thank you for having me. I think every Palestinian

1939
01:46:58,000 --> 01:46:59,240
Speaker 12: in the world is not doing great.

1940
01:46:59,560 --> 01:47:00,000
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1941
01:47:00,120 --> 01:47:03,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, again, like I said, a dumb question. The

1942
01:47:03,960 --> 01:47:05,920
Speaker 2: short story of what is happening is that Trump made

1943
01:47:05,960 --> 01:47:09,840
Speaker 2: an unprecedented announcement about a week ago on stage with

1944
01:47:09,920 --> 01:47:14,040
Speaker 2: Netan Yahoo that gazo would be that, like the Palestinian

1945
01:47:14,080 --> 01:47:17,200
Speaker 2: population would be forced out and not allowed to return,

1946
01:47:17,640 --> 01:47:21,439
Speaker 2: and it would be turned into effectively American condos. Right,

1947
01:47:21,760 --> 01:47:24,640
Speaker 2: Like that's I think that's essentially the gist of the

1948
01:47:24,680 --> 01:47:27,799
Speaker 2: initial meeting, which was met with a degree of chaos

1949
01:47:27,840 --> 01:47:30,840
Speaker 2: even from Israel, because I don't think anyone entirely knew

1950
01:47:30,840 --> 01:47:32,760
Speaker 2: exactly what Trump was going to say when he got

1951
01:47:32,800 --> 01:47:35,439
Speaker 2: up on that stage, which is pretty normal Trump fashion.

1952
01:47:35,520 --> 01:47:38,599
Speaker 2: But yeah, how would you characterize kind of the initial

1953
01:47:38,640 --> 01:47:40,160
Speaker 2: reaction to that announcement.

1954
01:47:40,400 --> 01:47:44,440
Speaker 12: Yeah, so a couple of different audiences for that announcement

1955
01:47:44,479 --> 01:47:48,240
Speaker 12: to begin with. For the Israeli side, I mean, what

1956
01:47:48,320 --> 01:47:52,840
Speaker 12: I'm hearing from analysts and people who follow Israeli politics

1957
01:47:52,960 --> 01:47:56,599
Speaker 12: is that this has really changed the permission structure for them.

1958
01:47:56,720 --> 01:47:57,040
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1959
01:47:57,200 --> 01:48:00,719
Speaker 12: I think you're right that didn't expect something to this degree,

1960
01:48:01,120 --> 01:48:03,320
Speaker 12: But now that it's been said, it's like that is

1961
01:48:03,360 --> 01:48:06,479
Speaker 12: the full extent of what we can expect to do right,

1962
01:48:06,520 --> 01:48:10,080
Speaker 12: and so I don't think a lot of people are thinking, like,

1963
01:48:10,360 --> 01:48:14,040
Speaker 12: for real, there's going to be a Gaza riviera. But

1964
01:48:14,320 --> 01:48:18,080
Speaker 12: what this does is it just expands the scope of

1965
01:48:18,120 --> 01:48:21,960
Speaker 12: what they think is possible for Gaza, whether it's preventing

1966
01:48:22,560 --> 01:48:26,599
Speaker 12: reconstruction and you know, basically keeping them in this kind

1967
01:48:26,600 --> 01:48:32,679
Speaker 12: of stagnant condition and allowing people to start trickling out

1968
01:48:32,680 --> 01:48:36,160
Speaker 12: and leaving and anybody left is considered combatant. That could

1969
01:48:36,160 --> 01:48:39,519
Speaker 12: be a possibility moving forward. It could cover up for

1970
01:48:40,439 --> 01:48:44,639
Speaker 12: more aggressive action ending the ceasefire. I mean, it's really

1971
01:48:45,200 --> 01:48:49,080
Speaker 12: upended the things in terms of the Israeli perspective. Yeah,

1972
01:48:49,120 --> 01:48:51,360
Speaker 12: and how much they've accepted it, I think.

1973
01:48:51,360 --> 01:48:54,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, because I mean my interpretation would be that what

1974
01:48:54,560 --> 01:48:57,639
Speaker 2: Trump's literal words leave the door open to everything from

1975
01:48:58,320 --> 01:49:00,960
Speaker 2: like you said, sort of slowly waiting for people to

1976
01:49:00,960 --> 01:49:03,640
Speaker 2: trickle out and not letting them back in kind of

1977
01:49:03,640 --> 01:49:06,200
Speaker 2: like what you saw in the Chagos Islands, or outright

1978
01:49:06,439 --> 01:49:09,720
Speaker 2: mass killing. You know, like there's no closed doors and

1979
01:49:09,800 --> 01:49:13,839
Speaker 2: Trump's plan Other than about three hours before we recorded

1980
01:49:13,840 --> 01:49:18,040
Speaker 2: this on Monday the tenth, a series of articles went

1981
01:49:18,160 --> 01:49:21,360
Speaker 2: out based on some of Trump's comments, confirming Palestinians wouldn't

1982
01:49:21,360 --> 01:49:24,080
Speaker 2: be allowed back into Gaza under his plan, right, the

1983
01:49:24,120 --> 01:49:26,280
Speaker 2: plan is for ethnic cleansing, right, Like, that's the only

1984
01:49:26,320 --> 01:49:27,400
Speaker 2: way to describe that.

1985
01:49:27,680 --> 01:49:30,640
Speaker 12: Yeah, No, it's very explicit. And I think that the

1986
01:49:30,680 --> 01:49:34,799
Speaker 12: way in which American allies, allied regimes in the region

1987
01:49:34,960 --> 01:49:39,960
Speaker 12: have reacted to this, like shows a great deal of alarm. Obviously,

1988
01:49:40,040 --> 01:49:43,320
Speaker 12: Jordan and Egypt, already struggling as it is with a

1989
01:49:43,400 --> 01:49:46,240
Speaker 12: variety of issues, don't want a bunch of Palestinians who

1990
01:49:46,240 --> 01:49:49,639
Speaker 12: are very politically active to be absorbed into their population.

1991
01:49:49,960 --> 01:49:53,519
Speaker 12: The Saudi government, you know, put out I would say,

1992
01:49:53,520 --> 01:49:55,559
Speaker 12: like a pretty strong statement. I mean I was. I

1993
01:49:55,600 --> 01:49:58,400
Speaker 12: was surprised how strong it was about how much they

1994
01:49:58,920 --> 01:50:00,439
Speaker 12: do not endorse such plan.

1995
01:50:01,200 --> 01:50:04,400
Speaker 2: So yeah, and it's interesting because Trump, in the way

1996
01:50:04,400 --> 01:50:07,519
Speaker 2: that he often just like says shit has I'm going

1997
01:50:07,600 --> 01:50:10,120
Speaker 2: to read the exact quote. I'm talking about starting to

1998
01:50:10,120 --> 01:50:12,040
Speaker 2: build And I think I could make a deal with Jordan.

1999
01:50:12,120 --> 01:50:13,840
Speaker 2: I think I can make a deal with Egypt. You know,

2000
01:50:13,880 --> 01:50:16,080
Speaker 2: we give them billions and billions of dollars a year,

2001
01:50:16,640 --> 01:50:19,960
Speaker 2: and so far Egypt and Jordan have both said no,

2002
01:50:20,080 --> 01:50:23,480
Speaker 2: this is not something we're interested you and special Rapporteur

2003
01:50:23,680 --> 01:50:27,439
Speaker 2: Francesca Albanize said Trump's proposal was nonsense but has to

2004
01:50:27,479 --> 01:50:29,720
Speaker 2: be taken very seriously, which I actually think is a

2005
01:50:29,760 --> 01:50:33,679
Speaker 2: reasonably good summary of how to handle everything that he says.

2006
01:50:33,760 --> 01:50:36,080
Speaker 2: It's nonsense that you have to take it very seriously.

2007
01:50:36,880 --> 01:50:39,200
Speaker 12: I mean, the man has the nukes, as we've discussed,

2008
01:50:39,760 --> 01:50:44,240
Speaker 12: so yeah, I mean the way that people have reacted

2009
01:50:44,520 --> 01:50:46,760
Speaker 12: is obviously a great deal of alarm. And on the

2010
01:50:46,800 --> 01:50:51,320
Speaker 12: Palestinian side, it's like Palestinian different Palstinian political actors are

2011
01:50:51,360 --> 01:50:54,839
Speaker 12: bracing for, Yeah, the end of the ceasefire essentially.

2012
01:50:55,439 --> 01:50:57,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, that's pretty stark term to put it.

2013
01:50:57,720 --> 01:51:00,080
Speaker 2: And I don't know, I guess because yeah, one thing

2014
01:51:00,120 --> 01:51:02,559
Speaker 2: that the door is open on Israel saying, well, now

2015
01:51:02,600 --> 01:51:05,240
Speaker 2: that we've announced this plan and people have to get out,

2016
01:51:05,280 --> 01:51:08,519
Speaker 2: everyone's staying is effectively a combatant exactly.

2017
01:51:08,640 --> 01:51:11,320
Speaker 12: Yeah, I think that that's. Yeah, it's not you know,

2018
01:51:11,840 --> 01:51:14,120
Speaker 12: what we've seen over the past four hundred and seventy

2019
01:51:14,200 --> 01:51:16,400
Speaker 12: days up to cease fire is not that they have

2020
01:51:16,520 --> 01:51:19,640
Speaker 12: much respect for non combatants to begin with. Yeah, that

2021
01:51:19,720 --> 01:51:25,320
Speaker 12: really didn't stop them from targeting civilians, targeting children. So

2022
01:51:25,520 --> 01:51:29,000
Speaker 12: you can imagine now that even I mean, it's hard

2023
01:51:29,040 --> 01:51:30,600
Speaker 12: to even talk about it in these terms. It's not

2024
01:51:30,640 --> 01:51:32,960
Speaker 12: like le Bide administration was really holding them accountable either,

2025
01:51:33,080 --> 01:51:35,920
Speaker 12: But now again, because the permission structure has just been

2026
01:51:35,960 --> 01:51:38,920
Speaker 12: expanded to such a degree that we don't know what

2027
01:51:39,000 --> 01:51:40,960
Speaker 12: kinds of things we're going to see for people who

2028
01:51:40,960 --> 01:51:45,120
Speaker 12: remain in Gaza in the coming future. And obviously this

2029
01:51:45,240 --> 01:51:51,599
Speaker 12: derails any possibility for Palestinian and Israeli civil society actors

2030
01:51:51,600 --> 01:51:56,240
Speaker 12: who are trying to move beyond this particular status quo.

2031
01:51:56,479 --> 01:52:00,799
Speaker 12: And there's no international actor that's really empowering those efforts,

2032
01:52:00,920 --> 01:52:03,080
Speaker 12: and so it's really bleak.

2033
01:52:03,680 --> 01:52:06,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's bleak in so many comprehensive ways.

2034
01:52:07,200 --> 01:52:09,760
Speaker 2: Like one thing, and not to I don't mean to

2035
01:52:09,880 --> 01:52:12,840
Speaker 2: like kind of take the focus off of Gaza, but

2036
01:52:13,000 --> 01:52:16,400
Speaker 2: this is you use the term permission structure on an

2037
01:52:16,439 --> 01:52:20,120
Speaker 2: international level. The US saying we are backing a forced

2038
01:52:20,520 --> 01:52:24,559
Speaker 2: expulsion in genocide of an entire population does change the

2039
01:52:24,560 --> 01:52:29,639
Speaker 2: permission structure for every international actor in terms of like

2040
01:52:29,680 --> 01:52:32,080
Speaker 2: a massive variety of conflicts around the world, Like this

2041
01:52:32,240 --> 01:52:36,559
Speaker 2: is like a sea change in international norms that so

2042
01:52:36,600 --> 01:52:40,160
Speaker 2: many millions of people outside of Gaza will eventually and

2043
01:52:40,479 --> 01:52:42,559
Speaker 2: the probably immediately be effective.

2044
01:52:42,560 --> 01:52:46,040
Speaker 12: By I mean, I think that there has always been

2045
01:52:46,800 --> 01:52:51,720
Speaker 12: gaps in what is acceptable and what is permissible under

2046
01:52:51,760 --> 01:52:55,800
Speaker 12: international law. Obviously that has never been applied evenly. And

2047
01:52:55,840 --> 01:52:58,760
Speaker 12: then if you were a particular group that didn't have

2048
01:52:58,920 --> 01:53:02,639
Speaker 12: American backing, for example the Armenians in Artza, it didn't

2049
01:53:02,680 --> 01:53:04,719
Speaker 12: matter if you were ethnically cleansed. But like you said,

2050
01:53:04,760 --> 01:53:06,960
Speaker 12: this just expands it to such a scope like now

2051
01:53:07,000 --> 01:53:11,840
Speaker 12: this is an acceptable policy solution to remove wholesale, huge populations.

2052
01:53:12,280 --> 01:53:15,240
Speaker 12: And when the ceasefire happened, there was an argument, and

2053
01:53:15,320 --> 01:53:18,200
Speaker 12: I think that this is a valid one that Palestinians

2054
01:53:18,240 --> 01:53:20,959
Speaker 12: the fact that they were able to in the ceasefire

2055
01:53:21,040 --> 01:53:24,880
Speaker 12: agreement secure their right to return even to the rubble,

2056
01:53:25,439 --> 01:53:28,839
Speaker 12: that was a huge obstacle to this kind of precedent,

2057
01:53:28,960 --> 01:53:32,559
Speaker 12: and I think Trump is now try to upend that victory,

2058
01:53:32,680 --> 01:53:34,920
Speaker 12: even if it's you know, in terms of a precedent

2059
01:53:34,960 --> 01:53:37,479
Speaker 12: set or in symbolic terms, like you said, this is

2060
01:53:37,520 --> 01:53:41,160
Speaker 12: now going to become how states operate. I mean, the

2061
01:53:41,200 --> 01:53:45,200
Speaker 12: Syrian dictator during the Syrian Civil War I think pushed

2062
01:53:45,240 --> 01:53:47,479
Speaker 12: the bounds of how states can operate. And this is

2063
01:53:47,520 --> 01:53:48,160
Speaker 12: another level.

2064
01:53:48,600 --> 01:53:51,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, and I think that this is an I

2065
01:53:52,000 --> 01:53:53,720
Speaker 2: want to kind of zero back in on Gaza in

2066
01:53:53,760 --> 01:53:56,120
Speaker 2: a second, but I really do. I think that that

2067
01:53:56,360 --> 01:53:59,400
Speaker 2: broader point that you just make can't be made enough,

2068
01:53:59,760 --> 01:54:02,080
Speaker 2: not just the centrality of Syria, but the idea that

2069
01:54:02,600 --> 01:54:05,559
Speaker 2: when on the international stage the leader of a country

2070
01:54:05,600 --> 01:54:09,799
Speaker 2: is allowed to do force displacements through massive aerial bombing,

2071
01:54:10,360 --> 01:54:13,120
Speaker 2: Like there's this idea that you can just be like, well,

2072
01:54:13,120 --> 01:54:15,760
Speaker 2: that's just Syria, right, It's never just Syria, just like

2073
01:54:15,800 --> 01:54:18,880
Speaker 2: it's never just Gaza. You know, these things metastasize. You

2074
01:54:18,960 --> 01:54:20,640
Speaker 2: have to view that those kind of actions in the

2075
01:54:20,680 --> 01:54:22,240
Speaker 2: international stage like a cancer.

2076
01:54:22,720 --> 01:54:22,920
Speaker 4: Right.

2077
01:54:23,000 --> 01:54:23,040
Speaker 10: No.

2078
01:54:23,160 --> 01:54:27,879
Speaker 12: Absolutely. There was a Syrian activist and political writer, yasinl Hrsala,

2079
01:54:27,960 --> 01:54:30,559
Speaker 12: who said, the Syrianization of the world. Yeah, and we're

2080
01:54:30,560 --> 01:54:32,640
Speaker 12: seeing the gasification of the world. We will see the

2081
01:54:32,640 --> 01:54:35,240
Speaker 12: gassification of the world. Yeah, and that's very, very dangerous

2082
01:54:35,280 --> 01:54:36,200
Speaker 12: for everybody involved.

2083
01:54:36,440 --> 01:54:40,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, that can't be overstated. A chill kind of goes

2084
01:54:40,040 --> 01:54:43,240
Speaker 2: down my spine thinking about that and thinking about that quote,

2085
01:54:43,600 --> 01:54:46,240
Speaker 2: which makes this a very bad time to throw to ads.

2086
01:54:46,320 --> 01:54:48,400
Speaker 2: But that's what I'm going to do. Then we're going

2087
01:54:48,480 --> 01:55:00,440
Speaker 2: to come back and we're going to talk about b mining.

2088
01:55:00,960 --> 01:55:04,880
Speaker 2: We're back so to zero Beckon on Gaza. Obviously, one

2089
01:55:04,880 --> 01:55:06,960
Speaker 2: thing that comes up when Trump talks about this plan

2090
01:55:07,200 --> 01:55:09,960
Speaker 2: that is an actual thing that would have to be

2091
01:55:10,000 --> 01:55:11,840
Speaker 2: dealt with one way or the other, is that huge

2092
01:55:11,920 --> 01:55:14,640
Speaker 2: chunks of Gaza are uninhabitable right now and will be

2093
01:55:14,680 --> 01:55:17,080
Speaker 2: for the foreseeable future because of the sheer quantity of

2094
01:55:17,200 --> 01:55:20,480
Speaker 2: munitions dispensed. A number of munitions that have been used

2095
01:55:20,480 --> 01:55:23,920
Speaker 2: in Gaza are cluster munitions, but even munitions that are

2096
01:55:23,960 --> 01:55:28,800
Speaker 2: not cluster munitions, when you're dropping bombs on particularly dense

2097
01:55:28,880 --> 01:55:31,920
Speaker 2: urban targets, there's a wide variety of things that can

2098
01:55:31,960 --> 01:55:34,080
Speaker 2: happen to those munitions on their way to their target,

2099
01:55:34,160 --> 01:55:37,160
Speaker 2: including them getting deflected by debris, them getting deflected by

2100
01:55:37,160 --> 01:55:39,840
Speaker 2: pieces of metal and rebar and the like that damages

2101
01:55:40,360 --> 01:55:43,600
Speaker 2: the device and stops it from detonating but leaves it

2102
01:55:43,640 --> 01:55:46,480
Speaker 2: still in an active state. And the estimate I'm seeing

2103
01:55:46,480 --> 01:55:49,160
Speaker 2: for munitions used in Gaza is about ten percent of

2104
01:55:49,200 --> 01:55:51,240
Speaker 2: the munitions, and there's no way of knowing how many

2105
01:55:51,280 --> 01:55:54,120
Speaker 2: have been dropped, but estimates are at least thirty thousand

2106
01:55:54,160 --> 01:56:01,080
Speaker 2: in the first seventy days I think weeks sorry much

2107
01:56:01,160 --> 01:56:03,600
Speaker 2: less than seventy days, nearly thirty thousand munitions in the

2108
01:56:03,640 --> 01:56:06,640
Speaker 2: first seven weeks of the war, so a huge number,

2109
01:56:06,680 --> 01:56:10,120
Speaker 2: about ten percent at least, are still active and live.

2110
01:56:10,320 --> 01:56:13,240
Speaker 2: And you know, for an idea of how long it

2111
01:56:13,440 --> 01:56:16,360
Speaker 2: takes to d mine and render an area safe for

2112
01:56:16,520 --> 01:56:18,960
Speaker 2: munitions like this, there are still people who die in

2113
01:56:18,960 --> 01:56:21,560
Speaker 2: France from wor World War One munitions, you know, up

2114
01:56:21,640 --> 01:56:24,960
Speaker 2: to the present day in twenty twenty five. So this

2115
01:56:25,120 --> 01:56:28,120
Speaker 2: is a massive problem. In the best case scenario, something

2116
01:56:28,160 --> 01:56:30,800
Speaker 2: has to be done with these munitions. This is something

2117
01:56:30,800 --> 01:56:33,000
Speaker 2: that Trump has been bringing up and when talking about

2118
01:56:33,040 --> 01:56:35,160
Speaker 2: like his desire to clear people out of their d

2119
01:56:35,360 --> 01:56:40,120
Speaker 2: mine and then rebuild effectively what sounds almost like a

2120
01:56:40,200 --> 01:56:44,000
Speaker 2: vacation colony right for the United States. And one of

2121
01:56:44,000 --> 01:56:46,480
Speaker 2: the issues just with any sort of practical sort of

2122
01:56:46,480 --> 01:56:50,240
Speaker 2: effect with D mining is that USAID has been gutted

2123
01:56:50,280 --> 01:56:53,080
Speaker 2: as an agency, and that's the agency through which D

2124
01:56:53,240 --> 01:56:56,600
Speaker 2: mining was done. We've spent billions of dollars, put billions

2125
01:56:56,600 --> 01:56:59,560
Speaker 2: of dollars into D mining around the world through USAID.

2126
01:56:59,800 --> 01:57:03,120
Speaker 2: The US military is actually not allowed by our laws

2127
01:57:03,160 --> 01:57:06,880
Speaker 2: to do D mining operations. There's a complicated history there,

2128
01:57:06,920 --> 01:57:09,760
Speaker 2: but like so we both got this situation where the

2129
01:57:09,960 --> 01:57:13,800
Speaker 2: proposed justification for pushing the population out is, well, it's

2130
01:57:13,840 --> 01:57:15,760
Speaker 2: not safe to be there, we have to determine it.

2131
01:57:15,800 --> 01:57:18,800
Speaker 2: And also we have created a situation in which the

2132
01:57:18,960 --> 01:57:21,600
Speaker 2: organizations that do d mining can't do it anymore.

2133
01:57:22,600 --> 01:57:26,040
Speaker 12: Yeah, and I think those same organizations asked for like

2134
01:57:26,080 --> 01:57:30,160
Speaker 12: an exception to the stop work order and were denied

2135
01:57:30,160 --> 01:57:32,640
Speaker 12: by the State Department. And yep, no, you know, no

2136
01:57:32,720 --> 01:57:35,320
Speaker 12: explanations were given. And so I mean it's it's obviously

2137
01:57:36,120 --> 01:57:39,120
Speaker 12: a fig leaf. Yeah, it's obviously an excuse, like this

2138
01:57:39,160 --> 01:57:43,000
Speaker 12: has nothing to do with bettering conditions in Gaza. And

2139
01:57:43,040 --> 01:57:45,880
Speaker 12: I the fact that he's gone back and clarified and

2140
01:57:45,960 --> 01:57:48,240
Speaker 12: has been asked the number of times, including last night

2141
01:57:48,280 --> 01:57:50,720
Speaker 12: after the super Bowl or something, and he said no, no,

2142
01:57:50,760 --> 01:57:53,680
Speaker 12: they won't be allowed to return. Yeah, well, all right,

2143
01:57:53,840 --> 01:57:56,160
Speaker 12: what are you demining? You really think you're going to

2144
01:57:56,200 --> 01:57:57,480
Speaker 12: build hotels?

2145
01:57:57,800 --> 01:57:58,600
Speaker 3: Yeah.

2146
01:57:58,800 --> 01:58:03,040
Speaker 12: My understanding is like people in the administration were also

2147
01:58:03,120 --> 01:58:08,320
Speaker 12: surprised by this tack of reasoning. So I wonder who's

2148
01:58:08,360 --> 01:58:11,240
Speaker 12: fed him this idea, Like, who's given him this idea

2149
01:58:11,280 --> 01:58:13,160
Speaker 12: that he's going to be able to build hotels.

2150
01:58:13,160 --> 01:58:18,680
Speaker 2: Here my understanding, based on reading don't have any inns

2151
01:58:18,680 --> 01:58:21,720
Speaker 2: in the Trump administration. But the reporting I've seen suggested

2152
01:58:21,800 --> 01:58:24,360
Speaker 2: came from Kushner that like a year or so ago,

2153
01:58:24,400 --> 01:58:26,160
Speaker 2: he was talking, I have been talking about this like

2154
01:58:26,240 --> 01:58:28,320
Speaker 2: this is great, you know, a great place to build

2155
01:58:28,320 --> 01:58:31,200
Speaker 2: a condo. It's beautiful, you know, wonderful weather. I mean,

2156
01:58:31,240 --> 01:58:33,200
Speaker 2: we know just from the past. That is kind of

2157
01:58:33,200 --> 01:58:36,320
Speaker 2: how Trump works is somebody people tell him a lot

2158
01:58:36,360 --> 01:58:39,240
Speaker 2: of shit, but something sticks in his brain and that,

2159
01:58:39,360 --> 01:58:42,320
Speaker 2: like with the Greenland shit can become US policy. And

2160
01:58:42,320 --> 01:58:44,000
Speaker 2: that appears to be I mean, as best as I

2161
01:58:44,040 --> 01:58:45,360
Speaker 2: can tell, that's the origin of this.

2162
01:58:45,720 --> 01:58:49,080
Speaker 12: It's just like the grift can really stick in his mind.

2163
01:58:49,200 --> 01:58:52,560
Speaker 12: He's really good at holding onto possibilities for grifting.

2164
01:58:52,920 --> 01:58:56,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, the fact that you are doing a genocide in

2165
01:58:56,800 --> 01:59:00,680
Speaker 2: order to clear land for condos doesn't make it less

2166
01:59:00,680 --> 01:59:03,920
Speaker 2: of a genocide, but it is like a justification for genocide.

2167
01:59:03,960 --> 01:59:07,240
Speaker 2: I don't think i've heard a country's leader make before, right.

2168
01:59:07,360 --> 01:59:09,800
Speaker 2: I mean, parts of this are familiar and go back,

2169
01:59:09,880 --> 01:59:11,640
Speaker 2: you know, even to the Iraq War in terms of

2170
01:59:11,760 --> 01:59:14,160
Speaker 2: US Paul and further back right, like what is kind

2171
01:59:14,200 --> 01:59:16,480
Speaker 2: of the core of US support of Israel as our

2172
01:59:16,520 --> 01:59:20,240
Speaker 2: desire to have a stable territory within the Middle East

2173
01:59:20,240 --> 01:59:23,600
Speaker 2: from where we can project power, right, So, to that extent,

2174
01:59:23,720 --> 01:59:27,640
Speaker 2: this is like a natural expression of US policy for

2175
01:59:27,720 --> 01:59:29,600
Speaker 2: decades in the area, Like, well, what if we just

2176
01:59:29,680 --> 01:59:32,760
Speaker 2: take this for ourselves and then we have this stable

2177
01:59:32,800 --> 01:59:35,720
Speaker 2: platform from where we can airstrike whoever the hell we want,

2178
01:59:36,280 --> 01:59:38,600
Speaker 2: and also Jared Kushner can have his condos.

2179
01:59:39,880 --> 01:59:42,960
Speaker 12: Yeah, I mean the thing is they can. They can

2180
01:59:43,000 --> 01:59:46,920
Speaker 12: achieve and have already been able to maintain American hegemony

2181
01:59:46,960 --> 01:59:50,320
Speaker 12: with all sorts of bases across the Middle East some secrets,

2182
01:59:50,360 --> 01:59:54,040
Speaker 12: I'm not, Yeah, cultar like it's it's this is I

2183
01:59:54,040 --> 01:59:57,280
Speaker 12: think this is another level where it's like American andgemony

2184
01:59:57,320 --> 02:00:00,720
Speaker 12: is tangential to Jared Kushner making money. So it's an

2185
02:00:00,760 --> 02:00:05,320
Speaker 12: interesting little I've never seen a hedgemon kind of shoot

2186
02:00:05,360 --> 02:00:09,160
Speaker 12: itself in the foot in this direction to this degree.

2187
02:00:09,640 --> 02:00:12,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't want the focus to be on the

2188
02:00:12,320 --> 02:00:15,400
Speaker 2: danger to Americans from this, but this is extremely dangerous

2189
02:00:15,400 --> 02:00:18,760
Speaker 2: for Americans too, right, Like having your country openly back

2190
02:00:19,040 --> 02:00:22,720
Speaker 2: a genocide to this extent, like not just even arming it,

2191
02:00:22,760 --> 02:00:25,640
Speaker 2: but saying like we are specifically going to build, like

2192
02:00:25,800 --> 02:00:29,080
Speaker 2: take this land and profit off of it is such

2193
02:00:29,080 --> 02:00:33,640
Speaker 2: as it so comprehensively escalates everything on an international scale,

2194
02:00:34,200 --> 02:00:36,120
Speaker 2: Like I don't even, I can't even. I can't think

2195
02:00:36,120 --> 02:00:38,760
Speaker 2: of a single decision that's this reckless that's been made

2196
02:00:38,760 --> 02:00:43,520
Speaker 2: in my lifetime by American politicians other than the Iraq War, right.

2197
02:00:43,400 --> 02:00:45,960
Speaker 12: And that was I think maybe the first nail in

2198
02:00:46,000 --> 02:00:49,520
Speaker 12: the confine. And we're reaching the last nails in the coffin.

2199
02:00:50,000 --> 02:00:51,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, well the coffin's almost done.

2200
02:00:52,040 --> 02:00:57,160
Speaker 12: It's almost done. We're dismantling the whatever remnants of the

2201
02:00:57,160 --> 02:01:01,360
Speaker 12: international order used to exist, and it's really going to

2202
02:01:01,400 --> 02:01:02,160
Speaker 12: be a free fall.

2203
02:01:02,680 --> 02:01:03,120
Speaker 5: Yeah.

2204
02:01:03,400 --> 02:01:05,200
Speaker 2: I don't know what more to say on that. I

2205
02:01:05,200 --> 02:01:08,400
Speaker 2: guess kind of one thing we should get into is

2206
02:01:09,240 --> 02:01:11,920
Speaker 2: what we're seeing in terms of the Trump administration and

2207
02:01:12,240 --> 02:01:14,880
Speaker 2: pro Palestine protests in the United States. Obviously, last night

2208
02:01:14,920 --> 02:01:18,280
Speaker 2: at the Super Bowl, we had a moment where a

2209
02:01:18,360 --> 02:01:21,760
Speaker 2: member of Kendrick Lamar's the performance crew on the ground.

2210
02:01:21,760 --> 02:01:23,320
Speaker 2: I think it was one of his dancers. As far

2211
02:01:23,360 --> 02:01:25,440
Speaker 2: as I can tell them, I don't believe the individual

2212
02:01:25,480 --> 02:01:27,120
Speaker 2: has been named yet. Maybe I missed that.

2213
02:01:27,600 --> 02:01:30,200
Speaker 12: I think somebody has released his name. I took to intercept.

2214
02:01:30,480 --> 02:01:33,480
Speaker 2: Okay, well, I don't feel specifically a need to do that,

2215
02:01:33,680 --> 02:01:36,160
Speaker 2: but an individual who was a part of that was

2216
02:01:36,200 --> 02:01:38,880
Speaker 2: standing on like one of the cars that was on

2217
02:01:39,280 --> 02:01:42,840
Speaker 2: stage that Kendrick had been dancing on, unfurled a Palestine

2218
02:01:43,000 --> 02:01:46,960
Speaker 2: and Sudan flag is a fairly small, like a couple

2219
02:01:47,000 --> 02:01:49,760
Speaker 2: of feet wide, couple of feet deep, so like not

2220
02:01:49,840 --> 02:01:52,200
Speaker 2: like a mask, certainly not a destructive act, but like,

2221
02:01:52,720 --> 02:01:55,200
Speaker 2: not only did that person get like banned for life

2222
02:01:55,240 --> 02:01:58,840
Speaker 2: from all sort of NFL events and performing or attending them,

2223
02:01:59,280 --> 02:02:03,320
Speaker 2: which I suppose was not super shocking, but there were

2224
02:02:03,320 --> 02:02:07,320
Speaker 2: immediate announcements by New Orleans Police that they are trying

2225
02:02:07,360 --> 02:02:10,240
Speaker 2: to figure out what to charge this person under, which,

2226
02:02:10,360 --> 02:02:13,720
Speaker 2: like I tell me what kind of crime that is?

2227
02:02:14,120 --> 02:02:16,080
Speaker 12: You know, I mean, it's not like he even invaded

2228
02:02:16,120 --> 02:02:18,720
Speaker 12: the pitch, right, like he's it was like to be

2229
02:02:18,800 --> 02:02:19,280
Speaker 12: an actor.

2230
02:02:19,520 --> 02:02:20,800
Speaker 5: Yeah, he did a thing.

2231
02:02:20,840 --> 02:02:23,360
Speaker 2: I think that wasn't part of the script, I assume,

2232
02:02:23,560 --> 02:02:26,680
Speaker 2: but like, I don't know how you even charged him. Yeah,

2233
02:02:26,840 --> 02:02:29,560
Speaker 2: I don't think charges are out yet, right, but they're

2234
02:02:29,600 --> 02:02:32,960
Speaker 2: going to find something to do, which is also going

2235
02:02:33,000 --> 02:02:35,800
Speaker 2: to set a precedent, right because this is nothing. This

2236
02:02:36,160 --> 02:02:37,880
Speaker 2: person was not in a place they weren't allowed to

2237
02:02:37,880 --> 02:02:41,080
Speaker 2: be this person didn't damage any property they held a

2238
02:02:41,160 --> 02:02:44,280
Speaker 2: thing like that's the definition of protected speech. You know,

2239
02:02:44,680 --> 02:02:47,080
Speaker 2: if you're their employer, you can fire them for that,

2240
02:02:47,400 --> 02:02:50,120
Speaker 2: but you can't charge them criminally for that.

2241
02:02:50,920 --> 02:02:53,360
Speaker 12: I mean they wanted to make an example. They and

2242
02:02:53,400 --> 02:02:55,840
Speaker 12: we'll see what kind of example that they try to

2243
02:02:55,840 --> 02:02:58,480
Speaker 12: make out of this person. And it like, like you said,

2244
02:02:58,480 --> 02:03:03,440
Speaker 12: it's really in line with Trump, the Trump administration taking

2245
02:03:03,480 --> 02:03:09,080
Speaker 12: aggressive action against any forms of dissent around American foreign policy.

2246
02:03:09,120 --> 02:03:11,840
Speaker 12: That is obviously, as we've mentioned, like very tied up

2247
02:03:12,320 --> 02:03:17,080
Speaker 12: with the genocide that unfolded. And so it's these executive

2248
02:03:17,120 --> 02:03:21,400
Speaker 12: orders around deporting international students, it's executive orders around like

2249
02:03:21,520 --> 02:03:26,600
Speaker 12: expanded understandings of anti semitism and the ideas. Even if

2250
02:03:26,600 --> 02:03:30,800
Speaker 12: you don't go after everybody, you're making an example enough

2251
02:03:30,840 --> 02:03:34,560
Speaker 12: that like you're chilling people's abilities to engage, whether it's

2252
02:03:34,560 --> 02:03:38,560
Speaker 12: on campuses or you know, off campuses, and so it's

2253
02:03:38,680 --> 02:03:41,520
Speaker 12: it's definitely I can tell you from like the academic perspective,

2254
02:03:41,640 --> 02:03:46,800
Speaker 12: like a number of disciplinary organizations and and and like

2255
02:03:46,920 --> 02:03:50,400
Speaker 12: mile Ease Studies Association and things like this, like they're

2256
02:03:50,480 --> 02:03:53,040
Speaker 12: they're very concerned, like this is a very concerning moment.

2257
02:03:53,400 --> 02:03:55,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, I want to kind of dig into that a

2258
02:03:55,960 --> 02:03:59,320
Speaker 2: little bit more and will continue our conversation. I've got

2259
02:03:59,360 --> 02:04:01,760
Speaker 2: to throw to Adds one last time and then we'll

2260
02:04:01,800 --> 02:04:14,920
Speaker 2: be back. We're back, Dana. Yeah, we're just talking about

2261
02:04:14,960 --> 02:04:17,360
Speaker 2: kind of the chilling effects this has had as an academic.

2262
02:04:18,080 --> 02:04:19,640
Speaker 2: Do you want to talk a little bit about what

2263
02:04:19,720 --> 02:04:22,800
Speaker 2: you've experienced so far and what you think kind of

2264
02:04:22,880 --> 02:04:25,960
Speaker 2: needs to be the response to this attempt to chill

2265
02:04:26,040 --> 02:04:29,800
Speaker 2: any kind of protected speech in favor of Palestine or

2266
02:04:29,840 --> 02:04:32,520
Speaker 2: not even in favor that's the wrong way to put it. Yeah,

2267
02:04:32,600 --> 02:04:35,080
Speaker 2: discussing the reality of the genocide.

2268
02:04:35,160 --> 02:04:37,800
Speaker 12: Yeah, I mean that's the thing is, like they have

2269
02:04:38,040 --> 02:04:43,600
Speaker 12: not They've conflated Yeah, any any attempt to give information

2270
02:04:44,280 --> 02:04:47,600
Speaker 12: with advocacy. Yes, so there's that conflation. But then, of

2271
02:04:47,600 --> 02:04:50,480
Speaker 12: course advocacy in and of itself is protected. Yes, you're

2272
02:04:50,520 --> 02:04:53,200
Speaker 12: certainly allowed to advocate if you're a student or things,

2273
02:04:53,320 --> 02:04:55,240
Speaker 12: or you know, a citizen in the world, like of course,

2274
02:04:55,560 --> 02:04:58,440
Speaker 12: so there is that conflation. And I will say that, like,

2275
02:04:59,000 --> 02:05:03,839
Speaker 12: we're seeing attacks on academic freedom, and we're seeing attacks

2276
02:05:03,840 --> 02:05:07,000
Speaker 12: on freedom of speech and freedom of assembly on academic campuses,

2277
02:05:07,280 --> 02:05:10,640
Speaker 12: both in public institutions, that have to uphold public laws

2278
02:05:10,720 --> 02:05:13,600
Speaker 12: and also in private institutions that have paid lip service

2279
02:05:13,640 --> 02:05:17,320
Speaker 12: to things like free speech and are now ignoring that

2280
02:05:17,480 --> 02:05:20,560
Speaker 12: commitment in the past. And so we've seen even tenured

2281
02:05:20,560 --> 02:05:23,800
Speaker 12: professors like what happened in Nihlenberg College, like tenured professors

2282
02:05:24,200 --> 02:05:28,480
Speaker 12: being targeted losing their jobs. And I can say that

2283
02:05:28,800 --> 02:05:32,960
Speaker 12: this has really activated organizations like the American Association of

2284
02:05:33,040 --> 02:05:36,840
Speaker 12: University Professors, the AAUP, the Middle East Studies Association as well.

2285
02:05:36,840 --> 02:05:40,960
Speaker 12: Their Committee on Academic Freedom has been working to collect

2286
02:05:41,040 --> 02:05:45,160
Speaker 12: data on how this has impacted people's abilities to engage

2287
02:05:45,160 --> 02:05:47,000
Speaker 12: on the issue of Israel Palast that even in their

2288
02:05:47,000 --> 02:05:49,600
Speaker 12: research or teaching. And then there was a study by

2289
02:05:49,640 --> 02:05:53,720
Speaker 12: two professors Mark Lynch and Shibity Tidhemi George Washington and

2290
02:05:54,400 --> 02:05:57,760
Speaker 12: University of Maryland respectively that found something like over ninety

2291
02:05:57,800 --> 02:06:02,120
Speaker 12: percent of professors who teach on the Middle East are

2292
02:06:02,160 --> 02:06:05,320
Speaker 12: self censoring Jesus. And it's not because they're out in

2293
02:06:05,440 --> 02:06:09,919
Speaker 12: front of the classroom giving a crap about giving their opinion.

2294
02:06:10,120 --> 02:06:11,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, I can tell.

2295
02:06:10,960 --> 02:06:15,480
Speaker 12: You none of us want to change anybody's minds about this.

2296
02:06:15,680 --> 02:06:19,040
Speaker 12: It's like they're literally just self censoring the content. Yeah,

2297
02:06:19,120 --> 02:06:23,000
Speaker 12: like we're just afraid to even address what happened, what's

2298
02:06:23,040 --> 02:06:27,040
Speaker 12: happening in a historical context, or you know, teaching a

2299
02:06:27,200 --> 02:06:30,080
Speaker 12: course on Israel Palestine or any of those kinds of

2300
02:06:30,120 --> 02:06:32,640
Speaker 12: things is now completely under the microscope.

2301
02:06:32,920 --> 02:06:34,800
Speaker 2: And this is all part of the whole kind of

2302
02:06:34,960 --> 02:06:39,680
Speaker 2: authoritarian chilling effect of any ability to express anything outside

2303
02:06:39,680 --> 02:06:42,320
Speaker 2: of like what the regimes can that you live under

2304
02:06:42,440 --> 02:06:47,400
Speaker 2: considers acceptable, you know, And it always starts with these well,

2305
02:06:47,480 --> 02:06:49,960
Speaker 2: you know, if we talk about Palistine and what's happening there,

2306
02:06:50,000 --> 02:06:52,920
Speaker 2: then maybe this department will get you know, its funding cut,

2307
02:06:52,960 --> 02:06:54,960
Speaker 2: and we won't be able to talk about anything. So really,

2308
02:06:55,000 --> 02:06:57,960
Speaker 2: this is the same decision a lot of hospitals are

2309
02:06:57,960 --> 02:07:00,880
Speaker 2: making around like the treatment for trade and skill wealth.

2310
02:07:01,560 --> 02:07:03,280
Speaker 2: We'll lose our funding if we do this, and we

2311
02:07:03,320 --> 02:07:07,040
Speaker 2: do all these other good things. But they never stop, right, like,

2312
02:07:07,120 --> 02:07:09,960
Speaker 2: you never actually are safe. There's no point at which

2313
02:07:09,960 --> 02:07:13,880
Speaker 2: these people say it's enough. They take your ability to

2314
02:07:14,000 --> 02:07:16,320
Speaker 2: talk about or to act in one way away, and

2315
02:07:16,360 --> 02:07:18,320
Speaker 2: then they take it in a way in another, and

2316
02:07:18,360 --> 02:07:21,839
Speaker 2: they keep taking, you know, until you make a stand,

2317
02:07:21,920 --> 02:07:24,000
Speaker 2: and you might as well make a stand the first

2318
02:07:24,040 --> 02:07:26,320
Speaker 2: time they start trying to take shit from you, otherwise

2319
02:07:26,320 --> 02:07:28,720
Speaker 2: you're going to get backed even further into a fucking corner.

2320
02:07:28,880 --> 02:07:32,560
Speaker 12: Yeah, there has to be institutions and leadership at these

2321
02:07:32,560 --> 02:07:37,320
Speaker 12: institutions holding a line because this kind of preemptive obedience

2322
02:07:37,880 --> 02:07:41,400
Speaker 12: hasn't served them and it's not going to change. Fundamentally,

2323
02:07:41,440 --> 02:07:47,320
Speaker 12: the fact that this administration sees academic knowledge production as

2324
02:07:47,600 --> 02:07:50,920
Speaker 12: a political landscape they need to control. And see, I

2325
02:07:50,920 --> 02:07:53,960
Speaker 12: mean Jadvan says it like professors are the enemy. Yeah,

2326
02:07:54,040 --> 02:07:56,400
Speaker 12: so what are you doing trying to placate you know,

2327
02:07:56,520 --> 02:07:59,280
Speaker 12: it's like you're just giving them an easier time.

2328
02:07:59,480 --> 02:07:59,560
Speaker 10: No.

2329
02:08:00,240 --> 02:08:03,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, Through the use of funding and their ability to

2330
02:08:03,880 --> 02:08:07,240
Speaker 2: kind of gin up outrage in media, groups like APEC

2331
02:08:07,280 --> 02:08:10,680
Speaker 2: have effectively blasted a salient in free speech in this

2332
02:08:10,760 --> 02:08:15,400
Speaker 2: country where you really you almost can't talk about Palestine

2333
02:08:15,440 --> 02:08:20,000
Speaker 2: and you certainly can't acknowledge what Israel is doing, right,

2334
02:08:20,080 --> 02:08:22,520
Speaker 2: You can't say it stayed in plane terms like we

2335
02:08:22,560 --> 02:08:25,480
Speaker 2: are watching a genocide be at least attempted here, right,

2336
02:08:25,840 --> 02:08:28,520
Speaker 2: And if you do that, there are huge consequences to

2337
02:08:28,640 --> 02:08:32,600
Speaker 2: most people in traditional organizations, particularly professors, which is always

2338
02:08:32,640 --> 02:08:36,760
Speaker 2: where it starts. And yeah, that salient is just going

2339
02:08:36,800 --> 02:08:39,640
Speaker 2: to get whiter and whiter and whiter, right, like that

2340
02:08:40,120 --> 02:08:42,080
Speaker 2: that's the way this stuff works.

2341
02:08:42,680 --> 02:08:46,520
Speaker 12: Yeah, yeah, I mean this is not a new argument,

2342
02:08:46,600 --> 02:08:50,360
Speaker 12: but it's like the ways in which the United States

2343
02:08:50,440 --> 02:08:54,120
Speaker 12: has engaged abroad. It's very much boomeranging home, you know.

2344
02:08:54,840 --> 02:08:57,120
Speaker 12: And so it's not about, like you said, it's not

2345
02:08:57,160 --> 02:08:59,760
Speaker 12: just about Palestine. It's not about people who studied Palestine

2346
02:08:59,760 --> 02:09:03,520
Speaker 12: are each about Israel Palestine. It's so much broader than that.

2347
02:09:03,600 --> 02:09:06,840
Speaker 12: The precedent that is being set, and what is like

2348
02:09:06,920 --> 02:09:09,280
Speaker 12: kind of a silver lining is that the last year

2349
02:09:09,280 --> 02:09:12,160
Speaker 12: of the Biden administration, the last year plus of the

2350
02:09:12,160 --> 02:09:15,440
Speaker 12: Biden administration, and then even now, I think at least

2351
02:09:15,440 --> 02:09:18,200
Speaker 12: it has helped people connect the dots a little bit,

2352
02:09:18,960 --> 02:09:21,720
Speaker 12: like this is not an issue in isolation, and just

2353
02:09:21,760 --> 02:09:23,680
Speaker 12: because you don't happen to work on it doesn't mean

2354
02:09:23,680 --> 02:09:28,160
Speaker 12: that you're safe from people meddling in your syllabi or

2355
02:09:29,240 --> 02:09:33,440
Speaker 12: chilling your speech on other issues, whether it's trans rights,

2356
02:09:33,560 --> 02:09:38,560
Speaker 12: whether it's you know, reproductive rights, whatever issue. If you

2357
02:09:38,600 --> 02:09:41,360
Speaker 12: don't toe the line, they're going to come for you too, right,

2358
02:09:41,760 --> 02:09:45,120
Speaker 12: And so I think that at least I've seen folks

2359
02:09:45,200 --> 02:09:48,360
Speaker 12: who are not who have never been, you know, activated

2360
02:09:48,360 --> 02:09:50,720
Speaker 12: on the issue of Israel Palestine, whether in their advocacy

2361
02:09:50,800 --> 02:09:54,120
Speaker 12: or in their research, they're making that connection at least,

2362
02:09:54,240 --> 02:09:56,880
Speaker 12: and maybe that's a silver lining that I'm trying to

2363
02:09:56,880 --> 02:09:57,600
Speaker 12: be less bleak here.

2364
02:09:57,680 --> 02:09:59,400
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I think that's helpful.

2365
02:10:00,000 --> 02:10:02,560
Speaker 2: You know, when I think about the hypocrisy of this moment,

2366
02:10:02,920 --> 02:10:06,280
Speaker 2: I think about how much of the clamping down on speech,

2367
02:10:06,320 --> 02:10:09,160
Speaker 2: particularly the attempt to punish like student protesters in the

2368
02:10:09,280 --> 02:10:14,400
Speaker 2: United States, is predicated on accusing them of backing HAMAS, right,

2369
02:10:14,760 --> 02:10:16,920
Speaker 2: And it's so interesting to me because, like, you know,

2370
02:10:17,000 --> 02:10:21,480
Speaker 2: obviously I don't think Hamas is a good organization, but

2371
02:10:21,680 --> 02:10:23,960
Speaker 2: neither is the IRA, and the former President of the

2372
02:10:24,040 --> 02:10:27,440
Speaker 2: United States, Joe Biden, made pro IRA statements, right, Like

2373
02:10:27,680 --> 02:10:30,280
Speaker 2: one thing is okay and the other is not. I

2374
02:10:30,280 --> 02:10:34,040
Speaker 2: don't know. I find it incredibly frustrating that like there's

2375
02:10:34,080 --> 02:10:38,000
Speaker 2: this pretended act that like, because you've got some people

2376
02:10:38,040 --> 02:10:39,960
Speaker 2: on one side who have made statements in favor of

2377
02:10:40,000 --> 02:10:43,360
Speaker 2: this group, that sucks that that is a reason for

2378
02:10:43,440 --> 02:10:46,680
Speaker 2: cracking down on the ability of people to talk about

2379
02:10:46,800 --> 02:10:50,920
Speaker 2: a genocide. Like it's it's just this hideous hypocrisy that

2380
02:10:51,000 --> 02:10:53,640
Speaker 2: I don't even understand how like people can keep that

2381
02:10:53,680 --> 02:10:55,720
Speaker 2: consistent in their own heads. But they don't need to, right,

2382
02:10:55,800 --> 02:10:57,320
Speaker 2: That's always the thing with fascists.

2383
02:10:57,400 --> 02:11:00,440
Speaker 12: No, there's no need for consistency. Yeah, yeah, I mean

2384
02:11:00,560 --> 02:11:03,040
Speaker 12: that's the thing. Is like, first of all, the conflation

2385
02:11:03,280 --> 02:11:06,920
Speaker 12: that like the entire movement made such a statement or

2386
02:11:07,000 --> 02:11:09,240
Speaker 12: you know, I mean obviously that that in and of

2387
02:11:09,280 --> 02:11:12,760
Speaker 12: itself is dishonest. And like you said, it's not that

2388
02:11:12,760 --> 02:11:15,160
Speaker 12: they care about consistency and they don't have to maintain

2389
02:11:15,440 --> 02:11:19,600
Speaker 12: an honest approach to this. They're just using these isolated

2390
02:11:19,720 --> 02:11:25,640
Speaker 12: incidents of particular you know, particular students or particular groups

2391
02:11:26,280 --> 02:11:31,520
Speaker 12: to shut down any speech around it. And I was

2392
02:11:31,720 --> 02:11:36,080
Speaker 12: featured in this like Vox video and it was just

2393
02:11:36,120 --> 02:11:41,000
Speaker 12: like an explainer, and I received some harassment and like

2394
02:11:41,560 --> 02:11:45,720
Speaker 12: accusations that because I was providing context in a Vox video,

2395
02:11:45,920 --> 02:11:47,760
Speaker 12: which is what I was asked to do based on

2396
02:11:47,840 --> 02:11:52,880
Speaker 12: my expertise, that I was making excuses for, you know,

2397
02:11:52,880 --> 02:11:54,680
Speaker 12: what had happened on October seventh. And I was like,

2398
02:11:55,000 --> 02:11:58,120
Speaker 12: is the red line now? Just even discussing anything like

2399
02:11:58,720 --> 02:12:01,520
Speaker 12: with any kind of expert tease or information like it's

2400
02:12:01,560 --> 02:12:03,000
Speaker 12: it's uh, yeah, it's mind boggling.

2401
02:12:03,040 --> 02:12:05,120
Speaker 2: I mean, I guess I think that is what they

2402
02:12:05,160 --> 02:12:08,360
Speaker 2: want to make thee Yeah. Yeah, what you went through

2403
02:12:08,400 --> 02:12:10,320
Speaker 2: there too makes me so angry when I read shit

2404
02:12:10,480 --> 02:12:14,040
Speaker 2: like and this is not on Gillibrand, but Christin Gillibrand

2405
02:12:14,120 --> 02:12:17,280
Speaker 2: was on someone's podcast recently talking about why some of

2406
02:12:17,280 --> 02:12:20,480
Speaker 2: her Republican colleagues who had expressed opposition to some of

2407
02:12:20,520 --> 02:12:23,280
Speaker 2: Trump's picks ultimately voted for them. And she's like, they're

2408
02:12:23,280 --> 02:12:27,160
Speaker 2: scared of getting murdered, and like, isn't everyone who says anything,

2409
02:12:27,320 --> 02:12:29,720
Speaker 2: and like you've got death threats for a vox video,

2410
02:12:29,960 --> 02:12:32,520
Speaker 2: Like why are these Congress people who have so many

2411
02:12:32,560 --> 02:12:34,600
Speaker 2: more resources to protect themselves, why do they get to

2412
02:12:34,600 --> 02:12:35,080
Speaker 2: be scared?

2413
02:12:35,280 --> 02:12:38,360
Speaker 12: Oh well that's that's yeah, Congress, And it's and it's

2414
02:12:38,640 --> 02:12:42,160
Speaker 12: inability to do anything, Like yeah, that's that's a whole

2415
02:12:42,240 --> 02:12:44,480
Speaker 12: other level of demoralization.

2416
02:12:44,840 --> 02:12:46,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, is there anything else you wanted to make sure

2417
02:12:46,760 --> 02:12:49,120
Speaker 2: we hit on during this conversation before we sort of

2418
02:12:49,160 --> 02:12:49,920
Speaker 2: close things out.

2419
02:12:50,160 --> 02:12:52,080
Speaker 12: I'm not sure if maybe this is two in the weeds,

2420
02:12:52,120 --> 02:12:54,680
Speaker 12: but I think there's been a lot discussed around Trump

2421
02:12:54,720 --> 02:12:57,520
Speaker 12: and the statements around Gaza and his and his supposed

2422
02:12:57,560 --> 02:13:00,440
Speaker 12: plans for Gaza, and some analysts have claimed that this

2423
02:13:00,480 --> 02:13:03,320
Speaker 12: has to do with like taking an extreme position, so

2424
02:13:03,360 --> 02:13:07,520
Speaker 12: that then Arab Israeli normalization deals could make the claim that,

2425
02:13:07,600 --> 02:13:10,280
Speaker 12: like we talked him down from this brink, yeah, and

2426
02:13:10,360 --> 02:13:13,400
Speaker 12: like Saudi is going to make peace with Israel and

2427
02:13:13,560 --> 02:13:16,720
Speaker 12: claim that we convinced Trump not to do this kind

2428
02:13:16,760 --> 02:13:21,680
Speaker 12: of thing. And so that's been something I've read in

2429
02:13:21,720 --> 02:13:25,240
Speaker 12: some analysis, and I don't think it's actually correct. I

2430
02:13:25,280 --> 02:13:28,520
Speaker 12: don't think that Trump is making these kinds of statements

2431
02:13:28,640 --> 02:13:31,800
Speaker 12: or possibly these kinds of plans, just as kind of

2432
02:13:31,880 --> 02:13:35,040
Speaker 12: like I don't know, multi level chess with Saudi Arabia

2433
02:13:35,080 --> 02:13:37,400
Speaker 12: to get them to sign a peace deal with Israel,

2434
02:13:37,760 --> 02:13:40,680
Speaker 12: and the conditions in the region I think have really shifted.

2435
02:13:40,680 --> 02:13:42,920
Speaker 12: And I don't think Saudi Arabia, as I mentioned at

2436
02:13:42,920 --> 02:13:46,440
Speaker 12: the beginning, because they put out statements to this effect,

2437
02:13:46,200 --> 02:13:48,720
Speaker 12: I don't think they're at all interested in this kind

2438
02:13:48,760 --> 02:13:52,360
Speaker 12: of move right at this point. So I just maybe

2439
02:13:52,400 --> 02:13:54,560
Speaker 12: I would only add that Trump is not playing this

2440
02:13:54,680 --> 02:13:56,400
Speaker 12: long game that we think he is. Maybe we can

2441
02:13:56,400 --> 02:13:57,280
Speaker 12: take him at his word.

2442
02:13:57,920 --> 02:14:01,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, No, I know, because like Biden was playing a

2443
02:14:01,160 --> 02:14:03,440
Speaker 2: long game, a dumb long game, but a long game

2444
02:14:03,520 --> 02:14:07,360
Speaker 2: trying to brokers deal with like Saudi Arabia and Israel

2445
02:14:07,520 --> 02:14:11,919
Speaker 2: that I'm again I think deranged. If there's clear evidence

2446
02:14:11,960 --> 02:14:15,680
Speaker 2: that the fact that he was not compassmentous, it's that right.

2447
02:14:16,160 --> 02:14:18,640
Speaker 2: But it was a long game, and I don't think

2448
02:14:18,720 --> 02:14:22,000
Speaker 2: that Trump is I don't think Trump cares about that.

2449
02:14:22,520 --> 02:14:24,840
Speaker 12: Yeah, and the region has changed so much, you know,

2450
02:14:24,920 --> 02:14:26,680
Speaker 12: for whether we like it or not, Like Iran is

2451
02:14:26,680 --> 02:14:29,080
Speaker 12: not the threat it used to be, closer ties with

2452
02:14:29,080 --> 02:14:33,480
Speaker 12: Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia, I mean, has a huge influence

2453
02:14:33,520 --> 02:14:35,960
Speaker 12: on the new Syrian government, Like they don't need this,

2454
02:14:36,040 --> 02:14:38,200
Speaker 12: they don't need this, and like this is not this

2455
02:14:38,320 --> 02:14:43,120
Speaker 12: kind of long game, multi level chess, you know, mastermind

2456
02:14:43,120 --> 02:14:45,440
Speaker 12: over here that Trump is now doing. So yeah, I

2457
02:14:45,440 --> 02:14:46,320
Speaker 12: just wanted to add that.

2458
02:14:46,400 --> 02:14:49,200
Speaker 2: People are just doing shit and trying to grab onto

2459
02:14:49,200 --> 02:14:50,120
Speaker 2: whatever they can.

2460
02:14:50,280 --> 02:14:52,760
Speaker 12: Right and like let's see what sticks, essentially.

2461
02:14:52,600 --> 02:14:54,920
Speaker 2: Exactly I mean, and that is so much of that

2462
02:14:55,000 --> 02:14:58,520
Speaker 2: is the entirety of the current plan of the new

2463
02:14:58,520 --> 02:15:01,200
Speaker 2: regime in the United States is row everything you can

2464
02:15:01,320 --> 02:15:02,720
Speaker 2: out there and see what sticks.

2465
02:15:02,960 --> 02:15:03,160
Speaker 3: You know.

2466
02:15:03,640 --> 02:15:05,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're doing that in Gaza, just like they're doing

2467
02:15:05,800 --> 02:15:09,480
Speaker 2: it everywhere else. Well, Donna, thank you so much. Do

2468
02:15:09,520 --> 02:15:11,360
Speaker 2: you want to plug anything at the end of this

2469
02:15:11,640 --> 02:15:13,320
Speaker 2: your own stuff or something else.

2470
02:15:13,600 --> 02:15:16,520
Speaker 12: Check out I Guess The Fire These Times podcast. I

2471
02:15:16,560 --> 02:15:17,840
Speaker 12: sometimes do episode for.

2472
02:15:17,800 --> 02:15:19,320
Speaker 2: Them, Yes, yes, yes, yes.

2473
02:15:19,560 --> 02:15:22,920
Speaker 12: And if you're looking for organizations to help support gosins

2474
02:15:23,000 --> 02:15:26,080
Speaker 12: right now, Heal Palestine or a nara A n E

2475
02:15:26,320 --> 02:15:28,720
Speaker 12: r A are both doing really crucial work.

2476
02:15:29,000 --> 02:15:31,400
Speaker 2: Excellent, excellent, We'll check that out. Definitely check out The

2477
02:15:31,400 --> 02:15:34,600
Speaker 2: Fire These Times and that's a great place to send

2478
02:15:34,640 --> 02:15:36,880
Speaker 2: some aid. Donna, thank you so much for being on

2479
02:15:37,080 --> 02:15:39,600
Speaker 2: the show again. And yeah, I hope you Uh, I

2480
02:15:39,600 --> 02:15:42,720
Speaker 2: don't know, I hope, I hope.

2481
02:15:43,440 --> 02:15:44,640
Speaker 5: I hope that's what I got.

2482
02:15:44,840 --> 02:15:45,080
Speaker 12: Hope.

2483
02:15:45,480 --> 02:15:46,879
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, thanks.

2484
02:15:46,640 --> 02:15:47,240
Speaker 1: For having.

2485
02:16:12,720 --> 02:16:15,360
Speaker 2: Welcome to the Birds and the Bees, a podcast where

2486
02:16:15,480 --> 02:16:19,160
Speaker 2: James Stout makes animal noises and also we talk about

2487
02:16:19,200 --> 02:16:21,880
Speaker 2: what's going on in the White House this week.

2488
02:16:22,040 --> 02:16:24,960
Speaker 7: That's right, this is it could happen here Executive Disorder,

2489
02:16:25,000 --> 02:16:27,240
Speaker 7: our weekly newscast covering what's happening in the White House,

2490
02:16:27,520 --> 02:16:30,680
Speaker 7: the crumbling of our world, and what this means for you.

2491
02:16:30,880 --> 02:16:34,160
Speaker 7: That is Robert talking previously. James Stout is also here.

2492
02:16:34,440 --> 02:16:37,480
Speaker 7: I'm Garrison Davis. I'm also joined by Mia Wong. This episode,

2493
02:16:37,480 --> 02:16:41,240
Speaker 7: we're covering the week of February sixth to February twelfth. Currently,

2494
02:16:41,480 --> 02:16:45,680
Speaker 7: ME and Mia are inside New Orleans, Louisiana, and I

2495
02:16:45,720 --> 02:16:48,640
Speaker 7: am proud to report that fascism has been defeated. The

2496
02:16:48,680 --> 02:16:52,080
Speaker 7: Philadelphia Eagles have beat the KK Kansas City Chiefs in

2497
02:16:52,200 --> 02:16:56,400
Speaker 7: Super Bowl. Drake has been executed live on stage. It's

2498
02:16:56,400 --> 02:16:57,000
Speaker 7: a great week.

2499
02:16:58,560 --> 02:17:00,840
Speaker 2: That would have been kinder than what I actually happened

2500
02:17:00,840 --> 02:17:01,279
Speaker 2: to Drake.

2501
02:17:03,400 --> 02:17:05,720
Speaker 3: Look as someone, as someone in my brusk I mentioned,

2502
02:17:05,720 --> 02:17:09,680
Speaker 3: says capitalism. Currently the rule of capitalism seems inescapable, but

2503
02:17:09,720 --> 02:17:12,680
Speaker 3: the divine, the divine rule of the Chiefs once seemed

2504
02:17:12,720 --> 02:17:15,959
Speaker 3: undefeatable too. And they were fucking humiliated.

2505
02:17:16,720 --> 02:17:18,560
Speaker 5: Oh my god, they lost so bad.

2506
02:17:19,160 --> 02:17:21,959
Speaker 3: I can't even I can't even say that they were

2507
02:17:21,959 --> 02:17:23,960
Speaker 3: beaten up and down the field, because I'd even fucking

2508
02:17:24,000 --> 02:17:28,680
Speaker 3: get down the field, obliterately generational beat down.

2509
02:17:29,000 --> 02:17:33,040
Speaker 7: And yeah, when I arrived here in New Orleans on Monday,

2510
02:17:33,600 --> 02:17:35,440
Speaker 7: this is the Monday after the Super Bowl, so a

2511
02:17:35,480 --> 02:17:40,199
Speaker 7: complete nightmare. But there was just an ocean of an

2512
02:17:40,360 --> 02:17:43,720
Speaker 7: ocean of out and proud Eagles fans. And the funniest

2513
02:17:43,720 --> 02:17:45,320
Speaker 7: thing I saw is that when I was waiting for

2514
02:17:45,360 --> 02:17:47,520
Speaker 7: me to fly in, there was this like half a

2515
02:17:47,560 --> 02:17:50,520
Speaker 7: full clothing rack, a leftover Chiefs merch.

2516
02:17:52,680 --> 02:17:54,720
Speaker 3: And all of the Eagles merch were gone.

2517
02:17:55,000 --> 02:17:57,760
Speaker 6: I will see that Chiefs merch again somewhere in like

2518
02:17:57,760 --> 02:18:00,760
Speaker 6: a resource pause setting, and it's from now.

2519
02:18:01,040 --> 02:18:03,879
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, that's going to be the uniform of a

2520
02:18:03,920 --> 02:18:05,800
Speaker 2: future civil war.

2521
02:18:08,720 --> 02:18:12,720
Speaker 7: Literally literally Taylor Swift themed Kansas City Chiefs merch.

2522
02:18:13,000 --> 02:18:15,640
Speaker 5: Ah. Yeah, huge Alpha capital.

2523
02:18:15,680 --> 02:18:20,600
Speaker 2: It's so funny. Oh man, Well, I guess. Yeah. The

2524
02:18:20,680 --> 02:18:25,360
Speaker 2: big losers this week, Drake and unfortunately the nation of

2525
02:18:25,520 --> 02:18:28,279
Speaker 2: Ukraine and most of the rest of Western Europe. Yeah,

2526
02:18:28,400 --> 02:18:30,760
Speaker 2: I guess We'll start with the big news today, which

2527
02:18:30,800 --> 02:18:33,320
Speaker 2: is that Trump just had a really great call with

2528
02:18:33,400 --> 02:18:36,440
Speaker 2: Vladimir Putin, went super well. They're going to be meeting,

2529
02:18:36,560 --> 02:18:40,160
Speaker 2: maybe in Saudi Arabia. There's been some floating of the

2530
02:18:40,160 --> 02:18:42,600
Speaker 2: fact that they might meet at the White House, which

2531
02:18:42,680 --> 02:18:45,280
Speaker 2: I don't think it ends well for Putin if he

2532
02:18:45,360 --> 02:18:47,039
Speaker 2: visits the Uniteds. I don't think it ends well for

2533
02:18:47,080 --> 02:18:49,959
Speaker 2: anybody if he visits the United States. This country is

2534
02:18:50,000 --> 02:18:53,959
Speaker 2: too heavily armed and crazy right now. But they're doing

2535
02:18:54,040 --> 02:18:56,840
Speaker 2: this because Putin and Trump have evidently reached some sort

2536
02:18:56,840 --> 02:18:59,920
Speaker 2: of agreement about the end of the war in Ukraine. Zelensk,

2537
02:19:00,080 --> 02:19:04,920
Speaker 2: he was not really consulted on this. He's made a

2538
02:19:04,920 --> 02:19:08,120
Speaker 2: couple of statements like, yep, we're hoping that this is

2539
02:19:08,160 --> 02:19:10,640
Speaker 2: what pushes everything towards peace, but it's very clear that

2540
02:19:10,760 --> 02:19:13,000
Speaker 2: what's happening is Ukraine is going to be made to

2541
02:19:13,040 --> 02:19:15,720
Speaker 2: give up a decent chunk of their territory. Now they

2542
02:19:15,720 --> 02:19:18,959
Speaker 2: do have Russian territory still to bargain with somewhat, so

2543
02:19:20,040 --> 02:19:22,280
Speaker 2: it hopefully will not be a situation where Putin gets

2544
02:19:22,360 --> 02:19:25,360
Speaker 2: is entirely his own way. But that is kind of

2545
02:19:25,400 --> 02:19:28,480
Speaker 2: the what's happening. And the sea change that will accompany

2546
02:19:28,520 --> 02:19:32,520
Speaker 2: this is that new Secretary of Defense and Alcoholic Pete

2547
02:19:32,520 --> 02:19:35,680
Speaker 2: Hegseth made a statement and a meeting in Brussels that

2548
02:19:35,720 --> 02:19:38,480
Speaker 2: the United States will no longer be the guarante of

2549
02:19:38,760 --> 02:19:41,720
Speaker 2: peace in Europe. Specifically, he stated that we're not going

2550
02:19:41,760 --> 02:19:45,680
Speaker 2: to tolerate of an imbalanced relationship which encourages dependency. But

2551
02:19:45,800 --> 02:19:49,480
Speaker 2: this was an announcement that the post war sort of

2552
02:19:49,520 --> 02:19:53,160
Speaker 2: status quo is no longer something that we can rely

2553
02:19:53,280 --> 02:19:56,600
Speaker 2: on going forward, and that is a really significant admission

2554
02:19:56,640 --> 02:19:57,440
Speaker 2: from the sec deaff.

2555
02:19:57,640 --> 02:20:01,240
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's sick, it's pretty cool and it's gonna be great.

2556
02:20:02,080 --> 02:20:02,760
Speaker 5: It's gonna be great.

2557
02:20:02,760 --> 02:20:05,280
Speaker 6: If you're in the German arms industry, it's gonna be

2558
02:20:05,320 --> 02:20:06,480
Speaker 6: a banger year for you.

2559
02:20:06,280 --> 02:20:07,879
Speaker 5: You making simil.

2560
02:20:08,080 --> 02:20:10,320
Speaker 2: I think we could all agree the future is bright

2561
02:20:10,400 --> 02:20:11,520
Speaker 2: for German weaponry.

2562
02:20:11,720 --> 02:20:15,520
Speaker 5: Yeah, once again Germany will rise to its former glory. Hussah.

2563
02:20:15,760 --> 02:20:17,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, you say that as kind of a joke, but

2564
02:20:17,680 --> 02:20:20,680
Speaker 3: like genuinely the fact that we are doing a bunch

2565
02:20:20,720 --> 02:20:22,840
Speaker 3: of stuff that is leading to the full re armament

2566
02:20:22,920 --> 02:20:25,360
Speaker 3: of the German army at the moment when the German

2567
02:20:25,400 --> 02:20:29,080
Speaker 3: fascist parties are like about to take power.

2568
02:20:29,240 --> 02:20:31,800
Speaker 2: When off Day is getting into power, Yeah, it's great.

2569
02:20:31,800 --> 02:20:33,880
Speaker 6: And the Luftwaffe hasn't even bother to change his slogo

2570
02:20:33,920 --> 02:20:35,320
Speaker 6: since the last time, so that's cool.

2571
02:20:35,440 --> 02:20:37,240
Speaker 2: Well, and what you bring up there me is probably

2572
02:20:37,240 --> 02:20:39,959
Speaker 2: worth discussing in concert with all of this, which is

2573
02:20:40,000 --> 02:20:44,039
Speaker 2: that AfD off Day, the Alternative for Deutschland, which is

2574
02:20:44,120 --> 02:20:48,920
Speaker 2: the new Nazi Party in Germany, is not the majoritarian party,

2575
02:20:48,959 --> 02:20:52,320
Speaker 2: but is taking enough seats that it is going to

2576
02:20:52,360 --> 02:20:55,960
Speaker 2: be included in the next governing coalition, which is something

2577
02:20:55,959 --> 02:20:58,880
Speaker 2: that has not happened in the post World War Two era.

2578
02:20:59,360 --> 02:21:03,000
Speaker 2: In the immediate aftermath of World War Two, every Western

2579
02:21:03,000 --> 02:21:07,240
Speaker 2: European nation basically came to a tacit agreement referred to

2580
02:21:07,280 --> 02:21:09,760
Speaker 2: as the Cordon sanitaire, which is when a right wing

2581
02:21:09,800 --> 02:21:12,760
Speaker 2: party starts to gain power, you do not coalition with

2582
02:21:12,840 --> 02:21:16,879
Speaker 2: them under any circumstances. Germany is actually like the last

2583
02:21:17,080 --> 02:21:20,760
Speaker 2: of the European countries to give up this idea. But

2584
02:21:20,920 --> 02:21:23,840
Speaker 2: the fact that the Cordon sanitaire has fallen in Germany

2585
02:21:23,959 --> 02:21:25,600
Speaker 2: is real bad news.

2586
02:21:26,040 --> 02:21:29,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, and the ADF, like it's worth mentioning, right, Like

2587
02:21:29,400 --> 02:21:32,440
Speaker 3: the ADF is so right wing and so nazi that,

2588
02:21:32,520 --> 02:21:36,320
Speaker 3: like the Italian Fascists to our empower right now, will

2589
02:21:36,360 --> 02:21:37,320
Speaker 3: not work with them.

2590
02:21:37,160 --> 02:21:39,080
Speaker 2: Like yeah, yeah, A bunch.

2591
02:21:38,959 --> 02:21:42,640
Speaker 3: Of stuff leaked a little while ago about these people

2592
02:21:42,680 --> 02:21:45,480
Speaker 3: at meetings openly talking about deporting every single Jew and

2593
02:21:45,480 --> 02:21:48,240
Speaker 3: every single immigrant from the country. Like these people are

2594
02:21:48,680 --> 02:21:52,640
Speaker 3: you know, I mean, they're just Nazis. And yeah, so

2595
02:21:52,720 --> 02:21:57,400
Speaker 3: now we're fucking handing them the fucking justification to fucking

2596
02:21:57,400 --> 02:22:01,199
Speaker 3: rebuild their entire arms industry. So yep, rich stuff.

2597
02:22:01,280 --> 02:22:03,720
Speaker 2: It is dark, I mean. And again when we say

2598
02:22:03,720 --> 02:22:08,439
Speaker 2: the Italian Fascist this is literally Mussolini's party, as in

2599
02:22:08,480 --> 02:22:12,280
Speaker 2: his granddaughter it's a member. Yeah, yeah, so, yeah, that's bad.

2600
02:22:12,320 --> 02:22:15,279
Speaker 2: I think that's probably most of what we can say

2601
02:22:15,360 --> 02:22:18,200
Speaker 2: about what's going on in Europe and with Ukraine right now.

2602
02:22:18,240 --> 02:22:19,320
Speaker 2: But it's not good.

2603
02:22:19,560 --> 02:22:22,640
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, it's not good. It doesn't point to a

2604
02:22:22,640 --> 02:22:23,199
Speaker 5: great future.

2605
02:22:23,240 --> 02:22:26,360
Speaker 6: And this is the multi polar world that like Russia

2606
02:22:26,400 --> 02:22:29,520
Speaker 6: has wanted for some time, like coming to fruition, right,

2607
02:22:30,080 --> 02:22:32,800
Speaker 6: and I didn't want to talk about. So there was

2608
02:22:32,840 --> 02:22:36,360
Speaker 6: a time when Vladimir Putin some as you remember, was

2609
02:22:36,720 --> 02:22:40,240
Speaker 6: sanctioned by the International Criminal Court for his war crimes

2610
02:22:40,240 --> 02:22:43,840
Speaker 6: in Ukraine the United States. However, the United States has

2611
02:22:43,879 --> 02:22:46,440
Speaker 6: not been a signatory to the Rome Statute, so it

2612
02:22:46,720 --> 02:22:50,920
Speaker 6: wouldn't necessarily have enforced that arrest warrant anyway. But this

2613
02:22:51,000 --> 02:22:55,680
Speaker 6: week Trump signed a little executive order titled in block capitals,

2614
02:22:55,680 --> 02:22:58,840
Speaker 6: as We've come to expect, imposing sanctions on the International

2615
02:22:58,840 --> 02:23:03,520
Speaker 6: Criminal Court. In doing so, he followed the example of Putin,

2616
02:23:03,560 --> 02:23:06,080
Speaker 6: who in twenty twenty three put out arrest warrants for

2617
02:23:06,560 --> 02:23:10,240
Speaker 6: ICC prosecutors after they put out a warrant for his arrest.

2618
02:23:11,080 --> 02:23:14,760
Speaker 6: Trump didn't cite the Putin example. He called the ICC's

2619
02:23:14,920 --> 02:23:19,560
Speaker 6: actions against Israel illegitimate and baseless. That's a quote He

2620
02:23:19,680 --> 02:23:24,240
Speaker 6: specifically called the warrants against UF Gallant and Benjamin Etting

2621
02:23:24,320 --> 02:23:27,720
Speaker 6: Yahoo baseless. He then went on to claim, quote, both

2622
02:23:27,840 --> 02:23:31,080
Speaker 6: nations are thriving democracies with militaries strictly adhered to.

2623
02:23:31,000 --> 02:23:33,000
Speaker 5: The laws of war. This is a thing that is

2624
02:23:33,040 --> 02:23:33,520
Speaker 5: not true.

2625
02:23:34,280 --> 02:23:37,680
Speaker 6: His order then goes on to outline what it calls

2626
02:23:37,800 --> 02:23:41,000
Speaker 6: protected persons for people who an't familiar at the United States.

2627
02:23:41,040 --> 02:23:44,160
Speaker 6: Person is distinguished from the United States citizen. It also

2628
02:23:44,160 --> 02:23:47,680
Speaker 6: includes any permanent residents. It also includes US Armed Forces

2629
02:23:47,720 --> 02:23:51,360
Speaker 6: government officials and contractors working on behalf of US Armed

2630
02:23:51,360 --> 02:23:55,520
Speaker 6: Forces contractors Yeah, yeah, yeah, the people who can do

2631
02:23:55,560 --> 02:23:58,600
Speaker 6: no wrong. It then goes on to include US allies,

2632
02:23:58,680 --> 02:24:01,920
Speaker 6: including all of NATO and sometimes contractors working on their behalf.

2633
02:24:02,320 --> 02:24:04,960
Speaker 6: It says that if the International Criminal Court investigates any

2634
02:24:05,000 --> 02:24:08,000
Speaker 6: of these people, Trump called the Clara National Emergency. It

2635
02:24:08,120 --> 02:24:12,920
Speaker 6: also imposes material sanctions and travel bands on both ICC

2636
02:24:13,160 --> 02:24:15,880
Speaker 6: prosecutors and people acting on their warrants, as well of

2637
02:24:15,920 --> 02:24:17,199
Speaker 6: the families of those people.

2638
02:24:17,480 --> 02:24:17,959
Speaker 3: Interesting.

2639
02:24:18,360 --> 02:24:22,120
Speaker 6: Yeah, this is an unprecedented American politics, and sometimes it

2640
02:24:22,160 --> 02:24:25,280
Speaker 6: gets reported like it is. I want to throw back

2641
02:24:25,320 --> 02:24:28,320
Speaker 6: to what they called the Hague Invasion Act that wasn't

2642
02:24:28,360 --> 02:24:32,880
Speaker 6: its real name, but that was George Bush's. Like it

2643
02:24:32,959 --> 02:24:35,920
Speaker 6: authorized the President to use any means necessary to release

2644
02:24:36,040 --> 02:24:39,200
Speaker 6: United States people held by the ICC or at its request,

2645
02:24:39,600 --> 02:24:41,800
Speaker 6: So people studied calling it the Hague Invasion Act.

2646
02:24:41,879 --> 02:24:42,080
Speaker 5: Right.

2647
02:24:42,680 --> 02:24:46,120
Speaker 6: Trump did also sanction ICC prosecutors and their families in

2648
02:24:46,200 --> 02:24:49,879
Speaker 6: twenty twenty for looking into US war crimes in Afghanistan.

2649
02:24:50,280 --> 02:24:52,680
Speaker 6: I think that happened in June of twenty twenty, so

2650
02:24:52,840 --> 02:24:56,280
Speaker 6: you can be forgiven for having missed up because some

2651
02:24:56,320 --> 02:24:57,840
Speaker 6: stuff was happening at that time.

2652
02:24:58,000 --> 02:25:01,000
Speaker 5: Oh was it? Yeah, things were going down.

2653
02:25:01,360 --> 02:25:04,840
Speaker 6: I'm sure the Philadelphia Eagles were beginning their rise to

2654
02:25:04,840 --> 02:25:07,720
Speaker 6: glory again. That was a big thing. Kansas City chiefs

2655
02:25:07,720 --> 02:25:10,720
Speaker 6: were doing some racist shit shockingly, shockingly. I'm sure Taylor

2656
02:25:10,720 --> 02:25:13,080
Speaker 6: Swift was doing something too. But yeah, this is like

2657
02:25:13,360 --> 02:25:16,400
Speaker 6: Israel has for nearly a decade been trying to hack

2658
02:25:16,440 --> 02:25:19,240
Speaker 6: smea surveil and threaten the Court. In the show notes,

2659
02:25:19,280 --> 02:25:21,400
Speaker 6: I'll include a link to a Guardian article that came

2660
02:25:21,440 --> 02:25:24,959
Speaker 6: out last year about Israel's attacks and attempts to undermine the.

2661
02:25:24,920 --> 02:25:26,000
Speaker 5: International Criminal Court.

2662
02:25:26,440 --> 02:25:29,000
Speaker 6: And just if I've been talking about something and you're like,

2663
02:25:29,080 --> 02:25:32,640
Speaker 6: what is the International Criminal Court? Very Briefly, it's based

2664
02:25:32,680 --> 02:25:34,360
Speaker 6: at the Hague. So if you've heard, you know you

2665
02:25:34,400 --> 02:25:36,520
Speaker 6: will stand trial at the Hague. That's what they're talking about.

2666
02:25:36,840 --> 02:25:39,840
Speaker 6: It has its most immediate routes in the tribunals investigated

2667
02:25:39,840 --> 02:25:44,720
Speaker 6: perpetrators of genocides in Rwanda and Yugoslavia. The US and

2668
02:25:44,800 --> 02:25:46,959
Speaker 6: Israel are not members of the court. They never signed

2669
02:25:47,000 --> 02:25:50,240
Speaker 6: the Rome Statute. Russia withdrew in twenty sixteen.

2670
02:25:50,440 --> 02:25:51,640
Speaker 3: Curious time to withdraw.

2671
02:25:52,120 --> 02:25:53,279
Speaker 5: Interesting, fascinating.

2672
02:25:53,360 --> 02:25:56,880
Speaker 6: Yeah, they just decided that it wasn't for them, and

2673
02:25:56,959 --> 02:26:00,920
Speaker 6: off they went to do some war grants. The ICC

2674
02:26:01,080 --> 02:26:04,480
Speaker 6: has been criticized, probably reasonably, for the vast majority of

2675
02:26:04,480 --> 02:26:06,920
Speaker 6: the people who have actually been prosecuted for the ICC

2676
02:26:07,160 --> 02:26:11,279
Speaker 6: being outside of the core neoliberal states. Right, it's prosecuted

2677
02:26:11,320 --> 02:26:13,920
Speaker 6: a lot of people in Africa. That doesn't mean that

2678
02:26:13,959 --> 02:26:16,080
Speaker 6: like African people can't do war crimes in Africa, of

2679
02:26:16,080 --> 02:26:18,959
Speaker 6: course they can, but it means that they're held accountable

2680
02:26:19,000 --> 02:26:22,640
Speaker 6: more often than when countries in the global North do

2681
02:26:22,760 --> 02:26:25,920
Speaker 6: war crimes, which they can do too. Okay, So Trump,

2682
02:26:26,240 --> 02:26:29,440
Speaker 6: that's like everything else he does, was condemned internationally for

2683
02:26:29,480 --> 02:26:32,000
Speaker 6: this right, including by several NATO allies. In so much

2684
02:26:32,000 --> 02:26:34,560
Speaker 6: as they really are NATO allies anymore given everything we've

2685
02:26:34,600 --> 02:26:37,760
Speaker 6: just talked about. However, it's also worth noting that some

2686
02:26:37,840 --> 02:26:41,080
Speaker 6: of the countries like France, who condemned Trump's sanctioning of

2687
02:26:41,240 --> 02:26:45,280
Speaker 6: ICC prosecutors, also allowed someone with an ICC warrant I

2688
02:26:45,440 --> 02:26:48,720
Speaker 6: Benjamin that's in Yahoo to transit their airspace. So like,

2689
02:26:49,320 --> 02:26:53,080
Speaker 6: therefore commitment to the ICC perhaps can be questioned, Like

2690
02:26:53,080 --> 02:26:55,039
Speaker 6: this is a problem with the ICC, right it doesn't

2691
02:26:55,040 --> 02:26:56,959
Speaker 6: have an integral enforcement mechanism.

2692
02:26:57,320 --> 02:27:01,160
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, I mean like Canada previous sleep promised quote

2693
02:27:01,200 --> 02:27:04,440
Speaker 7: unquote promised, yeah, to arrest nat Yahoo if they were

2694
02:27:04,520 --> 02:27:07,600
Speaker 7: ever like able to, And like, yeah, I'm very curious

2695
02:27:07,600 --> 02:27:08,920
Speaker 7: to see how this is going to shake down with

2696
02:27:08,959 --> 02:27:12,119
Speaker 7: the US taking like an extremely firmer stance at least

2697
02:27:12,200 --> 02:27:13,280
Speaker 7: than we previously had.

2698
02:27:13,320 --> 02:27:15,039
Speaker 3: We already like you know, quote.

2699
02:27:14,879 --> 02:27:18,440
Speaker 7: Unquote like condemnic Canada, but like I'm interested to see

2700
02:27:18,440 --> 02:27:21,039
Speaker 7: Trump like be more interested in actually pushing this further

2701
02:27:21,440 --> 02:27:22,240
Speaker 7: than it has been.

2702
02:27:22,760 --> 02:27:24,080
Speaker 5: Yeah, I guess we'll see how it goes.

2703
02:27:24,240 --> 02:27:26,400
Speaker 6: For people who are unfamiliar, I do want to like

2704
02:27:26,680 --> 02:27:30,000
Speaker 6: really quickly mention that like Palestine is a signatory and

2705
02:27:30,040 --> 02:27:33,080
Speaker 6: therefore war crime to happen within Palestine and covered by

2706
02:27:33,080 --> 02:27:36,800
Speaker 6: the CORE. Even if states such as Israel are not signatories,

2707
02:27:37,160 --> 02:27:40,560
Speaker 6: right therefore, then they're still under the court to jurisdiction.

2708
02:27:40,640 --> 02:27:43,800
Speaker 5: So that that's how in this case this is happening. Yep.

2709
02:27:44,520 --> 02:27:47,320
Speaker 6: It could also make the ICC's life very difficult in

2710
02:27:47,400 --> 02:27:50,520
Speaker 6: terms of using technology, right that the tech back end

2711
02:27:50,560 --> 02:27:53,920
Speaker 6: of everything that ICC does. Try to remove that from

2712
02:27:54,000 --> 02:27:56,240
Speaker 6: any United States involvement would be very hard.

2713
02:27:57,400 --> 02:27:59,560
Speaker 7: Well, let's go on a quick out of break in

2714
02:27:59,680 --> 02:28:02,560
Speaker 7: return to talk about I don't know, the treasury or something.

2715
02:28:02,680 --> 02:28:04,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's talk about the treasury.

2716
02:28:04,360 --> 02:28:19,039
Speaker 11: All right, all right, we are back.

2717
02:28:19,600 --> 02:28:21,959
Speaker 7: But before we talk about the Treasury, I first wanted

2718
02:28:22,000 --> 02:28:24,920
Speaker 7: to do some breaking news while kind of breaking. So

2719
02:28:25,720 --> 02:28:27,760
Speaker 7: when I was flying to New Orleans, I was able

2720
02:28:27,800 --> 02:28:31,000
Speaker 7: to fly past the brand new Gulf of America. It

2721
02:28:31,040 --> 02:28:34,160
Speaker 7: was a life changing experience. It really warmed my heart.

2722
02:28:34,560 --> 02:28:39,040
Speaker 7: And then luckily, a few days ago, Georgia Representative Buddy

2723
02:28:39,160 --> 02:28:44,040
Speaker 7: Carter announced legislation to empower Trump to enter into negotiations

2724
02:28:44,080 --> 02:28:49,760
Speaker 7: to quote unquote purchase or otherwise acquire Greenland and importantly

2725
02:28:50,000 --> 02:28:54,160
Speaker 7: to rename it Red, White, and Blue. Lind God, let's

2726
02:28:54,160 --> 02:28:56,080
Speaker 7: get some quick reactions from the panel.

2727
02:28:56,240 --> 02:28:59,200
Speaker 6: Sorry, as a person born in Europe, the idea of

2728
02:28:59,320 --> 02:29:02,880
Speaker 6: Buddy Carr authorizing the formation of Red, White and Blue Land,

2729
02:29:02,879 --> 02:29:05,400
Speaker 6: it's simply just like the fact that this is not

2730
02:29:05,440 --> 02:29:07,240
Speaker 6: a parody. It's just fucking too much for me.

2731
02:29:07,320 --> 02:29:11,560
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, I mean, well, what it is is purposefully ridiculous.

2732
02:29:11,680 --> 02:29:13,920
Speaker 2: It's a it's a flex, it's a statement of the

2733
02:29:13,959 --> 02:29:16,680
Speaker 2: power that they have over their own party and the country.

2734
02:29:16,720 --> 02:29:20,560
Speaker 2: It is purposefully absurd and everyone is going to go

2735
02:29:20,640 --> 02:29:24,200
Speaker 2: along with it because the Chief the King supports it, right,

2736
02:29:24,600 --> 02:29:26,160
Speaker 2: Like that's the point in my opinion.

2737
02:29:26,240 --> 02:29:29,839
Speaker 5: Yeah, see empress new clothes of evading places.

2738
02:29:29,440 --> 02:29:32,240
Speaker 2: Like, it doesn't matter. We can be as silly as

2739
02:29:32,280 --> 02:29:32,640
Speaker 2: we want.

2740
02:29:32,959 --> 02:29:35,640
Speaker 5: Genuinely interested in hearing from people in Greenland.

2741
02:29:35,760 --> 02:29:38,520
Speaker 7: Yes, honestly, I'm kind of surprised because I would I

2742
02:29:38,520 --> 02:29:40,880
Speaker 7: would assume it. Maybe maybe this is still in the works.

2743
02:29:41,320 --> 02:29:43,240
Speaker 7: If Elon Musk can find a way to call this

2744
02:29:43,320 --> 02:29:46,039
Speaker 7: thing excellent, is really my concern.

2745
02:29:46,560 --> 02:29:50,240
Speaker 6: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, but now I'm really interested

2746
02:29:50,240 --> 02:29:53,040
Speaker 6: in hearing from Greenland. Is genuinely You can contact us

2747
02:29:53,080 --> 02:29:55,879
Speaker 6: at cool Zone tips at proton dot me, which is

2748
02:29:55,920 --> 02:29:59,599
Speaker 6: an encrypted email address that you can send emails.

2749
02:29:59,240 --> 02:30:02,760
Speaker 3: To Yeah, all right, let's let's let's talk about Trump

2750
02:30:02,760 --> 02:30:06,520
Speaker 3: potentially crashing the entire world economy. He's taking more shots

2751
02:30:06,600 --> 02:30:09,560
Speaker 3: to just literally blow this all up. Yeah, okay, So

2752
02:30:09,640 --> 02:30:14,039
Speaker 3: let's talk about the treasuries thing and him potentially talking

2753
02:30:14,040 --> 02:30:16,520
Speaker 3: about not paying out our fucking treasury bonds. Okay, so

2754
02:30:16,720 --> 02:30:19,960
Speaker 3: many reason quotes from Reuter's so this is Trump. We're

2755
02:30:19,959 --> 02:30:23,200
Speaker 3: even looking at treasuries. Trump said there could be a problem.

2756
02:30:23,200 --> 02:30:25,320
Speaker 3: You've been reading about that with treasuries, and that could

2757
02:30:25,360 --> 02:30:28,760
Speaker 3: be an interesting problem. Now, treasuries again, our course, US

2758
02:30:28,879 --> 02:30:30,960
Speaker 3: treasury bonds. We will get to what those are in

2759
02:30:31,000 --> 02:30:32,400
Speaker 3: a second, but I need to read the rest of

2760
02:30:32,440 --> 02:30:35,440
Speaker 3: this quote. It could be that a lot of those

2761
02:30:35,480 --> 02:30:38,480
Speaker 3: things don't count. In other words, that some of the

2762
02:30:38,480 --> 02:30:41,520
Speaker 3: stuff that we're finding is very fraudulent. Therefore, maybe we

2763
02:30:41,560 --> 02:30:45,800
Speaker 3: have less debt than we thought. Now that's a very

2764
02:30:45,840 --> 02:30:46,800
Speaker 3: scary thing to say.

2765
02:30:47,160 --> 02:30:52,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, Treasury bills are the primary underpinning of like economic

2766
02:30:52,400 --> 02:30:57,440
Speaker 2: stability in this country. T bells are what large corporate

2767
02:30:57,440 --> 02:30:59,640
Speaker 2: institutions when they have a lot of cash. But like

2768
02:30:59,879 --> 02:31:02,760
Speaker 2: very wealthy people, it's where you park your money, and

2769
02:31:02,800 --> 02:31:06,240
Speaker 2: it's where foreign governments park a lot of their money, Like, yeah,

2770
02:31:06,280 --> 02:31:08,280
Speaker 2: and it's how our government gets a lot of its

2771
02:31:08,320 --> 02:31:12,840
Speaker 2: money because it's a good, reliable investment. So saying maybe

2772
02:31:12,879 --> 02:31:15,560
Speaker 2: we're going to declare some of these T bill investments

2773
02:31:15,600 --> 02:31:18,280
Speaker 2: bullshit is very dangerous.

2774
02:31:19,680 --> 02:31:21,360
Speaker 5: Yeah, for the global economy.

2775
02:31:21,600 --> 02:31:25,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I want to read this next line because

2776
02:31:25,560 --> 02:31:27,640
Speaker 3: one of the things that's happening here, right is that

2777
02:31:28,560 --> 02:31:31,280
Speaker 3: people just simply and this has been a real problem

2778
02:31:31,320 --> 02:31:34,440
Speaker 3: for this entire administrations, people simply do not believe that

2779
02:31:34,560 --> 02:31:36,680
Speaker 3: he means to do the thing he says he's going

2780
02:31:36,720 --> 02:31:36,920
Speaker 3: to do.

2781
02:31:37,080 --> 02:31:37,240
Speaker 5: Right.

2782
02:31:37,480 --> 02:31:41,279
Speaker 3: Quote is this from Broiders. Again, it could be treasury payments,

2783
02:31:41,440 --> 02:31:44,720
Speaker 3: which is not linked the treasury bonds, said for shop Behani,

2784
02:31:44,879 --> 02:31:49,080
Speaker 3: investment chief for Asia at BNP Power Boss Wealth Management,

2785
02:31:49,600 --> 02:31:51,800
Speaker 3: I would be very surprised if they ever stopped a

2786
02:31:51,800 --> 02:31:53,879
Speaker 3: payment of treasury bonds to a holder. It would be

2787
02:31:53,959 --> 02:31:55,440
Speaker 3: like shooting yourself in the foot.

2788
02:31:55,480 --> 02:31:55,879
Speaker 5: He said.

2789
02:31:56,480 --> 02:32:00,720
Speaker 3: Now, this is something where these these institutional investors like

2790
02:32:01,160 --> 02:32:04,000
Speaker 3: they still have not quite wrapped their head around the

2791
02:32:04,040 --> 02:32:06,320
Speaker 3: fact that no, he really will do this shit because

2792
02:32:06,320 --> 02:32:09,959
Speaker 3: he doesn't understand at all. He thinks that American debt

2793
02:32:10,040 --> 02:32:13,000
Speaker 3: works the same way as like his own personal debt,

2794
02:32:13,240 --> 02:32:15,720
Speaker 3: and no it doesn't. I mean, it's it's worth saying something. So,

2795
02:32:15,760 --> 02:32:19,120
Speaker 3: I mean, just a very very basic shit about how

2796
02:32:19,320 --> 02:32:23,080
Speaker 3: national debt works. Right, Like all of our money, literally

2797
02:32:23,120 --> 02:32:25,320
Speaker 3: every single dollar that is in circulation, every dollar that

2798
02:32:25,400 --> 02:32:28,080
Speaker 3: is in a bank account, that is literally government debt,

2799
02:32:28,520 --> 02:32:32,640
Speaker 3: right like that that's what money is, right, And these

2800
02:32:32,680 --> 02:32:35,800
Speaker 3: treasury bonds are as you were talking about earlier, Right,

2801
02:32:35,879 --> 02:32:41,680
Speaker 3: this is like the investment asset for literally the entire world.

2802
02:32:41,920 --> 02:32:44,280
Speaker 3: And there's trillions of dollars of these. Actually Japan is

2803
02:32:44,320 --> 02:32:47,840
Speaker 3: the largest holder of treasury bonds. China's sort of been

2804
02:32:47,879 --> 02:32:50,120
Speaker 3: selling some of theirs, but they have a lot of them.

2805
02:32:50,360 --> 02:32:51,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, probably good to be doing that.

2806
02:32:52,600 --> 02:32:52,840
Speaker 11: Yeah.

2807
02:32:52,840 --> 02:32:55,800
Speaker 3: And it's also you know, like the fact that he's

2808
02:32:56,160 --> 02:32:58,000
Speaker 3: saying he's not gonna pay these yet, Like this can

2809
02:32:58,040 --> 02:33:01,560
Speaker 3: start a massive crisis in which I've been talking for

2810
02:33:01,600 --> 02:33:03,280
Speaker 3: a bit about. You know, every day we sort of

2811
02:33:03,280 --> 02:33:06,400
Speaker 3: get closer to credit rating agencies like downgrading the quality

2812
02:33:06,440 --> 02:33:08,400
Speaker 3: of US debt, which is a real problem for us

2813
02:33:08,480 --> 02:33:11,800
Speaker 3: trying to like get money from people. And and you know,

2814
02:33:11,920 --> 02:33:13,600
Speaker 3: even if you listen to what that what the sort

2815
02:33:13,640 --> 02:33:15,920
Speaker 3: of bond analyst is saying, right, he's like well, it's fine,

2816
02:33:15,959 --> 02:33:19,600
Speaker 3: they'll just stop paying like US debt to other things,

2817
02:33:19,640 --> 02:33:23,440
Speaker 3: which is like unbelievably unhinged. Would also in and of itself,

2818
02:33:23,480 --> 02:33:25,160
Speaker 3: like like destroying the full faith and credit of the

2819
02:33:25,280 --> 02:33:28,600
Speaker 3: United States would absolutely just fucking annihilate the world economy.

2820
02:33:29,280 --> 02:33:32,520
Speaker 3: And it's also another example of Trump not understanding how

2821
02:33:32,600 --> 02:33:35,840
Speaker 3: the empire he's inherited works, because like, the one of

2822
02:33:35,879 --> 02:33:38,120
Speaker 3: the ways the US funds is government is by getting

2823
02:33:38,120 --> 02:33:41,360
Speaker 3: its client states to buy like trillions of dollars of assets.

2824
02:33:41,360 --> 02:33:44,120
Speaker 3: Like that's partially why feelie. Look at who who buys

2825
02:33:44,200 --> 02:33:47,000
Speaker 3: US assets, Like it's China and US tributary states like

2826
02:33:47,080 --> 02:33:50,800
Speaker 3: Japan for example, which is just purely in American military protectorate. Right,

2827
02:33:50,840 --> 02:33:53,400
Speaker 3: it's a sort of incredible system for the US. Right,

2828
02:33:53,440 --> 02:33:56,039
Speaker 3: you get a bunch of people and you, you know,

2829
02:33:56,040 --> 02:33:57,960
Speaker 3: you just you just sort of perpetually keep borrowing money

2830
02:33:58,000 --> 02:33:59,960
Speaker 3: from them, And it's this thing where they don't understand

2831
02:34:00,000 --> 02:34:03,480
Speaker 3: and who actually holds the power in the relationship, which

2832
02:34:03,520 --> 02:34:05,520
Speaker 3: is that the US having all this, is the one

2833
02:34:05,520 --> 02:34:07,240
Speaker 3: with the power and is the one that's getting everyone

2834
02:34:07,240 --> 02:34:11,119
Speaker 3: else's money for this sort of secure asset. So you know,

2835
02:34:11,560 --> 02:34:13,720
Speaker 3: who knows what's going to happen with this. If this

2836
02:34:13,760 --> 02:34:16,600
Speaker 3: actually starts happening, like, yeah, this is the world rending

2837
02:34:16,720 --> 02:34:20,840
Speaker 3: economic crisis levels of stuff. Well, we'll see if he

2838
02:34:20,879 --> 02:34:23,240
Speaker 3: moves on it, he may simply forget about it, or

2839
02:34:23,320 --> 02:34:26,120
Speaker 3: we're going to wake up one day and like the

2840
02:34:26,240 --> 02:34:29,720
Speaker 3: US's credit's going to be downgraded to like junk bond status,

2841
02:34:29,800 --> 02:34:33,120
Speaker 3: and yeah, everything's going to be chaos. So, speaking of

2842
02:34:33,600 --> 02:34:37,000
Speaker 3: Trump trying to sort of like take shots at pillars

2843
02:34:37,000 --> 02:34:40,480
Speaker 3: of the global economy, starting in March, he's trying to

2844
02:34:40,520 --> 02:34:43,680
Speaker 3: implement a twenty five percent tariff on all imported steel

2845
02:34:43,680 --> 02:34:46,440
Speaker 3: and aluminum. Most of that's actually from Canada and Mexico.

2846
02:34:46,840 --> 02:34:49,200
Speaker 3: I think in their minds is the thing about Chinese steel,

2847
02:34:49,480 --> 02:34:54,600
Speaker 3: but it's mostly from Canada and Mexico. This is also

2848
02:34:54,920 --> 02:34:57,840
Speaker 3: a fucking shit show because the US manufacturing capacity that

2849
02:34:57,840 --> 02:34:59,160
Speaker 3: we still have and we still actually do have a

2850
02:34:59,200 --> 02:35:02,960
Speaker 3: decent amount of like very high tech manufacturing capacity, right

2851
02:35:03,520 --> 02:35:06,320
Speaker 3: relies on this stuff, and this is going to make

2852
02:35:06,360 --> 02:35:09,920
Speaker 3: it more expensive, gets bad. It will do nothing to

2853
02:35:10,000 --> 02:35:13,119
Speaker 3: deal with the fact that US doesn't produce steel anymore,

2854
02:35:13,160 --> 02:35:15,800
Speaker 3: which is the product of that. One day, I'll do

2855
02:35:15,879 --> 02:35:18,840
Speaker 3: my structural Chinese steel over capacity episode. But you know,

2856
02:35:18,920 --> 02:35:21,920
Speaker 3: it's the product of like half a century of the

2857
02:35:21,920 --> 02:35:25,520
Speaker 3: global manufacturing economy, you know, becoming zero sum and they're

2858
02:35:25,520 --> 02:35:28,720
Speaker 3: simply not being a large enough consumer market for all

2859
02:35:28,760 --> 02:35:33,039
Speaker 3: of industrial goods, which means the production becomes increasingly you know,

2860
02:35:33,680 --> 02:35:35,800
Speaker 3: it becomes impossible to expand production to one place without

2861
02:35:35,879 --> 02:35:37,760
Speaker 3: you know, getting red production another place. In Trump things

2862
02:35:37,800 --> 02:35:39,840
Speaker 3: you can solve those with tariffs. You can't. Mostly it's

2863
02:35:39,879 --> 02:35:42,520
Speaker 3: just another like throw things at the economy.

2864
02:35:42,520 --> 02:35:42,720
Speaker 10: Shit.

2865
02:35:43,760 --> 02:35:45,959
Speaker 3: Now, you know, Trump is sort of throwing bombs at

2866
02:35:46,000 --> 02:35:48,039
Speaker 3: the economic system. One of the largest ones that he's

2867
02:35:48,080 --> 02:35:54,920
Speaker 3: thrown is he just straight up stole eighty million dollars

2868
02:35:54,959 --> 02:35:57,560
Speaker 3: in FEMA funding that they had already paid out, Like

2869
02:35:57,600 --> 02:36:00,240
Speaker 3: just straight up stole it from like New York City

2870
02:36:00,280 --> 02:36:01,560
Speaker 3: bank account. They like, so we've been paid to the

2871
02:36:01,560 --> 02:36:03,920
Speaker 3: government in New York. Right, this happened earlier today. Right,

2872
02:36:03,959 --> 02:36:06,040
Speaker 3: This is yeah, literally literally, this this is breaking news,

2873
02:36:06,040 --> 02:36:08,120
Speaker 3: breaking news on Wednesday. This is coming out Friday. This

2874
02:36:08,160 --> 02:36:10,640
Speaker 3: episode is being recorded on Wednesday. Everything that you hear,

2875
02:36:10,720 --> 02:36:12,199
Speaker 3: if shit has happened in the US a few days,

2876
02:36:12,400 --> 02:36:13,080
Speaker 3: that's from the future.

2877
02:36:13,120 --> 02:36:13,600
Speaker 1: We didn't know.

2878
02:36:14,040 --> 02:36:17,680
Speaker 3: But yeah, yeah, he literally like they have taken eighty

2879
02:36:17,720 --> 02:36:20,960
Speaker 3: million dollars just from this bank account. They just stole it.

2880
02:36:21,320 --> 02:36:25,600
Speaker 3: The hospital government is just straight up robbing banks.

2881
02:36:25,800 --> 02:36:28,119
Speaker 2: It's okay that came out today and said that don't

2882
02:36:28,160 --> 02:36:30,840
Speaker 2: worry your bank accounts are still safe, everybody.

2883
02:36:32,000 --> 02:36:35,760
Speaker 7: Yeah, And this is like appropriated funds like for FEMA,

2884
02:36:35,840 --> 02:36:39,600
Speaker 7: being sayly secured in banks that have like literally been

2885
02:36:39,800 --> 02:36:41,720
Speaker 7: still funds so approved.

2886
02:36:41,320 --> 02:36:43,359
Speaker 5: By Congress for a specific purpose.

2887
02:36:43,480 --> 02:36:46,160
Speaker 3: Right, yeah, And what's actually going to happen with this? Right?

2888
02:36:46,240 --> 02:36:49,680
Speaker 3: Because you would expect a even like a normal shitty

2889
02:36:50,440 --> 02:36:53,840
Speaker 3: mayor of New York to like go sicker mode. However,

2890
02:36:54,440 --> 02:36:58,360
Speaker 3: well man, however, comma, here's from Yahoo News quote. Eric

2891
02:36:58,360 --> 02:37:00,640
Speaker 3: Adams has said he will not publicly create size Trump

2892
02:37:00,720 --> 02:37:03,520
Speaker 3: or his administration. Instead, he'll take his concerns to Trump

2893
02:37:03,520 --> 02:37:06,400
Speaker 3: in private. On Monday, Adams convened a meeting with his

2894
02:37:06,440 --> 02:37:08,720
Speaker 3: own top officials to urge them not to speak badly

2895
02:37:08,720 --> 02:37:10,720
Speaker 3: about the President and public, saying if they were to

2896
02:37:10,760 --> 02:37:14,080
Speaker 3: do so, it could risk federal funding. Later that day.

2897
02:37:14,120 --> 02:37:17,920
Speaker 3: That same day, Trump's Justice Department ordered the prosecutors in

2898
02:37:17,959 --> 02:37:20,760
Speaker 3: Adam's criminal case to drop the charges against him, in part,

2899
02:37:20,840 --> 02:37:22,720
Speaker 3: arguing Adams must be free of the burden of his

2900
02:37:22,760 --> 02:37:25,520
Speaker 3: corruption indictment to help carry out Trump's immigration agenda in

2901
02:37:25,560 --> 02:37:25,959
Speaker 3: the city.

2902
02:37:26,200 --> 02:37:26,440
Speaker 5: Great.

2903
02:37:26,800 --> 02:37:29,440
Speaker 7: Cool, This is the most like quid pro quote thing

2904
02:37:29,520 --> 02:37:30,520
Speaker 7: I've ever seen.

2905
02:37:30,840 --> 02:37:33,600
Speaker 2: It is the single most corrupt thing I've seen out

2906
02:37:33,640 --> 02:37:36,920
Speaker 2: of US politics. Yeah, like blatantly, it's staggering.

2907
02:37:37,120 --> 02:37:40,039
Speaker 6: I mean it would come from Trump plus Adams, right, like, yeah,

2908
02:37:40,040 --> 02:37:40,840
Speaker 6: we'll go see it.

2909
02:37:40,879 --> 02:37:43,199
Speaker 5: That's what we're going to say. We've hit a singularity

2910
02:37:43,320 --> 02:37:43,960
Speaker 5: of corruption.

2911
02:37:44,200 --> 02:37:47,119
Speaker 6: Yes, yeah, it's stumbled as always the first stop.

2912
02:37:47,240 --> 02:37:48,960
Speaker 3: Yeah. The only way they can go further than this

2913
02:37:49,120 --> 02:37:51,560
Speaker 3: is that Eric Adams is going to appoint Rob Lagoyevitch's

2914
02:37:51,600 --> 02:37:54,840
Speaker 3: head of like bank robbery or something. One can dream, mia,

2915
02:37:54,959 --> 02:37:55,720
Speaker 3: one can dream.

2916
02:37:55,800 --> 02:37:57,560
Speaker 6: There are a few other ways they can go further

2917
02:37:57,600 --> 02:38:00,800
Speaker 6: with Yo, I'm afraid to inform youmya, but we'll be

2918
02:38:00,800 --> 02:38:02,080
Speaker 6: hoping those don't happen.

2919
02:38:01,840 --> 02:38:04,039
Speaker 3: Well on the corruption index, on the corruption index.

2920
02:38:04,200 --> 02:38:19,840
Speaker 7: Okay, speaking of corruption, let's pivot to ads. All right,

2921
02:38:20,120 --> 02:38:22,680
Speaker 7: we are back, and I'm going to close by talking

2922
02:38:22,760 --> 02:38:26,439
Speaker 7: about the war on Woke, my new favorite news beat.

2923
02:38:26,760 --> 02:38:29,360
Speaker 3: That I'm forced to addention to every week.

2924
02:38:31,240 --> 02:38:34,400
Speaker 7: There was a transports band that that that Trump did

2925
02:38:34,400 --> 02:38:36,920
Speaker 7: an executive order about using a whole bitch of children

2926
02:38:37,000 --> 02:38:40,640
Speaker 7: as a prop, very clearly trying to steal steal the

2927
02:38:40,800 --> 02:38:44,800
Speaker 7: charisma from whatever that governor who lost the election did

2928
02:38:44,920 --> 02:38:48,800
Speaker 7: with his free school lunch there anyway. Instead now it's

2929
02:38:48,879 --> 02:38:51,120
Speaker 7: you just you know, hurt other children in the school

2930
02:38:51,160 --> 02:38:53,640
Speaker 7: by not making them be allowed to play sports. So

2931
02:38:53,920 --> 02:38:57,200
Speaker 7: that happened, and then a few other things have happened

2932
02:38:57,200 --> 02:38:58,680
Speaker 7: the past few weeks, and I'm kind of just like

2933
02:38:58,760 --> 02:39:01,200
Speaker 7: catching up on because I been really focused on, like

2934
02:39:01,280 --> 02:39:03,920
Speaker 7: reporting on like Muscus specifically, and there's been a lot

2935
02:39:03,959 --> 02:39:06,160
Speaker 7: of other stuff the past few weeks, So I'm going

2936
02:39:06,200 --> 02:39:09,359
Speaker 7: to kind of get to that now. The State Department's

2937
02:39:09,440 --> 02:39:15,360
Speaker 7: travel website changed the acronym LGBT to LGB on a

2938
02:39:15,400 --> 02:39:18,240
Speaker 7: web page like warning about like how dangerous it might

2939
02:39:18,320 --> 02:39:21,760
Speaker 7: be to like travel to like other countries with like

2940
02:39:21,879 --> 02:39:28,040
Speaker 7: worse legal protections, say LGB travelers can face special challenges abroad.

2941
02:39:28,240 --> 02:39:31,400
Speaker 7: Laws and attitudes in some countries may affect safety and

2942
02:39:31,600 --> 02:39:34,520
Speaker 7: ease of travel. Many countries do not recognize the same

2943
02:39:34,560 --> 02:39:37,800
Speaker 7: sex marriage. Many countries don't recognize the ex gender marker

2944
02:39:37,879 --> 02:39:41,959
Speaker 7: in passports and do not have it systems at ports

2945
02:39:42,000 --> 02:39:44,760
Speaker 7: of entry that can accept sex markers other than female

2946
02:39:44,760 --> 02:39:45,160
Speaker 7: and male.

2947
02:39:45,280 --> 02:39:48,119
Speaker 6: So they've only changed the title pot. Yeah, they haven't

2948
02:39:48,160 --> 02:39:49,520
Speaker 6: even bothered to edit the text.

2949
02:39:49,920 --> 02:39:53,240
Speaker 7: No, because because they also have another info page where

2950
02:39:53,240 --> 02:39:58,120
Speaker 7: they have just like control ft LGBT two LGB as well.

2951
02:39:58,480 --> 02:40:00,880
Speaker 7: So this is this is like one of like many

2952
02:40:01,040 --> 02:40:04,359
Speaker 7: changes we're seeing across a whole bunch of federal websites

2953
02:40:04,640 --> 02:40:07,240
Speaker 7: in relation to Trump's order to like remove wokeness and

2954
02:40:07,280 --> 02:40:12,400
Speaker 7: gender ideology. Previously, the CDC removed like HIV and trans

2955
02:40:12,480 --> 02:40:16,000
Speaker 7: related like health info pages from their website, and as

2956
02:40:16,040 --> 02:40:19,320
Speaker 7: of yesterday, February eleventh, the web pages for the FDA,

2957
02:40:19,640 --> 02:40:24,080
Speaker 7: Health and Human Services and the CDC were allegedly brought

2958
02:40:24,120 --> 02:40:29,000
Speaker 7: back online, restoring their January thirtieth status. They did this

2959
02:40:29,160 --> 02:40:32,760
Speaker 7: like right before a court mandated deadline to restore these pages,

2960
02:40:32,840 --> 02:40:35,160
Speaker 7: so like I can I can now go back on

2961
02:40:35,200 --> 02:40:35,560
Speaker 7: to the.

2962
02:40:35,440 --> 02:40:37,119
Speaker 11: CDC's HIV page.

2963
02:40:37,640 --> 02:40:40,560
Speaker 7: Verge was first reported on this, and they said that,

2964
02:40:40,600 --> 02:40:43,160
Speaker 7: you know, they've been unable to verify that all of

2965
02:40:43,200 --> 02:40:45,760
Speaker 7: the pages have been restored exactly to how they were before.

2966
02:40:46,040 --> 02:40:47,640
Speaker 7: This is something that we're still working on because it's

2967
02:40:47,640 --> 02:40:51,000
Speaker 7: literally happened, like you know yesterday. This is this is

2968
02:40:51,040 --> 02:40:53,880
Speaker 7: like a small, a small part of their of their

2969
02:40:53,920 --> 02:40:57,560
Speaker 7: current war on wokeness. Another aspect of this is there's

2970
02:40:57,600 --> 02:41:00,200
Speaker 7: been a whole bunch of orders from federal agencies to

2971
02:41:00,360 --> 02:41:07,280
Speaker 7: ban specific woke keywords across their databases, their websites, training information,

2972
02:41:07,920 --> 02:41:11,280
Speaker 7: including from agencies like Noah. So just like the weather

2973
02:41:11,360 --> 02:41:16,000
Speaker 7: and the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, they released a

2974
02:41:16,080 --> 02:41:19,920
Speaker 7: memo of banning specific words across the agency, including words

2975
02:41:19,959 --> 02:41:26,840
Speaker 7: like ability, acceptance, access, affirmation, aggression, ally shift, androgyne a,

2976
02:41:26,920 --> 02:41:42,359
Speaker 7: sexual belonging, bias, binary, bisexual, black culture, DEI, discrimination, diversity, empathy, empowerment, equity, ethnicity, fairness, gay, gender, genitisphia, handicap, homosexual, LGBTQ, intersex,

2977
02:41:42,440 --> 02:41:46,800
Speaker 7: pan sexual, queer, transgender, transvestite, as well as words like

2978
02:41:46,879 --> 02:41:54,480
Speaker 7: impartial inclusion, indigenous, intersectionality, justice, The word white has been banned,

2979
02:41:55,120 --> 02:42:00,000
Speaker 7: They space social justice, underserved communities, race, privilege, powerdynamics, the data,

2980
02:42:00,080 --> 02:42:03,879
Speaker 7: American multiculturalism. So just all of these Like again, this

2981
02:42:03,959 --> 02:42:07,039
Speaker 7: is like the Party of Free Speech has banned all

2982
02:42:07,120 --> 02:42:10,200
Speaker 7: of these words, and it's not it's it's it's it's

2983
02:42:10,240 --> 02:42:14,200
Speaker 7: not just Noah. Also, the National Science Foundation has has

2984
02:42:14,240 --> 02:42:17,000
Speaker 7: released my most saying that they cannot have these words

2985
02:42:17,000 --> 02:42:19,480
Speaker 7: included in their documents because it could cause them to

2986
02:42:19,560 --> 02:42:20,600
Speaker 7: lose grant funding.

2987
02:42:20,680 --> 02:42:23,080
Speaker 6: Well, it's the end for race science. Then they can't

2988
02:42:23,120 --> 02:42:24,360
Speaker 6: do race science anymore.

2989
02:42:24,520 --> 02:42:27,240
Speaker 7: There's a lot of similar words flagged in the National

2990
02:42:27,240 --> 02:42:30,920
Speaker 7: Science Foundation list of banned words, like activism, activists, advocacy,

2991
02:42:31,480 --> 02:42:38,400
Speaker 7: a barrier, a bias, black LATINX community, uh diversity, equity,

2992
02:42:38,760 --> 02:42:44,000
Speaker 7: cultural differences, cultural heritage, culturally responsive, diverse, you know, diverse,

2993
02:42:44,000 --> 02:42:53,720
Speaker 7: community divice groups, diversified, diversifying, all this kind of stuff, ethnicity, equality, inclusion, inequality, LGBT,

2994
02:42:54,000 --> 02:43:05,480
Speaker 7: institutional marginalize, trauma, underappreciated, stereotype type, systemic underrepresentation, undervalued victim.

2995
02:43:06,320 --> 02:43:09,560
Speaker 2: I love that you can no longer do scientific papers

2996
02:43:09,600 --> 02:43:15,720
Speaker 2: about systemic infections. Yeah, organs, Like yeah, no, there's anything.

2997
02:43:15,400 --> 02:43:17,760
Speaker 5: That has a barrier, Yeah, exactly.

2998
02:43:17,879 --> 02:43:19,920
Speaker 7: There's so many words that are just like used in

2999
02:43:20,000 --> 02:43:23,800
Speaker 7: like how like studies function that they cannot use because

3000
02:43:23,840 --> 02:43:25,840
Speaker 7: the word is too woke, and then they're gonna lose

3001
02:43:25,879 --> 02:43:28,400
Speaker 7: their funding. Like yeah, you can't, like you can't like

3002
02:43:28,440 --> 02:43:31,320
Speaker 7: look at like things being equal. You can't look at

3003
02:43:31,360 --> 02:43:34,800
Speaker 7: any kind of like scientific bias, Like you can't like

3004
02:43:35,760 --> 02:43:38,160
Speaker 7: this very basic stuff. It may just result in like

3005
02:43:38,200 --> 02:43:41,360
Speaker 7: the tiktokification of this, like trying to spell these words

3006
02:43:41,400 --> 02:43:42,760
Speaker 7: with like a different letter.

3007
02:43:42,720 --> 02:43:44,200
Speaker 5: Talking about cute little boots.

3008
02:43:44,200 --> 02:43:47,320
Speaker 7: So what it is, and like I'm laughing because it's

3009
02:43:47,360 --> 02:43:49,280
Speaker 7: all like absurd and it's kind of like kind of

3010
02:43:49,320 --> 02:43:51,200
Speaker 7: like a coping mechanism, but like this is all like

3011
02:43:51,520 --> 02:43:52,120
Speaker 7: very bad.

3012
02:43:52,520 --> 02:43:54,280
Speaker 3: Well, but like this some thing else, something else we

3013
02:43:54,280 --> 02:43:55,720
Speaker 3: need to talk about you, which is like like you

3014
02:43:55,720 --> 02:43:59,039
Speaker 3: are required by law as part of your grand proposal

3015
02:43:59,160 --> 02:44:01,960
Speaker 3: like have things that talk about like how this is

3016
02:44:01,959 --> 02:44:04,240
Speaker 3: going to affect different communities, et cetera, et cetera. Is

3017
02:44:04,280 --> 02:44:06,080
Speaker 3: a legal requirement for you to put that in your thing.

3018
02:44:06,160 --> 02:44:08,800
Speaker 3: So like if you were to like strictly enforce this,

3019
02:44:08,800 --> 02:44:12,040
Speaker 3: this kills every fucking grant. And this is this is

3020
02:44:12,040 --> 02:44:14,280
Speaker 3: one of these things where it's like you're literally just

3021
02:44:14,360 --> 02:44:17,480
Speaker 3: running straight into the federal law tells you you must

3022
02:44:17,480 --> 02:44:19,720
Speaker 3: do this thing, and the Trow Administration says these words

3023
02:44:19,720 --> 02:44:22,119
Speaker 3: are banned, and so like yeah, who knows, it's a

3024
02:44:22,280 --> 02:44:23,439
Speaker 3: really weird situation.

3025
02:44:23,879 --> 02:44:27,080
Speaker 6: Yeah, you can't do IRB right now. Like most guards

3026
02:44:27,120 --> 02:44:29,560
Speaker 6: will go through an institutional review board that will determine

3027
02:44:29,680 --> 02:44:34,000
Speaker 6: like if there are human subjects, they're like there ethical

3028
02:44:34,240 --> 02:44:37,240
Speaker 6: boundaries and like what you're doing is okay. I can't

3029
02:44:37,280 --> 02:44:39,560
Speaker 6: see it being possible to do an IRB and not

3030
02:44:39,800 --> 02:44:40,840
Speaker 6: say these words.

3031
02:44:41,240 --> 02:44:43,840
Speaker 7: Yeah no, and like we have to do scientific studies

3032
02:44:43,840 --> 02:44:48,280
Speaker 7: on like how how very disabilities affect people's lives, like

3033
02:44:48,520 --> 02:44:51,560
Speaker 7: very basic stuff like this, all of these types of things.

3034
02:44:51,920 --> 02:44:54,600
Speaker 7: It's really bad and these things like are going into effect.

3035
02:44:54,640 --> 02:44:57,280
Speaker 7: I know, like this is this stuff is still happening.

3036
02:44:57,680 --> 02:45:01,320
Speaker 7: Columnists to doctor Lucky Tran report quote, the CDC has

3037
02:45:01,360 --> 02:45:04,680
Speaker 7: instructed its scientists to retract or pause the publication of

3038
02:45:04,720 --> 02:45:08,279
Speaker 7: any research manuscript being considered by any medical or scientific journal.

3039
02:45:08,440 --> 02:45:11,240
Speaker 7: The move aims to ensure that quote unquote, no forbidden

3040
02:45:11,400 --> 02:45:16,720
Speaker 7: terms appear in the work band terms must be scrubbed. Great,

3041
02:45:17,120 --> 02:45:20,720
Speaker 7: it's all really bad, yep. And we're seeing this this

3042
02:45:20,800 --> 02:45:24,879
Speaker 7: sort of like lists being formed increasingly, including this DEI

3043
02:45:25,080 --> 02:45:29,440
Speaker 7: watch list put together by a conservative oppositional research group

3044
02:45:29,520 --> 02:45:34,600
Speaker 7: called the American Accountability Foundation CHRIST who released a DEI

3045
02:45:34,640 --> 02:45:37,520
Speaker 7: watch list, which publishes the names, photos, occupation, and personal

3046
02:45:37,560 --> 02:45:41,080
Speaker 7: information of mostly black employees who work under the Department

3047
02:45:41,120 --> 02:45:44,039
Speaker 7: of Health and Human Services When the website was first discovered,

3048
02:45:44,080 --> 02:45:48,119
Speaker 7: the employee profiles were labeled under targets. This has since

3049
02:45:48,160 --> 02:45:53,480
Speaker 7: been changed to dossiers like very very frightening, like very

3050
02:45:53,520 --> 02:45:57,120
Speaker 7: bad stuff, like very obvious intimidation for each target. The

3051
02:45:57,160 --> 02:46:01,360
Speaker 7: website lists a collection of alleged DEI offense, which includes

3052
02:46:01,480 --> 02:46:05,000
Speaker 7: donations to Democrats and social media posts having pronouns in

3053
02:46:05,040 --> 02:46:08,760
Speaker 7: their bio or previous work on since deleted diversity, equity

3054
02:46:08,800 --> 02:46:13,039
Speaker 7: and inclusion initiatives. Columnist Jamal Bowie says, quote, they are

3055
02:46:13,040 --> 02:46:16,360
Speaker 7: mostly targeting black employees. So this is quite literally just

3056
02:46:16,440 --> 02:46:20,119
Speaker 7: a repeat of Rigrow Wilson's segregationist purge of the federal government.

3057
02:46:20,520 --> 02:46:23,039
Speaker 7: And like, yes, like all of this, all of this

3058
02:46:23,160 --> 02:46:26,640
Speaker 7: like push against quote unquote DEEI is like very clearly

3059
02:46:26,680 --> 02:46:29,440
Speaker 7: just like white supremacists segregation in action. Like this is

3060
02:46:29,520 --> 02:46:32,280
Speaker 7: the whole point is that if any employee is a

3061
02:46:32,280 --> 02:46:34,560
Speaker 7: person of color, that means that they that they must

3062
02:46:34,600 --> 02:46:37,880
Speaker 7: be unqualified because they were hired only due to DEI

3063
02:46:38,640 --> 02:46:41,720
Speaker 7: and to avoid doing that, you could only hire white people.

3064
02:46:42,080 --> 02:46:45,840
Speaker 7: And Trump's Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy sent out a memo

3065
02:46:45,920 --> 02:46:48,800
Speaker 7: directing staff on where to direct like grant funds and

3066
02:46:48,840 --> 02:46:52,080
Speaker 7: he said, quote give preference to communities with marriage and

3067
02:46:52,200 --> 02:46:55,640
Speaker 7: birth rates higher than the national average unquote, which is

3068
02:46:55,680 --> 02:46:58,320
Speaker 7: a very clear dog whistle to just like only hire

3069
02:46:58,400 --> 02:47:02,440
Speaker 7: like white Christians are Christians with big families, you know,

3070
02:47:02,600 --> 02:47:06,320
Speaker 7: parenthesis like white people. This is like very very obviously

3071
02:47:06,440 --> 02:47:07,080
Speaker 7: what they're doing.

3072
02:47:07,680 --> 02:47:09,959
Speaker 2: Yeah, and they're I mean, this is extending to the

3073
02:47:10,000 --> 02:47:13,600
Speaker 2: military now under Hegseth. West Point has just announced effectively

3074
02:47:13,600 --> 02:47:16,160
Speaker 2: the banning of a number of clubs, including the Society

3075
02:47:16,160 --> 02:47:19,080
Speaker 2: of Black Engineers, which is like three quarters of a

3076
02:47:19,120 --> 02:47:22,840
Speaker 2: century old something like that. Also ending programs that are

3077
02:47:22,840 --> 02:47:27,160
Speaker 2: focused on like recruiting into the military black soldiers but

3078
02:47:27,360 --> 02:47:31,480
Speaker 2: have like pivoted to recruiting from NRA gatherings, even though

3079
02:47:31,480 --> 02:47:34,240
Speaker 2: there's internal agreement that that brings in a lower quality

3080
02:47:34,360 --> 02:47:34,800
Speaker 2: type of.

3081
02:47:35,720 --> 02:47:38,359
Speaker 5: Say I've seen Sementara members.

3082
02:47:38,520 --> 02:47:41,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I've seen a few NRA members, right, and

3083
02:47:41,120 --> 02:47:44,000
Speaker 2: I yeah. And it's just one of these things, like

3084
02:47:44,320 --> 02:47:46,720
Speaker 2: there's a very good book that I think people need

3085
02:47:46,760 --> 02:47:48,880
Speaker 2: to read if you want to know kind of the

3086
02:47:48,920 --> 02:47:51,280
Speaker 2: operational impact this is going to have, both on the

3087
02:47:51,360 --> 02:47:53,879
Speaker 2: US military and probably to an extent, law enforcement. We

3088
02:47:53,920 --> 02:47:56,080
Speaker 2: look at agencies like the FBI, there's a book called

3089
02:47:56,080 --> 02:48:00,640
Speaker 2: The Dictator's Army that heavily focuses on how changes like

3090
02:48:00,680 --> 02:48:04,280
Speaker 2: this impact operational efficiency, and the gist of it is

3091
02:48:04,320 --> 02:48:07,959
Speaker 2: that the goal, and clearly what Hegseth's job is, is

3092
02:48:08,000 --> 02:48:12,280
Speaker 2: to make the military into something that can't pose opposition

3093
02:48:12,480 --> 02:48:15,360
Speaker 2: to the new regime. Right, that's the goal here, because

3094
02:48:15,400 --> 02:48:18,200
Speaker 2: there's a very realistic understanding that the military was one

3095
02:48:18,240 --> 02:48:21,560
Speaker 2: of things that stopped him from maintaining power in twenty twenty, right,

3096
02:48:22,000 --> 02:48:25,080
Speaker 2: both because the military was not willing to be used

3097
02:48:25,080 --> 02:48:28,960
Speaker 2: to crack down directly on protests and because General Milly

3098
02:48:29,520 --> 02:48:32,400
Speaker 2: acted as a barrier to Trump's attempt to do a

3099
02:48:32,480 --> 02:48:33,480
Speaker 2: coup the last time.

3100
02:48:33,600 --> 02:48:33,800
Speaker 5: Right.

3101
02:48:34,400 --> 02:48:37,720
Speaker 2: So you have an understanding which is very common when

3102
02:48:37,879 --> 02:48:41,240
Speaker 2: regimes like this takeover in democratic societies. In the early

3103
02:48:41,320 --> 02:48:44,320
Speaker 2: days of the Third Reich, the military was the primary

3104
02:48:44,360 --> 02:48:48,040
Speaker 2: concern Hitler had because they were not Nazis, right, they

3105
02:48:48,080 --> 02:48:50,160
Speaker 2: were conservative, but they were not in the tank for

3106
02:48:50,200 --> 02:48:52,240
Speaker 2: the Nazi Party, And there was a lot that he

3107
02:48:52,360 --> 02:48:55,320
Speaker 2: wanted to do that the military establishment at the time

3108
02:48:55,360 --> 02:48:57,360
Speaker 2: the Third Rich came to power wouldn't let him do.

3109
02:48:57,440 --> 02:48:59,520
Speaker 2: And that was that was one of the first things.

3110
02:49:00,040 --> 02:49:01,720
Speaker 2: And this this took several years, but that was one

3111
02:49:01,760 --> 02:49:04,640
Speaker 2: of the first goals of the Nazi regime and power

3112
02:49:05,120 --> 02:49:07,880
Speaker 2: was reforming the military as much as possible in their

3113
02:49:07,920 --> 02:49:08,680
Speaker 2: own image.

3114
02:49:08,920 --> 02:49:10,520
Speaker 7: And like so much of like what HEGGS is doing

3115
02:49:10,520 --> 02:49:13,240
Speaker 7: here specifically with like the West Point like club banning,

3116
02:49:13,280 --> 02:49:15,720
Speaker 7: it's like like these things are not like DEI. These

3117
02:49:15,720 --> 02:49:18,760
Speaker 7: things are like very old. These are like pretty like

3118
02:49:18,840 --> 02:49:21,360
Speaker 7: standard standard things that have been like roped into like

3119
02:49:21,400 --> 02:49:24,480
Speaker 7: what it means to like be in America. And we're

3120
02:49:24,480 --> 02:49:28,080
Speaker 7: now just seeing this like crusade against DEI being used

3121
02:49:28,080 --> 02:49:31,600
Speaker 7: to just reverse affirmative action and specifically select for white

3122
02:49:31,640 --> 02:49:34,920
Speaker 7: Christian applicants. Yeah, and like that's the entirety of this

3123
02:49:35,240 --> 02:49:38,359
Speaker 7: point here, Like they're they're using DEI as like as

3124
02:49:38,400 --> 02:49:41,480
Speaker 7: this like magical wand to frame things that are like

3125
02:49:41,720 --> 02:49:45,000
Speaker 7: pretty standard and like accepted parts of like how you

3126
02:49:45,040 --> 02:49:48,320
Speaker 7: do like hiring practices, how you don't do discrimination to

3127
02:49:48,680 --> 02:49:53,360
Speaker 7: just specifically only only like uplift white Christians. And that's

3128
02:49:53,480 --> 02:49:56,320
Speaker 7: part of this like very basic like Christian nationalist project

3129
02:49:56,640 --> 02:49:58,760
Speaker 7: that people like Heritage have been trying to do for

3130
02:49:58,840 --> 02:49:59,640
Speaker 7: a long time.

3131
02:50:00,440 --> 02:50:02,160
Speaker 3: I think it's also worth noting too that like the

3132
02:50:02,200 --> 02:50:04,080
Speaker 3: other thing that this mirrors, you know, and the like.

3133
02:50:04,120 --> 02:50:06,440
Speaker 3: Specifically in the way that this target's queer people is

3134
02:50:07,040 --> 02:50:09,000
Speaker 3: the Lavender Scare, which is a thing from like the

3135
02:50:09,000 --> 02:50:11,240
Speaker 3: sort of late forties through the sixties where the US

3136
02:50:11,320 --> 02:50:14,720
Speaker 3: is part of this like giant anti communist herge. It

3137
02:50:14,840 --> 02:50:18,279
Speaker 3: was on basically went through and found every gay government

3138
02:50:18,280 --> 02:50:21,600
Speaker 3: official and fucking ran them out. That's like another aspect

3139
02:50:21,640 --> 02:50:23,720
Speaker 3: of this whole thing, right, like the way these people

3140
02:50:23,800 --> 02:50:26,600
Speaker 3: understand the world. In order to sort of like purify

3141
02:50:26,879 --> 02:50:28,879
Speaker 3: their like white state, right like, you have to ord

3142
02:50:28,920 --> 02:50:30,119
Speaker 3: to the non white people, and you have to get

3143
02:50:30,200 --> 02:50:33,160
Speaker 3: rid of the queers, and you know, and people especially

3144
02:50:33,160 --> 02:50:35,720
Speaker 3: people who are fucking both. And so this is this

3145
02:50:35,760 --> 02:50:41,200
Speaker 3: sort of transformational project of changing this this sort of

3146
02:50:41,240 --> 02:50:44,920
Speaker 3: like just changing the composition of what the US is into,

3147
02:50:45,800 --> 02:50:48,000
Speaker 3: like and how its state functions, and how they can

3148
02:50:48,560 --> 02:50:51,360
Speaker 3: to like what level of violence they can bring about

3149
02:50:51,440 --> 02:50:51,959
Speaker 3: on people.

3150
02:50:53,000 --> 02:50:55,800
Speaker 7: And they've wrote these things together so closely now, like

3151
02:50:56,200 --> 02:51:00,000
Speaker 7: the anti trans like school executive order. Only the first

3152
02:51:00,000 --> 02:51:02,360
Speaker 7: first half the executive order was actually about the gender

3153
02:51:02,480 --> 02:51:06,840
Speaker 7: ideology stuff. The second half was aimed at curbing what

3154
02:51:06,879 --> 02:51:13,280
Speaker 7: they called discriminatory equity ideology d DEI. Basically it was

3155
02:51:13,400 --> 02:51:18,280
Speaker 7: proposing a program for quote unquote patriotic education across the country,

3156
02:51:18,480 --> 02:51:21,480
Speaker 7: basically trying to rewrite history to make like the United

3157
02:51:21,520 --> 02:51:25,480
Speaker 7: States like this, like noble historical project. H It's like

3158
02:51:26,040 --> 02:51:27,720
Speaker 7: stuff that they've tried to do before with that, like

3159
02:51:28,040 --> 02:51:30,120
Speaker 7: with that, like seventeen seventy six project that The New

3160
02:51:30,200 --> 02:51:33,240
Speaker 7: York Times reported on. Part of Trump's order called for

3161
02:51:33,360 --> 02:51:38,000
Speaker 7: quote an accurate, honest, unifying, inspiring, an ennobling characterization of

3162
02:51:38,080 --> 02:51:42,080
Speaker 7: America's founding and foundational principles, a clear examination of how

3163
02:51:42,120 --> 02:51:45,120
Speaker 7: the United States has admirably grown closer to its noble

3164
02:51:45,120 --> 02:51:49,000
Speaker 7: principles throughout history, the concept that commitment to America's aspirations

3165
02:51:49,080 --> 02:51:52,439
Speaker 7: is beneficial and justified, the concept that celebration of America's

3166
02:51:52,440 --> 02:51:55,800
Speaker 7: greatness and history is proper. And then the order goes

3167
02:51:55,840 --> 02:51:58,279
Speaker 7: on to try to ban the concept of white guilt,

3168
02:51:58,840 --> 02:52:01,600
Speaker 7: saying that like, teachers can get in trouble if any

3169
02:52:01,640 --> 02:52:05,680
Speaker 7: of their students feel guilty about things that people of

3170
02:52:05,720 --> 02:52:07,600
Speaker 7: like that same race have done in the past, and

3171
02:52:07,640 --> 02:52:10,400
Speaker 7: like making sure that teachers do not teach things in

3172
02:52:10,440 --> 02:52:13,160
Speaker 7: a way that could possibly make us students feel quote

3173
02:52:13,200 --> 02:52:13,840
Speaker 7: unquote guilt.

3174
02:52:14,840 --> 02:52:18,160
Speaker 6: They use the word children actually not students, which like

3175
02:52:18,320 --> 02:52:20,560
Speaker 6: is fundamentally something we don't do in education.

3176
02:52:20,920 --> 02:52:21,040
Speaker 7: Right.

3177
02:52:21,080 --> 02:52:23,400
Speaker 6: We refer to our students of students because we respect

3178
02:52:23,400 --> 02:52:25,160
Speaker 6: them as people. We don't think of them as like

3179
02:52:25,760 --> 02:52:27,959
Speaker 6: lesser than, especially when we're getting to the points where

3180
02:52:27,959 --> 02:52:30,480
Speaker 6: we're discussing things like race and equity, Like these are

3181
02:52:30,560 --> 02:52:33,760
Speaker 6: high school students, right, maybe we know we certainly do

3182
02:52:33,800 --> 02:52:36,760
Speaker 6: discuss these things in university, and like, it's fundamentally shows

3183
02:52:36,800 --> 02:52:40,120
Speaker 6: a complete lack of understanding of how education works to

3184
02:52:40,160 --> 02:52:41,000
Speaker 6: call them children.

3185
02:52:41,440 --> 02:52:43,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think it gets to what this is

3186
02:52:43,959 --> 02:52:45,960
Speaker 3: actually about when this is something that I would argue

3187
02:52:46,000 --> 02:52:49,119
Speaker 3: both Trump administrations were about, right if you look at

3188
02:52:49,160 --> 02:52:51,920
Speaker 3: when Trump like comes down the fucking elevator for the

3189
02:52:51,959 --> 02:52:55,720
Speaker 3: first time. So I think people may remember, like after

3190
02:52:55,760 --> 02:52:58,080
Speaker 3: Ferguson in twenty fifteen, there was Baltimore where there was

3191
02:52:58,160 --> 02:53:01,320
Speaker 3: you know, huge riots, massive convers with the police, like

3192
02:53:01,440 --> 02:53:04,080
Speaker 3: massive anti racist actions. And that's the that's like the

3193
02:53:04,120 --> 02:53:07,520
Speaker 3: thing that really truly tipped like a bunch of the

3194
02:53:07,520 --> 02:53:10,320
Speaker 3: Republican Party even further right from where they'd been with

3195
02:53:10,320 --> 02:53:12,600
Speaker 3: the Tea Party into into this into sort of trump Ism.

3196
02:53:12,640 --> 02:53:13,840
Speaker 3: It was, you know, it was a reaction to that

3197
02:53:13,879 --> 02:53:16,480
Speaker 3: and then this entire campaign, right, like all of the

3198
02:53:16,480 --> 02:53:18,640
Speaker 3: stuff that he's talking about here, you know, this is

3199
02:53:18,680 --> 02:53:22,000
Speaker 3: about twenty twenty, right, this is about reversing the gains

3200
02:53:22,080 --> 02:53:23,800
Speaker 3: that had beened, you know, and like obviously they were

3201
02:53:23,840 --> 02:53:26,000
Speaker 3: incomplete gains. One of the things that did happen was

3202
02:53:26,040 --> 02:53:29,560
Speaker 3: that a bunch of teachers were trying to change the

3203
02:53:29,600 --> 02:53:31,120
Speaker 3: way the US history is taught to reflect that this

3204
02:53:31,160 --> 02:53:33,879
Speaker 3: country was like again, a settler colonial empire built by

3205
02:53:33,920 --> 02:53:37,080
Speaker 3: slave labor, and you know that that expanded its territory

3206
02:53:37,080 --> 02:53:40,039
Speaker 3: through genocide, which is just this is just objectively true

3207
02:53:40,280 --> 02:53:42,600
Speaker 3: about how the US started. But the thing is, like

3208
02:53:42,640 --> 02:53:46,280
Speaker 3: that's not good for you know, these people's projects, right,

3209
02:53:46,360 --> 02:53:49,320
Speaker 3: Like saying that out loud is a fucking issue for them.

3210
02:53:49,400 --> 02:53:51,800
Speaker 3: And so you know, their their attempt to roll back

3211
02:53:51,959 --> 02:53:55,360
Speaker 3: everything that was gained from sort of the Black uprisings

3212
02:53:55,760 --> 02:53:57,600
Speaker 3: is culminating all of this shit with like the purge

3213
02:53:57,640 --> 02:54:00,040
Speaker 3: of black workers for the federal government, with all of

3214
02:54:00,080 --> 02:54:01,920
Speaker 3: these things ordering you and like that's why they're talking

3215
02:54:01,920 --> 02:54:03,720
Speaker 3: about all of these weird all they keep banning all

3216
02:54:03,760 --> 02:54:07,160
Speaker 3: these weird like terms that don't make any sense, Like

3217
02:54:07,160 --> 02:54:08,840
Speaker 3: we were talking about like empathy, right, so like, okay,

3218
02:54:08,840 --> 02:54:10,720
Speaker 3: so why the fuck are they talking about banning empathy? Yeah,

3219
02:54:10,720 --> 02:54:13,879
Speaker 3: because specifically these things come from the purges they've been

3220
02:54:13,879 --> 02:54:15,879
Speaker 3: trying to do in the education system, where they have

3221
02:54:15,879 --> 02:54:19,480
Speaker 3: a bunch of very specific grievances about like kinds of

3222
02:54:19,600 --> 02:54:23,120
Speaker 3: education stuff that teachers the teachers were implementing, particularly in

3223
02:54:23,160 --> 02:54:24,760
Speaker 3: sort of like middle and high schools.

3224
02:54:25,160 --> 02:54:26,840
Speaker 7: Well, I'm going to close here with two pieces of

3225
02:54:26,879 --> 02:54:29,920
Speaker 7: breaking news. One, like, earlier today, we learned that the

3226
02:54:30,040 --> 02:54:35,680
Speaker 7: NAH has finally has finally acknowledged that the grant funding

3227
02:54:35,720 --> 02:54:39,200
Speaker 7: freeze is illegal. And this is probably like due to

3228
02:54:39,280 --> 02:54:42,240
Speaker 7: pressure from like news coverage about all of the temporary

3229
02:54:42,280 --> 02:54:46,520
Speaker 7: restraining order violations through the continued freezing of funds, and

3230
02:54:46,720 --> 02:54:49,080
Speaker 7: now the NH is saying, because of these orders, we

3231
02:54:49,120 --> 02:54:53,360
Speaker 7: will resume funding. The first tro was like two weeks ago,

3232
02:54:54,000 --> 02:54:56,800
Speaker 7: on February first, So it's not like like they just

3233
02:54:56,959 --> 02:54:59,520
Speaker 7: learned about this. It's that they have in some ways

3234
02:54:59,520 --> 02:55:03,360
Speaker 7: like perhaps caved to pressure. Again, like, these executive orders

3235
02:55:03,360 --> 02:55:07,440
Speaker 7: do not enforce themselves, These are enforced by people at agencies.

3236
02:55:08,000 --> 02:55:10,760
Speaker 7: These things do do not do not become automatically enforced.

3237
02:55:10,840 --> 02:55:13,720
Speaker 7: So this is this is like one one step now

3238
02:55:14,080 --> 02:55:16,440
Speaker 7: you can go to a popular dot info who has

3239
02:55:16,480 --> 02:55:20,120
Speaker 7: been breaking the news on this specifically, and then some

3240
02:55:20,120 --> 02:55:23,200
Speaker 7: some breaking news that I have here on drop site

3241
02:55:23,520 --> 02:55:28,119
Speaker 7: quote unquote armored Tesla forecast estimated to win four hundred

3242
02:55:28,320 --> 02:55:31,720
Speaker 7: million dollars of State Department contract funds.

3243
02:55:32,000 --> 02:55:35,480
Speaker 3: What So, this could go one of two ways.

3244
02:55:35,879 --> 02:55:38,240
Speaker 7: This could either go a really funny way, yeah it's

3245
02:55:38,280 --> 02:55:40,400
Speaker 7: kinda sha or it could go a really sad way.

3246
02:55:40,560 --> 02:55:41,080
Speaker 5: Yeah I do.

3247
02:55:41,160 --> 02:55:43,480
Speaker 2: I do like the idea of a lot of Trump

3248
02:55:43,520 --> 02:55:47,600
Speaker 2: appointees being in Tesla's that are armored when the batteries

3249
02:55:47,680 --> 02:55:51,119
Speaker 2: catch and maybe the jaws of life can't cut through those,

3250
02:55:51,280 --> 02:55:53,279
Speaker 2: you know, yep, yep.

3251
02:55:53,400 --> 02:55:55,760
Speaker 6: Yeah it was. This is very funny because Trump went

3252
02:55:55,800 --> 02:55:59,800
Speaker 6: off on a on a cotangent about electric tank horrible idea,

3253
02:56:00,120 --> 02:56:03,400
Speaker 6: paintrat a couple of times, horrible idea. Yeah, Well he's

3254
02:56:03,440 --> 02:56:05,480
Speaker 6: had he's had to come to Jesus moment and he

3255
02:56:05,520 --> 02:56:08,040
Speaker 6: has changed his mind and he wants a more sustainable

3256
02:56:08,200 --> 02:56:10,000
Speaker 6: sure beast as they called it.

3257
02:56:10,080 --> 02:56:12,520
Speaker 2: What everyone always says, the problem with tanks is is

3258
02:56:12,520 --> 02:56:15,440
Speaker 2: that they don't explode enough when hit by munitions or

3259
02:56:15,440 --> 02:56:19,160
Speaker 2: by themselves, when not hit by being by themselves, just because.

3260
02:56:18,840 --> 02:56:20,560
Speaker 5: Batteries do that sometimes.

3261
02:56:20,640 --> 02:56:23,480
Speaker 6: Yes, yeah, you never know what you're going to get.

3262
02:56:23,680 --> 02:56:25,600
Speaker 2: I'm excited. This is going to make everything a lot

3263
02:56:25,640 --> 02:56:29,160
Speaker 2: safer for our our our men and women in Greenland.

3264
02:56:29,320 --> 02:56:29,840
Speaker 2: I'm guessing.

3265
02:56:30,959 --> 02:56:35,120
Speaker 6: Yeah, batteries. Batteries thrive in the cold, red, white and

3266
02:56:35,160 --> 02:56:35,680
Speaker 6: blue lid.

3267
02:56:37,320 --> 02:56:39,600
Speaker 2: Yeah. I do love the new m one a whatever

3268
02:56:39,840 --> 02:56:42,480
Speaker 2: seven abrams that gets four miles on a chart.

3269
02:56:43,320 --> 02:56:45,520
Speaker 5: And then again detonates wait.

3270
02:56:45,400 --> 02:56:48,480
Speaker 6: Six months to use a solar panel to field recharge.

3271
02:56:48,520 --> 02:56:51,000
Speaker 5: At least it doesn't get light for six months.

3272
02:56:51,040 --> 02:56:53,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, magnificent upwards of ten miles a year.

3273
02:56:54,000 --> 02:56:56,280
Speaker 7: Yes, yep, all right, well that is it for us

3274
02:56:56,280 --> 02:56:58,920
Speaker 7: today on it could happen here, James things. Do you

3275
02:56:58,920 --> 02:57:00,840
Speaker 7: want to talk about the tip point again?

3276
02:57:01,480 --> 02:57:01,680
Speaker 5: Yeah?

3277
02:57:01,800 --> 02:57:04,520
Speaker 6: Yeah, So everybody, we have an email where you can

3278
02:57:04,560 --> 02:57:06,320
Speaker 6: reach out to us if you have things that you

3279
02:57:06,400 --> 02:57:08,959
Speaker 6: think we should be reporting on. It is a proton mail.

3280
02:57:09,080 --> 02:57:12,080
Speaker 6: That doesn't mean that it's super secure. It simply means

3281
02:57:12,120 --> 02:57:13,920
Speaker 6: it's sent to end encrypted. If you send from a

3282
02:57:13,959 --> 02:57:18,960
Speaker 6: proton address. The email address is cool Zone tips at

3283
02:57:19,000 --> 02:57:24,360
Speaker 6: proton dot me me. You can send story ideas, things

3284
02:57:24,360 --> 02:57:25,760
Speaker 6: that you think we should be reporting on, things that

3285
02:57:25,800 --> 02:57:27,280
Speaker 6: you've seen that you think you'd like to.

3286
02:57:27,320 --> 02:57:31,600
Speaker 5: Draw to our attention to that email address. We will

3287
02:57:32,000 --> 02:57:34,160
Speaker 5: try our best to get through all of those. We've

3288
02:57:34,200 --> 02:57:36,039
Speaker 5: been getting a lot of tips.

3289
02:57:36,200 --> 02:57:38,440
Speaker 6: Please don't take a personallybe don't get back to you,

3290
02:57:38,480 --> 02:57:40,119
Speaker 6: but we do appreciate you or reaching out.

3291
02:57:40,879 --> 02:57:41,920
Speaker 5: We reported the next.

3292
02:57:43,920 --> 02:57:47,120
Speaker 2: Hey, We'll be back Monday with more episodes every week

3293
02:57:47,160 --> 02:57:49,080
Speaker 2: from now until the heat death of the Universe.

3294
02:57:49,280 --> 02:57:51,879
Speaker 3: It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media.

3295
02:57:51,959 --> 02:57:55,039
Speaker 3: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

3296
02:57:55,080 --> 02:57:57,640
Speaker 3: cool Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the

3297
02:57:57,680 --> 02:57:59,640
Speaker 3: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts.

3298
02:58:00,080 --> 02:58:03,160
Speaker 12: Wherever you listen to podcasts, you can now find sources

3299
02:58:03,160 --> 02:58:05,840
Speaker 12: for it Could Happen Here, listed directly in episode descriptions.

3300
02:58:06,160 --> 02:58:07,000
Speaker 5: Thanks for listening.