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Speaker 1: Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan. You've worked your entire

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Speaker 1: life to make a home, to create a family, maybe

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Speaker 1: even put away enough money to have a lakehouse somewhere

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Speaker 1: where you can get away, get away from all of

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Speaker 1: the every day the grind. But suddenly your life ends

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Speaker 1: brutally at the end of a rifle, and then your

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Speaker 1: body is dismembered. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is

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Speaker 1: Body Backs. Joining me today is my good friend Jackie Howard,

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Speaker 1: executive producer of Crime Stories. Would Nancy Grace joining me

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Speaker 1: today is my good friend Jackie Howard, executive producer of

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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, Jackie, what can you tell

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Speaker 1: us about this case? Today? Twenty three year old Chander

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Speaker 1: Halderson is charged with first degree intentional homicide, mutilating and

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Speaker 1: hiding a corpse, and giving false information to authorities. Now.

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Speaker 1: The tension between Halderson and his parents began after it

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Speaker 1: was discovered that he had been lying about a variety

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Speaker 1: of things, including attending Madison Area Technical College. It was

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Speaker 1: Halderson who first reported that his parents were missing. He

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Speaker 1: told police that they had intended to spend the weekend

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Speaker 1: at their Lakeside cottage, but according to Chandler Halderson, they

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Speaker 1: did not return as expected. That missing person report was

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Speaker 1: made at approximately eleven thirty in the morning. He also

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Speaker 1: told them that maybe they decided to go to a casino.

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Speaker 1: He said their phones were off, or they had no reception,

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Speaker 1: or maybe they were on a boat having some fun.

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Speaker 1: What we find out is Blart and Krista Holderson are

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Speaker 1: missing because their son has murdered them and dismembered the bodies. Joe,

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Speaker 1: there were so much deception in this case, and that

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Speaker 1: really caused a problem with the investigation. When you have

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Speaker 1: so many lines that are being told, what do you do?

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Speaker 1: How do you start an investigation like this? It's very difficult, Jackie.

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Speaker 1: When you begin to think about it. It's one of

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Speaker 1: these things where you, as as an investigator, you begin

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Speaker 1: to look at it and you see it's almost like

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Speaker 1: fishing line that gets tied in this massive night. Some

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Speaker 1: people call it a bird's nest, and it's your job

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Speaker 1: to go in there and begin to kind of take

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Speaker 1: this thing apart very carefully. You don't want to tear

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Speaker 1: it tear, you don't want to pull it apart to

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Speaker 1: the point where you break it into pieces. You want

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Speaker 1: to try to unravel it so that you can understand

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Speaker 1: the time line, because that's what this is all about. Uh.

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Speaker 1: You know, with this young man, he was specifically lying

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Speaker 1: about timelines, and time is, as investigators, is the most

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Speaker 1: important thing that we possess. It is the greatest asset

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Speaker 1: that we have in any death investigation, in particular for

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Speaker 1: a variety of reasons. You know, if you look at

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Speaker 1: it from the forensic standpoint, you begin to think about

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Speaker 1: the main One of the main questions they ask a

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Speaker 1: death investigator is how long in fact has the individual

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Speaker 1: been deceased. Well, when you when you have witnesses, and

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Speaker 1: in this case, you have a son that's that possesses

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Speaker 1: what you hope is firsthand knowledge, if he is giving

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Speaker 1: you bad time information, then everything begins to get twisted.

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Speaker 1: But here's here's the reverse of that. When you begin

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Speaker 1: to when you finally get your hands on a body,

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Speaker 1: for instance, and you begin to examine the body, the

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Speaker 1: science says otherwise, okay, relative to the timeline, And that's

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Speaker 1: one of the things that we look for. And many

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Speaker 1: time criminals don't think about that. They don't think that

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Speaker 1: the science can actually trip them up at the most

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Speaker 1: simple level of science. You know, when we begin to

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Speaker 1: talk about postmortem changes in decomposition and all those sorts

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Speaker 1: of things, that's when the science doesn't marry up with

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Speaker 1: a narrative that a potential perpetrators trying to sell to us.

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Speaker 1: So we know that Chandler Holderson first reported his parents

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Speaker 1: missing at eleven thirty that morning, and he said they

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Speaker 1: could be with friends. He didn't know where they were,

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Speaker 1: so the police started there, where did they go next?

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Speaker 1: Since we don't have an idea who the couple is.

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Speaker 1: Do they go to the home, to the farm that

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Speaker 1: they were supposed to be at? Do they start looking

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Speaker 1: for bank records? I mean, how do you start to

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Speaker 1: form that timeline? Well, you know, you want to reach

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Speaker 1: out to any of the principles that are in the

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Speaker 1: life of the missing individual. And in this particular case

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Speaker 1: with Krista and specifically her co workers had become concerned

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Speaker 1: over the fact that that she hadn't turned up at

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Speaker 1: work and you know, she's apparently very diligent and what

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Speaker 1: she does she doesn't, you know, not come to work,

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Speaker 1: So that is a head scratcher for them. She hadn't

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Speaker 1: requested any kind of time, a time off at that

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Speaker 1: point in time, and here he is, he's telling this

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Speaker 1: story that well. First off, the story he said is

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Speaker 1: that they had left with a mystery couple, Okay, that

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Speaker 1: they were going to this a lake cottage that the

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Speaker 1: family had, and he didn't know who the couple was.

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Speaker 1: All right, how can you do that? You live with

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Speaker 1: your parents, you don't know who they're who they're going

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Speaker 1: off with. And when her co workers came to the house,

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Speaker 1: they looked in the garage and they saw that both

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Speaker 1: of the cars were there, so that was kind of

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Speaker 1: a head scratcher for them. And then Chandler puts forth

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Speaker 1: also that the family that his mom and dad had

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Speaker 1: to go to the lake because of an emergency. They

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Speaker 1: were going there to check on the cottage in order

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Speaker 1: because there had been a big storm that had come

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Speaker 1: through and they were going to go do repairs. And

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Speaker 1: then the story just becomes bigger and bigger and bigger

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Speaker 1: all along. And this is the trick, isn't it If

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Speaker 1: you're trying to stay convincing when it comes to investigators.

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Speaker 1: The more you add on to this, you can't remember

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Speaker 1: the lies that you've already told. And so this is

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Speaker 1: going to make alarm bells go off with the cops

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Speaker 1: at any moment in time, and you have to be

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Speaker 1: very very careful if you're the perpetrator, and it distracts you,

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Speaker 1: doesn't it It distracts you from what the reality is

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Speaker 1: versus what the story is that you're trying or the

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Speaker 1: story that you're trying to sell them is. So it's

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Speaker 1: kind of an odd situation to be in the first

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Speaker 1: Live When Chandler reported that his parents were missing again,

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Speaker 1: I just mentioned that, I know, but it's really important

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Speaker 1: because his report was made on Wednesday, July seventh. That

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Speaker 1: was when Chandler reported his parents missing again eleven thirty

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Speaker 1: that morning. But the last time that Bart and Krista

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Speaker 1: Holderson were seen was Life First twenty twenty one at

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Speaker 1: their home. You would think that there would be more

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Speaker 1: concerned with the fact that your parents did not come

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Speaker 1: back when they said they were going to before six days. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you would think so, Jackie, that you know that you

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Speaker 1: would have contact with him. Now, you know, Chandler's got

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Speaker 1: a brother, an older brother that doesn't live at home.

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Speaker 1: He's out on his own. This young man lives with

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Speaker 1: his parents. He has an intimate relationship with them from

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Speaker 1: a familial standpoint, you know, he kind of knows their

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Speaker 1: comings and goings. That's why it's so odd about this

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Speaker 1: mystery couple that they were supposed to have gone off

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Speaker 1: with that he can't come up with a name for.

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Speaker 1: How can you not keep track of your parents timeline?

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Speaker 1: And why is it that you would wait six days, Jackie,

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Speaker 1: six days to report your parents missing? I mean, this

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Speaker 1: is these are people that he sees day in and

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Speaker 1: day out. He knows what his father does for a living.

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Speaker 1: He's an accountant, he knows his mom's schedule. He's fully

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Speaker 1: aware of what's going on. And here's another wrinkle, and

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Speaker 1: this is kind of interesting that, you know, it's kind

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Speaker 1: of a head scratcher. Knowing what we know about Chandler's father.

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Speaker 1: Chandler had put forth a narrative as well that that

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Speaker 1: his mom and dad had gone to a casino. Well,

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Speaker 1: just let me tell you, Bart Holderson, guess what he

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Speaker 1: did for a living. He was an accountant. And according

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Speaker 1: to his friends, the people that were quote unquote in

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Speaker 1: his intimate circle, this guy knew every single scent that

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Speaker 1: he had. He didn't spend money at all. Now for

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Speaker 1: somebody that holds onto money like that that is fully

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Speaker 1: aware of what they have in the bank. Going off

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Speaker 1: to a casino rather spontaneously seems a bit frivolous, doesn't it.

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Speaker 1: It does. And what compounds this web of lies is

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Speaker 1: that Halderson told the police that he had messages between

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Speaker 1: himself and his parents while they were gone. Messages are

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Speaker 1: easily traced. You would think that that people nowadays would

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Speaker 1: have an understanding this is not like this took place,

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Speaker 1: you know, two decades ago, where you know, back then,

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Speaker 1: text messaging and everything was it was rudimentary compared to

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Speaker 1: what it is like now and tracking a phone devices

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Speaker 1: and all of those sorts of things. We are in

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Speaker 1: a connected universe now, and this case is a prime

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Speaker 1: example of the lack of an awareness that an individual

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Speaker 1: has relative to how they can be tracked, not just

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Speaker 1: with the messages that they're sending, but also the movement

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Speaker 1: of a phone, you know. And to keep this in mind,

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Speaker 1: both Christa and Bart's phones were nowhere to be found.

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Speaker 1: At least initially, they couldn't track them. They didn't know

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Speaker 1: where they were. As a matter of fact, one of

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Speaker 1: the messages or one of the teams that they had

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Speaker 1: came back from a county which they had not been

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Speaker 1: visiting that they did not regularly go to, and so

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Speaker 1: from Jump Street the police were suspicious at that moment time, Jackie,

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Speaker 1: I gotta tell you us, as a death investigator, one

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Speaker 1: of the most overwhelming task that we have is anytime

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Speaker 1: we have a case where a body or bodies have

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Speaker 1: been dismembered. And the reason it's so difficult is the

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Speaker 1: fact that there's always the potential that you're going to

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Speaker 1: have multiple scenes with a case like that. What can

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Speaker 1: you tell us about the evidence in this case, One

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Speaker 1: of the biggest clues that came forward Joe to help

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Speaker 1: the police solve this crime is that even though Chandler

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Speaker 1: Holderson told police that he did not have any idea

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Speaker 1: where his parents were, that he had not been to

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Speaker 1: the family cottage, we now know that he had been.

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Speaker 1: A witness came forward after the couple was reported missing

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Speaker 1: to tell police that Chandler was seen coming out of

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Speaker 1: the woods by the cottage house and that gave the

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Speaker 1: police a place to start searching. And is in that

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Speaker 1: search that they found the remains or partial remains, I

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Speaker 1: should say of Bart Holderson. You know, with Chandler he

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Speaker 1: claimed that he had no idea as to the location

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Speaker 1: of his parents. But let's keep in mind that several

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Speaker 1: witnesses had actually placed an individual that looked similar to

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Speaker 1: Chandler in these specific areas. I think one area was

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Speaker 1: near what's referred to as the Wisconsin River, where he

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Speaker 1: was kind of wandering back and forth between a roadway

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Speaker 1: and the river, presumably to look for a place to

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Speaker 1: deposit remains. There was also a vehicle that fit the

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Speaker 1: description of one of the family's vehicles there at the scene.

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Speaker 1: Now get this with the hatchback open, and he was

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Speaker 1: seen walking away from the vehicle with a backpack on

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Speaker 1: his shoulders. And so anytime you begin to see this

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Speaker 1: kind of activity and it sticks in the brain of

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Speaker 1: a witness, that could be very damning, but it can

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Speaker 1: also be a major help to the police because keep

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Speaker 1: in mind, at this point in time, when you walk

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Speaker 1: into an investigation like this, you don't really know which

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Speaker 1: way the wind is blowing, particularly if you have a

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Speaker 1: primary suspect witness like the Sun who is giving you

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Speaker 1: bad information all the way along. The key here is

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Speaker 1: discovering physical information, whether it would be say gunfire related evidence,

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Speaker 1: blood evidence, instrumentalities or specifically human remains. We know that

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Speaker 1: the first piece of evidence that the police came across

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Speaker 1: was a tarp covered in blood, and inside that tarp

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Speaker 1: was Bart Halderson's body. So with the discovery of that,

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Speaker 1: that gave the police empathis to get a search warrant

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Speaker 1: to search the entirety of the property and other related properties.

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Speaker 1: So let's start with the tarp, Joe, what all is

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Speaker 1: that going to tell us? We know, Jackie, a lot

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Speaker 1: of people don't understand you, in particularly if you listen

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Speaker 1: to any kind of trial, any kind of testimony from trial.

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Speaker 1: You cannot simply go up on a stand as a

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Speaker 1: forensic witness and say I saw blood at the scene.

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Speaker 1: You have to jump through several layers in order before

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Speaker 1: you can get to blood. So one of the things

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Speaker 1: they would have done with that tarp is they do

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Speaker 1: what is referred to as a presumptive test, and that's

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Speaker 1: a field test that you can do out of the scene.

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Speaker 1: You look at the tarp and you might see a

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Speaker 1: dried red area or brown. Sometimes it appears brown. Sometimes

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Speaker 1: I've even seen it look like milk chocolate. And you

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Speaker 1: swab that area and you do a test at that

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Speaker 1: point in time, you say, okay, yeah, this is blood.

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Speaker 1: The chemistry is telling me this is blood. But you

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Speaker 1: can't go any further than that without doing another test,

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Speaker 1: and that is a test where you test it to

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Speaker 1: see if it is actually human blood, because it could

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Speaker 1: be an animal. Maybe it was a deer, maybe it

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Speaker 1: was a dog. You have no idea. And so once

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Speaker 1: you find human blood, then you have to think, well,

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Speaker 1: we've got people that are missing. Is this blood tied

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Speaker 1: back to the individuals that are missing in some way?

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Speaker 1: And of course it turned out to be Bart. Now

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Speaker 1: you had mentioned that they found Bart's body, Well, they

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Speaker 1: didn't actually find the totality of his body. They found

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Speaker 1: his torso and his torso it was missing limbs, Jackie.

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Speaker 1: So you know, can you imagine your police officer and

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Speaker 1: you have no idea what to expect, and then suddenly

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Speaker 1: you recover the body that is missing limbs. It's missing

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Speaker 1: ahead and as it turns out, I had a couple

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Speaker 1: of gunshot wounds in it as well. That was the

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Speaker 1: first indication of the gruesomeness of this case. At that

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Speaker 1: time that the father's body was found, Christa. Halderson's body

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Speaker 1: was still missing and we still do not believe that

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Speaker 1: full remains of Christ to have been found. The parents

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Speaker 1: were dismembered and brutally dismembered. Explained to me Joe what

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Speaker 1: he used, How is that going to be done? How

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Speaker 1: difficult is that going to be done? And what is

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Speaker 1: the evidence that is going to show up on the body?

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Speaker 1: To let us know which instruments were used. I want

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Speaker 1: our listeners who are just really bright. You wouldn't believe

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Speaker 1: some of the comments I get from folks about what

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Speaker 1: we talk about on body bags. I know that you

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Speaker 1: guys are going to understand this. When you think about

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Speaker 1: a body and you're taking a body apart, what are

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Speaker 1: you doing? Well, you're creating more evidence, aren't you. And

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Speaker 1: it's not just the marks that you leave on the body,

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Speaker 1: it's what you leave behind, all of the blood evidence

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Speaker 1: because it's hard to keep blood evidence, for instance, contained.

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Speaker 1: I mean, how many of us have spilled a glass

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Speaker 1: of milk before it goes everywhere? It doesn't, Well, blood's

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Speaker 1: no different. You're going to have a shower of blood

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Speaker 1: all over these locations where you're attempting to dismember a body,

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Speaker 1: and then you're going through bone. Jackie and we do

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Speaker 1: know that he used a saw hand saw, and not

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Speaker 1: only did he use a saw jackie, they found broken

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Speaker 1: saw blades, which means he went through several iterations of

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Speaker 1: the saw. You know, he's attempting to end because the bone,

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Speaker 1: human bone is so robust. If you don't have the

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Speaker 1: right tools in order to take it apart, it's going

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Speaker 1: to be problematic. So he actually broke a couple of

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Speaker 1: blades while sawing through the remains of his parents, and

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Speaker 1: so that's going to leave telltale marks on the bone.

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Speaker 1: And that's where we call in people like tool mark examiners,

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Speaker 1: people that are criminalis and they can actually microscopically match

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Speaker 1: up marks on the bone that are created by metal

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Speaker 1: objects like teeth from the saw and every saw. I

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Speaker 1: urge anybody at home, if you have a hack saw,

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Speaker 1: for instance, it's going to look different than say a

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Speaker 1: limb saw or the saws that we use, for instance

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Speaker 1: in the Morgue. I mean, how many of you watch

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Speaker 1: the show like Dexter or something like that and hear

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Speaker 1: the little buzzing sound, that high pitch buzzing sound for

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Speaker 1: a bone saw that's called a striker saw. We use

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Speaker 1: those in the Morgue and that's how we open, say,

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Speaker 1: for instance, the head. It's an agitating saw like a

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Speaker 1: cast saw, so those teeth mark are going to look different,

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Speaker 1: particularly microscopically. So anytime you apply an instrument to a body,

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Speaker 1: it leaves a specific marking on the body, much like

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Speaker 1: a bullet has specific markings, and it's something that can

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Speaker 1: be tied back to the instrumentalities that are being used.

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Speaker 1: We do know that they found scissors that had blood,

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Speaker 1: bone and DNA on them. We do know that they

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Speaker 1: also found the aforementioned saw with the handle and the

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Speaker 1: broken blade. Jackie. They found bolt cutters. Can you imagine

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Speaker 1: that bolt cutters were used as well, and an axe,

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Speaker 1: So you have all of this instrumentality that is literally

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Speaker 1: bathed in the parents' DNA and then to boot you know,

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Speaker 1: after the dismemberment takes place, he has to deposit these

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Speaker 1: remains somewhere. So at the end of the day, the

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Speaker 1: remains are found dispersed in a variety of different locations

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Speaker 1: I think in total almost six maybe with one of

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Speaker 1: them actually being the family home. But of course the

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Speaker 1: most gruesome thing is yet to follow. What actually happened

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Speaker 1: in the fireplace, Jackie, Well, that would be the discovery

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Speaker 1: of the father's skull inside the fireplace. It is believed

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Speaker 1: that Halderson burned his parents' heads in the fireplace. That

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Speaker 1: is apparently what had happened. The fire in this fireplace,

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Speaker 1: according to the arson investigators, got so very hot that

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Speaker 1: the bone begin to fragment. And when you look at

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Speaker 1: fragmented bone that comes about as a result of burning,

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Speaker 1: it's a very interesting presentation. When it kind of cracks apart,

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Speaker 1: it looks like a matrix. It's like a spider web

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Speaker 1: looking appearance, and you'll generally get this. It's very pronounced

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Speaker 1: in burned bone. If it doesn't pulpify, that means go

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Speaker 1: down to powder. It begins to kind of break apart,

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Speaker 1: and you can see this webbing that it appears like

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Speaker 1: within the interior of the bone itself. Now, I want

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Speaker 1: our listeners to really understand this and kind of grab

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Speaker 1: hold of this. A crematory if you've ever had loved

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Speaker 1: ones that you know their remains have been taken care

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Speaker 1: of by funeral home and they've been cremated. It takes

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Speaker 1: eighteen hundred degrees of sustained heat in order to render

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Speaker 1: down a human remain. And that's with a constant fuel source,

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Speaker 1: which of course is natural gas in most cases. You know,

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Speaker 1: this is going into the line that powers the powers

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Speaker 1: the crematory and that's sustained. And keep in mind, cremation

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Speaker 1: unit is actually all contained. It's not like an open

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Speaker 1: hearth fireplace. So this is what this young man would

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Speaker 1: have allegedly had to have done. Can you imagine, Jackie,

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Speaker 1: You're having to sit in front of the fireplace. You've

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Speaker 1: got your father's head, potentially your mother's head. You build

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Speaker 1: a fire in the hearth, a hearth that you've sat

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Speaker 1: around as families, maybe on Christmases, and you begin to

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Speaker 1: burn wood in order to fuel the fire, and you

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Speaker 1: have to constantly ten this fire as these heads are

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Speaker 1: literally cooking down before your eyes. And this is a

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Speaker 1: big takeaway from me. On the right side of the

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Speaker 1: fireplace there is a large black stained area, and this

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Speaker 1: is quite horrific. The fire investigator said that was an

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Speaker 1: indication of liquefied fat that had rolled off of the

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Speaker 1: bodies and had stained that metallic grate that holds the

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Speaker 1: wood in place, and presumably that's where the head or

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Speaker 1: heads would have been rendered down. Now, apparently there was

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Speaker 1: an attempt made to push. There's an ash trap in

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Speaker 1: the base of the fireplace, and the individual had opened

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Speaker 1: the ash trap and pushed these ashes down into the

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Speaker 1: ash trap and they had fallen behind the wall. It's

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Speaker 1: like this catch area that they had. And you would

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Speaker 1: not believe what the investigators had to go through in

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Speaker 1: order to retrieve these fractured remains. They actually had to

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Speaker 1: call a forensic anthropologist out to the scene to sift

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Speaker 1: through this ash that they're trying to collect. It is

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Speaker 1: a major major undertaking, Jackie. When you talk about rendering

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Speaker 1: down the bones, Joe and you talked about how robust

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Speaker 1: bone is. What kind of temperatures are you're talking about

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Speaker 1: that he used to break down the bone and it's

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Speaker 1: not like paper. It doesn't just oh there's heat and

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Speaker 1: it turns into ash. Talked about sustained temperatures. But did

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Speaker 1: he pound? Did he grind the skull down? I mean,

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Speaker 1: how do you actually get it down to powder? Will

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Speaker 1: find actually just do that? I think that it probably

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Speaker 1: could over a protracted period of time, But listen, if

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Speaker 1: you don't have a contained space where you can hit

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Speaker 1: that hit that sustained temperature of eighteen hundred degrees Remember

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Speaker 1: in a crematory. They're not tending remains, they're not having

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Speaker 1: to add fuel, and it's it's it's just as I've stated,

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Speaker 1: it is a sustained constant heat until this is till

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Speaker 1: these remains become what are referred to as cremains. In

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Speaker 1: this particular case, he would have had to or the

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Speaker 1: perpetrator would have had to have sat in front of

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Speaker 1: the hearth and maintain this heat. So if you cannot

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Speaker 1: attain that eighteen hundred degrees, Jackie, you're going to have

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Speaker 1: to work with a lower heat and a longer period

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Speaker 1: of time. I cannot even begin to fathom to fathom

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Speaker 1: how long he had to sit there and tend that

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Speaker 1: fire and continue to add fuel to that fire in

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Speaker 1: order to keep the sustainability going where you can begin

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Speaker 1: to render it down. And to your question, I think

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Speaker 1: that's a fantastic question. Would you have had to have

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Speaker 1: pulplified the remains? Yeah, I think that you would probably

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Speaker 1: have to. And the question is would you have the

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Speaker 1: will to do you have the ability to take an

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Speaker 1: instrumentality like a hammer or maybe even a sledge hammer,

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Speaker 1: or maybe even your foot and then take the mortal

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Speaker 1: remains of your parents out of there and stomp them

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Speaker 1: down or beat them down until they become pulplified, you know,

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Speaker 1: and it's totality. When you begin to look at this case,

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Speaker 1: you can see how much activity has involved in this.

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Speaker 1: You know, we're talking about the disappearance, we're talking about

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Speaker 1: the murder, the homicide, and then we're talking about dismemberment.

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Speaker 1: And you know, as I previously stated, Jackie, yeah, I

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Speaker 1: mean the idea here is that everywhere you go, even

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Speaker 1: going back to old my favorite, my favorite forensic scientist

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Speaker 1: of all time, Edmund Lecard who stated that every contact

402
00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:16,880
Speaker 1: leaves a trace. He said that over a hundred years ago.

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Speaker 1: This is a perfect example of that happening here. Every

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Speaker 1: contact left a trace. In this case, well, I think

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Speaker 1: the obvious answer here is that Halderson contacted his parents

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Speaker 1: in just about every location of that home. DNA and

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Speaker 1: blood found throughout the home. Police do believe that the

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Speaker 1: parents were shot in the home. With the DNA that

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Speaker 1: was found, it was even found on his shoes and

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Speaker 1: in the walls. How did that part of the investigation progress?

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Speaker 1: You know, once the police had a search warrant into

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Speaker 1: the Halderson home, they really took their time. Once they

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Speaker 1: we're in there. And keep in mind, when you have

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Speaker 1: a search warrant to go through a home, it gives

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00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:01,160
Speaker 1: you license to be in there for a protracted period

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Speaker 1: of time. You can take your time. It's a controlled environment,

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00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:07,119
Speaker 1: and you want to be very, very careful. But through

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Speaker 1: their care in this investigation, what the police discovered was,

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Speaker 1: first off, they found mom and Dad's phone. They were

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Speaker 1: hidden away and I think if I remember correctly, they

421
00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:20,280
Speaker 1: were hidden hidden away on a shelf and eath an

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Speaker 1: old pair of shoes, if I'm not mistaken. But the

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Speaker 1: other thing that they found were several spent case tings

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Speaker 1: which the caliber was seven point six two by thirty nine,

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Speaker 1: which UM folks are familiar with firearms. That's actually the

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00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:39,320
Speaker 1: same round that an AK forty seven platform or an

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00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:45,280
Speaker 1: AK platform utilizes. In this case, when the police began

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00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:48,680
Speaker 1: to search through the home, they pulled back part of

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Speaker 1: the wall, uh that was that was kind of hidden,

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Speaker 1: and they discovered what turned out to be an SKS

431
00:26:55,520 --> 00:27:00,000
Speaker 1: rifle that actually fires uh. This same the same shelf

432
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:02,600
Speaker 1: case in that they found the same the same AMMO

433
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:06,320
Speaker 1: that they found with the spent spent brass at the scene.

434
00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:09,720
Speaker 1: And so that was a specific tie back to these

435
00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:15,960
Speaker 1: injuries that Bart had sustained. He had the forensic pathologist

436
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:20,479
Speaker 1: actually testified that one of the rounds traveled through his spine,

437
00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:26,320
Speaker 1: smashed it and cut through his spinal cord. Quite horrific.

438
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:29,800
Speaker 1: And there's evidence that there was an attempt to clean up.

439
00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:33,080
Speaker 1: But as we know, it doesn't matter how much you

440
00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:35,240
Speaker 1: clean up nowadays, we're going to be able to find

441
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:37,679
Speaker 1: The forensic community is going to be able to find blood.

442
00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:40,399
Speaker 1: In this case, they did. They found a treasure trove

443
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:45,160
Speaker 1: of blood at the scene, and as you rightly mentioned, Jackie,

444
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:50,920
Speaker 1: this is a real interesting point here. They found Bart

445
00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:55,920
Speaker 1: and Christa's blood droplets and they identified those through DNA

446
00:27:56,160 --> 00:28:00,359
Speaker 1: on the exterior of a pair of shoes there. But

447
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:04,600
Speaker 1: guess what they did. They swabbed the interior of the shoe,

448
00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:09,639
Speaker 1: and guess what the only DNA was that they found

449
00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:13,360
Speaker 1: on the interior the shoe that was Chandlers. And so

450
00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:17,840
Speaker 1: you've got this kind of odd marriage between a son

451
00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:23,480
Speaker 1: and his parents and death where their evidence is being

452
00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:26,399
Speaker 1: borne out in shoes that he utilized as he was

453
00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:28,960
Speaker 1: taking the bodies and part in their home. You said

454
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:33,680
Speaker 1: something very specific there, Joe, talking about blood droplets. One

455
00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:35,679
Speaker 1: of the things that I have learned from listening to

456
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:40,160
Speaker 1: you and Nancy Grays is there's a difference in the

457
00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:44,959
Speaker 1: way blood falls. Can you explain that to me? Yeah, absolutely, Jackie,

458
00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:48,080
Speaker 1: we'll get you. Know, you can have various forms of

459
00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:51,920
Speaker 1: blood staining that take place. You have like a dynamic form,

460
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:56,240
Speaker 1: a very dynamic form where we measure velocity, where we'll

461
00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:58,600
Speaker 1: talk about low velocity. If you think and kind of

462
00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:02,240
Speaker 1: break this down for you, think about low velocity blood staining.

463
00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:05,080
Speaker 1: That's going to be where someone, let's say, for instance,

464
00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:08,080
Speaker 1: is punched, Okay, that's about as much velocity as a

465
00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:12,040
Speaker 1: human punch could sustain, or maybe a stomp Okay, the

466
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:15,040
Speaker 1: blood droplets will be rather big. Then you go up

467
00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:18,600
Speaker 1: to a medium velocity, okay, and the medium velocity is

468
00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:21,480
Speaker 1: going to be say, if an individual is struck with

469
00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:24,400
Speaker 1: a bat or they're hit with a machette or something

470
00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:27,200
Speaker 1: like that, where you can leverage force. All right, that'll

471
00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:30,320
Speaker 1: be medium velocity. And then you have high velocity, which

472
00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:34,800
Speaker 1: is this kind of fine particular or histamine like spray

473
00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:37,800
Speaker 1: that comes off and that's generally associated and it's almost

474
00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:44,560
Speaker 1: always associated with gunfire. And so those are the three

475
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:48,680
Speaker 1: types of dynamic blood staining that we have. Now you

476
00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:52,720
Speaker 1: do have other types. You have this kind of passive dripping, say,

477
00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:55,840
Speaker 1: for instance, back to somebody being punched. If you have

478
00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:59,200
Speaker 1: a bloody nose, and many people have, as you're standing

479
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:01,360
Speaker 1: there in the blood it is falling from your nose,

480
00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:04,240
Speaker 1: that's kind of a passive droplet and the droplets remained

481
00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:06,840
Speaker 1: large and that sort of thing. And then you have

482
00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:10,240
Speaker 1: transfer a blood which is where you brush up against

483
00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:13,320
Speaker 1: something or you grab something and blood is transferred onto

484
00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:16,760
Speaker 1: a surface. So all of these types of blood droplets

485
00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:20,680
Speaker 1: and blood staining are very specific, and somebody that is

486
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:24,239
Speaker 1: a blood expert can actually kind of ferret through this

487
00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:26,720
Speaker 1: and understand this, and they can actually tell a tale.

488
00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:29,360
Speaker 1: So if you have blood droplets on a shoe, say,

489
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:31,960
Speaker 1: for instance, in this case, the thing that you want

490
00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:35,120
Speaker 1: to think about, well, we know that there was a fire,

491
00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:38,920
Speaker 1: I'm involved, right, So is it a high velocity blood

492
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:41,280
Speaker 1: stain where you have this kind of fine system and

493
00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:44,360
Speaker 1: spray that's on the surface of the shoe and kind

494
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:46,080
Speaker 1: of on the tongue of the shoe and this sort

495
00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:49,320
Speaker 1: of thing, or is it this kind of passive dripping

496
00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:52,480
Speaker 1: that's taking place as if you were, say for instance,

497
00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:56,840
Speaker 1: sawing or remain all right? Or is it a transfer?

498
00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:00,280
Speaker 1: Is this a transfer where for instance, you've got a

499
00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:04,440
Speaker 1: bloody surface, say like an arm that's been dismembered or

500
00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:06,680
Speaker 1: taken away from a body, and you brush up against

501
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:09,800
Speaker 1: it with your shoe and this creates this kind of swath,

502
00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:13,400
Speaker 1: this blood swath that's on the shoe itself, on the surface.

503
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:16,360
Speaker 1: So we look at this and these the dynamics of

504
00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:18,800
Speaker 1: the blood itself can tell us a tale about what

505
00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:27,360
Speaker 1: actually happened. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is body

506
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:27,760
Speaker 1: backs