1
00:00:02,990 --> 00:00:06,070
Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio.

2
00:00:13,490 --> 00:00:15,890
Speaker 2: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name

3
00:00:16,070 --> 00:00:16,710
Speaker 2: is Robert Lamb.

4
00:00:17,180 --> 00:00:21,320
Speaker 3: And I am Joe McCormick. And on today's Halloween-themed episode

5
00:00:21,430 --> 00:00:23,099
Speaker 3: of Stuff to Blow Your Mind, we're going to be

6
00:00:23,140 --> 00:00:26,140
Speaker 3: talking about creatures without faces.

7
00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:33,150
Speaker 2: That's right. Uh... ghosts without faces, monsters without faces, whatever

8
00:00:33,170 --> 00:00:36,850
Speaker 2: the case may be. This is, of course, a common

9
00:00:36,870 --> 00:00:40,800
Speaker 2: enough trope in the world of monsters and ghosts and

10
00:00:40,909 --> 00:00:45,380
Speaker 2: also nightmares and dreams. So we'll definitely touch on some

11
00:00:45,420 --> 00:00:50,640
Speaker 2: of the pop cultural uses of this visual as we

12
00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:54,450
Speaker 2: get further into the episode. But also, you know, after

13
00:00:54,530 --> 00:00:57,970
Speaker 2: everything's said and done, Certainly, we want to allow listeners

14
00:00:58,010 --> 00:01:01,150
Speaker 2: to write in with their favorite example of the faceless.

15
00:01:02,110 --> 00:01:06,200
Speaker 2: But before we, I guess, dive into discussing specific faceless entities,

16
00:01:06,780 --> 00:01:08,920
Speaker 2: probably a good time to remind ourselves exactly what a

17
00:01:08,980 --> 00:01:14,360
Speaker 2: human face is. It is, of course, the largely forward-loaded

18
00:01:14,420 --> 00:01:17,890
Speaker 2: array of perception organs for the human body, a thing

19
00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:21,880
Speaker 2: our body points at other things. to look at them,

20
00:01:22,100 --> 00:01:26,940
Speaker 2: smell them, even taste them at closer distance. Our ears,

21
00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:30,050
Speaker 2: despite being on the sides of our heads, are essentially

22
00:01:30,290 --> 00:01:33,690
Speaker 2: faced forward as well, both via their conical shape and

23
00:01:33,709 --> 00:01:36,430
Speaker 2: the way hearing sensory data is processed in the brain.

24
00:01:36,450 --> 00:01:41,809
Speaker 3: So the face is sort of the interaction engine. You

25
00:01:41,870 --> 00:01:45,480
Speaker 3: turn the face toward things in order to interact with

26
00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:50,110
Speaker 3: them in most senses. There are some exceptions, but that's like, Generally,

27
00:01:50,170 --> 00:01:53,420
Speaker 3: if something is getting your attention for one reason or another,

28
00:01:53,450 --> 00:01:55,910
Speaker 3: that's an orientation of the face toward it.

29
00:01:56,280 --> 00:01:58,860
Speaker 2: Yeah, we think of like I looked at it or I,

30
00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:01,020
Speaker 2: you know, we think of it very much as an

31
00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:03,260
Speaker 2: eye action. But if we think of our body as

32
00:02:03,320 --> 00:02:06,760
Speaker 2: this thing that's interacting with the world, then the head

33
00:02:06,820 --> 00:02:09,420
Speaker 2: is the part of the thing that like is angled

34
00:02:09,620 --> 00:02:11,760
Speaker 2: at whatever we're trying to perceive.

35
00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:12,380
Speaker 1: Yeah.

36
00:02:12,980 --> 00:02:14,860
Speaker 2: On top of this, of course, our face is also

37
00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:18,940
Speaker 2: a communication array that allows us to communicate a great

38
00:02:19,020 --> 00:02:22,940
Speaker 2: deal of things to other human beings and to limited extent,

39
00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:26,780
Speaker 2: some non-human entities as well. Like via your facial expressions,

40
00:02:26,820 --> 00:02:30,230
Speaker 2: you can convey things maybe not all that well or

41
00:02:30,410 --> 00:02:35,269
Speaker 2: even correctly to say household pets, primates at the zoo

42
00:02:35,310 --> 00:02:39,240
Speaker 2: and so forth. And the overall system entails a number

43
00:02:39,260 --> 00:02:42,960
Speaker 2: of different things. You have overt universal emotions like smiles,

44
00:02:43,440 --> 00:02:47,919
Speaker 2: lowered brows, and the overall system entails also includes micro

45
00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:50,980
Speaker 2: expressions that may last for half a second, but can

46
00:02:51,020 --> 00:02:56,150
Speaker 2: also convey various bits of information, conversational cues, you know,

47
00:02:56,190 --> 00:02:58,430
Speaker 2: the way that what our face is doing interacts with

48
00:02:58,470 --> 00:03:03,370
Speaker 2: what we're saying. And then also various communication can be

49
00:03:03,410 --> 00:03:07,650
Speaker 2: found in eye contact and gaze. That, of course, on

50
00:03:07,750 --> 00:03:11,070
Speaker 2: top of just human speech, which is a big way

51
00:03:11,130 --> 00:03:14,269
Speaker 2: that we communicate. And then again, that speech is also

52
00:03:15,410 --> 00:03:17,410
Speaker 2: tweaked in ways by what the rest of our face

53
00:03:17,490 --> 00:03:21,790
Speaker 2: is doing. Our face also is totally wrapped up in

54
00:03:21,850 --> 00:03:24,590
Speaker 2: our idea of identity. Again, like it's hard to think

55
00:03:24,650 --> 00:03:26,970
Speaker 2: of like point your face at something, you know, like, no,

56
00:03:27,030 --> 00:03:31,160
Speaker 2: it's like the face is me, right? Like the popular

57
00:03:31,180 --> 00:03:35,040
Speaker 2: website is the book of faces. So this idea that,

58
00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:37,560
Speaker 2: you know, that our face is separate from ourselves is

59
00:03:38,030 --> 00:03:41,750
Speaker 2: very difficult to process in the human mind.

60
00:03:42,530 --> 00:03:45,180
Speaker 3: Yeah, so it's interesting to think of the face as

61
00:03:45,220 --> 00:03:50,520
Speaker 3: the primary information gateway of the body in both directions.

62
00:03:50,540 --> 00:03:54,840
Speaker 3: So as you were saying earlier, it's where the majority

63
00:03:54,860 --> 00:03:58,160
Speaker 3: of our sensory organs are located. So you orient your

64
00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:00,880
Speaker 3: face toward things when you want to gather information about

65
00:04:00,940 --> 00:04:03,060
Speaker 3: that thing with the eyes or with the ears or

66
00:04:03,100 --> 00:04:09,410
Speaker 3: with the mouth. But also it is the primary... informational

67
00:04:09,510 --> 00:04:13,470
Speaker 3: tag for information you send out to other humans about yourself,

68
00:04:13,990 --> 00:04:17,849
Speaker 3: your main identifying feature. So people can know who you are,

69
00:04:17,990 --> 00:04:20,930
Speaker 3: is your face. Uh, you know, we, we primarily use

70
00:04:20,990 --> 00:04:25,430
Speaker 3: faces to identify who we're talking to, to recognize somebody

71
00:04:25,510 --> 00:04:28,590
Speaker 3: at a distance or up close very quickly. Uh, you know,

72
00:04:28,910 --> 00:04:32,470
Speaker 3: recognizing people is very difficult if you have impairments in

73
00:04:32,510 --> 00:04:36,339
Speaker 3: the part of your brain that processes faces holistically. And

74
00:04:36,380 --> 00:04:42,580
Speaker 3: then also emotional information, important contextual and reaction information when

75
00:04:42,660 --> 00:04:46,119
Speaker 3: people are interacting comes through as displayed on the face.

76
00:04:46,430 --> 00:04:46,640
Speaker 1: Yeah.

77
00:04:46,790 --> 00:04:48,770
Speaker 2: And we should also point out, you know, this is

78
00:04:48,830 --> 00:04:53,169
Speaker 2: not necessarily fair in all senses. Like, you know, we

79
00:04:53,250 --> 00:04:57,849
Speaker 2: are not our faces. And yet this does play into

80
00:04:57,890 --> 00:05:02,180
Speaker 2: the way we often read people. You know, it's rather complex.

81
00:05:02,260 --> 00:05:05,790
Speaker 2: But when we encounter someone, there is that weird desire.

82
00:05:05,830 --> 00:05:08,810
Speaker 2: Like we must see the face. Um, we see this

83
00:05:08,850 --> 00:05:12,330
Speaker 2: in our media as well. You know, when the slasher is, is,

84
00:05:12,610 --> 00:05:15,760
Speaker 2: is brought low, there is the need to unmask the

85
00:05:15,779 --> 00:05:18,979
Speaker 2: slasher and reveal the face, uh, in Lucha, in, in, uh,

86
00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:21,260
Speaker 2: Lucha Libre. There is the, uh, the need to see

87
00:05:21,279 --> 00:05:23,060
Speaker 2: the face of the masked wrestler, be it a, uh,

88
00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:27,520
Speaker 2: a Rudo or a Technico. And, um, I was just thinking,

89
00:05:27,540 --> 00:05:29,380
Speaker 2: I was thinking about this just over the last like

90
00:05:29,380 --> 00:05:33,140
Speaker 2: 48 hours, uh, when I've been working on this topic. Um,

91
00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:36,320
Speaker 2: like I run around a track sometimes in the morning,

92
00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:39,260
Speaker 2: which means people are running with me and I don't

93
00:05:39,300 --> 00:05:42,990
Speaker 2: necessarily see their face. And it's weird to, to sort of, um,

94
00:05:43,730 --> 00:05:45,500
Speaker 2: encounter people that I, you know, I don't know what

95
00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:49,230
Speaker 2: they look like and I keep running behind them, passing them.

96
00:05:49,589 --> 00:05:51,450
Speaker 2: And unless I look back, you know, I'm not going

97
00:05:51,470 --> 00:05:52,810
Speaker 2: to see their face and I kind of need to

98
00:05:52,850 --> 00:05:55,330
Speaker 2: see their face. Or last night I was at, um,

99
00:05:55,650 --> 00:05:59,150
Speaker 2: at Netherworld, uh, haunted house here in Atlanta. And at

100
00:05:59,210 --> 00:06:01,190
Speaker 2: one point they were in line to get in and

101
00:06:01,210 --> 00:06:04,010
Speaker 2: there was a, like a mannequin with face, with its

102
00:06:04,070 --> 00:06:07,260
Speaker 2: face obscured by hair. And I just had to part

103
00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:09,260
Speaker 2: that hair to see the face. You know, it's like,

104
00:06:09,279 --> 00:06:12,220
Speaker 2: what's back there? Maybe nothing. And if there's nothing, I

105
00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:15,760
Speaker 2: need to see that. So we're really wired to put

106
00:06:15,779 --> 00:06:17,560
Speaker 2: a lot of emphasis on the human face.

107
00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:19,120
Speaker 3: Wait, what was back there?

108
00:06:19,140 --> 00:06:22,490
Speaker 2: It was just a mannequin face. But I mean, it

109
00:06:22,750 --> 00:06:24,470
Speaker 2: was still creepy. Like I pulled it back and it

110
00:06:24,490 --> 00:06:28,270
Speaker 2: was looking right at me. So yeah, again, we're just,

111
00:06:28,370 --> 00:06:31,419
Speaker 2: we're wired to to see that. We want to interact

112
00:06:31,460 --> 00:06:32,039
Speaker 2: with the face.

113
00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:34,430
Speaker 3: Wouldn't it be funny if you pulled the hair apart

114
00:06:34,450 --> 00:06:35,290
Speaker 3: and it's just a butt?

115
00:06:36,230 --> 00:06:39,330
Speaker 2: That would have been good. In fact, if someone hasn't

116
00:06:39,370 --> 00:06:43,089
Speaker 2: made that already and marketed it to haunted houses and

117
00:06:43,270 --> 00:06:45,510
Speaker 2: haunted attractions, then someone should get on that.

118
00:06:46,050 --> 00:06:47,790
Speaker 3: You know, we're going to be talking about some creatures

119
00:06:47,850 --> 00:06:50,410
Speaker 3: today that are not far off from that reality.

120
00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:55,260
Speaker 2: Yeah. So other things about the face. A face is

121
00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:58,830
Speaker 2: also something we put on. You know, we talk about

122
00:06:58,890 --> 00:07:02,229
Speaker 2: putting on the face and presenting a certain face. In

123
00:07:02,310 --> 00:07:06,770
Speaker 2: June of this year, Cal Reveley Calder wrote, What Happened

124
00:07:06,830 --> 00:07:09,740
Speaker 2: to Your Face? for The New Yorker, which you can

125
00:07:09,820 --> 00:07:13,060
Speaker 2: read online, pointing out that the word face derives from

126
00:07:13,100 --> 00:07:17,400
Speaker 2: the Latin facies, which implies something that has been created.

127
00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:19,880
Speaker 2: And we see this in the French as well. I'm

128
00:07:19,900 --> 00:07:22,680
Speaker 2: going to read just a quote from this article. Quote,

129
00:07:22,720 --> 00:07:26,820
Speaker 2: the cultural historian Hans Belting suggested that faces and masks

130
00:07:26,860 --> 00:07:32,310
Speaker 2: were conceptually inseparable. We shouldn't think of one as real

131
00:07:32,410 --> 00:07:34,850
Speaker 2: and the other as fake. One is the thing we

132
00:07:34,910 --> 00:07:38,430
Speaker 2: have and the other as the thing we temporarily don. Life,

133
00:07:38,510 --> 00:07:44,060
Speaker 2: he wrote, was fully, quote, a perpetuum mobili, an expressive

134
00:07:44,100 --> 00:07:48,140
Speaker 2: drama in which our faces resolve into one legible position,

135
00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:53,080
Speaker 2: one legible role, then resemble themselves into the next. I'm sorry,

136
00:07:53,100 --> 00:07:56,320
Speaker 2: then reassemble themselves into the next. We make them up

137
00:07:56,790 --> 00:07:57,760
Speaker 2: in every sense.

138
00:07:59,330 --> 00:08:02,570
Speaker 3: So that's emphasized. I mean, I guess it's true that

139
00:08:02,990 --> 00:08:08,190
Speaker 3: the face is both revealing in ways that are outside

140
00:08:08,210 --> 00:08:11,610
Speaker 3: of your control. So you might want to hide your identity,

141
00:08:11,750 --> 00:08:14,390
Speaker 3: but it's hard to do because people can see your

142
00:08:14,450 --> 00:08:17,450
Speaker 3: face and recognize you whether you want them to or not.

143
00:08:17,470 --> 00:08:20,460
Speaker 3: That's like, outside of your control. There can also be

144
00:08:20,940 --> 00:08:24,320
Speaker 3: ways that sometimes you might give things away with micro

145
00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:26,870
Speaker 3: expressions on your face, like feelings or thoughts that you're

146
00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:30,810
Speaker 3: trying to hide. That's kind of involuntarily revealed through the face.

147
00:08:31,110 --> 00:08:32,850
Speaker 3: But the other side of that is we do have

148
00:08:32,890 --> 00:08:36,230
Speaker 3: some conscious control over our faces, both in terms of

149
00:08:36,290 --> 00:08:39,070
Speaker 3: things we do to our faces, like applying makeup or,

150
00:08:39,330 --> 00:08:41,690
Speaker 3: you know, in the modern day getting, you know, body

151
00:08:41,730 --> 00:08:45,600
Speaker 3: modification or plastic surgery or anything, and also conscious control

152
00:08:45,630 --> 00:08:49,150
Speaker 3: over the faces we make, the expressions that we choose

153
00:08:49,210 --> 00:08:53,150
Speaker 3: to intentionally display with our faces. So it's this strange

154
00:08:53,290 --> 00:08:57,510
Speaker 3: mix throughout our lives of our faces giving information away,

155
00:08:57,570 --> 00:08:59,949
Speaker 3: whether we want them to or not, and then using

156
00:09:00,030 --> 00:09:04,650
Speaker 3: our faces to create perceptions intentionally in the world.

157
00:09:04,670 --> 00:09:10,050
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. Our face is constantly betraying us and also

158
00:09:10,110 --> 00:09:15,620
Speaker 2: to a certain extent, perhaps deceiving others. Like the deception

159
00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:18,980
Speaker 2: of the face can be overt and even harmful, but

160
00:09:19,020 --> 00:09:21,640
Speaker 2: it can also just be part of our daily interactions,

161
00:09:21,679 --> 00:09:24,640
Speaker 2: you know, like smile and nod when a stranger is

162
00:09:24,660 --> 00:09:26,579
Speaker 2: telling you about something. Even if you're not that interested,

163
00:09:26,620 --> 00:09:28,500
Speaker 2: you know, you put on a good face to receive

164
00:09:28,559 --> 00:09:32,110
Speaker 2: this well-intended, you know, bit of trivia or gossip that

165
00:09:32,140 --> 00:09:36,390
Speaker 2: they're sharing with you. But yeah, I want to point

166
00:09:36,410 --> 00:09:39,410
Speaker 2: out one other thing from this article. The author, Reveille Calder,

167
00:09:40,150 --> 00:09:43,650
Speaker 2: also quotes T.S. Eliot's The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock,

168
00:09:43,950 --> 00:09:45,729
Speaker 2: a poem I think most of you are familiar with.

169
00:09:46,130 --> 00:09:47,910
Speaker 2: But there's, of course, that line in the poem, there

170
00:09:47,929 --> 00:09:50,150
Speaker 2: will be time, there will be time to prepare a

171
00:09:50,230 --> 00:09:53,130
Speaker 2: face to meet the faces that you meet. I was

172
00:09:53,150 --> 00:09:54,830
Speaker 2: looking for other sources on this, and I ran across

173
00:09:54,890 --> 00:09:58,600
Speaker 2: a 2026 book titled Faces, A Cultural History by the

174
00:09:58,630 --> 00:10:03,700
Speaker 2: French author David Le Breton. And this is a rather

175
00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:06,179
Speaker 2: interesting book. I didn't have time to really just read

176
00:10:06,220 --> 00:10:08,959
Speaker 2: it cover to cover, but I was flipping around and

177
00:10:09,059 --> 00:10:13,040
Speaker 2: finding things that applied to our discussion here today. And

178
00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:16,630
Speaker 2: during parts of it, the author discusses the face as

179
00:10:16,690 --> 00:10:20,170
Speaker 2: the anchor of human morality. and points out that to

180
00:10:20,230 --> 00:10:22,829
Speaker 2: obscure the face, say with a mask, is to cut

181
00:10:22,890 --> 00:10:26,450
Speaker 2: ourselves off from human morality. So I wanna read one

182
00:10:26,510 --> 00:10:31,079
Speaker 2: quote from him as well here. The face embodies a morality,

183
00:10:31,340 --> 00:10:34,940
Speaker 2: holds us accountable for our actions. Not having to look

184
00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:38,620
Speaker 2: one another in the face creates many opportunities for transgression.

185
00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:42,200
Speaker 2: The mask is not simply a tool that ensures anonymity.

186
00:10:42,700 --> 00:10:46,950
Speaker 2: It reveals hidden resources, surprises, it sometimes takes over, takes

187
00:10:47,010 --> 00:10:50,150
Speaker 2: possession of those who thought they were just playing a game.

188
00:10:50,710 --> 00:10:55,010
Speaker 2: Changing one's face amounts to changing one's life. Freeing or

189
00:10:55,050 --> 00:10:58,859
Speaker 2: temporarily distancing oneself, not without risk, from the sense of

190
00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:03,440
Speaker 2: identity that once governed one's individual relationship to the world.

191
00:11:04,120 --> 00:11:06,320
Speaker 3: I think that's really insightful. So it's not just the

192
00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:10,480
Speaker 3: idea that putting on a mask is a, uh, morally

193
00:11:10,559 --> 00:11:14,000
Speaker 3: significant activity because it can say hide your identity, you know,

194
00:11:14,020 --> 00:11:16,209
Speaker 3: the way a bandit might put on a mask so

195
00:11:16,290 --> 00:11:20,770
Speaker 3: they're not recognized before doing a crime. It actually like

196
00:11:20,850 --> 00:11:24,070
Speaker 3: changes the sort of the whole way that you think

197
00:11:24,130 --> 00:11:27,750
Speaker 3: about your again, the information input output gate with the

198
00:11:27,820 --> 00:11:31,520
Speaker 3: world covering that up can in some ways just change

199
00:11:31,620 --> 00:11:35,800
Speaker 3: the way you feel about everything you're doing and can

200
00:11:36,460 --> 00:11:38,760
Speaker 3: sort of make you a different kind of being.

201
00:11:38,780 --> 00:11:41,920
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. And I'd love, you know, if we, you know,

202
00:11:41,950 --> 00:11:43,910
Speaker 2: expand this to think of the other ways of putting

203
00:11:43,990 --> 00:11:46,300
Speaker 2: on the mask or putting on a face. Uh, I mean, I'm,

204
00:11:46,370 --> 00:11:48,210
Speaker 2: I'm sure there are a number of different comparisons to

205
00:11:48,230 --> 00:11:50,270
Speaker 2: be drawn here to, uh, to make up, you know,

206
00:11:50,740 --> 00:11:55,140
Speaker 2: making oneself up, uh, for certain types of social events. Uh,

207
00:11:55,160 --> 00:11:58,400
Speaker 2: would love to hear from makeup users about this particular, um,

208
00:11:58,500 --> 00:12:02,730
Speaker 2: side of things. And, um, Yeah, yeah. Again, when you

209
00:12:02,750 --> 00:12:05,520
Speaker 2: think about this idea that the face and the mask

210
00:12:05,580 --> 00:12:08,960
Speaker 2: are interchangeable and we can't, any good way we can

211
00:12:08,980 --> 00:12:11,620
Speaker 2: think about an actual physical mask, we can also think

212
00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:15,109
Speaker 2: that way about the face and maybe vice versa. I

213
00:12:15,150 --> 00:12:18,590
Speaker 2: think that'll be very insightful as we continue our discussion here.

214
00:12:20,590 --> 00:12:23,270
Speaker 2: The author here also says, quote, it is impossible to

215
00:12:23,330 --> 00:12:26,520
Speaker 2: imagine a faceless world without viewing it as a universe

216
00:12:26,559 --> 00:12:30,530
Speaker 2: of chaos. And we're going to be diving into that

217
00:12:30,610 --> 00:12:34,929
Speaker 2: universe of chaos a little bit as we discuss fantastic creatures, ghosts,

218
00:12:35,070 --> 00:12:38,410
Speaker 2: or even masked individuals who are at least presenting the

219
00:12:38,530 --> 00:12:42,630
Speaker 2: idea of a faceless entity. And I think we might

220
00:12:42,690 --> 00:12:47,210
Speaker 2: continually ask ourselves, like, how do we process that? Like,

221
00:12:47,330 --> 00:12:51,069
Speaker 2: what is the sense of it? How does it affect

222
00:12:51,110 --> 00:12:54,250
Speaker 2: the way that we view identity in this individual universe?

223
00:12:54,570 --> 00:12:57,830
Speaker 2: How does it affect the way we think about how

224
00:12:57,870 --> 00:13:01,280
Speaker 2: they are viewing us? You know, is it perceiving us

225
00:13:01,340 --> 00:13:03,660
Speaker 2: at all? What does it mean to not be perceived

226
00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:06,500
Speaker 2: in some way? And then how does this also apply

227
00:13:06,520 --> 00:13:10,800
Speaker 2: to communication? Like, it has no mouth, the faceless entity.

228
00:13:11,179 --> 00:13:13,830
Speaker 2: It has no eyes. It has no nose. Maybe, maybe

229
00:13:13,890 --> 00:13:18,530
Speaker 2: not concerning ears. But, you know, it's kind of cut

230
00:13:18,770 --> 00:13:23,429
Speaker 2: off from human senses and maybe even human morality in

231
00:13:23,470 --> 00:13:24,350
Speaker 2: a very telling way.

232
00:13:35,980 --> 00:13:38,750
Speaker 3: So I know the main examples that we wanted to

233
00:13:38,809 --> 00:13:41,270
Speaker 3: talk about in today's episode are a couple of creatures

234
00:13:41,370 --> 00:13:44,449
Speaker 3: from Japanese literature and folklore. Do you want to turn

235
00:13:44,530 --> 00:13:45,110
Speaker 3: to those now?

236
00:13:45,610 --> 00:13:50,010
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. Two entities that I think are both loosely

237
00:13:50,050 --> 00:13:55,350
Speaker 2: classified as yokai. It's the sort of spirit entities that

238
00:13:55,410 --> 00:13:58,750
Speaker 2: are not quite like a haunting ghost and also not

239
00:13:58,870 --> 00:14:02,530
Speaker 2: quite a physical monster, but somewhere in between. We've talked

240
00:14:02,570 --> 00:14:05,410
Speaker 2: about yokai many times on the show before. It's an

241
00:14:05,450 --> 00:14:10,430
Speaker 2: amazing world of creatures that can be, you know, endlessly amusing,

242
00:14:10,490 --> 00:14:14,429
Speaker 2: but also very frightening. And also there's often a lot

243
00:14:14,470 --> 00:14:18,100
Speaker 2: of historical and cultural insight to gain from particular yokai.

244
00:14:18,500 --> 00:14:18,720
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.

245
00:14:19,710 --> 00:14:23,650
Speaker 2: So we have two related yokai concepts to discuss here.

246
00:14:24,230 --> 00:14:29,270
Speaker 2: So there is the newpeppo. This is apparently a corruption

247
00:14:29,530 --> 00:14:32,740
Speaker 2: of the slang for someone wearing too much makeup. The idea, like,

248
00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:35,160
Speaker 2: someone's so made up that it doesn't look like they

249
00:14:35,180 --> 00:14:40,140
Speaker 2: have a face anymore. And this emerges during the Edo period.

250
00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:44,760
Speaker 2: A pale, bloated, wandering pile of hairless flesh with lumpy

251
00:14:44,870 --> 00:14:49,020
Speaker 2: legs and the folds of its fat. seem to form

252
00:14:49,060 --> 00:14:53,620
Speaker 2: a saggy face, but it has no head otherwise. There

253
00:14:53,700 --> 00:14:56,170
Speaker 2: are lots of illustrations of this guy with the, of course,

254
00:14:56,230 --> 00:14:59,830
Speaker 2: historic illustrations looking the best. I don't know, put in

255
00:14:59,870 --> 00:15:03,200
Speaker 2: like pre-1960 or whatever you need to do to avoid

256
00:15:03,220 --> 00:15:06,120
Speaker 2: the AI garbage these days and see some of these

257
00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:07,380
Speaker 2: fabulous illustrations.

258
00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:10,920
Speaker 3: So both of the yokai we're going to talk about here,

259
00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:13,990
Speaker 3: I was reading about in a book called The Book

260
00:15:14,010 --> 00:15:17,810
Speaker 3: of Yokai by the folklorist Michael Dylan Foster, who's a

261
00:15:17,890 --> 00:15:20,670
Speaker 3: professor at UC Davis, writes a lot about Japanese culture.

262
00:15:20,690 --> 00:15:25,530
Speaker 3: And one thing I wanted to note is that these

263
00:15:25,610 --> 00:15:29,090
Speaker 3: yokai appear grouped in the section of the book called

264
00:15:29,230 --> 00:15:31,890
Speaker 3: Village and City Yokai. So you get some that are

265
00:15:31,930 --> 00:15:37,530
Speaker 3: very wilderness-focused or might be associated with water or with

266
00:15:37,550 --> 00:15:40,160
Speaker 3: the mountains and things like that. These appear in the

267
00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:42,640
Speaker 3: village and city section. I think that's kind of interesting.

268
00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:44,980
Speaker 3: These are a little bit more cultured as far as

269
00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:49,180
Speaker 3: yokai go. But this first creature, the nupepo, is sort

270
00:15:49,220 --> 00:15:51,420
Speaker 3: of a flesh wad. I think the way you described

271
00:15:51,460 --> 00:15:57,060
Speaker 3: it is good, but Foster's description is an, quote, amorphous

272
00:15:57,180 --> 00:16:03,740
Speaker 3: fleshy blob with fatty folds vaguely taking the shape of eyes, nose,

273
00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:08,150
Speaker 3: and mouth. So it kind of has the suggestion of

274
00:16:08,210 --> 00:16:11,310
Speaker 3: a face without really having a face.

275
00:16:12,130 --> 00:16:12,490
Speaker 2: Yeah.

276
00:16:12,790 --> 00:16:13,250
Speaker 3: Yeah.

277
00:16:13,270 --> 00:16:15,830
Speaker 2: I think that's an important point that we see this

278
00:16:15,850 --> 00:16:18,930
Speaker 2: time and time again with different certainly pop cultural and

279
00:16:18,970 --> 00:16:22,010
Speaker 2: horror movie ideas of the faceless. Like, is it 100

280
00:16:22,010 --> 00:16:26,130
Speaker 2: percent like a smooth surface or is there a hint

281
00:16:26,170 --> 00:16:28,729
Speaker 2: of eyes or like, does it look like flesh stretched

282
00:16:28,870 --> 00:16:32,480
Speaker 2: over a skeleton that has the eye holes in it,

283
00:16:32,530 --> 00:16:33,130
Speaker 2: that sort of thing?

284
00:16:33,850 --> 00:16:36,910
Speaker 3: So yeah, to picture this thing again, imagine just one

285
00:16:37,150 --> 00:16:39,750
Speaker 3: big lump. You're not going to have like a separate

286
00:16:39,830 --> 00:16:42,870
Speaker 3: head and body. It's one sort of egg shaped lump,

287
00:16:43,510 --> 00:16:48,630
Speaker 3: a big lump of flesh with loose saggy skin suggesting

288
00:16:48,690 --> 00:16:50,790
Speaker 3: the contours of a face. So the folds of the

289
00:16:50,830 --> 00:16:52,790
Speaker 3: skin are going to be like eyes and a mouth.

290
00:16:53,430 --> 00:16:56,310
Speaker 3: And then it's got these short stubby arms and legs,

291
00:16:56,370 --> 00:17:00,070
Speaker 3: which are also covered in heaps of saggy flesh waddling

292
00:17:00,130 --> 00:17:04,490
Speaker 3: or staggering around. Foster says that this creature is illustrate,

293
00:17:04,530 --> 00:17:07,950
Speaker 3: despite like the disgusting description there, it is illustrated often

294
00:17:07,970 --> 00:17:09,570
Speaker 3: to be kind of funny and cute.

295
00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:11,800
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, he's a, he's a weird little guy,

296
00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:16,520
Speaker 2: you know? Yeah. And it's my understanding. One of my

297
00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:19,440
Speaker 2: sources I always turn to is a yokai attack by

298
00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:22,340
Speaker 2: Hiroko Yoda and Matt Alt. Like they point out that

299
00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:24,670
Speaker 2: this is not a yokai that is, some yokai are,

300
00:17:25,230 --> 00:17:28,950
Speaker 2: are positioned as dangerous, but a lot, maybe even most

301
00:17:28,990 --> 00:17:31,250
Speaker 2: of them are not. And this is one that's, Not

302
00:17:31,290 --> 00:17:33,630
Speaker 2: really dangerous. The only dangerous thing it's going to do

303
00:17:33,810 --> 00:17:38,110
Speaker 2: is scare you and maybe frighten you and then also

304
00:17:38,130 --> 00:17:40,820
Speaker 2: maybe creep you out. But that's it. Yeah.

305
00:17:41,100 --> 00:17:44,940
Speaker 3: So Foster mentions, like you said, Rob, that illustrations of

306
00:17:44,980 --> 00:17:47,859
Speaker 3: this creature can be found in texts from the Edo period.

307
00:17:48,300 --> 00:17:52,000
Speaker 3: But according to Foster, this yokai really experienced a renaissance

308
00:17:52,060 --> 00:17:55,820
Speaker 3: in the later 20th century, probably due to the work

309
00:17:55,980 --> 00:18:00,400
Speaker 3: of the folklore scholar and manga artist Mizuki Shigeru. who

310
00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:04,340
Speaker 3: was responsible for consolidating a lot of disparate yokai folklore

311
00:18:04,460 --> 00:18:10,830
Speaker 3: and like taking kind of different but similar stories that

312
00:18:10,850 --> 00:18:14,510
Speaker 3: were going around in the oral traditions of Japan or in,

313
00:18:14,650 --> 00:18:16,830
Speaker 3: you know, little isolated texts here and there, kind of

314
00:18:16,890 --> 00:18:21,830
Speaker 3: consolidating them into these big creature types and making these

315
00:18:21,869 --> 00:18:26,419
Speaker 3: creatures much more popular and well-known. And according to Mizuki,

316
00:18:26,700 --> 00:18:30,210
Speaker 3: this yokai is a, quote, spirit of folklore. Which is

317
00:18:30,250 --> 00:18:34,210
Speaker 3: funny because that almost seems like an oxymoron spirit of flesh.

318
00:18:34,290 --> 00:18:38,350
Speaker 3: It's like that. But anyway, and what Mizuki says is

319
00:18:38,390 --> 00:18:42,820
Speaker 3: it haunts deserted temples. So you imagine a monk traveling

320
00:18:42,859 --> 00:18:45,459
Speaker 3: the roads at night needs to find a place to

321
00:18:45,500 --> 00:18:48,040
Speaker 3: lay down. A lot of stories start like this. Monk

322
00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:51,220
Speaker 3: finds a deserted temple, goes into the temple. It is

323
00:18:51,300 --> 00:18:54,880
Speaker 3: haunted by a new pepo. So the monk takes shelter

324
00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:57,710
Speaker 3: and sleeps there. If he does, he will wake up

325
00:18:57,770 --> 00:19:01,030
Speaker 3: in the night and find this flesh wad stumbling around

326
00:19:01,090 --> 00:19:03,490
Speaker 3: in the dark. And we don't know what it wants,

327
00:19:03,690 --> 00:19:07,790
Speaker 3: but it may be, in Foster's words, quote, the flesh

328
00:19:07,950 --> 00:19:11,739
Speaker 3: of a dead body walking by itself. I thought that

329
00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:16,080
Speaker 3: was an interesting framing because it's not a dead body walking,

330
00:19:16,180 --> 00:19:18,920
Speaker 3: but the flesh of a dead body.

331
00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:23,200
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. Like it's just the grave flesh that has

332
00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:29,649
Speaker 2: somehow accumulated into this non-human entity, this flesh spirit that

333
00:19:29,670 --> 00:19:35,290
Speaker 2: just kind of wanders around. It's like something you might

334
00:19:35,330 --> 00:19:37,570
Speaker 2: find wandering around in the back rooms, for those of

335
00:19:37,590 --> 00:19:41,810
Speaker 2: you who are familiar with that film. It feels like

336
00:19:41,850 --> 00:19:45,129
Speaker 2: some sort of a weird byproduct of the spirit and

337
00:19:45,150 --> 00:19:45,629
Speaker 2: the flesh.

338
00:19:46,690 --> 00:19:51,040
Speaker 3: So Foster also notes some linguistic overlap with the yokai

339
00:19:51,060 --> 00:19:54,629
Speaker 3: that we're about to talk about, the nopera bow. He

340
00:19:54,690 --> 00:19:59,230
Speaker 3: says that the word nupere and nopere both mean flat faced.

341
00:19:59,790 --> 00:20:01,679
Speaker 3: And I think the way you should understand that is.

342
00:20:02,180 --> 00:20:05,139
Speaker 3: Not flat as in like a perfectly flat plane in

343
00:20:05,180 --> 00:20:08,460
Speaker 3: a geometric sense, but flat as in featureless or smooth.

344
00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:10,609
Speaker 3: So that's what it means to not have a face

345
00:20:11,170 --> 00:20:13,590
Speaker 3: in this sense. Like your face is flat because it

346
00:20:13,630 --> 00:20:16,130
Speaker 3: doesn't have eyes and a nose and a mouth. Though

347
00:20:16,190 --> 00:20:18,530
Speaker 3: in this case, it does have some wrinkly flesh.

348
00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:25,240
Speaker 2: In Yokai Attack, Yoda and Alt share another story about

349
00:20:25,260 --> 00:20:29,119
Speaker 2: the new Pepo. They say there's an 18th century tale

350
00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:33,340
Speaker 2: that discusses one haunting... the castle or was wandering around

351
00:20:33,380 --> 00:20:38,389
Speaker 2: the castle of the Shogun, uh, Tokugawa Yaosu, the founder

352
00:20:38,410 --> 00:20:42,609
Speaker 2: of the Tokugawa Shogunate who lived 1543 through 1616. And

353
00:20:42,650 --> 00:20:45,810
Speaker 2: according to this tale, the Shogun himself demanded the creature

354
00:20:45,850 --> 00:20:48,450
Speaker 2: be removed from the premises. And, uh, so his men

355
00:20:48,490 --> 00:20:50,750
Speaker 2: did that and they took it away. They released it

356
00:20:50,830 --> 00:20:53,530
Speaker 2: deep into the wilderness where it couldn't trouble human settlements.

357
00:20:53,970 --> 00:20:58,399
Speaker 2: And then afterwards, uh, the Shogun learns that New Pepo's

358
00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:01,129
Speaker 2: flesh was said to restore youth and health to anyone

359
00:21:01,170 --> 00:21:05,310
Speaker 2: who consumed it. So I think in this, it's like

360
00:21:05,369 --> 00:21:09,690
Speaker 2: it's also taking this yokai and connecting it to various

361
00:21:09,850 --> 00:21:14,710
Speaker 2: other traditions in Japanese and maybe even more ancient traditions

362
00:21:14,790 --> 00:21:19,270
Speaker 2: in Chinese belief about various spirit fleshes like this that

363
00:21:19,490 --> 00:21:22,310
Speaker 2: are maybe ghastly to behold, but have some sort of

364
00:21:22,430 --> 00:21:23,450
Speaker 2: special properties.

365
00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:27,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, so that's the new pepo. But remember, again, if

366
00:21:27,820 --> 00:21:30,580
Speaker 3: you can't look it up, there you should be picturing

367
00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:34,060
Speaker 3: something that does not have a separate head and body.

368
00:21:34,180 --> 00:21:36,859
Speaker 3: It's just a big wad of flesh, sort of a

369
00:21:37,040 --> 00:21:41,020
Speaker 3: giant face instead of a body, except it's not really

370
00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:44,419
Speaker 3: a face. It's just kind of a blank flesh ball

371
00:21:44,460 --> 00:21:47,460
Speaker 3: that has some feature oids that are creases in the

372
00:21:47,530 --> 00:21:48,439
Speaker 3: folds of the flesh.

373
00:21:48,660 --> 00:21:50,290
Speaker 2: Yeah, it doesn't have a face, but it doesn't have

374
00:21:50,330 --> 00:21:51,370
Speaker 2: a lot of things. Yeah.

375
00:21:52,350 --> 00:21:54,830
Speaker 3: But if you want to imagine a creature that is

376
00:21:55,070 --> 00:21:58,990
Speaker 3: otherwise shaped more like a human, but simply without a face,

377
00:21:59,210 --> 00:22:02,930
Speaker 3: a featureless front of the head, it's just flat skin.

378
00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:05,600
Speaker 3: Then we need to move on to the next yokai,

379
00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:06,899
Speaker 3: which is the no para bow.

380
00:22:07,500 --> 00:22:09,000
Speaker 2: Now, Joe, do you want to just go ahead and

381
00:22:09,220 --> 00:22:13,680
Speaker 2: read one of the more popular tellings of this story? Oh, well,

382
00:22:13,700 --> 00:22:17,160
Speaker 2: we could do that. And then we can discuss what

383
00:22:17,220 --> 00:22:20,310
Speaker 2: it is afterwards, because there's a. There's certain twists and

384
00:22:20,350 --> 00:22:23,350
Speaker 2: turns in the story that I think are important, and

385
00:22:23,390 --> 00:22:26,520
Speaker 2: maybe the best way to absorb those are just through

386
00:22:26,540 --> 00:22:27,260
Speaker 2: the story itself.

387
00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:29,340
Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, maybe we should do it that way. So

388
00:22:30,020 --> 00:22:36,580
Speaker 3: one historically important Noperibo tale appeared in the Japanese ghost

389
00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:41,720
Speaker 3: story collection Kaidan by the author Lafcadio Hearn. Lafcadio Hearn

390
00:22:41,820 --> 00:22:45,960
Speaker 3: was a Greek-born author of Irish and Greek parentage. He

391
00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:50,220
Speaker 3: was a journalist and translator who lived 1850 to 1904,

392
00:22:50,220 --> 00:22:53,770
Speaker 3: and he spent many years of his life living in Japan,

393
00:22:54,410 --> 00:22:57,070
Speaker 3: doing different jobs, often working as a teacher, for example,

394
00:22:57,109 --> 00:23:01,670
Speaker 3: teaching English literature to Japanese university students and doing other teaching.

395
00:23:01,930 --> 00:23:06,620
Speaker 3: And he published a lot of works meant for international

396
00:23:06,710 --> 00:23:10,479
Speaker 3: audiences in English to introduce them to the culture of Japan.

397
00:23:11,700 --> 00:23:17,280
Speaker 3: So Kaidan was a collection of Japanese ghost stories rendered

398
00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:21,860
Speaker 3: and retold by Hearn. So some of them were translations

399
00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:26,320
Speaker 3: of older Japanese literature. Some were his renderings of stories

400
00:23:26,340 --> 00:23:30,220
Speaker 3: he had been told by Japanese people. I think one

401
00:23:30,300 --> 00:23:32,370
Speaker 3: story in there, I think I've read, it was sort

402
00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:35,670
Speaker 3: of an original of his. And then also this book

403
00:23:35,710 --> 00:23:39,609
Speaker 3: just happened to have some essays about insect biology in it.

404
00:23:39,630 --> 00:23:44,780
Speaker 3: Kind of a potpourri here. But mostly it's traditional Japanese

405
00:23:44,820 --> 00:23:48,840
Speaker 3: ghost stories as rendered and retold by Hearn. And a

406
00:23:48,900 --> 00:23:53,570
Speaker 3: note on pronunciation. I've heard this book in the movie

407
00:23:53,609 --> 00:23:56,830
Speaker 3: based on it's sometimes called Kwaidan or Kwaidan. It is

408
00:23:56,869 --> 00:23:59,710
Speaker 3: spelled often with a W in it. But my understanding

409
00:23:59,770 --> 00:24:02,770
Speaker 3: is the modern Japanese pronunciation would be Kaidan. So I

410
00:24:02,810 --> 00:24:03,810
Speaker 3: hope I'm saying that right.

411
00:24:04,050 --> 00:24:07,090
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think this is probably one of the most mispronounced,

412
00:24:08,100 --> 00:24:12,180
Speaker 2: certainly Japanese films ever. Because it's an important Japanese horror film,

413
00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:16,720
Speaker 2: the 1964 horror anthology. But yeah, I've heard it pronounced

414
00:24:16,740 --> 00:24:19,360
Speaker 2: so many different ways. And I certainly have personally contributed

415
00:24:20,060 --> 00:24:24,980
Speaker 2: to the different mispronunciations for this film. But it's really good.

416
00:24:25,020 --> 00:24:28,090
Speaker 2: If anyone out there hasn't seen it, I highly recommend it.

417
00:24:28,330 --> 00:24:32,790
Speaker 2: I believe it's available in Criterion Edition. And it's just

418
00:24:32,869 --> 00:24:39,050
Speaker 2: a spectacular, beautiful, psychedelic almost film that deserves to be seen.

419
00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:41,560
Speaker 3: I mean, one of these days we should probably do

420
00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:44,119
Speaker 3: it for an October episode of Weird House Cinema. We

421
00:24:44,140 --> 00:24:46,080
Speaker 3: just didn't happen to plan it that way this year.

422
00:24:47,380 --> 00:24:50,020
Speaker 3: But anyway, so I think I should note that while

423
00:24:50,060 --> 00:24:53,320
Speaker 3: the story I'm about to read is often identified as

424
00:24:53,420 --> 00:24:57,270
Speaker 3: a classic story of the Noparabo, the story does not

425
00:24:57,510 --> 00:25:00,470
Speaker 3: use that term. So this word does not appear in

426
00:25:00,490 --> 00:25:03,110
Speaker 3: the story at all. Instead, the story is called the

427
00:25:03,369 --> 00:25:07,320
Speaker 3: Mugina story. And the Mugina is a type of magical

428
00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:12,020
Speaker 3: shape-shifting animal, usually a badger, but sometimes a Japanese raccoon

429
00:25:12,060 --> 00:25:14,639
Speaker 3: dog or a fox. Rob, I don't know if you

430
00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:17,040
Speaker 3: know any other stories of Mugina.

431
00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:24,890
Speaker 2: The Tanookis and the fox spirits are the main suspects here.

432
00:25:24,930 --> 00:25:27,790
Speaker 2: And we'll get to a pretty fun cinematic example of

433
00:25:27,850 --> 00:25:28,530
Speaker 2: this here in a bit.

434
00:25:29,340 --> 00:25:32,240
Speaker 3: Okay, but here I'm just going to read the telling

435
00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:35,400
Speaker 3: of Mujina from Lafcadio Hearn in Kaidan.

436
00:25:36,420 --> 00:25:37,280
Speaker 2: So, it goes.

437
00:25:37,780 --> 00:25:40,740
Speaker 3: On the Akasaka Road in Tokyo, there is a slope

438
00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:44,899
Speaker 3: called Kinokunizaka, which means the slope of the province of Ki.

439
00:25:45,380 --> 00:25:47,260
Speaker 3: I do not know why it is called the slope

440
00:25:47,340 --> 00:25:50,480
Speaker 3: of the province of Ki. On one side of this slope,

441
00:25:50,580 --> 00:25:53,760
Speaker 3: you see an ancient moat, deep and very wide, with

442
00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:57,060
Speaker 3: high green banks rising up to some place of gardens.

443
00:25:57,710 --> 00:25:59,949
Speaker 3: And on the other side of the road extend the

444
00:26:00,030 --> 00:26:03,909
Speaker 3: long and lofty walls of an imperial palace. Before the

445
00:26:04,020 --> 00:26:08,119
Speaker 3: era of street lamps in Jinriki-shas, this neighborhood was very

446
00:26:08,180 --> 00:26:12,240
Speaker 3: lonesome after dark, and belated pedestrians would go miles out

447
00:26:12,260 --> 00:26:17,379
Speaker 3: of their way rather than mount the Kinokunizaka alone after sunset. Okay,

448
00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:20,280
Speaker 3: so good setup, kind of a spooky road here. But again,

449
00:26:20,300 --> 00:26:23,510
Speaker 3: not like one deep in the country, not one far away.

450
00:26:23,530 --> 00:26:27,440
Speaker 3: You know, we're basically, we're within civilization here. but this

451
00:26:27,500 --> 00:26:31,030
Speaker 3: kind of scary road. So the story goes on. The

452
00:26:31,070 --> 00:26:33,930
Speaker 3: question is, like, why were people scared to walk alone

453
00:26:33,970 --> 00:26:37,710
Speaker 3: there after sunset? The story says, quote, all because of

454
00:26:37,770 --> 00:26:41,169
Speaker 3: a mugina that used to walk there. The last man

455
00:26:41,230 --> 00:26:44,300
Speaker 3: who saw the mugina was an old merchant of the

456
00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:48,260
Speaker 3: Kyobashi quarter who died about 30 years ago. This is

457
00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:51,740
Speaker 3: the story as he told it. One night at a

458
00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:55,720
Speaker 3: late hour, he was hurrying up the Kinokunizaka, when he

459
00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:59,379
Speaker 3: perceived a woman crouching by the moat, all alone, and

460
00:26:59,500 --> 00:27:04,240
Speaker 3: weeping bitterly. Fearing that she intended to drown herself, he

461
00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:07,980
Speaker 3: stopped to offer her any assistance or consolation in his power.

462
00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:12,199
Speaker 3: She appeared to be a slight and graceful person, handsomely dressed,

463
00:27:12,570 --> 00:27:14,770
Speaker 3: and her hair was arranged like that of a young

464
00:27:14,830 --> 00:27:18,540
Speaker 3: girl of good family. And then the story is about

465
00:27:18,580 --> 00:27:22,540
Speaker 3: to use a term, Ojochu. I understand that this is

466
00:27:22,580 --> 00:27:24,879
Speaker 3: sort of a polite way to address a young woman

467
00:27:24,940 --> 00:27:28,100
Speaker 3: that you don't know. It means something like honorable young lady.

468
00:27:29,140 --> 00:27:33,399
Speaker 3: So the story goes on. Ojochu, he exclaimed, approaching her. Ojochu,

469
00:27:33,590 --> 00:27:36,209
Speaker 3: do not cry like that. Tell me what the trouble is.

470
00:27:36,390 --> 00:27:38,409
Speaker 3: And if there be any way to help you, I

471
00:27:38,430 --> 00:27:41,090
Speaker 3: shall be glad to help you. He really meant what

472
00:27:41,109 --> 00:27:43,610
Speaker 3: he said, for he was a kind man, for he's

473
00:27:43,630 --> 00:27:47,179
Speaker 3: a very kind man. But she continued to weep. hiding

474
00:27:47,220 --> 00:27:50,840
Speaker 3: her face from him with one of her long sleeves. Ojochu,

475
00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:53,900
Speaker 3: he said again, as gently as he could. Please, please

476
00:27:53,980 --> 00:27:56,440
Speaker 3: listen to me. This is no place for a young

477
00:27:56,510 --> 00:27:59,610
Speaker 3: lady at night. Do not cry, I implore you. Only

478
00:27:59,690 --> 00:28:01,810
Speaker 3: tell me how I may be of some help to you.

479
00:28:02,590 --> 00:28:05,250
Speaker 3: Slowly she rose up, but turned her back to him,

480
00:28:05,570 --> 00:28:09,469
Speaker 3: and continued to moan and sob behind her sleeve. He

481
00:28:09,550 --> 00:28:15,050
Speaker 3: laid his hand lightly upon her shoulder and pleaded, Ojochu, Ojochu, Ojochu.

482
00:28:15,810 --> 00:28:19,550
Speaker 3: Listen to me, just for one little moment. Ojochu, ojochu.

483
00:28:20,310 --> 00:28:24,969
Speaker 3: Then that ojochu turned round and dropped her sleeve and

484
00:28:25,070 --> 00:28:28,109
Speaker 3: stroked her face with her hand, and the man saw

485
00:28:28,190 --> 00:28:31,969
Speaker 3: that she had no eyes or nose or mouth, and

486
00:28:32,010 --> 00:28:35,650
Speaker 3: he screamed and ran away. Oh, I love that detail.

487
00:28:35,710 --> 00:28:38,290
Speaker 3: She turns and she strokes her face with her hand

488
00:28:38,770 --> 00:28:40,410
Speaker 3: as he sees there is no face.

489
00:28:41,020 --> 00:28:44,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is a detail that apparently is very important

490
00:28:44,580 --> 00:28:47,280
Speaker 2: to these stories. And sometimes I think it's kind of

491
00:28:47,340 --> 00:28:51,180
Speaker 2: like the hand erasing the face, or it's implied as such.

492
00:28:51,770 --> 00:28:55,830
Speaker 2: Other times this flourish isn't included. Sometimes it's just like, oh,

493
00:28:55,890 --> 00:28:58,550
Speaker 2: the face is blank. But I think it goes both ways.

494
00:28:58,850 --> 00:29:00,990
Speaker 3: Yeah, so it's like she could be, she wipes the

495
00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:03,440
Speaker 3: face away or strokes the featureless face.

496
00:29:03,500 --> 00:29:05,420
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.

497
00:29:05,620 --> 00:29:09,650
Speaker 3: So anyway, the story goes on. Up Kinokunizaka he ran

498
00:29:09,750 --> 00:29:12,980
Speaker 3: and ran, and all was black and empty before him.

499
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:16,200
Speaker 3: On and on he ran, never daring to look back,

500
00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:19,200
Speaker 3: and at last he saw a lantern so far away

501
00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:21,940
Speaker 3: that it had looked like the gleam of a firefly,

502
00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:24,520
Speaker 3: and he made for it. It proved to be only

503
00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:27,570
Speaker 3: the lantern of an itinerant soba seller, so this is

504
00:29:27,610 --> 00:29:30,790
Speaker 3: like a noodle shop, a soba seller who had set

505
00:29:30,830 --> 00:29:34,000
Speaker 3: down his stand by the roadside and but any light

506
00:29:34,140 --> 00:29:37,969
Speaker 3: and any human companionship was good after that experience, and

507
00:29:37,990 --> 00:29:39,980
Speaker 3: he flung himself down at the feet of the old man.

508
00:29:40,220 --> 00:29:41,720
Speaker 3: Soba seller, crying out,' Ah!

509
00:29:41,740 --> 00:29:42,100
Speaker 2: Ah!

510
00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:47,240
Speaker 3: Ah!'' Corey! Corey!' roughly exclaimed the Soba man.' Here, what

511
00:29:47,300 --> 00:29:51,110
Speaker 3: is the matter with you? Anybody hurt you?'' No, nobody

512
00:29:51,170 --> 00:29:53,110
Speaker 3: hurt me,' panted the other.' Only—'' Ah!

513
00:29:53,470 --> 00:29:53,570
Speaker 1: Ah!

514
00:29:53,590 --> 00:29:59,350
Speaker 3: Only scared you?' queried the peddler, unsympathetically.' Robbers?' Not robbers,

515
00:29:59,490 --> 00:30:03,110
Speaker 3: not robbers, gasped the terrified man. I saw, I saw

516
00:30:03,150 --> 00:30:05,930
Speaker 3: a woman by the moat, and she showed me. Ah,

517
00:30:06,090 --> 00:30:09,380
Speaker 3: I cannot tell you what she showed me. Was it

518
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:13,040
Speaker 3: anything like this that she showed you, cried the Soba man,

519
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:18,460
Speaker 3: stroking his own face, which therewith became like unto an egg,

520
00:30:18,900 --> 00:30:22,770
Speaker 3: and simultaneously the light went out. so it's a double

521
00:30:23,010 --> 00:30:25,950
Speaker 3: double jump scare it's like the john carpenter double double

522
00:30:25,990 --> 00:30:30,100
Speaker 3: dream jump scare yeah but here it's a second faceless

523
00:30:30,140 --> 00:30:33,420
Speaker 3: person he finds the second person oh you know that

524
00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:35,580
Speaker 3: was so scary i gotta tell you what happened and

525
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:38,570
Speaker 3: you think the danger has passed but then strokes his

526
00:30:38,630 --> 00:30:40,150
Speaker 3: face he has no face.

527
00:30:39,970 --> 00:30:44,770
Speaker 2: Either yes yes the no parable here yeah the um

528
00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:49,020
Speaker 2: Sometimes I've seen it translated as the faceless monk, because

529
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:51,660
Speaker 2: I guess sometimes it's a monk. But the main thing

530
00:30:51,740 --> 00:30:55,290
Speaker 2: is that a stranger that one encounters turns out to

531
00:30:55,330 --> 00:30:59,650
Speaker 2: be faceless. You're scared. Then you flee to some perceived

532
00:30:59,710 --> 00:31:02,230
Speaker 2: amount of safety. That safety might be at your random

533
00:31:02,290 --> 00:31:06,610
Speaker 2: noodle salesman, a family member even. And then they reveal

534
00:31:06,630 --> 00:31:10,790
Speaker 2: a faceless face as well. And then we get that

535
00:31:10,850 --> 00:31:13,590
Speaker 2: double jump scare. The double jump, the double fright is

536
00:31:13,770 --> 00:31:14,990
Speaker 2: certainly key to the story.

537
00:31:15,740 --> 00:31:19,110
Speaker 3: So Foster in his book has a note on that

538
00:31:19,190 --> 00:31:21,910
Speaker 3: suffix bow, which you said means monk. He says the

539
00:31:21,930 --> 00:31:25,850
Speaker 3: same thing. It often means monk literally, but he says

540
00:31:25,950 --> 00:31:28,490
Speaker 3: it can be used more generally to refer to a

541
00:31:28,550 --> 00:31:33,160
Speaker 3: person or entity and often means boy. So Foster says

542
00:31:33,220 --> 00:31:37,880
Speaker 3: that the suffix bow is sometimes used to yokai-ify a

543
00:31:38,140 --> 00:31:41,540
Speaker 3: concept word, like to make a concept into a creature.

544
00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:45,840
Speaker 3: So if noperi or nuperi both mean flat-faced, as in

545
00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:50,740
Speaker 3: like smooth or faceless, you know, featureless skin, the nopera

546
00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:56,330
Speaker 3: bow seems to be sort of the creaturely embodiment of facelessness.

547
00:31:56,990 --> 00:31:57,630
Speaker 2: Yeah.

548
00:31:57,650 --> 00:32:00,110
Speaker 3: It's kind of like smooth face boy. Yeah.

549
00:32:01,570 --> 00:32:04,910
Speaker 2: Sometimes they apparently work in groups. So they'll scare an

550
00:32:04,950 --> 00:32:09,430
Speaker 2: individual with a group of no-face turnaround face wipes. You know,

551
00:32:09,470 --> 00:32:11,630
Speaker 2: like you're approaching like a whole crowd and then like, oh,

552
00:32:11,890 --> 00:32:13,570
Speaker 2: they all don't have faces. But then the same thing

553
00:32:13,610 --> 00:32:16,490
Speaker 2: will happen. Run away, find another person and be like,

554
00:32:16,530 --> 00:32:18,370
Speaker 2: you won't believe what I just saw. And they're like, oh,

555
00:32:18,390 --> 00:32:20,390
Speaker 2: you mean like this? And then they did the faceless thing.

556
00:32:20,750 --> 00:32:21,550
Speaker 3: Yeah, totally.

557
00:32:21,610 --> 00:32:21,950
Speaker 2: I love it.

558
00:32:21,950 --> 00:32:23,730
Speaker 3: So can I mention a couple of other tellings?

559
00:32:23,790 --> 00:32:24,300
Speaker 2: Yeah.

560
00:32:24,690 --> 00:32:27,620
Speaker 3: So they're very similar. But Foster mentions a couple of

561
00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:31,040
Speaker 3: other versions in his entry in the Book of Yokai.

562
00:32:31,460 --> 00:32:35,620
Speaker 3: One is from Eomori Prefecture, where the Noparabo is called

563
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:39,000
Speaker 3: the Zunbarabo. And he says there's a story of a

564
00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:42,240
Speaker 3: man walking along a mountain path singing when suddenly he

565
00:32:42,340 --> 00:32:46,520
Speaker 3: hears someone in the distance singing the same song that

566
00:32:46,580 --> 00:32:50,680
Speaker 3: he is, but singing it better, like better singing voice

567
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:53,280
Speaker 3: than his own. And he asks, who could that be?

568
00:32:53,820 --> 00:32:57,220
Speaker 3: Singing that same song, but singing so beautifully. Suddenly, a

569
00:32:57,460 --> 00:33:02,260
Speaker 3: Zunberabo appears with a completely featureless face and says, me! Like,

570
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:05,290
Speaker 3: I'm the one singing. Though I was wondering, how is

571
00:33:05,350 --> 00:33:08,290
Speaker 3: it singing if it has no mouth? I love these contradictions.

572
00:33:08,370 --> 00:33:11,080
Speaker 3: I have no mouth, but I must sing. And the

573
00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:13,540
Speaker 3: man runs away in terror. He goes to a nearby

574
00:33:13,580 --> 00:33:16,400
Speaker 3: village and he meets a friend of his and he

575
00:33:16,500 --> 00:33:18,620
Speaker 3: tells him what happened. And when he gets to the

576
00:33:18,660 --> 00:33:21,340
Speaker 3: end of the story, his friend says, did the Zunberubo

577
00:33:21,420 --> 00:33:24,540
Speaker 3: look like this? And then reveals his own face to

578
00:33:24,580 --> 00:33:26,760
Speaker 3: be blank. And then it says that the man who

579
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:29,660
Speaker 3: had been walking passes out and then dies soon after.

580
00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:33,709
Speaker 2: Oh, wow. I wonder how far anyone's ever carried it, though.

581
00:33:33,730 --> 00:33:35,469
Speaker 2: Can you go for the third where it's like, you

582
00:33:35,510 --> 00:33:39,370
Speaker 2: won't believe what just happened? First person I encountered, faceless.

583
00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:42,290
Speaker 2: Second person I encountered, faceless. And then the third person's like,

584
00:33:42,310 --> 00:33:44,150
Speaker 2: you mean like this? And then we get the third faceless.

585
00:33:44,330 --> 00:33:47,310
Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, at that point, you know, two times and

586
00:33:47,330 --> 00:33:49,550
Speaker 3: it's scary, three times and it's comedy, I guess.

587
00:33:50,230 --> 00:33:51,580
Speaker 2: Three times shame on me, right?

588
00:33:51,890 --> 00:34:05,130
Speaker 3: I guess so. And then Foster tells another one where...

589
00:34:05,890 --> 00:34:08,170
Speaker 3: a man is walking on a mountain path at night

590
00:34:08,610 --> 00:34:10,790
Speaker 3: and he sees a lantern up ahead. Turns out it's

591
00:34:10,830 --> 00:34:12,790
Speaker 3: a house. He goes to the house and there's an

592
00:34:12,850 --> 00:34:15,190
Speaker 3: old woman who answers the door. He asks if he

593
00:34:15,230 --> 00:34:18,109
Speaker 3: can stay at the house. The old woman reveals that

594
00:34:18,310 --> 00:34:20,469
Speaker 3: she has no face and he's like, ah, and then

595
00:34:20,510 --> 00:34:22,790
Speaker 3: he runs away to the next village. He meets a

596
00:34:22,830 --> 00:34:25,330
Speaker 3: young woman. He tells her what happened. She also has

597
00:34:25,390 --> 00:34:29,790
Speaker 3: no face. So again, it's a double scare. Really interesting question, actually.

598
00:34:31,310 --> 00:34:35,469
Speaker 3: Why is there like a thematic reason for Or a

599
00:34:35,670 --> 00:34:40,469
Speaker 3: link here for why the faceless yokai features particularly in

600
00:34:40,510 --> 00:34:43,169
Speaker 3: these stories with double scares, where you think you've made

601
00:34:43,210 --> 00:34:46,430
Speaker 3: it to safety, but there is a second faceless being.

602
00:34:46,450 --> 00:34:50,210
Speaker 3: That does seem significant. Like, it's not just a coincidence

603
00:34:50,310 --> 00:34:52,850
Speaker 3: that that is the type of creature in the story

604
00:34:52,870 --> 00:34:55,330
Speaker 3: with this structure. Though, this is not the only kind

605
00:34:55,370 --> 00:34:58,210
Speaker 3: of story that has this structure, to be clear. But, like,

606
00:34:58,410 --> 00:35:00,790
Speaker 3: the link is very strong. It appears again and again

607
00:35:00,850 --> 00:35:02,770
Speaker 3: with this creature and the double scare.

608
00:35:04,090 --> 00:35:06,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I guess on one level it is like,

609
00:35:06,020 --> 00:35:08,660
Speaker 2: you know, the threat has not been escaped. And we

610
00:35:08,700 --> 00:35:10,719
Speaker 2: see this in so many different horror movies. It's like, oh,

611
00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:12,920
Speaker 2: I got away from the zombies. And then the guy

612
00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:18,259
Speaker 2: at the gas station, also a zombie. But then, yeah,

613
00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:20,969
Speaker 2: thinking again about what it means for something to be faceless.

614
00:35:21,430 --> 00:35:24,569
Speaker 2: It means that this person that you thought you were

615
00:35:24,590 --> 00:35:28,250
Speaker 2: going to have a connection with cannot be connected with.

616
00:35:29,870 --> 00:35:32,950
Speaker 2: And there's something horrifying and isolating in all of that.

617
00:35:33,410 --> 00:35:35,550
Speaker 2: And then to go and try and tell that story again,

618
00:35:35,570 --> 00:35:39,370
Speaker 2: to connect with someone about this and then realize that

619
00:35:39,390 --> 00:35:42,719
Speaker 2: there's no connection to be made there either. It reminds

620
00:35:42,739 --> 00:35:44,800
Speaker 2: me of various other horror stories where we have a

621
00:35:44,860 --> 00:35:48,259
Speaker 2: similar moment, that moment when one realizes the thing that

622
00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:51,640
Speaker 2: you thought you could reason with cannot be reasoned with.

623
00:35:51,660 --> 00:35:55,180
Speaker 2: It's a thing that either exists outside of reason because

624
00:35:55,219 --> 00:35:58,670
Speaker 2: it's not a human, it's an animal. This is a

625
00:35:58,710 --> 00:36:03,089
Speaker 2: twist that is handled exceptionally well in the Jeffrey Household novel.

626
00:36:03,650 --> 00:36:06,330
Speaker 2: Dance of the Dwarves. But you also see other versions

627
00:36:06,370 --> 00:36:08,350
Speaker 2: of it. We were talking about The Ring recently and

628
00:36:08,390 --> 00:36:10,549
Speaker 2: sort of the idea that you reach a point where

629
00:36:10,570 --> 00:36:12,509
Speaker 2: you realize it cannot be bargained with, it can't be

630
00:36:12,570 --> 00:36:16,150
Speaker 2: reasoned with, and that you can't solve the problem. And

631
00:36:16,230 --> 00:36:19,930
Speaker 2: so I think similar things going on in all these stories,

632
00:36:19,989 --> 00:36:24,250
Speaker 2: like you're suddenly just up against a wall and none

633
00:36:24,270 --> 00:36:27,150
Speaker 2: of your human social skills are going to help you.

634
00:36:27,630 --> 00:36:30,750
Speaker 3: That's a really good point, and I think that's correct.

635
00:36:30,810 --> 00:36:34,839
Speaker 3: But at another level, It almost makes me wonder if

636
00:36:35,900 --> 00:36:41,040
Speaker 3: these stories really have some kind of connection to longings

637
00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:44,180
Speaker 3: and frustrations people could feel in which the story is

638
00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:47,500
Speaker 3: almost a metaphor for a situation in life. One can

639
00:36:47,860 --> 00:36:52,110
Speaker 3: find oneself in like, uh, like loneliness, you know, uh,

640
00:36:52,210 --> 00:36:55,910
Speaker 3: that people are often lonely, not just if they're working

641
00:36:55,950 --> 00:36:58,110
Speaker 3: at a lighthouse or, you know, they're a hermit in

642
00:36:58,150 --> 00:37:00,469
Speaker 3: the mountains and they never see anyone. Like you can

643
00:37:00,510 --> 00:37:03,290
Speaker 3: have loneliness among people if you feel like you are

644
00:37:03,530 --> 00:37:07,750
Speaker 3: unable to have a meaningful conversation with the people around

645
00:37:07,810 --> 00:37:10,880
Speaker 3: you or things like that. And so it kind of

646
00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:16,520
Speaker 3: seems significant that a person is seeking comfort in trying

647
00:37:16,540 --> 00:37:20,040
Speaker 3: to talk to someone because the second encounter in all

648
00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:23,290
Speaker 3: these stories, the person is having a conversation. They've met somebody,

649
00:37:23,350 --> 00:37:26,089
Speaker 3: not just somebody who seems safe and like, oh, you're

650
00:37:26,130 --> 00:37:28,270
Speaker 3: not going to eat me or whatever, but they're trying

651
00:37:28,310 --> 00:37:30,610
Speaker 3: to talk to them. They're trying to tell their story.

652
00:37:31,030 --> 00:37:33,850
Speaker 3: And then it turns out that the person, it's, it's

653
00:37:33,930 --> 00:37:36,370
Speaker 3: not like somebody who is listening sympathetically.

654
00:37:36,430 --> 00:37:37,089
Speaker 2: It's somebody who is.

655
00:37:37,170 --> 00:37:40,760
Speaker 3: Also there to reveal their, their frighteningness to them.

656
00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:42,980
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you're right. I think there is something

657
00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:46,840
Speaker 2: to be said about loneliness here and social isolation, because

658
00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:48,739
Speaker 2: it is like an attempt to reach out and have

659
00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:51,819
Speaker 2: some sort of connection with a human being, another human being,

660
00:37:52,180 --> 00:37:53,960
Speaker 2: and then it's shut down or it's impossible.

661
00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:54,840
Speaker 3: Yeah.

662
00:37:55,050 --> 00:37:59,180
Speaker 2: So I think that's a good read. Um, And of course,

663
00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:01,980
Speaker 2: leaning into the nature of spirits in these stories, I

664
00:38:02,020 --> 00:38:04,160
Speaker 2: think the other level of horror is that this is

665
00:38:04,219 --> 00:38:06,759
Speaker 2: not a thing that is going to eat you and

666
00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:09,359
Speaker 2: consume your flesh. It's not something that's going to eat

667
00:38:09,380 --> 00:38:13,819
Speaker 2: your soul, presumably. It's just something that is it's either

668
00:38:13,860 --> 00:38:17,040
Speaker 2: going to just scare you because that's exactly how its

669
00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:20,720
Speaker 2: interactions always go with humans or it is just messing

670
00:38:20,780 --> 00:38:24,620
Speaker 2: with you. Like it's doing this solely just to frighten you,

671
00:38:24,950 --> 00:38:27,270
Speaker 2: which is also like I mean, we can we can.

672
00:38:28,830 --> 00:38:31,750
Speaker 2: humans do this sometimes too, obviously, but like the idea

673
00:38:31,790 --> 00:38:34,130
Speaker 2: that this is all this creature does, like all of

674
00:38:34,190 --> 00:38:36,529
Speaker 2: its interactions with humans are just scaring us. Like there's,

675
00:38:36,690 --> 00:38:39,069
Speaker 2: there's something interesting and alien to that as well.

676
00:38:39,510 --> 00:38:42,150
Speaker 3: It's trolling. Did it look like this?

677
00:38:42,300 --> 00:38:45,140
Speaker 2: The fact that it says it is totally trolling. Yeah. Yeah.

678
00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:49,000
Speaker 3: It's trolling you. Um, it's winding you up with this

679
00:38:49,140 --> 00:38:52,319
Speaker 3: initial encounter and then, and then really like twisting the

680
00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:56,379
Speaker 3: knife with the second encounter. And it, well, I guess

681
00:38:56,600 --> 00:38:59,630
Speaker 3: another thing to ask is, Should we take it in

682
00:38:59,670 --> 00:39:02,370
Speaker 3: these stories when they go and meet a second person?

683
00:39:02,390 --> 00:39:07,950
Speaker 3: Is it like that this spirit is manifest? Is it

684
00:39:07,989 --> 00:39:12,600
Speaker 3: the same spirit manifesting as another person and like tricking them,

685
00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:15,219
Speaker 3: you know, by appearing to be a second person when

686
00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:19,330
Speaker 3: the traveler meets them? Or is it that like underneath

687
00:39:19,530 --> 00:39:22,690
Speaker 3: many people around us are actually no parabo and they

688
00:39:22,690 --> 00:39:25,469
Speaker 3: could reveal themselves at any time? Does that make sense?

689
00:39:25,469 --> 00:39:27,250
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. I mean, it reminds me of, uh, I

690
00:39:27,290 --> 00:39:29,529
Speaker 2: don't have the term, um, queued up here, but there

691
00:39:29,570 --> 00:39:34,350
Speaker 2: are certain neurological conditions that can lead to this perception

692
00:39:34,430 --> 00:39:38,110
Speaker 2: that people are not people or, you know, and I'm

693
00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:42,500
Speaker 2: not saying that really imposters. Yeah. And I'm not saying that, um, that,

694
00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:43,859
Speaker 2: you know, this is a case where, oh, well, this

695
00:39:43,900 --> 00:39:48,500
Speaker 2: entire tradition can be traced. to this particular anomaly. No, no, no. But, uh,

696
00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:51,080
Speaker 2: you know, it's not impossible that it's somewhere in the mix.

697
00:39:51,820 --> 00:39:53,299
Speaker 3: It's been a while since we did this, but my

698
00:39:53,340 --> 00:39:56,480
Speaker 3: memory is that the neurological condition we're talking about there

699
00:39:56,520 --> 00:40:01,219
Speaker 3: is what's known as Capgras delusion. And it is thought to,

700
00:40:01,260 --> 00:40:02,860
Speaker 3: at least the last time I read about this, it

701
00:40:02,890 --> 00:40:07,830
Speaker 3: was thought to arise from, um, a, uh, from a

702
00:40:07,850 --> 00:40:11,370
Speaker 3: condition where the part of your brain that is primarily

703
00:40:11,450 --> 00:40:16,799
Speaker 3: used to recognize faces is intact. So you can recognize

704
00:40:16,860 --> 00:40:20,440
Speaker 3: the face in an informational sense, but the part of

705
00:40:20,560 --> 00:40:23,600
Speaker 3: the brain that is usually used to generate the emotional

706
00:40:23,700 --> 00:40:29,110
Speaker 3: feeling of familiarity in response to recognizing a face is impaired.

707
00:40:29,650 --> 00:40:33,069
Speaker 3: So you have this mismatch in your brain where you

708
00:40:33,150 --> 00:40:36,529
Speaker 3: see faces that look the way they should, but you

709
00:40:36,610 --> 00:40:39,910
Speaker 3: do not have the emotional response that people normally have

710
00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:43,320
Speaker 3: to that, which is the emotion of that person is familiar.

711
00:40:43,890 --> 00:40:47,229
Speaker 3: So you are constantly seeing faces around you that look

712
00:40:47,330 --> 00:40:49,669
Speaker 3: like they should, but you have the feeling that they're

713
00:40:49,710 --> 00:40:51,250
Speaker 3: not the person they seem to be.

714
00:40:52,110 --> 00:40:55,230
Speaker 2: Oh, since we're talking about perceptions of no faces here,

715
00:40:55,250 --> 00:40:58,090
Speaker 2: I want to go ahead and mention that this doesn't

716
00:40:58,130 --> 00:41:00,360
Speaker 2: have anything over describing here. It doesn't have anything to

717
00:41:00,390 --> 00:41:06,200
Speaker 2: do with face blindness or prosopagnosia. This is this is

718
00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:08,760
Speaker 2: despite what you might have seen on, say, TV's Hannibal.

719
00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:12,300
Speaker 2: which is a great show. I loved watching Hannibal. It's

720
00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:16,580
Speaker 2: sort of a sensational, even more sensational send-up of the

721
00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:20,120
Speaker 2: Thomas Harris Hannibal Lecter novels. But there's one episode where

722
00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:23,989
Speaker 2: someone has face blindness, and it's depicted visually in the

723
00:41:24,030 --> 00:41:27,230
Speaker 2: show very much like the ghost story that we're discussing here,

724
00:41:27,250 --> 00:41:29,210
Speaker 2: where you see someone's face and you just see flesh

725
00:41:29,690 --> 00:41:32,009
Speaker 2: and maybe a hint of a skull underneath. That's not

726
00:41:32,050 --> 00:41:35,589
Speaker 2: what people with face blindness experience. It's more of, if

727
00:41:35,660 --> 00:41:39,259
Speaker 2: I understand correctly, seeing a face and then just having...

728
00:41:39,710 --> 00:41:44,810
Speaker 2: certain amounts of additional difficulty in forming an identification off

729
00:41:44,870 --> 00:41:47,090
Speaker 2: of that facial data. Yeah.

730
00:41:47,530 --> 00:41:51,469
Speaker 3: So face blindness or prosopagnosia, we've talked about on the

731
00:41:51,489 --> 00:41:55,299
Speaker 3: show before, and it typically is an impairment of the

732
00:41:55,380 --> 00:41:59,120
Speaker 3: ability to recognize faces quickly and easily the way that

733
00:41:59,160 --> 00:42:02,279
Speaker 3: most people do. Like our brains are finely tuned to

734
00:42:02,340 --> 00:42:04,610
Speaker 3: look at a face and instantly know who we're looking at.

735
00:42:05,350 --> 00:42:08,730
Speaker 3: People with face blindness can see faces just fine. They're

736
00:42:08,750 --> 00:42:12,570
Speaker 3: just not as good at recognizing identity based on looking

737
00:42:12,610 --> 00:42:16,160
Speaker 3: at a face. So often people with prosopagnosia have to

738
00:42:16,340 --> 00:42:21,960
Speaker 3: make conscious mental effort to like remember details of people's

739
00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:24,299
Speaker 3: faces in order to know who they're looking at. They

740
00:42:24,340 --> 00:42:27,460
Speaker 3: need to remember, oh, my friend so-and-so has a mole

741
00:42:27,620 --> 00:42:30,600
Speaker 3: right beside their left eye. So when I see that mole,

742
00:42:30,700 --> 00:42:34,410
Speaker 3: I know that that's Jim. whereas people who don't have

743
00:42:34,469 --> 00:42:36,380
Speaker 3: this condition would never have to make that kind of

744
00:42:36,430 --> 00:42:38,700
Speaker 3: effort because you just see somebody and instantly know who

745
00:42:38,739 --> 00:42:39,080
Speaker 3: it is.

746
00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:42,500
Speaker 2: Yeah, having to depend on things like hairstyle, clothing choices,

747
00:42:42,560 --> 00:42:43,200
Speaker 2: and so forth.

748
00:42:43,500 --> 00:42:43,680
Speaker 1: Yeah.

749
00:42:44,420 --> 00:42:50,180
Speaker 2: Now, you mentioned the idea that Noperibo might be some

750
00:42:50,230 --> 00:42:54,430
Speaker 2: sort of underlying shape-shifting entity, such as a fox spirit,

751
00:42:54,750 --> 00:42:57,970
Speaker 2: such as a tanuki. And I definitely want to mention

752
00:42:58,010 --> 00:43:01,410
Speaker 2: here that we see this exact ghost story pop up

753
00:43:02,040 --> 00:43:07,360
Speaker 2: in the excellent 1994 Studio Ghibli film, Pompoko. This one

754
00:43:07,420 --> 00:43:10,200
Speaker 2: is widely available. Last time I checked, in the US,

755
00:43:10,219 --> 00:43:13,940
Speaker 2: you could stream it on HBO or HBO Max or

756
00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:16,450
Speaker 2: whatever we're calling it at this very moment. It may

757
00:43:16,489 --> 00:43:21,690
Speaker 2: change next week. But the film, Pompoko, is tremendous. It

758
00:43:21,730 --> 00:43:26,690
Speaker 2: is about a group of shape-shifting, talking tanookis who are

759
00:43:27,210 --> 00:43:31,520
Speaker 2: trapped in this struggle between like rural life and modern

760
00:43:31,560 --> 00:43:34,839
Speaker 2: life between like the natural world and the artificial world

761
00:43:34,860 --> 00:43:37,359
Speaker 2: of human beings. You know, a theme that we see

762
00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:41,140
Speaker 2: in various other examples of Japanese cinema and storytelling that

763
00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:42,839
Speaker 2: we've discussed on the show and we've discussed on Weird

764
00:43:42,860 --> 00:43:46,410
Speaker 2: House Cinema. And so there's a particular, there are various

765
00:43:46,469 --> 00:43:48,770
Speaker 2: parts where the Tanookis are trying to figure out how

766
00:43:48,850 --> 00:43:52,070
Speaker 2: to achieve their goals and in some cases push back

767
00:43:52,310 --> 00:43:55,730
Speaker 2: against human expansion and human activity. And so there's at

768
00:43:55,790 --> 00:43:59,670
Speaker 2: least one major scene where The shapeshifting Tanookis just really

769
00:43:59,690 --> 00:44:02,550
Speaker 2: go on the offensive. They essentially put on a yokai

770
00:44:02,610 --> 00:44:06,650
Speaker 2: parade to mess with people. It's an amazing sequence. Definitely

771
00:44:06,690 --> 00:44:09,790
Speaker 2: Halloween worthy. And the whole film is amazing. But at

772
00:44:09,930 --> 00:44:12,229
Speaker 2: one point in the film, there is this moment where

773
00:44:12,590 --> 00:44:16,509
Speaker 2: we see like a policeman on a bicycle on this

774
00:44:16,550 --> 00:44:19,980
Speaker 2: kind of lonesome road, but also one with like clear streetlights.

775
00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:25,279
Speaker 2: And there is a woman bent over, clearly weeping. And

776
00:44:25,300 --> 00:44:27,509
Speaker 2: he comes up to check on her. And then, of course,

777
00:44:27,610 --> 00:44:31,609
Speaker 2: what happens? She reveals she has no face. And then

778
00:44:31,870 --> 00:44:34,830
Speaker 2: he begins to scream. She jumps on his bicycle and

779
00:44:34,890 --> 00:44:38,799
Speaker 2: drives off. But in this case, the faceless entity here

780
00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:40,920
Speaker 2: is actually a shape-shifting Tanuki.

781
00:44:42,100 --> 00:44:45,820
Speaker 3: So, in the same tradition as the Hearn telling of

782
00:44:45,860 --> 00:44:49,839
Speaker 3: the story where it's the Mujina, the shape-shifting animal creature, yeah.

783
00:44:50,450 --> 00:44:53,330
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. Because the Tanukis, they're not altogether bad. They're...

784
00:44:56,280 --> 00:44:59,210
Speaker 2: They're less severe, I guess, compared to the fox spirits, usually.

785
00:44:59,550 --> 00:45:01,890
Speaker 2: The tanookis are a little bit easier going, but they

786
00:45:01,910 --> 00:45:04,049
Speaker 2: can also play their tricks, and that's what's going on here.

787
00:45:06,190 --> 00:45:09,170
Speaker 3: So, based on a lot of these features, the faceless

788
00:45:09,230 --> 00:45:13,410
Speaker 3: yokai is often a prankster or a trickster or even

789
00:45:13,489 --> 00:45:16,480
Speaker 3: a troll of sorts. But that doesn't mean that it's

790
00:45:16,500 --> 00:45:19,340
Speaker 3: just having a harmless bit of fun. I mean, in

791
00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:21,500
Speaker 3: at least one of these stories, it says that the

792
00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:24,680
Speaker 3: person does die afterwards, after the experience.

793
00:45:24,700 --> 00:45:25,239
Speaker 2: Probably because.

794
00:45:26,110 --> 00:45:29,390
Speaker 3: I think it's implied that it was such a terrifying experience.

795
00:45:29,469 --> 00:45:33,509
Speaker 3: They fall ill and die. A similar thing is told

796
00:45:33,550 --> 00:45:36,610
Speaker 3: in some of those ancient ghost stories from the Greco-Roman world,

797
00:45:36,700 --> 00:45:39,739
Speaker 3: from the haunted houses we talked about, where people's experiences

798
00:45:39,780 --> 00:45:42,560
Speaker 3: with the ghost is just so frightening. They fall into

799
00:45:42,660 --> 00:45:47,600
Speaker 3: ill health and die soon after. One other random note

800
00:45:47,719 --> 00:45:50,170
Speaker 3: that I just think is kind of interesting is that

801
00:45:50,750 --> 00:45:54,549
Speaker 3: these stories are supposed to be scary. I think the

802
00:45:54,590 --> 00:45:57,130
Speaker 3: way I read them, they're not supposed to be funny,

803
00:45:57,690 --> 00:46:01,330
Speaker 3: but the comparison of the face to an egg seems

804
00:46:01,390 --> 00:46:04,430
Speaker 3: very funny to me, even though like, I think that

805
00:46:04,510 --> 00:46:06,770
Speaker 3: line is not supposed to be funny in the, like

806
00:46:06,790 --> 00:46:08,950
Speaker 3: in the Hearn telling of the story, his face was

807
00:46:09,090 --> 00:46:10,990
Speaker 3: like unto the flesh.

808
00:46:10,790 --> 00:46:11,390
Speaker 2: Of an egg.

809
00:46:11,410 --> 00:46:14,350
Speaker 3: Uh, you know, it just communicates. It's a comparison that

810
00:46:14,390 --> 00:46:18,370
Speaker 3: shows the smoothness, the featurelessness of the face. But for

811
00:46:18,410 --> 00:46:22,969
Speaker 3: some reason, The egg part translates as comedy. I think

812
00:46:23,010 --> 00:46:25,330
Speaker 3: that's just an interesting cultural, I don't know if that's

813
00:46:25,350 --> 00:46:28,399
Speaker 3: a cultural difference or something across time, but you say

814
00:46:28,660 --> 00:46:32,239
Speaker 3: egg in a horror story like this when talking about

815
00:46:32,280 --> 00:46:34,580
Speaker 3: what something looks like, and that inherently makes it a

816
00:46:34,600 --> 00:46:36,320
Speaker 3: lot less threatening and more funny.

817
00:46:36,900 --> 00:46:40,020
Speaker 2: Well, I think there maybe is sometimes humor to these stories.

818
00:46:40,280 --> 00:46:43,100
Speaker 2: The incident in Pompoko, I think, is played a little

819
00:46:43,120 --> 00:46:45,980
Speaker 2: bit for humor. I included a couple of stills for

820
00:46:46,020 --> 00:46:47,440
Speaker 2: you here, Joe, and I think you can tell by

821
00:46:47,480 --> 00:46:50,359
Speaker 2: the The way that the policeman is screaming, he has

822
00:46:50,410 --> 00:46:57,270
Speaker 2: that wide-mouthed anime sort of scream. I think we're supposed

823
00:46:57,310 --> 00:46:58,310
Speaker 2: to laugh at this moment.

824
00:46:58,469 --> 00:47:01,250
Speaker 3: Yeah, and he's got his fists up like a child screaming.

825
00:47:01,430 --> 00:47:04,350
Speaker 2: Yeah. Though in this case, in Pompoko, we know who's

826
00:47:04,390 --> 00:47:06,690
Speaker 2: behind it, and we're essentially on their side.

827
00:47:07,130 --> 00:47:07,310
Speaker 3: Yeah.

828
00:47:08,810 --> 00:47:11,209
Speaker 2: So at this point in the episode, we're going to

829
00:47:11,430 --> 00:47:16,310
Speaker 2: spend less time talking about some other related ideas of

830
00:47:16,350 --> 00:47:19,370
Speaker 2: the faceless episode. many of which may be directly inspired

831
00:47:19,570 --> 00:47:25,030
Speaker 2: by the Yo-Kai descriptions. But before we do, there's one

832
00:47:25,300 --> 00:47:30,200
Speaker 2: faceless tradition from indigenous American traditions that I wanted to mention,

833
00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:35,700
Speaker 2: a story of the faceless from the Haudenosaunee people, also

834
00:47:35,739 --> 00:47:38,440
Speaker 2: known as the Iroquois. And it goes a little bit

835
00:47:38,460 --> 00:47:43,860
Speaker 2: like this. There are three sisters, three sustainers of life, corn, beans,

836
00:47:43,920 --> 00:47:48,090
Speaker 2: and squash. Corn ends up asking the Great Spirit if

837
00:47:48,110 --> 00:47:50,170
Speaker 2: there's more that she can do for the people. She's

838
00:47:50,350 --> 00:47:52,569
Speaker 2: pleased that people like corn so much. What else can

839
00:47:52,610 --> 00:47:55,700
Speaker 2: I do? And the Spirit allows her then to form

840
00:47:55,760 --> 00:47:59,180
Speaker 2: a doll that might play with the children. And so

841
00:47:59,520 --> 00:48:02,859
Speaker 2: this is like a corn husk doll. And it's given

842
00:48:02,880 --> 00:48:05,580
Speaker 2: a beautiful face. But what happens when you give something

843
00:48:05,600 --> 00:48:08,000
Speaker 2: like this a beautiful face? People start saying, oh, what

844
00:48:08,020 --> 00:48:11,390
Speaker 2: a beautiful doll. It's so beautiful. And the doll becomes vain.

845
00:48:11,510 --> 00:48:13,870
Speaker 2: And the Great Spirit warns her that there are going

846
00:48:13,890 --> 00:48:17,900
Speaker 2: to be consequences. But the people kept telling the doll

847
00:48:17,940 --> 00:48:20,859
Speaker 2: how beautiful it is. It only got worse. It only

848
00:48:20,900 --> 00:48:23,940
Speaker 2: became more vain. So finally, the Great Spirit takes her

849
00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:26,839
Speaker 2: face away. And so this is the idea of why

850
00:48:26,920 --> 00:48:29,660
Speaker 2: does the Cornhus doll have no face? It is supposed

851
00:48:29,700 --> 00:48:32,020
Speaker 2: to teach us something about vanity and pride.

852
00:48:32,580 --> 00:48:33,480
Speaker 3: Oh, that's interesting.

853
00:48:33,780 --> 00:48:33,940
Speaker 1: Yeah.

854
00:48:33,980 --> 00:48:37,900
Speaker 2: So if you pull up some images of various Cornhus dolls,

855
00:48:38,400 --> 00:48:40,200
Speaker 2: I mean, Cornhus dolls, by the nature of the way

856
00:48:40,219 --> 00:48:43,950
Speaker 2: they're made, often have no face. And This is the

857
00:48:43,989 --> 00:48:46,549
Speaker 2: story among these people as to why that is so.

858
00:48:47,290 --> 00:48:50,489
Speaker 3: Even though in some versions of Cornhusk dolls, there can

859
00:48:50,530 --> 00:48:52,970
Speaker 3: be a lot of detail on the rest of the body.

860
00:48:53,530 --> 00:48:56,490
Speaker 3: So it's not just that it's lacking detail in all ways,

861
00:48:56,550 --> 00:48:58,390
Speaker 3: but there can be versions where there's a lot of

862
00:48:58,430 --> 00:49:01,609
Speaker 3: detail in maybe how it's dressed up or, you know,

863
00:49:01,710 --> 00:49:04,989
Speaker 3: other ways the body and accessories are put together, but

864
00:49:05,050 --> 00:49:07,590
Speaker 3: can still have a blank face, which is an interesting,

865
00:49:07,650 --> 00:49:08,470
Speaker 3: deliberate choice.

866
00:49:09,110 --> 00:49:09,430
Speaker 2: Yeah.

867
00:49:16,790 --> 00:49:17,660
Speaker 1: All right.

868
00:49:20,060 --> 00:49:24,400
Speaker 2: Well, let's roll through some other examples here. Some of

869
00:49:24,420 --> 00:49:27,270
Speaker 2: these we'll just mention in passing. I will mention the

870
00:49:27,310 --> 00:49:30,870
Speaker 2: Night Gaunts here from the work of H.P. Lovecraft. These

871
00:49:30,910 --> 00:49:36,230
Speaker 2: are like faceless gargoyles. They pop up, especially in the

872
00:49:36,230 --> 00:49:42,380
Speaker 2: 1926 tale, The Dream Quest of Unknown Kadith. They swoop down,

873
00:49:42,460 --> 00:49:45,620
Speaker 2: they grab you, they take you away, they tickle you

874
00:49:45,660 --> 00:49:48,460
Speaker 2: a little bit. But in a way, they kind of

875
00:49:48,480 --> 00:49:50,500
Speaker 2: match up with some of these yokai traditions in that

876
00:49:50,560 --> 00:49:53,009
Speaker 2: they are not trying to eat you. And that makes

877
00:49:53,050 --> 00:49:55,509
Speaker 2: them even more alien. Like you're not, what are you doing?

878
00:49:55,530 --> 00:49:57,310
Speaker 2: You're just tickling me a little bit and you're taking

879
00:49:57,330 --> 00:49:59,650
Speaker 2: me to meet something else. It's a little bit weird.

880
00:50:00,660 --> 00:50:03,930
Speaker 2: And then Lovecraft also wrote about it in a 1930 poem.

881
00:50:04,210 --> 00:50:09,049
Speaker 2: It's a sonnet contained in The Fungi from Ugoth. And

882
00:50:09,070 --> 00:50:11,990
Speaker 2: I will read this real quick because it's rather nice.

883
00:50:12,770 --> 00:50:15,360
Speaker 2: Out of what crypt they crawl, I cannot tell. But

884
00:50:15,460 --> 00:50:19,320
Speaker 2: every night I see the rubbery things, black, horned, and slender,

885
00:50:19,800 --> 00:50:24,240
Speaker 2: with membranous wings and tails that bear the biffid barb

886
00:50:24,280 --> 00:50:27,739
Speaker 2: of hell. They come in legions on the north wind swells.

887
00:50:28,330 --> 00:50:32,799
Speaker 2: with obscene clutch that titillates and stings, snatching me off

888
00:50:32,980 --> 00:50:39,000
Speaker 2: on monstrous voyagings to gray worlds hidden deep in nightmares well.

889
00:50:39,760 --> 00:50:43,469
Speaker 2: Over the jagged peaks of thought they sweep, heedless of

890
00:50:43,550 --> 00:50:46,210
Speaker 2: all the cries I try to make, and down the

891
00:50:46,270 --> 00:50:50,070
Speaker 2: nether pits to that foul lake where the puffed shoggoths

892
00:50:50,150 --> 00:50:53,950
Speaker 2: splash in doubtful sleep. But oh, if only they would

893
00:50:53,989 --> 00:50:57,560
Speaker 2: make some sound, or where a face or faces should

894
00:50:57,580 --> 00:50:58,040
Speaker 2: be found.

895
00:50:59,620 --> 00:51:04,840
Speaker 3: So the facelessness is part of a generally non-responsive piece.

896
00:51:04,860 --> 00:51:07,469
Speaker 3: So it has no face to reflect back to him

897
00:51:07,570 --> 00:51:09,830
Speaker 3: to tell it what it's feeling, and it says nothing.

898
00:51:09,969 --> 00:51:13,270
Speaker 2: So it's just kind of mechanical. So here we reveal

899
00:51:13,350 --> 00:51:15,410
Speaker 2: kind of a cosmic horror take on all of this.

900
00:51:16,350 --> 00:51:18,580
Speaker 2: And there are some great illustrations of this creature. Michael

901
00:51:18,900 --> 00:51:21,500
Speaker 2: Whelan in particular had a really nice one in black

902
00:51:21,540 --> 00:51:25,339
Speaker 2: and white for some Lovecraft volume or another. And they

903
00:51:25,360 --> 00:51:27,660
Speaker 2: actually pop up in the most recent Dungeons and Dragons

904
00:51:27,739 --> 00:51:31,150
Speaker 2: Ravenloft supplement as well as a monster that your characters

905
00:51:31,190 --> 00:51:35,890
Speaker 2: can encounter. We already mentioned Miyazaki, so I guess we

906
00:51:35,930 --> 00:51:38,830
Speaker 2: should mention the character No-Face who pops up in Spirited

907
00:51:38,870 --> 00:51:41,609
Speaker 2: Away from 2001, a movie that we've discussed on Weird

908
00:51:41,630 --> 00:51:42,270
Speaker 2: House Cinema.

909
00:51:42,730 --> 00:51:45,490
Speaker 3: This is a great character in this movie, but despite

910
00:51:45,510 --> 00:51:48,520
Speaker 3: the fact that it's called No-Face, this is not a no-parabow.

911
00:51:48,969 --> 00:51:51,410
Speaker 2: Yeah, as it's revealed in Spirited Away, what we have

912
00:51:51,450 --> 00:51:55,490
Speaker 2: here is kind of an amorphous black spirit blob, again,

913
00:51:55,570 --> 00:51:58,620
Speaker 2: kind of transcending that place between spirit and flesh, and

914
00:51:58,640 --> 00:52:01,680
Speaker 2: we are in spirit realm at this point. It has

915
00:52:01,719 --> 00:52:05,260
Speaker 2: a mouth, but no real face. It is a creature

916
00:52:05,300 --> 00:52:09,450
Speaker 2: of vast hunger, but also one lacking in identity. We

917
00:52:09,489 --> 00:52:12,850
Speaker 2: discussed this a little bit in our episode on Spirited Away.

918
00:52:13,810 --> 00:52:17,180
Speaker 2: It needs to have an identity, and it will... consume

919
00:52:17,219 --> 00:52:21,299
Speaker 2: that based on whatever is around it yeah but in

920
00:52:21,520 --> 00:52:25,529
Speaker 2: uh you know i guess in physical description uh not

921
00:52:25,550 --> 00:52:28,489
Speaker 2: really dealing with the identity aspects of it um a

922
00:52:28,830 --> 00:52:32,009
Speaker 2: faceless creature that does have a mouth uh this is

923
00:52:32,310 --> 00:52:33,850
Speaker 2: i think going to be rather familiar to a lot

924
00:52:33,890 --> 00:52:36,470
Speaker 2: of people because to a large extent this is exactly

925
00:52:36,530 --> 00:52:39,610
Speaker 2: what the xenomorph of the alien franchise is right it's

926
00:52:39,650 --> 00:52:41,779
Speaker 2: got a mouth does it have eyes does it have

927
00:52:41,820 --> 00:52:43,640
Speaker 2: a nose no but it certainly has a mouth has

928
00:52:43,900 --> 00:52:46,290
Speaker 2: i guess two of them technically It's all mouth and

929
00:52:46,330 --> 00:52:46,870
Speaker 2: no face.

930
00:52:47,530 --> 00:52:51,860
Speaker 3: So a very creepy thing about the Xenomorph is that

931
00:52:52,520 --> 00:52:55,919
Speaker 3: if you look up the costume design from the original

932
00:52:56,000 --> 00:52:59,780
Speaker 3: movie from 1979, this did change across the different films.

933
00:53:00,280 --> 00:53:05,420
Speaker 3: But in the 79 movie, there is a very faint

934
00:53:05,580 --> 00:53:09,330
Speaker 3: suggestion of a more complete face or at least eye

935
00:53:09,410 --> 00:53:13,690
Speaker 3: sockets and a kind of bone nose socket in the costumes.

936
00:53:14,290 --> 00:53:16,330
Speaker 3: But you don't really see it in the movie. Like

937
00:53:16,390 --> 00:53:19,410
Speaker 3: the creature in the movie is shot under these lower

938
00:53:19,450 --> 00:53:22,450
Speaker 3: light conditions. And in the shots where we can see

939
00:53:22,489 --> 00:53:24,969
Speaker 3: the alien's head, you can't really make out the eyes.

940
00:53:25,030 --> 00:53:27,270
Speaker 3: But you can look this up in pictures that you

941
00:53:27,290 --> 00:53:31,130
Speaker 3: can find on the Internet. Basically, in the original movie,

942
00:53:31,570 --> 00:53:35,810
Speaker 3: the smooth top of the alien's long head was a

943
00:53:36,410 --> 00:53:41,620
Speaker 3: semi-translucent dome. And in shots from the set where you

944
00:53:41,640 --> 00:53:44,360
Speaker 3: can see the whole thing, you can see these deep,

945
00:53:44,640 --> 00:53:49,370
Speaker 3: hollow eye sockets behind the translucent skin positioned over the

946
00:53:49,410 --> 00:53:51,469
Speaker 3: mouth in a way that makes the front of the

947
00:53:51,610 --> 00:53:56,029
Speaker 3: alien's head actually resemble a human skull. So, Rob, I've

948
00:53:56,050 --> 00:53:58,390
Speaker 3: got pictures for you to look at in the outline here.

949
00:53:59,489 --> 00:54:02,510
Speaker 3: Just a few you can scroll down. In some pictures,

950
00:54:02,550 --> 00:54:03,629
Speaker 3: you can actually see the.

951
00:54:05,760 --> 00:54:08,279
Speaker 3: See shots of the actor in the costume with the

952
00:54:08,460 --> 00:54:11,540
Speaker 3: translucent dome on the top of the head taken off

953
00:54:12,040 --> 00:54:15,320
Speaker 3: so you can fully see the skull. It's a very,

954
00:54:16,580 --> 00:54:20,740
Speaker 3: extremely creepy, unsettling look, but for some reason they ended

955
00:54:20,780 --> 00:54:23,360
Speaker 3: up deciding they liked it better with the dome on top.

956
00:54:23,890 --> 00:54:26,650
Speaker 3: In shots where you can kind of see the impression

957
00:54:26,730 --> 00:54:29,310
Speaker 3: of the skull underneath, it's a very nasty look.

958
00:54:29,900 --> 00:54:32,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think they made the right choice because I

959
00:54:32,300 --> 00:54:35,920
Speaker 2: think the xenomorph works better, essentially playing into some of

960
00:54:35,980 --> 00:54:38,750
Speaker 2: what we're talking about here as this thing that can't

961
00:54:38,790 --> 00:54:41,630
Speaker 2: be reasoned with. Like it's not human. It is totally alien.

962
00:54:41,650 --> 00:54:44,790
Speaker 2: And if you could see the eyes on some level,

963
00:54:44,830 --> 00:54:46,989
Speaker 2: it kind of messes with that concept. But I've always

964
00:54:47,070 --> 00:54:50,149
Speaker 2: loved this detail. And I love I mean, on one hand,

965
00:54:50,250 --> 00:54:53,510
Speaker 2: like this is the alien is not completely the adult

966
00:54:53,550 --> 00:54:55,540
Speaker 2: alien we encounter in the first film is not completely

967
00:54:55,580 --> 00:54:59,450
Speaker 2: divorced from humanity. It is, after all, Kane's son. It

968
00:54:59,510 --> 00:55:02,489
Speaker 2: has some amount of human genetics to it. So it

969
00:55:02,530 --> 00:55:05,739
Speaker 2: makes sense that there would be at least some leftovers

970
00:55:05,860 --> 00:55:09,640
Speaker 2: of the human form in its form and that, you know,

971
00:55:09,719 --> 00:55:12,799
Speaker 2: kind of like, you know, atrophied or whatever inside of it.

972
00:55:13,120 --> 00:55:15,819
Speaker 2: I've also seen certainly there are various toys that will

973
00:55:15,880 --> 00:55:19,640
Speaker 2: accentuate the eyes, the hidden eyes of the xenomorph and

974
00:55:20,239 --> 00:55:23,160
Speaker 2: various works of art. I've also seen in some of

975
00:55:23,200 --> 00:55:26,700
Speaker 2: the expanded alien lore, like the RPGs and the video games,

976
00:55:26,719 --> 00:55:29,350
Speaker 2: that sometimes this will be depicted as kind of like

977
00:55:29,670 --> 00:55:34,710
Speaker 2: a different sort of xenomorph. Like, I don't know, like

978
00:55:34,750 --> 00:55:37,430
Speaker 2: some other type of infection causes a person to be

979
00:55:37,469 --> 00:55:40,379
Speaker 2: a body burster or something where there's a different sort

980
00:55:40,400 --> 00:55:45,300
Speaker 2: of transformation into xenomorph and maybe more human features are retained.

981
00:55:46,480 --> 00:55:47,020
Speaker 3: Interesting.

982
00:55:47,180 --> 00:55:47,419
Speaker 2: Yeah.

983
00:55:48,219 --> 00:55:51,250
Speaker 3: But yeah, I agree with you. In the end, one

984
00:55:51,290 --> 00:55:54,250
Speaker 3: thing that's very creepy about the xenomorph is you can't,

985
00:55:55,219 --> 00:56:00,080
Speaker 3: You kind of can't tell how intelligent it is or

986
00:56:00,320 --> 00:56:03,299
Speaker 3: like this is actually discussed in the movies at some

987
00:56:03,320 --> 00:56:06,500
Speaker 3: point in aliens. This comes up when, you know, they

988
00:56:06,540 --> 00:56:09,520
Speaker 3: cut the power and Bill Paxton says, how can they

989
00:56:09,560 --> 00:56:11,779
Speaker 3: cut the power man? They're animals. But it kind of

990
00:56:11,820 --> 00:56:14,500
Speaker 3: raises the question of like, we just can't really tell

991
00:56:14,739 --> 00:56:18,580
Speaker 3: quite how smart they are, exactly what they understand about us.

992
00:56:19,040 --> 00:56:23,080
Speaker 3: Maybe they're something a little bit closer to human level intelligence,

993
00:56:23,200 --> 00:56:25,799
Speaker 3: even though they don't communicate. And just the fact that

994
00:56:25,820 --> 00:56:28,779
Speaker 3: they're without eyes and they don't have language kind of

995
00:56:28,840 --> 00:56:32,239
Speaker 3: hides their intelligence from us. Or maybe they are more

996
00:56:32,300 --> 00:56:35,610
Speaker 3: like animals. Like that ambiguity is part of the creepiness.

997
00:56:35,930 --> 00:56:38,710
Speaker 2: I think so, yeah. They can also use an elevator

998
00:56:39,350 --> 00:56:42,290
Speaker 2: one way or another. But yeah, I love this ambiguity

999
00:56:42,450 --> 00:56:44,529
Speaker 2: of not really knowing for sure. And of course, you

1000
00:56:44,570 --> 00:56:47,950
Speaker 2: get into the weeds of the making of the first alien.

1001
00:56:47,969 --> 00:56:51,230
Speaker 2: And you realize they were really making calls on this

1002
00:56:51,570 --> 00:56:53,990
Speaker 2: pretty late in the picture. I think at some point

1003
00:56:54,010 --> 00:56:57,090
Speaker 2: in the script... the alien was going to answer a

1004
00:56:57,130 --> 00:56:58,910
Speaker 2: call at the very end of the film and answer

1005
00:56:58,930 --> 00:57:02,989
Speaker 2: in a human voice. I think we can all say, thankfully,

1006
00:57:03,630 --> 00:57:05,469
Speaker 2: they cut that. That's a good thing that we didn't

1007
00:57:05,510 --> 00:57:07,930
Speaker 2: go in that direction. I don't think the xenomorph needs

1008
00:57:07,989 --> 00:57:10,719
Speaker 2: to talk or mimic human language. It would have been

1009
00:57:10,739 --> 00:57:13,000
Speaker 2: a creepy moment, but that would have changed everything.

1010
00:57:13,360 --> 00:57:16,100
Speaker 3: It is much creepier when it's an open question. That

1011
00:57:16,300 --> 00:57:20,500
Speaker 3: unresolvedness is actually a source of terror in itself.

1012
00:57:20,880 --> 00:57:24,600
Speaker 2: And it plays very well with the faceless, again, not being...

1013
00:57:25,140 --> 00:57:27,910
Speaker 2: sure what's going on there because there's the communication is

1014
00:57:27,950 --> 00:57:29,550
Speaker 2: cut off and the identity is cut.

1015
00:57:29,450 --> 00:57:32,850
Speaker 3: Off totally all.

1016
00:57:31,670 --> 00:57:34,510
Speaker 2: Right let's let's roll through some other examples here um

1017
00:57:34,740 --> 00:57:37,540
Speaker 2: i guess we have to mention slender man um an

1018
00:57:37,600 --> 00:57:44,000
Speaker 2: internet entity uh you know creepypasta born out of around

1019
00:57:44,000 --> 00:57:48,150
Speaker 2: 2009 probably the most famous creepypasta specific entity at least

1020
00:57:48,470 --> 00:57:51,930
Speaker 2: as of this recording There's been at least one movie made,

1021
00:57:51,970 --> 00:57:54,810
Speaker 2: a lot of Internet activity around him, often depicted as

1022
00:57:54,850 --> 00:57:58,930
Speaker 2: like a tall man in a suit, sometimes with black

1023
00:57:58,970 --> 00:58:04,150
Speaker 2: tentacles in the background, but generally a completely featureless, fleshy head.

1024
00:58:04,290 --> 00:58:07,450
Speaker 2: So no eyes, no mouth, no ears, no hair, any

1025
00:58:07,490 --> 00:58:07,820
Speaker 2: of that.

1026
00:58:07,840 --> 00:58:08,430
Speaker 1: Hmm.

1027
00:58:09,980 --> 00:58:12,420
Speaker 3: It's been around the block a few times now, but

1028
00:58:12,820 --> 00:58:17,390
Speaker 3: I still don't know anything about Slender Man. Never checked

1029
00:58:17,470 --> 00:58:17,870
Speaker 3: in on this.

1030
00:58:18,890 --> 00:58:21,230
Speaker 2: I don't know any of the deeper lore. A lot

1031
00:58:21,270 --> 00:58:25,430
Speaker 2: of this is user-created. It's part of different people adding

1032
00:58:25,470 --> 00:58:30,120
Speaker 2: different things to it. There have been papers written about

1033
00:58:30,160 --> 00:58:34,360
Speaker 2: Slender Man, for sure. Obviously, this is just playing up

1034
00:58:34,400 --> 00:58:37,490
Speaker 2: on the idea that It is alien. It's not human.

1035
00:58:37,530 --> 00:58:39,760
Speaker 2: We can't connect with it. We don't know what it wants,

1036
00:58:39,800 --> 00:58:43,900
Speaker 2: but probably nothing good. Let's see, from the video game world,

1037
00:58:44,460 --> 00:58:48,080
Speaker 2: I was reminded of the nurses from the Silent Hill franchise.

1038
00:58:48,660 --> 00:58:52,460
Speaker 2: I think particularly from Silent Hill 2 in 2001, the

1039
00:58:52,500 --> 00:58:55,060
Speaker 2: nurses have popped up a lot, and I think it

1040
00:58:55,120 --> 00:58:59,920
Speaker 2: varies how faceless they are. Sometimes it's distorted meat on

1041
00:58:59,940 --> 00:59:02,380
Speaker 2: their face, and generally the rest of their body is

1042
00:59:02,440 --> 00:59:03,880
Speaker 2: like sexy lady zombie.

1043
00:59:04,890 --> 00:59:07,520
Speaker 3: Sometimes it seems like their head is sort of covered

1044
00:59:07,580 --> 00:59:09,870
Speaker 3: in some kind of balloon or something.

1045
00:59:09,890 --> 00:59:09,970
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1046
00:59:10,130 --> 00:59:15,690
Speaker 3: Their face is hidden behind some translucent or mostly opaque

1047
00:59:15,810 --> 00:59:17,190
Speaker 3: kind of membrane.

1048
00:59:17,210 --> 00:59:20,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, or like, you know, weird flesh, grave flesh, kind

1049
00:59:20,890 --> 00:59:24,200
Speaker 2: of like with their first yokai that we mentioned here. Yeah,

1050
00:59:24,220 --> 00:59:27,980
Speaker 2: so their exact appearance varies. They do definitely have a

1051
00:59:28,220 --> 00:59:33,810
Speaker 2: faceless look. in the movies, particularly 2006's Silent Hill, and

1052
00:59:33,830 --> 00:59:36,510
Speaker 2: I think also in 2012's Silent Hill Revelation, though I

1053
00:59:36,530 --> 00:59:40,110
Speaker 2: haven't actually seen that one. But I understand it has

1054
00:59:40,280 --> 00:59:46,280
Speaker 2: its positive qualities as well. But yeah, I think basically

1055
00:59:46,300 --> 00:59:48,760
Speaker 2: we're just playing here with the idea that it's faceless,

1056
00:59:48,820 --> 00:59:50,520
Speaker 2: it's creepy, we don't know what it, you know, the

1057
00:59:50,560 --> 00:59:55,100
Speaker 2: same aspects that we've been discussing. And then, I don't know,

1058
00:59:55,120 --> 00:59:58,860
Speaker 2: by having the sort of like at least partially sexy

1059
00:59:59,020 --> 01:00:03,480
Speaker 2: female body is also engaging in some like weird territory

1060
01:00:03,540 --> 01:00:05,520
Speaker 2: as well, you know, like remove the head of the

1061
01:00:05,560 --> 01:00:08,580
Speaker 2: female form and, you know, just like an exercise in

1062
01:00:09,240 --> 01:00:13,330
Speaker 2: objectifying the form, generally something you see in photography and

1063
01:00:13,710 --> 01:00:17,170
Speaker 2: cropping of images. But here it's done via like the

1064
01:00:17,230 --> 01:00:19,870
Speaker 2: faceless mass at the top of the creature.

1065
01:00:20,410 --> 01:00:23,090
Speaker 3: That was my interpretation of sort of what the nurse

1066
01:00:23,150 --> 01:00:25,430
Speaker 3: is supposed to mean in Silent Hill 2. Is it

1067
01:00:25,510 --> 01:00:26,250
Speaker 3: something about.

1068
01:00:26,890 --> 01:00:28,169
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it's about the character, right?

1069
01:00:28,330 --> 01:00:31,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, like the character is, there's some kind of suppressed

1070
01:00:32,520 --> 01:00:36,660
Speaker 3: misogyny and objectification within the character, within the main character.

1071
01:00:37,640 --> 01:00:40,520
Speaker 3: And that is expressed through these characters that have kind

1072
01:00:40,540 --> 01:00:43,880
Speaker 3: of sexualized bodies, but hidden faces. And, you know, that's

1073
01:00:43,920 --> 01:00:45,740
Speaker 3: like taking away their humanity.

1074
01:00:45,760 --> 01:00:49,340
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. It's been so long since I actually played

1075
01:00:49,390 --> 01:00:52,010
Speaker 2: Silent Hill 2. I remember loving it, just finding it

1076
01:00:52,050 --> 01:00:55,110
Speaker 2: very enthralling and all the like hidden details and lore.

1077
01:00:56,220 --> 01:01:01,540
Speaker 2: But yeah, yeah, obviously a great game. Let's see other examples. Oh,

1078
01:01:01,660 --> 01:01:05,120
Speaker 2: we have, let's see, I guess a couple of examples

1079
01:01:05,800 --> 01:01:08,920
Speaker 2: to mention here where it is, there's no supernatural element

1080
01:01:08,960 --> 01:01:12,520
Speaker 2: going on. It is just somebody wearing a mask that

1081
01:01:12,980 --> 01:01:15,640
Speaker 2: is featureless, like a stocking or some other kind of

1082
01:01:15,660 --> 01:01:18,080
Speaker 2: mask that looks at least from a distance like a

1083
01:01:18,160 --> 01:01:21,060
Speaker 2: blank flesh mask. And I think the two main examples

1084
01:01:21,080 --> 01:01:23,820
Speaker 2: that come to mind for me of this are, of course,

1085
01:01:23,920 --> 01:01:27,140
Speaker 2: the blank from Dick Tracy. This is a character from the,

1086
01:01:27,300 --> 01:01:28,540
Speaker 2: you know, I think it was introduced in 1937. And

1087
01:01:28,560 --> 01:01:33,160
Speaker 2: then in the 1990 film, we have this character plays

1088
01:01:33,200 --> 01:01:37,140
Speaker 2: a major part in the plot and at times looks

1089
01:01:37,220 --> 01:01:38,950
Speaker 2: kind of fleshy the way that it's lit.

1090
01:01:39,550 --> 01:01:42,050
Speaker 3: Is the character in the movie just called No Face?

1091
01:01:42,810 --> 01:01:45,910
Speaker 2: The blank. Oh, OK. I thought unless I don't know,

1092
01:01:45,930 --> 01:01:47,790
Speaker 2: I haven't seen this movie in a while, but generally

1093
01:01:47,830 --> 01:01:48,830
Speaker 2: the character is called the blank.

1094
01:01:49,530 --> 01:01:52,290
Speaker 3: It would fit because I haven't seen the movie in

1095
01:01:52,310 --> 01:01:54,010
Speaker 3: a long time either, but I remember a lot of

1096
01:01:54,030 --> 01:01:56,440
Speaker 3: the characters are just called things like Big Head or

1097
01:01:56,520 --> 01:01:57,840
Speaker 3: Little Face or something.

1098
01:01:58,380 --> 01:02:03,780
Speaker 2: Yeah, the way the caricature style of illustration from the

1099
01:02:04,360 --> 01:02:08,500
Speaker 2: original Dick Tracy comics are, of course, realized in the

1100
01:02:08,560 --> 01:02:12,540
Speaker 2: film as if all the gangsters are mutants. We may

1101
01:02:12,580 --> 01:02:14,620
Speaker 2: have to revisit it on Weird House Cinema at some

1102
01:02:14,660 --> 01:02:18,730
Speaker 2: point because it's a strange one. But there's another... Weird

1103
01:02:18,770 --> 01:02:21,820
Speaker 2: house adjacent film that is pretty famous for this. And that,

1104
01:02:21,840 --> 01:02:25,780
Speaker 2: of course, is Mario Bava's Blood and Black Lace from 1964.

1105
01:02:25,780 --> 01:02:28,280
Speaker 3: I was going to say that where the killer in

1106
01:02:28,320 --> 01:02:31,550
Speaker 3: that movie, their face is hidden behind. It's like a

1107
01:02:31,590 --> 01:02:34,250
Speaker 3: stocking or something, but it just renders them as a

1108
01:02:34,310 --> 01:02:37,090
Speaker 3: totally blank face that, you know, you just see kind

1109
01:02:37,130 --> 01:02:39,590
Speaker 3: of a bump for a nose and that's it.

1110
01:02:40,010 --> 01:02:44,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. Riveting film. The tension you could you could

1111
01:02:44,600 --> 01:02:47,660
Speaker 2: cut with a knife in that one. It's great. Um,

1112
01:02:47,760 --> 01:02:49,880
Speaker 2: let's see what other example I have just a couple

1113
01:02:49,920 --> 01:02:52,260
Speaker 2: more that come to mind. There's a particular image from

1114
01:02:52,300 --> 01:02:54,060
Speaker 2: a film I have not yet been able to see.

1115
01:02:54,140 --> 01:02:57,100
Speaker 2: I can't find a version of it that is, uh,

1116
01:02:57,260 --> 01:03:00,400
Speaker 2: that has subtitles. Uh, yet I don't know that it

1117
01:03:00,440 --> 01:03:03,680
Speaker 2: has a proper release and a physical release anywhere. And

1118
01:03:03,720 --> 01:03:07,290
Speaker 2: that is 1950s. The man without a face at Lombres

1119
01:03:07,350 --> 01:03:11,470
Speaker 2: in Rostro. Uh, this is a 1950 Mexican noir film

1120
01:03:11,570 --> 01:03:15,330
Speaker 2: that I has some surreal dreamlike imagery in it. And, uh,

1121
01:03:16,140 --> 01:03:18,630
Speaker 2: look up a still from this, look it up on Letterboxd,

1122
01:03:18,970 --> 01:03:23,270
Speaker 2: and you'll see this horrifying image, you know, very noir-coated

1123
01:03:23,770 --> 01:03:26,750
Speaker 2: sequence where there's a frightened man, and behind him, putting

1124
01:03:26,770 --> 01:03:31,100
Speaker 2: a hand on his shoulder, is an individual in black

1125
01:03:31,360 --> 01:03:34,600
Speaker 2: with a big black hat, and his face looks like

1126
01:03:34,930 --> 01:03:38,160
Speaker 2: like flesh stretched over a skull, but with no facial

1127
01:03:38,200 --> 01:03:41,939
Speaker 2: features otherwise. Super creepy, yeah. Yeah, I have no idea.

1128
01:03:41,980 --> 01:03:44,560
Speaker 2: I've read good things about this film, but I just,

1129
01:03:45,140 --> 01:03:48,260
Speaker 2: and I have found streams of it that do not

1130
01:03:48,280 --> 01:03:50,620
Speaker 2: have subtitles, but it seems like the sort of film

1131
01:03:50,660 --> 01:03:53,860
Speaker 2: where I really need to know what everyone's saying. And

1132
01:03:54,100 --> 01:03:57,210
Speaker 2: I'm hesitant to use sort of auto-generated subtitles on a

1133
01:03:57,250 --> 01:03:59,310
Speaker 2: film like this because I want to know exactly what

1134
01:03:59,370 --> 01:04:02,210
Speaker 2: is supposed to be conveyed. Otherwise, it's like the film

1135
01:04:02,250 --> 01:04:06,600
Speaker 2: has no face, right? Let's see. And then the other example,

1136
01:04:06,640 --> 01:04:08,620
Speaker 2: there are a couple of additional examples, I guess, from

1137
01:04:08,640 --> 01:04:17,550
Speaker 2: the world of creepypasta. In the SCP universe, there's SCP-3008-2,

1138
01:04:17,650 --> 01:04:19,970
Speaker 2: which is some sort of faceless entity that kind of

1139
01:04:19,990 --> 01:04:22,669
Speaker 2: works like the yokai that we're talking about. And then

1140
01:04:22,930 --> 01:04:29,220
Speaker 2: also in the sort of expanded user-generated world of backrooms,

1141
01:04:29,780 --> 01:04:33,280
Speaker 2: there's also some sort of an entity known as facelings,

1142
01:04:33,340 --> 01:04:36,440
Speaker 2: I think. And these are like faceless humanoids that are

1143
01:04:36,460 --> 01:04:39,080
Speaker 2: found wandering around in the back rooms. They do not

1144
01:04:39,160 --> 01:04:42,100
Speaker 2: feature into the 2026 film, which I just saw the

1145
01:04:42,140 --> 01:04:43,360
Speaker 2: other day and really loved.

1146
01:04:43,900 --> 01:04:45,560
Speaker 3: Oh, I was curious about that movie after it got

1147
01:04:45,600 --> 01:04:47,050
Speaker 3: some good reviews, but I haven't seen it.

1148
01:04:47,500 --> 01:04:50,070
Speaker 2: Yeah, I highly recommend it. It's a great ride, and

1149
01:04:50,390 --> 01:04:53,770
Speaker 2: they play a Boards of Canada song over the end credits. So, yeah,

1150
01:04:53,850 --> 01:04:54,630
Speaker 2: six stars from me.

1151
01:04:56,250 --> 01:04:57,470
Speaker 3: Do they ever go to the front rooms?

1152
01:04:58,570 --> 01:05:00,490
Speaker 2: I mean, I think the front rooms are the world

1153
01:05:00,510 --> 01:05:05,220
Speaker 2: we live in. The back rooms are beyond, yeah. Beyond that,

1154
01:05:05,260 --> 01:05:08,050
Speaker 2: I really don't know much about the backroom's lore, and

1155
01:05:08,130 --> 01:05:11,010
Speaker 2: it's certainly not necessary to enjoy the film. In fact,

1156
01:05:11,050 --> 01:05:12,670
Speaker 2: I would say just go into the film cold and

1157
01:05:12,710 --> 01:05:14,290
Speaker 2: experience it. Okay.

1158
01:05:14,610 --> 01:05:15,910
Speaker 3: I won't ask any more questions.

1159
01:05:16,210 --> 01:05:18,850
Speaker 2: I mean, you can, but I may refuse to answer them.

1160
01:05:20,330 --> 01:05:23,040
Speaker 3: Okay, well, I think that's all I had on Creatures

1161
01:05:23,080 --> 01:05:23,800
Speaker 3: Without Faces.

1162
01:05:23,860 --> 01:05:26,700
Speaker 2: How about you? I think so, but obviously there are

1163
01:05:26,740 --> 01:05:29,620
Speaker 2: plenty that we haven't discussed here that we may not

1164
01:05:29,640 --> 01:05:33,160
Speaker 2: even know about. Like, for instance, I'm currently watching My

1165
01:05:33,200 --> 01:05:36,820
Speaker 2: Hero Academia, the anime show with my kiddo. And I'm

1166
01:05:36,900 --> 01:05:40,020
Speaker 2: sure like the character designs in this are amazing. There's

1167
01:05:40,120 --> 01:05:43,220
Speaker 2: bound to be a faceless character that's going to show up.

1168
01:05:43,620 --> 01:05:46,910
Speaker 2: So I just don't know about it yet. Likewise, Pokemon.

1169
01:05:47,170 --> 01:05:49,430
Speaker 2: I'm sure there's a faceless Pokemon out there and I

1170
01:05:49,550 --> 01:05:51,570
Speaker 2: know you're going to tell us about it. So please

1171
01:05:51,610 --> 01:05:54,790
Speaker 2: write in with these and any other examples from horror,

1172
01:05:54,890 --> 01:05:59,870
Speaker 2: comic books, folklore, mythology and so forth. Um, dreams. Uh, yeah,

1173
01:05:59,910 --> 01:06:01,470
Speaker 2: we want to hear about them and we'll discuss them,

1174
01:06:01,710 --> 01:06:03,950
Speaker 2: discuss them in a future listener mail episode.

1175
01:06:04,730 --> 01:06:08,370
Speaker 3: Uh, have I told you that, uh, my daughter has

1176
01:06:08,470 --> 01:06:12,750
Speaker 3: just started, uh, coming, coming back from meetings with other

1177
01:06:12,790 --> 01:06:17,520
Speaker 3: children with Pokemon information. Oh, nice. Like she didn't get here.

1178
01:06:17,860 --> 01:06:21,380
Speaker 3: Didn't get that at home. Uh, but Pokemon information such

1179
01:06:21,480 --> 01:06:24,940
Speaker 3: as Pikachu is not a Pokemon. He chases Pokemon.

1180
01:06:25,420 --> 01:06:27,390
Speaker 2: Oh, I don't know if that's canon or not.

1181
01:06:27,550 --> 01:06:29,910
Speaker 3: Yeah, lots of good stuff like that.

1182
01:06:30,130 --> 01:06:33,430
Speaker 2: That's great. All right. Well, yeah, write in. We'd love

1183
01:06:33,450 --> 01:06:35,410
Speaker 2: to hear from everyone. Just a reminder that Stuff to

1184
01:06:35,430 --> 01:06:37,820
Speaker 2: Blow Your Mind is primarily a science and culture podcast

1185
01:06:37,840 --> 01:06:40,580
Speaker 2: with core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays. Short form on

1186
01:06:40,600 --> 01:06:43,520
Speaker 2: Wednesdays and on Fridays, we set aside most serious concerns

1187
01:06:43,560 --> 01:06:45,380
Speaker 2: to just talk about a weird film and weird house cinema.

1188
01:06:45,760 --> 01:06:48,020
Speaker 2: You can listen to the show wherever you get your

1189
01:06:48,080 --> 01:06:51,490
Speaker 2: audio podcasts. If you want to watch the video version,

1190
01:06:51,690 --> 01:06:54,530
Speaker 2: head on over to Netflix. However you're consuming the show,

1191
01:06:54,590 --> 01:06:57,230
Speaker 2: we just ask that you rate, review, give us a

1192
01:06:57,250 --> 01:06:59,410
Speaker 2: couple of thumbs up on Netflix, ask to be reminded

1193
01:06:59,450 --> 01:07:03,110
Speaker 2: about new episodes. We value any time that you give

1194
01:07:03,150 --> 01:07:05,050
Speaker 2: to us, and we're honored that you spend any amount

1195
01:07:05,070 --> 01:07:09,020
Speaker 2: of time with our podcast. But these little tweaks can

1196
01:07:09,040 --> 01:07:10,740
Speaker 2: help us out in the long run, and we appreciate

1197
01:07:10,780 --> 01:07:11,260
Speaker 2: those as well.

1198
01:07:11,820 --> 01:07:16,840
Speaker 3: Totally. Huge thanks, as always, to our excellent audio producer, J.J. Posway.

1199
01:07:17,060 --> 01:07:18,620
Speaker 3: If you would like to get in touch with us

1200
01:07:18,680 --> 01:07:21,240
Speaker 3: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest

1201
01:07:21,300 --> 01:07:23,160
Speaker 3: a topic for the future, or just to say hello,

1202
01:07:23,220 --> 01:07:26,870
Speaker 3: you can email us at contact at stufftoblowyourmind.com.

1203
01:07:35,170 --> 01:07:37,610
Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is a production of iHeartRadio.

1204
01:07:37,970 --> 01:07:41,870
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1205
01:07:41,970 --> 01:07:43,670
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.