Speaker 1: You are listening to the Dan Patrick Show on Fox Sports.
Speaker 2: Radio John Shier the third season dukead basketball coach moving
Speaker 2: into the Final four. You've been there as a player,
Speaker 2: You've been there as an assistant coach. What's it like
Speaker 2: to be there as a head coach?
Speaker 3: Dan, Well, it's great to be with you. You know
Speaker 3: it couldn't be more excited about this opportunity. I'll feel it,
Speaker 3: you know, I'll feel it in person in San Antonio,
Speaker 3: But to be honest with you, it feels surreal, you know,
Speaker 3: like it's the promised Land. Obviously we're hungry for more,
Speaker 3: but couldn't be more excited by this opportunity.
Speaker 2: You always want to be the guy who follows, the
Speaker 2: guy who follows the legend. I'll go back to John Wooden,
Speaker 2: and you know you didn't get that. You've got the
Speaker 2: opportunity to coach, but you're following the legend. In Mike Ryzewski,
Speaker 2: I don't know if you did research or talk to
Speaker 2: people who were the ones following the legend as opposed
Speaker 2: to following the person following the legend.
Speaker 3: Well, you know what, Dan, I did more research on
Speaker 3: successions then, uh, I think you can imagine you know,
Speaker 3: especially in sport, right, but even in business.
Speaker 4: Uh.
Speaker 3: And I tried to find connections about you know, really
Speaker 3: why you know others weren't as successful and what went
Speaker 3: wrong and because in most cases it wasn't about what
Speaker 3: went right. You know, it's it's been, it's been very difficult,
Speaker 3: And I think the first and most important thing I
Speaker 3: found was to be really connected with you know, the
Speaker 3: former coach or the transition and for me, you know
Speaker 3: the fact that Coach K and I are still.
Speaker 5: As close as could be and the succession.
Speaker 3: Me and him were so connected about what had to
Speaker 3: change and what had to improve.
Speaker 5: And what I had to do. But then obviously you're
Speaker 5: not gonna win if you try to be somebody else.
Speaker 3: And so I had to come to terms very quickly
Speaker 3: with I'm not coach K, not gonna try to be him.
Speaker 5: I'm not gonna try to coach like him. I'm gonna
Speaker 5: I'm gonna be myself.
Speaker 3: And wherever that takes us, you know, I can live
Speaker 3: with at the end of the day, because that's the
Speaker 3: only way I'm going to succeed.
Speaker 2: Is there a new philosophy in how to build a
Speaker 2: team in college basketball? You guys might be the anomaly.
Speaker 2: You got three freshmen who are going to be lottery picks.
Speaker 2: But you're seeing a lot of these teams that a
Speaker 2: couple of freshmen, but it's really about getting these you know,
Speaker 2: transfer guys or guys who are going to stay for
Speaker 2: three or four years.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think it has changed a lot.
Speaker 3: I think the biggest difference is now you have to
Speaker 3: build your team based on year to year.
Speaker 5: You know, it's and look, it's.
Speaker 3: When I played, this is only fifteen years ago. When
Speaker 3: I played the starting lineup in my group, we had
Speaker 3: over one hundred starting game, over one hundred games together.
Speaker 3: And look the team we're playing in Houston. Houston has
Speaker 3: great experience together. But for the most part, it is
Speaker 3: year to year. I think for me, the challenge is
Speaker 3: trying to find some level of continuity, which I think
Speaker 3: still can be done in a different way. We're still
Speaker 3: bringing in really talented, already made players that we develop
Speaker 3: over the course of the year and have big expectations
Speaker 3: like the guys you you know you had mentioned as
Speaker 3: freshman now, but I think we do it our own way,
Speaker 3: and that's what I'm proud of. You know, I think
Speaker 3: it's not going to be cookie Cutter, we need this
Speaker 3: amount of transfers, returners, freshmen. I think it's based on
Speaker 3: the level of readiness that the freshmen we recruit have
Speaker 3: and then also the returners we can possibly bring back.
Speaker 3: And I think as you look at our roster, Dan,
Speaker 3: the combination of the Seon James, the Malik Browns, the
Speaker 3: Mason Gillis, with the Tyrees, Proctor and Caleb Foster, well
Speaker 3: that helps the freshmen having some level of experience with them.
Speaker 2: How would you do against Proctor in a shooting contest?
Speaker 3: I would beat them, beat me in the game, but
Speaker 3: I'm gonna beat any of our guys still, I think, Dan.
Speaker 2: How do you coach a freshman as opposed to a
Speaker 2: junior senior.
Speaker 3: I just think for these guys there's a level of
Speaker 3: that they need to always hear the truth.
Speaker 5: You have to hit them right between the eyes. But
Speaker 5: also at the.
Speaker 3: Same time, you have to give them a really good
Speaker 3: confidence because they're going through something they've never experienced before.
Speaker 5: You know, even I'm like, I'm so impressed with the
Speaker 5: maturity these guys have.
Speaker 3: Playing in my first NCAA tournament game and I remember
Speaker 3: how I felt, and these guys haven't acted like it's.
Speaker 2: How did you feel.
Speaker 5: I felt, you know, jittery, you know, I felt, you know, pressure.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 3: We are six seed playing Vcus an eleven seed, and
Speaker 3: you just I think there's a tendency then to when
Speaker 3: you're the higher seed, to play not to lose instead
Speaker 3: of playing to win. And so I've tried to just
Speaker 3: ingrain in them from day one in the preseason of
Speaker 3: being the hunters, you know, not the hunted, and just
Speaker 3: going after this thing.
Speaker 5: And they've embraced that and they've done that.
Speaker 3: But I think with the freshmen, just to continue to
Speaker 3: give them confidence at the same time of trying to
Speaker 3: prepare them for things that they hadn't seen before.
Speaker 5: And that's what I've tried to do.
Speaker 2: He's Duke's head coach John Shier joining us on the program.
Speaker 2: Take me back to the Butler National title game when
Speaker 2: you want Gordon Hayward wasn't your guy? Was he you were?
Speaker 5: He wasn't my guy in terms of me guarding him?
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I was ahead on the play that he
Speaker 3: got the left. So I think people always think about
Speaker 3: last half court shot, which is right.
Speaker 5: There, the one before that he had.
Speaker 3: We were under out of bounds, we were up by
Speaker 3: one and he had an isolation play at the top
Speaker 3: of the key and he ended up shooting about like
Speaker 3: a fifteen footer from the baseline.
Speaker 5: I thought it was going in, Dan, I was right
Speaker 5: under the basket.
Speaker 3: It just probably if it's an inch shorter or it
Speaker 3: goes in, it goes long. So that shot, to me,
Speaker 3: was the one that scared me. I was already thinking
Speaker 3: about the how we were gonna win with the timeout
Speaker 3: or what we were going to do.
Speaker 5: But the half court shot was.
Speaker 3: Something I'll never forget, and I just I felt to
Speaker 3: hiss off with the last second. I was ahead on
Speaker 3: the play, but but thank god he missed it.
Speaker 2: If he hit that shot, he becomes Latner.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know what, And probably I don't know if
Speaker 3: I'm the head coach to Duke.
Speaker 5: I don't know if I think the whole I think my.
Speaker 4: Whole life is.
Speaker 3: I think there's a lot of things that could be
Speaker 3: different from from from that shot.
Speaker 2: But do you explain to your kids. And I don't
Speaker 2: know if you feel this, but the Latner years, even
Speaker 2: JJ Reddick, people hated Duke. Yeah, it doesn't feel that way.
Speaker 2: This is this is a team that people may root for.
Speaker 2: Maybe not root against, but they're not, you know, they're
Speaker 2: they're like, hey, Cooper Flag looks great. I mean, you
Speaker 2: got it seems like a fun team. They play, you know,
Speaker 2: great offense and defense. Are you guys embraceable?
Speaker 5: I share, hope so.
Speaker 3: And look, it's funny because I think we are always
Speaker 3: in brain. But like you said, I think it's a.
Speaker 5: Different feeling, and I can't explain why that is.
Speaker 3: I hope it's the fact that you have a group
Speaker 3: of really talented players that really embrace playing the right way.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 3: It's led to some beautiful offense and they're tough, you know,
Speaker 3: like they're not afraid of anything. So I think that
Speaker 3: combination maybe has been received well. But again not JJ Reddick.
Speaker 4: Was the same.
Speaker 5: I want. I don't know what it is. I don't
Speaker 5: know what it is.
Speaker 2: Have you had the conversation with Cooper Flag about coming back?
Speaker 5: No, okay?
Speaker 2: Just is there going to be a conversation?
Speaker 4: No?
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 3: Although I can dream about that, yes you can, I
Speaker 3: just you know, I think that's all it is.
Speaker 5: In this case.
Speaker 4: I think it's a dream.
Speaker 3: And uh, I think he's got to take the next
Speaker 3: dream in his life and be the topic in the
Speaker 3: NBA Draft and start his professional career.
Speaker 2: Before I let you go, remember two to Steve Nash
Speaker 2: and he said during his career with Phoenix, coaches told
Speaker 2: him he was too unselfish. There are times where I
Speaker 2: see Cooper flag maybe too unselfish. The Phoenix Suns had
Speaker 2: to tell Steve Nash to shoot more. Is Cooper Flagg
Speaker 2: sort of in that it seems like he's really really
Speaker 2: engaged to get everybody involved. And maybe I'm not going
Speaker 2: to say the detriment you're hit the final four, but
Speaker 2: are there times when you want him to be a
Speaker 2: little more selfish.
Speaker 3: I think you hit the nail on the head with him, Dan,
Speaker 3: because he's part of is what makes him so special
Speaker 3: is him bringing along as teammates and his feel for
Speaker 3: his passing. It is an incredible weapon for our team.
Speaker 3: But also he can want to defer at times to
Speaker 3: get them going and wor at our best. He's at
Speaker 3: our best when he's in complete attack mode. Teammates will
Speaker 3: get shots from that. But that's something I have to
Speaker 3: It's probably the biggest thing we have to get on
Speaker 3: him about and just making sure he's not deferring and
Speaker 3: continually just looking to dominate which he can.
Speaker 2: Good luck in the final four. John, great to connect
Speaker 2: with you again. Thank you, thanks for having me. Appreciate
Speaker 2: you and so John Shire.
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Speaker 2: Seth Greenberg of the Mothership. What a busy guy. He
Speaker 2: was the two time ACC Coach of the Year at
Speaker 2: Virginia Tech. Where are those awards.
Speaker 4: In my office?
Speaker 8: Behind behind my desk somewhere?
Speaker 2: Okay, do you proudly display those and like, hey, come
Speaker 2: on into my office. Look what I got. Like if
Speaker 2: I go into Coach K's office, you know I get
Speaker 2: to see national championship trophies.
Speaker 8: Well, I mean, I'm not coach K, but I do
Speaker 8: have twos you see coaching the Year, and what I
Speaker 8: do is a FaceTime from my office. I showed them
Speaker 8: prominently along with the wins against Duke in Carolina.
Speaker 2: What was your record against Duke?
Speaker 8: Was six?
Speaker 2: And what were you against Dean Smith?
Speaker 8: I mean to coach against Stean, I'm not that old.
Speaker 8: I coached against Roy. I think I had three wins
Speaker 8: against Roy one of them was actually when they were
Speaker 8: number one in the country at Kansas. It was weird.
Speaker 8: I my teams we had four wins against number ones
Speaker 8: and they were all on the road, which is kind
Speaker 8: of bizarre.
Speaker 2: Explain to me the role that coaching plays now as
Speaker 2: opposed to maybe earlier in the tournament or during the
Speaker 2: regular season.
Speaker 8: You know, everyone's gonna say this experience have a factor
Speaker 8: comes in Final four. People have been through it, understand it.
Speaker 8: Had an experience of dealing with all the requests and
Speaker 8: media and kind of finding a balancing point for the preparation.
Speaker 8: I think coaching has an impact every time of the year.
Speaker 8: What are you gonna get, what are you gonna take away?
Speaker 8: You know you're not gonna reinvent yourself in the n
Speaker 8: C andm by tournament. How you get your guys to
Speaker 8: understand what's the essence of what you have to do
Speaker 8: to win, and then making sure you're managing the hardest
Speaker 8: thing on four As an assistant coach at eighty four
Speaker 8: with coachalent Is managing all the obligations and keeping the
Speaker 8: guys focused, It's great. It's unique. You got you know,
Speaker 8: police sports. You know you're practicing in front of twenty
Speaker 8: five thousand people, you've got eight thousand people that want tickets.
Speaker 8: Managing all that so you can stay focused on what's
Speaker 8: most important the game and the very best figure out
Speaker 8: all right, how do we get laser focused on the
Speaker 8: things that are most important? And now it's even harder
Speaker 8: with social media, with agents, with workout gurus, with all
Speaker 8: the other obligations uh that players are asked. And then
Speaker 8: also like some of these guys might end up transferred
Speaker 8: at the end of the front of four.
Speaker 2: I was talking to John Shier last hour about that
Speaker 2: that the blueprint it feels like has changed where you
Speaker 2: have the blue bloods are taking away the mid majors,
Speaker 2: good players to prevent the you know, the mid majors
Speaker 2: from making these Cinderella runs. They're already it's kind of
Speaker 2: circumventing the system there a little bit. Instead of waiting
Speaker 2: for this, they ca them in and grab those players.
Speaker 2: And we're seeing less freshmen impact the tournament other than duke.
Speaker 2: And it feels like now it's you know, maybe sophomores,
Speaker 2: juniors and seniors. Is this is this what we should
Speaker 2: be expecting in years to come, one.
Speaker 8: Hundred percent this is the future one hundred percent. Look
Speaker 8: how old the Duke Look how old uh the Auburn
Speaker 8: team is. You're starting on it. There's a twenty five
Speaker 8: year old, a twenty three year old, a twenty four
Speaker 8: year old. Uh, you can got one freshman Auburn, Todd Petterford,
Speaker 8: You've got three freshmen. Basically at Duke, you don't have
Speaker 8: another freshman. You've got every single team. Look look at
Speaker 8: Florida's team. They got four MiG major transfers that are
Speaker 8: having a huge impact on their team. So this is
Speaker 8: the future, you know, with an iol with the transfer portal,
Speaker 8: and that's why, in a lot of ways, this is
Speaker 8: the way it's going to be. But we've got to
Speaker 8: get guidelines and we just have to and we've got
Speaker 8: to have contracts, and we've got to have incentives. And
Speaker 8: the other thing we've got to do is we've got
Speaker 8: to eventually put education back into this thing. Also, Like
Speaker 8: you've got guys dreads for three or four times, it's
Speaker 8: going to impact graduation. We've got to have incentives for
Speaker 8: academic progress, retention, graduation, community service along with along with
Speaker 8: obviously team success and then maybe some individual success. We've
Speaker 8: got to base salaries we've got to find a way
Speaker 8: to get this thing back. And I'm all for the
Speaker 8: players making money, that's not they but we've got to
Speaker 8: have some like maybe one. College basketball is a professional
Speaker 8: sport right now, That's what it is. It's a professional sport.
Speaker 8: Name a professional sport that has year to year free agency.
Speaker 2: I don't think any well, the owners might allow it
Speaker 2: to happen that because they, yes, they don't want it
Speaker 2: to end.
Speaker 8: And people say, well, coaches can go anytime they want.
Speaker 8: I agree, coaches go any time they want. And you
Speaker 8: see a lot of coaches go from mid major to
Speaker 8: high major. Sey Kevin Willard go from Maryland to Villanova.
Speaker 4: Just a week.
Speaker 8: And that's true. And what do coaches have in their contracts?
Speaker 8: They have to they have two way security. They've got
Speaker 8: guaranteed if they get fired. But they also have buyouts.
Speaker 8: And I actually think the part of the contracts with
Speaker 8: the players needs to be a buyout. I don't care
Speaker 8: who pays it. Player can pay it. The school that's
Speaker 8: trying to get the kid can pay it. But if
Speaker 8: we have buyouts and it's two ways and we have
Speaker 8: two year contracts, we can get some continuity in the game.
Speaker 2: All four number one seeds reach the final four second
Speaker 2: time that that happened two thousand and eight, the only
Speaker 2: other time good thing for the tournament or a bad thing.
Speaker 8: This year a very good thing because those four teams
Speaker 8: have separated themselves all season. Low all these four teams
Speaker 8: that I think I'm not mistaking the bid number one
Speaker 8: in the country. This is the future riving about all
Speaker 8: four number ones. But the one number ones beat the
Speaker 8: number twos. You saw what happened to Tennessee. You saw
Speaker 8: what happened in Michigan State.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I do.
Speaker 8: I think it's good on good. You can see the
Speaker 8: best players playing against each other. You can see the
Speaker 8: best teams who've earned it with their body of work
Speaker 8: throughout the season playing against each other. You're not just
Speaker 8: going to see a sindal or Ella who gets out.
Speaker 8: We don't have that many Cinderellas. We have them in
Speaker 8: the first round of second round. There are very few
Speaker 8: vcus and Loyola's. That doesn't happen very often. And I
Speaker 8: look at upsets. You if you have a one in
Speaker 8: the three and they're major conferences and they teams have
Speaker 8: beaten other high level teams, it's no big thing. But
Speaker 8: this year and the last time most of the four
Speaker 8: number ones, it was in San Antonio. Also this year,
Speaker 8: these four teams have separated themselves throughout the season. Their
Speaker 8: body of work said that, you know, let's see good
Speaker 8: on good. Let's see great defense in Houston and great
Speaker 8: offense and defense in Duke. Let's see Jane I Broome
Speaker 8: having as Willis Reed type moment coming out of the
Speaker 8: locker room, you know, and making that and making that
Speaker 8: three you know against you know, a Florida team with
Speaker 8: Walter Clayton absolutely just took over two games. At the
Speaker 8: end of the game. I actually think it's we have
Speaker 8: a great final four.
Speaker 2: Seth Greenberg, ESPN College basketball analysts. Let me go back
Speaker 2: to Walter Clayton junior. I am a big proponent of
Speaker 2: not letting your best player beat me, and for the
Speaker 2: life of me, couldn't understand this. You know, that's the
Speaker 2: one guy, right, everybody in the building knows that's the
Speaker 2: one guy. Why am I not getting two people at him?
Speaker 2: Why not am I? And I know he's quick, he's
Speaker 2: got a quick release. All of that. I got to
Speaker 2: take the ball out of his hands. Seth, I don't
Speaker 2: understand this from a coaching perspective. Tell me what I'm
Speaker 2: missing here?
Speaker 8: Look good, Look that was my philosophy. Every time I
Speaker 8: want a big game, we took the oundead's best player out.
Speaker 8: I mean it was just an automatic great Mcflasland did
Speaker 8: that for a thirty six minutes. They blitzed him on
Speaker 8: every ball street they got the ball out of his hands. Uh,
Speaker 8: and they did an incredible job on him. They always
Speaker 8: committed two to the ball and forced to kick it out.
Speaker 8: Now one time, late game, look that upset. It takes
Speaker 8: two to tag them. So like Texas Tech help him
Speaker 8: by missing the free throws. Text helped him by taking
Speaker 8: some quick shots. And then you know Thomas how happened.
Speaker 8: He makes those first two three which were huge, one
Speaker 8: of them on a pass off a double team where
Speaker 8: they got the ball of Clayton's hands and he gave
Speaker 8: it up early and help knocked down a big three
Speaker 8: late in the game. I have one hundred percent agree
Speaker 8: with you. Late in the game, I thought Clayton did
Speaker 8: a really good job of relocating quickly before they could
Speaker 8: sit send a second guy at him. The one the
Speaker 8: last one he made where he was inside the three
Speaker 8: point line about the foul line, and he turned and
Speaker 8: dribbled out and got himself squared up. I asked, jday
Speaker 8: will be a day? How hard I couldn't. I can't
Speaker 8: relate to it?
Speaker 4: How hard is that to do?
Speaker 8: And like it's really hard? So like I give the
Speaker 8: guy credit for making those plays. But that's what Grant
Speaker 8: mccasla wanted to do. But he, like he said, he
Speaker 8: thought it seemed got a little tired and lost its focus.
Speaker 4: Uh.
Speaker 8: And and you knows your focus on that guy and
Speaker 8: he send you home.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And you're right about the free throws because if
Speaker 2: they make the free throws, then there there's no heroics there.
Speaker 2: How would you describe Cooper Flag's game to somebody who
Speaker 2: hadn't seen him play?
Speaker 8: The most versatile player I've seen, And I compare him
Speaker 8: to Grant Hill, Scottie Pippen very much, those two guys.
Speaker 8: I think in Jason Tatum, he's got kind of a
Speaker 8: mixture of all three those guys. I mean, he innitiate
Speaker 8: your offense kind of like they do with Tatum and
Speaker 8: Scottie Pippin Dady, He's cores at all three levels. People
Speaker 8: don't really appreciate his seven two wingspan he's got great
Speaker 8: defensive range and he's so damn unselfish, like he's a
Speaker 8: terrific passer. I mean his feel for the game. For
Speaker 8: he's eighteen years old. He's eighteen years old, and he
Speaker 8: just plays like total like I got this, We're in
Speaker 8: good shape. Never gets to it now his mom has
Speaker 8: lost her mind, but he is perfectly fine. Like that.
Speaker 8: Dude's playing in the biggest games and in the VIMI
Speaker 8: it's knocking out big shots. And like his mom, he
Speaker 8: made a couple of turnovers early in the game and
Speaker 8: the first thing he hears from his mouth and the
Speaker 8: three turnables, you got to be better with the ball.
Speaker 8: I mean, it is a high standard. It is a
Speaker 8: high standard in the Flat family.
Speaker 5: I understand that.
Speaker 8: But he's a unique and you know, people say unicorn.
Speaker 8: I don't know. I've never met a unicorn, so I
Speaker 8: don't know what corn is. But the dude is like really,
Speaker 8: he's not only special, but his demeanor is special and
Speaker 8: yet being fiercely competitive.
Speaker 2: You coaching against Duke when people hated Duke. Yeah, but
Speaker 2: this team is embraced. I said to coach Schier. I said,
Speaker 2: people don't dislike Duke like they're kind of like, yeah,
Speaker 2: you might not root for him, but it doesn't feel
Speaker 2: like you're rooting against them.
Speaker 8: Yeah. I mean a little bit I'd do with Mike
Speaker 8: and Eve Lumpire and had to do it.
Speaker 4: You know, just the.
Speaker 8: Amount of success he had, the consistency and success they
Speaker 8: Duke became Yankees. You loved him, you hated him, you know,
Speaker 8: it's just just the way it is.
Speaker 4: Uh So.
Speaker 8: I mean Coach K and what he was able to
Speaker 8: build and a consistency that he had. People got tired
Speaker 8: of him, and you know, either you liked him or
Speaker 8: you didn't like it John Shire, and I'm glad you
Speaker 8: had him all to me. He's incredible. He is so
Speaker 8: comfortable in his own skin. He's not Coach K two
Speaker 8: point zero or one point zho. He's John Shire two
Speaker 8: point oh. He is one, unapologetically himself. The way they
Speaker 8: play totally different style of basketball in a lot of ways,
Speaker 8: the way they defend differently than not denying everything to
Speaker 8: keep you in front. The way he interacts with his
Speaker 8: team holds him accountable but a little bit different, but
Speaker 8: a great communicator. Coach K was a great motivator in
Speaker 8: the history of our sport. Maybe in the history of sport. Ever,
Speaker 8: his ability to create causes whether he did it with
Speaker 8: the Olympic team and with his duke teams. But john
Speaker 8: Shire has a likability to him. He's allowed these guys
Speaker 8: and it's a different age. Everyone knows these guys now
Speaker 8: from TikTok and social media and the accessibility that they have.
Speaker 8: You see their personalities. They're not like put in small boxes.
Speaker 8: So I think the social media aspect of it has
Speaker 8: changed it. John Shire's approach has changed it, and these
Speaker 8: kids are very comfortable putting themselves out and being a
Speaker 8: little bit outside the box of you would think that
Speaker 8: people expect them to be.
Speaker 2: I know you're busy. Thanks as always, great to talk
Speaker 2: to you again, Seth.
Speaker 8: Always honored to be on your show. You're the best.
Speaker 2: That's Seth Greenberg.
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Speaker 2: He's the host of Gills Arena podcast, three time All
Speaker 2: Star with the Wizards, and his show, his underdog hit
Speaker 2: show Just sor pasted one million subscribers. Look at you,
Speaker 2: You're making moves man. Your makeup trying to uh this
Speaker 2: time of the year. I think back to March Madness
Speaker 2: when you guys played for the National Championship and you
Speaker 2: played against Duke. What do you remember about that moment?
Speaker 4: That's funny because of Richard Jefferson. I remember the Final
Speaker 4: four against Michigan State where I was doing a lot
Speaker 4: of gambling for steals and try to get through a
Speaker 4: pinned down screen and Troy it was Hudson and Zach
Speaker 4: Randolph closed that door on me and I tore a
Speaker 4: soft tissue muscle in my chest. I finished the game,
Speaker 4: but you know I was hurt going into the championship.
Speaker 2: Game or you would have beaten Duke. Is that what
Speaker 2: you're saying?
Speaker 4: Of course, Oh, I was a man on fireback.
Speaker 2: Was that Mike Dunlevy's Duke team.
Speaker 4: Yes, that was Mike dun Leaby's breakout game, you know,
Speaker 4: but they had a a roster also that uh Jason
Speaker 4: Will or Jay Will Boozer. You had Duhan Young, Duhan
Speaker 4: Shane Baddie was the best player on the team. So
Speaker 4: uh they were there were there also.
Speaker 2: Loaded Did you hate Duke?
Speaker 4: I did? I did because I thought, you know, even
Speaker 4: though I was hurt, we still had a chance to
Speaker 4: win that game. And I think there was like twenty
Speaker 4: two missed calls in that game, which we felt we
Speaker 4: was reffed unfairly.
Speaker 2: Wait wait, wait, who decided there were twenty two miss calls?
Speaker 4: You know, you know ESPN after, you know, you know
Speaker 4: when you watch after, you know there was a pivotal
Speaker 4: play where Jason Gardner was dribbling and uh, he stopped
Speaker 4: and Jay Will fell on him, which would have been
Speaker 4: his third foul in the first and they didn't even
Speaker 4: call him. He's just sitting there. Jay Wills fell all
Speaker 4: on him. He's just sitting there, just bouncing the ball,
Speaker 4: and they never actually called that foul.
Speaker 2: So you think Duke getting preferential treatment.
Speaker 4: It felt that way, and it felt that it did
Speaker 4: feel that way. But you know, it's the championship game.
Speaker 4: You know, they can't call it everything.
Speaker 2: Uh, I'm curious with nil, with your son and your daughter,
Speaker 2: you do have the financial means that you know, but
Speaker 2: do you still how are they taking advantage? Will they
Speaker 2: take advantage of name, image and likeness your son and
Speaker 2: daughter very very highly rated recruits.
Speaker 4: Yes, you know, I told them. You know, there's nil
Speaker 4: and then there's collective right most you know, parents are
Speaker 4: mixing the two and they don't understand the difference. Nil
Speaker 4: is your name in likeness, so you have to be
Speaker 4: a popular player and personality. The collective is what everyone's
Speaker 4: getting from the school themselves, right, so you know the
Speaker 4: school all money is very different from the NIO nio.
Speaker 4: You have to earn through your performance, your social media presence,
Speaker 4: so you know their understanding. You know that that that situation.
Speaker 2: Okay, but are you their agent? Are you negotiating?
Speaker 4: No, No, I'll talk to agents right now. You know,
Speaker 4: my son is thinking about going with Clutch Sports, you know,
Speaker 4: and you know, working on the NIL side of it.
Speaker 4: You know, my daughter's still trying to figure out, you know,
Speaker 4: what she wants to go with. I think she might
Speaker 4: go with Aaron Goodwin for her NIL and collective deals.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then your son reclassified.
Speaker 4: Yes, he went from being a junior to a senior.
Speaker 4: So he can you know, get into college early because
Speaker 4: the collective money will be cut off April eighth and
Speaker 4: then there will be a cap in college.
Speaker 2: But do you look at Cooper Flag at eighteen being
Speaker 2: successful as any kind of blueprint or hey, my son
Speaker 2: can do the same thing at the same age.
Speaker 4: You know, you can't, you can't, you can't compare you know,
Speaker 4: your kids to these unicorn type of kids. Well that's
Speaker 4: where a lot of parents mess up. You know. Cooper
Speaker 4: Flag is one of those rare, you know kids where
Speaker 4: you know, you can't build the blueprint off of you know,
Speaker 4: those type of kids, the Lebron James Cooper Flags, the
Speaker 4: Paulo ben Cherys, the Zion william Though those are one offs. Right,
Speaker 4: Cooper Flag will be successful. He's I mean, what can
Speaker 4: you say about him? Right, he's the number one pick.
Speaker 4: He will be the number one pick. And people say,
Speaker 4: if AJ was in this draft, he will be the
Speaker 4: number one pick. Yeah, right, I'm sorry. Just Cooper Flag
Speaker 4: has it engine. You can't teach, right, you can teach
Speaker 4: them skill, you can teach them the game, you can't
Speaker 4: teach how hard he plays the game. And seventeen you know,
Speaker 4: now eighteen, I'm drafting him number one every single time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's tricky. Now, who's the best player who couldn't
Speaker 2: miss that you played against or with? Like everybody thought
Speaker 2: that guy is going to be a star, And just
Speaker 2: for whatever reason, wasn't.
Speaker 4: That I played with or seen coming into the league.
Speaker 4: We'll probably been in my draft where we had all
Speaker 4: the high school kids. You know that Eddie Curry's the
Speaker 4: Tyson Chaman. We knew he was just a defensive player.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 4: The Kwame Browns.
Speaker 2: How does Mike Michael Jordan take Kwame Brown?
Speaker 4: How does he like upside? What? Oh?
Speaker 2: Okay, so you're upside?
Speaker 4: You know. So what you're looking at is you're looking
Speaker 4: at the age. You're looking at the body style, and
Speaker 4: you're looking at the raw potendual of the player. Where
Speaker 4: what's his ceiling? What's his his floor? And you know
Speaker 4: it's it's not the kids that are the best, it's
Speaker 4: the organization because you're taking this kid with the idea
Speaker 4: that you're gonna build something great. So if you don't
Speaker 4: build something greater, if you don't have the infrastructure of
Speaker 4: building you know, a player, then it's your it's your
Speaker 4: fault because the eighteen year old doesn't know what to do.
Speaker 4: He's coming in from high school straight into the NBA.
Speaker 4: He doesn't know the landscape. So you have to teach him,
Speaker 4: teach him that.
Speaker 2: But Jordan, you know, takes a chance on Kwame and
Speaker 2: then Adam Morrison was the other end. He had been
Speaker 2: in college, and both of these guys turned out to
Speaker 2: be bussed. So, you know, Mike and a lot of
Speaker 2: great players, former players have a hard time, you know,
Speaker 2: assessing other players because their standards are so high.
Speaker 4: It's it's it's the standard. But it's also the the
Speaker 4: delusion of what makes you great. Right, So someone like Jordan,
Speaker 4: he thinks he's great or he was great because of
Speaker 4: his fundamentals of the game. Right. He doesn't consider the
Speaker 4: raw athleticism that he had, the big hands, the forty
Speaker 4: seven inch vertical, the fast twitch book. He doesn't consider that.
Speaker 4: So he looks at, you know, what made him the
Speaker 4: greatest of all time, not what he came into the
Speaker 4: environment with. You already had a Bugatti engine and then
Speaker 4: you tweaked it for you know, every train. He's buying
Speaker 4: Honda's and drafted Hondas thinking he could turn them into
Speaker 4: bagattis like no, right, So it's it's it's a little
Speaker 4: bit of the delusion that he came into the world
Speaker 4: with the Bagatti.
Speaker 2: Already we're talking to Gilbert Arena's co host of Gil's
Speaker 2: Arena podcast. But you had Jordan Washington Wizard's version.
Speaker 4: No I played against that I was the person that came.
Speaker 5: In after he left.
Speaker 2: Oh okay, yeah, so did you play against him as
Speaker 2: a rookie?
Speaker 4: I played against them those first two years in.
Speaker 2: Washington, okay, And how was that.
Speaker 4: As a you know, I played him in I played
Speaker 4: against him in ninety nine, right when he retired at
Speaker 4: Jordan Camp. When I played against him in the NBA
Speaker 4: is Jordans. So you know, for the most part you're
Speaker 4: admiring as a young fan, but you're also trying to
Speaker 4: show him that you belong to So you know, I
Speaker 4: dropped forty one on him.
Speaker 2: Do you think he remembers that as well as you?
Speaker 4: Right? Yeah, no, yeah, he remembers it because you know,
Speaker 4: you know, I was a Jordan Camp kid, I was
Speaker 4: a counselor. So I was performing very well then too.
Speaker 4: So when I got to the NBA, I used to
Speaker 4: talk a bunch of trash of how I did him.
Speaker 4: He said, this is the big leagues. Nothing changed.
Speaker 2: Do you ever have a situation where like Steven A
Speaker 2: did with Lebron James, where a reporter a broadcaster that
Speaker 2: you have a an incident on the court.
Speaker 4: No, I understood media early. You know, I usually beat
Speaker 4: them to the punch right. So if I had a
Speaker 4: bad game, I I I brung it up first. You know,
Speaker 4: I didn't let anyone hit me with you know, your
Speaker 4: four for seventeen performance. I was like, I know why
Speaker 4: you guys are here. I was four for seventeen, So
Speaker 4: let's just get right to it. So, you know, already
Speaker 4: lightened the room. But you know, this is uncharted territory.
Speaker 4: You know, no one ever played with their kid, no
Speaker 4: one ever had you know, this type of situation where
Speaker 4: you can have this blended gray area conversations.
Speaker 2: But what if you were in the league and your
Speaker 2: son was able to go into the NBA and you
Speaker 2: had that wealth of power that you said, hey, I'm
Speaker 2: going to navigate this, so we draft my son to
Speaker 2: be able to play with me at the end of
Speaker 2: my career.
Speaker 4: I would have did the same thing.
Speaker 2: Okay, listen, let's just be honest.
Speaker 4: Every parent would have did the same thing. Across the landscape.
Speaker 4: Most of you know America, kids that go into the
Speaker 4: business is not ready. They're not ready to take over
Speaker 4: the business or get into the situations they get into.
Speaker 4: But you know, as a parent, as a father, as
Speaker 4: a mother, that is your job to prep your kid
Speaker 4: and get them ready for this level. So you know
Speaker 4: what lebron did, every parent would have. Right. But if
Speaker 4: you if you rewind and go back to you know,
Speaker 4: the fifty fifth pick, who did they who was available?
Speaker 4: That's showing you right now they should have been that
Speaker 4: pick No. One right. So being nineteen years old, athletic
Speaker 4: for a point guard, six too fast, right, strong, can shoot,
Speaker 4: can dribble, right, that was the right pick. And you
Speaker 4: know people have to remember that Clutch said, if you
Speaker 4: picked him earlier, then we're trying to we're going to
Speaker 4: go overseas. So there was teams interested before fifty fifth.
Speaker 2: How have you assessed Bronnie? Have you been critical?
Speaker 4: Yes, I'm I'm I live in reality right Wait?
Speaker 5: Yeah, true?
Speaker 4: But from the forty from the fortieth pick to the
Speaker 4: sixtieth pick, what am I expecting from these guys? Right?
Speaker 4: A bench filler, someone who's gonna go to the G League.
Speaker 4: They'll probably been be out of the league by two years. Right,
Speaker 4: Maybe they might get to the thirty year, but most
Speaker 4: of these guys are not getting to a second contract.
Speaker 4: So where Bronni is I figured, Okay, by the time
Speaker 4: his third year comes around, he would be usable in NBA.
Speaker 4: You know, come in, you know, last two minutes of
Speaker 4: the game, last three minutes, you know he'd be one
Speaker 4: of those type of players. I did not effect him
Speaker 4: to be dominated in the G League right now. I
Speaker 4: thought he had to learn how to be aggressive. The
Speaker 4: bones of his game was already there right, fast and jump.
Speaker 4: You can't teach that being aggressive in the shell shock
Speaker 4: of Curry, Ja Morant, Yeah, that was gonna get That
Speaker 4: gets everyone number one pick to the sixtith pick, right.
Speaker 4: So I'm impressed with how fast he actually turned his
Speaker 4: game around and you can see the confidence in him.
Speaker 2: Who are the best offensive players in your career that
Speaker 2: you faced that.
Speaker 4: I faced, Uh, Cody Bryant, Tracy McGrady, Alan Iverson.
Speaker 2: That's pretty good list.
Speaker 4: Yeah, Kevin Durant, Lebron James, I can, I can even
Speaker 4: I can put Tim Duncan up there, Vince Carter, right.
Speaker 4: So I came in Dwayne Wade like Carmelo Anthony right.
Speaker 4: So the the I came in is basically, if you
Speaker 4: look at the top five shooting guards of all time,
Speaker 4: I actually played against all of them.
Speaker 2: Who's the best shooter of all time? Best shooter Steph Curry,
Speaker 2: not even close, not even close. How would you do
Speaker 2: in a shooting contest.
Speaker 4: If we if we had to shoot a hundred times,
Speaker 4: I'll probably win ten, ten to fifteen of those games.
Speaker 4: It's it's it's when you when you're talking about that elite,
Speaker 4: the Reggie Miller's, the Birds, the Craig Hodges, the Clays,
Speaker 4: even you know Kevin Durant Kawhi is a great shooter.
Speaker 4: It's about who can empty their brain the longest. Meaning,
Speaker 4: there's no thought, right, There's not oh did I leave
Speaker 4: the stove on? Is anybody watching? It's just it's just
Speaker 4: Homer Simpson. It's Homer Simpsons moment. Who can be Homer
Speaker 4: Simpson the longest? No? Right? And I think that you know,
Speaker 4: Curry and Clay seems like they can sustain it longer
Speaker 4: than you know, everybody else I've ever seen.
Speaker 2: But it feels like there's a really wide margin, Gilbert
Speaker 2: between the greatest shooter of all time and then whoever
Speaker 2: is the second greatest shooter of all time?
Speaker 4: It's the longevity.
Speaker 2: But is Ray Allen like, who's the second greatest shooter
Speaker 2: of all time?
Speaker 4: Probably Clay, I'm sorry to say, I really believe it's
Speaker 4: Klay Thompson because the shots he's had to take, the valume,
Speaker 4: the microscope of it, the sixty points with you know,
Speaker 4: less than eleven dribbles. Right, those guys didn't do that.
Speaker 4: I mean the shot ability was it in the era then,
Speaker 4: But just to see he's doing that with two Hall
Speaker 4: of Famers first ballot on his roster. If you remove
Speaker 4: those guys, I mean, Jesus Christ Clay would have been
Speaker 4: first ballot. He still might be a first battle, but
Speaker 4: you would be saying he is the greatest shooter of
Speaker 4: all time. It's just the ways he did it. Now,
Speaker 4: if I'm gonna take clutch, I'm going with Reggie Miller, right,
Speaker 4: Reggie Miller's clutch shooting is above you know those guys.
Speaker 4: Ray Allen is in between of a guy who was
Speaker 4: a I call it like a perfect perfect player shooter
Speaker 4: where he was very athletic, he can shoot, he can
Speaker 4: play make right. So he was he was like above
Speaker 4: Reggie and just the player themselves. And then Steph actually
Speaker 4: combined everyone into one. Someone who can shoot off the dribble,
Speaker 4: fast break, shooting, off the screen, shooting, his ability to
Speaker 4: just put him all in one. That's what Steph Curry is.
Speaker 2: How bothered are you that Richard Jefferson went thirteenth in
Speaker 2: the draft and you went thirty first.
Speaker 4: Oh, not gonna lie every time I see his face
Speaker 4: on my eh, because it's it's the one thing he
Speaker 4: can always bring up that actually gets to me, right,
Speaker 4: you know, me being an All Star all NBA getting
Speaker 4: paid more than him. Something about the draft where he
Speaker 4: was he was the fourth best player on our team.
Speaker 4: Like from his freshman year to his junior year, he
Speaker 4: didn't improve in nothing, right, eleven points freshman year, eleven
Speaker 4: points sophomore year, eleven points junior year, Like, but it
Speaker 4: really did open up my eye to understand what the
Speaker 4: next level is. Right, it's not about your college performance,
Speaker 4: it's about your upside. And then when you step back
Speaker 4: out of our team, he had the best upside. Right.
Speaker 4: You know, you're talking about a six seven six eight
Speaker 4: small forward, shooting guard, today's power forward, today's center who
Speaker 4: can run, jump, defend, put the ball in the basket
Speaker 4: if need be. That's that's where you're gonna go with
Speaker 4: Every single time he looks.
Speaker 2: Like he was a star player when you see him
Speaker 2: on TV.
Speaker 4: Yes, yes, Like he was a very very good mixture
Speaker 4: of if you need me to dominate, I can or
Speaker 4: I can be your second option, your third option. I
Speaker 4: can be your bridge player. Right. So he was like
Speaker 4: the perfect guy that if you do not know what
Speaker 4: to pick, you're safe picking him because he can feel
Speaker 4: in a lot of void.
Speaker 2: I'm just saying watching him on ESPN, he the older
Speaker 2: he gets, the better. He was like, he looks like
Speaker 2: he used to be a first team All NBA guy.
Speaker 4: No right where he speaks and he yeah, he got
Speaker 4: the look and he's like, you know, if he said,
Speaker 4: you know, I used to have as you know, twenty
Speaker 4: five you can believe it just by looking at it.
Speaker 2: The Senator Jefferson is who he looks like. He looks
Speaker 2: like he could, you know, run for political office.
Speaker 4: Listen, we had the best personalities on that team. I mean,
Speaker 4: Luke Walton was with us, right, So we had some
Speaker 4: some guys that you know that really pushed a button
Speaker 4: and it's it's no there's no mistake that we're both
Speaker 4: in the same field.
Speaker 2: Hey, congrats on the success of the show. Always great
Speaker 2: to catch up with you. Thank you, Gil, thank you
Speaker 2: appreciate it.
Speaker 4: Appreciate it.
Speaker 2: That's Gills Arena Podcast.