Speaker 1: Patriots Unfiltered the world's original podcast. Patriots Unfiltered brings you
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Speaker 2: He's a red shirt rookie at that point, so it's
Speaker 2: really that's his rookie season essentially too, So now we're
Speaker 2: really not talking about them, really knowing.
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Speaker 1: is the Patriots Catch twenty two podcasts with Evan Lazar
Speaker 1: and Alex bar'lar.
Speaker 2: Blazar from Lazar, Hello, everybody nailed it. He joined as
Speaker 2: always by our Bara Risk. Here is Evan Lazar and
Speaker 2: Alex barrs. So we do have a little bit of
Speaker 2: draft news. Okay, Jalen Milroe has officially declared. Jeez, so
Speaker 2: there's another quarterback on the board. I might have gone
Speaker 2: back if I were him after that game this week,
Speaker 2: but Evan wanted Alabama in the playoffs, so maybe he
Speaker 2: feels differently but I still feel the same way. I
Speaker 2: still would have taken out. They got a housed by Michigan. Michigan.
Speaker 2: They didn't Vanderbilts, theydn't care about the game, cared enough
Speaker 2: to play everybody. Michigan didn't. Michigan played their backups. They
Speaker 2: weren't trying ja trying to. I was going to the draft.
Speaker 3: Just to just to poke them, just to poke them.
Speaker 3: That is what we do on here and and today
Speaker 3: is gonna be a real pos.
Speaker 2: This, This might be an all timer. This is gonna
Speaker 2: be bun because this and I do want to.
Speaker 3: I wanted to start something else, but just really quickly,
Speaker 3: this is you were and I philosophy.
Speaker 2: Oh hold on, you want some uh breaking news here
Speaker 2: from Tom PELLISERA Okay, what is it? Multiple NFL teams
Speaker 2: have inquired about whether legendary head coach Bill Belichick would
Speaker 2: reconsider his move to college football, including the Raiders, whose
Speaker 2: new minority owner Tom Brady spoke recently with his old coach.
Speaker 2: Per league sources, that's that's what you interrupted my dad
Speaker 2: for Brady and Belichick. Cool, Sorry, all right, anyways, the.
Speaker 3: This is a our two philosophies just on football in general.
Speaker 2: This is colliding right here, right.
Speaker 3: This is the the Kyle Shanahan, Sean McVay, my Matt
Speaker 3: Lafleur tight pants crew against a football guy. And this
Speaker 3: is a catch twenty two, perfect dream scenario. If this
Speaker 3: had to happen, these two guys been the top candidates.
Speaker 3: Mike Rabel and Ben Johnson are the perfect top two
Speaker 3: candidates for our philosophies. And how we differ in some
Speaker 3: opinions here so's it's gonna be a doozy.
Speaker 2: But look, we've talked about this stuff a lot in
Speaker 2: the abstract in the what three years now we've been
Speaker 2: doing this show, seven years we've been working together. We've
Speaker 2: talked a lot about this stuff in the abstract. We've
Speaker 2: never talked about it with such immediacy as it relates
Speaker 2: to the Patriots.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I mean this is this is the decision
Speaker 3: right now. Yeah, And then immediacy is a good word.
Speaker 3: And I would just say, also, this is a major,
Speaker 3: major decision for the direction of the franchise in which
Speaker 3: way they want to take this thing. And the good
Speaker 3: news is is that both guys there's no wrong answer
Speaker 3: between Rabel and Ben Johnson. In my opinion, I think
Speaker 3: we both feel this way.
Speaker 2: They're one A and one B. We just might have
Speaker 2: that in a slightly different owner. I can't stress this
Speaker 2: enough because we're gonna say this, then we're gonna spend
Speaker 2: the next two hours riffing apart the other person's candidate, right,
Speaker 2: I think either way? Can I can I start this
Speaker 2: yere like it really comes? They both have unknowns. Neither
Speaker 2: one is a perfect slam dunk Homer and candidate. I
Speaker 2: don't think there is one. Yeah, Honestly, the closest thing
Speaker 2: might have been Brian Davalden. He's going back to the giants.
Speaker 2: There is. So they both have their what IFFs, which
Speaker 2: we'll discuss over the next two hours. It basically comes
Speaker 2: down to which ifs would you rather deal with? What
Speaker 2: questions do you think are more answerable between these two guys.
Speaker 2: What do you feel better about having as kind of
Speaker 2: an unknown going into the twenty twenty five season and beyond.
Speaker 2: So I'm with you. If they hire Rabel great, If
Speaker 2: they hire Ben Johnson great, I don't really want. I mean,
Speaker 2: Flores is an interesting one to me too, agreed. Outside
Speaker 2: of those three guys, now that day balls back in
Speaker 2: New York, I don't know that I have a ton
Speaker 2: of interest in anybody available besides that. Frankly, yeah, I
Speaker 2: think any of those three guys would be good options.
Speaker 2: There is that a couple things. With Flores, you have
Speaker 2: to wait first and foremost, right, a couple of weeks.
Speaker 2: So Robert Kraft has talked about they want to go fast.
Speaker 2: Their actions have reflected that, and that may be. That's
Speaker 2: probably a factor. But between Johnson and Rabel and Flores,
Speaker 2: any of them would be a good higher Yeah.
Speaker 3: Okay, so that says the table. Obviously, we're gonna be
Speaker 3: talking a lot about this. I do have a thought
Speaker 3: on Drawd Mayo in the fallout of this situation with
Speaker 3: Girod Mayo. I don't want to spend a ton of
Speaker 3: time on that, but we haven't been on the air
Speaker 3: since the news of his firing was announced, so I
Speaker 3: do have a thought on that. And then we're going
Speaker 3: to get into the coaching candidates and really peel this back.
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Speaker 3: sponsor of the New England Patriots. So I want to
Speaker 3: go backwards first before we go forward and talk a
Speaker 3: little bit about Jirod Mayo and the situation that led
Speaker 3: to his firing and all that kind of stuff. I
Speaker 3: know there's going to be a lot of stuff out
Speaker 3: there now. Chad Graff had one in the Athletic this morning,
Speaker 3: you know, those pieces that shed light on how things
Speaker 3: were behind the scenes. I think the biggest thing to
Speaker 3: me with Girod Mayo not being ready for this position
Speaker 3: is that and he told us this point blank, just publicly.
Speaker 2: He said.
Speaker 3: Remember he used the line that I'm drinking from a
Speaker 3: fire hose right now. So that was January February, Combine time,
Speaker 3: right around their owners meetings, And when he said that,
Speaker 3: I believe that Girard Mayo had a lot of ideas
Speaker 3: and he actually mentioned this, I think, to one of
Speaker 3: the broadcasts, one of the CBS or Fox or whatever,
Speaker 3: one of those broadcasts. I believe that he had a
Speaker 3: lot of ideas for what he wanted to implement in
Speaker 3: a football program. And then he got the job and
Speaker 3: he realized how much the job entailed, and how they
Speaker 3: had to build a staff, and how they had to
Speaker 3: catch up on the off season with free agency in
Speaker 3: the draft and all these different types of things and
Speaker 3: a lot of that stuff. He wasn't a to come
Speaker 3: to fruition as fast as I think, what is what
Speaker 3: the crafts had hoped and this is just my opinion,
Speaker 3: but as fast as they had hoped that it would,
Speaker 3: and it just didn't ever feel like he had control
Speaker 3: of the position, like he had control of the situation
Speaker 3: of the position, of all the things that went into
Speaker 3: the position. And just as we move forward, because I
Speaker 3: think now the more important story is moving forward, but
Speaker 3: as we move forward here with the Patriots, the one
Speaker 3: thing that I really feel strongly about that needs to
Speaker 3: be done is whoever is going to come in next,
Speaker 3: whether it's Rabel, Ben Johnson, Brian Flores, whoever, whoever is
Speaker 3: going to come in next needs to rebuild the infrastructure
Speaker 3: of the football program. And I'm not necessarily just talking
Speaker 3: about like locker room culture. That's part of it, but
Speaker 3: I'm also just talking about how they handle things from
Speaker 3: a front office perspective, from a coaching staff perspective, like
Speaker 3: you have to get the right coaches in here. You
Speaker 3: have to get good coaches in here on all levels,
Speaker 3: not just a coordinator level, but position coach level. And
Speaker 3: I would also say that they have to get on
Speaker 3: the front office side. They have to build a modern
Speaker 3: front office. And I hate using the word modern, but
Speaker 3: it's the only word I can really think of to
Speaker 3: describe it. They have to get a modern front office
Speaker 3: that is properly staffed, that is heading in the right
Speaker 3: direction in terms of innovation and how teams are evaluating
Speaker 3: and scouting, especially in the draft. And I'm not talking
Speaker 3: about win probability models and I'm not talking about fourth
Speaker 3: down decisions. But they are behind the curve, and we
Speaker 3: know this that they're behind the curve when it comes
Speaker 3: to analytics and a lot of the different things that
Speaker 3: they use now a day's teams like the Chiefs, the Bills,
Speaker 3: the Eagles, the Lions, like these teams are all using Minnesota.
Speaker 3: They're using heavy amounts of in game tracking data analytics.
Speaker 3: I'm not talking about win probability models and fourth down
Speaker 3: decision making.
Speaker 2: Are you just like switch, Why are you making that
Speaker 2: hard for me? No? But that's everything I was gonna
Speaker 2: come in and say, but this is really we're just
Speaker 2: gonna talk about tight kaki pants and putting.
Speaker 3: In we will, but this, this type of stuff is
Speaker 3: important and whoever the candidate is needs to have a direction.
Speaker 3: And I believe when they made the higher for girod
Speaker 3: Mayo and they made that decision, they thought that girod
Speaker 3: Mayo is going to be more prepared and have more
Speaker 3: ideas for that side of things. And this has to
Speaker 3: be brick by brick literally with the practice facility being
Speaker 3: built as we speak, this has to be brick by
Speaker 3: brick for this organization because if you don't start practicing
Speaker 3: and uh, you know, preparing the right way, and again
Speaker 3: not just about literal practice, like also you know, preparing
Speaker 3: for the draft, preparing for free agency and doing those
Speaker 3: things the right way. Again, this is not going to
Speaker 3: get turned around just because you have a hard bleep
Speaker 3: coach versus a player's coach, right or you have a
Speaker 3: Rabel or Ben Johnson. They have to turn this around
Speaker 3: from the ground up. And I definitely think that this
Speaker 3: football program was run by one person for so long
Speaker 3: who could wear so many different hats and was so
Speaker 3: talented at wearing those many hats that when he left,
Speaker 3: When Bill Belichick left, there was just a lot of
Speaker 3: things to fill that just didn't get filled quick enough.
Speaker 2: It's a hell of a take by you. Good job
Speaker 2: you like you're gonna hear he use the word program
Speaker 2: a lot today. Build a program, maintain a program, to
Speaker 2: stay a program. And that's what that means. It is
Speaker 2: more than culture, Like you want to get to a
Speaker 2: point and this is way down the road, this is
Speaker 2: gonna happen in your one but you lay the foundation
Speaker 2: for it. And here when you want to get to
Speaker 2: the point where it's a well oiled machine and it
Speaker 2: kind of becomes self feeding right where. And this is
Speaker 2: what Bill, more than anything else are as coach and GM.
Speaker 2: He built a program. There was a routine, there were
Speaker 2: core philosophies. Uh, there were pipelines, like everything was not
Speaker 2: redund Yeah, redundant is the redundant in the word in
Speaker 2: the sense that like if I'm trying to think of
Speaker 2: an example of this, like there were there were fallback plans.
Speaker 2: If a failed, you would be right there. Everything was streamlined.
Speaker 2: That that's building a program. What are we looking for
Speaker 2: in terms of the type of people we want? What
Speaker 2: are we looking for in the types of players that
Speaker 2: we want? What do we value? What are we putting
Speaker 2: an emphasis on? It felt like under drawd Mayo that
Speaker 2: kind of kept changing based on what the week was
Speaker 2: and what what the narrative was around the team. There
Speaker 2: was never a program in place. There was never the
Speaker 2: foundation of a program in place. So you want and
Speaker 2: it's gonna start from the coach. I know Elliott Wolf
Speaker 2: is still here. Will he be here long term? Will
Speaker 2: he still have final set? I want to get into
Speaker 2: the final say thing, because I think that's important. But
Speaker 2: this is gonna start with the coach, as it does
Speaker 2: most places. You need a coach who can come in
Speaker 2: and establish and start building that program. That to me,
Speaker 2: I know people will say, Drake may is the most
Speaker 2: important thing. You gotta do, it's best for him. I
Speaker 2: think what's best for Drake May more than getting him
Speaker 2: into bells and whistles. Offense is having a program around
Speaker 2: him that is functional and will elevate not just him
Speaker 2: but everybody in the organization. So when I look at
Speaker 2: who should the next head coach be, who do I
Speaker 2: trust to come in and establish that program and get
Speaker 2: that program off and running. Yeah, and I understand that
Speaker 2: side of it. Now. The other side of it is,
Speaker 2: of course the football, and this is all football. But
Speaker 2: this feeds the No, this feeds the football.
Speaker 3: Right, This feeds the football, and the right football people
Speaker 3: need to be back in charge of football. Yes, right,
Speaker 3: And so that's a big thing too, I think with
Speaker 3: the Patriots, So I guess the Patriots as well.
Speaker 2: What I would say is like, the stronger your program
Speaker 2: day to day, week to week, month to month, year
Speaker 2: to year, the easier your life is on Sundays. Yeah.
Speaker 2: So this isn't a corporate Oh, you know, organizational structuring
Speaker 2: and you know flow char build, But no, it's like,
Speaker 2: like you said, all right, what is are how are
Speaker 2: we going to attack each week? In terms of meetings,
Speaker 2: in terms of practices, in terms of this what kinds
Speaker 2: of players do we what? Not figuring out getting to
Speaker 2: camp and suddenly realizing all right, we have four like
Speaker 2: half options at left tackle. What are we gonna do?
Speaker 2: It's this is what we want on a left tackle.
Speaker 2: These are the guys who are gonna fill it, who
Speaker 2: could fill it? This is Plan A, Plan B, Plan
Speaker 2: C to attain these players. Right, That's what I mean
Speaker 2: by program. It's this isn't corporate speak. This is how
Speaker 2: are you operating Monday to Saturday, January to July. So
Speaker 2: when you get to the actual football of it, you
Speaker 2: can just hit the ground and do the football. That's
Speaker 2: what I mean by program. And then that bleeds over
Speaker 2: to to how are the practice? It's how are you
Speaker 2: operating Monday to Saturday to get to Sunday? Right, that
Speaker 2: sort of thing. That's what a program is. It's more
Speaker 2: used in college, but it's this concept applies to the
Speaker 2: NFL too. That is just what are the core forul's,
Speaker 2: What are the core beliefs, What are the cornerstones of
Speaker 2: the organization you're trying to build?
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, And it's getting more popular. I would say
Speaker 3: in the league now that this is a bigger deal
Speaker 3: than the x's and o's and getting somebody that's great
Speaker 3: at the x's and o's because you see the success
Speaker 3: of Dan Campbell, You see the success of Jim Harbaugh
Speaker 3: program in year one with the Chargers. You see the
Speaker 3: success of some of these coaches that aren't specialists on
Speaker 3: one side of the ball. Now at that being said, well,
Speaker 3: you can be.
Speaker 2: A specialist on one side of the ball and still
Speaker 2: be a program builder, Like it's early in Minnesota. Well no,
Speaker 2: but I would say Kevin O'Connor, it's early. So let's
Speaker 2: see what that program. So part of the program thing
Speaker 2: is like. And this is where I go back to Bill.
Speaker 2: We'll get into this more about the coordinators. Right. Yeah,
Speaker 2: So I really like the program that they've built Minnesota.
Speaker 2: Part of that is the defense is great. Yeah, it's
Speaker 2: an out and O'Connell's done a great job at the
Speaker 2: offense and all that justin Jefferson, but it's one of
Speaker 2: the best defenses in the league under a donald they
Speaker 2: have been with an offensive coach. Big part of that
Speaker 2: is Brian Flores. Let's see what it is, right, So
Speaker 2: do you have instead of having to go out and
Speaker 2: scramble and get a defensive coordinator from outside to us
Speaker 2: to learn all the ins and outs and is going
Speaker 2: to make changes and potentially get the reset button and
Speaker 2: things like that. Did your program produce a pipeline as
Speaker 2: they did here for years and years and years, from
Speaker 2: Romeo Curnell to Genie to Dean pis Is in there,
Speaker 2: Patricia Flores Right on the offensive, one's easier to due.
Speaker 2: I don't why I did the defense, but because it's
Speaker 2: there was more stops. Honestly, that's true. But like, let's
Speaker 2: see if if Kevin O'Connell's program has produced a pipeline
Speaker 2: on the defense where Floora's out, next guy's in, boom, seamless.
Speaker 3: So I agree with you that Minnesota is a good
Speaker 3: example of that. Now we have to mention that with Minnesota,
Speaker 3: Quezi is a big, big part of that. Their general manager.
Speaker 3: I'm not going to try to pronounce his last night
Speaker 3: because IM going to, but so I'm just gonna call
Speaker 3: him Quezi. He is a major, major part of that,
Speaker 3: on the personnel side of building this program, right, And
Speaker 3: Quezi is an analytics guy and he's.
Speaker 2: Also a full a football guy.
Speaker 3: But he's you know, he's got his hand in both buckets,
Speaker 3: which is becoming a lot more popular from that side
Speaker 3: of things. Now, with all that being said, when we
Speaker 3: start to unpack these two candidates, Rabel and Ben Johnson.
Speaker 3: And I do want to put this out there that
Speaker 3: my personal belief is that this is Mike Rabel's job,
Speaker 3: if Mike Rabel wants the job. I do not necessarily
Speaker 3: believe that this is a full fledged open process.
Speaker 2: I think that there's.
Speaker 3: A strong indication that Rabel is the guy. If he
Speaker 3: comes in here on Thursday tomorrow and says I want
Speaker 3: the job, we want you, we could this could move.
Speaker 2: His job to lose basically. And look, maybe Ben Johnson
Speaker 2: blows them away, maybe they're underwhelmed by Mike Rabel's pitch.
Speaker 2: But I think as things stay and right now, like
Speaker 2: he's the he's the leader in the clubhouse.
Speaker 3: Yes, And I think that there's a there's a school
Speaker 3: that says Ben Johnson has been the number one offensive
Speaker 3: minded Guru candidate for two cycles in a row, So
Speaker 3: we at least need to hear this guy out right,
Speaker 3: you know, as they should they should to hear him out.
Speaker 3: I am not and it's not me carrying any water.
Speaker 3: I am just not that upset that they're not gonna
Speaker 3: do some search that includes fifteen different candidates, Like, I'm
Speaker 3: not that upset about it.
Speaker 2: Now.
Speaker 3: Do I think that the Pep Hamilton in the in
Speaker 3: the Byron left which of it all was a little bit, Yes,
Speaker 3: But I am not upset that they're not calling in,
Speaker 3: you know, Mike Kafka and Todd Monkin and uh Drew
Speaker 3: Petsing and you know all these other names that are
Speaker 3: being floated around because I Aaron Glenn, you know, I'm
Speaker 3: with you.
Speaker 2: I think it's Rabel, Johnson.
Speaker 3: Flores are the only three guys that I really have
Speaker 3: a ton of interest in, and all these other guys like, yeah,
Speaker 3: it's always great to hear a differing ideas in different perspectives.
Speaker 3: But if we're gonna be real and we're gonna be
Speaker 3: serious about who's truly a candidate for this job, it's
Speaker 3: those three men.
Speaker 2: If they want to move fast, like they say, they do,
Speaker 2: talk to the real options, the real options, and by
Speaker 2: all reports, they are one of, if not the most
Speaker 2: attractive job out there. So you should have your pick.
Speaker 2: The best candidates this cycle with Brian Dabag going back
Speaker 2: to New York are Ben Johnson, Mike Rabel, and Brian Flores.
Speaker 2: They can't talk to Flores for two more weeks, so
Speaker 2: because of the way they talked to the coaching search.
Speaker 2: They can talk to him virtually next week after the
Speaker 2: wildcard round, but they can't even put in a request
Speaker 2: until now, and they can't, so that's why there has
Speaker 2: to be in person until after the divisional. Johnson's in
Speaker 2: virtual two.
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, he's virtual, but because they're on the buy,
Speaker 3: they can interview him virtually this week.
Speaker 2: So no, I'm with Now, Look when we get to
Speaker 2: offensive coordinator defensive coordinator, that's another question that should be
Speaker 2: very wide ranging.
Speaker 3: So I disagree to an extent. Well, some it depends
Speaker 3: on who the coaches if if Mike Rabel comes in.
Speaker 3: And this is another criticism that I had of the
Speaker 3: girod Mayo move was that there was really no girod
Speaker 3: Mayo had no Rolodex to pull from. Basically, all the
Speaker 3: new coaches that came in with the Patriots last year,
Speaker 3: Alex van Pelt, Jeremy Springer, Jerry Montgomery, Drew Wilkins, like
Speaker 3: those guys were all Elliott Wolf connections. Jeremy Springer went
Speaker 3: on the radio as recently as like last week and
Speaker 3: said he didn't even know Gerrod before he got here.
Speaker 3: It was Elliott Wolf that was his connection. We obviously
Speaker 3: know Van Pelt was a wolf guy. So one of
Speaker 3: the things that are appealing to me with both these
Speaker 3: candidates is that Mike Rabel has had a year. You know,
Speaker 3: he's consulting with the Browns, but he's had a year
Speaker 3: to reset and build a staff and say put out
Speaker 3: feelers to coordinators on both sides of the ball, who
Speaker 3: are who's coming with me? And Ben Johnson's had really
Speaker 3: three cycles now to make sure that he has that
Speaker 3: and down too. And there's some rumors like Mark Brunell
Speaker 3: maybe is offensive coordinator move. I know that would be
Speaker 3: testy and.
Speaker 2: I for a number of reasons.
Speaker 3: Now, I don't know if this changes things. With lou
Speaker 3: Ana Mariumo getting fired by the Bengals, him and Big
Speaker 3: Lou spent a lot of time together in Miami on
Speaker 3: the Dolphin staff, which, by the way, have you ever
Speaker 3: just side note real quick, have you ever looked at
Speaker 3: that Miami Dolphin staff.
Speaker 2: I did this. That's absolutely Washington was Joe Golbin was
Speaker 2: the head coach for most of it. But it's Dan Campbell,
Speaker 2: Ben Johnson, lou and Marumo uh the new the interim
Speaker 2: coach in New Orleans. What Rizzy, Like there's like four
Speaker 2: head coaches on that it's that Washington staff. It's the
Speaker 2: same thing.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so there's a lot of connections there with that
Speaker 3: Miami staff in terms of Ben Johnson of guys that
Speaker 3: maybe he could be bringing Big Lou Rizzy if he
Speaker 3: doesn't get another job, which he probably won't, teams coordinator,
Speaker 3: he could be the special teams coordinator here. And those
Speaker 3: things are to me are so appealing. And why the
Speaker 3: move with Gerard Mayo was made, because what was the
Speaker 3: pivot with Gerrod? Right, Like, he already went through a
Speaker 3: coaching hiring cycle once in terms of his staff where
Speaker 3: he really was flying by the seat of his pants
Speaker 3: and didn't have a ton of options. So what was
Speaker 3: the pivot in terms of offensive coordinator? Maybe you could
Speaker 3: have gotten josh on here, but now that's a weird
Speaker 3: I want to say Josh McDaniels, But that's a weird
Speaker 3: sort of dynamic there. So these guys should come in
Speaker 3: turn key, like they should already have a very very
Speaker 3: short list of who they're considering for these positions.
Speaker 2: And let me be clear with Rabel too, because I
Speaker 2: think some people are missing this unless they saw the
Speaker 2: sports supposing the clip of me saying this everywhere this morning,
Speaker 2: Mike Vrabel is not. This isn't Oh, You're just going
Speaker 2: back to the Belichick tree. No, Rabel as a coach
Speaker 2: is independent of Bill Belichick, almost entirely. So he was
Speaker 2: hired in at Ohio State when Jim Tressel was like there,
Speaker 2: but he was suspended. Luke Fickle was the interim. He
Speaker 2: then worked for Erben Meyer. He goes to Houston where
Speaker 2: he works for Bill O'Brien, So that's as close he
Speaker 2: got to the Belichick tree, but it is another program,
Speaker 2: is Bill O'Brien's program, which did differ from Belichick's program,
Speaker 2: and Houston made different connections there, goes to Tennessee. He
Speaker 2: had Dean Peas as his defensive coordinator. But besides that,
Speaker 2: just for a couple of years, Shane Bill really not
Speaker 2: And I think P's was like the only Patriot stat
Speaker 2: guy who had been here who was high level on
Speaker 2: the coaching stat completely different. The front office was different.
Speaker 2: But I would not want him bringing John Robinson here
Speaker 2: and I don't think he will, so I'm not too
Speaker 2: worried about that. And then he went to Cleveland where
Speaker 2: he worked for Stefanski, so he may have more in
Speaker 2: common at this point with Elliot Wolf than Bill Belichick. Look,
Speaker 2: he learned a lot about football from Bill Belichick. I
Speaker 2: think as a player you more learned the culture side,
Speaker 2: which is important in the search. But he's he's been around,
Speaker 2: he's independent of bell Check in terms of the coaching tree,
Speaker 2: like it's he's He's had his own path, he's made
Speaker 2: his own connections. He's been separate to that. So I
Speaker 2: think I don't think it's like, oh another retread. Look,
Speaker 2: could he bring back Belichick? Guys? Sure, I know he's
Speaker 2: kind of There's been some rumors that maybe Josh McDaniels.
Speaker 2: I wouldn't love that. I wouldn't hate it. I'd rather
Speaker 2: see him go back to that offense he was running
Speaker 2: in Tennessee with Arthur Smith and Matt Lafleur. You saw
Speaker 2: what that did for Ryan Tannehill, who I think has
Speaker 2: some physical comparisons to Drake May. So Drake May's obviously
Speaker 2: a much better player, but Drake May and that offense
Speaker 2: would intrigue me. You got to you know, they had
Speaker 2: Derrick Henry, but you make adjustments. But it's not gonna
Speaker 2: be Rabel suddenly bringing back all these guys that were
Speaker 2: here for twenty years. There's gonna be a couple. There
Speaker 2: might be some guys that were here like Vrabel as
Speaker 2: players but have their own independent coaching backgrounds. Wes Welker,
Speaker 2: for instance, he overlapped with in Houston. But he's gonna
Speaker 2: have It's not like draw to your point where it's
Speaker 2: just all right. He was here in New England. He
Speaker 2: knows the guys who were here in New England. There's
Speaker 2: a much vasus. He has a much more vast network. Yeah.
Speaker 3: So when I was at the Senior Bowl last year,
Speaker 3: I actually bumped into Mike rabel Uh and he was
Speaker 3: there as a coaching free agent at the time. He
Speaker 3: hadn't signed a contract with the Browns and I didn't
Speaker 3: speak with him or anything, but I just noticed he
Speaker 3: was there. And when he's there to network, right, he's
Speaker 3: there to talk to executives, to talk to coaches, to
Speaker 3: network and make connections and build build relationships so that
Speaker 3: when he gets his next crack at it, he has
Speaker 3: a Rolodex to then go to and say this is
Speaker 3: what I want, you know, these are the people that
Speaker 3: I want to work with. These are this this is
Speaker 3: my staff, these are my coordinators, so on and so forth. Yeah,
Speaker 3: so all that is intriguing. Now we disagree a little
Speaker 3: bit on the direction in terms of Rabel and Ben Johnson,
Speaker 3: and I want to unpack that. We've been texting about
Speaker 3: it back and forth, trying to save it for the show.
Speaker 3: So I guess my biggest issue, and like you said,
Speaker 3: both of them have issues, have concerns, and that every
Speaker 3: there's no perfect candidate.
Speaker 2: They're all going to have concerns. So my biggest issue
Speaker 2: with Rabel is that I worry about the overall direction
Speaker 2: of the offense. I worry about Drake May's development because
Speaker 2: he is not coming in. Rabel is not coming in
Speaker 2: specifically to run the offense or call offensive place I
Speaker 2: hope not. Ben Johnson, on the other hand, might have
Speaker 2: some of the experience program building things that we can
Speaker 2: talk about in terms of his concerns, but what I'm
Speaker 2: definitely sure of is that he's going to run a
Speaker 2: damn good scheme, right, And so you have the model
Speaker 2: of Shanahan, McVeigh, Lafleur, O'Connell, McDaniel, Mike.
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, sure, if you want to go down the
Speaker 3: rabbit hole. But we can go down the rabbit hole
Speaker 3: on the culture side too, And for every Dan Campbell,
Speaker 3: there's Doug Peterson, right, So it goes both ways. My
Speaker 3: point being this, if you look at the teams that
Speaker 3: are winning Super Bowls and are competing for Super Bowls,
Speaker 3: a lot of those teams have the tight pants guy.
Speaker 3: It's just a fact, right, It just And I know
Speaker 3: Andy Reid is his own I'm not I'm not counting
Speaker 3: any Reid, but that's a big part of it. And
Speaker 3: a big part of it is Drake May. And what
Speaker 3: I worry about with Rabel. And you can make the
Speaker 3: argument that he just played this way because he had
Speaker 3: Derrick Henry and that was what fit them best. But
Speaker 3: I don't want to turn a Drake May into an
Speaker 3: under center, turn around hand the ball off in a
Speaker 3: two back set to the running back and then like
Speaker 3: every three plays, we're gonna call play action and get
Speaker 3: him on the move and make it let him throw
Speaker 3: it down the field. I want to build this offense
Speaker 3: around Drake May. I want him to be the engine
Speaker 3: of the offense, much like Josh Allen is the engine
Speaker 3: of the offense in Buffalo. And I worry about with
Speaker 3: Rabel that it's gonna be a little old school. And
Speaker 3: I'm not necessarily saying old school in terms of it's
Speaker 3: gonna be Belichickian.
Speaker 2: I'm just saying old school.
Speaker 3: That it's gonna be a run first offense, play good defense,
Speaker 3: be sound in all three phases, and we're gonna win
Speaker 3: Game seventeen to quarantine.
Speaker 2: I think that. I like, I get that, and I
Speaker 2: know I just said the Tennessee offense. Obviously, you're it's
Speaker 2: that overarching idea, but you're you're building that around Drake
Speaker 2: Man when he's better in Tannehill, so you have him
Speaker 2: do more things than Tannehill did. Of course, you have
Speaker 2: Drake May. You're gonna have your pick of your offensive coordinators. Right,
Speaker 2: what if you hire rabel So he was in Houston,
Speaker 2: he was in Tennessee, he was in Cleveland. Those were
Speaker 2: three different offensive systems. Essentially, it is some overlap between
Speaker 2: what he's doing in Tennessee and what he was doing
Speaker 2: in Cleveland, but there's differences there. I don't see him
Speaker 2: as a guy that's going to be married to one
Speaker 2: offensive system. I think he's going to do what he
Speaker 2: believes is best for the offense, what's best for Drake
Speaker 2: may like, I don't think he's married to we have
Speaker 2: to be this identity on offense because he's a defensive coach.
Speaker 3: Fair the question that you have for Abel when he
Speaker 3: sits down at the table, because I'm you're not worried
Speaker 3: about all the stuff that we just talked about for
Speaker 3: the first twenty minute.
Speaker 2: No, you're you're not worried. You're worried about the offensive coordinator.
Speaker 2: Which who's your coordinator?
Speaker 3: Higher and if it's Josh McDaniels, Okay, but how is
Speaker 3: Josh McDaniels going to bring that offense to the twenty.
Speaker 2: Well to me twenty twenty five? Which Josh McDaniel's offense,
Speaker 2: remember me? Like, is it the Brady offense? Or is
Speaker 2: it the Cam Newton offense?
Speaker 3: I mean the Cam Newton offense I think was done
Speaker 3: out of desperation, Like, I don't think that that's truly
Speaker 3: who Josh is.
Speaker 2: Like Josh Josh McDaniels is Brady mac Jones. Okay, what
Speaker 2: he tried to do in Vegas? But different was was there?
Speaker 2: Did we see Josh McDaniels could develop a run game
Speaker 2: for a quarterback? Yes? Or no?
Speaker 3: We did, But again I don't know. I don't think
Speaker 3: that's his preferred route, but he did it.
Speaker 2: He did it. That's and I wonder maybe that's part
Speaker 2: of it. Maybe if Rabel says, McDaniels, you talk to
Speaker 2: McDaniels and you said, all right, is this gonna be?
Speaker 2: You know, is it? Are we gonna try to turn
Speaker 2: Drake me and to Tom Brady or are we gonna
Speaker 2: have some of these other elements in here like you
Speaker 2: had with Cam Newton. You know another guy that's been
Speaker 2: floated as Tommy Reese, who I'm not a big fan of,
Speaker 2: but he's kind of done some more modern things. He
Speaker 2: was at Alabama with I think he was there with Bryce,
Speaker 2: he was there with Milroe. So he's done some of that.
Speaker 2: And this gets to kind of my other point about Rabel.
Speaker 2: And when you get to Rabel verus Ben Johnson again,
Speaker 2: I think are both good candidates. Right, Let's say you
Speaker 2: don't get it right with Rabel on the offensive coordinator higher,
Speaker 2: Let's say the first year isn't good. You can move
Speaker 2: on from the offensive coordinator. Let's say you hire Ben
Speaker 2: Jons and you find out in a year he can't
Speaker 2: do the program stuff. That's a much harder pivot to
Speaker 2: make so I do think Mike Vrabel can find the
Speaker 2: right offensive coordinator because he did it in Tennessee. He
Speaker 2: built a good program in Tennessee, and he was able
Speaker 2: to find not just one, not just one. But when
Speaker 2: Matt Laffler left, he was able to identify Arthur Smith
Speaker 2: and get to the next guy.
Speaker 3: But I pushed back a little bit on good offenses,
Speaker 3: Like he had a good offense in Tennessee that was
Speaker 3: not a super Bowl caliber offense.
Speaker 2: No, but they had Ryan Tannehill. Okay, Drake May, Okay,
Speaker 2: but I love Drake May. You know that. But he's
Speaker 2: still got a lot of developing he does.
Speaker 3: So that's that's going to be part of it, right
Speaker 3: And now you know we're talking about things about his
Speaker 3: Drake May's whole development in year two here, So let
Speaker 3: me ask you a year, you know, the footwork changes,
Speaker 3: what is he going to be? You know, his eighty
Speaker 3: five percent of the time he threw a pass from
Speaker 3: shotgun this year, that's not a very high percentage of
Speaker 3: under center. Is a coach that comes in like McDaniels
Speaker 3: are a West Coast coach that isn't Alex van pel
Speaker 3: gonna want to run it more?
Speaker 2: From under center.
Speaker 3: We know McDaniels is gonna want to come in and
Speaker 3: be under center, two back, full back in the backfield
Speaker 3: and ram it down people's throats.
Speaker 2: We know that that's the type of offense he's gonna
Speaker 2: want to run.
Speaker 3: And that's exactly what Rabel did in Tennessee. So that's aligned.
Speaker 3: So I just I just.
Speaker 2: Looked he was he was in Cleveland last year, he
Speaker 2: had experienced with a different offense. What if he calls
Speaker 2: a glec Josh McCown.
Speaker 3: Okay, So then the issue with Josh McCown is that
Speaker 3: he's already getting some buzz to be a head coach
Speaker 3: this cycle. So he comes here, he calls plays, he
Speaker 3: looks great doing it, and then you're looking for a
Speaker 3: new offensive coordinator in twenty So this is this is
Speaker 3: where the program builder element comes in. In one year, you're
Speaker 3: gonna build a pro. You're gonna get a coordinator ready
Speaker 3: to replace McCown in one year.
Speaker 2: He replaced Matt Lafleur in one year. It was longer
Speaker 2: than one year. Wasn't pretty sure it's just one year.
Speaker 2: I was looking before the show. Let me double check it.
Speaker 2: Just I think it was just one year. It feels
Speaker 2: to me like that it was just one year. He
Speaker 2: came in twenty eighteen with the flour Well flour left
Speaker 2: after the twenty eighteen season. It was Arthur Smith for
Speaker 2: two years. Okay, but what was the stealing of those offenses?
Speaker 2: Like REALI but those offenses had Ryan Tannehill.
Speaker 3: Okay, but we you keep saying that, like Ryan Tannehill
Speaker 3: was some bum in Tennessee.
Speaker 2: He's like bum in Miami.
Speaker 3: And Ryan Tannehill played really good football in Tennessee. If
Speaker 3: Drake May puts up Ryan tannehill numbers, then we got
Speaker 3: a superstar on our hands, because you're gonna look at
Speaker 3: him differently than you look at Ryan Tannehill. You look
Speaker 3: at Ryan Tannehill's box score stats in Tennessee's like thirty
Speaker 3: five to seven touchdown Interesting, he's.
Speaker 2: An MVP can one of those years. But that's my point,
Speaker 2: you look at We can't just assume that Jake May
Speaker 2: is gonna be gonna do that. He was my point.
Speaker 2: You can't do that with Ben Johnson either.
Speaker 3: But I have much better faith than Ben Johnson's scheming
Speaker 3: an offense, and so I just again, this is what happens.
Speaker 3: We know this is what happens. They're they're gonna continue
Speaker 3: to cycle through offensive coordinators. They've done it in Buffalo.
Speaker 2: I also like Buffalo is dealt with that too, And
Speaker 2: so here's Josh Allen got to the point where he
Speaker 2: was quarterback proved or see. So that's the other thing
Speaker 2: with the cycling through coordinators. I think people are maybe
Speaker 2: and I know I'm the guy that always talks about
Speaker 2: make it as easy as possible in the quarterback and
Speaker 2: I do still believe that, but specific specifically about a
Speaker 2: young quarterback, right the faith quack, so he is right now.
Speaker 2: But first off, on the account thing, Ben Johnson has
Speaker 2: been this this generational candidate, yet he was in Detroit
Speaker 2: for three years.
Speaker 3: Yeah, because he held his water like it's different, Like
Speaker 3: it's the same thing with Demiko Ryan.
Speaker 2: But I think that's what a lot of these guys
Speaker 2: are doing now. It slowly did it and it hurt him,
Speaker 2: but slowly did the same thing. So the idea that
Speaker 2: any offensive coordinator is going to be done one and
Speaker 2: done because of Drake Man is not a guaranteed okay
Speaker 2: years Okay, so you get two years with that coordinator. Again,
Speaker 2: this is faith in Vrabel's program. Yet you you ideally
Speaker 2: have the next guy in the pipeline, So two years,
Speaker 2: one coordinator, two years and next coordinator. Now Drake may
Speaker 2: has been in the league for six years. He should
Speaker 2: be able to handle it. At that point in the
Speaker 2: re is if your pipeline is strong enough, you're gonna
Speaker 2: continue to pull guys from your system where the offense
Speaker 2: isn't going to be changing a significant amount, if at all.
Speaker 2: So if you have that pipeline, you don't need to
Speaker 2: worry about losing guys because the system, the approach, the
Speaker 2: program is the same. You know, Evan, You know, I
Speaker 2: feel strongly about this if I'm willing to use Buffalo
Speaker 2: as an example in a positive light.
Speaker 3: But Buffalo Buffalo isn't. It goes both ways with Buffalo
Speaker 3: because they've You've.
Speaker 2: Wanted the Patriots to be the Bills for years. Rabel
Speaker 2: makes them.
Speaker 3: The Bills, but he but they fed it up at first.
Speaker 3: They hired Ken Dorsey and the Dorsey Hire in twenty three,
Speaker 3: which barely made it halfway through the season. They fired
Speaker 3: him in season and replaced him with Joe Brady, but
Speaker 3: at that point that basically cost them a run. But
Speaker 3: they cost them to run out of Super Bowl that year.
Speaker 2: But at that point, Josh Allen, who's to say that
Speaker 2: the same would half with Ben Johnson a defensive coordinator.
Speaker 2: The it happened in San Francisco this year, defense fell
Speaker 2: apart because who did they hire Brandon Staley for some reason? No,
Speaker 2: he was and even their defensive corn he had a
Speaker 2: role in that defense. Maybe not by title, but he
Speaker 2: had a role in that defense. Don't don't, don't move
Speaker 2: the goal busts by the time, by the time, well,
Speaker 2: those advisors are going to be important, We'll get to that.
Speaker 2: When you get to Ben Jonson's He's like there, Ben
Speaker 2: Mackett by the time, how that go. By the time
Speaker 2: that they made the door, see mistake, Allen had been
Speaker 2: in the league long enough and developed long enough that
Speaker 2: he survived it. And did it cost them a run, Yes,
Speaker 2: but they're gonna continue to have a chance to go
Speaker 2: on runs because of that talent.
Speaker 3: And now so now Joe Brady's gonna get a head
Speaker 3: coaching job, and they're gonna be replacing another.
Speaker 2: Quarterator and you hope that the program is strong enough
Speaker 2: to bring that next guy. So there's thing I think
Speaker 2: Rabel's better program building than Sean McDermott. That's why I
Speaker 2: keep thinking the Bills will fall off. To me, Vrabel's
Speaker 2: a better version of Sean McDermott, much better version of
Speaker 2: Sean McDermott. So if if you just get that first
Speaker 2: offensive coordinator right to me, and that's not an insignificant
Speaker 2: if I acknowledge it's a big if. But if you
Speaker 2: get that first offensive coordinator right, I think you're often running.
Speaker 2: If Rabel builds a program comparable the one he built
Speaker 2: in Tennessee, because I trust him to, because he you know,
Speaker 2: this is what we saw Bill do for years. I
Speaker 2: trust him to identify not just the offensive coordinator, but quarterbacks, coach, receiver,
Speaker 2: tight ends coach, offensive line coach, pass game coordinator, run
Speaker 2: game coordinator, whatever it is. Like I think they tried
Speaker 2: to do this year with Alexander Pelton T C McCartney.
Speaker 2: Like if Van Pelt, let's say this year had gone well,
Speaker 2: if Van Pelton got hired, away, it was all lined up.
Speaker 2: But Van Pelt was never gonna get hired. Like let's say, hey,
Speaker 2: he's twenty years into let's say he did. Then TC
Speaker 2: McCarty was lined up to be the next guy, and boom,
Speaker 2: it seamless. And to your point, van Pelt wasn't gonna
Speaker 2: get hired away. What if Vrabel finds that guy?
Speaker 3: But but van Pelt though, that's the point though, is
Speaker 3: that to me that would have been moving too quickly,
Speaker 3: right if Van Pelt got hired away after one season?
Speaker 3: TC McCarty was not ready to be the coordinator. And
Speaker 3: this is exactly what happened with Bill at the end.
Speaker 3: Was that really the gun there was no pipeline. No,
Speaker 3: that's not true. The pipeline was Achille. But Josh McDaniels
Speaker 3: took a job that Bill was not expecting him to take,
Speaker 3: and Nick Kelly was not ready.
Speaker 2: So I think the idea that it's gonna happen in
Speaker 2: one year, I'm not as confident that you lose the
Speaker 2: coordinator in one year. I'm just not I I don't
Speaker 2: think the ceiling for the offense is that high because
Speaker 2: of the personnel, and we all know that, like Josh
Speaker 2: McDaniel shouldn't have been hired at that point. I think
Speaker 2: that's kind of become clear now by the Raiders. So
Speaker 2: my bigger concern though, and well let me ask you
Speaker 2: this too, who's to say that Mike Vrabel can't find
Speaker 2: his Ben Johnson. Who is Ben Johnson? When Dan Campbell
Speaker 2: hired him.
Speaker 3: It's a hot commodity Ben So Ben Johnson? What makes
Speaker 3: him so appealing to me?
Speaker 2: Along with just the receivers coach in Miami?
Speaker 3: He I mean he coached every position in Miami. He's
Speaker 3: quarterbacks coach, wide receivers coach, tight end's coach, and then
Speaker 3: he went to Detroit coached tight ends there for a
Speaker 3: couple of years, which is the position to coach, by
Speaker 3: the way, in terms of because you're dealing with run
Speaker 3: and pass games. So if you're gonna be on the
Speaker 3: coordinator track, a lot of those coordinators McVeigh. Those guys,
Speaker 3: they start as tight ends coaches and then they work
Speaker 3: their way up to coordinator. We know, in my opinion,
Speaker 3: I kind of am worried that Mike Rabel is gonna
Speaker 3: have a ceiling. I think Mike Rabel's gonna get you
Speaker 3: to a really nice floor. Yeah, and you're gonna get
Speaker 3: You're gonna hire him. He's gonna bring respectability, he's gonna
Speaker 3: bring professionalism, he's gonna bring accountability. He's gonna be a
Speaker 3: very very good CEO coach and a culture builder and
Speaker 3: all the program stuff and all that's all well and good,
Speaker 3: but I believe that that's going to have a ceiling
Speaker 3: long term.
Speaker 2: Well, but isn't that what Drake mays for to then
Speaker 2: get you to that next level? Isn't that the ing
Speaker 2: the superstar quarterback if they let him. I think Rabel
Speaker 2: understands the modern game enough to do that.
Speaker 3: So I am concerned that the Mike, that's a nine
Speaker 3: or ten win ceiling, which is not to.
Speaker 2: Say if you're gonna say as a Niner ceiling, no, no,
Speaker 2: you want it nine or ten win season. And I
Speaker 2: hired that. I won twelve games in Tennessee. Yeah, it
Speaker 2: was such a that was like there was all sorts
Speaker 2: of sun. No, no, he won twelve. The AFC was
Speaker 2: weak that year and he all he won it. And
Speaker 2: Brady's last year with the Patriots, he flamed. He won
Speaker 2: twelve games in Tennessee.
Speaker 3: Okay, he won twelve games one year in his six
Speaker 3: seasons in Tennessee. Was throw him a parade, like do
Speaker 3: you you have to there's there a ceiling to it. Yes,
Speaker 3: there's a ceiling to it. That's where you showed that
Speaker 3: in Tennessee. Okay, But if you got higher. You are
Speaker 3: not taking any risks with Rabel. You know what you're getting.
Speaker 3: It's a floor higher, and in my opinion, I think
Speaker 3: you're going to be a really solid football program. I
Speaker 3: don't know what your ceiling is with Mike Rabel, With
Speaker 3: Ben Johnson, you run the risk of it flaming out.
Speaker 3: You run the risk of it being a disaster. I
Speaker 3: acknowledge that. But the upside is Shanahan, McVeigh, O'Connell. It's
Speaker 3: super Bowl team. That's the upside.
Speaker 2: I don't see why the upside keep with the personnel.
Speaker 2: So I think coaching sets the floor. Talent sets the ceiling. Right,
Speaker 2: So this is where we get in to the elliot
Speaker 2: wolf of it all. And I said earlier like I
Speaker 2: want to know who has final say And that's the
Speaker 2: other part of this. Who's either one bringing as their
Speaker 2: GM or whatever it is. It's not gonna be a
Speaker 2: GM because they just don't have gms here, But like,
Speaker 2: who has that? We did this last year. I don't
Speaker 2: care what the title is. Six people in the room.
Speaker 2: Three want Abdul Carter, three want Will Campbell. Who gets
Speaker 2: to put their fist on the table and say my
Speaker 2: vote counts is too we're getting my guy right. That's
Speaker 2: that's the other unknown here. So I have a thought
Speaker 2: on that, but sorry, and it's it's gonna be different
Speaker 2: with Rabel or Johnson. If, like Rabel says in the meeting,
Speaker 2: I want John Robbinson, I say the guy that traded
Speaker 2: aj Brown, and then I call Ben Johnson, right, So
Speaker 2: like there's that element to it. But I think talent
Speaker 2: sets the ceiling, and they just need to get the
Speaker 2: things you said respectable, professional, accountable. They need to get
Speaker 2: back to that they cannot afford to not get back.
Speaker 2: They also need to score points, which they haven't done
Speaker 2: in four years. So Drake may can't help them score
Speaker 2: for the course, but it shouldn't be all on the
Speaker 2: second year quarterback to help them score points. No, that's
Speaker 2: that's where the personnel guy comes. You're not gonna gotta
Speaker 2: get that guy help.
Speaker 3: So now it's all on the talent. Like if yes,
Speaker 3: they're not going I said this, they're not gonna win
Speaker 3: like that. You're not gonna win with twenty points a game.
Speaker 2: I said this before they I've been saying this since Ocatobe.
Speaker 2: I think I've been saying it since start of the year.
Speaker 2: Were there coaching issues this year? Yes, absolutely, moving on
Speaker 2: for May it was necessary. But if we were to
Speaker 2: list the biggest issues facing the twenty twenty three Patriots,
Speaker 2: twenty twenty four Patriots, and twenty twenty three twenty twenty
Speaker 2: four Patriots, at the top of that list was roster talent.
Speaker 2: So that has to improve. And I I think Ben
Speaker 2: Johnson comes in and just spins his wheels like and
Speaker 2: just just focus on the offense and the scheme. And
Speaker 2: so many of these guys think the schemes above the talent, right.
Speaker 2: We know essentially that your guy, Kyle Shanahan feels that way.
Speaker 3: So here's a difference between these two candidates. The biggest
Speaker 3: difference between these two candidates with Mike Rabel. If the
Speaker 3: Patriots hire Mike Rabel, I'm giving the keys to Rabel.
Speaker 3: It's Rabel's shows when it comes to final say on
Speaker 3: the roster. I'm not necessarily giving him all the personnel power.
Speaker 3: I still want him working in conjunction with a general manager.
Speaker 2: I would want an experienced front office executive. Who's your
Speaker 2: guy from New York that you like Ryan Cowden. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I'd still like somebody who's been in front office it
Speaker 2: because Rabel's never negotiated a contract, right, So like, I
Speaker 2: still want a guy like that, but I'm I'm okay
Speaker 2: if Mike Rabel's final say, I'm not giving Ben Johnson.
Speaker 3: So this is the difference in the higher right. The
Speaker 3: difference is that Rabel is coming here to run the program.
Speaker 2: Yes, it is his ship. He's he's the all encompassing guy. Right.
Speaker 3: If I'm hiring Ben Johnson, I'm hiring Ben Johnson for
Speaker 3: two main reasons, to run Drake may like it's his
Speaker 3: develo and call offensive plays.
Speaker 2: I'm gonna hire two things that other people can do
Speaker 2: with Mike Rabel's the head coach, not as well. And
Speaker 2: so then you don't know what's to say. He can't
Speaker 2: find Ben Jonson.
Speaker 3: Know that you do know that, you know he's not
Speaker 3: gonna be as good as Ben Johnson. Ben Johnson has
Speaker 3: literally been the top candidate for two straight stycles because
Speaker 3: of this, Okay, or he fights all these Guyshan McVeigh, Lafleur, O'Connell,
Speaker 3: Brady's shortly, Ben Johnson shortly. What do they all have
Speaker 3: in common? They're head coaches. They're going to be head coaches.
Speaker 3: So unless you're gonna tell me that Mike Rabel has
Speaker 3: some secret diamond in the rough.
Speaker 2: Tommy Reese is going to be the new You just
Speaker 2: named a bunch of guys like it seems like the
Speaker 2: NFL coaching machine factory is churning out tight pants, khaki guys.
Speaker 2: Go find your so, go find a random one.
Speaker 3: Well, you just named like ten guys. Okay, Well give
Speaker 3: me a better, give me a dang good name. And
Speaker 3: I don't want it to be Josh McDaniels. I'm sorry.
Speaker 3: I love Josh McDaniels. I love the guy. I think
Speaker 3: he's a good coach. I don't want it to be him.
Speaker 3: It needs to be somebody that's going to bring this
Speaker 3: offense to the modern era. It's got to be somebody
Speaker 3: that's gonna run something that's innovative. It's got to be
Speaker 3: something that's gonna run somebody, something that's gonna put defenses
Speaker 3: in cone that are gonna leverage Drake.
Speaker 2: So I don't want to overload Drake May with the
Speaker 2: Josh McDaniels offense, But you want to drop him into
Speaker 2: one of these complex schemes. How is it complex? He's
Speaker 2: running RPOs. You're talking about the innovative.
Speaker 3: And that's not complex that none of these kids have
Speaker 3: been doing that since high school. Nowadays, you have high
Speaker 3: school offenses that are running these types of things, like
Speaker 3: he was running this at Myers Park, like you know,
Speaker 3: with the coaches down there at North Carolina. He's running
Speaker 3: this at UNC with their air raids. You know, I
Speaker 3: know they hate when I call it an air raid,
Speaker 3: but it's an air raid.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 3: You know they've been running it down at North Carolina.
Speaker 3: This is what they run nowadays. They don't run an
Speaker 3: old school Earnhard Perkins offense like the Patriots used to
Speaker 3: run twenty years ago. These are the offenses that these
Speaker 3: young quarterbacks are growing up running, you know, so like
Speaker 3: it's not complex to them to read out an RPO
Speaker 3: or a read option play or to send a guy
Speaker 3: in motion, Like these things aren't complex to these kids anymore.
Speaker 2: This is what they've been doing their whole football lives.
Speaker 3: What is complex to them is we're gonna put you
Speaker 3: under center, We're gonna drop you back seven step drop
Speaker 3: play action, fake turn, back around, make a throw. I
Speaker 3: know that sounds rudimentary to a lot of people that
Speaker 3: have been watching and you know, covering football, and you know,
Speaker 3: observing football for fifty years, to these kids, it's not
Speaker 3: they don't do it. They don't go under center, they
Speaker 3: don't shotgun, they don't play action pass from under center.
Speaker 3: They don't run seven and nine steps.
Speaker 2: So if this is what everybody's running, how hard is
Speaker 2: it to find somebody who runs it as a coach?
Speaker 3: Harder than you think, because you have to It has
Speaker 3: to be the right guy, and the right guy meaning
Speaker 3: what he has to be a good coach, It has
Speaker 3: to be the right guy is not going to be rable,
Speaker 3: So they have to find the right guy to put
Speaker 3: in that position. And with Ben Johnson, what I would
Speaker 3: do is that at that point you definitely need to
Speaker 3: hire a true general manager because he you want the
Speaker 3: general manager to do all of the program building. I'm
Speaker 3: putting it on the general manager.
Speaker 2: I still think you need somebody on the coaching staff
Speaker 2: who can do that too. So you gave me Sean McVay,
Speaker 2: who had Wade Phillips. He has talked about being able
Speaker 2: to help. So you're gonna ask me who Mike Rabel's
Speaker 2: coordinator is. Who is Ben Johnson's Wade Phillips. I'm gonna
Speaker 2: give you two names I don't want to hear. One
Speaker 2: is Luayna Roma. Why not because he's never been a
Speaker 2: head coach. He's never run Okay, that's the whole point
Speaker 2: of having this guy. He was literally very close to
Speaker 2: being a head coach. He's very close, very nice, he's
Speaker 2: a big Wade Phillips Phillips, very close to being a
Speaker 2: head coach or he's been a head coach for like
Speaker 2: a decade. The other name I don't want to hear
Speaker 2: is Robert Sala because, just like we're talking about but
Speaker 2: just to talk to the viewers, just like we're talking
Speaker 2: about building this thing around Drake May on offense, I
Speaker 2: also think you kind of need to do the same
Speaker 2: thing on defense with Christian Gonzalez. I have zero interest
Speaker 2: in turning Christian Gonzalez into Sauce Gardner. That's an insult
Speaker 2: to Christian Gonzales. I want them running man coverages. I
Speaker 2: don't want them doing Seattle three. I want them running
Speaker 2: a big boy defense. And like, is that unfair to say,
Speaker 2: like they should be treating all the conversations around right
Speaker 2: now around Drake May, build it around him, develop him.
Speaker 2: Shouldn't we also be saying the same about Gonzales on defense. Yeah,
Speaker 2: so that's why I'm out on solid all right, So
Speaker 2: no saw I.
Speaker 3: Was Also, he's even getting a head coaching job in
Speaker 3: second or he's going to San Francisco so be their
Speaker 3: defensive coordinator.
Speaker 2: There's no Sela is not coming here. So I want
Speaker 2: a guy who has been a head coach before, who
Speaker 2: has been around this league for a long time. Who
Speaker 2: is because this is what we don't know. Can Ben
Speaker 2: Johnson set up his own program. He's doing none of
Speaker 2: that in Detroit that is filled in spades. It is
Speaker 2: filled in then some by Dan Campbell.
Speaker 3: And Dan Campbell's not calling plays or designing the offense.
Speaker 3: I'm not the number one seed in the NFC.
Speaker 2: That's not entirely his seventh ranked defense in the league,
Speaker 2: and boy, those guys are bought in and.
Speaker 3: The seventh drank defense in the league. Their defense is
Speaker 3: completely falling apart since all the injuries came apart.
Speaker 2: And so there's scoring.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but they're scoring forty points a game to keep
Speaker 3: winning football games.
Speaker 2: And there's guys bought in and it's been sustainable and
Speaker 2: they didn't just do this for.
Speaker 4: What, So.
Speaker 2: Zero credit for that.
Speaker 3: He gets zero credit for the fact that that offense
Speaker 3: is dynamite and they clearly have taken a team Ryan
Speaker 3: Tannehill quarterback ask Jared Goff and has turned him into
Speaker 3: an MVP candidate. And he gets zero credit for that
Speaker 3: because I am not giving any of that credit to
Speaker 3: Dan Campbell. Because Dan Campbell's doing Jack Squad, He's talking
Speaker 3: about knee caps and you know, crying after games. That's
Speaker 3: what Dan Campbell's doing. Ben Johnson is the one that's
Speaker 3: does designing the offense. He's the one that's calling the plays.
Speaker 3: He's the one that's doing things that people have never
Speaker 3: seen before executed at this level as high of a
Speaker 3: level as that what they are doing, like they're running
Speaker 3: hooking ladders for crying out out for forty yard touchdowns,
Speaker 3: like you don't see that every single day. So he's
Speaker 3: the one that's doing all these types of things. So,
Speaker 3: but you're not giving him any credit for the confidence
Speaker 3: and the energy that that offense plays with none.
Speaker 2: Not Like the confidence energy the offense is different than
Speaker 2: building a program. So I flip it back to you,
Speaker 2: Mike Rabel when he was in Tennessee before they screwed
Speaker 2: up and traded AJ Brown.
Speaker 3: Oh okay, so aj Brown did completely tanked the entire ten. Yeah,
Speaker 3: oh my god, tenth tank That program is Ryan Tannehill age.
Speaker 2: They had a top five offense in the league. So
Speaker 2: rabel isn't get credit for a top five offense in
Speaker 2: the league, then I'm fine if he doesn't, But then
Speaker 2: Ben Johnson doesn't get it's an unknown. It's an unknown
Speaker 2: with Ben Johnson. The culture element, the program building element
Speaker 2: is an unknown. He's never had to hire coaches. He's
Speaker 2: never had to like schedule out a full game week.
Speaker 2: He's never had to truly like, yes he does the
Speaker 2: offensive game game, but you've never done that big picture.
Speaker 2: You're saying this like he's drowed Mayo and he's not
Speaker 2: draft Mayo. He's been assistant coach for fourteen years, he's
Speaker 2: been a coordinator for three years. Different because I've been
Speaker 2: But you're saying this like he had and I Rob
Speaker 2: McDaniels was a coach for a long time.
Speaker 3: Yes, Josh mcdaniels's issue as a head coach wasn't what
Speaker 3: you're talking about. Josh mcdaniels's issue with this absolutely was
Speaker 3: his personality. His issue as a head coach was not
Speaker 3: what you're getting at which is the things like you know,
Speaker 3: programmed saying.
Speaker 2: How do you operate within the building day to day
Speaker 2: on a person on a personal person basis, Right, that's
Speaker 2: the That was mcdaniels's problem. That was also from by reports,
Speaker 2: And I don't know if this is true, but by
Speaker 2: reports that was Brian flora is his problem in Miami.
Speaker 2: Took just one player, but it.
Speaker 3: Was personality, right he I think Ryan Fitzpatrick used the
Speaker 3: word that Brian Flores became a dictator that in Miami.
Speaker 2: I'm not so no, that's the okay, we have no
Speaker 2: clue and Flora's has been a coach for a long
Speaker 2: time and there was no indication that players here loved him,
Speaker 2: loved him. There's no We have no idea what Ben
Speaker 2: Johnson could step in and be a dictator. Ben Johnson
Speaker 2: could step in and have no control of the rope.
Speaker 2: Ben Johnson could step in and be the greatest leader
Speaker 2: of all time. We don't know. There's no way to know.
Speaker 2: And after a year of complete uncertainty in terms of
Speaker 2: the direction of the program, to hand it over to
Speaker 2: a guy who is an unknown in that regard to me,
Speaker 2: I'm not saying it's not a risk Worth. It's it's
Speaker 2: not entirely never called the defense. It's not it's not
Speaker 2: red delicious to Red Delicious, but maybe it's red delicious
Speaker 2: to Granny. We're still the apple. No, it's not.
Speaker 3: You're not still in the apple family. You're you're in
Speaker 3: a different fruit like I don't think so. His experience
Speaker 3: pales in comparison to Mayo's. Not only was he an
Speaker 3: assistant coach, he did it the right way. He was
Speaker 3: an assistant coach for ten years. Then he became a coordinator.
Speaker 3: Then he called his own offense, Then he designed his
Speaker 3: own offense, then he game planned his own offense. He
Speaker 3: did all of those different things. And I'm with you.
Speaker 3: If they hire Ben Johnson, they have to hire a
Speaker 3: defensive coordinator who is experienced, who has run the side
Speaker 3: of the football, Patrick Grant.
Speaker 2: But he's not just a guy that's but it's not
Speaker 2: just a guy that's running defense. You who is he
Speaker 2: going to? Why can't you this morning? Why can't he
Speaker 2: hire an associate head coach? Why who? Okay, who probably
Speaker 2: Joe Philben great Joe fill We're put in the organization's
Speaker 2: faith in Joe Philbin.
Speaker 3: No, you're putting the organization's fate in Ben Johnson, like
Speaker 3: you're talking about a guy that's saying how much how
Speaker 3: much a sounding board as someone that can you know,
Speaker 3: give him ideas or in.
Speaker 2: How much of an from Ben mcadu's Joe Filden, because
Speaker 2: that's what Ben mackett they The guy we're describing is
Speaker 2: what Ben McNew I think was supposed to be this year.
Speaker 2: Knew that wasn't enough.
Speaker 3: But Ben mcado also specifically specialized on doing it on offense,
Speaker 3: like he was a senior offensive assistant. I am talking
Speaker 3: about hiring someone you know has done it before. That's
Speaker 3: a true you know.
Speaker 2: So why not hire that guy to be the head
Speaker 2: coach and then the have that guy find the guy
Speaker 2: who can call plays and design plays. Because if you
Speaker 2: get the head coach higher wrong, you you're really in it. Now.
Speaker 2: If you get the offense because you're higher wrong, that's
Speaker 2: not great, but it's easier to change the great.
Speaker 3: You're really under selling that. It's not great. He's gonna
Speaker 3: completely mess up drake man.
Speaker 2: Okay. As opposed to getting the head coaching higher wrong,
Speaker 2: how is that getting the head coaching higher If the
Speaker 2: guy can't establish it, I'll give you Mike McDaniel. Players
Speaker 2: are asking out of Miami left and right, and they
Speaker 2: they do win some games. He's what three and fifteen
Speaker 2: against teams over five hundred. They haven't won a serious
Speaker 2: big boy game as long as he's been there. That's
Speaker 2: different to me. How is that this is the same
Speaker 2: guy because they Mike McDaid with Ben Johnson three years ago.
Speaker 3: It's because I don't think Miami's built their team correctly.
Speaker 3: Miami has built their team from the outside in. I
Speaker 3: want to build the team from the inside out.
Speaker 2: To be okay with that. Yet, what do you kind
Speaker 2: of line do you thinking of? Because Detroit the offensive
Speaker 2: what do you mean he didn't build that. Chris Bielman
Speaker 2: built that. They want the receivers and they want the
Speaker 2: toy They're ridiculous. Why do you think that he knows
Speaker 2: why they're successful? So I'm sorry not having a line
Speaker 2: and their line is not that bad, and their defensive
Speaker 2: line is great. Not having a line is Miami?
Speaker 5: No?
Speaker 6: Come on?
Speaker 2: Their defensive line is not dead gas rush man. They
Speaker 2: can get after the quarterback.
Speaker 3: But every single time they get into a tough game
Speaker 3: against your playoff caliber opponents, they get run on every
Speaker 3: single time. They can't play in cold weather, they can't block,
Speaker 3: they get the quarterback hurt.
Speaker 2: All that being able to That's why they're gonnat this take.
Speaker 2: But I know I'm right. Not being able to play
Speaker 2: in cold weather is in part a reflection on the coach.
Speaker 2: Him doing that ridiculous stuff about wearing the turning the
Speaker 2: temperature down in the bubble and wearing the long sleeve
Speaker 2: shirt and say he's got throw ice cubes at people.
Speaker 2: That's reflection the coach. That's a soft team. They can't go,
Speaker 2: that's a soft team. That's a soft team. That is
Speaker 2: a reflect the coach.
Speaker 3: And if Ben Johnson has learned from Dan Campbell, who
Speaker 3: he's currently under, so I have to assume that is
Speaker 3: who he is learning from. You are telling me that
Speaker 3: the Detroit Lions are a soft football. They're gonna mimic
Speaker 3: that he's gonna be Mike McDaniel.
Speaker 2: That's what I'm asking in the interview. How much of
Speaker 2: Dan Campbell's leadership style do you plan to emulate? But
Speaker 2: it's not even just that can he pull it off?
Speaker 2: There were a lot of guys here that went elsewhere
Speaker 2: and tried to emulate Bill Belichick, but they weren't, Bill Belichick.
Speaker 2: You can't fake the The one thing he's not gonna
Speaker 2: do is faking peronality. He's not gonna fake Dan Campbell's
Speaker 2: person Okay, but that's part of where that buy in.
Speaker 2: That's part of where that toughness comes from. No, the toughness. Also,
Speaker 2: you can't just having Penny Sewell. You can't just ask
Speaker 2: him to come here and bring all the best parts
Speaker 2: of Dan Campbell with him and leave all the parts
Speaker 2: you don't like behind. I don't like any of the
Speaker 2: parts of Dan Campbell. That's the problem. Like I don't care,
Speaker 2: I don't need but if that's his but please don't
Speaker 2: bring Dan camp But you acknowledge it to beginning, the
Speaker 2: program building and the leadership is an important part of it.
Speaker 2: So you're hiring this guy to come build a program,
Speaker 2: and your argument is he's seen this great program build
Speaker 2: under Dan Campbell. If you don't want him to be
Speaker 2: anything like Dan Campbell, then what's the point.
Speaker 3: Because I don't nonnowance between actually executing the plan and
Speaker 3: checking the boxes of what we're talking about from the
Speaker 3: program side of it and personality. I just don't want
Speaker 3: his personality to be like Dan Campbell. I don't care
Speaker 3: if he's he can still do the other stuff without
Speaker 3: being Dan Campbell like that, that's very doable. You don't
Speaker 3: have to have his personality.
Speaker 2: But his personality matters. Again, I go back to to
Speaker 2: to Mike McDaniel, like I don't.
Speaker 3: So you you picked Mike McDaniel, who is probably like
Speaker 3: the worst one out of all this the Shanahan Tree.
Speaker 2: Group, there's one and there he's stuck around.
Speaker 3: Okay, but there's there's other ones that are are excelling.
Speaker 3: But we just have to point to the one guy
Speaker 3: that isn't Like I just you can look at you
Speaker 3: can look at the Dan Campbell's of the world, the
Speaker 3: big time culture builders of the world, and there's plenty
Speaker 3: of guys in Dan Campbell.
Speaker 2: I would say the guy of the Mike Rabel mold
Speaker 2: that is having the least success that we talked about
Speaker 2: as Sean McDermott. And you've wanted the Patriots to be
Speaker 2: the Bills for years now. See I I look at
Speaker 2: the Bills as the apex of what they could be
Speaker 2: with Mike Rabel and no, the Lions are the apex
Speaker 2: of what they could be with Mike Rable.
Speaker 3: No, I disagree. I think the Bills are because the
Speaker 3: Lions are not built. Their offense is not being elevated
Speaker 3: by their quarterback. There are their their scheme in their
Speaker 3: entire thing is elevator.
Speaker 2: So what happens if you put a really good quarterback
Speaker 2: in that scheme?
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. You take Ben Johnson,
Speaker 3: you bring him here, you put Drake.
Speaker 2: Man, Team Rabel, find an offensive coordinator that has some
Speaker 2: sort of you think they're just done with offensive coordinators.
Speaker 2: There's no more innovative offensive coordinators. There's like, if you
Speaker 2: don't get Ben Johnson, you'll never get an innovator. Ever. Again,
Speaker 2: I think it's possible. You don't try this all. It's
Speaker 2: not how the NFL works. I just haven't heard the name.
Speaker 2: It's not Tommy Rees. I'm sorry you you haven't right. Well,
Speaker 2: the guy for Ben Johnson's not Joe Philbin. I'm sorry, Okay,
Speaker 2: Well I was. That was one name that connected to
Speaker 2: Joe Philbin. They were. Reality is the guys you're looking
Speaker 2: at for rape the guys the guy you're looking at
Speaker 2: to support Ben Johnson needs to be one of those
Speaker 2: household name kind of guys. Because you need a guy
Speaker 2: that he's not just taking over any NFL team. He's
Speaker 2: taking over the New England Patriots. There's a spotlight here,
Speaker 2: there's a pressure here. You're only getting in a few
Speaker 2: other spots. It's not Detroit's in the spotlight. But that's different.
Speaker 2: That team was bad for a long time. The expectations
Speaker 2: he's gonna have to manage her different. You need a
Speaker 2: guy who's been through the ringer, who's been in front
Speaker 2: of one hundred campers, who's been pressed with the tough
Speaker 2: questions to lead him through that. When we talk about
Speaker 2: the guy to support Mike Rabel, we're talking about a
Speaker 2: guy who's a tight ends coach somewhere right now, or
Speaker 2: an offensive line coach, or an assistant this or an
Speaker 2: assistant that is not a household name kind of guy
Speaker 2: that doesn't necessarily make one better or worse, but one
Speaker 2: name should be easier to pull off top of your head,
Speaker 2: and in the other I think.
Speaker 3: It's easier to find than Ben Johnson guy, because the
Speaker 3: Ben Johnson guy is all those types of guys are.
Speaker 3: Let's face it, they failed as head coaches in the
Speaker 3: league and are now just consulting or aiding with guys.
Speaker 2: There's plenty of those.
Speaker 3: There's plenty of coaches that have gotten fired or that aren't,
Speaker 3: you know, directly coaching right now for whatever reason.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I just I hear you. There's probably a Joe
Speaker 2: Brady or someone along those lines that's out there, and
Speaker 2: we are the problems NFL guys. We didn't even go
Speaker 2: to college. Okay.
Speaker 3: But the problem is is that to me, is that
Speaker 3: Drake Mayson a different part of his development than Josh Allen.
Speaker 3: Was Josh Allen when Brian Dable left, was already three
Speaker 3: four years into his development. We're talking about Drake going
Speaker 3: into year two of his development. So your concerns about
Speaker 3: Ben Johnson being inexperienced from the culture side and from
Speaker 3: the team building side, my concern is that the coordinator
Speaker 3: is going to be inexperienced or he's going to be
Speaker 3: a retread, which I have no desire to do.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 3: So if you hire a college coordinator, or you hire
Speaker 3: a thirty five year old Joe Brady who has really
Speaker 3: never called plays before, never ran offense, he is now
Speaker 3: gonna be paired with a second year quarterback and now
Speaker 3: we're inexperienced. Right, Both quarterback and OC are inexperience.
Speaker 2: It's the quarterback and the coach are inexperienced if it's
Speaker 2: Ben Johnson. But Ben Jones is not inexperienced with calling
Speaker 2: the offense. But there's so much more to it than
Speaker 2: calling the offense. There's so so, so much more. It's
Speaker 2: not the same.
Speaker 3: And why can't we properly support Ben Johnson this time around?
Speaker 3: Why can't we get with with the legitimate front office executive,
Speaker 3: Ray Agnew, who's been around. Okay, Ray Agnew is your
Speaker 3: general manager, which I think is where this is trending
Speaker 3: for Ben Johnson. And you bring in somebody like a
Speaker 3: Joe Philbin who has coached in the league before. I know,
Speaker 3: Joe Philbin isn't the Super Bowl winning coach. If he was,
Speaker 3: he would probably still be a head coach and still
Speaker 3: be Okay. I mean, look, I Wade Phillips is a
Speaker 3: great coach. I think Lou Anamo and Patrick grahmm are too.
Speaker 3: Great defensive coordinator candidate.
Speaker 2: But it's not just about managing the defense. To me, though,
Speaker 2: it is.
Speaker 3: All I want is for him to hire That was
Speaker 3: Draw's mistake. He hired inexperience all over his staff. Grod
Speaker 3: Mayo needed experienced coordinators and not Alex fmpeld had the
Speaker 3: years of service, but it never call plays. I think
Speaker 3: if lou Ana Arrumo comes here with Ben Johnson, lou
Speaker 3: Ana Arumo has been calling a defense for half a decade.
Speaker 3: Now he's going to be head coach defense. He's going
Speaker 3: to have that under wraps. He's not calling plays for
Speaker 3: the first time. He's not DeMarcus Covington in his backyard
Speaker 3: simulating games in the springtime. He's done done it before,
Speaker 3: and he's he's all set. Ben Johnson's got the offense, big,
Speaker 3: who's got the defense?
Speaker 2: That's it? Like, I don't understand where where you're like say, inexperience.
Speaker 2: It's not a bad the day to day Who in
Speaker 2: that building has run an organization day to day? Agnew Hassen.
Speaker 3: So then why does any other then why does any
Speaker 3: other team hire our first time head coach? Like if if,
Speaker 3: if it never works with Kyle Shanahan or Sean McVay,
Speaker 3: who was like thirty three when he got the Giants.
Speaker 2: Can be done the right way. I think there is
Speaker 2: a right way to do that. There is a right
Speaker 2: time in place to do that. McVeigh made a lot
Speaker 2: of sense that kind of had some pieces in place already.
Speaker 2: They brought in They brought in Wade Phillips. I think
Speaker 2: some of these other teams they had a strong culture
Speaker 2: in place, right If it had so, I was I
Speaker 2: last year would have made more sense than this year
Speaker 2: because the Belichick culture was in place and you had
Speaker 2: those leaders in the locker room and you had those guys.
Speaker 2: It would have made more sense because you kind of
Speaker 2: hope Ben Johnson piggybacks off of that. Now you need
Speaker 2: a full in total reset, and so I think you
Speaker 2: want somebody who has proven in the past that they
Speaker 2: can get that out of an organization. Why do you
Speaker 2: want to ruin my fun because it's not what it's about.
Speaker 2: It's not about you having fun watching film on Monday
Speaker 2: with your pants off. It's about getting back to a
Speaker 2: super Bowl.
Speaker 3: Because scoring thirty a game with Ben Johnson isn't going
Speaker 3: to get them back to a super Bowl.
Speaker 2: Wats a team in the league score thirty game, don't
Speaker 2: get to Super Bowl? Okay, well, lots of team only one,
Speaker 2: only one game, and it doesn't matter exactly. We take
Speaker 2: if you score thirty game for one year, but the
Speaker 2: culture sucks and everybody wants out and you have to
Speaker 2: blow the whole thing.
Speaker 3: Come on, there's a scare thirty plus a game with
Speaker 3: the culture sucking that doesn't happen.
Speaker 2: That doesn't happen. How many points of games Miami scoring
Speaker 2: here hurt when two has been in? How many points
Speaker 2: of games Miami is Miami been scoring? They score a
Speaker 2: lot of points. I just I'm not all soft to
Speaker 2: go back to the top. That's because the coach to
Speaker 2: go back to the top. Yes, I don't think you
Speaker 2: want I don't think this is I don't think Ben
Speaker 2: Johnson's a bad higher. I don't think Ben Johnson's bad
Speaker 2: higher said, it's such a top take. You want your
Speaker 2: your hard nosed football guy.
Speaker 3: If you see Mike Rabel and training can't put on
Speaker 3: the pads and get into the trenches and rush the passer.
Speaker 2: On the sky. I don't want the coach too.
Speaker 3: You want him to say and his introductory press conference
Speaker 3: that we're gonna start biting knee caps and.
Speaker 2: No, because I don't want him to be a fake Dan.
Speaker 2: I wanted to go up. Yes, I'll say I wouldn't
Speaker 2: say we're gonna be a tough, physical football team. We're
Speaker 2: gonna be accountable. There's gonna be leadership, and we're gonna
Speaker 2: build this thing back up the right way. That's what
Speaker 2: I want to see. You shortcuts, no shortcuts. If they win,
Speaker 2: if they win every game twenty eight to seventeen, great,
Speaker 2: that's awesome because they're winning the games. I don't care
Speaker 2: about style points. Nobody should care about style points. You
Speaker 2: covered a Bill Belichick team. You watched a Bill Belichick
Speaker 2: team for your entire care stop points on defense as
Speaker 2: much a they had him on offense. Don't you forget
Speaker 2: you can get style points on defense too. Here's my
Speaker 2: point I think you are. Here's I think you are.
Speaker 2: Here's my point. I don't think Ben Johnson would be
Speaker 2: a bad higher because he is what's best for Drake May.
Speaker 2: Is he what's best for the entire organization. I don't
Speaker 2: nobody's what's best for Drake May. But if you hire
Speaker 2: Ben Johnson, yes, you have not answered the most pressing
Speaker 2: questions of the girod Mayo era. Those are still unknowns.
Speaker 2: Maybe they get better under Ben Johnson, but they are
Speaker 2: still unknowns. A better coordinator than You're not hiring him
Speaker 2: to be a coordinator a coordinator, hiring him to be
Speaker 2: a co and I'm hiring him to ride to the
Speaker 2: football team game. Hey, buck stops with him. He is
Speaker 2: the boss.
Speaker 3: So Kyle Shannan's a shitty head coach, is what you're saying.
Speaker 3: Sean McVay is not a good head coach. Kevin O'Connell's
Speaker 3: I think Sean McVay, none of these guys. Matt Lafour
Speaker 3: is not a good h so, okay, hang on, none
Speaker 3: of these guys figured it out.
Speaker 2: I've said for a long time, I think Kyle Shanahan's overrated.
Speaker 2: I've said that. I'm on the record with that. I
Speaker 2: will stand by that in the Super Bowl every other
Speaker 2: who else did you say there before McVeigh Because I'll
Speaker 2: give you my take on I like O'Connor. Let's see
Speaker 2: what he can do. I think it helps that he
Speaker 2: is Brian Flores. O'Connell might be a culture builder. O'Connell
Speaker 2: might not. I don't know whether he is or not.
Speaker 2: I just don't think taking that risk right now is
Speaker 2: the best option with Mike Rabel available on Sean McVay.
Speaker 2: A couple of things. Sean McVay is the unicorn in
Speaker 2: my opinion, right is Sean McVay the ceilingers he the
Speaker 2: exception of the rule. I think he might be the
Speaker 2: exception of the rule. In expecting Ben Johnson to be
Speaker 2: Sean McVay might be fools Erron. Why is Sean McVay
Speaker 2: the exception of the rule? Wise he had the successity
Speaker 2: out one. I think his time with Wade Phillips was
Speaker 2: very important, and that was very important his development as
Speaker 2: a head coach as a leader of a football program.
Speaker 2: So you tell me who he's gonna learn that from,
Speaker 2: It's not loui An Rumo, because he doesn't have the
Speaker 2: experience in that regard that that Wade Phillips did. The
Speaker 2: other thing, it took time. It took Sean McVay a
Speaker 2: few years to get to where he is now. Is
Speaker 2: Ben Johnson not really? Yes, it did. They got that
Speaker 2: boost they had in eighteen then they kind of fell
Speaker 2: back down and he'd have built it back up again.
Speaker 2: Is Ben Johnson going to have that time in New England?
Speaker 2: In terms of pressure on the organization? There might not
Speaker 2: be two teams that are more polar opposite than the
Speaker 2: New England Patriots and the Los Angeles Rams. Is Ben
Speaker 2: Johnson going to have the time to learn what he
Speaker 2: needs to learn. Robert Kraft said the other day he
Speaker 2: still thinks straw and you know, some of this might
Speaker 2: have been playing policies, but he said he thinks straw,
Speaker 2: you know, in time can get there. But they needed
Speaker 2: to turn this thing around fast. Is Ben Johnson gonna
Speaker 2: be afforded the time that he needs that Sean McVay
Speaker 2: was afforded to get the where he needs to be.
Speaker 2: I think most coaches, most guys can get to this
Speaker 2: level if given the time, can be decent. The NFL
Speaker 2: is a patience problem. But is that guy getting that
Speaker 2: time here?
Speaker 3: So the difference to me and then I do want
Speaker 3: to open it up because we're gonna rant and rave
Speaker 3: about this in circles forever. And I should also mention
Speaker 3: for the seventeenth time, you're gonna end up getting your
Speaker 3: wish because Mike Vrabel is gonna be the next coach
Speaker 3: of the Patriots. Just my opinion, but I think that
Speaker 3: that's what's gonna happen anyway.
Speaker 2: So this is well, then that's all the pressure on
Speaker 2: me because you if he doesn't work out, you get
Speaker 2: to tell me I told you so all you want
Speaker 2: when freaking you know, and if he doesn't work out,
Speaker 2: O Larry and Curly to be his offensive coordinator. Hang on,
Speaker 2: if we're going by age, let me give you a name.
Speaker 2: Let me give you a name. This could really be
Speaker 2: for either of them. Okay, so hang on Kyle Flood,
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, like, what what do you wanted?
Speaker 3: Let's just run, Like, why don't we go back into
Speaker 3: nineteen forty and run the week?
Speaker 2: You know Kyle? Yes, I know Kyle Floder, the offense coordinator.
Speaker 2: I don't know where he was now, Okay, with Miami.
Speaker 2: I think you're thinking of somebody else. I don't think so.
Speaker 2: This is actually so. I wouldn't hire a Scott. Oh no,
Speaker 2: he was in the NFL very briefly. He was with
Speaker 2: the Falcons. Okay. He has been Steve Sarkesian's offensive coordinator
Speaker 2: at Texas since twenty twenty one. It's fifty three years old.
Speaker 2: All right, it's not that old. I'll take it. I
Speaker 2: don't know that i'd hire him, but like my point,
Speaker 2: like you can go down all these different rabbit holes.
Speaker 2: There's more people available at coaching level than you realize. Okay, well,
Speaker 2: one more name, Holman Wiggins, because I have to bring
Speaker 2: him up every time in Alabama, the one guy that's
Speaker 2: saving for whatever reason when he's at A and M Now, yeah, okay,
Speaker 2: so you you we digress because we're going to argue
Speaker 2: about this in circles. If this process continues, we're going
Speaker 2: to continue to argue about this in circles. I don't
Speaker 2: think it's continuing that long.
Speaker 3: I don't think so either. So that's where we're at
Speaker 3: with the cord, the coaches. It's no wrong answer in
Speaker 3: my opinion, but I definitely I just want to see
Speaker 3: this Patriots team and this Patriots offense specifically. I would
Speaker 3: like to see the Patriots modernize and innovate on offense.
Speaker 3: I think that they've tried it for too long now
Speaker 3: to run schemes that were twenty years old, right, and
Speaker 3: I think that they need to get into a scheme
Speaker 3: that is going to bring Drake May along and it's
Speaker 3: gonna do all that sort of thing. So I think
Speaker 3: Ben Johnson is a guy for the time and let
Speaker 3: me that.
Speaker 2: Would be one of my first questions to Mike Rabel.
Speaker 2: That really the question, what's your plan on offense? And
Speaker 2: if he says, Josh McDaniels are gonna turn Drake May
Speaker 2: and or Tom Brady, I would be hesitant and you
Speaker 2: take a lot longer look at it if he says,
Speaker 2: you know, I was in Cleveland and I kind of,
Speaker 2: you know, networked around the league, and I here's some
Speaker 2: guys I have that are up and coming and they
Speaker 2: worked in these systems in Detroit and San Francisco and
Speaker 2: Green Bay, and I'd like to bring them on and
Speaker 2: kind of get them started. Then there you go. Then
Speaker 2: that like, I don't think Mike, I don't think it's
Speaker 2: safe to assume Mike Rabel won't go for that more
Speaker 2: modernized offense. It might not be putting the right tackle
Speaker 2: in motion, but happy there's a happy medium between that
Speaker 2: and you know, the old school Josh McDaniels off.
Speaker 3: So the last point I want to make on Ben
Speaker 3: Johnson and then I promise for there's a lot of
Speaker 3: emails and calls.
Speaker 2: I know, I see you all there.
Speaker 3: I'm sorry, but we had to get this off our
Speaker 3: chest because we've been arguing about this off the air
Speaker 3: for three days. So now this is fun because I
Speaker 3: don't like that we yelled at each other. I don't
Speaker 3: like to yell.
Speaker 2: I do like that we yelled at each other.
Speaker 3: But the last thing I would say about Ben Johnson
Speaker 3: in support of him is that with Girodmeo, one of
Speaker 3: my biggest concerns going in and what ended up happening,
Speaker 3: was that even though he was a defensive guy, he
Speaker 3: didn't have the experience to truly own the defense right
Speaker 3: in terms of being a coordinator and a play caller
Speaker 3: before where the defensive side of the ball was going
Speaker 3: to be. You know, Demico, Ryans, Sean McDermott like, this
Speaker 3: is my defense.
Speaker 2: He didn't have the ownership of the defense, and I
Speaker 2: don't think they wanted him to. I don't think that
Speaker 2: was ever the plan, right.
Speaker 3: So that's why they're gonna hire a vaible because they
Speaker 3: want the CEO. They saw it with Bill. I think
Speaker 3: they saw it with Parcels.
Speaker 2: I think they want that guy, even if Rabel is
Speaker 2: the CEO. Yeah, I want him hands on with the
Speaker 2: defense like Mayo wasn't right. I want him doing what
Speaker 2: Bill did and going over the linebacker huddle and getting
Speaker 2: on the white board. And I want the same from
Speaker 2: Ben Johnson. On the offense, he was sinking and so
Speaker 2: he didn't. I don't believe he was able to really
Speaker 2: sink his teeth into the defense the way that maybe
Speaker 2: he envisioned doing because he didn't realize the breath of
Speaker 2: the job. He didn't realize all of the other things
Speaker 2: that were going to come with the job. Now, when
Speaker 2: you hire Ben Johnson to be your coach, you know
Speaker 2: that you're hiring the whiz kid, right, So you're hiring
Speaker 2: a play caller. You're hiring him to run your offense.
Speaker 2: So then you have to properly support him to allow
Speaker 2: him to do what he does better. Well, you need
Speaker 2: to make sure that the job doesn't suddenly become too
Speaker 2: big for him. And there's no way to know until
Speaker 2: he's in it. Like I'm not saying he is or
Speaker 2: he is, and I'm saying there's no way to know.
Speaker 2: And that's the risk in hiring him. If he knew, great,
Speaker 2: he'd be the obvious choice. And that's why it sucks
Speaker 2: that Brian day Ball went back to New York because
Speaker 2: I think we'd both probably he's sitting here pounding the
Speaker 2: table for Brian Daball if he was available. So with
Speaker 2: in with Rabel, yeah, you have to find like he's
Speaker 2: going to manage the organization, he's gonna be involved at
Speaker 2: the defense. But you don't want him being hands on
Speaker 2: with the offense. You've got to find somebody who could
Speaker 2: do that and do it at a level that's appropriate
Speaker 2: to the asset that you have in Drake may fair enough.
Speaker 3: I last thing it just with with Mayo when it
Speaker 3: came to his firing, yeap. Ultimately, I believe what got
Speaker 3: him fired was the messaging coming out of the building
Speaker 3: right and just, and I think within the building right
Speaker 3: in just the control of the situation. If he if
Speaker 3: it was just the football, as bad as the football was,
Speaker 3: Don't get me wrong, because we lived it. It was
Speaker 3: bad as bad as the football was. If he had
Speaker 3: controlled the messaging in and out of the building, the
Speaker 3: press conferences, the july of eye of it all right,
Speaker 3: if right, if he's able to control all of that,
Speaker 3: I think he would have gotten the second season. I
Speaker 3: think you would have gotten an opportunity to grow into
Speaker 3: the job. But for me personally, because as you know,
Speaker 3: I'm more on the x's and NO'SE than on the
Speaker 3: culture side with the x's and no's. If I felt
Speaker 3: like Drod Mayo was a great defensive coordinator, not necessarily
Speaker 3: a great head coach yet, but a great defensive coordinator
Speaker 3: that could run and own that side of the football,
Speaker 3: then I would have been open to giving him a
Speaker 3: second season. But he never showed that he had the
Speaker 3: chops to do that. He never took ownership of the defense,
Speaker 3: and he never gave us any indication that what they
Speaker 3: were doing on defense was gonna work, whether it was
Speaker 3: the fundamentals of the defense or it was the scheme.
Speaker 3: It never took on a Girodmeo identity where I could
Speaker 3: say and point we don't even be right, but we
Speaker 3: can't point my finger to and say that is cool,
Speaker 3: that is neat, that is good, that sound, let's keep
Speaker 3: doing that. They never got to that point on defense.
Speaker 3: I don't know if Ben Johnson's gonna be ready to
Speaker 3: do all the things that you're talking about, which you're valid.
Speaker 3: I opened the show saying all that was valid.
Speaker 2: And let me be clear, I'm not saying you can't.
Speaker 2: I'm just saying it's an unknown and that's the risk,
Speaker 2: and it's you're not answering the biggest questions of the
Speaker 2: Dard Mayo er. You're enough.
Speaker 3: I don't know if Ben Johnson can do that kind
Speaker 3: of stuff right. The difference between him and Girod Mayo.
Speaker 3: I know for a fact the offense is gonna rock, right,
Speaker 3: you know imally it's gonna be clean. So I'm not
Speaker 3: gonna be worried about what does this guy do well?
Speaker 3: Because that's what it got to at the end of
Speaker 3: girodd I remember, I think it was on Unfiltered somebody
Speaker 3: called in and the four of us were asked, what
Speaker 3: does Girod.
Speaker 2: Mayo do well? Dead silence right, We did not have
Speaker 2: an answer. We thought it was controlling the locker room,
Speaker 2: and then we kind of found out late that that
Speaker 2: was it. No, like I will be able to say
Speaker 2: Ben Johnson kicks out, this might be the best way
Speaker 2: to put off. I think if you hire Ben Johnson,
Speaker 2: like if you hire either way, it's an upgrade. There's
Speaker 2: a reason these two are the top two guys available.
Speaker 2: If you hire Ben Johnson, you're steeled. You're still dealing
Speaker 2: with the biggest ifs of the drawd Mao era. If
Speaker 2: you hire Mike Rabel, you're still dealing with the biggest
Speaker 2: IFFs of the end, the very end last two years
Speaker 2: of the Bill Belichick era. So basically, where do you
Speaker 2: want to be do you want to be at the
Speaker 2: end of the Belichick and Rabel's not as good as Belichick. Obviously,
Speaker 2: Belichick is the program builder maybe in any sport ever,
Speaker 2: at least professional sports. But like, do you want to
Speaker 2: deal with questions about the offense or do you want
Speaker 2: to deal with questions about the culture and the direction
Speaker 2: inside the building?
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Speaker 3: the New England Patriots. So uh uh, what is upholstery.
Speaker 2: Something to do with furniture? I think it's like, yeah,
Speaker 2: side part of the furniture, furniture. I know it's a
Speaker 2: furniture part of it. It's no, I thought it was
Speaker 2: the opposite pole. I don't even know stuff that holds
Speaker 2: starts with you. You acted like I was crazy for
Speaker 2: not knowing that I've heard it is. The upholstery is
Speaker 2: the work of providing furniture, especially seats with padding, springs, webbing,
Speaker 2: and fabric or leather covers. The word also refers to
Speaker 2: the materials used to upholster something. Okay, and that's that
Speaker 2: all right. Let's get to what's William Shakespeare famous for.
Speaker 3: Let's get to the phones, and hopefully everybody's hung on,
Speaker 3: because I know we've been leaving you on hold.
Speaker 2: Based on YouTube.
Speaker 3: I think the people enjoyed it, all right, Patty is
Speaker 3: an aguon what's up, Patty?
Speaker 7: What's going on?
Speaker 2: Gentlemen?
Speaker 7: Ev, and I just got to say to you that
Speaker 7: was a beautiful transition to the ad. First and foremost,
Speaker 7: I want to go over a couple of things, and
Speaker 7: then you know, it's off season, so I'm gonna end
Speaker 7: with a couple questions, as I always do. We had
Speaker 7: a caller call in to pee you yesterday saying how
Speaker 7: he'd be happy was either guy. And I'm kind of
Speaker 7: in that same boat. If I brutally honest, I am
Speaker 7: leaning more towards Brabil and it does I get a
Speaker 7: side with Alex. It has to do with a little
Speaker 7: bit of the unknown. But I also like Ev and
Speaker 7: I I think Brabel is smart enough to know the
Speaker 7: kind of asset that Drake May is and I mean
Speaker 7: a piece of smart does he thinks he is and
Speaker 7: everyone thinks he is. He's gonna see the talent and
Speaker 7: knows that he that's that's the you know, that's your
Speaker 7: ace of space, That's that's your trump card, that's that's
Speaker 7: that's your lottery ticket. That's the guy that's gonna bring
Speaker 7: it home.
Speaker 8: You know.
Speaker 2: Great way to put it, Patty, great way to put it.
Speaker 7: And and I like I do like I would parallel
Speaker 7: him more with parcels than with Belichick, because I think
Speaker 7: you I I think everyone in the media is going
Speaker 7: to eat up Rable at the podium because he's gonna
Speaker 7: have some smart ass remarks and be you know, a
Speaker 7: little stardonic and sarcastic and but but that has nothing
Speaker 7: to do with like the product on the field. I
Speaker 7: just like every other fan, I want the product on
Speaker 7: the field to be better, and I think with either
Speaker 7: of these two guys, it's going to improve within a
Speaker 7: couple of years, all right, So I want to I
Speaker 7: want some uh, I want some input on some players.
Speaker 7: And the first Alex, get your pen ready, because I
Speaker 7: want you to write it down so they don't forget.
Speaker 2: I'm on my computer in front of me today.
Speaker 7: Saw all right, there you go, buddy. So the first
Speaker 7: guy I want to know, or it's only one player.
Speaker 7: But then I have a question on our personnel. So
Speaker 7: I wanted to get your guys' opinions on poon A
Speaker 7: Ford if we're gonna kind of run the same the
Speaker 7: similar defense that we've been running for the past, you know,
Speaker 7: however many years it's been as a nose tackle. I
Speaker 7: think he's a good player. I think, honestly, I'll want
Speaker 7: to just kind of flush these turds like Jelani Tavai
Speaker 7: and Devin gotschat on the toilet and cut some of
Speaker 7: this dead weight. And do you guys think that's question one?
Speaker 7: Question two is some of the contracts that we signed
Speaker 7: last offseason, do you think not just cutting guys, but
Speaker 7: do you see us possibly moving on, like trying to
Speaker 7: trade some of these guys with either guy coming in
Speaker 7: with Johnson or Vrabel coming in. If if it's one
Speaker 7: of those two guys, and I'll take it off air,
Speaker 7: And who are those guys? If we do cut ties
Speaker 7: with some of these players that we signed the long
Speaker 7: term deals last year, that's all I got. I'll take
Speaker 7: it off air.
Speaker 2: Guys.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I definitely believe that some of those circle the
Speaker 3: Wagons Belichick era, Girodmeo era guys aren't necessarily safe if
Speaker 3: with this new head coach, because it's not gonna be
Speaker 3: his guys right talking about well, I would say, you
Speaker 3: know some of the guys he mentioned Godshaw, Jelani Tavai.
Speaker 2: I thought you're talking about the guys signed extensions last year.
Speaker 3: No, I don't think any of those guys necessarily It's
Speaker 3: also difficult unless you find a trade partner to get
Speaker 3: out in some of those.
Speaker 2: They're probably a year away from being able to get
Speaker 2: out of most of them, right.
Speaker 3: But I do think those Circle the Wagons guys in
Speaker 3: the locker room that they kept around, that they held over.
Speaker 2: You know, I don't necessarily say.
Speaker 3: This as a as a knock like. I'm not saying
Speaker 3: that they're bad players. I'm just saying that those those
Speaker 3: lunch pail guys were specifically lunch pale guys for this regime.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Right, we talked about this last year and it
Speaker 2: didn't end up happening because it was this you know,
Speaker 2: same defensive coach. But yeah, new coach comes in, he's
Speaker 2: gonna want his guys. He's gonna wan. This goes back
Speaker 2: to program building, right, whether it's Ben Johnson or Mike Rabel,
Speaker 2: there are players in the league that they know can
Speaker 2: come in and set a tone and you know, they'll
Speaker 2: kind of show the way they want it to be done,
Speaker 2: and they're gonna go out and get a handful three
Speaker 2: four five of those guys probably either one and it's
Speaker 2: gonna be different players, whether it's Vrabel or Johnson, but
Speaker 2: they're gonna go out and they're gonna get those guys,
Speaker 2: and the previous culture guys are probably gonna be looking
Speaker 2: for new jobs. What do you think of Punifford. I've
Speaker 2: always liked this game. Yeah, he's a good player.
Speaker 3: Yeah, a solid nose tackle. I definitely think that they
Speaker 3: need to address the defensive line and free agency. I
Speaker 3: don't think you need to waste dress see a free agent.
Speaker 3: So I don't know off the top of my head,
Speaker 3: but I wouldn't think he would be brought up if
Speaker 3: he wasn't. I do think you can address the defensive
Speaker 3: line in free agency and bring in just some replacements
Speaker 3: and maybe some upgrades and younger players for a guy
Speaker 3: like Dietrich Wise, Daniel Qualley, Devon Godshaw. I think Gotshaw
Speaker 3: is still playing very very well, so I wouldn't necessarily
Speaker 3: put him in that category as quickly. But I don't
Speaker 3: necessarily believe that they're gonna have the luxury to address
Speaker 3: an interior defensive lineman in the draft. I know we
Speaker 3: get a lot of questions about guys like Mason Graham,
Speaker 3: and then.
Speaker 2: You can get I mean defensive tackles specifically. We talk
Speaker 2: about this every year, like you can get good nose
Speaker 2: tackles later because yeah, interesting, but right, I think what
Speaker 2: they really need, uh in and that interior is if
Speaker 2: they're gonna continue to be too gapping, which I think
Speaker 2: they probably would Underrabel, uh, they need some ends that
Speaker 2: can really play all situations. Yeah, like Barmore is one
Speaker 2: of those guys, hopefully when he comes back. But they
Speaker 2: were you know, Jeremiah Farms, Daniel Qualley, Dietrich Wise. Those
Speaker 2: guys did their best, but they just run defense and
Speaker 2: the ability to stop the run up front, the fundamentals
Speaker 2: that play blocks things like that.
Speaker 3: It wasn't good. It wasn't good enough. So you have
Speaker 3: to look at guys that can upgrade there. All right,
Speaker 3: let's get back to the phones, and it is Nate
Speaker 3: in Ohio.
Speaker 2: What's up? Nate?
Speaker 7: Hi?
Speaker 5: How's it going?
Speaker 2: Guys? Good? Thanks for holding on.
Speaker 5: So I just have a question, is far in the
Speaker 5: draft even if like at four, if Travis Hunter was there,
Speaker 5: would it be crazy to think about them possibly passing
Speaker 5: on him to take Will Campbell or Kelvin Banks. And
Speaker 5: then would you guys think that they would maybe sign
Speaker 5: like Will Fries or Trey Smith and free agency and
Speaker 5: kind of just shure up the offensive line. I think
Speaker 5: that would help Drake May and also help out the
Speaker 5: run game, and I'll take that off their I appreciate.
Speaker 2: It, thanks, Nate. I do not.
Speaker 3: I now put Travis Hunter even more on the table
Speaker 3: because I'm going to have more faith in the next
Speaker 3: head coach to figure Travis Hunter out.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but he's not going to four.
Speaker 3: No, I don't think so either. But if off the
Speaker 3: off chance that he does get to or I'm just
Speaker 3: gonna assume it's gonna be Mike Rabel, don't you have
Speaker 3: a lot more faith in Mike Rabel figuring out drafts under.
Speaker 2: This is one of those things Like I said this
Speaker 2: with Caleb Williams last year. Though, if Travis Hunter falls
Speaker 2: to four, shouldn't that tell us something? If a guy
Speaker 2: that talented gets passed up by three talent starve teams,
Speaker 2: doesn't isn't that a red flag to you? Yes, So
Speaker 2: at that point, find somebody really wants him, trade it,
Speaker 2: get a haul. I'm not saying I wouldn't take.
Speaker 3: Him, but at that point, it's because teams are afraid
Speaker 3: of where is he playing?
Speaker 2: What you know?
Speaker 3: And that happens you know well, and usually happens with
Speaker 3: lesser prospects, right, but it certainly he.
Speaker 2: May go into every meeting and say I'm playing wide receiver.
Speaker 2: Don't draft me if you don't want me playing wide receiver,
Speaker 2: and teams may say, no, we see he as a corner.
Speaker 2: Look if I'm the Patriots and I see him as
Speaker 2: a corner and he says he's gonna refuse to play corner,
Speaker 2: I wouldn't draft him. Yeah, like I So, yeah, there's
Speaker 2: he makes more sense now, But I still think the
Speaker 2: value you can get for that pick if he's on
Speaker 2: the board outweighs the value he brings. Yeah, that's fair,
Speaker 2: but I wouldn't. I wouldn't take campbeller Banks outright it
Speaker 2: for over him. If you can't move the pick, then
Speaker 2: yeah you take Hunter. Yeah. Sure. Todd is in North Carolina.
Speaker 2: What's up, Todd?
Speaker 4: Hey, guys. Uh, I'm just kind of I've been thinking
Speaker 4: about it. I'm a little bit disappointed in the Crafts
Speaker 4: because they put a first time head coach with a
Speaker 4: first time offensive coach OC and a first time DC
Speaker 4: and I don't know of any team anywhere that's had
Speaker 4: success with that kind of ill to climb, and it
Speaker 4: just it just felt awkward that they let that happen, Like,
Speaker 4: if you're going to be, what they say, the stewards
Speaker 4: for the team, why would you let the team stray
Speaker 4: that far away from having some solid coach at least
Speaker 4: somewhere in there to give some guidance. And my other
Speaker 4: problem is, is there any chance that anybody would keep
Speaker 4: a VP they came in, because I really think that
Speaker 4: he did a good with both of those young quarterbacks.
Speaker 4: It would be nice to just see maybe shim get
Speaker 4: a chance to grow with somebody who's got some talent.
Speaker 4: And that's it. That's all I got got.
Speaker 3: Thanks, good call, Todd. So I think that to the
Speaker 3: first point, I'm one hundred percent with you. This was
Speaker 3: and he said it to himself, right, Robert Gravie, And
Speaker 3: I give him a credit for this.
Speaker 2: Now.
Speaker 3: Why I'm not necessarily railing on him for it is
Speaker 3: because he failed fast, right, He realized that it was
Speaker 3: a mistake, right, and he corrected it and immediately would.
Speaker 2: Have been a much bigger mistake to double down and
Speaker 2: try a second.
Speaker 3: You're right, So it's it's pretty hard for us to
Speaker 3: then come on here and say what a mistake, what
Speaker 3: a mistake, and really rare rail on Ownership when Ownership
Speaker 3: came out and said we made a mistake.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, yeah, no, absolutely. And to the second point on
Speaker 2: Van Pelt, Look, I think Van Pelt did a really
Speaker 2: good job is here. I think he did an underrated job.
Speaker 2: I think the circumstances, everything that was going on around him.
Speaker 2: Maybe maybe in like five years will look back at
Speaker 2: it and say, wow, he did. You know what he
Speaker 2: did with Drake May was should have gotten more credit
Speaker 2: in the time than he did. There is sort of
Speaker 2: a through line with him and for Able with Rabel's
Speaker 2: connections in Cleveland. But I think Rabel it to your point,
Speaker 2: and some of you've been hammering, I think Rabel's gonna
Speaker 2: have higher aspirations for the offense coordinator now if he
Speaker 2: does bring back Alex van Pelt. Takes away your whole
Speaker 2: argument about having to turn that thing over every year.
Speaker 2: And I don't think he's not coming back as quarterbacks coach.
Speaker 2: He's gonna get oc offers elsewhere off the job he
Speaker 2: did here might be back in Cleveland. But what he
Speaker 2: did with Drake May, what he did with Joe Milton,
Speaker 2: I only needed one game really to see. I do
Speaker 2: want to end with some that was that was well,
Speaker 2: let me just say that was a completely different player
Speaker 2: we saw on and I mean this is the most
Speaker 2: complimentary way possible. Seriously, that was a completely different player
Speaker 2: we saw on Sunday than we saw in the summer.
Speaker 2: That was a completely different quarterback. And Joe Milton himself
Speaker 2: deserves the most credit because he took the coaching and
Speaker 2: he put in the work and we know he worked
Speaker 2: hard behind the scenes and he took the right approach,
Speaker 2: and he deserves credit. Van Pelt deserves a ton of
Speaker 2: credit for that too, because you could argue there were
Speaker 2: definitely people who would have called Joe Milton the least
Speaker 2: developable quarterback in that draft, and Van Pelt it worked
Speaker 2: wonders with him.
Speaker 3: So I agree with you that there's probably a necessity
Speaker 3: to aim higher and probably honestly a what's the word
Speaker 3: a mandate to name higher? I think from the top,
Speaker 3: and that's just my belief my thoughts. But at the
Speaker 3: same time, there is a tie. You know, he was
Speaker 3: in Cleveland for this past season with Kevin Stefanski, who
Speaker 3: my guess is kind of regrets letting go of Alex
Speaker 3: Van Pelt with the seasons, so they had in Cleveland
Speaker 3: and We mentioned Lafloor and we mentioned Arthur Smith. Those
Speaker 3: are two West Coast coaches run very similar systems to
Speaker 3: what they run in Cleveland. There's definitely a tie that
Speaker 3: says it could work.
Speaker 2: And there's the former player thing, Like you look at
Speaker 2: Ben Johnson's staff, it's you look at Dan Campbell's staff.
Speaker 2: Ben Johnson's like the only non former player on that staff.
Speaker 2: So yeah, there's an inherent tie too between former players
Speaker 2: when you get to the coaching level.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, and I I'm not one hundred percent here for it,
Speaker 3: because I do think you can aim higher, and I
Speaker 3: do think you can get a better offensive coordinator, not
Speaker 3: a quarterbacks coach, but a better offense.
Speaker 2: Let me put it this way, I'd be surprised if
Speaker 2: Rabel or Ben Johnson, for that matter, like you got
Speaker 2: at least interview Van Pelt and kind of pick his
Speaker 2: brain on what he did he should at least, And
Speaker 2: I know it sounds kind of pathetic interview for your
Speaker 2: own job. Like if there's guys who're gonna talk about
Speaker 2: from this staff that I'd like to see the current
Speaker 2: coach keep, It's not a long list, but Alex man
Speaker 2: Pell and I don't think that one's realistic, the other
Speaker 2: three and more realistic. I wouldn't hate if they kept
Speaker 2: Scott Peters. And there's another through line there with Rabel. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I think as bad as the offensive line was for
Speaker 2: the talent Peters was given, it really could have been
Speaker 2: a lot worse.
Speaker 3: I just worry with Scott Peters. He was another first
Speaker 3: time coach at running the room. I wonder if you
Speaker 3: can get somebody in there that's more experience, and maybe
Speaker 3: you bring.
Speaker 2: In a new assistant. But and I'd like to keep
Speaker 2: Mike Pellegrino. I just think he might go to Chapel Hill.
Speaker 2: But yeah, I just think he's a fantastic coach. I'd
Speaker 2: like to hold on him. And the other one's Jeremy Springer. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and I know he's a coordinator and that's a little
Speaker 2: trickier with a new head coach. But I thought Springer
Speaker 2: did great. If you're trying to reset the culture and
Speaker 2: reset the program, the answer Springer gave about the fans
Speaker 2: booing last Friday was fantastic. Was the best answer anybody
Speaker 2: in the organization gave on that question. He's another guy
Speaker 2: at the very least I would like to see get
Speaker 2: to and it sucks you have to interview for your
Speaker 2: own job, right right, But he's another guy that I
Speaker 2: would like to see at least get that opportunity. Yeah, absolutely,
Speaker 2: all right, the rest of them not so much. Those
Speaker 2: are those four guys are the four guys that look
Speaker 2: at and I'm like, and I guess if you want
Speaker 2: to throw T. C. McCartney in under Van Pelt's umbrella,
Speaker 2: but like you can keep those guys in the building,
Speaker 2: it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world.
Speaker 3: So I definitely agree that Alex van Pelt deserves a
Speaker 3: sit down with Mike Rabel and just to hear him out.
Speaker 3: And maybe you know, you do poach somebody like a
Speaker 3: Tommy Reese or someone like that, or someone from the
Speaker 3: college ranks to then go ahead and you know, innovate, update,
Speaker 3: help with play design like that sort of thing to
Speaker 3: make this thing more you know, a whole in terms
Speaker 3: of just not being just a quarterback coach but being
Speaker 3: an OC. And I also you mentioned Wes Welker. You know,
Speaker 3: is there a chance and I don't think he will
Speaker 3: because he won a playoff game to playoff games, but
Speaker 3: like if Ryan Day doesn't make it for whatever reason
Speaker 3: in Ohio State, does Brian Hartline become available.
Speaker 2: Can you prye Brian Hartline away when Ryan Day makes
Speaker 2: it or not? Passing game coordinator me I talked about
Speaker 2: having that pipeline if you sell Brian Hartline on, hey,
Speaker 2: come here coach receivers, and so Brian Hertline is Ohio
Speaker 2: State's wide receivers coach, which obviously is a factory of
Speaker 2: wide receivers. It's mind blowing. This guy has not gotten
Speaker 2: a better jobob his good got to be getting paid
Speaker 2: a ton by that too. But like the pitch to
Speaker 2: heartline for me would be come here coach or wide receivers,
Speaker 2: and you know we're gonna bring in Josh mccownon, We're
Speaker 2: gonna bring in Tommy Reese, We're gonna bring in whoever
Speaker 2: is the offensive coordinator. We are going to prepare you.
Speaker 2: You are going to be the next guy in that pipeline.
Speaker 2: And that gets back to the program building in the
Speaker 2: pipeline of it all. That would be a fantastic opportunity. Again,
Speaker 2: you have the the former player thing, Keenan McCardell, Sean
Speaker 2: Jefferson who they've talked to in the past, McCardell all
Speaker 2: is probably more a Brian Flores guy bringing him Sean Jefferson.
Speaker 2: They're probably gonna blow up in New York, right, I
Speaker 2: would think offensively. Yeah, ye, so probably like Sean Jefferson
Speaker 2: should either whether it's it's Ben Johnson or or Mike Vrabel. Frankly,
Speaker 2: Seawan was Sean Jeffers, It was Jefferson McCardell. I get
Speaker 2: it mixed up because interviewing him at the same time. Yeah,
Speaker 2: that was the Obrien here right, who was the one
Speaker 2: who Calvin Johnson said was the best coach he's ever had.
Speaker 3: I would assume that that was Sean Jefferson. Okay, So
Speaker 3: is McCardell was in Minnesota.
Speaker 2: Okay, So if he's good enough for Calvin Johnson should
Speaker 2: be good enough for you. I'd like that.
Speaker 3: That's a big time chicken or the egg. I think
Speaker 3: Calvin Johnson was gonna be good no matter what.
Speaker 2: No, he no, no, no, it's not. I'm not saying
Speaker 2: he made Calvin Johnsonvin Johns. If that guy saw something
Speaker 2: in this coach, doesn't that mean there's probably something there
Speaker 2: to see? Yes, right, that's more so much. I'm not
Speaker 2: saying Sewn Jefferson's gonna turn all your receivers into Calvin Johnson.
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, nice, it'd be fun.
Speaker 3: There's so many emails that I'm trying to get the
Speaker 3: read through.
Speaker 2: Some of them we got calls to. I know, there's
Speaker 2: so many emails.
Speaker 3: So, uh, there's some people reacting to our debate about
Speaker 3: Ben Johnson versus Mike Crable as you can imagine.
Speaker 2: One and the people's head.
Speaker 3: So Jonathan and PbD, because he wants to just be Switzerland,
Speaker 3: said we're both right, and uh, he said, I.
Speaker 2: Think that's kind of what I was going for.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we both kind of felt that way. So glad
Speaker 3: that that guy.
Speaker 2: I'm glad he understood the opening message. We would both
Speaker 2: take either guy. We would both be happy with either.
Speaker 3: So Jonathan kind of sums up my feelings on it.
Speaker 3: I don't know if you exactly feel the same way,
Speaker 3: but this is how Jonathan sums it up and sort
Speaker 3: of how what I was saying earlier. He says, I
Speaker 3: think you're both right. In just a discussion of floor
Speaker 3: versus ceiling. Ben Johnson is the low floor high ceiling play.
Speaker 3: He is the swing for the fences higher That could
Speaker 3: be the next Shanahan McVay YadA, YadA, yadda. Rabel is
Speaker 3: the safe play given that he has experienced, but there's
Speaker 3: the risk the floor becomes the ceiling. Similar, and I
Speaker 3: think this is a good comparison to Mike Tomlin with
Speaker 3: the Pittsburgh Steelers, where I would be so happy where
Speaker 3: you're never a blow five hundred team, but you're not
Speaker 3: also never a serious content.
Speaker 2: But they've won, They've won with Tomlin. To Bethsger, yes, well,
Speaker 2: Drake may should be relative to error at least Ben Roethlisberger,
Speaker 2: I would say so, right, Tomlin.
Speaker 3: The difference between Tomlin and with this situation with Rabel
Speaker 3: is Tomlin inherited a damn good tomin right.
Speaker 2: It's it's not exactly apples to apples.
Speaker 3: It would have been like and inherited the after twenty.
Speaker 2: Eighteen, right, So to me, the floor ceiling thing, yes,
Speaker 2: and I agree with that, but I add the addendum
Speaker 2: on of I'll let my roster set the ceiling, right,
Speaker 2: I just have the coach set the floor and establish
Speaker 2: a program that works. And then I think with a
Speaker 2: good roster, the ceiling you have with the great roster
Speaker 2: is higher than the ceiling you have with a great coach. So,
Speaker 2: and and that's why we're sitting here today. Yeah, but
Speaker 2: I well, I think a bad coach can drag down
Speaker 2: a good roster more than a bad roster can drag
Speaker 2: down a good coach, if that makes sense. This is
Speaker 2: why I didn't get to give this take. So I'll
Speaker 2: just kind of wedge it in here now. The head
Speaker 2: coach hiring is not the most important thing to me.
Speaker 2: It's very important, It's very important. It's not the most
Speaker 2: important thing to me. Who has final say, who's the
Speaker 2: de facto GM Mike Vrabel, is it somebody else? We
Speaker 2: touch on that a little bit. We touched in a
Speaker 2: little bit. But just like you're not going to fix
Speaker 2: this without him, you can give Rabel or Ben Jonson
Speaker 2: and a roster looks like this, it's not gonna go
Speaker 2: well for either one of them, even with your scheme
Speaker 2: whiteboard stuff. Hey, the am I wrong? You want to
Speaker 2: give Ben Johnson? This off is a long way from
Speaker 2: Penna school.
Speaker 3: But it's the thing that I like about Ben Johnson
Speaker 3: and why I'm so high on him as a as
Speaker 3: a coach, is that he'll come in here and yes,
Speaker 3: he built the Lions offense around that offensive line and rightfully.
Speaker 3: So that's why they drafted Jamiir Gibbs, That's why they
Speaker 3: drafted Penny Sewell, and they built it. Okay, so let
Speaker 3: me if he doesn't have the line, and he has
Speaker 3: great receivers or a great quarterback, I think he'll pivot.
Speaker 2: See, but these guys famously don't pivot. No. I Also,
Speaker 2: if they hire Ben Johnson, you don't get to complain
Speaker 2: if they draft a running back with the first round
Speaker 2: of a year or two. I'm gonna hold you to that.
Speaker 3: In a couple of years, we have to build the
Speaker 3: offensive line first. The reason why Jamiir Gibbs works in
Speaker 3: Detroit is a combiny.
Speaker 2: I'm not saying if they draft Ashton Genty this year,
Speaker 2: that's questionable even with Johnson, but drafted Ashton Gentry after
Speaker 2: that playoff game at all. He was better in that
Speaker 2: game than you. I told you all year that line
Speaker 2: sack after contact seven times. Here's my point on the
Speaker 2: head of personnel. Yeah, here's my point. Yeah, Drake May
Speaker 2: definitely franchise quarterback. All of that, we're not watching Drake
Speaker 2: May once a week for the next four months. Drake
Speaker 2: May is gonna be in North Carolina working with quarterbacks, coach,
Speaker 2: out of side, out of mind. Whoever, and even if
Speaker 2: it's the coach, right, Ben Johnson is not making the
Speaker 2: picks at the draft. Mike Rabel will see whoever gets
Speaker 2: that final say that person becomes the face of the
Speaker 2: franchise for the next four months. This whole thing. Drake
Speaker 2: may the new head coach, all of it. It's gonna
Speaker 2: sink or swim based on who's making the personnel decisions.
Speaker 3: I agree, I if I again, if it's Ben Johnson,
Speaker 3: you have to hire a legitimate and j.
Speaker 2: And I like I wanted Ray Agnew last year he
Speaker 2: was talking about, Say I love Ray Agnew. I'd like
Speaker 2: Ray Agnew. Even if it's Mike Rabel, I would.
Speaker 3: Hire Ray Agnew as the personnel guy. I think you
Speaker 3: actually need to hire two people at that.
Speaker 2: Point, because you need a Chris Pielman too.
Speaker 3: I think you somebody above Ray Agnew and above Ben Johnson.
Speaker 2: Isn't that what Chris Pielman is in Detroit? Yes, yes,
Speaker 2: I think so. I'm not exactly sure. He's like sort
Speaker 2: of senior football there. He's the football overlord. Yes, I'm
Speaker 2: the president of football. We talked about this last offseason.
Speaker 3: It never happened, And I want to resurface this take
Speaker 3: because I think that this take is good to take
Speaker 3: valid especially if it's Ben Johnson.
Speaker 2: It's very well. I'm not as worried about it. I
Speaker 2: think he can be because we want to be able
Speaker 2: to be this guy. Chris Bielman is a special assistant
Speaker 2: to the owner in the CEO of the Detroit Lions.
Speaker 2: There you go.
Speaker 3: So they need a football guy to be in a
Speaker 3: president of football operations chair.
Speaker 2: They need and maybe it's not a great day to
Speaker 2: bring this example up. They need a Cam Neely.
Speaker 3: Yes, and now it's the only example that's really relevant
Speaker 3: to Boston because what they don't need is a Sam Kennedy.
Speaker 2: They need a football guy to be helping with the football, right.
Speaker 3: They don't need Sam Kennedy, no offense, Boston Red Sox.
Speaker 3: They need Cam Neely and they need a guy that
Speaker 3: is going to do it.
Speaker 2: Let's use Chris Fieldman. That's probably better. M yeah, probably,
Speaker 2: But to the Bruins credit. And I know it's a
Speaker 2: different league. It worked for a long time. It's different
Speaker 2: league and all that kind of stuff. It worked for
Speaker 2: a long time.
Speaker 3: They're always in the playoffs, like They're always a relevant team,
Speaker 3: and that's what we want the Patriots to be to
Speaker 3: an extent, we obviously want the ceiling to be higher
Speaker 3: for the Patriots.
Speaker 2: But whatever, All right, let's get back to the emails.
Speaker 3: Jeffrey is in Canada and he's pushing back on me
Speaker 3: now because these.
Speaker 2: Are your people.
Speaker 3: Here are people, Evan, I have to push back if
Speaker 3: I give you Gary kubi Act. In the last ten
Speaker 3: Super Bowls, only two have been type pants guys that
Speaker 3: have won the Super Bowl. The type pants guys that
Speaker 3: have have lost five Super Bowls.
Speaker 2: So my response is large part two to Kyle Shanahan.
Speaker 2: So in my.
Speaker 3: Response to this is okay, Well, in the last ten years,
Speaker 3: two of them were Bill Belichick, three of them were
Speaker 3: Andy Reid. So there goes half of the of the pool, right,
Speaker 3: and then the other guys that have woned. Doug Peterson,
Speaker 3: I don't know what is he. He's in the middle.
Speaker 2: Probably, Well, let me ask you this, because can't throw
Speaker 2: them out, Tyler. And I'm not saying he's close Bill Belichick,
Speaker 2: Andy Reid, Doug Peterson. Yeah, who is closer to that?
Speaker 2: Mold Ben Johnson or Mike Rabel. Well, Doug Peterson and
Speaker 2: Andy Reid both call offenses. Who is closer to the
Speaker 2: mold as they exist right now?
Speaker 3: I guess probably my fraible there you go, But I
Speaker 3: would My rebuttal to this is that if you told
Speaker 3: me that the Patriots were in overtime of the Super
Speaker 3: Bowl with Ben Johnson, I'm taking it.
Speaker 2: So I will actually give you a fair rebuttal of this. Yeah,
Speaker 2: you hope. And this goes to the personnel thing. How
Speaker 2: often do I get on Kyle Shanahan because he just
Speaker 2: keeps picking bad quarterbacks and.
Speaker 3: Putting him in position? Well, that's what he says. He said,
Speaker 3: I think it's gone got way more to do with
Speaker 3: you who your quarterback is. And uh then slim versus
Speaker 3: relaxed fit, which is funny.
Speaker 2: I'll give him that though. So did you purposely wear
Speaker 2: like tight Kaki pants? I always wear these pants, of course, easy. Yeah,
Speaker 2: Drake May is obviously a far cry from Jimmy Garoppolo
Speaker 2: and Brock Party. Yep. So you hope that. And I've
Speaker 2: always said if Shanahan had a real quarterback, he probably
Speaker 2: have three or four. But whose fault is it that
Speaker 2: he doesn't have to know about doing that? You know
Speaker 2: it's his fault. It's his fault. He said no to
Speaker 2: Tom Brady, he said his fault. It's his fault.
Speaker 3: But with that being said, you don't have to worry
Speaker 3: if Sean McVay is one of the tight pants guys
Speaker 3: super Bowl.
Speaker 2: I think Sean McVay is the exception of the rule
Speaker 2: super Bowl.
Speaker 3: Kyle Shanahan has been to two of them. Like, if
Speaker 3: you told me that that's where the Patriots are going
Speaker 3: to be, I'm taking.
Speaker 2: It'd be great. And I'm not saying Ben Johnson would
Speaker 2: be a bad hire. I'll be. I'll be want to
Speaker 2: cover super Bowl? You don't want to cover. You want
Speaker 2: to have fun watching film on Monday. You said this year,
Speaker 2: why can it be both? Because well, one should take
Speaker 2: priority over the other. Why can't I have both? You
Speaker 2: can't have both, but one should take priority. All I
Speaker 2: want to get there one way and you want to
Speaker 2: get there another way. No, I want to get there anyway.
Speaker 2: I just want to get there. I want to get there.
Speaker 2: We're in there once and I think that's going to
Speaker 2: be the peak of our careers. Okay, so today's up
Speaker 2: there on the peak. This is a fun show.
Speaker 3: So there's a there's also a Okay, here's another one
Speaker 3: on your side of the stream, Evan, You're worried about
Speaker 3: Rabel ruining Drake May while simultaneously saying he made Ryan
Speaker 3: Tannehill into an MVP candidate.
Speaker 2: Correct, So which one is it? Right? I hear you.
Speaker 2: That's a good question point.
Speaker 3: I think the difference is though for me with that
Speaker 3: argument is that Ryan Tannehill was at a much different
Speaker 3: stage of his career than Drake. So Drake May is
Speaker 3: going into his second season, he's still of developmental project stage.
Speaker 3: He's still got a long ways to go. I love
Speaker 3: the talent, I love Drake May, but let's face it,
Speaker 3: he's got a long way to go.
Speaker 2: He does, but he's not. So I'd say two things. One,
Speaker 2: as much as you can ruin him scammatically, you can
Speaker 2: also run him with a bad culture. You can absolutely
Speaker 2: ruin him with a bad program. Even if he's talented.
Speaker 2: We've seen that two. Drake May's in his developmental stage.
Speaker 2: He's not going to be there forever. You don't need
Speaker 2: to worry about Mike Rabel consistently finding an offensive coordinator
Speaker 2: every other year for the next ten or fifteen years.
Speaker 2: You really just got to get one or two after that. Again,
Speaker 2: I go back to that concept of the program. If
Speaker 2: you can find two guys, the program becomes self powering,
Speaker 2: it becomes self generating. And Drake Mays also just developed
Speaker 2: at this point, and you can if you miss one,
Speaker 2: you can survive. As again, you know I'm serious if
Speaker 2: I am using the bills as a complimentary example as
Speaker 2: they did with Josh Allen.
Speaker 3: Fair enough, all right, So a couple more emails and
Speaker 3: then we'll get back to the phones before we wrap up,
Speaker 3: I promise. So Destiny says that she he or she,
Speaker 3: I'm sorry, I don't know. They love the show and
Speaker 3: mainly for the ball knowledge and the draft takes. Yep,
Speaker 3: that's that is definitely what we do, Destiny, and that's
Speaker 3: why they like the off season shows the best.
Speaker 2: I like the officer. It isn't I've always said this
Speaker 2: is an off season show.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we we this is our wheelhouse. So this is
Speaker 3: another question about offensive coordinator. And you know what who
Speaker 3: Mike Rabel's offensive coordinator would be. And we've we've talked
Speaker 3: about the names, but I just want to say, like
Speaker 3: on the record, I would be absolutely shocked if it's
Speaker 3: not Josh McDaniels. And this is just my opinion, just
Speaker 3: to just my opinion, my hunch. I would be absolutely
Speaker 3: shocked if it wasn't Josh McDaniels. And the main reason
Speaker 3: why I'd be absolutely shocked is that it's very, very
Speaker 3: crystal clear to me that Robert Kraft wants to be comfortable.
Speaker 3: He wants to hire guys he knows, he wants to
Speaker 3: be around people he knows. Mike Frable is the guy
Speaker 3: that he knows. My guess is that he's going to
Speaker 3: real hard for Josh McDaniels to be the offensive coordinator.
Speaker 3: So if it's not gonna be McDaniels, who at one
Speaker 3: point in time they thought might be the successor to
Speaker 3: Bill Belichick, So now you have Mike Rabel, who rocks
Speaker 3: and they love. You have Josh McDaniels, who they love,
Speaker 3: that's got the crafts feel nice, right, They feel like
Speaker 3: they've got two guys that can really get behind. If
Speaker 3: it's not Josh McDaniels, it's gonna have to be a
Speaker 3: really compelling pitch to Mike by Mike Vrabel as to
Speaker 3: why Tommy Reese is a better choice, Pep Hamilton's a
Speaker 3: better choice or whoever else.
Speaker 2: It ends up being Yeah, no, he's gonna have to
Speaker 2: ask why you do the interview. That's why you do
Speaker 2: the process. This is what they didn't do last year.
Speaker 3: So here's a question from Brian. Are along the same
Speaker 3: lines of offensive coordinator? And I think this is a
Speaker 3: really important point as we turn the page, and I
Speaker 3: say this tongue in cheek. But tomorrow, after Abel interviews
Speaker 3: in Friday morning, when chefter breaks that he's the next
Speaker 3: head coach of the Patriots, we are gonna start talking
Speaker 3: about coordinators, right, that's gonna be the conversation. He brings
Speaker 3: up Mike Laflor So that's Matt's brother, who is right
Speaker 3: now is the offensive coordinator for the Los Angeles Rams.
Speaker 2: Don't hate that.
Speaker 3: So the problem is there's a problem. The problem is
Speaker 3: that in the NFL, in order to make a lateral
Speaker 3: move when you're under contract, you need to get permission
Speaker 3: from the team that you're currently employed by to make
Speaker 3: that move. So it's not looked at as a promotion
Speaker 3: in the eyes of the league, even if you aren't
Speaker 3: calling plays.
Speaker 2: So what if they were to offer him like pass
Speaker 2: game coordinator. As far as I'm I know, well, he's
Speaker 2: already the offensive coordinators. That would be a devotion. Oh,
Speaker 2: you're right, you're right, right, even if they offered him
Speaker 2: an associate head coach title. Yeah, it's still a lateral
Speaker 2: move in the eye as the NFL. You're either an
Speaker 2: assistant coach slash coordinator or your head That's probably good.
Speaker 2: It's a good way to stop people from gaming the
Speaker 2: system so that it doesn't help the Patriots here, But
Speaker 2: it's right.
Speaker 3: The issue that I have with the rule, and I
Speaker 3: brought this up yesterday on PU The issue that I
Speaker 3: have with the rule is that there is a major
Speaker 3: difference in your developmental track as a coach between being
Speaker 3: a play caller and not being a play caller. So
Speaker 3: Michael Floor does not call play Sean McVay calls the
Speaker 3: plays and with the ramps.
Speaker 2: In my opinion, Mike Lafloor should be able to take
Speaker 2: a play caller role that should be considered in the
Speaker 2: eyes of the league, that should be considered a promotion.
Speaker 2: Is there any reporting as to whether or not McVeigh
Speaker 2: would let him go for that opportunity. There isn't because
Speaker 2: at a certain point, like he's got to go to
Speaker 2: McVeigh and be like, hey, this is a better opportunity
Speaker 2: for me. You gotta let me because nobody's gonna hire
Speaker 2: him as a head coach without that play calling experience
Speaker 2: or not for a while. So if he wants to
Speaker 2: be a head coach, he needs to get out of there.
Speaker 2: Like does he go to McVeigh and put pressure on McVeigh, like, hey,
Speaker 2: you need to let me get this opportunity. It's possible,
Speaker 2: but from what I understand about the process, it's tricky
Speaker 2: because he's under contract, which means he needs to buy
Speaker 2: out his contract. That it just there's a lot of
Speaker 2: layers that present, in a lot of roadblocks that present
Speaker 2: to prevent lateral movement in the NFL. If he wasn't
Speaker 2: under contract, if his contract has expired and he's a
Speaker 2: true coaching free agent, for example, like Patrick Graham with
Speaker 2: the Vegas Raiders, then that's different. Like Patrick Graham can
Speaker 2: go and be a defensive coordinator someplace else. That's not
Speaker 2: the case if you're currently employed, like my guy is
Speaker 2: Stenovich with the Green Bay Packers. He is an offensive coordinator.
Speaker 2: He's already got the title. He's not the play caller.
Speaker 2: There's nothing he can do. I think one of these
Speaker 2: guys would put the pressure on to try to get
Speaker 2: to better opportunity. Yeah, there's a million of them. Frank
Speaker 2: Smith in Miami is another one that is a hot
Speaker 2: head coaching name we go. You're making my argument for
Speaker 2: me about vraybe.
Speaker 3: Frank Smith, though already is the offensive coordinator by title
Speaker 3: with the Miami Dolphins, so he cannot make a lateral
Speaker 3: move even though Mike McDaniel runs the offense and calls.
Speaker 2: The plays too bad, Dolphins and fire Mike McDaniel. There
Speaker 2: you go. Uh. Mike Kafka with the New York Giants, Yeah,
Speaker 2: they were really tied to him at one point a
Speaker 2: couple of years ago. Weren't they last year with the
Speaker 2: search potentially, But Mike Kafka got a promotion on Dables
Speaker 2: staff to give him the title. And part of that
Speaker 2: is just to make sure that the only jump he's
Speaker 2: going to make is the head coach. So that's that's
Speaker 2: where it gets tricky with a lot of those types
Speaker 2: of guys. All right, a couple of emails here about
Speaker 2: the just the process, and I understand you know this
Speaker 2: is from Brandon. Uh, he is concerned that they're not
Speaker 2: doing a thorough search and he said, for all the
Speaker 2: talk from Mark ak about how they would do with
Speaker 2: thorough search and whatever it takes to get back to
Speaker 2: being good, I agree with Albert Breer's comments from last
Speaker 2: night that it's looking like a sham sham strong. Albert
Speaker 2: Breer has been hard on them though for the Pep
Speaker 2: Hamilton and Byron Leftwich interviews to check off the rule,
Speaker 2: and I I understand where he's coming from. My pushback
Speaker 2: with the the thorough search is one, it's a private business,
Speaker 2: so at the end of the day, it's their business,
Speaker 2: it's their football team. Whoever they think is the best
Speaker 2: guy for the job is the best guy for the job. Secondly,
Speaker 2: I'd be more frustrated with that aspect of it if
Speaker 2: Mike Rabel wasn't qualified, like if it was dry Ao
Speaker 2: two point zero, I'd be more frustrated with that part
Speaker 2: of it. But they're the reason why the crafts, in
Speaker 2: my opinion, are moving so quickly is because Mike Rabel
Speaker 2: is a coaching free agent. He can get hired at
Speaker 2: any time by anybody and toom Brady and so if
Speaker 2: they don't move fast, then he's gonna get hired by
Speaker 2: somebody else. So I here's my thing about like the
Speaker 2: thoroughness of the search, right, Yeah, who else do you
Speaker 2: want them to talk to? Not you? Just like in general,
Speaker 2: like if you're worry they're not talking about people? Yeah,
Speaker 2: who else you want them to talk to? I think
Speaker 2: there's the only other guy really for me is Flores.
Speaker 2: And they'd have to wait two weeks to do it,
Speaker 2: and I get that. Yeah, what I I hope they
Speaker 2: are like Rabel and Ben Johnson. This is a unique
Speaker 2: psych with Rabel and Ben Johnson. I think are clearly
Speaker 2: the two best candidates available right now. I put Flores
Speaker 2: on their tier, but they can't talk to him right now.
Speaker 2: Those are clearly the two best candidates. I want those
Speaker 2: two guys vetted thoroughly. I want no stone unturned in
Speaker 2: those interviews, and I want an open mind going into
Speaker 2: those interviews between those two. That's what I hope we get.
Speaker 2: Who else is like Aaron Glenn? All right, I'll give
Speaker 2: you Aaron Glenn too. I don't think they want a
Speaker 2: first time defensive head coach, But like I wouldn't mind
Speaker 2: if they talk to Aaron Glenn. I don't need them
Speaker 2: to talk to I don't need them to talk to
Speaker 2: Doug Peterson. Who are some of the other names that
Speaker 2: are out there. I don't need Liam Cohone. I don't
Speaker 2: I think leeam no Brady, all right, you talk to
Speaker 2: Joe Brady to figure out what's going on with Josh Allen.
Speaker 2: But like, I'm good there, Liam Cohne to me, and
Speaker 2: I like Liam Cohne, I do. And he's a local
Speaker 2: guy and all that. He's still probably your away. I
Speaker 2: think if you hire him, it's too early. Maybe he's
Speaker 2: not quite as ross Jerd Mayo, but he's like I've
Speaker 2: kind of dumped on Ben Johnson in the.
Speaker 3: WELO bounced from LA to Kentucky, back to LA down
Speaker 3: to Tampa.
Speaker 2: Like he's you skipped like four or five trips between
Speaker 2: LA and Kentucky.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he's got to kind of solidify some consistency.
Speaker 2: I like, as much as I pushed back on Ben Johnson,
Speaker 2: the whole concept of the first year head coach, as
Speaker 2: far as the rookie head coach goes, Ben Johnson's relatively
Speaker 2: well prepared. I'm not picking on Ben Johnson specifically, it's
Speaker 2: the concept of a rookie head coach. William Cohane to
Speaker 2: me is like even for a rookie head coach would
Speaker 2: be raw. Yeah, I would be early, But like, I
Speaker 2: don't need them. I know some people talk about like
Speaker 2: Dan Lanning. Dan Lane's going to tell you what worked
Speaker 2: at Oregon. Dan Lane is going to tell you what
Speaker 2: worked at the college level. It'd be fascinating. I don't
Speaker 2: know how much that applies to the New England Patriots.
Speaker 3: So the only reason in my opinion that you interview
Speaker 3: some of these other guys I said at the top
Speaker 3: of the show, I don't need them to interview fifteen guys.
Speaker 2: Like the Jets are putting in a request for half
Speaker 2: the league. They talked to Adam Gase, yet they talked
Speaker 2: to Rex Ryan. That's why what I'm saying, Adam gas
Speaker 2: I talked.
Speaker 3: To the entire NFL world, is interviewing with the Jets.
Speaker 3: I don't need the Patriots to do that. The argument,
Speaker 3: and you just made it for Joe Brady. The argument
Speaker 3: is is that you want to hear different perspectives and
Speaker 3: different philosophies, so that way there you can kind of
Speaker 3: settle on what the direction is that you want to
Speaker 3: go in. So if Joe Brady and Liam Cohene, they
Speaker 3: come in a lot of these interviews, especially the in
Speaker 3: person ones. They give them a little project. They'll say, Okay,
Speaker 3: Joe Brady, like, what would you do with Drake may
Speaker 3: right right now, Joe Brady has it already done, right
Speaker 3: he would just put on the buffalo yeah, and be
Speaker 3: like this is what we would do, but that that's
Speaker 3: sort of what would go into it. And now once
Speaker 3: you make your higher you can say to them, you know,
Speaker 3: we really kind of like this philosophy of pushing the
Speaker 3: offense in this sort of direction and get the head
Speaker 3: coach's perspective and all that kind of stuff, so that
Speaker 3: it's really about hearing out the different philosophy.
Speaker 2: Or the other thing you can do with it is
Speaker 2: And we saw them do this at a lower level
Speaker 2: in the past. Like you talk to guys who you're
Speaker 2: probably not gonna hires head coach, we might hire his
Speaker 2: offensive coordinator because that we have in the building. You
Speaker 2: start to build that rapport. Now when you get to
Speaker 2: the offensive coordinator interviews, you're already kind of a step ahead.
Speaker 2: Like Pep Hamilton, think that that Pep Hamilton is on
Speaker 2: that track. Potentially I wouldn't and I know you don't
Speaker 2: love the job he did, and I get it. I
Speaker 2: wouldn't roll out Byron left Wich in that regard either,
Speaker 2: just because I don't know how this works with Brady
Speaker 2: being an owner of the Raiders, but like he was
Speaker 2: Brady's OC for multiple years, Brady and Rabel have this relationship. Yep.
Speaker 2: Does Rabel go to Brady and say what do you
Speaker 2: think of Byron left Witch? But can he do that?
Speaker 2: Is that tampering because Brady's with the Raiders, Like, I
Speaker 2: don't know how that thing works, but there is a
Speaker 2: connection there.
Speaker 3: So yeah, and again, I just don't really lose a
Speaker 3: lot of sleep over the fact that they're not interviewing
Speaker 3: a dozen candidates for this position.
Speaker 2: And I just want them to as long as they
Speaker 2: have an open mind with Ben Johnson.
Speaker 3: Yeah, the other thing, and then I will take these
Speaker 3: calls and wrap it up. The other thing, I would
Speaker 3: just say about the breadth of this search and all
Speaker 3: that kind of stuff. I was skeptical to put them
Speaker 3: in this category because of the timeline, like I thought,
Speaker 3: and I still do. If Buffalo, if Philadelphia, if they're
Speaker 3: one and done in the playoffs this year and one
Speaker 3: of those two head coaches get fired as a result,
Speaker 3: they're gonna be the top destination. But as of right now,
Speaker 3: the six teams that have let their head coaches go
Speaker 3: on Black Monday. As of right now, the New England
Speaker 3: Patriots are the top destination on the board. So as
Speaker 3: a result, they have their pick. You don't need contingency planning.
Speaker 3: They don't need contingency plans. You're interviewing guys like Drew Petsing,
Speaker 3: Liam Cohne. Those types of guys are getting interviews as
Speaker 3: playing BCD.
Speaker 2: Right, it's the rookie guys being interviewed in case of
Speaker 2: Louise Johnson, the other guys being interviewed in case lose
Speaker 2: you lose out on Raybel Yeah, yeah, no, I'm with
Speaker 2: you on that.
Speaker 3: It surprises me to an extent that the Patriots are
Speaker 3: the number one destination.
Speaker 2: Kay.
Speaker 3: Maybe I'm just like trying to like tech myself in
Speaker 3: that situation.
Speaker 2: I think some of it might be I mean, the
Speaker 2: other destinations, some of it might be my default. The
Speaker 2: other destinations are bad. Yeah, it's really the only other
Speaker 2: one that has a case of Chicago. Chicago's not terrible,
Speaker 2: it's more just a track record of ownership there. But yeah,
Speaker 2: I mean the Jets are that's brutal the Saints might
Speaker 2: have to hire you, Yeah, dumpster because nobody wants to
Speaker 2: go there. Yeah, so, and then you can do your
Speaker 2: whole thing about the Saints salary cap.
Speaker 3: Yeah in Vegas also kind of a dumpster fire. So uh,
Speaker 3: the Patriots Vegas.
Speaker 2: Should be better option if they have a top two pick.
Speaker 3: The Patriots have a quarterback, they have cap space, and
Speaker 3: they have a top draft pick. So you're coming in
Speaker 3: and you it's you have the canvas, right, It's the
Speaker 3: world is your oyster here in New England. And even
Speaker 3: though here locally the Crafts have taken on a lot
Speaker 3: of water in the last four or five years, I
Speaker 3: think I still think across the league they are viewed
Speaker 3: as good owners. And I also had stable owners because
Speaker 3: the team's not going any Look, it.
Speaker 2: Would have to go so bad for them to one
Speaker 2: and done two coaches in a row. Right, So you
Speaker 2: may be think you're gonna get a little longer leash.
Speaker 3: All right, let's get back to the phones and then
Speaker 3: we'll call it a day. Here Don is in Philadelphia.
Speaker 3: What's up, don O?
Speaker 8: Hey, guys, I just wanted to talk roster construction really quick.
Speaker 8: I'm not sure the average fan really realizes how much
Speaker 8: cap space one hundred and thirty million dollars is.
Speaker 2: I think you're right.
Speaker 8: You can get you can get top tier players that
Speaker 8: are starting. I mean the way you structure those contracts.
Speaker 8: You know, I know the hot name being thrown out
Speaker 8: is always T Higgins, and I know Alex loves the
Speaker 8: idea of trading for a DK mattcat. My my thought
Speaker 8: is is you know why, you know, spend all this
Speaker 8: money if you can get a Byron Murphy, get a
Speaker 8: DJ Reid, get a T. Higgins, and then you could
Speaker 8: draft best player available. You know, I think Calvin Banks
Speaker 8: is good, but if you can get app Bill Carter,
Speaker 8: I think his feeling is much higher.
Speaker 5: You know what?
Speaker 7: And also what is your thought?
Speaker 8: Would you trade a second round pick for a DK Metcalf?
Speaker 2: But I'll leave it you guys, than no problem. Don
Speaker 2: gonna take care of the dog. Yeah. So I agree
Speaker 2: with most of what he said. The only little thing
Speaker 2: there is it's great in theory to say we're gonna
Speaker 2: spend money on a starting corner, starting wide receiver, starting tackle,
Speaker 2: starting edge rusher. Right, yeah, Well, all those players have
Speaker 2: to be available for you to spend money on. You
Speaker 2: can't just create players out of thin air. I think
Speaker 2: at most of the positions you can do it. If
Speaker 2: not through outright free agency trading for pre agents, guys
Speaker 2: that are entering their last year. I tackle to me,
Speaker 2: the market does not look great. There's Cam Robinson and
Speaker 2: maybe you throw a bag at Cam Robinson and maybe
Speaker 2: I would be shocked if he gets out of Baltimore
Speaker 2: as well. Right, so like maybe you throw a bag
Speaker 2: at Ronnie Stanley. And that's the answer to his point
Speaker 2: about like you can draft the best player available. Well,
Speaker 2: if you can take care of every position but one,
Speaker 2: then you can draft that. And I think between some
Speaker 2: of like the tackling edge rusher guys, it is close.
Speaker 2: So I I still think if you want that premier
Speaker 2: tackle like Cam Robinson's a good tackle, if you want
Speaker 2: your franchise left tackle, set it and forget it ten years,
Speaker 2: you probably need to go to the draft. But no,
Speaker 2: they they should be. They need to bring in multiple
Speaker 2: starters through the veteran market. I you know, corner, we've talked.
Speaker 2: You don't need a stud corner. It'd be great, but
Speaker 2: you can get away with like DJ Reads a little
Speaker 2: small for me, but like a Carlton Davis, this guy,
Speaker 2: I've talked about a couple of decent pass rushers out
Speaker 2: there that'll be available. I'm a second for DK Metcalf.
Speaker 2: I would do that. I'm done thirty eight for DK Metcalf.
Speaker 2: You're not going to draft a receiver veteran DK Metcalf
Speaker 2: at thirty eight, and you probably need to be using
Speaker 2: your top pick on the trenches one side of the
Speaker 2: ball or the other. So it's probably the Highester taking receiver.
Speaker 2: I'd try easily trade that pick for DK Metcalf. You
Speaker 2: give him like thirty million a year. DJ Reid's gonna
Speaker 2: cost you what like fifteen? Or Carlton Davis, Whoever's gonna
Speaker 2: cost you fifteen? Pass rusher is probably another fifteen. The
Speaker 2: money is not the problem. You're only half You're less
Speaker 2: than half through your salary cap at that.
Speaker 3: The money is not the problem. The problem is is
Speaker 3: that it's about the talent on the board. And yes,
Speaker 3: you if theoretically could sign a Cam Robbinson, could sign
Speaker 3: a Carlton Davis.
Speaker 2: But the question is are they good enough? Right?
Speaker 4: Like?
Speaker 2: Are they truly good enough player? If you if you
Speaker 2: put all the moves together correctly, I think you know
Speaker 2: you're not building super bowl roster this offseason. I don't
Speaker 2: think you're gonna get the players good enough to make
Speaker 2: you like a super Bowl team this offseason, right, Can
Speaker 2: they put you in the right direction? Can you be
Speaker 2: one of these teams? You were in the mix for
Speaker 2: the playoffs the last week? Yeah, I think the talent's
Speaker 2: there for that.
Speaker 3: So you what you worry about though, is like in
Speaker 3: twenty one, they got one really true impact player in
Speaker 3: Matthew g Yeah, Hunter Henry is a really solid title.
Speaker 2: I'll give him that one. Kendrick Bourne would have been
Speaker 2: good if they didn't screw with him. Sure, but like
Speaker 2: Kendrick Bourne, Nelson Agalore, John new Smith, do not put
Speaker 2: Kendrick burn group is Agalre and Smith. Those are different.
Speaker 3: Okay, Also, as we now know, like those guys are
Speaker 3: good players, but they're not great players.
Speaker 2: Well as we now know, John new Smith's not a
Speaker 2: bad player, they just didn't use them. But my point
Speaker 2: being is that you're not getting the great players in
Speaker 2: free agent. No, you're not. That has to come through
Speaker 2: the draft. You're supporting it through free agent or yeah,
Speaker 2: veteran market. You got to be able to draft well
Speaker 2: Robertkraft talked about this. He was exactly right. You can't
Speaker 2: have sustained success in the NFL, and look what happened
Speaker 2: they did that In the next few years. They didn't
Speaker 2: really add anybody in free agency, they had bad drafts,
Speaker 2: So one offseason is not going to fix it. You
Speaker 2: can absolutely get yourself going in the right direction, though,
Speaker 2: and I think for that first step, the talent is available.
Speaker 2: Between the draft and the veteran market, they can make
Speaker 2: the moves they need to make to get on that
Speaker 2: first step. They then got to followed up next offseason
Speaker 2: the off season after that, which is what they didn't
Speaker 2: do last time. But I do think the talent's there
Speaker 2: to do more or less what they need to do
Speaker 2: to have like what is reasonably a successful offseason this offseason.
Speaker 3: So they need to in my opinion, we always say
Speaker 3: that there's no such thing as best player available. Yeah,
Speaker 3: but there's best player available at premium position, best player
Speaker 3: available for the football team. So I don't necessarily care
Speaker 3: about targetting a tackle, targeting a receiver. I'd be open
Speaker 3: to Abdull Carter as much as I'm open to Calvin Banks.
Speaker 3: If I'm the Patriots, I'm approaching it the same way.
Speaker 3: I'm just not drafting guards and running backs and kickers
Speaker 3: and punters, and like you gotta it's gotta be a
Speaker 3: premium position. It's got to be it's got to be
Speaker 3: a receiver, okay, but a tackle, a pass rusher, or
Speaker 3: a corner. The overall I'm not drafting defensive tackles either.
Speaker 2: I'm with you, Almadam, Mason Graham. The overall philosophy stands. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but you can only pick the players that are on
Speaker 2: the board. It's Tet McMillan good enough to be worthy.
Speaker 2: That's that's a bigger conversation that we don't have time for. Well, no,
Speaker 2: we we have a lot of time over the coming weeks.
Speaker 2: But my point is, like you have to if you
Speaker 2: if you know Teed McMillan is not worth that pick,
Speaker 2: and you know you need to add a receiver, you
Speaker 2: have to be very aggressive in the vet whether it's Higgins,
Speaker 2: whether it's Metcalfe, with it somebody else, not Tyreek Hill, though,
Speaker 2: you have to be very aggressive to the veteran market.
Speaker 2: You want them to add tyreek Kill. I'm just laughing.
Speaker 2: I'm out on time, Okay.
Speaker 3: We gotta wrap uh the playbook is coming up at
Speaker 3: two thirties. If you didn't get your calls and your
Speaker 3: emails in, you can hang on and John Rocca will
Speaker 3: be along here shortly to take those.
Speaker 2: But we're already over, so we got to go. I
Speaker 2: hope we lived up to the billing I said before
Speaker 2: the show on Twitter is like this is gonna be
Speaker 2: in all time er. I hope we lived up there
Speaker 2: and we did yell at each other, and that show
Speaker 2: honestly felt like it was fifteen minutes. All right, Well,
Speaker 2: we'll be back next week.
Speaker 3: This is our new time slot for the off season,
Speaker 3: so noon to two on Wednesdays for the duration of
Speaker 3: the off season.
Speaker 2: For like two weeks, and then we'll have to move
Speaker 2: it further to senior ball and then the comment but
Speaker 2: this will be there.
Speaker 3: This is this is supposed to be the permanent time slot.
Speaker 3: So we'll see you guys next week at this time.
Speaker 2: And I think we might have a Patriots head coach
Speaker 2: by that point, so we'll talk about it then.
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