Speaker 1: Pushkin. Music has always been an escape for Jim James,
Speaker 1: from the time he started playing guitar as a shy
Speaker 1: teenager in Louisville, Kentucky through his decades long success as
Speaker 1: the frontman of My Mowing Jacket, his goal has always
Speaker 1: been the same, to lose himself in the music. Since
Speaker 1: starting My Mowning Jacket in nineteen ninety eight, he's released
Speaker 1: eight albums with the band, along with several critically acclaimed
Speaker 1: solo and side projects, and despite its prodigious output, Jim
Speaker 1: doesn't seem to be running out of material. In July,
Speaker 1: The Jacket released The Waterfall Too, a complete album of
Speaker 1: holdovers from their twenty fifteen album The Waterfall, and according
Speaker 1: to Jim, they've got another full album already recorded. Jim's
Speaker 1: also sitting on a solo project from nineteen ninety eight
Speaker 1: that he's recently started tinkering with again. On today's episode,
Speaker 1: Jim talks to Bruce Headlam about how, after decades of performing,
Speaker 1: he was only recently able to open his eyes on
Speaker 1: stage and make eye contact with the crowd, and he
Speaker 1: talks about how My Morning Jacket might not exist if
Speaker 1: it hadn't been for Kermit The Frog's Rainbow Connection. This
Speaker 1: is broken record liner notes for the digital age. I'm
Speaker 1: justin Richmonds. Just a quick note here. You can listen
Speaker 1: to all of the music mentioned in this episode on
Speaker 1: our playlist, which you can find a link to in
Speaker 1: the show notes for licensing reasons, each time a song
Speaker 1: is referenced in this episode, you'll hear this sound effect
Speaker 1: all right. Enjoy the episode. Here's Bruce Headlam's conversation with
Speaker 1: Jim James. Tell me about Waterfalls two. Tell me how
Speaker 1: it all came about. It's definitely not a leftovers record
Speaker 1: or a B sides record. It's like there was a
Speaker 1: time when we finished it all where we're like, oh,
Speaker 1: maybe we'll just release this giant quadruple record or whatever,
Speaker 1: you know, of all of the songs. But it just
Speaker 1: felt like that just would have been too much, and
Speaker 1: people probably would have missed a lot of the songs,
Speaker 1: just because it's way too much to sort through. Because
Speaker 1: even like the first Waterfall is still like double vinyl,
Speaker 1: it's still like a long record. I didn't really think
Speaker 1: about it until the Waterfall two. But I think we
Speaker 1: built the Waterfall one with a lot of touring in mind.
Speaker 1: You know, oftentimes like we'll think about like, oh, what
Speaker 1: songs are gonna be good in the set, or this
Speaker 1: kind of thing will work itself into the sequence of
Speaker 1: a record as the record sequences itself too, in that
Speaker 1: magic process. So it's interesting with the Waterfall too. You know,
Speaker 1: there was no touring because it came up the idea
Speaker 1: that came up to me during the first couple of
Speaker 1: weeks of Quarantine as a way to like reconnect with
Speaker 1: fans and reconnect with ourselves as a band, because I
Speaker 1: had forgotten about it, and I one of the songs
Speaker 1: came up randomly as I was walking and I was like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, we've still got this whole other record.
Speaker 1: You know, it's done. It's like, there's this would be
Speaker 1: hopefully a really great thing to release now while we're
Speaker 1: all trapped in this weird pandemic. So it's interesting because
Speaker 1: the record just like it just went shop and it
Speaker 1: all sequenced itself really quickly, and I took a couple
Speaker 1: walks with it to feel the sequence, and it was
Speaker 1: just so effortless. So when you say you walked with it,
Speaker 1: did you literally just put a sequence on your iPhone
Speaker 1: or your whatever and then just walk around to see
Speaker 1: did this feel like a record? That's how I walk,
Speaker 1: and I hike a lot, and uh, that's how I
Speaker 1: usually work on most music I'm working on, is whether
Speaker 1: I'm mixing something, or writing something, or sequencing something or
Speaker 1: approving a master or whatever, I'll go hike with it
Speaker 1: and see how it works as a hike. Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: just how I process it. For whatever reason. When I
Speaker 1: was listening to it and then I was going back
Speaker 1: and forth, sort of toggling between the two records. There's
Speaker 1: a lot more heartbreak in this record. It's much more ambivalent.
Speaker 1: It maybe is not the kind of arena rocker record.
Speaker 1: It's it's very hopeful at points. But the first record
Speaker 1: had more of a drive and I had, you know,
Speaker 1: started with believe and this one, you know, it starts
Speaker 1: with spinning my wheels. It's it's a very different feel.
Speaker 1: Is that a reflection of what you were going through
Speaker 1: back then or what you're going through now? Do you think? Well,
Speaker 1: it's funny. I think a lot of those songs didn't
Speaker 1: initially make the Waterfall one because of that reason. We
Speaker 1: were touring and we were like, oh, let's, you know,
Speaker 1: make it as upbeat as we can and stuff, and
Speaker 1: I had gone through a breakup than, you know, real difficult,
Speaker 1: painful breakup that a lot of those songs came out of.
Speaker 1: And it really is in a lot of ways of
Speaker 1: breakup record. But I think the reason it resonated with me,
Speaker 1: and maybe the reason it resonates with people now is
Speaker 1: because it feels like we're breaking up with life in
Speaker 1: a lot of ways, you know, in this pandemic, it's
Speaker 1: like we've we can't do so many of the things
Speaker 1: we used to love to do, and that's so painful.
Speaker 1: So it's like, I didn't really even think about that,
Speaker 1: But if it resonates with somebody, maybe it resonates on
Speaker 1: that level. Hopefully it's like a comfort to this sadness
Speaker 1: we're all feeling right now collectively in so many ways,
Speaker 1: you know, that kind of was broken open by the
Speaker 1: isolation of the pandemic. Why are the albums called Waterfalls? Well,
Speaker 1: I mean, I've just always loved nature, and I've always
Speaker 1: needed nature to balance the insanity of life on this
Speaker 1: planet because so many times I don't feel like I'm
Speaker 1: at home on this planet, and I don't understand people,
Speaker 1: and I don't understand why things are the way they
Speaker 1: are here, like why is there so much hatred and
Speaker 1: why is there so much violence and war? So I'll
Speaker 1: go into nature with the trees and the lake and
Speaker 1: the ocean and feel at peace, you know, with those
Speaker 1: beings and for me and nature, one of the coolest
Speaker 1: things is a waterfall. You know, when a water when
Speaker 1: you see a waterfall, whether it's a little one in
Speaker 1: the woods, or you know, giant snow quality falls or
Speaker 1: Niagara Falls or Multnoma Falls, or it's just always been
Speaker 1: something that like takes my breath away, you know, and
Speaker 1: I stand there and I can look at it foreffort,
Speaker 1: you know, and it's like it plays tricks on your
Speaker 1: mind and you can pretend like you're pausing it or
Speaker 1: like rewinding it or fast forwarding it. It's just this
Speaker 1: really amazing thing. So I just thought just to have
Speaker 1: that thing with the music felt so cool, you know.
Speaker 1: I ask because I grew up near Niagara Falls, and
Speaker 1: you know, the thing about waterfalls is there are a
Speaker 1: lot of people who when they see waterfalls, it scares
Speaker 1: them because they feel like they have to jump. You know.
Speaker 1: There's a whole community people around Niagara Falls who plan
Speaker 1: to go over the falls, even though they know it
Speaker 1: might kill them and you ask them why and they're
Speaker 1: just like, I just got to do it. Yeah. In
Speaker 1: Walt Whitman in Song of Myself, there's a very powerful
Speaker 1: scene where he walks out I think he calls it
Speaker 1: a headland, but it's like a promontory over a lake
Speaker 1: and he's feelings. People are laughing at him, and he's
Speaker 1: writing about being an artist, but it's all that thing
Speaker 1: like I'm out here and it's beautiful. Do I fall?
Speaker 1: Do I jump? Right? And I just thought of that
Speaker 1: so much when I was listening to this record. That's
Speaker 1: what made me think about it in the Waterfalls, because
Speaker 1: that whole thing of risking your life for the sake
Speaker 1: of a song is it's kind of like, am I
Speaker 1: going to jump? Yeah? And that's what a lot of
Speaker 1: the record feels like to me. No, I love that.
Speaker 1: I mean, I've never thought about that, but that resonates
Speaker 1: a lot, because, yeah, I feel that for sure with waterfalls.
Speaker 1: I mean, that's a great thing about a waterfall too,
Speaker 1: is you can view it from the bottom, you can
Speaker 1: view it from the top, you know, and when you're
Speaker 1: at the top, you are like, oh my god, you know,
Speaker 1: like this thing could carry me into the next dimension.
Speaker 1: You know. It's like, if I get on this thing
Speaker 1: and fried it off, I am probably gonna be gone
Speaker 1: from this dimension. And yeah, like Niagara, when you're at
Speaker 1: Niagara Falls, You're like, oh my god, Like, if I
Speaker 1: jump in this water and go over these balls, I'm gone.
Speaker 1: You know, you know, chances are likelihood that I am
Speaker 1: fucking gone. And that is like what else you know?
Speaker 1: Can you say that about that kind of powerful force
Speaker 1: that can rip your life away? You know? In nature?
Speaker 1: I mean so quickly. You know, of course you could
Speaker 1: drown in a lake or an ocean or whatever. But
Speaker 1: the waterfalls just like you know, it's like, yeah, it's
Speaker 1: vine and it's something kind of ecstatic and exciting about
Speaker 1: it too. Sorry, I hope I'm not ruining waterfalls for you.
Speaker 1: That's not what I meant to do, not at all.
Speaker 1: Tell me a bit about spinning my wheels, because it's
Speaker 1: it's got that. It's not the first line, but that
Speaker 1: incredible line about wondering about risking your life for the
Speaker 1: sake of a song, it's very unsettling. Tell me where
Speaker 1: that came from. Well, I just had been doing that
Speaker 1: for so many years. I had literally, like been to
Speaker 1: the hospital three times from injuries that I sustained on tour.
Speaker 1: And I really felt for so long touring was a
Speaker 1: love hate thing for me because I didn't listen to myself.
Speaker 1: I listened to managers, you know, and agents and pressure
Speaker 1: and you know, you gotta get out there and go
Speaker 1: on a sixth straight and blah blah blah. You know
Speaker 1: this this relentless push that so many people, I mean
Speaker 1: all of us know it in life, no matter what
Speaker 1: what job we're in. You know, everybody, at a certain
Speaker 1: point you have this crushing push of life, and if
Speaker 1: you don't listen to yourself and find some balance, you
Speaker 1: get hurt. You know, you get injured and literally and metaphysically.
Speaker 1: And I felt for so long that I was fighting
Speaker 1: that that I kept risking my life over and over
Speaker 1: again to do this this thing, this touring thing or whatever.
Speaker 1: So I think eventually that's kind of the jacket, kind
Speaker 1: of I had to put it on hold for a while.
Speaker 1: It takes so much energy. I don't know. If that's
Speaker 1: one thing people don't don't know or think about when
Speaker 1: they think about the bands they love or the artists
Speaker 1: they love or whatever. It's like, if you're fortunate enough
Speaker 1: to keep going for a long time, there's so much
Speaker 1: energy that you have to summon. You know. We've been
Speaker 1: touring now for over twenty years or whatever, so a
Speaker 1: lot of these songs I have to find the pain
Speaker 1: of the twenty two year old me or whatever, even
Speaker 1: though I'm a forty year old or whatever, you know.
Speaker 1: And it's like, it's this wild thing that takes up
Speaker 1: so much energy, and if you're not careful with that energy,
Speaker 1: it can kill you. It's like playing with electricity or something. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and you're famous for your live shows. They're electric. They're
Speaker 1: huge experiences for people. It's not like, yeah, I saw them,
Speaker 1: they played the songs I liked. It's like, oh my god,
Speaker 1: I saw my morning jacket. People go to feel something,
Speaker 1: to be transformed, that's what we hope. I mean, thanks,
Speaker 1: I don't you know. It's like, live music to all
Speaker 1: of us has always been such a healing thing, you know,
Speaker 1: so we want to be a part of that circle
Speaker 1: of healing. Yeah, when you see a live concert that
Speaker 1: moves you with people, you know again, it's that thing.
Speaker 1: It heals you so much. We need that so much
Speaker 1: right now, and that's we're missing it during the pandemic,
Speaker 1: you know, and it's this fucking like nightmare, you know.
Speaker 1: That's uh, yeah, it's it's such a powerful experience. So
Speaker 1: tell me a bit about growing up in in Louisville.
Speaker 1: You had a great quote once I read that everybody
Speaker 1: in the North thinks Louisville's in the south. Everybody in
Speaker 1: the South thinks Louisville is in the north. What kind
Speaker 1: of town was it when you grew up there? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean that's why I've always loved it. It's it's
Speaker 1: such a mysterious and strange place. I feel like there's
Speaker 1: so many ghosts here, and there's so many The nature
Speaker 1: here is amazing, Like the trees are amazing, and the
Speaker 1: spirits are amazing. There's a lot of creative energy here,
Speaker 1: but there's also a lot of darkness, you know, and
Speaker 1: there's a lot of the horrors of the past of
Speaker 1: the United States, you know, the horrors of slavery and
Speaker 1: the the horrors of you know, Louisville being such a
Speaker 1: strange place because, yeah, what it wasn't north, and it
Speaker 1: wasn't south, but it kind of was north and you know,
Speaker 1: on the underground railroad a lot of people would escape.
Speaker 1: And we went down some friends and I went down
Speaker 1: and stood on the banks of the Ohio River a
Speaker 1: couple of weeks ago and stood where fleeing slaves would
Speaker 1: stand before they tried to cross the Ohio River to
Speaker 1: get to this steeple on the other side in Indiana
Speaker 1: as this beacon that once they got to this steeple,
Speaker 1: they were probably going to be free. What was it
Speaker 1: like to stand there and look, I mean, I'm tearing
Speaker 1: it up thinking about it now, you know, it's like
Speaker 1: just standing there thinking about because that there's a part
Speaker 1: of town called Portland in Louisville. That was where Louisville
Speaker 1: came up, and it was the shipping port on the
Speaker 1: Ohio River. So there's a lot of you know, everything,
Speaker 1: a lot of slave trading, a lot of merchandise and
Speaker 1: everything in the town came from there, and a lot
Speaker 1: of that. All the buildings and stuff or have been
Speaker 1: gone or have changed, but there's still a lot of
Speaker 1: old houses there that they're like that house used to be,
Speaker 1: you know, where abolitionists would hide slaves right before they
Speaker 1: broke across the river to freedom, or that was a
Speaker 1: jail where they would capture slaves and you know, all
Speaker 1: this stuff, all this energy down there. You know, Louisville
Speaker 1: is still battling today with the death of Brianna Taylor
Speaker 1: and all of the systemic racism that you know, we're
Speaker 1: battling as a country, But in Louisville it's resonating at
Speaker 1: a really, really high frequency right now, which I think
Speaker 1: is is really hopeful in a lot of ways, because
Speaker 1: hopefully this energy can continue and push to more equality
Speaker 1: and more fairness and real justice. And but it's it's
Speaker 1: a Yeah, Louisville's a fascinating place. We should go back, though.
Speaker 1: So tell me about your family growing up. You know,
Speaker 1: for all intensive purposes, normal middle class family. We struggled
Speaker 1: for a while and you know, never had much money,
Speaker 1: and moved to Atlanta, Georgia for a couple of years
Speaker 1: and moved back to Kentucky. But always had a really
Speaker 1: great and supportive family, Like always had people I could
Speaker 1: depend on. Was there music at home growing up? You know,
Speaker 1: there wasn't a lot of music. Like my parents there
Speaker 1: was like music on in the car or whatever. They
Speaker 1: were casual music fans. And luckily when I was a kid,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of great just kind of oldies radio
Speaker 1: on with whatever Motown or Simon and Garfuncle or you know,
Speaker 1: whatever would be on the oldies radio. So I think
Speaker 1: a lot of that one into my brain. Was there
Speaker 1: a point, was there a record? Was there a song
Speaker 1: that when you heard it you said, oh, yeah, that's
Speaker 1: that's what I want to do. Yeah. I had several
Speaker 1: of those moments, you know. I mean the first one
Speaker 1: was the Muppet Show, seeing the Muppet Show band the
Speaker 1: Electric Mayhem. You're the first first musician I know whose
Speaker 1: favorite band growing up was with the Muppets. Man, Well,
Speaker 1: you saw them, and I remember, you know, even seeing
Speaker 1: Kermit sing the Rainbow Connection. You know, I just would
Speaker 1: see that and I'd be like, oh my God, Like
Speaker 1: what is that power he has? You know, what what
Speaker 1: is he doing? You know? And how do I do that?
Speaker 1: You know, like how do I sit on a log
Speaker 1: with a banjo and make that sound that affects people?
Speaker 1: Like this is affecting me, you know. And then as
Speaker 1: I grew older, I remember seeing Neil Young on Saturday
Speaker 1: Night Live to Harvest Moon. You know, that was a
Speaker 1: really turning point for me because we my mom and
Speaker 1: I were up late watching Saturday night live and he
Speaker 1: played and his tech was sweeping the broom, you know,
Speaker 1: and keeping the rhythm on the broom. And we both
Speaker 1: watched that and we're so moved by it. And the
Speaker 1: next day my mom bought me Harvest accidentally instead of
Speaker 1: Harvest Moon. You know, she was like, here's that record.
Speaker 1: We listen, here's what we saw Neil Young play last night.
Speaker 1: And I was like, oh cool. And I put it
Speaker 1: on and I was like, holy shit, you know, like
Speaker 1: this wasn't Harvest Moon. You know, that's a whole other thing,
Speaker 1: you know. So I was just like, I never forget
Speaker 1: it in the basement listening to that fucking record, you know,
Speaker 1: and just like that was definitely a current the frog moment,
Speaker 1: you know, of seeing Neil and at that time too,
Speaker 1: grunge was blowing up, so you know, seeing Kurt Comain,
Speaker 1: seeing Michael Stipe was huge for me. R EM was
Speaker 1: a huge thing of seeing like these weird dudes from
Speaker 1: the South, you know, that are like making this weird
Speaker 1: music that is having this beautiful effect on the world.
Speaker 1: You know, I'll never forget seeing r EM and being like, maybe, gosh,
Speaker 1: maybe I could do that. You know. It's like because
Speaker 1: I never felt like I could do hair metal, which
Speaker 1: I was also into at the time and was so popular,
Speaker 1: and I was like, man, I don't know if I
Speaker 1: can do the hair metal thing, you know, like I
Speaker 1: don't think I don't think I can accomplish that. But
Speaker 1: was it the hair or the metal? Because you got
Speaker 1: nice hair? Said, well, it was just so aggressive. There
Speaker 1: was this big, aggressive thing going on, you know, and
Speaker 1: it's like this big you know, as a kid, you
Speaker 1: watch that and you're like, shit, well, I gotta have
Speaker 1: a costume, and I gotta have, you know, leather outfit,
Speaker 1: and I gotta have these fucking walls and stacks, you know,
Speaker 1: and all this shit, all the things that went with it.
Speaker 1: You know that that you're like, shit, is that what
Speaker 1: you have to have if you're gonna be in a
Speaker 1: rock and roll man? You know, because I didn't have
Speaker 1: older I didn't have any older siblings to tell me
Speaker 1: about lou Reid or tell me about you know, Chuck
Speaker 1: Barrier or older rock and roll. So I kind of
Speaker 1: like was born into rock and roll thinking it was
Speaker 1: a heavy metal or whatever, you know, and then then
Speaker 1: you see Nirvana and you see r Em and you know,
Speaker 1: you see these bands that also talk about their influences.
Speaker 1: So you start going back and you're like, oh, fuck,
Speaker 1: I missed the whole. You know, first couple of chapters
Speaker 1: you were saving up for a banjo and a log.
Speaker 1: So have you actually ever played Rainbow Connection? Yeah? I
Speaker 1: played it a couple of times. Oh really, what's it
Speaker 1: like to play? It's amazing? I mean it's a master work.
Speaker 1: You know. It's like Paul Williams wrote that song and
Speaker 1: I mean Rainbow Connection again. It's like it's like lean
Speaker 1: on me or imagine or stand by me. You know,
Speaker 1: it is one of our greatest songs as a humanity.
Speaker 1: We'll be right back with more from Jim James after
Speaker 1: the break. Before we jump back into Bruce Headlam's conversation
Speaker 1: with Jim James, let's hear an acoustic performance of Spinning
Speaker 1: My Wheels from My Mowning Jacket's new album, The Waterfall Too.
Speaker 1: Was a guitar your first instrument? Yeah? And when did
Speaker 1: when did that start? Like seventh grade? Do you remember
Speaker 1: what your guitar was back then? Yeah, I've I've got
Speaker 1: I'm trying to think of which one I've got because
Speaker 1: I got like my uh my great aunt aunt Betty
Speaker 1: was kind of like my grandmother in a lot of ways,
Speaker 1: and she was a real big yard sale nut, you know,
Speaker 1: so she knew I was getting into guitar and she
Speaker 1: got me this real cool, you know, no name brand,
Speaker 1: little fifties guitar or whatever for thirty bucks at a
Speaker 1: yard sale. So I had that. And then my parents
Speaker 1: got me an acoustic for Christmas that was really cool.
Speaker 1: And then my uncle loaned me some money that I
Speaker 1: had to work at his paper company to pay him
Speaker 1: back for this like other like cheap squire strat, and
Speaker 1: I still got all three of those guitars. They all
Speaker 1: kind of came around the same time. And then there
Speaker 1: was just like a scene in Louisville, right like a
Speaker 1: good a lot of musicians where there were a lot
Speaker 1: of clubs. Why were there so many bands there? That
Speaker 1: was a wild scene. So I kind of came in
Speaker 1: on the tail end of that scene. It was really
Speaker 1: difficult scene. It was really really pretentious, and there was
Speaker 1: a lot of like just like kind of snobbery, and
Speaker 1: it wasn't a very healthy place, but there was some
Speaker 1: really great music that came out of it. And you know,
Speaker 1: as a little kid, you know, let's say whatever, eighth grade,
Speaker 1: sophomore in high school. Whenever you're first going to shows,
Speaker 1: you know, you want to be welcomed into these places,
Speaker 1: you know, but instead you go and it's like everybody's
Speaker 1: too cool for school, and it's kind of you know,
Speaker 1: it's kind of this metaphysical thing where you feel kind
Speaker 1: of like, shit, you know, I'm not cool enough to
Speaker 1: be here or whatever. But around that there grew another
Speaker 1: community of people who felt like that, who also created
Speaker 1: this beautiful scene of a more welcoming thing. So there's there,
Speaker 1: always has been, and there always will be a really vibrant,
Speaker 1: beautiful musical community here. That's uh, you know, so many
Speaker 1: different styles of music and just things. But yeah, that
Speaker 1: scene in the in the early nineties Louisville scene was
Speaker 1: incredibly popular and incredibly resonated, really big, but it was
Speaker 1: a really tough place to be. It's funny how local
Speaker 1: scenes they're either like the Seattle scene was in the
Speaker 1: early nineties, which there's actually those bands got along and
Speaker 1: they liked each other and they played with each other.
Speaker 1: Or they're like the sort of New York folks scene.
Speaker 1: They're not cooperative, they're competitive, and it gets a very
Speaker 1: cutthroat and as you said, people looking down another. You're
Speaker 1: playing the wrong song, you're playing the wrong instrument, you know,
Speaker 1: you're doing the wrong thing. But you found a group
Speaker 1: of people who are not like that. Yeah. Yeah, a
Speaker 1: group of people who could could just watch each other struggle,
Speaker 1: you know, and enjoy it and laugh about it, you know,
Speaker 1: like just just to have fun, you know, to be
Speaker 1: all be a part because we're all struggling, you know that.
Speaker 1: And that's one reason I think a lot of us
Speaker 1: love music so much, because it helps you get through
Speaker 1: the struggle. You've got a there's a strong spiritual element
Speaker 1: to your songs, and certainly the way you talk about it,
Speaker 1: there's a strong spiritual element, and you really, you really
Speaker 1: feel about music that it's a kind of restorative thing
Speaker 1: in people's lives. Did you go to church when you
Speaker 1: were a kid. Where did that sense come from, that
Speaker 1: spiritual sense? Well, it was my church. I am a
Speaker 1: recovering Catholic. I was raised Catholic and I'm still recovering
Speaker 1: from that. I've never been able to really get down
Speaker 1: with any kind of organized religion, like I don't. I don't.
Speaker 1: I also don't look down on it. Whatever people want
Speaker 1: to do is that was fine with me, but it
Speaker 1: never worked for me. So I always found religion in
Speaker 1: music and in nature. I feel like those were the
Speaker 1: only places I ever felt like my life mattered or
Speaker 1: that it made sense at all. That was the only
Speaker 1: way I could find peace, you know. And then once
Speaker 1: you start growing up and learning about people like George
Speaker 1: Harrison or Alice Coltrane or you know, people that really
Speaker 1: started to explain to you the spiritual side of music,
Speaker 1: you know, and that music is indeed healing, and indeed
Speaker 1: there are spiritual and scientific principles behind notes and frequencies
Speaker 1: and chords, and you know these things that in the
Speaker 1: music of the earth, you know, the music of nature,
Speaker 1: the music of the birds, the music of the waterfalls.
Speaker 1: You know, all these things that a lot of times
Speaker 1: we don't even realize our music as well. Do you
Speaker 1: take that with you into the concert hall, because your
Speaker 1: concerts are you know, people describe your concerts as religious experiences,
Speaker 1: not that they're converted to anything, but they're they're bigger
Speaker 1: than themselves. They feel connected in a way. Is that
Speaker 1: something you aim for or is it about your relationship
Speaker 1: with the audience. Where does that come from? Definitely. I mean,
Speaker 1: you aim for it, you don't always get there, you know,
Speaker 1: but the goal is to get lost, right, The goal
Speaker 1: is to be gone, you know, I think for all
Speaker 1: of us. And I I played a rally the other
Speaker 1: day for Amy McGrath here in Kentucky, and I hadn't
Speaker 1: played a show in for I can't remember the last
Speaker 1: time I play a show and I only played two songs.
Speaker 1: It was just a kind of rally thing, and I
Speaker 1: realized again that thing. I was like, there are these
Speaker 1: moments when the gateway is open, like the portal is open,
Speaker 1: and I'm gone, and then there's moments when I'm back
Speaker 1: and I'm like, oh shit, it's my guitar and tune
Speaker 1: or it's kind of cold out here, you know, and
Speaker 1: you're back on the earth thinking about all the shit
Speaker 1: that you think about. But when you're gone, you're gone,
Speaker 1: and you're in touch with everything. You know, You're in
Speaker 1: touch all of life forces in touch. I feel like
Speaker 1: when when we're in that state and you know, you
Speaker 1: can get there through meditation, or you can get there
Speaker 1: through love or sex, or you can get there through music,
Speaker 1: or you can get there through nature. So yeah, I
Speaker 1: hope when people come see our concerts. That can happen
Speaker 1: for them too, you know, they can I can get
Speaker 1: there so that they're not on the earth anymore, and
Speaker 1: we're all united on this other plane that we don't
Speaker 1: have words for. And you kind of come and go,
Speaker 1: you know, you step behind the veil and you're gone
Speaker 1: on and you wake up and you're like, oh shit,
Speaker 1: I gotta go pee, or I gotta go get a
Speaker 1: beer from the bar, or somebody just knocked into me,
Speaker 1: or whatever brings you back to earth. It sounds like
Speaker 1: you remember that experience of going into clubs when you
Speaker 1: were a kid and not feeling welcome. Oh yeah, there
Speaker 1: are things you do to make your audience feel welcome
Speaker 1: or tricks you do. I mean, we always want everybody
Speaker 1: to feel welcome, because that's one thing as a kid,
Speaker 1: and you know, like going to this scene, this this
Speaker 1: snobbish scene in Louisville, like I never felt welcome going
Speaker 1: to a Catholic grade school in high school, I never
Speaker 1: felt welcome. You know. I always felt like the outcast,
Speaker 1: kind of freak or whatever. And it's like, you know,
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, that's kind of all
Speaker 1: of our job to realize we're all in the same boat.
Speaker 1: You know, we're all some blend of unique freakishness in
Speaker 1: a beautiful way, no matter what you are, no matter
Speaker 1: how normal you think you are or how weird you
Speaker 1: think you are. So it's like music is one of
Speaker 1: the best ways to unify on that, you know. So
Speaker 1: I think we try to do everything we can to
Speaker 1: let everybody know that they're welcome and that this is
Speaker 1: all about equality and inclusion and safety and love and peace.
Speaker 1: And you know, how can we be as much of
Speaker 1: a force of love as possible. I'm wondering, when you're playing,
Speaker 1: do you do you ever look out and see somebody
Speaker 1: who reminds you of you back when you weren't feeling
Speaker 1: so welcome. That's a great question, you know what. It's wild.
Speaker 1: For the longest time, I couldn't look at people like
Speaker 1: I couldn't handle it. I mean for years, when we
Speaker 1: first started playing, I had my hair in my face
Speaker 1: and I had and for years I had sunglasses on.
Speaker 1: For a lot of times, I can't. It's so intense
Speaker 1: that I can't handle it. For years I couldn't, And
Speaker 1: then two or three years ago something changed and I
Speaker 1: could handle it. And now I like it now, I
Speaker 1: like looking out and finding people and looking into people's
Speaker 1: eyes and trying to see people, you know, And I've
Speaker 1: never thought about it that way, but I definitely you
Speaker 1: see people throughout the thing. You know, you see somebody
Speaker 1: and you're like, oh man, they look lost, or you
Speaker 1: see somebody crying, or you see somebody fucking throwing their
Speaker 1: beer in the air and screaming, you know, enjoy. And
Speaker 1: it's so it's like, that's a wild thing to be
Speaker 1: on stage and see that many different emotions, you know, like,
Speaker 1: was it just was it just too intense for you before?
Speaker 1: You couldn't it was too intense and I was too shy,
Speaker 1: and I was too nervous, and I was too because
Speaker 1: a lot of times too you'll look at people and
Speaker 1: they've got their arms crossed and they look like they
Speaker 1: hate it, you know. And until I realized, I was like,
Speaker 1: I probably look like that a lot of my favorite shows.
Speaker 1: You know, if I'm like kind of bummed or whatever,
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna be dancing and throwing a beer around,
Speaker 1: even though I'm like loving the show, you might look
Speaker 1: at me and I'm like, you know, and when you
Speaker 1: see people as a performer, I look in the crowd,
Speaker 1: and I used to see somebody like that, but I'll
Speaker 1: be like, oh shit, we're doing terrible this is a
Speaker 1: terrible show. I'm doing terrible job, you know. And it's
Speaker 1: like I would get focused on that one person that
Speaker 1: looked bummed and missed all the other people that looked joyful.
Speaker 1: You know. I just couldn't handle that for a year,
Speaker 1: for the majority of our career. Wow, is it nicer
Speaker 1: to play now? Oh yeah, Oh my god, it's incredible.
Speaker 1: I mean it's only the last two or three years
Speaker 1: or whatever that I've flipped the page and gotten into
Speaker 1: enjoying it. And now it'spec, you know. And it's so
Speaker 1: funny because the Jacket was on break for a long
Speaker 1: time and we got together and did these four shows,
Speaker 1: two at Red Rocks and to New York, and those
Speaker 1: shows were probably my favorite shows of my life. You know.
Speaker 1: It's like they were so beautiful and so all career spanning,
Speaker 1: and I felt so present and so connected, and it's
Speaker 1: like I could look into people's eyes and I didn't
Speaker 1: feel the need for any costumes or any tricks or
Speaker 1: you know, it's just like, let's go live or die,
Speaker 1: but with the music I'm gonna walk out here in
Speaker 1: my fucking T shirt with my guitar and I'm gonna
Speaker 1: look you in the eye. I'm gonna try. I'm gonna
Speaker 1: try to look you in the eye, and I'm gonna
Speaker 1: fucking live or die. And that's it, you know, that's
Speaker 1: the end of the thing. And it was so beautiful,
Speaker 1: and then the fucking pandemic hits. You know, it's like
Speaker 1: and that's like stop. You know, right when we were like,
Speaker 1: oh right, this is awesome, I'm like, I'm ready to
Speaker 1: do this. So now it's like, you know, we're all
Speaker 1: on pause or whatever. So whenever it comes back, it's like,
Speaker 1: I get teared up thinking about it. How powerful it's
Speaker 1: gonna be for all of us to go to concerts again.
Speaker 1: You know, when when we can all get together again,
Speaker 1: it is gonna be like fucking crazy. We'll be right
Speaker 1: back with more from Jim James after the break. We're
Speaker 1: back with Jim James and Bruce Hadlow. You've done a
Speaker 1: lot of covers. You did an album of Harrison covers.
Speaker 1: He did the New Basement Tapes, which were you and
Speaker 1: a lot of other great musicians, Elvis Costello and Mumfords
Speaker 1: and many people writing songs to Bob Dylan lyrics and
Speaker 1: you did the same thing with Woody Guthrie. What was
Speaker 1: it like to write to somebody else's lyrics? So cool?
Speaker 1: I mean, couldn't have better lyrical uh, you know than
Speaker 1: Dylan and Guthrie. You know, it's like so because we
Speaker 1: did the Woody Guthrie one first, and being at the
Speaker 1: Guthrie archives, like seeing all his massive output of lyrics
Speaker 1: like everywhere on grocery receipts and bags, and you know,
Speaker 1: there's piles, mountains and mountains and mountains of lyrics that
Speaker 1: this guy wrote, you know, and it's like, you know,
Speaker 1: and obviously he was no longer with us, so there
Speaker 1: was a lot of I would try and find him
Speaker 1: out there, you know, as I was writing these music
Speaker 1: and try and get his blessing and bring him in
Speaker 1: and hope that he was good with what was going on.
Speaker 1: And with the Dylan thing was so crazy because they
Speaker 1: like brought all these lost lyrics that he had written
Speaker 1: back in the Woodstock basement tape days or whatever, and
Speaker 1: we're sitting here looking at like the actual pieces of paper,
Speaker 1: the literal pieces of paper that he wrote all this
Speaker 1: shit on and you're like, motherfucker's still alive. You know.
Speaker 1: It's like, I hope he likes this stuff. You know.
Speaker 1: It's like so I'd like tried to find him, you know,
Speaker 1: and and and look to him for guidance, you know,
Speaker 1: in the ether or whatever, even though he's still alive.
Speaker 1: And the first day we were there, somebody's like Jones
Speaker 1: across the hall like some other records, and we were
Speaker 1: all like, oh shit, we were all like super terrified,
Speaker 1: were like, I hope he was a stop pot. You know.
Speaker 1: It was like it was so funny. Did you end
Speaker 1: up meeting them then or since then? No. We toured
Speaker 1: with the Dylan years ago, and uh I got to
Speaker 1: sing on stage with him a couple of times, which was,
Speaker 1: you know, beyond an honor to say the least. He
Speaker 1: brought Jeff Tweedy and myself out. We were on tour
Speaker 1: with Wilco and Dylan, and we we stag with him
Speaker 1: six or seven times throughout the tour. But never did
Speaker 1: you see him off stage. You know, he was not.
Speaker 1: It's like his bus rolls up five minutes before he plays.
Speaker 1: He walks off this bus on the stage, plays the
Speaker 1: songs he gets back on the bus and rolls away.
Speaker 1: You know, that's he's not there at all. He's gone,
Speaker 1: you know, so just see him like that's that's song.
Speaker 1: I'm not there right right. It was so crazy. So
Speaker 1: you're like the only time I've ever seen him was
Speaker 1: up there on that stage. Wow. It was so wow. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you just you couldn't walk up with a couple of
Speaker 1: beers and say hey, hey, why didn't you join us?
Speaker 1: It was well, that's how they pitched the tour to
Speaker 1: us like that, and that's why we were so excited
Speaker 1: about the tour. They were like, Dylan wants to collaborate
Speaker 1: with some younger vands and like, we'll have you guys, Wilco.
Speaker 1: And you know, we pictured ourselves like sitting around the
Speaker 1: camp fire and being like, let's do desire and it's
Speaker 1: entirety tonight, Bob bells that sound you're like, or like
Speaker 1: let's write a new song or whatever, you know, and
Speaker 1: we pictured all this collaboration and all these high jinks
Speaker 1: and stuff, and we get on tour and it's like
Speaker 1: he is not there for h you know, for like
Speaker 1: the first two or three weeks, we didn't even hear
Speaker 1: anything about any uh, collaborations or anything. And then one
Speaker 1: day his bass player, Tony walks up to us at
Speaker 1: dinner and hands us the CD of this Reverend Gary
Speaker 1: Davis song and he's like, I think Bob wants wants
Speaker 1: you guys to come sit in with him tonight, you know,
Speaker 1: and and uh, and we were like wow, you know,
Speaker 1: just like out of the blue. And then Uh, I
Speaker 1: had heard this before, but he notoriously likes to change
Speaker 1: the key, I guess, and I don't know thing about
Speaker 1: keys or anything, you know. So Jeff and I are
Speaker 1: like rushing to learn this song before we go play
Speaker 1: it with him, you know. And we're like backstage with
Speaker 1: our guitars and we like finally kind of learn it,
Speaker 1: and literally like ten minutes before we're getting ready to gone,
Speaker 1: the guitar tech comes back and he's like, oh, I
Speaker 1: think Bob wants to do it and B flat and
Speaker 1: stood a D diminished or whatever the original king was.
Speaker 1: So we're like, oh shit. We run back into catering.
Speaker 1: We're like using our capos around like trying to figure
Speaker 1: out it was. I mean, I don't think I've ever
Speaker 1: been more nervous in my life. It was so funny.
Speaker 1: Did it come off though I don't know, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I mean, I who knows. I hope. So he's so
Speaker 1: fucking cool though, because you look over at him and
Speaker 1: he I mean talk about gone. I mean that dude
Speaker 1: is like you look over at Bob and he is
Speaker 1: not there in the coolest way, you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: It's like he is. I don't know what where he
Speaker 1: is or what's going on, but it was inspiring to
Speaker 1: look over there and see that far away look in
Speaker 1: his eyes, like in a in an inspiring way, not
Speaker 1: a not a vacant way, you know. It was like
Speaker 1: like he you know, for so many of us, he
Speaker 1: is such a channel, you know, and it's like to
Speaker 1: see see up see him that close, like it was.
Speaker 1: It was really beautiful. I am interested that did you
Speaker 1: were there things about writing to his lyrics that when
Speaker 1: you were writing the songs and the songs you wrote
Speaker 1: are they're very different sounding, particularly on the on the
Speaker 1: on the New Basement tapes, like you really take his
Speaker 1: songs in kind of different directions. No, one, it doesn't
Speaker 1: sound like a Bob Dylan tribute album sounds like you
Speaker 1: really transform them, right, But when you were doing them,
Speaker 1: where you were going, I see what he did here,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna do this on my next album. Where there
Speaker 1: were there tricks you saw or things he did you thought, Okay,
Speaker 1: that's great, I'm gonna I'm gonna use that. I mean
Speaker 1: probably subliminally, you know. I mean, there's been so much
Speaker 1: of his music that's informed and inspired so much of
Speaker 1: my music. You know. It's like, so I don't think
Speaker 1: consciously I wrote there's still four or five songs that
Speaker 1: I wrote and re recorded that didn't get released or whatever.
Speaker 1: So I wrote eight or nine songs. And after I'm
Speaker 1: trying to think of what we did after that. I
Speaker 1: think we did the Waterfall after that. I think maybe
Speaker 1: one thing that I did learn was just to try
Speaker 1: and be less precious with things, because that was one
Speaker 1: thing that is well known about the Basement Tapes is
Speaker 1: there's so much information, you know, beyond what was released
Speaker 1: as the original Basement tapes. You know, now there's been
Speaker 1: box sets released and all the stuff of all the
Speaker 1: Basement tapes. And then to learn there were this project
Speaker 1: we did even more lyrics you know, that never got music.
Speaker 1: And the beautiful thing about it was is you could
Speaker 1: feel he wasn't being precious about it because some of
Speaker 1: these lyrics are hilarious, you know, some of them are goofy.
Speaker 1: Some of them are heartbreakingly crushingly sad. You know, some
Speaker 1: are the most beautiful poetry you've ever read. And as
Speaker 1: I went into the future from that, I was like,
Speaker 1: let's just let it be. You know, this stuff comes
Speaker 1: from wherever it comes from, and I'm just gonna let
Speaker 1: something be goofy, or I'm gonna let it be half finished,
Speaker 1: or I'm gonna let it be complete and beautiful and
Speaker 1: heartbreaking or monumental, you know, whatever the thing is trying
Speaker 1: to be, instead of trying to change it too much,
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna let it be what the universe wants
Speaker 1: it to be. What's writing like for you? Now? Are
Speaker 1: you writing currently? I'm always kind of writing, but I've
Speaker 1: been so bummed during this whole pandemic that it's like
Speaker 1: I feel like, and I know a lot of people
Speaker 1: can probably relate to this, I feel like most days
Speaker 1: you're just trying to keep your head above water, you know,
Speaker 1: of just like the horror of the current administration and
Speaker 1: the horror of the political landscape, and you know, hoping
Speaker 1: that there's a vaccine, you know, hoping all these things.
Speaker 1: I feel like this is such a time where we're
Speaker 1: all like just trying to like get through each day.
Speaker 1: You know, we're doing fine. Has become the new great.
Speaker 1: You know, if you're doing you're doing fine, that's all
Speaker 1: you're you're having to all of a day. So a
Speaker 1: lot of days I don't have the metaphysical energy to
Speaker 1: work on things, but I'm still collecting. Ideas are coming,
Speaker 1: and I collect them on my voice memil so I
Speaker 1: don't forget them so I can work on them. And
Speaker 1: I've also been going through I've got a lot of
Speaker 1: older albums that I've made, and I've been working on
Speaker 1: a lot of older stuff, like trying to finish older stuff.
Speaker 1: And that's been really healing for me because that's been
Speaker 1: a different part of my brain. That's like a I
Speaker 1: can still be productive and creative, but I'm not using
Speaker 1: this whatever part of your brain you use when you're
Speaker 1: working on brand new things. If that makes sense, Can
Speaker 1: you work on old stuff and not be too hypercritical,
Speaker 1: not look and say, ah, what was I thinking? And
Speaker 1: I shouldn't have done that? And you know what interested
Speaker 1: me about waterfalls is is that you just took those
Speaker 1: songs from five years ago, and you didn't say, you know,
Speaker 1: we got to fix this. That was why was I
Speaker 1: doing Anybody else would feel self conscious, but you're like, no,
Speaker 1: it's what they are. That's the thing. It's all the
Speaker 1: time machine, you know. It's all for me now to
Speaker 1: go fix that thing. It's kind of like breaking the
Speaker 1: space time continuum or whatever. And I'm not even saying
Speaker 1: you can't or you shouldn't do that, because there are
Speaker 1: no rules to anything, so people should do whatever they
Speaker 1: want musically. But for me, that's one of the coolest
Speaker 1: things about music or a career trajectory is you get
Speaker 1: these little time machine snapshots of a person over all
Speaker 1: these years. So the person I was when I made
Speaker 1: the waterfall a completely different person, you know. And I
Speaker 1: was a heartbroken person and all this energy that's so different.
Speaker 1: And I'm literally you know, they say your cells regenerate
Speaker 1: every seven years or whatever, so you're literally a completely
Speaker 1: different person physically too. But it's interesting because I have
Speaker 1: this record I made years ago, like in nineteen ninety
Speaker 1: eight or something that I made with one of my
Speaker 1: buddies who's now passed away, and actually Patrick from my
Speaker 1: Morning Jacket played drums on it, and it's been sitting
Speaker 1: there forever, and for years I've just been like, there's
Speaker 1: so much I like about it, but you know, it's real,
Speaker 1: not recorded that well, and there's a lot of mistakes
Speaker 1: and YadA YadA, YadA, and I'm like, oh jeez, Louise.
Speaker 1: But just recently I was like, I'm just just gonna
Speaker 1: finish this fucking thing and just let it be as
Speaker 1: it was. You know, it's like here it is. If
Speaker 1: you like it, great, if you don't great, you know,
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter. It's just like it's fun. It's fun
Speaker 1: for me to like feel this cool old time machine
Speaker 1: because back then I was obsessed with it. I love
Speaker 1: it was like, I fucking it was all I could
Speaker 1: think about. You. Also, you've done a couple of interesting things,
Speaker 1: because you know, I tend to think of you as
Speaker 1: like a you're a rock guy, so you're thinking of
Speaker 1: guitar licks and solos and lyrics. But you did this
Speaker 1: this great cover of the Brian Wilson song I just
Speaker 1: Wasn't made for these times, and you you sampled an
Speaker 1: old Isaac Hayes song for it that's kind of like
Speaker 1: almost a hip hop mentality. It's like a collage. You're
Speaker 1: putting things together there. Do you do a lot of
Speaker 1: that kind of experimentation too? Oh yeah, I mean I've
Speaker 1: always loved sampling and uh, I mean, if you think
Speaker 1: about it, everything sampling. You know, if you play a
Speaker 1: C and a G chord, how many fucking people have
Speaker 1: played C and G chords before you or whatever? You know,
Speaker 1: it's it's all, yeah, you don't know if you talk
Speaker 1: to their lawyers though, that's the well, yeah that is true.
Speaker 1: But but it's interesting though, when you think about the
Speaker 1: way that like literal sampling started just as a necessity
Speaker 1: or whatever. You know, it's like people started looping these
Speaker 1: passages so they could speak their mind and speak their
Speaker 1: lyrics over this passage because they didn't have a guitar,
Speaker 1: or they didn't you know whatever, they didn't have a
Speaker 1: drum kit, so they had a recorded drum kit that
Speaker 1: they could loot, you know, from an old James Brown
Speaker 1: record or whatever. And it's like the I just wasn't
Speaker 1: made for these times. Thing was so cool because I
Speaker 1: had written liner notes for a reissue of Hot Buttered Soul,
Speaker 1: and when I did that, they sent me stems from
Speaker 1: a lot of my favorite stacked songs, like they sent
Speaker 1: me the swims from a Hot Buttered Soul and from
Speaker 1: what you see is what you get, and like several
Speaker 1: snack songs. So when whenever I had heard, I was
Speaker 1: obsessed with Hot Buttered Soul for years. Like to me,
Speaker 1: Hot Buttered Soul is like Dark Side of the Moon
Speaker 1: in its scope and psychedelic landscape yet orchestral as It's
Speaker 1: just a phenomenal record. And whenever I would hear by
Speaker 1: the time I get to Phoenix, I would in my mind,
Speaker 1: I'd always start singing I just wasn't made for these
Speaker 1: times for some reason. I don't know why. I just
Speaker 1: that would always happen for me, because there's a large
Speaker 1: lead up. By the time I get to Phoenix is
Speaker 1: like nineteen minutes long, and the first eight minutes is
Speaker 1: just Isaac Hay's talking over this single organ note in
Speaker 1: this tinging high hat or whatever. And in my mind,
Speaker 1: whenever we would listen to that record, I would kat
Speaker 1: looking for you know, I would sing the Beach Boys song,
Speaker 1: and when I got the stems, I was like, oh fuck,
Speaker 1: I can like make this into the Beach Boys song.
Speaker 1: It was so cool. Are you gonna be one of
Speaker 1: those stem collectors now, like quest love, because because that's
Speaker 1: a deep habit. Oh my god. Yeah, all the stems
Speaker 1: that you find whenever. I mean I'm not like obsessed
Speaker 1: like looking for it, but whenever somebody sends me something,
Speaker 1: or you get to hear the stems of your favorite records,
Speaker 1: you know, like like what's going on? Like the stems
Speaker 1: to that. I mean when you get to hear Marvin
Speaker 1: Gays isolated vocal and you're there in the vocal booth
Speaker 1: with him hearing his like feet scratch around or hearing
Speaker 1: him adjust to headphones or whatever. You know, all this
Speaker 1: shit that's in your song that you don't hear, it's
Speaker 1: all subliminal because it's all mixed in there. But when
Speaker 1: you get to hear that ship or hear like James
Speaker 1: Jamerson's Baseline isolated or the strings like it is, mind blow.
Speaker 1: Does the world miss the sort of big albums like
Speaker 1: you mentioned, Hotbuttered Soul, What's going On, Dark Side of
Speaker 1: the Moon. Whether people like that music or not, they
Speaker 1: were just big. They took up a lot of room.
Speaker 1: You kind of couldn't get around them if you if
Speaker 1: you were alive and listening to the radio. You knew
Speaker 1: what those were. You know, Otis Redding's Blue, Sergeant Pepper,
Speaker 1: whatever album, you know, rumors, whatever you want to say,
Speaker 1: Is there something about those that were missing now in
Speaker 1: the world those kind of big statements. No, No, I
Speaker 1: think there's so many bands making so many great records,
Speaker 1: so much amazing music right now. I think the only
Speaker 1: thing that people don't realize is that back then they
Speaker 1: were like a couple of mirrors through which almost everybody
Speaker 1: saw music, you know, And with the Internet, it's like
Speaker 1: somebody took a hammer and shattered the mirrors into thousands
Speaker 1: of pieces. So now it's not as easy to have
Speaker 1: a cultural moment. You know, we don't get these cultural
Speaker 1: moments anymore because everybody's all fragmented, and it's like, you
Speaker 1: like indie dance pop, then you're fragmented into this mirror shard.
Speaker 1: Or you like hip hop, you're over here, you know,
Speaker 1: And it's like, and there are those of us who
Speaker 1: are trying to look at all of the shards because
Speaker 1: we love all types of music. But I feel like
Speaker 1: grunge was maybe the last era, or that era or
Speaker 1: even slightly after that was like there there were these
Speaker 1: moments of galvanized albums like a clemini by Outcast or
Speaker 1: you know, just like whatever, even Nirvana, Nevermind or whatever,
Speaker 1: Michael Jackson's Thriller or what. You know, these these moments
Speaker 1: of like albums that were like not only were they
Speaker 1: artistic in mind expanding, but they're also phenomenally commercially successful.
Speaker 1: You know that. That's where I think we don't see
Speaker 1: that anymore because everything's shattered and albums sales have been
Speaker 1: stolen from artists. So now it's like they're still artists
Speaker 1: making statements and making incredible music, but it's all it's
Speaker 1: like you have to find it in this sea of
Speaker 1: sea of illusions, you know, and it's like and you
Speaker 1: have to find it on your your phone or your
Speaker 1: fucking computer. And I know I'm sick of screens, you know,
Speaker 1: but we kind of have to use them, especially during
Speaker 1: the pandemic. I'm I'm grateful for them. Okay, what's next
Speaker 1: for you? I don't know. I mean, I hope, God,
Speaker 1: isn't it wild. I have no idea, you know, I
Speaker 1: just hope to be a lot. You know. It's like
Speaker 1: I hope that we're all free, you know. I hope
Speaker 1: that we're all working towards equality. I hope we all
Speaker 1: can somehow managed to all get healthcare. I hope we
Speaker 1: can all stay safe and healthy and not get this
Speaker 1: fucking virus. I hope that a cure or a treatment
Speaker 1: or whatever comes soon so we can all get back
Speaker 1: out there and enjoy life the way it's meant to
Speaker 1: be enjoyed, you know, and like and like people are saying,
Speaker 1: I really believe, let's not go back to normal, you know,
Speaker 1: let's go forward. Okay. When you think about the future
Speaker 1: and you think about getting up on stage when this
Speaker 1: is all over and there's a crowd in front of you,
Speaker 1: what's the song you're gonna play? Wow, that's a great,
Speaker 1: great funt. I don't know, because there's so many songs
Speaker 1: we haven't played, you know, there's so many songs we
Speaker 1: have played, and there's so many songs we haven't I mean,
Speaker 1: by the time that happens, I don't I don't know.
Speaker 1: I mean, we've already got a whole new Jacket record
Speaker 1: and we've got this new Waterfall two things. So we've
Speaker 1: already got like two whole records full of music that
Speaker 1: that we have never played. Gosh, I don't know. It's
Speaker 1: it's gonna be a very overwhelming moment. But I've also
Speaker 1: realized that I think we all tend to think in
Speaker 1: terms of these kind of yes or no moments, like
Speaker 1: and I've realized it's not going to be that way,
Speaker 1: because it's gonna be a slow trickle back in. As
Speaker 1: I realized the other day when I played this rally,
Speaker 1: it's like whenever my morning Jackie gets to play a
Speaker 1: concert again, it's not gonna be you know, nine thousand
Speaker 1: screaming people at Red Rocks. It's gonna be socially distanced.
Speaker 1: Everybody's kind of scared coming back in. You know, there's
Speaker 1: some masks, there's a you know, wherever it is, it's outdoor.
Speaker 1: It's gonna be a gradual thing where I feel like
Speaker 1: we're all gonna have to hold each other's hands back
Speaker 1: into this thing, you know, and yeah, move slowly back in,
Speaker 1: you know, because people are fucking broke too, and every
Speaker 1: band's going to be coming back on the road, you know.
Speaker 1: And so you've got every band coming back on the road,
Speaker 1: and you're broke. You know, It's it's Thursday night in
Speaker 1: Oklahoma City and fucking five of your favorite bands are
Speaker 1: in town. You know, what do we do. You know,
Speaker 1: we've got to be flexible with the idea of ticketing
Speaker 1: and prices, and you know, hopefully we can have some
Speaker 1: kind of sliding scale system in place so people with
Speaker 1: no money can come to the show. It's gonna be nuts.
Speaker 1: I guess you're like anybody else. You need a plan
Speaker 1: for reopening. Totally listen. It's been fantastic talking to you.
Speaker 1: It's been just wonderful. It's a great record. Thank you
Speaker 1: so much for it. Thank you, and thank you for
Speaker 1: talking and best of luck with everything you too. Thanks
Speaker 1: so much. Thanks to jim James for recording songs for
Speaker 1: us and catching us up on everything he's been up
Speaker 1: to while in quarantine. You can hear our favorite my
Speaker 1: Morning Jacket in Jimmy James Songs on a playlist at
Speaker 1: broken record podcast dot com. Be sure to subscribe to
Speaker 1: our YouTube channel at YouTube dot com slash broken Record Podcast.
Speaker 1: There you can find extended cuts of new and old episodes.
Speaker 1: Broken Record is produced with help from Leah Rose, Jason Gambrel,
Speaker 1: Martin Gonzalez, Eric Sandler, and his executive Produced by mil Lobell.
Speaker 1: Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries and if
Speaker 1: you like our show, please remember to share, rate, and
Speaker 1: review us on your podcast. Dad A theme musics by
Speaker 1: Kenny Beats. I'm justin Richmond bass