WEBVTT - Face Value 

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<v Speaker 1>Pushkin. Before we get to this episode, I want to

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<v Speaker 1>recommend another podcast for you. Fiasco Aron Contra is another

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<v Speaker 1>Pushkin podcast by the co creator of Slowburn, Leon Nafok.

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<v Speaker 1>You'll learn how Ronald Reagan found himself in the middle

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<v Speaker 1>of a scandal that looked like it just might take

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<v Speaker 1>down his presidency. Fiasco Urn Contra is available wherever you

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<v Speaker 1>get your podcasts. Don't miss it. Hello, Hello, Malcolm Glabell.

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<v Speaker 1>Here today. I'm in the studio with my producer Lucy Sullivan. Lucy, Hi, Malcolm.

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<v Speaker 1>I understand you have a story for me about a

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<v Speaker 1>particular misunderstanding.

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<v Speaker 2>That is true. We're here because I want to tell

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<v Speaker 2>you about something I'm calling the Missy incident. It totally

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<v Speaker 2>changed the way that I think about something foundational, and

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<v Speaker 2>it also reminded me of you.

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<v Speaker 1>Of me, of you.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh God, Okay, So it all happened at the coffee

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<v Speaker 2>shop that I go to all the time.

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<v Speaker 1>Can you tell me what the name of the coffee shop.

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<v Speaker 2>Is, Malcolm. I can tell you the name of the

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<v Speaker 2>coffee shop off Mike, but my fellow cafe goers did

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<v Speaker 2>not want me to name it on this podcast because

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<v Speaker 2>it's that good.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh it's that good.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's so good. And it's the kind of place

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<v Speaker 2>that's always packed, so you have to be comfortable sitting

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<v Speaker 2>with a stranger if you want to get a seat.

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<v Speaker 2>And that's where this all starts. So the person at

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<v Speaker 2>the center of this, her name is Missy Kurzweil. She

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<v Speaker 2>was fresh off of maternity leave with her second kid

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<v Speaker 2>when the incident happened.

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<v Speaker 3>I think one of the things that happens when you

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<v Speaker 3>have a baby and her own maternity leave is like

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<v Speaker 3>you lose a bit of your identity and yourself. You're

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<v Speaker 3>spending all your time with a newborn who can't talk

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<v Speaker 3>back to you, and so I was sort of just

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<v Speaker 3>navigating that transition and wanting human interaction.

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<v Speaker 2>So Missy is looking for a place to work outside

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<v Speaker 2>of her home office and she finds the coffee shop

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<v Speaker 2>on her third morning of feeling out this place is

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<v Speaker 2>this where she wants to set up camp for her HQ.

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<v Speaker 2>She sits down at this table and in walks this

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<v Speaker 2>guy and he's like, hey, you mind if I sit here?

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<v Speaker 2>She says, sure, This is JJ good.

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<v Speaker 1>So JJ and Missy is sitting down together. What happens Missy?

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<v Speaker 2>Some of them with their kid's pediatrician and JJ is

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<v Speaker 2>sitting there eavesdropping, and you know, the doctor asked for

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<v Speaker 2>what's the patient's name, and Missy says, oh, his name's Remy.

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<v Speaker 3>And JJ freaked out because he was like, you have

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<v Speaker 3>a Remy, because I have a Remy. And then of

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<v Speaker 3>course like that, then we were off to the races.

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<v Speaker 2>Turns out they both have cats named Sonny. They both

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<v Speaker 2>are freelancers. He's a cookbook writer, she's also a writer.

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<v Speaker 3>So for me, it was like, on many levels, was

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<v Speaker 3>just really kind of a special bond instantly.

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<v Speaker 2>And I don't know if this is normal for you,

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<v Speaker 2>but like I don't usually I'm not usually chatting it

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<v Speaker 2>up with people at the coffee shop.

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<v Speaker 1>But these two and there's nothing romantic going on here.

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<v Speaker 2>Nothing romantic, yeah, strictly friends who are just like, wow,

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<v Speaker 2>we have so much in common.

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<v Speaker 3>I think, no matter where you're at in your life,

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<v Speaker 3>meeting someone like JJ feels unusual because he's just so

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<v Speaker 3>open and so seemingly genuinely interested in what you have

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<v Speaker 3>to say and what are all these details about your life?

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<v Speaker 2>So Missy is excited. She goes home and she tells

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<v Speaker 2>her husband, Oh my gosh, I've met this great friend

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<v Speaker 2>and I found this great coffee shop to work like

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<v Speaker 2>things couldn't be better. And so for the next few days,

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<v Speaker 2>Missy and JJ sit together, work together crucially, always at

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<v Speaker 2>the same spot in the front. But one day she

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<v Speaker 2>comes in and their usual table is taken, so she

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<v Speaker 2>just heads to a different one.

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<v Speaker 3>In the back, And maybe an hour after I sat down,

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<v Speaker 3>I see JJ kind of walk to the back and

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<v Speaker 3>he's looking around seemingly for a table, and we make

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<v Speaker 3>direct eye contact and I start to say, hey, JJ,

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<v Speaker 3>but he looks at me and sort of kind of

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<v Speaker 3>registers it and turns around and walks the other way.

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<v Speaker 1>Her ghosts her.

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<v Speaker 2>Ghost like completely like she was like, we made eye contact.

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<v Speaker 2>I was like, maybe he didn't see me, but no,

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<v Speaker 2>he saw me. Our eyes locked. I went to wave.

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<v Speaker 2>He turned around. So now Missus's like, what is going

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<v Speaker 2>on here? Like she had just met his wife a

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<v Speaker 2>couple of days before, and she's like, maybe the wife

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<v Speaker 2>wasn't comfortable with like, or maybe she's thinking something's going on.

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<v Speaker 2>Maybe I said something weird to him, like she's really

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<v Speaker 2>like spinning her.

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<v Speaker 3>And I went back the next day, sat in the back,

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<v Speaker 3>and the same thing happened where he walks by sort

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<v Speaker 3>of sees me seemingly like we make eye contact. And

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<v Speaker 3>this time I think I probably was a little bit

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<v Speaker 3>more reserved because of what had happened the day before.

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<v Speaker 3>And he turns around and walks the other way again,

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<v Speaker 3>and now I'm like, Okay, I think I might have

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<v Speaker 3>said something that offended him.

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<v Speaker 1>My name is Malcolm Gobwell. You're listening to Revisionist History,

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<v Speaker 1>my podcast about things overlooked and misunderstood. And since we're

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<v Speaker 1>talking about misunderstandings, whatever you think is going on in

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<v Speaker 1>this story right now, I promise you you've got it wrong.

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<v Speaker 2>So Missy is obviously super bummed about this, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, listen, I've been with my husband for a

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<v Speaker 2>long time, so i haven't been like on the dating scene,

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<v Speaker 2>but it definitely.

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<v Speaker 3>Had an equivalent like you put yourself out there and

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<v Speaker 3>you like, are you know, think that you're connecting with

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<v Speaker 3>someone but they're not experiencing that same thing.

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<v Speaker 2>She considered trying to find a new place to work,

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<v Speaker 2>but like I said, the coffee shop is just too good,

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<v Speaker 2>and so after a few days she decides, you know what,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm just gonna go back. I'm going to ignore the weirdness,

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<v Speaker 2>and this time their usual spot in the front is open,

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<v Speaker 2>so she sits down and then right on cue, JJ walks.

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<v Speaker 3>In and he sees me and his face lights up

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<v Speaker 3>and he's like, Missy, you haven't been here in like

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<v Speaker 3>a week or two, I've missed you. Where have you been?

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<v Speaker 3>And then he said it down and he's chit chatting

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<v Speaker 3>and he's catching up and he's asking questions just like nothing,

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<v Speaker 3>no time.

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<v Speaker 2>Passed, like nothing happened, like absolutely nothing happened.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, And I was so confused. I did not know

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<v Speaker 3>what to make of that, but I was kind of

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<v Speaker 3>just relieved that the freeze out was over, and so

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<v Speaker 3>I just went with it and was like, oh, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>good to see you again. And I just sort of

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<v Speaker 3>picked up where we left off and I didn't say anything.

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<v Speaker 2>And it wasn't too long after that that she discovered

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<v Speaker 2>what was really going on and why it seemed like

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<v Speaker 2>this new friend was just totally ignoring her.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm sitting at a table with JJ and a woman

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<v Speaker 3>walks in, super friendly, comes over to JJ and says, hey, JJ,

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<v Speaker 3>and I think goes to give him a hug and

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<v Speaker 3>asks him questions about how his kids are. Their conversation

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<v Speaker 3>lasts just a few minutes, and then she walks away

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<v Speaker 3>to get a coffee and he looks at me and

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<v Speaker 3>he goes, I don't know who that is. And I

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<v Speaker 3>was like, what, you seemed like you were friends with her,

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<v Speaker 3>and he was like, I have this face blindness thing.

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<v Speaker 3>It gives me a lot of anxiety because I'm probably

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<v Speaker 3>supposed to know her. And then I think I paused,

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<v Speaker 3>and I said something like, is that why you broke

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<v Speaker 3>up with me six months ago?

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<v Speaker 2>And this is the part that made me think of you, Malcolm,

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<v Speaker 2>face blindness, because I've heard that you also might be

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<v Speaker 2>a little face blind yourself.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, yes, that's true. This happens to me all the time.

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<v Speaker 1>I won't remember if I need to expose to face

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<v Speaker 1>a person on multiple occasions before their face becomes meaningful,

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<v Speaker 1>or even there, I don't know whether their face is

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<v Speaker 1>becoming meaningful, or that I am developing so many other

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<v Speaker 1>ways of recognizing them that I feel unsafer ground hm hm.

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<v Speaker 2>Like you're not just gonna remember someone that you've met

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<v Speaker 2>once or twice, no passing.

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<v Speaker 1>No, there's no chance that I will. I had a sash.

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<v Speaker 1>She's funny because I was sitting in my favorite coffee

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<v Speaker 1>shop and I see there's a guy who runs the

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<v Speaker 1>wine shop across the street. His name is Michael. I

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<v Speaker 1>know Michael for years. And I see Michael, or I

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<v Speaker 1>think it's Michael, and I see a slender man this fifties,

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<v Speaker 1>about five nine with glasses in a baseball cap across

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<v Speaker 1>the street from the wine shop, and I think, oh,

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<v Speaker 1>that's got to be Michael, and I go Michael, and

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<v Speaker 1>the guy looks me like really weird, and it comes over

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<v Speaker 1>and it was like my nightmare is like, oh my god, No,

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<v Speaker 1>it's not. It's just another dude who's in town who

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<v Speaker 1>looks a lot like Michael. But that was my system failed.

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<v Speaker 1>It's very rare for me to risk it like that,

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<v Speaker 1>but I risked it because I thought if Michael thinks

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<v Speaker 1>I had the reverse JJ, if Michael thinks I'm ignoring him,

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<v Speaker 1>then that's really bad. Because I go to the wine

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<v Speaker 1>shop all the time, and I like Michael.

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<v Speaker 2>See it's interesting because this like this never happens to me,

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<v Speaker 2>Like I'm often on the other side of it being

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<v Speaker 2>like all right, I'm just gonna pretend like I don't.

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<v Speaker 2>I always remember, I always remember. I always remember people

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<v Speaker 2>who are completely insignificant to me, like not in any

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<v Speaker 2>sort of like value judderent way. It's just like, oh,

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<v Speaker 2>I met you once at my friend's friends party four

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<v Speaker 2>years ago, and now you are standing next to me

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<v Speaker 2>in line.

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<v Speaker 1>At target, so completely foreign.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and this is why I actually Malcolm, to be honest,

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<v Speaker 2>Like when I had first heard saying I heard from

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<v Speaker 2>someone in passing before we started working together, like, oh, Malcolm,

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<v Speaker 2>he's face blind. He has trouble recognizing people. And I

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<v Speaker 2>was like, okay, like yeah, he's face blind, like because

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<v Speaker 2>I was thinking, like, I've never forgotten I just don't

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<v Speaker 2>forget people's faces. So I was like, if I were

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<v Speaker 2>you and I was meeting a million people all the

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<v Speaker 2>time and people recognize me from book covers, that would

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<v Speaker 2>be kind of a disorienting experience, and it would be

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<v Speaker 2>kind of nice to have an excuse like, oh I

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<v Speaker 2>don't remember you because I'm like face blind or whatever.

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<v Speaker 2>But I just couldn't believe that that was true until

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<v Speaker 2>I heard the story.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, no, no, I do. And it makes me feel

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<v Speaker 1>bad because I were in it. I mean, I feel

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<v Speaker 1>for JJ because it's you in this constant state of

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<v Speaker 1>worry about it that you're going to be perceived as

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<v Speaker 1>cold or aloof and you're not.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and so like this perception problem is exactly what

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<v Speaker 2>fascinates me about face blindness, which I've now spent way

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<v Speaker 2>too many hours learning about after hearing this story of

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<v Speaker 2>Missy and JJ, because I've always thought that being able

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<v Speaker 2>to recognize someone was about, you know, having a good

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<v Speaker 2>or a bad memory whatever that means, yeah, or just

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<v Speaker 2>frankly caring enough to remember them, like you worry that

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<v Speaker 2>you might be perceived as cold or aloof if you

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<v Speaker 2>don't had a Michael or Missy thought her new friend

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<v Speaker 2>was ignoring her. I seem to remember way more faces

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<v Speaker 2>than I want to. I really wanted to understand what's

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<v Speaker 2>actually going on in our brains when all this happens.

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<v Speaker 1>After the break, Lucy Sullivan takes us behind the face

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<v Speaker 1>and into the brain.

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<v Speaker 2>JJ Good, Missy's friend from the coffee shop, doesn't know

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<v Speaker 2>exactly when he realized he had a problem with faces.

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<v Speaker 2>He just kept having these strange experiences like this one

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<v Speaker 2>time when he ran into a woman on the train

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<v Speaker 2>and he knew he was supposed to know who she was,

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<v Speaker 2>but he had no idea.

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<v Speaker 4>And we had this conversation where I was like, how

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<v Speaker 4>is everything? Things are good with me? Like, I didn't

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<v Speaker 4>mention any there's no specifics because I wanted to make

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<v Speaker 4>like I didn't want it. If you walked in and

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<v Speaker 4>someone had no idea who were, you would feel bad

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<v Speaker 4>about yourself.

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<v Speaker 2>JJ said he also realized something was off when he'd

0:11:48.596 --> 0:11:52.316
<v Speaker 2>watch movies and TV shows. He'd sometimes completely miss a

0:11:52.356 --> 0:11:53.236
<v Speaker 2>big plot point.

0:11:53.516 --> 0:11:57.236
<v Speaker 4>When my wife and I were watching a show, I'll

0:11:57.276 --> 0:12:00.436
<v Speaker 4>be like, who's that guy? And she's like, it's the

0:12:00.476 --> 0:12:03.236
<v Speaker 4>main character. He just has a hat on, like it's

0:12:03.356 --> 0:12:07.236
<v Speaker 4>literally Robert de Niro from the other scene, and I

0:12:07.276 --> 0:12:09.196
<v Speaker 4>was like, ooh, this is kind of strange.

0:12:09.316 --> 0:12:12.476
<v Speaker 2>All of this has led to many awkward situations, and

0:12:12.516 --> 0:12:15.716
<v Speaker 2>it's made JJ very aware of other people's feelings. What

0:12:15.836 --> 0:12:17.716
<v Speaker 2>happened with Missy still haunts him.

0:12:18.076 --> 0:12:19.916
<v Speaker 4>I am afraid that I might have an interaction with

0:12:19.956 --> 0:12:22.396
<v Speaker 4>someone and I might not recognize them, and I might

0:12:22.436 --> 0:12:25.676
<v Speaker 4>not give them the attention that makes them feel good.

0:12:26.356 --> 0:12:29.276
<v Speaker 2>It's worth noting that JJ himself is easy to spot.

0:12:29.636 --> 0:12:30.956
<v Speaker 2>He was born with one arm.

0:12:31.596 --> 0:12:35.756
<v Speaker 4>Walking around with one arm, you are highly recognizable. It's like,

0:12:35.756 --> 0:12:38.356
<v Speaker 4>how many one armed people do you meet? Probably not

0:12:38.396 --> 0:12:41.396
<v Speaker 4>a lot. So everybody comes into the coffee shop and

0:12:41.836 --> 0:12:45.276
<v Speaker 4>if you see me, you probably will recognize me as

0:12:45.316 --> 0:12:47.436
<v Speaker 4>that guy from the coffee shop the next day. But

0:12:47.716 --> 0:12:51.516
<v Speaker 4>I don't recognize a lot of the people who come in.

0:12:51.556 --> 0:12:54.196
<v Speaker 2>A while back, JJ told some friends about these weird

0:12:54.236 --> 0:12:57.636
<v Speaker 2>moments he'd always had, not recognizing people, and they asked

0:12:57.676 --> 0:13:01.156
<v Speaker 2>if he'd ever heard of face blindness. They said, Oliver Sachs,

0:13:01.236 --> 0:13:03.876
<v Speaker 2>the science writer, had it too, and that's when it

0:13:03.876 --> 0:13:04.676
<v Speaker 2>clicked for JJ.

0:13:06.156 --> 0:13:07.956
<v Speaker 5>So it is a little bit of the stealth disort.

0:13:07.996 --> 0:13:10.076
<v Speaker 5>I mean, the people only to learn they have it

0:13:10.196 --> 0:13:13.956
<v Speaker 5>often when they are subjected to a whole bunch of

0:13:13.996 --> 0:13:14.956
<v Speaker 5>new people they have to meet.

0:13:15.516 --> 0:13:19.156
<v Speaker 2>This is doctor Joe Degudis. He's a cognitive neuroscientist and

0:13:19.196 --> 0:13:23.356
<v Speaker 2>he studies facial recognition to Gouda's teachers at Harvard Medical

0:13:23.396 --> 0:13:26.396
<v Speaker 2>School and runs a lab out of the Boston VA Hospital.

0:13:27.076 --> 0:13:29.916
<v Speaker 5>We've studied how people become aware that they have this,

0:13:30.596 --> 0:13:32.676
<v Speaker 5>and often it's a little rocky. It's a little bit

0:13:32.796 --> 0:13:35.636
<v Speaker 5>like you know in school, they're like, I just don't

0:13:35.676 --> 0:13:39.036
<v Speaker 5>pay attention, or I don't care as much about people,

0:13:39.756 --> 0:13:41.956
<v Speaker 5>or maybe I'm a little bit on the spectrum. They

0:13:41.996 --> 0:13:44.116
<v Speaker 5>have all these attributions they can give.

0:13:44.836 --> 0:13:47.396
<v Speaker 2>The thing about people who are quote unquote face blind

0:13:47.676 --> 0:13:50.996
<v Speaker 2>is that they're not actually blind. They're not seeing blurs

0:13:51.036 --> 0:13:54.956
<v Speaker 2>where people's faces are. They can see eyes, nose, mouth, ears,

0:13:55.036 --> 0:13:57.236
<v Speaker 2>and they can read emotions and tell whether or not

0:13:57.276 --> 0:13:59.956
<v Speaker 2>someone's attractive the same way we all do. The best

0:14:00.076 --> 0:14:02.596
<v Speaker 2>estimates I could find suggests that around three percent of

0:14:02.636 --> 0:14:06.676
<v Speaker 2>the population has some form of face blindness. Sometimes it's

0:14:06.676 --> 0:14:09.196
<v Speaker 2>the result of a traumatic brain injury, but some some

0:14:09.196 --> 0:14:12.156
<v Speaker 2>people are just born with it. Scientists think it could

0:14:12.156 --> 0:14:14.716
<v Speaker 2>be genetic or that the network in the brain that

0:14:14.756 --> 0:14:19.076
<v Speaker 2>recognizes faces just doesn't develop normally. But for most of us,

0:14:19.356 --> 0:14:22.036
<v Speaker 2>a face is the trigger that calls up all the

0:14:22.076 --> 0:14:23.516
<v Speaker 2>information we know about a person.

0:14:24.316 --> 0:14:27.836
<v Speaker 5>If you see somebody's face, it quickly triggers the retrieval

0:14:27.876 --> 0:14:30.236
<v Speaker 5>of all this other information about them, like you know

0:14:30.276 --> 0:14:32.316
<v Speaker 5>who they are, how you know them, all these other

0:14:32.396 --> 0:14:35.356
<v Speaker 5>details about the person. So it has this kind of

0:14:35.396 --> 0:14:39.516
<v Speaker 5>privileged role in terms of getting all this other information out.

0:14:42.356 --> 0:14:47.276
<v Speaker 2>The clinical term for face blindness is prosopagnosia. An Agnosia

0:14:47.356 --> 0:14:51.836
<v Speaker 2>is an inability to recognize something. Prosopagnosia uses the Greek

0:14:51.876 --> 0:14:55.836
<v Speaker 2>word for face prose obo, which also happens to be

0:14:55.876 --> 0:14:59.116
<v Speaker 2>the Greek word for person. So much of who we

0:14:59.156 --> 0:15:01.996
<v Speaker 2>are is wrapped up in this one part of our bodies.

0:15:02.436 --> 0:15:04.716
<v Speaker 2>I want you to stop for a second. Think about

0:15:04.756 --> 0:15:07.916
<v Speaker 2>your mom, or your best friend or your kid. You're

0:15:07.956 --> 0:15:11.116
<v Speaker 2>not picturing their elbow, are you? I mean, maybe you are.

0:15:11.196 --> 0:15:14.436
<v Speaker 2>Crazier things have happened. My point is, for most of us,

0:15:14.756 --> 0:15:18.476
<v Speaker 2>it's almost impossible to decouple who someone is from their face.

0:15:19.316 --> 0:15:22.316
<v Speaker 5>It's something that is also very special about humans.

0:15:22.956 --> 0:15:25.396
<v Speaker 2>This special thing that Do Goodas is talking about here

0:15:25.716 --> 0:15:28.876
<v Speaker 2>has to do with our brains. We have a specific

0:15:29.076 --> 0:15:33.636
<v Speaker 2>network that's just for recognizing faces, and it functions unlike

0:15:33.676 --> 0:15:34.956
<v Speaker 2>any other kind of cognition.

0:15:35.596 --> 0:15:38.556
<v Speaker 5>So when I recognize a chair, I'm like, oh, okay,

0:15:38.596 --> 0:15:40.956
<v Speaker 5>it has something to sit on, has some legs, and boom,

0:15:40.996 --> 0:15:44.476
<v Speaker 5>it's a chair. You're recognizing things at this functional level,

0:15:44.996 --> 0:15:48.036
<v Speaker 5>which is like, okay, how do I interact with this thing?

0:15:48.236 --> 0:15:50.596
<v Speaker 6>You know, usually you can do it part by part.

0:15:50.676 --> 0:15:52.156
<v Speaker 5>One of the things that we do with face is

0:15:52.196 --> 0:15:55.596
<v Speaker 5>more than any other, like visual object, is you process

0:15:55.676 --> 0:15:58.516
<v Speaker 5>it as a gestalt as a whole. Because we have

0:15:58.636 --> 0:16:00.996
<v Speaker 5>to kind of recognize them and not just like Okay,

0:16:01.036 --> 0:16:01.556
<v Speaker 5>that's a face.

0:16:01.596 --> 0:16:02.076
<v Speaker 1>That's a face.

0:16:02.076 --> 0:16:04.356
<v Speaker 5>We have to be like okay, that's my friend. Oh

0:16:04.436 --> 0:16:06.836
<v Speaker 5>that's not that's so moy, that's the person at work

0:16:06.876 --> 0:16:09.836
<v Speaker 5>who I need to avoid. And so it's like, I

0:16:09.916 --> 0:16:14.476
<v Speaker 5>think that the individuation demands of faces maybe are why

0:16:14.516 --> 0:16:17.796
<v Speaker 5>we kind of had this specialized system to process faces.

0:16:18.516 --> 0:16:22.436
<v Speaker 2>Frogs you sound, birds you smell, and we humans love

0:16:22.476 --> 0:16:25.436
<v Speaker 2>this one cluster of features sitting on top of our necks.

0:16:26.196 --> 0:16:29.676
<v Speaker 2>We are social animals, and researchers think that's part of

0:16:29.716 --> 0:16:33.036
<v Speaker 2>why humans developed this special recognition network in our brains,

0:16:33.596 --> 0:16:37.196
<v Speaker 2>because it served us. Faces have evolved to look really

0:16:37.236 --> 0:16:40.156
<v Speaker 2>different from person to person, more so than any other

0:16:40.196 --> 0:16:44.196
<v Speaker 2>body part. Scientists at UC Berkeley think that this had

0:16:44.236 --> 0:16:48.556
<v Speaker 2>an evolutionary purpose. It helped us socialize. Not only was

0:16:48.556 --> 0:16:52.076
<v Speaker 2>it beneficial to be recognizable, but also then to be

0:16:52.196 --> 0:16:55.996
<v Speaker 2>able to recognize others. Humans had to get really good

0:16:56.076 --> 0:16:59.596
<v Speaker 2>at differentiating friend from foe, and we did get really

0:16:59.596 --> 0:17:05.076
<v Speaker 2>good at it, well most of us anyways. Degodas told

0:17:05.076 --> 0:17:08.556
<v Speaker 2>me that the ability to recognize faces is a spectrum.

0:17:09.116 --> 0:17:10.796
<v Speaker 5>These are all these kind of internal things that we

0:17:10.876 --> 0:17:14.756
<v Speaker 5>don't talk about, and we just assume that everybody's kind

0:17:14.756 --> 0:17:16.956
<v Speaker 5>of like us, right, and after.

0:17:16.756 --> 0:17:19.076
<v Speaker 2>The break, we're going to the other end of that

0:17:19.116 --> 0:17:21.996
<v Speaker 2>spectrum to see what it's like for the people who

0:17:22.156 --> 0:17:40.476
<v Speaker 2>never forget a face, the super recognizers. One morning back

0:17:40.476 --> 0:17:43.476
<v Speaker 2>in nineteen eighty four, a little kid named Frank Vaughn

0:17:43.636 --> 0:17:46.236
<v Speaker 2>was about to have a very exciting day of school.

0:17:47.036 --> 0:17:49.596
<v Speaker 6>I was nine years old and my fourth grade class

0:17:49.716 --> 0:17:52.756
<v Speaker 6>was invited on a school field trip to the Governor's

0:17:52.756 --> 0:17:53.876
<v Speaker 6>office in Little Rock.

0:17:54.516 --> 0:17:56.876
<v Speaker 2>That's Governor Bill Clinton's office, to be exact.

0:17:57.436 --> 0:18:00.116
<v Speaker 6>They arranged just all in a semi circle in cross

0:18:00.196 --> 0:18:03.156
<v Speaker 6>leg style and we waited for the man to show up,

0:18:03.236 --> 0:18:06.876
<v Speaker 6>and typical of politicians, he was around fifteen minutes late.

0:18:07.556 --> 0:18:10.316
<v Speaker 6>He walks out, he sits down, and he immediately turns

0:18:10.356 --> 0:18:12.196
<v Speaker 6>and he snaps his fingers and points at one of

0:18:12.196 --> 0:18:14.996
<v Speaker 6>his female staffers and said, you go get my pepsi,

0:18:15.716 --> 0:18:17.676
<v Speaker 6>and she took off on a dead run for his

0:18:17.836 --> 0:18:19.636
<v Speaker 6>inner office to go grab that pepsi.

0:18:20.036 --> 0:18:22.916
<v Speaker 2>Frank was a scrawny nine year old boy with feathery

0:18:22.956 --> 0:18:25.836
<v Speaker 2>blonde hair that grew out in all directions. Nerdy kid,

0:18:25.916 --> 0:18:28.916
<v Speaker 2>always cracking jokes for attention. Frank said that he and

0:18:28.956 --> 0:18:31.716
<v Speaker 2>his classmates were so excited about meeting the governor.

0:18:32.316 --> 0:18:35.076
<v Speaker 6>There was this almost throne like velvet chair sitting in

0:18:35.116 --> 0:18:37.276
<v Speaker 6>the middle of the room, and he sits down in it,

0:18:37.316 --> 0:18:39.756
<v Speaker 6>and he crosses his legs and he, you know, just

0:18:39.796 --> 0:18:41.196
<v Speaker 6>sort of gets himself arranged.

0:18:41.716 --> 0:18:44.556
<v Speaker 2>Frank Krumember's feeling in awe of this man sitting on

0:18:44.596 --> 0:18:48.076
<v Speaker 2>a throne barking out pepsi orders, he said. The governor

0:18:48.116 --> 0:18:51.196
<v Speaker 2>greeted them all and started asking them questions, and then

0:18:51.556 --> 0:18:53.276
<v Speaker 2>Clinton zeroed in on Frank.

0:18:54.116 --> 0:18:55.556
<v Speaker 6>I don't know if I just have one of those

0:18:55.556 --> 0:18:58.396
<v Speaker 6>faces or what, but for some reason, he settled on me,

0:18:58.596 --> 0:19:00.116
<v Speaker 6>and he pointed at me and he said, you, what

0:19:00.156 --> 0:19:02.076
<v Speaker 6>do you want to be when you grow up? And

0:19:02.156 --> 0:19:05.156
<v Speaker 6>after witnessing everything I had just seen, the only answer

0:19:05.196 --> 0:19:06.916
<v Speaker 6>I could come up with was I want to be you.

0:19:07.716 --> 0:19:11.316
<v Speaker 2>Frank said that his teacher horrified at this response. He

0:19:11.356 --> 0:19:12.876
<v Speaker 2>thought he was about to get in trouble like he

0:19:12.956 --> 0:19:14.636
<v Speaker 2>usually did for cracking jokes.

0:19:14.876 --> 0:19:17.716
<v Speaker 6>And then the governor started laughing, and of course when

0:19:17.756 --> 0:19:21.276
<v Speaker 6>he starts laughing, his staff joins in and we all

0:19:21.396 --> 0:19:23.996
<v Speaker 6>joined in, and it sort of released all the tension

0:19:24.036 --> 0:19:24.476
<v Speaker 6>in the room.

0:19:24.956 --> 0:19:27.876
<v Speaker 2>Clinton moved on from Frank asked some other kids questions.

0:19:28.236 --> 0:19:31.036
<v Speaker 2>He lectured them about the importance of eating their vegetables

0:19:31.036 --> 0:19:33.396
<v Speaker 2>and doing their homework, and then he sent the class

0:19:33.476 --> 0:19:38.996
<v Speaker 2>on their way. That was that. Okay, So now we're

0:19:38.996 --> 0:19:42.436
<v Speaker 2>going to fast forward thirteen years later. March of nineteen

0:19:42.476 --> 0:19:45.476
<v Speaker 2>ninety seven. Clinton is just a few months into his

0:19:45.556 --> 0:19:48.236
<v Speaker 2>second term as president and back in his home state

0:19:48.276 --> 0:19:51.556
<v Speaker 2>of Arkansas. A series of tornadoes have just destroyed the

0:19:51.556 --> 0:19:55.876
<v Speaker 2>town of Arkadelphia. Twenty five people were killed, dozens were injured,

0:19:56.156 --> 0:19:59.076
<v Speaker 2>twelve hundred buildings were leveled. It was a huge disaster.

0:19:59.996 --> 0:20:03.276
<v Speaker 2>Governor Mike Huckabee declares the state of emergency FEMA is

0:20:03.316 --> 0:20:06.436
<v Speaker 2>called in and a few days after the storm settles

0:20:06.476 --> 0:20:10.396
<v Speaker 2>and the rebuilding has started, President Clinton visits Arkadelphia.

0:20:10.916 --> 0:20:12.436
<v Speaker 6>It's obviously you all have done a lot of work

0:20:12.436 --> 0:20:12.756
<v Speaker 6>here in.

0:20:12.676 --> 0:20:17.636
<v Speaker 2>Just a couple of days. Everybody is really Frank Vaughn

0:20:17.796 --> 0:20:20.596
<v Speaker 2>is no longer a little boy. He's a six foot

0:20:20.636 --> 0:20:25.116
<v Speaker 2>one college student attending Wachetah Baptist University in Arkadelphia. That

0:20:25.196 --> 0:20:28.716
<v Speaker 2>feathery blonde hair is now closely cropped in the style

0:20:28.836 --> 0:20:32.796
<v Speaker 2>typical of his fellow members of the Reserve Officer Training Corps.

0:20:33.236 --> 0:20:35.436
<v Speaker 2>Frank and his friends heard that the President was in town,

0:20:35.796 --> 0:20:38.476
<v Speaker 2>so they went to try and see him. Frank said

0:20:38.476 --> 0:20:40.476
<v Speaker 2>that there were hundreds of people lining the streets of

0:20:40.556 --> 0:20:41.676
<v Speaker 2>Arcadelphia doing the same.

0:20:43.236 --> 0:20:45.716
<v Speaker 6>And honestly, when I saw the entourage coming up the

0:20:45.716 --> 0:20:48.036
<v Speaker 6>street with the Secret Service agents and the governor was

0:20:48.076 --> 0:20:50.316
<v Speaker 6>with him, I thought, well, he's going to walk down

0:20:50.316 --> 0:20:51.876
<v Speaker 6>the middle of the street because there's no way they're

0:20:51.876 --> 0:20:55.076
<v Speaker 6>going to let him have, you know, physical contact with people.

0:20:55.196 --> 0:20:57.756
<v Speaker 6>He's the president, And I was wrong.

0:20:58.396 --> 0:21:01.396
<v Speaker 2>President Clinton, ever of the people person, starts making his

0:21:01.436 --> 0:21:04.716
<v Speaker 2>way into the crowd, shaking hands and taking pictures with kids.

0:21:05.196 --> 0:21:07.196
<v Speaker 6>There was a limited about a three block area that

0:21:07.236 --> 0:21:09.116
<v Speaker 6>we were allowed to stand on from street to street,

0:21:09.156 --> 0:21:11.996
<v Speaker 6>eat the street. But he literally went up one block

0:21:12.036 --> 0:21:15.396
<v Speaker 6>shaking hands, turned went back down the next block shaking hands,

0:21:15.436 --> 0:21:17.796
<v Speaker 6>turned and went back up the third block. I mean,

0:21:17.836 --> 0:21:20.996
<v Speaker 6>he spent a good four hours just walking these blocks

0:21:20.996 --> 0:21:22.116
<v Speaker 6>and shaking hands with people.

0:21:22.916 --> 0:21:26.396
<v Speaker 2>And then Clinton gets to where Frank and his friends

0:21:26.476 --> 0:21:27.076
<v Speaker 2>are standing.

0:21:28.076 --> 0:21:31.196
<v Speaker 6>He stopped, stuck his hand out, shook my hand, and

0:21:31.236 --> 0:21:33.596
<v Speaker 6>he looked at me and he leaned in and he said,

0:21:34.116 --> 0:21:35.196
<v Speaker 6>do you still want to be me?

0:21:37.956 --> 0:21:41.196
<v Speaker 2>Frank said that he almost passed out there he was

0:21:41.356 --> 0:21:43.796
<v Speaker 2>in the middle of a disaster zone in his college,

0:21:43.796 --> 0:21:47.396
<v Speaker 2>shown shaking hands with the President of the United States,

0:21:47.636 --> 0:21:50.676
<v Speaker 2>who has just recalled a small anecdote from meeting him

0:21:51.156 --> 0:21:54.596
<v Speaker 2>thirteen years earlier, when he was nine years old and

0:21:54.676 --> 0:21:56.076
<v Speaker 2>several feet shorter.

0:21:56.836 --> 0:21:58.596
<v Speaker 6>The first thought in my mind was I need to

0:21:58.596 --> 0:22:00.996
<v Speaker 6>go to church and pray because this is like demonic.

0:22:01.676 --> 0:22:04.036
<v Speaker 6>It was just so shocking. And listen, when I tell

0:22:04.076 --> 0:22:06.796
<v Speaker 6>this story, I know it's hard to believe. I understand

0:22:06.836 --> 0:22:10.916
<v Speaker 6>that it seems almost impossible. But if, as we say

0:22:10.956 --> 0:22:12.476
<v Speaker 6>back home, if I'm lying, I'm dying.

0:22:13.836 --> 0:22:16.516
<v Speaker 2>I asked Frank how he thought Clinton could possibly have

0:22:16.636 --> 0:22:17.436
<v Speaker 2>remembered him.

0:22:17.956 --> 0:22:20.556
<v Speaker 6>Some people are just like that. I guess it's little

0:22:20.596 --> 0:22:25.756
<v Speaker 6>wonder that he was born in Hope, Arkansas, to a

0:22:25.876 --> 0:22:28.116
<v Speaker 6>very poor family and ended up being the most powerful

0:22:28.156 --> 0:22:31.196
<v Speaker 6>man in the world. You don't get there without talent.

0:22:31.836 --> 0:22:35.676
<v Speaker 2>People always talk about this mythical charisma Clinton possessed. He

0:22:35.756 --> 0:22:39.076
<v Speaker 2>dazzled voters on the Campian Trail, and believe it or not,

0:22:39.236 --> 0:22:42.676
<v Speaker 2>there are tons of stories just like Frank's. The comedian

0:22:42.756 --> 0:22:45.116
<v Speaker 2>John Mullaney has a whole bit in his twenty fifteen

0:22:45.156 --> 0:22:48.316
<v Speaker 2>comedy special about Clinton's ability to remember people.

0:22:49.596 --> 0:22:51.716
<v Speaker 7>I want to tell you one more story before I

0:22:51.716 --> 0:22:53.876
<v Speaker 7>get out of here, about the night I met a

0:22:53.876 --> 0:22:55.116
<v Speaker 7>guy named Bill Clinton.

0:22:55.716 --> 0:22:58.516
<v Speaker 2>Mullaney tells the story of this disagreement between his parents,

0:22:58.796 --> 0:23:02.156
<v Speaker 2>who went to college with Clinton at Georgetown University, over

0:23:02.196 --> 0:23:05.556
<v Speaker 2>whether or not Clinton would remember his mom Ellen. Apparently,

0:23:05.596 --> 0:23:08.316
<v Speaker 2>he would sometimes walk her home from the library and college,

0:23:09.156 --> 0:23:11.036
<v Speaker 2>and he talks about his mom dragging him to a

0:23:11.076 --> 0:23:13.756
<v Speaker 2>campaign event in the nineties to see if the presidential

0:23:13.796 --> 0:23:17.116
<v Speaker 2>hopeful still remember their walks. Here's what happens.

0:23:17.716 --> 0:23:20.676
<v Speaker 7>She was swinging me like a snowplow. I was just

0:23:20.876 --> 0:23:26.556
<v Speaker 7>mowing down fat Chicago Democrats. I pushed past all the reporters.

0:23:26.756 --> 0:23:29.876
<v Speaker 7>I pushed past all the photographers, We push past all

0:23:29.916 --> 0:23:34.116
<v Speaker 7>the Secret Service. We land at Bill Clinton's feet. Bill

0:23:34.156 --> 0:23:37.996
<v Speaker 7>Clinton turns, looks at my mom and says, hey, Ellen,

0:23:38.276 --> 0:23:40.676
<v Speaker 7>because he never forgets a bitch ever.

0:23:43.756 --> 0:23:48.596
<v Speaker 2>Remember, Facial recognition abilities are on a spectrum. Researchers are

0:23:48.596 --> 0:23:52.196
<v Speaker 2>pretty sure it's a normal distribution, with prosopagnosics on the

0:23:52.196 --> 0:23:55.156
<v Speaker 2>low end. Most of you listening are probably somewhere in

0:23:55.156 --> 0:23:57.956
<v Speaker 2>the normal range, But there are also these people on

0:23:58.036 --> 0:24:02.596
<v Speaker 2>the very high end, the super recognizers. Those who never

0:24:02.796 --> 0:24:07.916
<v Speaker 2>forget a face ever. Something that the super recognizers are

0:24:08.036 --> 0:24:11.316
<v Speaker 2>uniquely good at is being able to identify people even

0:24:11.356 --> 0:24:13.876
<v Speaker 2>after a lot of time has passed or they've made

0:24:13.916 --> 0:24:16.716
<v Speaker 2>changes to their appearance. This is something that Bill Clinton

0:24:16.916 --> 0:24:19.476
<v Speaker 2>is very good at. Now we can't know for sure,

0:24:19.556 --> 0:24:22.356
<v Speaker 2>and Bill Clinton has never said anything about this super

0:24:22.436 --> 0:24:25.956
<v Speaker 2>recognizing ability, but I'd venture to say that he is

0:24:26.036 --> 0:24:31.636
<v Speaker 2>almost certainly a super recognizer. Doctor Joe Degutis, the neuroscientist,

0:24:31.956 --> 0:24:34.116
<v Speaker 2>told me that one of the ways they test facial

0:24:34.156 --> 0:24:37.716
<v Speaker 2>recognition abilities is by showing people pictures of celebrities when

0:24:37.716 --> 0:24:40.276
<v Speaker 2>they were kids, the before they were famous.

0:24:40.316 --> 0:24:43.756
<v Speaker 5>Tests. Oh, it's a picture of like, you know, Barack

0:24:43.756 --> 0:24:46.276
<v Speaker 5>Obama when he was like two years old, and super

0:24:46.276 --> 0:24:48.796
<v Speaker 5>recognizers can like see it. There's this kind of cool

0:24:49.516 --> 0:24:52.076
<v Speaker 5>extrapolation thing that you can be like, I can see

0:24:52.836 --> 0:24:54.916
<v Speaker 5>you know how that could be a younger version of

0:24:54.916 --> 0:24:55.676
<v Speaker 5>Barack Obama.

0:24:56.196 --> 0:24:58.596
<v Speaker 2>While I was reporting the story, I came across a

0:24:58.596 --> 0:25:02.036
<v Speaker 2>bunch of tests online, like the before they were famous one.

0:25:02.556 --> 0:25:04.436
<v Speaker 2>You can take them to gauge how good or bad

0:25:04.476 --> 0:25:07.876
<v Speaker 2>you are at recognizing faces, and I kept getting really

0:25:07.916 --> 0:25:12.036
<v Speaker 2>good scores on them. Suddenly everything started to make sense.

0:25:12.796 --> 0:25:15.076
<v Speaker 2>Remember earlier, when I was telling Malcolm that I never

0:25:15.116 --> 0:25:18.716
<v Speaker 2>forget people that I sometimes feel creepy after recognizing someone

0:25:18.716 --> 0:25:22.436
<v Speaker 2>in line at Target. I started to suspect that maybe

0:25:22.556 --> 0:25:27.676
<v Speaker 2>I was one of these super recognizers. While JJ misses

0:25:27.676 --> 0:25:30.476
<v Speaker 2>the plot of some movies and TV shows, I get

0:25:30.516 --> 0:25:34.076
<v Speaker 2>distracted by extras, like, for instance, when I noticed that

0:25:34.116 --> 0:25:36.636
<v Speaker 2>a passing character in a two thousand and one episode

0:25:36.636 --> 0:25:39.436
<v Speaker 2>of Sex in the City is the guy who spoiler

0:25:39.436 --> 0:25:42.036
<v Speaker 2>alert gets murdered in the first season of the show

0:25:42.116 --> 0:25:46.036
<v Speaker 2>White Lotus twenty years later. Faceblind people can't find their

0:25:46.036 --> 0:25:48.956
<v Speaker 2>friends on the street will I sometimes walk past someone

0:25:48.956 --> 0:25:52.156
<v Speaker 2>that I recognize as my high school friend's cousin who

0:25:52.196 --> 0:25:55.756
<v Speaker 2>I've only seen pictures of. In one of our early calls,

0:25:55.916 --> 0:25:58.876
<v Speaker 2>I told Degotas about my theory and being the good

0:25:58.916 --> 0:26:01.596
<v Speaker 2>scientist he is. He wasn't sold right away.

0:26:02.476 --> 0:26:05.996
<v Speaker 5>I mean, maybe you just like convinced yourself that you're

0:26:06.036 --> 0:26:07.716
<v Speaker 5>super and you're not really super.

0:26:08.076 --> 0:26:12.876
<v Speaker 2>He needed cold data, not random BuzzFeed quizzes. So I

0:26:12.876 --> 0:26:15.756
<v Speaker 2>hopped on Zoom with his research assistant Kaylea Kusel and

0:26:15.796 --> 0:26:19.076
<v Speaker 2>took a three hour battery of tests designed to definitively

0:26:19.116 --> 0:26:24.476
<v Speaker 2>say whether or not. I was a super recognizer, all right.

0:26:24.516 --> 0:26:26.956
<v Speaker 2>So the next one it's called face name. You can

0:26:26.996 --> 0:26:29.516
<v Speaker 2>go ahead and click on that link. The test started

0:26:29.556 --> 0:26:32.956
<v Speaker 2>off super easy. I was breezing through. So they're showing

0:26:32.996 --> 0:26:35.796
<v Speaker 2>me that same face from like different angles, and I

0:26:35.836 --> 0:26:38.796
<v Speaker 2>would say that is extreme eazy. But things out weirder

0:26:38.836 --> 0:26:40.956
<v Speaker 2>as the hours went on, and I started to get

0:26:40.996 --> 0:26:44.036
<v Speaker 2>a little stressed. No, I'm getting nervous. I'm like, goodn't

0:26:44.076 --> 0:26:47.596
<v Speaker 2>you want to get these right? Which is one of

0:26:47.636 --> 0:26:51.556
<v Speaker 2>the six target faces one. I had to do things

0:26:51.596 --> 0:26:54.396
<v Speaker 2>like remember jobs and names of people whose faces would

0:26:54.436 --> 0:26:57.516
<v Speaker 2>flash across the screen really quickly, and at one point

0:26:57.556 --> 0:27:02.396
<v Speaker 2>I was matching spiky blobs with other spiky blobs. That

0:27:02.476 --> 0:27:04.196
<v Speaker 2>one was so hard.

0:27:05.636 --> 0:27:07.356
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, the Georgia's is really crazy.

0:27:07.636 --> 0:27:10.356
<v Speaker 2>I like made me feel like I'd took drugs or something.

0:27:10.396 --> 0:27:13.476
<v Speaker 2>I was like, well, what's happening here? Kayla and I

0:27:13.516 --> 0:27:15.396
<v Speaker 2>wrapped up and she said they'd get back to me

0:27:15.396 --> 0:27:17.716
<v Speaker 2>in a few days with my results. I was eager

0:27:17.756 --> 0:27:19.916
<v Speaker 2>to hear them and unsure of what they would be.

0:27:20.716 --> 0:27:22.796
<v Speaker 2>By the end, I didn't think I did very well,

0:27:23.036 --> 0:27:25.396
<v Speaker 2>and I was kind of embarrassed about the whole charade.

0:27:26.116 --> 0:27:30.476
<v Speaker 2>What if I was just average. A few days later,

0:27:30.996 --> 0:27:31.996
<v Speaker 2>the verdict.

0:27:31.796 --> 0:27:32.116
<v Speaker 7>Was in.

0:27:33.996 --> 0:27:36.196
<v Speaker 2>Degotas and I hopped on a zoom call to go

0:27:36.236 --> 0:27:37.516
<v Speaker 2>over my results.

0:27:37.796 --> 0:27:40.036
<v Speaker 5>I mean, you're kind of the complete package for a

0:27:40.076 --> 0:27:43.076
<v Speaker 5>super recognizer. So I'm wow, I kind of I feel

0:27:43.076 --> 0:27:45.076
<v Speaker 5>like I mean maybe when I when you started taking

0:27:45.116 --> 0:27:47.156
<v Speaker 5>the test, I was a little skeptical, but I think

0:27:47.236 --> 0:27:49.636
<v Speaker 5>I think you're You're right on. I think this is.

0:27:52.116 --> 0:27:54.596
<v Speaker 2>Okay. I have to admit I was over the moon

0:27:54.796 --> 0:27:59.156
<v Speaker 2>at being called the complete package. I said, please go on.

0:28:00.036 --> 0:28:04.436
<v Speaker 5>Actually looking at your results, you were like perfect on

0:28:04.516 --> 0:28:07.836
<v Speaker 5>two of the uh on two of the diagnostic tests,

0:28:07.916 --> 0:28:10.636
<v Speaker 5>like you didn't get a single itema wrong. You also

0:28:10.716 --> 0:28:14.436
<v Speaker 5>did really well in this very impossible task where we

0:28:14.516 --> 0:28:18.156
<v Speaker 5>had you, you know, try to learn sixty faces in

0:28:18.196 --> 0:28:19.956
<v Speaker 5>a very short period of time and you had to

0:28:19.996 --> 0:28:23.156
<v Speaker 5>recognize them like out of one hundred and twenty faces.

0:28:23.276 --> 0:28:24.676
<v Speaker 2>Oh that one was so hard.

0:28:25.316 --> 0:28:27.036
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, no, you did. I mean that's the thing.

0:28:27.076 --> 0:28:28.636
<v Speaker 5>We wanted to kind of push you to see what

0:28:28.676 --> 0:28:31.076
<v Speaker 5>your limits are, and you do have limits, but you

0:28:31.156 --> 0:28:33.116
<v Speaker 5>were really you were really quite good.

0:28:34.156 --> 0:28:38.196
<v Speaker 2>Getting my suspicions confirmed was so gratifying. It was cool

0:28:38.196 --> 0:28:41.076
<v Speaker 2>to know that I have this superpower. Less than two

0:28:41.116 --> 0:28:43.796
<v Speaker 2>percent of people can say the same. I had to

0:28:43.796 --> 0:28:44.996
<v Speaker 2>share all this with Malcolm.

0:28:45.436 --> 0:28:48.876
<v Speaker 1>You're like the Lebron James of facial recognition.

0:28:49.396 --> 0:28:51.156
<v Speaker 2>He did say it was a complete package. So I

0:28:51.196 --> 0:28:53.116
<v Speaker 2>will also take Lebron James if you want to call

0:28:53.196 --> 0:28:54.996
<v Speaker 2>me that, I'm not going to argue.

0:28:55.396 --> 0:28:59.076
<v Speaker 1>My experience of you is dramatically different than your experience

0:28:59.076 --> 0:29:03.676
<v Speaker 1>of me. I am forced to find alternate means of recognition.

0:29:04.356 --> 0:29:06.796
<v Speaker 1>What those of us who have impairment in this area

0:29:06.916 --> 0:29:11.076
<v Speaker 1>do is we're we get obsessed with all the other

0:29:11.596 --> 0:29:15.836
<v Speaker 1>possible cues that we can use to identify somebody, and

0:29:16.236 --> 0:29:18.116
<v Speaker 1>because they're not as reliable as the face where I

0:29:18.236 --> 0:29:19.036
<v Speaker 1>was getting into trouble.

0:29:19.276 --> 0:29:21.876
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, exactly. This is what JJ Good, the guy from

0:29:21.876 --> 0:29:24.116
<v Speaker 2>the coffee shop, told me that he tries to do too.

0:29:24.636 --> 0:29:31.036
<v Speaker 4>That's Caitlin at the beautiful chin. This is Daniel Lias

0:29:31.116 --> 0:29:32.996
<v Speaker 4>bald Head. That's I remember him, small.

0:29:32.796 --> 0:29:35.516
<v Speaker 2>Bald So a couple of months ago I spent the

0:29:35.556 --> 0:29:38.036
<v Speaker 2>morning with him at the coffee shop and he was

0:29:38.076 --> 0:29:40.636
<v Speaker 2>going around introducing me to all his friends and telling

0:29:40.716 --> 0:29:43.156
<v Speaker 2>me how he tries to identify them. Here other she is.

0:29:44.276 --> 0:29:46.196
<v Speaker 4>This took me a while to recognize her, but she's

0:29:46.196 --> 0:29:49.716
<v Speaker 4>got like redistinct glasses, which is useful, but she's been

0:29:49.836 --> 0:29:53.596
<v Speaker 4>talking about changing her glasses, so I'm worried about that.

0:29:54.516 --> 0:29:56.596
<v Speaker 2>So he told me that he tries really hard to

0:29:56.716 --> 0:29:59.236
<v Speaker 2>find these cues, but you know, it's it's still hard

0:29:59.276 --> 0:30:01.396
<v Speaker 2>for him, and he never wants a repeat of the

0:30:01.476 --> 0:30:05.276
<v Speaker 2>Missy incident. So his solution is to just treat every

0:30:05.316 --> 0:30:07.716
<v Speaker 2>person that walks in as if they are his friend.

0:30:08.396 --> 0:30:10.396
<v Speaker 4>Everybody who come in the door, I stare them down

0:30:10.436 --> 0:30:12.276
<v Speaker 4>because I'm like, I hope I have to see if

0:30:12.316 --> 0:30:14.356
<v Speaker 4>I recognize you and know you're not. So I'm staring

0:30:14.396 --> 0:30:16.876
<v Speaker 4>at them and they look at me and they're like hi,

0:30:17.116 --> 0:30:19.756
<v Speaker 4>and I'm like hi, just in case I know them,

0:30:19.836 --> 0:30:21.036
<v Speaker 4>and they're like Lollo, guys friendly.

0:30:21.636 --> 0:30:24.236
<v Speaker 2>And that morning I was there, JJ was surrounded by

0:30:24.316 --> 0:30:26.436
<v Speaker 2>people like you think he was the mayor or the

0:30:26.476 --> 0:30:28.556
<v Speaker 2>owner of this place. I was like, did you tell

0:30:28.596 --> 0:30:30.276
<v Speaker 2>all these people to show up because you knew I

0:30:30.396 --> 0:30:33.076
<v Speaker 2>was coming? And he was like nope. So he really

0:30:33.276 --> 0:30:36.116
<v Speaker 2>has made all these friends, even in spite of the

0:30:36.156 --> 0:30:38.556
<v Speaker 2>face fline this thing. And I just think that's such

0:30:38.596 --> 0:30:39.516
<v Speaker 2>a lovely way to live.

0:30:39.676 --> 0:30:41.156
<v Speaker 1>That is really beautiful.

0:30:42.836 --> 0:30:45.596
<v Speaker 2>JJ and Missy are great friends now despite the incident.

0:30:46.156 --> 0:30:48.276
<v Speaker 2>You can find them working and chatting at the coffee

0:30:48.276 --> 0:30:50.676
<v Speaker 2>shop most days. They got dinner every once in a while,

0:30:50.756 --> 0:30:53.756
<v Speaker 2>and their spouses and kids have become friends too. But

0:30:54.596 --> 0:30:57.036
<v Speaker 2>their story could have ended very differently.

0:30:57.516 --> 0:31:00.156
<v Speaker 4>Like our friendship almost ended over this, and it's this

0:31:00.276 --> 0:31:03.476
<v Speaker 4>is my nightmare. So this person felt so bad because

0:31:03.756 --> 0:31:07.676
<v Speaker 4>I was not giving her the right attention, that she

0:31:08.316 --> 0:31:10.236
<v Speaker 4>had a whole like crisis, Like what did I do?

0:31:10.316 --> 0:31:13.436
<v Speaker 4>I feel so bad and that's why I'm so weird

0:31:13.516 --> 0:31:14.196
<v Speaker 4>and extra friendly.

0:31:15.276 --> 0:31:18.556
<v Speaker 2>We've all had these experiences where we don't recognize someone

0:31:18.636 --> 0:31:21.836
<v Speaker 2>right away, or someone doesn't recognize us. It can be

0:31:21.916 --> 0:31:25.796
<v Speaker 2>embarrassing and awkward. But the split second assumptions that we

0:31:25.916 --> 0:31:29.636
<v Speaker 2>make about why, that they're aloof or that we said

0:31:29.676 --> 0:31:33.156
<v Speaker 2>something that offended them, or that maybe we just aren't

0:31:33.196 --> 0:31:39.276
<v Speaker 2>memorable might be wrong. Faces matter, but it all comes

0:31:39.356 --> 0:31:41.036
<v Speaker 2>back to what's in our heads.

0:31:42.596 --> 0:31:46.436
<v Speaker 1>Lucy, that is you are Lucy right.

0:31:46.556 --> 0:31:49.476
<v Speaker 2>Yes, I change my shirt, but it's still me.

0:31:51.236 --> 0:31:52.236
<v Speaker 1>This has been a lot of fun.

0:31:52.436 --> 0:31:59.396
<v Speaker 2>This has been great, Thanks Malcolm. Provisionist History is produced

0:31:59.476 --> 0:32:03.836
<v Speaker 2>by me Lucy Sullivan with Bennattapaffrey and Nina Bird Lawrence.

0:32:04.596 --> 0:32:08.316
<v Speaker 2>Our editor is Karen Chakerjee. Fact checking by Kate Ferbey,

0:32:08.716 --> 0:32:12.756
<v Speaker 2>original scoring by Luis Gara, Scoring, mixing and mastering on

0:32:12.836 --> 0:32:17.156
<v Speaker 2>this episode by Echo Mountain. Production support from Luke Lamond.

0:32:17.956 --> 0:32:22.196
<v Speaker 2>Our executive producer is Jacob Smith. Special thanks to Daphne Chen,

0:32:22.636 --> 0:32:26.396
<v Speaker 2>Sarah Nix, and Gretacone, as well as the many people

0:32:26.476 --> 0:32:28.556
<v Speaker 2>who share their time and expertise with me for this

0:32:28.636 --> 0:32:36.396
<v Speaker 2>episode Brad Dushane, Bruno Rossian, Sarah Bate, Erica long Haather Sellers,

0:32:36.836 --> 0:32:42.156
<v Speaker 2>Flexi Malkin, Vivik Rao, and Chris Cochrane. If you suspect

0:32:42.236 --> 0:32:44.836
<v Speaker 2>you might have a problem recognizing faces and you want

0:32:44.876 --> 0:32:47.036
<v Speaker 2>to get involved with the research they're doing at doctor

0:32:47.116 --> 0:32:51.156
<v Speaker 2>Joe Dugutis's lab, go to faceblind dot org. And if

0:32:51.196 --> 0:32:54.516
<v Speaker 2>you're curious about your own facial recognition abilities, visit our

0:32:54.516 --> 0:32:56.876
<v Speaker 2>show notes and take the tests we have linked there.

0:32:57.636 --> 0:32:58.636
<v Speaker 2>I'm Lucy Sullivan.

0:33:03.436 --> 0:33:07.636
<v Speaker 1>Don't forget Listen to Fiasco Auron Contra for the story

0:33:07.716 --> 0:33:11.436
<v Speaker 1>of a not so secret scandal that captivated the United States.

0:33:11.956 --> 0:33:14.876
<v Speaker 1>Fiasco is available where you're listening right now.