Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. Meanwhile, we do need
Speaker 1: to turn back to the Iran war because the International
Speaker 1: Atomic Energy Agency says that it has lost contact with
Speaker 1: Iran's Atomic Safety Regulator. Now, the IAEA Director General, Raphael
Speaker 1: Grossi joins us now live from Vienna. We also want
Speaker 1: to welcome our radio audience for this conversation as well,
Speaker 1: Director General. That is exactly where I want to start,
Speaker 1: and it's what the channel of communication looks like with
Speaker 1: Iron right now and what you're doing to try to
Speaker 1: re establish it.
Speaker 2: Well.
Speaker 3: Yes, of course, we have to consider that we are
Speaker 3: in a war situation, so communications are not as smooth
Speaker 3: and easy as they should normally. Eb you've seen that
Speaker 3: even dignitaries and have had from iranficulty, and the Foreign
Speaker 3: Minister for example, was one of those accepted. So we
Speaker 3: have as normal part of our operations channels of communication
Speaker 3: with different institutions in the nuclear establishment so to speak
Speaker 3: in Iran, including the nuclear regulator, and we haven't been
Speaker 3: able to communicate with them. That doesn't mean we have
Speaker 3: no communication with Iran. We are in contact with the
Speaker 3: Permanent Mission here in Vienna, and we have other channels
Speaker 3: of communication as well, So it's partly concerning, but that
Speaker 3: doesn't mean that we are not talking to.
Speaker 1: Them well to that point. I mean, what has the
Speaker 1: outright outreach looked like from Arian? Are they reaching out
Speaker 1: to you or are you reaching out to them or
Speaker 1: some sort of mixture.
Speaker 3: Here, it's a mix. We have to consider that up
Speaker 3: until next week.
Speaker 2: Sorry.
Speaker 3: Last week, sorry, we had an ongoing negotiation, and then
Speaker 3: of course war started on Saturday morning, which changes everything.
Speaker 3: So I guess that at the moment we cannot go
Speaker 3: back to business as usual, although what we were having
Speaker 3: was no longer business as usual since June twenty twenty
Speaker 3: five with the Twelfth Day War, so the conditions and
Speaker 3: the communications were not as smooth as they used to
Speaker 3: be in the past. So at the moment, I think
Speaker 3: we are all in a sort of wait and see situation.
Speaker 3: We are trying to ascertain what is going on on
Speaker 3: the ground. We are following day by day, minute by minute,
Speaker 3: what is happening with the nuclear sites. Of course, this
Speaker 3: military campaign is in a certain sense different from the
Speaker 3: last years in that the nuclear sites do not seem
Speaker 3: to have been at the center or the main.
Speaker 2: Objective of this campaign.
Speaker 3: I'm not a military expert, and we are only basing
Speaker 3: our comments on what we see on the ground.
Speaker 2: So so far, there hasn't.
Speaker 3: Been evidence of massive attacks or attacks on the facilities.
Speaker 3: There are a couple of images that seem to point
Speaker 3: to some damage one of the poortals in Natans, but
Speaker 3: it doesn't seem to be a continued effort there.
Speaker 2: But of course this may change tomorrow.
Speaker 3: We do not know what is the evolution at the
Speaker 3: theater of operations there.
Speaker 1: I'm glad you clarified that point, since we did hear
Speaker 1: from Iron's envoy claiming that they did see some targeted attacks.
Speaker 1: When it comes to what's going on in the toons,
Speaker 1: I do want to talk about what your organization's role
Speaker 1: is here, since you did have a technical role. Of course,
Speaker 1: when it comes to the diplomatic efforts between Iran and
Speaker 1: the US, I know you said earlier today that frustrated
Speaker 1: to see the collapse of those efforts. But how do
Speaker 1: you view the role that the IAEA has here and
Speaker 1: whether or not there's anything you can do to bridge
Speaker 1: that gap.
Speaker 3: Well, our role is simply dispensable. As you know, the
Speaker 3: IAA aka the Nuclear Watchdog, we are the Nuclear Inspector
Speaker 3: all over the world of all nuclear facilities, and in
Speaker 3: particular we have been having a process with Iran, a
Speaker 3: process which has not been an easy one because Iran
Speaker 3: has not always complied with all their obligations in terms
Speaker 3: of informing of everything they were doing. But we were
Speaker 3: having this relationship since the war we lost some access,
Speaker 3: important accesses to places where we used to inspect, including
Speaker 3: these three main sites you know four though natans Isfahan
Speaker 3: and we were in this sort of talking past each other,
Speaker 3: we requesting them to have access to these facilities, and
Speaker 3: Iran putting a number of reasons why or arguing that
Speaker 3: we could not return for this or that reason.
Speaker 2: Of course, the mediation led by.
Speaker 3: The money Foreign Minister started and at some point when
Speaker 3: the conversations started to acquire some momentum, they judge and
Speaker 3: rightly so that the presence of the Director General of
Speaker 3: the IEA would add to the realism and the concreteness
Speaker 3: of this conversation, because in nuclear diplomacy, you can express
Speaker 3: a general principle, for example, not have nuclear weapons or
Speaker 3: enrich only for medical purposes, but then you have to
Speaker 3: turn that general principle into something concrete.
Speaker 2: What does that mean? What are you planning to do.
Speaker 3: Where how many centrifuges, how many cascades, what are the
Speaker 3: levels of enriched How are you going to verify that?
Speaker 2: And for that?
Speaker 3: Of course, each side may have its own ideas, but
Speaker 3: we as a EEA, we can tell this is what
Speaker 3: is necessary for this stated intention or activity, and then
Speaker 3: propose the necessary verification. Any agreement without verification is just
Speaker 3: a piece of paper. It's not an agreement, it's an
Speaker 3: illusion of an agreement. So I think this was making
Speaker 3: our presence around that table indispensable.
Speaker 2: So we have to see now what's going to happen next?
Speaker 1: And I am curious. I mean, this is the second
Speaker 1: time in less than a year that we've seen these
Speaker 1: negotiations be interrupted by a military strike. You referenced that
Speaker 1: twelve day war back in June. And with that in mind,
Speaker 1: Director General, do you feel that diplomacy is still the
Speaker 1: only option out of this conflict?
Speaker 3: Well, in my opinion, yes, if you want to define
Speaker 3: a rurable, long lasting, stable solution. So of course at
Speaker 3: the moment we are in the midst of a conflict,
Speaker 3: of a military operation. So the countries participating or the
Speaker 3: belligerents may have a different idea. From my perspective, what
Speaker 3: we see is that even with this kinetic phase of
Speaker 3: the conflict, at some point this will come to an end,
Speaker 3: hopefully sooner rather than later. And when that happens, you
Speaker 3: will still have a question mark around these activities, these
Speaker 3: nuclear activities, and we will have to go back to
Speaker 3: the negotiating table. This is what we mean when we
Speaker 3: say we need a diplomatic solution.
Speaker 1: And next week, my understanding is that you're meeting with
Speaker 1: Emmanuel Macron of France. France which just announced that it's
Speaker 1: preparing to increase is the number of nuclear weapons in
Speaker 1: its stockpile because basically it's uncertain of US security guarantees.
Speaker 1: And I'm curious to hear your perspective on how you're
Speaker 1: interpreting those decisions.
Speaker 3: Well, I would say that all of these decisions and
Speaker 3: what is happening not only in France, but in other countries,
Speaker 3: in at least in all nuclear weapons states as recognized
Speaker 3: by the Treaty on the Non Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons,
Speaker 3: we see that given the strategic fragmentation, given the degree
Speaker 3: of polarization that we are seeing in the world, unfortunately,
Speaker 3: we are in a phase where there is we may
Speaker 3: be frustrated by this, but there is an increased reliance
Speaker 3: on nuclear weapons, and this is a concerning development, but
Speaker 3: it's the reality. It is the reality. We would like
Speaker 3: to see a world with less nuclear weapons. We would
Speaker 3: like to see eventually a world without nuclear weapons. You
Speaker 3: may remember that at some point even the President of
Speaker 3: the United States, the previous president of the United States,
Speaker 3: was talking about that. But today, as we see the world,
Speaker 3: the world as it is, we are seeing an increased
Speaker 3: reliance on nuclear weapons.
Speaker 2: In part maybe because of what you mentioned.
Speaker 3: Countries are looking at their own security in terms of
Speaker 3: their autonomy to take their own security decisions without depending
Speaker 3: on someone else.
Speaker 2: We believe that.
Speaker 3: An increased number of nuclear weapons perhaps is not the
Speaker 3: ideal way to secure a more stable and peaceful world.
Speaker 3: But this is the reality that we are seeing. And
Speaker 3: from my perspective from the IEA, what concerns us is
Speaker 3: the fact that countries that heretofore have not had nuclear
Speaker 3: weapons are talking about that because you mentioned France.
Speaker 2: France.
Speaker 3: Of course, France is one of the five countries according
Speaker 3: to the Treaty on the Non Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons.
Speaker 3: By the way, in coincidence, the five permanent members of
Speaker 3: the Security Council. They have an arsenal, and perhaps this
Speaker 3: arsenal goes up or goes down.
Speaker 2: It's not going to.
Speaker 3: Change the overall equation, but what we are seeing, and
Speaker 3: this is more traveling if you want, there is that
Speaker 3: countries that up until now where the.
Speaker 1: Director General, unfortunately we are up against the clock, really
Speaker 1: hate to cut you off, really appreciate your time. That
Speaker 1: is Raphael Mariano Grossi, Director General of the International Atomic
Speaker 1: Energy Agency,