1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:27,240 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of I Heart Radio. Welcome 2 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:30,440 Speaker 1: back to the show Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always 3 00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:33,640 Speaker 1: so much for tuning in. We have a very special 4 00:00:33,720 --> 00:00:36,920 Speaker 1: episode today, and who better to produce that than our 5 00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:45,520 Speaker 1: number one super producer, Mr Max Williams. Uh yeah, nol 6 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:49,120 Speaker 1: Uh you're no, I'm Ben and uh you you and 7 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:56,360 Speaker 1: I recently watched the film on Netflix called Operation Mincemeat. Yeah. 8 00:00:56,400 --> 00:00:58,400 Speaker 1: I I initially thought it was going to be some 9 00:00:58,520 --> 00:01:02,240 Speaker 1: sort of British baking kind of show situation, but it 10 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:04,919 Speaker 1: turns out it was British. But there's very little baking, 11 00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:07,560 Speaker 1: precious little baking in Operation mince Meat. But you know 12 00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:11,960 Speaker 1: what mince meat is, Yeah, mince meat is a well 13 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:14,200 Speaker 1: you know me, man, I'm a walking garbage can when 14 00:01:14,280 --> 00:01:18,360 Speaker 1: it comes to food. I eat all sorts of stuff. Basically, 15 00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:21,919 Speaker 1: it's like, it's weird to call it meat. It always 16 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:25,160 Speaker 1: has been to me because it's suet. But then a 17 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:28,720 Speaker 1: lot of dried fruit and uh spices, and I think 18 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:31,920 Speaker 1: they distill some spirits of some sort, some kind of 19 00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:34,759 Speaker 1: boozy thing that cooks down and doesn't have a lot 20 00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:37,479 Speaker 1: of alcohol in it, do the cooking process, and then 21 00:01:37,480 --> 00:01:41,039 Speaker 1: you put it in like a pastry, Sue, isn't that 22 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:45,360 Speaker 1: as like beef juice, like like like beef slime? Basically, 23 00:01:45,959 --> 00:01:50,920 Speaker 1: uh yeah, it's fat, pretty sure, And suet doesn't always 24 00:01:50,960 --> 00:01:53,200 Speaker 1: have to be beef. It can come from like lamb 25 00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:57,080 Speaker 1: as well. It's it's specifically I thought someone checked me 26 00:01:57,120 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 1: on this. I thought was kind of fat around the 27 00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:03,520 Speaker 1: loyal and the kidneys of the anoma. It's not that 28 00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:07,120 Speaker 1: far off from the consistency of aspec. You've ever had 29 00:02:07,160 --> 00:02:12,560 Speaker 1: any weird gelatinous seventies kind of dishes with things preserved 30 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:15,800 Speaker 1: in jelly or whatever aspect is? Uh? You know, there 31 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:18,040 Speaker 1: are some really good if you get like I fear 32 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:20,280 Speaker 1: into the stuff, which I know it's controversial. There's different 33 00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:23,600 Speaker 1: ways to make it that are more humane than goose pette. 34 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:25,520 Speaker 1: But there are different types of pette that sometimes we'll 35 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:27,880 Speaker 1: have a layer of like a ginger kind of like 36 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:30,320 Speaker 1: fruited aspect on top and beef. So it is not 37 00:02:30,639 --> 00:02:32,280 Speaker 1: too far from that. But we're not talking about the 38 00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:35,040 Speaker 1: actual dish, MINS mean, which would be usually served in 39 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:37,680 Speaker 1: a pie crust of some kind of mince meat pie. 40 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:41,440 Speaker 1: We are, in fact talking about an operation carried out 41 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:45,280 Speaker 1: by British intelligence that may well have been one of 42 00:02:45,320 --> 00:02:50,800 Speaker 1: the prime movers in swinging the tide of World War two. Yeah, 43 00:02:51,040 --> 00:02:55,040 Speaker 1: absolutely correct, and funny story they came up with the 44 00:02:55,160 --> 00:02:58,640 Speaker 1: name because British intelligence at the time had kind of 45 00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:01,919 Speaker 1: this list of common name aims that you would pull from. 46 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:04,960 Speaker 1: That was really interesting to me, the idea that maybe 47 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:07,000 Speaker 1: there were a bunch of guys kind of brainstorming in 48 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:09,360 Speaker 1: a room and they said, Okay, where are we gonna 49 00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:12,080 Speaker 1: call this next one? And someone said, you know, maybe 50 00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:14,160 Speaker 1: they skipped lunch, and someone's like, I don't call it 51 00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:17,400 Speaker 1: mince meat, you know, but they did apparently have a 52 00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:21,200 Speaker 1: list of approved names. You're right. No, this was a big, 53 00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:25,600 Speaker 1: big deal and it happened in utter secrecy. So we 54 00:03:25,639 --> 00:03:28,920 Speaker 1: want to talk a little bit today about the real 55 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:31,840 Speaker 1: life events that informed the film you can see on 56 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:37,320 Speaker 1: Netflix today. This operation was a result of intelligence agencies 57 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:41,360 Speaker 1: always trying to fake each other out. So the British 58 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:49,680 Speaker 1: invented a ghoulishly creative way of delivering fake intel in Spain, 59 00:03:49,760 --> 00:03:53,920 Speaker 1: which was neutral at this time in nine and they 60 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:57,760 Speaker 1: wanted it to end up with the German forces, and 61 00:03:57,840 --> 00:04:00,680 Speaker 1: you know, always thinking, man, we're channeling a bit of 62 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:03,800 Speaker 1: stuff they don't want you to know. Today another show 63 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:07,560 Speaker 1: that we do, and this one is a real life 64 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:13,480 Speaker 1: conspiracy weirdly enough, and you can go back and forth 65 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:15,360 Speaker 1: on how far they should have leaned into this with 66 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:20,320 Speaker 1: the film weirdly Enough, the entire idea starts with fly fishing, 67 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:24,200 Speaker 1: not a euphemism straight up like cast in the real 68 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:27,320 Speaker 1: little fake fly on there. Yeah, but it also, like 69 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:28,960 Speaker 1: you know, it was used as a metaphor, right like 70 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:33,200 Speaker 1: in this document called the Trout Memo I believe um 71 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:38,120 Speaker 1: that was then presented to a committee called the twenty 72 00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:41,200 Speaker 1: Committee or the Committee of twenties. And it just shows 73 00:04:41,279 --> 00:04:44,919 Speaker 1: how deep some of these very clever British quips go 74 00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:48,680 Speaker 1: with some of these project names and code names, because 75 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:50,760 Speaker 1: you know, twenty was not referring to the number of 76 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:53,279 Speaker 1: members in the Council or whatever you wanna call it. 77 00:04:53,279 --> 00:04:56,960 Speaker 1: It was not referring to the number twenty exactly. It 78 00:04:57,040 --> 00:05:00,920 Speaker 1: was referring to the Roman numeral twenty x x, meaning 79 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:05,120 Speaker 1: double crosses. So it was a organization, though specifically designed 80 00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:07,599 Speaker 1: to do exactly what you said, Ben to fake out 81 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:13,359 Speaker 1: other intelligence agencies and governments through elaborate russ UH and 82 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:18,560 Speaker 1: ultimately deception, and that is very much what went into 83 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:21,919 Speaker 1: the thinking behind Operation Mincemeat. It was a way to 84 00:05:22,640 --> 00:05:27,200 Speaker 1: send faulty information to the Germans so that they would 85 00:05:27,279 --> 00:05:30,120 Speaker 1: act on that information believing that it was true, giving 86 00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:33,880 Speaker 1: the Americans or the Allied forces the advantage. Yeah, and 87 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:38,320 Speaker 1: we owe a big debt to historian Ben McIntyre. Actually, 88 00:05:38,400 --> 00:05:43,159 Speaker 1: the film Operation Mincemeat is based primarily on on his work. 89 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:47,719 Speaker 1: It's nuts. It's nuts because there's a There are parts 90 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:50,080 Speaker 1: of the film where people are saying with all sincerity 91 00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:53,200 Speaker 1: and there's a real thing. They're saying, yes, I know 92 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:56,200 Speaker 1: sow and show he thought I was a double agent 93 00:05:56,279 --> 00:05:58,359 Speaker 1: when I was a triple agent. To keep your eye 94 00:05:58,400 --> 00:06:00,680 Speaker 1: on that one. And it's like how many times do 95 00:06:00,760 --> 00:06:03,679 Speaker 1: you go with this song and dance and this weird 96 00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:07,560 Speaker 1: tango of who's who's betraying whom? Uh? This guy named 97 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:11,560 Speaker 1: Rear Admiral John Godfrey. Here's why it starts with fly fishing. 98 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:15,400 Speaker 1: He digs fly fishing. He's super into this trout memo 99 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:19,040 Speaker 1: and it's some sun Zoo art of war stuff. Because 100 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:22,400 Speaker 1: the metaphor is, you know, just like you said, they 101 00:06:22,440 --> 00:06:25,320 Speaker 1: love a metaphor. So the metaphor is that you can 102 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:30,840 Speaker 1: deceive your enemy the way that someone fishing can deceive 103 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:33,720 Speaker 1: a fish. We pulled a quote here just to give 104 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:38,640 Speaker 1: you a sense of it. The trout fisher cast patiently 105 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:42,960 Speaker 1: all day. He frequently changes his venue and his lures. 106 00:06:43,279 --> 00:06:45,880 Speaker 1: If he has frightened to fish, he may give the 107 00:06:45,880 --> 00:06:49,680 Speaker 1: water arrest for half an hour. But his main endeavors 108 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:53,279 Speaker 1: to attract fish by something he sends out from his boot. 109 00:06:54,839 --> 00:06:59,520 Speaker 1: He's insistant, incessant. I love that. There's a great scene 110 00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:03,839 Speaker 1: in the movie be Where. Um, this guy presents the 111 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:07,120 Speaker 1: trout memo to Winston Churchill. I remember the I didn't 112 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:09,160 Speaker 1: know the actor who was playing Churchill. It's obviously like 113 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:11,960 Speaker 1: a really you know, sought after a role of you know, 114 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:14,880 Speaker 1: some of the best actors have portrayed Churchill, so specifically 115 00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:18,360 Speaker 1: h Gary oldman, you know, and like an unrecognizable amount 116 00:07:18,440 --> 00:07:21,240 Speaker 1: of prosthetics. Um, but this dude did a really kind 117 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:23,440 Speaker 1: of not over the top. It's an easy one to 118 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:25,360 Speaker 1: like chew the scenery with because Churchill was a real 119 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:28,680 Speaker 1: character and known for these fiery speeches and turns of phrase. 120 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:31,840 Speaker 1: But the guy said, he I forget who was it 121 00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:33,680 Speaker 1: was because one of I think his assistant or one 122 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:35,760 Speaker 1: of the guys who was in this kind of cadre 123 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:39,840 Speaker 1: of of military brass that we're walking around with Churchill 124 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:43,000 Speaker 1: was Ian Fleming, the author of you know, the James 125 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:46,800 Speaker 1: Bond novels, and he based his James Bond characters on 126 00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:49,040 Speaker 1: people that he actually knew and some of the operations 127 00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:50,800 Speaker 1: that he actually participated in. But the point is, the 128 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:53,520 Speaker 1: guy says to uh, Churchill, have you heard of the 129 00:07:53,520 --> 00:07:59,840 Speaker 1: Trout memo? Church because I despise fish And then and 130 00:07:59,840 --> 00:08:01,880 Speaker 1: then he walks away, and then he says something like, 131 00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:06,640 Speaker 1: they're describing the Trout Memo as describing these very fantastic 132 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:11,480 Speaker 1: and elaborate methods of deception, and Churchill replies, like, you know, 133 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:15,920 Speaker 1: I'm I'm fond of the the elaborage and fantastic, much 134 00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:20,160 Speaker 1: better than the mundane. Yes, like and then he says, 135 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:23,160 Speaker 1: but you know, in order to pull off something elaborate, 136 00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:27,240 Speaker 1: it has to be beyond fool proof. Yeah, that's the thing. 137 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:31,160 Speaker 1: And this this paper, this memo, builds on this fly 138 00:08:31,280 --> 00:08:35,319 Speaker 1: fishing metaphor. It lists all in all, fifty four different 139 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:39,520 Speaker 1: what if ways that the United Kingdom could try to 140 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:43,040 Speaker 1: deceive their enemies. The axis forces just the same way 141 00:08:43,040 --> 00:08:45,880 Speaker 1: of fly Fisher could like they lean into it, is 142 00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:49,120 Speaker 1: what we're saying. Uh, wouldn't this have been kind of 143 00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:53,520 Speaker 1: an early codification of like spycraft, like in the UK, 144 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:58,000 Speaker 1: the Great Game had been continuing a pace for a while. 145 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:01,160 Speaker 1: I would say it's fair to call all this kind 146 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:06,760 Speaker 1: of part of the dawn of modern tradecraft or spycraft. Yeah, 147 00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:10,720 Speaker 1: so they're they're deep in stuff there, as Corporate America says, 148 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:14,360 Speaker 1: they're building the plane while they fly it. Today's story 149 00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:17,319 Speaker 1: is not about the entirety of the Trout memo. You 150 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:20,760 Speaker 1: basically got the gist, folks. It's about the twenty eighth 151 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:25,240 Speaker 1: suggestion in that weird paper, the idea of getting a 152 00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:30,480 Speaker 1: dead body, planting fake intel on that dead body, and 153 00:09:30,520 --> 00:09:33,960 Speaker 1: then just sort of dropping it somewhere where German intelligence 154 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:36,120 Speaker 1: will find it. And they didn't make up this idea, 155 00:09:36,160 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 1: by the way, they got it from a novel. Because 156 00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:45,720 Speaker 1: Admiral Godfrey and Ian Fleming we're working together. Godfrey loved fishing, 157 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:50,520 Speaker 1: Fleming loved fiction. And you know, I think about it 158 00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:54,040 Speaker 1: sometimes like general's admiral's are very very busy people the 159 00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:57,720 Speaker 1: top brass. So how do you communicate with someone like that, 160 00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:01,280 Speaker 1: you make it something relatable to them. So instead of saying, 161 00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:04,840 Speaker 1: instead of saying, hey, man, let's let's start using dead 162 00:10:04,840 --> 00:10:07,920 Speaker 1: bodies the trick people he opened with you know what 163 00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:12,000 Speaker 1: wars a lot like Admiral It's like fishing, and he's like, oh, 164 00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:14,719 Speaker 1: I like fishing, Yeah I can, I can. I can 165 00:10:14,760 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 1: grab my around that, I can get behind that. It's 166 00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:19,240 Speaker 1: interesting though. We were talking about this on our group 167 00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:22,000 Speaker 1: text thread. There is a kind of a running gag 168 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:25,360 Speaker 1: in the in the movie where basically, like everyone is 169 00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:29,920 Speaker 1: a writer, everyone's working on a novel. It's pretty funny. Um, 170 00:10:30,280 --> 00:10:33,040 Speaker 1: several of the of the top brass type characters are 171 00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:35,160 Speaker 1: in fact working on novels, and it becomes this kind 172 00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:37,960 Speaker 1: of like fun running joke in the movie. But yeah, 173 00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:40,280 Speaker 1: it's true. They got the idea from a novel. I 174 00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:42,960 Speaker 1: don't recall which one. I don't know if that comes 175 00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:45,800 Speaker 1: up necessarily in the movie, but um, it is. Maybe 176 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:48,520 Speaker 1: it sounds like the kind of deception you would see 177 00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:51,200 Speaker 1: as the twist and like a detective novel like Paro 178 00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:53,520 Speaker 1: or like you know, Sherlock Holmes or something like that. Right, 179 00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:56,959 Speaker 1: So think about it. The idea is to pass off 180 00:10:57,040 --> 00:11:00,280 Speaker 1: this body as a genuine soldier, a genuine you know, 181 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:03,800 Speaker 1: human being who died in the um you know, course 182 00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:09,960 Speaker 1: of serving their country, and you know, planting false information 183 00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:12,320 Speaker 1: on them so that the Germans would find it in 184 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:14,520 Speaker 1: the hopes that they would believe it to be true. 185 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:17,800 Speaker 1: They knew that they would do an autopsy and make 186 00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:20,200 Speaker 1: sure that the body was in fact, you know, because 187 00:11:20,200 --> 00:11:22,400 Speaker 1: there's all this all this paranoia at the time, you know, 188 00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:26,000 Speaker 1: they would not accept anything at face value. So they 189 00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:31,160 Speaker 1: had to go about this in the most meticulous way 190 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:34,559 Speaker 1: you could imagine, like they created a backstory for this person. 191 00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:36,880 Speaker 1: We'll get into the details of that, but first before 192 00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:39,320 Speaker 1: any of that fun stuff, which all involves like make 193 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:42,920 Speaker 1: basically like writing stories. It's like a story bible. You're creating, 194 00:11:43,160 --> 00:11:46,280 Speaker 1: you know, a living, breathing human being that is actually 195 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:49,400 Speaker 1: entirely fictionalized. You got to find a body first, a 196 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:53,559 Speaker 1: viable specimen that isn't too old, that hasn't been mutilated 197 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:55,480 Speaker 1: in any kind of way that like, you know, it 198 00:11:55,559 --> 00:11:58,000 Speaker 1: looks like it was someone that just went down with 199 00:11:58,040 --> 00:12:01,040 Speaker 1: their plane and drowned up, and you have to do 200 00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:04,920 Speaker 1: an utter secrecy. So you're playing that Goldilocks game for 201 00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:09,760 Speaker 1: the perfect perfect corpse basically, and you have to do 202 00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:12,400 Speaker 1: this without letting too many people in on the plan. 203 00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:16,520 Speaker 1: So Admiral Godfrey is pretty hot to try about this 204 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:21,200 Speaker 1: trout memo thing because he needs a solution and fast. 205 00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:24,840 Speaker 1: He is aware of an upcoming plan, a different operation 206 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:35,640 Speaker 1: called Operation Husky. The Allied forces are planning to invade 207 00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:38,800 Speaker 1: the island of Sicily, you know, off of Italy, and 208 00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:41,000 Speaker 1: they were worried that it would be tough to pull 209 00:12:41,160 --> 00:12:44,200 Speaker 1: this off. They said, Okay, we could invade Greece, we 210 00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:47,120 Speaker 1: could invade the Balkans. What what should we do? I 211 00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:49,760 Speaker 1: think the issue with Sicily was that it was just 212 00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:53,200 Speaker 1: a no duck kind of move right where it was 213 00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:56,280 Speaker 1: just the obvious weakness or the obvious you know, point 214 00:12:56,280 --> 00:12:59,280 Speaker 1: of entry and anyone that they said a couple of times, 215 00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:02,120 Speaker 1: like anyone with a could tell you that, so they 216 00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:04,960 Speaker 1: were going to be expected it would have been the 217 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:08,199 Speaker 1: most obvious place. So that's the problem because it's like, 218 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:12,240 Speaker 1: even if it makes the most sense, you're enemy also 219 00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:14,360 Speaker 1: knows that and they're going to act accordingly. So the 220 00:13:14,360 --> 00:13:18,160 Speaker 1: point is they they needed to figure out a way 221 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:20,959 Speaker 1: to make the Germans believe they weren't going to do 222 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:23,280 Speaker 1: the thing. The Germans knew they definitely were going to do. 223 00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:26,640 Speaker 1: How do you do that? Right? Right? Exactly? And that's 224 00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:29,760 Speaker 1: a good way to put it, man, So they already 225 00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:33,040 Speaker 1: kind of knew, and history would prove this. They already 226 00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:37,600 Speaker 1: kind of knew that Access Powers have pretty insidious intelligence capabilities. 227 00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:42,040 Speaker 1: There were tons of spies embedded in any agency you 228 00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:46,400 Speaker 1: can imagine. And they knew that if Access Powers anticipated 229 00:13:46,520 --> 00:13:49,960 Speaker 1: the obvious thing, Operation Husky, because they already did the 230 00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:54,120 Speaker 1: North Africa campaign, so it's not too far to for 231 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:57,400 Speaker 1: their resources to move. They knew that if the Germans 232 00:13:57,440 --> 00:14:00,079 Speaker 1: were anticipating this, it would become a blood bath, it 233 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:05,960 Speaker 1: would probably fail. Winston Churchill, it was basically drunk off 234 00:14:06,040 --> 00:14:09,839 Speaker 1: the success of the North African campaign. Loki possibly also 235 00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:12,320 Speaker 1: actually drunk too. Yeah, I was gonna say Loki just 236 00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:16,440 Speaker 1: in general kind of drunk, and he knew, he knew 237 00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:21,280 Speaker 1: in his calculus that Britain could probably not invade and 238 00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:25,920 Speaker 1: retake France at this time. They needed a more runway, 239 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:29,320 Speaker 1: and he said, okay, look we can maybe He was 240 00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:31,560 Speaker 1: skeptical at first, but he said, we can maybe take 241 00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:36,320 Speaker 1: these North African forces through the Mediterranean into Italy, which 242 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:39,760 Speaker 1: they loved, calling the soft underbelly of Europe. Like they 243 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:41,840 Speaker 1: keep calling it that. It's weird, you know how it 244 00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:43,560 Speaker 1: is like when you're hanging with your friends and you 245 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:46,520 Speaker 1: make up a catchphrase and everybody sort of gets into it. 246 00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:48,760 Speaker 1: Is that sort of a ding against the Italian people, 247 00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:53,280 Speaker 1: implying that they're somehow like soft and and uh and 248 00:14:53,280 --> 00:14:57,080 Speaker 1: and you know, luxuriating in their fine wines and cheeses. 249 00:14:57,400 --> 00:14:59,600 Speaker 1: I don't know, I'm still trying to figure that part out, 250 00:14:59,640 --> 00:15:01,880 Speaker 1: but yeah, they lead, they leaned into that as well. 251 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:06,400 Speaker 1: So everybody's like, fly fishing is war, soft underbellies, Let's 252 00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:11,560 Speaker 1: invade Sicily and to do this. They they're not sure 253 00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:15,560 Speaker 1: if it's actually gonna happen yet. This story hinges on 254 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:19,880 Speaker 1: three people. We're gonna introduce two of them now, military officers, 255 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:28,240 Speaker 1: Charles Cholmley and you and Montague not spells. Not spells 256 00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:32,840 Speaker 1: the way it sounds Charle Mandalay reminds me of some 257 00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:35,680 Speaker 1: counties in Georgia. We've got one called Tomeless. Looks like 258 00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:39,200 Speaker 1: on paper Talia Faroh, but it's apparently pronounced Tolliver or 259 00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:41,640 Speaker 1: something like that. For the law. I mean until I 260 00:15:41,640 --> 00:15:43,040 Speaker 1: heard them stay in the movie. When I was reading 261 00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:46,400 Speaker 1: about this, in my mind, I'm saying out loud, Jarl Mandalay. 262 00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:49,120 Speaker 1: And then when in the movie they start calling this 263 00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:53,760 Speaker 1: dude Cholmley, and I'm like, where's Charl Mandalay? I was 264 00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:57,000 Speaker 1: right there with you. It's kind of like and and 265 00:15:57,080 --> 00:16:00,640 Speaker 1: no offense to our good friends in Massachusetts. It's kind 266 00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:03,720 Speaker 1: of like Worcester. You can't get mad at people for 267 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:06,840 Speaker 1: guessing wrong on that one. But here we are the 268 00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:10,280 Speaker 1: twenty eight suggestion. Chom Lee and Montague run with it. 269 00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:15,800 Speaker 1: The lure in this case is a corpse, not too fresh, 270 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:21,160 Speaker 1: not too stale, I guess, but Goldilocks corpse, right, And 271 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:24,600 Speaker 1: it has to be dressed as you're kind of average 272 00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:29,800 Speaker 1: everyday soldier with that intel, and the originally wanted to 273 00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:32,680 Speaker 1: fake intel to just be in the guy's pockets. The 274 00:16:32,760 --> 00:16:35,880 Speaker 1: whole bit, the whole trick is their idea will be 275 00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:42,680 Speaker 1: that German intelligence in Spain finds these papers and take 276 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:46,920 Speaker 1: them as gospel. If everything works out, enemy forces are 277 00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:50,440 Speaker 1: gonna find this dead guy, They're gonna act on that 278 00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:54,440 Speaker 1: secret info, and they're gonna move their forces away from 279 00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:57,360 Speaker 1: Sicily and this all takes time, right, they can't just 280 00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:01,320 Speaker 1: you know, pop back over. They're gonna move a significant 281 00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:04,920 Speaker 1: amount of the German military and access military forces away 282 00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:08,960 Speaker 1: from Sicily. Then that exposes the soft underbelly of Europe 283 00:17:09,359 --> 00:17:12,960 Speaker 1: and there you know, from then on it's just like 284 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:15,520 Speaker 1: God save the Queen, great job everywhere. Oh way, I 285 00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:18,200 Speaker 1: think I get it. So there's a soft underbelly is 286 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:21,760 Speaker 1: a point of weakness, right like in the Hobbit, you 287 00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:24,600 Speaker 1: know how like small had that one little area that 288 00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:26,879 Speaker 1: like was like what they call it, like naked as 289 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:30,240 Speaker 1: a snail without a shell or something like that. I 290 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:33,359 Speaker 1: think maybe that's what they're referring to Sicily as like 291 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:36,760 Speaker 1: just a weak point, so a soft underbelly, implying that 292 00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:39,879 Speaker 1: like even if everything else is armored, you know that 293 00:17:40,359 --> 00:17:42,960 Speaker 1: that if that soft underbelly is exposed, and that could 294 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:45,639 Speaker 1: be like a kill shot for all of Europe. And 295 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:46,920 Speaker 1: did you kind of jump in here? I mean you 296 00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:49,520 Speaker 1: gotta think about this point in nine, Like Germany is 297 00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:53,080 Speaker 1: still kind of like an unstoppable machine, while like Italy 298 00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:55,560 Speaker 1: and all their operations are just like tripping over themselves 299 00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:59,280 Speaker 1: and faith planning and eating cheeses. Fine, cheeses and wines. Yes, 300 00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:01,720 Speaker 1: like they were not doing very well this war. No, 301 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:06,280 Speaker 1: they were. That's that's very, very true. And this, this 302 00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:10,720 Speaker 1: fake out itself, is not a super original idea, just 303 00:18:10,760 --> 00:18:15,760 Speaker 1: the idea of faking people with bad intel. It's happened before. 304 00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:19,560 Speaker 1: It's happened so often in the world of intelligence that 305 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:21,359 Speaker 1: by this point I had a street name. It was 306 00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:26,679 Speaker 1: known as the Haversack Ruse. But charm Lee and our 307 00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:31,240 Speaker 1: boy Montague they need a fresh body. And charm Lee 308 00:18:31,280 --> 00:18:33,560 Speaker 1: has his own spin on the trout memo. He calls 309 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:37,560 Speaker 1: it the Trojan Horse. Shout out to Dennis Smith, authored 310 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:41,879 Speaker 1: Deathly Deception, The Real Story of Operation Minced Meat. Thanks 311 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:47,440 Speaker 1: to Smith, we have chom Lee's real life description of this. Noal, 312 00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:50,919 Speaker 1: I know we both love leaning into a real a 313 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:53,359 Speaker 1: real chewy British accent. You want to give this one 314 00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:57,720 Speaker 1: a shot, man? Oh? Why not? Let's see. A body 315 00:18:57,880 --> 00:19:01,840 Speaker 1: is obtained from one of the London hospitals. The lungs 316 00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:05,159 Speaker 1: are filled with Walter and documents are disposed in an 317 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:08,760 Speaker 1: inside pocket. The party is then dropped by a Coastal 318 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:13,960 Speaker 1: Command aircraft. On being found, the supposition in the enemy's 319 00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:17,480 Speaker 1: mind may well be that one of our aircraft has 320 00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:21,439 Speaker 1: either been shot or falced down, and that this is 321 00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:26,320 Speaker 1: one of their passengers. Love it. All the Brits down 322 00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:29,360 Speaker 1: the audience are cringing right now, and I am here 323 00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:31,480 Speaker 1: for it. I'm here for I love all of you 324 00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:34,720 Speaker 1: so much. Yeah, and you know we would love to 325 00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:39,000 Speaker 1: We would love to do our own adaptation of Operation 326 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:42,080 Speaker 1: Mincemeat and Maxnell. Maybe at the end we can we 327 00:19:42,119 --> 00:19:44,600 Speaker 1: can figure out who we're going to cast as ourselves. 328 00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:46,960 Speaker 1: Well as speaking of cast, I got I gotta stay 329 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:50,159 Speaker 1: in point now. Um, this movie really great. Cast Charles 330 00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:54,640 Speaker 1: McFadden or mcfaddion who I think we all who plays Charmley. 331 00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:58,040 Speaker 1: I think we all know him as Tom Walms Gams 332 00:19:58,119 --> 00:20:01,800 Speaker 1: from Succession. Fabulous and he's another one of these British 333 00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:04,480 Speaker 1: actors who, like I just would never have thought was British. 334 00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:06,480 Speaker 1: I mean, I have no reason to worry about her, 335 00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:08,080 Speaker 1: to think about it, but he just pulls off that 336 00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:10,560 Speaker 1: American accent so well. That does not always go the 337 00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:13,320 Speaker 1: other way around when it comes to American actors doing 338 00:20:13,359 --> 00:20:16,480 Speaker 1: British voices. I would not call myself nor I think 339 00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:19,040 Speaker 1: you uh an actor per se, You've don't know you've 340 00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:22,720 Speaker 1: done more acting than I, but as evidence by our 341 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:26,600 Speaker 1: our butchery of the of the English accent. But it's 342 00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:29,520 Speaker 1: really funny when you have, like you know, Kevin Costner 343 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:33,480 Speaker 1: or something vaguely attempting to phone in the slightest of 344 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:35,879 Speaker 1: British accents that sort of comes and goes, you know, 345 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:40,520 Speaker 1: the first ten minutes of Robin Hood Princesses slap. I 346 00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:45,320 Speaker 1: don't really it's great. Yeah, that's dope. But yeah, I 347 00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:48,120 Speaker 1: know exactly what you're talking about. And I would also 348 00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:52,399 Speaker 1: say just to uh to throw a uh an olive 349 00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:56,800 Speaker 1: branch slash bone to our fellow British ridiculous historians. Yes, 350 00:20:56,920 --> 00:21:00,159 Speaker 1: we know. Americans are the ones with the accent. You 351 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:04,720 Speaker 1: guys were there first. Everybody gets it. Even Max is 352 00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:11,359 Speaker 1: nodding solemnly. He's like, I'll allow it, okay, So I 353 00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:13,600 Speaker 1: want to just I just want to bait the picture here, 354 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:16,440 Speaker 1: So Max, I want to put you on spot it. 355 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:18,840 Speaker 1: Max thought about it when I said that, and then 356 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:22,440 Speaker 1: lean forward towards his mike and then kind of give 357 00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:26,800 Speaker 1: a little smile like lean back like not yet, not yet. Yeah, 358 00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:30,040 Speaker 1: Sometimes I just like, am I do I have the 359 00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:32,480 Speaker 1: energy for this fight right now? Do I really have 360 00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:34,680 Speaker 1: the energy for this banet? And this was one of 361 00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:36,520 Speaker 1: the moments I leaned back. I was just like, no, 362 00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:39,159 Speaker 1: I don't, I don't. I will not die on this 363 00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:42,320 Speaker 1: hill today, my friends. I will live to fight another 364 00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:45,400 Speaker 1: But Ben didn't they have like a special hook up 365 00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:48,520 Speaker 1: like to get these bodies, like they had like a 366 00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:53,880 Speaker 1: body guy, right, yeah, yeah, they have a body guy eventually, 367 00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:58,600 Speaker 1: because first Cholmley pitches this to his buds Am I 368 00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:01,600 Speaker 1: five and it's any committee who are running all this 369 00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:04,520 Speaker 1: double agents, and they're not super convinced. It's like November 370 00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:09,800 Speaker 1: two and they essentially tell him, dude, there's absolutely no 371 00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:12,960 Speaker 1: way this will work that. I like where your heads at. 372 00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:17,240 Speaker 1: I like the way you think about things, and we 373 00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:20,800 Speaker 1: need to attach this, you know, keep go back to 374 00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:23,760 Speaker 1: the drawing board, keep your original idea. Let's punch it up. 375 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:28,120 Speaker 1: And that's when you and Montague comes in. He's naval intelligence, 376 00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:31,360 Speaker 1: he's in charge of counter espionage and he's gonna work 377 00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:34,480 Speaker 1: with Chomley. They go through the details and then they 378 00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:38,240 Speaker 1: get a do date. The top brass says this invasion 379 00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:42,520 Speaker 1: of Sicily, Operation Husky has to happen by July of 380 00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:47,800 Speaker 1: ninety three. So TikTok, TikTok, TikTok, find us a dead body. 381 00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:54,679 Speaker 1: And uh, it's weird because everybody kind of knew that 382 00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:57,840 Speaker 1: everyone was spying on each other. They didn't even kind 383 00:22:57,880 --> 00:22:59,520 Speaker 1: of know this. This is the only way they were 384 00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:02,320 Speaker 1: able to pull this off. But they were trying to 385 00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:07,119 Speaker 1: figure out what Adolf Hitler thought. Adolf Hitler was never 386 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:12,320 Speaker 1: a particularly talented strategist, and he was really really focused 387 00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:15,920 Speaker 1: not so much on Sicily, but on the Balkans because 388 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:18,960 Speaker 1: Germany was not a resource rich country. If the war 389 00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:22,960 Speaker 1: machine that was running through Europe was to continue, then 390 00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:26,359 Speaker 1: they needed copper, oil, you name it, all sorts of 391 00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:30,200 Speaker 1: resources from the Balkans. Without it, their war effort would collapse. 392 00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:35,280 Speaker 1: So so the Allies go through this whole dog and 393 00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:39,640 Speaker 1: pony show. They invent another fake operation called Operation Barclay. 394 00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:42,520 Speaker 1: It's meant to convince Germany that the Allies are going 395 00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:46,240 Speaker 1: towards the Balkans. They made up a fictional military formation, 396 00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:49,720 Speaker 1: They did a bunch of fake operations in Syria's like really, 397 00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:53,159 Speaker 1: look at me stuff and just like you said no 398 00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:57,840 Speaker 1: the whole time, our guys chom Lee and Montague are 399 00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:01,160 Speaker 1: like the Resurrection men of the Middle Ages. They're searching 400 00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:05,040 Speaker 1: for that body. They said, okay, yeah, no, we've decided 401 00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:07,600 Speaker 1: it's fine to steal a body, dress it up, and 402 00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:10,360 Speaker 1: throw it somewhere. We don't have a lot of time 403 00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:15,680 Speaker 1: to wax philosophic. Let's make the corpse look convincing. You 404 00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:18,280 Speaker 1: gotta work on a back story. But also, these guys 405 00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:21,399 Speaker 1: are not experts what death looks like. And like you said, 406 00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:25,120 Speaker 1: they're not the type of guys who walk around saying, oh, 407 00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:27,199 Speaker 1: you need a body, I'll get your body. Wait, you 408 00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:29,879 Speaker 1: need it by four. They don't know, No, they don't know. 409 00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:33,320 Speaker 1: They end up connected with somebody at like a morgue 410 00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:36,040 Speaker 1: of some kind I believe right like they have direct 411 00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:39,359 Speaker 1: access to. So they had to make the scenario you know, 412 00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:43,080 Speaker 1: under which this person's body was found believable. So it 413 00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:46,680 Speaker 1: couldn't be like some sort of you know, grizzly death. 414 00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:49,080 Speaker 1: You know that where where there was like mingling or 415 00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:51,159 Speaker 1: mutilation of any kind needed to be a body with 416 00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:53,639 Speaker 1: very few marks on it would have been someone that 417 00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:56,199 Speaker 1: had gone down on a plane, presumably crashed into the 418 00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:59,280 Speaker 1: ocean in the open ocean, uh, and then drowned. And 419 00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:01,920 Speaker 1: then you know, I was wondering would they have then 420 00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:05,520 Speaker 1: you know, looked for the plane to confirm, But Max 421 00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:08,520 Speaker 1: and and then off air pointed out that which would 422 00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:10,680 Speaker 1: have been too much, too too many resources would have 423 00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:12,560 Speaker 1: been required to do that. There were other ways they 424 00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:15,720 Speaker 1: could have confirmed the validity of this this person's you know, 425 00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:19,040 Speaker 1: credentials and if this was a real British soldier. So 426 00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:22,600 Speaker 1: the body they got was a guy who had recently 427 00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:28,159 Speaker 1: been discovered um dead of from ingesting rat poison in 428 00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:34,239 Speaker 1: a warehouse. Um presumably a suicide. Um. There certainly are 429 00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:36,879 Speaker 1: scenarios or maybe it was accidents, you know, he accidentally 430 00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:40,040 Speaker 1: rat poison or would already got mixed into his rations. 431 00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:43,479 Speaker 1: Because this was a time of super austerity. I kind 432 00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:46,440 Speaker 1: of forgot about that until watching this and this film, 433 00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:49,640 Speaker 1: remembering that, like you know, the blitz was was just 434 00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:52,160 Speaker 1: over the horizon every single day, so it was like 435 00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:55,000 Speaker 1: there there was power outages, you know, people life did 436 00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:57,679 Speaker 1: go on. There certainly were high society things that took place, 437 00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:01,119 Speaker 1: but in general, the general pop reulation was eating like 438 00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:04,199 Speaker 1: you know, spam and like rations and like you know, um, 439 00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:05,800 Speaker 1: what do you call those things? M R E s 440 00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:09,320 Speaker 1: and stuff? Right, Yeah, food was being rationed. It was 441 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:12,720 Speaker 1: a serious concern and a lot of people were dying. 442 00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:19,000 Speaker 1: So it's weird. Then from Cholmley and Montague's perspective, we'll 443 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:22,879 Speaker 1: call him the Chomster and Monty. Yeah, okay, So so 444 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:26,000 Speaker 1: the Chomster and Monty are in a weird situation because 445 00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:29,440 Speaker 1: they're saying, this is a huge war, their bodies everywhere. 446 00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:33,120 Speaker 1: How come, how come we have to search so so 447 00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:36,280 Speaker 1: ardently for the right one. They get helped by with 448 00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:41,800 Speaker 1: two people. One is a pathologist named Sir Bernard Spillsbury, 449 00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:45,320 Speaker 1: and he says, all right, here's how you make it 450 00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:49,040 Speaker 1: look like someone died the right way. He pointed out, 451 00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:51,520 Speaker 1: and I didn't know this, that people when they die 452 00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:55,000 Speaker 1: in plane crashes over water are often going to die 453 00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:58,119 Speaker 1: of shock instead of drowning, and that means their lungs 454 00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:01,199 Speaker 1: might not necessarily fill up with water. And then he 455 00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:06,120 Speaker 1: had a hot take. I'm not I'm not a pathologist myself. 456 00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:09,760 Speaker 1: Here's what he said. He said, you know, if we're 457 00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:13,600 Speaker 1: talking about Spanish people finding him, Spanish folks are all Catholic, 458 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:17,080 Speaker 1: and Catholics don't like doing post mortems unless it's a 459 00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:20,600 Speaker 1: really big deal. So we can kind of get away 460 00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:24,160 Speaker 1: with a body that's died in any number of fashions, 461 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:27,959 Speaker 1: and you know, it could be anybody's guest, especially if 462 00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:30,080 Speaker 1: the body has been in the ocean for a few days. 463 00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:33,680 Speaker 1: So that's what leads them to hook up with their 464 00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:41,760 Speaker 1: resurrection man, their corpsman. He's a quarter named Bentley Purchase January. Yeah, 465 00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:47,919 Speaker 1: the britishness of these names just characters and Toast of 466 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:51,760 Speaker 1: London or something Bentley oh, Ray purchase. That's why Ray 467 00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:57,000 Speaker 1: bloody purchase, Bentley Purchase. If anyone is I'm sure British 468 00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:00,520 Speaker 1: listeners are instantly familiar. But the new season of Toast 469 00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:04,200 Speaker 1: is uh. He goes stateside Toast of Tinseltown and it's 470 00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:06,480 Speaker 1: just a delight with Matt Berry's one of my favorite 471 00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:10,879 Speaker 1: human beings in the world. So this His music is great. 472 00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:13,880 Speaker 1: He makes these very non ironic kind of mean maybe 473 00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:16,680 Speaker 1: they're a little ironic, but I would say pretty straight, 474 00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:20,199 Speaker 1: kind of like sixties psychedelic folk records that are like 475 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:22,520 Speaker 1: super good. He's what I got one called Kill the 476 00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:25,760 Speaker 1: Wolf and another one um. And the covers are great. 477 00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:29,680 Speaker 1: They're like him posing with like a you know, so 478 00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:32,320 Speaker 1: so good. But in any case, yeah, they like to 479 00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:35,080 Speaker 1: your point bend. They found this corpseman who was the 480 00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:40,840 Speaker 1: corner at a medical you know, government morgue essentially, and 481 00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:42,560 Speaker 1: he's like, I got the guy for you. The dude 482 00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:45,400 Speaker 1: I was talking about, who was a not well off 483 00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:48,680 Speaker 1: person who has just suffered from some mental illness, had 484 00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:51,560 Speaker 1: been on the streets. In the film, we later see 485 00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:54,120 Speaker 1: a family member of his kind of surface. This is 486 00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:58,320 Speaker 1: a guy named Glendware Michael, another fabulously British and that 487 00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:02,040 Speaker 1: actually sounds almost like well doesn't glindwere with the with 488 00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:04,320 Speaker 1: the W and the R. But his body looked good. 489 00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:08,040 Speaker 1: There are some really fun macab bits in the film though, 490 00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:11,200 Speaker 1: because you do see them trying to pose this dead 491 00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:14,200 Speaker 1: body in like his military garb for like they need 492 00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:17,360 Speaker 1: to do like an I D. Badge photo. Uh, and 493 00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:21,360 Speaker 1: you know a corpse, A corpse doesn't really pose, you know. 494 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:25,560 Speaker 1: And there's some one particularly amazingly Macab shot where they 495 00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:28,280 Speaker 1: try to make him smile and it just it looks great. 496 00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:30,440 Speaker 1: Whatever they did to make I don't know how they 497 00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:32,400 Speaker 1: did that exactly with the way the body moves. It 498 00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:35,080 Speaker 1: must be prosthetics, but it looked like something out of 499 00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:37,960 Speaker 1: Night Living Dead. Um. But it was just you know, 500 00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:40,360 Speaker 1: they're kind of just like fumbling with it, and his 501 00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:43,480 Speaker 1: head keeps flopping over and stuff. So they realized, okay, 502 00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:45,600 Speaker 1: this is a good work. We need to Now we've 503 00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:47,440 Speaker 1: found a body that fits the bill. Now we have 504 00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:51,360 Speaker 1: to find a live body that somewhat resembles this man 505 00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:55,120 Speaker 1: so we can get a photo to have, you know, 506 00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:57,800 Speaker 1: on him as his military idea. By the way, they 507 00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:10,120 Speaker 1: dubbed this character this creation Major William Martin. Right earlier, 508 00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:12,920 Speaker 1: I said, they're kind of three main characters of this story. 509 00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:19,160 Speaker 1: Glindware Michael, known as Major William Martin is our third man. 510 00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:22,440 Speaker 1: It feels like a noir reference. You can find a 511 00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:26,720 Speaker 1: photo just what you're describing on online if you wish. 512 00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:30,600 Speaker 1: Ridiculous historians, it is grizzly be warned, but it's off 513 00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:33,880 Speaker 1: to the races. They've got the documents, they've they've you know, 514 00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:40,080 Speaker 1: happiest corpuses. They have the body, and on April they 515 00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:43,360 Speaker 1: take action because Bentley Purchase has told them, look, I 516 00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:46,480 Speaker 1: can keep this guy on ice, but at best I 517 00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:48,560 Speaker 1: can give you three months, or else he will have 518 00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:53,320 Speaker 1: just decayed too far to be useful. So that's why 519 00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:55,520 Speaker 1: they ship him off. Then in April, and they still 520 00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:59,600 Speaker 1: got that July taking time bomb there that deadline. The 521 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:03,880 Speaker 1: cap into a submarine called h M. S. Sarah has 522 00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:07,280 Speaker 1: his crew pushed this body into the sea and they 523 00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:10,000 Speaker 1: push it in the direction of the tide and they 524 00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:14,880 Speaker 1: actually used the submarines propellers to help move the body 525 00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:17,680 Speaker 1: and what they hope is the right direction. I want 526 00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:21,560 Speaker 1: to shout out the captain of that sub Lieutenant Norman Jewel, 527 00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:26,400 Speaker 1: who had the decency to stage something like a funeral service. 528 00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:30,200 Speaker 1: He read the thirty ninth Psalm, which begins talking about 529 00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:33,800 Speaker 1: the power of silence, and that's the only funeral that 530 00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:38,480 Speaker 1: Michael actually gets. The body washes ashore on the Spanish 531 00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:43,200 Speaker 1: coast near a city called Huilva, and this is exactly 532 00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:46,640 Speaker 1: where they wanted it to go because they knew, right 533 00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:50,600 Speaker 1: even though Spain was like quote unquote neutral, everybody knew 534 00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:54,240 Speaker 1: the British spies were their allied spies. German spies are there, 535 00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:59,520 Speaker 1: and they said, okay, just like preserve this so that 536 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:03,040 Speaker 1: the papers are still legible. We can't put it in 537 00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:05,680 Speaker 1: the stud pockets. We have to put it in a briefcase. 538 00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:09,360 Speaker 1: So they attach a briefcase to him and it's what's 539 00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:12,640 Speaker 1: the amazing term they used for pocket trash. I think 540 00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:17,320 Speaker 1: it's like wallet litter, like, like, I really like it. 541 00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:20,160 Speaker 1: There's so many of these bespoke, little kind of like 542 00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:23,480 Speaker 1: niche terms that they throw around and in this film 543 00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:25,920 Speaker 1: that that are a lot of fun. I'm I'm serious, 544 00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:27,760 Speaker 1: you know, Just just to just to put this out there. 545 00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:31,800 Speaker 1: Netflix did not sponsor this episode. We just genuinely liked 546 00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:34,880 Speaker 1: the movie and thought it was worth talking about, and 547 00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:36,600 Speaker 1: it gave us a topic that we hadn't really thought 548 00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:39,160 Speaker 1: about that we hadn't done. So definitely go check out 549 00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:40,920 Speaker 1: the movie. I don't think we're spoiling too much of it. 550 00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:44,440 Speaker 1: Even if you know the story, it's still the dramatization. 551 00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:47,480 Speaker 1: There's definitely a lot of schmaltzing all this stuff up 552 00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:50,760 Speaker 1: for the purposes of of of cinema, and I honestly 553 00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:53,280 Speaker 1: they don't ever go too terribly far. A couple of 554 00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:55,880 Speaker 1: things made me cringe a little bit, like a bit 555 00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:58,960 Speaker 1: of a overdone love story angle, But in general, I 556 00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:01,880 Speaker 1: think we all three to enjoy the film. Jason Isaacs 557 00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:05,600 Speaker 1: is amazing. We were talking about that off air. Yeah, 558 00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:07,920 Speaker 1: and I love I love Colin first to call it 559 00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:11,080 Speaker 1: if you're hearing this, man, Great job, Great job dude. 560 00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:15,400 Speaker 1: And Jason Isaacs, you're hearing this. I love you. He's dreaming. Man. 561 00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:18,360 Speaker 1: Look at those big baby blues. God, you can just 562 00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:20,920 Speaker 1: swim in them. They're so piercing. As a man with 563 00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:26,280 Speaker 1: piercing blue eyes, I can appreciate piercing blue eyes. Regnize me. 564 00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:29,920 Speaker 1: There we go. Thelled it all right, Max. We're gonna 565 00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:32,440 Speaker 1: see if we can get you and Jason to hang 566 00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:34,680 Speaker 1: out together. You know. Oh. He was in the Death 567 00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:38,520 Speaker 1: of Stalin, which is another movie that I think ridiculous 568 00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:41,440 Speaker 1: historians would absolutely love. If you haven't seen it, that 569 00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:45,200 Speaker 1: is a cool movie and another really fun dramatization of 570 00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:49,360 Speaker 1: some really heavy historical stuff but played completely straight, where 571 00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:52,200 Speaker 1: it's like nobody has a Russian accent in the movie. 572 00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:56,400 Speaker 1: It's all just like everyone themselves and it's Steve. It's 573 00:33:56,520 --> 00:34:01,680 Speaker 1: just Steve. It's right. That's that's American acting, you know. 574 00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:05,960 Speaker 1: But if you were a German spy there in Spain 575 00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:10,440 Speaker 1: and you saw this, these papers, then they would look 576 00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:15,400 Speaker 1: legit because it's a very clever counterfeiting move. The people 577 00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:18,279 Speaker 1: who made the fake papers are the same people who 578 00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:23,120 Speaker 1: make the real papers, so they're making their own counterfeits. 579 00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:26,000 Speaker 1: You would not be able to tell the difference without 580 00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:31,200 Speaker 1: more information. A fisherman finds and retrieves quote unquote Martin's body, 581 00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:35,520 Speaker 1: and then of course it makes it to German intelligence 582 00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:38,080 Speaker 1: in the city. They look at this and they say, 583 00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:42,080 Speaker 1: holy smokes, that's where the Brits are going. They're faking 584 00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:45,360 Speaker 1: us out. You know, Sicily's too obvious. They're coming for 585 00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:49,360 Speaker 1: Greece and Sardinia. We gotta get moving. I mean, I 586 00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:51,120 Speaker 1: also want to make sure we give credit to the 587 00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:54,200 Speaker 1: other members of the twenty who you know, trumped up 588 00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:58,080 Speaker 1: all of this incredibly detailed backstory for this man. It 589 00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:00,680 Speaker 1: was really like, you know, writer's room. It was no 590 00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:03,400 Speaker 1: wonder the writing and you know, being novelists such a 591 00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:06,400 Speaker 1: theme in the movie because these people were responsible for 592 00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:10,760 Speaker 1: creating believable fictions. They gave him a love interest named 593 00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:15,080 Speaker 1: what was it, guys, Pam Pam. There's a snapshot of 594 00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:18,319 Speaker 1: his fiance on his person and they make a point 595 00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:20,200 Speaker 1: to like, no, no, no. The picture of Pam goes 596 00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:22,239 Speaker 1: in his breast pocket because he keeps it close to 597 00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:24,160 Speaker 1: his heart, you know what I mean, stuff like that. 598 00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:26,160 Speaker 1: You know, there's a love letter that he keeps on 599 00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:29,279 Speaker 1: him as well, and also I believe a receipt for 600 00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:32,520 Speaker 1: a wedding ring. Yeah, you know, so like it was 601 00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:34,520 Speaker 1: one of these things where it's like, i'll you know, 602 00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:35,960 Speaker 1: the love letters says that in like it was it 603 00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:37,839 Speaker 1: was such a shame that we were to meet during 604 00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:40,480 Speaker 1: the war or else would surely be married by now. 605 00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:43,160 Speaker 1: And it's all really it goes through all these revisions too, 606 00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:45,280 Speaker 1: where like you know, all of the m I six 607 00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:48,000 Speaker 1: and MY five, Churchill's Office and all of that, they 608 00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:50,480 Speaker 1: all get their hands in the pie kind of rewriting 609 00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:52,919 Speaker 1: and and second guessing everything. At the end of the day, 610 00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:56,520 Speaker 1: all of this stuff is found along with these documents 611 00:35:56,520 --> 00:36:00,759 Speaker 1: in this case that tell this tale right in the 612 00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:03,480 Speaker 1: most kind of obfuscating ways. It wasn't it would. It 613 00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:05,360 Speaker 1: would have taken them a minute to kind of have 614 00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:08,239 Speaker 1: to figure out what was going on. And not only that, 615 00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:14,120 Speaker 1: they then continued the ruse by using unsecured lines they 616 00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:18,919 Speaker 1: knew were being monitored by German intelligence and saying how 617 00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:22,399 Speaker 1: worried they were that their man had been found and 618 00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:24,960 Speaker 1: of of the sensitive nature of the papers that he 619 00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:28,439 Speaker 1: was carrying. Right, Yeah, it was. It was a huge deal. 620 00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:31,560 Speaker 1: There's a lot of acting there too, because they he 621 00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:34,759 Speaker 1: also has like a letter from his father, ticket stubs, 622 00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:37,719 Speaker 1: you can tell he bought a fancy shirt recently, a 623 00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:41,680 Speaker 1: hotel bill, all this stuff, and they really really really 624 00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:46,479 Speaker 1: put some work into making it plausible. And I would 625 00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:52,080 Speaker 1: argue that the communications that were, you know, being monitored. 626 00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:56,239 Speaker 1: We're probably the clincher for German forces, right because if 627 00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:59,680 Speaker 1: this guy was carrying secret papers he's this important, then 628 00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:04,359 Speaker 1: of course British intelligence will worry about them. If they 629 00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:08,000 Speaker 1: hadn't done that little part of the song and dance, 630 00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:12,040 Speaker 1: then Germany may have figured out the bruise. But it worked, 631 00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:16,000 Speaker 1: it seemed successful. Invasion of Sicily began on July nine. 632 00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:21,480 Speaker 1: It went until August. The German military, because they fell 633 00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:24,000 Speaker 1: for this con game, had already moved a big part 634 00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:27,080 Speaker 1: of their forces degrease. This would prove to be the 635 00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:31,440 Speaker 1: first foray in The Italian Campaign, also known as the 636 00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:35,960 Speaker 1: Liberation of Italy, continued till leading to the death of 637 00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:40,279 Speaker 1: Benito Mussolini, which is still kind of mystery. Historians will 638 00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:44,440 Speaker 1: debate the official narrative about that. You remember, Benito Mussolini 639 00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:48,240 Speaker 1: felt ridiculous historians, he was that guy who, among other things, 640 00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:52,240 Speaker 1: was super into the idea of wearing milk. I'm sorry 641 00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:58,719 Speaker 1: wearing milk, Benito Mussolini, He's the wearable milk. It was 642 00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:02,800 Speaker 1: like it was like a more sustainable kind of plastic essentially, 643 00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:05,840 Speaker 1: would like it almost was like think of craft singles 644 00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:07,920 Speaker 1: or something that you could, like, you know, stitch together 645 00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:12,080 Speaker 1: and cover your body with. Yes, So check out that episode. 646 00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:13,879 Speaker 1: I think we all had a blast on that one. 647 00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:17,279 Speaker 1: And at this point we have to ask what can 648 00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:20,440 Speaker 1: we learn from this? I mean, Operation Mincemeat shows us 649 00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:24,680 Speaker 1: kind of the ethical quandaries of the greater good and 650 00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:30,480 Speaker 1: also Glindware Michael had no informed consent, He didn't have 651 00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:35,280 Speaker 1: any say in his second posthumous identity. Yeah, and the film, 652 00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:37,560 Speaker 1: I I don't know how dramatized this was. But his 653 00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:40,279 Speaker 1: sister I don't remember how she gets wind of it 654 00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:44,880 Speaker 1: exactly because it was so hush hush, But she comes 655 00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:47,359 Speaker 1: into the office and like, you know, makes a big 656 00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:51,520 Speaker 1: fuss and says, you know, uh, I think she went 657 00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:53,400 Speaker 1: to the corner because you know, there's a lot of 658 00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:55,640 Speaker 1: people like who didn't understand where the body went. That 659 00:38:55,680 --> 00:38:58,520 Speaker 1: makes sense somehow she ended up in the presence of 660 00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:01,319 Speaker 1: our our main characters, you know, doing a shame on 661 00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:04,600 Speaker 1: you type situation and like how poor you know, Glendware 662 00:39:04,719 --> 00:39:06,520 Speaker 1: never had a say in this and all the you know, 663 00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:08,719 Speaker 1: because I mean, these are deeply religious people, and like, 664 00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:11,520 Speaker 1: you know, the idea of what they're doing is desecrating 665 00:39:11,560 --> 00:39:14,360 Speaker 1: a corpse, you know, like uh, I mean, there's a 666 00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:16,880 Speaker 1: scene in the movie when the when the the Spanish 667 00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:18,600 Speaker 1: do get ahold of the body and they do do 668 00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:22,320 Speaker 1: that autopsy. It is foul, like they're like pulling his 669 00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:25,520 Speaker 1: guts out. It looked like freaking you know, sausages. It's 670 00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:27,600 Speaker 1: a really and then like one of the reasons they 671 00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:30,680 Speaker 1: didn't go deeper into conducting the autopsy to see the 672 00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:34,120 Speaker 1: cause of death was because it was just so foul smelling. 673 00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:37,279 Speaker 1: You've got like one Spanish officer like vomiting, and the 674 00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:40,719 Speaker 1: scene another Macaw piece of you know, cinema. There's there's 675 00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:42,799 Speaker 1: a couple of moments like that in the movie, but 676 00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:46,759 Speaker 1: it is one of those weighing kind of situations where yeah, 677 00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:50,440 Speaker 1: they know what they're doing isn't great, but it was 678 00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:52,720 Speaker 1: it was like the only thing they thought would actually 679 00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:54,760 Speaker 1: you know, for lack of a better way of putting 680 00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:57,239 Speaker 1: it saved the world. It was World War two. And 681 00:39:57,560 --> 00:40:01,160 Speaker 1: you're right, Max, I mean the Nazis were killing machine. 682 00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:05,480 Speaker 1: They were a precision engineered killing machine, just like ripping 683 00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:08,000 Speaker 1: their way across Europe. And if Hitler had had his way, 684 00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:11,000 Speaker 1: he would have taken it even further than that. Yeah, 685 00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:14,880 Speaker 1: and and also you know there's so many conundrums with 686 00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:19,480 Speaker 1: this ethical philosophical conundrums. Yes, mince Meat played a role 687 00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:22,840 Speaker 1: in the ultimate Allied victory of World War Two, but 688 00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:26,239 Speaker 1: it's also important to remember that when the invasion of 689 00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:31,400 Speaker 1: Sicily happened successfully, Allied forces were committing war crimes against 690 00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:35,920 Speaker 1: innocent Sicilian citizens. And that's that's a story that doesn't 691 00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:40,360 Speaker 1: often get told. But what we're seeing is creativity under 692 00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:44,239 Speaker 1: desperate circumstances. Not for nothing is necessity called the mother 693 00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:50,080 Speaker 1: of invention. And when driven to extreme means, people who 694 00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:54,440 Speaker 1: consider themselves the good guys will do very shady things. 695 00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:58,200 Speaker 1: So check out Operation Mincemeat. We thought it was a 696 00:40:58,239 --> 00:41:02,319 Speaker 1: fantastic adaptation again, and it's based on some great work 697 00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:07,080 Speaker 1: by the historian Ben McIntyre. Ian Fleming plays a role 698 00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:11,440 Speaker 1: and still went on to create the James Bond novels 699 00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:14,080 Speaker 1: as you said, nol pulling a lot from real life. 700 00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:16,719 Speaker 1: This is just a wild one. I can't wait to 701 00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:22,000 Speaker 1: I can't wait to hear more about obscure weird operations completely. 702 00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:24,400 Speaker 1: And then we we sort of scratched the stores of 703 00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:27,520 Speaker 1: this earlier. But um, it was in fact Ian Fleming 704 00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:31,400 Speaker 1: who wrote the trout memo and the idea for you know, 705 00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:36,080 Speaker 1: the body came from you know, a detective novel like again, 706 00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:37,880 Speaker 1: we don't know exactly which one, but it was specifically 707 00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:41,439 Speaker 1: a Noirrish type detective novel where you know, this would 708 00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:44,400 Speaker 1: have been like a ruse of some kind perpetrated by 709 00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:46,680 Speaker 1: a criminal to cover their tracks, you know, or like 710 00:41:46,680 --> 00:41:49,960 Speaker 1: a twist in like a drawing room murder mystery. You know, 711 00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:53,160 Speaker 1: yeah it was. It was a book by a guy 712 00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:58,360 Speaker 1: named Basil Thompson. But yes, we saw fiction become fact. 713 00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:02,440 Speaker 1: This is such an nuts story. And you know, I 714 00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:04,840 Speaker 1: don't know, are you guys world War two history buffs 715 00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:08,439 Speaker 1: at all? I'm a fan. I wouldn't say I'm enough 716 00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:11,719 Speaker 1: to consider myself abuff, but I know enough to be dangerous, 717 00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:14,920 Speaker 1: I guess. But I definitely find it fascinating because I mean, 718 00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:18,120 Speaker 1: it was such an all encompassing conflict that really just 719 00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:20,359 Speaker 1: you know, kind of came on the tales of World 720 00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:24,000 Speaker 1: War One and so many things that connected to and uh, 721 00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:26,560 Speaker 1: it really was something that could have absolutely just changed 722 00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:30,680 Speaker 1: the course of civilization, you know. Um, so this was 723 00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:33,920 Speaker 1: a kind of like winner take all kind of gambit 724 00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:37,400 Speaker 1: and they won because it worked. Yeah. No, I I 725 00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:40,400 Speaker 1: consider myself a World War two fan, not abuff. I 726 00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:42,640 Speaker 1: mean most of it comes from you know, watching banda 727 00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:46,839 Speaker 1: Brothers repeat from like aged twelve to age seven, So 728 00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:50,319 Speaker 1: I'd probably say that's where my love World War two, 729 00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:52,960 Speaker 1: okay from, But to north Point, I mean it's just 730 00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:58,160 Speaker 1: such a I don't just massive part of history, especially 731 00:42:58,280 --> 00:43:00,840 Speaker 1: like the culmination of things before and to what we 732 00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:03,120 Speaker 1: are still going through nowadays. So I like looking at 733 00:43:03,160 --> 00:43:07,000 Speaker 1: it in that way. Totally agreed, and we hope that 734 00:43:07,040 --> 00:43:11,359 Speaker 1: you enjoyed this exploration as well. Fellow ridiculous historians. Let 735 00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:16,279 Speaker 1: us know what some of your favorite strange stories from 736 00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:18,560 Speaker 1: times of war are. We can't wait to hear from 737 00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:21,280 Speaker 1: you in the meantime. Thanks so much to our super producer, 738 00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:24,319 Speaker 1: Mr Max Williams. Thinks as well to Alex Williams, who 739 00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:27,799 Speaker 1: can pose this slapping Bob Christophrostodas, who actually is the 740 00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:29,480 Speaker 1: one that brought us this idea in the first place, 741 00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:32,239 Speaker 1: in niptops to this movie here in Spirit soon to 742 00:43:32,280 --> 00:43:34,960 Speaker 1: be here in the Digital Flesh. That sounds weird, that 743 00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:38,080 Speaker 1: sounds like some kinky Stephen King. It's like a nineties 744 00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:43,799 Speaker 1: Sci five film, exactly digital. Long live the Digital Flesh. 745 00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:46,719 Speaker 1: Who else? He's Jeff Codes, also your spirit, Miss Eves. 746 00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:49,200 Speaker 1: She's the best And thanks to you, Ben, This one 747 00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:51,480 Speaker 1: could have been a real downer, but I think we 748 00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:56,359 Speaker 1: we navigated these these choppy international waters um with with 749 00:43:56,440 --> 00:44:01,000 Speaker 1: grace and humor and terrible British accents. Yeah, man, agreed, 750 00:44:01,040 --> 00:44:04,560 Speaker 1: back at it, And what would this show be without 751 00:44:04,680 --> 00:44:09,080 Speaker 1: terrible accents. It certainly wouldn't be ridiculous, which is the 752 00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:11,840 Speaker 1: whole reason we started this crazy thing in the first place. 753 00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:21,319 Speaker 1: It's true and we'll see you next time. Flixed. For 754 00:44:21,400 --> 00:44:23,560 Speaker 1: more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the I Heart 755 00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:26,440 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your 756 00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:27,240 Speaker 1: favorite shows.