1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:20,636 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Before we get to this episode, I want to 2 00:00:20,676 --> 00:00:25,396 Speaker 1: recommend another podcast for you. Fiasco Aron Contra is another 3 00:00:25,436 --> 00:00:29,956 Speaker 1: Pushkin podcast by the co creator of Slowburn, Leon Nafok. 4 00:00:30,316 --> 00:00:32,516 Speaker 1: You'll learn how Ronald Reagan found himself in the middle 5 00:00:32,516 --> 00:00:34,756 Speaker 1: of a scandal that looked like it just might take 6 00:00:34,796 --> 00:00:39,796 Speaker 1: down his presidency. Fiasco Urn Contra is available wherever you 7 00:00:39,836 --> 00:00:46,076 Speaker 1: get your podcasts. Don't miss it. Hello, Hello, Malcolm Glabell. 8 00:00:46,156 --> 00:00:51,596 Speaker 1: Here today. I'm in the studio with my producer Lucy Sullivan. Lucy, Hi, Malcolm. 9 00:00:52,036 --> 00:00:54,316 Speaker 1: I understand you have a story for me about a 10 00:00:54,316 --> 00:00:56,556 Speaker 1: particular misunderstanding. 11 00:00:56,396 --> 00:00:58,236 Speaker 2: That is true. We're here because I want to tell 12 00:00:58,236 --> 00:01:02,436 Speaker 2: you about something I'm calling the Missy incident. It totally 13 00:01:02,556 --> 00:01:05,836 Speaker 2: changed the way that I think about something foundational, and 14 00:01:05,876 --> 00:01:07,196 Speaker 2: it also reminded me of you. 15 00:01:07,396 --> 00:01:08,276 Speaker 1: Of me, of you. 16 00:01:08,476 --> 00:01:13,996 Speaker 2: Oh God, Okay, So it all happened at the coffee 17 00:01:13,996 --> 00:01:15,516 Speaker 2: shop that I go to all the time. 18 00:01:15,836 --> 00:01:17,876 Speaker 1: Can you tell me what the name of the coffee shop. 19 00:01:17,716 --> 00:01:19,676 Speaker 2: Is, Malcolm. I can tell you the name of the 20 00:01:19,676 --> 00:01:23,316 Speaker 2: coffee shop off Mike, but my fellow cafe goers did 21 00:01:23,356 --> 00:01:26,156 Speaker 2: not want me to name it on this podcast because 22 00:01:26,516 --> 00:01:27,276 Speaker 2: it's that good. 23 00:01:27,556 --> 00:01:28,356 Speaker 1: Oh it's that good. 24 00:01:28,516 --> 00:01:30,396 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so good. And it's the kind of place 25 00:01:30,436 --> 00:01:33,436 Speaker 2: that's always packed, so you have to be comfortable sitting 26 00:01:33,436 --> 00:01:35,036 Speaker 2: with a stranger if you want to get a seat. 27 00:01:35,596 --> 00:01:38,716 Speaker 2: And that's where this all starts. So the person at 28 00:01:38,716 --> 00:01:42,196 Speaker 2: the center of this, her name is Missy Kurzweil. She 29 00:01:42,396 --> 00:01:44,956 Speaker 2: was fresh off of maternity leave with her second kid 30 00:01:45,236 --> 00:01:46,356 Speaker 2: when the incident happened. 31 00:01:46,796 --> 00:01:48,436 Speaker 3: I think one of the things that happens when you 32 00:01:48,476 --> 00:01:50,316 Speaker 3: have a baby and her own maternity leave is like 33 00:01:50,356 --> 00:01:53,556 Speaker 3: you lose a bit of your identity and yourself. You're 34 00:01:53,596 --> 00:01:55,796 Speaker 3: spending all your time with a newborn who can't talk 35 00:01:55,836 --> 00:01:57,836 Speaker 3: back to you, and so I was sort of just 36 00:01:58,356 --> 00:02:02,516 Speaker 3: navigating that transition and wanting human interaction. 37 00:02:03,436 --> 00:02:05,676 Speaker 2: So Missy is looking for a place to work outside 38 00:02:05,676 --> 00:02:07,956 Speaker 2: of her home office and she finds the coffee shop 39 00:02:08,116 --> 00:02:10,116 Speaker 2: on her third morning of feeling out this place is 40 00:02:10,396 --> 00:02:13,276 Speaker 2: this where she wants to set up camp for her HQ. 41 00:02:14,036 --> 00:02:16,196 Speaker 2: She sits down at this table and in walks this 42 00:02:16,236 --> 00:02:17,956 Speaker 2: guy and he's like, hey, you mind if I sit here? 43 00:02:17,996 --> 00:02:19,916 Speaker 2: She says, sure, This is JJ good. 44 00:02:20,036 --> 00:02:24,156 Speaker 1: So JJ and Missy is sitting down together. What happens Missy? 45 00:02:24,196 --> 00:02:26,436 Speaker 2: Some of them with their kid's pediatrician and JJ is 46 00:02:26,436 --> 00:02:30,116 Speaker 2: sitting there eavesdropping, and you know, the doctor asked for 47 00:02:30,156 --> 00:02:32,996 Speaker 2: what's the patient's name, and Missy says, oh, his name's Remy. 48 00:02:33,276 --> 00:02:35,836 Speaker 3: And JJ freaked out because he was like, you have 49 00:02:35,836 --> 00:02:38,036 Speaker 3: a Remy, because I have a Remy. And then of 50 00:02:38,076 --> 00:02:39,956 Speaker 3: course like that, then we were off to the races. 51 00:02:40,516 --> 00:02:43,716 Speaker 2: Turns out they both have cats named Sonny. They both 52 00:02:43,916 --> 00:02:47,876 Speaker 2: are freelancers. He's a cookbook writer, she's also a writer. 53 00:02:48,396 --> 00:02:50,596 Speaker 3: So for me, it was like, on many levels, was 54 00:02:50,636 --> 00:02:54,196 Speaker 3: just really kind of a special bond instantly. 55 00:02:54,756 --> 00:02:56,236 Speaker 2: And I don't know if this is normal for you, 56 00:02:56,276 --> 00:02:57,876 Speaker 2: but like I don't usually I'm not usually chatting it 57 00:02:57,956 --> 00:03:00,196 Speaker 2: up with people at the coffee shop. 58 00:02:59,996 --> 00:03:03,076 Speaker 1: But these two and there's nothing romantic going on here. 59 00:03:03,116 --> 00:03:07,516 Speaker 2: Nothing romantic, yeah, strictly friends who are just like, wow, 60 00:03:07,556 --> 00:03:08,556 Speaker 2: we have so much in common. 61 00:03:08,876 --> 00:03:11,476 Speaker 3: I think, no matter where you're at in your life, 62 00:03:11,516 --> 00:03:15,356 Speaker 3: meeting someone like JJ feels unusual because he's just so 63 00:03:15,676 --> 00:03:20,836 Speaker 3: open and so seemingly genuinely interested in what you have 64 00:03:20,916 --> 00:03:23,636 Speaker 3: to say and what are all these details about your life? 65 00:03:24,156 --> 00:03:26,796 Speaker 2: So Missy is excited. She goes home and she tells 66 00:03:26,836 --> 00:03:29,116 Speaker 2: her husband, Oh my gosh, I've met this great friend 67 00:03:29,156 --> 00:03:31,076 Speaker 2: and I found this great coffee shop to work like 68 00:03:31,156 --> 00:03:33,916 Speaker 2: things couldn't be better. And so for the next few days, 69 00:03:33,956 --> 00:03:37,716 Speaker 2: Missy and JJ sit together, work together crucially, always at 70 00:03:37,756 --> 00:03:41,036 Speaker 2: the same spot in the front. But one day she 71 00:03:41,076 --> 00:03:44,276 Speaker 2: comes in and their usual table is taken, so she 72 00:03:44,476 --> 00:03:45,676 Speaker 2: just heads to a different one. 73 00:03:45,556 --> 00:03:48,836 Speaker 3: In the back, And maybe an hour after I sat down, 74 00:03:49,636 --> 00:03:52,396 Speaker 3: I see JJ kind of walk to the back and 75 00:03:52,436 --> 00:03:55,916 Speaker 3: he's looking around seemingly for a table, and we make 76 00:03:55,996 --> 00:03:59,876 Speaker 3: direct eye contact and I start to say, hey, JJ, 77 00:04:01,156 --> 00:04:04,236 Speaker 3: but he looks at me and sort of kind of 78 00:04:04,276 --> 00:04:07,436 Speaker 3: registers it and turns around and walks the other way. 79 00:04:08,076 --> 00:04:08,956 Speaker 1: Her ghosts her. 80 00:04:09,196 --> 00:04:12,076 Speaker 2: Ghost like completely like she was like, we made eye contact. 81 00:04:12,156 --> 00:04:13,516 Speaker 2: I was like, maybe he didn't see me, but no, 82 00:04:13,956 --> 00:04:16,196 Speaker 2: he saw me. Our eyes locked. I went to wave. 83 00:04:16,476 --> 00:04:20,076 Speaker 2: He turned around. So now Missus's like, what is going 84 00:04:20,116 --> 00:04:22,996 Speaker 2: on here? Like she had just met his wife a 85 00:04:23,036 --> 00:04:25,236 Speaker 2: couple of days before, and she's like, maybe the wife 86 00:04:25,276 --> 00:04:28,996 Speaker 2: wasn't comfortable with like, or maybe she's thinking something's going on. 87 00:04:30,676 --> 00:04:33,316 Speaker 2: Maybe I said something weird to him, like she's really 88 00:04:33,356 --> 00:04:34,156 Speaker 2: like spinning her. 89 00:04:35,596 --> 00:04:38,516 Speaker 3: And I went back the next day, sat in the back, 90 00:04:38,676 --> 00:04:41,676 Speaker 3: and the same thing happened where he walks by sort 91 00:04:41,716 --> 00:04:45,876 Speaker 3: of sees me seemingly like we make eye contact. And 92 00:04:45,916 --> 00:04:47,596 Speaker 3: this time I think I probably was a little bit 93 00:04:47,636 --> 00:04:51,196 Speaker 3: more reserved because of what had happened the day before. 94 00:04:51,716 --> 00:04:53,676 Speaker 3: And he turns around and walks the other way again, 95 00:04:54,156 --> 00:04:56,116 Speaker 3: and now I'm like, Okay, I think I might have 96 00:04:56,156 --> 00:05:00,756 Speaker 3: said something that offended him. 97 00:05:00,996 --> 00:05:04,156 Speaker 1: My name is Malcolm Gobwell. You're listening to Revisionist History, 98 00:05:04,316 --> 00:05:08,516 Speaker 1: my podcast about things overlooked and misunderstood. And since we're 99 00:05:08,556 --> 00:05:11,996 Speaker 1: talking about misunderstandings, whatever you think is going on in 100 00:05:11,996 --> 00:05:15,796 Speaker 1: this story right now, I promise you you've got it wrong. 101 00:05:25,476 --> 00:05:28,636 Speaker 2: So Missy is obviously super bummed about this, you know, 102 00:05:28,676 --> 00:05:30,196 Speaker 2: I mean, listen, I've been with my husband for a 103 00:05:30,236 --> 00:05:32,676 Speaker 2: long time, so i haven't been like on the dating scene, 104 00:05:32,756 --> 00:05:34,036 Speaker 2: but it definitely. 105 00:05:33,596 --> 00:05:37,196 Speaker 3: Had an equivalent like you put yourself out there and 106 00:05:37,276 --> 00:05:40,716 Speaker 3: you like, are you know, think that you're connecting with 107 00:05:40,796 --> 00:05:43,116 Speaker 3: someone but they're not experiencing that same thing. 108 00:05:43,716 --> 00:05:45,796 Speaker 2: She considered trying to find a new place to work, 109 00:05:45,916 --> 00:05:48,116 Speaker 2: but like I said, the coffee shop is just too good, 110 00:05:48,476 --> 00:05:50,436 Speaker 2: and so after a few days she decides, you know what, 111 00:05:50,476 --> 00:05:52,516 Speaker 2: I'm just gonna go back. I'm going to ignore the weirdness, 112 00:05:53,036 --> 00:05:56,036 Speaker 2: and this time their usual spot in the front is open, 113 00:05:56,476 --> 00:06:00,316 Speaker 2: so she sits down and then right on cue, JJ walks. 114 00:06:00,156 --> 00:06:03,156 Speaker 3: In and he sees me and his face lights up 115 00:06:03,396 --> 00:06:05,476 Speaker 3: and he's like, Missy, you haven't been here in like 116 00:06:05,516 --> 00:06:07,996 Speaker 3: a week or two, I've missed you. Where have you been? 117 00:06:08,556 --> 00:06:10,476 Speaker 3: And then he said it down and he's chit chatting 118 00:06:10,476 --> 00:06:13,676 Speaker 3: and he's catching up and he's asking questions just like nothing, 119 00:06:13,996 --> 00:06:14,596 Speaker 3: no time. 120 00:06:14,436 --> 00:06:18,036 Speaker 2: Passed, like nothing happened, like absolutely nothing happened. 121 00:06:18,116 --> 00:06:22,756 Speaker 3: Yeah, And I was so confused. I did not know 122 00:06:22,756 --> 00:06:24,596 Speaker 3: what to make of that, but I was kind of 123 00:06:24,636 --> 00:06:27,876 Speaker 3: just relieved that the freeze out was over, and so 124 00:06:27,956 --> 00:06:30,316 Speaker 3: I just went with it and was like, oh, you know, 125 00:06:30,956 --> 00:06:32,916 Speaker 3: good to see you again. And I just sort of 126 00:06:32,996 --> 00:06:35,156 Speaker 3: picked up where we left off and I didn't say anything. 127 00:06:35,636 --> 00:06:39,036 Speaker 2: And it wasn't too long after that that she discovered 128 00:06:39,236 --> 00:06:41,556 Speaker 2: what was really going on and why it seemed like 129 00:06:42,076 --> 00:06:44,316 Speaker 2: this new friend was just totally ignoring her. 130 00:06:44,556 --> 00:06:47,436 Speaker 3: I'm sitting at a table with JJ and a woman 131 00:06:47,476 --> 00:06:51,836 Speaker 3: walks in, super friendly, comes over to JJ and says, hey, JJ, 132 00:06:52,116 --> 00:06:54,796 Speaker 3: and I think goes to give him a hug and 133 00:06:55,556 --> 00:06:59,996 Speaker 3: asks him questions about how his kids are. Their conversation 134 00:07:00,156 --> 00:07:02,196 Speaker 3: lasts just a few minutes, and then she walks away 135 00:07:02,196 --> 00:07:04,196 Speaker 3: to get a coffee and he looks at me and 136 00:07:04,196 --> 00:07:06,516 Speaker 3: he goes, I don't know who that is. And I 137 00:07:06,556 --> 00:07:09,076 Speaker 3: was like, what, you seemed like you were friends with her, 138 00:07:09,476 --> 00:07:12,396 Speaker 3: and he was like, I have this face blindness thing. 139 00:07:13,316 --> 00:07:15,276 Speaker 3: It gives me a lot of anxiety because I'm probably 140 00:07:15,316 --> 00:07:17,436 Speaker 3: supposed to know her. And then I think I paused, 141 00:07:17,436 --> 00:07:19,556 Speaker 3: and I said something like, is that why you broke 142 00:07:19,636 --> 00:07:20,676 Speaker 3: up with me six months ago? 143 00:07:24,676 --> 00:07:27,156 Speaker 2: And this is the part that made me think of you, Malcolm, 144 00:07:27,196 --> 00:07:30,956 Speaker 2: face blindness, because I've heard that you also might be 145 00:07:30,996 --> 00:07:32,276 Speaker 2: a little face blind yourself. 146 00:07:32,956 --> 00:07:37,156 Speaker 1: Yes, yes, that's true. This happens to me all the time. 147 00:07:37,716 --> 00:07:40,716 Speaker 1: I won't remember if I need to expose to face 148 00:07:41,396 --> 00:07:45,676 Speaker 1: a person on multiple occasions before their face becomes meaningful, 149 00:07:45,756 --> 00:07:48,876 Speaker 1: or even there, I don't know whether their face is 150 00:07:48,916 --> 00:07:52,156 Speaker 1: becoming meaningful, or that I am developing so many other 151 00:07:52,196 --> 00:07:58,276 Speaker 1: ways of recognizing them that I feel unsafer ground hm hm. 152 00:07:58,076 --> 00:08:00,796 Speaker 2: Like you're not just gonna remember someone that you've met 153 00:08:00,996 --> 00:08:02,676 Speaker 2: once or twice, no passing. 154 00:08:02,756 --> 00:08:05,796 Speaker 1: No, there's no chance that I will. I had a sash. 155 00:08:05,796 --> 00:08:07,996 Speaker 1: She's funny because I was sitting in my favorite coffee 156 00:08:07,996 --> 00:08:12,436 Speaker 1: shop and I see there's a guy who runs the 157 00:08:12,556 --> 00:08:16,436 Speaker 1: wine shop across the street. His name is Michael. I 158 00:08:16,516 --> 00:08:20,196 Speaker 1: know Michael for years. And I see Michael, or I 159 00:08:20,196 --> 00:08:22,956 Speaker 1: think it's Michael, and I see a slender man this fifties, 160 00:08:22,956 --> 00:08:25,876 Speaker 1: about five nine with glasses in a baseball cap across 161 00:08:25,916 --> 00:08:29,516 Speaker 1: the street from the wine shop, and I think, oh, 162 00:08:29,916 --> 00:08:32,996 Speaker 1: that's got to be Michael, and I go Michael, and 163 00:08:33,036 --> 00:08:35,396 Speaker 1: the guy looks me like really weird, and it comes over 164 00:08:35,716 --> 00:08:37,916 Speaker 1: and it was like my nightmare is like, oh my god, No, 165 00:08:38,076 --> 00:08:40,476 Speaker 1: it's not. It's just another dude who's in town who 166 00:08:40,396 --> 00:08:43,476 Speaker 1: looks a lot like Michael. But that was my system failed. 167 00:08:44,596 --> 00:08:47,356 Speaker 1: It's very rare for me to risk it like that, 168 00:08:47,876 --> 00:08:50,756 Speaker 1: but I risked it because I thought if Michael thinks 169 00:08:50,916 --> 00:08:55,396 Speaker 1: I had the reverse JJ, if Michael thinks I'm ignoring him, 170 00:08:55,996 --> 00:08:57,796 Speaker 1: then that's really bad. Because I go to the wine 171 00:08:57,796 --> 00:08:59,196 Speaker 1: shop all the time, and I like Michael. 172 00:08:59,316 --> 00:09:02,276 Speaker 2: See it's interesting because this like this never happens to me, 173 00:09:02,396 --> 00:09:04,196 Speaker 2: Like I'm often on the other side of it being 174 00:09:04,276 --> 00:09:07,116 Speaker 2: like all right, I'm just gonna pretend like I don't. 175 00:09:07,276 --> 00:09:10,316 Speaker 2: I always remember, I always remember. I always remember people 176 00:09:10,316 --> 00:09:13,316 Speaker 2: who are completely insignificant to me, like not in any 177 00:09:13,356 --> 00:09:15,396 Speaker 2: sort of like value judderent way. It's just like, oh, 178 00:09:15,476 --> 00:09:18,956 Speaker 2: I met you once at my friend's friends party four 179 00:09:19,036 --> 00:09:21,436 Speaker 2: years ago, and now you are standing next to me 180 00:09:21,596 --> 00:09:22,356 Speaker 2: in line. 181 00:09:22,156 --> 00:09:24,676 Speaker 1: At target, so completely foreign. 182 00:09:25,356 --> 00:09:27,396 Speaker 2: Yeah, and this is why I actually Malcolm, to be honest, 183 00:09:27,396 --> 00:09:29,036 Speaker 2: Like when I had first heard saying I heard from 184 00:09:29,036 --> 00:09:31,876 Speaker 2: someone in passing before we started working together, like, oh, Malcolm, 185 00:09:32,076 --> 00:09:34,156 Speaker 2: he's face blind. He has trouble recognizing people. And I 186 00:09:34,156 --> 00:09:37,876 Speaker 2: was like, okay, like yeah, he's face blind, like because 187 00:09:37,956 --> 00:09:41,716 Speaker 2: I was thinking, like, I've never forgotten I just don't 188 00:09:41,716 --> 00:09:43,916 Speaker 2: forget people's faces. So I was like, if I were 189 00:09:43,996 --> 00:09:45,716 Speaker 2: you and I was meeting a million people all the 190 00:09:45,756 --> 00:09:48,036 Speaker 2: time and people recognize me from book covers, that would 191 00:09:48,076 --> 00:09:49,916 Speaker 2: be kind of a disorienting experience, and it would be 192 00:09:49,956 --> 00:09:51,556 Speaker 2: kind of nice to have an excuse like, oh I 193 00:09:51,556 --> 00:09:53,476 Speaker 2: don't remember you because I'm like face blind or whatever. 194 00:09:53,796 --> 00:09:57,916 Speaker 2: But I just couldn't believe that that was true until 195 00:09:58,476 --> 00:09:59,356 Speaker 2: I heard the story. 196 00:09:59,516 --> 00:10:01,516 Speaker 1: Yeah, no, no, I do. And it makes me feel 197 00:10:01,556 --> 00:10:04,156 Speaker 1: bad because I were in it. I mean, I feel 198 00:10:04,196 --> 00:10:08,276 Speaker 1: for JJ because it's you in this constant state of 199 00:10:08,356 --> 00:10:12,196 Speaker 1: worry about it that you're going to be perceived as 200 00:10:12,316 --> 00:10:16,156 Speaker 1: cold or aloof and you're not. 201 00:10:16,556 --> 00:10:19,716 Speaker 2: Yeah, and so like this perception problem is exactly what 202 00:10:19,796 --> 00:10:23,156 Speaker 2: fascinates me about face blindness, which I've now spent way 203 00:10:23,196 --> 00:10:25,876 Speaker 2: too many hours learning about after hearing this story of 204 00:10:25,876 --> 00:10:29,076 Speaker 2: Missy and JJ, because I've always thought that being able 205 00:10:29,116 --> 00:10:32,436 Speaker 2: to recognize someone was about, you know, having a good 206 00:10:32,556 --> 00:10:35,596 Speaker 2: or a bad memory whatever that means, yeah, or just 207 00:10:35,796 --> 00:10:39,156 Speaker 2: frankly caring enough to remember them, like you worry that 208 00:10:39,196 --> 00:10:41,356 Speaker 2: you might be perceived as cold or aloof if you 209 00:10:41,356 --> 00:10:44,236 Speaker 2: don't had a Michael or Missy thought her new friend 210 00:10:44,316 --> 00:10:47,356 Speaker 2: was ignoring her. I seem to remember way more faces 211 00:10:47,356 --> 00:10:50,196 Speaker 2: than I want to. I really wanted to understand what's 212 00:10:50,356 --> 00:10:53,796 Speaker 2: actually going on in our brains when all this happens. 213 00:10:54,916 --> 00:10:58,836 Speaker 1: After the break, Lucy Sullivan takes us behind the face 214 00:10:59,636 --> 00:11:00,596 Speaker 1: and into the brain. 215 00:11:11,716 --> 00:11:14,756 Speaker 2: JJ Good, Missy's friend from the coffee shop, doesn't know 216 00:11:14,796 --> 00:11:17,756 Speaker 2: exactly when he realized he had a problem with faces. 217 00:11:18,196 --> 00:11:21,796 Speaker 2: He just kept having these strange experiences like this one 218 00:11:21,836 --> 00:11:23,636 Speaker 2: time when he ran into a woman on the train 219 00:11:24,116 --> 00:11:26,356 Speaker 2: and he knew he was supposed to know who she was, 220 00:11:26,876 --> 00:11:28,156 Speaker 2: but he had no idea. 221 00:11:28,796 --> 00:11:31,476 Speaker 4: And we had this conversation where I was like, how 222 00:11:32,236 --> 00:11:35,036 Speaker 4: is everything? Things are good with me? Like, I didn't 223 00:11:35,036 --> 00:11:37,156 Speaker 4: mention any there's no specifics because I wanted to make 224 00:11:37,396 --> 00:11:39,836 Speaker 4: like I didn't want it. If you walked in and 225 00:11:39,876 --> 00:11:44,796 Speaker 4: someone had no idea who were, you would feel bad 226 00:11:44,796 --> 00:11:45,476 Speaker 4: about yourself. 227 00:11:45,836 --> 00:11:48,596 Speaker 2: JJ said he also realized something was off when he'd 228 00:11:48,596 --> 00:11:52,316 Speaker 2: watch movies and TV shows. He'd sometimes completely miss a 229 00:11:52,356 --> 00:11:53,236 Speaker 2: big plot point. 230 00:11:53,516 --> 00:11:57,236 Speaker 4: When my wife and I were watching a show, I'll 231 00:11:57,276 --> 00:12:00,436 Speaker 4: be like, who's that guy? And she's like, it's the 232 00:12:00,476 --> 00:12:03,236 Speaker 4: main character. He just has a hat on, like it's 233 00:12:03,356 --> 00:12:07,236 Speaker 4: literally Robert de Niro from the other scene, and I 234 00:12:07,276 --> 00:12:09,196 Speaker 4: was like, ooh, this is kind of strange. 235 00:12:09,316 --> 00:12:12,476 Speaker 2: All of this has led to many awkward situations, and 236 00:12:12,516 --> 00:12:15,716 Speaker 2: it's made JJ very aware of other people's feelings. What 237 00:12:15,836 --> 00:12:17,716 Speaker 2: happened with Missy still haunts him. 238 00:12:18,076 --> 00:12:19,916 Speaker 4: I am afraid that I might have an interaction with 239 00:12:19,956 --> 00:12:22,396 Speaker 4: someone and I might not recognize them, and I might 240 00:12:22,436 --> 00:12:25,676 Speaker 4: not give them the attention that makes them feel good. 241 00:12:26,356 --> 00:12:29,276 Speaker 2: It's worth noting that JJ himself is easy to spot. 242 00:12:29,636 --> 00:12:30,956 Speaker 2: He was born with one arm. 243 00:12:31,596 --> 00:12:35,756 Speaker 4: Walking around with one arm, you are highly recognizable. It's like, 244 00:12:35,756 --> 00:12:38,356 Speaker 4: how many one armed people do you meet? Probably not 245 00:12:38,396 --> 00:12:41,396 Speaker 4: a lot. So everybody comes into the coffee shop and 246 00:12:41,836 --> 00:12:45,276 Speaker 4: if you see me, you probably will recognize me as 247 00:12:45,316 --> 00:12:47,436 Speaker 4: that guy from the coffee shop the next day. But 248 00:12:47,716 --> 00:12:51,516 Speaker 4: I don't recognize a lot of the people who come in. 249 00:12:51,556 --> 00:12:54,196 Speaker 2: A while back, JJ told some friends about these weird 250 00:12:54,236 --> 00:12:57,636 Speaker 2: moments he'd always had, not recognizing people, and they asked 251 00:12:57,676 --> 00:13:01,156 Speaker 2: if he'd ever heard of face blindness. They said, Oliver Sachs, 252 00:13:01,236 --> 00:13:03,876 Speaker 2: the science writer, had it too, and that's when it 253 00:13:03,876 --> 00:13:04,676 Speaker 2: clicked for JJ. 254 00:13:06,156 --> 00:13:07,956 Speaker 5: So it is a little bit of the stealth disort. 255 00:13:07,996 --> 00:13:10,076 Speaker 5: I mean, the people only to learn they have it 256 00:13:10,196 --> 00:13:13,956 Speaker 5: often when they are subjected to a whole bunch of 257 00:13:13,996 --> 00:13:14,956 Speaker 5: new people they have to meet. 258 00:13:15,516 --> 00:13:19,156 Speaker 2: This is doctor Joe Degudis. He's a cognitive neuroscientist and 259 00:13:19,196 --> 00:13:23,356 Speaker 2: he studies facial recognition to Gouda's teachers at Harvard Medical 260 00:13:23,396 --> 00:13:26,396 Speaker 2: School and runs a lab out of the Boston VA Hospital. 261 00:13:27,076 --> 00:13:29,916 Speaker 5: We've studied how people become aware that they have this, 262 00:13:30,596 --> 00:13:32,676 Speaker 5: and often it's a little rocky. It's a little bit 263 00:13:32,796 --> 00:13:35,636 Speaker 5: like you know in school, they're like, I just don't 264 00:13:35,676 --> 00:13:39,036 Speaker 5: pay attention, or I don't care as much about people, 265 00:13:39,756 --> 00:13:41,956 Speaker 5: or maybe I'm a little bit on the spectrum. They 266 00:13:41,996 --> 00:13:44,116 Speaker 5: have all these attributions they can give. 267 00:13:44,836 --> 00:13:47,396 Speaker 2: The thing about people who are quote unquote face blind 268 00:13:47,676 --> 00:13:50,996 Speaker 2: is that they're not actually blind. They're not seeing blurs 269 00:13:51,036 --> 00:13:54,956 Speaker 2: where people's faces are. They can see eyes, nose, mouth, ears, 270 00:13:55,036 --> 00:13:57,236 Speaker 2: and they can read emotions and tell whether or not 271 00:13:57,276 --> 00:13:59,956 Speaker 2: someone's attractive the same way we all do. The best 272 00:14:00,076 --> 00:14:02,596 Speaker 2: estimates I could find suggests that around three percent of 273 00:14:02,636 --> 00:14:06,676 Speaker 2: the population has some form of face blindness. Sometimes it's 274 00:14:06,676 --> 00:14:09,196 Speaker 2: the result of a traumatic brain injury, but some some 275 00:14:09,196 --> 00:14:12,156 Speaker 2: people are just born with it. Scientists think it could 276 00:14:12,156 --> 00:14:14,716 Speaker 2: be genetic or that the network in the brain that 277 00:14:14,756 --> 00:14:19,076 Speaker 2: recognizes faces just doesn't develop normally. But for most of us, 278 00:14:19,356 --> 00:14:22,036 Speaker 2: a face is the trigger that calls up all the 279 00:14:22,076 --> 00:14:23,516 Speaker 2: information we know about a person. 280 00:14:24,316 --> 00:14:27,836 Speaker 5: If you see somebody's face, it quickly triggers the retrieval 281 00:14:27,876 --> 00:14:30,236 Speaker 5: of all this other information about them, like you know 282 00:14:30,276 --> 00:14:32,316 Speaker 5: who they are, how you know them, all these other 283 00:14:32,396 --> 00:14:35,356 Speaker 5: details about the person. So it has this kind of 284 00:14:35,396 --> 00:14:39,516 Speaker 5: privileged role in terms of getting all this other information out. 285 00:14:42,356 --> 00:14:47,276 Speaker 2: The clinical term for face blindness is prosopagnosia. An Agnosia 286 00:14:47,356 --> 00:14:51,836 Speaker 2: is an inability to recognize something. Prosopagnosia uses the Greek 287 00:14:51,876 --> 00:14:55,836 Speaker 2: word for face prose obo, which also happens to be 288 00:14:55,876 --> 00:14:59,116 Speaker 2: the Greek word for person. So much of who we 289 00:14:59,156 --> 00:15:01,996 Speaker 2: are is wrapped up in this one part of our bodies. 290 00:15:02,436 --> 00:15:04,716 Speaker 2: I want you to stop for a second. Think about 291 00:15:04,756 --> 00:15:07,916 Speaker 2: your mom, or your best friend or your kid. You're 292 00:15:07,956 --> 00:15:11,116 Speaker 2: not picturing their elbow, are you? I mean, maybe you are. 293 00:15:11,196 --> 00:15:14,436 Speaker 2: Crazier things have happened. My point is, for most of us, 294 00:15:14,756 --> 00:15:18,476 Speaker 2: it's almost impossible to decouple who someone is from their face. 295 00:15:19,316 --> 00:15:22,316 Speaker 5: It's something that is also very special about humans. 296 00:15:22,956 --> 00:15:25,396 Speaker 2: This special thing that Do Goodas is talking about here 297 00:15:25,716 --> 00:15:28,876 Speaker 2: has to do with our brains. We have a specific 298 00:15:29,076 --> 00:15:33,636 Speaker 2: network that's just for recognizing faces, and it functions unlike 299 00:15:33,676 --> 00:15:34,956 Speaker 2: any other kind of cognition. 300 00:15:35,596 --> 00:15:38,556 Speaker 5: So when I recognize a chair, I'm like, oh, okay, 301 00:15:38,596 --> 00:15:40,956 Speaker 5: it has something to sit on, has some legs, and boom, 302 00:15:40,996 --> 00:15:44,476 Speaker 5: it's a chair. You're recognizing things at this functional level, 303 00:15:44,996 --> 00:15:48,036 Speaker 5: which is like, okay, how do I interact with this thing? 304 00:15:48,236 --> 00:15:50,596 Speaker 6: You know, usually you can do it part by part. 305 00:15:50,676 --> 00:15:52,156 Speaker 5: One of the things that we do with face is 306 00:15:52,196 --> 00:15:55,596 Speaker 5: more than any other, like visual object, is you process 307 00:15:55,676 --> 00:15:58,516 Speaker 5: it as a gestalt as a whole. Because we have 308 00:15:58,636 --> 00:16:00,996 Speaker 5: to kind of recognize them and not just like Okay, 309 00:16:01,036 --> 00:16:01,556 Speaker 5: that's a face. 310 00:16:01,596 --> 00:16:02,076 Speaker 1: That's a face. 311 00:16:02,076 --> 00:16:04,356 Speaker 5: We have to be like okay, that's my friend. Oh 312 00:16:04,436 --> 00:16:06,836 Speaker 5: that's not that's so moy, that's the person at work 313 00:16:06,876 --> 00:16:09,836 Speaker 5: who I need to avoid. And so it's like, I 314 00:16:09,916 --> 00:16:14,476 Speaker 5: think that the individuation demands of faces maybe are why 315 00:16:14,516 --> 00:16:17,796 Speaker 5: we kind of had this specialized system to process faces. 316 00:16:18,516 --> 00:16:22,436 Speaker 2: Frogs you sound, birds you smell, and we humans love 317 00:16:22,476 --> 00:16:25,436 Speaker 2: this one cluster of features sitting on top of our necks. 318 00:16:26,196 --> 00:16:29,676 Speaker 2: We are social animals, and researchers think that's part of 319 00:16:29,716 --> 00:16:33,036 Speaker 2: why humans developed this special recognition network in our brains, 320 00:16:33,596 --> 00:16:37,196 Speaker 2: because it served us. Faces have evolved to look really 321 00:16:37,236 --> 00:16:40,156 Speaker 2: different from person to person, more so than any other 322 00:16:40,196 --> 00:16:44,196 Speaker 2: body part. Scientists at UC Berkeley think that this had 323 00:16:44,236 --> 00:16:48,556 Speaker 2: an evolutionary purpose. It helped us socialize. Not only was 324 00:16:48,556 --> 00:16:52,076 Speaker 2: it beneficial to be recognizable, but also then to be 325 00:16:52,196 --> 00:16:55,996 Speaker 2: able to recognize others. Humans had to get really good 326 00:16:56,076 --> 00:16:59,596 Speaker 2: at differentiating friend from foe, and we did get really 327 00:16:59,596 --> 00:17:05,076 Speaker 2: good at it, well most of us anyways. Degodas told 328 00:17:05,076 --> 00:17:08,556 Speaker 2: me that the ability to recognize faces is a spectrum. 329 00:17:09,116 --> 00:17:10,796 Speaker 5: These are all these kind of internal things that we 330 00:17:10,876 --> 00:17:14,756 Speaker 5: don't talk about, and we just assume that everybody's kind 331 00:17:14,756 --> 00:17:16,956 Speaker 5: of like us, right, and after. 332 00:17:16,756 --> 00:17:19,076 Speaker 2: The break, we're going to the other end of that 333 00:17:19,116 --> 00:17:21,996 Speaker 2: spectrum to see what it's like for the people who 334 00:17:22,156 --> 00:17:40,476 Speaker 2: never forget a face, the super recognizers. One morning back 335 00:17:40,476 --> 00:17:43,476 Speaker 2: in nineteen eighty four, a little kid named Frank Vaughn 336 00:17:43,636 --> 00:17:46,236 Speaker 2: was about to have a very exciting day of school. 337 00:17:47,036 --> 00:17:49,596 Speaker 6: I was nine years old and my fourth grade class 338 00:17:49,716 --> 00:17:52,756 Speaker 6: was invited on a school field trip to the Governor's 339 00:17:52,756 --> 00:17:53,876 Speaker 6: office in Little Rock. 340 00:17:54,516 --> 00:17:56,876 Speaker 2: That's Governor Bill Clinton's office, to be exact. 341 00:17:57,436 --> 00:18:00,116 Speaker 6: They arranged just all in a semi circle in cross 342 00:18:00,196 --> 00:18:03,156 Speaker 6: leg style and we waited for the man to show up, 343 00:18:03,236 --> 00:18:06,876 Speaker 6: and typical of politicians, he was around fifteen minutes late. 344 00:18:07,556 --> 00:18:10,316 Speaker 6: He walks out, he sits down, and he immediately turns 345 00:18:10,356 --> 00:18:12,196 Speaker 6: and he snaps his fingers and points at one of 346 00:18:12,196 --> 00:18:14,996 Speaker 6: his female staffers and said, you go get my pepsi, 347 00:18:15,716 --> 00:18:17,676 Speaker 6: and she took off on a dead run for his 348 00:18:17,836 --> 00:18:19,636 Speaker 6: inner office to go grab that pepsi. 349 00:18:20,036 --> 00:18:22,916 Speaker 2: Frank was a scrawny nine year old boy with feathery 350 00:18:22,956 --> 00:18:25,836 Speaker 2: blonde hair that grew out in all directions. Nerdy kid, 351 00:18:25,916 --> 00:18:28,916 Speaker 2: always cracking jokes for attention. Frank said that he and 352 00:18:28,956 --> 00:18:31,716 Speaker 2: his classmates were so excited about meeting the governor. 353 00:18:32,316 --> 00:18:35,076 Speaker 6: There was this almost throne like velvet chair sitting in 354 00:18:35,116 --> 00:18:37,276 Speaker 6: the middle of the room, and he sits down in it, 355 00:18:37,316 --> 00:18:39,756 Speaker 6: and he crosses his legs and he, you know, just 356 00:18:39,796 --> 00:18:41,196 Speaker 6: sort of gets himself arranged. 357 00:18:41,716 --> 00:18:44,556 Speaker 2: Frank Krumember's feeling in awe of this man sitting on 358 00:18:44,596 --> 00:18:48,076 Speaker 2: a throne barking out pepsi orders, he said. The governor 359 00:18:48,116 --> 00:18:51,196 Speaker 2: greeted them all and started asking them questions, and then 360 00:18:51,556 --> 00:18:53,276 Speaker 2: Clinton zeroed in on Frank. 361 00:18:54,116 --> 00:18:55,556 Speaker 6: I don't know if I just have one of those 362 00:18:55,556 --> 00:18:58,396 Speaker 6: faces or what, but for some reason, he settled on me, 363 00:18:58,596 --> 00:19:00,116 Speaker 6: and he pointed at me and he said, you, what 364 00:19:00,156 --> 00:19:02,076 Speaker 6: do you want to be when you grow up? And 365 00:19:02,156 --> 00:19:05,156 Speaker 6: after witnessing everything I had just seen, the only answer 366 00:19:05,196 --> 00:19:06,916 Speaker 6: I could come up with was I want to be you. 367 00:19:07,716 --> 00:19:11,316 Speaker 2: Frank said that his teacher horrified at this response. He 368 00:19:11,356 --> 00:19:12,876 Speaker 2: thought he was about to get in trouble like he 369 00:19:12,956 --> 00:19:14,636 Speaker 2: usually did for cracking jokes. 370 00:19:14,876 --> 00:19:17,716 Speaker 6: And then the governor started laughing, and of course when 371 00:19:17,756 --> 00:19:21,276 Speaker 6: he starts laughing, his staff joins in and we all 372 00:19:21,396 --> 00:19:23,996 Speaker 6: joined in, and it sort of released all the tension 373 00:19:24,036 --> 00:19:24,476 Speaker 6: in the room. 374 00:19:24,956 --> 00:19:27,876 Speaker 2: Clinton moved on from Frank asked some other kids questions. 375 00:19:28,236 --> 00:19:31,036 Speaker 2: He lectured them about the importance of eating their vegetables 376 00:19:31,036 --> 00:19:33,396 Speaker 2: and doing their homework, and then he sent the class 377 00:19:33,476 --> 00:19:38,996 Speaker 2: on their way. That was that. Okay, So now we're 378 00:19:38,996 --> 00:19:42,436 Speaker 2: going to fast forward thirteen years later. March of nineteen 379 00:19:42,476 --> 00:19:45,476 Speaker 2: ninety seven. Clinton is just a few months into his 380 00:19:45,556 --> 00:19:48,236 Speaker 2: second term as president and back in his home state 381 00:19:48,276 --> 00:19:51,556 Speaker 2: of Arkansas. A series of tornadoes have just destroyed the 382 00:19:51,556 --> 00:19:55,876 Speaker 2: town of Arkadelphia. Twenty five people were killed, dozens were injured, 383 00:19:56,156 --> 00:19:59,076 Speaker 2: twelve hundred buildings were leveled. It was a huge disaster. 384 00:19:59,996 --> 00:20:03,276 Speaker 2: Governor Mike Huckabee declares the state of emergency FEMA is 385 00:20:03,316 --> 00:20:06,436 Speaker 2: called in and a few days after the storm settles 386 00:20:06,476 --> 00:20:10,396 Speaker 2: and the rebuilding has started, President Clinton visits Arkadelphia. 387 00:20:10,916 --> 00:20:12,436 Speaker 6: It's obviously you all have done a lot of work 388 00:20:12,436 --> 00:20:12,756 Speaker 6: here in. 389 00:20:12,676 --> 00:20:17,636 Speaker 2: Just a couple of days. Everybody is really Frank Vaughn 390 00:20:17,796 --> 00:20:20,596 Speaker 2: is no longer a little boy. He's a six foot 391 00:20:20,636 --> 00:20:25,116 Speaker 2: one college student attending Wachetah Baptist University in Arkadelphia. That 392 00:20:25,196 --> 00:20:28,716 Speaker 2: feathery blonde hair is now closely cropped in the style 393 00:20:28,836 --> 00:20:32,796 Speaker 2: typical of his fellow members of the Reserve Officer Training Corps. 394 00:20:33,236 --> 00:20:35,436 Speaker 2: Frank and his friends heard that the President was in town, 395 00:20:35,796 --> 00:20:38,476 Speaker 2: so they went to try and see him. Frank said 396 00:20:38,476 --> 00:20:40,476 Speaker 2: that there were hundreds of people lining the streets of 397 00:20:40,556 --> 00:20:41,676 Speaker 2: Arcadelphia doing the same. 398 00:20:43,236 --> 00:20:45,716 Speaker 6: And honestly, when I saw the entourage coming up the 399 00:20:45,716 --> 00:20:48,036 Speaker 6: street with the Secret Service agents and the governor was 400 00:20:48,076 --> 00:20:50,316 Speaker 6: with him, I thought, well, he's going to walk down 401 00:20:50,316 --> 00:20:51,876 Speaker 6: the middle of the street because there's no way they're 402 00:20:51,876 --> 00:20:55,076 Speaker 6: going to let him have, you know, physical contact with people. 403 00:20:55,196 --> 00:20:57,756 Speaker 6: He's the president, And I was wrong. 404 00:20:58,396 --> 00:21:01,396 Speaker 2: President Clinton, ever of the people person, starts making his 405 00:21:01,436 --> 00:21:04,716 Speaker 2: way into the crowd, shaking hands and taking pictures with kids. 406 00:21:05,196 --> 00:21:07,196 Speaker 6: There was a limited about a three block area that 407 00:21:07,236 --> 00:21:09,116 Speaker 6: we were allowed to stand on from street to street, 408 00:21:09,156 --> 00:21:11,996 Speaker 6: eat the street. But he literally went up one block 409 00:21:12,036 --> 00:21:15,396 Speaker 6: shaking hands, turned went back down the next block shaking hands, 410 00:21:15,436 --> 00:21:17,796 Speaker 6: turned and went back up the third block. I mean, 411 00:21:17,836 --> 00:21:20,996 Speaker 6: he spent a good four hours just walking these blocks 412 00:21:20,996 --> 00:21:22,116 Speaker 6: and shaking hands with people. 413 00:21:22,916 --> 00:21:26,396 Speaker 2: And then Clinton gets to where Frank and his friends 414 00:21:26,476 --> 00:21:27,076 Speaker 2: are standing. 415 00:21:28,076 --> 00:21:31,196 Speaker 6: He stopped, stuck his hand out, shook my hand, and 416 00:21:31,236 --> 00:21:33,596 Speaker 6: he looked at me and he leaned in and he said, 417 00:21:34,116 --> 00:21:35,196 Speaker 6: do you still want to be me? 418 00:21:37,956 --> 00:21:41,196 Speaker 2: Frank said that he almost passed out there he was 419 00:21:41,356 --> 00:21:43,796 Speaker 2: in the middle of a disaster zone in his college, 420 00:21:43,796 --> 00:21:47,396 Speaker 2: shown shaking hands with the President of the United States, 421 00:21:47,636 --> 00:21:50,676 Speaker 2: who has just recalled a small anecdote from meeting him 422 00:21:51,156 --> 00:21:54,596 Speaker 2: thirteen years earlier, when he was nine years old and 423 00:21:54,676 --> 00:21:56,076 Speaker 2: several feet shorter. 424 00:21:56,836 --> 00:21:58,596 Speaker 6: The first thought in my mind was I need to 425 00:21:58,596 --> 00:22:00,996 Speaker 6: go to church and pray because this is like demonic. 426 00:22:01,676 --> 00:22:04,036 Speaker 6: It was just so shocking. And listen, when I tell 427 00:22:04,076 --> 00:22:06,796 Speaker 6: this story, I know it's hard to believe. I understand 428 00:22:06,836 --> 00:22:10,916 Speaker 6: that it seems almost impossible. But if, as we say 429 00:22:10,956 --> 00:22:12,476 Speaker 6: back home, if I'm lying, I'm dying. 430 00:22:13,836 --> 00:22:16,516 Speaker 2: I asked Frank how he thought Clinton could possibly have 431 00:22:16,636 --> 00:22:17,436 Speaker 2: remembered him. 432 00:22:17,956 --> 00:22:20,556 Speaker 6: Some people are just like that. I guess it's little 433 00:22:20,596 --> 00:22:25,756 Speaker 6: wonder that he was born in Hope, Arkansas, to a 434 00:22:25,876 --> 00:22:28,116 Speaker 6: very poor family and ended up being the most powerful 435 00:22:28,156 --> 00:22:31,196 Speaker 6: man in the world. You don't get there without talent. 436 00:22:31,836 --> 00:22:35,676 Speaker 2: People always talk about this mythical charisma Clinton possessed. He 437 00:22:35,756 --> 00:22:39,076 Speaker 2: dazzled voters on the Campian Trail, and believe it or not, 438 00:22:39,236 --> 00:22:42,676 Speaker 2: there are tons of stories just like Frank's. The comedian 439 00:22:42,756 --> 00:22:45,116 Speaker 2: John Mullaney has a whole bit in his twenty fifteen 440 00:22:45,156 --> 00:22:48,316 Speaker 2: comedy special about Clinton's ability to remember people. 441 00:22:49,596 --> 00:22:51,716 Speaker 7: I want to tell you one more story before I 442 00:22:51,716 --> 00:22:53,876 Speaker 7: get out of here, about the night I met a 443 00:22:53,876 --> 00:22:55,116 Speaker 7: guy named Bill Clinton. 444 00:22:55,716 --> 00:22:58,516 Speaker 2: Mullaney tells the story of this disagreement between his parents, 445 00:22:58,796 --> 00:23:02,156 Speaker 2: who went to college with Clinton at Georgetown University, over 446 00:23:02,196 --> 00:23:05,556 Speaker 2: whether or not Clinton would remember his mom Ellen. Apparently, 447 00:23:05,596 --> 00:23:08,316 Speaker 2: he would sometimes walk her home from the library and college, 448 00:23:09,156 --> 00:23:11,036 Speaker 2: and he talks about his mom dragging him to a 449 00:23:11,076 --> 00:23:13,756 Speaker 2: campaign event in the nineties to see if the presidential 450 00:23:13,796 --> 00:23:17,116 Speaker 2: hopeful still remember their walks. Here's what happens. 451 00:23:17,716 --> 00:23:20,676 Speaker 7: She was swinging me like a snowplow. I was just 452 00:23:20,876 --> 00:23:26,556 Speaker 7: mowing down fat Chicago Democrats. I pushed past all the reporters. 453 00:23:26,756 --> 00:23:29,876 Speaker 7: I pushed past all the photographers, We push past all 454 00:23:29,916 --> 00:23:34,116 Speaker 7: the Secret Service. We land at Bill Clinton's feet. Bill 455 00:23:34,156 --> 00:23:37,996 Speaker 7: Clinton turns, looks at my mom and says, hey, Ellen, 456 00:23:38,276 --> 00:23:40,676 Speaker 7: because he never forgets a bitch ever. 457 00:23:43,756 --> 00:23:48,596 Speaker 2: Remember, Facial recognition abilities are on a spectrum. Researchers are 458 00:23:48,596 --> 00:23:52,196 Speaker 2: pretty sure it's a normal distribution, with prosopagnosics on the 459 00:23:52,196 --> 00:23:55,156 Speaker 2: low end. Most of you listening are probably somewhere in 460 00:23:55,156 --> 00:23:57,956 Speaker 2: the normal range, But there are also these people on 461 00:23:58,036 --> 00:24:02,596 Speaker 2: the very high end, the super recognizers. Those who never 462 00:24:02,796 --> 00:24:07,916 Speaker 2: forget a face ever. Something that the super recognizers are 463 00:24:08,036 --> 00:24:11,316 Speaker 2: uniquely good at is being able to identify people even 464 00:24:11,356 --> 00:24:13,876 Speaker 2: after a lot of time has passed or they've made 465 00:24:13,916 --> 00:24:16,716 Speaker 2: changes to their appearance. This is something that Bill Clinton 466 00:24:16,916 --> 00:24:19,476 Speaker 2: is very good at. Now we can't know for sure, 467 00:24:19,556 --> 00:24:22,356 Speaker 2: and Bill Clinton has never said anything about this super 468 00:24:22,436 --> 00:24:25,956 Speaker 2: recognizing ability, but I'd venture to say that he is 469 00:24:26,036 --> 00:24:31,636 Speaker 2: almost certainly a super recognizer. Doctor Joe Degutis, the neuroscientist, 470 00:24:31,956 --> 00:24:34,116 Speaker 2: told me that one of the ways they test facial 471 00:24:34,156 --> 00:24:37,716 Speaker 2: recognition abilities is by showing people pictures of celebrities when 472 00:24:37,716 --> 00:24:40,276 Speaker 2: they were kids, the before they were famous. 473 00:24:40,316 --> 00:24:43,756 Speaker 5: Tests. Oh, it's a picture of like, you know, Barack 474 00:24:43,756 --> 00:24:46,276 Speaker 5: Obama when he was like two years old, and super 475 00:24:46,276 --> 00:24:48,796 Speaker 5: recognizers can like see it. There's this kind of cool 476 00:24:49,516 --> 00:24:52,076 Speaker 5: extrapolation thing that you can be like, I can see 477 00:24:52,836 --> 00:24:54,916 Speaker 5: you know how that could be a younger version of 478 00:24:54,916 --> 00:24:55,676 Speaker 5: Barack Obama. 479 00:24:56,196 --> 00:24:58,596 Speaker 2: While I was reporting the story, I came across a 480 00:24:58,596 --> 00:25:02,036 Speaker 2: bunch of tests online, like the before they were famous one. 481 00:25:02,556 --> 00:25:04,436 Speaker 2: You can take them to gauge how good or bad 482 00:25:04,476 --> 00:25:07,876 Speaker 2: you are at recognizing faces, and I kept getting really 483 00:25:07,916 --> 00:25:12,036 Speaker 2: good scores on them. Suddenly everything started to make sense. 484 00:25:12,796 --> 00:25:15,076 Speaker 2: Remember earlier, when I was telling Malcolm that I never 485 00:25:15,116 --> 00:25:18,716 Speaker 2: forget people that I sometimes feel creepy after recognizing someone 486 00:25:18,716 --> 00:25:22,436 Speaker 2: in line at Target. I started to suspect that maybe 487 00:25:22,556 --> 00:25:27,676 Speaker 2: I was one of these super recognizers. While JJ misses 488 00:25:27,676 --> 00:25:30,476 Speaker 2: the plot of some movies and TV shows, I get 489 00:25:30,516 --> 00:25:34,076 Speaker 2: distracted by extras, like, for instance, when I noticed that 490 00:25:34,116 --> 00:25:36,636 Speaker 2: a passing character in a two thousand and one episode 491 00:25:36,636 --> 00:25:39,436 Speaker 2: of Sex in the City is the guy who spoiler 492 00:25:39,436 --> 00:25:42,036 Speaker 2: alert gets murdered in the first season of the show 493 00:25:42,116 --> 00:25:46,036 Speaker 2: White Lotus twenty years later. Faceblind people can't find their 494 00:25:46,036 --> 00:25:48,956 Speaker 2: friends on the street will I sometimes walk past someone 495 00:25:48,956 --> 00:25:52,156 Speaker 2: that I recognize as my high school friend's cousin who 496 00:25:52,196 --> 00:25:55,756 Speaker 2: I've only seen pictures of. In one of our early calls, 497 00:25:55,916 --> 00:25:58,876 Speaker 2: I told Degotas about my theory and being the good 498 00:25:58,916 --> 00:26:01,596 Speaker 2: scientist he is. He wasn't sold right away. 499 00:26:02,476 --> 00:26:05,996 Speaker 5: I mean, maybe you just like convinced yourself that you're 500 00:26:06,036 --> 00:26:07,716 Speaker 5: super and you're not really super. 501 00:26:08,076 --> 00:26:12,876 Speaker 2: He needed cold data, not random BuzzFeed quizzes. So I 502 00:26:12,876 --> 00:26:15,756 Speaker 2: hopped on Zoom with his research assistant Kaylea Kusel and 503 00:26:15,796 --> 00:26:19,076 Speaker 2: took a three hour battery of tests designed to definitively 504 00:26:19,116 --> 00:26:24,476 Speaker 2: say whether or not. I was a super recognizer, all right. 505 00:26:24,516 --> 00:26:26,956 Speaker 2: So the next one it's called face name. You can 506 00:26:26,996 --> 00:26:29,516 Speaker 2: go ahead and click on that link. The test started 507 00:26:29,556 --> 00:26:32,956 Speaker 2: off super easy. I was breezing through. So they're showing 508 00:26:32,996 --> 00:26:35,796 Speaker 2: me that same face from like different angles, and I 509 00:26:35,836 --> 00:26:38,796 Speaker 2: would say that is extreme eazy. But things out weirder 510 00:26:38,836 --> 00:26:40,956 Speaker 2: as the hours went on, and I started to get 511 00:26:40,996 --> 00:26:44,036 Speaker 2: a little stressed. No, I'm getting nervous. I'm like, goodn't 512 00:26:44,076 --> 00:26:47,596 Speaker 2: you want to get these right? Which is one of 513 00:26:47,636 --> 00:26:51,556 Speaker 2: the six target faces one. I had to do things 514 00:26:51,596 --> 00:26:54,396 Speaker 2: like remember jobs and names of people whose faces would 515 00:26:54,436 --> 00:26:57,516 Speaker 2: flash across the screen really quickly, and at one point 516 00:26:57,556 --> 00:27:02,396 Speaker 2: I was matching spiky blobs with other spiky blobs. That 517 00:27:02,476 --> 00:27:04,196 Speaker 2: one was so hard. 518 00:27:05,636 --> 00:27:07,356 Speaker 3: Yeah, the Georgia's is really crazy. 519 00:27:07,636 --> 00:27:10,356 Speaker 2: I like made me feel like I'd took drugs or something. 520 00:27:10,396 --> 00:27:13,476 Speaker 2: I was like, well, what's happening here? Kayla and I 521 00:27:13,516 --> 00:27:15,396 Speaker 2: wrapped up and she said they'd get back to me 522 00:27:15,396 --> 00:27:17,716 Speaker 2: in a few days with my results. I was eager 523 00:27:17,756 --> 00:27:19,916 Speaker 2: to hear them and unsure of what they would be. 524 00:27:20,716 --> 00:27:22,796 Speaker 2: By the end, I didn't think I did very well, 525 00:27:23,036 --> 00:27:25,396 Speaker 2: and I was kind of embarrassed about the whole charade. 526 00:27:26,116 --> 00:27:30,476 Speaker 2: What if I was just average. A few days later, 527 00:27:30,996 --> 00:27:31,996 Speaker 2: the verdict. 528 00:27:31,796 --> 00:27:32,116 Speaker 7: Was in. 529 00:27:33,996 --> 00:27:36,196 Speaker 2: Degotas and I hopped on a zoom call to go 530 00:27:36,236 --> 00:27:37,516 Speaker 2: over my results. 531 00:27:37,796 --> 00:27:40,036 Speaker 5: I mean, you're kind of the complete package for a 532 00:27:40,076 --> 00:27:43,076 Speaker 5: super recognizer. So I'm wow, I kind of I feel 533 00:27:43,076 --> 00:27:45,076 Speaker 5: like I mean maybe when I when you started taking 534 00:27:45,116 --> 00:27:47,156 Speaker 5: the test, I was a little skeptical, but I think 535 00:27:47,236 --> 00:27:49,636 Speaker 5: I think you're You're right on. I think this is. 536 00:27:52,116 --> 00:27:54,596 Speaker 2: Okay. I have to admit I was over the moon 537 00:27:54,796 --> 00:27:59,156 Speaker 2: at being called the complete package. I said, please go on. 538 00:28:00,036 --> 00:28:04,436 Speaker 5: Actually looking at your results, you were like perfect on 539 00:28:04,516 --> 00:28:07,836 Speaker 5: two of the uh on two of the diagnostic tests, 540 00:28:07,916 --> 00:28:10,636 Speaker 5: like you didn't get a single itema wrong. You also 541 00:28:10,716 --> 00:28:14,436 Speaker 5: did really well in this very impossible task where we 542 00:28:14,516 --> 00:28:18,156 Speaker 5: had you, you know, try to learn sixty faces in 543 00:28:18,196 --> 00:28:19,956 Speaker 5: a very short period of time and you had to 544 00:28:19,996 --> 00:28:23,156 Speaker 5: recognize them like out of one hundred and twenty faces. 545 00:28:23,276 --> 00:28:24,676 Speaker 2: Oh that one was so hard. 546 00:28:25,316 --> 00:28:27,036 Speaker 6: Yeah, no, you did. I mean that's the thing. 547 00:28:27,076 --> 00:28:28,636 Speaker 5: We wanted to kind of push you to see what 548 00:28:28,676 --> 00:28:31,076 Speaker 5: your limits are, and you do have limits, but you 549 00:28:31,156 --> 00:28:33,116 Speaker 5: were really you were really quite good. 550 00:28:34,156 --> 00:28:38,196 Speaker 2: Getting my suspicions confirmed was so gratifying. It was cool 551 00:28:38,196 --> 00:28:41,076 Speaker 2: to know that I have this superpower. Less than two 552 00:28:41,116 --> 00:28:43,796 Speaker 2: percent of people can say the same. I had to 553 00:28:43,796 --> 00:28:44,996 Speaker 2: share all this with Malcolm. 554 00:28:45,436 --> 00:28:48,876 Speaker 1: You're like the Lebron James of facial recognition. 555 00:28:49,396 --> 00:28:51,156 Speaker 2: He did say it was a complete package. So I 556 00:28:51,196 --> 00:28:53,116 Speaker 2: will also take Lebron James if you want to call 557 00:28:53,196 --> 00:28:54,996 Speaker 2: me that, I'm not going to argue. 558 00:28:55,396 --> 00:28:59,076 Speaker 1: My experience of you is dramatically different than your experience 559 00:28:59,076 --> 00:29:03,676 Speaker 1: of me. I am forced to find alternate means of recognition. 560 00:29:04,356 --> 00:29:06,796 Speaker 1: What those of us who have impairment in this area 561 00:29:06,916 --> 00:29:11,076 Speaker 1: do is we're we get obsessed with all the other 562 00:29:11,596 --> 00:29:15,836 Speaker 1: possible cues that we can use to identify somebody, and 563 00:29:16,236 --> 00:29:18,116 Speaker 1: because they're not as reliable as the face where I 564 00:29:18,236 --> 00:29:19,036 Speaker 1: was getting into trouble. 565 00:29:19,276 --> 00:29:21,876 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. This is what JJ Good, the guy from 566 00:29:21,876 --> 00:29:24,116 Speaker 2: the coffee shop, told me that he tries to do too. 567 00:29:24,636 --> 00:29:31,036 Speaker 4: That's Caitlin at the beautiful chin. This is Daniel Lias 568 00:29:31,116 --> 00:29:32,996 Speaker 4: bald Head. That's I remember him, small. 569 00:29:32,796 --> 00:29:35,516 Speaker 2: Bald So a couple of months ago I spent the 570 00:29:35,556 --> 00:29:38,036 Speaker 2: morning with him at the coffee shop and he was 571 00:29:38,076 --> 00:29:40,636 Speaker 2: going around introducing me to all his friends and telling 572 00:29:40,716 --> 00:29:43,156 Speaker 2: me how he tries to identify them. Here other she is. 573 00:29:44,276 --> 00:29:46,196 Speaker 4: This took me a while to recognize her, but she's 574 00:29:46,196 --> 00:29:49,716 Speaker 4: got like redistinct glasses, which is useful, but she's been 575 00:29:49,836 --> 00:29:53,596 Speaker 4: talking about changing her glasses, so I'm worried about that. 576 00:29:54,516 --> 00:29:56,596 Speaker 2: So he told me that he tries really hard to 577 00:29:56,716 --> 00:29:59,236 Speaker 2: find these cues, but you know, it's it's still hard 578 00:29:59,276 --> 00:30:01,396 Speaker 2: for him, and he never wants a repeat of the 579 00:30:01,476 --> 00:30:05,276 Speaker 2: Missy incident. So his solution is to just treat every 580 00:30:05,316 --> 00:30:07,716 Speaker 2: person that walks in as if they are his friend. 581 00:30:08,396 --> 00:30:10,396 Speaker 4: Everybody who come in the door, I stare them down 582 00:30:10,436 --> 00:30:12,276 Speaker 4: because I'm like, I hope I have to see if 583 00:30:12,316 --> 00:30:14,356 Speaker 4: I recognize you and know you're not. So I'm staring 584 00:30:14,396 --> 00:30:16,876 Speaker 4: at them and they look at me and they're like hi, 585 00:30:17,116 --> 00:30:19,756 Speaker 4: and I'm like hi, just in case I know them, 586 00:30:19,836 --> 00:30:21,036 Speaker 4: and they're like Lollo, guys friendly. 587 00:30:21,636 --> 00:30:24,236 Speaker 2: And that morning I was there, JJ was surrounded by 588 00:30:24,316 --> 00:30:26,436 Speaker 2: people like you think he was the mayor or the 589 00:30:26,476 --> 00:30:28,556 Speaker 2: owner of this place. I was like, did you tell 590 00:30:28,596 --> 00:30:30,276 Speaker 2: all these people to show up because you knew I 591 00:30:30,396 --> 00:30:33,076 Speaker 2: was coming? And he was like nope. So he really 592 00:30:33,276 --> 00:30:36,116 Speaker 2: has made all these friends, even in spite of the 593 00:30:36,156 --> 00:30:38,556 Speaker 2: face fline this thing. And I just think that's such 594 00:30:38,596 --> 00:30:39,516 Speaker 2: a lovely way to live. 595 00:30:39,676 --> 00:30:41,156 Speaker 1: That is really beautiful. 596 00:30:42,836 --> 00:30:45,596 Speaker 2: JJ and Missy are great friends now despite the incident. 597 00:30:46,156 --> 00:30:48,276 Speaker 2: You can find them working and chatting at the coffee 598 00:30:48,276 --> 00:30:50,676 Speaker 2: shop most days. They got dinner every once in a while, 599 00:30:50,756 --> 00:30:53,756 Speaker 2: and their spouses and kids have become friends too. But 600 00:30:54,596 --> 00:30:57,036 Speaker 2: their story could have ended very differently. 601 00:30:57,516 --> 00:31:00,156 Speaker 4: Like our friendship almost ended over this, and it's this 602 00:31:00,276 --> 00:31:03,476 Speaker 4: is my nightmare. So this person felt so bad because 603 00:31:03,756 --> 00:31:07,676 Speaker 4: I was not giving her the right attention, that she 604 00:31:08,316 --> 00:31:10,236 Speaker 4: had a whole like crisis, Like what did I do? 605 00:31:10,316 --> 00:31:13,436 Speaker 4: I feel so bad and that's why I'm so weird 606 00:31:13,516 --> 00:31:14,196 Speaker 4: and extra friendly. 607 00:31:15,276 --> 00:31:18,556 Speaker 2: We've all had these experiences where we don't recognize someone 608 00:31:18,636 --> 00:31:21,836 Speaker 2: right away, or someone doesn't recognize us. It can be 609 00:31:21,916 --> 00:31:25,796 Speaker 2: embarrassing and awkward. But the split second assumptions that we 610 00:31:25,916 --> 00:31:29,636 Speaker 2: make about why, that they're aloof or that we said 611 00:31:29,676 --> 00:31:33,156 Speaker 2: something that offended them, or that maybe we just aren't 612 00:31:33,196 --> 00:31:39,276 Speaker 2: memorable might be wrong. Faces matter, but it all comes 613 00:31:39,356 --> 00:31:41,036 Speaker 2: back to what's in our heads. 614 00:31:42,596 --> 00:31:46,436 Speaker 1: Lucy, that is you are Lucy right. 615 00:31:46,556 --> 00:31:49,476 Speaker 2: Yes, I change my shirt, but it's still me. 616 00:31:51,236 --> 00:31:52,236 Speaker 1: This has been a lot of fun. 617 00:31:52,436 --> 00:31:59,396 Speaker 2: This has been great, Thanks Malcolm. Provisionist History is produced 618 00:31:59,476 --> 00:32:03,836 Speaker 2: by me Lucy Sullivan with Bennattapaffrey and Nina Bird Lawrence. 619 00:32:04,596 --> 00:32:08,316 Speaker 2: Our editor is Karen Chakerjee. Fact checking by Kate Ferbey, 620 00:32:08,716 --> 00:32:12,756 Speaker 2: original scoring by Luis Gara, Scoring, mixing and mastering on 621 00:32:12,836 --> 00:32:17,156 Speaker 2: this episode by Echo Mountain. Production support from Luke Lamond. 622 00:32:17,956 --> 00:32:22,196 Speaker 2: Our executive producer is Jacob Smith. Special thanks to Daphne Chen, 623 00:32:22,636 --> 00:32:26,396 Speaker 2: Sarah Nix, and Gretacone, as well as the many people 624 00:32:26,476 --> 00:32:28,556 Speaker 2: who share their time and expertise with me for this 625 00:32:28,636 --> 00:32:36,396 Speaker 2: episode Brad Dushane, Bruno Rossian, Sarah Bate, Erica long Haather Sellers, 626 00:32:36,836 --> 00:32:42,156 Speaker 2: Flexi Malkin, Vivik Rao, and Chris Cochrane. If you suspect 627 00:32:42,236 --> 00:32:44,836 Speaker 2: you might have a problem recognizing faces and you want 628 00:32:44,876 --> 00:32:47,036 Speaker 2: to get involved with the research they're doing at doctor 629 00:32:47,116 --> 00:32:51,156 Speaker 2: Joe Dugutis's lab, go to faceblind dot org. And if 630 00:32:51,196 --> 00:32:54,516 Speaker 2: you're curious about your own facial recognition abilities, visit our 631 00:32:54,516 --> 00:32:56,876 Speaker 2: show notes and take the tests we have linked there. 632 00:32:57,636 --> 00:32:58,636 Speaker 2: I'm Lucy Sullivan. 633 00:33:03,436 --> 00:33:07,636 Speaker 1: Don't forget Listen to Fiasco Auron Contra for the story 634 00:33:07,716 --> 00:33:11,436 Speaker 1: of a not so secret scandal that captivated the United States. 635 00:33:11,956 --> 00:33:14,876 Speaker 1: Fiasco is available where you're listening right now.