Speaker 1: I can count endless stories of people who were sick
Speaker 1: and forego for when care because they knew the system
Speaker 1: was bad. They knew they were going to be on
Speaker 1: a waiting line for four hours. They knew they were
Speaker 1: going to wait a line just to get a script
Speaker 1: to go see another doctor. They knew they were going
Speaker 1: to get a bill in the mail for four bucks,
Speaker 1: and they have no idea how they're going to pay
Speaker 1: for it. This is Here After, and I'm your host,
Speaker 1: Megan Divine, author of the best selling book It's Okay
Speaker 1: that You're Not Okay. This week on Hereafter, business leader
Speaker 1: and mentor and author and corporate exact doctor Errol Pierre
Speaker 1: joins us to talk about the hardships inherent in climbing
Speaker 1: the corporate ladder, systemic equity, and why all advocacy at
Speaker 1: its root is really grief work. I know that's a
Speaker 1: hodgepodge of things everybody, but the conversation we're about to
Speaker 1: have is going to bring all that stuff together. So
Speaker 1: settle in. We'll be right back after this first break.
Speaker 1: Before we get started, one quick note. While we cover
Speaker 1: a lot of emotional relational territory in each and every episode,
Speaker 1: this show is not a substitute for skilled support with
Speaker 1: a license mental health provider, or for professional supervision related
Speaker 1: to your work. Hey friends, So, on the surface, today's
Speaker 1: guest might seem like an odd match for this show.
Speaker 1: I mean, okay, listen to the description of his new
Speaker 1: book in the Way Up, Climbing the Corporate Mountain. As
Speaker 1: a professional color accomplished executive, Dr Errol Prierre delivers a
Speaker 1: pragmatic and actionable guide to help underrepresented individuals from all
Speaker 1: ethnic backgrounds achieve their professional goals and elevate their careers
Speaker 1: in today's modern workplace. And here's his bio. Dr Errol
Speaker 1: Pierre provides leadership, mentorship and ideans to professionals of color
Speaker 1: across various industries, ensuring the advancement of diverse professionals into
Speaker 1: leadership positions. Okay, all of that sounds amazing and awesome
Speaker 1: and it is. But I mean, the tagline of Hereafter
Speaker 1: is conversations with interesting people about difficult things. So why
Speaker 1: exactly is a corporate executive, mentor leadership author a guest
Speaker 1: on the show. Well, as you will hear in today's conversation, grief, love, suffering,
Speaker 1: and a dream for a better world is at the
Speaker 1: root of everything Dr Errol Pierre does. We kind of
Speaker 1: came to that realization together in the course of our conversation,
Speaker 1: which is also really cool. So on one hand, yes,
Speaker 1: he is an amazing mentor and leader and guide, particularly
Speaker 1: for people of color looking to advance their careers. But
Speaker 1: he's also an advocate for equity and x sessibility in healthcare, which,
Speaker 1: when you think about it, is actually a ferocious, deeply
Speaker 1: embodied care for the well being of individuals and families
Speaker 1: and communities. The work of leadership, whether on a corporate
Speaker 1: level or an advocacy, isn't like to erase pain, the
Speaker 1: pain that is such a large part of being human.
Speaker 1: But the real work is to decrease the odds of
Speaker 1: that pain showing up on your doorstep, and to reduce
Speaker 1: suffering when that kind of pain can't be avoided. This
Speaker 1: conversation is really special, So I don't want you to
Speaker 1: listen to his accolades and think that doesn't sound like me.
Speaker 1: There is so much in this conversation for everybody. Now.
Speaker 1: When I first started talking to him, I kind of frontloaded, though.
Speaker 1: Let's go over your bio and why you being here
Speaker 1: is a topic of discussion before I even actually kind
Speaker 1: of properly welcomed him to the show, sort of a
Speaker 1: host faux pop. But you know whatever, I'm jumping in
Speaker 1: with my own over zealous awkward. Welcome to the awkward
Speaker 1: party is also a tagline for the show, so you know,
Speaker 1: I'm I'm just breaking it anyway, here you go, jumping
Speaker 1: right in with the over zealous awkward. My conversation with
Speaker 1: Dr Errol Pierre. So in the intro, I was telling
Speaker 1: people that you provide leadership, mentorship and guidance to professionals
Speaker 1: of color across various industries, ensuring the advancement of diverse
Speaker 1: professionals into leadership positions, which is a lot of business
Speaker 1: talk that I lifted from your books press release, but
Speaker 1: I want to get behind that. So first of all,
Speaker 1: welcome to the show, Errol. Thank you for having me pleasure.
Speaker 1: We were chatting before we got rolling about like the
Speaker 1: the work of bringing a book out into the world,
Speaker 1: and I think that's part of it too, that like
Speaker 1: there's this book about business that you have out in
Speaker 1: the world, but it's really more than a book about business.
Speaker 1: Can you tell me a little bit about that? Sure? Sure?
Speaker 1: So the culmination of the book The Way Up was
Speaker 1: after the murder of George Floyd and during the pandemic
Speaker 1: that disproportionately impacted communities of color, black and brown populations.
Speaker 1: I was stuck in a nine square foot apartment in
Speaker 1: the Bronx with too much time in my hands and
Speaker 1: was just retrospective on how I ended up being where
Speaker 1: I was at that point in time, and putting pen
Speaker 1: to paper, I really wanted to describe my journey from
Speaker 1: working in the beauty supply store warehouse to becoming chief
Speaker 1: operating officer of a large insurance company in New York
Speaker 1: and then still feeling some emptiness. And so the book
Speaker 1: is a culmination of, Hey, I got to where you're
Speaker 1: supposed to get to. You got to the top, but
Speaker 1: I wasn't happy. And I also interviewed eleven other executives
Speaker 1: of color as well, which are infused to the books.
Speaker 1: Their quotes are through there because unfortunately, under represented people
Speaker 1: like myself, we're not believed. So you need other people
Speaker 1: to have the same story so that you're validated. So
Speaker 1: I also wanted to infuse their input and their insights
Speaker 1: and their experiences, and then lastly back it up with
Speaker 1: data and statistics, so that again it's not just an
Speaker 1: anecdotal story, but that that's really the culmination of it.
Speaker 1: And the goal is twofold one. If you are a
Speaker 1: person of color, hey, here's a nice little rubric of
Speaker 1: tips and tricks that you can learn. That's great. But
Speaker 1: then I think the other major important piece is if
Speaker 1: anyone reads this book, especially someone in leadership at corporation,
Speaker 1: will realize like, wow, I didn't know my employees are
Speaker 1: going through this just to tread in place, and that's
Speaker 1: really the bigger unset story. Yeah, there's sort of this
Speaker 1: like lip service around caring about employees mental health, and
Speaker 1: I love that you bring that up, like you want
Speaker 1: some real stories about what your employees are bringing to
Speaker 1: our lives on the job, Like can we have that
Speaker 1: conversation instead of that sort of you know, pop psychology
Speaker 1: lip service will give you a gift basket for all
Speaker 1: of your hard work, but not address the real systemic
Speaker 1: issues inside corporate structure. Now you mentor professionals of color
Speaker 1: who work in the health care industry, and I imagine
Speaker 1: that there are conversations about really difficult things inside that
Speaker 1: work that you do. It's not just career strategy so
Speaker 1: you know my question was going to be can we
Speaker 1: talk a little bit about the grief spoken and unspoken
Speaker 1: for people of color inside the corporate climb? But I
Speaker 1: think I want to ask a question before that, which is,
Speaker 1: how does grief intersect with this work for you? If
Speaker 1: it does, yeah, it's a great question. It does intersect
Speaker 1: because I say this a bunch of times and throughout
Speaker 1: the chapters, the way society is is going to show
Speaker 1: up inside the office. And for some strange reason, we
Speaker 1: have this belief that when you show up to work
Speaker 1: like this different person, you're not bringing the baggage that
Speaker 1: you have in and so in society, if I go
Speaker 1: to a grocery store and someone follows me around because
Speaker 1: they think I'm going to take something, that sort of
Speaker 1: chip on my shoulder, that paranoia, that feeling is going
Speaker 1: to show up in the workplace when I don't get
Speaker 1: a promotion or I get passed on for a job,
Speaker 1: and delinking the two you do a disservice to your employees.
Speaker 1: So grief is absolutely throughout. Some of the chapters talk
Speaker 1: about traumatic experiences I've been through and how to harness them. First,
Speaker 1: you have to be aware of them and acknowledge them
Speaker 1: so that you can like distress and it doesn't create anxiety.
Speaker 1: And then once you get to that point, which can
Speaker 1: take a while, then harness them as you continue your climb.
Speaker 1: So grief runs throughout it greet not just my grief,
Speaker 1: also brief of my parents. Because I talk about my
Speaker 1: parents that came from Haiti and how they're America was
Speaker 1: different than my America, but yet they're America totally influenced
Speaker 1: how I operate in my America. Yeah, and your parents
Speaker 1: came to America from Haiti in the seventies, right, as
Speaker 1: you said, completely different world. And you write that while
Speaker 1: your father worked really hard and was in a union,
Speaker 1: health care was out of reach for your family, right, Like,
Speaker 1: that's just one example of challenges that people face. You
Speaker 1: talked about it a little bit, But what role does
Speaker 1: that experience play in the life that you've built for
Speaker 1: yourself and the life that you hope to help others
Speaker 1: build for themselves. I talked about in the book It's
Speaker 1: it's a I see it right now vividly. I had
Speaker 1: to get a hut canal when I was a kid,
Speaker 1: and I went to the dentist, and the dentist told
Speaker 1: my dad, and these are grown ups talking, so like
Speaker 1: you're off to the side, you don't know it's right.
Speaker 1: And it's interesting what kids remember right when they're older,
Speaker 1: and the dentist center tolding my dad we can't complete
Speaker 1: the work until January one of next year, so even
Speaker 1: though you started, it was like September, like he has
Speaker 1: to come back in January. I had no idea what
Speaker 1: this smet, and so they sort of like closed my
Speaker 1: tooth that was unfinished and we left, and I remember
Speaker 1: having this feeling of an unfinished mouth walking around, not
Speaker 1: realizing why I had to wait till January. Later on
Speaker 1: in life, I learned, oh, dental plans for union workers
Speaker 1: who have worked menial jobs my dad was dishwasher at
Speaker 1: a nursing home are not comprehensive. So we had an
Speaker 1: out of pocket max, which meant the root canal. The
Speaker 1: whole cost of root canal was more than the benefit
Speaker 1: I had per year, and so I end up ironically
Speaker 1: working in health insurance and that became my passion. It's like,
Speaker 1: this is crazy that in the country that is spends
Speaker 1: more money than any country in the world on healthcare,
Speaker 1: doesn't provide adequate comprehensive, high quality care to all of
Speaker 1: its citizens with dignity and respect. There's so much of
Speaker 1: a lack of dignity and respect when a father has
Speaker 1: to tell their son, I'm going to bring you back
Speaker 1: to finish your tooth next year. So I know he
Speaker 1: felt that as a hard hit, and I could see
Speaker 1: it as a kid that he was kind of like,
Speaker 1: I'm not doing enough, and I thinking, my passion. That's
Speaker 1: why I'm into health equity space today. Of no one,
Speaker 1: no one, no one should not get comprehensive care that
Speaker 1: they deserved that's culturally sensitive and high quality. Yeah. I
Speaker 1: mean again, we go back to sort of these are
Speaker 1: headlines and buzz words, right. The lack of comprehensive health
Speaker 1: care has real world impact, like all of these things,
Speaker 1: but until you live it, until you really understand the
Speaker 1: personal impact of that, it's just a headline. It's just
Speaker 1: something to be mad about. It's just something to say
Speaker 1: we should all move to Canada or you know whatever,
Speaker 1: the things that we do that are not in the
Speaker 1: muck of the real human toll of that. Yeah. The
Speaker 1: one thing I'd add to is we shouldn't wait until
Speaker 1: it happens to us for it to be validated. So
Speaker 1: I don't need to have someone else experience lack of
Speaker 1: health care for me to say, oh, it happened to
Speaker 1: my mother, so now I believe in it and unfortunate. Really,
Speaker 1: it happens a lot in America where it's like, well,
Speaker 1: I don't experience it, so it's not real until it
Speaker 1: happens to you. Then you're like, well, I'm speaking from
Speaker 1: you know, experience, just so real. It shouldn't be that way.
Speaker 1: If if one human experienced it, then it's valid. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I would love that. I would love if if
Speaker 1: human brains work that way. But it does seem like
Speaker 1: there's something important that has to happen to sort of
Speaker 1: open those doors in the brain to recognize somebody else
Speaker 1: as deserving of support and access and care and all
Speaker 1: of those things. There's this great I'm not going to
Speaker 1: go on this tangent for too long, but there's this
Speaker 1: great book called General Theory of Love written by three psychiatrists.
Speaker 1: It's an older book now, but they talk about how
Speaker 1: there were experiments done on the limbic part of the
Speaker 1: brain in mammals. I promise this is related to what
Speaker 1: you were just saying, But what they found and sorry,
Speaker 1: this is an animal study, everybody, not my study, don't
Speaker 1: yell at me. But what they found was that if
Speaker 1: they damn of just the limbic part of the brain
Speaker 1: of female hamsters, that those female hamsters wouldn't recognize their
Speaker 1: own offspring, they would basically treat them as furniture, and
Speaker 1: that if they stimulated the limbic part of the brain,
Speaker 1: then everybody was family and they cared for each other.
Speaker 1: And they're like, so, so of course me. I'm like, so,
Speaker 1: what we're saying is that for the people who enact
Speaker 1: policies that do actual damage to real, actual people, they
Speaker 1: have limbic deficits, and there's some limbic damage in there,
Speaker 1: and what we need to do is find some way
Speaker 1: to help them reconnect with the part of their brains
Speaker 1: that sees every life as valid and deserving of care.
Speaker 1: And how the heck do we do that, I don't know,
Speaker 1: but I do know that some of that work is
Speaker 1: advocacy work. I told you I could bring this back
Speaker 1: right a lot of so some of the ways that
Speaker 1: we do that that we help people understand that things
Speaker 1: need to happen to make things better for others, even
Speaker 1: if it's not your own shared experience. Like, that's advocacy
Speaker 1: work in a nutshell, and a lot of your public
Speaker 1: advocacy work is in health equity. That phrase health equity
Speaker 1: is something that we sometimes see in headlines. So can
Speaker 1: you tell me, first of all, what that means in
Speaker 1: a business and policy sense, and then what it means
Speaker 1: for you personally. We touched on that a bit, but
Speaker 1: I like the two parter here. Yeah. Sure, So health
Speaker 1: equity the intent is it's different than equality health Health
Speaker 1: equality equal would mean everyone gets a visit to a physician.
Speaker 1: One visit to a physician, that's equal, But some patients
Speaker 1: may need six visits, and some may patients may be
Speaker 1: so healthy they need zero. So health equity looks from
Speaker 1: an economic lens, how to take limited resources and make
Speaker 1: sure that they're used in the most equitable efficient way
Speaker 1: based on the needs of the people. And so the
Speaker 1: example you know you can use is like one patient
Speaker 1: maybe a wheelchair. Doesn't mean everyone needs a wheelchair for
Speaker 1: it to be equal, But from an equino perspective, say
Speaker 1: give this person a wheelchair, this other person may need
Speaker 1: something else. And so we spend two point five times
Speaker 1: more than any other country in the nation. We don't
Speaker 1: need more money, we need better bureaucratic systems to make
Speaker 1: sure that the money flows to the right places. And
Speaker 1: so what health Equity fights for is today there is
Speaker 1: somewhere in New York City a mom who's a single
Speaker 1: mom with a child who won't go to the doctor
Speaker 1: because by taking off work means they won't make money,
Speaker 1: and so they stay at work and their sickness gets
Speaker 1: worse and they end up in the emergency room at
Speaker 1: the worst point, and then on the same vein. And
Speaker 1: there's another mom who can take off work because their
Speaker 1: salaried and they decide to bring their child to the
Speaker 1: off the doctor's office twenty times for stifools, earaches anything,
Speaker 1: And that person who's going twenty times can probably go
Speaker 1: four times. And then the mom who never went once
Speaker 1: should probably go twice at least for preventive care of
Speaker 1: visits in the follow up. And what Health Equity trying
Speaker 1: to do is shake that. It turns into sometimes controversial
Speaker 1: because it's like you're taking something from someone, you're rationing care. Ironically,
Speaker 1: every developed nation on the planet besides us, that's health
Speaker 1: care that way, United Kingdom, France, Germany, Norway, Sweden. That's
Speaker 1: how they do care. They say, the people who need
Speaker 1: it get it. The people who don't need it, they
Speaker 1: will be a little bit longer. That's just how it
Speaker 1: works when you have limited resources. So that that's really help.
Speaker 1: Equity you layer on to it as well cultural competency.
Speaker 1: We happen to be some of the most diverse citizens
Speaker 1: in the world in America, and so you're thinking through
Speaker 1: English is not the first language. What happens when someone's
Speaker 1: telling you, you know, discharge information on how to leave
Speaker 1: a hospital. So if someone is saying to you you
Speaker 1: need to have a meal with these medications that you
Speaker 1: take twice a day, and it's not in their native language,
Speaker 1: do they understand those instructions that will be abide by it.
Speaker 1: The example I always used to is some only with
Speaker 1: pneumonia shows up to the emergency room. You stabilize them,
Speaker 1: you give the medication, you send them home. They end
Speaker 1: up going back to a nitia house building public housing
Speaker 1: that doesn't have heat. We didn't solve the issue. So
Speaker 1: how that But he also thinks about the other determinants
Speaker 1: of health that's outside of just getting access to care,
Speaker 1: but other things that also lead to health outcomes. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's really looking at the whole complex picture of things
Speaker 1: and understanding that we don't operate in a vacuum. And
Speaker 1: I think that industry and corporate levels often think just
Speaker 1: in one channel, right, yeah, just one channel and not
Speaker 1: in systems. And it's like, you know, I'm listening to
Speaker 1: you say the you know, the economic benefit of equitable
Speaker 1: care like it, we have to actually make it fit
Speaker 1: into the language that industry speaks, which is economics. Right,
Speaker 1: it's it's r O I And that actually caring for
Speaker 1: people in the ways that they need to be cared
Speaker 1: for is to your economic benefit. Is that a hard sell? Now,
Speaker 1: I'm just now, I'm just indulging my curiosity, But is
Speaker 1: that a hard sell inside the health care industry for you?
Speaker 1: I don't think it's a hard sell. I think the
Speaker 1: work needed to get done to make it happen is
Speaker 1: the hard sell. So the example we can show is
Speaker 1: other developed nations like Norway, Sweden. They do lots of
Speaker 1: social programs for their citizens, stick paid leave, child care,
Speaker 1: free healthcare, and what they find is their healthcare costs
Speaker 1: are reduced because they're investing in things that keep people healthy. Right.
Speaker 1: People believe that in concept. Now in America, when you say, okay,
Speaker 1: we agree with the concept, let's make it happen. Songbody
Speaker 1: has to change, and that's what the rubb is. No
Speaker 1: one wants to change. Like I agree, eral health equity,
Speaker 1: let's do it. But can you leave me alone and
Speaker 1: start with them? Right? I mean, I think this is
Speaker 1: this is probably you know, the response to a lot
Speaker 1: of behavioral and worldview changes, right like, yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: that sounds great. I'm on board as long as I
Speaker 1: don't have to do anything different, as long as I
Speaker 1: don't have to feel any discomfort, as long as nothing
Speaker 1: in my world needs to change. And of course there's
Speaker 1: a direct bridge here to addressing systemic racism in the
Speaker 1: medical industry, right like, oh yeah, I'm totally on board
Speaker 1: with you. I get this. That's a terrible outcome. But
Speaker 1: I like, I've got managed care, and I've got this,
Speaker 1: and I've got that. Like, so we think about the
Speaker 1: health care industry, insurance especially as this like anti human
Speaker 1: monolith from a consumer that that is definitely how I
Speaker 1: feel about it. But I was listening to an interview
Speaker 1: with you the other day as I was preparing for
Speaker 1: our time here together, and you were talking about systemic
Speaker 1: racism and what we call poor medical outcomes for people
Speaker 1: of color. And you used a term of systemic equity
Speaker 1: as a counterpoint to systemic racism. Can we talk about
Speaker 1: that for a minute, and then I then I do
Speaker 1: want to get into like the reality of health outcomes
Speaker 1: for communities of color. So systemic equity, what does that mean?
Speaker 1: So I'll say that we're trying to fix the issues.
Speaker 1: And so when you think from a perspective of solving things,
Speaker 1: you hear the term that people use a systemic racism
Speaker 1: and systemic inequality because it's embedded into systems that we have.
Speaker 1: I like to say, let's start from scratch. Let's have
Speaker 1: a clean piece of paper. What would be the world
Speaker 1: we would imagine. So you start with systemic equity, and
Speaker 1: from that perspective, you're like, here's all the dollars, now,
Speaker 1: let's rationally think about how to get it federated to
Speaker 1: the right places. Systemic equity would then say, okay, the
Speaker 1: best most efficient way to deliver care is to preventive
Speaker 1: care visits. Awesome. Here are a group of people who
Speaker 1: are unable to show up to the doctor because transportation
Speaker 1: is an issue, because there are a senior who lives
Speaker 1: on a shift or walk up that doesn't have an
Speaker 1: elevator because they are salaried, and any time that they
Speaker 1: take off work, they're not putting money in their pocket.
Speaker 1: They can't find a doctor speaks their language. Of the
Speaker 1: vaccination websites were only in English, so if they speak
Speaker 1: or do Chinese Asian creole, they won't even know how
Speaker 1: to book an employment. So we would make sure there
Speaker 1: was more funds for those to get their preventive care visits,
Speaker 1: and then folks that can navigate the healthcare arena would
Speaker 1: eventually get their care as well because they have health literacy,
Speaker 1: they have the capabilities, they have transportation and things of
Speaker 1: that nature. And so instead of speaking of a deficit
Speaker 1: like oh my gosh, that's systemic inequity and it's so bad, Like, well,
Speaker 1: how would we create the perfect model where we start
Speaker 1: with systemic equity. It's embedded in the system. An example
Speaker 1: is when they created those vaccination websites for everyone to
Speaker 1: get vaccinated. Obviously, the people who were around the table,
Speaker 1: we're thinking through the lens themselves, but like I use
Speaker 1: a desktop and it's English, not realizing that the people
Speaker 1: who had the highest hesitancy don't use desktop as their
Speaker 1: formal way to get into that access to use a
Speaker 1: mobile phone, and English is not their first language, so
Speaker 1: systemic equity would have built a mobile app in Spanish
Speaker 1: and Chinese first, So that that's the type of thing
Speaker 1: that I like to solve publes with. From that perspective,
Speaker 1: it's like, let's look at it from a systetic equity lens.
Speaker 1: Start with the way you want to create it, as
Speaker 1: opposed to trying to move the deck chairs on something
Speaker 1: that's broken. That is brilliant. It really is, because it's
Speaker 1: like I think, when you start talking about systemic racism
Speaker 1: systemic inequity, people get their hackles up. Just is what
Speaker 1: you describe, Like that sounds great, but don't make me
Speaker 1: change anything. But I think if you present things as
Speaker 1: let's start from scratch and what dream can we build,
Speaker 1: I think that maybe that engages people's limbic systems. I
Speaker 1: don't know, but there's something really welcoming about this idea
Speaker 1: of collaborating on the world we most want. I remember
Speaker 1: a teacher of mine I used to say years ago,
Speaker 1: like everybody can agree that we want clean water. Where
Speaker 1: we argue is about who gets to have it right.
Speaker 1: So I hear what you're saying there is like we
Speaker 1: can all agree that we want to be cared for,
Speaker 1: and we want to care for other people. We want
Speaker 1: to like indulge is the wrong word here, but like
Speaker 1: indulge our better natures because at some core level, I
Speaker 1: think also what I really love about that approach is
Speaker 1: it sort of has an unspoken baseline of people are
Speaker 1: good and want to do good right, which I think
Speaker 1: can easily get lost in the choices that people and
Speaker 1: industries and countries. And you mentioned this, the phrase systemic
Speaker 1: racism can denote that it's impossible to solve. They say, oh,
Speaker 1: it's systemic, So now you're absolving human beings from their
Speaker 1: individual behaviors. Well, it's not me, it's systemic. And then
Speaker 1: to its systemic, so you're like, well, how am I
Speaker 1: going to change healthcare? That's too big, it's too and
Speaker 1: so I think it's defeating too from people of like
Speaker 1: I don't don't even know where to start. This is
Speaker 1: too big, and I absolved of any responsibility because it's
Speaker 1: the system. So I also think the phrase also leads
Speaker 1: to some of that cynicism. I love that it really
Speaker 1: is a welcoming in thing like, um, you know at
Speaker 1: the time that we're recording l A County and well
Speaker 1: all of California has been getting pelted with a lot
Speaker 1: of rain, and there's a lot of pissy tweets out
Speaker 1: there saying, good job, Billy, you didn't keep the water
Speaker 1: right when like, um, okay, you clearly have no idea
Speaker 1: how water reclamation works on a big systemic level. But like,
Speaker 1: these are really big complex issues and it's not just
Speaker 1: up to the big complex forces to solve, Like, there
Speaker 1: are things that we can do as individuals to help
Speaker 1: make things different. It's not just passing things downstream just
Speaker 1: somebody else whose job it is. Right, Yeah, and we
Speaker 1: go back to sort of advocacy and finding places that
Speaker 1: are important to you to take action. Right. I want
Speaker 1: to talk a little bit about your work in Haiti,
Speaker 1: if we could do that, Feminant. We've been talking with
Speaker 1: Dr Errol Pierre, author of the new book The Way Up.
Speaker 1: Let's get back to it. I want to talk a
Speaker 1: little bit about your work in Haiti, if we could
Speaker 1: do that, Feminant. So you're on the board of Minnova,
Speaker 1: which is a nonprofit that provides free medical character residents
Speaker 1: of North Eastern Haiti and as I was reading about
Speaker 1: that work and we talked a second ago about like
Speaker 1: the lenses that we look through. I see everything as
Speaker 1: a grief issue. Everything is a grief issue in my opinion.
Speaker 1: But reading about that work, I was like, this is
Speaker 1: this is a grief issue, right, Advocacy and policy are
Speaker 1: a grief issue. But I want to I want to
Speaker 1: hear that from you, is do you think that's accurate?
Speaker 1: Is my assessment that, like policy is a grief issue?
Speaker 1: I think so, I've never thought of it through that lens,
Speaker 1: But as you say it, I'm like, yeah, that makes sense.
Speaker 1: So Haiti and I said this earlier. I mean, what
Speaker 1: they've gone through is just traumatic as a whole for
Speaker 1: a nation. God is independence at eighteen o four from
Speaker 1: but the biggest empires at the time the poem bought
Speaker 1: apart and ever since then they've been sort of punished
Speaker 1: because back then, to see a country gain as freedom
Speaker 1: as former slaves would have been, you know, lead to
Speaker 1: other countries to the same. So a lot of countries
Speaker 1: didn't even recognize their independence, didn't trade with them, and
Speaker 1: they sort of that's stuck in a rut. France ended
Speaker 1: up charging them debt, so they basically bought their own bodies,
Speaker 1: which is just insane that that happened. One of the
Speaker 1: few countries I actually had to pay for their freedom.
Speaker 1: And so that all you fast forward to a country
Speaker 1: that is consistently just getting bombarded by whether natural disasters, hurricanes, earthquakes,
Speaker 1: or just coups after coups, like right now, they don't
Speaker 1: have a stable government as it is. Their former president
Speaker 1: was was assassinated and they still don't have a new president.
Speaker 1: And so I'm thinking through that lens of like what
Speaker 1: can I do. I'm an American, my parents grew up
Speaker 1: in Haiti, but I feel like I can do something
Speaker 1: because I'm so thankful for I am in my career.
Speaker 1: And that's where I stumbled upon many Nova. There was
Speaker 1: a major earthquake, seven point something earthquake in two and
Speaker 1: that was sort of the impetus for me to know
Speaker 1: that I had to go back to the country of
Speaker 1: my father, and so I was like, I need to
Speaker 1: do something. I can't just sit here and donate to
Speaker 1: American Red Cross, like I felt the need that I
Speaker 1: had to be there, And so was my first visit
Speaker 1: to Haiti on a mission trip and we just like
Speaker 1: at that point in time, it was literally like all
Speaker 1: hands on deck providing food. We were at a tent
Speaker 1: based hospital, providing like immediate care. And the ironic thing
Speaker 1: is things that we take for granted, that we buy
Speaker 1: over the counter at CVS and Walgreens, these were medications
Speaker 1: we were giving to people in Haiti because they don't
Speaker 1: have it. So, you know, someone suffering from diarrhea, like
Speaker 1: simple things. And so I didn't think we would be
Speaker 1: getting out pep to bisball as a as a need,
Speaker 1: but that's what people needed at the time because the
Speaker 1: water was so dirty as an earthquake, and so it
Speaker 1: was just something I knew that I wanted to give back,
Speaker 1: and I felt the purpose to MEDINVA does these trips
Speaker 1: every year. So I've been back to Haiti every year since,
Speaker 1: with the exception of because of COVID, but I've got
Speaker 1: every year besides that, and we've since raised enough money
Speaker 1: to have a full time clinic. So one of the
Speaker 1: things with nonprofits are you know, you do these meditarian
Speaker 1: humanitarian trips and you just show up, you give out care,
Speaker 1: and you leave, and people always say, well, how is
Speaker 1: that continuous? What do you do? It's you're just a
Speaker 1: drop in the bucket, and so we really wanted to
Speaker 1: be have a stable, long term healthcare access point for
Speaker 1: the people of Haiti. And so we've since built a
Speaker 1: clinic in the city of Karacoll that's now open twenty
Speaker 1: four hours, seven days a week. It's staff by Haitians,
Speaker 1: it's run by Haitians, it's ser Statians, and so we
Speaker 1: we still n race for keeping that clinic open, and
Speaker 1: I sit on the board just always thinking about advocacy
Speaker 1: on how to keep those patients that are working they're safe,
Speaker 1: and then when it's safe again, bringing Americans to Haiti
Speaker 1: so they can see it for themselves. So as you're
Speaker 1: describing that, I'm wondering. We talked a few minutes ago
Speaker 1: about building the world that we want from the ground up.
Speaker 1: Do you feel like that's part of what's happening with
Speaker 1: Mannova and the work in Haiti. It's it's tough that
Speaker 1: things impacting Haiti are so big and multi layered. However,
Speaker 1: if the least I can do is and this gets
Speaker 1: back to health equity, provide culturally competent care. So these
Speaker 1: are Haitian doctors and nurses getting care to Haitians what
Speaker 1: tends to happen is a lot of NGOs show up
Speaker 1: and they're providing great care to doing what they need
Speaker 1: to do, but it's not in language, is not culturally relevant.
Speaker 1: So I love the fact that this clinic is run
Speaker 1: by Haiti and and and staff by ations um So
Speaker 1: we're doing our apart from that perspective, and then we're
Speaker 1: helping the economy because we hire from the community where
Speaker 1: the clinic is. I would love to think it can
Speaker 1: expand the hardest part about it is trying to think
Speaker 1: through how to make it sustainable on its own so
Speaker 1: it does it doesn't need donations. I will continue to
Speaker 1: obviously raise funds, but like we have to think the
Speaker 1: next step of how to become sustainable. Over time, I
Speaker 1: think we'll get to the point of creating the new
Speaker 1: future when within Haiti there could be systems that are
Speaker 1: sustainable on their own, that can help their own people. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's a point here that I want to pull out
Speaker 1: that as we start to build into that dream of
Speaker 1: systemic equity and to place care where it needs to
Speaker 1: be placed. It doesn't mean that things don't suck. It
Speaker 1: doesn't mean that there isn't still suffering and complex issues
Speaker 1: and being in the path of natural disasters like that,
Speaker 1: the best organized health care system is not going to
Speaker 1: stop hurricanes. And bringing this back to the States, it's
Speaker 1: like health care equity. Systemic equity is not going to
Speaker 1: stop people from getting sick. It's not going to stop
Speaker 1: people from dying. If that's not our goal, what's our goal?
Speaker 1: So it doesn't stop people from getting sick, but what
Speaker 1: it will start is that person who was sick to say,
Speaker 1: I'm actually going to make effort to get the care
Speaker 1: I need because the barriers have been removed. I can
Speaker 1: count endless stories of people who were sick and forego
Speaker 1: for when care because they knew the system was bad.
Speaker 1: They knew they were going to be on a waiting
Speaker 1: line for four hours. They knew they were going to
Speaker 1: wait a line just to get a script to go
Speaker 1: see another doctor. They knew they were going to get
Speaker 1: a bill into mail for four bucks, and they have
Speaker 1: no idea how they're going to pay for it. And
Speaker 1: so if you think about a model war, yes, we
Speaker 1: when we can't prevent people from getting sick, but can
Speaker 1: we make a model that when you are sick, at
Speaker 1: least you know you're going to get the care you need,
Speaker 1: and you're gonna feel respect and so that you actually
Speaker 1: go and get the care your need. The vast majority
Speaker 1: of our pain that we feel on the system is
Speaker 1: because of people avoiding care one because of cost, too,
Speaker 1: because of fear, and then in three just because they
Speaker 1: don't feel the system is built for them. I have
Speaker 1: to say share one stat so mortunity I Mortality in
Speaker 1: America is as bad as third world countries are stats.
Speaker 1: So if you take a hundred thousand women and they're pregnant,
Speaker 1: on average, fifteen of them will die giving birth. And
Speaker 1: if you look at other countries like Japan or Norway,
Speaker 1: it's like seven and six and five, and you're in
Speaker 1: some European countries, so it's low. We're fifteen. Now when
Speaker 1: you look at African American women, it jumps up to forty,
Speaker 1: and then specifically Haitian women in Brooklyn where of it's
Speaker 1: like sixty eight. Wow. And so in America we have
Speaker 1: the average of fifteen, but different people have much higher numbers.
Speaker 1: And the question is, well why is that? And when
Speaker 1: you look at the data, when a black woman gives
Speaker 1: birth and goes into the hospital, one their level of
Speaker 1: pain is not believed that this happened to Serena Williams.
Speaker 1: So it's it doesn't matter if you're lowing tone or
Speaker 1: you're a billionaire. The level of pain is not believed.
Speaker 1: So they say, you know, on a scaffulment to tend,
Speaker 1: how's your pain? Black woman says eight, And they're like, Oh,
Speaker 1: you're exaggerating because I think you're strong. Maybe you're a
Speaker 1: big woman, you have I think your skin looks tough.
Speaker 1: You guys just know how to get through things. So
Speaker 1: they're not believed from that perspective. And then too, for
Speaker 1: some strange reason, and this is from bias, typical regiments
Speaker 1: that's supposed to be provided aren't provided to patients of
Speaker 1: color because they're like, well, they don't need that. I
Speaker 1: don't I'm not going to give it. I'm not going
Speaker 1: to do that. And you actually see patient mattern changes
Speaker 1: that happened specifically to a woman of color giving birth
Speaker 1: Black women, and so we know the reasons why it's
Speaker 1: sixty eight patient mothers are going to die when they
Speaker 1: give birth out of a hundred thousand verses fifteen. And
Speaker 1: then it's like, are we going to have the intestine
Speaker 1: afforded to to call it out and say we can
Speaker 1: fix it. We know we can fix it. We're gonna
Speaker 1: believe them when they say what pain level they're at,
Speaker 1: and we're going to give the same level of care.
Speaker 1: So this mother that we would any other mother that
Speaker 1: walks in, and we're not going to let the color
Speaker 1: of their skin have like implicit bias and have us
Speaker 1: do something different. There's a good book called a tool
Speaker 1: one day called Checklist Manifesto, and essentially it's like, make
Speaker 1: it checklist that way, there's no bias. Everyone who comes
Speaker 1: in that presents this way, they get this, and you
Speaker 1: remove the bias of this like subjectivity of the doctors saying, ah,
Speaker 1: they don't need that, I'm gonna do will do this,
Speaker 1: which then leads to death, you know, with with with
Speaker 1: that type of process. Without having a checklist manifesto, all
Speaker 1: of this awareness and advocacy and a resting systemic patterns,
Speaker 1: all of these things, the work you do is grief work,
Speaker 1: right because again I'm going to go back to headlines, right,
Speaker 1: Like we see the articles and the news stories and
Speaker 1: the clips of maternal death rates for black women, and
Speaker 1: it's a headline, right, and it might be something that
Speaker 1: we say, like that sucks, like that's not right, and
Speaker 1: then we go back to, you know, if that hasn't
Speaker 1: been in our personal sphere, we go back to, you know,
Speaker 1: everything is a dumpster fire. If that has been in
Speaker 1: our personal sphere, we say, yeah, I lived that, and
Speaker 1: it's it's this big thing that we can't we can't
Speaker 1: seem to get people to pay attention to. But these
Speaker 1: are like, these are actual, real people and families and
Speaker 1: communities that are living the effects of these practices. And
Speaker 1: so you know, you don't have to claim that you
Speaker 1: do grief work. But from where I sit, like all
Speaker 1: of this advocacy work on so many levels, is to
Speaker 1: reduce pain where there is pain of aoid pain where
Speaker 1: pain can be avoided, and where we can't avoid pain,
Speaker 1: we care for the suffering of the individuals, the families,
Speaker 1: and the communities to surround that suffering with support. And
Speaker 1: that's grief work. Appreciate it. I want to go back
Speaker 1: to the focus of your book if I can. It
Speaker 1: kind of feels like a sharp detour from what we've
Speaker 1: been talking about. But again for me, like I don't
Speaker 1: see the territory that we've just been exploring, and your
Speaker 1: book as two separate things because we can't divorce. I
Speaker 1: think you started out by saying this, like you can't
Speaker 1: take the social and communal lived experience and separate it
Speaker 1: from your experience in the job force, in the work world,
Speaker 1: Like there is no what is that? What's that show
Speaker 1: that I haven't watched? Where like there's a an enforced
Speaker 1: separation between work and your world or something severance, right,
Speaker 1: Like I sorry, everybody, I am under an entertainment rock
Speaker 1: and I haven't seen it, but I do know what
Speaker 1: it is enough to reference it here, But like that
Speaker 1: doesn't exist, right, And so a lot of what you
Speaker 1: do in your book is naming those on the job
Speaker 1: and off the job issues and helping people navigate them.
Speaker 1: One of my favorite things about your approach is, like,
Speaker 1: you know, you think about a business a business coach.
Speaker 1: You're not a business coach, but you think about like
Speaker 1: business coaching, and they're like, you can do anything, nothing
Speaker 1: is impossible. And what I love about you as a
Speaker 1: human and you as a leader is you don't say
Speaker 1: that stuff because the reality is is that some things
Speaker 1: are impossible and you can't do everything that you dream
Speaker 1: And if we could start having those conversations, that could
Speaker 1: really change things. Yeah, I call out specifically the example
Speaker 1: of not becoming the race police in your corporation. So, yes, diversity,
Speaker 1: equity and inclusion is important. Yes, you should call out
Speaker 1: bias that you feel in the workplace, and you should
Speaker 1: do it in the right way, and there's there's tips
Speaker 1: to talk about how to do it and giving people
Speaker 1: grace to the process. But you cannot be the police
Speaker 1: for the company on what's racist and what's not as
Speaker 1: a person of color, navigating through what's biased and what's not,
Speaker 1: what's discrimented by what's not, because it will take you
Speaker 1: so far away from your day job. You will be
Speaker 1: let go not because of your bringing up these issues,
Speaker 1: but because it's impossible to perform the way you need
Speaker 1: to perform while trying to police human behavior. And so
Speaker 1: I always say, like, like we talked about earlier, society
Speaker 1: comes into the workplace there, it's not two different worlds.
Speaker 1: So you know, you're literally trying to say I'm going
Speaker 1: to throw every starfish back into the ocean. It's impossible.
Speaker 1: So do what you need to do to navigate for
Speaker 1: your career, help out your peers, But by no means
Speaker 1: are you going to change the world. Because trying to say, like,
Speaker 1: my company is going to be perfect, like society is
Speaker 1: not perfect. Until society is perfect, your company won't be perfect.
Speaker 1: But don't try to have that goal. Your goal is
Speaker 1: make sure that you have the right mental health, make
Speaker 1: sure that you're taking advantage of all the opportunities you can,
Speaker 1: make sure you don't get walked over, and taking advantage
Speaker 1: of you speak up when you see things, and you
Speaker 1: navigate on behalf of you and your your peers. But
Speaker 1: that's to the point of you know, it's I'm not
Speaker 1: going to be someone as like raw you can change
Speaker 1: the world. Everyone's going to be perfect panacea. It's like
Speaker 1: it's not it's not worth it, and it's not possible either.
Speaker 1: It's not possible. And I love how you know, when
Speaker 1: we very first started our conversation, you said that a
Speaker 1: lot of your work is about acknowledging the challenges for
Speaker 1: people of color in that corporate leadership climb. And for me, like,
Speaker 1: the acknowledgement is such powerful medicine, right, having spaces that
Speaker 1: where you can tell the truth about that, And I
Speaker 1: think that's some of the beauty of your business leader
Speaker 1: work is you're naming what's true, right, and and not
Speaker 1: from this and we will fix it all place. And
Speaker 1: also not from a collapsed we're all screwed, but from
Speaker 1: like this real position of awareness and support and encouragement
Speaker 1: in the things that are within your sphere of control,
Speaker 1: so that you can meet the level of success that
Speaker 1: you most dream of for yourself while acknowledging the real
Speaker 1: difficulties on the road to get there. I think that
Speaker 1: the goal of the book was one and I've the
Speaker 1: feedback I've gone from people that started reading it is Wow,
Speaker 1: your story is so much like mine. So that's great.
Speaker 1: So now you're not alone, because I think there's a
Speaker 1: lot of people of color passing through the workplace thinking
Speaker 1: they're by themselves and their alone, not realizing that other
Speaker 1: people are going through it. Two saying it out loud
Speaker 1: so you can point to black and white and saying, oh, okay,
Speaker 1: Like now I know what impostor syndrome is. Now, I
Speaker 1: know what code switching is. Now, I know the impacts
Speaker 1: of performative allied ship. I know what to call it
Speaker 1: when I see it. I didn't know there was a
Speaker 1: vocadality award for that. Bad bosses, you know, sometimes bosses
Speaker 1: are bad, not because the racist just because Darren asshole.
Speaker 1: You know, think about the boss you're gonna work for
Speaker 1: before you get the job. I think people worry about
Speaker 1: d E and I after they get the job and
Speaker 1: they walk in and say, oh, what programs you have?
Speaker 1: You should be asking those things during the interview. And
Speaker 1: I call it out specifically in the book, like, hey,
Speaker 1: and you share with me on your team, what was
Speaker 1: the last It was the diversity metrics of the last
Speaker 1: round of promotions. Actually, did you know? That's a reasonable
Speaker 1: question to ask. I'm just curious because as a person
Speaker 1: of color that's going to be in a room where
Speaker 1: I'm the only one I want to know, like, how
Speaker 1: do you have experience and history of having emotions in
Speaker 1: the past. But we have to get better at asking
Speaker 1: those questions up front, and if someone's uncomfortable about that,
Speaker 1: it tells you whether you should work there or not. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that is clear information. If you ask that question and
Speaker 1: they're like deer in the headlights like that as information,
Speaker 1: that's important, you know, And I love I love this.
Speaker 1: I mean the as you're describing that. Of course, my
Speaker 1: brain is also thinking making the parallels between what you
Speaker 1: just described and the work of building equitable systems from scratch.
Speaker 1: It's like you can't stop the crap of the system,
Speaker 1: like you can't take on that giant. However, there is
Speaker 1: so much that you can do to reduce your own
Speaker 1: suffering and to name the pain that's in the room.
Speaker 1: And I think, you know this is this is a
Speaker 1: band wagon that I'm on a lot that like, you know,
Speaker 1: when we're talking about grief. When I'm talking about grief,
Speaker 1: I'm not just talking about grief related to death. We're
Speaker 1: talking about the pain and suffering of being alive and
Speaker 1: all of the friction points where that shows up. And
Speaker 1: the approach, you know, the the approach that I believe
Speaker 1: in for grief is not just It doesn't just belong
Speaker 1: to death and illness. It belongs to every part of
Speaker 1: human life. And again, I I want to pull that,
Speaker 1: pull that out, or pull that back that That's so
Speaker 1: much of what I understand as the as the core
Speaker 1: of the work that you do in the world, across
Speaker 1: all of the sectors, is where can we name the
Speaker 1: pain that's immovable and create systems of support around that
Speaker 1: pain so that our suffering is reduced. I can share
Speaker 1: an example, and I talk about this specifically in the book,
Speaker 1: So people have mentored before that are frustrated with their
Speaker 1: careers that they feel stuck. I'm just stuck, right, and
Speaker 1: so I have this chapter on being an entry level
Speaker 1: job and just feeling stuck and describing to an employee.
Speaker 1: Think about it this way. One job entry is going
Speaker 1: to get three thousand resumes. There's already bias in the
Speaker 1: machine that's going to shrink that three thousand resumes down
Speaker 1: to the ten that the recruiters actually gonna look at.
Speaker 1: So there's a there's probably a long shot that you'll
Speaker 1: be selected because what they're using is people who have
Speaker 1: already been promoted and I'm already at the company and
Speaker 1: using those words to put into the algorithm to get
Speaker 1: new people. So most likely you're going to get squeezed out.
Speaker 1: Then you have ten resumes left over, and then human
Speaker 1: intervention happens. Probably the resumes are not diverse, right, the
Speaker 1: ten resumes that they they're selecting, and then the panel
Speaker 1: of the people that are going to do the interviews
Speaker 1: are not diverse. So you're like, I'm not editing at
Speaker 1: a job. But just take a step back and realize,
Speaker 1: like all the barriers along the way that you went
Speaker 1: through to get there, and what I was like, it
Speaker 1: is what's actually happening. Someone has a mentor. That mentor says,
Speaker 1: I have a job that's getting posted in June and
Speaker 1: it's only in January. They know about it ahead of time.
Speaker 1: Then they get an email the job's posting like tomorrow. Okay, great,
Speaker 1: they already sent their ransome. They tell the recruiter Molly's
Speaker 1: applying for the job. Make sure that you find her away.
Speaker 1: You know, she's the one that I want to interview.
Speaker 1: Other people come through, you do, we do the interview,
Speaker 1: everyone already knows Molly is a chosen person, and then voila,
Speaker 1: Molly got the job. So you're submitting resumes just really
Speaker 1: nearly to all these websites going through that path. What
Speaker 1: I would advise is you have to build relationships. You
Speaker 1: need to find the mentor to find the relationships with
Speaker 1: people internally that are gonna tell you about the role
Speaker 1: before it's posted, and go from that perspective. And then
Speaker 1: if you're in a position of power. What I now
Speaker 1: have the control to do as a as a leader
Speaker 1: in my company is when I look at the ten resumes,
Speaker 1: I'm like, I will not start the process until the
Speaker 1: ten resumes represent the community reserve. I need a diverse
Speaker 1: late to candidates, and then the people are going to
Speaker 1: do the interview. I need a diverse late of interviewees.
Speaker 1: I won't even accept the people until I have a
Speaker 1: diverse late. And so I can do that from my
Speaker 1: perch from power. But then the person who's applying can
Speaker 1: also do their part and saying I got to navigate
Speaker 1: this system differently because just posting a resume is not
Speaker 1: gonna happen. And so to your point, yes, you can
Speaker 1: be you can have grief of the process, or you
Speaker 1: could just say this is the way it is and
Speaker 1: then what can I do about it? Yeah, there's there's
Speaker 1: the truth telling in there. And you know everything every
Speaker 1: thing comes down to relationship building, doesn't it. Everything always
Speaker 1: comes down to relationship building, for good or for not good.
Speaker 1: But that is that is what it is all about.
Speaker 1: And I think that the way that we build the
Speaker 1: worlds that we want across all sectors is relationship building
Speaker 1: by telling the truth right and finding which part of
Speaker 1: the suffering we can reduce. And now I wonder not
Speaker 1: as I say that out loud, I'm like, oh wait,
Speaker 1: but Rol is talking about don't start from a deficit.
Speaker 1: Start by talking about the world that you want to
Speaker 1: live in so that you can inhabit it. So I'm
Speaker 1: going to have to think about how I talk about
Speaker 1: the reduction of suffering in my dream vision of the world.
Speaker 1: But that that is, that is some self work for
Speaker 1: another day, the growth of the growth of joy. But
Speaker 1: I think I think that gets really really tricky, at
Speaker 1: least from in the work that I do, because we
Speaker 1: so often rush joy without naming the pain, and so
Speaker 1: that means that we leap frog over it. It's that
Speaker 1: same sort of thing that if a person of color
Speaker 1: is saying, like the cards are stacked against me and
Speaker 1: like there's this and this, We're like, but focus on
Speaker 1: the joy, right So there, For for me, there's a
Speaker 1: lot of beauty in naming the pain and allowing it
Speaker 1: to exist and then finding ways to reduce the suffering
Speaker 1: around that, and to me that actually feels really hopeful.
Speaker 1: But this show is not about my hope. It is
Speaker 1: about your hope, which is a really lovely segue for me.
Speaker 1: So much of the work that you do is with
Speaker 1: these really big dinosaur systems, and change takes a really
Speaker 1: long time. You're quoted in an article for Essence magazine
Speaker 1: about the tech industry's slowness to diversify its workplace and
Speaker 1: like empty promises, and there's a lot of that in
Speaker 1: the book. So thinking about the long view of things,
Speaker 1: or maybe the wide view of things, because I'm trying
Speaker 1: to and I'm trying to like put my linguistic arms
Speaker 1: around all of you, not just the exact knowing what
Speaker 1: you know and living what you've lived. What does hope
Speaker 1: look like for you now? Yeah, hope to me is
Speaker 1: giving a dose of energy and optimism and I guess
Speaker 1: passion to people who were just about to give up.
Speaker 1: I talked about in the book Guarding against Synthicism and
Speaker 1: every once in a while you just need another dose
Speaker 1: of energy to keep moving. For me, I want to
Speaker 1: go to bed every night saying, at bare minimum, my
Speaker 1: passion and my purpose on life has moved forward at
Speaker 1: least one inch, at least one inch before I go
Speaker 1: to bed. And so today I'm doing more than one
Speaker 1: inch talking with you when I want to make sure
Speaker 1: at least one inch my passion and my purpose moves forward.
Speaker 1: And if I can inspire a new set of leaders
Speaker 1: that are going to be like I'm going to push
Speaker 1: for this and push for an extra inch, and that's
Speaker 1: person Now it's just about to give up to say
Speaker 1: I've been trying this for so long. I'm about to
Speaker 1: give up. What's the point? Hopefully there now reinvigorated to
Speaker 1: say I'll push on for two more months, you know.
Speaker 1: And that's really the hope that I have is that
Speaker 1: if we all can collectively boost each other, inspire each other,
Speaker 1: we keep pushing for the work, because I do think
Speaker 1: at the end the place we will get better. You know.
Speaker 1: It's like two steps forward, one steps back, but we
Speaker 1: will get to a better place. H I love that,
Speaker 1: And you're doing such big work to build that world
Speaker 1: into being. Yeah, okay, this sounds like a really good
Speaker 1: place to wrap us up. We're gonna link to your
Speaker 1: website and to your new book in the show notes.
Speaker 1: Anything else you want people to know about you or
Speaker 1: the book, or places they should look for more information
Speaker 1: about the little sparks that you set off in their minds.
Speaker 1: Sure so, yeah, The Way Up is out now. It's
Speaker 1: available anywhere books are sold Amazon, Target, Barnes and independent bookstores,
Speaker 1: independent stores stores. Absolutely that your point clock and please
Speaker 1: find me on social media, let's speak, let's talk. I'd
Speaker 1: love to engage and talk about anything about, you know,
Speaker 1: advancing just an inch e r R O l l
Speaker 1: P I E r R e uh pretty much all
Speaker 1: social media ro LP are on instat Ram, linked in Facebook,
Speaker 1: anywhere you can find me excellent, And obviously we will
Speaker 1: put all of those into the show notes for you everybody,
Speaker 1: so that you do not have to furiously write them
Speaker 1: down and figure out how to spell everything. It'll all
Speaker 1: be in your show notes, all right, Errol, thank you
Speaker 1: my friend for being here. Everybody. We will be right
Speaker 1: back with your questions to carry with you right after this.
Speaker 1: Each week I leave you with some questions to carry
Speaker 1: with you until we meet again. Now you know what
Speaker 1: really struck me in this conversation with Dr Errol Pierre, Well, okay, first,
Speaker 1: surprising nobody. I definitely look at everything through a grief lens,
Speaker 1: and I know that, but it's also really like wow,
Speaker 1: that came up again. And not only do I look
Speaker 1: at my own life in the world around me through
Speaker 1: a grief lens, but I look at everybody else's lives
Speaker 1: through a grief lens for them. Okay, Second thing that
Speaker 1: I'm taking from this conversation, I felt truly optimistic after
Speaker 1: the time I spent with Dr Pierre me being optimistic
Speaker 1: is a stretch a lot of days. So feeling optimistic
Speaker 1: is really cool. And I love that. I love his
Speaker 1: vision of systemic equity. I love the phrasing of that,
Speaker 1: this idea that we can build the world we want
Speaker 1: to inhabit from the ground up every time we have
Speaker 1: an opportunity to do so. That all just feels so
Speaker 1: much more achievable than trying to fix a system that
Speaker 1: is deeply, deeply broken. So what parts of the conversation
Speaker 1: stuck with you today? What made you think or cry
Speaker 1: or feel even just the tiniest bit more seen in
Speaker 1: the life that you are living. Everybody's going to take
Speaker 1: something different from today's show, but I do hope you
Speaker 1: found something to hold onto. Hope really is a crowdsourced thing,
Speaker 1: And as we've learned, grief is a really big motivator
Speaker 1: behind a lot of important work. Whether we name it
Speaker 1: that or not, grief, hope the world we most want
Speaker 1: to inhabit, it's all the same work. Anyway. I don't
Speaker 1: want to put my grief lens on your life. I
Speaker 1: want you to tell me what's true for you. Check
Speaker 1: out Refuge and Grief on Instagram or here after Pod
Speaker 1: on TikTok to see video clips from the show and
Speaker 1: you can leave your thoughts, your comments, your feedback, your
Speaker 1: AHA moments in the comments on those posts. You can
Speaker 1: also post your own clips and thoughts and ideas about
Speaker 1: the show on your own social media. Just be sure
Speaker 1: to tag us in your conversation starting posts so that
Speaker 1: we can find you. Use the hashtag here after pod
Speaker 1: on all platforms. We love to see where this show
Speaker 1: takes you. Remember to subscribe and leave a review, especially
Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts, which is the easiest place to leave
Speaker 1: a review. Those reviews help more, and you know. If
Speaker 1: you want to tell us how today's show felt for you,
Speaker 1: or you have a question or a request for upcoming
Speaker 1: explorations of difficult things, give us a call at three
Speaker 1: to three six four three three seven six eight and
Speaker 1: leave a voicemail. If you missed it, you can find
Speaker 1: the number in the show notes or visit Megan Divine
Speaker 1: dot CEO. If you'd rather send an email, you can
Speaker 1: do that too. Write on the website Megan Divine dot
Speaker 1: c O. We want to hear from you. I want
Speaker 1: to hear from you, this show, this world needs your voice. Together,
Speaker 1: we can make things better even when they can't be
Speaker 1: made right. I want more of this cool. Grief is
Speaker 1: really the foundation of all things conversation. Grief education doesn't
Speaker 1: just belong to end of life issues. As my dad says,
Speaker 1: daily life is full of everyday grief that we don't
Speaker 1: call grief. Learning how to talk about all that without
Speaker 1: cliches or platitudes or simplistic dismissive statements is an important
Speaker 1: skill for everyone. Find trainings, professional resources, and my best
Speaker 1: selling book, It's Okay that You're Not Okay, plus The
Speaker 1: Guided Journal for Grief at Megan Divine dot c. O
Speaker 1: Hereafter with Megan Divine is written and produced by me
Speaker 1: Megan Divine. Executive producer is Amy Brown, co produced by
Speaker 1: Elizabeth Fossio, with logistical and social media support from Micah,
Speaker 1: Edited by Houston Tilly, and music provided by Wave Crush
Speaker 1: and background noise provided not only by the helicopters in
Speaker 1: the distance, but by Luna asking very quietly, very polightly,
Speaker 1: but very repeatedly for a little doggy care and attention